1
00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,719
Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature, future production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host

2
00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:15,160
Speaker 1: of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology,

3
00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:16,920
Speaker 1: and today on the show Earth.

4
00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:18,440
Speaker 2: Is it a spaceship?

5
00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,959
Speaker 1: Is it a blue marble, a giant egg, a hologram

6
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,599
Speaker 1: projected by aliens? Or is it a living, breathing organism.

7
00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,760
Speaker 1: We like to talk about individual inhabitants of the planet Earth,

8
00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,960
Speaker 1: but what about the Earth itself? Can it function as

9
00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,920
Speaker 1: a living entity? Joining me to discuss this question is

10
00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,919
Speaker 1: writer for The New York Times magazine, The New Yorker, Harper's.

11
00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,239
Speaker 2: The Atlantic, National Geographic and.

12
00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,680
Speaker 1: Scientific, and American and author of the new book Becoming.

13
00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,519
Speaker 2: Earth, How our Planet Came to Life. Welcome back to

14
00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:51,640
Speaker 2: the show. Affairs Jaber, Welcome.

15
00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,560
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, pleasure to be here. Speak.

16
00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,959
Speaker 1: Last time we talked about birds, right, Yes.

17
00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,040
Speaker 3: The beautiful birds that inhabit our world.

18
00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:02,800
Speaker 2: I do love a good a good bird.

19
00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:04,920
Speaker 1: But I am so excited to have you back, especially

20
00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,679
Speaker 1: to talk about your new book and also to talk

21
00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:14,720
Speaker 1: about this concept of Earth, right being a living organism itself. Right,

22
00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,600
Speaker 1: So when we think about Earth, feels like, okay, this

23
00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,400
Speaker 1: is the substrate on which life is rocks and soil

24
00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,120
Speaker 1: and stuff. What's up with rocks and dirt? Is that

25
00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,560
Speaker 1: just dead inert stuff. That's just the basic building block

26
00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,880
Speaker 1: of an Earth. That is this inert, floating asteroid that

27
00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,600
Speaker 1: just so happens to have plants and animals on it.

28
00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,160
Speaker 3: Right exactly. So that's kind of been the predominant view

29
00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,440
Speaker 3: in Western science for a long time. So you know,

30
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,920
Speaker 3: mainstream science tends to segregate the animates from the inanimate and.

31
00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,000
Speaker 1: To view animal mineral, vegetable.

32
00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And you know, as you were saying, like,

33
00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:54,080
Speaker 3: we tend to view the planet as kind of just

34
00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,840
Speaker 3: the platform or the substrate for life, and life is

35
00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,920
Speaker 3: the separate surface phenomenon that is on Earth. Right There

36
00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,080
Speaker 3: countless books and textbooks and articles movies about life on Earth.

37
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,640
Speaker 3: But this alternative way of thinking, you know, says, but

38
00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,280
Speaker 3: what if the Earth system, you know, what if the

39
00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,360
Speaker 3: planet as a whole is also alive, is also a

40
00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:18,359
Speaker 3: form of life, not just a setting for life. And

41
00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,360
Speaker 3: you know, this is an idea that I guess we

42
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,520
Speaker 3: shouldnow we should acknowledge that this idea itself is ancient, right,

43
00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,160
Speaker 3: Like we find the basic concept of a living world

44
00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,520
Speaker 3: in religions and mythologies all across the globe going way

45
00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,320
Speaker 3: back in time, but in Western science it was popularized

46
00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,119
Speaker 3: most by the Gaia hypothesis, introduced in the nineteen seventies

47
00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,400
Speaker 3: by James Lovelock and Lynn Margolis, and they propose that

48
00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 3: together life in the larger planetary environment form a single,

49
00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:51,160
Speaker 3: self regulating living system. And it gets you know, it's

50
00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,679
Speaker 3: really interesting because I do think it's important to kind

51
00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:58,400
Speaker 3: of distinguish between Earth as a living entity versus other

52
00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,840
Speaker 3: forms of life, like say so or organisms, because I

53
00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,720
Speaker 3: do think historically there was this kind of conflation that's

54
00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:06,560
Speaker 3: to say that Earth is alive means that Earth is

55
00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,160
Speaker 3: an organism. But personally, I don't think that's quite right.

56
00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,680
Speaker 3: I think we should recognize life happening at multiple scales,

57
00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:17,280
Speaker 3: you know, sell, organism, population, ecosystem, planet, and it's not

58
00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,960
Speaker 3: identical in each of those manifestations, but it resembles itself

59
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,800
Speaker 3: very strongly. There are these really interesting echoes and rhymes

60
00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:24,799
Speaker 3: between each scale.

61
00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:26,440
Speaker 2: That's really interesting.

62
00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,520
Speaker 1: I like that distinction because when we think about life,

63
00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,200
Speaker 1: right it is I think a lot about how there's

64
00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:39,320
Speaker 1: so many patterns right that we see reproduced on different scales.

65
00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,720
Speaker 1: So like you said, say you look in an ant,

66
00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:43,760
Speaker 1: and you look inside the ant, you see some kind

67
00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 1: of cellular biology that's happening in the ant. It's immune

68
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,000
Speaker 1: system maybe working very much like an ant colony in

69
00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,400
Speaker 1: terms of defending the ant, this little tiny insect, and

70
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,560
Speaker 1: then you zoom out and you have this ant in

71
00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,120
Speaker 1: the ant itself is part of a call. And there's

72
00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,160
Speaker 1: a lot of research into this idea of like emergence

73
00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,480
Speaker 1: with an ant colony sort of ants acting as sort

74
00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:12,200
Speaker 1: of individual parts of a larger I guess uh life form,

75
00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,960
Speaker 1: which would be some kind of emergent intelligence coming out

76
00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,200
Speaker 1: of this ant colony acting as an organism or something like.

77
00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,400
Speaker 1: Say you have certain types of slime molds, right that

78
00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,880
Speaker 1: they have this individual life where they are these like

79
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,719
Speaker 1: little tiny unicellular organisms, and then they come together to

80
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,320
Speaker 1: form this, uh, this slug essentially that works and it

81
00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,800
Speaker 1: seems to be like this one organism, right, a slug,

82
00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:39,920
Speaker 1: and then it moves as if it's this one thing,

83
00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,479
Speaker 1: and then it kind of like sprouts off this like

84
00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:48,080
Speaker 1: weird little stem and little bulb on the end of

85
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,599
Speaker 1: it that produces these spores and then but then they're

86
00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 1: on their own again, right, So there's these kind of

87
00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,280
Speaker 1: interesting things where we see in nature this flexibility between

88
00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,240
Speaker 1: the idea of like one or organism right where it's

89
00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,680
Speaker 1: like a bird of fish, you or me, uh, and

90
00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,880
Speaker 1: then also things where it's like there's a weird in

91
00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,840
Speaker 1: between this of like sometimes it's like you have these

92
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,920
Speaker 1: individual parts that make up something that kind of acts

93
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:15,280
Speaker 1: as a one.

94
00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,120
Speaker 3: Life absolutely, you know, so all complex life forms are

95
00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,800
Speaker 3: by definition intricate systems that are made of networked components,

96
00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,080
Speaker 3: some of which are animate and some of which are inanimate.

97
00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,080
Speaker 3: You know, we by weight are mostly water. You know,

98
00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,440
Speaker 3: our skeletons are largely made of inert mineral, but we're

99
00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,479
Speaker 3: also suffused with living cells. Actually you're asking earlier, you

100
00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,359
Speaker 3: know about rock, like is rock alive? So one of

101
00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,279
Speaker 3: Lovelock's favorite metaphors for Gaya for this concept of a

102
00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,400
Speaker 3: living planet was a giant redwood tree. So by you know,

103
00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,240
Speaker 3: by volume, by mass, most of any mature tree is

104
00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,560
Speaker 3: actually just dead tissue, and it's just laced and ringed

105
00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,080
Speaker 3: with thin strips of living cells here and there. But

106
00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,120
Speaker 3: nobody argues that a tree as a whole is not alive.

107
00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,280
Speaker 3: You know, we all recognize a tree as alive, and

108
00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,600
Speaker 3: you're saying it's similar for Earth. You know that the

109
00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,480
Speaker 3: majority of the planet is inanimate to rock, but it

110
00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,800
Speaker 3: has this incredible, flowering skin of life that sustains a

111
00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:14,520
Speaker 3: much larger, glowing, global being. And what's what's the interesting

112
00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,640
Speaker 3: distinction though, is that you know what we call organisms

113
00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,040
Speaker 3: are you know, they're members of species, and species are

114
00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,800
Speaker 3: shaped by the process of natural selection and you know,

115
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,760
Speaker 3: and it's sort of standard evolution as we understand it.

116
00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,080
Speaker 3: And that's where Earth, something at the scale of a planet,

117
00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,720
Speaker 3: is different because it is not a member of the species.

118
00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,000
Speaker 3: It is not genetically reproducing with a single coherent genome,

119
00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,960
Speaker 3: it's not competing with other planets, you know, for resources

120
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,479
Speaker 3: and such that, but it is inexorably bound up with

121
00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,000
Speaker 3: the evolution of the organisms that comprise it. Right, So,

122
00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,360
Speaker 3: once you understand that life, you know, is part of

123
00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,600
Speaker 3: what Earth is. You know that life is this extension

124
00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,120
Speaker 3: of the planet. So Earth is an inevitably composed and

125
00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,720
Speaker 3: part of life. And then life loops back to dramatically

126
00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,840
Speaker 3: transformed a planetary environment. Then you see how Earth is

127
00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,359
Speaker 3: bound up with the evolution of its smaller constituent life forms.

128
00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,240
Speaker 3: So it is. It is evolving in a sense, it's

129
00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,720
Speaker 3: just not the standard evolution by natural selection that we

130
00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:13,840
Speaker 3: most typically.

131
00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,000
Speaker 1: Recognize, kind of a bottom up evolution where it's like

132
00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:22,360
Speaker 1: within it's sort of like the organisms and life and

133
00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,680
Speaker 1: individual components in Earth are driven by evolutionary pressures and

134
00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,160
Speaker 1: then those kind of go up in terms of like

135
00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:30,559
Speaker 1: shaping the earth.

136
00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,000
Speaker 2: Can you what are some examples of that though?

137
00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,000
Speaker 1: Like what does that mean for say, like, you know,

138
00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,040
Speaker 1: I'm here, right, I can I can dig a hole

139
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,640
Speaker 1: in the earth there, I've shaped it. But big changes

140
00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,280
Speaker 1: in the Earth, Like how do we see that happening

141
00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:49,280
Speaker 1: in terms of organic life plants, animals actually shaping and

142
00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:50,160
Speaker 1: changing the earth?

143
00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,320
Speaker 3: Right, So perhaps, you know, the single biggest transformation the

144
00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,960
Speaker 3: Earth has undergone was a life powered revolution, and that

145
00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,720
Speaker 3: was this long oxygenation of Earth's atmosphere. You know, initially

146
00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,080
Speaker 3: more than three four billion years ago, our atmosphere had

147
00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,960
Speaker 3: essentially no oxygen in it whatsoever. It was very carbon

148
00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:15,000
Speaker 3: and methane rich. It was probably a hazy orange smog, like,

149
00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,600
Speaker 3: you know, a quality to it, possibly like the moon

150
00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:20,680
Speaker 3: Titan around Saturn, or.

151
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 1: Like southern California and yeah, season yeah, or the unfortunate

152
00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,400
Speaker 1: effects of some of the you know wildfires that many

153
00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,080
Speaker 1: of us but it has been experiencing as well.

154
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,960
Speaker 3: But yeah, those are those are yeah, kind of eerie

155
00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,320
Speaker 3: glimpses into ancient Earth in some ways. But you know,

156
00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,160
Speaker 3: two point five billion years ago, maybe a little bit earlier,

157
00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:45,480
Speaker 3: these ocean plankton called cyanobacteria, they invented photosynthesis, and so

158
00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,680
Speaker 3: they started pouring oxygen into the ocean and atmosphere, and

159
00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,640
Speaker 3: very gradually over time, and then later with algae land plants,

160
00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,400
Speaker 3: they raised the level of oxygen in the atmosphere from

161
00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:01,000
Speaker 3: essentially nothing to twenty thirty thirty five percent. Today it's

162
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,040
Speaker 3: about twenty one percent oxygen in the atmosphere in the carboniferous.

163
00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,800
Speaker 3: When we had massive dragonflies, the sizes of pigeons, and

164
00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,840
Speaker 3: the raging wildfires, it was more like thirty thirty five

165
00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,439
Speaker 3: percent something like that. So it has fluctuated over time,

166
00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,520
Speaker 3: and oxidating the atmosphere changed everything. Now you have a

167
00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,280
Speaker 3: planet with a completely different chemistry. The sky shifted to

168
00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,440
Speaker 3: the blue part of the spectrum. Now fire is possible

169
00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,240
Speaker 3: where it was not possible before, and without fire, human

170
00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,560
Speaker 3: evolution would not have been what it was, So there

171
00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:36,040
Speaker 3: are these amazing cascades of ecological changes, you know, through

172
00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,600
Speaker 3: deep evolutionary time. And it all began with these single

173
00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,360
Speaker 3: celled microbes in the ocean just doing their thing, photosynthesizing,

174
00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,520
Speaker 3: and they ended up completely and permanently transforming the entire planet.

175
00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,520
Speaker 1: Do you know, like, if I'm an alien observing Earth

176
00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,880
Speaker 1: during this change, like from the outside, does like that

177
00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,200
Speaker 1: change in the atmosphere? Is that visually evident for me

178
00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,000
Speaker 1: as like an alien in my little spaceship.

179
00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a fantastic question because that was James Lovelock's

180
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,080
Speaker 3: initial insights when NASA asked him to help them find

181
00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,920
Speaker 3: new ways of discovering alien life, and he was working

182
00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,880
Speaker 3: at JPL in California, and he realized, you don't even

183
00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,480
Speaker 3: have to go to another planet to detect if it

184
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,160
Speaker 3: has life on it. If there is life there, it

185
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,320
Speaker 3: will inevitably start changing the structure and chemistry of that planet.

186
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,520
Speaker 3: And life here on Earth has pushed our atmosphere into

187
00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,360
Speaker 3: chemical dysquilibrium. So just analyze the chemistry of the planet,

188
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,120
Speaker 3: you know, the atmosphere chemistry of the planet from afar,

189
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,920
Speaker 3: if it's a disequilibrium, the way that Earth is that's

190
00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,160
Speaker 3: a very strong signal that there is life there. In contrast,

191
00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:44,120
Speaker 3: our planetary siblings, Mars and Venus, their atmospheres are in

192
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,319
Speaker 3: chemical equilibrium. You know, we do not think there's any

193
00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,080
Speaker 3: life there as far as we know. Maybe Mars had

194
00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,959
Speaker 3: some microbial life at some point but over time died.

195
00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,959
Speaker 3: And that is what our atmosphere would look like if

196
00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,760
Speaker 3: it was dictated purely by physics and not by biology.

197
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,040
Speaker 1: Right, because it's the idea is that you have organisms

198
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,880
Speaker 1: on Earth taking energy like from the Sun and then

199
00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,160
Speaker 1: having some kind of byproduct that is pushing that equilibrium

200
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,360
Speaker 1: off balance. Otherwise you would have some kind of in

201
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,520
Speaker 1: terms of the atmosphere, you'd have some kind of chemical

202
00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:22,080
Speaker 1: equilibrium that's just solely determined by the physics of the

203
00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,000
Speaker 1: planet exactly.

204
00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,200
Speaker 3: And I think that's a great way to think about it, is,

205
00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,120
Speaker 3: you know, the ubiquity of life across Earth's surface is

206
00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,640
Speaker 3: really it really is like this global entity or I've

207
00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,520
Speaker 3: come to think of it as a planetary anatomy in physiology.

208
00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,880
Speaker 3: You know, all of these cells and living tissues spread

209
00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,559
Speaker 3: across the planet is like Earth's anatomy and physiology and

210
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,560
Speaker 3: metabolism their collective behaviors, and so you know, scientists often

211
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,559
Speaker 3: think about the total photosynthetic productivity of the planet, not

212
00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:52,600
Speaker 3: just of a single tree or even a forest, but

213
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,720
Speaker 3: the way that all this photosynthetic life is taking an

214
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,920
Speaker 3: energy from the Sun, transforming that energy, storing that energy.

215
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,640
Speaker 3: That is the chemical and energetic foundation of all of

216
00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,720
Speaker 3: the other life. Lynn Marglus like to say that, you know,

217
00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:11,240
Speaker 3: the life we call Earth is this sun power emergent phenomenon, right.

218
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,040
Speaker 3: It is all dependent on the energy that we are

219
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,800
Speaker 3: bathed in from the Sun and it empowers these incredibly

220
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,960
Speaker 3: complex emergent phenomena that become a planetary scale force.

221
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,720
Speaker 1: And in terms of the Earth, it's an interesting way

222
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,000
Speaker 1: to think of it because the Earth is not so

223
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,640
Speaker 1: like the planet itself right like it, it doesn't necessarily

224
00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,920
Speaker 1: have a like. As a human life form, I have

225
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:42,520
Speaker 1: a motivation which is staying alive and being happy, right essentially,

226
00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,560
Speaker 1: which is I think more or less the motivation of

227
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,520
Speaker 1: most life forms on Earth, even if it's like technically

228
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,319
Speaker 1: it's like you want to reproduce and you want to

229
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,760
Speaker 1: be fit and stuff, But the actual emotional thing from

230
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:56,680
Speaker 1: me to like a mouse is like, I want to

231
00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,800
Speaker 1: be alive and happy. But with a planet, there's not

232
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:04,840
Speaker 1: really a motivation, right, Like, like we were talking about,

233
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,599
Speaker 1: there's no selective pressures on the planet itself coming from outside. Obviously,

234
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:15,719
Speaker 1: there are threats coming from outside, say like you know, asteroids, meteors,

235
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,720
Speaker 1: but like that's not something that the planet is particularly

236
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,240
Speaker 1: concerned with. But it's really all of these things that

237
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,439
Speaker 1: we're talking about in terms of things being good or bad,

238
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,440
Speaker 1: or or the transformations of the planet. Really all it

239
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,560
Speaker 1: does is affect the individual components of it. So unlike

240
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,160
Speaker 1: a human body, where it's like I'm acutely aware of

241
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,760
Speaker 1: how my cells are functioning and I benefit from that

242
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,320
Speaker 1: as the larger organism, it's kind of the inverse with

243
00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,160
Speaker 1: the planet because it's like the planet may be changing

244
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,800
Speaker 1: and being kind of alive as a you know, this

245
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,400
Speaker 1: giant unit, but the ones observing it and the ones

246
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,320
Speaker 1: you know benefiting from it are the individual units of

247
00:13:58,760 --> 00:13:59,480
Speaker 1: like the planet.

248
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's this, you know. This question of goal and

249
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,080
Speaker 3: purpose and motivation in biology has been a long debated subject,

250
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,880
Speaker 3: and it's interesting actually that recently we see more and

251
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:17,120
Speaker 3: more scientists and science writers kind of requestioning this historical

252
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,600
Speaker 3: resistance or reluctance to speak of any kind of goals

253
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,120
Speaker 3: or purpose in biology, you know, and kind of rethinking

254
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,000
Speaker 3: that a bit, but you're you're absolutely right that, you know,

255
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,240
Speaker 3: this problem of teleology of kind of goal driven processes

256
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,080
Speaker 3: was a huge sticking point when the Guy hypothesis first

257
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,320
Speaker 3: came out, and one of the major reasons that most

258
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,960
Speaker 3: evolution and biologists really did not like this idea of

259
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,280
Speaker 3: Earth as a giant living thing. But another way to

260
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,240
Speaker 3: think about it is that all complex systems, even if

261
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,560
Speaker 3: they are not competing and reproducing the way that you know,

262
00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:53,440
Speaker 3: Darwinian entities do, they are still competing against the basic

263
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,600
Speaker 3: forces of time and entropy. You know, like the universe

264
00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,360
Speaker 3: is always moving towards maximum entropy, where everything's just going

265
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,480
Speaker 3: to fall upon and dissolve into a homogeneous mush. But

266
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:07,040
Speaker 3: some systems find ways to persist longer than others, even

267
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,160
Speaker 3: if they're not reproducing and you know, carrying on a

268
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:14,720
Speaker 3: genetic legacy. They're persisting through time, like the Amazon rainforest.

269
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,000
Speaker 3: This astonished me. The Amazon rainforest has endured for more

270
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:23,080
Speaker 3: than fifty million years, retaining its essential ecological characteristics and

271
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,200
Speaker 3: fundamental structural features that whole time. Yeah, so how do

272
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,760
Speaker 3: we account for that kind of you know, a large

273
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,640
Speaker 3: scale longevity that's happening at the scale of an ecosystem

274
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,480
Speaker 3: that spans a continent. That's incredible, and that's very close

275
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,720
Speaker 3: to what we see with the Earth system as a whole,

276
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,640
Speaker 3: having endured for four point five billion years. I mean,

277
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,280
Speaker 3: that's so much time for something catastrophic to happen that

278
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,520
Speaker 3: completely annihilates all life and truly makes Earth a dead planet.

279
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,680
Speaker 3: And yet that hasn't happened yet. And not only has

280
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:56,040
Speaker 3: Earth survived these repeated catastrophes, it's arguably become more complex,

281
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,240
Speaker 3: more biodiverse over time. And I think, you know, some

282
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,720
Speaker 3: people might say it's luck, you know, that life's just

283
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,160
Speaker 3: hung on all this time. But I think part of

284
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,600
Speaker 3: the answer is what we were talking about before. It's

285
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:12,320
Speaker 3: how how the planetary system is inevitably intertwined with the

286
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,520
Speaker 3: evolution and survival of its constituent life forms. The way

287
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,040
Speaker 3: I've come to think of it, you know, is living

288
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,360
Speaker 3: systems find ways to endure. They do something to keep

289
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,880
Speaker 3: themselves around that seems to be their defining quality. So

290
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,040
Speaker 3: wherever life emerges, it starts to do that or to

291
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,560
Speaker 3: influence the larger environment. In a similar way, when you

292
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,840
Speaker 3: have life bound up in these larger environments, they often,

293
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,000
Speaker 3: you know, environment and life tend to converge upon processes

294
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,920
Speaker 3: and relationships and rhythms that ensure mutual persistence over long

295
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,600
Speaker 3: periods of time. I think that's the kind of thing

296
00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:46,680
Speaker 3: that we're seeing with the Earth systems. So you're right,

297
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,080
Speaker 3: it's not the kind of homeostasis that has been shaped

298
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,080
Speaker 3: by natural selection the way we see organisms and species.

299
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,920
Speaker 3: But because Earth is tied up with those organisms and species,

300
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,320
Speaker 3: we still see echoes of you know, of these emergent effects,

301
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,800
Speaker 3: you know, arising at the planetary scale. And yeah, it's

302
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:09,919
Speaker 3: just it's really incredible to think about that that, you know,

303
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,840
Speaker 3: when life takes hold in the right way on a planet,

304
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,679
Speaker 3: it can push it into this new complex state that

305
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:20,160
Speaker 3: appears to have an amazing tenacity and resilience. Of course,

306
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,119
Speaker 3: the huge caveat is that we're always working with an

307
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,280
Speaker 3: end of one with Earth because it's the only living

308
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,879
Speaker 3: planet we've ever discovered, and we can't directly compare it

309
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,240
Speaker 3: to any other living planets.

310
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's plenty of plenty of problems in

311
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,160
Speaker 1: terms of sample size in biology. I mean, yeah, even

312
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,000
Speaker 1: if you go smaller, say like with whales, impossibly, but

313
00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,600
Speaker 1: you know it is it is very interesting, I wonder, like,

314
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:50,679
Speaker 1: so when we have this idea of life being integrated

315
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,239
Speaker 1: in this way where it is self sustaining, look at

316
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,639
Speaker 1: a very simple one, right like, predator prey relationship. We

317
00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,119
Speaker 1: think of like sometimes it's this idea of like, well,

318
00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,840
Speaker 1: the predator is taking advantage of the prey, right, exploiting

319
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,000
Speaker 1: the prey. But actually, what's happening on and that may

320
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,280
Speaker 1: be happening within a single lifetime, but when you zoom

321
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,919
Speaker 1: out on to a scale of millions of years, the

322
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:18,159
Speaker 1: predators actually increasing the chance that this prey species, or

323
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,080
Speaker 1: even the species that came from that prey species. Right,

324
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,240
Speaker 1: the predation itself is life sustaining because it is forcing

325
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:32,160
Speaker 1: these evolutionary changes in the prey species to become more fit,

326
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,040
Speaker 1: more flexible, have more genetic diversity, branch off into different

327
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,560
Speaker 1: species so that when you do have a shock, they're

328
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,760
Speaker 1: more likely to survive. And of course the opposite, like,

329
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,679
Speaker 1: the same thing is true for predator species, right like,

330
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 1: they are also shaped by the competition with the prey,

331
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,520
Speaker 1: right like, they face death as well if they are

332
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,160
Speaker 1: out competed by the prey in terms of starvation, being

333
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,959
Speaker 1: unable to find newttrition, so they undergo the same kind

334
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,240
Speaker 1: of pressures. And then, of course, like there's all sorts

335
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:09,280
Speaker 1: of like much more complicated relationships between animals than just

336
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:10,119
Speaker 1: predator prey.

337
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:11,840
Speaker 2: You have parasites, you have.

338
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,600
Speaker 1: Pathogens, you have mutualistic you have competitive and all of

339
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:22,080
Speaker 1: these kinds of relationships seem to, like you said, because

340
00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 1: there's pressures, and because there is this pushing for biodiversity,

341
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 1: for genetic diversity, for different types of evolutionary strategies, it

342
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,879
Speaker 1: does make it much more likely that if you have

343
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:41,439
Speaker 1: a shock, right like a meteor strike, life can go on,

344
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,000
Speaker 1: whereas if you had it much more sort of homeostasis

345
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,280
Speaker 1: in terms of there's no change, there's no competition, there's

346
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,320
Speaker 1: no sort of evolutionary pressures than if you only have

347
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 1: a few types of animals going around and they endure

348
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,840
Speaker 1: this shock, or not just animals but plants or microorganisms,

349
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,760
Speaker 1: and then you have a shock much less likely to

350
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:03,399
Speaker 1: be able to endure it.

351
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:04,880
Speaker 2: So I find that very interesting.

352
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:06,920
Speaker 3: You raise a really good point, because I think we're

353
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 3: seeing a renewed emphasis on this concept of co evolution,

354
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,959
Speaker 3: you know, and sort of recognizing and appreciating the reciprocity

355
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,320
Speaker 3: that exists in evolutionary processes. So the classic example is

356
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,520
Speaker 3: plants and pollinators, right that they have shaped each other.

357
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 3: You have insects and other animals, you know, evolving adaptations

358
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,479
Speaker 3: that help them gain floral sustenance. And then you have

359
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,400
Speaker 3: flowering plants evolving all of these bright colors and invisible

360
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 3: patterns that we can't see that are attracting pollinators. They're

361
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,600
Speaker 3: shaping each other. But life and environment do the same thing.

362
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,639
Speaker 3: That's what's kind of come into the forefront now is

363
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 3: that this coevolutionary process happens between organisms and their environments

364
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 3: as well. That organisms are continually changing their environments at

365
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 3: the same time that they are adapting to them, and

366
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,720
Speaker 3: then that can have astonishing repercussions, you know, kind of

367
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,960
Speaker 3: ripple effects through evolutionary time because once you know, organisms

368
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,480
Speaker 3: have changed the environment in which they're descending descendants are evolving,

369
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 3: they've changed the future revolution of their own species. So

370
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,679
Speaker 3: and like we've talked about this before with birds and bees,

371
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 3: they're becoming agents, they're becoming active participants in their own evolution.

372
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a kind of self feedback loop, which

373
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,400
Speaker 1: is really interesting. What's like an interesting example of that, say,

374
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 1: like a species really shaping the environment and then their

375
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:27,040
Speaker 1: future progeny, right like adapting to that new environment that

376
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 1: they have shaped.

377
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 3: So another another fascinating example is the so called Cambrian

378
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 3: substrate revolution, which happened maybe somewhere between five hundred and

379
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,399
Speaker 3: four hundred million years ago. So back then, you know,

380
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 3: much of the sea floor was covered by this thick

381
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,199
Speaker 3: microbial mat. There's a very anoxic environment beneath it, and

382
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 3: there were these weird slug like organisms that we don't

383
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 3: even know how to classify, you know, oozing along. And

384
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 3: then the Cambrian explosion happened, and you have these incredible

385
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,919
Speaker 3: diversity of giant shrimps and beetle like animals with teeth

386
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 3: and jaws and spine all their yeah, yeah, exactly, all

387
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 3: those like the hallucgety and like the truly trippy creatures

388
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 3: of the Cabrian And they started tearing up the microbial

389
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 3: mat and you know, the scientists call it bioturbation, and

390
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 3: they compare it to when the settlers came in and

391
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 3: tore up the prairies, you know, for agriculture in North America,

392
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 3: So they massively disrupted this initial ancient ocean ecosystem. But

393
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 3: in doing so, they allowed oxygen, water, and nutrients to

394
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 3: penetrate the seafloor and the way they could not before,

395
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 3: and they created all these new niches that you know,

396
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,719
Speaker 3: new species can now evolve to occupy. So in the

397
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 3: long term, this animal powered revolution dramatically diversified the ocean ecosystem.

398
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 3: It made it much more habitable overall. And now these

399
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 3: microbial mats exist only in a few rare places where

400
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,879
Speaker 3: there's very low oxygen, and most of the seafloor you know,

401
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 3: is much more widely hapbited than it used to be,

402
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 3: so that you know, it's a pretty powerful example of

403
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 3: life coming in transforming the structure the geology of the planet,

404
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 3: and then that loops back to allow new evolutionary possibilities.

405
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's very interesting.

406
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that sometimes we think of destruction

407
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,640
Speaker 1: as a negative thing, right, Like you have a species

408
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:18,719
Speaker 1: come in and it destroys the sort of like existing

409
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: peace and tranquility of what's going on there, and then

410
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 1: it's seemed like, oh, you know, they're destroying like sort

411
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: of like the example you have in terms of like

412
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: maybe like settlers coming in and like, you know, devastating

413
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: an ecosystem. But in terms of like that long view

414
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 1: of evolutionary history, it's not necessarily a bad thing. I

415
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 1: think the reason why it feels bad is that when

416
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: we're looking in the short term, especially in terms of humans,

417
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 1: because we are uniquely good at doing big things in

418
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 1: short periods of time, which is you know, actually not

419
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: potentially good, right, Like, you know, there are things like

420
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 1: it's I'm not saying that it doesn't matter what humans do,

421
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: life on Earth will inevitably survive no matter what.

422
00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: I think.

423
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 1: There's a good chance it will. But you know, there

424
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 1: are definite things that we can do to sabotage the

425
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: Earth's health. In the long term, there is, at least

426
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 1: in terms of this very very long perspective of evolution,

427
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot of positive things that come from death.

428
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I like that you

429
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: mentioned in your book that is really fun to me

430
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: is that like so much of the Earth is like skeletons,

431
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: like we are living. I mean, maybe it sounds a

432
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: little bit dark or metal, whatever your perspective is, but

433
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 1: like we are living on so many skeletons of dead

434
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 1: things that becomes structures for us to live on or

435
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: to inhabit, or to for things to grow on. So

436
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: can you talk about, like, how much of the earth

437
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: do you think is like skeletons of dead things that

438
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:53,719
Speaker 1: we are now like living on?

439
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah, you know, one of the moments that really

440
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 3: transform my thinking that I'll never forget is when I

441
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 3: love and that the White Cliffs of Dover, this massive

442
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 3: chalk formation, is composed, you know, almost entirely of the

443
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 3: remains of ancient ocean creatures, and mostly single celled ocean creatures.

444
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 3: So if you take a little piece of chalk from

445
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 3: the White Cliffs of Dover and you look at it

446
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 3: under a powerful microscope, you see these really intricate, little

447
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 3: like bone like pegs all packed together like the stones

448
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 3: in an archway. Those are the degraded remains of the

449
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 3: intricate exoskeletons of plankton called cocolythophores, you know, that build

450
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: these chalky, beautiful casings for themselves, and they live there.

451
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,239
Speaker 3: You know, sixty five million years ago they died, they

452
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 3: sank to the seafloor, they collected in sediments and over time,

453
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 3: those sediments compacted and turned into stone that was subducted,

454
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 3: you know, into the Earth's crustin nantle and recycled. And

455
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 3: then you know, in this particular case, shrinking sea levels exposed,

456
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 3: you know, this massive accumulation of petrified set and that

457
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 3: is the White Cliffs of Dover. And in fact, the

458
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 3: majority of limestone formations around the planet are made of

459
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 3: the remains of ancient sea creatures, which means that everything

460
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 3: we've made from limestone, like the Pyramids of Giza, the

461
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 3: Washington Monument, the Colisseum, are also these secret monuments to

462
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 3: ancient ocean planton and sea life. So that totally blew

463
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 3: my mind. And you're absolutely right that so much of

464
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 3: the planet is made of the remains of life, or

465
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 3: was made by life, or was influenced by life in

466
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 3: some way, and a lot of it, you know, is

467
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 3: kind of like simultaneously graveyard and nursery, Like it's it's

468
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 3: the cemetery of ancient life, but it's also supporting and nourishing,

469
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 3: you know, the new generations and waves of life. And

470
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 3: of course that's also kind of what we're doing with

471
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 3: fossil fuels. Like if you really want to think about

472
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 3: it in an Earth's system science sense. What are we

473
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 3: doing when we you know, power our cars and everything

474
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 3: with gas. We are unearthing ancient stores of life that

475
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 3: have accumulated, you know, millions of years of sunlighte burning them,

476
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 3: combusting them to power our civilization, and then releasing their

477
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 3: carbon to the atmosphere, whereas with the typical Earth system,

478
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,959
Speaker 3: you know, they would have remained sequestered in the crust

479
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 3: for a long, long, long period of time. And so

480
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 3: understanding that, you know, this reciprocity between the geology and biology,

481
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 3: between carbon and life, and how we come in and

482
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 3: as you said, in a geological blink, in just a

483
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 3: few centuries, so much faster than any other species, completely

484
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 3: transform all of these planetary scale cycles. And we now

485
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 3: emit more carbon, sixty to one hundred and twenty times

486
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 3: more carbon than all the volcanoes on the planet combined.

487
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 3: You know, we are not just equal to volcanic power.

488
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 3: We're like many many, many times the power of volcanoes,

489
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 3: which really puts things in perspective.

490
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is the time scale. I think that

491
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: is important because all like I think people often say, like, well,

492
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,679
Speaker 1: all the things that humans do, right, it's stuff that

493
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: other species do. We try we you know, consume things,

494
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: we try to reach produce, we try to be successful,

495
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 1: we innovate, and sure we destroy things, but that that's

496
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: something that species throughout time have done and there have

497
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: been extinctions throughout time, and it's fine, the earth goes on,

498
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: things adapt, but it really is the the scary part

499
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: is the exponential speed at which we do it. Right,

500
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: Like I think of it in terms of when you

501
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: when if we think of the planet as as alive,

502
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: right when you have something like a some there's a

503
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: lot of bacteria you can have in your body and

504
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: it's fine, and they're actually they can actually be good.

505
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: Some are kind of bad for you, but your immune

506
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: system can deal with it. Some you know, it's like

507
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: some can be good for you up to a certain point,

508
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: and then if there's a little too much then it

509
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: can start to be bad for you. There's all these

510
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: like balances. But if you have something like necrotizing fasciitis,

511
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,719
Speaker 1: which is an extremely fast growing bacteria, it's the speed

512
00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: at this exponential growth of a bacteria that is destroying

513
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: your body and it can kill you. So it's like

514
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: that's not to be so me like, I'm not a misanthrope.

515
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: I do not hate humankind being a member of it.

516
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: But you know, in terms of our actions, right, like,

517
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: it is the rate at which we cause these problems

518
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: that is really kind of the main issue, because we're

519
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: it is the scale of introducing these new balance of

520
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: chemistry to the atmosphere or extracting these sequestered energy stores,

521
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,719
Speaker 1: and then you know, of course like warming the planet,

522
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: which which causes all these other externalities things like the

523
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: permafrost melting, and then releasing even more stored biomass, which

524
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: can if that like if that further degrades, that also

525
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: releases things like methane.

526
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 2: And so it's just like there.

527
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: Are all of these processes that we've sped up to

528
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: such a degree that it is it's that that kind

529
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: of creepy speed at which we can or I should say,

530
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: like unc any speed out which we can, as you know,

531
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: take these like very very long term processes and be

532
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: like what if we burn it all within a few decades.

533
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think you're exactly right. You know, I've come

534
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 3: to think of it as the combined speed and scale

535
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 3: of what our species has done is what is so unprecedented.

536
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,959
Speaker 3: And I talked to some scientists about this, and you know,

537
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 3: it's difficult to say definitively because there's so much about

538
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 3: ancient Earth history we can't know for sure, but it

539
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 3: is plausible that in the entirety of four point five

540
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 3: four billion years Earth history, there has never been this

541
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 3: particular volume of carbon released to the atmosphere this quickly,

542
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 3: which would make us not just biologically but geologically unique

543
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 3: in Earth history, you.

544
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,479
Speaker 2: Know, one I know, right.

545
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 3: So another horribly amazing example of this is plastic pollution,

546
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 3: because you know, you go back, yeah, like we go

547
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 3: back before nineteen fifty, plastic did not exist in any

548
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 3: significant quantity on this planet. Now it is so ubiquitous

549
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 3: that it is. It is horrifyingly ubiquitous. You know, we

550
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 3: find it in the clouds, in the deepest ocean trenches,

551
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 3: in our blood and our lungs. You know, in every

552
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 3: ecosystem we've looked in, these micro particles of plastic are there.

553
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 3: And that is something that we have done in a

554
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 3: matter of decades. I mean, that is truly astonishing, you know,

555
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 3: like life has repeatedly produced these new waste products or byproducts,

556
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 3: and then the whole Earth system has to deal with.

557
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 3: But that typically happens over an immense period of time,

558
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 3: not just in a few decades.

559
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 2: And that time skit.

560
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: Why that's so important is that evolution for many organisms,

561
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: many organisms, some can work very fast, like viruses, bacteria,

562
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: they can evolve quite quickly. But for larger organisms, for

563
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: larger plants, it is it is difficult to adapt to

564
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: changes that happen extremely quickly. There can be too like

565
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: get you know, if the skin if it's a fast change,

566
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: but the scale of it is limited. Yes, it can happen.

567
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously we've seen catastrophic events, mass extinctions throughout

568
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: the planet's history that have still been survivable in terms

569
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: of all the you know, like life does continue.

570
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: But yeah, it is.

571
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: It is spooky to me the speed at which we

572
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: have been introducing these changes. I have become unfortunately very

573
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: attuned to news about microplastics now, and it is it is,

574
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: it's pretty creepy. It's like to the point where I'm like,

575
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: can I get milk and glass bottles?

576
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 2: Is that a thing anymore?

577
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 3: I know?

578
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: I know that, Like it's funny because it's like it

579
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: is so ubiquitous at this point, Like me being anxious

580
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: about getting milk and plastic bottles is not not the

581
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: scale at which I need to be worried about things,

582
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: but it is still it is still kind of like,

583
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: you know, amazing in a way that is upsetting in

584
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: terms of like we now we're just now being like, oh,

585
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: we like within just a few decades, which is nothing

586
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: in terms of the planet's history. That is like, that

587
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: is like a blip, a tiny blip on the evolutionary scale.

588
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: We have somehow managed to get plastics in everything, and

589
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: we don't know what that means, right, We don't know

590
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: if that's completely inert, which I kind of doubt, or

591
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: and then if it is not inert, what that actually does,

592
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: because it's like not just microplastics now, it's like, oh,

593
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: there's even smaller pieces called nanoplastics, right, because if the

594
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: plastic little particles are big enough, the ideas like, well,

595
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: maybe they don't interfere too much with biological processes, but

596
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: if they're small enough, for sure that can interfere with

597
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: like cellular processes.

598
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: And yeah, it is it is a little.

599
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: Spooky that that's, you know, which we have introduced an

600
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: entirely new, you know, molecule that is ubiquitous everywhere, which

601
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: is like plastics everywhere, different kinds too, definitely, And.

602
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 3: Like you're saying it's such a new phenomenon, you know

603
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 3: that there's so much we don't know, Like so much

604
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 3: what we've learned about how plastic warps biological organisms as

605
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 3: individuals and then ecosystems as a whole is already alarming enough,

606
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 3: but then there's so many mysteries to resolve, Like the

607
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 3: majority of plastic pollution in the ocean is just is

608
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 3: bizarrely missing, like we don't know where it is, Like

609
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 3: we these tiny particles have just like there should be

610
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 3: a lot more of them based on our calculations, and

611
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 3: we can't find them. We don't know are they being somewhere, Yeah,

612
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,879
Speaker 3: are they buried in deep sentiments? Have like some sort

613
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 3: of life form eating them that we're not finding. Where

614
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 3: did they go?

615
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: Hopefully?

616
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, if something, if there's like a because like you know,

617
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: every I feel like every month, I'm like, oh, there's

618
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: a news article about bacteria that can eat plastic, Like.

619
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 2: Why is this not?

620
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: Like and then but it just it's sort of the

621
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 1: old canard of like you read every month about like

622
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 1: how they've cured every disease in mice, and it's like, okay,

623
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: then when is that actually going to be applied? But yeah,

624
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: I mean I am that is the other thing, right, Like,

625
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: if there is any candidate to be able to adapt

626
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: that quickly to our incredibly rapid rate of change, it

627
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: could be like microbial organisms like bacteria. I mean, viruses

628
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:20,919
Speaker 1: are interesting because we see them as such a bad

629
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: thing and maybe not even life.

630
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 3: Right.

631
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: There's so much like disagreement over whether viruses count as live, right,

632
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: because they're they're such a unique right, kind of like organism.

633
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: But you know, nevertheless, these like these things that have

634
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: incredible rates of reproduction and short lifespans are the ones

635
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: that may be able to better adapt to, say like

636
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: our sudden influx of plastics. But on the other hand,

637
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: they are also dependent on macro organisms.

638
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're absolutely right that, you know, microbes and

639
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 3: fungi are the ones that we are seeing potentially so

640
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,479
Speaker 3: to adapt to plastics presence and learn how to break

641
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 3: it down. And of course that's now generating interest and know,

642
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 3: can we use them in some way, you know, to

643
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 3: accelerate the breakdown of plastic And then of course you

644
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 3: run into you know what we could call the cane

645
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 3: toad problem, you know, where like you try to introduce something,

646
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 3: some organism, er species to some you know, ecosystem where

647
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 3: it wasn't before, and it leads to all these unintended consequences.

648
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 3: And I found this. There's actually a science fiction novel

649
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 3: from the seventies, I think, in which the time for

650
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 3: so they engineer microbes to eat plastic and then the

651
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,439
Speaker 3: microbes kind of escape and go wild, and planes start

652
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 3: dissolving in the you know, mid air, and think everything

653
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 3: starts falling apart because all these plastic infrastructure is being

654
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 3: you know, eaten by these renegade microbes. So that sort

655
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 3: of you know, unintended consequences is the is the concern

656
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 3: there as well. But yeah, it's like you're saying, you know,

657
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 3: in the long long run, I'm not concerned about the

658
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 3: ear system as a whole, because it has demonstrated this

659
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 3: incredible resiliency. You know, Earth will it app as a

660
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 3: system and life will rebound as a whole. But what

661
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 3: we are, we are, you know, what we're worried about

662
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,919
Speaker 3: is our way of life, our particular version of Earth

663
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 3: that we have enjoyed, or that we have helped create.

664
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 3: That is what we are rapidly destroying. And it won't

665
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 3: just be us that you know, will suffer. It's countless

666
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 3: of non human species as well. You know, their ecosystems

667
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 3: are also going to collapse. You know, their ways of

668
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 3: life are also going to fall apart. So that's what

669
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 3: we're trying to prevent, you know, is not you know,

670
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 3: not annihilating the living Earth as a whole, but preventing

671
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 3: it from becoming unrecognizable because it's there have been so

672
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 3: many different earths throughout Earth history, so many versions of

673
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 3: our planet, and we're trying to prevent us from going

674
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 3: into a version that is is not only unrecognizable to us,

675
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 3: but one that cannot sustain the way that we live anymore.

676
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: But so one thing I'm interested is, like, when you're

677
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: looking at organisms shaping the Earth, do you.

678
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: Think that like it is?

679
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: Is it the microorganisms that are doing the heavy lifting

680
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: in terms of changing the earth or our macro organisms

681
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: also pretty good? I mean, let's maybe let's just like

682
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 1: humans aside, because obviously humans we are experts at doing this, right,

683
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 1: like we rival cyanobacteria and our ability to completely transform

684
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 1: the earth. But like if we ignore humans for now, Like,

685
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: do you think it is the microorganisms or the macro

686
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: organisms that do most of the legwork in terms of

687
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: shaping the planet.

688
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 3: I think we have to give microbes a lot of credit.

689
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 3: I think of them as kind of handling the fundamentals,

690
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 3: you know, laying the groundwork for everything else. Because for

691
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 3: more than two billion years our planet was exclusively microbial.

692
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 3: There was no complex, multi failure life to speak of.

693
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 3: And it was you know, cyanobacteria microbes that began the

694
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 3: oxygenation of Earth, but then it was later continued by

695
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 3: allergy and land plants, so you see a kind of

696
00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 3: you know, a partnership or concerted effort there. So, you know, microbes,

697
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 3: they oxygenated the planet largely, they revolutionize the chemistry. They

698
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 3: may have played a role in the formation of the continents.

699
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 3: They seem to calibrate ocean chemistry to some extent. They're

700
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 3: really you know, handling those fundamentals. But large you know,

701
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 3: mega like a macro scale organisms that are playing a

702
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 3: really important role too, in particular animals, because they are

703
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 3: the most dynamic living elements, the most mobile and dynamic

704
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 3: living elements in the Earth system, and they are really

705
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 3: important for nutrient cycles. So in addition to kind of

706
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 3: physically re sculpting the crust all the time, they are

707
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 3: keeping carbon and nitrogen and phosphorus, all these elements we

708
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 3: depend on to live. They're cycling them through the planet's layers.

709
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 3: You know, they're cycling them from land to sea and

710
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,879
Speaker 3: back again. And you know, so everything from whales to jellyfish,

711
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 3: to eagles to bears to otters, they're participating in these

712
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 3: nutrient cycles in a very important way. And this concept

713
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 3: is now known as zoo geochemistry that we have to

714
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 3: you know, put animals right back in the center of

715
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 3: these nutrient cycles and not just see it as purely

716
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 3: geological or geochemical cycles. And so it's you know, it's

717
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 3: really everything together. Like the present Earth system really depends

718
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 3: on everything, Like it's the microbes and the fungi and

719
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 3: the plants and the animals. You could have an Earth

720
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 3: that is purely microbial, as we did before, but it

721
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 3: would not be the Earth.

722
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: That we know, No, certainly, not unless unless we could

723
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: get real tiny yeah no, but what would be So

724
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 1: like when you're talking about these nutrient cycles, right like basically.

725
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 2: Taking these these.

726
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,479
Speaker 1: Elements and moving them from uh, maybe from the sea

727
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: to terrestrial land or to the atmosphere, Like what what

728
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,439
Speaker 1: would that look like like? For so for an otter

729
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: to help out with this sort of uh, this distribution system,

730
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: like what what is the otter doing?

731
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 3: Right? So it always begins with terrestrial plants helping to

732
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 3: break down the crust and the rocks of the planet,

733
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,320
Speaker 3: which then flushes minerals and nutrients to the ocean in rivers.

734
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,919
Speaker 3: Those nutrients and minerals nourish ocean life like plankton, which

735
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 3: then you know, feed the entire rest of the ocean

736
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 3: food system of food web. And then you have some fish,

737
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 3: for example, will migrate from the ocean back to the land,

738
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 3: you know, back to rivers and lakes, and that's where

739
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,959
Speaker 3: things like bears or otters are going to catch those

740
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 3: fish that are bringing the nutrients back to the land.

741
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 3: And then you might have some bears or otters something

742
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 3: leave a fish carcass, you know, on the shore somewhere,

743
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 3: and now those nutrients are going to go back into

744
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 3: the soil and feed the terrestrial plant life that began

745
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 3: that whole cycle in the first place.

746
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: It's so cool, Yeah, it is very like when you

747
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: think about these things. It's like all of Earth is

748
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 1: just a giant game of very complicated ping pong ball.

749
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 1: What's uh, what is something that like while you were

750
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: writing and researching this book, Is there something that you

751
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: learned that like really shocked you in the In the

752
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 1: writing of this book.

753
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 3: I was particularly fascinated by the co evolutionary braid between

754
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 3: plant life, oxygen, and fire. So fire plays this fascinating

755
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 3: role in the Earth system. And you know, as we

756
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 3: were talking about, before before life oxigenated the atmosphere, fire

757
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 3: was not possible. There were no wildfires. But also you

758
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 3: need dry combustible matter to burn, which did not exist

759
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 3: before lands, you know, significantly populated the continents. So the

760
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 3: birth of fire, as we understand it didn't really happen

761
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 3: until something like four hundred and twenty million years ago,

762
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 3: you know, which is not that much of earth history, right,

763
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 3: But since then has been hugely important for you know,

764
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 3: Earth as we recognize it, because plants and fire have

765
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,919
Speaker 3: continually co evolved with each other and have shaped each other.

766
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 3: And you know, scientists and writers talk about fire kind

767
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 3: of being embedded in the biology of the planet and

768
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 3: these fire regimes, these patterns and frequency of wildfires in particular,

769
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 3: ecosystems evolve with those ecosystems, and so for a long

770
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 3: time the level of oxygen in the atmosphere fluctuated wildly.

771
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 3: But in the past fifty million years has been remarkably

772
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 3: stable compared to the ancient past, hovering around twenty one

773
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 3: percent where it is today, and scientists now think that

774
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 3: maybe the explanation for that is this coevolution of plant life,

775
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 3: fire and oxygen. And the basic idea here is that,

776
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 3: you know, if the level of oxygen gets too high,

777
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 3: it's going to stimulate and foster these massive, raging wildfires

778
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,760
Speaker 3: that are going to burn down huge tracts of vegetation.

779
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 3: By doing that, they actually weaken the very mechanism by

780
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 3: which oxygen accumulates in the atmosphere, because it's only the

781
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 3: continual burial of photosynthetic matter that allows oxygen to accumulate.

782
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 3: So fires burn down a lot of plants, oxygen starts

783
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 3: to dip back down again, and that is this negative

784
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 3: or stabilizing feedback on the level of oxygen that perhaps

785
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 3: keeps it in a zone where it allows an immense

786
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 3: you know, diversity of fire adapted life to exist. But

787
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 3: it doesn't go so high that a single spark would

788
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 3: turn the entire planet into a fireball, you know. So

789
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 3: it's keeping it in that more habitable zone. And we

790
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 3: see these kinds of fascinating feedbacks you know, throughout the

791
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 3: Earth system, and that's entirely what not only our civilization

792
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 3: but all our ecosystems depend on is remaining within these boundaries,

793
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 3: you know, and they're pretty narrow compared to where the

794
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 3: Earth has been in the past, Like there have been

795
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 3: times where we had a snowball or a slushball Earth

796
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 3: where like most of the Earth was covered in ice,

797
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 3: you know, or times where the Earth was in an

798
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 3: extreme hothouse state with an average temperature much much higher

799
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 3: than it is today and you had crocodiles and palm

800
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 3: trees like in the Arctic regions. So you know, we

801
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 3: are part of what we are engaged in right now

802
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 3: is trying to keep Earth within that much narrower habitable

803
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 3: climate zone.

804
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 1: Right Sadly, it means we don't get to have giant bugs,

805
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: but you know, right I want I want those pigeon

806
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: sized dragonflies.

807
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 3: I think they It's funny. Most people I tell about

808
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 3: that are like immediately repulse, but you and I are like, no,

809
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 3: we want.

810
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: Cash. Yeah, I can you man, just like having having

811
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: a pet. I don't know, a little a weavil, a

812
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 1: pet weavil.

813
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 3: Really literally And you say that. I just told my

814
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 3: partners the other day. You know in a Nausica of

815
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 3: the Valley of the Wind that me is Zaki movie.

816
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 3: She has that incredible yeah yeah, she has like that

817
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 3: old fox like creature. And I was like, what if

818
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 3: somebody had like a dragonfly, you know.

819
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 1: Giant That's gonna be like if I if I write

820
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: like a pirate fantasy, it's gonna be a high oxygen environment.

821
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: And they've got instead of parrots, they've got giant dragonflies.

822
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 3: Right.

823
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 2: I love that movie. By the way, You show me.

824
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: A giant bug and I'm happy. Yeah, I'm easy, easy

825
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: to please. Before we go, we do got to play

826
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: a little game. It's called Guess who squawk on the

827
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: Mystery Animal Sound Game.

828
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 2: Every week I select.

829
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: A mystery animal sound and you the listener, and you

830
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 1: the guests, try to guess who is making that sound.

831
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: So the hint for this week's sound is is this

832
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: is it a cat or a noodle?

833
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 2: All Right? You got any guesses?

834
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 3: Wow, that's fascinating. So it does. It did immediately remind

835
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 3: me of some of the noises I've heard my cats

836
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 3: make in the past. You know, something like that that

837
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 3: shittering they do when they see a flying creature. Oh, yeah, sometimes, and.

838
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 2: I had a cat who would do that.

839
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the exactly and muling and such. Wait when

840
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 3: you say, is it a cat, you say? Or a

841
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 3: noodle like?

842
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 2: Or a noodle?

843
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, or a noodle like a danger noodle.

844
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 2: Lots of different types of noodles. Also, there's so many types.

845
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 3: It also, Oh, you know what. It also reminds me.

846
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 3: I've seen this clip of a sleeping hummingbird that is snoring.

847
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 2: I've seen that. I've seen that.

848
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 3: Similar to that.

849
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 1: That is, I've seen that video. It is the cutest thing.

850
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: It's I will give you another hint. It's not that

851
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: that's an excellent idea. I'm going to spring that that

852
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 1: mystery sound on you guys. One of these days you're

853
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: going to get a snoozing hummingbird, but you won't know

854
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: when it's coming. All right, So you got got any

855
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: more guesses or you want me to reveal.

856
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's uh. If you have one more hints, I'll

857
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 3: take one or we can just do the reveal it is.

858
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: It is not a cat or a noodle, but somehow

859
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: it's both at the same time. And it is something

860
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: that uh is, let's see, although it is in the

861
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:05,839
Speaker 1: peliform suborder.

862
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 3: Interesting. Okay, so something cat like? M okay, what is it?

863
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 3: I give up?

864
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 2: It is a genet.

865
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 3: Oh.

866
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: They are closely related to civets and actually the binterong,

867
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 1: which is a whole other thing on its own, much

868
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 1: more closely related to genets than they are too wild

869
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 1: or domesticated cats.

870
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 2: But they look very cat like.

871
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 1: They are this long spotted, they have a bit I

872
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 1: guess a pointier face than a cat. They kind of

873
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: look like a weasel and a cat had a spotty,

874
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 1: large baby. So there are multiple species of Genant, all

875
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,720
Speaker 1: of whom originate from Africa. The common genant was actually

876
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: in produced to Europe around a thousand years ago, so

877
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,760
Speaker 1: it can still be found in some parts of Europe.

878
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 1: They are omnivorous and they will eat small vertebrates, including

879
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: fish in species who live near water, They'll eat insects, invertebrates, fruits, vegetation,

880
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: pretty much anything that they can get their little mouths on.

881
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 1: Sometimes you do see them as pets in the exotic

882
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: pet trade. I would very much advise against this, not

883
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 1: only because of the obvious issues in terms of the

884
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 1: pet trade, which can be quite bad for populations of

885
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 1: wild animals, it's also just like they are really really

886
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,879
Speaker 1: hard to keep fed, have a good diet because they're

887
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 1: so omnivorous, Because they have such a very diet, to

888
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: recreate that in captivity or in sort of a pet

889
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 1: situation would be really hard, really challenging, so it's not

890
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 1: going to be having a very healthy life as a pet.

891
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 1: They're also really stinky and unfriendly. So other than the

892
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: appeal that people have in terms of exotic pets being

893
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: like unique most exotic pets, the reason that they're not

894
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: they have not become common domesticated pets is because they're

895
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:21,280
Speaker 1: stinky and unfriendly. So onto this week's mystery animal sound.

896
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 2: This is the hint.

897
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: These guys are free living exterminators.

898
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 2: I did you hear that little like? Yeah, got any guesses?

899
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 3: That sounds that sounds very tropical rainforesty to me, and

900
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 3: it's making me think of maybe a bug eating small

901
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 3: primate or some sort of light tree living or gliding

902
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 3: rodent like a flying squirrel or something of something small.

903
00:50:55,640 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 3: The may furry mammalian bug eating creature something of that relph.

904
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: Small bug eating possibly mammalion. Well, I will reveal the

905
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: answer on the next episode of Creature Feature. Farris, thank

906
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: you so much for joining me today. Tell the people

907
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: where they can get your book, what it's called, and

908
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: where else they can read your stuff.

909
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. It's all. It's a pleasure

910
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 3: as always. So. The book's called The Coming Earth, How

911
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 3: Our Planet Came to Life. It's out from Random House.

912
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 3: It should be available anywhere online you buy books, and

913
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 3: of course at your local favorite bookstore. You can read

914
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 3: most of my work in the New York Times magazine,

915
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 3: and you can find more of my writing at my website.

916
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 3: Is just my name, Farris jaberjabr dot com.

917
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 2: Excellent. Yeah, well, I'm so happy to have you back

918
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 2: on the show.

919
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: This is really fun, and thank you guys so much

920
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 1: for listening.

921
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: If you're enjoying the show.

922
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: And you leave a rating and review, that actually helps

923
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: me and I read all of them. If you even

924
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 1: just do a review, that's like, Hi, Katie, I have

925
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: a question and I'll read it and maybe answer it

926
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 1: on the show. Also, if you'd prefer to just email

927
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,399
Speaker 1: me your questions, you can do so at creaturefutureplod at

928
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 1: gmail dot com, where I will either try to answer

929
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: your question directly through your email, or I do listener

930
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 1: questions episodes every so often and your questions are greatly appreciated.

931
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:20,399
Speaker 2: Or you know, send me pictures of your pets. That's

932
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 2: always fun.

933
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,280
Speaker 1: And thanks to the Space Classics for their super awesome

934
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 1: song x A Lumina.

935
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 2: Creature features a production of iHeartRadio.

936
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: For more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit

937
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio.

938
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 2: App Apple Podcasts, or Hey Guess what where if you

939
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows. I don't judge you. I

940
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 2: can't tell you what to do.

941
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: I'm not sure move See you next Wednesday.