1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:26,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello, I'm gonna see you. Okay, I'm hanging out 2 00:00:26,996 --> 00:00:28,996 Speaker 1: with my mom over Zoom today to take a trip 3 00:00:29,036 --> 00:00:32,836 Speaker 1: down television memory lane. Okay, I'm ready. Mom and I 4 00:00:32,876 --> 00:00:35,116 Speaker 1: are still huge fans of the TV shows I grew 5 00:00:35,156 --> 00:00:36,716 Speaker 1: up with when I was a kid. You watch a 6 00:00:36,756 --> 00:00:42,316 Speaker 1: lot of cartoons, you know, ThunderCats. We're also really into 7 00:00:42,396 --> 00:00:46,676 Speaker 1: live action superhero TV Buck Rogers, the Greatest American Hero, 8 00:00:47,076 --> 00:00:50,676 Speaker 1: and Linda Carter's Wonder Woman. But today we're watching the 9 00:00:50,716 --> 00:00:53,916 Speaker 1: one superhero show that caught my imagination the most Doctor 10 00:00:53,996 --> 00:00:58,516 Speaker 1: David ben scientist. That show was The Incredible Hulk, starring 11 00:00:58,556 --> 00:01:02,076 Speaker 1: Bill Bixby and eighties bodybuilder Loofer Igno. In the show, 12 00:01:02,156 --> 00:01:04,876 Speaker 1: scientist David Banner is accidentally exposed to a bunch of 13 00:01:04,916 --> 00:01:08,196 Speaker 1: gamma rays, which mess with his body's chemistry. Now, whenever 14 00:01:08,236 --> 00:01:11,716 Speaker 1: Banner gets angry or emotional, he experiences a terrible reaction 15 00:01:11,996 --> 00:01:15,236 Speaker 1: that transforms him from a normal, mild mannered researcher into 16 00:01:15,316 --> 00:01:19,956 Speaker 1: an enormous, muscular rage monster the Incredible Hulk. Oh and 17 00:01:20,036 --> 00:01:23,116 Speaker 1: somehow the whole intense emotions thing also makes him green. 18 00:01:27,636 --> 00:01:30,196 Speaker 1: Banner worries a lot about the emotional demon that lurks 19 00:01:30,196 --> 00:01:32,996 Speaker 1: inside him. He also spends a lot of time warning 20 00:01:32,996 --> 00:01:36,156 Speaker 1: people about the consequences of pissing him off. Don't make 21 00:01:36,156 --> 00:01:41,476 Speaker 1: me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. My 22 00:01:41,556 --> 00:01:43,956 Speaker 1: mom was fond of using the very same quote whenever 23 00:01:44,076 --> 00:01:45,756 Speaker 1: my little brother and I were on the verge of 24 00:01:45,756 --> 00:01:48,556 Speaker 1: annoying her. Don't make me angry, you would not like 25 00:01:48,756 --> 00:01:52,236 Speaker 1: me when I'm angry. I'm just surprised you remembered that. 26 00:01:52,316 --> 00:01:55,636 Speaker 1: I feel like you said a lot you guys calmed 27 00:01:55,636 --> 00:01:58,596 Speaker 1: down where I said it. Mary, You really did, You 28 00:01:58,716 --> 00:02:03,196 Speaker 1: really slowed down. I never actually had to get angry. 29 00:02:03,636 --> 00:02:06,476 Speaker 1: For a budding psychologist, the concept of an incredible hulk 30 00:02:06,596 --> 00:02:10,396 Speaker 1: was absolutely fascinating. It wasn't us that our powerful emotions 31 00:02:10,436 --> 00:02:13,396 Speaker 1: could unleash some inner lurking beast. It was that strong 32 00:02:13,436 --> 00:02:16,916 Speaker 1: feelings like anger could effectively turn anyone, even my own mom, 33 00:02:17,116 --> 00:02:20,716 Speaker 1: into an entirely different person. But is the idea of 34 00:02:20,756 --> 00:02:23,916 Speaker 1: an incredible help just a comic book metaphor, or is 35 00:02:23,916 --> 00:02:26,556 Speaker 1: there a real psychological sense in which we do become 36 00:02:26,596 --> 00:02:28,956 Speaker 1: different people when we're in the grip of anger or 37 00:02:28,996 --> 00:02:33,076 Speaker 1: other intense feelings like pain, hunger, anxiety, and embarrassment, and 38 00:02:33,116 --> 00:02:35,476 Speaker 1: if we do become strangers to ourselves when we're in 39 00:02:35,516 --> 00:02:38,196 Speaker 1: the grip of tough emotions, Are there strategies we can 40 00:02:38,276 --> 00:02:41,596 Speaker 1: use to develop more empathy for those anguished strangers? Are 41 00:02:41,596 --> 00:02:43,876 Speaker 1: there ways we can harness the rational side of our 42 00:02:43,916 --> 00:02:46,756 Speaker 1: inner David Banners to take better care of ourselves when 43 00:02:46,756 --> 00:02:52,596 Speaker 1: we emotionally help out. Our minds are constantly telling us 44 00:02:52,596 --> 00:02:54,436 Speaker 1: what to do to be happy. But what if our 45 00:02:54,436 --> 00:02:57,116 Speaker 1: minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying to us, 46 00:02:57,356 --> 00:02:59,796 Speaker 1: leading us away from what will really make us happy. 47 00:03:00,116 --> 00:03:02,316 Speaker 1: The good news is that understanding the science of the 48 00:03:02,356 --> 00:03:04,556 Speaker 1: mind can point us all back in the right direction. 49 00:03:04,956 --> 00:03:09,636 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie Santos. 50 00:03:14,396 --> 00:03:18,356 Speaker 1: When I was pregnant with my first child, I really 51 00:03:18,676 --> 00:03:23,116 Speaker 1: wanted to have the natural birth experience. This is author 52 00:03:23,156 --> 00:03:26,036 Speaker 1: Jemma Hartley. There was this tremendous pressure I had put 53 00:03:26,076 --> 00:03:29,916 Speaker 1: on myself to be a certain kind of mom, even 54 00:03:29,996 --> 00:03:33,276 Speaker 1: in the birthing room. Like many pregnant women, Gemma had 55 00:03:33,316 --> 00:03:35,956 Speaker 1: lots of ideas about what the painful process of childbirth 56 00:03:35,996 --> 00:03:38,516 Speaker 1: would be like. A lot of it had to do 57 00:03:38,636 --> 00:03:43,676 Speaker 1: with that romanticized view of what natural birth is, and 58 00:03:43,716 --> 00:03:46,556 Speaker 1: I like that idea of myself as someone who was 59 00:03:46,596 --> 00:03:51,796 Speaker 1: like this tough natural birthing mother. Gemma wanted to be 60 00:03:51,836 --> 00:03:54,556 Speaker 1: as prepared as possible for the birth experience she dreamed of. 61 00:03:54,836 --> 00:03:57,596 Speaker 1: She read books about unmedicated childbirth and followed lots of 62 00:03:57,596 --> 00:04:00,876 Speaker 1: bloggers who'd been through process naturally. This was like the 63 00:04:00,916 --> 00:04:03,636 Speaker 1: height of the mom blog. Then I followed a lot 64 00:04:03,676 --> 00:04:07,236 Speaker 1: of women who had these beautiful birth stories and pictures 65 00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:10,076 Speaker 1: of their home births and tubs, and I felt like 66 00:04:10,156 --> 00:04:13,836 Speaker 1: that was the type of womanhood I was aspiring too 67 00:04:14,356 --> 00:04:18,716 Speaker 1: in that first pregnancy, and things didn't go according to 68 00:04:18,796 --> 00:04:22,436 Speaker 1: plan with my first child at all. Jemma wound up 69 00:04:22,476 --> 00:04:25,116 Speaker 1: being induced soon after she arrived at the hospital without 70 00:04:25,116 --> 00:04:27,316 Speaker 1: getting much of a choice from her doctors, which led 71 00:04:27,356 --> 00:04:30,356 Speaker 1: to a whole host of additional medical interventions, including an 72 00:04:30,396 --> 00:04:35,116 Speaker 1: epidural and an episiotomy. I had a lot of anger 73 00:04:35,236 --> 00:04:37,396 Speaker 1: at myself. I had a lot of anger in general 74 00:04:37,636 --> 00:04:40,716 Speaker 1: around the experience, But I think the first person I 75 00:04:40,756 --> 00:04:44,036 Speaker 1: blamed was myself. Jemma was angry that she chose to 76 00:04:44,036 --> 00:04:45,836 Speaker 1: listen to her doctor in the heat of the moment. 77 00:04:46,036 --> 00:04:49,116 Speaker 1: I should have told that doctor, like absolutely not I 78 00:04:49,116 --> 00:04:52,756 Speaker 1: should have stayed the course. It didn't matter that most 79 00:04:52,796 --> 00:04:55,036 Speaker 1: people probably would have done the same thing Jemma did 80 00:04:55,076 --> 00:04:57,156 Speaker 1: and listened to the medical professionals if they were in 81 00:04:57,196 --> 00:05:00,476 Speaker 1: a scary, painful and uncertain situation. But that wasn't how 82 00:05:00,556 --> 00:05:03,596 Speaker 1: Jema viewed it. After the fact, I was really unkind 83 00:05:03,676 --> 00:05:07,396 Speaker 1: to myself in that way. I just blamed myself for 84 00:05:07,476 --> 00:05:10,716 Speaker 1: not being stronger in the moment while I was in 85 00:05:10,756 --> 00:05:13,116 Speaker 1: a lot of pain. So when Jemma found out she 86 00:05:13,156 --> 00:05:16,316 Speaker 1: was pregnant with her second child, she immediately began fantasizing 87 00:05:16,316 --> 00:05:19,716 Speaker 1: about how she could rectify that disappointing first birth experience. 88 00:05:20,356 --> 00:05:23,716 Speaker 1: Maybe there's a chance that I'm going to get the 89 00:05:23,796 --> 00:05:27,516 Speaker 1: kind of birth eye envisioned the first time around, And 90 00:05:27,556 --> 00:05:31,556 Speaker 1: then that also didn't happen. Jemma's experience with childbirth number 91 00:05:31,556 --> 00:05:33,716 Speaker 1: two was much better than the first time around, but 92 00:05:33,836 --> 00:05:36,276 Speaker 1: during the delivery, her medical team worried that she wasn't 93 00:05:36,276 --> 00:05:38,716 Speaker 1: progressing as fast as she should be. The doctors again 94 00:05:38,756 --> 00:05:42,196 Speaker 1: suggested inducing labor and an epidural, even though Jemma had 95 00:05:42,236 --> 00:05:45,156 Speaker 1: really hoped for an unmedicated birth before she went into labor. 96 00:05:45,316 --> 00:05:48,236 Speaker 1: She again decided to take the intervention, and so that 97 00:05:48,356 --> 00:05:52,836 Speaker 1: was still a difficult thing for me to process after 98 00:05:52,916 --> 00:05:56,236 Speaker 1: everything was done. When Jemma got pregnant with baby number three, 99 00:05:56,356 --> 00:05:58,396 Speaker 1: she held out hope that the third time would be 100 00:05:58,396 --> 00:06:01,156 Speaker 1: the charm. She found a midwife she trusted who'd be 101 00:06:01,196 --> 00:06:03,436 Speaker 1: there to advocate for her at the hospital, and even 102 00:06:03,516 --> 00:06:05,596 Speaker 1: joined a group of other pregnant women who'd made the 103 00:06:05,636 --> 00:06:08,956 Speaker 1: commitment to a natural labor. We were talking with a 104 00:06:09,156 --> 00:06:12,476 Speaker 1: group of three midwives every week about what our plans 105 00:06:12,516 --> 00:06:16,156 Speaker 1: were and kind of coming to this like group consensus 106 00:06:16,196 --> 00:06:21,316 Speaker 1: of what we wanted, and I felt really confident in 107 00:06:21,356 --> 00:06:24,676 Speaker 1: my ability to go through and have the birth experience 108 00:06:24,716 --> 00:06:27,436 Speaker 1: that I wanted with my third this time, when Jemma 109 00:06:27,436 --> 00:06:31,636 Speaker 1: went into labor, everything went as well as could possibly 110 00:06:31,676 --> 00:06:35,116 Speaker 1: be planned. She made it to the hospital with no complications. 111 00:06:35,676 --> 00:06:39,316 Speaker 1: My midwife was there, you know, within twenty minutes, and 112 00:06:39,436 --> 00:06:42,996 Speaker 1: she like lit candles and drew a bath for me 113 00:06:43,036 --> 00:06:45,676 Speaker 1: and was like, we're going to get through this. Jemma 114 00:06:45,716 --> 00:06:48,396 Speaker 1: progressed as expected. Her doctors didn't see a need for 115 00:06:48,436 --> 00:06:51,596 Speaker 1: an epidural or any medical interventions. Her dream of a 116 00:06:51,676 --> 00:06:56,756 Speaker 1: natural childbirth was mere moments away. You're at the finish line. 117 00:06:57,236 --> 00:07:00,716 Speaker 1: And I decided the pain was too much and I 118 00:07:00,796 --> 00:07:05,076 Speaker 1: requested an epidural, and my midwife was really like, are 119 00:07:05,156 --> 00:07:08,556 Speaker 1: you sure you just have to get through this last part. 120 00:07:09,316 --> 00:07:13,476 Speaker 1: We've talked about this for your whole pregnancy. But I 121 00:07:13,516 --> 00:07:18,156 Speaker 1: felt really clear in my decision. What mattered to Jemma 122 00:07:18,196 --> 00:07:19,836 Speaker 1: when she was in the worst pain of her life 123 00:07:20,036 --> 00:07:22,836 Speaker 1: wasn't the fantasy she'd had during her pregnancy. The only 124 00:07:22,876 --> 00:07:25,476 Speaker 1: thing she cared about then was reducing the pain so 125 00:07:25,516 --> 00:07:27,996 Speaker 1: that she could feel present for her final baby's birth. 126 00:07:28,556 --> 00:07:31,316 Speaker 1: That ended up being more important to me than having 127 00:07:31,356 --> 00:07:34,756 Speaker 1: the natural birth. Research shows that the switch and preferences 128 00:07:34,756 --> 00:07:37,796 Speaker 1: that Jemma experienced in the delivery room is strikingly common. 129 00:07:38,076 --> 00:07:40,796 Speaker 1: One study surveyed a group of pregnant women before, during, 130 00:07:40,796 --> 00:07:43,756 Speaker 1: and after they gave birth. Before and after labor, many 131 00:07:43,756 --> 00:07:46,956 Speaker 1: of the women shared Jemma's strong preference for an unmedicated birth. 132 00:07:47,236 --> 00:07:49,836 Speaker 1: They too, predicted that they'd stick to that choice even 133 00:07:49,836 --> 00:07:52,956 Speaker 1: in a moment of extreme pain, But during labor, nearly 134 00:07:52,996 --> 00:07:56,316 Speaker 1: all of their preferences switched. Like Gemma, many women wound 135 00:07:56,396 --> 00:07:59,796 Speaker 1: up requesting the very pain relief they'd sworn off minutes earlier, 136 00:08:00,076 --> 00:08:03,596 Speaker 1: and so I ended up getting the epidural at the 137 00:08:03,716 --> 00:08:06,996 Speaker 1: very last moment that they would let me. I was 138 00:08:07,036 --> 00:08:11,156 Speaker 1: not ready to go through that pain. Gema chronicled her 139 00:08:11,156 --> 00:08:13,756 Speaker 1: repeated changes of heart in an essay for the website 140 00:08:13,796 --> 00:08:17,676 Speaker 1: Romper entitled I wanted a natural childbirth, Then I changed 141 00:08:17,716 --> 00:08:20,836 Speaker 1: my mind. Writing the article was Jema's attempt to process 142 00:08:20,916 --> 00:08:23,036 Speaker 1: the sense of anger and blame she'd felt about her 143 00:08:23,036 --> 00:08:27,436 Speaker 1: decision with the first two pregnancies. I wanted that identity, 144 00:08:27,556 --> 00:08:30,156 Speaker 1: and I had already sort of claimed it for myself, 145 00:08:30,156 --> 00:08:32,636 Speaker 1: even though I hadn't done it yet, and so I 146 00:08:32,676 --> 00:08:36,076 Speaker 1: had to sort of shift my perspective on who I 147 00:08:36,276 --> 00:08:40,356 Speaker 1: was as a birthing person. What I find so fascinating 148 00:08:40,396 --> 00:08:42,956 Speaker 1: about Jema's story is that it shows just how bad 149 00:08:42,996 --> 00:08:45,236 Speaker 1: we are at understanding what we'll need when we're in 150 00:08:45,276 --> 00:08:47,636 Speaker 1: the grip of an intense emotion. We assume that we'll 151 00:08:47,676 --> 00:08:50,316 Speaker 1: be courageous when we're hit with extreme pain or column 152 00:08:50,356 --> 00:08:53,116 Speaker 1: in the midst of a terrifying situation, or stoic in 153 00:08:53,156 --> 00:08:55,916 Speaker 1: the face of a rage inducing event, and we often 154 00:08:55,956 --> 00:08:59,036 Speaker 1: beat ourselves up badly when we tap out, feel terrified, 155 00:08:59,236 --> 00:09:02,836 Speaker 1: or go full hulk in anger. It's so much easier 156 00:09:02,876 --> 00:09:07,236 Speaker 1: to find our inner critic than our inner cheerleader. You 157 00:09:07,316 --> 00:09:09,876 Speaker 1: truly feel like you're a different self moment to the next, 158 00:09:09,876 --> 00:09:13,396 Speaker 1: as driven by these really intense emotional or visceral states. 159 00:09:13,716 --> 00:09:18,116 Speaker 1: It's very challenging. This is psychologist Rachel written a second later. 160 00:09:18,156 --> 00:09:19,956 Speaker 1: It almost feels like you're dealing with a stranger, but 161 00:09:19,996 --> 00:09:23,076 Speaker 1: the stranger is yourself. It's just your emotional state. Two 162 00:09:23,156 --> 00:09:25,796 Speaker 1: minutes ago. Rachel knows just how hard it can be 163 00:09:25,916 --> 00:09:28,036 Speaker 1: to have empathy for yourself after you've been in the 164 00:09:28,036 --> 00:09:31,516 Speaker 1: grip of a tough emotional situation. When I was a kid, 165 00:09:31,756 --> 00:09:34,516 Speaker 1: I was just so into figure skating. It became such 166 00:09:34,516 --> 00:09:36,556 Speaker 1: a part of my life. It's basically all I did. 167 00:09:36,836 --> 00:09:39,596 Speaker 1: That was the career that I wanted, and as a 168 00:09:39,596 --> 00:09:42,436 Speaker 1: part of that, I had just had massive performance anxiety. 169 00:09:42,996 --> 00:09:46,356 Speaker 1: At skating practice, Rachel was the picture of poise and confidence, 170 00:09:46,516 --> 00:09:47,996 Speaker 1: but as soon as it was time for a big 171 00:09:48,036 --> 00:09:52,196 Speaker 1: meet or competition, everything changed. I would faint before competitions, 172 00:09:52,516 --> 00:09:54,996 Speaker 1: I would fully go down. As soon as the music 173 00:09:55,076 --> 00:09:58,996 Speaker 1: stopped and the performance was over, Rachel's anxiety completely disappeared. 174 00:09:59,196 --> 00:10:01,916 Speaker 1: We're talking like five to ten seconds after this is over. 175 00:10:02,356 --> 00:10:04,396 Speaker 1: Then I just had the sense of regret of why 176 00:10:04,476 --> 00:10:06,956 Speaker 1: did that go so poorly? And it just went so 177 00:10:07,076 --> 00:10:10,436 Speaker 1: quickly to just self critique, sort of like really intense 178 00:10:10,436 --> 00:10:14,756 Speaker 1: self loathing. Post competition, Rachel experienced the same frustration about 179 00:10:14,756 --> 00:10:17,956 Speaker 1: her behavior as author Deema Hartley experienced after taking those 180 00:10:17,956 --> 00:10:21,076 Speaker 1: epidurals to Rachel, that skater who was having a panic 181 00:10:21,116 --> 00:10:23,956 Speaker 1: attack seconds earlier was as much of a stranger as 182 00:10:23,956 --> 00:10:27,076 Speaker 1: the raging, incredible hulk was to mild Manner David Banner, 183 00:10:27,676 --> 00:10:29,916 Speaker 1: and then once the competition was coming again, I would 184 00:10:29,956 --> 00:10:33,436 Speaker 1: get it. Eventually, the constant choking under pressure forced the 185 00:10:33,476 --> 00:10:35,956 Speaker 1: budding skater to drop her dreams of turning pro but 186 00:10:35,996 --> 00:10:39,316 Speaker 1: the curiosity Rachel felt about her own affect of transformation 187 00:10:39,556 --> 00:10:42,236 Speaker 1: stuck with her and I think certainly has shaped my 188 00:10:42,356 --> 00:10:45,396 Speaker 1: interests to this day, this power of affect. Rachel is 189 00:10:45,396 --> 00:10:48,156 Speaker 1: now an assistant professor at the Rotman School of Management 190 00:10:48,196 --> 00:10:51,996 Speaker 1: at the University of Toronto. Since leaving competitive figure skating, 191 00:10:52,156 --> 00:10:55,396 Speaker 1: she's become an expert on the psychological bias known as 192 00:10:55,396 --> 00:10:59,516 Speaker 1: the hot cold empathy gap. So the empathy gap is 193 00:10:59,556 --> 00:11:03,916 Speaker 1: this broad tendency for people who are in emotional states 194 00:11:04,156 --> 00:11:07,236 Speaker 1: what are known as hot states, to fail to appreciate 195 00:11:07,396 --> 00:11:10,836 Speaker 1: what it will be like in an unemotional or cold state. 196 00:11:11,276 --> 00:11:14,036 Speaker 1: Study after study has shown that we have trouble comprehending 197 00:11:14,036 --> 00:11:17,716 Speaker 1: other people's hot states, their anxiety or anger, or sadness 198 00:11:17,796 --> 00:11:20,396 Speaker 1: or exhaustion, when we ourselves are in a not so 199 00:11:20,436 --> 00:11:24,436 Speaker 1: emotional cold state. For example, fit and healthy nurses routinely 200 00:11:24,476 --> 00:11:28,236 Speaker 1: undermedicate cancer patients experiencing the hot state of chronic pain. 201 00:11:28,636 --> 00:11:32,076 Speaker 1: Parents who aren't stressed about an upcoming test often underestimate 202 00:11:32,116 --> 00:11:35,596 Speaker 1: the academic anxieties their children feeld, And as one Irish 203 00:11:35,596 --> 00:11:38,556 Speaker 1: proverb eloquently put it, a full person has a hard 204 00:11:38,556 --> 00:11:41,756 Speaker 1: time understanding the needs of the hungry. It's kind of 205 00:11:41,796 --> 00:11:44,236 Speaker 1: hard to jump into the mind of someone else who's 206 00:11:44,276 --> 00:11:47,836 Speaker 1: experiencing something very different from what you are. Rachel wanted 207 00:11:47,876 --> 00:11:50,316 Speaker 1: to figure out why people have this hot cold empathy gap. 208 00:11:50,516 --> 00:11:52,716 Speaker 1: Her work started from the hypothesis that we find it 209 00:11:52,756 --> 00:11:55,356 Speaker 1: easiest to empathize with another person if we've had some 210 00:11:55,516 --> 00:11:58,276 Speaker 1: experience of the thing they're going through, and there are 211 00:11:58,276 --> 00:12:01,356 Speaker 1: findings to support that. If you put undergraduate students in 212 00:12:01,396 --> 00:12:04,236 Speaker 1: a wheelchair for a day, they're more likely to indicate 213 00:12:04,276 --> 00:12:07,276 Speaker 1: that they feel empathy toward someone else who is disabled. So, 214 00:12:07,316 --> 00:12:10,676 Speaker 1: of course shared experiences can help with empathy. And so 215 00:12:10,716 --> 00:12:12,876 Speaker 1: I think our intuition does come from a good place. 216 00:12:13,116 --> 00:12:15,716 Speaker 1: There's just real limits to it, and Rachel found that 217 00:12:15,756 --> 00:12:19,516 Speaker 1: the extent of these limits is rather surprising. In one study, 218 00:12:19,636 --> 00:12:22,196 Speaker 1: she tested whether being forced to endure a boring task 219 00:12:22,236 --> 00:12:25,316 Speaker 1: in the past would make subjects more empathic towards strangers 220 00:12:25,396 --> 00:12:28,596 Speaker 1: who are currently doing that task. She brought college students 221 00:12:28,596 --> 00:12:31,036 Speaker 1: into the lab and told them about a fictional subject, 222 00:12:31,516 --> 00:12:33,596 Speaker 1: let's call him Pat, who was asked to do an 223 00:12:33,596 --> 00:12:37,116 Speaker 1: onerous memory test that involved remembering long strings of numbers, 224 00:12:37,756 --> 00:12:40,196 Speaker 1: exactly the type of lab studies that undergrads don't want 225 00:12:40,196 --> 00:12:42,716 Speaker 1: to come in and do. Pat was really motivated to 226 00:12:42,756 --> 00:12:45,836 Speaker 1: finish this test, but he got too tired and flaked out. 227 00:12:46,636 --> 00:12:49,636 Speaker 1: The subjects were then asked to evaluate Pat. Did they 228 00:12:49,636 --> 00:12:52,756 Speaker 1: think he was competent and capable and so on. The 229 00:12:52,836 --> 00:12:55,836 Speaker 1: first group of participants had no personal experience doing the 230 00:12:55,876 --> 00:12:58,156 Speaker 1: tests that Pat had fluncked, but the second group of 231 00:12:58,156 --> 00:13:01,716 Speaker 1: subjects got to evaluate Pat immediately after doing twenty minutes 232 00:13:01,756 --> 00:13:04,836 Speaker 1: of the same boring test themselves. So these were people 233 00:13:04,836 --> 00:13:06,756 Speaker 1: who were really in the heat of it that they 234 00:13:06,836 --> 00:13:09,876 Speaker 1: understood the fatigue. A third group of subjects was also 235 00:13:09,956 --> 00:13:12,436 Speaker 1: asked to evaluate pat but they did so a full 236 00:13:12,476 --> 00:13:15,356 Speaker 1: week after they'd completed the boring task, when they'd had 237 00:13:15,396 --> 00:13:17,876 Speaker 1: plenty of time to recover from the hot state of exhaustion. 238 00:13:17,996 --> 00:13:21,356 Speaker 1: The most compassionate people were the ones who were fatigued themselves, 239 00:13:21,396 --> 00:13:23,796 Speaker 1: followed by those who had no experience. But the least 240 00:13:23,796 --> 00:13:26,476 Speaker 1: compassionate people of all were the ones who had done 241 00:13:26,476 --> 00:13:28,596 Speaker 1: the task themselves. But they had done it a week ago, 242 00:13:28,916 --> 00:13:31,996 Speaker 1: So it was something specifically about only not being in 243 00:13:32,036 --> 00:13:34,956 Speaker 1: the fatigue state anymore, but also having the knowledge that, well, 244 00:13:35,156 --> 00:13:36,836 Speaker 1: I did that task just a week ago, and I 245 00:13:36,956 --> 00:13:39,156 Speaker 1: managed to get through it myself. That seemed to be 246 00:13:39,196 --> 00:13:43,676 Speaker 1: particularly problematic for compassion. Our emotional empathy gaps, it seems, 247 00:13:43,836 --> 00:13:47,516 Speaker 1: are even more cavernous than researchers had expected. Rachel worries 248 00:13:47,556 --> 00:13:49,956 Speaker 1: that our inability to show compassion for the people who 249 00:13:49,996 --> 00:13:52,636 Speaker 1: need it most, even in cases where we've been there 250 00:13:52,676 --> 00:13:55,916 Speaker 1: and done that, could be hindering our happiness. Tons of 251 00:13:55,956 --> 00:13:58,116 Speaker 1: studies show that we get a well being boost from 252 00:13:58,156 --> 00:14:00,796 Speaker 1: helping others in need and taking care of the people 253 00:14:00,836 --> 00:14:03,156 Speaker 1: we love, but Rachel's were hints that we may be 254 00:14:03,236 --> 00:14:06,396 Speaker 1: significantly less motivated to provide that help when we're in 255 00:14:06,436 --> 00:14:09,596 Speaker 1: a cold state. But there's a second, and possible even 256 00:14:09,636 --> 00:14:12,796 Speaker 1: bigger worry for our happiness. If we're bad at understanding 257 00:14:12,836 --> 00:14:16,196 Speaker 1: other people's hot states and showing them compassion, are we 258 00:14:16,236 --> 00:14:18,716 Speaker 1: any better at being kind to ourselves when we cross 259 00:14:18,796 --> 00:14:22,556 Speaker 1: that hot coal boundary? I think an essential insight of 260 00:14:22,596 --> 00:14:24,556 Speaker 1: a lot of this research is that when you're not 261 00:14:24,636 --> 00:14:27,316 Speaker 1: in an emotional state, you just can't really grasp what 262 00:14:27,396 --> 00:14:37,756 Speaker 1: it's life. The Happiness lab will be right back. We 263 00:14:37,796 --> 00:14:40,556 Speaker 1: were on this bike trip and there was one day 264 00:14:40,596 --> 00:14:43,916 Speaker 1: that was just particularly gruling, and we kind of knew 265 00:14:43,956 --> 00:14:46,596 Speaker 1: it at the beginning of the day. Social psychologist Leaf 266 00:14:46,636 --> 00:14:49,236 Speaker 1: van Boven and George Lowenstein recently went on a hard 267 00:14:49,276 --> 00:14:52,476 Speaker 1: cycling trip together. Leif says that they're used to intense rides, 268 00:14:52,876 --> 00:14:55,436 Speaker 1: but even they knew that this particular day of biking, 269 00:14:55,556 --> 00:14:58,716 Speaker 1: which included an eleven hour trek entirely up hill, would 270 00:14:58,716 --> 00:15:02,116 Speaker 1: test their limits. About halfway through the day, we suddenly 271 00:15:02,156 --> 00:15:04,196 Speaker 1: just got desperate to get out of the situation, and 272 00:15:04,276 --> 00:15:06,236 Speaker 1: we were trying to get to the top of this 273 00:15:06,396 --> 00:15:08,396 Speaker 1: hill where we could make a call to someone to 274 00:15:08,436 --> 00:15:11,356 Speaker 1: come and pick us up. Even though Leaf and George 275 00:15:11,356 --> 00:15:13,956 Speaker 1: had fully committed to that tough route earlier that morning, 276 00:15:14,316 --> 00:15:16,756 Speaker 1: the pain and exhaustion they experienced in the moment were 277 00:15:16,836 --> 00:15:20,676 Speaker 1: just too much. Unfortunately, their desperate attempt to escape was 278 00:15:20,716 --> 00:15:23,876 Speaker 1: defeated by poor cell phone service. We were unable to 279 00:15:23,916 --> 00:15:27,196 Speaker 1: reach the person to come rescue us, and so we 280 00:15:27,236 --> 00:15:30,676 Speaker 1: had to do another twenty five miles and four thousand 281 00:15:30,796 --> 00:15:33,996 Speaker 1: foot assent, which almost seemed like it was going to 282 00:15:34,036 --> 00:15:37,516 Speaker 1: be impossible to do. But at the end of the day, 283 00:15:37,516 --> 00:15:41,156 Speaker 1: when we got into camp, we were all so relieved 284 00:15:41,156 --> 00:15:43,396 Speaker 1: that we hadn't been able to reach the person, because 285 00:15:43,396 --> 00:15:46,636 Speaker 1: we forgot the misery of those twenty five miles. It's 286 00:15:46,676 --> 00:15:49,756 Speaker 1: an interesting counterfact. Well, actually, if we had been successful 287 00:15:49,876 --> 00:15:52,356 Speaker 1: in getting a ride at that point, would we have 288 00:15:52,436 --> 00:15:55,236 Speaker 1: looked back and just felt just a little bit embarrassed 289 00:15:55,236 --> 00:15:57,676 Speaker 1: that we weren't able to actually pull it off and 290 00:15:57,796 --> 00:16:00,156 Speaker 1: ride the full distance? You know that we would have. 291 00:16:00,356 --> 00:16:03,396 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that we had no phone service at 292 00:16:03,396 --> 00:16:06,996 Speaker 1: that point. Even now, I am, like psychologist Rachel Rattan, 293 00:16:07,316 --> 00:16:09,916 Speaker 1: George and Leaf are interested in the mechanism underlying our 294 00:16:09,956 --> 00:16:13,276 Speaker 1: hot cold empathy gaps why we can't fully understand strong 295 00:16:13,316 --> 00:16:16,596 Speaker 1: emotional states like fear, or anger or exhaustion when we're 296 00:16:16,596 --> 00:16:20,196 Speaker 1: not experiencing that state ourselves. Their first hypothesis about the 297 00:16:20,236 --> 00:16:23,796 Speaker 1: processes underlying these gaps when something like this, when we 298 00:16:23,796 --> 00:16:25,876 Speaker 1: are trying to predict how other people are going to 299 00:16:25,916 --> 00:16:29,636 Speaker 1: respond to a particular situation, we first try to imagine 300 00:16:29,636 --> 00:16:32,236 Speaker 1: how would we respond in that situation, and then we 301 00:16:32,356 --> 00:16:34,916 Speaker 1: tried to make adjustments for the fact that the other 302 00:16:34,956 --> 00:16:38,916 Speaker 1: person is different from us. You might assume, as many 303 00:16:38,916 --> 00:16:42,196 Speaker 1: psychologists initially did, the empathy gaps occur because we don't 304 00:16:42,196 --> 00:16:44,756 Speaker 1: fully understand how other people are different from us, and 305 00:16:44,796 --> 00:16:46,716 Speaker 1: so we screw up that second part of the process. 306 00:16:46,876 --> 00:16:49,956 Speaker 1: We don't correctly adjust for how different other people really are. 307 00:16:50,596 --> 00:16:52,916 Speaker 1: But what we find is their big reason that you 308 00:16:52,956 --> 00:16:55,156 Speaker 1: get it wrong is because you get yourself from You 309 00:16:55,236 --> 00:16:57,676 Speaker 1: don't know how you would act if you got into 310 00:16:57,676 --> 00:17:00,436 Speaker 1: that situation. It turns out that we also show an 311 00:17:00,436 --> 00:17:03,836 Speaker 1: empathy gap for ourselves. Take for example, my favorite of 312 00:17:03,956 --> 00:17:06,436 Speaker 1: Leaf and Georgie's studies. Leaf and George would have loved 313 00:17:06,476 --> 00:17:09,076 Speaker 1: to have forced their subjects into super extreme hot states. 314 00:17:09,116 --> 00:17:12,196 Speaker 1: It's like reage or pain or starvation. But powerful states 315 00:17:12,236 --> 00:17:14,956 Speaker 1: like those are pretty hard to induce, at least ethically 316 00:17:15,036 --> 00:17:18,276 Speaker 1: in laboratory settings, so they focused instead on a feeling 317 00:17:18,276 --> 00:17:22,036 Speaker 1: that's both relatively common and reasonably achievable in a classroom. 318 00:17:22,556 --> 00:17:25,916 Speaker 1: Social embarrassment. If you just kind of imagine standing in 319 00:17:26,196 --> 00:17:29,116 Speaker 1: front of an audience and having to deliver an impromptu speech, 320 00:17:29,156 --> 00:17:31,756 Speaker 1: everyone understands that that's embarrassing that they might want to 321 00:17:31,756 --> 00:17:34,436 Speaker 1: get out of that situation. But Leaf and George didn't 322 00:17:34,476 --> 00:17:37,076 Speaker 1: just ask their subjects to give an impromptu speech. They 323 00:17:37,116 --> 00:17:39,356 Speaker 1: put students in a big group and told them that 324 00:17:39,396 --> 00:17:41,276 Speaker 1: they might soon be chosen to step up to the 325 00:17:41,276 --> 00:17:43,836 Speaker 1: front of the class and perform the best dance moves 326 00:17:43,876 --> 00:17:47,836 Speaker 1: they could to Rick James's nineteen eighty one song super Freak. 327 00:17:51,156 --> 00:17:55,636 Speaker 1: We chose super Freak because everybody knows super Freak Like. 328 00:17:55,716 --> 00:17:58,916 Speaker 1: It's probably an easily danceable song if someone were to 329 00:17:58,956 --> 00:18:02,316 Speaker 1: actually enjoy dancing in front of an audience, like, it's 330 00:18:02,396 --> 00:18:04,356 Speaker 1: very easy to put people in this state where they 331 00:18:04,396 --> 00:18:07,556 Speaker 1: can imagine exactly what's happening. We've removed all the mystery 332 00:18:07,836 --> 00:18:10,796 Speaker 1: of just a pure fact of the situation they're confronted with. 333 00:18:11,116 --> 00:18:14,116 Speaker 1: The remaining mystery is, how are you actually going to 334 00:18:14,196 --> 00:18:18,116 Speaker 1: respond if that's reality. Half of the students were told 335 00:18:18,116 --> 00:18:20,836 Speaker 1: to imagine, just hypothetically, what would it be like to 336 00:18:20,916 --> 00:18:23,436 Speaker 1: dance in front of the group. What's the smallest amount 337 00:18:23,476 --> 00:18:25,036 Speaker 1: of money we'd need to pay you to do that. 338 00:18:25,396 --> 00:18:28,396 Speaker 1: Most of people in the hypothetical condition, they were like, 339 00:18:28,436 --> 00:18:30,556 Speaker 1: I don't know, eight bucks or so. But the other 340 00:18:30,596 --> 00:18:33,196 Speaker 1: students were told that the dance off was not hypothetical, 341 00:18:33,596 --> 00:18:37,156 Speaker 1: it was actually happening very soon. Unlike subjects in the 342 00:18:37,236 --> 00:18:40,756 Speaker 1: hypothetical condition, these students were terrified that they might actually 343 00:18:40,756 --> 00:18:43,716 Speaker 1: be wiggling their butts on stage within the next thirty seconds. 344 00:18:44,036 --> 00:18:46,516 Speaker 1: They were feeling the heat of embarrassment, and their hot 345 00:18:46,556 --> 00:18:49,316 Speaker 1: state seals wanted to chicken out as quickly as possible. 346 00:18:49,676 --> 00:18:51,916 Speaker 1: Leaf than George found that students in this hot state 347 00:18:52,076 --> 00:18:54,916 Speaker 1: demanded over fifty bucks to get on stage, and some 348 00:18:54,996 --> 00:18:59,156 Speaker 1: students wanted way more. The surprisingly large number of people 349 00:18:59,236 --> 00:19:01,796 Speaker 1: said like a million dollars, Like they just wanted to 350 00:19:01,836 --> 00:19:04,356 Speaker 1: really drive that point home that there's no possible way 351 00:19:04,356 --> 00:19:07,116 Speaker 1: I'll ever do this when we're in a cold state. 352 00:19:07,156 --> 00:19:09,396 Speaker 1: We have the illusion that our hot state sells act 353 00:19:09,396 --> 00:19:12,036 Speaker 1: in ways that are confident and courageous that we'd be 354 00:19:12,076 --> 00:19:15,196 Speaker 1: totally willing to embarrass ourselves to earn eight bucks. But 355 00:19:15,276 --> 00:19:17,756 Speaker 1: when we're actually in that hot state, we suddenly want 356 00:19:17,756 --> 00:19:21,036 Speaker 1: to avoid discomfort as much as possible. The problem is 357 00:19:21,076 --> 00:19:24,036 Speaker 1: that our lion cold state minds don't realize that, so 358 00:19:24,076 --> 00:19:27,276 Speaker 1: they constantly put us in emotional situations that kind of suck. 359 00:19:27,636 --> 00:19:31,196 Speaker 1: As George knows all too well, there is a girl 360 00:19:31,236 --> 00:19:33,716 Speaker 1: I always had a crush on in high school. She 361 00:19:33,796 --> 00:19:36,476 Speaker 1: had your first name, Laurie. All of high school I 362 00:19:36,556 --> 00:19:38,756 Speaker 1: was tongue tied, like I never asked her out or 363 00:19:38,796 --> 00:19:42,756 Speaker 1: anything like that. Several years after graduation, George's mom, a professor, 364 00:19:42,956 --> 00:19:45,476 Speaker 1: called to share some news. Her son's high school crush 365 00:19:45,516 --> 00:19:49,556 Speaker 1: had enrolled in her new class, and I said, really, George, 366 00:19:49,556 --> 00:19:52,196 Speaker 1: figure he must have grown emotionally since high school. In 367 00:19:52,196 --> 00:19:54,996 Speaker 1: this cold state, he fully believed he wouldn't fall prey 368 00:19:55,036 --> 00:19:58,436 Speaker 1: to that dorky teenage anxiety. So George hatched a plan. 369 00:19:58,916 --> 00:20:01,276 Speaker 1: He'd head to his mom's classroom and wait for class 370 00:20:01,276 --> 00:20:04,316 Speaker 1: to end, and when Laurie walked out the door this time, 371 00:20:04,396 --> 00:20:08,156 Speaker 1: he'd finally be able to chat with her. And sure enough, 372 00:20:08,396 --> 00:20:11,716 Speaker 1: how it walks Laury just five minutes before. George had 373 00:20:11,716 --> 00:20:14,716 Speaker 1: predicted that he'd be completely smooth, that he'd finally talked 374 00:20:14,756 --> 00:20:18,356 Speaker 1: to his crush and overcome his adolescent shyness. But it 375 00:20:18,396 --> 00:20:21,716 Speaker 1: didn't pan out like that. I was instantly transported back 376 00:20:21,756 --> 00:20:24,876 Speaker 1: to those days. Tongue tied again, and she just walked 377 00:20:24,876 --> 00:20:27,116 Speaker 1: past and left the building. So I think a lot 378 00:20:27,156 --> 00:20:29,716 Speaker 1: of us have fantasies off we only we could go 379 00:20:29,796 --> 00:20:32,236 Speaker 1: back to high school, we'd be self brave, but we 380 00:20:32,236 --> 00:20:34,636 Speaker 1: wouldn't be We'd be exactly the same way that we were. 381 00:20:35,116 --> 00:20:37,876 Speaker 1: Experiences like these have convinced George and Leaf that comic 382 00:20:37,916 --> 00:20:40,716 Speaker 1: books like The Incredible Help are onto something important about 383 00:20:40,756 --> 00:20:43,796 Speaker 1: human nature. The idea that we are different people and 384 00:20:43,916 --> 00:20:46,516 Speaker 1: we're in different emotional states helps to understand why we 385 00:20:46,596 --> 00:20:50,716 Speaker 1: have so little perspective into our own feelings and behavior 386 00:20:50,716 --> 00:20:53,676 Speaker 1: when we are in a different state. This inability to 387 00:20:53,716 --> 00:20:55,836 Speaker 1: predict how we'll think or act in a hot state 388 00:20:56,036 --> 00:20:58,596 Speaker 1: often leaked to a huge hit on our happiness. There 389 00:20:58,596 --> 00:21:01,156 Speaker 1: are tons of situations in which we just set ourselves 390 00:21:01,196 --> 00:21:03,316 Speaker 1: up for failure, whether it's the pain of a tough 391 00:21:03,356 --> 00:21:05,556 Speaker 1: bike ride or the stress of a tough week at work, 392 00:21:05,796 --> 00:21:07,956 Speaker 1: or the sugary temptations that come when we try to 393 00:21:07,996 --> 00:21:11,356 Speaker 1: eat healthier often put ourselves into situations where, in the 394 00:21:11,396 --> 00:21:14,116 Speaker 1: grip of a hot state, we do things we hadn't expected. 395 00:21:14,516 --> 00:21:16,876 Speaker 1: We call a cat, or shout out our coworkers, or 396 00:21:16,876 --> 00:21:19,596 Speaker 1: grab a candy bar. Try as we might, we simply 397 00:21:19,636 --> 00:21:22,156 Speaker 1: can't predict the happiness needs we'll have in a hot state. 398 00:21:22,276 --> 00:21:24,956 Speaker 1: From the vantage point of a cold state, we also 399 00:21:25,036 --> 00:21:28,636 Speaker 1: get very very judgy, and the cold state you have 400 00:21:29,236 --> 00:21:32,196 Speaker 1: very little empathy for your hot state. We tend to 401 00:21:32,556 --> 00:21:36,596 Speaker 1: blame ourselves and hold ourselves much more accountable exactly because 402 00:21:36,596 --> 00:21:39,276 Speaker 1: of this empathy gap, because we don't really understand the 403 00:21:39,356 --> 00:21:43,396 Speaker 1: power of the emotions that we were operating under. And 404 00:21:43,436 --> 00:21:45,916 Speaker 1: as you can probably guess, the pain caused by all 405 00:21:45,916 --> 00:21:49,196 Speaker 1: this blame, guilt and judginess isn't great for our happiness. 406 00:21:49,756 --> 00:21:52,716 Speaker 1: The problem is we can't in retrospect then understand why 407 00:21:52,756 --> 00:21:55,396 Speaker 1: we fail to act, and so those moments end up 408 00:21:55,476 --> 00:21:57,396 Speaker 1: kind of haunting us as we look back on them. 409 00:21:58,076 --> 00:22:00,676 Speaker 1: So how can we deal with the anguish this haunting 410 00:22:00,716 --> 00:22:03,836 Speaker 1: can cause? Well, the science shows there are ways we 411 00:22:03,876 --> 00:22:06,676 Speaker 1: can be kinder to our helped out selves. If we're 412 00:22:06,676 --> 00:22:09,316 Speaker 1: willing to put in some introspective work. We'll learn more 413 00:22:09,316 --> 00:22:12,076 Speaker 1: about what those strategies are. When the Happiness Lab returns 414 00:22:12,156 --> 00:22:23,396 Speaker 1: from the break, my nerves would just get so bad. 415 00:22:23,476 --> 00:22:25,676 Speaker 1: I would start to just feel I would get covered 416 00:22:25,716 --> 00:22:28,396 Speaker 1: in cold streat. I would just feel a loss of 417 00:22:28,516 --> 00:22:31,516 Speaker 1: control of my body, and I would go down. Psychologist 418 00:22:31,556 --> 00:22:34,796 Speaker 1: and former competitive skater Rachel Return knows just how badly 419 00:22:34,836 --> 00:22:38,116 Speaker 1: hot emotional states like anxiety can affect us. All I 420 00:22:38,156 --> 00:22:40,276 Speaker 1: wanted to do is run away. Like if I could 421 00:22:40,276 --> 00:22:43,156 Speaker 1: have just shed my identity, gotten a new passport, it 422 00:22:43,236 --> 00:22:46,076 Speaker 1: left the country before some big competitions, I absolutely would 423 00:22:46,076 --> 00:22:48,876 Speaker 1: have done that. Rachel also knows the shame and judginess 424 00:22:48,876 --> 00:22:51,036 Speaker 1: that begins as soon as our hot states start to 425 00:22:51,076 --> 00:22:53,356 Speaker 1: cool off. I would just be like, why did I 426 00:22:53,436 --> 00:22:55,836 Speaker 1: do that? That doesn't make any sense. This is the 427 00:22:55,916 --> 00:22:58,796 Speaker 1: thing that I care about so deeply. These are three 428 00:22:58,836 --> 00:23:01,516 Speaker 1: to four minute performances. Why can't I put that aside 429 00:23:01,756 --> 00:23:05,876 Speaker 1: and just do this? And decades after performance anxiety ended 430 00:23:05,916 --> 00:23:08,956 Speaker 1: her skating career, Rachel still struggles with the way intense 431 00:23:09,276 --> 00:23:13,116 Speaker 1: states impact her performance. I've fainted during an academic talk. 432 00:23:13,236 --> 00:23:15,516 Speaker 1: So this is just something that's plagued me for a 433 00:23:15,556 --> 00:23:18,396 Speaker 1: long time, and it really drives this fascination with the 434 00:23:18,436 --> 00:23:20,676 Speaker 1: power of these states, and that's one of the reasons 435 00:23:20,756 --> 00:23:23,516 Speaker 1: Rachel's current research is focused on how we can reignite 436 00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:26,716 Speaker 1: the compassion that our cool, rational selves should be feeling 437 00:23:26,836 --> 00:23:30,076 Speaker 1: for our hot, emotional selves. The first step to minding 438 00:23:30,116 --> 00:23:32,956 Speaker 1: such empathy gaps, according to Rachel, is making sure that 439 00:23:32,996 --> 00:23:35,716 Speaker 1: our cold state selves remember that we have such gaps 440 00:23:35,716 --> 00:23:39,356 Speaker 1: in the first place. When you're not in an emotional 441 00:23:39,436 --> 00:23:43,356 Speaker 1: state at a given time, it's nearly impossible to understand 442 00:23:43,476 --> 00:23:46,796 Speaker 1: its effect on your behavior. We usually plan our lives 443 00:23:46,796 --> 00:23:49,396 Speaker 1: when we're in a calm, rational state, but we often 444 00:23:49,396 --> 00:23:53,076 Speaker 1: forget that more intense, emotionally charged situations could be lurking 445 00:23:53,236 --> 00:23:56,036 Speaker 1: right around the corner. There's just been so much research 446 00:23:56,116 --> 00:23:59,996 Speaker 1: on how whatever state we're in, just it feels like 447 00:24:00,076 --> 00:24:02,996 Speaker 1: the truth, Like it just feels like an accurate assessment 448 00:24:02,996 --> 00:24:05,876 Speaker 1: of reality, and I'll never not feel this right. This 449 00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:08,516 Speaker 1: prediction that will always feel as rational as we do 450 00:24:08,556 --> 00:24:11,236 Speaker 1: in a cold state gets us into trouble. We constantly 451 00:24:11,316 --> 00:24:15,156 Speaker 1: underestimate how emotionally vulnerable will be in certain situations, and 452 00:24:15,236 --> 00:24:18,556 Speaker 1: this leads to what Rachel's thesis, advisor Laura Nordgren called 453 00:24:18,676 --> 00:24:21,396 Speaker 1: the restraint byas when we're in a cold state, we 454 00:24:21,436 --> 00:24:24,116 Speaker 1: assume we'll have more willpower and emotional control and tough 455 00:24:24,156 --> 00:24:27,236 Speaker 1: situations than we actually do. This is one of the 456 00:24:27,436 --> 00:24:31,116 Speaker 1: really strong nuggets of wisdom in this idea that you 457 00:24:31,156 --> 00:24:33,156 Speaker 1: really truly don't have control and you just have to 458 00:24:33,196 --> 00:24:35,836 Speaker 1: internalize that message because you may feel great right now, 459 00:24:36,036 --> 00:24:38,596 Speaker 1: but if a craving takes hold of craving takes hold it, 460 00:24:38,636 --> 00:24:41,236 Speaker 1: you truly don't have as much control over that as 461 00:24:41,276 --> 00:24:44,396 Speaker 1: you think. Rachel thinks we should practice reminding ourselves that 462 00:24:44,436 --> 00:24:46,956 Speaker 1: we're going to be pretty powerless when a truly intense 463 00:24:46,996 --> 00:24:50,916 Speaker 1: emotion strikes. She likes to quote one AA mantra in particular, 464 00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:55,036 Speaker 1: the one is away from one's last shrink, the closer 465 00:24:55,076 --> 00:24:57,436 Speaker 1: one is to the next one, which is just the 466 00:24:57,516 --> 00:25:00,116 Speaker 1: farther you get from something that you actually get worse 467 00:25:00,156 --> 00:25:03,476 Speaker 1: at understanding it. But Rachel also has practical tips for 468 00:25:03,476 --> 00:25:05,796 Speaker 1: how to at least nudge ourselves closer to that kind 469 00:25:05,836 --> 00:25:10,116 Speaker 1: of understanding. One recommendation involves doing author and mother of 470 00:25:10,196 --> 00:25:13,796 Speaker 1: three Gemma Hartley did after her final childbirth experience. We 471 00:25:13,836 --> 00:25:16,436 Speaker 1: can write to ourselves about how we really felt when 472 00:25:16,436 --> 00:25:18,596 Speaker 1: we made a hot state decision. It's a trick that 473 00:25:18,676 --> 00:25:21,116 Speaker 1: Rachel has used a lot. I started to just write 474 00:25:21,196 --> 00:25:23,396 Speaker 1: down what's going on when I'm in a hot state, 475 00:25:23,716 --> 00:25:26,996 Speaker 1: just as a way to consult with the future cold self. 476 00:25:27,316 --> 00:25:29,716 Speaker 1: If you get terrified every time your friends drag you 477 00:25:29,756 --> 00:25:32,836 Speaker 1: on stage for karaoke, or enraged every time you hop 478 00:25:32,836 --> 00:25:35,356 Speaker 1: in your car to run errands during rush hour, grab 479 00:25:35,396 --> 00:25:36,916 Speaker 1: a pen when you're still in the grip of that 480 00:25:36,996 --> 00:25:39,836 Speaker 1: hot feeling and give your future cold state self a 481 00:25:39,876 --> 00:25:43,916 Speaker 1: little happiness advice. Just write down, like, don't do this again. 482 00:25:44,156 --> 00:25:46,316 Speaker 1: Your past self is going to communicate to a future 483 00:25:46,396 --> 00:25:49,596 Speaker 1: self from the stage, because you can't rely on the 484 00:25:49,636 --> 00:25:52,316 Speaker 1: idea that you're going to remember what that was. It's 485 00:25:52,356 --> 00:25:54,516 Speaker 1: just giving you a kind of a little sneak peek, 486 00:25:54,596 --> 00:25:57,196 Speaker 1: some slight access to how you actually might feel on 487 00:25:57,236 --> 00:26:01,596 Speaker 1: that state. Rachel also recommends what she calls anticipated re experience. 488 00:26:02,116 --> 00:26:04,196 Speaker 1: When you're in a cold state, take a few minutes 489 00:26:04,236 --> 00:26:07,036 Speaker 1: to carefully and vividly imagine what it would feel like 490 00:26:07,116 --> 00:26:10,556 Speaker 1: to re experience a past strong emotion, and go slowly 491 00:26:10,916 --> 00:26:13,596 Speaker 1: play out the emotional experience, almost like a movie in 492 00:26:13,636 --> 00:26:15,916 Speaker 1: your head in which you follow the steps of going 493 00:26:15,996 --> 00:26:18,676 Speaker 1: from a cold state into a hot state and then 494 00:26:18,796 --> 00:26:21,636 Speaker 1: acknowledge that the intense emotion of craving or anger or 495 00:26:21,636 --> 00:26:26,036 Speaker 1: anxiety you just simulated is probably lurking somewhere around the corner. 496 00:26:26,636 --> 00:26:28,396 Speaker 1: So if you tell people like, yeah, you've made it 497 00:26:28,396 --> 00:26:31,476 Speaker 1: out of this state or this difficult life experience, but 498 00:26:31,636 --> 00:26:34,396 Speaker 1: there's a chance that that might not always be true, 499 00:26:34,596 --> 00:26:37,476 Speaker 1: that's a surefire way to get people to at least 500 00:26:37,516 --> 00:26:40,916 Speaker 1: somewhat tap into that experience again. Rachel says that such 501 00:26:40,956 --> 00:26:43,716 Speaker 1: knowledge is power. She worries that we're prone to just 502 00:26:43,836 --> 00:26:46,156 Speaker 1: ignoring or shying away from the things we did when 503 00:26:46,156 --> 00:26:49,396 Speaker 1: we hulked out. I think people are so quick to 504 00:26:49,436 --> 00:26:52,556 Speaker 1: say that whatever was done in these emotional states is 505 00:26:52,596 --> 00:26:56,116 Speaker 1: not them. That's paradoxically not helpful because you're not learning 506 00:26:56,156 --> 00:26:58,516 Speaker 1: from it. It can be tough to take a cold, 507 00:26:58,956 --> 00:27:01,756 Speaker 1: no pun intended, hard look at how we behave when 508 00:27:01,756 --> 00:27:05,116 Speaker 1: we're angry or anxious or pissed or exhausted, But doing 509 00:27:05,116 --> 00:27:07,796 Speaker 1: so gives us critical information about the ups and downs 510 00:27:07,796 --> 00:27:10,636 Speaker 1: of our emotional life. If you're collecting data and you're 511 00:27:10,636 --> 00:27:13,916 Speaker 1: seeing the ebbs and flows, it's hard to completely distort 512 00:27:13,956 --> 00:27:18,196 Speaker 1: that information. Rachel's final tip is the hardest one. It 513 00:27:18,236 --> 00:27:21,516 Speaker 1: involves recognizing that will never truly be able to overcome 514 00:27:21,556 --> 00:27:24,356 Speaker 1: our empathy gap, and that basic feature of human nature 515 00:27:24,516 --> 00:27:28,116 Speaker 1: means unfortunately, our hot state selves will pretty much always 516 00:27:28,156 --> 00:27:30,756 Speaker 1: feel like a stranger. As a real challenge for us 517 00:27:30,756 --> 00:27:34,156 Speaker 1: to understand ourselves in this sense. Again, like I keep 518 00:27:34,156 --> 00:27:36,236 Speaker 1: coming back to the AA model, is it because I 519 00:27:36,276 --> 00:27:38,076 Speaker 1: think there's a real beauty to it, which is like, 520 00:27:38,076 --> 00:27:40,636 Speaker 1: at some point you have to just acknowledge the loss 521 00:27:40,676 --> 00:27:44,036 Speaker 1: of control and live your life that way. This final 522 00:27:44,076 --> 00:27:47,276 Speaker 1: piece of advice reminded me of something that psychologist George 523 00:27:47,316 --> 00:27:50,996 Speaker 1: Lowenstein shared when we spoke earlier. It isn't possible to 524 00:27:51,196 --> 00:27:54,236 Speaker 1: bridge the empathy gap itself, but George and his colleague 525 00:27:54,276 --> 00:27:56,596 Speaker 1: Leaf Fan Boven share Rachel's hope that if we can 526 00:27:56,636 --> 00:27:59,716 Speaker 1: just get our rational selves to remember that fact, it'll 527 00:27:59,756 --> 00:28:02,676 Speaker 1: help us better take care of our emotional selves. The 528 00:28:02,796 --> 00:28:04,836 Speaker 1: solution isn't just to sort of say you need to 529 00:28:04,836 --> 00:28:07,076 Speaker 1: be different, you need to kind of develop willpower, self 530 00:28:07,116 --> 00:28:09,436 Speaker 1: control and be a better person. It's how we think 531 00:28:09,436 --> 00:28:12,276 Speaker 1: about restructuring the situations on the context that you find 532 00:28:12,276 --> 00:28:15,116 Speaker 1: yourself in so that you are less often tempted, that 533 00:28:15,156 --> 00:28:17,836 Speaker 1: you're less often sort of pushed into this hot situation. 534 00:28:18,756 --> 00:28:21,476 Speaker 1: Like Rachel, Leaf and Georgie are optimistic that a better 535 00:28:21,516 --> 00:28:24,156 Speaker 1: understanding of the empathy gap could help our cold state 536 00:28:24,236 --> 00:28:27,116 Speaker 1: selves to become a little less judgy and perhaps even 537 00:28:27,116 --> 00:28:30,556 Speaker 1: more forgiving when we do holk out. There's a famous saying, 538 00:28:30,996 --> 00:28:34,156 Speaker 1: to explain is to forgive, and I think that to 539 00:28:34,316 --> 00:28:37,556 Speaker 1: some degree that is true when it comes to empathy gapps. 540 00:28:37,596 --> 00:28:41,396 Speaker 1: The more we can truly understand people's behavior, the more 541 00:28:41,396 --> 00:28:44,716 Speaker 1: sympathetic we would be. The hot cold empathy gap means 542 00:28:44,716 --> 00:28:47,396 Speaker 1: that we all have a misunderstood inner monster who's ready 543 00:28:47,396 --> 00:28:51,236 Speaker 1: to burst out whenever we experience intense emotions. It's not 544 00:28:51,316 --> 00:28:53,796 Speaker 1: just as David Banner says, that we don't like ourselves 545 00:28:53,836 --> 00:28:56,476 Speaker 1: when we're angry. It's more that we simply can't know 546 00:28:56,596 --> 00:28:59,556 Speaker 1: ourselves when we're in a hot state, even though our 547 00:28:59,636 --> 00:29:03,036 Speaker 1: lying cold state minds tell us otherwise. The science shows 548 00:29:03,036 --> 00:29:04,996 Speaker 1: that we can't fully grasp what it's like to be 549 00:29:05,036 --> 00:29:08,396 Speaker 1: in a hot state unless we're actually in it. There's 550 00:29:08,436 --> 00:29:11,076 Speaker 1: no way to cure or the incredible hulks lurking inside us, 551 00:29:11,556 --> 00:29:14,676 Speaker 1: but there are strategies to at least acknowledge those Hulks 552 00:29:14,916 --> 00:29:17,836 Speaker 1: and better plan for their arrival. And all the suggestions 553 00:29:17,876 --> 00:29:20,276 Speaker 1: you've heard today in this episode kind of fit with 554 00:29:20,316 --> 00:29:22,516 Speaker 1: what my mom and I learned watching my favorite TV 555 00:29:22,596 --> 00:29:28,436 Speaker 1: show back in the day, because what I loved most 556 00:29:28,476 --> 00:29:31,956 Speaker 1: about The Incredible Hulk is that researcher David Banner was 557 00:29:32,036 --> 00:29:35,396 Speaker 1: pretty good at following all this scientific advice. When the 558 00:29:35,436 --> 00:29:38,076 Speaker 1: series ended, Banner still hadn't found a cure for his 559 00:29:38,156 --> 00:29:42,036 Speaker 1: tragic metamorphosis, but he successfully lived his life in full 560 00:29:42,036 --> 00:29:45,396 Speaker 1: awareness of the rage monster inside him. He spent pretty 561 00:29:45,436 --> 00:29:48,036 Speaker 1: much every episode trying to make sure he didn't get 562 00:29:48,076 --> 00:29:50,556 Speaker 1: into situations that would cause him to hulk out. He 563 00:29:50,636 --> 00:29:53,556 Speaker 1: controlled his circumstances by admitting to those around him that 564 00:29:53,636 --> 00:29:56,636 Speaker 1: they needed to be careful about upsetting him. Banner didn't 565 00:29:56,676 --> 00:29:59,196 Speaker 1: go to AA, but he fully acknowledged the loss of 566 00:29:59,236 --> 00:30:02,076 Speaker 1: control that comes from being a human with an empathy gap, 567 00:30:02,436 --> 00:30:05,236 Speaker 1: and he really did try to be the best caretaker 568 00:30:05,236 --> 00:30:09,036 Speaker 1: he could for the fragile, yet rather muscular, emotional green 569 00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:12,196 Speaker 1: dude within. I hope your cold State selves will commit 570 00:30:12,236 --> 00:30:15,396 Speaker 1: to being nicer and more compassionate to your inner emotional hulks, 571 00:30:16,036 --> 00:30:18,196 Speaker 1: and I hope you'll return next week to check out 572 00:30:18,236 --> 00:30:21,556 Speaker 1: the next episode of The Happiness Lab with me Doctor 573 00:30:21,636 --> 00:30:30,476 Speaker 1: Laurie Santos. The Happiness Lab is co written and produced 574 00:30:30,516 --> 00:30:34,756 Speaker 1: by Ryan Dilley, Emily Ann Vollon and Courtney Guerino. Joseph 575 00:30:34,756 --> 00:30:38,036 Speaker 1: Friedman checked our facts. Our original music was composed by 576 00:30:38,156 --> 00:30:42,236 Speaker 1: Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing and mastering by Evan Viola. 577 00:30:43,156 --> 00:30:47,516 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Milabelle heather Thing, John Schnars, Carlie Migliori, 578 00:30:47,636 --> 00:30:52,596 Speaker 1: Christina Sullivan, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, Nicole Morano, Royston Preserve, 579 00:30:52,996 --> 00:30:56,916 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, and my agent, Ben Davis. The Happiness Lab 580 00:30:56,996 --> 00:30:59,596 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and me Doctor 581 00:30:59,676 --> 00:31:03,436 Speaker 1: Laurie Santos. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the 582 00:31:03,436 --> 00:31:07,436 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.