1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told you from how stupp 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: Christen and I'm Caroline. And Caroline, I'm so excited to 4 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: talk about the woman we're going to talk about today. 5 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: Me too. She has been on my mind all week, 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: ever since we started reading about her. I can't get 7 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: her out of my head. That just made me start 8 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: thinking of that Kylie Minogue song. But yes, you're right, 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: I know I can't stop thinking about her either. And 10 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: Polly Murray, who is this incredible trail blazer. But what's 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: so fascinating and heartbreaking and impressive all at the same 12 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: time about her story is that she managed to accomplish 13 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: so much in in a single lifetime and push against 14 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: standard and norms of her day. But she did it 15 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: all from this almost personal place, this drive that comes 16 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: from how she was raised, the environment she grew up in, 17 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: and the discrimination that she herself faced. Yeah, and I 18 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: first ran across her name, probably a few years ago now, 19 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: where she was simply cited as the first African American 20 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: episcopal priest. And when I saw the photo in the caption, 21 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: and I thought, oh, that seems really neat okay, and 22 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: then sort of put her out of my mind, And 23 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: then much more recently ran across an article talking about 24 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: this entire life that she had before she entered the 25 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: episcopal priesthood. And while her story doesn't begin in nineteen one, 26 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: I feel like that's a good place for us to 27 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: sort of kick off our conversation about her and her 28 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: life and her significance because she has a very close, 29 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: uh legal street bond to one of our faith's Ruth 30 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 1: bader Ginsburg. Yeah, and this is an excellent example of 31 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: a woman paying tribute and giving credit to one of 32 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: her predecessors, not just taking this woman's ideas and using 33 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,839 Speaker 1: them as her own, but really giving credit where credits due. 34 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: So well in the story also highlights to the disparity 35 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: between and Polly Murray's forgotten legacy and the an understandable 36 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: notoriety of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, partially due to her, you know, 37 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 1: being a Supreme Court justice. But in nineteen seventy one, 38 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: Ruth Bader Ginsburg argues on behalf of the A c. 39 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: L U, a landmark equal protection case Read v. Read. 40 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: And the quick background of this case was that, uh, 41 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: this couple that really wasn't together anymore. I think they 42 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 1: were estranged. Their adopted son died, and the father, according 43 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: to an Idaho state statute maintaining that males must be 44 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: preferred to females as administrators of the states, was automatically 45 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: granted their deceased son's estate. But Mrs Reed in this case, 46 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: UM wanted rights to the estate, and so they brought 47 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: this equal protection case UM that ended up going all 48 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: the way to the Supreme Court. And it was the 49 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: very first time that the Fourteenth Amendment equal protection clause 50 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: had been used to argue gender discrimination as unconstitutional as 51 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: opposed to racial discrimination. And so this whole case at 52 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: a legal precedent against gender discrimination purely out of administrative convenience. 53 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: So in this Idaho case, just being like, you know what, 54 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: We're just going to give it to the dudes. They 55 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: can have the rights, and we just don't even have 56 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,839 Speaker 1: to worry about this right. And Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who 57 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: at the time was an a c l U volunteer attorney, 58 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: in her legal brief, named two co authors who actually 59 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: didn't play a direct role in the case, and those 60 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: were Judge Dorothy Kenyon and the topic of today's episode, 61 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: and Polly Murray, who's Jane Crow, and the law legal 62 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: theory in the nineteen sixties pioneered this whole idea of 63 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: the equal Protection Clause applying to sex discrimination in the 64 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: same way as raised discrimination. And so Murray's entire motivation 65 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: for Jane Crow, which will get into more, is the 66 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: idea that it would not only protect black women hence 67 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: the Jane Crow that is, the you know, feminized version 68 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: of Jim Crow, but lift everybody up by bridging the 69 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: gap between civil rights and the women's movement. And if 70 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 1: that sounds a lot like intersectionality, it is, I mean 71 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: in so many ways, and Polly Murray is the godmother 72 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: of intersectionality. And also if this sounds a lot like 73 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:14,239 Speaker 1: Ruth Bader Ginsburg paying symbolic homage to amazing women, which 74 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: other guys who had relied on that legal theory of 75 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: Murray's as well in the past did not do, um, 76 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: it totally is. And it just makes me love Notorious 77 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: RBG even more. Yeah, well, so we need to now 78 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: dive into Polly's story. Yes, her name is Anne Paulina Murray, 79 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: but she opted together by the name Polly, So let's 80 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: dive into her complex and multifaceted past. So to kick 81 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: things off, why don't we reference her own description of herself, 82 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: which kind of gets at the internal struggles that drove 83 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: her public work. So, for instance, in a nineteen sixty 84 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: seven letter to the National Organization of Women, she wrote, 85 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: I hold the staff of multiple minorities. I can't allow 86 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: myself to be fragmented into negro at one time, woman 87 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: at another, or worker at another. I must find a 88 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: unifying principle in all of these movements to which I 89 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: can adhere. So from that we can hear that struggle 90 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: that she really wrestled with her entire life between all 91 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: of these identities and intersections that she embodied. She's African American, 92 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: she's a woman, she's a gender questioning person who is 93 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: attracted to women. Um she has experiences in poverty and 94 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 1: income instability. Um so. And she even in her younger years, 95 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: she gave names to her various identities of sorts. Yeah, 96 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: she had the crusader, the imp, and the dude, not 97 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: to mention the priest, which is an identity that came later. 98 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: But I mean, also, this is a woman who's an 99 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: incredible legal scholar. She's a feminist, a poet, a workers 100 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: rights activist, which her political leanings and her work for 101 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: labor rights actually tripped her up politically later in her 102 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: life a little bit. And of course, you know the 103 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: whole priest thing. She became an episcopal saint in she's 104 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: a saint. She's a saint. The more I've found out 105 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: about her, the more astonished and kind of upset I 106 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: got that I was only just now learning about her, right, 107 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: And I mean that's in a lot of the that 108 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: sentiment is in a lot of the articles that you 109 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: will read about Polly these days, because there is this 110 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: attitude of like, where have you been my whole life? 111 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: And she's always been there. She always was there, but 112 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: her legacy has for so long just been buried and 113 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: kind of forgotten. And so it's it's now that we're 114 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: starting to see more attention paid to just how important 115 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: she is to this country legal history. Well, and I 116 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: think that we are starting to recognize her more because 117 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: our society has finally caught up to up to her exactly. Yeah, 118 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: I mean, but in the meantime, while she was alive, 119 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: she was trailblazing left and right, I mean, stood aside, 120 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: she was the first woman of color to serve as 121 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: California's Deputy Attorney General. She was the first African American 122 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: to earn a doctorate from Yale, and the first black 123 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: female episcopal priest. So, I mean, we just talked about 124 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: how she's been sort of sidelined from history, and that 125 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: question of why comes up a lot in any kind 126 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: of scholarly writing about her, and clearly, as we'll explain more, 127 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 1: there is the issue of society just you know, being 128 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: too slow. I mean, she was a woman in so 129 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: many ways ahead of her time, but it was also 130 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: because she wasn't satisfied with only fighting for civil rights 131 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: or women's rights or labor rights. She wanted to bridge 132 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: all of the gaps. Yeah, well, she wanted to bridge 133 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: all of the gaps because they were all aspects of her. 134 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: I mean, she, like Kristen has said, really struggled early 135 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: on with bits and pieces of her identity which society 136 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: was telling her either weren't right or they were at 137 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: odds with each other. You know, she wrote in her autobiography, 138 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: in a world of black white opposites, I had no 139 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: place being neither very dark nor very fair. I was 140 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: a nobody without identity, so let's look at her childhood. 141 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: She was born in nineteen ten in Baltimore as Anna Paulina. 142 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: She was the fourth of six children to mother Agnes 143 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: Fitzgerald and father William Murray, but she was orphaned very early. 144 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: Her mom died when she was four, and at twelve, 145 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: her father was actually murdered by a guard at the 146 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: Crownsville State Hospital where he was a patient undergoing treatment 147 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: from major depression. Not after her mother died when she 148 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: was four, she was sent from Baltimore to Durham, North Carolina, 149 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: where she was raised largely by her maternal grandparents, who 150 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: encouraged her to be as educated and as exemplary as 151 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: possible for both racial and familial uplift. I mean, this 152 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: is a family of middle class African Americans living in 153 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: the Jim Crow South um, so that's where the idea 154 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: and the need for that racial uplift comes from. And 155 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: in terms of familial uplift, her maternal grandmother, who was 156 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: helping raise her Cornelia, was born a slave, and Cornelia's 157 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: mother was also a slave who was raped by her 158 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: white slave owner. So her grandmother was actually raised by 159 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: both her paternal aunt and owner right, and so that 160 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: side of the family tree is something that Polly really 161 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: struggles with in her autobiography, where she talks a lot 162 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: about the genealogical process of going back through a family 163 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: history and how it puts so much of herself and 164 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: her family into the context of the time. She really 165 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: had to come face to face with those ugly facts 166 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: that she talks about how a lot of African American 167 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: families at the time weren't willing or ready or very 168 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 1: eager to sort of dive back into that's that's an 169 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: open wound, it's a lot of pain. And so she 170 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: talks about how she had to come face to face 171 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: to that with that because just as she had been 172 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,719 Speaker 1: so proud and ready to accept the branch of the 173 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: family tree that we're freedman her one of her grandfather's, 174 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,839 Speaker 1: for instance, was emancipated and then fought for the union. Yeah, 175 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: and she had a really strong attachment to her grandparents um, 176 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: but tragically, again it was like she was orphaned a 177 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: second time because both of her grandparents by the time 178 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: she was thirteen, and she kind of considered that the 179 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: end of her childhood. I mean, Polly grew up very fast. 180 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: It seems like, well, she went to live with her aunt, 181 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,239 Speaker 1: who was her namesake, and this is the aunt who 182 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: she credits so much. Yes, she found so much inspiration 183 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: in her all of her grandparents and great grandparents, but 184 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: it was her aunt who she says, really encouraged her 185 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: to be herself and be sort of fulfill her destiny 186 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: as the amazing child that she was. Yeah, And the 187 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: first step along the way to fulfilling her destiny and 188 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: she really did have a sense of destiny, was attending 189 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: Hunter College. So she heads up to New York in 190 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: nine and she graduates in nineteen thirty three, and college 191 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: is incredibly difficult for her financially. I mean, she's struggling 192 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: to make ends meet to the point that she suffers 193 00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 1: malnutrition and like the illness that she and during college 194 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: because she's so poor and can't feed herself very well. 195 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: I mean, it kind of haunts her for the rest 196 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 1: of her life. It leaves her rather frail, although you 197 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: would not know it by the legacy that she leaves 198 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: behind um. But after graduation, she finally finds some teaching 199 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: work with the Works Progress Administration and as an activist 200 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: for the Workers Defense League. But it's this whole time 201 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,199 Speaker 1: that she's also questioning both her gender identity and her 202 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: sexual orientation. She really struggled with feeling like she was 203 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: a man trapped in a woman's body her words, but 204 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: also struggling with this attraction to feminine women. She wrote 205 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: to her doctors saying, I've got to find a solution, 206 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: like I don't know why I feel this attraction, because 207 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: you've also got to keep in mind at the time 208 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: that being gay was considered a psychiatric disorder. Yeah, and 209 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: in a no to her doctor that she wrote in seven, 210 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:07,719 Speaker 1: she said, why do I desire monogamous married life as 211 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 1: a completion? Because she's you know, she's struggling with her 212 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: same sex attraction to women, but at the same time, 213 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: because of that desire to succeed professionally but also have 214 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: the quote unquote normal family life was something that was 215 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: also very much ingrained in her and very important to her. 216 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: Clearly a point of personal conflict for her, and I 217 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: think it's important as um. There was one academic we're 218 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: reading who pointed out that while today she might have 219 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: identified as transgender or a lesbian, she never labeled herself 220 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: as such back then. I mean, well, for one, reason 221 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: the term transgender didn't even exist in the nineteen thirties. UM. 222 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: But she she knew that something was up and she 223 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: really wanted a biological explanation for it. UM. In her 224 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: twenties and thirties, she was really enamored with new research 225 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: on hormones and glands and part of why she was 226 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: so compelled. UM and and even at one point requested 227 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: an exploratory surgery to see if she had a male 228 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: genitalia like secreted inside of her. As she put it, 229 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: was because of the specter of mental illness within her family. 230 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: I mean you have like you mentioned, Caroline, at the time, 231 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: homosexuality was considered a psychiatric disorder and that was terrifying 232 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: for her, considering how her dad was murdered when he 233 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: was in a psychiatric hospital, and there had been other 234 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: mental health issues in her family. Yeah, and so she 235 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: did seek both psychiatric and hormonal treatment, but doctors refused 236 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: to give her male hormones, simply telling her to conform 237 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: to female expectations. U. UM, that doesn't mean she didn't experiment. 238 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: She there's lots of pictures of her, and she talks 239 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: about how she explored gender identity and presentation particularly in 240 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: her younger years in her twenties and thirties, by wearing 241 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: men's clothing. And this is around the time when she 242 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: also opts to start going by the name Polly instead 243 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: of Anne. Yeah. And if we look back at her 244 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: one autobiographical photo album, The Life and Times of an 245 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: American called Polly Murray, Um, the image of the dude 246 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: is clearly the uh, the identity within her that's questioning 247 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: gender and what it means and how it applies to her. 248 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: And she in one of the photos she has sort 249 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: of she has men's clothes on and a men's style, 250 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: hey do um. But you can see as she goes 251 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: to law school and her legal career picks up in 252 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: public profile increases, you see her dressed in more traditionally 253 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: feminine ways. Yeah. I think there there's one picture that 254 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: we saw of her, was it from law school or after? 255 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: Where it's one of those like very old school, you know, 256 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: from the side kind of pictures where she's looking off 257 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: into the distance and the caption on the back of 258 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: the photo was first and last up swept hair do 259 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: So I mean, I you know, she kind of like 260 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: those doctors when she was in her twenties and thirties, said, 261 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: you know, they told her to conform to female expectations. 262 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: I think she did feel like she had to for 263 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: a lot of her early public presentation and persona. You know, 264 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: you you see her exclusively in dresses in those early years, 265 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: especially like in pictures where she's with Betty for Dan 266 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: in a picture with the early founding staff of Now 267 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: and in law school, she's wearing all of those dresses 268 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 1: and those hair dues. But as you get old, as 269 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: she gets older, I should say, uh, you start to 270 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: see her, Oh yeah, this is the woman who said 271 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: she prefers pants to dresses. Like, you start to see 272 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: hers almost just sort of start to look more like herself. Well, 273 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: and there was one anecdote from when she was in 274 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: the priesthood of her being delighted that she would sometimes 275 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: get mistaken for a guy, partly because she had short, 276 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 1: cropped hair and glasses and she even had rocked a 277 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 1: little lady mustache in her old age, and obviously, like 278 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 1: priestly clothes are gender ambiguous, and being the first female 279 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: priests would kind of just expect it to be a guy. 280 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: And she was like, oh, I loved it. Yeah, Well, 281 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: because yeah. I mean, like you said, transgender wasn't a 282 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 1: term in use yet, but I'm sure it must have 283 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: felt great for someone to look at you and identify 284 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: you as the way that you and I know, not 285 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: that I want to put words in anyone's mouth, but 286 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: the way that you have felt inside. Yeah, I'm but 287 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: I I well. And I also think it's interesting that 288 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: part of her concern over how she felt was not 289 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: just her attraction to women and her discomfort in uh 290 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 1: with feminine gendered clothing, but also she felt like her 291 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: ambition and drive was also highly masculine, in a sign 292 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: that something wasn't entirely right and part of why she 293 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: wanted to fight for women's rights because she was like, oh, 294 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: I can't this womanhood is is holding me back. Like 295 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: I know I'm a woman, but I don't feel like 296 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: I I should be because of all of this stuff 297 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: that I want to accomplish. Yeah, so many layers to 298 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: gender identity. Who's surprised, No, No one well. And she 299 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: carried on though open romantic relationships though with a number 300 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: of women um and in her later life she forged 301 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: a seventeen year relationship with a woman named Irene Barlow 302 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: whom she met at a law firm in nineteen fifty 303 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: six and it lasted until Barlow's death, and they're buried 304 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: under the same headstone in New York. Yeah, yeah, I 305 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 1: think she because I think when Barlow died at the time, UM, 306 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: Polly was teaching at brand Ice and she ended up 307 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: leaving her position because she was so heartbroken that she 308 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: felt like I can't I can't go on. But then 309 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: in her posthumously published autobiography Song and a Weary Throat, 310 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: there's no mention whatsoever of same sex relationships. So clearly 311 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: there are lots of intersections happening within this one person 312 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: and in the next phase of her life and career. 313 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 1: Because we're going to get into this is when we 314 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: see all of her brain power then being applied to 315 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: all of her identities and struggles and how she applied 316 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 1: that to empowering marginalized groups. And we're going to get 317 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: into that when we come right back from a quick break. 318 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: So there's one big thing that Pauly Murray understood ahead 319 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: of her time was now discrimination cuts across identities, um 320 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: and and we might take that so for granted today, 321 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: but that was a revolutionary concept, not so long ago 322 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: um and, speaking to The Washington Post in nineteen seven, 323 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: Pouli said, this society is not hospitable to persons of color, 324 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: women or left handed people. Ain't that the truth? Congress, Well, listen, 325 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: as a lefty, I agree, And well, I do appreciate 326 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: her humor. That should not indicate that she was anything 327 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: other than deadly serious about the discrimination that she and 328 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: others around her were facing. Uh, In, let's let's just 329 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: go through basically the history of what she overcame that 330 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: ended up contributing to the person that she Well, I 331 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: want to say the person that she became, but I mean, 332 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: she already was this person, she was this fighter. So 333 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: we've got to give this backstory though, so you know 334 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: exactly what she went through. She was denied graduate school 335 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: admission at u NC Chapel Hill because of her race, 336 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: and she knew this was wrong. She knew this was ridiculous. 337 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: She knew she was up against a discriminatory machine. So 338 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: she launched a letter writing campaign that attracted the attention 339 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: and the friendship of one Eleanor Roosevelt, and she actually, 340 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 1: through correspondence with Eleanor, became a personal advisor to her 341 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: on civil and human rights issues. Well, the UNC president 342 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: at the time knew Murray was qualified enough to gain entrance, 343 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: and he even consulted the U. S. Senate on this. 344 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: I mean, and this is incredible to me. Already at 345 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: this point in her life, she's like, oh, like sounding 346 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: the alarm all the way up to the White House. UM. 347 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: And later in life though, when UNC Chapel Hill tries 348 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: to grant her an honorary degree, Murray says, oh, no, 349 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: things stuck to her guns, that woman did. But the 350 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: thing is like, that's y eight. I feel like this 351 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: sounds like, oh, yeah, of course, something like that must 352 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: have happened in the sixties, people pushing back against UH 353 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: segregation and racism and discrimination. This is this woman's ahead 354 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: of her time. She's also ahead of her time because 355 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty, fifteen years before Rosa Parks in Montgomery, Alabama, 356 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: Polly and her lady friend Adeline mcbreen were arrest did 357 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 1: in Virginia for refusing to move to the back of 358 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: a Greyhound bus. And so what possibly contributed to this 359 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: contentious UH conflict scenario was the fact that she was 360 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: actually dressed in men's clothes at the time and Uh, 361 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: that could have contributed to antagonizing the police toward her. Yeah, 362 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: there was a headline though from the time reporting on 363 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: the incident it was Jim crow bus dispute leads to 364 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: girls arrest, and the news article describes her as a 365 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: honey tongued legal mind. Don't mess with her, I mean, 366 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: even then, honeytongue legal mind. In the same year, her 367 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: honey tongue legal mind was hired by the Workers Defense 368 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 1: League to pardon a black sharecropper who was convicted of murder, 369 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: and she returns to Virginia to raise money and meets 370 00:24:54,960 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: prominent civil rights lawyers, which inspires her to start Howard 371 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: Law School with the aspiration of becoming an inn double 372 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: a CP lawyer. So she starts law school in n one, 373 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: but law school going to Howard, where race is no 374 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: longer the discriminatory issue sex discrimination comes to the forefront. Yeah, 375 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: it's during this time that she coins that term Jane 376 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: Crow to describe her experience of the double race and 377 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: sex based discrimination, and one source we read described it 378 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: as a theory born from her own struggles with categories 379 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: that seem to do violence to Murray's own sense of self. 380 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: Sometimes black and white, but far more often men and women. 381 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: And she's still active in civil rights protests. It's during 382 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: these years at Howard that she also participates in silent 383 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: demonstrations and sit ins at a Washington, d c. Cafeteria. Again, 384 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: keep in mind, as woman's ahead of her time. It's 385 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: the forties. I feel like school children today tend to 386 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: think of the civil rights movement as like a sixties thing. Yeah, 387 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: And and her graduating thesis from Howard was titled to 388 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: the civil Rights cases and PLUSY be overruled. And she's 389 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: referring to plus C v. Ferguson the case which upheld 390 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: separate but equal, and she's arguing obviously that plus C 391 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: should be overturned. This is ten years before Brown versus 392 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: the Board of Education case would overturn that separate but 393 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: equal clause. But when Polly first suggests this, all the 394 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 1: guys in her class laughed at her. She described it 395 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: as hoots of derisive laughter. But Polly would get the 396 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: last laugh sort of when Brown v. Board of Education 397 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: took place because n Double a CP Chief Counsel third 398 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: Good Marshal, used Murray's thesis as a strategic guide to 399 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: argue the case But the thing is all of this 400 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: was unbeknownst to Murray for years because he never gave 401 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: her credit for it. M Like, come on, man, come on, 402 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: they're good. We could all stand to learn a little 403 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: something from RBG. I know Ruth Bader Ginsburg hashtag shine 404 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: theory knows how to attribute. So uh. Polly graduates as 405 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: the valedictorian of her Howard University class, naturally, which typically 406 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: would have parlayed into a scholarship to get a Masters 407 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: in law at Harvard. However, she was not a man. Yeah, 408 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: so Harvard Admissions wrote back to Polly saying, quote, your 409 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: picture and the salutation on your college transcript indicate that 410 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: you were not of the sex entitled to be admitted 411 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: to Harvard Law School. Come on a drag. And and 412 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: here's the whole Jane Crow thing too coming into play, 413 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: because she writes about how her male civil rights comrade 414 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: really sympathized with her race based U n C rejection 415 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: years earlier, but when it came to her being rejected 416 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: by Harvard, they were simply amused at the idea that 417 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: she wanted to go there anyway. So there was none 418 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,959 Speaker 1: of that support, that community support rallying around her for 419 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: for this particular rejection, it was more of like a oh, 420 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: you silly woman. Well, that silly woman decided to take 421 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 1: herself to get her Master's of Law degree at UC 422 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: Berkeley instead, and she graduated in and then became the 423 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: state's first black Deputy Attorney general. A few years later, 424 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: she pens the State's Laws on Race and Colors, which 425 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: was a compilation of all race related state level laws. 426 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: And this might sound like an insignificant detail. Why are 427 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: you telling us about this directory that this woman wrote, essentially, Well, 428 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: because yet again she is writing what would essentially become 429 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: no own as the Bible of civil rights law. Yeah, exactly. 430 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: She had compiled it at the request of the Methodist 431 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: Churches Women's Division, which I love. I'm like, who, but 432 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: uh so, working very closely with women from a church, 433 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: and it just became this critical piece of writing for 434 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people. Yeah, I mean, and just again 435 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: and again and again. She's laying all of this legal foundation, 436 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: doing all of this leg work for these you know, 437 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: landmark cases and desegregation that will happen many years later. Well, yeah, 438 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: I mean she but all of this is driven by 439 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: her her personal convictions. I mean, she writes about how 440 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: segregation places a badge of inferiority on black children, and 441 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: and so it was it was looking into her past, 442 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: seeing her own and experiences with discrimination, and and looking 443 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: at the community around her that drove her to try 444 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: to make this world a better place well, and also 445 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: to going back to her family tree, that duality of 446 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: blackness and also the violent whiteness that was in there 447 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: with um, you know, the rape of her great grandmother Um. 448 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: And she spends a lot of time after nineteen fifty one, 449 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: she spends four years actually going back to North Carolina 450 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: and researching all about her family, and she ends up 451 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: publishing sort of like a familial autobiography called Proud Shoes, 452 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: The Story of an American Family. And Caroline, I gotta 453 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: say this reminded me a lot of you, because genealogy 454 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: is a hobby of yours. Oh my god, I know 455 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: I've lost so much sleep since the holidays because I've 456 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: been on a total family research kick. But did you 457 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: feel at least a little bonda to Well? I did. 458 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: I did, because um, just her passion for it and 459 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: and seeing her give voice to a lot of the 460 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: same things that I feel in terms of the importance 461 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: of kind of figuring out where you come from, because 462 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: it's no small, it's no small and significant thing to 463 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: figure out who your people were. She writes, the conviction 464 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: grew in me that one of the best ways to 465 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: incorporate social and political history into one's experience is to 466 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: embark on a search into one's family history. These ancient 467 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: documents spoke to me of a common humanity and narrowed 468 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: the distances between races, classes, and political positions. And I mean, 469 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: this is a woman who had to come to terms 470 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: with her multi racial, as she put it, past and origin, 471 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: someone who had to embrace both the amazing freedmen in 472 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: her tree, but also the slave ancestors who she writes about, 473 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: who didn't have They did have a complicated relationship, obviously 474 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: with the white people who owned them, But she writes 475 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: about having to come to ter terms with the complexities 476 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: of realizing that her great grandmother didn't hate these people. 477 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: She was quite friendly and intimate with the white women 478 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: of that family. So, as you might imagine, it's that 479 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: dual heritage that had a huge effect on her and 480 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: gave her a strong sense of personal identity. She writes 481 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: about it as the tangled roots from which I sprang, 482 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: and said she felt it was part of her destiny 483 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: to counteract the effects of stereotypes that black people had 484 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: played no significant role in US history. And that's what's 485 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: so addictive about family research and genealogy. It's it's digging 486 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: into the past and realizing that whether you're at the 487 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: top of the socioeconomic heap or at the bottom, all 488 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: of these people played such an important role in the 489 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: foundation of this country. And so that really played a 490 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: role in helping her define who she was. Yeah, And 491 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: the more she learned about herself often where she came from, 492 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: and the more deeply embedded she became in the civil 493 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: rights movement, motivated by those tangled roots that she wrote about. 494 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: It also fueled her feminism because as we move into 495 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies, particularly when the black power movement arises, 496 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: she becomes really uncomfortable with the power structures that she 497 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: sees emerging in it. And for instance, I'm jumping ahead 498 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: a little bit, but just to give you a sense 499 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: of where we're going. In the nineteen seventy essay, she wrote, 500 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: the main thrust of black militancy is a bit of 501 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: black males to share power with white males in a 502 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: continuing patriarchal society in which both black and white females 503 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: are relegated to a secondary status. Yeah, and this is 504 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: this is where it's important to remember her push for 505 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: um both protect action for both sex and racial discrimination, 506 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: because her attitude was that if you protect for both, 507 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: then you uplift everyone. Like we mentioned earlier, Yeah, so 508 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: if we go back to nineteen sixty one, she's a 509 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: big deal. JFK appoints her to the President's Committee on 510 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: the Status of Women as well as the Commission on 511 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,760 Speaker 1: Civil and Political Rights. And the more immersed she gets 512 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: in the civil rights movement, the more she starts to 513 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: see and call out sexism within the movement because of 514 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,879 Speaker 1: its avoidance of appointing women to visible leadership roles and 515 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: tacitly endorsing gender segregation by, for instance, appearing at the 516 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 1: National Press Club, which enraged her because at the time, 517 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: the National Press Club excluded women. So she's like, what 518 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: are you doing, you'r you can't stay in this one 519 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: space that doesn't allow these people in while you're advocating 520 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: for were the rights of more people. Yeah, and it's 521 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: interesting because you've also got to keep in mind that 522 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 1: there were a lot of civil rights leaders who saw 523 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: women's rights as a completely separate issue, which echoes back 524 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,280 Speaker 1: to our episodes that we've done on suffrage and black 525 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: women in the abolition and suffrage movements, because it was 526 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: sort of the other side of the coin back then, 527 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,959 Speaker 1: all of these women pushing for suffrage and women's rights 528 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: were like black issues are totally separate things, stopped distracting 529 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: from the cause. Yeah, I mean, and in a way 530 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: like her biography does echo a lot of the women 531 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,240 Speaker 1: that we talked about. Um I T. B. Wells comes 532 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: to mind of someone straddling both suffrage and abolition and 533 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: often being caught at those intersections. Um So, N four 534 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,280 Speaker 1: is a pivotal year, not only for Polly but also 535 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 1: for the US because this is when the Civil Rights 536 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 1: Act is enacted, and this is the year her that 537 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: she co authors her landmark paper, Jane Crow and the 538 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: Law Sex Discrimination, entitled seven, published in the George Washington 539 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: Law Review. And this was a really radical idea, this 540 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: whole Jane Crow of crystallizing that double discrimination of being 541 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: not only African American but also female because as Harvard 542 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: Law Professor Kenneth W. Mac points out, this is the 543 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 1: early nineteen sixties. You still have laws on the books 544 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 1: excluding women from certain jobs like like bartending for instance. Um, 545 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: you have all male juries going on. Um, and we 546 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: even have in nineteen sixty one scoutis Justice John Marshall 547 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: Harlan writing, woman is still regarded as the center of 548 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: home and family. That's where she belongs. I added that 549 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: last bit of that's where she belonged. Well, yeah, it's 550 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,760 Speaker 1: that idea of benevolent sexism, that women must be protected 551 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: from certain dangerous or unsavory situations, whether it's being a 552 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: bartender or being a juror Yeah. And so she publishes 553 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: this paper in the same year. I mean, she's so busy. 554 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: I want to know it's also her secret to productivity. 555 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: That's another episode, I guess, um. But the same year 556 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: she individually lobbies congressmen and even Lady brig Johnson to 557 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: include sex the word sex in the Civil Rights Act 558 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: to make sure that it not only protects against racial 559 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: discrimination but also gender based discrimination. And she was able 560 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: to convince congressmen to include it because she was the 561 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: first one to argue not that it would benefit solely 562 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: white women, or that it would pass ssibly um negatively 563 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: impact black men. But she raised the issue of its 564 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 1: impact on black women. I mean, that's another thing. An 565 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: undercurrent to all of the stuff that's going on is 566 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: the complete invisibility of black women in our society for 567 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,720 Speaker 1: so long. Yeah, well, she writes, I mean, speaking about herself. 568 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: She read about being a minority of a minority, of 569 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: being a woman who was also black, and the hardships 570 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: that come along with that. Yeah. And so she was 571 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: able to make the convincing argument that you must include 572 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: that sex clause because if you don't, you will leave 573 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:47,759 Speaker 1: out this entire population of black women and only increase 574 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:54,399 Speaker 1: the social burden that they're bearing. And meanwhile, the next year, 575 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: she becomes the first African American to earn a JSD 576 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: from Yale, and her dissertation is Roots of the Racial 577 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,959 Speaker 1: Crisis Prologue to Policy. And I note all these things 578 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: that she's writing, because again, how is she doing all 579 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: of this? How does she? How does she do it? Caroline? 580 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: I have no I have no idea. And and she 581 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 1: wanted to add to it because she also wanted to 582 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 1: get a law school teaching job after she graduated. But 583 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,280 Speaker 1: no one would hire her, and there have been questions 584 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: about whether that distancing from her as successful as she was, 585 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: as prominent as she was at the time, that her 586 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: outward queerness possibly um alienated her from certain employment. Interesting. Well, okay, 587 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 1: so we mentioned the whole jury thing earlier about benevolent 588 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 1: sexism and women at the time being exempt from jury 589 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: service unless they volunteered. Well, that whole idea comes up 590 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: again in nineteen sixty six when, along with the a 591 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 1: c LU legal team, Paully co writes the brief in 592 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: the case Why v. Cook, which struck down the constitutionality 593 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: of all white, all male juries. This gets rid of 594 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,439 Speaker 1: all of those quote unquote protections for women. She had 595 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,760 Speaker 1: wanted it though, to reach the Supreme Court and serve 596 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: as women's brown versus Board of Education. And speaking of women, 597 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 1: the same year she becomes a founding member of the 598 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,760 Speaker 1: National Organization for Women. She had suggested, actually to Betty 599 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: for Dan that there needed to be some sort of 600 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: n double a c P for women. Um. And I mean, 601 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,879 Speaker 1: by this point it makes total sense that she's so 602 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: engaged with the feminist movement because of all the groundwork 603 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: that had been laid going back to her sexist treatment 604 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: at Howard being on the President's Commission on the Status 605 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,320 Speaker 1: of Women. Researching this and also, of course it's embedded 606 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:59,359 Speaker 1: in her Jane Crow theory and her personal repulsion at 607 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: the anti feminism of some civil rights leaders as well 608 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: as UH leaders of the Black power movement. But I 609 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: mean she didn't, she didn't entirely find a home, not 610 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: surprisingly in in second way feminism, which was largely led 611 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 1: by middle and upper class white women. Yeah, I mean 612 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: she said that she did feel more comfortable within feminism, 613 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: but she quickly took issue with now's sidelining of civil 614 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: rights leaders. So it's that back and forth of like, 615 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: over here they don't want this aspect of me, and 616 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: over here they don't want this other aspect of me. 617 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,320 Speaker 1: So she ends up leaving, joining the a c l U, 618 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: and from there is instrumental in a c l U 619 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 1: adopting women's rights as a key priority. And from there 620 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: she finally gets the teaching job that she had so 621 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: long been wanting. She becomes a tenured professor at brandeis 622 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,720 Speaker 1: UM and she ends up developing some of the first 623 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:02,359 Speaker 1: black women's studies courses as an American Studies professor. Yeah, 624 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: I mean she's not a two dimensional person by any means. 625 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 1: I mean her one of her original interests on her 626 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 1: way to grad school with sociology, but she you know, 627 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: didn't go to you and c took the law route thankfully. Um. 628 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: But I mean, this is a woman with so many 629 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: different interests. Like, you know, I'm reading all of this 630 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 1: stuff about her and then it's like, oh yeah, And 631 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 1: I mean she started all of these black women studies 632 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 1: classes and You're like, how how did who has the time? 633 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 1: This woman? Like she's this is the most driven woman 634 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: I think I've ever read about. Oh and not to 635 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 1: mention Caroline, she was publishing poetry too all the while 636 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 1: because she I think her father wrote poetry and she 637 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: always felt that was a connection to him, you know, 638 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 1: because she lost him when she was twelve. I mean, 639 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,360 Speaker 1: although she was obviously separated from him before that. But 640 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: if we jump forward, she's sixty two. She's done so 641 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: much you think that Polly would like kick up her 642 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: feet and just chill out for the rest of her life. No, no, no, no, 643 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: she has one more first to accomplish. At sixty two, 644 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 1: she enters episcopal seminary. Despite the church not yet ordaining women. 645 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 1: Apparently in nineteen seventy four seven women had been sort 646 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 1: of like casually or day and they're like, we're like 647 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: kind of priests, but it's not really official. But Polly 648 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 1: Murray was like, no, no, no, this is nonsense. The 649 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:36,439 Speaker 1: sexism is ridiculous, and I love this faith. I'm going 650 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: to seminary. And in nineteen seventy seven she became the 651 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: first black female episcopal priest. And fascinating detail, she leaves 652 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,959 Speaker 1: her first Eucharist in the same North Carolina church where 653 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,880 Speaker 1: her grandmother, Cornelia, had been baptized one d and twenty 654 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,960 Speaker 1: three years earlier as a slave. I mean full circle. 655 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: Polly took it full circle. It almost Her bio almost 656 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,719 Speaker 1: reads as if she had some kind of blueprint she 657 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,719 Speaker 1: was following, because it's like, how else could you accomplish 658 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,879 Speaker 1: so much in so many different corners of our society? Well, yeah, 659 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,160 Speaker 1: and I mean she also writes in terms of entering 660 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,959 Speaker 1: the seminary, she writes about how Irene Barlow's death sort 661 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 1: of sparked something in her that was undeniable. It was 662 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: this she had always sort of had a connection with Christianity, 663 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: but something in her was driven to dedicate her life 664 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,840 Speaker 1: to it instead of just you know, belonging to a 665 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 1: church or going to a church. She just felt it 666 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: in her being that she had to do this, pursue 667 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 1: this path, and it was she writes about how it 668 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,799 Speaker 1: was fulfilling a different part of her. Obviously, all of 669 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 1: her legal work, her women's studies work, all of that 670 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,319 Speaker 1: had fulfilled very specific and large parts of her and 671 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: serve the community. But it time to serve at this age. 672 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:03,920 Speaker 1: It was time to serve a different part of herself 673 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: and a different portion of the community. Well, and I 674 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 1: love how yet again, her priesthood is an example of 675 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:16,800 Speaker 1: that personal drive being the compulsion to have that outwardly 676 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: manifested into something to enrich the world outside her. Because um, 677 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: it was also with Irene Barlow that she um became 678 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 1: more immersed in the church. They would go to church 679 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 1: together and it was you know, a significant part of 680 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 1: their relationship. And so I like thinking of her going 681 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,160 Speaker 1: to seminary as um, I don't know, it is almost 682 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,040 Speaker 1: an homage to Irene and that love that they had, 683 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,799 Speaker 1: which I couldn't find out much about, especially because it's 684 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:52,160 Speaker 1: not really documented in her personal papers or her autobiographies. Um, 685 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: there's there's not much out there about Irene. So after 686 00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:01,719 Speaker 1: such a rich and accomplished and sometimes highly conflict life, 687 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,760 Speaker 1: she dies and her autobiography, Song and a Weary Throat 688 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,439 Speaker 1: comes out two years later. And it's not until two 689 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 1: thousand twelve that the General Convention of the Episcopal Church 690 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,719 Speaker 1: makes her a saint. I we want a fitting end 691 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,000 Speaker 1: to this saint hood. Yeah, you know, I'm picturing because 692 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,120 Speaker 1: there's this great picture of her where she's close up 693 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,880 Speaker 1: and she's wearing her collar and she's smiling into the 694 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,400 Speaker 1: camera where her glasses on, and I just imagine a 695 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,799 Speaker 1: little halo going above her head like ding. I mean, 696 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 1: the things that this woman contributed to our world and 697 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:45,120 Speaker 1: our society are incredible. She broke so many barriers and 698 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 1: and she meant to. I mean, this is a woman 699 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 1: who meant to break these freaking barriers. Like she knew 700 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: what she was up against, she knew what she was doing, 701 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,400 Speaker 1: and the very life, her very existence was against the 702 00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:02,080 Speaker 1: norm and breaking barriers. And I mean, you know, talk 703 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:08,479 Speaker 1: about a a heroine for for for all of us. Yeah, 704 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:12,200 Speaker 1: because I mean that was her goal to embody intersectionality, 705 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,919 Speaker 1: even though that word had not been coined yet by 706 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:21,360 Speaker 1: yet another female legal scholar down the road and bridging 707 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:26,279 Speaker 1: gaps and uplifting marginalized people because of all of the 708 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:30,560 Speaker 1: different layers of identities and experiences that she had, And 709 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,400 Speaker 1: you're so right about the intentionality of all of it. 710 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,560 Speaker 1: Even when she applied to grad school at U and see, 711 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:38,319 Speaker 1: she knew she wasn't going to get in. She knew 712 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,440 Speaker 1: that they had a policy um barring people of color 713 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,040 Speaker 1: from admissions, but she didn't care, you know, she wanted 714 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:51,440 Speaker 1: to make a point. Well, I just I am so 715 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:57,239 Speaker 1: fascinated to look at modern uh feminism and politics in 716 00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,879 Speaker 1: light of Polly Murray's life because you know, I don't 717 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,640 Speaker 1: know how many times we can say that she was 718 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,239 Speaker 1: ahead of her time, because we need so many more 719 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,440 Speaker 1: minds like hers that worked to incorporate all of these 720 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:15,440 Speaker 1: different layers of yes, gender and sexuality but also race 721 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:21,319 Speaker 1: and uh socioeconomics. I mean, this woman tried to incorporate 722 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,279 Speaker 1: and did incorporate all of us into her life's work. Well, 723 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,879 Speaker 1: and it makes me so curious to know what she 724 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,719 Speaker 1: would say about intersectionality today if she was sitting here 725 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: with us, and what she would undoubtedly be seeing as 726 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,200 Speaker 1: the next step she would because you know, of course 727 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:40,640 Speaker 1: she would be if she were alive today, she would 728 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,279 Speaker 1: already be like twelve steps ahead of us. So I 729 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,359 Speaker 1: almost wish that she were still around to tell us 730 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,440 Speaker 1: what to do next. But listeners, I hope that Paully 731 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,960 Speaker 1: Murray's legacy has resonated as much with you as it 732 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,640 Speaker 1: has with us. Caroline, I've been telling so many people 733 00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:01,560 Speaker 1: about her by the way, um, and I'm curious to 734 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,960 Speaker 1: know from from folks whether they had heard of her before. 735 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,120 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at house stuffworks dot Com is where you 736 00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,799 Speaker 1: can send us your letters, and if there are other 737 00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:16,319 Speaker 1: unsung trailblazers that we should look into, please let us know. 738 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,680 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at Mom's stuff podcasts or 739 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,680 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages 740 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:30,359 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. Why have a letter 741 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,480 Speaker 1: here from Elizabeth, She says, I just listened to the 742 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,239 Speaker 1: episode on feminist marriages, and like everyone their mom, their dog, 743 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,400 Speaker 1: and they're downstairs, neighbor, I have a couple since I 744 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,319 Speaker 1: want to throw in about last names. I've heard a 745 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,760 Speaker 1: lot of women talk about how it's a feminist wind 746 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,480 Speaker 1: to keep their own last name after getting married. Some 747 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,600 Speaker 1: women get pretty smug about this, which is obnoxious to 748 00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:53,520 Speaker 1: say the least. But what nobody seems to mention about 749 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:57,719 Speaker 1: this is a hymn. A woman's maiden barf last name 750 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,799 Speaker 1: is uh, her dad's name. More likely than not, a 751 00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,240 Speaker 1: woman who is us born to an English speaking family 752 00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:07,120 Speaker 1: and plenty of other backgrounds have their dad's name. Dads 753 00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,920 Speaker 1: are almost always men, and fatherhood is a concept and 754 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:12,959 Speaker 1: social familial structure that is at the very root of patriarchy, 755 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:14,640 Speaker 1: quite literally, if we look at the root of the 756 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:18,120 Speaker 1: word patriarchy. So I'm not married and probably will never 757 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,399 Speaker 1: make that choice for myself, but it drives me nuts 758 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:22,560 Speaker 1: to hear the fact that an unmarried woman's last name 759 00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,799 Speaker 1: is probably her dad's last name, who's also a man 760 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 1: who is or was also a perceived authority figure. I 761 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,680 Speaker 1: say all this to say women are kind of screwed 762 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:31,520 Speaker 1: on this front, so we should just do whatever we 763 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:33,600 Speaker 1: want with our last names and not feel compelled one 764 00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,480 Speaker 1: way or another by patriarchy or feminism to change or 765 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,400 Speaker 1: keep it. In the seventies and earlier, it was definitely 766 00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,120 Speaker 1: super subversive and radical, but these days I think people 767 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,200 Speaker 1: need to chill out a little before they start asking 768 00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,600 Speaker 1: for medals for keeping their dad's name instead of taking 769 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:51,040 Speaker 1: their male spouses. Anyways, have been am currently and will 770 00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:53,919 Speaker 1: remain a huge fan of the cast to keep it up. Well, 771 00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,719 Speaker 1: Thank you, Elizabeth, loved your letter. I've got a letter 772 00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,760 Speaker 1: here from Carrie also about our Feminist Marriage podcast, and 773 00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,799 Speaker 1: she writes, I've been married to a wonderful feminist dude 774 00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,720 Speaker 1: for eight years now and it's been wonderful. Congratulations, Scary. 775 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,120 Speaker 1: We took each other's names because we viewed marriage as 776 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:15,239 Speaker 1: emerging of our two lives. As a consequence, we are 777 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,440 Speaker 1: the only Holly Hurts in the world, and that's pretty cool. 778 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:21,880 Speaker 1: I enjoyed Meg Keane's view of marriage, especially what she 779 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,760 Speaker 1: said about household duties being a negotiation. I completely agree 780 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,160 Speaker 1: with that. Although our system is a little less formal. 781 00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,319 Speaker 1: We both take on chores we have time for or 782 00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,000 Speaker 1: we're better at, so I cook and he cleans the kitchen. 783 00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,359 Speaker 1: But when it comes to things neither of us wants 784 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,680 Speaker 1: to do, like changing a dirty diaper, we go toe 785 00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,200 Speaker 1: to toe in a rousing game of rock paper scissors. 786 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,120 Speaker 1: It's the perfect way to get things done without either 787 00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,359 Speaker 1: of us feeling like we're doing more than the other. 788 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:50,319 Speaker 1: But Carrie, what if one of you is just like, 789 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,799 Speaker 1: really really good at rock paper scissors? Just wondering. She 790 00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,160 Speaker 1: goes on to say, though marriage takes work, but I 791 00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,400 Speaker 1: imagine it's a hell of a lot easier when you 792 00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,719 Speaker 1: have a partner that respects you and gets it. We're 793 00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:04,319 Speaker 1: just doing this thing and clinging on to each other 794 00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:09,000 Speaker 1: for dear life. So thank you, Carrie, and um, I'm 795 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,640 Speaker 1: wishing you the best of luck with some rock paper 796 00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:16,240 Speaker 1: scissors victories and friends. Keep your letters coming, Moms. Sabit 797 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,279 Speaker 1: housetot works dot com is where you can send them 798 00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:20,480 Speaker 1: and for links to all of our social media as 799 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,000 Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts with 800 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,960 Speaker 1: our sources. So you can learn more about Holly Murray, 801 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,359 Speaker 1: head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot 802 00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:36,840 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 803 00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:38,399 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff Works dot com