Speaker 1: The identity of that matters most to me is that
Speaker 1: I am a person. I'm a human. Yeah, and the
Speaker 1: thing that matters most to me is what do I
Speaker 1: do with being human?
Speaker 2: Welcome to when You're Invisible. My name is Maria Fernanda Vies,
Speaker 2: but I know not everyone can roll their ours, so
Speaker 2: it's fine to call me Maria. When You're Invisible is
Speaker 2: my love letter to the working class and others who
Speaker 2: are seemingly invisible in our society. I hope to build
Speaker 2: a community here that will inspire you to have generous
Speaker 2: conversations with others that are different from you, conversations that
Speaker 2: might help you see life in an entirely different way.
Speaker 1: Let's get started.
Speaker 2: This is so cool. I have my brother across from me.
Speaker 2: Do you want to introduce yourself? And by do you
Speaker 2: want to please introduce yourself?
Speaker 1: The look in his eye was like do I No?
Speaker 1: The real question was which name do I introduce myself with?
Speaker 1: My name is Francisco Las.
Speaker 2: The consideration that Francisco has with his name is one
Speaker 2: that we all have when you have a long Latin name.
Speaker 2: For example, Francisco's full legal name is Francisco Andres Bies Busso.
Speaker 2: I laugh at this moment because of course he's considering
Speaker 2: that at the top of an interview, and it's hilarious
Speaker 2: because he's super excited to do this interview. He's getting goofy,
Speaker 2: but then he's also slowly, ever so slightly sliding into
Speaker 2: what I call his interview mode, his professional mode, where
Speaker 2: he straightens his body and you can see his head
Speaker 2: tilting just like ever so slightly to make sure that
Speaker 2: you know he's in position, ready to go. It's a
Speaker 2: fun little phenomenon to watch. My brother, Francisco is one
Speaker 2: year older than me. I call this Mexican twins since
Speaker 2: we're two months shy, being Irish twins. He's a goofy
Speaker 2: person in private, but he's very serious and passionate when
Speaker 2: he talks about the things he cares about, which we
Speaker 2: all will notice. I have a particular image of my brother.
Speaker 2: He is smart, thoughtful, driven at time's intense, and definitely
Speaker 2: marching to the beat of his own drum. He loves
Speaker 2: Radiohead and Blink one eighty two, and at his core
Speaker 2: he's always been an alternative punk rock soul. He's a short,
Speaker 2: five to five man with small wooden hoops in his
Speaker 2: ears and he's had a beard since high school, and
Speaker 2: when he's not in T shirts, you can find him
Speaker 2: wearing floral button ups. Since we ended last season talking
Speaker 2: to my parents, I thought this interview was the perfect
Speaker 2: place to start off season two. The person I spent
Speaker 2: the most time with what was you? Yep, we are
Speaker 2: best friends and we have been since we were kids.
Speaker 2: What did we do for fun?
Speaker 1: We built like couch for and like created whole invented stories,
Speaker 1: and then we played with legos and we played soccer
Speaker 1: with our dad a lot. I think traveling with you,
Speaker 1: mom and dad like that was always great. And I
Speaker 1: think the fact that we traveled all the time meant that,
Speaker 1: like change wasn't bad. There was always something exciting to explore,
Speaker 1: something exciting, to know something new, to see that something
Speaker 1: that I think about a lot.
Speaker 2: So Francisco and I were born in Ithaca, a New
Speaker 2: York college town, in community with Latinos from different countries
Speaker 2: and different ethnicities and actually a lot of different immigrants.
Speaker 2: It was a community of people who helped each other
Speaker 2: out immensely. It was an amazing thing to grow up
Speaker 2: in and honestly it shaped both of us. Our family
Speaker 2: then moved to Minnesota when we were in grade school,
Speaker 2: which was a big change in all of our lives,
Speaker 2: and once we went off to college, our parents moved again,
Speaker 2: this time to Georgia. In addition to changing our hometown,
Speaker 2: our family would travel back to Mexico a lot. My
Speaker 2: parents were also big on road trips. Francisco and I
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time in the backseat of a
Speaker 2: car to gather traveling across the country to visit different
Speaker 2: sites in state parks. Francisco was known for always asking
Speaker 2: where are we going, what are we doing, Who's coming?
Speaker 2: I was known for saying I want to go home.
Speaker 2: Meeting new people and experiencing the unknown where things we
Speaker 2: both learned to work with. So with our life experiences
Speaker 2: being similar, what are some of the core things you
Speaker 2: think we share?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: What comes to mind?
Speaker 1: We share a lot. I think we have similar values,
Speaker 1: both personal moral values or virtues that we try and practice,
Speaker 1: and as a result, we have very similar politics. What
Speaker 1: else do we share? An appreciation for art?
Speaker 2: How do we differ?
Speaker 1: I think I'm a little bit nerdier than you are, in.
Speaker 2: A b in a cool way to me, I always
Speaker 2: wished I was nerdy like you. It's interesting how you
Speaker 2: can grow up side by side with someone and share
Speaker 2: so many life experiences and still end up with such
Speaker 2: different personalities because as close as we are, we are different.
Speaker 2: Something that surprised me during this conversation was learning how
Speaker 2: differently we viewed our identities as in betweeners. We're Mexican
Speaker 2: and American, we speak Spanish, English, and French. We're white
Speaker 2: passing Latinos. We grew up in diverse communities, in white
Speaker 2: communities and Latino communities. We grew up working class on
Speaker 2: food stamps and then later became middle class. And we
Speaker 2: have all of these different elements to ourselves, which means
Speaker 2: that we belong to a lot of different communities, which
Speaker 2: is beautiful, but it also means we don't fully belong
Speaker 2: in any single community. And I think personally, I learned
Speaker 2: to own this part of me early on. It was
Speaker 2: something that I found beautiful and empowering and grounded me
Speaker 2: when other people didn't know how to place me. And
Speaker 2: I think Francisco's journey coming to terms with that was
Speaker 2: actually not quite the same as a person who is
Speaker 2: in between in terms of growing up, Like, do you
Speaker 2: feel like you ever felt lonely or do you feel
Speaker 2: like there's a power in that is.
Speaker 1: Our power in having this in between identity that feels
Speaker 1: kind of lonely. Not really in my opinion, because I
Speaker 1: think power is a feature of the collective, and so
Speaker 1: I really don't believe that there is like a whole
Speaker 1: lot of power other than the fact that being in
Speaker 1: between men that we were familiar with multiple different experiences
Speaker 1: of people and able to translate those things.
Speaker 2: For Francisco, power is all about commonality and connection, and honestly,
Speaker 2: that's a foundation.
Speaker 1: Of who he is.
Speaker 2: My brother is a unity organizer in Philly. In the US,
Speaker 2: we've been seeing a resurgence of strikes and of mutual aid.
Speaker 2: I feel like people are getting tired of the fact
Speaker 2: that things never change, and we're starting to believe in
Speaker 2: the power of the people again and take action around
Speaker 2: that on a bigger scale. I've always been interested in
Speaker 2: how these movements start and in the people who make
Speaker 2: them possible. I really wanted to interview Francisco because being
Speaker 2: an organizer is not just his job, it's his passion,
Speaker 2: it's his mission in life, and it encapsulates who he is.
Speaker 2: I think it actually just highlighted who he's always been
Speaker 2: He's always cared about politics and people. He's always stood
Speaker 2: up for what he believes in and what he believes
Speaker 2: is right, no matter what others think. And he's done
Speaker 2: that for as long as I can remember. When did
Speaker 2: you first become interested in politics?
Speaker 1: I think it was probably sometime in third ish grade
Speaker 1: when I realized that, like history, politics was the formal
Speaker 1: arena in which major things changed history were decided, and
Speaker 1: that was how I perceived politics. Like what was interested
Speaker 1: in the Maya, the Aztecs, I watched the History Channel.
Speaker 1: I still remember the day when we learned about World
Speaker 1: War two. Yeah, in third grade, and that was super
Speaker 1: captivating to me.
Speaker 2: It's cute because this curiosity about history and politics at
Speaker 2: a young age made me think about his own ability
Speaker 2: to think strategically and where that came from. He's always
Speaker 2: been someone who has had his eye on the future,
Speaker 2: and he's always looking at the big picture. And as
Speaker 2: he grew up and went to high school, I think
Speaker 2: this really became a mechanism for survival.
Speaker 1: I saw us focusing on school, on my academics as
Speaker 1: a method to get away from the place that we
Speaker 1: were growing up in, because I did not like growing
Speaker 1: up in Minnesota. I did not like most of my
Speaker 1: peers at the time, and I wanted to be far away,
Speaker 1: and to me, staying in Minnesota felt like being stuck
Speaker 1: in hell with these people who said horrible things to me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not infrequently.
Speaker 2: To fit into our high school in the suburbs of
Speaker 2: Saint Paul, you had to be white, conservative, upper middle
Speaker 2: class Protestant where Abercrombie and Fitch in the Old American Eagle,
Speaker 2: and that just wasn't Francisco, what was a defining moment
Speaker 2: for you as a kid.
Speaker 1: The first thing that came up into my brain was
Speaker 1: being bullied in high school, explicitly around several different themes. Right,
Speaker 1: one was being left leaning or a do gooder, or
Speaker 1: someone who said that's racist or that's sexist, or that's
Speaker 1: classiest or whatever. Like, I think the thing that was
Speaker 1: like vitally important to me was the fact that, like,
Speaker 1: why are you saying horrible things about people like me
Speaker 1: that you were saying You're not like that basically because
Speaker 1: you are extremely white passing.
Speaker 2: Francisco always wanted to stand up for people, even when
Speaker 2: he wasn't the target of bullying, but it was never
Speaker 2: to shame anyone. It was always to create better empathy
Speaker 2: and understanding. One thing he always asks is why, And
Speaker 2: I think his curiosity about the why it was an
Speaker 2: attempt to show people the double standards or biases that
Speaker 2: they were using, and that was something that personally affected
Speaker 2: him oftentimes just because he wasn't recognized as being Mexican
Speaker 2: or having immigrant parents, whether it was because he was
Speaker 2: light skinned, or his intelligence versus the stereotypes that people
Speaker 2: at school were used to. It didn't mean that he
Speaker 2: was going to hide any part of himself. And the
Speaker 2: thing about being an in betweener is that you can
Speaker 2: get attacked for fitting into stereotypes, whether you're called derogatory
Speaker 2: terms like we back bean er, lazy, or you can
Speaker 2: be targeted for pushing up quote unquote against the stereotypes,
Speaker 2: you know, for being the smart one, or for speaking
Speaker 2: articulate English as people would say, you're damned if you
Speaker 2: do and you're damned if you don't.
Speaker 1: One of the defining moments that I think I had
Speaker 1: a lot of trauma around for a long time was
Speaker 1: this moment where in history class I was forced to
Speaker 1: basically debate the entire class because I was the only
Speaker 1: one who believed in reparations for slavery. And there was
Speaker 1: a point at which I was being yelled at by
Speaker 1: the other side, and the source of things that they
Speaker 1: were saying, calling me a fag, calling me very derogatory
Speaker 1: terms for being Mexican, very derogatory terms for being a leftist.
Speaker 1: They called me a commie, you know, and all these
Speaker 1: things combined, and the fact that they had to resort
Speaker 1: to trying to insult my identity as a human being
Speaker 1: during the debate, it was, Yeah, it was pretty difficult.
Speaker 2: Being in a situation like this. It forces Francisco to
Speaker 2: think about how all people see him and how they
Speaker 2: see people like him. It exposes his classmates bias and hate,
Speaker 2: and he's being put into a box when he's just
Speaker 2: a teenager dealing with hormones, still trying to figure out
Speaker 2: who he is.
Speaker 1: I think what was very difficult about being bullied was
Speaker 1: that I didn't even know who I was, and I
Speaker 1: was being labeled things. I was being labeled a fag.
Speaker 1: It turns out I like ended up being more queer
Speaker 1: than not queer, like being attracted to people. I didn't
Speaker 1: have really limitations on what I thought was attractive and
Speaker 1: who I thought was attractive, right, I mean called a kami,
Speaker 1: and I didn't know what I was. I knew I
Speaker 1: was at least liberal, but I also didn't think I
Speaker 1: was just a liberal. Also, being called things about being
Speaker 1: Mexican was also something like, okay, so I clearly don't
Speaker 1: belong here. I'm also American. I'm United States in right,
Speaker 1: like I was born in this country, I am a citizen.
Speaker 1: We were taught growing up that like, borders exist, but
Speaker 1: they don't really make difference on the value of a
Speaker 1: human life.
Speaker 2: This culture of cruelty was very counterintuitive to what we
Speaker 2: had grown up with, which was a foundation of unconditional love.
Speaker 2: And thankfully, because of Francisco's ability to hold on to
Speaker 2: the core of who he was, he was still able
Speaker 2: to find really good friends.
Speaker 1: In high school, some of the people I hung out
Speaker 1: with were kids who lived in trailer parks because there
Speaker 1: were weirdos and emokahs and punks, and they were the
Speaker 1: ones who didn't really care who I was, and I
Speaker 1: just hung out with them. And I think that was
Speaker 1: a very different sort of experience. You know, I haven't
Speaker 1: talked about the positive aspects, but that was like one
Speaker 1: of the positive aspects. I think and like us, having
Speaker 1: similar ideas that this was all dumb and ridiculous.
Speaker 2: Francisco during this time embraces his otherness, the punk rebel
Speaker 2: inside of himself, because it was an ugly place to
Speaker 2: fit in. He didn't want to be a part of
Speaker 2: this culture.
Speaker 1: The one thing I will say is that I think
Speaker 1: my identity really mattered to me as a way to
Speaker 1: differentiate myself from others. And I think that might just
Speaker 1: be teenage angst tendencies, but what I think ended up
Speaker 1: mattering more to me as I grew older and as
Speaker 1: I became an organizer and got inspired by people who
Speaker 1: changed the world for others and themselves. The things that
Speaker 1: we held in common were much more important than the
Speaker 1: things that differentiated us. Yeah, and I think that is
Speaker 1: the biggest shift in my understanding of identity.
Speaker 2: Francisco ends up leaving Minnesota when he gets into Yale
Speaker 2: for college. There he meets some of his best friends
Speaker 2: to this day, and he continued to grow as a thinker, doer,
Speaker 2: and overall person. This time further transformed how he thought
Speaker 2: about himself and how he relates to others. He channeled
Speaker 2: his once rebellious teenage self into an organizer. Yeah, he's
Speaker 2: still an oddball in the best ways, but today he
Speaker 2: cares less about standing out and be different and cares
Speaker 2: more about commonality and community. That's coming after the break.
Speaker 1: Realizing look at all these white, black and brown people
Speaker 1: that I am one of, that have so much potential
Speaker 1: to fight and make things better for themselves, and that
Speaker 1: we all deserve better.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back, welcome back to when you're invisible.
Speaker 1: The identities now that I matter most to me are
Speaker 1: the ones that I've chosen. Probably the beginning of things
Speaker 1: was when I found philosophy, was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I can choose who I am.
Speaker 2: This makes me think of how this day and age
Speaker 2: we focus a lot on the major identifiers of ourselves,
Speaker 2: whether it's race, gender, sexuality, and while those are beautiful
Speaker 2: parts of ourselves and worth all the acknowledgment, it's a
Speaker 2: good thing to remember there's a lot of complexity in
Speaker 2: layers in each individual that deserves to be noticed and celebrated.
Speaker 2: Francisco personally has come to really connect with the parts
Speaker 2: of himself that are doing and creating the world he
Speaker 2: wants to build.
Speaker 1: The identity that matters most to me is that I'm
Speaker 1: a worker, yeah, and that I'm an organizer.
Speaker 2: He works for the Center for Popular Democracy, where he
Speaker 2: helps people fight for workers' rights on a state and
Speaker 2: national level, whether writing policy or leading actions.
Speaker 1: And what an organizer means is that I'm interested in
Speaker 1: helping more people discover their own self interest and their
Speaker 1: own power, and their ability to come together and to
Speaker 1: grow that group of people.
Speaker 2: Right, Francisco laid out the beliefs he's developed and the
Speaker 2: things he's come to really care about in his work.
Speaker 1: The way I thought about what my politics were was
Speaker 1: slowly orienting in a direction of believing that regular people
Speaker 1: should have power, like I knew, I wanted a society
Speaker 1: that was like had strong levels of equality of opportunity.
Speaker 1: I mean, like true equality of access to advantage, so
Speaker 1: that a person who has a little bit and a
Speaker 1: person who has a lot have actually the same equal
Speaker 1: opportunities to get the same position. People actually have real
Speaker 1: freedom of choice. In most workplaces, almost no one has freedom.
Speaker 1: The workplaces where we get closest to some level of
Speaker 1: freedom is in unionized workplaces. And then the last thing
Speaker 1: is having community matters a lot. I'm someone who now
Speaker 1: belongs in a political tradition that believes all human beings
Speaker 1: are equal, that we deserve to live in safe, free communities,
Speaker 1: and that we don't have that right now, and that's
Speaker 1: something really deep has to change in our society.
Speaker 2: These values are very personal and deeply rooted within him.
Speaker 2: It's part of how he sees himself and his story
Speaker 2: and our story, and that keeps him grounded even when
Speaker 2: the chaos and the loneliness feel overwhelming.
Speaker 1: What are the political traditions that I can identify with
Speaker 1: our family history? Right? People in the United States often
Speaker 1: tell stories of their great grandparents fighting in World War
Speaker 1: Two or things like that. That's a point of pride because, yeah,
Speaker 1: they fought fascists. Our great grandparents were in the Mexican Revolution,
Speaker 1: and there is a deep history to be very proud
Speaker 1: of as Mexicans, of the political ideas that people were
Speaker 1: willing to fight and die for.
Speaker 2: Can you say a little more about that.
Speaker 1: Mexico abolish slavery way before the United States did, because
Speaker 1: partisan Guaretro was of mixed African, indigenous and white ancestry
Speaker 1: in Mexico City.
Speaker 2: Was part of the underground railroad, was it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I didn't know that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, part of the Southern underground railroad was to go
Speaker 2: all the way to Mexico.
Speaker 1: Well, it makes sense.
Speaker 2: The founding of Mexico itself and the Mexican Revolution are
Speaker 2: fights for liberation of all its people. We have working
Speaker 2: class and poor people fighting against elite landowners for the
Speaker 2: redistribution of wealth. And honestly, what's beautiful about Mexican history
Speaker 2: is that there are Mexican scholars who are constantly trying
Speaker 2: to reclaim and preserve Mexico's complex history of resistance and liberation.
Speaker 2: And we were always told these stories at the dinner
Speaker 2: table with my parents, and we got to hear the
Speaker 2: stories of how our family was involved in that personal way.
Speaker 1: And then I think, as someone who identifies in a
Speaker 1: Pan Latino American sort of way, you know, the history
Speaker 1: of the fight for freedom independence in South America is
Speaker 1: also worth noting because the fight for liberation was by
Speaker 1: unifying all these different people ethnicities and nationalities and racial
Speaker 1: groups under one manner. And to do that you had
Speaker 1: to promote a vision of equality that mattered to everyone.
Speaker 2: Like Mexican history, Latin America is its own inspiration. For
Speaker 2: my brother, someone who really looks up to is Simon Boliverer,
Speaker 2: who fought for the end of colonial rule and united
Speaker 2: people across ethnicities and nationalities. It's somewhat the origins of
Speaker 2: Latini Dad to me at least, and it roots Francisco
Speaker 2: in a sense of history, purpose and care. What was
Speaker 2: your first experience with organizing.
Speaker 1: My very first experience with organizing was really like when
Speaker 1: I did volunteering for the Obama campaign in two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight. I would knock on doors in our suburban
Speaker 1: neighborhoods in Minnesota, right as a part of that process,
Speaker 1: and that was very interesting. That was me coming face
Speaker 1: to face with white supremacy and white supremacist myths. Very quickly.
Speaker 1: People would tell me things like Obama is a black
Speaker 1: Marxist who wants to destroy this country m hm. And
Speaker 1: you have to be really, really racist and have really
Speaker 1: racist ideas to buy that. And it was also my
Speaker 1: first lesson in how to deal with mass rejection.
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, So that was the first time, and then
Speaker 2: as an adult I.
Speaker 1: Was organized again. In college. I was basically brought into
Speaker 1: the unite Here organizing world. Unite Here is a union
Speaker 1: for everyone who's listening that has done really good job
Speaker 1: of organizing unions of workers on Yale's campus and throughout
Speaker 1: the city of New Haven and have been really effective
Speaker 1: at organizing, and people close to them have been very
Speaker 1: good at organizing elected local elected officials. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: got involved on knocking on doors for those folks the
Speaker 1: way I did for Obama.
Speaker 2: Before his senior year of college, Francisco got to experience
Speaker 2: community organizing abroad for his thesis. He connected with Latin
Speaker 2: American activists when he was doing research in Ecuador for
Speaker 2: the summer. Then, after graduating, he decides to go abroad again.
Speaker 2: He accepts a job in South Africa.
Speaker 1: I had left the country with the intention of not
Speaker 1: permanently coming back, because my opinion of the state of
Speaker 1: American politics in twenty fourteen was that it was fucked
Speaker 1: all the way through and that there was no chance
Speaker 1: for anything good to happen, and that the best chance
Speaker 1: for this country was for it to decay. And that's
Speaker 1: a pretty depressing, nihilistic sort of attitude from a child
Speaker 1: of privilege who knew nothing about actually building power. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to say it that way.
Speaker 2: Which, So, what, for example, has that changed how you
Speaker 2: view the US?
Speaker 1: It has changed pretty dramatically, right, I think there were
Speaker 1: a couple things that changed that. Right, I think I
Speaker 1: was in a position of privilege to want to leave
Speaker 1: the United States and try and find a place to
Speaker 1: leave the United States. I wanted to go to Ecuador.
Speaker 1: I wanted to go to somewhere in South America and
Speaker 1: go work for some exciting left wing politicians there. Right,
Speaker 1: something that had happened when I had done research in Ecuador,
Speaker 1: when I had talked to organizers, activists and government officials
Speaker 1: and leaders, was if you had mentioned, like you should
Speaker 1: consider doing the work in the United States. And my
Speaker 1: attitude was why. And the thing that I was running
Speaker 1: into was people in different places saying things like we
Speaker 1: need you and people like you in the United States
Speaker 1: to change the United States. There is going to be
Speaker 1: limitations on what we can do here if your country
Speaker 1: does not change. Yeah, we need you in your country
Speaker 1: because you know what's wrong with it.
Speaker 2: I think we've all heard of the jokes of like, oh,
Speaker 2: I should move to Canada whenever something bad happens, And
Speaker 2: I think like this is a moment where Francisco himself
Speaker 2: acknowledges his own privilege of being able to think about
Speaker 2: like I'm never going to come back, but it's through
Speaker 2: these conversations that he fully understands and grasps the reach
Speaker 2: and the power that the US has globally, and as
Speaker 2: a result, the importance of actually staying and working in
Speaker 2: his home country.
Speaker 1: And I think there was a deep sense of at
Speaker 1: the time of okay, that's fair. And it was really
Speaker 1: in organizing that I realized, oh my god, everyone is
Speaker 1: worth fighting for. There are peoples of Latin America in
Speaker 1: this country who are in the process of building power,
Speaker 1: who have been organizing for a long time in very
Speaker 1: difficult conditions and conditions you and I have not experienced.
Speaker 1: And then also realizing, look, look at all these white,
Speaker 1: black and brown people who are that I am one of,
Speaker 1: that have so much potential to fight and make things
Speaker 1: better for themselves, and that we all deserve better.
Speaker 2: Eager to find his place in the States, Francisco discovers
Speaker 2: something he really wants to be a part of a growing,
Speaker 2: people powered, working class centered movement. He writes a letter
Speaker 2: and soon enough is officially part of the Bernie Sanders
Speaker 2: campaign for President.
Speaker 1: I was formally trained as an organizer, and I started
Speaker 1: working for the twenty sixteen Bernie Sanders campaign in New Hampshire.
Speaker 1: We were told you will have no one out here
Speaker 1: to support you, essentially, and you have to build everything
Speaker 1: from scratch. I actually organized a group of volunteer organizers
Speaker 1: to build an effective electoral machine capable of getting Bernie
Speaker 1: Sanders to win the primary in the particular area I
Speaker 1: was assigned to. It will forever be one of my
Speaker 1: great privileges that I actually got.
Speaker 2: To do that you were in it every day, every moment.
Speaker 2: Is there a particular moment that stood out to you
Speaker 2: that was like, this is what I'm fighting for, this
Speaker 2: is the this is what gives me strength every day
Speaker 2: to keep going even against odds.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people in this country are
Speaker 1: told you can't do something, and they're reminded constantly in
Speaker 1: different ways that there are limitations on what you can
Speaker 1: or can't do. There's this particular moment in early September
Speaker 1: of twenty fifteen that a US Senator who went to
Speaker 1: a gala for the local Democratic Party in New Hampshire,
Speaker 1: and I introduced myself together with my supervisor. After I
Speaker 1: introduced myself as someone who's working for Bernie Sanders, he
Speaker 1: told me to my face, that's nice, but it's Hillary's turn.
Speaker 1: Hillary's going to win this primary, and I was so angry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Francisco felt like this people powered movement that he
Speaker 2: could feel building all around him was being totally dismissed,
Speaker 2: like it wasn't real, like it didn't matter. But against
Speaker 2: all the odds, this campaign proved the political establishment wrong.
Speaker 1: We won. We won in New Hampshire, and we won
Speaker 1: by a landslide. We proved that for a moment, someone
Speaker 1: who is based in working class people who said what
Speaker 1: the heck was going on and said what was wrong
Speaker 1: with the society, and said that inequality in our society,
Speaker 1: in racial injustice and white supremacy and patriarch are wrong,
Speaker 1: and that we need a fundamental change in the way
Speaker 1: our society is structured to at least try and address
Speaker 1: those things. Should be elected. Everyone slogging it through, going
Speaker 1: to door after door to door and being told we're
Speaker 1: not interested to then them changing their minds to growing
Speaker 1: a team to be billing an effective group of people
Speaker 1: who were highly disciplined and highly dedicated and saw their
Speaker 1: self interest as fundamentally tied to that election. Those are
Speaker 1: the moments that you fight for.
Speaker 2: In a moment, we'll hear how far he's come since
Speaker 2: he felt like giving up on the US, and how
Speaker 2: he maintains hope and energy in his work today. That's
Speaker 2: after the break.
Speaker 1: The idea of changing the world is not worthwhile, But
Speaker 1: one of the things that I think is worth considering
Speaker 1: is that you might be able to change your world
Speaker 1: and make it better.
Speaker 2: Stay with us, and we're back.
Speaker 1: What motivated me and what motivates me is I want
Speaker 1: to live in a world without bulliefs.
Speaker 2: Francisco has taken the painful moments in his life and
Speaker 2: used them to help him identify with others who have
Speaker 2: been bullied in different settings.
Speaker 1: And no matter the scale, I want to have what
Speaker 1: happened to me in high school not happen to anyone
Speaker 1: else because of arbitrary circumstances of my birth being the
Speaker 1: reason why they think I'm less worthwhile than they are.
Speaker 2: You know, something that comes up a lot in the
Speaker 2: season of When You're Invisible is being underestimated. Something that
Speaker 2: I admire about all our guests this season is that
Speaker 2: despite being underestimated, they all maintain their own self worth
Speaker 2: and they see the value in the people around them.
Speaker 2: And something that I love about my brother is that
Speaker 2: even when he's most underestimated. Francisco still believes in the
Speaker 2: power of the little.
Speaker 1: Guy, whether that you're a woman, whether you're queer, whether
Speaker 1: you're gender queer, whether you're black, whether you're poor and
Speaker 1: working class white people like you all know what it
Speaker 1: means to be told you're less than human. Any one
Speaker 1: of those groups might not be more than half of
Speaker 1: the population, but together all of those groups are.
Speaker 2: When you're told you can't do something, when you're struggling,
Speaker 2: when you feel unheard, the anger that bubbles up can
Speaker 2: actually change things.
Speaker 1: Anger is righteous, The anger is absolutely righteous. But who
Speaker 1: you choose to be angry with really does matter. Yeah,
Speaker 1: who you end up blaming for that problem is a
Speaker 1: huge issue. Right. For example, if you are a white
Speaker 1: person in this country, or a black person or whomever,
Speaker 1: and are told immigrants are the reason why you're not
Speaker 1: getting X, Y, and Z, you are being lied to
Speaker 1: by someone who has an interest in pitying you against
Speaker 1: the immigrants, because the person who is doing the lying
Speaker 1: is probably has something to gain from that division. Because
Speaker 1: that was true from before the founding of this country.
Speaker 1: The experience of Bacon's rebellion in the sixteen hundreds, poor
Speaker 1: whites and escaped slaves and free blacks banded together in
Speaker 1: Bacon's rebellion to fight against the Virginia Planter your class.
Speaker 1: It's this really beautiful moment. And then the planter class
Speaker 1: in Virginia literally having to write up a law codifying
Speaker 1: creating the idea of race itself. Yeah, to try and
Speaker 1: divide populations tells you a lot.
Speaker 2: And the opposite of succumbing to that division is coming together.
Speaker 1: There's something beautiful that all the greatest changes in the
Speaker 1: world have happened when a couple of people said this sucks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: two people saying together, this sucks. Let's do something about it.
Speaker 1: We all have an interest to fight together, and it
Speaker 1: is hard. Organizing is really difficult. But my fundamental theory
Speaker 1: is that if you can bring people together to work together,
Speaker 1: we can change our worlds and our experiences. And I
Speaker 1: think that is worthwhile. Will things be perfect, No, but
Speaker 1: things can get better.
Speaker 2: What would you say to people who feel like they
Speaker 2: can't do it, that they can't get involved, or that
Speaker 2: it's pointless, who have given up on this country?
Speaker 1: The idea of changing the world is not worthwhile. But
Speaker 1: one of the things that I think is worth considering
Speaker 1: is that you might be able to change your world
Speaker 1: and make it better. If you can talk to a
Speaker 1: coworker talk about what really sucks in their life, you
Speaker 1: can change You can change your world. Right, it's happening.
Speaker 2: What would you say to our listeners who are middle
Speaker 2: class up ammudal class.
Speaker 1: You are working class. If you work for your labor,
Speaker 1: you are workers and your fate is fundamentally tied to
Speaker 1: the workers beneath you, and you should treat them like
Speaker 1: human beings.
Speaker 2: Francisco isn't just emotionally attached to this. He also understands
Speaker 2: the research backing this way of living.
Speaker 1: There are studies that are coming out about the levels
Speaker 1: of poverty and how poverty changes and the levels of
Speaker 1: violence and how that changes in a community when more
Speaker 1: people in that community become unionized. Within the United States, Wow,
Speaker 1: and you win in union contract and you win union benefits,
Speaker 1: Like that's pretty incredible. That is an improvement in your
Speaker 1: life that is worthwhile. Is it hard? It is some
Speaker 1: of the hardest work you will ever do. The odds
Speaker 1: are definitely stacked against you, but the odds were stacked
Speaker 1: against so many other people. I'm interested in winning. Right,
Speaker 1: people have won.
Speaker 2: Every big win in history was not just made possible
Speaker 2: by the name we know in our history books, but
Speaker 2: by people like you and me helping to build that movement.
Speaker 2: It's important that we see ourselves, everyday people as part
Speaker 2: of history, and we've been building momentum for generations.
Speaker 1: Anyone who says that something can change really quickly in
Speaker 1: very short amount of time, it's probably lying to you.
Speaker 1: The only way that I've ever seen the world change
Speaker 1: for the better in a really deep way. Even the
Speaker 1: big things that the big politicians have done, is usually
Speaker 1: because they're scared of someone who has a lot of
Speaker 1: power below them, who's coming from below to the top.
Speaker 1: And I guess that's really what my politics are about,
Speaker 1: is start with the bottom. Let's go with the ranks
Speaker 1: of everyone. The Sovil Rights Act did not happen immediately, right.
Speaker 1: It wasn't because Lennon B. Johnson and JFK had a
Speaker 1: sudden switching their attitudes. It was because amazing organizers like
Speaker 1: Ella Baker and Bayard Rustin and Martin Luther King Junior
Speaker 1: and others around them whose names but most of us
Speaker 1: will never know, decided it was worth fighting for their rights,
Speaker 1: and they brought more people into it together, and they
Speaker 1: worked with other organizations to make it happen.
Speaker 2: Francisco has a ton of these examples that help inspire
Speaker 2: him in his day to day.
Speaker 1: You know the founding of the UAW in the nineteen thirties.
Speaker 2: The UAW is the United Auto Workers Union. You might
Speaker 2: know their name because they conducted a series of very
Speaker 2: successful strikes this past year negotiating a better contract, including
Speaker 2: better wages. The UAW was one of the first unions
Speaker 2: to do multi racial organizing when.
Speaker 1: They decided to sit down and these multinational immigrant communities
Speaker 1: who were working in these plants, right, everyone's, oh, they're
Speaker 1: all white. No, there are Italians, there were Swedes who
Speaker 1: did not speak the same language with each other, decided
Speaker 1: to coordinate together and do sit down strikes together.
Speaker 2: I love sitting with those tangible, real examples of when
Speaker 2: people have won. I think a common thing we think
Speaker 2: about when we're thinking about change is that we can try,
Speaker 2: And to me, it's refreshing to hear we can, must
Speaker 2: will and have one Like if someone's like, I've never
Speaker 2: met an organizer, but I'm interested in trying to fricking
Speaker 2: change my circumstances. Who would they go to.
Speaker 1: Organizing a union is I think the number one way
Speaker 1: that people can do big change in their workplaces. And
Speaker 1: you can reach out to a union by going to
Speaker 1: the afl CIO's website.
Speaker 2: The afl CIO is the largest group of unions in
Speaker 2: the US. Some other great organizations to check out our
Speaker 2: DSA aka Democratic Socialists of America, the Working Families Party,
Speaker 2: Make the Road, and there's so many others. Francisco's workplace,
Speaker 2: The Center for Popular Democracy has a whole list of
Speaker 2: amazing affiliates on their website. We'll throw links to some
Speaker 2: of these in our show notes. There's a lot that
Speaker 2: motivates Francisco. It's really inspiring, but he's had to build
Speaker 2: that up over time. He deeply connects with the people
Speaker 2: he works with, partially because they're There have been times
Speaker 2: when he's felt invisible, Like in his early twenties, before
Speaker 2: he became an organizer, I was.
Speaker 1: Had almost no support system, and it felt like everything
Speaker 1: I was doing was pointless because it was not being accepted,
Speaker 1: and felt like it was constantly being rejected and not
Speaker 1: being even supported.
Speaker 2: What I've noticed for my brother is organizing has not
Speaker 2: just been a journey of fully seeing the power of communities,
Speaker 2: but also realizing his own value.
Speaker 1: I'm lucky in a way because I in various stages
Speaker 1: of my life, I think I've been able to feel
Speaker 1: visible to a lot of people or at least some people,
Speaker 1: and made me feel like I was visible at least
Speaker 1: to someone.
Speaker 2: In some ways, I think He's learned to subvert the
Speaker 2: feeling of being invisible and turning it into something where
Speaker 2: he can find strength, into a way of being part
Speaker 2: of the collective. And in the collective we take turns
Speaker 2: being seen.
Speaker 1: Really amazing organizers and workers who are organizing that I
Speaker 1: get to work with and they get to lead the
Speaker 1: movements that belong to them that I get to help them.
Speaker 1: In my job, one of the things I love the
Speaker 1: most is getting to work with some of my colleagues
Speaker 1: and work very closely with these workers to help them
Speaker 1: develop their ideas into demands. And for me, that sometimes
Speaker 1: means I'm a little bit invisible as a facilitator, but
Speaker 1: it's a way in which I'm very grateful I get
Speaker 1: to be that way because this is about them, their interests,
Speaker 1: and their experiences.
Speaker 2: I think Francisco took this feeling of invisibility and our
Speaker 2: signature question and turned the way we look at this
Speaker 2: on its head. Something that I've been thinking about is
Speaker 2: also invisibility can be a superpower. It can be something good.
Speaker 2: It depends on how you view it. And the other thing,
Speaker 2: too is who's doing the viewing right.
Speaker 1: In some ways, I'm very great full to be invisible
Speaker 1: so that others may be visible a little bit better.
Speaker 2: Francisco's ultimate goal is to help others feel capable and
Speaker 2: help them enact the change they wish to see. No
Speaker 2: matter your role in a movement, it's tough and tiring work.
Speaker 2: You have to figure out what keeps you moving forward.
Speaker 2: How do you keep up energy and hope day to
Speaker 2: day or long term?
Speaker 1: I think you have to look at the right place
Speaker 1: to find hope. The national level is a pretty depressing
Speaker 1: thing to look at people's needs and the things that
Speaker 1: they understand to be really wrong or being totally ignored constantly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: on the national level is not really exciting, right, But
Speaker 1: my thought is that it is worth looking for the
Speaker 1: sites of hope outside of those places. Hope is about
Speaker 1: the belief that something can be different than it currently is,
Speaker 1: and that it is possible to change, and there is
Speaker 1: hope everywhere. There are hope in countless workplaces right now,
Speaker 1: all across the country where they're where workers are daring
Speaker 1: to say enough is enough. We deserve better, and we
Speaker 1: deserve to be treated like human beings, and we deserve
Speaker 1: to have at least some say in the conditions under
Speaker 1: which we work. That is hope. There are attempts at
Speaker 1: changing legislation on the state, city and county level in
Speaker 1: all sorts of places to make things better. There are
Speaker 1: campaigns in places like Philadelphia, that's where I live, people
Speaker 1: and workers are organizing for some basic anti retaliation protections
Speaker 1: and better workers' rights on the city level, and that's
Speaker 1: really awesome, and including domestic workers in those protections. There
Speaker 1: are gig workers in Seattle, Washington that want first of
Speaker 1: their kind rights to paid sick leave, to a basic
Speaker 1: minimum income. Those are victories. Things that you didn't that
Speaker 1: we didn't think we're going to be possible, are actually happening.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I think that's something that for me really does matter
Speaker 1: to really think about. Right. Hope is everyone or you
Speaker 1: just need to know where to look, and hope is
Speaker 1: a discipline. I think you need to be hopeful if
Speaker 1: you want to change your life, not just your life,
Speaker 1: but like people who you care about, your colleagues' lives,
Speaker 1: your family's life. You have to have that attitude.
Speaker 2: It was really important for me to start this season
Speaker 2: with a voice who inspires me to keep going, to
Speaker 2: be braver than I've possibly been before, and to hope.
Speaker 2: I want to take this moment and have us think
Speaker 2: about what we want. What do you wish could change,
Speaker 2: Whether you wish everyone in your community had a livable wage,
Speaker 2: whether you want to be able to save for retirement,
Speaker 2: whether you want clean parks, whether you wish your loved
Speaker 2: ones could have access to good and healthy food, or
Speaker 2: get to see a doctor without being terrified of the cost. Ultimately,
Speaker 2: this is the message that Francisco leaves us with.
Speaker 1: If you're listening to this, you are worth fighting for.
Speaker 1: You deserve twin.
Speaker 2: But was so beautiful is Throughout my conversations with people
Speaker 2: during this season of When You're Invisible, some things that
Speaker 2: just kept shining through were the ideas of building community,
Speaker 2: finding inner strength, and proving people wrong when they underestimate you.
Speaker 2: And I can't wait to share what we have in
Speaker 2: store this season. Next week, we are going to my
Speaker 2: high school We're going to meet an old friend of
Speaker 2: mine from Minnesota, someone who, despite being bubbly popular and
Speaker 2: active for most of high school, ended up becoming increasingly
Speaker 2: misunderstood because she was dealing with something beneath the surface
Speaker 2: that nobody could see.
Speaker 3: When it's really bad, it feels like a migraine in
Speaker 3: your whole body, and so much of it is like
Speaker 3: when you have a really bad nod in your shoulder,
Speaker 3: except it's in every muscle, like it's in all of
Speaker 3: the muscles.
Speaker 2: We'll talk about chronic pain, resilience, trust, and telling your
Speaker 2: story with art next Monday. Thank you so much for
Speaker 2: listening to When You're Invisible. Please leave us a rating
Speaker 2: and a review to let us know what you think.
Speaker 2: You can find this episode and future ones on the
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: When You're Invisible is a production of iHeart Podcasts and
Speaker 2: Mike Couldura podcast Network. I'm your creator and host Maria
Speaker 2: Fernanda Dies. Our story editor is Dylan Hoyer. This season
Speaker 2: was produced by Me, with additional production from Dylan Hoyer.
Speaker 2: Sound design and engineering by Laurence Stumf. Original theme music
Speaker 2: by Tony Bruno. Our executive producers are Anna Stump and
Speaker 2: Gisell Banzes, and special thanks to our lean Santana