1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene, along 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: with Jonathan Ferrell and Lisa Brownwitz Jaily. We bring you 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: insight from the best and economics, finance, investment, and international relations. 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcast, Suncloud, Bloomberg dot com, 5 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: and of course on the Bloomberg terminal. Right now we 6 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: must go to James eighty whose age listening to our 7 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: analysis with Everydeen Standard this morning, James, Ah, these central 8 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: banks have zero degree of freedom. They may even have 9 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: negative degrees of freedom. Do you really care or when 10 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: you invest? Do you really invest off what central bank 11 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: headlines say? Morning Tom, That's not really what the headlines say. 12 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: I think the headlines can often miss, you know, the detail, 13 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: the new on the reality of the policy. See. Unfortunately, 14 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: you can't invest in the markets that I invest in. 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: You probably can't invest in any markets without considering to 16 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: a pretty significant degree what what central banks are up to. 17 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: But I agree with you, they have no degrees of freedom. Really, 18 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: they've dugged themselves a massive trap and they're now stuck 19 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: in that trap. And there is no central bank that's 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: suffering that problem to a greater degree than the ECB. 21 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 1: Do you think they're stuck down here for the whole 22 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: of the cycle, James, and beyond. There's literally the ECBs 23 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: problem is that it's trying to use cyclical policy to 24 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: deal with massive, massive structural issues. There is there's no 25 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: economic theory that says that monetary policy has anything more 26 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: than inter temporal effects. And even fiscal policy to the 27 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: extent that it's current spending and not investment, only has 28 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: a temporal effect. It brings forward to demand from the 29 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: future to today. It does not in and of itself 30 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: create demand through the cycle. So ECB is absolutely trapped. 31 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: Its job really at the moment seem to be just 32 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: keeping financial markets from pricing a much more terrifying future 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: and hoping that that politicians can can get their act together. 34 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: But I see no evidence so that's occurring on I'm 35 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: just working through this statement right now and I'm trying 36 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: to find the big change, and James, I've got to 37 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: be honest with you, it just feels like a bunch 38 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: of twigs around the margins. As far as the forward 39 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: guidance is concerned. This market market participants and the ECB 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: is going to be well aware of this. They want 41 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: to understand what happens after the emergency ends, what happens 42 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: with PET, what happens to all that flexibility and to 43 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: the hawks push back significantly enough that in the asset 44 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: purchased program, beyond the crisis, beyond the emergency, we lose 45 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: some flexibility. You're hearing anything about that this morning, and 46 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: not in the market doesn't really care about the underlying 47 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: economic reality. To be honest, the market wants some certainty 48 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: around asset purchases because it makes for a very asymmetric 49 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: market environment and one in which that you can disregard 50 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: actual fundamentals and risk and valuation. And by the is 51 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: on the basis that syndram case you back, that's what 52 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: the market would like to see. Obviously, the ECB Government 53 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: Council has significant disagreement amongst these members, such that there 54 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: may come a time in the future where that disagreement 55 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: really does impinge on their policy setting. I just don't 56 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: think we're there yet, because we're still relatively early in 57 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: the European recovery, and obviously with the delta variant that 58 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: there are threats to that recovery that are already emerging. 59 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: But you know, I'm minded to quote the Bgs or 60 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: boy Zone if you're of a younger generation and say 61 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: it's only words. I don't know if Tom knows who 62 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: boy Zone are? The Bejs though, do you know boys are? Tom? No? No, No, 63 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: I don't think he's missing out. They did a cover 64 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: of the Begs. Tom awhile ago, Kelly go on, I'm 65 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: going to plead the fifth on whether or not I 66 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: know who that is. Just carry on, James, that was 67 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: a conversation killer. Don't worry, Kelly's going to pick this up. 68 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: I want to know when you think the market is 69 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: going to get some answers. I was. I was speaking 70 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: with economist over at Berkeleys yesterday saying this meeting maybe 71 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: was overhyped and that yes, we were going to get, 72 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: as John says, some tweaks around the margins. But the 73 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: real answers to what the market's looking for is not 74 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: going to be coming until September or December. When do 75 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: you expect us to have a clue what the post 76 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: PEP world is going to look like? Wow? I mean, 77 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: that's that's really difficult to say, because obviously it will 78 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: depend on economic outturns, and honestly, it will depend on 79 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: what's happening outside the Eurozone as much as it is 80 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: what's happening within the Eurozone. Again, I don't expect to 81 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: see any material shift in the structural outlook for the Eurozone. 82 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 1: But of course bond markets are highly correlated. So in 83 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: this world where the ECB is managing monetary conditions to 84 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: whatever that, that actually means that there is always the 85 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: the real danger that typening from the Federal Reserve can 86 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: lead to an unwarranted, unwanted typing from the ECB, and 87 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: they will seek to offset that almost regardless of the 88 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: domestic economic data. That is to say, again the way 89 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: central banks run their mandates, they're not really two concerned 90 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: until they get to the steady states as they see it, 91 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: which is to say that the non accelerating inflation, right 92 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: of unemployment the NERU. When the economy has reached its capacity, 93 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: then they care about title policy. Up until that point, 94 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: they have absolutely no interest in making marginal adjustments to 95 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: the policy as they get there. So ECB, until it 96 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: gets there, it's not going to want to tighten policy, 97 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: and it may have to loosen policy to offset a 98 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: titan which is coming externally. James early Pine or you 99 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: watch this news conference. In thirty five minutes, I've got 100 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: a meeting, and there we go. Message John James, how 101 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: unfortunate it's going to see you James at Aberdeen Standardestment 102 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: Senior investment Manager. We kept a secret from Julia Cornado 103 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: because we knew that if she knew I was going here, 104 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: she wouldn't have an excuse. You do not have to 105 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: come on, ye, Dr Cornado joins us to mercro policy perspectives. Julia. 106 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: This came up as I was having a beverage of 107 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: my choice and someone said to me, Okay, I get 108 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: I s l M going back to Hicks and the 109 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: real economy and the money economy. And now none of 110 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: this theory is working right now given the fiscal stimulus 111 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: and the insanity of his natural disaster that we're all living. 112 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: But then it folds over into aggregate supply and aggregate demand. 113 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: Dr Coronado, could you explain to our audience how these 114 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: dynamics affect them when we go from Central Bank mumbo 115 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: jumbo like I s l M over to America's aggregate 116 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: supply and America's aggregate demand. Yeah, and those dynamics are 117 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: incredibly complex even in normal times, let alone when we're 118 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: sort of rebooting the global economy and dealing with a 119 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: lot of liquidity slashing around. So you know, for example, 120 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: even when the cycle was running very strong, uh last 121 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: before the pandemic, we didn't see any inflationary pressures. Why well, 122 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: you know, we had wage gains that were solid but 123 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: not really accelerating. We saw consumers that were pretty price sensitive. 124 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: They were very budget conscious, even as they were feeling 125 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: good about the world. We think an older economy, consumers 126 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: that have been through multiple crises just are more cautious. 127 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: And that's one of the big questions going forward, is 128 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: to consumers return to those cautious, price sensitive, budget conscious 129 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: ways that limit how much of these supply chain bottleneck 130 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: price pressures can be passed through at the retail level. 131 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: Their lines on the page, my eyes used to glaze over. 132 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: Cornado's nailed this stuff in the school, and there were 133 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: shifts along the line and the great debate where these 134 00:07:54,240 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: two strange words endogenous within the system and exogenous outside 135 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: the system. Is a pandemic endogenous or exogenous? I know 136 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: that it's exogenous. I mean, this couldn't be a better 137 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: example of sort of an exogenous shock in the sense 138 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: of you know, without getting into the origins of the virus. 139 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: You know, for the most of the people in the economy, 140 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: most of the businesses and consumers, this just hit us 141 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: like lightning. Uh. You know, early we weren't sort of 142 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: preparing for a pandemic. We were preparing for another year 143 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: that looked sort of like so uh. It really caught 144 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: everybody off guard. And then the complicating factor, Tom, is 145 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: that many businesses saw the crisis and sort of pulled 146 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: out the crisis playbook. Okay, I know that demand is 147 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: going to collapse. I'm going to sell off my inventories. 148 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to ramp down operations uh and hoarde liquidity 149 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: and just get real cautious. But then we went into 150 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: a good sending boom supported by the fiscal stimulus, and 151 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: you know, that caught homebuilders off guard, and it caught 152 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, goods sellers and producers off guard. 153 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: And now they're scrambling to catch up. Uh. And that, 154 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: and and therein lies a lot of the frictions that 155 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: you hear uh la Guard and Powell talking about. They 156 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: expect these things to be transitory because you know, if 157 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: anything we learned during the pandemic, and we expect it 158 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: to be true after the pandemic or as we move forward. 159 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: We're pretty resilient and creative and you know, we find 160 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: ways to get things done even through these challenges. So, um, 161 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: it's not going to happen overnight, but we do expect 162 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: ship manufacturing to ramp up and some of those bottlenecks 163 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: to ease, and then competition is going to play its 164 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: role and drive prices back down in fault. To me, 165 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: what Dr Cornato says there is the absolute foundational thing 166 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: that corporations adept. Yes, they're mailieable and they make decisions 167 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: as the information is given to them. Yeah, we're seeing 168 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: that in the earnings that are just being reported this period. Uh, 169 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: Julian love to get your thoughts. We just heard from 170 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: Christine Lagard this morning. She is she had some comments. Uh, 171 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: you know, I guess the takeaway is lower for longer 172 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: or somewhat even suggests lower forever. Given what we heard 173 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 1: from Christine Lagarde, what do you expect to hear from 174 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: this Federal Reserve coming up for the July meeting? Well, look, 175 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: I think the FED is in a different place than 176 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: the ECB uh, and so I do think that Chair 177 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: Power will confirm that the discussions around the modalities and 178 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 1: specifics of tapering got underway. I think they're going to 179 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: get underway in July. They're going to get briefings from 180 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: the New York Said staff and the Board staff on 181 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: different choices that they need to make and what are 182 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: the pros and cons, and they're going to have a 183 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: detailed discussion, and I think he'll confirm that. Um I think, 184 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: you know, in in the next months, maybe with the 185 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: July minutes, maybe at Jackson Hall. You know, last cycle, 186 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 1: we got this kind of blueprint, sort of a statement 187 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: of normalization principles and plans, and so that's one question 188 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: where we get kind of a blueprint from the Fed. 189 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: These are the things that we've a creek agreed upon. 190 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: For example, we expect to taper and end bond purchases 191 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: before raising rates is one thing they said last time. 192 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: I would expect them to reiterate that this time. They 193 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: may sort of specify that they're going to have an 194 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: even handed, uh sort of tapering between treasuries and mbs. 195 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if they get that specific, but something 196 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: that provides this guidance along those lines to resolve some 197 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: of the debates we've been having in markets and provide 198 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: some clarity. That's that's what share Powell wants to do 199 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: is lay the groundwork for markets steadily, methodically, well ahead 200 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: of the actual announcement, which we still expect to come 201 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: in December maybe November. Of the data run well, but 202 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: we don't think they're in a hurry. But at the 203 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: same so it's kind of start the signaling process, start 204 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: the planning process, and give plenty of runway to market 205 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: to adapt to the fact that the set is going 206 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: to be withdrawing some of the liquidity support it's been 207 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: pumping in over the last year plus. You know, it's interesting. 208 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: We were just talking to a guest earlier, Julia, and 209 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: just kind of he was bemoaning the fact that in Europe, yes, 210 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 1: they have lots of monetary easing in support, but really uh, 211 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 1: too little and too late on the fiscal statements side. 212 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: That's certainly not the case here in the US. Plenty 213 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: of students has been pumped into this economy. How critical 214 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 1: is it to get even more well. I think that 215 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: there's what we're talking about now on fiscal policy in 216 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: terms of the infrastructure packages is very different from what 217 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: we put in over the last year, which was multiple 218 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: injections of big liquidity directly to consumers and businesses. They 219 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: were one time payments to get people through the pandemic, 220 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: to build a bridge of financing effectively, which it did 221 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: very well, maybe maybe too well in some in some cases, 222 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: but definitely got a lot of people through. What we're 223 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 1: talking about now is much more structural. We're talking about 224 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: a ten year spending plan of building capacity in certain 225 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: areas that we think we need repairing, you know, physical infrastructure, 226 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: addressing certain um sort of structural shortcomings in our economy 227 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: and again over a longer horizon, and by the way, 228 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: mostly paid for. That does not fall under the category 229 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: of fiscal stimulus. That's more of a you know, retooling 230 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: and uh structural adjustment in uh certain areas of the economy. 231 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: You know, I do think it won't fully be paid for, 232 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: so there will be some fistical tail winds, but you know, 233 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: in terms of the dynamics of that, the timing of that, 234 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: it's not at all like what we what we are 235 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: emerging from now. Okay, let's leave with her Julia Cornodle 236 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: think as much particularly clinic early on he was knighted 237 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: or at least made a lord by Cleveland at one 238 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: point after staring down a utility with some great threat 239 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: to his life. He's going on to do all sorts 240 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: of things within the American dialogue. And this is a 241 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: guy out of Cleveland who became identified with Cleveland and 242 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: struggling Cleveland and helped form Cleveland and what it is 243 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: today with a pretty earnest and good recovery. Dennis Casinis 244 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: joins us now. At one point, the youngest mayor I 245 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: think on planet Earth joins us in celebration of the 246 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: light the division of light in power. Mayeric Ca Sinis. 247 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us at today. What 248 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: I love about your book is you do the modern thing. 249 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: You have these wicked short chapters of six or seven pages, 250 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: which was the hardest chapter to write, of some sixties 251 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: seventy of them in your book. The first chapter I 252 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: started that book in November of what what You're what 253 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: you're reading with the reader will see represents the seventh 254 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: draft the book that was written over a period of 255 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: forty years. It's yucks now and of course so many 256 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: people know you from your TV efforts as well. It 257 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: was deadly serious back then in Cleveland, and that you 258 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: were knighted by Cleveland later for staring down the public 259 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: utilities of trying to think about the city. When did 260 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: you know the tide had turned in your belief in 261 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: Cleveland and the ownership of the utilities would be brought 262 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: out Fifteen years after I left office Cleveland announcement expanding 263 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: a public power system that I saved. And it took 264 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: the people of Cleveland about fifteen years to figure out 265 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: what happened, and that is that if I had sold 266 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: the municipal electric system, it would have cost them hundreds 267 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: of millions of dollars and increased taxes and utility rates. 268 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: So yeah, it took fifteen years, but if fortunately I 269 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: had time to spare. So give us a sense, uh, Dennis, 270 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: about really what was the heart of the matter of 271 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: the initial uh challenge for you with this utility. Just 272 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: give our our our listeners kind of a sense of 273 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: time and space. Sure, of course, Cleveland and the Cleveland 274 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: Electric Illuminating Company, I had to competing electric systems that 275 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: competed side by side for over seventy five years. Municipal 276 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: electric system called MUNI Light and then CEI private investor 277 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: own utility. What happened, though, is that CEI made a 278 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: decision at some point they wanted to take over munilife, 279 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: and so they developed a plan which became public and 280 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: they also used their power with the media to try 281 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: to force the shore of the sale. And so the 282 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: book opens up with blackouts that are occurring in downtown 283 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: Cleveland over the holidays, and as the story unfaults, it's 284 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: clear that we're in a story of corporate sabotage and espionage, 285 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: and it takes a very dark turn beyond the blackouts, 286 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: very quickly, and it ends up becoming an unprecedented sorry 287 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: in American history, documented by the way about the battle 288 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: between UH, you know, a public publicly owned utility and 289 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: privately owned utility, the division of light and power, and 290 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: part of that America synages the idea of the division 291 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: of power in Washington. Your observation on what your Democratic 292 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: party needs to do to keep majority in the House 293 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: and grab a legitimate majority uh in the in the Senate. 294 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: How do the progressives liberals of your party need to 295 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: speak to more moderate Democrats? Well, the first thing I 296 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: need to do is to support law enforcement in the cities, 297 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: because crime rates are going up in the cities. I mean, 298 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: Cleveland's had a sharp increase in homicides, colonious assaults, carjackings, 299 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: and people are concerned and the Party needs to have 300 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 1: a strong stand on public safety, you know, word for 301 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: civil liberties. Everyone understands that we've got to show that. 302 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: We also understand that some cities are under a siege 303 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: of crime. Uh. You know, it's the old mantra of job, job, jobs, 304 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: and we need to make it possible for people to 305 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: get back to work and to make sure they're making 306 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: a decent wage. And that, you know, is what an 307 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: infrastructure bill has to be about. And you know, that's 308 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: that's it's kind of like the old FDR formula, which 309 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: we unfortunately got away from. So Mayor, you know, we 310 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: have a president who was in the Senate for forty years. 311 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: We have a vice president who just came out of 312 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: the Senate. There was some expectation, it was just hope, 313 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: that there would be an opportunity for some real bipartisan 314 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: work in Congress. It does not appear that that's going 315 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: to be the case. Should anyone be surprised? Well, you know, 316 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: first of all, Joe Biden is a very pragmatic. I've 317 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: known President Buying for almost shifty years, and he's you know, 318 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: he's a product of the institution, and he knows almost 319 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, like Lyndon Jackson, he knows how the institution works. 320 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: So I think we should, you know, expect some progress. 321 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: But we're in an era of hyperpartisanship, which is, you know, 322 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: which is resulting in in inertia, and that's bad for 323 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: the country. And so you know, this battle for control 324 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: of the Senate in the House is creating certain, you know, 325 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: aspects of our politics which are so destructive. I think 326 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: American people are getting shut up with both parties as 327 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: a result of that. And you know, it's like a 328 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: set of your differences. Run the government and don't screw 329 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: it up. Dennis Casina. The Division of Light and Power 330 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: reads like a movie script. It's like every I think 331 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: the longest chapter is I gave pages. I love it, 332 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: I loved boom boom boom. You get right through this 333 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: on the Titanic battle he faced in Cleveland over public 334 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: utilities in a political battle and involves some crime as well. 335 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: I mean, it is way more than just regulated utility. 336 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: Chip right, Dennis, Concenters of course Democrat as well Jennifer 337 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: Neuso where it's Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security and 338 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 1: a senior scholar. Jennifer, I want to go back to April. April, 339 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: the EU was really looking at letting American tourists into Europe. 340 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: There was a better tone. Hospitalizations now led by the unvaccinated, 341 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: have returned to where they were April twenty six, and 342 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: it is not a good trend. What is the character 343 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: of those hospitalizations. Yeah, it is not a good trend. 344 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 1: I mean it is a different patient population than had 345 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: been hospitalized earlier in the pandemic. In particular, we have 346 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: um fortunately seen good vaccine uptake against the populations that 347 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: are most likely to become severely ill, of older adults, 348 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: and so now the people who are being hospitalized UM 349 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: are younger. Although age is the singlet single biggest risk factor, 350 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: it's not the only risk factor. And so certainly people 351 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: with underlying health conditions, and it's a list, it's a 352 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: lot of people um that fit in that category. UM, 353 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: but also even potentially people who have no underlying health 354 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,719 Speaker 1: conditions are unfortunately now being hospitalized. And it's so tragic 355 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: because vaccines can prevent that from happening, Jennifer, We used 356 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,479 Speaker 1: to talk about trying to achieve a seventy vaccination right 357 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: in this country. Can you compare and contrast the reproduction 358 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: rate of this variant, the dominant variant right now, the 359 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: doabta variant, compared to what we first experienced eighteen months ago, 360 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: and what that means for those kind of goals, whether 361 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: now needs to be seventy, etcetera. Yeah, I mean it does, 362 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: like need to be higher. Um. The delta variant is 363 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: spreading much more quickly, and it's potentially spreading a bit 364 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: earlier um in people's illness, possibly when they're not even 365 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: feeling much, um, So that complicates things. So the fact 366 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: that if you're sick and you're out and about, you 367 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: can infect more people than you would have with earlier 368 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: forms of the virus just makes it harder for public 369 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: health officials, um, you know, to outrun it, to to 370 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: use other measures to try to control it. And that's 371 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: why it's really important that we don't have to do that, 372 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: that we can prevent those infections from occurring in the 373 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: first place. And that's what vaccines are great at doing. 374 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: Not perfect, but great masks. That's the conversation down in 375 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: d C. Jennifer, you know it's back on the table 376 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 1: politically this morning, return of the masks. The Washington Post, 377 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: going with White House official, was debate masking push as 378 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: COVID infection spike. If you've been vaccinated, Jennifer, what does 379 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: a mask do for you? What does it do for others? Sure? Well, listen, 380 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: As I said before, the vaccines are are pretty good 381 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: at preventing you from getting infected. That said, we know 382 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: that there are some people who are still going to 383 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: get iill potentially, but you know, they'll keep them out 384 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: of the hospital. It'll be mild, it'll be the kind 385 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: of illness that if that's all the virus could do, 386 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: we would have never heard of this virus in the 387 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 1: first place. So if you're somebody in that category where 388 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: you know you don't want to get that illness, then 389 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: wearing a mask, even though you're vaccinated, may be helpful. 390 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: Your need to do that UM is greater when you're 391 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:21,959 Speaker 1: in a place where there's just a lot more illness 392 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: around you, where people are more likely to be infected, 393 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: where there's lower protection overall in the community because of 394 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: low vaccination rates. UM That said, don't believe that the 395 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: vaccines don't UM, you know, give you some protection. I 396 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,479 Speaker 1: think there's been a rising narrative about that that it's 397 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: really disturbing to me. Our school is one of those 398 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: places where you need to be more careful. Jennifer my 399 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: home state of Virginia yesterday urging everyone in an elementary school, students, 400 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: teachers alike, to mask up. Given under twelve still aren't 401 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: vaccinated as we approached the school year, is it safe 402 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: for students to be returning? Sure? So, first of all, 403 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: we know that it is possible to return children to 404 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: school UM safely, and it's really essential that we do 405 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: so after UM this past year and a half of 406 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: educational disruption that itself carries harms. I've got two young 407 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 1: kids who are too young to be vaccinated UM, so 408 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: I'm very much in that boat. So so we can 409 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: do it safely. Now, it has been recommended that kids, 410 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: particularly those who can't be vaccinated, wear masks. You know. Truthfully, 411 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: I think it's going to depend on what the level 412 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: of infection in the community is. If you're in a 413 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: community that has done done its part, has vaccinated its adults, 414 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: and there are very few cases it seems hard to 415 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: think that you need to wear masks in schools. That said, 416 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: if you know you want to have zero risk tolerance 417 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: and let's just get them back and make sure they're 418 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: as safe as possible, then you know that's that's an 419 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: important tool to use. I think in schools where the 420 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: case numbers and the surrounding communities are raging, then masks 421 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: are probably an important tool because we do know that 422 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: if there are cases among kids in schools, UM, it 423 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: follows what happens in the surrounding community. UM I do 424 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: have to stress though, that overall kids are at lower 425 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: risk of serious illness from all forms of the virus, 426 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: including the Delta variant. There's been some I think confusing 427 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: conversation about that lately, and as a parent, um I 428 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: would want other parents to know that, so you know, 429 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: we just we face those risks, UM with with what 430 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: data we have right now. Well, Jennifer school is not 431 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: back in session yet. It is still summer vacation, and 432 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: it's so the summer season in Europe too, and yet 433 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: anyone in Europe looking to take a vacation in the 434 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: US still can't do that. The Biden administration yet hasn't 435 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: yet made a decision. If you were advising the president 436 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: and the people around him as to whether or not 437 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: that's safe given the concerns of the delta variant, what 438 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: would you say, Well, first of all, the delta variant 439 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: is already here and it's raging. So if we're not 440 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 1: letting people in because we want to keep it out, 441 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: then that ship has already sailed. Um. You know, I 442 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: think there's probably political pressures to keep the border closed 443 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: because people, you know, and to prevent people from coming 444 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: because it's probably just easier. Um, but I'm not convinced 445 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: that it's doing much for us epidemiologically. Is it politics 446 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: or is it science? That's a big question right now, 447 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 1: and a lot of people keep saying it's about politics, 448 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: including your South. Jennifer is going to catch up. Jennifer 449 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: Newts Jones Health Consents at the House Security Senior Scholar. 450 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Thanks for listening. Join 451 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: us live weekdays from seven to ten am Eastern on 452 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio and on Bloomberg Television each day from six 453 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: to nine am for insight from the best in economics, finance, investment, 454 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: and international relations. And subscribe to the Surveillance podcast on 455 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, SoundCloud, Bloomberg dot com, and of course on 456 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: the terminal. I'm Tom Keene, and this is Bloomberg.