1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:22,796 --> 00:00:25,796 Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:26,196 --> 00:00:34,396 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. Ever since the twenty sixteen elections, I've 4 00:00:34,396 --> 00:00:38,076 Speaker 1: been kind of obsessed with the following thought. We tend 5 00:00:38,116 --> 00:00:41,836 Speaker 1: to think that Donald Trump got elected because his base 6 00:00:42,596 --> 00:00:47,356 Speaker 1: of in our imagination, angry middle class or lower middle class, 7 00:00:47,876 --> 00:00:52,436 Speaker 1: dispossessed white voters turned out in big numbers for him. 8 00:00:52,476 --> 00:00:55,596 Speaker 1: But that's only part of the story, because it's also 9 00:00:55,636 --> 00:00:58,516 Speaker 1: true that if you look at people who voted for 10 00:00:58,636 --> 00:01:02,436 Speaker 1: Barack Obama but stayed home instead of showing up to 11 00:01:02,516 --> 00:01:05,916 Speaker 1: vote for Hillary Clinton, fifty one percent of those voters 12 00:01:06,036 --> 00:01:10,156 Speaker 1: were people of color. That's a significant number, and it 13 00:01:10,196 --> 00:01:12,076 Speaker 1: means that we could also frame things a little differently. 14 00:01:12,116 --> 00:01:14,836 Speaker 1: Instead of blaming the Trump voters for getting Trump elected, 15 00:01:15,156 --> 00:01:18,076 Speaker 1: we could simply say, why didn't Hillary Clinton manage to 16 00:01:18,156 --> 00:01:20,796 Speaker 1: appeal to voters of color in the same way that 17 00:01:20,836 --> 00:01:25,436 Speaker 1: Barack Obama did. Now that's a hypothesis and an obsession, 18 00:01:25,596 --> 00:01:28,836 Speaker 1: it's not a full blown theory, and I'm incredibly grateful 19 00:01:28,956 --> 00:01:31,356 Speaker 1: that we have today to discuss this topic with US 20 00:01:31,436 --> 00:01:35,356 Speaker 1: doctor Andre Perry. Andrea is the David M. Rubinstein Fellow 21 00:01:35,356 --> 00:01:38,836 Speaker 1: at the Metropolitan Policy Program at the famous Brookings Institution 22 00:01:38,876 --> 00:01:43,836 Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. He works on race, structural inequality, education, 23 00:01:43,916 --> 00:01:48,196 Speaker 1: economic inclusion, and recently wrote a fantastic and significant article 24 00:01:48,276 --> 00:01:52,316 Speaker 1: called Black Women Are Looking forward to the twenty twenty elections. Andrea, 25 00:01:52,356 --> 00:01:54,836 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Oh, thanks for 26 00:01:54,876 --> 00:01:56,916 Speaker 1: having me. One of the really profound points I think 27 00:01:56,916 --> 00:01:59,516 Speaker 1: that you make in your research paper about black women 28 00:01:59,916 --> 00:02:02,076 Speaker 1: is that it's not just that black women vote for 29 00:02:02,116 --> 00:02:05,956 Speaker 1: black women or for other black candidates. It's that there's 30 00:02:05,996 --> 00:02:10,756 Speaker 1: an overlap in policy interests between black women running for office, 31 00:02:11,396 --> 00:02:14,636 Speaker 1: some black voters, as well as lots of other progressive 32 00:02:14,716 --> 00:02:19,636 Speaker 1: voters representing different racial backgrounds, different economic backgrounds. I think 33 00:02:19,636 --> 00:02:21,916 Speaker 1: that's a hugely important point that we tend to forget. 34 00:02:22,476 --> 00:02:24,476 Speaker 1: So I want to ask you in light of that point, 35 00:02:25,636 --> 00:02:27,996 Speaker 1: was there a lack of policy for Hillary Clinton? Did 36 00:02:28,036 --> 00:02:31,436 Speaker 1: she not have policies that were sufficiently progressive to match 37 00:02:31,676 --> 00:02:35,556 Speaker 1: African American voters or was it really about personalities which 38 00:02:35,636 --> 00:02:37,756 Speaker 1: was doing the heavy lifting? Or is it both? Somehow 39 00:02:38,716 --> 00:02:42,716 Speaker 1: it's both. Certainly when you look at the candidates who 40 00:02:43,156 --> 00:02:46,796 Speaker 1: are getting elected there and you hear this phrase all 41 00:02:46,876 --> 00:02:53,116 Speaker 1: the time. They're unapologetically black, they will put forth items 42 00:02:53,156 --> 00:02:58,956 Speaker 1: that really fill out a black agenda for community improvement. 43 00:02:59,276 --> 00:03:04,076 Speaker 1: So if you're not explicitly talking about improving or reducing 44 00:03:04,116 --> 00:03:07,916 Speaker 1: the wage gap between black women and white men, or 45 00:03:08,036 --> 00:03:12,276 Speaker 1: black women and and white women, then you're really not 46 00:03:12,436 --> 00:03:16,756 Speaker 1: speaking to the issues. So the court there is racial inequality, 47 00:03:16,796 --> 00:03:19,996 Speaker 1: as you argue in your interpees. Yet racial and equality 48 00:03:20,276 --> 00:03:24,476 Speaker 1: is probably the number one and number two things. And 49 00:03:24,516 --> 00:03:29,636 Speaker 1: there are also issues that white Democrats simply do not raise. 50 00:03:30,156 --> 00:03:35,196 Speaker 1: And so the issue of voting rights are is something 51 00:03:35,276 --> 00:03:40,356 Speaker 1: that black elected officials bring up, but white Democrats or 52 00:03:40,396 --> 00:03:43,916 Speaker 1: Republicans just it doesn't rank is one of the issues 53 00:03:44,476 --> 00:03:47,436 Speaker 1: that they're going to campaign on. And so if you're not, 54 00:03:47,596 --> 00:03:50,796 Speaker 1: why don't Democrats wake up, smell the coffee and realize 55 00:03:50,796 --> 00:03:54,196 Speaker 1: that voting rights is a pretty excellent crucial issue for them, 56 00:03:54,276 --> 00:03:57,156 Speaker 1: especially if they need the votes of black people. Well, 57 00:03:57,516 --> 00:04:04,476 Speaker 1: the privilege of not really understanding that people are actively 58 00:04:04,596 --> 00:04:07,716 Speaker 1: taking your vote away, I mean, I hear all the time, Well, 59 00:04:08,036 --> 00:04:12,356 Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with getting IDs or having people having 60 00:04:12,436 --> 00:04:15,996 Speaker 1: people bring their IDs to the polls. There's nothing wrong 61 00:04:15,996 --> 00:04:19,076 Speaker 1: with that. That's that's an easy fix and and to 62 00:04:19,156 --> 00:04:22,076 Speaker 1: a certain degree, black folk always catch up to the 63 00:04:22,116 --> 00:04:26,716 Speaker 1: next new rule, but it but to ignore the active 64 00:04:29,036 --> 00:04:32,916 Speaker 1: pursuit to suppress black vote is a privilege that black 65 00:04:32,956 --> 00:04:38,476 Speaker 1: folks just we don't have. And over time, white politicians, 66 00:04:38,556 --> 00:04:41,596 Speaker 1: regardless of party, just ignore that issue. So those are 67 00:04:41,596 --> 00:04:44,676 Speaker 1: the policy issues, and we can talk more about why 68 00:04:44,676 --> 00:04:47,596 Speaker 1: it is that, even if it's purely on the basis 69 00:04:47,636 --> 00:04:50,916 Speaker 1: of self interest, white politicians don't get beyond the fact 70 00:04:50,956 --> 00:04:52,836 Speaker 1: that they don't instinctively think about these things and raise 71 00:04:52,916 --> 00:04:56,116 Speaker 1: them anyway. But that's the policy side. What about the 72 00:04:56,676 --> 00:04:59,716 Speaker 1: politics side? What about the personalities? Do you Is it 73 00:04:59,796 --> 00:05:02,076 Speaker 1: your view that it would have made a difference had 74 00:05:02,316 --> 00:05:04,676 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton had a person of color on the ticket 75 00:05:04,676 --> 00:05:07,556 Speaker 1: with her. Oh yeah, And I don't know if you remember, 76 00:05:08,116 --> 00:05:12,516 Speaker 1: there were a bunch of memes um enduring the election 77 00:05:12,596 --> 00:05:17,636 Speaker 1: cycle that she would sort of masquerade as being black 78 00:05:18,116 --> 00:05:20,556 Speaker 1: here and there, and it was there was just a 79 00:05:20,636 --> 00:05:24,716 Speaker 1: lack of authenticity of connecting the black voters. And that's true. 80 00:05:24,756 --> 00:05:29,556 Speaker 1: I mean the choosing Tim Caine for instances, you know, um, 81 00:05:29,876 --> 00:05:33,356 Speaker 1: someone who can speak Spanish, um, and you know, the 82 00:05:33,516 --> 00:05:35,636 Speaker 1: in the black and brown communities, we were saying, well, 83 00:05:35,636 --> 00:05:39,356 Speaker 1: why didn't you just pick someone of Latin descent and 84 00:05:40,156 --> 00:05:45,356 Speaker 1: sal ultimate white guy at diversification, I can speak another language, absolutely, 85 00:05:45,556 --> 00:05:49,116 Speaker 1: So using race as a prop is something that she 86 00:05:49,676 --> 00:05:57,116 Speaker 1: was charged doing, um throughout her career and resided absolutely. 87 00:05:57,196 --> 00:06:00,676 Speaker 1: I mean, at some point, you don't do what's politically expedient. 88 00:06:00,716 --> 00:06:04,316 Speaker 1: You got to show what you're about. And um, and 89 00:06:04,356 --> 00:06:07,156 Speaker 1: I you know, and I also believe that the Clinton's 90 00:06:07,196 --> 00:06:11,156 Speaker 1: in general. Remember Bill Clinton was seen described as the 91 00:06:11,156 --> 00:06:14,196 Speaker 1: first black president at some point, but he and he 92 00:06:14,276 --> 00:06:16,756 Speaker 1: clearly wasn't, not in terms of his policies, not in 93 00:06:16,836 --> 00:06:20,796 Speaker 1: terms of just his being um. But they they managed 94 00:06:20,836 --> 00:06:24,196 Speaker 1: to use symbols to show their they're allegis to black 95 00:06:24,236 --> 00:06:26,196 Speaker 1: But that's just not enough. It's interesting when you think 96 00:06:26,196 --> 00:06:27,756 Speaker 1: back to it's a long time ago. No, but when 97 00:06:27,796 --> 00:06:31,916 Speaker 1: people actually said that, what do you think they actually meant? 98 00:06:33,116 --> 00:06:36,876 Speaker 1: I mean, it was that he showed affection for a 99 00:06:36,916 --> 00:06:40,156 Speaker 1: black community and um, it wasn't it that he'd also 100 00:06:40,236 --> 00:06:43,636 Speaker 1: overcome adversity in his own upbringing. Yeah, that that he 101 00:06:43,796 --> 00:06:47,356 Speaker 1: was he was a poor folk. He actually had strong 102 00:06:47,476 --> 00:06:52,836 Speaker 1: ties to to black communities growing up. Um. But that's 103 00:06:52,916 --> 00:06:56,036 Speaker 1: just not enough. There's not enough political policy meet there. 104 00:06:56,516 --> 00:07:01,196 Speaker 1: Um what he remember, more people, um went to prison 105 00:07:01,436 --> 00:07:04,596 Speaker 1: under his watch, More Black people went to prison under 106 00:07:04,876 --> 00:07:08,756 Speaker 1: his watch. A little fair about that, though. I mean, so, 107 00:07:08,796 --> 00:07:12,556 Speaker 1: I'm impressed by James Foreman Junior's recent prize winning book 108 00:07:12,596 --> 00:07:15,556 Speaker 1: where he says, I'm going to oversimplified here, but that 109 00:07:16,476 --> 00:07:20,636 Speaker 1: a significant part of African American leadership at the national 110 00:07:20,756 --> 00:07:25,996 Speaker 1: level actually supported some of the crime reform stuff that 111 00:07:26,076 --> 00:07:29,996 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton signed that led to many many young African 112 00:07:29,996 --> 00:07:35,796 Speaker 1: American men being incarcerated. You know, black folk are we've 113 00:07:35,796 --> 00:07:39,356 Speaker 1: internalized this narrative that we are broken. I often say, 114 00:07:39,356 --> 00:07:42,996 Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with black people that ending racism can't solve. 115 00:07:43,476 --> 00:07:47,356 Speaker 1: That we are We're constantly blaming ourselves for the problem. 116 00:07:47,716 --> 00:07:50,476 Speaker 1: In terms of voting, we say, well, we don't vote, 117 00:07:50,836 --> 00:07:54,836 Speaker 1: even though our voting record has been at all time 118 00:07:54,956 --> 00:07:58,756 Speaker 1: high than in at least in the last eight to 119 00:07:58,836 --> 00:08:03,596 Speaker 1: ten years. Um. But we also internalize this notion that 120 00:08:03,996 --> 00:08:08,356 Speaker 1: if we can only do better amongst ourselves, then um, 121 00:08:08,636 --> 00:08:12,476 Speaker 1: we we will get our just desserts. And UM, we 122 00:08:12,556 --> 00:08:17,316 Speaker 1: don't necessarily deserve these policies until we get our house 123 00:08:17,396 --> 00:08:20,716 Speaker 1: in order. And that's just not And that's no different 124 00:08:20,716 --> 00:08:24,796 Speaker 1: than when I hear politicians telling kids to pull their 125 00:08:24,916 --> 00:08:27,156 Speaker 1: pants up and and as if that's going to get 126 00:08:27,236 --> 00:08:31,516 Speaker 1: them into to Harvard. You know that the bill cosby 127 00:08:31,636 --> 00:08:36,236 Speaker 1: rhetoric that absolutely so. Um. Yes, there are lots of 128 00:08:36,356 --> 00:08:39,956 Speaker 1: black folk who supported the crime bill and a lot 129 00:08:39,996 --> 00:08:45,956 Speaker 1: of other policies that Democrats um endorse essentially to buy 130 00:08:46,036 --> 00:08:52,796 Speaker 1: favor with white um sort of right leaning Republicans. But 131 00:08:52,876 --> 00:08:56,676 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, we compromise our policy 132 00:08:57,516 --> 00:09:00,596 Speaker 1: principles in the process and just that's just not a 133 00:09:00,636 --> 00:09:03,596 Speaker 1: way to go. Andrew, you mentioned impediments to voting, and 134 00:09:03,996 --> 00:09:05,796 Speaker 1: you know, as we work our way to talking about 135 00:09:06,396 --> 00:09:09,756 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, I think this is a hugely significant issue 136 00:09:09,796 --> 00:09:12,236 Speaker 1: and I want to get your thoughts about it. One 137 00:09:12,276 --> 00:09:15,916 Speaker 1: statistic that strikes me as very important is that if 138 00:09:15,916 --> 00:09:23,836 Speaker 1: you control for socioeconomic status, primarily poverty, African Americans actually 139 00:09:23,956 --> 00:09:28,156 Speaker 1: vote at a slightly higher rate than their white counterparts. 140 00:09:30,076 --> 00:09:34,756 Speaker 1: That said, like other poor people, African Americans who are 141 00:09:34,796 --> 00:09:40,676 Speaker 1: poorer don't have fantastic turnout records. What do you see 142 00:09:40,676 --> 00:09:43,676 Speaker 1: as the primary impediments. I mean, you've mentioned voter id laws, 143 00:09:43,716 --> 00:09:46,716 Speaker 1: but those are relatively new innovation. What do you see 144 00:09:46,716 --> 00:09:51,516 Speaker 1: as the genuine impediments to getting out the vote. Wow. One, 145 00:09:51,276 --> 00:09:57,036 Speaker 1: the criminal justice system has really suppressed blackmail votes. And 146 00:09:57,076 --> 00:10:00,756 Speaker 1: when you look at states, the gender differences in actual 147 00:10:00,916 --> 00:10:05,476 Speaker 1: numbers in the actual different districts is enormous. So you 148 00:10:05,756 --> 00:10:10,956 Speaker 1: can have in terms of actually lgible voters differences of 149 00:10:11,236 --> 00:10:16,716 Speaker 1: eleven twelve UM in some cases fifteen percent UM. Birmingham, 150 00:10:16,756 --> 00:10:21,556 Speaker 1: for instance, there's a close to eleven point difference between 151 00:10:21,596 --> 00:10:25,116 Speaker 1: eligible black male and black female. So and and that's 152 00:10:25,276 --> 00:10:28,596 Speaker 1: large fell in disenfranchisement or people still presently in cars 153 00:10:28,676 --> 00:10:33,236 Speaker 1: rader both that both, but it's even more than it 154 00:10:33,356 --> 00:10:38,596 Speaker 1: just creates a layer of suppression um that you know, 155 00:10:38,716 --> 00:10:43,996 Speaker 1: voter id laws and um um, changing the days of 156 00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:48,156 Speaker 1: or um or having early voting or not having earling voting. 157 00:10:48,196 --> 00:10:52,036 Speaker 1: Those things matter. But there are some substantive issues around 158 00:10:52,036 --> 00:10:57,676 Speaker 1: criminal justice, around racial violence and policing. Remember, there are 159 00:10:57,876 --> 00:11:03,276 Speaker 1: there's still intimidation tactics that occur all throughout the country. 160 00:11:03,516 --> 00:11:07,116 Speaker 1: There were attempts to suppress the youth vote UM this 161 00:11:07,196 --> 00:11:12,356 Speaker 1: past election cycle, and so folks are intimidate and there's 162 00:11:12,396 --> 00:11:16,676 Speaker 1: some parallels there with our brown counterparts, so our Latin 163 00:11:16,796 --> 00:11:24,636 Speaker 1: X Latino population. The talk about immigration overall will have 164 00:11:25,196 --> 00:11:29,276 Speaker 1: a suppression effect on voters. There's a reason why many 165 00:11:30,356 --> 00:11:35,076 Speaker 1: of our brown counterparts are not voting. It's not because 166 00:11:35,156 --> 00:11:38,796 Speaker 1: they don't want to, or they're too lazy, or they're disinterested. 167 00:11:39,596 --> 00:11:44,676 Speaker 1: But suppression is real, and intimidation tactics are some of 168 00:11:44,716 --> 00:11:49,636 Speaker 1: the primary impediments for folks getting out to vote. So 169 00:11:49,756 --> 00:11:52,436 Speaker 1: one thing that I hear an older generation of white 170 00:11:52,476 --> 00:11:56,276 Speaker 1: liberals saying a lot around the suppression question is there's 171 00:11:56,276 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 1: no question that there's suppression. But look how brutal the 172 00:11:59,756 --> 00:12:04,716 Speaker 1: suppression was under the era of segregation, and yet civil 173 00:12:04,796 --> 00:12:08,956 Speaker 1: rights marchers bravely marched and fought and in some cases 174 00:12:09,116 --> 00:12:12,396 Speaker 1: even died for the right to vote. And then that 175 00:12:12,436 --> 00:12:14,876 Speaker 1: older generation of liberals who lived through that, especially white 176 00:12:14,876 --> 00:12:17,116 Speaker 1: liberals who live through there, but sometimes African American liberals 177 00:12:17,156 --> 00:12:20,796 Speaker 1: as well, say, well, that was suppression, and their proper 178 00:12:20,836 --> 00:12:26,236 Speaker 1: response to suppression is activism rather than allowing oneself to 179 00:12:26,276 --> 00:12:30,196 Speaker 1: be intimidated. You know, I often find myself in these 180 00:12:30,236 --> 00:12:33,636 Speaker 1: intergenerational conversations, and I may imagine, maybe you do too. 181 00:12:33,916 --> 00:12:36,716 Speaker 1: What do you say when the older generation makes that argument, 182 00:12:37,596 --> 00:12:40,756 Speaker 1: I think that they're not really not. They don't have 183 00:12:40,796 --> 00:12:44,836 Speaker 1: a pulse of the energy that youth vote, particularly younger 184 00:12:44,876 --> 00:12:50,756 Speaker 1: people are bringing to elections. After Parkland, for instance, the 185 00:12:50,796 --> 00:12:54,716 Speaker 1: youth spoke not only with their votes, but they hit 186 00:12:54,756 --> 00:12:57,916 Speaker 1: the streets marching and many of them are were too 187 00:12:57,956 --> 00:13:02,796 Speaker 1: young to vote. But youth are always latching onto movements 188 00:13:02,796 --> 00:13:05,516 Speaker 1: and trying to teach the rest of us where to go. 189 00:13:05,596 --> 00:13:09,716 Speaker 1: The Black Lives Matter movement, for instance, really spoke to 190 00:13:09,836 --> 00:13:13,516 Speaker 1: what youth want. UM are elected officials to address. But 191 00:13:13,596 --> 00:13:16,476 Speaker 1: the problem is, and this goes back to our earlier conversation, 192 00:13:17,276 --> 00:13:21,436 Speaker 1: is that many elected officials simply don't put up policy 193 00:13:21,476 --> 00:13:25,476 Speaker 1: proposals that match the energy of young people now. UM. 194 00:13:26,196 --> 00:13:29,396 Speaker 1: Back in the day, there was much more alignment between 195 00:13:29,796 --> 00:13:34,156 Speaker 1: the civil rights leaders of that time and their deployment 196 00:13:34,236 --> 00:13:38,836 Speaker 1: of youth to address these issues, and by and large, 197 00:13:39,876 --> 00:13:45,236 Speaker 1: young and older voters UM definitely aligned on what they 198 00:13:45,316 --> 00:13:48,756 Speaker 1: wanted in terms of an agenda for for Black America. 199 00:13:49,076 --> 00:13:53,316 Speaker 1: There's misalignment today. UM. The middle class, the sort of 200 00:13:53,556 --> 00:13:56,876 Speaker 1: the bougie class, bougie Black folk have very different needs 201 00:13:57,356 --> 00:14:02,876 Speaker 1: than low income Black Americans. There's a lot of divergence 202 00:14:03,196 --> 00:14:07,756 Speaker 1: in terms of interest and so until what's an example, 203 00:14:07,796 --> 00:14:11,676 Speaker 1: just to conquertise. Oh, I mean criminal justice reform. I 204 00:14:11,676 --> 00:14:17,316 Speaker 1: mean you still hear older Americans blame black youth for 205 00:14:17,636 --> 00:14:23,276 Speaker 1: crime industry. I mean, how often after a police killing 206 00:14:23,316 --> 00:14:27,676 Speaker 1: of a young man you will hear older or older 207 00:14:27,996 --> 00:14:30,796 Speaker 1: or elders say, well, what did that boy do to 208 00:14:30,876 --> 00:14:36,236 Speaker 1: get shot? I mean there's still this um, this disbelief 209 00:14:36,996 --> 00:14:41,276 Speaker 1: that black boys are that we have to be perfect 210 00:14:41,596 --> 00:14:44,756 Speaker 1: in order to get justice. And but for a whole 211 00:14:44,796 --> 00:14:50,276 Speaker 1: slew of younger voters, they they want quality policing, no 212 00:14:50,516 --> 00:14:56,236 Speaker 1: questions asked, and until our politicians recognize that. And that's 213 00:14:56,236 --> 00:14:59,956 Speaker 1: why I think this new wave of elected officials, what 214 00:15:00,036 --> 00:15:06,596 Speaker 1: they bring, they're actually um listening to low income voters 215 00:15:06,636 --> 00:15:10,316 Speaker 1: and responding um and and they're getting a response. And 216 00:15:10,596 --> 00:15:12,596 Speaker 1: that's in terms of votes. So let's talk about that, 217 00:15:12,596 --> 00:15:15,556 Speaker 1: that new way that you wrote about. So interestingly, so 218 00:15:16,276 --> 00:15:20,396 Speaker 1: four more African American women represented in Congress than before 219 00:15:20,436 --> 00:15:24,556 Speaker 1: the twenty eighteen elections, that's a very marked and measurable improvement. 220 00:15:25,276 --> 00:15:28,396 Speaker 1: The candidates who ran for office successfully who were, as 221 00:15:28,396 --> 00:15:31,916 Speaker 1: you put it, unapologetically black, did they do what you 222 00:15:31,916 --> 00:15:35,316 Speaker 1: your playbook says. Did they emphasize the racial inequality in 223 00:15:35,316 --> 00:15:38,076 Speaker 1: the wage gap and voting rights. Is that were those 224 00:15:38,116 --> 00:15:41,836 Speaker 1: the issues that they made front and center in their races. Oh? Absolutely, 225 00:15:41,956 --> 00:15:47,156 Speaker 1: I mean everyone from Lauren Underwood to going into some 226 00:15:47,196 --> 00:15:50,636 Speaker 1: of the city races of the path like London Breed. 227 00:15:51,116 --> 00:15:54,636 Speaker 1: And then you have you know, johnnah Hayes and Georgia 228 00:15:54,756 --> 00:15:57,556 Speaker 1: dealing with criminal jos they you know, and these are 229 00:15:57,596 --> 00:16:01,836 Speaker 1: women that in many cases are not in majority black districts. 230 00:16:02,276 --> 00:16:05,436 Speaker 1: Typically the blueprint to get elected is to run in 231 00:16:05,436 --> 00:16:09,756 Speaker 1: a majority black place and you had numbers on your side. 232 00:16:09,796 --> 00:16:13,836 Speaker 1: You mobilize the churches, you mobilize your social organizations, you 233 00:16:13,876 --> 00:16:16,996 Speaker 1: get elected. Now what you're seeing in a lot of 234 00:16:17,036 --> 00:16:22,316 Speaker 1: cases are women able to use their social networks that 235 00:16:22,396 --> 00:16:27,876 Speaker 1: I mean their sorority affiliations, their their church membership and 236 00:16:28,036 --> 00:16:34,676 Speaker 1: run on actual issues healthcare, education, um criminal justice, and 237 00:16:35,076 --> 00:16:40,436 Speaker 1: young people in particular respond more to issues rather than race. 238 00:16:40,956 --> 00:16:45,556 Speaker 1: And so if you can strike a chord on an issue, 239 00:16:45,676 --> 00:16:49,836 Speaker 1: you can actually get a great cross section of the population. 240 00:16:49,916 --> 00:16:54,596 Speaker 1: And that's what's happening across the country. That's why, um 241 00:16:55,116 --> 00:16:59,996 Speaker 1: the you see the most diverse Congress in our history, 242 00:17:00,796 --> 00:17:05,916 Speaker 1: because they're actually speaking to issues and authentically addressing the 243 00:17:05,956 --> 00:17:09,436 Speaker 1: needs of people of color. That's tremendously optimistic. Fact, it's 244 00:17:09,436 --> 00:17:11,836 Speaker 1: one of the more optimistic things I've heard on the topic. 245 00:17:12,116 --> 00:17:14,676 Speaker 1: They're always downsides in life. So without you know, without 246 00:17:14,716 --> 00:17:16,916 Speaker 1: being a bummer, what are the downsides? What are the 247 00:17:17,036 --> 00:17:21,636 Speaker 1: risks that an African American candidate runs when she really 248 00:17:21,716 --> 00:17:27,116 Speaker 1: needs the median white voter and she's leading with issues 249 00:17:27,156 --> 00:17:29,916 Speaker 1: like racial inequality and voting rates, which, as you point out, 250 00:17:30,196 --> 00:17:33,916 Speaker 1: aren't very salient for most whites. Well, but this is 251 00:17:33,956 --> 00:17:37,876 Speaker 1: where I get frustrated when you hear the rhetoric of 252 00:17:38,796 --> 00:17:43,916 Speaker 1: the Democrats are not ready for these big ideas. But 253 00:17:44,036 --> 00:17:48,156 Speaker 1: in fact, when you're talking about healthcare, when you're talking 254 00:17:48,196 --> 00:17:52,116 Speaker 1: about a crime bill that was just passed, and recently 255 00:17:52,876 --> 00:17:57,916 Speaker 1: people have now an appetite for free college and universal 256 00:17:58,716 --> 00:18:05,236 Speaker 1: early child childhood education. Big ideas are mattering now. And 257 00:18:05,556 --> 00:18:09,236 Speaker 1: this goes across party and Alabama. Alabama has won of 258 00:18:09,276 --> 00:18:13,796 Speaker 1: the most robust preschool programs in the country. UM. And 259 00:18:13,836 --> 00:18:18,276 Speaker 1: so these issues, these big ideas, UM people are are 260 00:18:18,596 --> 00:18:22,836 Speaker 1: hearing them. And and it's okay to put forth issues 261 00:18:22,876 --> 00:18:26,756 Speaker 1: around race and justice because if one if you don't, 262 00:18:26,836 --> 00:18:30,396 Speaker 1: you're going to negate um black people from your base 263 00:18:30,436 --> 00:18:32,636 Speaker 1: and if you're a Democrat, there's no way you can 264 00:18:32,676 --> 00:18:36,476 Speaker 1: really win without um, black folk coming out, not just 265 00:18:36,516 --> 00:18:38,836 Speaker 1: in terms of numbers just and then just in terms 266 00:18:38,876 --> 00:18:43,836 Speaker 1: of mobilizing people in various states. UM. But if you're smart, um, 267 00:18:43,916 --> 00:18:47,436 Speaker 1: you can show that you can have a big idea 268 00:18:47,676 --> 00:18:52,116 Speaker 1: that that shows that we're all in this together. For instance, 269 00:18:52,116 --> 00:18:56,276 Speaker 1: the voting right stuff is it's this key to a 270 00:18:56,756 --> 00:18:59,916 Speaker 1: to a democracy. If you do not have a right 271 00:18:59,996 --> 00:19:03,796 Speaker 1: to vote, UM, then you're really not a person in 272 00:19:03,876 --> 00:19:08,716 Speaker 1: a democratic society you don't have UM, you're not a 273 00:19:08,756 --> 00:19:11,796 Speaker 1: member if you don't have a vote. So that's something 274 00:19:12,276 --> 00:19:15,916 Speaker 1: that I think Democrats should embase. But you rarely hear 275 00:19:16,036 --> 00:19:19,036 Speaker 1: things like universal voting. So look at looking forward to 276 00:19:19,076 --> 00:19:21,196 Speaker 1: twenty twenty. I mean, somebody is listening. Because if you 277 00:19:21,236 --> 00:19:24,276 Speaker 1: look at HR one, the you know, the bill that 278 00:19:25,156 --> 00:19:29,076 Speaker 1: the first bill adopted by introduced and then will eventually 279 00:19:29,116 --> 00:19:32,956 Speaker 1: be adopted by the Democratic House of Representatives. Not that 280 00:19:32,956 --> 00:19:35,156 Speaker 1: that's going to get signed by Donald Trump or necessarily 281 00:19:35,196 --> 00:19:38,316 Speaker 1: passed the Senate, but nevertheless an important symbolic document. It 282 00:19:38,356 --> 00:19:41,036 Speaker 1: actually does make voting rights pretty significant. It even goes 283 00:19:41,036 --> 00:19:44,476 Speaker 1: so far as to recommend that voting voting day be 284 00:19:44,556 --> 00:19:46,996 Speaker 1: made of federal holiday so that you can show up 285 00:19:47,356 --> 00:19:50,476 Speaker 1: and vote. So that does reflect somebody in the Democratic 286 00:19:50,476 --> 00:19:53,516 Speaker 1: Party is hearing your message and that and that would 287 00:19:53,636 --> 00:19:57,836 Speaker 1: not have come up if black women would not have 288 00:19:57,916 --> 00:20:01,636 Speaker 1: brought it up. And chiefly Stacy Abrams of Georgia, who 289 00:20:01,676 --> 00:20:05,516 Speaker 1: did not win the governorship there Um, she has taken 290 00:20:05,556 --> 00:20:10,876 Speaker 1: that on um, that's her mantle and Democrats need to 291 00:20:11,716 --> 00:20:14,076 Speaker 1: get on board and not just to use her as 292 00:20:14,076 --> 00:20:17,876 Speaker 1: a prop, because this is the danger that Andrew Gillum 293 00:20:17,876 --> 00:20:22,796 Speaker 1: and Stacy Abrams that they're near, they're near close wins 294 00:20:23,836 --> 00:20:27,156 Speaker 1: will turn into sort of a prop for the party 295 00:20:27,196 --> 00:20:31,996 Speaker 1: that they are talented as maybe a vice presidential candidate, 296 00:20:32,236 --> 00:20:35,756 Speaker 1: or they're they're shuffled around the country to say, look 297 00:20:35,756 --> 00:20:39,396 Speaker 1: who we have on our side. No, you need to 298 00:20:39,436 --> 00:20:41,716 Speaker 1: develop a platform. They need to be a part of 299 00:20:41,756 --> 00:20:45,876 Speaker 1: your platform. Moving into twenty twenty, what do you think 300 00:20:45,876 --> 00:20:49,516 Speaker 1: about this phenomenon of people who narrowly miss and then 301 00:20:49,676 --> 00:20:52,156 Speaker 1: become heroes of the party. I mean, Stacy Abrams is 302 00:20:52,196 --> 00:20:55,156 Speaker 1: one example, but Better A. Rourke is another. You know 303 00:20:55,196 --> 00:20:58,436 Speaker 1: he also his biggest accomplishment thus far is losing by 304 00:20:58,516 --> 00:21:00,916 Speaker 1: not that much to Ted Cruz, but he did lose. 305 00:21:01,156 --> 00:21:03,676 Speaker 1: Do you have an instinct about what that means for 306 00:21:03,716 --> 00:21:06,756 Speaker 1: the Democratic Party? And I'm a little bit skeptical because 307 00:21:07,756 --> 00:21:11,636 Speaker 1: I was fearful that a loss would um translate to 308 00:21:11,676 --> 00:21:14,596 Speaker 1: a lack of investment in the next Stacey Abrams or 309 00:21:14,756 --> 00:21:18,276 Speaker 1: in Stacey Abrams in the future. But UM, you know 310 00:21:18,556 --> 00:21:22,756 Speaker 1: I shouldn't be that cynical. UM. But UM, history has 311 00:21:22,756 --> 00:21:25,796 Speaker 1: shown me if if you don't win in your black 312 00:21:25,916 --> 00:21:28,396 Speaker 1: people tend to forget you very quick. But that doesn't 313 00:21:28,396 --> 00:21:32,636 Speaker 1: seem to be happening. At least that's that creates the 314 00:21:32,636 --> 00:21:34,836 Speaker 1: counter risk that she'll be used as a kind of 315 00:21:35,076 --> 00:21:37,236 Speaker 1: token or a tool. I see. I look at it 316 00:21:37,236 --> 00:21:40,316 Speaker 1: a little bit different than the Doug Jones race in 317 00:21:40,436 --> 00:21:44,716 Speaker 1: Alabama for the special election for the Senate was really telling. 318 00:21:44,956 --> 00:21:49,196 Speaker 1: There wasn't an investment from the DNC until late in 319 00:21:49,236 --> 00:21:54,876 Speaker 1: the game into the grass roots networks that primarily UM 320 00:21:55,036 --> 00:22:00,276 Speaker 1: were in the majority black cities of Birmingham, Montgomery, Immobile 321 00:22:00,756 --> 00:22:04,076 Speaker 1: and UM. It wasn't until they really poured money in 322 00:22:04,116 --> 00:22:08,356 Speaker 1: those places did you see, UM the kind of UM 323 00:22:08,676 --> 00:22:12,836 Speaker 1: voting turn out that that was needed. But in retrospect, 324 00:22:12,956 --> 00:22:15,396 Speaker 1: that could have been a black woman running for Senate 325 00:22:16,036 --> 00:22:21,956 Speaker 1: And will they take the risk in these places like Louisiana, 326 00:22:22,116 --> 00:22:26,916 Speaker 1: like Georgia, like Alabama, where there's a significant percentage of 327 00:22:27,876 --> 00:22:31,876 Speaker 1: black voters, one who can cross over And that's what 328 00:22:32,036 --> 00:22:36,236 Speaker 1: Stacey Abrams has showed. You can cross over and in 329 00:22:36,436 --> 00:22:39,716 Speaker 1: a conservative place. Andrew Gillam, I mean, Florida is a 330 00:22:39,716 --> 00:22:45,156 Speaker 1: conservative places. It's a mixed bag, it's very diverse, but 331 00:22:45,236 --> 00:22:50,156 Speaker 1: you can run unapologetically black. And actually when so the 332 00:22:50,636 --> 00:22:54,756 Speaker 1: challenge for the DNC is will they support a Gillam? 333 00:22:54,796 --> 00:22:58,556 Speaker 1: Will they support a Stacey Abrams a second go round? 334 00:22:59,636 --> 00:23:03,476 Speaker 1: Because I do think you don't want to waste the 335 00:23:03,556 --> 00:23:08,876 Speaker 1: infrastructure that they've built over time and not provide that 336 00:23:09,156 --> 00:23:11,996 Speaker 1: kind of investment again. But as you know, I mean, 337 00:23:12,836 --> 00:23:16,636 Speaker 1: when you have somebody like Joe Biden, it's almost I 338 00:23:16,636 --> 00:23:20,636 Speaker 1: mean in a way, you're going backwards to the safe 339 00:23:20,676 --> 00:23:22,636 Speaker 1: bet and I don't want Well, it's not clear that 340 00:23:22,636 --> 00:23:24,596 Speaker 1: it's so safe. I mean, I think that's exactly what 341 00:23:24,716 --> 00:23:26,956 Speaker 1: we're trying about. Is it safe? You know? And that 342 00:23:27,116 --> 00:23:29,396 Speaker 1: arry Hillary Clinton was safe and she was, you know, 343 00:23:29,476 --> 00:23:32,836 Speaker 1: running against a candidate who had higher negatives than any 344 00:23:32,876 --> 00:23:38,356 Speaker 1: candidate in anybody's memory. And it wasn't safe. That's exactly right. 345 00:23:38,476 --> 00:23:43,196 Speaker 1: But it's in our political dna that somehow a white 346 00:23:43,236 --> 00:23:47,636 Speaker 1: man is going to galvanize black voters won and the 347 00:23:47,676 --> 00:23:52,196 Speaker 1: rest of us because there's this inherent leadership in white men. 348 00:23:53,156 --> 00:23:56,236 Speaker 1: But I mean, that's that's the sort of naive charisma theory. 349 00:23:56,236 --> 00:23:59,436 Speaker 1: But there's also the kind of the cynical political science theory, 350 00:23:59,476 --> 00:24:02,476 Speaker 1: which is that to win the presidency you need swing voters. 351 00:24:03,156 --> 00:24:05,236 Speaker 1: That means you need people who are acceptable on both 352 00:24:05,236 --> 00:24:07,716 Speaker 1: sides of the aisle, and maybe that people imagine that's 353 00:24:07,716 --> 00:24:11,916 Speaker 1: a white man, and then you know, at the margins, right, 354 00:24:11,956 --> 00:24:14,236 Speaker 1: maybe the vice presidential candidate. Then you can think about 355 00:24:14,276 --> 00:24:17,636 Speaker 1: adding some component of diversity. I mean, I think that's 356 00:24:17,676 --> 00:24:21,236 Speaker 1: the old that really is the old way of thinking. Yeah, 357 00:24:21,276 --> 00:24:22,876 Speaker 1: and I and I this thing that's going to be 358 00:24:22,956 --> 00:24:28,076 Speaker 1: more difficult um moving forward as demographic shifts were becoming 359 00:24:28,156 --> 00:24:32,756 Speaker 1: a much more diverse country, and again you have people 360 00:24:32,796 --> 00:24:36,316 Speaker 1: of color who can win in places where they are 361 00:24:36,356 --> 00:24:39,396 Speaker 1: they are truly the minority. You don't need to be 362 00:24:39,476 --> 00:24:42,156 Speaker 1: a member of the majority class to win anymore. So, 363 00:24:42,316 --> 00:24:46,996 Speaker 1: and so that people now see more options and so 364 00:24:47,196 --> 00:24:51,596 Speaker 1: but if you don't present more options. You're you're just 365 00:24:52,236 --> 00:24:57,436 Speaker 1: throttling the enthusiasm for change that sparked a Barack Obama, 366 00:24:57,556 --> 00:25:02,116 Speaker 1: that sparked a Stacey Abram. People want something new, Andrew, 367 00:25:02,116 --> 00:25:04,756 Speaker 1: I'm gonna put it to you bluntly. Can a Democrat 368 00:25:05,356 --> 00:25:08,356 Speaker 1: regain the White House in twenty twenty without a person 369 00:25:08,396 --> 00:25:11,236 Speaker 1: of color on the tip? No? I don't think so. 370 00:25:12,396 --> 00:25:15,956 Speaker 1: I think we've seen over the at least with the 371 00:25:16,076 --> 00:25:20,996 Speaker 1: Hillary example, that fail miserably that at some point you 372 00:25:21,036 --> 00:25:25,276 Speaker 1: need to honor the people of your party. And the 373 00:25:25,396 --> 00:25:28,636 Speaker 1: Democrats are the diverse party, and so if if they 374 00:25:28,756 --> 00:25:32,196 Speaker 1: really want to honor the folks voting for them, they 375 00:25:32,916 --> 00:25:35,436 Speaker 1: must have a person of color. And I'm going to 376 00:25:35,556 --> 00:25:38,356 Speaker 1: go out there on a limus and to say you 377 00:25:38,476 --> 00:25:43,356 Speaker 1: better have a black woman just because the grassroots organizing 378 00:25:43,516 --> 00:25:49,876 Speaker 1: in cities, particularly in the South, the Midwest, the East 379 00:25:49,916 --> 00:25:54,516 Speaker 1: Coast black women that that's the infrastructure. I mean, we 380 00:25:54,556 --> 00:25:57,996 Speaker 1: can talk a little bit more about unions and other 381 00:25:59,156 --> 00:26:02,916 Speaker 1: things that make up that infrastructure, but black women get 382 00:26:02,956 --> 00:26:07,356 Speaker 1: out black votes and white voters. And so if you 383 00:26:07,476 --> 00:26:10,716 Speaker 1: do not, and this day and age, when when black 384 00:26:10,756 --> 00:26:18,556 Speaker 1: women are rising in every category education, um, income, um, professionalism, 385 00:26:18,636 --> 00:26:22,476 Speaker 1: all these different things. They're they're they're they're showing progress 386 00:26:22,516 --> 00:26:26,396 Speaker 1: out um and beyond their black male peers and and 387 00:26:26,596 --> 00:26:29,956 Speaker 1: even to their white male and white female peers to 388 00:26:29,956 --> 00:26:33,516 Speaker 1: to a great degree that that you got to honor 389 00:26:33,596 --> 00:26:37,076 Speaker 1: them at some point. And and I and I see 390 00:26:37,556 --> 00:26:41,876 Speaker 1: um that in policy that you know, yes, black women 391 00:26:41,956 --> 00:26:45,876 Speaker 1: still earn less than than than everyone else all the 392 00:26:45,916 --> 00:26:50,236 Speaker 1: other categories. And um, so there their black women are powerful, 393 00:26:50,276 --> 00:26:54,196 Speaker 1: they just lack protection in terms of policy. And at 394 00:26:54,196 --> 00:26:56,516 Speaker 1: some point, you the way you get protection is to 395 00:26:56,556 --> 00:26:59,356 Speaker 1: put people in office. And now they're at the highest office. 396 00:26:59,396 --> 00:27:01,036 Speaker 1: Now that you're out there on the now that you're 397 00:27:01,076 --> 00:27:03,076 Speaker 1: out there on the limb saying there has to be 398 00:27:03,116 --> 00:27:05,236 Speaker 1: an African American women on the ticket, let me try 399 00:27:05,276 --> 00:27:07,636 Speaker 1: and push you a little further out there. Right now, 400 00:27:08,236 --> 00:27:11,676 Speaker 1: the most significant African American woman in the race is 401 00:27:11,716 --> 00:27:15,116 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris. Does she have to be the nominee for 402 00:27:15,156 --> 00:27:18,596 Speaker 1: the Democrats to retake the presidency? I mean that would 403 00:27:18,596 --> 00:27:22,876 Speaker 1: be the strongest possible formulation. Cuts Kamala or bust. Yeah, 404 00:27:22,876 --> 00:27:27,436 Speaker 1: I see, I'm I'm I'm for a woman becoming the nominee, 405 00:27:27,436 --> 00:27:31,476 Speaker 1: a black woman becoming a nominations running right now absolutely, 406 00:27:31,756 --> 00:27:35,556 Speaker 1: you are saying Kamala bust. Yeah, I mean, I mean, 407 00:27:35,756 --> 00:27:38,476 Speaker 1: I will get it out there and say, Kamala for 408 00:27:38,596 --> 00:27:42,756 Speaker 1: the good of the country that we need a woman, 409 00:27:43,236 --> 00:27:47,916 Speaker 1: We really need a black woman who can galvanize, um, 410 00:27:48,316 --> 00:27:52,876 Speaker 1: multiple groups. Um, she has the credentials, but more importantly, 411 00:27:52,956 --> 00:27:57,156 Speaker 1: she represents what we want to see in the future. 412 00:27:57,276 --> 00:28:01,676 Speaker 1: We want to see someone who can truly represent America 413 00:28:01,876 --> 00:28:05,396 Speaker 1: in a much different way. I mean, of the history 414 00:28:05,436 --> 00:28:08,996 Speaker 1: of the presidents, I mean, only one has not been 415 00:28:09,316 --> 00:28:14,836 Speaker 1: a white male, only one. I mean that extraordinary, extraordinary. 416 00:28:15,036 --> 00:28:19,196 Speaker 1: So we need this as a country. We need to 417 00:28:19,236 --> 00:28:25,036 Speaker 1: see some one that represents a group that has been 418 00:28:25,116 --> 00:28:32,796 Speaker 1: striving over time. And remember and remember she's Howard graduate. Um, 419 00:28:33,156 --> 00:28:38,156 Speaker 1: she's a member of sorority. She she is tied. Intimately, 420 00:28:38,236 --> 00:28:41,436 Speaker 1: you cannot say she's not black. I mean she's a mixheritant. 421 00:28:41,516 --> 00:28:42,796 Speaker 1: So now that you brush that up, But now I'm 422 00:28:42,836 --> 00:28:44,276 Speaker 1: gonna ask you. Now, I'm going to ask you about it. 423 00:28:44,316 --> 00:28:47,356 Speaker 1: I mean, so I've heard this occasionally from younger, more 424 00:28:47,476 --> 00:28:51,236 Speaker 1: left people who say, look, you know Barack Obama was 425 00:28:51,316 --> 00:28:55,156 Speaker 1: one thing. You know, his father was Kenyan. He wasn't 426 00:28:55,156 --> 00:28:57,116 Speaker 1: an African American in the ordinary sense of the term. 427 00:28:57,116 --> 00:28:59,956 Speaker 1: He wasn't, as they put it, a descendant of slaves. 428 00:29:00,516 --> 00:29:03,436 Speaker 1: And I've heard some people say young black people saying, look, 429 00:29:03,996 --> 00:29:06,916 Speaker 1: we need to define an African American to mean a 430 00:29:06,996 --> 00:29:10,516 Speaker 1: descendant of slaves. And that may not be true of Kamalaharas, 431 00:29:10,556 --> 00:29:13,196 Speaker 1: although there may be some maybe that she's descentive slaves 432 00:29:13,276 --> 00:29:17,276 Speaker 1: from Jamaica, but not slaves in the United States. Yeah, 433 00:29:17,316 --> 00:29:20,156 Speaker 1: and I just don't believe you don't buy when I 434 00:29:20,196 --> 00:29:24,276 Speaker 1: don't buy. You know, these arguments of can you are 435 00:29:24,316 --> 00:29:28,556 Speaker 1: you black enough to represent? They they really don't go anywhere, 436 00:29:28,596 --> 00:29:30,676 Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, if you have 437 00:29:30,796 --> 00:29:36,956 Speaker 1: brown skin, you experience a lot of the same things, 438 00:29:36,956 --> 00:29:41,236 Speaker 1: regardless if you are an involuntary immigrant or if you're 439 00:29:41,236 --> 00:29:47,636 Speaker 1: a voluntary immigrant that you're economic socio economically, you can 440 00:29:47,836 --> 00:29:52,276 Speaker 1: look similar, not maybe exactly the same, but you definitely 441 00:29:52,316 --> 00:29:58,476 Speaker 1: share experiences with someone who of a descendant of the enslave. 442 00:29:58,556 --> 00:30:02,636 Speaker 1: So social identification with African Americans, which she's been doing 443 00:30:02,716 --> 00:30:04,676 Speaker 1: as far as we can tell her whole life, should 444 00:30:04,716 --> 00:30:06,476 Speaker 1: be more than enough then, And your view is that 445 00:30:06,476 --> 00:30:09,316 Speaker 1: the African American community across the board will say that's 446 00:30:09,356 --> 00:30:12,756 Speaker 1: more than black enough for us. Absolutely. My my only 447 00:30:12,796 --> 00:30:16,116 Speaker 1: fear of Kamala is that it is the same that 448 00:30:16,596 --> 00:30:21,236 Speaker 1: um that black black community um indicted Hillary with and 449 00:30:21,596 --> 00:30:24,756 Speaker 1: um Kamala with a prosecutor, a very tough prosecutor, a 450 00:30:24,916 --> 00:30:31,116 Speaker 1: very tough prose. Lots of people absolutely, So I think 451 00:30:31,156 --> 00:30:34,916 Speaker 1: that's the greatest fear. But I also think that white 452 00:30:35,236 --> 00:30:39,396 Speaker 1: more conservative folks will like that about Kamala, that she 453 00:30:39,516 --> 00:30:42,596 Speaker 1: can be quote unquote tough on crime, because that still 454 00:30:42,876 --> 00:30:45,916 Speaker 1: resonates with a lot of white folks that this idea 455 00:30:45,996 --> 00:30:51,076 Speaker 1: that you can punish black people really um um. White 456 00:30:51,116 --> 00:30:55,436 Speaker 1: people love that quality, that's the ability to punish black people. 457 00:30:55,476 --> 00:31:03,596 Speaker 1: So oh yeah, but you know, you see these prosecutors 458 00:31:04,196 --> 00:31:08,396 Speaker 1: um who in terms of if you're black and you're prosecutor, 459 00:31:09,276 --> 00:31:13,476 Speaker 1: it's a trade off that I think many black folks 460 00:31:13,956 --> 00:31:18,156 Speaker 1: can deal with because and this goes back to what 461 00:31:18,196 --> 00:31:20,716 Speaker 1: we said earlier, I still think that there's a lot 462 00:31:20,796 --> 00:31:24,556 Speaker 1: of black people who've internalized that we are at fault 463 00:31:24,796 --> 00:31:31,596 Speaker 1: for violence in communities, for poverty, and so it's not 464 00:31:32,276 --> 00:31:34,476 Speaker 1: We're not this monolithic group that says she might get 465 00:31:34,516 --> 00:31:37,116 Speaker 1: some African American votes precisely on those same grounds. You're 466 00:31:37,156 --> 00:31:40,756 Speaker 1: saying that is exactly. Let's talk about then her road, 467 00:31:40,876 --> 00:31:43,396 Speaker 1: and here I want to ask about the primary system 468 00:31:43,436 --> 00:31:46,836 Speaker 1: and whether it's whether it's fundamentally broken. I mean, here, 469 00:31:46,876 --> 00:31:49,196 Speaker 1: you you're making a very strong argument that we need 470 00:31:49,196 --> 00:31:51,396 Speaker 1: an African American woman at the top of the ticket. 471 00:31:51,916 --> 00:31:54,516 Speaker 1: And she's got to go through New Hampshire and Iowa 472 00:31:54,556 --> 00:31:58,996 Speaker 1: before any place else, not places with any substantial African 473 00:31:58,996 --> 00:32:01,676 Speaker 1: American population. Neither is a place even with a very 474 00:32:01,716 --> 00:32:05,156 Speaker 1: substantial urban population of any kind, black or white. So 475 00:32:05,876 --> 00:32:08,436 Speaker 1: what's up with that? Yeah, it's going to be tough 476 00:32:08,476 --> 00:32:10,436 Speaker 1: in the primary. She can make it to the general 477 00:32:11,076 --> 00:32:14,636 Speaker 1: um she I think she's going to be fine, But 478 00:32:15,436 --> 00:32:17,516 Speaker 1: being a prosecutor, I think it's actually going to hurt 479 00:32:17,516 --> 00:32:20,596 Speaker 1: her in the primary. I face the primary tend to 480 00:32:20,676 --> 00:32:26,396 Speaker 1: lean left, that exactly, And I actually think that she's 481 00:32:26,556 --> 00:32:30,556 Speaker 1: part of an establishment. Although she's not been around at 482 00:32:30,636 --> 00:32:34,316 Speaker 1: least she hasn't been in the public eye an incredibly 483 00:32:34,356 --> 00:32:37,796 Speaker 1: long period of time when compared to a mayor Pete 484 00:32:37,876 --> 00:32:41,396 Speaker 1: for instance, He's going to come off as novel. And 485 00:32:41,716 --> 00:32:46,436 Speaker 1: you know, between Obama and Trump, there's some what of 486 00:32:46,476 --> 00:32:51,156 Speaker 1: a trend of finding something's finding a celebrity type. I 487 00:32:51,276 --> 00:32:55,356 Speaker 1: knew something new. You're talking about Pete Pete Buddha Jedge, 488 00:32:55,716 --> 00:32:59,556 Speaker 1: the mayor of South Bend, openly gay speak, seven languages, 489 00:33:00,156 --> 00:33:05,156 Speaker 1: family from Malta of all places, unusual person. Yeah, you don't. 490 00:33:05,396 --> 00:33:09,076 Speaker 1: You don't find folks from Malta running for president every day, 491 00:33:09,476 --> 00:33:13,316 Speaker 1: and and so, I you know, I think that's she's 492 00:33:13,356 --> 00:33:16,596 Speaker 1: going to be up against that. But at the end 493 00:33:16,636 --> 00:33:19,556 Speaker 1: of the day, I think she is going to resonate 494 00:33:19,636 --> 00:33:23,516 Speaker 1: with a lot of folks because of many of the 495 00:33:23,636 --> 00:33:29,596 Speaker 1: hearings where she stood out and defending women's rights or 496 00:33:30,116 --> 00:33:33,956 Speaker 1: another issue. She's incredibly intense in the hearing room that 497 00:33:33,996 --> 00:33:35,676 Speaker 1: there's no question about it. And if she's if she 498 00:33:35,716 --> 00:33:38,676 Speaker 1: cleverly uses clips from that, maybe she can draw attention 499 00:33:38,716 --> 00:33:41,476 Speaker 1: to it. But I wonder if I can just push 500 00:33:41,476 --> 00:33:43,556 Speaker 1: you a little bit. I mean, in a world where 501 00:33:43,676 --> 00:33:46,996 Speaker 1: the Democratic Party needs people of color on the ticket, 502 00:33:47,716 --> 00:33:52,596 Speaker 1: is there something implicitly or explicitly racist about Iowa New 503 00:33:52,636 --> 00:33:57,356 Speaker 1: Hampshire being the early tests? Oh? Absolutely, I mean, you know, 504 00:33:57,436 --> 00:34:01,996 Speaker 1: I you know, we've always had to sort of perform 505 00:34:02,276 --> 00:34:07,156 Speaker 1: for white people in those places, and they're going to 506 00:34:07,236 --> 00:34:11,476 Speaker 1: have to perform. I mean, I I think that I mean, 507 00:34:11,516 --> 00:34:13,956 Speaker 1: maybe maybe the party needs it's early primaries to be 508 00:34:13,996 --> 00:34:16,436 Speaker 1: someplace that looks more like the demographics that the party 509 00:34:16,516 --> 00:34:18,876 Speaker 1: is looking for. I mean, do you do you see 510 00:34:18,876 --> 00:34:22,676 Speaker 1: that as something that's changeable over time? You know, I 511 00:34:22,716 --> 00:34:25,116 Speaker 1: haven't thought much about it, but I do I have 512 00:34:25,236 --> 00:34:28,596 Speaker 1: thought about you know why Iowa I always I mean, 513 00:34:28,636 --> 00:34:32,476 Speaker 1: it really cuts down the number of folks who consider running. 514 00:34:32,836 --> 00:34:36,076 Speaker 1: If you have to go through these very white states 515 00:34:36,956 --> 00:34:39,356 Speaker 1: early on, a lot of people just will not get 516 00:34:39,396 --> 00:34:42,956 Speaker 1: in the race, really because the resources that if they 517 00:34:42,996 --> 00:34:46,956 Speaker 1: get a slow start, they just don't because of their race, 518 00:34:47,316 --> 00:34:52,796 Speaker 1: don't have the resources and backing of other resource candidates, 519 00:34:52,796 --> 00:34:56,636 Speaker 1: and so it's a barrier, no question about it. So 520 00:34:56,716 --> 00:35:00,556 Speaker 1: let's talk about my friend Corey Booker because he's the 521 00:35:00,636 --> 00:35:05,236 Speaker 1: other prominent African American in the race right now. He's 522 00:35:05,236 --> 00:35:07,516 Speaker 1: also been in the public eye for longer even than 523 00:35:07,676 --> 00:35:12,276 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris Senator RUS because he started getting national publicity 524 00:35:12,556 --> 00:35:15,316 Speaker 1: when he started running to be mayor of Newark, New Jersey, 525 00:35:15,356 --> 00:35:17,316 Speaker 1: long before he won. The first time he ran and lost, 526 00:35:17,316 --> 00:35:20,396 Speaker 1: there was a documentary film made about his defeat. So 527 00:35:20,476 --> 00:35:22,836 Speaker 1: he you know, Corey was born to be famous, and 528 00:35:22,836 --> 00:35:27,916 Speaker 1: he's been famous pretty much his entire adult life. What's 529 00:35:28,116 --> 00:35:32,476 Speaker 1: your sense of why it has to be Kamala Harris 530 00:35:32,516 --> 00:35:35,636 Speaker 1: has to be a woman. Why couldn't Corey similarly motivate 531 00:35:36,356 --> 00:35:40,596 Speaker 1: an African American base, including African American women, towards whom 532 00:35:40,636 --> 00:35:46,036 Speaker 1: he's respectful and friendly and you know, otherwise positive. Corey 533 00:35:46,116 --> 00:35:50,396 Speaker 1: the viable candidate I think he is. I think he 534 00:35:50,636 --> 00:35:55,876 Speaker 1: certainly will be in the top tier of folks who 535 00:35:56,516 --> 00:36:00,356 Speaker 1: make it the the NOD. I do think he made 536 00:36:00,356 --> 00:36:03,796 Speaker 1: a critical mistake long and in the long run, I 537 00:36:03,836 --> 00:36:08,596 Speaker 1: think his siding with the kind of a reforms that 538 00:36:09,156 --> 00:36:12,516 Speaker 1: have been have proven to be a liability educational reforms. Yeah, 539 00:36:12,716 --> 00:36:16,596 Speaker 1: education reform, and he went all in. He strongly supported 540 00:36:16,676 --> 00:36:20,316 Speaker 1: school choice. That's right, and there's a lot of private 541 00:36:20,316 --> 00:36:23,996 Speaker 1: money to invest in the city schools. That's exactly right. 542 00:36:24,036 --> 00:36:27,956 Speaker 1: And so UM in this environment, if you are a 543 00:36:27,996 --> 00:36:32,756 Speaker 1: proponent that of anything that looks similar to what Betsy 544 00:36:32,836 --> 00:36:37,356 Speaker 1: Divas is a proponent of, UM, there your your competitors 545 00:36:37,356 --> 00:36:40,356 Speaker 1: are going to hold that against you. And and trust 546 00:36:40,396 --> 00:36:43,156 Speaker 1: me when I say the teacher unions are going to 547 00:36:43,356 --> 00:36:47,716 Speaker 1: are gonna nail them with that. UM. The black communities 548 00:36:47,756 --> 00:36:51,196 Speaker 1: in which UM AT reform hit hard and where black 549 00:36:51,276 --> 00:36:55,036 Speaker 1: teachers lost their jobs. You know, I was in New 550 00:36:55,156 --> 00:37:00,476 Speaker 1: Orleans UM during Hurricane Katrina, and the seventy five hundred 551 00:37:00,836 --> 00:37:05,396 Speaker 1: um UM teacher or employee school employees lost their job. Now, 552 00:37:05,516 --> 00:37:08,796 Speaker 1: it's not um. It hasn't been proven that that was 553 00:37:08,836 --> 00:37:12,956 Speaker 1: persful in any way or planned in a way to 554 00:37:13,396 --> 00:37:17,556 Speaker 1: open up the doors for a reform to come in. However, 555 00:37:17,996 --> 00:37:21,796 Speaker 1: when AT reform really solidified itself, the percentage of black 556 00:37:21,836 --> 00:37:25,716 Speaker 1: women teachers went significantly down. And that happened in Newark, 557 00:37:25,876 --> 00:37:29,276 Speaker 1: and that happened in DC. And so if you have 558 00:37:29,476 --> 00:37:32,756 Speaker 1: that that mark against you, it is going to be 559 00:37:32,916 --> 00:37:37,196 Speaker 1: hard to overcome in an environment where teachers are striking 560 00:37:37,276 --> 00:37:40,836 Speaker 1: in multiple states. So I think the viable candidate, but 561 00:37:41,236 --> 00:37:45,276 Speaker 1: I also think that AT Reform is a liability for 562 00:37:45,396 --> 00:37:47,676 Speaker 1: him that's going to be hard to overcome. You don't 563 00:37:47,676 --> 00:37:49,316 Speaker 1: think he could use that sort of the way you 564 00:37:49,316 --> 00:37:52,916 Speaker 1: suggested that Kamala Harris could use your prosecutorial background as 565 00:37:52,956 --> 00:37:56,956 Speaker 1: something to appeal to media and white voters. Now it's 566 00:37:57,036 --> 00:37:58,996 Speaker 1: it's it's just going to be hard because I also 567 00:37:59,116 --> 00:38:02,876 Speaker 1: think that Republicans have not been all that keen on choice. Yeah, 568 00:38:02,916 --> 00:38:06,556 Speaker 1: it seems like it's a policy whose moment was very 569 00:38:06,596 --> 00:38:09,036 Speaker 1: strongly present in the late nineties and early two thous 570 00:38:09,316 --> 00:38:11,636 Speaker 1: and is to some degree faded from being a central 571 00:38:11,876 --> 00:38:14,916 Speaker 1: popular position, with the exception as you mentioned of Betsy Devas. 572 00:38:15,196 --> 00:38:19,836 Speaker 1: That's right, that's exactly right. Um, fascinating. So, and I 573 00:38:19,876 --> 00:38:22,436 Speaker 1: should add I think you your background is precisely in 574 00:38:23,196 --> 00:38:25,596 Speaker 1: educational studies, is it not. I mean that was what 575 00:38:25,636 --> 00:38:27,916 Speaker 1: your first first training and specialization was in, so you 576 00:38:27,916 --> 00:38:30,276 Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, So you know, 577 00:38:30,316 --> 00:38:33,316 Speaker 1: in education, I learned a bunch of things about the 578 00:38:33,716 --> 00:38:38,596 Speaker 1: politics of it. I've I learned that, particularly in the 579 00:38:38,676 --> 00:38:42,036 Speaker 1: early two thousands, Democrats and Republicans were willing to work 580 00:38:42,076 --> 00:38:47,716 Speaker 1: together around education reforms. So I saw interest convergence first hand. 581 00:38:48,036 --> 00:38:54,716 Speaker 1: The problem is that Republicans were gained most from that alliance. 582 00:38:55,236 --> 00:38:59,636 Speaker 1: That the governors that got elected m were the off 583 00:38:59,716 --> 00:39:05,396 Speaker 1: of school choice and education reform were primarily Republicans. You 584 00:39:05,836 --> 00:39:11,436 Speaker 1: haven't seen Democrats rise up um um by or sort 585 00:39:11,436 --> 00:39:14,316 Speaker 1: of through this interest convergence. And that's where I think 586 00:39:14,476 --> 00:39:17,396 Speaker 1: Democrats really need to hold true too. They can hold 587 00:39:17,436 --> 00:39:21,236 Speaker 1: true to their principles. It's okay to say you're for 588 00:39:21,356 --> 00:39:25,236 Speaker 1: a government protecting the rights of people. It's okay to 589 00:39:25,356 --> 00:39:29,156 Speaker 1: say that we're for a local school board, it's okay 590 00:39:29,196 --> 00:39:32,276 Speaker 1: to say that we're going to support teachers, unions and 591 00:39:32,516 --> 00:39:37,436 Speaker 1: labor in general. That if you abandon those issues, that 592 00:39:37,596 --> 00:39:40,676 Speaker 1: it's going to be very tough for you. Um in 593 00:39:40,756 --> 00:39:44,996 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, that the differentiator is going to is going 594 00:39:45,036 --> 00:39:49,316 Speaker 1: to go back to are you truly a progressive Democrat? 595 00:39:49,836 --> 00:39:54,836 Speaker 1: And those who can really show those bona fides early, 596 00:39:54,916 --> 00:39:57,196 Speaker 1: they're going to really have a shot. That's why, you know, 597 00:39:57,556 --> 00:40:01,476 Speaker 1: a person we haven't mentioned will I think we'll always 598 00:40:01,516 --> 00:40:05,356 Speaker 1: have a shot, and that's Elizabeth Warren to a certain extent, 599 00:40:05,556 --> 00:40:07,836 Speaker 1: Bernie Well. I mean, they're going to be able to 600 00:40:07,916 --> 00:40:11,676 Speaker 1: raise money, They're going to be in the conversation because 601 00:40:11,876 --> 00:40:15,636 Speaker 1: they're they're showing their progressive bona fides. I just think 602 00:40:15,676 --> 00:40:20,156 Speaker 1: that that those two folks again, their time may have passed. 603 00:40:20,676 --> 00:40:23,636 Speaker 1: And I mean, and you know, not just in terms 604 00:40:23,676 --> 00:40:26,996 Speaker 1: of election, but just in terms of a white person running. 605 00:40:27,156 --> 00:40:28,836 Speaker 1: You know. Sure, So let me let me end then 606 00:40:28,916 --> 00:40:32,116 Speaker 1: our last question with it with a curveball. So you've 607 00:40:32,116 --> 00:40:35,196 Speaker 1: made I think an extremely compelling argument that if the 608 00:40:35,236 --> 00:40:37,676 Speaker 1: Democrats want to win, they need a person of color 609 00:40:37,836 --> 00:40:41,316 Speaker 1: to be the candidate. In twenty twenty, what if, through 610 00:40:41,356 --> 00:40:47,116 Speaker 1: some combination of the primary process and politics and money 611 00:40:47,116 --> 00:40:53,036 Speaker 1: in the party, that doesn't happen, and the Democrats managed 612 00:40:53,076 --> 00:40:56,196 Speaker 1: to run a ticket with two white people on it 613 00:40:56,476 --> 00:40:59,076 Speaker 1: the same way they did last time, and they lose. 614 00:40:59,836 --> 00:41:03,516 Speaker 1: Is there a moment for African Americans to say, look, 615 00:41:03,636 --> 00:41:06,556 Speaker 1: the party has taken us for granted for too long. 616 00:41:07,236 --> 00:41:09,876 Speaker 1: We need some alternative. We need to no longer be 617 00:41:09,956 --> 00:41:13,356 Speaker 1: treated by the party as people who will inevitably support 618 00:41:13,356 --> 00:41:16,756 Speaker 1: Democrats because the alternative is is Donald Trump. Is it possible, 619 00:41:16,796 --> 00:41:20,876 Speaker 1: in other words, that African Americans could essentially become captive 620 00:41:20,996 --> 00:41:26,636 Speaker 1: to the overlap in their interests with progressive politics. Oh? Absolutely, 621 00:41:26,676 --> 00:41:30,116 Speaker 1: And I would not be surprised if that actually played 622 00:41:30,156 --> 00:41:33,756 Speaker 1: itself out. That at some point blacks have to be 623 00:41:33,796 --> 00:41:41,036 Speaker 1: respected by gaining the nomination and support of white Americans. 624 00:41:41,236 --> 00:41:44,476 Speaker 1: I mean, we're so used to. But what's the alternative? Oh? 625 00:41:44,796 --> 00:41:47,396 Speaker 1: I mean, I do think that it may not look 626 00:41:47,436 --> 00:41:49,796 Speaker 1: like a third party, but it will show up. It's 627 00:41:49,836 --> 00:41:52,956 Speaker 1: sort of like a like a tea party movement or 628 00:41:54,156 --> 00:42:01,276 Speaker 1: some type of inside the Democratic Party, a fractured group 629 00:42:01,516 --> 00:42:06,476 Speaker 1: of legislators who are just uncompromising in their approach to 630 00:42:06,596 --> 00:42:10,756 Speaker 1: deliver certain goods because you know, without the Black Caucus, 631 00:42:10,916 --> 00:42:14,076 Speaker 1: you don't get at much of the legislation. So we 632 00:42:14,076 --> 00:42:18,196 Speaker 1: we can force the hand of people. And so I 633 00:42:18,276 --> 00:42:22,436 Speaker 1: do believe that at some point you have to put 634 00:42:22,476 --> 00:42:25,716 Speaker 1: that out there that we will no longer vote monolithically 635 00:42:25,996 --> 00:42:29,716 Speaker 1: for Democrats. UM. And we're because we are used to. 636 00:42:30,076 --> 00:42:33,036 Speaker 1: It is sad to say we're so used to seeing 637 00:42:33,076 --> 00:42:36,996 Speaker 1: two white, two white people on a ticket and and 638 00:42:37,116 --> 00:42:39,836 Speaker 1: feeling like, oh, we're gonna this is the lesser of 639 00:42:39,916 --> 00:42:42,396 Speaker 1: the two evils. We have to vote for them. No, 640 00:42:42,516 --> 00:42:46,196 Speaker 1: you don't, No, you don't. There's there are other party 641 00:42:46,236 --> 00:42:49,476 Speaker 1: candidates who are in the running. Um, there are third 642 00:42:49,476 --> 00:42:53,076 Speaker 1: party candidates. Um, you do not have to. And if 643 00:42:53,116 --> 00:42:55,676 Speaker 1: we do not get a black person, and if we don't, 644 00:42:55,836 --> 00:42:58,116 Speaker 1: if we don't get a black woman on that ticket, 645 00:42:58,756 --> 00:43:02,476 Speaker 1: you know, I you know, I would almost encourage folks 646 00:43:02,516 --> 00:43:06,956 Speaker 1: to um find an alternative. Wow. So thank you Andre 647 00:43:07,076 --> 00:43:11,156 Speaker 1: for a ray of optimism, a word of stern warning. 648 00:43:12,516 --> 00:43:15,036 Speaker 1: I'm very grateful to you for joining us here on 649 00:43:15,116 --> 00:43:25,276 Speaker 1: deep background. Thanks for being here. You're welcome in my 650 00:43:25,316 --> 00:43:28,036 Speaker 1: conversation with Andre, I wanted to know something about twenty 651 00:43:28,076 --> 00:43:31,956 Speaker 1: sixteen and something about twenty twenty. What I wanted to 652 00:43:31,956 --> 00:43:35,516 Speaker 1: know about twenty sixteen was did Hillary Clinton lose the 653 00:43:35,516 --> 00:43:38,316 Speaker 1: election in the end because of her failure to put 654 00:43:38,516 --> 00:43:41,276 Speaker 1: a person of color anywhere on the ticket and her 655 00:43:41,276 --> 00:43:46,676 Speaker 1: failure to energize African American female voters. After speaking to Andrea, 656 00:43:47,316 --> 00:43:49,316 Speaker 1: I think we're closer to being able to say that 657 00:43:49,356 --> 00:43:53,156 Speaker 1: the answer to that is yes. And Andrea also thinks, 658 00:43:53,476 --> 00:43:56,476 Speaker 1: as clearly as it's possible to think anything, that the 659 00:43:56,516 --> 00:44:00,276 Speaker 1: Democrats can't afford to make that mistake again. If he's right, 660 00:44:00,556 --> 00:44:03,276 Speaker 1: then twenty twenty is a year where the Democrats will 661 00:44:03,316 --> 00:44:05,156 Speaker 1: have to put a person of color on the ticket. 662 00:44:05,396 --> 00:44:07,236 Speaker 1: And if Andrea has his way at the top of 663 00:44:07,276 --> 00:44:10,556 Speaker 1: the ticket, and if he's really pacific, he thinks we 664 00:44:10,596 --> 00:44:13,596 Speaker 1: need Kamala Harris. We need an African American woman who's 665 00:44:13,596 --> 00:44:17,156 Speaker 1: capable of motivating African American women to turn out in numbers, 666 00:44:17,396 --> 00:44:20,476 Speaker 1: turn the election and defeat Donald Trump. We'll talk a 667 00:44:20,516 --> 00:44:22,836 Speaker 1: lot about the election in the coming months. We'll talk 668 00:44:22,876 --> 00:44:25,076 Speaker 1: about it, so we're blue in the face. But this 669 00:44:25,076 --> 00:44:28,236 Speaker 1: conversation with Andrea makes me think maybe most of that 670 00:44:28,276 --> 00:44:30,836 Speaker 1: talk isn't that useful. Maybe in the end, what we 671 00:44:30,876 --> 00:44:33,436 Speaker 1: need to know is who's on the ticket, and if 672 00:44:33,476 --> 00:44:35,996 Speaker 1: it's an African American woman, the Democrats will have a 673 00:44:35,996 --> 00:44:40,036 Speaker 1: good chance of winning. Deep Background is brought to you 674 00:44:40,076 --> 00:44:43,756 Speaker 1: by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia Ganecott, with engineering 675 00:44:43,756 --> 00:44:48,036 Speaker 1: by Jason Gambrell and Jason Rostkowski. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. 676 00:44:48,356 --> 00:44:51,436 Speaker 1: Our theme music is composed by Luis Gara. Special thanks 677 00:44:51,436 --> 00:44:55,036 Speaker 1: to the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, and Mia Lobel. 678 00:44:55,516 --> 00:44:57,796 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. You can follow me on Twitter at 679 00:44:57,796 --> 00:45:00,756 Speaker 1: Noah R Feldman. This is Deep Background.