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Speaker 1: I'm Will Lucas and this is black tech, Green money.

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Speaker 1: Trey Baker is a serial entrepreneur, investor, north and dedicated

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Speaker 1: to advancing black economic leadership and fostering innovation. And he's

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Speaker 1: the former managing director of the Building Tulsa text Oars Accelerator.

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Speaker 2: He's got a.

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Speaker 1: Diverse portfolio of over eighty angel investments and extensive experience

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Speaker 1: founding and operating companies across industries like renewable energy, blockchain,

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Speaker 1: and consumer goods. One things for shore, two things for certain.

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Speaker 1: Trey is passionate about black economic self determination. When most

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Speaker 1: vcs pick a lane, you know, whether they're an invest

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Speaker 1: in you know, very new startups, pre.

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Speaker 2: Seed, seed stays.

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Speaker 1: Then you have others who picked you know, more mature startups,

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Speaker 1: a series bcs, et cetera. You decided to go early stage.

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Speaker 1: What is what was the driving decision behind that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I'm actually reconsidering that decision. But I started

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Speaker 3: in early stage because I am a you know, I'm

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Speaker 3: a former founder, serial entrepreneur, and you know I fashioned

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Speaker 3: myself as one of those zero to one founders, right Like,

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Speaker 3: I'm really good at starting stuff. I've never been able

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Speaker 3: to get over that hump to like, you know, really

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Speaker 3: scale something massively, but really good at starting stuff. So

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Speaker 3: I figure I might as well help founders in the

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Speaker 3: place where I'm good at, right, And I'm also just

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Speaker 3: interested in bringing ideas into fruition versus helping you know,

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Speaker 3: more established companies, Like it's just not my personality type

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Speaker 3: to deal with larger organizations. So you know, less than

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Speaker 3: ten employees, I'm your guy, but more than that, I

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Speaker 3: probably am not even interested in helping, because you're if

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Speaker 3: you made it to that point, you've probably made it

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Speaker 3: beyond my ability to help. But also just looking at

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Speaker 3: it from a pure returns perspective, that you know, the

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Speaker 3: power law is most powerful at the earliest stage, is right,

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Speaker 3: So that's when you can get those one hundred x

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Speaker 3: thousand x returns when you're investing at very low valuations

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Speaker 3: in the early stages. So you know, I can invest

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Speaker 3: in one hundred companies and lose ninety nine times, and

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Speaker 3: that that that one winner could take care of the

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Speaker 3: losses from all the rest. So just so two, you know,

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Speaker 3: basically two reasons I personally like enjoy early stage more,

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Speaker 3: and I think from a returns perspective, the you know,

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Speaker 3: there's more upside potential there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, at least by my last count,

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Speaker 1: you know, you have eighty plus investments, you know, and

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Speaker 1: with that, what patterns have you noticed are more prevalent

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Speaker 1: in startups that are successful versus struggling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, man, it so.

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Speaker 3: That number is actually doubled probably since whenever you saw

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Speaker 3: that number. So I'm I'm around one hundred and sixty

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Speaker 3: at this point. And what I didn't appreciate when I

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Speaker 3: first got started was, uh, the the importance of the

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Speaker 3: quality of the founders. You know, I thought you just

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Speaker 3: invest in a good idea and a good market and

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Speaker 3: that you know, the rest to take care of itself.

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Speaker 3: It's not like that at all, especially at the early stages.

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Speaker 3: The success of the companies are limited by the quality

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Speaker 3: of the founders, specifically the CEO. So you know CEOs

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Speaker 3: who are you know, intelligence is like basic everybody. You

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Speaker 3: got to have that baseline intelligence. But that's that's not enough.

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Speaker 3: You need somebody with high EQ that can deal with people,

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Speaker 3: that can communicate effectively, somebody who is resilient because you know,

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Speaker 3: especially the early days, shoot probably even all the way

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Speaker 3: up to I PO, being a startup founder is extremely difficult,

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Speaker 3: and if you haven't faced challenges in your life, you're

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Speaker 3: probably going.

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Speaker 2: To give up.

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Speaker 3: So I've had quite a few good businesses, right, like

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Speaker 3: business make perfect sense, good tech, good market, favorable market,

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Speaker 3: dynamic mix. And they you know, they lose because they quit,

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Speaker 3: they quit too soon and maybe had they you know,

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Speaker 3: had they stuck it out another three months, the market

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Speaker 3: would have corrected, and you know, they could have made

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Speaker 3: it out of whatever reut they were in. But it's

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Speaker 3: it's really the founder quality that separates the winners from

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Speaker 3: the losers. And you know, those those three I think

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Speaker 3: traits are most important. So being able to effectively communicate,

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Speaker 3: being resilient and being able to you know, face those challenges,

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Speaker 3: and then being highly adaptable. Right, So, like new information

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Speaker 3: is coming in all the time, data is changing all

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Speaker 3: the time, and you need to be able to have

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Speaker 3: a systematic process with which you can take in massive

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Speaker 3: amounts of data and make decisions right and not be

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Speaker 3: paralyzed by all the data, but actually make decisions.

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Speaker 2: And when you know you.

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Speaker 3: Have hypothesis that are proven wrong in the market, you

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Speaker 3: can quickly pivot and adapt to the new circumstances.

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Speaker 2: So think, you know, founder quality is number one.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's an article you had written about investment

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Speaker 1: strategy where you said, my goal with this series of

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Speaker 1: articles is to get black investors to think about to

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Speaker 1: think at a systemic level, sort of like how you

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Speaker 1: would approach managing a sovereign wealth fund for which generating

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Speaker 1: financial returns are only one consideration. So talk to me

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Speaker 1: about what other considerations are important when investing and how

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Speaker 1: does that systemic approach translate to the work that you do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, unfortunately it doesn't affect my day.

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Speaker 2: Well, my former day job.

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Speaker 3: My last day at tech Stars was actually a couple

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Speaker 3: of weeks ago, so I'm no longer the managing director

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Speaker 3: of tech Stars Tulsa. But and part of the reasons

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Speaker 3: that platforms is not operating at a systemic enough level, right,

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Speaker 3: it's not.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't big enough.

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Speaker 3: But really, what I noticed in most investing, but especially

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Speaker 3: in private markets and and venture capital, is.

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Speaker 2: The job of investors at a high level.

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Speaker 3: So like when you're operating at a system level, when

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Speaker 3: you when you actually have you know, organized capital markets

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Speaker 3: and and you know your group is has actual power.

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Speaker 3: So if like a group of black investors had the

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Speaker 3: same power as for example, the PayPal mafia, we would

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Speaker 3: operate differently.

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Speaker 2: And what I noticed is that they don't.

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Speaker 3: Necessarily pick winners like they they obviously they pick high

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Speaker 3: quality founders, good businesses, but they're not in the business

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Speaker 3: of picking winners.

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Speaker 2: They're in the business of making winners. So as soon

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Speaker 2: as you know one of.

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Speaker 3: The top tier vcs rights a check into your startup,

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Speaker 3: that's a signal to the rest of the market that

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Speaker 3: now you're you know, you're verified, you're you know, you

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Speaker 3: got the you're selected right, And then a bunch of

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Speaker 3: other doors start opening up. And we still operate under

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Speaker 3: the false assumption that meritocracy is an actual meritocracy is

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Speaker 3: a fairy tale.

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Speaker 2: Nobody gets ahead because only.

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Speaker 3: Of the quality of you know, their work, or their intelligence,

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Speaker 3: or you know their effort you have. This game is

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Speaker 3: more than most is a relationship game, and doors are

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Speaker 3: open because of who you know. I know plenty of

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Speaker 3: smart founders who are assholes that nobody wants to work with,

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Speaker 3: and they get nowhere because they don't have the relationships.

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Speaker 2: So when you're operating, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, in a ecosystem with a more collective strategy. Now

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying that I don't know if the quote

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Speaker 3: unquote mainstream investors are deliberately doing this because the system

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Speaker 3: just work. But we have to actually be intentional about creating,

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Speaker 3: for lack of a better term, investment mafias, right, like

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Speaker 3: where we pick winners and we make them win using

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Speaker 3: the power of our relationships, connections, government relations, lobbying, ferts.

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Speaker 2: I remember I read an article a few years ago

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Speaker 2: about how.

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Speaker 3: The four to one hundred gets like two hundred x

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Speaker 3: return on their lobbying dollars. So every dollar they spend

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Speaker 3: on lobbying, they get two hundred dollars back in revenue

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Speaker 3: or income.

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Speaker 2: And that's when I realized we're playing the wrong game.

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Speaker 3: You know, if you can consistently generate those type of

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Speaker 3: returns based off lobbying, then we need to be doing

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Speaker 3: more of those activities.

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Speaker 2: And that's and lobbying is only you.

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Speaker 3: Know, taking advantage of building and taking advantage of relationships.

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Speaker 1: So if if the game is not about hating the players,

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Speaker 1: but the game, you know, so if you if there's

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Speaker 1: a game that has to be played, how do black

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Speaker 1: founders play it well so that you know, we can

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Speaker 1: hate the game and say, you know, it should be

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Speaker 1: a meritocracy. It should not be you know, just based

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Speaker 1: on who I know, but because it is how do

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Speaker 1: we win that game?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, one of the benefits of of going

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Speaker 3: through accelerators is getting access to those networks, especially the

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Speaker 3: top tier accelerator. So like, you know, one of the

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Speaker 3: selling points of tech Stars was, you know, access to

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Speaker 3: the tech Stars network and there's like twenty thousand founders, mentors,

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Speaker 3: investors in that network. Joining professional associations so like on

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Speaker 3: the black side would be like NESBY National Society of

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Speaker 3: Black Engineers, National Black NBA Association, getting yourself into rooms

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Speaker 3: where you can create relationships. And also as a startup founder,

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Speaker 3: I've seen a lot of success by from founders who

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Speaker 3: use thought leadership as as marketing strategy because you're not

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Speaker 3: only marketing to potential customers, you're marketing to potential investors

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Speaker 3: and potential employees as well. So the one too many

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Speaker 3: approach versus like you know, one of the conferences is

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Speaker 3: like one to one, like you got to meet individuals,

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Speaker 3: But establishing yourself as a thought leader on social media

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Speaker 3: is a one to many approach where you can get

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Speaker 3: in front of thousands or potentially millions of people at

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Speaker 3: once and building your personal brand. Now, for a lot

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Speaker 3: of startup founders, I know that's daunting because most of

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Speaker 3: us are introverts and we don't want to do it,

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Speaker 3: Like I don't actually want to be doing this podcast,

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Speaker 3: but like I need to do.

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Speaker 2: It right, Like I don't like talking to people. I

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Speaker 2: don't like being a.

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Speaker 3: I guess I'm a I would, I guess I'm like

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Speaker 3: a g List influencer of that a decent following.

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Speaker 2: It's you know, I'm not on celebrity.

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Speaker 3: Status, but but I do it because it's a means

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Speaker 3: to an end and I have these ideas that I

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Speaker 3: need to get out and people seem to resonate with.

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Speaker 3: And I've seen, you know, some of the top founders

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Speaker 3: in my portfolio are really good at that. Or they

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Speaker 3: create systems to build the brand and community around the company.

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Speaker 3: So like creating a community versus a personnel being dependent

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Speaker 3: on your personal brand, and I've seen.

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Speaker 2: Both of those things.

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Speaker 3: Where so if you have a very ardent and you know,

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Speaker 3: uh loyal community, that can also help a lot. But

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Speaker 3: you know, getting connected to as many people as possible

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Speaker 3: increases your chances of success because it's likely that somebody

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Speaker 3: who you're connected to, is is going to be able

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Speaker 3: to help you when you need it?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: So, if I know a million people and I can

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Speaker 3: ask a million people of favor, that's better than asking one,

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Speaker 3: right because most likely somebody in that following is gonna

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Speaker 3: it's gonna be.

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Speaker 2: Able to help me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you're somebody who cares a lot about

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Speaker 1: community development also, And so when you're thinking about an investment,

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Speaker 1: how do you evaluate whether an investment specifically serves an

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Speaker 1: opportunistic return opportunity, opportunistic can return opportunity, or a strategic

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Speaker 1: community opportunity. How do you determine whether it serves either

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Speaker 1: or it doesn't matter?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 3: Matter, And obviously the ideal is both. Like if I

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Speaker 3: can get one that does both, then I'll prioritize that

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Speaker 3: kind of deal. But there are phases in terms of

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Speaker 3: like the economic development plan that I've laid out, and

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Speaker 3: right now I'm in a capital accumulation phase. So right

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Speaker 3: now I'm prioritizing anything that makes me the most money

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Speaker 3: personally and also the people around me, because one of

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Speaker 3: my other personal goals is helping to create at least

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Speaker 3: a thousand other black millionaires.

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Speaker 2: Right, So you know, I don't really care where.

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Speaker 3: The money comes from as long as you know, legal

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Speaker 3: and people are hurting the process. So I'm not probably

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Speaker 3: not going to get into the you know, the the

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Speaker 3: weapons of mass destruction game, you know, or certain areas

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Speaker 3: of defense. But you know, so it kind of depends

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Speaker 3: on what phase you're in. The next phase is more

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Speaker 3: is more focused on strategic things. So for example, in

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Speaker 3: my book, I talk about the key areas of development,

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Speaker 3: so food, energy, water, defense, shelter. So like picking one

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Speaker 3: of those verticals and then taking it over. You know,

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Speaker 3: I've also got a soft spot for consumer goods, so like,

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Speaker 3: you know, we've got probably one hundred different black owned

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Speaker 3: soap companies.

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Speaker 2: We probably don't need one hundred.

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Speaker 3: We need two or three really big ones, right, So

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Speaker 3: like there's a consolidation play that can be run there.

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Speaker 3: And I don't know how much money is in the

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Speaker 3: soap game, but it's more about that. Those strategic investments

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Speaker 3: are more about job creation because also one one aspect

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Speaker 3: of political power is the number of jobs that you

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Speaker 3: can control, right, So that's why Home Depot and Delta

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Speaker 3: Airlines have so much power in the city of Atlanta

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Speaker 3: because they control thousands of jobs in that city, right,

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Speaker 3: So it's not only about financial returns for your shareholders,

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Speaker 3: it's also about the income you're generating for your employees,

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Speaker 3: and you know the third order effects of the community

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Speaker 3: around it.

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Speaker 2: So if all of a.

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Speaker 3: Sudden, now I have, you know, a thousand extra above

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Speaker 3: average paying jobs in a community, those people now are

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Speaker 3: going out spending more money at restaurants and childcare services

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Speaker 3: and healthcare in it, and the knock on effects in

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Speaker 3: the rest of the economy expand out from there. So

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Speaker 3: I think mainly about one wealth building and financial returns,

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Speaker 3: but also job creation and the quality of those jobs too,

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Speaker 3: So you know, a thousand high paying jobs are better

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Speaker 3: than a thousand minimum wage jobs. And think about labor

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Speaker 3: force participation rates GDP contributions. So like all black owned

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Speaker 3: businesses contribute less than one percent of total GDP, which

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Speaker 3: means we're economically irrelevant and which is why people can

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Speaker 3: harm us politically, socially, economically with immunity, because we've built

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Speaker 3: no productive capacity, no base of productive capacity with which

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Speaker 3: to build a more stable power structure. So I think

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Speaker 3: about all those things when investing, but when I'm looking

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Speaker 3: at individual deals that usually doesn't factor in.

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Speaker 2: It's like, does this fit into a.

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Speaker 3: Broader picture and does it offer potential expansion plays later on? Right, So,

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Speaker 3: like I make I might make three investments in three

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Speaker 3: competitors and try to roll them up. Yeah, and most

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Speaker 3: vcs don't won't do that, won't invest in direct competitors.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're I'm not passionate about Tulsa, And I

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Speaker 1: think about, you know, how do smaller cities compete or

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Speaker 1: maybe not even compete, but learn from bigger cities, major

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Speaker 1: tech hubs without the same amount of resources that those

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Speaker 1: major tech hubs can accumulate and throw at an issue.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's a that's a hard question. If

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Speaker 3: I had the answer all the answers, i'd probably be

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Speaker 3: in charge of more capital right now. But what I

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Speaker 3: have learned from Tulsa is the power of community and

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Speaker 3: of creating enough serendipitous and organic opportunities to connect for

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Speaker 3: people to connect. Right, So, Like, you don't always have

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Speaker 3: to have a meeting for a specific purpose.

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Speaker 2: One thing that we're really good.

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Speaker 3: At here is just having a bunch of random social

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Speaker 3: activities targeting you know, founders and business owners, and you

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Speaker 3: end up making a lot of useful connections just in

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Speaker 3: the random interactions that happen. But you know that's on

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Speaker 3: the economic connectivity side. In order to move the needle forward,

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Speaker 3: you have to be a little bit more attentional. And

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Speaker 3: I think smaller cities can compete on some fundamental things

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Speaker 3: like quality of life, like especially targeting certain demographics, like

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Speaker 3: people who are a little bit further along in their

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Speaker 3: careers and have you know, started families. Like most of

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Speaker 3: my adulthood was spent in Atlanta, and my you know,

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Speaker 3: twenties in Atlanta is completely different than you know, my

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Speaker 3: lifestyle now, and Tulsa suits my lifestyle more than you

303
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Speaker 3: know Atlanta does at the.

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Speaker 2: At the moment, we might end up back in Atlanta,

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Speaker 2: but even you know, the.

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Speaker 3: House that I still keep in Atlanta its way in

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Speaker 3: the suburbs, so like it's different.

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Speaker 2: It's much different than when I was living in Atlantic Station.

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Speaker 3: But creating place is very important, Like creating places where

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Speaker 3: people actually want to live and work is like probably

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Speaker 3: fifty percent of that, right, because like you're going to

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Speaker 3: have issues with retention if if you try to stick

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Speaker 3: people in places that are not cool to live and

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Speaker 3: they don't have basic.

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Speaker 2: Services like grocery store childcare.

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Speaker 3: You're not going to build a thriving startup hub and

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Speaker 3: a food desert, right, So there's some like basic placemaking,

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Speaker 3: making things, and then you know, some other things like

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Speaker 3: making it easy to connect to customers and capital.

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Speaker 2: So like New York is, you know, the wild West.

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Speaker 3: You go out there, you just got to grind it

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Speaker 3: out and hope you make the right connections that make

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Speaker 3: it work. Whereas smaller cities have the benefit of you know,

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Speaker 3: there are probably entities that can get to everybody that matters, right,

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Speaker 3: Like in Tulsa, I can get to the mayor if

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Speaker 3: I need to.

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Speaker 2: I don't you know, I've never needed to do that.

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Speaker 3: But like I'm one phone call from a phone call

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Speaker 3: away from meeting the mayor of Tulsa. I'm probably several

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Speaker 3: years and many phone calls and meetings and donations away

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Speaker 3: from meeting the mayor of New York, you know. So

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Speaker 3: being able to use your smallness as a benefit to

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Speaker 3: connect entrepreneurs to sources of capital and most importantly, customers.

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Speaker 2: So like chambers of commerce and small cities can.

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Speaker 3: Be very important for helping like, for example, a small startup,

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Speaker 3: a software startup who's targeting small construction businesses to those customers,

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00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,680
Speaker 3: Whereas it's a little bit harder to make those connections.

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Speaker 3: Even though there's more of them exist in an ecosystem,

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Speaker 3: it's hard to actually get to the players that matter

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Speaker 3: in larger cities. So smaller cities can use their smallness

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Speaker 3: as an advantage to connect founders more efficiently to resources

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Speaker 3: in that community and then also getting more community support

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Speaker 3: around them, right because it's kind of like an underdog mentality,

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Speaker 3: and you know that that people can rally around these

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Speaker 3: these hometown heroes versus if you're another rich person in

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Speaker 3: New York, nobody.

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Speaker 2: Gives a fuck.

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Speaker 1: No I think about you know, so I have a

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Speaker 1: private social club here. We we have a whole angle

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Speaker 1: for creating creating community for founders, and subset of that

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Speaker 1: is black founders. Obviously, so I should say obviously, but that's.

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Speaker 2: Part of it.

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Speaker 1: And so I think a lot about physical space and

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Speaker 1: how physical space brings people together. And so because you

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Speaker 1: touched on you know, the using the smallness and leveraging

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Speaker 1: the smallness and creating events and you know, opportunities for

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Speaker 1: these I owns to get to know each other. Speak

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Speaker 1: more about what role physical space plays in building successful

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Speaker 1: startup communities.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so one, developing physical spaces is also a valuable

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Speaker 3: economic activity and their returns to be made there, right,

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Speaker 3: So like being you know, building the store creates jobs,

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Speaker 3: Owning the store also creates jobs.

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Speaker 2: So there's a whole economic development play just.

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Speaker 3: In developing the lands, right, because the basis of all

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00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 3: wealth starts in land. Even data centers have to be

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Speaker 3: physically located somewhere, right, So one, there's economic activity.

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Speaker 2: There and then two.

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Speaker 3: One thing that has been beneficial and interesting about the

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Speaker 3: Tulsa ecosystem is that literally all the startup activity happens

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Speaker 3: within call it a ten square block radius, So like

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Speaker 3: can I can physically walk to everything that happens, right,

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Speaker 3: whether it's a meeting with the VC City Hall is

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00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,919
Speaker 3: also a walking distance. If there's a happy hour of

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Speaker 3: targeting founders or demo day, pitch night, usually it's within

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00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:09,600
Speaker 3: walking distance, right, And that.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like it would be that important.

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Speaker 3: But if you think about it, it actually increases the amount

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Speaker 3: of activity that you can do in.

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Speaker 2: A specific period of time.

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Speaker 3: So if we've got people coming in from outside and

382
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 3: like they're turning the ecosystem, they can literally get more

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Speaker 3: meetings in or more events and more activity in the

384
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Speaker 3: same amount of time because they're spending less time in transit.

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Speaker 2: And it seems trivial, But having.

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Speaker 3: Lived in Atlanta and dealt with Atlanta traffic, I could

387
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Speaker 3: tell you it is not. The amount of time you

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Speaker 3: spend in transit is not trivial, and it increases the

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Speaker 3: amount of activity that can happen for.

390
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,360
Speaker 2: An individual, but also for a community.

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Speaker 3: So if like, hey, there's a demo day over here

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00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 3: and you know a happy hour over here, I can

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00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,440
Speaker 3: probably make it to both right, whereas if one is

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00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 3: across town then that's impossible. So creating physical spaces that

395
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 3: are in close proximity and are walkable to not only

396
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 3: the you know, the business activities so the you know,

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00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,639
Speaker 3: the founder happy are but also you know, if you

398
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 3: want to take a lunch meeting, or if there's you know, childcare,

399
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,439
Speaker 3: so you're never too far from picking up or dropping

400
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 3: off your child. Like little things like that increase the

401
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 3: amount of social activity and social connectedness that can that

402
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,159
Speaker 3: can happen in a community, and physical spaces are a

403
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 3: big part of that because these also need to be

404
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 3: housed in places that people actually want to go, like

405
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 3: a cool speakeasy versus just the random you know, chain

406
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 3: restaurant or bar, right, or like the you know, the

407
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 3: mom and pop food truck, you know, food truck Fridays

408
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 3: in the park in the local park is more interesting

409
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 3: than you know, just going meeting out a random Starbucks.

410
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 2: Right.

411
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 3: So, these place making things are very important in the

412
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 3: physical spaces, and the people who create community around those

413
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,679
Speaker 3: spaces are very important along with you know, creatives, because like,

414
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 3: nobody wants to be in a city without any culture

415
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 3: or art or music or you know, culinary arts.

416
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 2: Right. So, like those enabling factors make a.

417
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 3: Place desirable living, and then it's easier to you know,

418
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 3: it's slightly easier to deal with those hard days when

419
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 3: like you lost your biggest customer or you get kicked

420
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 3: in the teeth by an investor that told you your

421
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 3: idea is terrible and you should quit. Right, So being

422
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 3: in a cool place makes those days a little bit

423
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 3: easier to deal with, Whereas if you're in a also

424
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 3: a terrible place and you're having a terrible day, Yeah,

425
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 3: that doesn't help.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, there's this line another line I read

427
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Speaker 1: that you wrote, and you said it is an inefficient

428
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,719
Speaker 1: use of energy. It is an inefficient use of energy

429
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Speaker 1: to try and convince non black people to prioritize black

430
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Speaker 1: people in any area. And I really have question for that.

431
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 2: What did you say more heavy? Yeah? Yeah, I mean

432
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 2: I feel like that's kind of self explanatory.

433
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 3: But you know, there's another quote something like, you know,

434
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 3: you end up.

435
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 2: Wasting a lot of.

436
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 3: Energy trying to convince thing people of things that you

437
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 3: thought were obvious.

438
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 2: And I think I can't remember who is Tony Morris.

439
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 2: I can't remember who said.

440
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 3: That, but you know, because I used to get caught

441
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 3: up in a bunch of debates and they don't move

442
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 3: that don't move the conversation forward, and don't result in action,

443
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 3: and that's you know, we're way too far behind. We

444
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 3: got a fifteen trillion dollar wealth gap. We don't have

445
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 3: time to be arguing with people about stuff that should

446
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 3: be should be obvious. Like because I was just thinking

447
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 3: about this in the context of reparations, I I'm you know,

448
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 3: I'm doing a lot of work on reparations, but all

449
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 3: of my work is is focused on on how to

450
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 3: get it and then how to implement a reparations program.

451
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 3: I'm doing no work on proving that we should get it.

452
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 3: Like all that works one, it's already been done by

453
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 3: people much more qualified than me, Like you know, tansee codes.

454
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 3: Sandy William Derridy wrote a really good I think the

455
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 3: pivotal work called from Here to Equality. So if from

456
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 3: Here to Equality doesn't convince you that reparations is needed

457
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 3: and you know, and the amount of you know, the

458
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 3: amount that we should get, I'm not going to do that.

459
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 3: But for the people who do agree, both philosophically and practically,

460
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 3: that it's a necessary fight, I'm focused on that, and

461
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 3: my energy is better used on moving the ball forward

462
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 3: rather than arguing where to put the ball, yeah, or

463
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 3: whether the ball even exists. Some people don't even acknowledge

464
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 3: the existence of the problem. I don't have any words

465
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 3: for those people.

466
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, how am my AI? You know, impact black economic

467
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: self determination?

468
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: In your view? Man, this is a good question.

469
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 3: I've been thinking a lot about AI and specifically automation

470
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 3: in the context of post labor economics, because I think sooner,

471
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 3: sooner than most people think, we're going to get to

472
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 3: a point where most human labor is unnecessary. And how

473
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 3: do we position ourselves to deal with that? Because if

474
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 3: we stay on the path that we're on, it's going

475
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 3: to create more inequality.

476
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 2: It's only going to widen gaps.

477
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 3: And if we don't have control the means of production

478
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 3: in that context. So how AI can affect the black

479
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 3: community specifically is one increasing our productivity, right, Like this

480
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 3: is a great equalized for example, Like I'm not I'm

481
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 3: a non technical founder. I don't know how to code,

482
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 3: but I've started to do some coding because AI enabled that.

483
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 3: And you know, I've always been the idea guy and

484
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 3: the product guy, so I'm really good at user experience

485
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 3: and user interface.

486
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm non technical, so I can't code.

487
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 2: Now I can.

488
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 3: So now literally I can start and run an entire

489
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 3: company myself, which is my dream because I'm, like I said,

490
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 3: I'm an introvert, and dealing with employees it's the worst

491
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 3: part of growing a startup. So you can literally have

492
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 3: you know, one hundred million dollar, billion dollar businesses with

493
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 3: very few employees, which is a most good and a

494
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 3: bad thing.

495
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: Like your revenue per employee is going to be through

496
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 2: the roof.

497
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 3: It's going to be amazing well generation opportunity, but it's

498
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 3: also going to displace a bunch of jobs. So we

499
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 3: need to put ourselves in a position to one not

500
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 3: only take advantage of these productivity tools as individuals increasing

501
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 3: our productivity, increasing our earning potential, but also collectively creating

502
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 3: systems where the wealth and the gains from that productivity

503
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 3: increase are actually distributed. So one very specific way to

504
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 3: do that is focusing more on employee and community owned

505
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 3: cooperative cooperatives and employee owned businesses, which one are you know,

506
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 3: studies have shown are actually more profitable and more resilient

507
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 3: because you know, for example, a factory that is owned

508
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,719
Speaker 3: by its employees, it is not going to outsource its

509
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 3: jobs to China, right, so it's gonna be more resilient

510
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 3: source of jobs for that community. But also employees who

511
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 3: are owners have more of incentive to save the company

512
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 3: money or increase the company's efficiency, and that proves out

513
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 3: over time that employee owned businesses are more productive.

514
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 2: So marrying the increased productivity.

515
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 3: Gains from AI and automation with an employee and you

516
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 3: know community ownership structure, like you know, you've got Sevenande

517
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 3: in Atlanta, which is a community owned grocery store. Like,

518
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,239
Speaker 3: marrying those two things, I think not only can you

519
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 3: want to actually make us economically relevant, but also make

520
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 3: sure that the gains from that that increased productivity get

521
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 3: distributed more equitably than they would they otherwise would.

522
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: But just for startup founders.

523
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 3: Like if you're not using AI on a day to

524
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 3: day basis and forcing your employees to, you're already falling behind.

525
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 2: These tools are are wild and they're only getting more powerful.

526
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 3: You know, ten years from now, I can't even predict

527
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 3: what the world's going to look like. It's going to

528
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 3: be insane if we don't destroy ourselves or just story

529
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 3: the planet.

530
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, I have this, you know, personal philosophy about

531
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: you know, some black institutions. So I'll give you one

532
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: example or maybe two examples. So, like, you know, I

533
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: believe there's no reason the Black Church shouldn't be into

534
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: farming and banking, like we need to be collecting.

535
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: Like what are we doing if we're not speaking in

536
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 2: my language now?

537
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: But like what are we doing if we're not teaching

538
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: people how to grow food and we're not helping them

539
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: in economics, if we just shouting on Sunday, were not

540
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: doing much? And so I'd like you to speak more

541
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: on the role traditional Black institutions should be playing in

542
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: economic development.

543
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm definitely very critical of existing institutions as well,

544
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 3: but we can't just.

545
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 2: Burn them to the ground like they have.

546
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 3: You know, institutional infrastructure that is valuable and that has

547
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 3: been developed over decades, and it'd be a shame for

548
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 3: that to go to waste. But so one very simple

549
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 3: thing that I've been proposed saying for years now is

550
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: that every black institution should have some mechanism to economically

551
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 3: organize their membership base.

552
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: So it doesn't matter what the purpose of the organization is.

553
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 3: You should have some type of mutual aid, investment club SUSU,

554
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 3: rotating loans, something that connects the membership economically and allows

555
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 3: them to invest in each other beyond just simply like

556
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 3: supporting each other's businesses if they they exist at all.

557
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: So that's one like very easy, low hanging fruit.

558
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 3: And churches are an easy way to organize that because

559
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 3: they're already meeting every week, right, you could include an

560
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 3: investment club meeting right after Bible study.

561
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 2: So the infrastructure already exists.

562
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: They already have a mechanism to collect money from everybody,

563
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 3: all the members.

564
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: So that's one.

565
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,239
Speaker 3: And then you know, from churches in particular as all

566
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 3: get to professional organizations as well. But churches in particular,

567
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 3: most of them are sitting on some of the most

568
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 3: valuable real estate in the country, right and most of

569
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 3: it's being underutilized six or five days out of the week.

570
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 3: So increasing the utilization of the physical spaces, Like, it

571
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 3: doesn't make any sense to me that there are any

572
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 3: homeless or hungry people within you know, half a mile

573
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 3: RTUs of any church, So getting into that, you know,

574
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 3: urban farming, and maybe creating some halfway houses or some

575
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 3: type of living facilities next to or in the church,

576
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: using the church physical spaces for community events and meetings

577
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 3: that otherwise we have to pay for, for example, like

578
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 3: we host demo days and we always pay the venue

579
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 3: for that might as well like that, but so using

580
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 3: the physical spaces and organizing the membership economically, right, Like

581
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 3: it's not enough to just have social gatherings and pray

582
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 3: for each other, but actually investing each other and investing

583
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 3: in the communities. The same goes for like hpcus and

584
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 3: alumni networks. It doesn't make sense why all these HBCUs

585
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 3: are physically located in impoverish neighborhoods, Like the HPCU should

586
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 3: be a center of economic activity that expands out from it,

587
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 3: enabled by alumni networks who are also organized in investment

588
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:33,479
Speaker 3: clubs and things like that.

589
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: So you have the alumni.

590
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 3: You know, all the AUC alumni should be invested, should

591
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 3: be partial owners of all the businesses that operate within

592
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 3: you know, a five mile radius of the AEC in Atlanta, Right,

593
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 3: same goes for professional organizations like you know, like NAACP

594
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 3: Nesby well INAAB is a civic organization, so like Nesby

595
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 3: National Black NBA Association, all the Divine nine.

596
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: N PHC organizations. Similar thing.

597
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 3: I know, the Omegas have a credit union, like every

598
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 3: every institution should have at least a credit union that's

599
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 3: low hanging fruit, an investment club organized locally, regionally and

600
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 3: nationally for all the organizations, and an official investment mechanism.

601
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,919
Speaker 2: Right. Because all these nonprofits are sitting on piles of.

602
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 3: Cash, most of them have not organized them into endowments, right, Like,

603
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 3: that's how Ivy League universities can offer free tuition for

604
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 3: undergrads now because their endowments are so big, we need

605
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 3: to be focusing on growing permanent pools of capital that

606
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 3: kick off regular returns, right, So then our organizations can

607
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 3: then be self funding rather than having to go you know,

608
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 3: live hand the mouth and go out and fundraise every year.

609
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 3: And then you know, those funds typically come along with

610
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 3: strings attached, so which affects your politicals stances, the people

611
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 3: that you can endorse the policies that you support because

612
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 3: of the source of the money. So if we have

613
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 3: you know, permanently endowed all these institutions, then we can be.

614
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: A little bit more.

615
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 3: We have a little bit more sovereignty in terms of

616
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 3: how we operate and how we move and maybe we

617
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 3: upset some folks, but it doesn't matter because they don't

618
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 3: pay us.

619
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: So these.

620
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 3: These legacy organizations have one thing that we desperately need,

621
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 3: which is they've already organized the community.

622
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 2: Like that's the hardest part.

623
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 3: That's like my biggest bottleneck is I don't I have

624
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 3: a loose following, but I haven't created a structure around it,

625
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 3: right whereas these these entities, and I don't feel like

626
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 3: I need to do that, Like I don't think the

627
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:56,240
Speaker 3: world needs another black organization, Like we already have plenty

628
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 3: that are underutilized. So I'd rather support the you know,

629
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 3: so transformation of existing institutions and making them more effective

630
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,720
Speaker 3: and starting my own, although I am reaching the limits

631
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 3: of my patient so I might end up starting something

632
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,280
Speaker 3: just because I've been trying to work with existing people

633
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 3: and then it's frustrated for somebody who's as impatient as

634
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 3: I am.

635
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

636
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: Black Tech Green Money is a production to Blavity Afro

637
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: Tech on the Black Effect podcast Networking Night Hire Media.

638
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: It's produced by Morgan Debonne and me Well Lucas, with

639
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,480
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640
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,200
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641
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,000
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642
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00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,640
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644
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