Speaker 1: Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies.
Speaker 3: These episodes are based on.
Speaker 4: These are our stories, done done Yay.
Speaker 2: Another episode of That's Messed Up an SVU podcast. My
Speaker 2: name is Lisa, Welcome, my name is Kara, and very
Speaker 2: exciting news. We are coming to you very not live,
Speaker 2: but from the exactly right studios for the first time.
Speaker 3: First time in the studios.
Speaker 1: We're here, we're face to face, we're recording in the
Speaker 1: same room, which you guys know we don't really do.
Speaker 5: So this is exciting.
Speaker 1: No, I wonder, I wonder what will happen. I know
Speaker 1: we're going to explode.
Speaker 5: You're in LA. How's it been going. Well?
Speaker 2: Remember that podcast guy that I talk about the porn podcast. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he was at the comedy store ooh, And I walk
Speaker 2: out on the main room and he's there with all
Speaker 2: his friends and he basically jumps up and goes.
Speaker 3: You're my favorite comedian, and oh my god.
Speaker 2: And then outside I was like, yeah, I'm obsessed with
Speaker 2: the stuff you do, and he goes, I can't be
Speaker 2: my favorite comedian.
Speaker 3: Listens to my podcast, and I was like, this is crazy.
Speaker 2: But then I just I follow him so intensely usually,
Speaker 2: but Brian Callin's on his podcast, so I was like,
Speaker 2: I guess the bar's not too I for his favorite comedian,
Speaker 2: and you'll probably be on it, right, Yeah, well yeah,
Speaker 2: I'll be on it.
Speaker 3: That's not the thing. I just don't like that he
Speaker 3: had a rapist on it.
Speaker 5: But we didn't know that. Sorry, I guess I didn't
Speaker 5: know that. Oh yeah about him?
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's in the Delia the crew. Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: he broke down in tears being like my friend.
Speaker 1: Oh god, but so so me. Yeah, maybe of a
Speaker 1: male comedian. It was so fun and we like chatted
Speaker 1: for a really long time. That's awesome. Wait is that
Speaker 1: say the name of the podcast pillow Talk pillow Talk?
Speaker 1: Is that where him and his girlfriend have sex with
Speaker 1: people afterwards? Or is that a different one? No, that's
Speaker 1: a different one. It's a different one that's called I
Speaker 1: don't remember what it's called, but it's Lena the Plug
Speaker 1: in Adam twenty two.
Speaker 5: Right, right, right? How could I forget Lenna the Plug?
Speaker 5: What a name?
Speaker 1: So it's different, but they are they are rich, they're
Speaker 1: all rich. How my brother was in town. My little
Speaker 1: niece and nephew were in town. I watched four kids.
Speaker 1: I took four kids to get ice cream by myself, like,
Speaker 1: and my body hurt the next day from pushing like
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty pounds in a stroller.
Speaker 3: They're all in one stroller, three of.
Speaker 5: Them are, and then Rosie was on a bike. Jeez, yeah,
Speaker 5: I didn't even know there's right, I guess there's the.
Speaker 1: Basket in the bottom, and one of them just sits there, okay,
Speaker 1: in the bottom, and then one of them sit stands
Speaker 1: on a kickplate, and then one of them goes in
Speaker 1: the top seat.
Speaker 5: It's wild. Do they fight over which position they're going
Speaker 5: to be in? NonStop? Does everyone want to be in
Speaker 5: the basket? No, they all switch what they want to do.
Speaker 1: I want the kickblade, I want to be in the
Speaker 1: seat up top like the It's a war every time,
Speaker 1: every time. But I took them to some sweet ice cream,
Speaker 1: and then they got to go on like a spooky
Speaker 1: walk through the neighborhood because it got dark. But you know,
Speaker 1: my niece and my nephew are like a little bit
Speaker 1: more scared than my kids. My kids are into Beetlejuice
Speaker 1: and Nightmare before Christmas.
Speaker 3: So they were there, were there are.
Speaker 1: In my neighborhood, multiple twenty foot Jack Jack Skellington's that talk.
Speaker 3: And so my niece was like, and I was like,
Speaker 3: it's not real.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have a brain or heartbeat, like, and I
Speaker 1: was really trying to like get out to chill.
Speaker 3: But we had a great time. And then I took
Speaker 3: them to there was a big street.
Speaker 1: Fair in your old neighborhood, my neighborhood, and took them
Speaker 1: to that, and yeah, just been getting ready for tour.
Speaker 1: You know, well, when this comes out, we'll be already
Speaker 1: on the road.
Speaker 5: We'll be halfway through.
Speaker 1: So I guess, wait, let me just look when this
Speaker 1: baby comes out, it's uh, you can still check us
Speaker 1: out tonight in San Francisco and tomorrow in Portland.
Speaker 5: Come see us guys.
Speaker 1: So yeah, just been pumping that, pumping out the SVU
Speaker 1: material out.
Speaker 5: That's it.
Speaker 3: I haven't done like anything fun or interesting.
Speaker 5: I hate to say.
Speaker 2: I was with a friend and he was saying, like
Speaker 2: the types of girls that you would bring to horror
Speaker 2: nights I guess at Universality. Yeah, he was like, you know,
Speaker 2: they're dangerous. He goes the white girls. They that love Halloween.
Speaker 2: They have Jack Skellington, little tattoos, and then he goes
Speaker 2: and then it's the Mexican girls who love it.
Speaker 3: It's full black and.
Speaker 1: Grace Leaves of Frankenstein and like just really classic.
Speaker 2: And he was just like talking. He's like, I don't
Speaker 2: even take girls there anymore. I can't trust Halloween girls.
Speaker 2: He's like, if you watch horror movies all year round,
Speaker 2: I can't be with you.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I guess he's been scarred by a lot of
Speaker 2: horror girls with tattoos that demand horror night.
Speaker 5: Says dates.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's expensive too.
Speaker 1: That's an expensive date, and I hope it's deep into
Speaker 1: the relationship because it's a lot of waiting around.
Speaker 5: I've gone to horror nights twice.
Speaker 1: It would have to be also like a date where
Speaker 1: you really want to spend a lot of time talking
Speaker 1: because you're just waiting in long ass lines the whole
Speaker 1: time unless you spring for the fast pass, and that's
Speaker 1: more money.
Speaker 5: It's an expensive date.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's what that's.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I always good people onlines canoodling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and then like I'm scared, I don't know
Speaker 1: if somebody. When I went, Jared was more scared than
Speaker 1: I was, and he's like the horror guy.
Speaker 2: But I've never been to Horror Nights or like a
Speaker 2: theme partner during Halloween.
Speaker 5: I've never done that.
Speaker 1: Horror Nights is fun, but it's freaky, like there's people
Speaker 1: walking the streets that just come up to you with
Speaker 1: a chainsaw. Isn't it Isn't it isn't a themed every year? Well, no,
Speaker 1: they'll be like one house or whatever that's like a
Speaker 1: big current movie. Usually, Like when I went one year,
Speaker 1: it was US and it was like the exact house
Speaker 1: from US. And then when I went last year, it
Speaker 1: was like Last of Us was like the big themed house.
Speaker 1: Here it's a quiet place. Oh okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1: And I was just talking about this, and I don't
Speaker 1: know if I've said it on this podcast before, but
Speaker 1: I have the idea that I really want to know
Speaker 1: what goes on behind the scenes with those people, with
Speaker 1: the people that seasonally work at Halloween Horror Nights, Like
Speaker 1: what is it like after hours? Are they going out,
Speaker 1: are they hooking up? What's going on? Are they moving
Speaker 1: on to a Christmas thing after they are done with that?
Speaker 1: What's the audition process to be like the different people,
Speaker 1: because like one girl played like the star of Last
Speaker 1: of Us, the girl, and she just kept going look
Speaker 1: over there, look over there, like and that was her
Speaker 1: only line. She had to keep stepping forward and doing it.
Speaker 1: I was like, was that a get for you to
Speaker 1: get that gig? Like to not just be like a
Speaker 1: zombie floating in the corner like you got to aligne.
Speaker 5: You know, I'm very interested.
Speaker 1: I want there to be a docuseries or a scripted
Speaker 1: series about these.
Speaker 2: People you don't care about, like the Disney people. You
Speaker 2: just care about the Horror Night's seasonal employees.
Speaker 1: The seasonal people, because I feel like they've got to
Speaker 1: be they got to be one because we're in California.
Speaker 1: I'm just assuming they're actors. They want to be actors. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're electors, but like they're happy they're working, but they're
Speaker 1: not happy to be there.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just want to know what drinks look like after,
Speaker 1: if there's drama about getting different parts, I'm interested.
Speaker 5: I'm interested in what's going on with them.
Speaker 1: They're also what's the training they have to go They
Speaker 1: have to go up and swipe at your face, but
Speaker 1: they get this close to.
Speaker 5: You without touching you, Like, is there training for that?
Speaker 3: I bet because they can't touch anyone.
Speaker 5: Well, I guess.
Speaker 2: Jimmy Fallon was on Watch What Happens Live and he
Speaker 2: created a haunted house at Rockefeller's Center. Oh, and the
Speaker 2: bartender was one of the zombie page. She was dressed
Speaker 2: like a page, but she just kept going, oh my
Speaker 2: god at the bartending position.
Speaker 5: That was fun. Oh.
Speaker 2: I saw Sugar Daddy. I saw Sam Morrison's show in
Speaker 2: Beverly Hill.
Speaker 3: Oh, how was it?
Speaker 2: It was really good and such a cool set, and
Speaker 2: it's going to Broadway, so look out for it.
Speaker 3: I really loved it.
Speaker 5: Funny.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's about kind of the love of his life
Speaker 2: dying and then getting diagnosed with diabetes type one.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's really funny. I liked it. That's great.
Speaker 5: That's great.
Speaker 1: It's a really cool set. And we got to touch
Speaker 1: it after because we're VIP.
Speaker 5: Oh nice.
Speaker 3: But then we went to the cheesecake factory.
Speaker 5: I saw that on your Instagram. You did well, maybe
Speaker 5: Jared did.
Speaker 1: I was like, you and Jared at the cheesecake factory
Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm glad you got to go.
Speaker 2: He was very against it because it ends up being
Speaker 2: expensive anyways, So you could have just had a great
Speaker 2: meal somewhere, but instead, like I ordered salads and then
Speaker 2: Sam was like, is there salad salty? And then Jared
Speaker 2: in his head was just like, we're at cheesecake factory.
Speaker 2: What did you think is gonna happen?
Speaker 5: But I got a coconut cheesecake and it was really good.
Speaker 5: That sounds solicious. Oh good, I love it. Coconut cheesecake.
Speaker 2: Cheesecakes are good there. But yeah it is. But Chilies
Speaker 2: is having a moment. Have you seen no, Oh, Chili
Speaker 2: people are going back to Like, Chilies is having a moment.
Speaker 2: People are talking about the little dipper thing. They're going
Speaker 2: dates like it's kind of yeah, Like I said.
Speaker 1: No that there's one where my in my husband's hometown
Speaker 1: and we never have anywhere to eat there, so we'll
Speaker 1: head back to Chili's.
Speaker 3: I wonder if you'll like it. There's always something I
Speaker 3: can have a chili.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you'll have not choses.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wasn't worried about that.
Speaker 2: I just I just remember when I went to Chili's
Speaker 2: as an adult, I was not happy. Yes, but maybe
Speaker 2: something's changed. Maybe it's like Dominoes and they all got
Speaker 2: new recipes.
Speaker 1: They've got like a five star chef to start, like,
Speaker 1: didn't talk Go Bell at one point have like a
Speaker 1: very like high end Mexican food chef like doing their
Speaker 1: menu and stuff.
Speaker 2: Maybe Chili's did that. I don't remember this Taco Bell era.
Speaker 1: I remember there was like a thing where they were
Speaker 1: like we asked so and so for like you know,
Speaker 1: and like he had inspired, inspired things on the menu.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong place, but I thought
Speaker 1: it was Taco Bell Did you see the video of
Speaker 1: Nicole Kidman and Samahayak and what are your thoughts?
Speaker 3: What are they doing?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: I haven't.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, Oh my god, this is so rare. Are
Speaker 1: you guys clocking that I saw one thing on the
Speaker 1: internet before? Lisa, I'm so excited. They're at like a
Speaker 1: fashion week, but I don't think it's New York because
Speaker 1: that's not happening yet, right or was New York just happening? Okay,
Speaker 1: So they're at like Bubbalenciaga thing or whatever, and Samahayak
Speaker 1: just keeps trying to like turn Nicole Kidman like towards
Speaker 1: the camera, and there's like an icy moment between them,
Speaker 1: and Nicole Kidman is like enough stop, like don't touch
Speaker 1: me or whatever.
Speaker 3: And I saw it on Instagram.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh wow, And you know, it's like
Speaker 1: I think Balenciaga is owned by the company that her
Speaker 1: Salma Hayek's husband is like the president of, so she
Speaker 1: probably thinks she's, like, you know, the first lady of
Speaker 1: the Balenciaga Show and Nicole Kidman I read on page
Speaker 1: six they had a like a lip reader who like
Speaker 1: was telling you what they were saying to each other,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't actually nothing was that sassy that was said,
Speaker 1: but like the body language is very Nicole Kidman is
Speaker 1: like don't touch me and don't fucking tell me which
Speaker 1: and don't point me towards.
Speaker 5: The camera like I don't like I don't want that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And also though I read somewhere somebody said it's Nicole.
Speaker 2: Kidd but then like Nicole Kidman is doing this to
Speaker 2: her at the end too, yes, and then she goes
Speaker 2: to say hi to Katie Perry, who you don't you
Speaker 2: might not notice because I didn't notice on first look
Speaker 2: is like right behind them and kind of with them,
Speaker 2: so but I heard that it's also Nicole Kidman's first
Speaker 2: public appearance since her mom suddenly passed like last month.
Speaker 2: So she might have just been like, she's wearing black,
Speaker 2: she's wearing sunglasses. She might have just been like, I'm
Speaker 2: trying to be incognito, don't touch me, and like point
Speaker 2: me towards the paparazzi or whatever.
Speaker 1: So but kind of wild to see two A listers
Speaker 1: tangle like that.
Speaker 2: I'm also just happy these lip readers have come out
Speaker 2: of what works and really help us. I also just
Speaker 2: saw that Taylor Swift just announced that she's going to
Speaker 2: have a book like an Era's Tour book, and it's
Speaker 2: going to come out on Black Friday at Target. I
Speaker 2: just texted the niece and nephews that we have to
Speaker 2: go to Target on Black Friday.
Speaker 3: We'll see if they go. One of them hast to
Speaker 3: drive me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think that specifically is going to bring
Speaker 1: a lot of people to that Target.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to go to Target. I'm going to
Speaker 2: be part of the consumer problem. You have to like
Speaker 2: hit a person working there. You really have to get
Speaker 2: into it. You have to do the whole thing.
Speaker 5: And I will.
Speaker 3: Where's the tailor book?
Speaker 5: Out of my way?
Speaker 1: Just pushing children out of the way teens. I guess
Speaker 1: maybe we can order online, but I want the book.
Speaker 1: I want to be a part of it. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm new like anything that I can be live a
Speaker 1: part of.
Speaker 3: But the concert's coming in. I still have an outfit it.
Speaker 1: What do we I want Midnight's era look, but I
Speaker 1: just can't find it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Midnight, you know I'm not I'm not gonna be
Speaker 5: much of my help. What's Midnights? I thought I want.
Speaker 2: Paternalons, stars blues. I want dark blues and stars and
Speaker 2: Moon's Okay, that's my inspo. But I haven't really been
Speaker 2: able to find something because I don't want.
Speaker 1: To be I need to be comfortable. Yeah, and that's
Speaker 1: that's the hard crossover. Well, I'm sure now that we've
Speaker 1: talked about it, something exactly like that will come up
Speaker 1: in your feet on Instagram because.
Speaker 2: Well I did go on Selki and I was like,
Speaker 2: maybe Selki will have like some star stuff and that's
Speaker 2: their new collection, like the home screen said star crossed
Speaker 2: looking for a place in the cosmos.
Speaker 3: Wow, But I'm not wearing.
Speaker 2: A giant corseted gown like I'm not, and I don't
Speaker 2: want anything too long and like I don't know, I
Speaker 2: don't know what I'm gonna do, and I can't believe
Speaker 2: it's like.
Speaker 1: A week, like a month away. I know something's gonna
Speaker 1: come together for you. Hey, you had a you had
Speaker 1: a bucked up outfit for your special four days before
Speaker 1: it taped, and look what you did.
Speaker 5: So I have faith that you're gonna find something good.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think if anybody's listening, I'm certainly not
Speaker 1: the good resource for this, because verone's listening that knows
Speaker 1: where Leasa can get a good Star Moon fun outfit
Speaker 1: for Taylor dm.
Speaker 3: Us, did your brother have fun at that wedding?
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were like a little annoyed because like three
Speaker 1: weeks before the wedding, suddenly the bride was like, there's
Speaker 1: a color palette, like I want everyone to wear earth tones, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, like many people don't look good at
Speaker 1: earth tones. It's like mauve beige, like browns, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. Like that's not really and that's the
Speaker 1: thing people are doing now, I think because of like
Speaker 1: the instagramification of every event in our lives, Like everyone
Speaker 1: wants their photos to look like everyone coordinated, which I get,
Speaker 1: but they spent a lot of money to fly out
Speaker 1: for it, and then they were like, three weeks before,
Speaker 1: you're telling us that we have to like get a
Speaker 1: specific outfit, and she had accidentally bought something that I
Speaker 1: guess was like what the she had planned on work,
Speaker 1: something that was what the bride's maids were wearing. So
Speaker 1: they were like, you can't wear that. So but they
Speaker 1: said it was a great they had a good time.
Speaker 1: It was like in downtown San Diego.
Speaker 3: It's embarrassed.
Speaker 2: I just feel like more adults need to find hobbies
Speaker 2: and where they have recitals and events and are celebrated
Speaker 2: so they can get back down to reality during their wedding.
Speaker 3: And I cannot push it all onto the wedding.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I just get attention almost every day of
Speaker 2: my life in an extreme way. So to me, I'm
Speaker 2: like I would I'm not desperate for this, yeah, but
Speaker 2: like people like it's just like, get.
Speaker 3: Get down to earth. Yeah.
Speaker 5: I was just saying weddings are like birthday.
Speaker 1: Parties for adults now that like, but when you're five,
Speaker 1: like when you're like I want this and I want
Speaker 1: this and I want that, and if it's not the
Speaker 1: right thing, I'm freaking out like it's like a five.
Speaker 5: You're regressing when you have a wedding. I feel a
Speaker 5: lot of people.
Speaker 3: But yeah, he had a good time. It was great
Speaker 3: to see them. Oh I'll tell you about my phone.
Speaker 2: Okay, I had because people always are like New York LA,
Speaker 2: like what's the vibe? And so I have walked in
Speaker 2: La shock. I like did some thirty forty minute walks home.
Speaker 2: But I was just walking between comedy clubs on sunset,
Speaker 2: so like a fifteen minute walk and a man just
Speaker 2: starts being like I'm gonna fucking shoot you in the head.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna fucking.
Speaker 5: Kill you, just screaming, and then but no one's around.
Speaker 3: That's the thing.
Speaker 1: If someone screams at you in New York or is
Speaker 1: violent in some way, there's a bodega you can obviously
Speaker 1: not all neighborhoods and like there are like more quieter places,
Speaker 1: but people are out and about and walking and so
Speaker 1: even if something happens, there's like alert.
Speaker 3: Kind of or we're all in it.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm just alone on sunset for ten minutes
Speaker 2: with a man going behind me going I'm gonna fucking
Speaker 2: kill you, and I just have to be like, well,
Speaker 2: this is how I go or not and that's that.
Speaker 1: And so it's just I know, it's scary, Like I've
Speaker 1: actually had cars like slow down and be like what
Speaker 1: are you doing when I'm walking in La, Like when
Speaker 1: I've walked in LA before, especially like at night, They're
Speaker 1: like are you okay?
Speaker 5: Like You're like, I'm just trying to walk. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So then so I got picked up to go to
Speaker 2: this meeting and my driver was incredible. He's lived in
Speaker 2: LA since the seventies, and so he was telling me.
Speaker 2: He goes, my mom actually lived in that place. I
Speaker 2: just picked you up. And then I was across the
Speaker 2: street and then we drove past. He goes, oh, down
Speaker 2: there is the Menendez brother's house. And I go, oh, bro,
Speaker 2: you've been here. You were here for the night stalk
Speaker 2: or he goes Richard Ramirez, Yeah, I was here. And
Speaker 2: then he goes, look up this address, and I typed
Speaker 2: in this address and it's where he lived as I
Speaker 2: don't remember when. And it was the most gruesome crime
Speaker 2: in LA history. And it was like this husband gruesomely
Speaker 2: murdered his girlfriend in a fucked up way and their child.
Speaker 5: Was four weeks old. Oh my god.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to see if maybe SVU did something
Speaker 2: with it. But I just have like this great conversation
Speaker 2: with a guy where our interests, you know, overlapped. And
Speaker 2: so then I'm going back and I call another car
Speaker 2: and it's a girl, and usually I'm happy when it's
Speaker 2: a girl.
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, great, a girl.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I get in and she goes, oh, do you live
Speaker 2: in this neighborhood? And when we're in Beverly Hill was
Speaker 2: I go oh no, I was just meeting someone. I go,
Speaker 2: what about you? She says, oh, I live near where
Speaker 2: I'm dropping you off. I go, oh, cool, are you
Speaker 2: born and raised?
Speaker 1: La?
Speaker 2: Normal question? She does not like this, so all of
Speaker 2: a sudden she goes, well where are you from? And
Speaker 2: I go, oh, the Chicago suburb. She goes, well where's
Speaker 2: your family from? Huh, where's your lineage? Like that kind
Speaker 2: So then it hits me like that's probably why, like
Speaker 2: how she interpreted my question of like where's your culture?
Speaker 2: You know, like what are you? So I go, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm from the former Soviet Union. She goes yeah, like
Speaker 2: when people ask that and where are people from? And
Speaker 2: then starts talking about immigration and policy and different countries
Speaker 2: and all of this, and I'm.
Speaker 5: Just like, oh, I get where.
Speaker 3: I get that.
Speaker 2: I go, I just meant like, you don't meet a
Speaker 2: lot of native there's a lot of child But she's
Speaker 2: now activated through I might straight up. We start talking
Speaker 2: about travel or being welcome at places, and then every
Speaker 2: time I try to agree with her, being like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I see where you're coming from like this, she'd be like, no,
Speaker 2: not like that, because this and that, And in the
Speaker 2: few minutes that we were in the car, it was
Speaker 2: Thailand's LGBT and I don't like that, and I go.
Speaker 3: And then later she goes, I feel like you're I.
Speaker 5: Go, I don't.
Speaker 2: I go, I've had enough. And she goes, I think
Speaker 2: it's okay to disagree and argue. I go, but I'm
Speaker 2: not interested in engaging with you at all. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: she goes, well, why I don't think you liked my
Speaker 2: comment about this?
Speaker 5: I go, that wasn't it.
Speaker 2: I think you're homophobic and I hateful bitch. Like I
Speaker 2: didn't say bitch. I'm like, I just don't fuck with
Speaker 2: people that are homophobic. She goes, what, I don't like
Speaker 2: that Thailand's gay and I don't want America to be gay.
Speaker 2: And I don't want my brother to turn into a girl.
Speaker 2: And I believe in.
Speaker 5: The nuclear family.
Speaker 2: And she goes, aren't you Jewish? Jews aren't for gay people.
Speaker 2: She goes, I believe in modesty. That's why I like
Speaker 2: Muslim culture. All you people, and like starts going off.
Speaker 2: She brings up the Holocaust. She goes, as a Jew,
Speaker 2: what you feel safe in Europe?
Speaker 5: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: And then when I.
Speaker 2: Said something, I said something about, like, oh, you know,
Speaker 2: I could usually tell someone's like Russian and Jewish. She goes,
Speaker 2: I'm Jewish. You probably couldn't tell. I go, that's not always.
Speaker 2: She goes, see it, you're wrong.
Speaker 5: And I was just like, oh my god.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just saying I usually could tell someone's Russian
Speaker 2: from a mile away, like, and she's just and I go,
Speaker 2: I'm not.
Speaker 3: I don't need this in my life.
Speaker 2: Just drive, bitch, shut your fucking mouth, like is what
Speaker 2: I was thinking. But I think she was unhinged, Like
Speaker 2: I don't think she's a well human in her brain.
Speaker 2: And anyway, like, how in ten minutes are you bringing
Speaker 2: up Holocaust? That you hate trans people, you hate gay people,
Speaker 2: that you think women are sluts and should be more
Speaker 2: modest like in Jewish and Muslim religion, and it's like
Speaker 2: Jews aren't against gay people in any capacity. There's nothing
Speaker 2: that's like, it's the Christians. You can stick to your
Speaker 2: like I don't know, but it was just insane. So
Speaker 2: then finally I was like, I want to get out.
Speaker 2: She goes where I go, just get me the I'm like,
Speaker 2: go to a curb. And then we were at a
Speaker 2: red light. I'm like, I'm leaving, and then she reported
Speaker 2: me that I got out of a car while it
Speaker 2: was moving, but I had already wrote, like this woman
Speaker 2: is unwell and she should not have passengers in her car.
Speaker 2: I go, there's really no reason to ask what religion
Speaker 2: I am talk about how you hate gay people?
Speaker 3: Like what are you talking about?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 1: It was wild and you're driving in LA like that's
Speaker 1: so crazy and its And then finally she goes and
Speaker 1: she said she lives near where you're staying, which is
Speaker 1: you won't be there anymore West Hollywood.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you don't want to be whired you live there.
Speaker 2: But it's also like so gay, yeah exactly, Like we're
Speaker 2: driving through like near high tops and she's like, fuck
Speaker 2: gay people. The crosswalk is rainbow like it's and then
Speaker 2: she goes, well, I didn't like your question asking if
Speaker 2: I'm from here, like if I'm American or not, and
Speaker 2: I go, that's not it. I just had a cool
Speaker 2: driver that was here from the seventies and he was
Speaker 2: teaching me a lot about LA and it was from here.
Speaker 1: And also if you asked if I'm from Beverly Hills, yeah,
Speaker 1: like what are we doing?
Speaker 2: But that's what I mean. She's like, like she's not
Speaker 2: well because it wasn't even a normal convo like oh
Speaker 2: we disagree or whatever. It was just like antagonistic, like
Speaker 2: she just wanted to fight. And then even after I
Speaker 2: said that, I go, I just had a great driver
Speaker 2: that I appreciate, like I liked, and she was like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's kind of like when I was in Coney Island
Speaker 2: and Marshall.
Speaker 3: Was just talking about the Olympics.
Speaker 2: And I was like, I don't care about America, but
Speaker 2: I love when they beat France. And this woman goes,
Speaker 2: if you live here, you better like it, and Striten
Speaker 2: it going on this pro America thing and Marcia goes,
Speaker 2: we're talking about the Olympics and she went, oh, and
Speaker 2: it's like that it's like this lady just went off.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I'm not even from here.
Speaker 1: Everybody's so hot to pop off right now. It's it's
Speaker 1: a tense time. It's like drive the car, like shut up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And eventually I'm the I'm the passenger. I told her
Speaker 1: maybe three or four times I wanted to stop talking
Speaker 1: to her. I go, I don't, I just don't need this.
Speaker 1: And I told her, I go, I'm having a great day.
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful day outside. I go, I just don't
Speaker 1: need Yeah, I don't need to be quiet, and she wouldn't.
Speaker 1: I kept going into my phone being quiet. She goes,
Speaker 1: what you're mad that I said this? Well, I didn't
Speaker 1: like that you said.
Speaker 3: That, like weird. This is not a friendship. Oh my god,
Speaker 3: it was. It was Wow.
Speaker 1: I can't believe you had such kind of greatest and
Speaker 1: worst uber drivers of your life on the same day.
Speaker 3: I look a cute dad.
Speaker 2: We talked about sleeping earlier and how sleep's important, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I've had very normal interactions and I
Speaker 2: was really shocked by this woman and how she got
Speaker 2: her tesla.
Speaker 3: But they don't even care you get raped.
Speaker 1: Lifter ubers I don't know if they're actually gonna do
Speaker 1: anything thing about somebody like being fully unhinged. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know if they do a mental health screening or
Speaker 1: anything for the people to drive.
Speaker 2: No, but like you're talking about the nuclear she goes,
Speaker 2: I just believe in the nuclear family, whatever it is.
Speaker 2: And it's like, well, clearly not, because you can have
Speaker 2: a nuclear family with gay people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like what are you talking about?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, what does your brother want to be trans? Like,
Speaker 2: what's the what are you talking about? Like, no one's
Speaker 2: forcing him to be trans. It was just it was unsettling.
Speaker 5: A low information voter.
Speaker 1: It sounds like, well, let's get going on our episode.
Speaker 1: We have a great guest today. We've got a great episode.
Speaker 1: Just a reminder, you still can get tickets to San
Speaker 1: Francisco and Portland at That's messed up live dot com
Speaker 1: and you can also there you can shop our merch
Speaker 1: check out our promos, you know, get all kinds of
Speaker 1: information about us. But let's start the episode. It's gonna
Speaker 1: be a good one. Okay. We are doing Goliath season six,
Speaker 1: episode twenty three. This is the season finale of season six,
Speaker 1: and we open on Benson and Stabler in the apartment
Speaker 1: of a woman and it is Amy Landecker.
Speaker 3: First thing I see.
Speaker 1: She is an amazing actress from Transparent, she was in
Speaker 1: a Serious Man. She's also done Law and Order and
Speaker 1: Criminal Intent, and she's in another episode of us View
Speaker 1: called Rotten from season four that we have not done yet.
Speaker 1: So she's Missus Callahan. They just keep calling her Missus Callahan.
Speaker 1: And she's telling the detectives that she never thought things
Speaker 1: would get this far. Things have been getting bad for months.
Speaker 1: And guess what her husband's name is. It's Tommy. Of course,
Speaker 1: it's another Tommy, the listener that called us out to us.
Speaker 1: It's like the best observation of all time that this
Speaker 1: show is obsessed with the name tom Tommy Thomas all
Speaker 1: Tommy's all the time.
Speaker 2: But also, missus Callahan's an old lady name. This is
Speaker 2: a misnaming.
Speaker 1: Isn't that from like a movie where they're like, sorry,
Speaker 1: missus Callahan.
Speaker 5: Or something like that?
Speaker 3: Is like an Adam Sandler movie thing or something, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's you or It Takes Two. I think it's from
Speaker 3: It Takes too is it?
Speaker 2: I don't know, But if I get this ray, I
Speaker 2: will feel pretty good about myself.
Speaker 3: Call Away, No, they're call Away.
Speaker 1: Oh Callahan is in Tommy Boy, which is another Tommy Callahan.
Speaker 5: Isn't it?
Speaker 3: Isn't it Casey Callahan? Auto parts? Yeah?
Speaker 5: Or brake pads? Yeah.
Speaker 1: So she's like, my husband, Tommy, he's changed. He was
Speaker 1: sweet and loving. Now he gets mad about everything and
Speaker 1: he takes it out on me, you know, las She said,
Speaker 1: I never thought it was going to get this far.
Speaker 1: He was going off last night about the neighbors. He
Speaker 1: thinks they're spying on them, but she's like they're eighty,
Speaker 1: Like they're not fucking spying on us. They fought, he
Speaker 1: started hitting her, he ripped her clothes off, and then
Speaker 1: he threatens to get his gun if she doesn't do
Speaker 1: what he says. So she's like, I mean, without saying it,
Speaker 1: you understand that he has sexually assaulted her, and she
Speaker 1: understandable is upset and she's like, I can't let this
Speaker 1: go on, not with a baby on the way. And
Speaker 1: Olivia asks like, well, where did he hit you? And
Speaker 1: she immediately gets very defensive. She's like, he's a cop.
Speaker 1: He knows how to hit me with leaving a mark.
Speaker 1: And she's like, I knew what I knew you guys
Speaker 1: wouldn't believe me. And Stabler's like, that's not true, and
Speaker 1: she's like, yeah, right, you guys cover for each other.
Speaker 1: She's like, I told his little partner that he was
Speaker 1: hitting me and she didn't do shit. So this guy's
Speaker 1: got a partner she did not help. This woman is
Speaker 1: sad upset. Benson and Stabler llstandibly like they are special detectives,
Speaker 1: but she doesn't know that. Yes, yes, she doesn't know.
Speaker 1: For all she knows, they're all in the same good
Speaker 1: old boy club and they're all protecting each other. So
Speaker 1: Benson and Stabler roll up on these two uniform cops
Speaker 1: that are like honestly bothering in on housewomen who's quietly
Speaker 1: sleeping in minding her own business, and they are Officers
Speaker 1: Callahan and Veil Veil as the female partner, and they
Speaker 1: want to bring them in for some questions, and they're
Speaker 1: kind of resistant, but Benson and Stabler are like, look,
Speaker 1: you're not under arrest.
Speaker 5: You drive your own car. We'll follow.
Speaker 1: And then as they walk off, Officer Callahan just pushes
Speaker 1: over the shopping cart belonging to the unhoused woman filled
Speaker 1: with cans, just as like a show of look how
Speaker 1: tough I am.
Speaker 3: It's really aggressive.
Speaker 1: Benson and Stablers share a look like wow, what a
Speaker 1: sweety pie. This is gonna be a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: And then it's the credits and it's a great cash shot.
Speaker 1: It's the whole gang plus Wang and Novak. It's fun.
Speaker 1: I like this crew. Then at the top of Act one,
Speaker 1: at the precinct, Callahan looks like a psycho robot. He's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know why my wife would say I raped
Speaker 1: her detective.
Speaker 5: That isn't true.
Speaker 1: And then Stabler's like, maybe it's a misunderstanding, and he's
Speaker 1: like still robot, like I perceived nothing unusual about her
Speaker 1: behavior or emotional state. And Stabler's like, wow, your training
Speaker 1: is kicking in, Like you're in cop mode. You're going polite, professional, detached.
Speaker 1: And Stabler's like, I mean, come on, she's making this
Speaker 1: whole thing up like that doesn't really track. And he's
Speaker 1: giving this guy's giving Stabler as Willem and Alaska would say,
Speaker 1: nutche he's giving nothing.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 1: We cut to Olivia with the female partner vile and
Speaker 1: she I'm sorry, Veil, not the vile files. We cut
Speaker 1: to Olivia with the female partner veil and she goes, well,
Speaker 1: one time he slept his wife in the heat of
Speaker 1: an argument after she hit him multiple times. It's like,
Speaker 1: already I'm not liking this woman. I'm like, I don't
Speaker 1: really care how many times she hit him. He's a
Speaker 1: huge cop, she's a tiny woman. And she says ultimately,
Speaker 1: the wife decided not to press charges, and Live is like,
Speaker 1: so you ignored the domestic violence must arrest policy. They'll
Speaker 1: goes no, Tommy is their sole source of income and
Speaker 1: one misdemeanor domestic violence conviction would cost him his job.
Speaker 1: Where would that leave both of them? So Olvia is like,
Speaker 1: so you did jack shit? And she's like, no, I
Speaker 1: gave Jamie my card and said that if he ever
Speaker 1: does it again to call me. And she's like, Tommy
Speaker 1: is not usually like that. So back to Stabler and
Speaker 1: Tommy and Tommy's like, my wife thinks I'm having an
Speaker 1: affair and the guy's like, Stabler goes the guy sorry,
Speaker 1: Stabler goes not his partner? Is it your partner? And
Speaker 1: he goes, no, not her. Some barrel sucker I met
Speaker 1: at a bar. Is that like, chucklefucker you think is
Speaker 1: a barrel sucker? Somebody who likes to fuck cops one
Speaker 1: hundred percent. I looked it up and it wasn't right there,
Speaker 1: so I was.
Speaker 2: Like, oh, bad badge bunny.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but that's a good one.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it was like it was like
Speaker 1: people who love their guns or something like that.
Speaker 5: So it was like I was I.
Speaker 1: Would there was something on, you know, Urban Dictionary, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't immediately that, So I was like, what a
Speaker 1: wild thing though, to be like, I love cops so much,
Speaker 1: like I like put a bit, could put a.
Speaker 5: Gun in my mouth. I love it so crazy.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's people that are obsessed with serial killers,
Speaker 2: so yeah, there's something out there for Everybody's a fucking
Speaker 2: lid for every pot.
Speaker 1: He goes, that's why she's doing this. It's to punish me,
Speaker 1: and I deserve it, and he looks very freaky. He's
Speaker 1: like still very robotic, and Stabler's like, well, what about
Speaker 1: the hitting, and he denies that, and Stabler goes, well,
Speaker 1: your partner's over there spilling to my partner right now,
Speaker 1: So back to the ladies. Benson's like, are you sleeping
Speaker 1: with him? And Mail goes, I'm a lot more likely
Speaker 1: to have an affair with you, Detective Benson.
Speaker 3: So she's a lesbian.
Speaker 1: I'm proud and she is part of Lesbie Strong with
Speaker 1: bab Stuffy. She says, Jamie and things. And this proves
Speaker 1: how emotionally unstable she is. What about Tommy, was he
Speaker 1: pumped to be a dad thrilled? She says he can
Speaker 1: handle stress, He's been through worse. She's like, what do
Speaker 1: you mean? And the partner goes, he was in the
Speaker 1: army reserve in Afghanistan. And Benson's like, oh, if that's
Speaker 1: what affected him, is that maybe what affected him? And
Speaker 1: Veil just kind of shifts her eyes, and so Benson
Speaker 1: takes that as a yes. In the squad room, Munch
Speaker 1: and finnar back from a canvas of the neighbor and
Speaker 1: neighborhood and Callahan is either a great dude or an
Speaker 1: unpredictable bastard.
Speaker 5: It depends on who you talk to. And then this
Speaker 5: is the part that's wild.
Speaker 1: Craigan goes, so, who do we believe and Benson goes, well,
Speaker 1: the wife is questionable, how like, I don't know one
Speaker 1: thing she's done that's been questionable, and Stabler goes, he
Speaker 1: is too, and then Craigan goes if they were a
Speaker 1: civilian couple, and Stabler goes and cut them both loose,
Speaker 1: like what the wife has done? Nothing weird, Like they
Speaker 1: did not make Jamie do something crazy, like, yes, she
Speaker 1: got a little bit heated with the cops because she
Speaker 1: thought they weren't believing her, But she doesn't do anything
Speaker 1: that would indicate an unstable personality at all to me.
Speaker 1: But whatever, maybe they forgot, maybe they had to cut
Speaker 1: that scene and they just didn't want like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: this doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 5: I also, we didn't really chat about it.
Speaker 2: But this guy, the main, Tommy Callahan, he's from oz
Speaker 2: oh Okay.
Speaker 5: He's a big.
Speaker 2: Oz guy, and they I think he's the one where
Speaker 2: like he's part of the Skinheads with JK. Simmons, so
Speaker 2: like they're part of the you know, the racist crew.
Speaker 2: And then he needs dental surgery. We talked to someone
Speaker 2: that was the dentist on this podcast. Oh really, they
Speaker 2: put like a black person's gums and teeth in his
Speaker 2: mouth somehow, I didn't even know that was a surgery
Speaker 2: you can do.
Speaker 3: And then he's like mad about it.
Speaker 2: But I remember I forgot, which guess I should like
Speaker 2: figure out what episode, But we had the dentist be like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I think I did a surgery mixing up gums.
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I remember that. We have to
Speaker 1: figure out who that is. Yeah, that's so funny because
Speaker 1: that just suck out to me because it was insane.
Speaker 1: There's like an the Achilles heel. There was like a
Speaker 1: cut on a basketball court. Like there's a few huge
Speaker 1: injuries and killings that pop out. But like I said,
Speaker 1: you know, I watched it in junior high, so right, right,
Speaker 1: right right, a little yeah, inappropriate age to be watching
Speaker 1: OZ Like me, I will eventually do a fool rewatch
Speaker 1: and I know that, but not yet. You're gonna be like, oh, yes,
Speaker 1: I totally remember, like I don't know, being into Powerpuff
Speaker 1: Girls and watching this scene, Like I can't imagine like
Speaker 1: the memories it's going to bring back for you because
Speaker 1: you watched it so young. But Powerpuff Girls is the
Speaker 1: only thing I could think of. It's probably not even
Speaker 1: your age range. I am getting over a cold and
Speaker 1: I'm on dagwell.
Speaker 2: Other people that like, like I missed SpongeBob, but there
Speaker 2: were my I had ears that loved SpongeBob, So I
Speaker 2: don't really know, like, yeah, I just didn't have cable.
Speaker 3: Yah, yeah, eighth grade, gotcha.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of what you would have been
Speaker 1: obsessed with while watching OZ. Okay, so for some reason,
Speaker 1: they just want to let this couple loose, because that
Speaker 1: all seems normal. It was awesome, Mandavi oh off office
Speaker 1: mom asif momby Yeah, yeah, yeah it was he played
Speaker 1: the doctor that did it. That's so good, awesome, Oh
Speaker 1: my god. Okay, so they're about to let this couple go,
Speaker 1: which sounds good. A pregnant woman who says her husband
Speaker 1: raped her. He's an unaffected cop, talking in a full
Speaker 1: monotone like a detached zombie.
Speaker 3: This sounds good, Let's let them go.
Speaker 1: This makes total sense for both Stabler and Benson's intuitions.
Speaker 5: And I'm being very sarcastic. It makes no sense.
Speaker 1: So it walks Captain Barbara Piers from the seven to four.
Speaker 1: She thanks, thanks for handling this, Captain Craigan, thanks for
Speaker 1: handling this this way, you know, And they're gonna cut
Speaker 1: Callahan loose. She goes, I'm gonna put him on modified duty.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get him help. Tommy comes out and tells
Speaker 1: the captain it's all a mistake, and he goes, can
Speaker 1: I get my weapon back? And everyone just kind of
Speaker 1: looks around and Peerce is like, tom come with me,
Speaker 1: and he's like, no, I need my gun and she's
Speaker 1: like step back and he's like, you're putting me up
Speaker 1: modified and then he flips the fuck out. He grabs
Speaker 1: this female captain, throws her on the table, starts punching
Speaker 1: her in the face. He's like a wild animal. Multiple
Speaker 1: dudes have to pull him off of her. He's spitting
Speaker 1: at her, he's calling her a bit. She's screaming I'll
Speaker 1: kill you and why are you doing this to me?
Speaker 1: Over and over again. It's very scary. In the next scene,
Speaker 1: poor Captain Pearce is like icing her face and she's like,
Speaker 1: I'm just thankful this didn't happen in front of my squad,
Speaker 1: and Craigan is like, damn girl, you got nothing to
Speaker 1: be embarrassed about. You took a sucker punch to the
Speaker 1: face and you're still talking like you're good, You're tough.
Speaker 1: In my book, psych Services says Tommy might need to
Speaker 1: be hospitalized. Craigan is like, could this be a combat
Speaker 1: stress situation like PTSD? And they all agree it's lucky
Speaker 1: they didn't send him home to his pregnant wife, right,
Speaker 1: pretty lucky because that could.
Speaker 5: Have been her.
Speaker 1: And Finn walks in and says, iab is on the line.
Speaker 1: A woman just called nine one one and said her
Speaker 1: husband is trying to rape her and it must be
Speaker 1: a cop if Iaby is calling, I don't think they
Speaker 1: specify that, but yes, it's a cop.
Speaker 3: The gang rushes to the scene.
Speaker 1: There is a muscleman in who's shirtless on his front lawn.
Speaker 1: He's got a gun in his hand. He's sweating and
Speaker 1: he's crying and he's going, I'm not me, I'm not me.
Speaker 1: His name is Wes Myers. There's another cop calmly trying
Speaker 1: to talk him down. He's like, Wes, where's Kendra, where's Anthony?
Speaker 1: And the guy just keeps crying I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: But then he says she's dead, and then he's like,
Speaker 1: what's wrong with me?
Speaker 5: What did I do?
Speaker 1: Suddenly his young son, Anthony, who's like ten, walks out
Speaker 1: of the house and is like, Dad.
Speaker 3: Dad, where's mom?
Speaker 5: What's going on?
Speaker 1: And then the dad is just I mean, like, there's
Speaker 1: a full cop stand off going on outside his house.
Speaker 1: And the cops keep going. Son get back in the
Speaker 1: house and he's like, Dad, are you mad at me?
Speaker 1: And then the Wes just cannot handle the are you
Speaker 1: mad at me? And he just puts the gun to
Speaker 1: his head and he fires and he drops to the ground.
Speaker 3: Anthony obviously freaking out.
Speaker 1: Stabler swoops in with the dad hug as usual and
Speaker 1: is like hugging the ten year old child. As we
Speaker 1: fade to commercial, we don't know what's happened. Top of
Speaker 1: AC two, we find out Wes Myers is a cop
Speaker 1: in the Bronx, but he actually survived the gunshot wound.
Speaker 1: So they're at the hospital. The doctors think he might live.
Speaker 1: The wife is dead. She was shot point blank in
Speaker 1: the back of the head. And so the kid Anthony
Speaker 1: is with acs. Two cops both attack their wives. What's
Speaker 1: the connection. Turns out Wes was on leave until two
Speaker 1: days ago and because he was in Done Done Afghanistan,
Speaker 1: just like Callahan was. So Stabler is now talking to
Speaker 1: the cop that was trying to talk West down, and
Speaker 1: that's his partner, and he's super upset because obviously he
Speaker 1: just watched his partner shoot himself and he murdered his wife.
Speaker 1: And he's explaining, yeah, Wes just got back from Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: He's like, he and his wife were a really good family,
Speaker 1: no problems.
Speaker 5: This makes no sense. He loved Kendra.
Speaker 1: So we cut to Kraigan slapping down a copy of
Speaker 1: a paper. I think it's like the New York Sentinel
Speaker 1: or something, and then the paper headline is Cops Gone Crazy.
Speaker 1: I feel like we could have come up with something better,
Speaker 1: Cops gone cuckoo, cops something, you know, like if you're
Speaker 1: a trashy rag, like CoP's Gone Crazy. It's like not exactly,
Speaker 1: you know. And they're like, well, someone's got a big mouth.
Speaker 1: Craigan says, the journalist's name is sherm Hemple and he's
Speaker 1: got a lot of details, and I think that name
Speaker 1: is really funny. Casey walks in with the same newspaper
Speaker 1: and she's like, well, guess listen to this.
Speaker 3: What So I'm still on this guy's page.
Speaker 2: Sorry Tommy Tommy Callahan, and he stopped acting, so I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: that's weird. But then he has other credits. He went
Speaker 2: into cinematography and direction. But then he's still step that
Speaker 2: like ten years ago. So curious, I'm curious if you
Speaker 2: know him. Let us let us know if you guys
Speaker 2: know Tommy Callahan, shoot him my way. Wait is that
Speaker 2: literally Tommy Boy's name Tommy Callahan and Tommy Boy?
Speaker 5: Wait, okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. I need
Speaker 5: to find.
Speaker 1: Out when the movie Tommy Boy came out, and like,
Speaker 1: this feels like a prank.
Speaker 5: What the fuck?
Speaker 3: Nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 1: So the movie Tommy Boy comes out in nineteen ninety five,
Speaker 1: the main character is named Tommy Callahan, and this episode
Speaker 1: comes out ten years later in two thousand and five,
Speaker 1: and they're just like, don't even google it. It's Tommy Callahan.
Speaker 1: We're just calling him that. Okay, that's funny to me.
Speaker 1: And as people know, I do fucking love Tommy Boy.
Speaker 1: New guy's puking in the corner. Oh my god. Okay, anyway,
Speaker 1: so Casey, that got Casey, That got our Casey. So
Speaker 1: Casey Novak walks into the squad. She's got the same newspaper,
Speaker 1: CoP's Gone Wild. Everyone's getting an extra extra read all
Speaker 1: about it. There's a little boy on the corner selling it,
Speaker 1: and she goes, well, guess who else saw this? Arthur
Speaker 1: Branch that's her boss, that's played by like the real
Speaker 1: life Senator Fred Thompson. And she's like, so that means
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be a pain in your asses until this
Speaker 1: is all explained. Benson's like, I think it's PTSD. They
Speaker 1: were in the same reserve unit, but they didn't even
Speaker 1: know each other or served together. Like Callahan got back
Speaker 1: eight months ago. West got back three days ago, but
Speaker 1: he'd only been serving for four months. And Stabler's like, well,
Speaker 1: they're usually keeping these guys double their deployment. Why did
Speaker 1: West get let out early? Like why they let this
Speaker 1: guy West home after four months? Go ask Callahan? He's
Speaker 1: an NYU under psyche val and so they send Huang
Speaker 1: to go talk to him. Huang goes in and this
Speaker 1: guy is he's like still zombie, but in a different
Speaker 1: way than he was before. He's like talking to Hwang
Speaker 1: about all these bad dreams he's been having, monsters, spiders
Speaker 1: coming out of his hands. They started a couple months
Speaker 1: after he got back, and he says the medication that
Speaker 1: they have him on right now is helping, the dreams
Speaker 1: aren't as bad, and he has less paranoia about like
Speaker 1: his neighbors spying on him and stuff like that, and
Speaker 1: ena Huang's like well, how's your wife, And he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: she doesn't come see me, she won't even call. I
Speaker 1: don't blame her, he says. Sometimes in the morning when
Speaker 1: he shaves, he puts the razor to his neck and
Speaker 1: he thinks if he could just push harder, He's like,
Speaker 1: it would hardly hurt it all. And oh, no, that's
Speaker 1: definitely suicidal ideation. Not great, not great. Huang is now
Speaker 1: reporting to the other rest of the gang that he
Speaker 1: doesn't think this is PTSD. He's had no in his
Speaker 1: sleeper eating, no startle reflex. His nightmares are vivid and bizarre,
Speaker 1: like hallucinations, and he has paranoia with suicidal ideation. If
Speaker 1: it was just him, Huang's like, I would say it
Speaker 1: was Schitzo effective disorder. But with the two guys here
Speaker 1: having basically the same type of thing, it must be
Speaker 1: an environmental cause. Like, there's no way that would be
Speaker 1: the chance of them having the exact same disorder would
Speaker 1: be very slim to none. Sabler says, well, the Marines
Speaker 1: gave me a physical when I got out, so I
Speaker 1: bet the army does the same thing. Now we're at
Speaker 1: the base clinic talking to doctor Trainer, and he is
Speaker 1: explaining that the Department of Defense lets post deployment physicals
Speaker 1: be optional now.
Speaker 3: And he is played.
Speaker 1: By John Dawsett, who is also in the episode Wanderlust
Speaker 1: and that's the episode with the home improvement mom and
Speaker 1: he plays her creepy boyfriend who sells prom dresses at
Speaker 1: the department store and he stole a dead guy's like
Speaker 1: social security numbers so he could sell prom dresses.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 2: And he is the sports guy in Sex and the
Speaker 2: City that's Samantha, you know, likes the nixt four.
Speaker 1: But then rather sees the begins. Yeah, he watches baseball.
Speaker 1: Oh fucking sports guy, all right. So he's like, I
Speaker 1: can't show you guys the surveys.
Speaker 5: You'd have to talk to the unit commander.
Speaker 1: And now the unit commander's like, oh, I wish I
Speaker 1: could help, but blah blah blah, I can't release medical records,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. You got to talk to the general.
Speaker 1: And Munch is like, ah, military bureaucracy. And the guy
Speaker 1: was like, I bet this is combat stress. A lot
Speaker 1: of guys have a hard time getting back into society.
Speaker 1: So now they're back talking to the doctor and he's like,
Speaker 1: there's nothing I can do to help you, and Stabler's like,
Speaker 1: I was a marine.
Speaker 3: I know about the need for discretion.
Speaker 1: But there is a pattern here, and this guy trainer goes,
Speaker 1: you got to take it up with the Pentagon.
Speaker 3: Sorry.
Speaker 1: So back at the precinct, Stabler is hitting another dead
Speaker 1: end with military channels. Craigan says, to pull up the
Speaker 1: Sentinel's website, which is the paper from the Cops Gone
Speaker 1: Wild article. They released a copy of the next morning
Speaker 1: cover and it says coward cop with a photo of
Speaker 1: Wes Myers. He was court martialed for cowardice and that
Speaker 1: the same reporter reported on this. And his name is
Speaker 1: Sherman Hemple. So Maloney is sick of they. He's like,
Speaker 1: get Sherman here, we got to talk to this guy.
Speaker 1: So they go behind us, Oh, Sherman's They go behind
Speaker 1: a hotel and they find Sherman digging through the trash
Speaker 1: of a dumpster behind uee sexual and he is John Burnhall,
Speaker 1: who plays the brother from the Bear.
Speaker 3: Who is dude?
Speaker 2: John went to study at the Moscow Art Theater School
Speaker 2: in Moscow, Russia.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 2: He also played professional baseball in the European Professional Baseball Federation.
Speaker 3: What the fuck whoa, that's very stone of him.
Speaker 5: There this guy.
Speaker 2: While in Moscow, he was noticed by the director of
Speaker 2: Harvard University's Institute for Advanced Theater Training at the American
Speaker 2: Repertory Theater and was invited to obtain his MFA.
Speaker 3: There no wonder, he said, not.
Speaker 1: Of the podcast scouted at Harvard, scouted by Harvard in Russia.
Speaker 5: Amazing, amazing, I am, I am dead.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 5: He is in like a lot of stuff. My husband
Speaker 5: has seen, but I have not. Really. I would only
Speaker 5: say I know him mostly from The Bear.
Speaker 2: Now his nose has been broken and reported fourteen times.
Speaker 2: I mean, I keep I wo wow. One of his
Speaker 2: favorite films is Silence of the Lambs.
Speaker 1: Ah, we have a lot in common, all right, amazing
Speaker 1: anymore burnt all bits?
Speaker 5: No, I'm gonna go Okay.
Speaker 3: So he tells the police.
Speaker 1: He's like, quit the police Intimidation Act and try to
Speaker 1: save another Why don't you tru go try to save
Speaker 1: another fellow officer from a government frame up and stablers
Speaker 1: running after him bringing it.
Speaker 2: I'm so crazy, Kara, you know him from the Bear
Speaker 2: because he's only in five episodes.
Speaker 3: I know, but what is he in?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: No, I'm just saying what a perform Yes, you're not
Speaker 2: watching the Punisher.
Speaker 3: That's his big Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1: Like like Jared is like whenever I because I brought
Speaker 1: him up before, and I go, he's I've seen him
Speaker 1: on like Instagram, and I'm like, who is this guy?
Speaker 1: And Jared's like the Punisher like like people know him,
Speaker 1: I just don't, you know. So they run after the
Speaker 1: Punisher and he's like, they're like, how about this poor kid, Anthony,
Speaker 1: he just lost his whole family. Why don't you like,
Speaker 1: you know, why don't you walk away? But give me
Speaker 1: a call when you get a conscience. And then Sherman
Speaker 1: sighs and goes all right, start asking about quinium and
Speaker 1: they're like, what's quinnium? And he goes the new agent
Speaker 1: orange and then Stabler gets a call on his flip
Speaker 1: phone back at the psych word bad news. Callahan has
Speaker 1: taken his own life, and not in a chill way.
Speaker 1: He has run headfirst into a wall twice, the second
Speaker 1: time breaking his neck, and Stabler's like, you gotta really
Speaker 1: want to die to do it that way, and Melinda goes,
Speaker 1: no one in their right mind wants this. Whoever this
Speaker 1: guy used to be he wasn't that man anymore. So
Speaker 1: uh dramatic, A dramatic distillation of the vibe from a
Speaker 1: Melinda as usual.
Speaker 3: So top of AC three.
Speaker 1: Back at the precinct, the guy sorry, I'm like so
Speaker 1: crazy today. Okay, top of AC three. Back we're all
Speaker 1: the little nuts. You're blowing your nose.
Speaker 2: I think Casey just took robotessin and I'm eating a
Speaker 2: big mac. So we're all struggling in our own ways today.
Speaker 1: One well yeah, So now back at the precinct, the
Speaker 1: gang is chatting about quinium, which is an anti malarial
Speaker 1: drug with some pretty serious side effects. Message Boards say nightmares, paranoia,
Speaker 1: psychotic behavior, like, it's all like part of the quinium package.
Speaker 1: It's all in the tiny print at the or the
Speaker 1: very fast voice that reads it at the end of
Speaker 1: the ad. Munch gives the low down. Remember there was
Speaker 1: a string of murders on an army base in two
Speaker 1: thousand and two. Four soldiers killed their wives in six weeks,
Speaker 1: three took their own lives. At least two of those
Speaker 1: took quinium. Elliott's like, yeah, but there were marital problems
Speaker 1: in those cases, and Munch was like, yeah, well there's
Speaker 1: marital problem, elliot, and then they're stabbing your wife seventy
Speaker 1: times and setting her on fire, like you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Like there's a little bit of like a difference,
Speaker 1: and Stabler's getting hot and bothered by the insinuation that
Speaker 1: the military would possibly mistreat their own men. It's like,
Speaker 1: have you looked into the Catholic church, sir? And he's like,
Speaker 1: why would the military poison their own troops? And you know,
Speaker 1: he's pointing out, He's like, quinium is not experimental. The
Speaker 1: FDA has approved it, but they have forced The FDA
Speaker 1: has forced Uinium to change its warning label two times
Speaker 1: in the past four years. Casey's like, I wonder why.
Speaker 1: So Casey goes to the drug company and talks to
Speaker 1: some suit who's like, this is a safe drug.
Speaker 3: Good day.
Speaker 1: And Casey's like, yeah, but didn't the FDA recently make
Speaker 1: you cite suicide as a potential side effect. And he's like,
Speaker 1: there's no proof that it causes that, and she's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's on your label, so why did you add it?
Speaker 1: And he said it's all legal, And Casey goes, look,
Speaker 1: I've got two Army reservists. One is dead, one who
Speaker 1: tried really hard to be dead, and I want to
Speaker 1: see if they were given this drug with very serious
Speaker 1: side effects, and he goes, all drugs have side effect.
Speaker 1: He says, the benefits outweigh the risks, and then Casey's like,
Speaker 1: till when how many people need to murder or take
Speaker 1: their own lives or commit sexual assault before this is
Speaker 1: like a problem. And then the guy's like, can you
Speaker 1: prove that these men took quinium? And Casey's like, okay, wow,
Speaker 1: so we've gone from it's safe to it's within federal
Speaker 1: compliance too. They might not have even taken it, like, sir,
Speaker 1: I can see that you're full of lies. And he's
Speaker 1: basically like, you need to leave. And then an assistant
Speaker 1: comes in, going, I'm so sorry. The police called for you,
Speaker 1: miss Novak. They said it's urgent. And then this guy's like, whatever,
Speaker 1: walk her out anyway, I want her gone, and then
Speaker 1: she goes, well, i'll call you when I get my answer,
Speaker 1: and he goes to what and she goes to if
Speaker 1: Wes Myers took quiniam. He's awake, and the suitman looks
Speaker 1: very nervous because U oh was kind of hoping that
Speaker 1: guy never woke up to tell the tale. And now
Speaker 1: they're talking to Wes in the hospital. Not a single
Speaker 1: light is on in the room. I don't know if
Speaker 1: this guy has light sensitivity from his surgery, but it
Speaker 1: is the darkest scene I've ever seen, Like a night
Speaker 1: light is peering into the side of this room, and
Speaker 1: we can see that Wes has an all the way
Speaker 1: around the head bandage Aliza special and he says, the
Speaker 1: whole thing is like a dream. Now, we were just
Speaker 1: having dinner. Kendra was talking and then I just get
Speaker 1: this feeling that she's having an affair with this guy
Speaker 1: she works with. And they're like, oh, is it a
Speaker 1: voice in your head? And he goes no, But I
Speaker 1: was just sure, like it just came over me. I
Speaker 1: was sure. I started screaming and chasing her. She locked
Speaker 1: herself in the bedroom. I could hear her on the
Speaker 1: phone and I thought she was talking to the guy
Speaker 1: she's having an affair with, so I broke the door down.
Speaker 1: She was crying, begging me not to hurt Anthony. This
Speaker 1: guy's obviously very upset. I'm not doing an invitation of
Speaker 1: his voice correctly.
Speaker 3: He is very upset.
Speaker 1: Telling the story, Novak asks, have you ever taken Quinniam
Speaker 1: and he goes, yeah, manic mondays, and everybody's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't like the sound of that. That doesn't sound
Speaker 1: like a fun eighties song. And he's like, every Monday,
Speaker 1: some meda.
Speaker 2: You will not believe how close and exact so much
Speaker 2: of this is to the real story. Oh really yeah,
Speaker 2: like manic Monday is used like the exact word, like
Speaker 2: the exact car.
Speaker 5: Like this is really specific.
Speaker 3: Wow, Oh, I can't wait to hear about it.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, and get mad, but uh so, he says,
Speaker 1: every Monday, some medic stands at the end of the
Speaker 1: chow line gives them a pill.
Speaker 3: A lot of the guys got really edgy.
Speaker 1: He says that his bug mates reported that he would
Speaker 1: be jumping on his cot, wave his gun around, yell
Speaker 1: about insurgents. He doesn't remember any of it. And he's like,
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, is that why you got sent home early?
Speaker 1: And he goes, no, one day, I just freaked out.
Speaker 1: I was afraid to leave base camp. My CEO told
Speaker 1: me to get over it. Next thing I knew, they
Speaker 1: were shipping me home and calling me a coward. And
Speaker 1: they were right. He says, look at me. I killed
Speaker 1: my wife my son has nobody. Now I deserve everything
Speaker 1: I get and he's crying. It's really sad, like this
Speaker 1: guy does not understand what has happened to him. So
Speaker 1: now Stabler and Novak are walking the hospital hall and
Speaker 1: Stabler's like, you cannot put this guy in Jill for murder.
Speaker 1: The army was responsible for him, like trusted them. They
Speaker 1: betrayed him, and Casey's like, yeah, but he didn't have
Speaker 1: to take the drug, and Stabler's like, he didn't have
Speaker 1: any choice. You give up everything for them, You leave
Speaker 1: your family because you believe it's your duty to the
Speaker 1: Core and to your country. And when you get home,
Speaker 1: you think it's going to be like it was before,
Speaker 1: but everyone's moved on and you're not getting that year back.
Speaker 1: So Stabler's clearly having some conflicting and conflicting feelings about
Speaker 1: his military time.
Speaker 3: And Stable's right though.
Speaker 1: He goes, he had a right to know what Quineum
Speaker 1: might do to him, and Casey goes, it's called informed consent.
Speaker 1: There was a risk and the army concealed it. I'm
Speaker 1: not charging the Pentagon for rape and murder, but I'd
Speaker 1: settle for a way to plead Wes out Stabler says,
Speaker 1: and to stop the military from giving out that drug.
Speaker 1: So Casey's like, I want to talk to Sherm and
Speaker 1: so Shehrm comes bouncing into the precinct like it's payback time.
Speaker 5: He's good.
Speaker 3: He's got a lot of bravado, this guy.
Speaker 1: He's like, I want everything you know on the record
Speaker 1: about Quiniam and they're like, we don't even know that much.
Speaker 3: That's why we called you in here.
Speaker 1: And then he calls Munch of Novak, Moulder, and Scully,
Speaker 1: which is considering I love this moment, but also Munch
Speaker 1: was on The X Files one time as Munch, so
Speaker 1: it's a kind of a funny little moment. So Novak
Speaker 1: is like, look, I love the First Amendment, huge fan,
Speaker 1: but I also like preventing the deaths of soldiers. And
Speaker 1: Munch is like, what if she drags you in front
Speaker 1: of a judge and starts using words like patriot, homeland
Speaker 1: and security. I don't I honestly had to watch this
Speaker 1: like four different times. I didn't really understand what they're
Speaker 1: threatening the guy with, Like are they telling him like
Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna tell the judge that you're a
Speaker 1: terrorist if you don't help us, like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: but he goes, you would take advantage of terrorism fears
Speaker 1: to circumvent the Bill of Rights. That's despicable, And Stabler's like,
Speaker 1: no more despicable than writing fake stories. Elmer Fudd, who
Speaker 1: says despicable? Despicable? That might be it's either Elmer Fudd
Speaker 1: or Daffy Duck, right, Oh it's that. Yeah, yeah, who
Speaker 1: would you rather hang out with? Daffy or Donald the
Speaker 1: Battle Ducks? Daffi's a little easier to understand to me.
Speaker 1: So Shirm goes, I gave you guys a huge tip,
Speaker 1: and Novak goes, yeah, but there's no proof. Maybe the
Speaker 1: army is right and quinium is fine. And then he
Speaker 1: calls Stablers sparky, and he goes, hey, Sparky, remember that
Speaker 1: spike in military suicides in two thousand and three.
Speaker 3: Guess what else spiked that year?
Speaker 1: Prescriptions for quinium and the military they were up to
Speaker 1: thirty five thousand. They stopped prescribing quinium in Iraq and
Speaker 1: Kuwait and the suicide rate tumbled. And Munch is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well they were also giving military guys better healthcare. It's like,
Speaker 1: were they? And Shirm goes, they only prescribe it in Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: Stand now, why would they stop it in Iraq and
Speaker 1: Kuwait if there was nothing wrong with it?
Speaker 3: So we all want the truth to come out.
Speaker 1: You can either help us or step aside, and Novak
Speaker 1: says to him. Finally he hands them a thumb drive.
Speaker 1: So he came with all the information. He came with
Speaker 1: a thumb drug full of everything. And then he's like,
Speaker 1: all right, fine, and he goes you want to see
Speaker 1: how far down the rabbit hole goes? And as they say, so,
Speaker 1: there we go, there's the thumb drive. In the thumb
Speaker 1: drive is a matrix aka an Excel spreadsheet. I didn't
Speaker 1: realize I was so my hobby was matrixes. I should
Speaker 1: say that instead of Excel sounds cooler. I'm really into
Speaker 1: making matrixes and you know, stuff like that. So it's
Speaker 1: a matrix for Fort Crompton, which sounds like a fake
Speaker 1: military base, but it's a list of all of the
Speaker 1: side effects of the soldiers taking Quiniam and it only
Speaker 1: goes back three months.
Speaker 5: And they're like, how can we even tell if this
Speaker 5: is real?
Speaker 1: And Reuben Morales, friend of the pod, is there, and
Speaker 1: he tells them that the last person to modify this
Speaker 1: document was p Trainer. And that's the doctor who's the
Speaker 1: Samantha Sports guy. Like, that's the guy they've been talking
Speaker 1: to the whole time, who's been telling them he can't
Speaker 1: give him any information. And Benson and his stable are like,
Speaker 1: that guy won't talk to us. In case He's like, well,
Speaker 1: he'll talk to me. So then Casey gets to the
Speaker 1: base and she's having some trouble getting in and the
Speaker 1: guy at the gate is like, I'm sorry, miss Novak.
Speaker 1: The doctor can't see you. He only treats military personnel.
Speaker 1: And she's like, yeah, I'm not dumb, Like I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to get an appointment. I'm trying to meet with
Speaker 1: him and I already had it set and they're like, sorry,
Speaker 1: you need to leave. Here's a list of referrals. And
Speaker 1: she's like, wait, but just go ask the doctor. She's
Speaker 1: fighting whatever. Then I think she finally realizes check the envelope, dummy.
Speaker 1: So she opens the envelope and there is a message inside.
Speaker 1: Next thing we know, Casey is meeting Trainer the doctor
Speaker 1: at the Central Park Zoo. What a fun place to shoot.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited they do this. He says, you can't
Speaker 1: come to my house or the base or attempt to
Speaker 1: contact me ever again, is that clear? And he's like,
Speaker 1: I cannot help you. It was never supposed to go
Speaker 1: this far. And she's like, you contacted the press. You
Speaker 1: know this is wrong. You can't change anything, but I can.
Speaker 1: And he's like, I have taken care of eight men
Speaker 1: with damage to their brain stem resulting in balance disorders
Speaker 1: and psychological side effects. Some from Afghanistan, some from Kuwait,
Speaker 1: some from Iraq. They all took quinium. Some of them
Speaker 1: stopped taking the drug months before they noticed any of
Speaker 1: these symptoms, and because they were psychological symptoms, many of
Speaker 1: them did not seek out any healthcare about it because
Speaker 1: there's no confidentiality in the army. It all goes on
Speaker 1: your record, and weak minds don't get promoted. Casey says like,
Speaker 1: which is very fucked up. Like people in the military
Speaker 1: are absolutely probably forced to hide a lot of psychological
Speaker 1: things that are going on with them because everything goes
Speaker 1: into their record. So this guy goes, We've known about
Speaker 1: this since Somalia, and she's like, well, if it was
Speaker 1: this bad, why keep giving it? And that is when
Speaker 1: I realize that they are standing in front of a
Speaker 1: penguin exhibit, and I love it. They're just like talking
Speaker 1: about quinium as these little penguins are flapping their wings
Speaker 1: and what a treat. So he's like, listen, malaria is
Speaker 1: a problem. There's four malaria drugs that work. Three of
Speaker 1: them need to be taken daily. Quinium is the only
Speaker 1: one that's once a week. So it's much easier to
Speaker 1: ensure that soldiers take it if we only have to
Speaker 1: give it to them on Manic mondays, right, And then
Speaker 1: you know, it's like malaria is very deadly, so we're
Speaker 1: talking about thousands of dead soldiers versus a few with
Speaker 1: a bad reaction. Novak's like, I need more documents, and
Speaker 1: Trainer goes, you have everything I have, and she goes, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll just need a subpoena them from JAG, a different
Speaker 1: TV show about military crime.
Speaker 3: So no a.
Speaker 1: JAG is stands for Judge Advocate General's Corps, which is
Speaker 1: JAG Corps, and it's the government law firm that represents
Speaker 1: the legal interests of the US Army and its soldiers.
Speaker 3: I didn't know that, but there was a whole show
Speaker 3: called JAG Forever.
Speaker 1: She needs to know what's a subpoena and she's gonna
Speaker 1: file criminal charges and he's like, bitch, you are crazy.
Speaker 1: You have no authority to do that. She's like, I
Speaker 1: have you and your testimony, and he's like, you absolutely
Speaker 1: do not have me. He's like, I will, I will
Speaker 1: not testify. I will not be doing anything publicly. My
Speaker 1: career is over. And she's like, dog, you agree to
Speaker 1: me with me. I'm a district I'm an assistant district attorney.
Speaker 1: You never has to speak off the record. You fucking
Speaker 1: came to the zoo in uniform. Like what is your deal.
Speaker 1: She's like, you're so worried about your career. Maybe this
Speaker 1: isn't the fucking career for you, because you know this
Speaker 1: is wrong. And he has this look on his face
Speaker 1: that's like, ugh, fuck morality, you got me. And then
Speaker 1: he's like casualty lists, deployment lists, adverse event reports with
Speaker 1: names not serial numbers, raw data from this Quinium study.
Speaker 1: He's basically telling her all the shit he's going to
Speaker 1: get for her. In the next scene, we're at Casey's
Speaker 1: office and she's basically been barricaded into her office by
Speaker 1: boxes of paperwork which the military has sent in an
Speaker 1: attempt to bury her in paperwork. She requested about fifty
Speaker 1: documents and they just sent her everything, like they sent
Speaker 1: her food service reports, like all kinds of shit that
Speaker 1: she's got to dig her way out of. And Casey's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it'll take me years to find the documents that I
Speaker 1: actually requested. And Munch and Elliott are like, you're taking
Speaker 1: this well, and she goes, oh, they're not getting away
Speaker 1: with this. I'm indicting the US Army with rape and murder.
Speaker 1: And Stabler is like, girl, you are nuts, and she goes,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get an indictment.
Speaker 5: I just want people to pay attention. I think this
Speaker 5: will work.
Speaker 1: So at that moment, Arthur Branch, the DA who was
Speaker 1: played by Friend Thompson, pokes his head and goes conference room. Now,
Speaker 1: so she got somebody's attention. Stabler's like, what was that?
Speaker 1: And Casey goes, probably just about another subpoena I sent out,
Speaker 1: and he goes food. She goes Donald Rumsfeld. So I
Speaker 1: kind of love this, and Casey is playing fucking hardball.
Speaker 1: So in a meeting with in an ex partey as
Speaker 1: we love to say, meeting with Branch and Novak, he
Speaker 1: is yelling you better fix it to Casey and she's
Speaker 1: like fix what. He's like, uh, calling the Secretary of
Speaker 1: Defense a murderer, and she explains to him the Pentagon
Speaker 1: is distributing this shit that they know causes psychotic behavior
Speaker 1: and they're trying to hide it. Branch starts to condescend
Speaker 1: to Casey, like, oh, it must be so nice in
Speaker 1: your upper West Side apartment sipping shardenay and shitting on
Speaker 1: the military. Number one, Casey Novak probably hates shardonay just
Speaker 1: like I do. And number two, she does not hate
Speaker 1: the military. Her dad was a doorgunner in Vietnam and
Speaker 1: got a purple heart. She supports the troops, and so
Speaker 1: she wants to stop the government from prescribing a pill
Speaker 1: that could kill them. And he's like, this just doesn't
Speaker 1: make sense. The military would not harm their own soldiers,
Speaker 1: and Casey's like, it's about numbers, Like, you know, a
Speaker 1: few dead soldiers versus all the ones they're saving from malaria.
Speaker 1: They don't really care. And then she's like to bring
Speaker 1: She's like, would you take quinim? Would you let your
Speaker 1: grandchild take it? And he, you know, he gets a
Speaker 1: look like fuck no, and she says, look, I won't
Speaker 1: convene an indicting grand jury, but I'll convene an investigating one.
Speaker 1: I'll let them hear the evidence and see if anyone
Speaker 1: is criminally responsible.
Speaker 3: And he's like, this isn't.
Speaker 1: Going to end well, but okay, now, please tell the
Speaker 1: Secretary of Defense that his presence will not be required.
Speaker 1: So unfortunately, no Donald Rumsfeld cameo in this episode. Now,
Speaker 1: in court Casey is questioning the quinium suit from earlier
Speaker 1: in the episode. The guy, mister Kohler, he works at
Speaker 1: the you know, he makes the drug, the quinium drug,
Speaker 1: and he goes, only one in ten thousand people experiences
Speaker 1: side effects.
Speaker 3: Then she hands him a British study.
Speaker 1: She goes, actually, this study from Britain says that one
Speaker 1: in one hundred and forty people experiences side effects. Then
Speaker 1: she shows him a pamphlet that the FDA has made
Speaker 1: quinium release about the drug and only twenty other prescription drugs,
Speaker 1: she points out, have been mandated to issue a pamphlet
Speaker 1: like this, and it mandates that anyone that takes quinium
Speaker 1: has to be given this pamphlet. Next up is an
Speaker 1: army dude, and I don't really know this guy. I
Speaker 1: think he's the general. He's the guy that's like above
Speaker 1: above Trainer or the doctor. She goes, are you guys
Speaker 1: giving out this pamphlet and he's like, I'm not aware
Speaker 1: of it being given out to the soldiers. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of back and forth with this guy and Casey
Speaker 1: about all this info and how there's only been about
Speaker 1: about this one brigade over the past three years.
Speaker 5: They have all the information about this one brigade.
Speaker 1: Only one man's death in the brigade is attributed to suicide.
Speaker 1: The other causes of death are listed as death by misadventure,
Speaker 1: weapons misfire, and Casey's trying to get this guy to
Speaker 1: admit that these could also have been suicides that other
Speaker 1: soldiers or the army is covering up in general, because
Speaker 1: you know, you could have somebody shoot themselves and then go, oh,
Speaker 1: their weapon misfired or whatever. So it's possible that there
Speaker 1: are more suicides than what's on record.
Speaker 5: Is what Casey's trying to point out.
Speaker 1: Next step, we got doctor Trainer, so he is back
Speaker 1: on the stand and he says, yes, I've treated some
Speaker 1: men with brains stem damage. This is exactly what Casey
Speaker 1: talked about. And then she goes and to what do
Speaker 1: you attribute that? And he says unknown eteology, and Novak
Speaker 1: does a slow head turn to him and the camera
Speaker 1: pans in on her. She is furious and she goes,
Speaker 1: I beg your pardon, and he repeats himself. He's like,
Speaker 1: unknown eteology. Their disorders were caused by factors that cannot
Speaker 1: be scientifically determined.
Speaker 3: Casey starts to get like frantic.
Speaker 1: She's like, are you denying that you previously stated quineum
Speaker 1: exposure caused brainstem damage in eight of your patients, that
Speaker 1: the only thing they all had in common was quinium,
Speaker 1: And he goes, uh, I've since learned that there's other
Speaker 1: stuff like jet fuel exposure, head injury, noise. She goes,
Speaker 1: noise caused a brain stem injury, and she goes, point blank,
Speaker 1: do you think that quinium is safe? And he's like,
Speaker 1: you're not even mentioning how deadly malaria is. Two million
Speaker 1: people die from it each year worldwide, Like every twelve
Speaker 1: seconds a child dies from malaria. So he's trying to
Speaker 1: kind of what about it, you know, and she's like, again,
Speaker 1: is quinium safe? And he goes, all reliable scientific evidence
Speaker 1: says that it is, and you know, not good. She
Speaker 1: was his he was her ace in the hole, and
Speaker 1: now she doesn't have it. So she chases Trainer out
Speaker 1: of that courthouse, asking what happened? Did they get to you?
Speaker 1: Did they threaten you your family? And he's like, you've
Speaker 1: seen too many movies. And she's like, you could have
Speaker 1: come to me. I would have protected you. They wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been able to touch you. And he's like, miss Novak,
Speaker 1: you are very young, and that is not the way
Speaker 1: the world works, and he walks off. So now they're
Speaker 1: at a diner late night. It's Benson, Stabler, and Shrm babe.
Speaker 1: They are all hanging out and he's like, I'm just
Speaker 1: here for moral support. Casey reports the jury found Callahan
Speaker 1: and Meyers both criminally liable for rape and murder, respectively,
Speaker 1: but Branch at least let her cut a deal with
Speaker 1: Myers so that he's going to a psyche facility. So
Speaker 1: this like, you know, at least maybe his son can
Speaker 1: go visit him, and Benson's like, there's no telling how
Speaker 1: long the effects of quidium will last, and Stabler ads
Speaker 1: or who else is next?
Speaker 3: And then they all look at the TV and.
Speaker 1: The diner and there's like a news report troops coming
Speaker 1: home picking up their kids, kissing their wives, and it's
Speaker 1: a heavy moment.
Speaker 5: And that's dick wolf baby fuck.
Speaker 2: One of my favorite tropes of SVU is when Casey
Speaker 2: or Alex Cabot try to take down a company, the military,
Speaker 2: the Pentagon.
Speaker 5: It is my favorite when they bring in the CEOs.
Speaker 1: So, you know, a good episode I sat up, honestly,
Speaker 1: not really a resolve. Yeah yeah, and you're.
Speaker 3: Gonna be pissed. Let's get into it. Let's get ready
Speaker 3: to get ready to get pissed.
Speaker 2: I was just in North Carolina and one of the
Speaker 2: two girls, do you remember in North Carolina there were
Speaker 2: two girls that dressed like SVU, people like yah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: So I ended up signing the photo of all of
Speaker 2: us together from that show. But one of them is
Speaker 2: in the military, and I feel like we talked about
Speaker 2: Fort Bragg and this is wild. So this is all
Speaker 2: in Fort Bragg and it's about military spouse murders and
Speaker 2: of course the related controversial you know, malaria drugs that happened.
Speaker 3: So I'll just get right into it.
Speaker 2: A CBS News article on July twenty first, two thousand
Speaker 2: and two, wrote, in the last in the past six weeks,
Speaker 2: four wives of soldiers at Fort Bragg had been murdered,
Speaker 2: and each death was blamed on the husband. That's an
Speaker 2: insane summer, I would say, for a military base, right, So,
Speaker 2: and then two of those soldiers then took their own
Speaker 2: lives as well, like it was suicide murders. And then
Speaker 2: one ended up taking his own life while in custody.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's fucked.
Speaker 6: So.
Speaker 2: Fort Bragg is the Army's headquarters for Special Forces Special
Speaker 2: operation soldiers, and it's one of the biggest bases. It's
Speaker 2: home to over forty thousand troops, with a lot of
Speaker 2: units that played key roles in the Afghan War. So
Speaker 2: Sergeant first Class Rigo Berto Nives was a soldier in
Speaker 2: the third Special Forces Group. He had been back from
Speaker 2: Afghanistan for just two days when he decided to shoot
Speaker 2: his wife, Teresa and then himself in their bedroom. Neives
Speaker 2: requested some time off, like for a leave for some
Speaker 2: personal problems, and he shot her with a forty caliber
Speaker 2: and then the neighbors said that they were arguing all night.
Speaker 2: According to the Valet Times, the next person was a
Speaker 2: Master Sergeant William Wright of the ninety sixth Civil Affairs Battalion,
Speaker 2: and he reported his wife missing two days after he
Speaker 2: he is.
Speaker 3: The one who strangled her.
Speaker 2: So he strangled Jennifer Gale right on June twenty ninth
Speaker 2: and then reported her missing. She was a mother of
Speaker 2: three and the two had been married for fourteen years.
Speaker 5: She married him super.
Speaker 2: Young, you know, like she was twenty years old, and
Speaker 2: she was just this perfect Christian wife and mother who
Speaker 2: schooled their three sons. And on July nineteenth, he finally
Speaker 2: confessed and led investigators to her body in a Hope
Speaker 2: County in a wooded area and was charged with murder.
Speaker 2: And he buried her on the base near a firing range.
Speaker 5: Oh my god, Okay.
Speaker 2: So then her father, Archie Watson, to CBS News, said
Speaker 2: that Jennifer had been talking about divorce and was over
Speaker 2: the military life, but William Wright did not want to
Speaker 2: let her go. Wilma Watson, her mother, quoted in The
Speaker 2: New York Times, said until he came back from Afghanistan,
Speaker 2: I didn't worry about violence. He was getting these attacks
Speaker 2: of rage. She was afraid of him. He ended up
Speaker 2: hanging himself in jail in March two thousand and three,
Speaker 2: and then the same day Wright was arrested, Sergeant first
Speaker 2: class Brandon Floyd decided to shoot his wife Andrea and
Speaker 2: then took his own life in their home in Stedman,
Speaker 2: And it was the day that she asked for a divorce,
Speaker 2: so he killed her.
Speaker 5: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Floyd was a member of Dela To Force, which was
Speaker 2: a secret of anti terrorism unit based on Fort Bragg,
Speaker 2: and he came back from Afghanistan in January of that year.
Speaker 5: So and their kids.
Speaker 2: Thank god, we're in Ohio visiting relatives during the time
Speaker 2: of their deaths. So, Nieves Right Ann Floyd were all
Speaker 2: assigned to the US Army Special Operations Command. And then
Speaker 2: the fourth one was not in a special group. He
Speaker 2: was Army Sergeant Cedric Ramon Griffin. He was twenty eight
Speaker 2: and he killed his wife. On July ninth. Marilyn Griffin,
Speaker 2: thirty two, was found dead in their burning home.
Speaker 3: So this is from the episode.
Speaker 2: The two kids escaped the fire, but he stabbed her
Speaker 2: fifty times before setting the house on fire, and she
Speaker 2: died by stabbing, So she was dead before the fire.
Speaker 5: But that's like what Munch references in the episode.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh god, it's like there's so many direct polls,
Speaker 2: and so they were estranged at the time and he
Speaker 2: was like living with another woman who was pregnant. So,
Speaker 2: but he confessed after he was arrested. He was charged
Speaker 2: with first degree murder, two counts of attempted first degree
Speaker 2: murder for the daughters, and then first degree arson, according
Speaker 2: to Cumberland County Sheriff Moose Butler.
Speaker 3: And that's to CBS News.
Speaker 2: Yeah, as you know, all the four of these men
Speaker 2: were sergeants and on top of these six deaths, now
Speaker 2: we have nine children with no parents. And then The
Speaker 2: Washington Post reported on July twenty sixth, two thousand and two,
Speaker 2: that an officer assigned to the Army Special Operations Command
Speaker 2: at Fort Bragg was shot and killed that week as
Speaker 2: he slept in his home in Fayetteville. So Major David
Speaker 2: Shannon was shot in the chest and head as he slept.
Speaker 2: The spokesperson for the Special Operations Common Major Gary Colb, said,
Speaker 2: they're gonna look at these individually, and it's like, Okay,
Speaker 2: one summer we call these murderers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's not to.
Speaker 5: Make them at all.
Speaker 2: Colonel Dad Davis, he called the killings to the Los
Speaker 2: Angeles times and quotes an unexpected sequence of events and
Speaker 2: there's no linkage we could find.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 2: Also, yeah, he also said that it's clear that soldiers
Speaker 2: should come and talk and get help, and there's available
Speaker 2: programs for them. And then he goes, we're not looking
Speaker 2: to blame anyone for anything, and it's like, there's four
Speaker 2: dead women, so maybe we should blame someone for something. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And statistics show that domestic violence in the military occurs
Speaker 2: twice the civilian rape, and the army goes out of
Speaker 2: its way not to prosecute domestic abusers, according to Newsweek,
Speaker 2: because under federal law, those convicted would lose their right
Speaker 2: to carry a gun, and then they're not useful as
Speaker 2: being soldiers, so they would rather not and let these
Speaker 2: psychopaths have fucking guns. Colinel Jerome haberak a chaplain.
Speaker 1: Forture really quickly, soa when you're going forward, it's colonel
Speaker 1: that way.
Speaker 2: No, but I can't deal with it. I'm not saying
Speaker 2: it's annoying. It's annoying. I don't care. I don't respect
Speaker 2: my military. And if you were going to keep going,
Speaker 2: you work now.
Speaker 5: I didn't.
Speaker 2: I purposely did not capitalize anyone's names. Anyone's positions. I
Speaker 2: did not capitalize Fort Bragg. I did not capitalize anything
Speaker 2: or use anything. Right, I don't care. I'll call them
Speaker 2: like it doesn't even matter to me. So this guy,
Speaker 2: Jerome Habarack, a chapelain, like I'm not playing your little games.
Speaker 3: Guys like okay, yeah, Like I don't respect them.
Speaker 2: So Jerome Habarack, a chaplain at Fort Bragg, claims in
Speaker 2: The New York Times that counselors are available in the field,
Speaker 2: and soldiers are counseled before they leave on assignment and
Speaker 2: before they return home. But The Washington Post reports that
Speaker 2: in army's most elite units that any contact with mental
Speaker 2: health care providers, any signs of depression or domestic problems
Speaker 2: can ruin careers. And that's according to lawyers, psychologists, educators
Speaker 2: who all work with these troops. Army culture sees it
Speaker 2: as a weakness if you seek help. So a bunch
Speaker 2: of these guys who need treatment don't get it because
Speaker 2: they know will damage their careers. So even though all
Speaker 2: these officials are like, oh, we have all these services
Speaker 2: and stuff like, it still looks poorly on you. And
Speaker 2: then base officials said there had been no deaths attributed
Speaker 2: to domestic violence for two years and so that was
Speaker 2: like a big celebration to win. So for two years
Speaker 2: they had no domestic violence murders, not domestic violence, just
Speaker 2: no one died from it for two years. And that's
Speaker 2: something that they publicly bragged about.
Speaker 5: Wow. Wow. And this cold guy.
Speaker 2: When asked by CBS News of going to Afghanistan caused
Speaker 2: any of this, he said, that's a reach. Local authorities, though,
Speaker 2: said all the cases came with warnings that Lieutenant James E.
Speaker 2: Black of the Cumberland County Sheriff's Office said to the
Speaker 2: LA Times, each of these couples were having serious friction
Speaker 2: and there were definite signs. Lieutenant James E. Black, the sheriff,
Speaker 2: said that these soldiers left with problems and they came
Speaker 2: back with problems. And marital issues don't disappear just because
Speaker 2: you go off to Afghanistan. And I'm like, these are
Speaker 2: not marital issues. This is murder. No marital issue leads
Speaker 2: to murder. Like it is crazy to spread the blame
Speaker 2: onto the woman as well as marital issues.
Speaker 1: One of them was living with another pregnant woman. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and some of them could have been like like some
Speaker 1: of the marital problems could have really been sparked from
Speaker 1: coming back and being like you're having an affair, you're
Speaker 1: doing this, you know, like paranoia and things that are
Speaker 1: like from mental health stuff, you.
Speaker 5: Know, yeah, fucking crazy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so in two thousand and eight, so you know,
Speaker 2: years later, Vanity Fair did a peace on these cases
Speaker 2: and asked were these men unable to leave the war
Speaker 2: behind or did an anti malaria drug turn them psychotic?
Speaker 2: And this is after the episode was this big expose, but.
Speaker 5: It connects.
Speaker 2: So some of those men did take the anti hilaria
Speaker 2: drug Larium, and it does have side effects, and those
Speaker 2: side effects include suicidal behavior, psychotic actions, according to ABC News,
Speaker 2: And according to some woman named Jean lacy Less, she
Speaker 2: was the co director of Larium Action USA and this
Speaker 2: is like an anti larium group, and she said to
Speaker 2: ABC News that the most recent study shows that Larium
Speaker 2: causes side effects in one third of cases. And like
Speaker 2: I said, psychotic actions, paranoia, suicidal behavior. The army denies it,
Speaker 2: but the soldiers they all have little say saying.
Speaker 3: So every day they took the pillow.
Speaker 2: Would be manic Monday or wild Wednesdays, like they knew
Speaker 2: what was them? And so yeah, the other part of
Speaker 2: this case is this larium drug and that's the commercial
Speaker 2: name for the anti malaria drug mephyloquine methhloquin. I feel
Speaker 2: like her brother is gonna have a fun time with me.
Speaker 2: This the next paragrapher. So, so the evidence was largely anecdotal.
Speaker 2: But why are you giving drugs that caused hallucinations, confusion,
Speaker 2: psychotic behavior to people that carry weapons and hold secret clearances?
Speaker 5: Huh?
Speaker 2: And the guy who's asking these questions is George Andreas Pegani, who,
Speaker 2: while in Iraq, became panicked, disoriented, reached for his loaded guns,
Speaker 2: thinking enemies were bursting in his room. So then when
Speaker 2: he asked his superiors for help, they packed him up
Speaker 2: and he faced charges of cowardice, the first case since Vietnam.
Speaker 2: But then once for those charges, he used the defense
Speaker 2: that like the pill made me do it.
Speaker 1: The army dropped all charges. They didn't want anybody looking
Speaker 1: into that.
Speaker 2: So CBS News in two thousand and five reports that
Speaker 2: the Pentagon had stopped giving out the pill, which the
Speaker 2: US military developed. So they developed this formalaria and it
Speaker 2: was dangerous enough that they did stop fucking giving it
Speaker 2: out just the Pentagon. Even though they stopped giving it out,
Speaker 2: the drug is still recommended.
Speaker 3: Well, this was like during that time.
Speaker 2: But the US Center of Disease Control and Prevention and
Speaker 2: the manufacturer, Roche Pharma, says that more than thirty million
Speaker 2: people have used it over twenty years. I don't really know, yeah,
Speaker 2: what to do, but they deny everything, and CBS News
Speaker 2: the spokesperson. The spokesperson said there's no reliable scientific evidence
Speaker 2: that larium is associated with violent acts or criminal conduct.
Speaker 2: In the civilian medical community, the views on the drugs
Speaker 2: are mixed. Some give it to travelers and you know,
Speaker 2: it's chill as fuck, but like to go on a vacation,
Speaker 2: but millions heard of people should not use it, considering
Speaker 2: they already have their own history of psychiatric complications. They
Speaker 2: also are supposed to give those soldiers warnings, but a
Speaker 2: bunch of the soldiers that were interviewed for this two
Speaker 2: thousand and five CBS articles said they were not warned
Speaker 2: at all of any of the side effects. The troops
Speaker 2: in Kuwait in nineteen eighty one were like given another
Speaker 2: drug called chloro Queen, but the commanders chose larium anyways
Speaker 2: because they only have to take it once a week
Speaker 2: rather than daily like the dox sicilian whatever that was,
Speaker 2: Like doxy cycliclin, whose main side effect is sensitivity to sunlight.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's neither here nor there. But also,
Speaker 2: there isn't really malaria in Iraq.
Speaker 5: Really.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's strange to take such a big precaution on
Speaker 1: something that isn't really a need over there. Laura Howell
Speaker 1: is now a widow with two children, and she blames
Speaker 1: larium for what happened after her husband, a veteran Green Beret,
Speaker 1: returned home in March two thousand and four. Chief Warrant
Speaker 1: Officer William Howell went from normal to murderous in a
Speaker 1: half hour and ended his life in his front yard.
Speaker 3: With a bullet to the head.
Speaker 5: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Critics of the drug believe Larium is connected to the
Speaker 2: surge and military suicides in two thousand and three, when
Speaker 2: twenty three people deployed took their own lives, and then
Speaker 2: after larium was halted any rock the suicide rate draw. Wow,
Speaker 2: just like they said, I so is the evidence anecdotal
Speaker 2: or what? Because this doesn't seem very anecdotal to me. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and with fort Bragg. These articles don't stop like this
Speaker 2: episodes from two thousand and five, but like shit is
Speaker 2: still going down there. So with this case, it's like
Speaker 2: was it the drug or was it someone that committed
Speaker 2: a crime and then is trying to get out of it,
Speaker 2: Like I don't really know. But in twenty eighteen, a
Speaker 2: soldier asked the Supreme Court to consider that the malaria
Speaker 2: drug may have played a role in his murder of
Speaker 2: sixteen Afghan civilians. So Sergeant Robert Bales in twenty thirteen
Speaker 2: was sentenced to life without parole by a military jury.
Speaker 2: But he was taking this drug, and the lawyers do
Speaker 2: thing it contributed to his behavior. And so this drug,
Speaker 2: Mephila queen, was developed by the army in the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 2: It's not new, and it's been linked to disturbing neurological
Speaker 2: and psychiatric side effects since then. It's just hard because
Speaker 2: in the four Fort Bragg cases that we're talking about
Speaker 2: up top, only two of the men were on the drug,
Speaker 2: not all of them.
Speaker 3: So it's like hard to.
Speaker 2: Say it was the drug when two of them didn't
Speaker 2: do it all these killings. The Washington Post said, echo,
Speaker 2: I do not use the word echo, but they did,
Speaker 2: they echo like past cases. So the most notorious slang
Speaker 2: ever at Fort Bragg was in this nineteen seventy killing.
Speaker 2: This guy killed his wife and two daughters. Yeah, Captain
Speaker 2: Jeffrey MacDonald, who was a Special Forces doctor, and he
Speaker 2: was convicted in nineteen seventy nine for the crime. And
Speaker 2: there were other instances of murderous violence at Fort Bragg
Speaker 2: before this deadly summer. So in October nineteen ninety five,
Speaker 2: William Brutzer Junior opened fire on fellow members of the
Speaker 2: eighty second Airborne who were on a morning run, and
Speaker 2: he killed an officer and wounded eighteen other soldiers. Then
Speaker 2: that same year ninety five, just a few months later,
Speaker 2: in December three, white Fort Bragg soldiers shot and killed
Speaker 2: a black couple in Fayetteville in a racist skinhead initiation.
Speaker 5: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: And that is reported by the Washington Post according to
Speaker 2: prosecutors of the case. And the none of this is isolated,
Speaker 2: Like I said, so in two thousand and eight from
Speaker 2: NBC News at this article starts off in quotes.
Speaker 3: This is a two thousand and eight NBC article.
Speaker 2: For the third time in four months, a female soldier
Speaker 2: based at Fort Bragg is dead and a husband or
Speaker 2: lover is charged with murder. So that's two thousand and eight.
Speaker 2: So all the four crimes I told you the murder
Speaker 2: of Summer, that's two thousand and two. And they're saying like, oh,
Speaker 2: we're fine, We're fine. And then in two thousand and eight,
Speaker 2: like three other women in four months are killed by
Speaker 2: a partner. Yeah, and again officials that Fort Bragg said
Speaker 2: deaths are unrelated, regardless of any tragic similarities. Carol Darby,
Speaker 2: a spokesperson for the Army Special Operations Command, said the
Speaker 2: Army had no reason to be overly concerned for the
Speaker 2: personal safety of female soldiers. I think those dead ones
Speaker 2: would disagree. And then there's a Connecticut based foundation called
Speaker 2: Miles Foundation and that it provides domestic violence assistance to
Speaker 2: military wives. It is such a huge issue that there's
Speaker 2: a whole foundation to help these women, and yet the
Speaker 2: military just does not want to acknowledge it. And she
Speaker 2: said that her case slowed quadrupled during the wars in
Speaker 2: the Iraq and Afghanistan. And this Darby bitch continues to
Speaker 2: NBC News that there are no indicators that we are
Speaker 2: aware of that pinpoint and trend.
Speaker 3: This is an anomaly.
Speaker 2: How is it an anomaly when it keeps being patterned
Speaker 2: and happening all the time.
Speaker 3: It's so confusing to me.
Speaker 2: And like I said, the drama does not end, So
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about some stuff that happened after
Speaker 2: this episode. But Rolling Stone has done a few giant articles.
Speaker 2: But one was in April twenty twenty one that said
Speaker 2: forty four Fort Bragg's soldiers died stateside in twenty twenty,
Speaker 2: and several of them were homicides, and the families want
Speaker 2: answers and the army is giving any. Then there's a
Speaker 2: People magazine article from December twenty twenty, and it is
Speaker 2: about a Fort Bragg soldier who shot his pregnant wife
Speaker 2: in front of their daughter before taking.
Speaker 5: His own life.
Speaker 2: Another Fort Bragg soldier was charged in a twenty twenty
Speaker 2: with manslaughter of his wife. On Christmas Eve, October twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one, a soldier station at Fort Bragg was charged
Speaker 2: with murder for shooting his pregnant girlfriend while she drove
Speaker 2: on a Georgia highway. And that's according to NBC News.
Speaker 3: Then another full.
Speaker 2: Rolling Stone expos in twenty twenty two centers around a
Speaker 2: case where a soldier, Enrique Roman Martinez, became one of
Speaker 2: the dozens of Fort Bragg soldiers to die recently under
Speaker 2: unexplained circumstances.
Speaker 3: He was beheaded.
Speaker 5: What the fuck?
Speaker 3: He was beheaded? Dude, and none of us.
Speaker 1: You're in the military and your husband goes babe, we're
Speaker 1: transferred to Fort Bragg.
Speaker 5: What do you do?
Speaker 1: I mean, run for the fucking hills. Yeah, why would
Speaker 1: you go there? This is like a death camp. Jesus. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's fucking disgusting.
Speaker 2: And with Stabler being like, why would the military wanna
Speaker 2: hurt their people.
Speaker 1: They don't give a fuck. They don't give a fuck.
Speaker 1: They'll explode your fucking children oversea. They do not care.
Speaker 2: And I don't know why if they send you over
Speaker 2: to die for oil money, Like, what makes you think
Speaker 2: they care about this. I'm sure this Roche laboratories or
Speaker 2: something has a deal with the military.
Speaker 3: I'm sure they're all investing.
Speaker 2: I'm sure everyone in the Pentagon is investing in these
Speaker 2: medical companies.
Speaker 3: It's like that.
Speaker 2: Woman in Georgia in Congress that started like investing in
Speaker 2: Zoom and masks and shit, knowing that COVID was gonna happen.
Speaker 3: Like these people, there has to be more to it.
Speaker 2: They're fucking denial and it's it's disgusting, and like I said,
Speaker 2: there's no surprise.
Speaker 3: This is not isolated.
Speaker 2: Studies have shown that military couples have a higher rate
Speaker 2: of domestic abuse, sometimes two or even five times more
Speaker 2: than the general public.
Speaker 1: They want to deny it. They're all fucking delulu.
Speaker 2: Retired Air Force Colonel John Carney is quoted in the
Speaker 2: La Times saying, I don't think our jobs create unique
Speaker 2: problems that would make someone to do this.
Speaker 3: There's more stress for all of us these days. What
Speaker 3: are you talking about.
Speaker 1: Definitely murdering their wives because milk is a little bit
Speaker 1: more expensive than usual, for sure.
Speaker 2: But my thing is like they're asking like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: we're not unique, we don't have unique problems, but try
Speaker 2: to treat a military person like their regular Yeah, they
Speaker 2: want to be fucking treated special. They're boarding the place,
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, thank you so much for your service.
Speaker 3: You're doing so much.
Speaker 1: But now all of a sudden you're saying, oh no, no,
Speaker 1: our jobs are just the same thing.
Speaker 3: They're not working at a bank.
Speaker 2: There's no unique problems, So then stop wanting special treatment,
Speaker 2: which one is it are you? Are you thank you
Speaker 2: for your service or are you just any other job
Speaker 2: and nothing is connected. I can't believe all this information
Speaker 2: is publicly out there, all of these stories.
Speaker 3: No one gives a shit.
Speaker 2: Fuck the military, fuck Fort Bragg, and yeah, fuck fuck
Speaker 2: everyone crazy and.
Speaker 5: All these people think they support the troops. No, you don't.
Speaker 2: If you supported the troops, you would not support this
Speaker 2: kind of shit. Fort Bragg should be shut down. Your
Speaker 2: soldier is found beheaded and it's business as usual. There's
Speaker 2: a woman buried on your fucking property.
Speaker 5: And you had no idea. You're the military.
Speaker 3: My brother's been there.
Speaker 1: I think my brother was at Fort Bragg first in
Speaker 1: North Carolina. I'm sure, no, I mean now he's in
Speaker 1: the reserve, but like you know, no, I know, but yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: oh I.
Speaker 3: Gotta ask him.
Speaker 1: I gotta ask about this. I gotta be like, are
Speaker 1: they still giving this drug out?
Speaker 2: And do you get the Pensagon said they stopped in
Speaker 2: O five with this one, but maybe they're using a different.
Speaker 3: Malaria drug, like who knows?
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh god, but thank you for doing all this research.
Speaker 5: It's very infuriating.
Speaker 3: It's insane. It's insane.
Speaker 2: I like can't like reading it all in this because
Speaker 2: this is like articles throughout spanning two decades.
Speaker 1: But it's like, I don't know how you deny it.
Speaker 1: I don't know how that continues to just deny it.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah whatever. Oh I'm a bunch of women died
Speaker 1: in the past, has.
Speaker 3: Been denying things.
Speaker 5: I mean everybody.
Speaker 1: They're all covering their own fucking asses and trying to
Speaker 1: get more kids to sign up.
Speaker 3: It's crazy. That's crazy.
Speaker 6: Shit.
Speaker 1: Get these people the help they need. They're doing a
Speaker 1: very stressful job.
Speaker 2: No, because I think if you start being introspective and
Speaker 2: going to therapy, you're not gonna want to be in
Speaker 2: the military.
Speaker 1: All right, thank you. We've got a great guest to
Speaker 1: cleanse the palette. Now, everybody, don't go anywhere our guests today. Wow,
Speaker 1: we are so pumped. An incredible talent. You guys have
Speaker 1: seen her on Transparent and Your Honor as well as
Speaker 1: the Cohen Brothers film A Serious Man. But you know
Speaker 1: we're today as Missus Callahan, Jamie Callahan, the wife of
Speaker 1: Tommy Callahan. Please enjoy our chat with the amazing Amy Landaker.
Speaker 2: We are so excited. S View Royalty two episodes.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 6: You know, it's the one that you aren't asking me
Speaker 6: about with Mike will ask you all of it. Okay, Well,
Speaker 6: it was definitely my very first guestar in New York,
Speaker 6: very very Uh, it's very close to my heart.
Speaker 5: I have a good story about that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well I did see that it was so
Speaker 2: early in your IMDb. I'm like, this is your first
Speaker 2: big thing, Like I would feel incredible if I booked.
Speaker 5: That has to be you so early in my career. Yeah,
Speaker 5: that was just so.
Speaker 6: I was like thirty four. Well, so I lived in Chicago. Uh,
Speaker 6: And I was like a big six usful lucky voiceover
Speaker 6: in Chicago. So I made like a very good living
Speaker 6: and I didn't have any plans of moving, you know,
Speaker 6: out of Chicago. I was just going to be like
Speaker 6: a theater actor, voiceover actor. But did you go to
Speaker 6: all the Town Alehouse a lot A little bit yay?
Speaker 6: Right by Second City. I was more Stepan wool I
Speaker 6: was more O'Rourke's. Was our hangout the bar across the
Speaker 6: street there. But but yeah, I did a play at
Speaker 6: the Goodman called Blue Surge, and it went to New
Speaker 6: York and I ended up going to do it in
Speaker 6: New York at the Public Theater, and my boyfriend at
Speaker 6: the time moved east so he was a professor at
Speaker 6: a college near there, so I had this kind of
Speaker 6: incentive to try New York for a while so I
Speaker 6: could be near him, and the assistant director of Valentine
Speaker 6: and Frati of that play had an extra bedroom and
Speaker 6: health kitchen in her apartment, and so I moved on.
Speaker 6: I sort of found myself in New York and which
Speaker 6: opens up a lot more like guest star stuff. I
Speaker 6: had done a little bit against star in Chicago, but
Speaker 6: we didn't get a lot of those because I did,
Speaker 6: like the biggest one I got was Early Edition, which
Speaker 6: was this show with like Kyle, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Is that the show really get the newspaper and it
Speaker 1: has like right, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah right.
Speaker 6: So when the finale, they had so many like guest
Speaker 6: stars that they had to hire one locally because they
Speaker 6: didn't have the budget because normally they just always bring
Speaker 6: them in for New York or LA. So I did
Speaker 6: it to do like one real guest star, which kind
Speaker 6: of definitely wet my whistle on TV stuff, But there
Speaker 6: just wasn't a lot of that in Chicago.
Speaker 5: So anyway, when you're in New York, everybody wants.
Speaker 6: To get on Law and Order, right, like that is
Speaker 6: the job, that is what every actor gets to do.
Speaker 6: And I was lucky enough to get this guest star.
Speaker 6: And I can't remember the name of that episode. It's
Speaker 6: not coolive, but that one's called Rotten. Rotten, Okay, so rotten.
Speaker 6: First of all, the funny story about Rotten is that
Speaker 6: my character was a originally written as this woman who
Speaker 6: sleeps with police because she has like a thing for them.
Speaker 6: I think they call them like cop bunnies or something.
Speaker 6: And so she had this like way of talking that
Speaker 6: was like more like you know, her vernacular was more
Speaker 6: sort of I don't know, like rough around the edges.
Speaker 6: And they changed the character to his girlfriend, and they
Speaker 6: didn't change the language, which I thought was really hysterical.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 6: I just said to kind of like, now I'm a nurse,
Speaker 6: but I'm still sort of talking out the side of
Speaker 6: my mouth, which were which actually in New York works
Speaker 6: absolutely fine. Yeah, but in my mind I was like, oh,
Speaker 6: I have to sort of soften this up. And I
Speaker 6: did this little monologue. I had this little monologue like
Speaker 6: I don't know, both episodes, I'm like this tough girl
Speaker 6: kind of vibe going on. But they Marishka and now
Speaker 6: I'm very lucky to be pretty close friends with Marishka,
Speaker 6: which blows my mind.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know special.
Speaker 6: And I've told her this story so many times because
Speaker 6: I really mean it, Like it was a huge deal
Speaker 6: to me. When I was done, she said, if you
Speaker 6: keep work, if you keep doing work like that, You're
Speaker 6: going to work the rest of your life.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 5: And I was like, oh my god. I was like,
Speaker 5: oh my god, Like it meant so much to me.
Speaker 6: I mean, obviously I was so nervous, and you know,
Speaker 6: she's an icon. Yeah, I couldn't believe how nice she
Speaker 6: was to me and supportive. And I told her like
Speaker 6: it was just a huge deal to hear that, like huge, Yeah,
Speaker 6: she was right, Wow, lucky lucky so far.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 6: And then I kind of got into this like era
Speaker 6: of I did every I think I did every Law
Speaker 6: and order, so there's like.
Speaker 5: You know, you wait to do the Mothership. I did
Speaker 5: like criminal Intent.
Speaker 6: I was recurring on that, and then I did like conviction,
Speaker 6: which was on for like a year.
Speaker 3: I do have a.
Speaker 2: Question about Goliah right off the bat, I mean the
Speaker 2: curls were popping.
Speaker 5: Oh my god.
Speaker 6: I mean I just I did watch it yesterday with
Speaker 6: my friend Hallie for Chicago. Were like old theater buddies
Speaker 6: and well she was Altimar right now, that doesn't matter,
Speaker 6: but just in case someone's like Hallie doesn't live in Chicago,
Speaker 6: she's to work at step and Wolf and I'm I
Speaker 6: was like, I'm going to do this podcast Tomorre.
Speaker 5: I didn't want to watch.
Speaker 6: I haven't watched this episode in forever, and we were
Speaker 6: just like I've always had really interesting Well I had
Speaker 6: short hair back in the day. My ex husband like
Speaker 6: short hair, which I have to tell you, I feel
Speaker 6: like sort of kept my on camera career not going
Speaker 6: further for a long time because short haired women are
Speaker 6: not the leads on television shows. They are in commercials
Speaker 6: or they are guest stars. So that is just a fact.
Speaker 1: Like even la Rishka Hargate's like trajectory is like season one,
Speaker 1: she has like a little long hair and then she
Speaker 1: cut it into this pixie and apparently she thought she
Speaker 1: was going to lose her job because it's like like.
Speaker 5: Nobody wants to see that. Like Carrie Russell, do we
Speaker 5: remember that, Yes, I don't know what it is.
Speaker 6: I don't know what it is, but there's such a
Speaker 6: thing about it and it's so anyway. I I didn't
Speaker 6: know that until I grew my hair wander and started
Speaker 6: to get bigger jobs. But but I don't think it
Speaker 6: ever looked good on camera. I mean because the hair
Speaker 6: people got bless them wanted to you know, they didn't
Speaker 6: know my hair. They didn't know how to spile it.
Speaker 6: You're there like they've never met, You're there for a day.
Speaker 6: And I, to this day, I'm still slucky at this.
Speaker 6: I refuse to like advocate for myself and be like
Speaker 6: that looks kind of weird, Like, yeah.
Speaker 5: I'm too much of a people pleaser.
Speaker 6: And the biggest example of this was actually not that
Speaker 6: lovely dude, but I was in a movie called Oh God,
Speaker 6: this is by the way.
Speaker 5: My age is my brain. The hormones are not they're
Speaker 5: not functioning at their.
Speaker 2: Highest IMDb open Steve Carell, So Steve Carrell, Oh don't
Speaker 2: like Dan or something like that.
Speaker 5: Yeah Dan Dan in real life? Right? Yeah? So Dan in.
Speaker 6: Real life was my first movie scene, like big movie
Speaker 6: of my career, and it was really exciting. It was
Speaker 6: with Steve Carrell and I'm like, oh my god, I'm
Speaker 6: gonna be the same with Steve Carell. But I had
Speaker 6: this really cute short haircut if you knew how to
Speaker 6: style it, but they didn't. And I came the trailer,
Speaker 6: the hair trailer, and the woman who was doing costumes
Speaker 6: was like, you know, you can tell them if you
Speaker 6: want them to change your hair, and I was like, uh, oh,
Speaker 6: it's fine, No, it's fine, Like I just wouldn't say
Speaker 6: anything about anything. So I'm in this movie I and
Speaker 6: I tried to justify it. I'm like, well, she's from
Speaker 6: the Midwest, and she's like, I always find a character.
Speaker 5: Reason for it, which I did with the curls yesterday.
Speaker 6: So so then I'm getting my haircut in La like
Speaker 6: by the woman who did the original short haircut a
Speaker 6: year and a half later or something, and she was like,
Speaker 6: I saw this movie a long time ago, last year,
Speaker 6: and there was this woman who looked so much likely
Speaker 6: that she had like literally the worst haircut.
Speaker 5: That's me. And the thing was so shorter.
Speaker 6: She saw it on a plane or whatever that like
Speaker 6: she just did it put it together that it was
Speaker 6: actually me. And you can't even make that story up,
Speaker 6: like it sounds like, I'm making it up, but that's
Speaker 6: how bad the hair was.
Speaker 3: Wait, but did you say it was me? Or you
Speaker 3: didn't say anything?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course I did. Did she feel did she feel?
Speaker 1: How did she feel about her bad haircut?
Speaker 5: Because it wasn't a bad haircut, they just style it.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 6: I was like, that was my haircut, that was you,
Speaker 6: that was me, And she was like, oh my god,
Speaker 6: what did they do to it? I'm like, curled it,
Speaker 6: you know, they curled a short haircut, not you know, not.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was flipping and flipping those curls. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 5: So on that yesterday.
Speaker 6: I don't know how that got decided that I had
Speaker 6: curly hair, but I thought, well that I sort of
Speaker 6: thought it made her feel. This is gonna sound really
Speaker 6: condescending and probably offend people, but like working class that
Speaker 6: she had, Like like I imagine she had really curly
Speaker 6: hair and she doesn't like straighten it because she's like,
Speaker 6: doesn't have time and she's pregnant and life's hard.
Speaker 5: That's that was my justification yesterday.
Speaker 3: Okay, that works. That works.
Speaker 1: She's a pregnant woman whose husband is going possibly insane. Yeah,
Speaker 1: then your nurse character. I hate to say this feels
Speaker 1: like she would have voted for Trump. She loves cops.
Speaker 1: I think she loves she's like killed drug dealers. It's
Speaker 1: totally fine, you know, I think Unfortunately, Wait.
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, but I'm vote. I'm voting for Trump. Is
Speaker 5: there a problem with.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's weird because I did go to your Instagram
Speaker 1: and now even thought the feeling that you were not
Speaker 1: on that side. But I did play that trick on
Speaker 1: a doctor I had once. I was like, well, I'm
Speaker 1: voting for Trump, and he goes and that's totally fine,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm kidding, Like.
Speaker 5: But here's what's weird. Half the world, the country, I know,
Speaker 5: but for.
Speaker 1: Some reason, in LA it feels like we can just
Speaker 1: joke about it because who would possibly be in our bubble?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, in our bubble, no doubt about it.
Speaker 1: Wait, so they made you audition for the second part too?
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, do you remember for everything? Everything there? Because
Speaker 5: I wasn't No one knew me. I wasn't a name
Speaker 5: at all.
Speaker 6: I mean now I will Now I'm at the point
Speaker 6: of my career where I get offers on guest stars,
Speaker 6: Like I don't have to audition for guest stars.
Speaker 5: But that didn't happen until after Transparent.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that I was ever even I always had to audition.
Speaker 6: But then if you're like the lead in the series
Speaker 6: and there's enough work out there and I've.
Speaker 5: Done enough, you know, people, you don't have to anymore.
Speaker 6: But but back then you had to. You had to
Speaker 6: go in every time.
Speaker 1: Do you remember back in like your New York days,
Speaker 1: ever seeing like another actor that you would like always see,
Speaker 1: Like we always hear people say like, oh, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: always in the same room with like Julie Bowen, or
Speaker 1: like I'm always in the same waiting room with whoever.
Speaker 1: Like I remember, I was always when I was New
Speaker 1: York auditioning for voiceovers and commercials and stuff, I was
Speaker 1: always in the same room with the same like five
Speaker 1: girls and like the broad City girls, you know, like
Speaker 1: people that ended up doing things right, you know.
Speaker 5: I mean, I think more by it's definitely a voice
Speaker 5: sober I had.
Speaker 6: We had all the same girls like every job, every audition,
Speaker 6: and we all became like incredibly close friends. I don't
Speaker 6: think I was like as connected yet because I was
Speaker 6: new to New York to like the theater, the theater
Speaker 6: women like I would see the same faces but I
Speaker 6: couldn't name them to you right now, you know, it
Speaker 6: wasn't like like more out here in LA you start
Speaker 6: to really get like who you're you know, who your
Speaker 6: crowd is. It's so funny because I think her name's
Speaker 6: Kim Savage. But I was at an event on Sunday
Speaker 6: Andrea Savage okay, and people, a bunch of people, sorry,
Speaker 6: a bunch of people came up to me and they
Speaker 6: were like, we we love I'm sorry, and I was.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, you guys don't have a similar vibe I
Speaker 1: which I was totally.
Speaker 6: She's younger than me and I was like, oh god, no,
Speaker 6: that's not me. But I met her at a party actually,
Speaker 6: and she told me that she gets me a lot.
Speaker 6: And then I always get Amy Brenneman. But Amy Brennan
Speaker 6: was not auditioning when I came out here, but she
Speaker 6: was who everybody thought I was. It was like, especially
Speaker 6: because my name was Amy, to the point that like
Speaker 6: someone came out to me at sundance and was like.
Speaker 5: How are you doing? And I was like, I'm great.
Speaker 6: How's your husband and I said, oh, we got divorced
Speaker 6: and she was like what what you and Brad And
Speaker 6: this is before I was with Bradley went for my
Speaker 6: ex husband Jackson.
Speaker 5: I was like Brad, I was like, oh you think
Speaker 5: I made me Brenneman Now I just like now, I
Speaker 5: like even cut it off before it happens.
Speaker 6: But like my genre was like Pamela Adlon, there was
Speaker 6: an actress Amy Farrington was really great, Like we were
Speaker 6: all the brunette, you know, a.
Speaker 5: Certain vibe that we were always.
Speaker 6: Up for the same stuff, but very not competitive the
Speaker 6: way that people. I think when you're a character actor
Speaker 6: or you're like a guest star, or you're come from theater,
Speaker 6: there's a lot more community than there is in sort
Speaker 6: of movies, you know, and being around really famous people,
Speaker 6: it gets kind of weird because they get really isolated.
Speaker 6: I really miss those New York people because I've been
Speaker 6: in La so long. There it was it was just
Speaker 6: a great time. It was a really wonderful, fun time
Speaker 6: and to come in late. I always talk about the
Speaker 6: fact that, like I moved to New York in my
Speaker 6: thirties and a lot of people said to me, like,
Speaker 6: you know, agents that I would have like meet and
Speaker 6: greets with there, Like I think you should just go
Speaker 6: back to Chicago because you're too old, and you don't
Speaker 6: have a pedigree. You're not from Yale, and you're not
Speaker 6: from you know, Juilliard, and you weren't an ensemble member
Speaker 6: at Stuff Wolf, So I just don't think you're going
Speaker 6: to work here. And I just, you know, stuck it
Speaker 6: out and I was like, well.
Speaker 1: I'm going to say it's awesome though, because I remember
Speaker 1: actually like when you were started to become your star
Speaker 1: was rising with transpar you know which both of us
Speaker 1: watched Transparent and big fans love my heart. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: like I remember, like my husband or something goes, oh
Speaker 1: you know, I just heard Amy Landiker or something on
Speaker 1: a podcast talking about how really your career started popping
Speaker 1: off in your mid forties, and I was like that, well, forty.
Speaker 6: Was when I booked a serious man. Yeah, forty was
Speaker 6: my first real breakthrough. Yeah, and then forty three.
Speaker 5: I think was Transparent, Yeah, when I got cast in that.
Speaker 6: And I don't I want to talk about it all
Speaker 6: the time because I want people, I want, especially want women.
Speaker 5: Actors to know, yes, is it hard? Are we? But
Speaker 5: I have this great acting teacher, Leslie Khan. I con yeah,
Speaker 5: I love Legli Cohn. Yes, almost told me to stop
Speaker 5: wrinkling my forehead. Oh yeah, I know. She was big
Speaker 5: on that. She loved she loved botox because she was like,
Speaker 5: I don't have to tell well anymore.
Speaker 1: She finally she said it so many times to me
Speaker 1: that I went up.
Speaker 3: I went up to her.
Speaker 1: I was like, listen, this is just my face when
Speaker 1: I'm listening, Like I would crinkle my forehead. Now I
Speaker 1: get botox. And she was like, and I was like,
Speaker 1: so do you think I should get botox? And she
Speaker 1: wouldn't come out and just say it, but I knew.
Speaker 6: That right right well, And it's sort of she can
Speaker 6: really annoy people with that stuff too, because it can
Speaker 6: get you in your head, and she knows that, like
Speaker 6: it's not you know, that's a rough note. Sometimes it's like, well,
Speaker 6: I'm expressing myself by the way, you know, Julia Louis
Speaker 6: Dreyfus wrinkles her forehead extensively, as does my husband Bradley
Speaker 6: Whitford's forehead is like a train, you know, there's like
Speaker 6: train tracks.
Speaker 5: That's expression. So but she was also very savvy about,
Speaker 5: you know, how you look on camera, attractiveness blah blah
Speaker 5: blah blah blah.
Speaker 6: But what I loved about her for me was she
Speaker 6: was just like, you know, there's like, yeah, there's a rule,
Speaker 6: but that means there's an exception, and why can't you
Speaker 6: be the exception to the rule?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 6: And that really stuck with me, Like, you know, there's
Speaker 6: always an exception, and eventually the exception, you know, will
Speaker 6: will topple the rule.
Speaker 5: And and you know, I mean we're.
Speaker 6: Experiencing that now in our political you know, everyone's like terrified,
Speaker 6: was this country ready to elect African American? Well she's
Speaker 6: Jamaican her dad's side, but an Indian woman, and it's like, well,
Speaker 6: we won't know until we do it, right, I mean,
Speaker 6: like we got to break so as a woman in
Speaker 6: my forties when a lot of people are like, oh,
Speaker 6: you're dead, and you know you're on people swear on
Speaker 6: your podcast, Oh yeah, you're unsuckable, right, I mean, I
Speaker 6: was lucky enough to get into a series where I
Speaker 6: was treated as like a very overly sexual human.
Speaker 3: Very extremely fuckable.
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, and then so you and then you
Speaker 1: met your husband on that another SVUM you about this
Speaker 1: is the best story.
Speaker 6: This is the very best story. The only reason that
Speaker 6: I am married to Bradley Woodford the love of my
Speaker 6: life is because he did Law and Order. Wait what Yeah,
Speaker 6: so Bradley was going to be one of the It
Speaker 6: was sort of a snob about. I think it was
Speaker 6: more of a game like, I'm going to be one
Speaker 6: of the few actors in the world. But has never
Speaker 6: done a Law in Order. So he never did it,
Speaker 6: like back in the day. He just like you know,
Speaker 6: through his whole career, never did one. He gets a call,
Speaker 6: you know, I guess this is eleven years ago that
Speaker 6: Jeffrey Tambour is going to be doing this SVU and
Speaker 6: he would do all the scenes with Jeffrey, and Bradley
Speaker 6: had always wanted to work with Jeffrey. So Bradley decides
Speaker 6: to say yes to this, and on that set, Jeffrey
Speaker 6: Tambour looks at Bradley goes, you know, I'm doing this
Speaker 6: new sort of weird web series and there which was
Speaker 6: because we didn't know at the time that they were
Speaker 6: TV shows. We didn't know what the right Amazon there's
Speaker 6: right and there's a part in it that's perfect for you.
Speaker 6: And so Jeffrey recommended Bradley to Joey and that is
Speaker 6: why he was on Transparent and I would not have
Speaker 6: met him if he hadn't done law in Order SBU
Speaker 6: How crazy is that one? Which we also told We
Speaker 6: also told her Riska that I feel like I just
Speaker 6: like and then and then he's been back a second time.
Speaker 5: He came back in a more recent season and.
Speaker 3: Now he the our podcast. This is huge.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and then he did on the Moon, but like,
Speaker 6: which was a huge episode for her, was like one
Speaker 6: of her favorite He's one of her favorite actors. Also,
Speaker 6: by the way, if I didn't know how in love
Speaker 6: she was with her husband and how in love hopefully
Speaker 6: my husband is me, I would be jealous of how
Speaker 6: much they love each other. They are a great team.
Speaker 6: They are hysterical together. They should have their own sitcom.
Speaker 6: I'm not even kidding. They did like a whatever the
Speaker 6: big number was it twenty.
Speaker 5: Five years of the BESTBA or something season was twenty five. Yeah.
Speaker 6: She came to La to do like an Emmy panel
Speaker 6: thing and Hey moderated, and I'm telling you, I was like,
Speaker 6: they they're the funniest two people together in the world.
Speaker 5: But she they became very close after that.
Speaker 6: They got along really great, and that's given me access
Speaker 6: to her.
Speaker 5: Her lovely uh Manhattan Life.
Speaker 6: I thought that she like, wow, twenty five years, twenty
Speaker 6: two episodes a year, you really, uh, you really break
Speaker 6: it in You sure not.
Speaker 1: To mention it's on seven different channels at all times
Speaker 1: of the day the same.
Speaker 5: What's so great about her? And the only reason you
Speaker 5: like don't hate her is she's always like can you
Speaker 5: believe this? Can you can you believe that?
Speaker 6: Like she's not like she's super enjoy of all of
Speaker 6: it and very generous around it, so you don't want
Speaker 6: to kill her.
Speaker 5: But yeah, so that's Bradley is also SBU.
Speaker 2: I don't wait till I hope one day we see
Speaker 2: Marishikan sitcoms again, because pre sv usually have so.
Speaker 3: Much fun out there, and I write, I should.
Speaker 5: Write them a comedy like I.
Speaker 6: I've just finished my first like romantic comedy.
Speaker 5: I saw I am dB. I want to hear about that.
Speaker 6: Well, it's not. I just finished it and it's not.
Speaker 6: We are in the process of submitting, submitting to festivals,
Speaker 6: which is why I haven't done any kind of public posting.
Speaker 6: We're sort of waiting to see if it finds a
Speaker 6: home there. But it's called for worse and it's a
Speaker 6: wedding movie, romantic comedy that was very low budget and
Speaker 6: very done under a sag ultra low budget, very quickly.
Speaker 5: But I was lucky enough to.
Speaker 6: Have kind of an insane cast, and so I think,
Speaker 6: under the limitations that it's in, it was.
Speaker 5: It turned out. I'm really, really, really happy with it.
Speaker 6: But Bradley is in it, Nico Haraga, who's this young
Speaker 6: up and coming sort of model skater guy who is
Speaker 6: just lovely and funny, and Gabby Hoffman.
Speaker 5: Was in it, and Ken Marino Missy Kyle wait on
Speaker 5: our podcast.
Speaker 6: Oh really yeah cool, Yeah, she plays my best friend.
Speaker 6: I just had some really great comedic actors, and so
Speaker 6: it just I was really lucky it was.
Speaker 5: I it just I think it's funny.
Speaker 1: I like the I mean, at least the premise that
Speaker 1: that's written as a one line.
Speaker 3: On uh on.
Speaker 1: Like it's like a newly divorced, sober mom goes to
Speaker 1: a wedding with a much younger date and behaves like
Speaker 1: a drunk twenty five year old bridesmaid to try to
Speaker 1: keep up love it.
Speaker 2: Wait, this might be weird, but if you had to
Speaker 2: fuck Mary kill right direct act, what would you pick?
Speaker 5: So funny?
Speaker 6: Because I had to take my friend Hallie through the
Speaker 6: whole Taylor's swift saga.
Speaker 5: She didn't understand all of it, and we got to
Speaker 5: the fuck Mary kiss kill Mary.
Speaker 3: That was what it was. Oh yeah, yeah, it was.
Speaker 5: The Travis you made it a little wrong, cheer. We
Speaker 5: went down the whole rabbit hole of so wait. Oh
Speaker 5: out of the three, I mean, honestly, hmm, that's a
Speaker 5: really okay so kill what does it?
Speaker 1: Kill?
Speaker 5: Mary? Kill? Fuck Mary kill? Fuck acting because acting is.
Speaker 6: Always like the most emotional and intense and insane. Kill
Speaker 6: writing because it's so fucking isolating, so hard, and Mary directing.
Speaker 5: I love directing, and I also feel like.
Speaker 6: There's something you know, there's there's always something slightly humiliating
Speaker 6: about acting, like you're always at the mercy of everybody else,
Speaker 6: and your opinions aren't always taken, and no, you're.
Speaker 1: Always like you can't say when your hair looks bad
Speaker 1: and stuff exactly.
Speaker 5: And the business always makes you feel very replaceable.
Speaker 6: You know, it's always like, well, if you can't do it, well,
Speaker 6: there's a thousand people equally talented right behind you. So
Speaker 6: directing feels like something that and writing does too. But
Speaker 6: directing feels like something that's social and also you get
Speaker 6: to have a lot of creative input and you're sort
Speaker 6: of in charge. I guess I really like being in charge,
Speaker 6: because boy did I enjoy directing that movie.
Speaker 5: I was like, this is.
Speaker 6: My jam and people were really I felt like I
Speaker 6: learned from the best directors that I've worked with. I've
Speaker 6: been doing this so long that I knew how what
Speaker 6: people need on a set to feel good and my like,
Speaker 6: I felt like the biggest compliment was the fact that
Speaker 6: so many people said, like that was one of the
Speaker 6: best times they ever had, even though we had like
Speaker 6: no time and no money. But I was like, because
Speaker 6: I know, I know what I know how, I know
Speaker 6: what people need. They need to feel seen, they need
Speaker 6: to feel like their opinions aren't being heard.
Speaker 5: They need to get a chance to play.
Speaker 6: You know, you get what you want and then you
Speaker 6: let them do what they want because you might get
Speaker 6: something unbelievable, you know, especially in comedy. So anyway, it
Speaker 6: was that that's a fun I think I and that's
Speaker 6: what I've been thinking about, Like, what would I take
Speaker 6: from that experience is like I probably love to direct
Speaker 6: some episodics television.
Speaker 5: That was something that would come maybe an episode of
Speaker 5: Yeah you had a connection over.
Speaker 3: A long or SEU.
Speaker 5: Right now, I'm being totally honest.
Speaker 6: I'm really more interested in comedy.
Speaker 5: That's my new my new thing, even as an actor. Now,
Speaker 5: I told my whole team that's what I wanted. I
Speaker 5: think as I've gotten older, I really love.
Speaker 6: Lapping at work and not I've done a lot of
Speaker 6: hardcore drama stuff, like on stage and as I mean,
Speaker 6: there was a time when I went through my divorce
Speaker 6: in LA I was so emotional and like raw that
Speaker 6: I booked nine guest stars in a year that my
Speaker 6: agent said they've never seen and I had audition for
Speaker 6: every single one of them, and I just put, you
Speaker 6: could not give me a job that year because everybody
Speaker 6: was like being murdered or my kid died or like
Speaker 6: something where I could channel this upset that I I
Speaker 6: was going through. And you know, I just it's exhausting
Speaker 6: a little bit that kind of work, you know, and
Speaker 6: it doesn't energize you the same way comedy energizes you,
Speaker 6: you know.
Speaker 5: And now you're happy, so you want to do comedy,
Speaker 5: then well, right, very yeah, very very happy.
Speaker 2: But I do have to ask about a serious man
Speaker 2: I'm so, we're both so curious, you know about the
Speaker 2: Coen Brothers and that extreme.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that was an absolute fantasy job I had. I
Speaker 6: was not at that level in my career to get
Speaker 6: an audition for a Cohen Brothers movie. I happened to,
Speaker 6: uh be very very lucky to be in LA and
Speaker 6: Rachel Tenor, who used to be part of this Tenor
Speaker 6: Pascal casting company, who was who were great in Chicago,
Speaker 6: was now living in LA and was now their La
Speaker 6: point person for casting. And I was out here doing
Speaker 6: a play and somebody flagged this audition for me from
Speaker 6: the Breakdowns, which is like how actress would be. You'd
Speaker 6: like pay it for a service and steal these things
Speaker 6: called the Breakdowns which you're not supposed to get, which
Speaker 6: is like everything that's being auditioned that's getting sent to
Speaker 6: agents and managers. And so it got flagged by a
Speaker 6: friend and I was like, it said on camera munity,
Speaker 6: and I was like, I'm not I'll never get this,
Speaker 6: so I don't have to worry about that.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: And I said to my husband at the time, I
Speaker 5: was like, do you make do comunit?
Speaker 6: He's like, I mean, you look good, you look like
Speaker 6: you had a baby, you know, and I was like, okay, great,
Speaker 6: and I was like, well, I'll never have to worry
Speaker 6: about that because there's not a chance in how long
Speaker 6: I'm going to get this movie.
Speaker 5: Like, not a chance. I'm just going to go in
Speaker 5: and say hi to Rachel, you know.
Speaker 6: So she called me in because we knew each other,
Speaker 6: and then I got this a callback and I was
Speaker 6: just like wh.
Speaker 5: And then it was like, you're going to meet the
Speaker 5: Coen Brothers.
Speaker 6: And I was like, and I actually ran that audition
Speaker 6: in my class at Leslie Conn's before I went in,
Speaker 6: and she really helped me grounded in the fact that
Speaker 6: she's like just remember she's like stoned the entire time, right,
Speaker 6: And it sort of like gave me this this one
Speaker 6: thing that would take me kind of.
Speaker 5: In this zone.
Speaker 6: And I went in and and I asked Paul Eielstein,
Speaker 6: who'd worked with them, you know, what to expect, and
Speaker 6: he's like, you know, they're there. They might not talk
Speaker 6: very much, they're not very talkative in auditions, and don't
Speaker 6: don't think that means you're not going to get it.
Speaker 6: Although what was interesting is they were very talkative with
Speaker 6: me and wanted, you know, they really like.
Speaker 5: AFT a lot, and I had a sense that.
Speaker 6: Like they really liked it, and Rachel was like, you
Speaker 6: are on the short list, but they are very thorough
Speaker 6: and this is just the beginning of this process. And
Speaker 6: I waited like a really long time to find out
Speaker 6: that I got it, so long that in the meantime
Speaker 6: I got my first guest star in LA, which was.
Speaker 5: On mad Men.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, and Matt Weiner was like also very supportive.
Speaker 6: I always got a lot of really good feedback because
Speaker 6: I think as a theater actor, I was always like
Speaker 6: super prepared. I was pretty fearless, like a lot of
Speaker 6: stuff that like in that episode I was supposed to
Speaker 6: like walk into a wall and he just couldn't believe
Speaker 6: how willing I.
Speaker 5: Was really walking to the wall over and over again.
Speaker 5: I was kind of drunk. Tur name is Petra Coulson.
Speaker 6: But I he said that if there's anything I can
Speaker 6: do to help you in LA, and I was like, well,
Speaker 6: I auditioned for this Cone Brothers movie, Like I don't
Speaker 6: know those guys, but good luck with that. I was
Speaker 6: like thanks, And it was so amazing because like a
Speaker 6: year later I was at the American Film Institute Awards luncheon,
Speaker 6: which is like a huge thing out here. It's really
Speaker 6: fun because it's like it's just all the great actors.
Speaker 6: It's mostly actors, and it's film and TV and they
Speaker 6: picked like ten TV shows and ten movies and everybody's there.
Speaker 6: And I was there with a serious man when Madmon
Speaker 6: was also getting honored, and I got to like run
Speaker 6: into John and Matt again and they were hugging me
Speaker 6: and remembered everything. They were like, you're still like.
Speaker 5: It was such an incredible and again in my.
Speaker 6: I think I was, you know, forty years old at
Speaker 6: that point and it was just amazing and also shooting
Speaker 6: though the only problem with the Coen Brothers is they
Speaker 6: are too fast.
Speaker 5: They are a machine.
Speaker 6: They I was having so much fun and I did
Speaker 6: not want it to end, and it just moved so quickly.
Speaker 6: That was literally my only complaint. I'm like, I wish
Speaker 6: you know, I mean, it was just like they know everybody.
Speaker 3: Like would have thought, that's a surprise.
Speaker 5: It's insane, And.
Speaker 6: Never change a word from the audition to the day
Speaker 6: that you shoot, Like most scripts are always reworked, and
Speaker 6: to the point that they also have every single shot
Speaker 6: is anim is drawn. They have somebody who draws their
Speaker 6: frames so you also see your whole scene before you
Speaker 6: do it. Like they know every shot they're going to do,
Speaker 6: every shot, and they use like the Saint Roger Deakins
Speaker 6: as their DP. Like they've been a group of people
Speaker 6: who work together so long that they just are like
Speaker 6: a machine.
Speaker 3: It's like they know what people say.
Speaker 5: I mean that you go in there, everybody's going you
Speaker 5: go really bad out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: Although I've had longer day than a courtroom on a
Speaker 6: Law and Order than I did on.
Speaker 5: The Coen Brothers.
Speaker 2: Just before we go, I do I do have an
Speaker 2: SVU note that I will. This isn't a question, but
Speaker 2: you know, part of like law and Order is people
Speaker 2: won't stop working as the cops are talking to them
Speaker 2: or someone died close to them and they are not reacting.
Speaker 2: We've only talked to one other actress, and now you
Speaker 2: are the second.
Speaker 5: You told the truth.
Speaker 2: You were helpful, you were focused, you were appropriately upset,
Speaker 2: you weren't doing a task, You cooperated and that was
Speaker 2: with sas. So thank you for joining that high category
Speaker 2: of people that thank you responding.
Speaker 6: That was funny though, is that Maloney was doing a
Speaker 6: crossword puzzle during all of the lias between takes.
Speaker 5: And I was like, dude, I'm a rate victim.
Speaker 6: And then I realized, like once I got into TV
Speaker 6: more and how long and exhausting, and you know, he's
Speaker 6: they're like twenty four to seven, I was like, I
Speaker 6: get it now, I get why he Yeah, I mean
Speaker 6: he didn't do it in the scene, granted, which would
Speaker 6: have been really inappropriate, but I was like so new
Speaker 6: and not, you know, I just didn't.
Speaker 5: I didn't get that. Their hours are insane and they
Speaker 5: and also emotionally, but people you can't possibly Yeah, people
Speaker 5: have that alls that.
Speaker 1: Like Marishka jumps in and out, like she'll be doing
Speaker 1: this really serious scene and then she'll.
Speaker 3: Be joking and yeah, oh my gosh, where is it.
Speaker 1: So happy to talk to you, like, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming on.
Speaker 2: Absolutely what an inspiration. Obsessed with her more than anything.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I love her. I love her love,
Speaker 1: I love her love with Bradley Whitford. They're so sweet
Speaker 1: and their love of Marishka. Yes, but I you know
Speaker 1: what's crazy. We My brother was just here and he
Speaker 1: was he's in the military, and I asked her about
Speaker 1: this episode. I was like oh, we just covered this
Speaker 1: episode about the military with this drug that they giving
Speaker 1: for malaria that was making people kill their wives. And
Speaker 1: he was like, oh, yeah, I remember hearing about that.
Speaker 1: And he was like yeah, I was crazy at Fort Bragg,
Speaker 1: like he knew.
Speaker 5: All about it. And I was like, if they don't
Speaker 5: give you that job, He's like, they don't give that anymore,
Speaker 5: and I was like okay, good.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: I also just I mean, I hate the military, Amantai military,
Speaker 2: and I don't care, like, oh, you're not watching Love
Speaker 2: is Blind.
Speaker 1: No, But I've been hearing a lot about it through OUTMOSIS.
Speaker 1: I've been hearing about that guy Leo that talks about
Speaker 1: his money all the time.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but he's a fraud. We went on his site yesterday.
Speaker 2: We went on a website he sells like really weird
Speaker 2: are and our friend said, he's a joke. But it's
Speaker 2: family money, right, isn't it. Yeah, But there's no way
Speaker 2: he is actually right. Oh, I just don't believe it.
Speaker 2: The website looks terrible, like hah, It's just if you
Speaker 2: were selling our and you were truly hundreds of millions,
Speaker 2: like familid Press site.
Speaker 5: You wouldn't have a shitty fucking website.
Speaker 2: You would have been able to hire someone like a
Speaker 2: nice fucking yeah person. So he you Also, if you
Speaker 2: come from that wealth, you're not gonna be like, look
Speaker 2: at my Rolex, want to try it on.
Speaker 3: That's just not how that works.
Speaker 2: Money talks, wealth whispers exactly like you don't, you don't,
Speaker 2: you don't want to be known for your wealth, but
Speaker 2: that's all you're going to talk about NonStop, like obviously
Speaker 2: you're not actually rich.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and or don't have a personality outside of it,
Speaker 5: saying when.
Speaker 2: People will say, oh, I'm so broke, I'm so broken,
Speaker 2: and it's like, no, you're not broke.
Speaker 5: People don't do that, like yeah, it's it's not real.
Speaker 1: Yeah I've been. Yeah, so I've been like sort of,
Speaker 1: but what brought what? What about the military brought you
Speaker 1: to love?
Speaker 2: There's a military girl and she she's multi generation military,
Speaker 2: like the mom was in it, all her siblings I think,
Speaker 2: you know. And she ends up with a guy with
Speaker 2: like a little braid and a beads and so he's
Speaker 2: like anti military, and all her friends are in the military,
Speaker 2: and he's like so anti it. And they're at this
Speaker 2: dinner being like, well it's part of her life and
Speaker 2: she's proud of it and blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: And he's like, if she goes back, we're done.
Speaker 2: And she's like, well, I won't go back, and she
Speaker 2: keeps taking these concessions and he's not making any concessions
Speaker 2: at all in their life, and it's just like, I'm
Speaker 2: not into the military, but like, you deserve to be
Speaker 2: with someone that's down for your service. Yeah, Like I
Speaker 2: don't understand how you could be with someone that's so
Speaker 2: anti what you do, wouldn't let your children do it,
Speaker 2: doesn't want you to go back if that's something you loved,
Speaker 2: like her and her girlfriends are like, this is the
Speaker 2: greatest honor of our lives. And he's just like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm not for it, like I'm not into it, and
Speaker 2: he is just non compromising it anyway. So she's like,
Speaker 2: you know, he doesn't want to have kids. She's happy
Speaker 2: to have kids right away. He's like, well, I don't
Speaker 2: want to and she goes, that's fine, but I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna go on birth control, like you'd have to wear
Speaker 2: a condom. He goes, I'm not wearing condoms. So he
Speaker 2: doesn't want kids, and he doesn't want condoms, and so
Speaker 2: it's I hate him. Well, it's like what everyone says
Speaker 2: where it's like it's a stupid thing and it's not true.
Speaker 2: But when they say, like, oh, the liberal cuckboys that
Speaker 2: like try to be feminists are really the most dangerous.
Speaker 3: One, it's not true.
Speaker 2: But he is just such a shining star of that
Speaker 2: where he was just like, oh, peace, love, equality, I'm
Speaker 2: not fucking wearing a condom.
Speaker 3: You better get on a pill, bitch.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: It's like kind of wild.
Speaker 2: But she meets up there's the guy that her second
Speaker 2: place guy is this Ukraine dude who was in the
Speaker 2: military in the US and then went to volunteer in
Speaker 2: Ukraine and stuff, and he was pretty cute. So yesterday
Speaker 2: I'm with people who are also love is blind obsessed,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I hope in the next chunk of episodes,
Speaker 2: she hooks up with this other military guy like that
Speaker 2: they could live their weird little life together and they go,
Speaker 2: oh no, it came out that he has domestic violence charges,
Speaker 2: and then of that, yeah yeah, And then this other guy,
Speaker 2: it came out that he's like a sperm donor and
Speaker 2: there's three sperm babies and the Grandma's like, these are
Speaker 2: his kids.
Speaker 3: There's photos of the kids.
Speaker 1: He's just not child nine Episode nine, it came out
Speaker 1: that he had kids, Like that's oh my god, that show.
Speaker 5: And then all the guys are putting on an act.
Speaker 2: So this one guy is just like I like listening
Speaker 2: and growing and blah blah blah. And then he was
Speaker 2: like he's a pervert. He was like doing like come,
Speaker 2: he's like a kink pervert. And she's like crying. He
Speaker 2: was texting girls right away, Like it's just the guys
Speaker 2: put on this act, and it's like they can't hold
Speaker 2: on even for two weeks.
Speaker 1: This is only two weeks, you know, to hide your
Speaker 1: terrible parts of your personality.
Speaker 2: Wow, But it's like if the if the experiment is on,
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I did see on Instagram people watching
Speaker 2: it with a sheet over the TV. So you also
Speaker 2: don't know who anyone looks like, and then you tear
Speaker 2: it down when they meet to see or not.
Speaker 5: I like that.
Speaker 1: That's pretty fall Yeah, that's very meta. Put yourself. You're
Speaker 1: basically put yourself in the game too, but you wouldn't.
Speaker 3: Like any of them.
Speaker 2: Oh and so the previews of the new chunk of
Speaker 2: episodes that'll have already come out. But it's a guy
Speaker 2: who picks this girl seeing a different girl he didn't pick,
Speaker 2: and her going, yeah, I guess love isn't blind.
Speaker 1: And I don't know. I just can't wait for her
Speaker 1: the termoil. Maybe I should get back into it. I
Speaker 1: feel like this though.
Speaker 3: That's the thing. It's like I watch it and I'm like,
Speaker 3: I'm bored.
Speaker 2: I hate this. I am not interested. You're all putting
Speaker 2: on an act. None of you are in love. This
Speaker 2: is all for too, like fuck all of you.
Speaker 1: But then I can't stop, can't stop because of the
Speaker 1: bomb drops of like, Okay, there's a pervert.
Speaker 5: He's down.
Speaker 1: There are three kids, yeah, lots of and he's like, what,
Speaker 1: it's not a big deal.
Speaker 2: It's like you're even lying with your reveal of the lie. Wow,
Speaker 2: Like these are your children that you don't really take.
Speaker 2: Everyone kept saying I can't wait to be a dad.
Speaker 5: I want to be a dad. It's like you're a
Speaker 5: fucking dad.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my god, these guys.
Speaker 1: And it's like are the men always bad? Like are
Speaker 1: there are the women bad?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 2: That was like Jesse mess Messica, No, there are crazy
Speaker 2: women of course.
Speaker 5: Well, I remember her from the first season.
Speaker 2: There's like someone someone had a good theory that they
Speaker 2: think the girl that ended up with that rich guy
Speaker 2: is an escore.
Speaker 1: It was a high end es score. That's like kind
Speaker 1: of the theory is about stuff. She's sad, so I
Speaker 1: don't I don't really know.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's all a mess.
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone's gonna get married except maybe the nerds,
Speaker 2: but like they don't even feel right. It's just I
Speaker 2: just don't get why people are so desperate at twenty six,
Speaker 2: Like that's what's confusing. Two maybe it's for television fame,
Speaker 2: and then I can kind of get it. But it's
Speaker 2: like those girls with this guy who lives with his mom,
Speaker 2: doesn't how to pay bills, doesn't not a clean, doesn't
Speaker 2: not a like truly even boil water for pasta, doesn't
Speaker 2: have a savings like nothing, and she is like live soocks,
Speaker 2: I have this, I have that, and do you? And
Speaker 2: it's like do you want what? You don't have to
Speaker 2: do this, Like you don't have to marry this guy
Speaker 2: who's so different.
Speaker 5: I don't stay.
Speaker 3: Are they in now?
Speaker 5: Are they in North Carolina or something? Yeah?
Speaker 3: In North Carolina? DC, Virginia like that kind of an area.
Speaker 1: Okay, I don't know why everyone's so fucking anxious at
Speaker 1: twenty six.
Speaker 5: It's uh wild, well.
Speaker 3: That's what I mean.
Speaker 2: It's just like it's weird. They're just making such concessions. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like it's like this girl's like, yeah, I always date
Speaker 2: hat guys, but I am attracted him and then he
Speaker 2: ends up like being shitty Anyways.
Speaker 5: It's just like I.
Speaker 1: Don't get what they're talking about in all of those
Speaker 1: like dates where they can't see each other, that don't
Speaker 1: betray the fact that this guy's never paid a bill
Speaker 1: and doesn't know how to do anything in life. Like
Speaker 1: she didn't realize any of that, or she did it
Speaker 1: just because he's a liar.
Speaker 2: He's like, I'm a professional football player, but he wasn't.
Speaker 2: He played in the XFL, Like it's not the NFL.
Speaker 2: He's also a kicker. He was like, yeah, I'm hotter
Speaker 2: than Travis Kelcey.
Speaker 3: He's not. What is THEFL again?
Speaker 2: I think it was like they had spikes or something,
Speaker 2: you know, they were like extra rough and tumble, and
Speaker 2: then there's just different leagues like into arena football, like
Speaker 2: you can still have a career and that's great, but
Speaker 2: like you can't tell people you're in football that that
Speaker 2: you're hotter than Travis Kelcey and you're actually living in
Speaker 2: your parents' basement. And this is like the movie failure
Speaker 2: to launch, Like I don't know what we're.
Speaker 5: Supposed to do.
Speaker 1: I know, it's like I don't understand how they think
Speaker 1: it's gonna end up. But it's TV, right, they just
Speaker 1: want to be famous.
Speaker 2: I'm happy fifteen because it doesn't make sense because even
Speaker 2: when they're just like it's just too delusional for me,
Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, we've had a fight and we talked
Speaker 2: it over and we just know everything about each other.
Speaker 2: And it's like, but you do know that relationships take
Speaker 2: time and change, Like you must know this as a human, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: this isn't this isn't long lasted.
Speaker 5: Like I don't know it's she's gonna.
Speaker 3: Find out about the three children that you have.
Speaker 5: It's not one, it's three.
Speaker 2: But it's like the manipulation, like maybe I'll get her
Speaker 2: and then she'll just put up with whatever, because he's
Speaker 2: obviously been able to put up with like women have
Speaker 2: let him treat them like shit and not take care
Speaker 2: of his children.
Speaker 1: Do you think though, that this kind of thing is
Speaker 1: like a symptom. I guess I'm like asking, is this
Speaker 1: like Chicken or the egg? Is this is this kind
Speaker 1: of thing like a symptom of the fact that we're
Speaker 1: like in the age of the scam right now, and
Speaker 1: that like people are constantly lying to each other with
Speaker 1: online dating, Like women are online every day making tiktoks
Speaker 1: like crying where they're like, we've been dating for a
Speaker 1: few weeks, everything was going great.
Speaker 5: Turns out he just got out of jail.
Speaker 1: Everything he told me was a lie, like blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: Like is that Do you think shows like this kind
Speaker 1: of tell guys, oh, just lie and like they'll fall
Speaker 1: in love with you eventually, like for your fucking personal
Speaker 1: I don't know what it tells them. Or do you
Speaker 1: think the scamming is just like what's being shown on
Speaker 1: these shows like what you know, Chicken or Egg?
Speaker 2: No, I think this is what men do outside the
Speaker 2: pods as well. Yeah, I think I think or both.
Speaker 2: I mean, people lie to date, but I think that's
Speaker 2: the whole thing. Men will do, like the lie and
Speaker 2: offer things and be like oh yeah, I'm gonna I
Speaker 2: like that movie.
Speaker 5: Oh I love that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I work here, and then it's like, well,
Speaker 2: once we fuck, I'll never talk to you again. Like
Speaker 2: I think that's part of dating, Like yeah, is lying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but what I guess I mean like the Little
Speaker 1: Way to White Lies. Persuasion is different to me than
Speaker 1: like lying about fundamental shit like what you do for
Speaker 1: a living, like the fact that whether you've been to
Speaker 1: prison or not, like whether you have children, Like these
Speaker 1: are massive, unavoidable part They're not like opinion sways about
Speaker 1: like you know what I mean.
Speaker 5: Like people are lying about huge things.
Speaker 1: And I just don't understand cognitively, like what they think
Speaker 1: is gonna happen because the truth will come out. But
Speaker 1: then are they is it? Like they don't care or
Speaker 1: like I don't get why people are doing it in
Speaker 1: real life. I don't get why people are doing it
Speaker 1: on the shows. Like I just don't get it, Like
Speaker 1: what's causing this?
Speaker 6: Is it?
Speaker 1: Just like because we are in the age of scamming,
Speaker 1: Like everybody's trying to scam everybody right, well, I.
Speaker 3: Mean are you watching Real Housewives of New York right now?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like her husband of many years sold a bunch
Speaker 2: of bit and does all this stuff, and like someone tweeted,
Speaker 2: like once a man on TV goes, you know, it's
Speaker 2: a lot of work keeping up with your lifestyle. It's
Speaker 2: like he's going to go to prison any minute, and
Speaker 2: that's your partner forever. I mean, we we've talked about
Speaker 2: the case, but there was a man drugging his wife
Speaker 2: and letting the neighborhood raper for year, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. And it's like, I don't know, I know
Speaker 2: it's the age of the scam because we get all
Speaker 2: because the Internet makes it easier and AI and all
Speaker 2: of that, so there's more and there's documentaries about the scam.
Speaker 2: So scams are in like Anadelby I guess, but I
Speaker 2: think people just always.
Speaker 1: I did have friends in high school whose dad's had
Speaker 1: second families multiple so I guess you're right. It's like
Speaker 1: been forever, and it's probably just more conscious now because
Speaker 1: now but people now there's no documentaries about it. Tindler
Speaker 1: Swindler and like all these like.
Speaker 2: Or they think, Okay, this woman's going to be in
Speaker 2: love with me, so then by the time I tell
Speaker 2: her I have three kids, she'll like.
Speaker 5: Put up with it. She'll be so happy to meet
Speaker 5: my three kids. Oh my god, Well, I.
Speaker 2: Think the producers bully them to get to the wedding
Speaker 2: even if they were going to break up.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: But arrently, she's husband fucking took money behind her back
Speaker 2: that wasn't hers and spent it that wasn't his.
Speaker 5: Like that was a wild thing. And he was like,
Speaker 5: I didn't want to cause you any more stress.
Speaker 1: It's like, this is stressing me out, that you're going
Speaker 1: to buy my back and spending our money.
Speaker 5: Fuck.
Speaker 1: Ugh, housewives, we're in a golden age. I'm so behind.
Speaker 1: I haven't watched Potomac yet. I got a I just
Speaker 1: caught up last night on a bunch of OC New
Speaker 1: York and Tall Lake.
Speaker 5: I'm caught up on those, but OC I have to
Speaker 5: finish and I have to Oh see is wild? What's
Speaker 5: going on? Oh my god, I'm so behind.
Speaker 1: I know. I just want a Lexis to get fucked over.
Speaker 1: You know, I just thought, oh my god, she's really
Speaker 1: really hard to deal with. Okay, Oh but Amy Landecker
Speaker 1: is a icon. She's so cool. I love people that
Speaker 1: love their work. And yeah, her journey that was amazing.
Speaker 1: I could have talked to her for like another three hours.
Speaker 5: She was amazing. Yeah, I'm a fan. I'm a fan.
Speaker 5: I love love love.
Speaker 3: Let's move on to what what'd this stripeg do?
Speaker 5: This week?
Speaker 1: For our WWSPD, we'd like to point you to the
Speaker 1: Domestic Abuse Victim Advocate Locator on the Military one Source site.
Speaker 1: Terry one Source is a program that provides resources and
Speaker 1: support to active duty, National Guard and Reserve service members
Speaker 1: and their families anywhere in the world. Their website is
Speaker 1: all very like we understand military life, because I feel
Speaker 1: like I wanted to find something that was like, if
Speaker 1: you're just like a wife of a soldier already started
Speaker 1: exhibiting the kind of behaviors that we saw in this episode,
Speaker 1: like what would you do? What would your resources be?
Speaker 1: So I think this seems like a great organization, great site.
Speaker 1: The Domestic Abuse Victim Advocate Locator is a way for
Speaker 1: people who have served in the military or their family
Speaker 1: members who are suffering from abuse to connect with shelters
Speaker 1: and advocates no matter where they live. For more information,
Speaker 1: go to Militarywsource dot mil dot mill and that will
Speaker 1: be posted in our stories the day this episode comes
Speaker 1: out and Saved Forever. In our WWSPD Highlight amazing.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for that, and next week we
Speaker 2: will be doing the Presence of Absence that makes Sense
Speaker 2: from season twenty four, episode sixteen. Thanks so much for listening,
Speaker 2: Love you guys, Bye. That's Messed Up as an Exactly
Speaker 2: Right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot.
Speaker 2: Com, follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up
Speaker 2: Pod and on Twitter at Messed Up Pod, and follow
Speaker 2: us personally at Kara Klank and.
Speaker 3: At Glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
Speaker 2: and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and to our.
Speaker 1: Mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and
Speaker 1: to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Geen
Speaker 1: Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers
Speaker 1: Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at
Speaker 1: Exactly Right Media.
Speaker 4: Down the dun
Speaker 5: Yeah,