Speaker 1: Episode one, Should you still be listening to Dave Ramsey?
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Frugal Friends Podcast, where you'll learn to
Speaker 1: save money, embrace simplicity, and live with your life. Here
Speaker 1: your host Jen and Jill Don't don't do. Welcome to
Speaker 1: the Frugal Friends Podcast. My name is Jen, my name
Speaker 1: is Jill, and welcome to everyone who has tuned into
Speaker 1: this one episode. Because of its title, we welcome you
Speaker 1: hot take. Yeah, so salacious content click we If you
Speaker 1: know us, you know that we don't use clickbait or
Speaker 1: salacious or extremist content. And so what you're gonna get
Speaker 1: here today is really an answer to the honest question
Speaker 1: should you still be listening to Dave Ramsey? And we
Speaker 1: have firm stances on that, and we are going to
Speaker 1: go through a few articles that we found on the
Speaker 1: internet with opposing views and saying what we do and
Speaker 1: don't agree with each of them, because there are So
Speaker 1: that is what today's episode is and spoiler alert, freedom
Speaker 1: remains the same it is and will continue to be
Speaker 1: our message to make your own choices and do what's
Speaker 1: best for you. And so yes, that's and that's going
Speaker 1: to be part of our advice and answer to this question,
Speaker 1: right I do want to say at the start of
Speaker 1: this I think that there's something really glamorous right now,
Speaker 1: at least in the financial world, to kind of bash people,
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, or it's specifically Dave Ramsey,
Speaker 1: and so I hope and I know Jen and I
Speaker 1: it is our aim to not do that. We want
Speaker 1: to specifically be looking at what is going to be
Speaker 1: financially beneficial for us, not get a leg up in
Speaker 1: this industry because of who we do or don't like
Speaker 1: their personhood. So we want to be very careful about that.
Speaker 1: At the start here, we think that it's important to
Speaker 1: be talking about because well, I don't want to discount
Speaker 1: someone's humanity or who they are as a person. When
Speaker 1: we're talking about where we do and don't get advice
Speaker 1: from what we do or don't follow. It's important to
Speaker 1: have this conversation of who are the big talking heads
Speaker 1: in the industry, what's helpful, what's not Where can we
Speaker 1: be going for valuable helpful resources and tips. So that's
Speaker 1: the perspective that we're coming at this from, partially because
Speaker 1: it is a topic of conversation right now, UH is
Speaker 1: should I be listening to any Ramsey. There's so many
Speaker 1: people out there talking, and so many different opinions flying,
Speaker 1: and a lot of angry people. We have encountered a
Speaker 1: lot of angry two and just and we want to
Speaker 1: already angry? Are we just? We want to bring it
Speaker 1: back down a little bit. We want to answer these questions.
Speaker 1: We want to bring a realistic approach, we want to
Speaker 1: be kind, and we want to speak freedom. And so
Speaker 1: that's the message. I am sure we're still probably going
Speaker 1: to take people off, so we'll check the inbox in
Speaker 1: about a month. But yeah, but first before we start
Speaker 1: making people upset, let's have a word from our sponsors,
Speaker 1: the Frugal Friends Shop. Oh I just love how that sounds.
Speaker 1: I wish I could go there. I can go there
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Speaker 1: a challenge workbook. This episode is also brought to you
Speaker 1: by the Radical Middle. It's that place that's in between
Speaker 1: two extremes, and, contrary to some belief, is neither neutral
Speaker 1: nor complacent. The radical middle is a firm stance on
Speaker 1: taking what works and leaving what doesn't. Those who take
Speaker 1: a stance in the radical middle will often endure side
Speaker 1: effects including headache, nausea, loss of Facebook friends, criticism of
Speaker 1: held beliefs, and more. The radical middle. If you're looking
Speaker 1: for a perfect side, you won't find it here. Yes,
Speaker 1: oh who and that's it, folks, that's our on ourthing.
Speaker 1: You need to know to respond too, Well, there you go? Okay?
Speaker 1: So uh. If you are um still a fan of
Speaker 1: Frugal Friends after this episode, you want to queue up
Speaker 1: another very similar perspective. Episode one thirteen. We talked to
Speaker 1: Merrily of Easy Budget about how her family modified the
Speaker 1: Baby Steps to pay off over a hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 1: of debt. And that's one of our most popular episodes.
Speaker 1: She has an amazing debt free story and we love
Speaker 1: debt free stories on the Frugal Friends podcast. Another episode
Speaker 1: I would encourage you to queue up is actually one
Speaker 1: not from our show. It is from Choose five and
Speaker 1: it is episode five every It's titled why Everyone Needs
Speaker 1: Dave Ramsey and why you should Ignore Him, and that
Speaker 1: episode all the way back from January. It was the
Speaker 1: first episode of Choose I I I ever listened to.
Speaker 1: It was how I found Choose f I back in
Speaker 1: and it is the inspiration for this episode because in
Speaker 1: two thousand seventeen, my husband and I had just finished
Speaker 1: paying off seventy eight thousand dollars of debt in two years,
Speaker 1: using the Total Money Makeover kind of as our our
Speaker 1: guide for that two years, and we were just coming
Speaker 1: off of that and I was really at a loss,
Speaker 1: like obviously I knew which steps were next, but I
Speaker 1: did refer to it as a debt payoff hangover. And
Speaker 1: it was this episode that really taught me that I
Speaker 1: could succeed financially and do things that were different from
Speaker 1: the advice that I had just been consuming daily. I
Speaker 1: was a daily listener of the Dave Ramsey Show. I
Speaker 1: was daily taking steps to pay off debt, and so
Speaker 1: this opened up a new world for me. It is
Speaker 1: what I needed in that inner rim. And it took
Speaker 1: a kind and firm stance on the philosophy and so
Speaker 1: but that was back in I think things have kind
Speaker 1: of escalated since then, um, and so we'd love to
Speaker 1: take a fresh stance on it. But if you want
Speaker 1: to get the feel for where I was several years ago,
Speaker 1: then definitely episode five of Choose f I is another
Speaker 1: one to queue up. It's so helpful to hear that
Speaker 1: context and what was helpful for you and useful And
Speaker 1: again we're not doing this episode just to throw our
Speaker 1: hat in the ring. We are genuinely hoping that US
Speaker 1: two can be helpful for people to identify what's going
Speaker 1: to be best for you. Where does freedom exist? I know, often,
Speaker 1: especially for those who aren't in the financial space, aren't
Speaker 1: talking about personal finance. Often. Dave Ramsey's the most well
Speaker 1: known personal finance person out there, and so oftentimes he's
Speaker 1: just the one that's first recommended. At least that's what
Speaker 1: I see. And here in the circles that I have
Speaker 1: been in that you know aren't connected to the personal
Speaker 1: finance space, and so I think this is helpful to
Speaker 1: take a look at, well, what does this mean as
Speaker 1: we start to enter into curiosities about our own personal
Speaker 1: finances and making decisions that we don't just have to
Speaker 1: go to the low hanging fruit. Low hanging fruit is great,
Speaker 1: it's easy to pluck, but then where can we go
Speaker 1: from there? Too? So that's helpful is what we want
Speaker 1: to do today. Absolutely, So our first article is from
Speaker 1: Arrest Your Debt Dave Rams. Baby steps are outdated? Find
Speaker 1: out why for the most true and unbuy it. I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily agree on and honestly a few things I
Speaker 1: find contradictory. But that's with any author. They can they
Speaker 1: throw their own opinion. As podcasts, we also put our
Speaker 1: opinion in. So it's going to go through the baby
Speaker 1: steps and see what the author has to say and
Speaker 1: then also what we think. So let's us let's start
Speaker 1: with baby step one Jill Yeah, and I will highlight
Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot of good things that come
Speaker 1: before we get into the baby steps in the article,
Speaker 1: so feel free to check it out and to find
Speaker 1: that radical middle. Our sponsor today like take a look
Speaker 1: at both sides, like what we're gonna be doing in
Speaker 1: in this article. But so, as many of us know,
Speaker 1: Dave Ramsey is well known for the baby steps, this
Speaker 1: blueprint and guide path forward and what do we do
Speaker 1: with our finances? Which I will say at the star,
Speaker 1: I mean our opinions will get woven into this. So
Speaker 1: take that with a grain of salt. But I would
Speaker 1: say when I first started on my personal finance journey,
Speaker 1: that was helpful for me. Dave Ramsey is a part
Speaker 1: of my story and you know some of the decisions
Speaker 1: that we've made, So I can't ignore that, and that's
Speaker 1: there's something really tangible about that, and I think useful
Speaker 1: to say what just where do I start? And then
Speaker 1: what should I look at next? So so Dave Ramsey
Speaker 1: and the people around him did that these baby steps.
Speaker 1: In the first one many of you are familiar with
Speaker 1: is to start an emergency fund. Okay, awesome. However, and
Speaker 1: as this article points out, uh that emergency fund recommendation
Speaker 1: is listed at one thousand dollars for everybody, no matter
Speaker 1: who you are, and that was written in two and
Speaker 1: it was never updated. So we are in quick math, folks,
Speaker 1: we are in two. So that is a good thirty
Speaker 1: years for already solid years later, and so for you know,
Speaker 1: just for the sake of the fact that incomes have risen,
Speaker 1: cost of goods have risen. According to an inflation calculator,
Speaker 1: to get the buying power of one thousand dollars, you
Speaker 1: need over one thousand, nine hundred dollars today. So even
Speaker 1: at that, the recommendation should at least be two thousand.
Speaker 1: But we also know that there's many other approaches to
Speaker 1: a starter emergency fund. Again, I will say, for myself,
Speaker 1: when I was just starting out in my own financial journey,
Speaker 1: the one thousand dollars is actually like a really helpful
Speaker 1: I liked having a number and I liked that that
Speaker 1: felt attainable to me at the time, even in my
Speaker 1: literal place of like financial poverty. UM, I had many
Speaker 1: other resources available to me, but I was legitimately financially
Speaker 1: below the poverty line. So for me that was helpful,
Speaker 1: but again still outdated, Like if it was attainable for
Speaker 1: me living below the poverty line, then probably, yeah, we
Speaker 1: need to relook at this number. Yeah, absolutely, I I
Speaker 1: think for a starter emergency fund, I would say some
Speaker 1: people feel better having a fully funded emergency fund before
Speaker 1: they start paying off debt. I didn't feel that way,
Speaker 1: and I don't think necessarily Sometimes people will use that
Speaker 1: security blanket to procrastinate in paying off debt, and I
Speaker 1: don't think that's healthy either. But yeah, definitely a more
Speaker 1: appropriate number in two is two thousand dollars, especially with
Speaker 1: the rate of inflation we have been seeing, especially if
Speaker 1: you have kids, or a single income, or own a home.
Speaker 1: All of that, there are just so many reasons to
Speaker 1: um up that starter emergency fund. So let's look at
Speaker 1: baby step two, pay off all of your debt and
Speaker 1: using the debt snowball method. So let's look at the
Speaker 1: two parts of that. But of you may be familiar
Speaker 1: with the debt snowball. It is putting your debts in
Speaker 1: order from smallest to largest and paying off the smallest
Speaker 1: up to the largest. Some of you may also be
Speaker 1: familiar with the alternative version, which is the debt avalanche,
Speaker 1: which is listing your debts out highest interest rate to
Speaker 1: lowest and paying it off that way. And that is
Speaker 1: the method the author of this article recommends, but they
Speaker 1: use kind of they use a very radical example for
Speaker 1: why they recommend this. So they're saying, if you've got
Speaker 1: twenty dollars debt and eighteen dollars in student lawyers by
Speaker 1: doing the debt avalanche versus the debt snowball because the
Speaker 1: interest rates are so different, but in fact, the household
Speaker 1: credit outlier with ab salutely you should be focusing on
Speaker 1: that before lower interest debts like student loans. But in
Speaker 1: the average, I think it's much more important that we
Speaker 1: look to kind of behavioral economics and psychology and focus
Speaker 1: on what's going to get us results long term versus mathematically.
Speaker 1: So the avalanche, yes, it does save you more money
Speaker 1: if you're in the average. I've calculated this several times
Speaker 1: using median credit card and student loan averages, and you
Speaker 1: really by using a same same scenarios, same standards, you
Speaker 1: say maybe a couple of hundred dollars by using the
Speaker 1: debt avalanche. Obviously I'm using um American medians, so you
Speaker 1: should look at the numbers for yourself. But I think
Speaker 1: it's much more important that we pay attention to our psychology,
Speaker 1: and the debt snowball does give you more upfront winds,
Speaker 1: which your motivation is lowest when you're starting any journey,
Speaker 1: so I think it's important to frontload that confidence and
Speaker 1: those winds so that you are more likely to finish
Speaker 1: because you pay you save more money by paying off
Speaker 1: your debt than you do by giving up, and so
Speaker 1: that I think that is probably mathematically accurate. I don't
Speaker 1: know how to calculate that, right, Okay, So you can
Speaker 1: also use a combination. There is nobody telling you you
Speaker 1: have to pick one or the other. We used a combination.
Speaker 1: So we had debts with pretty similar interest rates, and
Speaker 1: we chose to start with the highest one first. But
Speaker 1: it had a bunch of little ones inside of it.
Speaker 1: So we did the snowball inside of that and we
Speaker 1: we did it. We made it our own. So do
Speaker 1: whatever you want. Yeah, and we just had We just
Speaker 1: had one debt, so we just did the debt payoff methods.
Speaker 1: We're all going to find ourselves in different places and
Speaker 1: you can. You can very much. So if you want
Speaker 1: to do the debt avalanche, you can make your own
Speaker 1: quick winds and and set up systems for that. But
Speaker 1: that is the this behavioral psychology behind quick winds is there,
Speaker 1: and whichever when you choose, incorporated into the method you use.
Speaker 1: So the next part of this is to pay off
Speaker 1: all the debt. Whatever method you use, and that is
Speaker 1: some that's sometimes argued as don't invest until you're completely
Speaker 1: consumer debt free. Uh. And I will say, I think
Speaker 1: it's okay to invest while paying off debt, but it's
Speaker 1: also okay not to. And so we are big propos
Speaker 1: e's of focusing on one big goal at a time
Speaker 1: that I think is the biggest takeaway when you're trying
Speaker 1: to reach financial independence, reach financial freedom, every milestone on
Speaker 1: your journey should be focused on with intention that we're
Speaker 1: not trying to do multiple goals, multiple big goals at
Speaker 1: a time, and paying off debt is a really big goal.
Speaker 1: So neither of us invested while paying off debt. I
Speaker 1: do think you should get your employer match. And again
Speaker 1: this for me, this is all opinion right now, but
Speaker 1: get that employer match. It's something you are entitled to.
Speaker 1: It's like saying to your employer, if you don't take
Speaker 1: it that no, you don't have to pay me everything
Speaker 1: you've promised me. I will give this back to you.
Speaker 1: So don't do that. Get your employee match because you
Speaker 1: deserve it. And I am a big proponent for investing,
Speaker 1: but I think I'm I'm more of a proponent for
Speaker 1: progress and I think when we focus on multiple goals
Speaker 1: at once, when you have too many irons on the fire,
Speaker 1: one will get forgotten about at least one. So know
Speaker 1: what you're capable of and just and focus in on that,
Speaker 1: put your resources in on that, and don't be ashamed
Speaker 1: or guilted by people saying you have to do five
Speaker 1: things at once. I will say that if you were
Speaker 1: at the end of your debt freedom journey, consider maxing
Speaker 1: out a roth ira if you're close to debt freedom. Um,
Speaker 1: we became debt free in August seen and that was
Speaker 1: enough time for us to max out seventeens roth ire A.
Speaker 1: I know a hundred percent of people who are debt
Speaker 1: free would go back and add a few months to
Speaker 1: their debt payoff journey if they could get an extra
Speaker 1: six thousand. In the wrath era, the limit is low
Speaker 1: and once tax day comes, you lose it for the
Speaker 1: previous year. And so if it comes down to adding
Speaker 1: a few months to your debt payoff journey to be
Speaker 1: able to put a little extra in a wrap era,
Speaker 1: that is one thing. Um. Thankfully we didn't have to
Speaker 1: do differently because it just was a good timing. But
Speaker 1: I would say that that's a really good reason to
Speaker 1: invest while still paying off your debt. Jill thoughts, I know,
Speaker 1: I just like it's all excellent, and I think continues
Speaker 1: to highlight this tension, this radical middle of all. Right,
Speaker 1: here's this step two, here's the exact ways that it's prescribed,
Speaker 1: and yet we're finding alternatives to that that are still
Speaker 1: relevant and wise advice. And so I think part of
Speaker 1: our argument in highlighting this article and highlighting these stuff
Speaker 1: ups is to say that there is freedom, there's there's
Speaker 1: this path, the very strict and stringent baby steps here,
Speaker 1: and we know that Dave Ramsey says do not veer
Speaker 1: from them, and yet we're also saying that we see
Speaker 1: people veer from them with wisdom, intentionality, thought research, and
Speaker 1: that too goes well. So I think it's helpful to
Speaker 1: see the highlight here of what is the very specific
Speaker 1: thing that this is saying, and what does that that
Speaker 1: mean and where is their potentially wiggle room. Of course,
Speaker 1: we all decide which wiggle room we're going to take,
Speaker 1: which path we're going to follow. But again, as we
Speaker 1: asked the questions, should we still be listening, It's like, well,
Speaker 1: what do you want? What kind of freedom and permissions?
Speaker 1: Do you want what kind of person? Yeah? Are you
Speaker 1: what works best for you? Yeah? So I think I
Speaker 1: would say the main thing I want to get across
Speaker 1: for baby step two is investor, don't invest, but work
Speaker 1: on a singular goal with intention. If you're going to invest,
Speaker 1: make it small, make it unnoticeable, and and work with
Speaker 1: your numbers to see. You know, if it's going to
Speaker 1: take you six years to pay off your debt, you
Speaker 1: for sure want to be investing like while you while
Speaker 1: you do that. But if it's going to take you
Speaker 1: maybe a year or two, then maybe maybe you don't.
Speaker 1: Maybe you just hit those those debt numbers really hard.
Speaker 1: It's up to you work with intention on one big
Speaker 1: thing at a time. Baby Step number three is as
Speaker 1: far as Dave Ramsey's plan goes, is to fully fund
Speaker 1: and emergency fund. Fully funded emergency fund, it's a lot
Speaker 1: of fun and that that is three to six months
Speaker 1: of expenses. This is still standard advice. We don't have
Speaker 1: much push back on this, other than to say, choose
Speaker 1: three or six months on your job based on your
Speaker 1: job's volatility, whether or not you have two incomes in
Speaker 1: your household, and your own comfort level. So taking all
Speaker 1: of those things into consideration, choosing what's going to be
Speaker 1: best for you, whether it is three months or six months,
Speaker 1: and then we would say no less than three months
Speaker 1: and no more than six because it is important to
Speaker 1: invest as much as possible early. You do you do
Speaker 1: want to be moving forward and not just solely focusing
Speaker 1: on stacking a ton of money into a fully funded
Speaker 1: emergency fund. Again, it's for an emergency. So no less
Speaker 1: than three because you want to find yourself prepared. No
Speaker 1: more than six because you want to be focusing on
Speaker 1: other goals. Once you reach that in six months, you
Speaker 1: will do fine. If that income goes away you find
Speaker 1: yourself in a crazy emergency. Yeah, yeah, we we hope
Speaker 1: statistics will will show about six months is pretty good.
Speaker 1: So we feel confident in saying that that's still standard advice.
Speaker 1: So maybe step four this is this is it. This
Speaker 1: is the breaker. This is the big deal breaker. Uh,
Speaker 1: you're right, okay, I am. It's a good thing it's
Speaker 1: cold outside because I would be sweating. Uh. Invest fient
Speaker 1: of your income in raw di RaSE and tax advantage accounts,
Speaker 1: which is still very standard advice. UM percent is fine
Speaker 1: for those starting early, maybe in your early twenties. But
Speaker 1: most people will say is ideal for for for most people,
Speaker 1: regardless of when you're when you're starting, unless you're making
Speaker 1: well into six figures, there's no need to save fifty
Speaker 1: of your income. I love you fire people, but I
Speaker 1: mean a number that big can cause a lot of
Speaker 1: unnecessary stress and pressure. And yeah, I mean play with
Speaker 1: your numbers. So bank rate actually has a great retirement
Speaker 1: calculator that we will link in the show notes, and
Speaker 1: it allows you to play around with your with percentages
Speaker 1: specific to your numbers. So yeah, and it's just the
Speaker 1: retirement playing calculator from bank rate and it's a really
Speaker 1: good one. But yeah, so so to honestly, twenties a
Speaker 1: personal opinion of mine, but depending on people's income, it
Speaker 1: may be more or less. I used to when I
Speaker 1: would listen to the show, I hope people would always
Speaker 1: be calling in see how they could get around the
Speaker 1: fifercent rule and invest less, and Dave would get mad,
Speaker 1: And now I understand why. It's because investing is so
Speaker 1: much more powerful than paying off debt. And that's not
Speaker 1: emphasized a ton on the show. But baby step four
Speaker 1: is the most important baby step. Baby step two is
Speaker 1: only important because it makes babies step four easier. And
Speaker 1: it comes down to that, like that what the one thing? Like,
Speaker 1: what's the one thing? By doing it makes everything easier
Speaker 1: or unnecessary. That's that's the baby step two. It makes
Speaker 1: investing easier, and so that's why we focus on that
Speaker 1: one thing. Get it done, and then we can move
Speaker 1: on to the bigger and better things, which are investing.
Speaker 1: So that's not the part I have a problem within.
Speaker 1: I love raw fires and tax advantaged retirement accounts because
Speaker 1: the biggest fees that you will pay are the taxes
Speaker 1: of when you are working for your money. When money
Speaker 1: works for itself and compounds on interest, that money is
Speaker 1: tax at a far less rate than what you are
Speaker 1: taxed on for your time, which to me is unethical,
Speaker 1: but hey whatever. So you know, if you see a
Speaker 1: law ever to get that abolished, vote for it. But
Speaker 1: you should be invested because the money that your money
Speaker 1: is making essentially saves you more money than when you
Speaker 1: are working, like for spending exchanging your time for dollars.
Speaker 1: So it's more efficient to have your money working for
Speaker 1: itself essentially, So that's great too. It's Dave's actual investing
Speaker 1: advice and that's the only thing I will say about
Speaker 1: his advice that is bad because it's not in the
Speaker 1: best interests of his listeners. It is manipulative and self serving.
Speaker 1: Overall of you are unfamiliar. He insists that people use
Speaker 1: financial advisors that sell actively managed funds. He recommends this
Speaker 1: because he says they can get higher returns than low
Speaker 1: cost index funds, which may not even be incorrect, though
Speaker 1: time and time again we have seen that actively managed
Speaker 1: funds do not outperform low cost index funds, even the
Speaker 1: ones that do it not proven they can do it
Speaker 1: consistently over forty years, and due to their high fees,
Speaker 1: investors who do out earn an index fund still earn
Speaker 1: less over time over the long run because they are
Speaker 1: investing less because of the fees. So, if anything, it
Speaker 1: is a wash, I guess. But the fact that you
Speaker 1: invest less because of upfront fees does mean that index
Speaker 1: fund low cost index funds do outperform time and time again,
Speaker 1: and no actively managed fund manager can stay consistently above
Speaker 1: the market for forty years. That it's just never been done.
Speaker 1: So Dave Ramsey will never change his stance on this.
Speaker 1: Index funds were available, they were still a quarter of
Speaker 1: the price of actively managed mutual funds, so they were
Speaker 1: still lower cost, they were not as easily available, so
Speaker 1: it was still a good idea to go through a
Speaker 1: finance advisor to get your your your mutual funds. But
Speaker 1: now with technology, it's made it so simple for the
Speaker 1: average investor in the beginning advestor to create their own portfolio,
Speaker 1: start their own retirement funds, and do it all on
Speaker 1: their own without having to pay a commission based sales
Speaker 1: agent or even a fee only um financial advisor. We
Speaker 1: love certified financial planners who charge based on just an
Speaker 1: hourly rate versus the commission on what they sell you like.
Speaker 1: We we love certified financial planners, but you don't even
Speaker 1: need one to get started. But Dave Ramsey will never
Speaker 1: change his stance on this because his endorsed local provider program,
Speaker 1: his his actual financial advisor advertising programs. What platform is
Speaker 1: what it is, it's the most profitable arm of his
Speaker 1: entire company. So the money the it's not just advisors,
Speaker 1: it's realtors and other off but the money of these
Speaker 1: advisors like pay him every month to advertise their business
Speaker 1: makes more than financial Peace sales radio ads on the
Speaker 1: show book sales, everything else. So those are marketing tools
Speaker 1: to get you. Everything else is just a marketing tool
Speaker 1: to get you to sign up with e l P
Speaker 1: s um which from people I have spoken to about
Speaker 1: their experience with e l P s will tell you
Speaker 1: the majority that those people they don't have to follow
Speaker 1: the Dave Ramsey system like to advertise, they just have
Speaker 1: to say they do. And so I would say, before
Speaker 1: blindly following financial advice, we should always ask why. That's
Speaker 1: probably my favorite quote of this whole article. Before blindly
Speaker 1: following financial advice, we should always ask why or who's
Speaker 1: getting paid. So that's the probably the second most thing
Speaker 1: I'm passionate about in that's contrarian um to the whole
Speaker 1: Ramsey ecosystem. We'll talk about the first thing in the
Speaker 1: next article. M uh. And I'm so glad Jen that
Speaker 1: you've highlighted this and I can hear your bash before this,
Speaker 1: and it's part of why, you know, before we hit
Speaker 1: the record button, Gen was like, I've been wanting to
Speaker 1: do a show like this for like since we started
Speaker 1: this podcast, and I think partially in part two the
Speaker 1: podcast you referenced earlier that you listen to that helped
Speaker 1: you on your journey. And so I think again when
Speaker 1: we say we want to use this platform, the Frugal
Speaker 1: Friends platform to help people. Here we go this is
Speaker 1: like the main part of this episode that we hope
Speaker 1: would be helpful for people, that there there are ulterior
Speaker 1: motives for many people. We try to be as full
Speaker 1: disclosure as possible with some of the advice that we
Speaker 1: give that, yes, sometimes we talk about businesses, corporations, organizations
Speaker 1: who are giving us a kickback to talk about that.
Speaker 1: We will be transparent about that, and we will at
Speaker 1: the end of the day always speak freedom to that
Speaker 1: that there's not just one way there all are other
Speaker 1: options that you can pursue. And so highlighting this very piece,
Speaker 1: even if you follow all of the other advice and
Speaker 1: steps strictly and stringently, this is important to know that
Speaker 1: there is a very real reason money lining the pocket
Speaker 1: to you know, push this specific form of investing that
Speaker 1: we would push against. Yeah, and I'm not guessing on
Speaker 1: the fact that the ELP program makes the most money
Speaker 1: in Ramsey Solutions. Somebody who worked at Ramsey Solutions who
Speaker 1: does not anymore told me this, So I'm not guessing
Speaker 1: and I'm not using We don't use personal opinions and
Speaker 1: education when we're trying to help people. And and I
Speaker 1: just I'm super passionate and how unethical this is. But
Speaker 1: I wouldn't let my personal opinions. I don't know. This
Speaker 1: is just something that I feel is extremely unethical and
Speaker 1: it's a personal opinion, but it's also like in reality unethical, yeah,
Speaker 1: because it utilizes people's Like we love it. If we
Speaker 1: can find the one thing and we only have to
Speaker 1: follow that one thing, it is harder work to blend
Speaker 1: and think for ourselves and figure out what's going to
Speaker 1: work best for us. And so then it is disappointing
Speaker 1: when the one thing might lead you astray and might
Speaker 1: not actually be in your best interests. And so we
Speaker 1: are advocating for a blend. Okay, let's move on to
Speaker 1: Baby Step five, which talks about funding kids college education.
Speaker 1: So okay, yes, I'm going to speak now my opinion.
Speaker 1: I think this is fine advice. It's it's fine where
Speaker 1: it sits in the version of Next Steps, But I
Speaker 1: think this also is irrelevant for those of us who
Speaker 1: don't have children. Uh, And people may choose various approaches
Speaker 1: as it relates to whether or not this is a
Speaker 1: financial goal of yours, So it is up to you
Speaker 1: on how extensively you would choose to do this. We
Speaker 1: Jen and I would recommend a five twenty nine gen
Speaker 1: uses backer. You can get sidebar fifteen dollars by signing
Speaker 1: up at Frugal Friends podcast dot com slash backer if
Speaker 1: you are interested in setting up a five twenty nine
Speaker 1: for your kids specifically to invest in their education. I
Speaker 1: will say personally, I don't have kids, Jill talking. Who
Speaker 1: knows if I ever will, So this is partially irrelevant,
Speaker 1: but I have considered it. If I do have kids,
Speaker 1: I'm not servant that this is going to be a
Speaker 1: priority for me. I am becoming while I have my
Speaker 1: master's degree, I am becoming less and less enamored with
Speaker 1: UM higher education, the entire system, the overall value that
Speaker 1: it actually brings for the amount of money that it costs,
Speaker 1: and what education is going to mean in the future,
Speaker 1: what employees are going to require from people as far
Speaker 1: as skill set and what they're able to do. I
Speaker 1: just think things are shifting. So that's that's a whole
Speaker 1: other like I'm sure unpopular opinion, but there's room here. Again,
Speaker 1: of course, I'm going to speak freedom to choose what's
Speaker 1: going to be relevant to what you actually desire. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree. I put five thousand in there, and and
Speaker 1: now I don't touch it, and we'll just see what
Speaker 1: happens um and if it's not enough, he'll pay for
Speaker 1: the rest. If he didn't go to college, I will
Speaker 1: give it to a grandchild or somebody else. So that's
Speaker 1: that is really the extent of how I use it,
Speaker 1: all right, So moving on to baby step number six,
Speaker 1: pay off your house. This is also a contentious one
Speaker 1: to especially in the fire movement or real estate. People
Speaker 1: love to leverage debt in mortgages because it is some
Speaker 1: of the lowest inter US debt that you can get
Speaker 1: and the return on investment is higher. So this is
Speaker 1: we feel personal preference too, So we don't plan to
Speaker 1: pay off our home early. We refinanced last year to
Speaker 1: a or maybe like a year and a half ago,
Speaker 1: to a fifteen year fixed mortgage, and it is saving
Speaker 1: us over a hundred thousand dollars on the total cost
Speaker 1: to own our home, and for us, that's enough. We
Speaker 1: don't plan on selling our home, and if you know,
Speaker 1: if we do, we just build equity in it faster.
Speaker 1: But we also know. Our primary residence is not a investment, honestly,
Speaker 1: it's a place to live. If we weren't paying a mortgage,
Speaker 1: we'd be paying a rent. We may choose to buy
Speaker 1: a bigger house with a higher mortgage. Who knows. We
Speaker 1: don't know. We can't predict the future, but we feel
Speaker 1: good about where we're at, not paying it off faster
Speaker 1: than a fifteen year, but we moved to a fifteen
Speaker 1: year so that we could save extra money. But so
Speaker 1: I did some calculations and it shows I'd save about
Speaker 1: twenty dollars by putting an extra five a month at
Speaker 1: my mortgage. But I would rather put that money in
Speaker 1: an IRA or into real estate to make more than
Speaker 1: that in the long run. So that's kind of where
Speaker 1: I sit on that. But we know a ton of
Speaker 1: people who have paid off their mortgages and they love it.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a weight lifted, and I fully support
Speaker 1: that too, absolutely. And finally step seven is build wealth
Speaker 1: and give, And I can't argue there. Okay, you've done
Speaker 1: all these other things, you've paid off your debt, you're investing,
Speaker 1: You've thought about your children and what you want to
Speaker 1: set them up for. Excellent, build wealth and gives. So
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, those who have followed Dave
Speaker 1: Ramsey steps. I mean, there's a lot of people out
Speaker 1: there who are doing excellent and they are at this
Speaker 1: stage of building wealth and giving. That's awesome. It's a
Speaker 1: lot of people who have not followed Dave ram these
Speaker 1: steps and they are building wealth and giving, and we
Speaker 1: just we encourage this aim, especially the generosity piece, and
Speaker 1: I am personally very grateful that this is part of
Speaker 1: that message, that this is part of those steps, and
Speaker 1: it is also a part of our message to be generous.
Speaker 1: We don't aim at frugality just to hold tightly the
Speaker 1: resources that we have, but also so that we can
Speaker 1: give to others and care for those around us and
Speaker 1: our immediate communities and neighborhoods and beyond. For me, it's
Speaker 1: a big why behind frugality. So I am I'm glad
Speaker 1: that it's here. Absolutely uh so are next article we
Speaker 1: will not spend as much time in. But I wanted
Speaker 1: to find an article with some defensive points on Dave
Speaker 1: Ramsey that we're not from the Ramsey Solutions website, and
Speaker 1: I actually I couldn't find many it I could find one.
Speaker 1: I found one I'm the whole Internet and I and
Speaker 1: it has become super popular to bash Dave Ramsey. So
Speaker 1: I found so many articles, uh, and videos and stuff
Speaker 1: just bashing him as a human being. And we we
Speaker 1: don't human beings are are human beings, and we don't
Speaker 1: bully anyone no matter how much they bully anybody. That's
Speaker 1: not what we are here to do. So we found
Speaker 1: this one in defense of Dave Ramsey. And so this
Speaker 1: is where we really want to start talking about, not
Speaker 1: just so we covered the financial advice, and now we
Speaker 1: want to cover the methods for executing financial advice. Whether
Speaker 1: you go with Dave Ramsey's baby steps or you veer
Speaker 1: off um. He also has very distinct methods for keeping
Speaker 1: you going on the path. And so that is kind
Speaker 1: of where we're getting to here, Jill, I will let
Speaker 1: you take it away. So this article comes from Campfire
Speaker 1: home setting, and again we're just showing you different sides
Speaker 1: of this coin, what various people are saying about this.
Speaker 1: And I think the one thing that stands out to
Speaker 1: me from this article is just the top critiques. So
Speaker 1: the the article goes through what they have heard and
Speaker 1: seen and bread as top critiques of Dave Ramsey, Dave
Speaker 1: Ramsey solutions, and then they then go into all of
Speaker 1: their arguments over some of these top critiques and why
Speaker 1: they still support Dave Ramsey unashamedly. And so some of
Speaker 1: those top critiques include things that have to do with
Speaker 1: this personhood, like the Internet has attacked all things and
Speaker 1: we've we've experienced that too, even on our for podcast show.
Speaker 1: Critiques about things we can't change, like the fact that
Speaker 1: Dave Ramsey is an old white man. That's a critique
Speaker 1: he's received. Uh, none of that he can change. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm looking through old white mail. He can't change that. However,
Speaker 1: that does morph into the reality that we can choose,
Speaker 1: though it doesn't mean that we have to follow one person.
Speaker 1: Of course, this isn't what the article is saying. This
Speaker 1: is my response to that top critique that we now
Speaker 1: live in an environment and context and setting where there
Speaker 1: are many voices and we can find the voice that
Speaker 1: speaks to us, or the collection of voices that speak
Speaker 1: to us. That if hearing messaging and perspective from a
Speaker 1: position of privilege is not helpful, useful, or relevant to you,
Speaker 1: then fantastic find someone who is helpful, useful, and relevant
Speaker 1: to you. So I'm not I'm not going to stand
Speaker 1: on that platform of but just listen to him, like, yes,
Speaker 1: there are perspectives that come from him that are a
Speaker 1: result of him being elderly male. Yeah, And I mean
Speaker 1: so I think I think one of I think this
Speaker 1: critique in particular is a response to the lack of
Speaker 1: diversity in personal finance, and I hope that representation matters.
Speaker 1: And it's why we we fill our if you notice,
Speaker 1: we don't have many interviews, but we tend to try
Speaker 1: and stick to women and women of color because we
Speaker 1: believe that women like diversity, especially female diversity, is important
Speaker 1: and personal finance and I love some you know, old
Speaker 1: white men. You know, they're super kind, I mean, in
Speaker 1: my personal kind, smart wise, but they have had so
Speaker 1: much you know, I guess advertising and had so much
Speaker 1: platform for so long, and representation right now, I think, um,
Speaker 1: and diversity is super important. Um. And so I don't
Speaker 1: want to vilify anyone for being an old white man.
Speaker 1: But it still doesn't mean like I'm going to give
Speaker 1: them more of a platform. Um. But that's so that's
Speaker 1: kind of maybe the heart behind our our interview selection process.
Speaker 1: If you if you hadn't noticed it. Yeah, it's not
Speaker 1: entirely a fairiason to listen to or not listen to somebody.
Speaker 1: But if that's a barrier for anyone in particular, then yeah,
Speaker 1: we don't. We don't have to. There are plenty of
Speaker 1: other voices out there who are going to be helpful,
Speaker 1: and so maybe connected to that, maybe a little bit
Speaker 1: peripheral to that is another critique that his advice is outdated,
Speaker 1: And we just went through an entire article that kind
Speaker 1: of high lights some of those key points, what's outdated,
Speaker 1: what remains, and so yes, I don't think that that
Speaker 1: can be completely argued. There there are aspects that are outdated.
Speaker 1: Why he sticks to it dogmatically, that's maybe another story
Speaker 1: yet to see an article about that, But okay. The
Speaker 1: next critique is that he doesn't take into account various
Speaker 1: financial situations. And yes, there is a very one size
Speaker 1: fits all approach to Dave Ramsey's baby steps that makes
Speaker 1: it really difficult for people who find themselves in alternative
Speaker 1: situations that aren't your cookie cutter, status quo middle class
Speaker 1: American situation. This might not be an approachable advice for you,
Speaker 1: And that's a strong critique, and you know. Of course,
Speaker 1: this article pushes back on that by saying, yeah, but
Speaker 1: if you still follow it, you'll do well. It's like
Speaker 1: there can be a tone deaf peace to this. Of yes,
Speaker 1: but there's a whole population of people saying this isn't
Speaker 1: helpful for them. Uh and okay, so there's gonna be
Speaker 1: those who love it and those who don't. And again freedom, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think we have to. So I heard this really
Speaker 1: good advice from a mentor recently where he said, do
Speaker 1: as I did, not as I do, And so he
Speaker 1: Dave Ramsey, older white guy, like multi multi millionaire, he's
Speaker 1: he's so wealthy from his business. Of course you can't
Speaker 1: take you can't follow what he's doing right now. It
Speaker 1: is unrealistic. He is outside most of our income brackets.
Speaker 1: So if you're looking at the person he is today,
Speaker 1: of course he is completely out of touch. And I'll
Speaker 1: say this all the time. It's it's super important that
Speaker 1: we that you get some of some, not all, but
Speaker 1: some of your financial content from people who are paying
Speaker 1: off debt and who have just recently paid off debt,
Speaker 1: if that's one of your goal goals, because they are
Speaker 1: most in touch with what's going on. But then it's
Speaker 1: also important to get some content from people who are
Speaker 1: far outside and far away who have the perspective. So
Speaker 1: you need uh some you know, advice content consumption from
Speaker 1: everybody on the journey. You get a well rounded picture
Speaker 1: of the advice. You can't just consume one like one's
Speaker 1: sphere that Yeah, And and so I think what the
Speaker 1: author is saying, simply saying the plan didn't account for
Speaker 1: something I don't have, does not mean we throw our
Speaker 1: hands up and go home. I think that's actually really wise,
Speaker 1: because we're all about the radical middle. Take what works,
Speaker 1: leave what doesn't. And that doesn't mean we promote something
Speaker 1: that we don't agree with, but we are not going
Speaker 1: to completely vilify a human for the things that don't
Speaker 1: work for us. Yeah. And I think that goes right
Speaker 1: hand in hand with the radical middle that we're talking about.
Speaker 1: And this concept of taking hold of one thing without
Speaker 1: letting go of another. I think that's another key concept
Speaker 1: for how do we find the radical middle. It's not
Speaker 1: a letting go of something to go chase after something else, right,
Speaker 1: that's the extreme, that's the pendulum swing. But how do
Speaker 1: we hold on to what is helpful on this side
Speaker 1: as well? As what's helpful on the other side, and
Speaker 1: so find the middle ground for ourselves. Yeah. But then
Speaker 1: finally the next critique that I think we'd be remiss
Speaker 1: to not highlight here, This is the number one. This
Speaker 1: is the this is the number one. This is what
Speaker 1: you've been waiting for. The approach. M tell us about
Speaker 1: the approach, Jen, So it is terms like so and so.
Speaker 1: This is where my husband Travis and I differ on
Speaker 1: how we view Dave Ramsey. So I'll give you a
Speaker 1: little insight into how we view it. Dave uses terms
Speaker 1: and has increasingly used this in the last several years,
Speaker 1: like strategies that are are angry, shame inducing, guilt inducing,
Speaker 1: but some people refer to as tough love, buckling down um.
Speaker 1: The author himself references um like the military and their tactics, um,
Speaker 1: and which is he is in support of. And so
Speaker 1: he finds this system to work for him, which is
Speaker 1: kind of similar to Travis. He needed tough love to
Speaker 1: assent a quote unquote tough love to really kind of
Speaker 1: buckled down. Whereas for us, Jill and I, we know
Speaker 1: guilt and shame and fear do work faster. We are
Speaker 1: more afraid of losing things than we are excited for
Speaker 1: what we will gain. So the methods based on are
Speaker 1: based on psychology and what's most efficient. Dave is very
Speaker 1: efficient in in the methods that he uses to motivate people,
Speaker 1: but they are also unhealthy, and so we know that
Speaker 1: through encouragement, flexibility, grace, community, it's not as efficient, but
Speaker 1: you get to the same destination, maybe a little long,
Speaker 1: may take a little longer, but you get to the
Speaker 1: same destination with fewer scars. And that is the path
Speaker 1: that we are taking, and that is the only path
Speaker 1: that we feel is right. And so this is the
Speaker 1: number one reason we no longer have Ramsey personalities on
Speaker 1: our show. We no longer get invitations to go to
Speaker 1: Ramsey events. Um, and this one will it lasts it was.
Speaker 1: So that's and that we that's our hard stance, that's
Speaker 1: our radical middle hard stance is that there is one
Speaker 1: right way to do it, and the right way is
Speaker 1: flexibility and grace and recognizing unique situations and the messy
Speaker 1: taking the messy path. That is the healthier path, and
Speaker 1: maybe the slower path, but it is it is the
Speaker 1: right path. I've got to say, even as I was
Speaker 1: reading this article again, while I want to hold both
Speaker 1: while I want to take what is useful, like take
Speaker 1: the meat, spit out the bones. Reading through the article,
Speaker 1: what did feel a little ikey to me when I
Speaker 1: got to those parts of You know, even the writer
Speaker 1: is is using terms like how bad do you want?
Speaker 1: It references to the military and their tactics and how
Speaker 1: we need to have a militaristic approach to our finances.
Speaker 1: And I do believe that for some that's what they want,
Speaker 1: that's what they would identify works for them. I will say, though,
Speaker 1: it's not what works for most people. And the military
Speaker 1: is a very specific machine and system that is producing
Speaker 1: like weapons of war, and I'm just not sure how
Speaker 1: relevant that is when it comes to like our personal
Speaker 1: lives and finds. If I would say, if that is
Speaker 1: what you want, what you think you need, that it's
Speaker 1: time to kind of look deeper and figure out why
Speaker 1: you need that, why you reference that's the reference. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: I hold an opinion and value system that says it
Speaker 1: is kindness that leads us towards change and a turning
Speaker 1: in the non beneficial habits and behaviors that we have.
Speaker 1: I do not believe that shame is a beneficial mode invader.
Speaker 1: It can produce some behavioral changes, but like you said, Jen,
Speaker 1: it's it's not without scars, it's not without unhealth where
Speaker 1: it ends us up not only in our view of self,
Speaker 1: but our view of others in the world around us.
Speaker 1: And I'm I'm speaking from personal experience, personal opinion, and
Speaker 1: my own background in mental health to say that this
Speaker 1: is it's not useful. Uh, And we do not want
Speaker 1: to align ourselves or motivate people in that way. And
Speaker 1: we want to put a strong caution out there if
Speaker 1: this is the way that behavior change or motivation is happening,
Speaker 1: that again, it's not without cost for us. If it's fear,
Speaker 1: guilt and shame that is moving us towards some sort
Speaker 1: of end goal. Yes, so you know how we combat
Speaker 1: the guilt and shame that's out there with fun and
Speaker 1: the bill of the That's that's right. It's time for
Speaker 1: the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby
Speaker 1: was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid
Speaker 1: off your mortgage, maybe your car died and you're happy
Speaker 1: to not have to pay that bill anymore. Stuck bills,
Speaker 1: Buffalo bills, Bill Clinton, this is the bill of the week. Hi, Jen, Hi, Jill,
Speaker 1: This is Kate from Illinois, and my bill of the
Speaker 1: week is I just sent in my first mortgage payment.
Speaker 1: We bought our first home in this really wild market
Speaker 1: right now. But it's a great house for us. We
Speaker 1: were able to put down ten percent. Feeling really great
Speaker 1: about that. Not too much house and h we're just
Speaker 1: we're just tempted to be entering this extra step into adulthood.
Speaker 1: So that is my bill of the week. Cheers, ladies.
Speaker 1: Oh that's awesome. Yes, congratulations. It was an insane market,
Speaker 1: so that definitely deserves a a bill celebration. Oh, in
Speaker 1: a specially exciting moment. To be able to pay ten
Speaker 1: down payment on your house, to be getting into a house,
Speaker 1: how wonderful. We hope that you enjoy every minute of that.
Speaker 1: And it can be exciting to have a bill that
Speaker 1: we don't mind paying because it means we have a
Speaker 1: home of our own that we can call call home.
Speaker 1: Well done, and congrats, are celebrating with you. If you
Speaker 1: want to submit your bill of the week, visit Frugal
Speaker 1: Friends podcast dot com slash bill to leave us a bill.
Speaker 1: And now it's time for learning a lightning role. And
Speaker 1: all right, aren't you glad to change the pace for
Speaker 1: the second half of the show of the second the
Speaker 1: last five lightning fast. Yeah. Uh, some of the most
Speaker 1: helpful advice we've received in thinking for ourselves because we
Speaker 1: think for ourselves. We think that having a well rounded
Speaker 1: view of personal finance information is important and you need
Speaker 1: to think for yourself because your situation is unique, and
Speaker 1: if your situation is not unique, your desires are unique
Speaker 1: and that makes your financial plan unique. So this is
Speaker 1: how we started into our you know, adventure, from the
Speaker 1: money advice we were being told by Dave Ramsey and
Speaker 1: going off the beaten path. For me, I think it
Speaker 1: was just this overall permission for freedom that it doesn't
Speaker 1: have to one way. I think again, when I was
Speaker 1: first on the journey, my introduction to how do you
Speaker 1: handle finance as well was Financial Peace University. That's like
Speaker 1: my legitimate story and part of my journey, And so
Speaker 1: I did have that idea of Okay, I'm going to
Speaker 1: follow this to a t. And I think it was
Speaker 1: both in realizing my own circumstances were different from what
Speaker 1: Dave Ramsey steps permitted, like I couldn't actually do some
Speaker 1: of the things. Uh, it just wasn't attainable for me,
Speaker 1: and my situation looked different and I just wasn't finding
Speaker 1: like any off ramp or little branch or shoot that
Speaker 1: I could follow. And so both in kind of starting
Speaker 1: to explore hearing from others within my circle, talking with
Speaker 1: other people about finances, but then like finding other resources,
Speaker 1: which in large part as to do with the community
Speaker 1: that you and I have built. Gen friendship with you
Speaker 1: and introduction to different other personal finance platforms has been
Speaker 1: really helpful and continuing me on that journey of freedom,
Speaker 1: and then what I found and experienced as a result
Speaker 1: of finding what works for me, and I would describe
Speaker 1: freedom as the opposite of shame, and shame is not
Speaker 1: just associated with you know, personal finance, but of course
Speaker 1: we can find a lot of shame in the personal
Speaker 1: finance space, spouted off by others and ourselves. I think
Speaker 1: we can be our own worst critic and enemy in
Speaker 1: this process, and our own internal narrative can be really
Speaker 1: non beneficial for yeah, seeing what the goals and achievements
Speaker 1: that we actually want to see. Like on the one hand, yeah,
Speaker 1: it could be somewhat of a motivator, but it can
Speaker 1: also be the biggest barrier and paralyzer and derailer of
Speaker 1: whole time. So I think that's that's what gets in
Speaker 1: the way. It's it's a huge stumbling block. And so
Speaker 1: where I have found freedom, kindness, lack of fear, guilt
Speaker 1: and shame. That has been like the best piece and
Speaker 1: advice that I've honestly received from people as I continued
Speaker 1: to think for myself find a path that works for me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think any advice that insists that the ends justify
Speaker 1: the means is advice that you should not be listening
Speaker 1: to because in reality, the end is death. So we
Speaker 1: are always living in the journey. The ends never justify
Speaker 1: the means. Life is the means. And I think we
Speaker 1: were yeah, we were on a podcast. We were doing
Speaker 1: a podcast last night. Um it was the Avocado Toast budget.
Speaker 1: They have a really acute couple. They call their listeners
Speaker 1: toast Ese and and yeah, we were talking about you know,
Speaker 1: the journey and uh, to enjoy the journey, permission to
Speaker 1: enjoy the journey, And I was like, yeah, because the
Speaker 1: destination is death because you have it's all about the journey.
Speaker 1: So freedom is the is a goal so that we
Speaker 1: can enjoy the journey more so, Yeah, so that was
Speaker 1: a Yeah, permission for freedom is a huge thing for me.
Speaker 1: So it was a conglomeration of advice from discovering podcasts.
Speaker 1: I it started with the Choose if I podcast, which,
Speaker 1: in full transparency, I don't listen to it anymore. I
Speaker 1: don't think a lot of financial podcasters actually listen to
Speaker 1: financial podcasts because you know, you know, we for for
Speaker 1: obvious reasons. Um. But in the you know, those episodes
Speaker 1: very much taught me an alternative way of thinking. And
Speaker 1: then I would also say, Paula Pant Joe Sulcihi, I
Speaker 1: have to credit them afford anything and stacking Benjamin's respectfully respectively,
Speaker 1: they say, I mean saved me from choosing a one
Speaker 1: of those e l P s. I had a meeting
Speaker 1: with one and I just got this ikey feeling like
Speaker 1: looking at all of the fees and being a naturally
Speaker 1: or being frugal, having been trained for two years to
Speaker 1: become frugal and become an intentional consumer, I just felt
Speaker 1: icky about all of the front load front end loads
Speaker 1: and fees and um it was through listening to them
Speaker 1: talk about index funds that I learned an alternative way.
Speaker 1: So I would say It's a a collection of advice
Speaker 1: that I have heard from those who have gone before me,
Speaker 1: and now my hope is to be that voice for
Speaker 1: somebody else that I am not telling them what to do,
Speaker 1: but I am telling them what I have done and
Speaker 1: what I have seen and helping them navigate those waters
Speaker 1: so they can have the same story for someone else. Awesome, Jen,
Speaker 1: And so in summary, should you listen to Dave Ramsey
Speaker 1: still you decide and know that there is freedom and
Speaker 1: permission and other alternative voices out there speaking helpful advice.
Speaker 1: Find the path that works for you. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: hope that you by the end of this know where
Speaker 1: we stand and we welcome everyone. I don't. We don't.
Speaker 1: Whoever you are, whatever path you follow, whatever income bracket,
Speaker 1: you are welcome here. This is a community that you
Speaker 1: can feel safe exploring finances, exploring your financial options, and
Speaker 1: so this is a safe space for you to do that.
Speaker 1: And that's the part that we play in this ecosystem.
Speaker 1: I agree. Thank you everyone so much for listening, and
Speaker 1: we want to thank you also for your kind reviews
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, because it's like the only platform that
Speaker 1: actually allows you to leave review like this one fun
Speaker 1: informative and thought provoking. It comes from tater bug like
Speaker 1: it makes me angry. For some Taters it happens to
Speaker 1: be five stars. I love listening to Jen and Jill.
Speaker 1: Their chemistry is great, dialogue is thoughtful but not stiff,
Speaker 1: and I really just enjoy spending time with them. Great approachable,
Speaker 1: thought provoking content. Oh I love that phrase spending time
Speaker 1: with us, Like that is what we're doing together while
Speaker 1: we sit in your years. We're spending time together. I
Speaker 1: like that image. And yeah, we hope you find safety
Speaker 1: and permission and freedom and helpful useful tips here. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: And we want to thank our friends who share these
Speaker 1: episodes on social media as well. When you do, it
Speaker 1: helps more people find the show and be helped by
Speaker 1: this radical middle idea. And so when you share the
Speaker 1: latest episode on Instagram as a post or in your
Speaker 1: stories or reels, We're going to add you to our
Speaker 1: monthly drawing. For every five tags and reviews we get
Speaker 1: each month, we are giving away fifty dollars for you
Speaker 1: to spend in the Frugal Friends Shop. So keep leaving
Speaker 1: us reviews wherever you listen to podcasts, primarily Apple. Leave
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Speaker 1: at Frugal Friends podcast dot com to enter yourself into
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Speaker 1: We'll see you next week hopefully by Frugal Friends is
Speaker 1: produced by Eric Syrian M. How do you feel, gen
Speaker 1: and you're still sweaty? Well, it's cold. It's cold in
Speaker 1: my house, so um so that's kind of saved me.
Speaker 1: You know. We keep the keep the heat off for
Speaker 1: as long as possible. Yeah, well we did it. We
Speaker 1: did the thing that you wanted to do for so
Speaker 1: so long, I know. And it's such a long episode
Speaker 1: where too, there's so much to say, especially as you
Speaker 1: seek to be even handed with this and kind and
Speaker 1: helpful and useful. That's always our goal. And yeah, and
Speaker 1: seek to minimize the one star reviews. Hey, if you
Speaker 1: don't have haters, you're not doing it, right am. I Well,
Speaker 1: that's what the haters say. But we still like the
Speaker 1: five stars. I love the five stars. Actually, right now
Speaker 1: is a great time to leave us a five star
Speaker 1: review because we anticipate several one star reviews and it
Speaker 1: also enters you into drawing. Okay, ye