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Speaker 1: The art world. It is essentially a money laundering business.

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Speaker 1: The best fakes are still hanging on people's walls. You know,

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Speaker 1: they don't even know or suspect that their fakes. I'm

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Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception, greed

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Speaker 1: and forgery in the art world. I just walked in

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Speaker 1: and saw this bright red painting presuming to be a Rothko.

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Speaker 1: Of course, art forgeries only happen because there's money to

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Speaker 1: be made, a lot of money. I'm listening to what

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Speaker 1: they're paying for these things. It was an incredible mans

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Speaker 1: of money. You knew the painting was fake. Um Listen

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Speaker 1: to Art Fraud starting February one on the I Heart

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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello,

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Speaker 1: I'm Anni Dry and on my podcast Many Questions, I

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Speaker 1: asked trailblazes across different disciplines the same seven questions. Questions

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Speaker 1: about the inflection points in their life, what they like

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Speaker 1: least about themselves, and what relationship has to find love

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Speaker 1: for them. This season, I'm coming back with new trailblazes

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Speaker 1: like Blondie vocalist Debbie Harry, journalist and television host Jeremy Clarkson,

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Speaker 1: editor in chief of Instar Magazine, Laura Brown and Creative

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Speaker 1: Juggernaut Goldie join me as we continue this exploration on

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Speaker 1: season two of many Questions on the I Heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Look

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Speaker 1: for your children's eyes and you will discover the true

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Speaker 1: magic of a forest. Find a forest near you and

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Speaker 1: start exploring it. Discover the Forest dot Org. Brought to

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Speaker 1: you by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Behind the Police, a production of I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: Now I Am become pod the Destroyer of casts. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to Behind the Bastards. This is Robert Evans trying

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Speaker 1: to trying a new style of introduction. This is actually

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Speaker 1: Behind the Police, our special mini series and Behind the

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Speaker 1: Bastards we talk about history's greatest bastards, American Police. Back

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Speaker 1: with me for part five of this six part series

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Speaker 1: is my co host Jason Petty, better known as the

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Speaker 1: hip hop artist Propaganda. Jason, how you doing man? So

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Speaker 1: man even dried mangoes and listening to old DJ Scratch

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Speaker 1: and I hope that like I hope, I'm sorry, guys,

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Speaker 1: I'm back man, I'm here again. Thanks God, all the variants. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're the first guest we've had for three straight weeks

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Speaker 1: or for two straight weeks. I think, Man, I like

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Speaker 1: I'm getting am I hitting like Billy Wayne like like like,

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Speaker 1: I mean you're hitting, You're hitting propaganda zone. I like that, man,

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Speaker 1: my own zone like zone. Yeah, like those like those

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Speaker 1: cow zone things that they used to make a pizza

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Speaker 1: I think it was pizza hut the zone. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: those were good. Yeah. Yo, can quick joke about quick

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Speaker 1: joke not quick Joe, quick story about cow zones? Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and we can move on there. So my homeboy Jose

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Speaker 1: with Solomon. He's probably one of the most gorgeous men

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Speaker 1: I've ever met. And uh he's a carmel six ft

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Speaker 1: six like soul singer poet. It's ridiculous. It's not fair.

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Speaker 1: You know, you never meet the guy where it's like,

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Speaker 1: it's just not fair. You shouldn't be No one should

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Speaker 1: be this beautiful. So that's Joe, right, Um, Joe lives

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta. He was ordering this pizza or he went

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Speaker 1: to this spot. You know it's during the quarantine. Wanted

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Speaker 1: a cow zone and you know, first of all, it's

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Speaker 1: it's Atlanta. You know this let's be real, this this

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Speaker 1: chocolate city. He's black people, right, and the whole shop

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Speaker 1: was black people. And he tries to get a cow

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Speaker 1: zone and he could tell, based on the way that

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Speaker 1: the lady was looking at him that she didn't know

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Speaker 1: what a cow zone was, right, So so he but

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Speaker 1: she still was like pressed a few buttons on the

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Speaker 1: screen and then you could see her look back at

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Speaker 1: the home. He's like, hey, hey, what's the right and

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Speaker 1: they kind of whisper it back and forth. You could

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Speaker 1: tell somebody must to google to cow zone. And then

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Speaker 1: he finally gets it, and then stupid him didn't open

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Speaker 1: the box till he got home. And he opened the

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Speaker 1: box and it was just a pizza fold that in half.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that is essentially that's the buddy part. I

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Speaker 1: was like, that is a cow zone, but that he

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Speaker 1: was like, you just folded a small pizza and half.

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Speaker 1: What else do you want? I mean, really, you know

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Speaker 1: what isn't like a cow zone? Prop the American policing, Yes,

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Speaker 1: the evolution of American policing in the nineteen hundreds is

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Speaker 1: not very much like a folded pizza. Uh thanks, unfortunate,

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Speaker 1: Thank the Lord of above. What if that's how we

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Speaker 1: handled law enforcement. What if when you had two feuding gangs,

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Speaker 1: the government just sent cow zones over and we're like, hey, guys, yo,

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Speaker 1: if you tried zones, some cow zones, a little bit

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Speaker 1: of barbecue, a couple of you know what I'm saying,

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Speaker 1: It's like, everybody, just sit down, Let's just have some

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Speaker 1: cow zones and some high links. I think a good

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Speaker 1: the problems of law enforcement. Like, instead of tear gassing

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Speaker 1: a bunch of protesters, what if the state provided cow zones,

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Speaker 1: I'd bewitted. Yeah, and it's cheaper too, I bet we'd

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Speaker 1: save money on tear gas and such because you can

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Speaker 1: buy you can feed a lot of people cow zones,

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Speaker 1: cal zones for the price of hundreds of tear gas canisters.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you something. And you know, it's less

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Speaker 1: to clean up, you know what I mean, It's easier

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Speaker 1: on the environment, create more jobs, creates more jobs. Look,

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Speaker 1: we just pods over. Thanks very much, guys. You know,

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Speaker 1: look forward to our new behind the cow Zone series.

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Speaker 1: Behind this idea of ours goes horribly wrong in a year. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the cow zone shot a kid. No one had ever

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Speaker 1: seen anything like it. Helted with a cow zone from

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Speaker 1: a cow zone and we'd have to deal. Okay. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: last week we dug into the really the very racist

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Speaker 1: roots of US policing, the KKK, Jim Crow lynching, and

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Speaker 1: the death penalty, and in doing so, we kind of

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Speaker 1: took a break from the broader history of how police

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Speaker 1: have evolved in this country and focused on like the

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Speaker 1: enabling of white supremacy in the suppression of black people

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Speaker 1: as an integral part of the justice system. And today

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Speaker 1: we're going to kind of peel back out again to

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Speaker 1: discuss how the broader system of police evolved in the

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Speaker 1: US over the last century to bring us to where

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Speaker 1: we are now, which is, you know, police stopping random

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Speaker 1: people for no reason, doing horrific violence to them h

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Speaker 1: and then being shielded from consequences by police unions. So

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Speaker 1: that's what we're going to explain today. Okay, cool, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there it is. This will be fun. We're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: a lot about police unions and a lot about stop

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Speaker 1: and frisk and broken windows. Okay, yeah, so those two

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Speaker 1: stobbing frizz gets to like my life. Yeah yeah. So

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Speaker 1: to get to that point, we have to you know,

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Speaker 1: zoom back a bit to the start of the twentieth century.

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Speaker 1: By the time this nation started entering, you know what

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Speaker 1: most people would call the modern era, most police departments

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Speaker 1: were de facto the enforcement arm of organized crime. In

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Speaker 1: the words of one scholar, so cops existed. We talked

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Speaker 1: about this in an episode two. Cops existed as muscle

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Speaker 1: for for criminal for like gang leaders and stuff. Police

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Speaker 1: departments engaged in constant election fraud because their jobs were

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Speaker 1: generally tied to the position of local political bosses who

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Speaker 1: are also gangsters. And during this period this is like

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Speaker 1: Tammany Hall and ship. And during this period, police drew salaries,

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Speaker 1: but there was no such thing as overtime, and their

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Speaker 1: salaries were generally shipped, so instead they took a lot

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Speaker 1: of bribes. Dr. Gary Potter, who's a historian of law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: insists that it's actually wrong to call the police in

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Speaker 1: this period corrupt. He writes, quote, they were in fact

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Speaker 1: primary instruments for the creation of corruption in the first place.

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Speaker 1: So like, the police aren't corrupt, the police create corruption

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Speaker 1: in this period, which is an interesting but I think

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Speaker 1: really important distinction to make me like actually took a second,

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Speaker 1: like yeah, dang, yeah, I need to lean back from

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Speaker 1: that one. For a little bit like that. That is profound. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Potter doesn't mince fucking words at all. Yeah. So, in

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, police departments in major major cities,

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Speaker 1: particularly in the Eastern Seaboard, but also Chicago, because Chicago

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Speaker 1: is a Midwestern city, but we all kind of lump

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Speaker 1: it in with the East Coast. We all do it,

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Speaker 1: even Chicago does sometimes when they're lazy, like deal with

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Speaker 1: the Chicago You should have moved further east if you

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Speaker 1: wanted to not be like do you have do you

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Speaker 1: get snowed in from a tunja? You're on the East Coast? Bro? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: thank you. So. Uh yeah, police apartments in major cities

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Speaker 1: in the Eastern Seaboard in the early nineteen hundred, uh

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Speaker 1: did a bit more than just provide muscle for gangsters

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Speaker 1: and crack the heads of labor organizers. Um. They also

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Speaker 1: got into the business because no one else was going

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Speaker 1: to do it, of what we'd call social welfare. Um.

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Speaker 1: It was kind of the job to take care of

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Speaker 1: the homeless and the critically ill. And they weren't good

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Speaker 1: at this, but police in Boston, New York and other

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Speaker 1: cities sheltered homeless people in precincts, they emptied public toilets,

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Speaker 1: and they kept track of the infected during epidemics. Now,

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Speaker 1: since again these men were at the time hired gangsters,

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Speaker 1: they were not renowned for taking to these tasks with

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Speaker 1: a great deal of empathy. But nobody else really gave

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Speaker 1: a ship. They didn't give a sh it either, But

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Speaker 1: they were kind of the people you gave the bad

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Speaker 1: jobs to. Again, not a lot of respect for law

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Speaker 1: enforcement in this period, so they're like, we need somebody

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Speaker 1: to like pull the homeless people off the streets so

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Speaker 1: they don't freeze to death. Have the cops do it? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So it was prohibition that finally tipped law enforcement over

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Speaker 1: the edge, uh like over the edge of of of

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Speaker 1: creators of corruption to um so outwardly criminal that the

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Speaker 1: state had to like that the federal government had to

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Speaker 1: do something about the sheer scale of corruption unleashed by prohibition,

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Speaker 1: and like the era of speakeasies and gangsters turned police

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Speaker 1: departments into, you know, whatever they had been before, a

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Speaker 1: complete mockery of law and order and federal authority is

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Speaker 1: pushed reform and investigatory commissions that had to look into

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Speaker 1: a variety of different scandals Dr Potter lays out just

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Speaker 1: a few examples of police crime that inspired the creation

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Speaker 1: of commissions. Quote number one, the formation of our prostitution

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Speaker 1: syndicate by Los Angeles Mayor Arthur Harper, police Chief Edward

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Speaker 1: Kerns and a local organized crime figure, combined with subsequent

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Speaker 1: instructions to the police to harass the syndicates competitors in

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Speaker 1: the prostitution industry. Number two the assassination of organized crime

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Speaker 1: figure Arthur Rothstein by police Lieutenant Charles Becker ahead of

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Speaker 1: the NYPDS Vice Squad. And number three a dispute between

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Speaker 1: the Mayor and District Attorney of Philadelphia, each of whom

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Speaker 1: controlled rival gambling syndicates, and each of whom used loyal

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Speaker 1: factions of police to harass the other. So like, these

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Speaker 1: are just a couple of examples of the sort of

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Speaker 1: behavior police departments are engaging in at the time where

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Speaker 1: they're they're they're just they're even like more criminal than

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Speaker 1: a lot of the criminal syndicates. Um, yeah, yeah. And

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Speaker 1: another investigative commission that said up during this period with

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Speaker 1: a LINUX Committee, which was formed to look into the

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Speaker 1: charges of police extortion in New York. It found that

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Speaker 1: promotion within the NYPD and the early I and hundreds

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Speaker 1: was based entirely on direct bribes paid by officers to

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Speaker 1: the Department of Promotion to sergeant cost six, promotion to

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Speaker 1: captain cost fifteen thousand dollars, all of these scamper and

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Speaker 1: many Yeah. Yeah, he would just pay to get promoted

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Speaker 1: in the police. Yeah. Yeah. It's just it's just so

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Speaker 1: crazy that, like, I mean, as much as you want

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Speaker 1: to believe that like, throughout the course of time we

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Speaker 1: have gotten somehow, in some way better at being the

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Speaker 1: species we are, it's just I just the more you

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Speaker 1: know of history, the more you're like, no, we've kind

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Speaker 1: of been a plateaued. We've kind of just always been

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Speaker 1: like this, you know. And that's the part that just

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Speaker 1: like no, but because because I'm thinking about like I'm

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Speaker 1: still hanging on the word on the on the phrase

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Speaker 1: of like it created the collection, because I'm going, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you don't pay him a lot, You're i

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Speaker 1: am incentivized. You're like, like you're just hoping these people

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Speaker 1: would somehow not have the same corrupted soul as the

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Speaker 1: rest of the people. But they just people, and they're

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Speaker 1: gonna find the path of least resistance. The quickest way

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Speaker 1: to get a buck and the best way to like

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Speaker 1: push other people down for their own success. I don't

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Speaker 1: know why you think putting a badge on a chess

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Speaker 1: gonna make them any different. So when you hear this

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Speaker 1: stuff like this, I'm just like, God, dog, it was it?

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Speaker 1: Were we ever? Have we ever done good things? Well? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's there's a I forget who the name

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Speaker 1: of the individual who it was, but there I believe

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Speaker 1: it was a Holocaust survivor and he wrote something to

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Speaker 1: the He had a quote that was something along the

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Speaker 1: lines of and like any given period of time, like

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Speaker 1: ten percent of people are genuinely good, ten percent of

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Speaker 1: people are total monsters, and about eight percent could kind

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Speaker 1: of go either way, depend on where it's seeing how

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Speaker 1: it seems the wind is blowing, um and like if

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Speaker 1: the wind is, you know, blowing in the way that

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Speaker 1: like if if everyone in charge is literally running a

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Speaker 1: criminal syndicate of like prostitution and and like and probably

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Speaker 1: a lot of forced prostitution and like gambling and like

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Speaker 1: murder for higher and all this stuff, if that's everybody,

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Speaker 1: then yeah, that's what you get involved with. Like then

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Speaker 1: like okay, well I'll find some way to make money

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Speaker 1: within the system. It's the ocean. It's still so you

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Speaker 1: just kind of like do it because that's I mean,

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Speaker 1: you gotta swim, Yeah, you gotta swim. Yeah. So uh.

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Speaker 1: The current Committee of nineteen thirteen investigated in hypd collusion

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Speaker 1: and gambling and prostitution. The Seabury Committee in nineteen thirty

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Speaker 1: one also looked into the NYPD, this time into the

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Speaker 1: broader system of bosses and bribery for political positions that

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Speaker 1: was the core of why New York law enforcement sucked.

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Speaker 1: Each of these commissions made changes, but right up until

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Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties there were still regular inquiries into police

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Speaker 1: involvement with gambling, prostitution, and organized crime. And I cannot

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Speaker 1: exaggerate how many of these committees were focused on the NYPD. Like,

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Speaker 1: one way to look at the twentieth century is the

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Speaker 1: federal government fighting tooth and nail to stop New York

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Speaker 1: police from being just a criminal enterprise like that took

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Speaker 1: decades of battling. Yeah, not metaphorically, not as a way

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Speaker 1: to understand what's happening. No, seriously, they're just no, they're

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Speaker 1: pimps with badges. Yeah, that's just what they actually are,

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Speaker 1: And while I was googling around, I wanted to kind

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Speaker 1: of come up with another example or two, like the

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Speaker 1: direct one of the NYPD, you know, being pimps or

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Speaker 1: whatnot in the early nineteen hundreds. And it was actually

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Speaker 1: hard because there were so many cases of them in

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Speaker 1: the twenty first century doing the exact same thing. For example,

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Speaker 1: I was googling around on this I came across the

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Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen story about a retired NYPD detective who

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Speaker 1: ran a two million dollar broadle ring using active cops,

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Speaker 1: his muscle, and his inside knowledge of how department undercovers

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Speaker 1: did prostitution stings. In order to avoid getting busted. He

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Speaker 1: knew that like undercovers, weren't allowed to show their genitals

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Speaker 1: to prostitutes, so he would make all of the johns

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Speaker 1: strip naked and let themselves get fondled before starting the transaction. Um,

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Speaker 1: because that helped him avoid getting busted by the NYPD. UM. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there were seven active duty officers who worked for his

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Speaker 1: prostitution ring. UM. One of them was actually willing to

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Speaker 1: work for free in exchange for discounts with his favorite prostitute.

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Speaker 1: So again, two eighteen is when that gets busted. Regular scumbags.

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Speaker 1: It's awesome, regular dudes just being normal scumbags. Yeah. It's

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Speaker 1: like someone decided, like, Okay, let's take ten percent of

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Speaker 1: the normal scumbag population and make them immune to being

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Speaker 1: punished if they shoot someone. Yes, uh so. Yeah. While

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Speaker 1: the federal government was fighting to make the NYPD a

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Speaker 1: modestly less criminal enterprise, a major revolution had started to

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Speaker 1: overtake law enforcement nationwide, and it started on the West Coast.

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Speaker 1: Luminaries in that part of the country began to wonder

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Speaker 1: if perhaps police officers ought not be trained professionals instead

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Speaker 1: of drunken gangsters. And the the first real apostle of

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Speaker 1: this gospel was a dude named August Volmer. He was

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Speaker 1: the very first police chief of Berkeley, California, and he

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Speaker 1: served from nineteen o nine to nineteen thirty one. Um

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Speaker 1: and this, this guy is about the best cop you're

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Speaker 1: gonna find in US history. Um from yeah, from every

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Speaker 1: he did have, Like his early history, he was in

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Speaker 1: part of like the U. S occupation of the Philippines.

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Speaker 1: But he was like a like a gun boat he

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Speaker 1: worked on like a gunboat. Like I'm sure he like

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Speaker 1: he was part of, you know, the US crimes in

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Speaker 1: the Philippines. But he wasn't. It's not like a case

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Speaker 1: with John Burge, Like I have no evidence that he

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Speaker 1: was like running secret prisons and torturing people. Like he

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Speaker 1: was just a soldier who fought in a bad war. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then he became the police chief in Berkeley, and

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Speaker 1: when he took the job, Berkeley police were justice corrupt

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Speaker 1: as New York police. August only had a sixth grade education,

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Speaker 1: but he knew enough to immediately ban the receipt of

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Speaker 1: gifts and bribes for his officers, Like that was the

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Speaker 1: first thing he did, was like, viously, you can't take

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Speaker 1: bribes anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah, again sixth grade education said

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, well we gotta stop doing this. Probably not

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Speaker 1: do that. Huh what if what if we weren't just gangsters? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I tried to do the job guys. Yeah what what

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Speaker 1: if we treated it like a job. Yeah, And he was.

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Speaker 1: He's really it's baffling the number of first this guy

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Speaker 1: is responsible for in law enforcement. He was the first

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Speaker 1: police chief to put cops on bicycles in nineteen ten.

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Speaker 1: He was the first police chief to put cops on

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Speaker 1: motorcycles in nineteen eleven. His officers received the very first

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Speaker 1: radios and their squad cars. Vulmer's apartment created the first

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Speaker 1: centralized police record system, and he was the first chief

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Speaker 1: in the United States to push his officers to use blood,

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Speaker 1: fiber and soil analysis to solve crimes. He was one

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Speaker 1: of the first chiefs to use fingerprinting of Volmer was

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Speaker 1: also the first chief to require college degrees of his officers.

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Speaker 1: He was one of the first police chiefs to hire

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Speaker 1: black cops, although not the first, but he was the

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Speaker 1: very first police chief to hire female off posers in

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Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen August was also the first police chief in

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Speaker 1: the US to explicitly banned the use of the third degree,

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Speaker 1: and he was a lifetime opponent of capital punishment. Um.

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Speaker 1: He was notorious and fairly unique among lawmen in this

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Speaker 1: period for believing that communists had a right to organize

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Speaker 1: and state their views without being beaten into bloody pulse.

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Speaker 1: This guy, Yeah, he's the best cop we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about. Like, I am impressed, bro. Like you know,

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Speaker 1: you see him ride by in his little like big

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Speaker 1: big front wheel, little silly silly police car, silly bike.

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Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. Like the old school, old

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Speaker 1: timey Victorian bike. But he's a cop, and that guy

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Speaker 1: you salute like, hey, what's up, officer? You know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: trying yeah, at least trying yeah. And now he was

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Speaker 1: also one of the very first, like people anywhere to

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Speaker 1: teach classes in criminal justice, essentially like helping to invent

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Speaker 1: that field of higher education. Like he was one of

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Speaker 1: the first people to be like, we should probably have

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Speaker 1: college classes that help people do this thing. That's the job. Um.

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Speaker 1: And one of his students was a dude named O. W. Wilson.

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Speaker 1: And O. W. Wilson went on to become the police

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Speaker 1: chief of Fullerton. He was also the police chief of

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Speaker 1: Jesus somewhere in the Midwest. I forget where where else

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Speaker 1: he was the police chief, and he was in California, California. UM.

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Speaker 1: And he was also the superintendent of the Chicago p

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Speaker 1: D at one point, so he was a very influential

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Speaker 1: like running police departments guy. UM. And he wrote a

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Speaker 1: book called Police Administration in nineteen forty three, and this

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Speaker 1: was sort of a reaction to how most cops in

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Speaker 1: big cities were drunken gangsters. UM. And it basically O. W. Wilson,

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Speaker 1: you know who was the protege of Valmer is like,

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Speaker 1: we need to professionalize police departments nationwide. Um and Wilson

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Speaker 1: wanted police departments to be centralized and reformed along military

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Speaker 1: style lines. This helped departments to keep a closer eye

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Speaker 1: on their officers and stop them from, you know, just

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Speaker 1: selling bootleg liquor or whatever. So you can see the

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Speaker 1: logic and what Wilson was trying to do, right, it

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Speaker 1: makes it makes sense, Yeah, makes sense. But it didn't work, um,

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Speaker 1: or it didn't work well. Yeah. For one thing, his

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Speaker 1: drive towards centralization created powerful, unaccountable, authoritarian police bureaucracies that

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Speaker 1: were both unaccountable to the public and to the officers

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Speaker 1: that worked there. Racist and sexist hiring practices were never reformed,

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Speaker 1: and so these dictatorial police bureaucrats were basically just white dudes. Um.

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Speaker 1: Samuel Walker, a professor of criminal justice in Nebraska, notes

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Speaker 1: that quote, a half century of professionalization had created police

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Speaker 1: departments that were vast bureaucracies, inward looking and isolated from

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Speaker 1: the public, and defensive in the face of any criticism,

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Speaker 1: which does not sound familiar at all. Um, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: can't win with these guys, Like, yeah, every time you

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Speaker 1: wanted like I want to be like, oh yeah, what's good. Oh, well,

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Speaker 1: there it is. It never quite works out right, like

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Speaker 1: they always seem to keep sucking, even when you deal

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Speaker 1: with what you think are the the the problems, which

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Speaker 1: maybe hints that the problem is at the root of

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Speaker 1: what we have police for um, as opposed to them

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Speaker 1: needing bicycles, which not that. Yeah, yeah, my, my my.

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Speaker 1: I remember one of my my elementary school teacher used

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Speaker 1: to say, hey, if every place you touch on your

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Speaker 1: body hurts, your fingers probably broken. So yeah, that's why

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Speaker 1: I just think about I'm just like, maybe your fingers broken, guys,

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Speaker 1: maybe the finger is broken. Yeah, good, good, good way

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Speaker 1: to describe that. Never forgot that, Ms Deirfield. So um,

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Speaker 1: what's worse is that Wilson, like his mentor mentor volmer Um,

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Speaker 1: both of whom I think had good intentions, had seized

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Speaker 1: upon the idea that police should focus on crime prevention

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Speaker 1: rather than just investigation. Now this was not a new idea,

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Speaker 1: and again you can see the logic and trying to

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Speaker 1: prevent crime, but the way that it worked out in

396
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Speaker 1: the real world is that these new professional, centralized police

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Speaker 1: departments suddenly started devoting a lot more time to sending

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Speaker 1: cops out on patrol to stop and search people at random.

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Speaker 1: Most of these people were members of the dangerous classes,

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Speaker 1: which at that point were mostly racial minorities in the

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Speaker 1: United States. You know, the Irish weren't really being oppressed

402
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Speaker 1: no more. But bring that. Yeah. As we've discussed, police

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Speaker 1: had always worked to corral and control the movement and

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Speaker 1: freedom of non white people. Wilson's reforms helped to dress

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Speaker 1: that up as crime prevention. So now the cops aren't

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Speaker 1: out there to keep you know, black people in line.

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Speaker 1: They're there to patrol for criminal behavior, which in which

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Speaker 1: they do the same thing, but it's harder to complain

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Speaker 1: about if you're a white Liberals got some better codes, yeah, exactly,

410
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Speaker 1: better codes. Yeah, And I don't think that was Wilson's intent,

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Speaker 1: but that's what happened. Um. Now, actual police officers weren't

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Speaker 1: much happier than the general public with these reforms. Their

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Speaker 1: resentment at their unaccountable, distant and all powerful bosses helped

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Speaker 1: to inspire a growing movement to unionize police departments. Now,

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Speaker 1: police in many cities had long sought the benefits of unionization,

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Speaker 1: but since a huge part of their literal job was

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Speaker 1: busting unions and murdering union organizers. This was a tough

418
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Speaker 1: needle to thread. It's a little a little conflicted here,

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Speaker 1: Yeah are we are we killing these people for the

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Speaker 1: same thing we think is a good idea for Oh yeah,

421
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Speaker 1: well fuck it. Yeah. So cops in some cities started

422
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Speaker 1: to form fraternal associations in order to try to gain

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Speaker 1: some of the same benefits of unions while also not

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Speaker 1: feeling like complete hypocrites for murder unions. Yeah, this did

425
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 1: not work out well forever. These fraternal organizations just didn't.

426
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 1: Associations just didn't do what unions do. The first department

427
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 1: to seek straight up unionization was the Cleveland Police in

428
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: eight uh. They petitioned to the American Federation of Labor,

429
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 1: whose president Samuel Gompers turned them down, stating it is

430
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: not within the province of the trade union movement to

431
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: especially organized policemen, nor more than to organize militiamen, as

432
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: both policemen and militiamen are often controlled by forces in

433
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 1: imical to the labor movement. So like, it's not our job,

434
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: like you kill us, we're not going to let you

435
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: join us to make more money to kill us. Yeah. Yeah,

436
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:54,640
Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, you want me to help you be

437
00:23:54,640 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 1: better at stopping us? Yeah, no, yeah, no, sir. Yeah,

438
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: it's kind of like buying oil from countries you're at

439
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: war with and I'm sorry, yeah, or like partnering with

440
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 1: Nazis over single payer healthcare and ignoring the fact that

441
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: they're also in favor of Nazi ship because like what

442
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: if we worked and no, don't work together with no,

443
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: want to kill you. Yeah, you don't want to do that.

444
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: Don't work with them ever, even if they're right about

445
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 1: one thing, like cops are right, workers should unionize, but

446
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: that's like still still yeah, there's still problems. Yes, So

447
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: cops continued to seek the benefits of union membership even

448
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 1: whilst violently suppressing unions. In nineteen nineteen, Boston's police asked

449
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: the a f L for a charter, angry at, among

450
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: other things, the fact that they had to pay for

451
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: their own uniforms. The commissioner told them that they couldn't

452
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: unionize in the a f L wasn't exactly a big

453
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 1: fan either, um. But when they unionized anyway, nineteen union

454
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: organizers were fired and the police went on strike. This

455
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: is the first police strike with nearly fifteen hundred officers

456
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: off the job. The people of Boston took the opportunity

457
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 1: salute the ever loving ship out of their city, and

458
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 1: I would suggest we look at this less as a

459
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: sign of human nature and more of a sign of

460
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 1: Bostonian nature. Uh. Yeah, that sounds like I was gonna say,

461
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: this sounds really Boston. That sounds real Boston. Yeah, we'll

462
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: talk about another time when this happened later and there

463
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 1: wasn't mass looting. So I'm going to write this up

464
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: to Boston. Um. Now, this all prompted Governor Calvin Coolidge

465
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: to declare that no public safety workers could strike anywhere, anytime,

466
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: and his hard stance on this as part of what

467
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: helped him become president later. Wait, he's saying, nope, what

468
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: was he What was his position then when he said

469
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 1: the public safety workers should never be able to stroll?

470
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 1: Was he? No? I'm saying, what was the office he hilled?

471
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: Oh he was the governor, he was the government. Point.

472
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 1: So wait, so he was saying, y'are not allowed to strike,

473
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yeah, okay, that's stupid because that's the

474
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: definition of striking. Is like, so even the problem that's

475
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: like the Emancipation Proclamation. I'm like, oh, you've been a

476
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 1: set free to slaves in the states that are rebelling,

477
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: like you what ha, So I'm just sorry just him

478
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: make and the proflamation just like sounded so stupid. I'm like,

479
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: that's striking means we're not listening to you. Yeah. Yeah.

480
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: But there's also the question of whether or not the

481
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: government can stop a strike. Like if a bunch of J. C.

482
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: Penny's workers or whatever unionized and they go on strike,

483
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: there's the federal government can't do anything about that. But

484
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 1: it's why like when um, when the fucking uh air

485
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: traffic controllers what like, they're like, no, we we will

486
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: criminally punish these people because their jobs are like, we

487
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: can't have a society without their jobs, so we can't

488
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: let them strike. That's the idea. I'm not defending that,

489
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: but that's the justification. So it's not as it's not

490
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: as preposterous as I first thought. Okay, it is not

491
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: like there's an I don't necessarily agree with it, but

492
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 1: there's an argument to be made that like, okay, well

493
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 1: but if all of the E m T s go

494
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: on strike, um, people will die. But also like I

495
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: don't necessarily not saying that I don't think he em

496
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: should be able to strike and saying it's different than

497
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 1: just like miners going on strike or what. That's what

498
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: I'm saying. It's like, at least I don't necessarily condone it,

499
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: but at least it's not it's not a ridiculous statement.

500
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: It is a it is a thing that we should

501
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 1: have debated as a nation. Um, Yeah, because it is different.

502
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 1: So yeah. The Coolidge's stance was more or less the

503
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: last word on police unions and police striking in particular,

504
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 1: until the nineteen fifties and the professionalization of police departments.

505
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: These years were the heyday for unions elsewhere in the country,

506
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: and cops watched jealously as the now aging workers they'd

507
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: spent years tear gassing reap to the benefits of collective

508
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: bargating fraternal orders proved incapable of gaining officers the wages

509
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: and benefits that they thought they deserved. So in the

510
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: early nineteen sixties, police started engaging in slowdowns, starting in

511
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: New York by nineteen and this is where they wouldn't strike,

512
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: but they wouldn't do most of the things. Cops are

513
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: supposed to do so they would, you know, they were saying, like,

514
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: if the people are getting murdered, will step in there.

515
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 1: But like we're not going to stop petty crime. Yeah,

516
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that in a little bit, Sophie, because

517
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: this happens real recently. Um. By nineteen sixty four, they

518
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 1: had you know, piste off the people in charge, the

519
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: people with money, um by not enforcing like minor bullshit

520
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: enough that the mayor and the police commissioner were willing

521
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 1: to go to the table. In exchange for giving up

522
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: any right to strike, the Patrolman's Benevolent Association was made

523
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,719
Speaker 1: a union. It was given the ability to act as

524
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: a collective bargaining agent for the city police. Upon becoming

525
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 1: a full union, the p b A moved immediately to

526
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: what would become its true purpose, protecting cops from any

527
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: kind of accountability for their own actions. In nineteen sixty six,

528
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: the new mayor of New York sat down with the

529
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: Congress for Racial Equality, who had some serious complaints about

530
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: police misconduct towards black New Yorkers. The mayor agreed to

531
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: add four civilian members to the Civilian Complaint Review Board,

532
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: which had previously consisted of three cops. The p b

533
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: A fought this viciously, holding a five thousand member picket

534
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: line in opposition to the idea of giving civilians any

535
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: say and how their police functioned and going to quote

536
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: next from an article in The New Yorker. The p

537
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: b A then organized a public referendum aimed at eliminating

538
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: the board. It put up posters showing a young white

539
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: woman exiting a subway and heading onto a dark, deserted street.

540
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: The Civilian Review Board must be stopped. The poster read,

541
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: her life, Your life may depend on it. Here we go.

542
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: A police officer must not hesitate. If he does, the

543
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: security and safety of your family maybe jeopardize. You. See

544
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: what they're arguing there is Yeah, yeah, if if you

545
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: let civilians watch what we do, we might not kill

546
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: the dangerous non white people threatening white women fast like

547
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: that's what that's that's what they're saying. Yeah, there's the weapon,

548
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: there's the weapon, there's there's the gold, there's the tool. Kid.

549
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: But are but we have to protect our women. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,

550
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: like that, we have to. I enjoyed that. You know

551
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: what else I enjoy Robert? You know what won't protect

552
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: white No, no, okay, um ship that was a bad

553
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: way to lead into this. You know what supports police accountability?

554
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: UM and things that we can have safe subways without

555
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: unaccountable heavily armed maniacs productor yeah, they all all of

556
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: the art world. It is essentially a money laundering business.

557
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: The best fakes are still hanging off people's walls. You

558
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: know they don't even know or suspect that their fakes.

559
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: I'm at like Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception, greed,

560
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: and forgery in the art world. You knew the painting

561
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: was fake. Um. Listen to Art Fraud starting February one

562
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

563
00:30:51,080 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Unker your New Year's resolution to

564
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: be more productive with the Before Breakfast podcast. In each

565
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: bite sized daily episode, time management and productivity expert Laura

566
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: vander Camp teaches you how to make the most of

567
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: your time, both at work and at home. These are

568
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: the practical suggestions you need to get more done with

569
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: your day. Just as lifting weights keeps our body strong

570
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: as we age, learning new skills is the mental equivalent

571
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: of pumping iron. Listen to Before Breakfast wherever you get

572
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,239
Speaker 1: your podcasts, make sure to check out Drink Champs, your

573
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: number one music podcast. On the Black Effect podcast Network,

574
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: hosts n O r E and d J E f

575
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: N sat down with artists and icon Yea, which Vulture

576
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: called one most significant interviews. I literally had to go

577
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: like Thanos and I don't want to have to be

578
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: the villain. But when I went and did the Donda thing,

579
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: they returned and abody had to sit back and watch

580
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: the real leader. Check out Drink Champs conversation with Yea

581
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: and many more legendary artists each and every Friday on

582
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: the Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

583
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. We're back. It's good to know,

584
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: as a side, No, it's good to know that these

585
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: like abysmal transitions are actually natural. Like it's not it's

586
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: not a stick. You're not like trying to be you

587
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: know aloof Yeah, you're really you're really doing this. Yeah.

588
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: I I decided long ago never to learn how to

589
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: do fully half of my job. Um, it's the it's

590
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: to maintain authenticity, right, Yeah, that's exactly it. It's to

591
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: maintain authenticity. That's how I justify not learning how to

592
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: do large portions of my job. Yeah, it's called it's

593
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: called brand it's brand protection. I get it, exactly. It's

594
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: just like if you find like icola in your meat,

595
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: It's like, listen, it's organic. Okay, we don't use pesticides.

596
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: Yeah you might, you might get batu is um, but

597
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: organic botulism. It's organic. Y Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. So. Yeah.

598
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: When we last left off, the New York City Police

599
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty six had put up some real racy

600
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: posters um arguing about why they shouldn't let civilians tell

601
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: them not to murder people, and as the vote on

602
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: whether or not to establish this review board approached, the

603
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: PBA's president, John cassisse Um declared, I'm sick and tired

604
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: of giving into minority groups with their whims and gripes

605
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: and shouting oh man real physically yeah, I physically responded

606
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: to that. Yeah. Yeah, y'all always complaining, yeah that you

607
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: don't like us shooting you. You want some saying whether

608
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: or not we shoot you with the bullets you help buy? Yes?

609
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: Can I just do my job? That's literally all we're

610
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: asking is just that you do your job. Yeah, please,

611
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: yeah please? Um. So around the country cops elsewhere, So

612
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: how good a job the NYPD had done, a winning

613
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: better pay for themselves and sticking a thumb in the

614
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: eye of those pesky minorities who felt like someone should

615
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: stop them from Yeah. Uh. Police unionization spread throughout the continents,

616
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: and over the years, police unions bargained for a hell

617
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: of a lot more than just increased wages. Starting in

618
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: New York but spreading quickly over the nation, many police

619
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: union contracts began requiring departments to a race officer disciplinary

620
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: records after a set period of time. And this kind

621
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: of gets to the chief problem of police unions. They

622
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: act in the interest of officers. And obviously unions are

623
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: supposed to act into the interests of workers, but a

624
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: lot of times because of the kind of people who

625
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: become police officers, uh, the interests of the officers means

626
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 1: acting against the interests of general society. So if, for example,

627
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 1: a minor or a grocery store employee, or uh, any

628
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: other kind of worker really gets more money, that might

629
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: be against the interests of the people who own stock

630
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 1: in the company you know, of the capital holding class

631
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: of like like of of the people who you know,

632
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: the the executives at the top who have to take

633
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 1: pay cuts. You can argue that's against their interest, um,

634
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: but they don't. If a if somebody who works like

635
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: they're not able to like the fucking A union representing

636
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: grocery store employees doesn't make it impossible for you to

637
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: tell which grocery store employees are stabbing people, because grocery

638
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 1: store employees don't do that, and when they do, they

639
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: tend to go to prison and stop working at the

640
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: nobody nobody. The unions don't rush in to be like no, no, no,

641
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: you have to keep employing this man all he did

642
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: with stab three people, Like yeah, I'm like that the

643
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 1: union doesn't protect you from being from sucking at your job, right,

644
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 1: I mean it does a little bit, Like that's a

645
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 1: that's a fair argument that like unions keep people sometimes,

646
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: like teachers who are bad at teaching stay on. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

647
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: fair fair enough. But like the point, going back to

648
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: your analogy, I'm like, you can't just lick the apples

649
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: and then be like, yo, my union protects me because

650
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: I got a right to lick the apples, And I'm like, no, you,

651
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: I don't know why that's not your function, like you know,

652
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: I think, and just going back to the police, I'm like,

653
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: you know what, dude, you have a hard job. You

654
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 1: should be paid. Well, you're right, you should be paid. Well,

655
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: you have a hard job. But what is not your

656
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: job is being another gang in our neighborhoods and terrorizing

657
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: people to color. That's not your job. You should not

658
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: be protected for doing that. That's what unions protect them for.

659
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: Instead of just being like, oh, well, we're workers too,

660
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: and we should be able to advocate for higher paid,

661
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: they're like, and also if we beat someone, we should

662
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: be able to hide that from the public. Um, that's

663
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: what happens almost immediately with you don't get to you don't.

664
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,399
Speaker 1: That's not one of your perks. Okay, yeah, yeah, that's

665
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: the biggest perk. So yeah. Two thousand seventeen, Reuter's special

666
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 1: report on police union contracts and eight two US cities

667
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: found that most departments are now required to a ace

668
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: officer disciplinary records after a set period of time. Sometimes

669
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: officers records are purged every six months. Eighteen cities expunge

670
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: suspensions in three years or less. Reuters found that nearly

671
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 1: half a police union contracts guaranteed officers accused of bad

672
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: behavior the right to see their entire investigative file, including

673
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: witness statements made against them. What their what I wonder

674
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 1: what their defense for that is, because we know exactly

675
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 1: what you're doing. But what what's their argument for that? Oh,

676
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: you know, you shouldn't Uh, you shouldn't know. It's not

677
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: fair for anyone to be charged with a crime without

678
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: you know, getting to see the claims made by their accusers,

679
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: unless those people are charging the police, are being charged

680
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: by the police of a crime, and then there's actually

681
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: all sorts of ways we have to hide that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

682
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: dissonance is cognitive Yeah, so um yeah. Few developments in

683
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: US policing have had quite the impact that unionization has had.

684
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: Dr rob Gilzoh, an assistant professor of economics at the

685
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: University of Victoria, took to Twitter at the end of

686
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: this May when the Uprising started to give a summary

687
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: of some of his still unpublished research on the impact

688
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: of police bargaining rights on the killing of civilians, and

689
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: he noted, quote, what are we finding so far? The

690
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: introduction of access to collective bargaining drives a modest declient

691
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: in policy, employment and increase in compensation. With no meaningful

692
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: impacts on total crime, violent crime, property crime, or officers

693
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: killed in the line of duty, what does change. We

694
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: find a substantial increase in police killings of civilians over

695
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: the medium to long run, So there is we will continue.

696
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: There's a lot more evidence than just that that that

697
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: the mugionization specifically leads to more police killings of civilians. Now,

698
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: Guilso goes on to note that the overwhelming majority of

699
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: these added deaths are non white people. Okay, yep, I

700
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: mean yeah. Quote, if access to a union simply shifted

701
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: the marginal decision for officers to shoot in risky situations,

702
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: you would expect to see increases in killings of both

703
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: whites and non whites. But that is not what we're

704
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: finding at all. Rather, and with the caveat that this

705
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: is still very early work, it looks like collective bargaining

706
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: rights are being used to protect the ability of officers

707
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: to discriminate and the disproportionate use of force against the

708
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: non white population. Again, a big part of this issue

709
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,479
Speaker 1: is that white supremacy is baked into the very soul

710
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: of u AS policing. So even though police unions didn't

711
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: come into the picture until a hundred years after slavery ended,

712
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: A lot of the cops, most of the cops working

713
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: in the police at that time were racist as hell,

714
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: and so police unions immediately turned to the task of

715
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 1: enshrining and protecting racial violence from law and enforcement, and

716
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: that has remained a part of them ever since. Other

717
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: research is consistently borne out similar conclusions. A two thou

718
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 1: eighteen University of Oxford study if the hundred largest American

719
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: cities found that protections and police contracts were directly and

720
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: positively correlated with police violence against citizens. A two thousand

721
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: nineteen University of Chicago study found that when collective bargaining

722
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: rights were given to Florida sheriff's deputies, it led to

723
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: a statewide increase in violent misconduct by deputies. Got dot. God,

724
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 1: when okay, it's the stuff that you that you can

725
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 1: into it, into it and know, and then when you

726
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:28,479
Speaker 1: see the actual numbers, it's still like you still throw

727
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: up in your mouth a little, you know, because it's

728
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: like you're like, that's why I keep trying to say.

729
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, I mean I know that, but now

730
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: that I'm looking at it on paper or listening to

731
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: someone go no, here, here it is no, you're right,

732
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: got dog. It's still just so infuriating and exhausting that

733
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: despite all these receipts that you're you're showing, we still

734
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: have to explain to people that there's a problem. If

735
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: if a new type of if a new type of

736
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 1: hybrid engine came out, and we found out year in

737
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: that it led to at increase in vehicle explosions during

738
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: like vendor benders, not only would that product be pulled

739
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: from the market, people would probably go to jail, They

740
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:19,760
Speaker 1: would get prosecuted. Whoever, four out of ten people gone

741
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 1: down when we drive this thing. Yeah yeah, we would

742
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: at least try, at least try yeah. Yeah. So much

743
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: of the violets caused by police unions can be blamed

744
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: on the fact that they make it as hard as

745
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: possible to fire dangerously unhinged and violent officers. And I'm

746
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 1: gonna quite again from the New Yorker here. Other studies

747
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,800
Speaker 1: revealed that many existing mechanisms for disciplining police are toothless

748
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: w b Easy, a Chicago radio station, found that between

749
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: two thousand seven and two thousand fifteen, Chicago's Independent Police

750
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: Review Authority investigated four shootings by police and deemed the

751
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: officers justified in all but two incidents. Since two thousand twelve,

752
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,720
Speaker 1: when Minneapolis replaced its Civilian Review Board with an Office

753
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 1: of the Police Misconduct Review, the public is filed more

754
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 1: than misconduct complaints, yet only twelve resulted in a police

755
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: officer being punished. The most severe penalty a forty hours suspension.

756
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: When the St. Paul Pioneer Press reviewed appeals involving terminations suspension, Yes, yeah,

757
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: When the St. Paul Pioneer Press reviewed appeals involving terminations

758
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: from two fourteen to two nineteen, it discovered that arbitrators

759
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 1: ruled in favor of the discharged police and correction officers

760
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: and ordered them reinstated forty six percent of the time.

761
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: Non law enforcement workers were reinstated at a similar rate.

762
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: And again that's the point that like normal unions do

763
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 1: work this way as well, but they're not representing people

764
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: who have the right to shoot people. For those demanding

765
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: more accountability, a large obstacle is that disciplinary actions are

766
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: often overturned if an arbitrator finds that the penalty in

767
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: the department meeted out is tougher than it wasn't. A

768
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: similar previous case, no matter if the penalty in the

769
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: previous case was far too lenient. Dude, So where's the

770
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: like the trope like, because I'm thinking I'm thinking the

771
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: movie trope of like Pulaski badge and gun, like the

772
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 1: chief is like, give me your badge and gun, you're

773
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,879
Speaker 1: on leave, right and then but the guys such one

774
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: tough cop, but he still investigates the crime. I'm like,

775
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,879
Speaker 1: it don't sound like I don't know where y'all got

776
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: that from, because it sound to me like, you know,

777
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: I'm said, I'm rambling, but I'm trying to just like

778
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: where did so where did that come from? Then? Where

779
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,800
Speaker 1: is the like? Yeah, yeah, you know, if this is

780
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: actually what we're getting into, because it turns out that

781
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: it is accurate that a lot of the times police

782
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 1: chiefs hate and try to fire their worst than most

783
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 1: dangerous officers, and police unions make that impossible. That's actually

784
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, I'm I'm leaning into it, okay. Yeah,

785
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 1: and again this is like, like I'm sure that there

786
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: are fucking people in unions who work at tire factories

787
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: or whatever who are bad at their jobs, get fired

788
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: and the union gives them their job back and like

789
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: that probably is a pain in the ask for some

790
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: of the people they work around. But again they don't

791
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, guy ain't gonna shoot me. You ain't

792
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: gonna put his knee on my nick. Yeah, which is

793
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: to say that, like there aren't some problems with other unions,

794
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 1: but like it's really a problem with the police. Um. Yeah.

795
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: So the Washington Post put together a great article about

796
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 1: this in two thousand seventeen, noting that in the last

797
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 1: eleven years, one thou hundred and eighty one officers had

798
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: been fired from the nation's largest police departments, and four

799
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty one of those officers had successfully appealed

800
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: and gotten their jobs back. There's four hundred and fifty

801
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 1: one included an officer who raped a nineteen year old

802
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 1: in his patrol car, an officer who challenged a handcuffed

803
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: man to a fist fight for his freedom, and of course,

804
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: a cop who shot an unarmed man to death. Yeah,

805
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: what we gotta we gotta get this guy back on

806
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 1: the street. I gotta give him another chance to win

807
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:59,280
Speaker 1: that fist fight. Yeah. I'm like, there's the like tragically disgusting,

808
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: and then they is the preposterous like you just you

809
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 1: challenged the guy like he got on handcuffs, handcuffed man

810
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: to a fight to box him, Like yeah, you nerd,

811
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: Like yeah, you weren't so deadly, you know what I'm saying.

812
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 1: I wish I could just be like you're a nerd man. Yeah,

813
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: And like part of me is like I would kind

814
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: of like to get into a fist fight with a

815
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: cop in that situation, but I know that if you

816
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: start losing, you're going to shoot me. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

817
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: there's no winning that fight. Y um. One of my

818
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: favorite stories in this this really really wonderful Washington Post article,

819
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: is the two thousand twelve tale of Boston police officer

820
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 1: Baltazar Tate de Rosa. In two thousand three, de Rosa's

821
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: cousin was ambushed by a masked gunman and murdered and

822
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 1: what was probably a gang related crime. In two thousand five,

823
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: DeRosa cauld and sick for his overnight shift. He went

824
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: out to a nightclub, the Copa Grand Oasis instead with

825
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: a dude named Carlos Topina, who was his cousin and

826
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: the brother of his cousin who got murdered. While at

827
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,479
Speaker 1: the club. Both men encountered Jose Lopez, at gang member

828
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: who was a suspect in the murder of De Rosa's cousin,

829
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 1: Carlos round up murdering Jose Lopez using his off duty

830
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: cop cousin as a getaway driver. So de Rosa, who

831
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:11,879
Speaker 1: took the night off claiming to be sick and went

832
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: and got wasted a nightclub with his cousin. When his

833
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: cousin murders, the guy acts as the getaway driver, and obviously,

834
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: when this is found out, he gets placed on administrative

835
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: leave and he's charged with being an accessory to murder. Um.

836
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: He was acquitted of that crime, but he was fired

837
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: from the department when the investigation revealed that he had

838
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: actually been arrested with his cousin at that club before

839
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: due to a drunken disorderly conduct um. So again they

840
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: find out like, okay, maybe this guy didn't know he

841
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 1: was being the getaway driver and a murder that his

842
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 1: cousins admitted, but he knew that he was repeatedly getting

843
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 1: drunk at the club while he should have been working,

844
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 1: and like we should fire him for that he lied

845
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: about to us um. So de Rosa appealed the firing

846
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 1: and two thousand twelve, he was reinstated with fifty dollars

847
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: in lost pay in overtime. He is currently a Boston

848
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: Bike Patrol officer. That boy got the money back. Yeah,

849
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 1: of course they always get the money back. Oh my,

850
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: that oh dog, at least money back. That one's a

851
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: fun one because at least like the guy that they

852
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 1: murdered sounded like a piece of ship too whatever, because

853
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: it's just like, look, man, this again, you just gangbanging,

854
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 1: and like that is the most that that story that's

855
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 1: funny because it's the most like spot on any inner

856
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: city USA anywhere story, Right, That's like that's me. Like

857
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: if let's just say I'm working stiff. You know, I

858
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: still taught high school. I'm just gonna go chill with

859
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: one of my cousins because that's my cousin. We're all

860
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: from South central l A. Right, my cousin gets in

861
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: the static with somebody else, what am I gonna not

862
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: help him as my cousin, you know what I'm saying.

863
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 1: So like, Okay, yeah, maybe I lose my job, you know,

864
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 1: but like I just like, you know, I mean, that's

865
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: my cousin. Man, Like I'm gonna you know what I'm

866
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 1: saying like I'm gonna help, I'm gonna help scrape with

867
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: my cousin, you know. Um. And then I was supposed

868
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: to think of you any different because you've got a badge, right, No,

869
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: you just like the rest of us. You're gonna do

870
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: ratchet ship because you ratchet like all of us. Yeah,

871
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 1: point exactly, Yeah, exactly. In two thousand seven, fort Worth

872
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 1: police officer Jesus jesse Banda Jr. Stalked his ex girlfriend

873
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: to a party, saw her with another man, and used

874
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: a police like called into police dispatch to check on

875
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 1: the plates of the man she was with, fraudulently claiming

876
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: that he had like stopped the guy or whatever. So

877
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 1: he found the address of the dude that his ex

878
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 1: girlfriend was going out with, and several days later he

879
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: showed up at the man's house at night and shot

880
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,720
Speaker 1: the car up with his twelve gage. The department couldn't

881
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: prove he'd committed the crime, but they were able to

882
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: show that he lied about why he had called in

883
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: the man's license plate like a night or two before

884
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,720
Speaker 1: his car got shot up. Yeah, So the police chief

885
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 1: did the gimme your badge and gun thing and he

886
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 1: put Banda on unpaid suspension UM and while he was

887
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: suspended and under investigation, he was ordered not to represent

888
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: himself as a police officer. So you're handing in your

889
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: badge and gun, we're going to investigate you. You are

890
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: not getting paid and if you tell anyone you're a

891
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 1: police officer to try to get you know, the benefits

892
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 1: police officers get, like you're breaking the fucking law right now.

893
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: So Banda went out and represented himself as a police

894
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 1: officer of Coorseiately, he and some friends were pulled over

895
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 1: by another Fort Worth couple. They were drunk in a limousine.

896
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 1: Said cop had watched the people in the back of

897
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: the limo, including Banda, pass beer up to the driver.

898
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: So again, real hard to get in trouble for drinking

899
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 1: in a a limousine. This fucking dude finds a way. We

900
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:34,919
Speaker 1: passed into the wrong with you. What are you doing man, Yeah?

901
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. So when he asked Banda to step out

902
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: of the car, Banda handed over his police credentials and

903
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 1: pretended to be an officer in good standing. Despite all this,

904
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 1: the union had Banda's back and they fought for him.

905
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 1: He was reinstated and awarded a year of back pay.

906
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: So again the police chief is like, I don't what

907
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: this fucking guy in my department, and the unions like

908
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,280
Speaker 1: you are going to take him back and you're gonna

909
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: pay him for the time when he was getting drunken limousines.

910
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: Officer Banda had been back on the force for one

911
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 1: month before he was fired again for again misrepresenting himself

912
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: during a traffic stop. He is currently he was reinstated

913
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 1: by the union. He is currently a detective and thanks

914
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: to his union, the people of Fort Worth have to

915
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: brave the streets of their town knowing a guy who

916
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: uses department resources to hunt down the boyfriends of his

917
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 1: ex partners is out there with the power to arrest

918
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,760
Speaker 1: whoever and apparent immunity to the consequences of any illegal

919
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: actions he takes. So that's good. Congrats fort Worth, his

920
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: great good job for Worth. Yeah yeah, oh yeah, that

921
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 1: is not the note. That's embarrassing. That that thing. I

922
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,479
Speaker 1: don't But we're going to go to products now. Yes,

923
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: I'm Jakelbern, host of deep Cover. Our new season is

924
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: about a lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. We

925
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: controlled the courts, we controlled absolutely everything. He brobed judges

926
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 1: and even helped a hit man walk free, until one

927
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,760
Speaker 1: day when he started talking with the FBI and promised

928
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 1: that he could take the mob down. I've spent the

929
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 1: past year trying to figure out why he flipped and

930
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: what he was really after. From my perspective, Bob was

931
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: too good to be true. There's got to be something

932
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: wrong with this. I wouldn't trust that guy. He looks

933
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,479
Speaker 1: like a little scum, big lawyer, stool Pidgeon. He looked

934
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 1: like what he was or at. I can say with

935
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 1: all certainty I think he's a hero because he didn't

936
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 1: have to do what he did, and he did it anyway.

937
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:42,879
Speaker 1: The moment I put the wire around the first time,

938
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 1: my life was over. If it ever got out, they

939
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 1: would kill me in a heartbeat. Listen to deep Cover

940
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

941
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. This is Roxanne Gay, host of

942
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: the Roxanne Gay Agenda, The Badroom in his podcast of

943
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: Your Dreams. Now, what is the Roxanne Gay Agenda, you

944
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: might ask, Well, it's a podcast where I'm going to

945
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: speak my mind about what's on my mind, and that

946
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: could be anything. Every week I will be in conversation

947
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: with an interesting person who has something to say. We're

948
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 1: going to talk about feminism, race, writing in books, and art, food,

949
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:28,720
Speaker 1: pop culture, and yes, politics. I started show with a recommendation. Really,

950
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: I'm just going to share with you a movie or

951
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 1: a book, or maybe some music or a comedy set,

952
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 1: something that I really want you to be aware of

953
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: and maybe engage with as well. Listen to the Luminary

954
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: original podcast, The Roxanne Gay Agenda, The Bad Feminist Podcast

955
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 1: of Your Dreams, every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app,

956
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I call

957
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: the Union Hall as its male life and Death. I

958
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 1: thank these peeps of planning to kill Dr King. On

959
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:07,399
Speaker 1: April four, Dr Martin Luther King was shot and killed

960
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 1: in Memphis. A petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested.

961
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:13,839
Speaker 1: He pled guilty to the crime and spent the rest

962
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: of his life in prison. Case closed right, James L.

963
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:23,760
Speaker 1: Ray was upon for the official story. The authorities would

964
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: parade all we found a gun the James L. Ray

965
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: bought in Birmingham that killed Dr King, Except it wasn't

966
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: the gun that killed Dr. King. One of the problems

967
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: that came out when I got the ray case was

968
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 1: that some of the evidence, as far as I was concerned,

969
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 1: did not match the circumstances. This is the MLK tapes.

970
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 1: The first episodes are available now. Listen on the I

971
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

972
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 1: We're back, and we started talking about corneis out of Rise,

973
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 1: which I'm normally very happy with my decision to live

974
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: in the Pacific Northwest, but whenever somebody says carne Asada,

975
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: I longed for southern California. Yeah, so I could go

976
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: for some carne fris, but we're gonna we have to

977
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 1: talk about police unions instead. So, um yeah, So let's

978
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 1: let's talk about uh Kwan McDonald. Um so yeah. In

979
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 1: two thousand and fourteen, seventeen year old Kwan McDonald was

980
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 1: murdered by Chicago police officer Jason van Dyke. The media

981
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 1: fewer around this launched an investigation, which revealed that officer

982
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 1: Van Dyke had previously been the subject of repeated complaints.

983
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 1: The report noted that a code of silence about misconduct

984
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: was baked into labor agreements between police unions in the city,

985
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: and that this ensured that nothing had been done about

986
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 1: Officer Van Dyke before he killed a child. Van Dyke

987
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 1: was eventually convicted of second degree murder in sixteen accounts

988
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: of aggravated battery with a firearm. Sixteen is the number

989
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: of times he shot him um. Van Dyke was found

990
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: not guilty of any official misconduct, though it was guilty

991
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 1: of murder, but not guilty of improperly behaving as a

992
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: police officer. Yeah, yeah, yes, where did murder somebody and

993
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 1: we're gonna go to prison for it. But you also

994
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:23,320
Speaker 1: didn't break the rules of your job. Yeah, but job's fine.

995
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 1: Yeah wow, m yeah, what do we do with that one? Yeah. Ironically,

996
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 1: given their role in murdering the ship out of unions

997
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 1: for close to a hundred years, police might be the

998
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: most successful example of unionization in the US history, not

999
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 1: in terms of like benefits to society or benefit to

1000
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 1: the profession of policing, but at least in terms of

1001
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 1: the sheer amount of power that they wield they j yes.

1002
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: Labor historian Joseph McCartin notes they have more cloud than

1003
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,720
Speaker 1: other public sector unions like the teachers and sanitation workers,

1004
00:55:57,760 --> 00:55:59,760
Speaker 1: because they have often been able to command the political

1005
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: word of Republicans. That's given them a huge advantage. Police

1006
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 1: unions are one fortunate area where we have a single

1007
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: human being who embodies all of the evil that these

1008
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 1: institutions represent and do. And when I talk about a

1009
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 1: single human being who embodies the evil police unions, there's

1010
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: no one else I could be talking about but Lieutenant

1011
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: Bob Kroll, head of the Minneapolis Police Union. Yeah, president

1012
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 1: of the Minneapolis Police Union. Bob has of course appealed

1013
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 1: the firing of Derek Chauvan and the other three cops

1014
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 1: who murdered George Floyd, saying that they were fired without

1015
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: due process um and this is something of a pattern

1016
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 1: for him. In two thousand fifteen, when two white MPD

1017
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: officers shot twenty four year old Jamar Clark in the

1018
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,399
Speaker 1: head while he was handcuffed on the ground, Karl went

1019
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 1: on TV to talk about Clark's violent criminal past and

1020
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:48,799
Speaker 1: declare BLM a terrorist organization. Krol has a real thing

1021
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: for declaring people he disagrees with of being terrorists. He

1022
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 1: did the same thing to US Representative Keith Ellison, a

1023
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 1: black Muslim congressman who pushed for criminal justice reform. That

1024
00:56:57,800 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: fun detail came out in a lawsuit filed by the

1025
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 1: current IMPD police chief. According to Mother Jones, the lawsuit

1026
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 1: accused Croll of wearing a motorcycle jacket with a white

1027
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 1: power patch sewed into the fabric and said he had

1028
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: a history of discriminatory attitudes and conduct. He has told

1029
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:14,919
Speaker 1: reporters he was part of the City Heat motorcycle Club,

1030
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 1: some of whose members have been described by the Anti

1031
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 1: Defamation League is displaying white supremacist symbols. Bob Crow joined

1032
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 1: the IMPD back in nineteen nine, and in his years

1033
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 1: on the force there were twenty or more internal affairs

1034
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: complaints made against him. We don't know how Yeah minimum.

1035
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 1: We actually don't know how many it was because of

1036
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 1: all the ship I've been explaining. They purge records, but

1037
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: at least twenty we do. Yeah, can you have twenty

1038
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 1: on record? Yeah? Imagine I'm gonna like imagine I'm reading

1039
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 1: what I'm going to tell you next, and imagine that

1040
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 1: like he worked as a baker, or like like as

1041
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 1: a computer programmer. Everybody replaced cop with donut maker. Yeah,

1042
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 1: sanitation worker, sanitation worker. In nineteen four, he was suspended

1043
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: for using excessive force. In in nineteen he was accused

1044
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: of beating, choking, and kicking a biracial fifteen year old

1045
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: while shouting racial slurs Bob Kroll in two thousand four,

1046
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 1: when Kroll was off duty, someone leaving a bar bumped

1047
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 1: his backpack against Kroll's car. Bob and another off duty

1048
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 1: officer got out and beat the piss out of this guy.

1049
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: When his friends came to help, they beat the ship

1050
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 1: out of his friends too. Bob was suspended for twenty

1051
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 1: days for this. It's it's cartoonish like, like this is

1052
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 1: cartoon level. Yes. The Minnieappolos the Minneapolis police knew all

1053
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: of this when they elected Bob Crowl to be their

1054
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: union president by a two to one margin. Bob one

1055
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 1: because the citizens of Minneapolis had just elected a reform

1056
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 1: minded police chief. She told The New York Times. I

1057
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 1: believe Bob crow was elected out of fear. We are

1058
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: the only ones that support you. Your community doesn't support you.

1059
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 1: Your police chief is trying to get you fired. You

1060
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 1: see what I'm build in to hear. Police unions allow

1061
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: the cops to deliberately short circuit the democratic process. This

1062
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 1: is part of why bringing in better police chiefs and

1063
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 1: voting in reform minded mayors almost never actually does a

1064
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 1: damn thing when it comes to the police. Yeah, because

1065
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 1: the unions are still there and they stone wall anything

1066
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 1: from happening. When Kim Garner was elected d A of St.

1067
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 1: Louis in two thousand sixteen, she promised to fight police

1068
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: violence on behalf of her citizens. One of the way

1069
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 1: she proposed to do this was by establishing an independent

1070
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 1: oversight board to investigate abuses by police, like the PBA

1071
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 1: in New York more than a half century earlier. The

1072
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 1: police union in St. Louis set right to work killing

1073
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 1: this oversight board. They went to lawmakers one by one,

1074
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,240
Speaker 1: and whatever they said stopped the matter from even coming

1075
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 1: to a vote, According to the New York Times quote.

1076
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 1: Around the same time, a lawyer for the union waged

1077
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 1: a legal fight to live at the ability of the

1078
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 1: Prosecutor's office to investigate police misconduct. The following year, a

1079
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 1: leader of the union said Miss Gardner should be removed

1080
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 1: by force or by choice. Wow, that's cool, can you chack?

1081
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 1: Can you just It's like, I just it's it's comic

1082
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: book level power. Like and I just imagine, like you know,

1083
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 1: in in every comic book, when the when the bad

1084
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 1: guy goes like I feel the power, Like I feel

1085
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 1: like that's just death. Must be what it's like to

1086
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 1: where you're like after a while, just you just know

1087
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: you can get away with it, and anybody that comes

1088
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 1: in to try to stop you you got the power

1089
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 1: to remove. Like it just god, dog like it must

1090
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: be intoxicating, it must it's got to be a drug.

1091
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 1: Like it's got to be a drug. Yeah, yeah, it is,

1092
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 1: it is. It is. They're high on fucking power. And

1093
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 1: if you've ever I mean I don't know, have you

1094
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 1: have you never? Have you never pistol whip a guy? Never?

1095
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 1: It is Oh my god, oh my god, pistol whipping

1096
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 1: a dude. It's like it's like it's like that first

1097
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 1: slice of cherry pie on a birthday. Yeah, that's how it's. Yeah,

1098
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 1: no wonder they want to protect it. I get it.

1099
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 1: I get it. You're like, this is super fun. Now, Yeah,

1100
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 1: it's terrible. I've been in enough like fist fights to

1101
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 1: know I don't like them. Yeah, you know what I'm saying.

1102
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:27,919
Speaker 1: And I've been in enough to be like I don't

1103
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 1: like him because of the pain, but I also don't

1104
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 1: like him because you just walk away, Like even if

1105
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: it's just like that dude's a freaking scumbag and he

1106
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 1: deserved it. You're still like, don't you know, I'll feel

1107
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 1: good about it. Yeah, you still walk away like, man,

1108
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 1: I'll feel good about it. Yeah. Anyway, Yeah, and I

1109
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 1: was I was joking about pistol, of course. But I

1110
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 1: do wonder. I do wonder if we can succeed in

1111
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 1: police abolition. What if we just made it legal for

1112
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 1: everyone to own grenade launchers and tear gas gardades and

1113
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 1: rubber bullets, and then the crowd of protesters could confront

1114
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:04,919
Speaker 1: the police on it even like, would they enjoy being

1115
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 1: riot cops? Ye? If they were having getting flash banged back?

1116
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 1: I can. I can tell you I've seen some protesters

1117
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 1: throw like mortars, like fireworks back at police who are

1118
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:19,479
Speaker 1: shooting grenades with them, and they don't seem to like it. No, Yeah,

1119
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 1: it's crazy, huh, one would think, right, yeah, so um yeah,

1120
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 1: if if the way that police unions respond when elected

1121
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 1: officials try to restrict the powers and rights of the

1122
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 1: police sounds kind of like how the mob works. You're

1123
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 1: not the only person to think that way. Back in Minneapolis,

1124
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 1: City Councilman Steve Fletcher noted that once he started pushing

1125
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 1: to freeze the MPD from hiring new officers, the police

1126
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,600
Speaker 1: stopped responding as quickly to nine one one calls made

1127
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 1: by his constituents. He called it a little bit like

1128
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 1: a protection racket. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what it is,

1129
01:02:56,720 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 1: Steve exact publicate and be used at a song called

1130
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 1: nine one one is a joke and it's and and

1131
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 1: and like people think they were They're like, what is

1132
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:09,760
Speaker 1: what are they talking about? No, you don't understand that

1133
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 1: they don't have to come when we call. Yeah, you

1134
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 1: could decide like this, I'm just not gonna go over there. Yeah,

1135
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 1: And it's it's funny because of the protests in Portland

1136
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 1: and stuff, like, I know a lot of people who

1137
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 1: have been the victims of crimes in Portland. I've been

1138
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 1: the victims of crimes, thankfully not here, but in other cities.

1139
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 1: And like it always takes a hell of a long

1140
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 1: time for the police to respond. Um. But when the

1141
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 1: protests here wound up in the neighborhood where the mayor's

1142
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 1: mansion is and so like they were surrounded by mansions

1143
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:40,520
Speaker 1: and people started shining lasers and windows and like sitting

1144
01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 1: off smoke bombs. The police were fucking right there there,

1145
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 1: so fucking quickzy man, you guys response times today. Wow,

1146
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 1: you guys, are you guys are really on the ball

1147
01:03:53,720 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 1: when this neighborhood, this specific neighborhood gets sucked with Yeah yeah.

1148
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 1: So um, we'll talk a little bit more about police

1149
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:06,880
Speaker 1: unions later. For now, there's another major subject. We've got

1150
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 1: a pivot to broken windows policing. Yeah, but this is

1151
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 1: you've heard of broken windows, right, bro? This is the

1152
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:16,600
Speaker 1: one that like when this is the stuff you're getting

1153
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:21,240
Speaker 1: into that like our like dad's and big brothers and

1154
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 1: cousins would sit us down and say, hey, this is

1155
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 1: how it works. You need to protect yourself. They was

1156
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: explaining this stuff. Yeah yeah. Um. In two thousand twelve,

1157
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:36,400
Speaker 1: a teenager named Alvin Cruz was stopped by police and searched.

1158
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 1: This was not unusual for Cruise that had happened to

1159
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 1: him numerous times before, and the officers searching him. This

1160
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 1: was in New York, by the way, and the officers

1161
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 1: searching him never explained why they were doing it, but

1162
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:48,120
Speaker 1: this time because he was just fucking tired of being

1163
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 1: hassled so many him by the police. Alvin secretly recorded

1164
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:54,520
Speaker 1: the encounter, and he caught on tape the officer's response.

1165
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:56,920
Speaker 1: When he asked him why he was being stopped. The

1166
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:00,360
Speaker 1: cop told him for being a fucking mutt. Un know that.

1167
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:03,920
Speaker 1: Another officer twisted his arm behind his back after this

1168
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,720
Speaker 1: and shouted, dude, I'm gonna break your fucking arm and

1169
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:10,720
Speaker 1: then I'm gonna punch you in the fucking face. This

1170
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 1: tape went real viral, and it was cited in the

1171
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:16,520
Speaker 1: ruling of a federal judge later that year, um when

1172
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 1: the judge ruled that the nypds stopping frisk policy was

1173
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:23,880
Speaker 1: unconstitutional and racially discriminatory. Stopping frisk is not a policy

1174
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 1: unique to New York, but as we've learned, the NYPD

1175
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 1: tend to be trailblazers. This tactic involves basically stopping random people,

1176
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 1: virtually all of whom were black or Hispanic, and searching

1177
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 1: them for contraband with little to no cause. Stopping frisk

1178
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 1: was justified by the best minds available to nineteen eighties

1179
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 1: law enforcement, James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling. Do

1180
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 1: you don't even about either of these guys? Uh, not

1181
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 1: personally except for the other reason why I can't walk

1182
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:55,400
Speaker 1: home with a friend. Yes, kid, you're gonna learn some

1183
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 1: not surprising stuff about them, but yeah. In nine two,

1184
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 1: well Son and Kelling published an article in the Atlantic

1185
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:04,440
Speaker 1: that became the foundation of what we now know as

1186
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 1: broken windows policing, probably the most single most influential article

1187
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 1: in the history of law enforcement. Their chief argument was

1188
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:13,280
Speaker 1: boiled down in this sentence. If a window in a

1189
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:16,320
Speaker 1: building is broken and left unrepaired, all the rest of

1190
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 1: the windows will soon be broken. So in order to

1191
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 1: keep crime down and keep neighborhoods nice, they argued, all

1192
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 1: violations of public order have to be sternly punished and prosecuted.

1193
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 1: Searching random black and Latino kids and occasionally beating the

1194
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:31,200
Speaker 1: ship out of them is just the price we pay

1195
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 1: for making sure those kids don't have spray paint on

1196
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:35,840
Speaker 1: them or whatever you know, or aren't going to sell

1197
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:37,720
Speaker 1: a little bit of weed or something like. Because any

1198
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 1: small criminal violation will inevitably lead to the total destruction

1199
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 1: of the neighborhood, So we have to police this little

1200
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 1: ship as harshly as possible. Now. Wilson and Kelling's new

1201
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:50,440
Speaker 1: theory of policing was presented as scientific, backed up by

1202
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:53,200
Speaker 1: the latest data, but that was a complete sham. There

1203
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:56,920
Speaker 1: was only a single piece of hard evidence behind their theory,

1204
01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 1: and they didn't interpret it the way that the actual

1205
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 1: reas searchers who did the study um interpreted it. And

1206
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 1: that single piece of evidence was a nineteen sixty nine

1207
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 1: study by every psych student's favorite problematic researcher, Philip Zimbardo. Yeah,

1208
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 1: love me some Zimbardo, you know what he was like.

1209
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:20,440
Speaker 1: There's a lot of real good criticisms of Philip Zimbardo,

1210
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 1: but his work is never boring, Like I want to

1211
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 1: do some weere. I'm gonna make a prison and staff

1212
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 1: it with teenagers. This guy, there's a few people that

1213
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 1: make it into your history books that you're just like,

1214
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 1: how why are we studying him? I would love to

1215
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:38,960
Speaker 1: drink with Phillips Zimbardo. Like, as someone who is critical

1216
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 1: of virtually all of his research, he sounds fun. Yeah, yeah,

1217
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:47,640
Speaker 1: he still sounds fun. Yeah. So this particular nineteen sixty

1218
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 1: nine study by Zimbardo had been inspired by the nineteen

1219
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:53,160
Speaker 1: sixty eight riots and uprisings, obviously, like Zimbardo had just

1220
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 1: like watched the entire country convulsed by something that was

1221
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:58,520
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways even more like even more

1222
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 1: serious than what we're seeing right now. Um. And he

1223
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 1: was like, I should probably do some science about that ship. Um.

1224
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:10,440
Speaker 1: So he was frustrated, particularly that conservatives blamed vandalism on

1225
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:14,200
Speaker 1: individual criminality. So vandal considers were blaming like vandalism during

1226
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 1: protest on the criminal nature of individual protesters, and he

1227
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 1: thought this was wrong. He thought that vandalism had more

1228
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 1: to do with crowd mentality than individual characteristics. So in

1229
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 1: order to test his hypothesis, he and his team parked

1230
01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:30,040
Speaker 1: got two oldsmobiles and they parked one in the South

1231
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 1: Bronx and the other in Palo Alto, California. They surveilled

1232
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,200
Speaker 1: both cars and they watched what happened to them. Now, Zimbardo,

1233
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:39,840
Speaker 1: because he was a little bit racist, expected the Oldsmobile

1234
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,719
Speaker 1: and the Bronx would be swiftly vandalized and torn apart.

1235
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:45,160
Speaker 1: And he was right, but he was surprised that the

1236
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:47,880
Speaker 1: first vandals were a white, well dressed family and not

1237
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:55,640
Speaker 1: black teenagers. Um. Yeah, which is not go ahead, Yeah,

1238
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:58,519
Speaker 1: I was going to say, because like, and I'm saying

1239
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:02,320
Speaker 1: it's completely anecdotally. It's because when you black and brown,

1240
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 1: you already know they're gonna blame me anyway, So I can't. Now,

1241
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:09,200
Speaker 1: I'm not going to touch that. You know what's gonna happen,

1242
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:11,880
Speaker 1: Like they come over and kill us, you know what

1243
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 1: I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, so yeah. He was surprised by this,

1244
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:18,439
Speaker 1: but he felt that his central hypothesis was supported um

1245
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 1: the lack of community cohesion. This is his conclusion. The

1246
01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:23,760
Speaker 1: lack of community cohesion and the Bronx produced a sense

1247
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:27,800
Speaker 1: of anonymity which gave people permission to commit acts of vandalism.

1248
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:31,200
Speaker 1: He wrote, conditions that create social inequality and put some

1249
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:34,600
Speaker 1: people outside of the conventional rewards structure of the society,

1250
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 1: make them indifferent to its sanctions, laws, and implicit norms.

1251
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:43,719
Speaker 1: M hmm, yeah, yeah, sentence, That is quite a sentence.

1252
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:46,800
Speaker 1: So like, yeah, that happens to the old mobile and

1253
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:49,280
Speaker 1: Harlem um or not Harlem in the bronx Um and

1254
01:09:49,280 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 1: the old mobile he parked in Palo Alto suffered a

1255
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 1: somewhat different fate. According to the Washington Post quote, after

1256
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:59,320
Speaker 1: a week long, unremarkable steak out, Simbardo's drove the car

1257
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:01,840
Speaker 1: to the Stanford campus, where his research team aimed to

1258
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:05,639
Speaker 1: prime vandalism by taking a sledgehammer to its windows. Upon

1259
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 1: discovering that this was stimulating and pleasurable, Zimbardo and his

1260
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:14,559
Speaker 1: graduate students got carried away. As Zimbardo described it, one

1261
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 1: student jumped on the roof and began stomping it in.

1262
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:19,360
Speaker 1: Two were pulling out the door from its hinges, an

1263
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:21,160
Speaker 1: other hammered away at the hood and motor, while the

1264
01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:24,600
Speaker 1: last one broke called the glass he could find the passers.

1265
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:31,880
Speaker 1: The passers by the study had intended to observe, had

1266
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:34,679
Speaker 1: turned into spectators and only joined in after the car

1267
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:39,360
Speaker 1: was already wrecked. Zimbardo's conclusions were the stuff of liberal criminology. Anyone,

1268
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:42,720
Speaker 1: even Stanford researchers, could be lured into vandalism, and this

1269
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:45,599
Speaker 1: was particularly true in places like the Bronx with heightened

1270
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 1: social inequalities. For Zimbardo, what happened in the Bronx and

1271
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 1: at Stanford suggested that crowd mentality, social inequalities, and community

1272
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:57,360
Speaker 1: anonymity could prompt good citizens to act destructively. This was

1273
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 1: no radical critique. It was an indictment of law and

1274
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 1: order politics that viewed vandalism as a senseless, unpardonable act

1275
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:06,160
Speaker 1: in a line that could have been lifted directly out

1276
01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:09,000
Speaker 1: of the countless riot reports published in the late nineteen sixties.

1277
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:14,200
Speaker 1: Zimbardo asserted vandalism is rebellion with a cause. M hmmm,

1278
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:19,559
Speaker 1: which so yeah, yeah, yeah. I I can't. I can't

1279
01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:21,920
Speaker 1: speak to the accuracy of Simbardo's conclusions about the Bronx,

1280
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:25,559
Speaker 1: particularly like his his attitudes about community there. Also, it

1281
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:28,320
Speaker 1: was not a place he understood very well. Um, and

1282
01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:31,400
Speaker 1: he was clearly a manned with some biases. Uh. But

1283
01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:35,679
Speaker 1: I can't argue with his conclusions about Palo Alto because

1284
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 1: in part of what I saw in riot night in Portland,

1285
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:41,479
Speaker 1: which was the night after the Third Precinct in Minneapolis burned. Um,

1286
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:44,120
Speaker 1: I know that, like you know, people rioted in Portland.

1287
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:46,840
Speaker 1: They fucked up the Justice Center and like lit it

1288
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:50,920
Speaker 1: on fire and they destroyed like they damaged a lot

1289
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:53,360
Speaker 1: of the luxury shopping district and looted it. And it

1290
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:56,160
Speaker 1: was blamed on like antifo white anarchist kids. But like

1291
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:59,040
Speaker 1: I was there, it was a pretty fucking broad cross

1292
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:02,040
Speaker 1: section of the port population. Who was You can tell.

1293
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:05,000
Speaker 1: I've seen enough people break windows. You can tell when

1294
01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:07,840
Speaker 1: someone knows how to break a window, and when someone

1295
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:09,960
Speaker 1: is breaking a window for the first time, a lot

1296
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:11,479
Speaker 1: of first time window a lot of a lot of

1297
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:13,760
Speaker 1: experienced window breakers in that crowd, don't get me wrong,

1298
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:15,640
Speaker 1: a lot of first time window breakers. You just got

1299
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:22,559
Speaker 1: taken in by the moment. Yeah, yeah, that's good. So yeah,

1300
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:26,120
Speaker 1: I I think that that's probably accurate that, like most

1301
01:12:26,200 --> 01:12:28,760
Speaker 1: vandalism that happens in times like these, is not the

1302
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:30,960
Speaker 1: result of people who are as a lot of folks,

1303
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:34,360
Speaker 1: I could portray them inherently criminal. Um, not that I

1304
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 1: even feel comfortable like judging people on that basis, but

1305
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:41,360
Speaker 1: I think most of that kind of vandalism is just like, oh,

1306
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:42,760
Speaker 1: fuck it, I can get away with this now, yeah

1307
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:45,720
Speaker 1: I want to like yeah, yeah, I'm angry and like

1308
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:47,519
Speaker 1: I feel like this is an option. Now let's do it.

1309
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:52,639
Speaker 1: Yeah now, um, so yeah. The Oldsmobile study was actually

1310
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:55,479
Speaker 1: not very influential initially, and it's sort of languished in

1311
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:57,880
Speaker 1: the annals of academic history for a decade and a

1312
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 1: half until Wilson and Kelling, the guys who wrote that

1313
01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:04,360
Speaker 1: Atlantic article in the Broken Windows theory, until they came

1314
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:08,280
Speaker 1: across it, So they didn't listen to anything Zimbardo had

1315
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:12,120
Speaker 1: actually said about crowd mentality and community and anonymity. They

1316
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:14,800
Speaker 1: kind of ignored all of the actual conclusions in the

1317
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:17,680
Speaker 1: study um and took from it only the fact that

1318
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:20,720
Speaker 1: quote one unrepaired broken window is a signal that no

1319
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 1: one cares, and so breaking more windows costs nothing. So

1320
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:28,479
Speaker 1: both of these guys cite the Zimbardo theory as the

1321
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:31,720
Speaker 1: entire academic basis of their theory on crime uh the

1322
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:34,800
Speaker 1: Zimbardo study, but they actually interpreted it in a way

1323
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 1: that ran completely at odds to the person conducting the

1324
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,280
Speaker 1: studies own conclusions. And I'm gonna quote from the Washington

1325
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:43,800
Speaker 1: Post again. Their misleading recap of Zimbardo's study not only

1326
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:47,400
Speaker 1: conflated the Stanford and Palo Alto experiments, but so distorted

1327
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:49,720
Speaker 1: the order of events that it routed readers away from

1328
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:53,000
Speaker 1: Zimbardo's conclusions. In their version, the car and Paolo Alto

1329
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:55,920
Speaker 1: sat untouched for more than a week, then Zimbardo smashed

1330
01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:58,200
Speaker 1: part of it with a sledgehammer. Soon passers by were

1331
01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:01,000
Speaker 1: joining in. Where they conveniently neglected to mention was that

1332
01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:03,800
Speaker 1: the researchers themselves had laid waste to the car. By

1333
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:07,959
Speaker 1: admitting this crucial detail, Wilson and Kelly manipulated Zimbardo's experiment

1334
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 1: to draw a straight line between one broken window and

1335
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:13,160
Speaker 1: a thousand broken windows. This enabled them to claim that

1336
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:15,639
Speaker 1: all it took was a broken window to transform staid

1337
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:19,280
Speaker 1: Palo Alto into the Bronx where no one cared. The

1338
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:22,559
Speaker 1: problem is it wasn't a broken window that enticed onlookers

1339
01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:24,759
Speaker 1: to join the freight. It was the spectacle of faculty

1340
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:28,200
Speaker 1: and students destroying an oldsmobile in the middle of Stanford's campus. Yeah.

1341
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:31,160
Speaker 1: I like that's like, yes, that one did it. Yeah.

1342
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:35,360
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, that professor's sucking up you Like, yeah,

1343
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:38,439
Speaker 1: it seems like it's cool. Now let's do Yeah. Like

1344
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:42,040
Speaker 1: people if they if someone's like, hey, it's actually there's

1345
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:44,040
Speaker 1: a car people are sucking up and it's okay, it's

1346
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:46,080
Speaker 1: perfectly legal. Do you want to funk up a car

1347
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 1: a little bit? Most people are gonna be like yeah, yeah, yeah,

1348
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:54,760
Speaker 1: it's it's so intuitive. And if I just see like

1349
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:57,559
Speaker 1: a smashed window on a car, that's not gonna make

1350
01:14:57,560 --> 01:15:00,120
Speaker 1: me go I'm gonna smash that dude's window too. One

1351
01:15:00,160 --> 01:15:02,720
Speaker 1: would be like, oh, that fool's backpack I've stolen, Like

1352
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna think you know what I'm saying, poor guy,

1353
01:15:05,160 --> 01:15:08,120
Speaker 1: like it's not gonna go Oh, nobody cares on this street.

1354
01:15:08,520 --> 01:15:10,160
Speaker 1: Speaking as someone who spends a lot of time in

1355
01:15:10,160 --> 01:15:13,160
Speaker 1: the Bay Area, I never go to San Francisco and

1356
01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:15,599
Speaker 1: don't see at least one car with a smashed out window.

1357
01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:18,400
Speaker 1: And I never see all of the windows around that

1358
01:15:18,479 --> 01:15:21,800
Speaker 1: car smashed. In fact, it's usually in a nice neighborhood. Still,

1359
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 1: it's just the thing they do. In Sanford, they up

1360
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:25,760
Speaker 1: car windows and steelship inside cars. Don't do stuff in

1361
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:28,479
Speaker 1: your car. In San Francisco, they don't break everything. Yeah,

1362
01:15:28,520 --> 01:15:30,639
Speaker 1: that was my lesson was like, hey, dude, don't leave

1363
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:33,800
Speaker 1: your backpack in the car. The story, don't leave your

1364
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:36,640
Speaker 1: backpack in the It is a meme in San Francisco.

1365
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 1: Never leave anything in you And by the way, when

1366
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:41,000
Speaker 1: I had my car broken into in San Francisco, I

1367
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:45,840
Speaker 1: was parked directly in front of the Mission Police precincts. Like,

1368
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:49,320
Speaker 1: we went in to report it and the officer said,

1369
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:51,840
Speaker 1: what do you want us to do about it? Right?

1370
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:59,080
Speaker 1: Every okay, Tott Copper everyone while they'll nail it like

1371
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:02,360
Speaker 1: it was once. Remember we're not saying like my uh

1372
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:06,160
Speaker 1: my freaking speakers and amp got stolen out of my car,

1373
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:09,040
Speaker 1: and it's kind of the same thing. That cop was like,

1374
01:16:09,160 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 1: what what you want me to do? Man? Yeah, and

1375
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:14,599
Speaker 1: I'm like, touche. I mean you know what I want

1376
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:16,599
Speaker 1: you to do is when I talk about police abolition,

1377
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:18,040
Speaker 1: not be like, who are you going to call if

1378
01:16:18,040 --> 01:16:21,600
Speaker 1: someone robs you? Because here we are, because it's not

1379
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:29,360
Speaker 1: just that day. Um. So I first read that article

1380
01:16:29,479 --> 01:16:32,519
Speaker 1: about like the how the broken windows policing guys had

1381
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 1: like fucked up Zimbardo's study years before I came across

1382
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:37,960
Speaker 1: like the basics of or years after I'd come across

1383
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:40,559
Speaker 1: the basics of broken windows policing theory during I took

1384
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:42,600
Speaker 1: criminal justice for a while in college. I wanted to

1385
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:46,839
Speaker 1: be in law enforcement at one point. Um, and reading

1386
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:49,519
Speaker 1: that kind of like dissection of this foundational theory and

1387
01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:52,280
Speaker 1: modern law enforcement was pretty shocking and impactful to me.

1388
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:55,479
Speaker 1: But I didn't know half the real story until I

1389
01:16:55,520 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 1: read Alex Vitali's The End of Policing this year. Vitality

1390
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:02,120
Speaker 1: points out the the core of broken windows theory is

1391
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:05,040
Speaker 1: the idea that people have latent destructive traits that are

1392
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:10,080
Speaker 1: unleashed without constant pressure from authority. To conform and behave fatality,

1393
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:12,800
Speaker 1: writes quote. The emergence of this theory in nineteen eight

1394
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:15,679
Speaker 1: two is tied to a larger arc of urban neo

1395
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 1: conservative thinking going back to the nineteen sixties. Wilson's former

1396
01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:23,560
Speaker 1: mentor and collaborator, Edward Banfield, a close associate of neoliberal

1397
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:27,120
Speaker 1: economist Milton Friedman at the University of Chicago, parented many

1398
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 1: of the ideas that came to make up the new

1399
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:33,080
Speaker 1: conservative consensus on cities. Banfield's big work was the nineteen

1400
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:36,360
Speaker 1: seventy book The Unheavenly City, which is basically an extended

1401
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:39,000
Speaker 1: argument that poor people and this is me now not vitality.

1402
01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:42,240
Speaker 1: The Unheavenly City is an extended argument that poor people

1403
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:44,960
Speaker 1: can't be helped and so welfare programs are a waste

1404
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:47,360
Speaker 1: of money. Here's a quote from Banfield's book, and this

1405
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:51,000
Speaker 1: is again like the mentor of of Wilson, the guy

1406
01:17:51,040 --> 01:17:52,680
Speaker 1: who is one of the main architect, one of the

1407
01:17:52,720 --> 01:17:54,760
Speaker 1: two architects of the broken windows theory. So here's what

1408
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:58,559
Speaker 1: it writes. Although he has more leisure than almost anyone,

1409
01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 1: the indifference at a the if one prefers of the

1410
01:18:01,439 --> 01:18:04,439
Speaker 1: lower class person is such that he seldom makes even

1411
01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:06,720
Speaker 1: the simplest repairs to the place that he lives in.

1412
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 1: He is not troubled by dirt or dilapidation, and he

1413
01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 1: does not mind the inadequacy of public facilities such as schools, parks, hospitals,

1414
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:17,960
Speaker 1: and libraries. Indeed, where such things exist, he may destroy

1415
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:21,759
Speaker 1: them by carelessness or even by vandalism. Oh my gosh,

1416
01:18:22,840 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 1: mad right now, it makes you realize, Yeah, it's just

1417
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:29,280
Speaker 1: what justlike what do you know about being poor? Going

1418
01:18:29,360 --> 01:18:32,160
Speaker 1: any poor person's house, They have fixed more of their

1419
01:18:32,160 --> 01:18:35,160
Speaker 1: own ship than you know how to. But like, yes,

1420
01:18:35,439 --> 01:18:40,000
Speaker 1: there's that I've always put like the like broken window, uh,

1421
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:43,320
Speaker 1: stopping frisk and then like kind of the like gang

1422
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:46,960
Speaker 1: in junctions and street sweepers, like I've always kind of

1423
01:18:46,960 --> 01:18:49,960
Speaker 1: like in my head without any actual research, like lumped

1424
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:55,000
Speaker 1: them all together under the like the theory that you

1425
01:18:55,120 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 1: just presented, which is that like, ultimately, we don't don't

1426
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:05,800
Speaker 1: care about our neighborhoods unless we have authoritative powers that

1427
01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:08,439
Speaker 1: keep us in line. Like I've kind of lumped it

1428
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:11,120
Speaker 1: under that thought and that that's that's what law enforcement

1429
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:13,040
Speaker 1: thinks about us, you know what I'm saying, Like that

1430
01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:17,639
Speaker 1: it's still the broken window thing. So when the getting

1431
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:19,479
Speaker 1: a junctions will I don't know if we're if we're

1432
01:19:19,520 --> 01:19:21,200
Speaker 1: even gonna cover that, but like I've always kind of

1433
01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:23,439
Speaker 1: seen them because they were all around. It was all

1434
01:19:23,479 --> 01:19:28,759
Speaker 1: that eighties and nineties like policing that that that turned

1435
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:32,760
Speaker 1: me into the like policing don't work, you know, activists

1436
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:34,880
Speaker 1: that I am now is like under that sort of thinking.

1437
01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:37,160
Speaker 1: I don't know if they are together, but it's but

1438
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:41,000
Speaker 1: him the statement you just said, the idea of again

1439
01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:46,559
Speaker 1: saying that like ultimately your animals unless we keep you

1440
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:50,120
Speaker 1: in line, it just all makes sense. Now that's clearly

1441
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:52,880
Speaker 1: how you think of us. Yes, yes, and it will

1442
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:57,479
Speaker 1: become clearer where all of the yeah yeah so uh.

1443
01:19:57,600 --> 01:19:59,920
Speaker 1: Banfield basically thought that cities ought to be a ba

1444
01:20:00,080 --> 01:20:03,240
Speaker 1: ended because they were just inherently criminal places. Um and

1445
01:20:03,320 --> 01:20:06,320
Speaker 1: his protege Wilson, took a different tax, arguing that cities

1446
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:08,840
Speaker 1: had been great once and could be halted in their

1447
01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:11,200
Speaker 1: decline and made great again because if only the cause

1448
01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:15,720
Speaker 1: of that decline were properly recognized. Wilson identified liberal politicians

1449
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:18,680
Speaker 1: and of course, the moral failings of black communities, as

1450
01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:22,080
Speaker 1: the chief clause of urban decline. Vitality writes that Wilson

1451
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:26,280
Speaker 1: quote argued that liberals had unwittingly unleashed urban chaos by

1452
01:20:26,360 --> 01:20:30,519
Speaker 1: undermining the formal social control mechanisms that made city living possible.

1453
01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:33,280
Speaker 1: By supporting the more radical demands of the later urban

1454
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:36,000
Speaker 1: expressions of the Civil rights movement, they had so weakened

1455
01:20:36,040 --> 01:20:39,480
Speaker 1: the police, teachers, and other government forces of behavioral regulation

1456
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:44,160
Speaker 1: that chaos came to rain. Wilson, following Banfield, believed strongly

1457
01:20:44,200 --> 01:20:46,479
Speaker 1: that there were profound limits on what the government could

1458
01:20:46,520 --> 01:20:49,320
Speaker 1: do to help the poor. Financial investment in them would

1459
01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:52,520
Speaker 1: be squandered, New services would go unused or be destroyed.

1460
01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:56,040
Speaker 1: They would continue in their slothful and destructive ways. Since

1461
01:20:56,080 --> 01:20:58,439
Speaker 1: the root of the problem was either an essentially moral

1462
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:01,280
Speaker 1: or cultural failure or allowed pack of external controls to

1463
01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:05,400
Speaker 1: regulate inherently destructive human urges, the solution had to take

1464
01:21:05,439 --> 01:21:08,920
Speaker 1: the form of punitive social control mechanisms to restore order

1465
01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:12,840
Speaker 1: and neighborhood stability. Wilson's views were informed by a borderline

1466
01:21:12,920 --> 01:21:16,000
Speaker 1: racism that emerged as a mix of biological and cultural

1467
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:22,840
Speaker 1: explanations for the inferiority of poor blacks. Wilson, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1468
01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:26,760
Speaker 1: some thoughts like just like just like the religious right

1469
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:30,120
Speaker 1: and like you know, you know, I'm I'm I'm I

1470
01:21:30,200 --> 01:21:31,599
Speaker 1: grew up a church boy, you know what I'm saying,

1471
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:33,719
Speaker 1: Like I still got a lot of stuff still serves

1472
01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:36,040
Speaker 1: me well, but like I'm just thinking about like just that,

1473
01:21:36,160 --> 01:21:40,320
Speaker 1: like that like why Western evangelical like well, like okay,

1474
01:21:40,320 --> 01:21:43,120
Speaker 1: the breakdown of the family. It's like there's no dad's

1475
01:21:43,160 --> 01:21:45,920
Speaker 1: in the homes and that's the problem in like in

1476
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:49,400
Speaker 1: the black community. Your fathers are missing, so y'all have

1477
01:21:49,439 --> 01:21:52,280
Speaker 1: no direction and just hearing all that stuff, you know

1478
01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:53,840
Speaker 1: from these people that are supposed to be taking care

1479
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:56,760
Speaker 1: of you. So like how just how And then when

1480
01:21:56,800 --> 01:21:59,280
Speaker 1: you get get of age and you realize not I

1481
01:21:59,280 --> 01:22:02,440
Speaker 1: think y'all just raceis like when it kind of like clicks,

1482
01:22:02,479 --> 01:22:08,240
Speaker 1: just the like crisis of like faith that you have

1483
01:22:08,439 --> 01:22:10,920
Speaker 1: at that moment where you're just like I don't, I can't.

1484
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:13,760
Speaker 1: I'm actually not welcome here. I thought I was welcome here.

1485
01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:18,559
Speaker 1: I'm and I welcome here anyway. Yeah, So back to

1486
01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:21,240
Speaker 1: Wilson a little bit, because this this next part is important.

1487
01:22:21,240 --> 01:22:24,080
Speaker 1: No no, no, no no. Um. Wilson co authored the

1488
01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:27,439
Speaker 1: book Crime and Human Nature with Richard Hernstein, which argued

1489
01:22:27,439 --> 01:22:31,479
Speaker 1: that there were important biological determinants of criminality, while race

1490
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:34,240
Speaker 1: was not one of the core determinants. Language about i

1491
01:22:34,320 --> 01:22:36,479
Speaker 1: Q and body type open the door to a kind

1492
01:22:36,479 --> 01:22:39,960
Speaker 1: of sociobiology that led Hernstein to co author the openly

1493
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:43,760
Speaker 1: racist The Bell Curve with Charles Murray, who was also

1494
01:22:43,840 --> 01:22:46,720
Speaker 1: a close associate of Wilson. So The Bell Curve, if

1495
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:49,240
Speaker 1: you're not aware, is a thoroughly to credit discredited book

1496
01:22:49,240 --> 01:22:50,720
Speaker 1: about i Q and race that has earned a place

1497
01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:55,000
Speaker 1: of honor in every racist bookshelf. And so Wilson is

1498
01:22:55,080 --> 01:22:57,559
Speaker 1: friends with both of the authors of that, and works

1499
01:22:57,600 --> 01:22:59,559
Speaker 1: on a book with one of the authors of that

1500
01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:04,080
Speaker 1: is the guy who coinventced broken windows theory of policing.

1501
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:08,559
Speaker 1: Like that's that's where he's swimming in. That's his fucking sea. Yeah,

1502
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:11,559
Speaker 1: And it's so like hearing it all together, it's so clear,

1503
01:23:12,200 --> 01:23:14,840
Speaker 1: you know, it's so obvious, you know, coupled with my

1504
01:23:14,920 --> 01:23:18,400
Speaker 1: own just experience, and just like, oh my god, it

1505
01:23:18,439 --> 01:23:22,559
Speaker 1: all it's hearing it all together. It's just like, yes, yes,

1506
01:23:22,920 --> 01:23:26,720
Speaker 1: that's so, I'm not crazy. You really do think this

1507
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:32,599
Speaker 1: about us, got it? Yep? Yeah, So the broken windows

1508
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:35,360
Speaker 1: theory gave ideological cover to people who wanted to empower

1509
01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:38,080
Speaker 1: the US police to interfere more directly in the daily

1510
01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:41,960
Speaker 1: lives of more, particularly non white people. Prevention of crime

1511
01:23:42,040 --> 01:23:43,800
Speaker 1: had been the goal since the days of Volmer, but

1512
01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:47,920
Speaker 1: what that mint had changed Now Poverty and social disorganization

1513
01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:51,240
Speaker 1: were seen as the results of crime, not the causes,

1514
01:23:51,479 --> 01:23:54,160
Speaker 1: and thus the best way to reform society was to

1515
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:58,200
Speaker 1: repeatedly punish people from minor criminal behavior. Vitality goes on

1516
01:23:58,800 --> 01:24:01,960
Speaker 1: Broken windows policing is root a deeply conservative attempt to

1517
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:05,439
Speaker 1: shift the burden of responsibility for declining living conditions onto

1518
01:24:05,439 --> 01:24:08,120
Speaker 1: the poor themselves, and to argue that the solution to

1519
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:12,240
Speaker 1: all social ills is increasingly aggressive, invasive, and restrictive forms

1520
01:24:12,439 --> 01:24:16,480
Speaker 1: of policing that involved more arrests, more harassment, and ultimately

1521
01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:22,639
Speaker 1: more violence. Wow, so the solution of poverty ain't jobs, No,

1522
01:24:23,160 --> 01:24:26,280
Speaker 1: it's punishment. Yeah, you gotta stop him from breaking breaking

1523
01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:30,320
Speaker 1: windows in their neighborhood by arresting them for weed or whatever. Yeah. Yo.

1524
01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:36,280
Speaker 1: The nuance that like like like snatch that out the sky,

1525
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:39,680
Speaker 1: the nuance of saying I'm gonna try to say it

1526
01:24:39,760 --> 01:24:41,840
Speaker 1: like you like like the quote said which he was

1527
01:24:41,880 --> 01:24:48,080
Speaker 1: like like the cause that the cause of crime was

1528
01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:52,120
Speaker 1: not the poverty. The cause of poverty was the crime.

1529
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:57,599
Speaker 1: And that's the part where I'm just like, there's your

1530
01:24:57,640 --> 01:25:01,280
Speaker 1: mistake there, it is right. Um, if if if you've

1531
01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:04,520
Speaker 1: ever heard the term like like a crime of survival,

1532
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:08,559
Speaker 1: then like you understand what we're talking about here where

1533
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:13,720
Speaker 1: it's just like you're you have that completely backwards, you

1534
01:25:13,720 --> 01:25:15,639
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. If if you if you think

1535
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:19,439
Speaker 1: that the the cause of the poverty is the crime

1536
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:25,360
Speaker 1: rather than saying the cause of the crime is the poverty. Yeah,

1537
01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:30,240
Speaker 1: that is like that fundamental switch. Everything will start making

1538
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:33,680
Speaker 1: sense now when you when you understand that, like the

1539
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:36,839
Speaker 1: laws are the crime, the law is probably unjust already.

1540
01:25:37,200 --> 01:25:40,040
Speaker 1: So this act of survival shouldn't be a crime in

1541
01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:42,599
Speaker 1: the first place because it's an act of survival. Right.

1542
01:25:42,920 --> 01:25:47,120
Speaker 1: But when you understand it, that's just an act of survival, right,

1543
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:49,920
Speaker 1: then the idea of punishing a person for trying to

1544
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:58,080
Speaker 1: survive seems preposterous because it is. Yes, yeah, so, um.

1545
01:25:58,200 --> 01:26:00,960
Speaker 1: One example of the violence caused by open windows policing

1546
01:26:01,040 --> 01:26:04,360
Speaker 1: would be the famous and the tragic death of Eric Garner.

1547
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:07,479
Speaker 1: If you've forgotten, um, I know you haven't, but at home,

1548
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:10,799
Speaker 1: Garner was busted for selling cigarettes illegally. He was choked

1549
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:13,320
Speaker 1: to death by officers, and his famous cry I can't

1550
01:26:13,360 --> 01:26:15,680
Speaker 1: breathe has probably become the most powerful slogan of the

1551
01:26:15,720 --> 01:26:20,439
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter movement. Um just kind of sums everything up. Uh.

1552
01:26:20,479 --> 01:26:22,840
Speaker 1: You might be surprised to learn that Garners arrested not

1553
01:26:22,920 --> 01:26:25,040
Speaker 1: come as the result of like an individual officer just

1554
01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:27,400
Speaker 1: sort of like rolling around the neighborhood and spotting a

1555
01:26:27,400 --> 01:26:30,760
Speaker 1: guy breaking the law and choosing to do something. It

1556
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:33,800
Speaker 1: was actually ordered by the top brass because the local

1557
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:37,719
Speaker 1: business owners had complained about Garner's illegal cigarette sales harming

1558
01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:41,120
Speaker 1: their own businesses. So kind of back to episode two

1559
01:26:41,160 --> 01:26:43,360
Speaker 1: here where we're talking about like the police are formed

1560
01:26:43,600 --> 01:26:46,840
Speaker 1: to protect Yeah. Yeah, and it's good for you to

1561
01:26:46,840 --> 01:26:49,559
Speaker 1: point out, like what the crime was. It's Yes, if

1562
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:51,280
Speaker 1: you don't know this, it's a lucy it's when you

1563
01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:55,160
Speaker 1: just sell an individual cigarette, which is like apparently a

1564
01:26:55,200 --> 01:26:59,240
Speaker 1: capital crime. Yes, yeah, and is a perfectly normal thing

1565
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:01,400
Speaker 1: in a lot of the world everywhere in the world.

1566
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:04,000
Speaker 1: Like you you got ten dollars for a pack of cigarettes,

1567
01:27:04,040 --> 01:27:05,320
Speaker 1: so you're just trying to bum one of them. You're

1568
01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:07,880
Speaker 1: gonna walk around be like crette or I'll sell you

1569
01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:11,040
Speaker 1: one for a dollar like that. This is a listen

1570
01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:15,160
Speaker 1: and listen to me. Guys, that's a crime. Yeah. You

1571
01:27:15,320 --> 01:27:19,679
Speaker 1: to say how ridiculous that sounds like you gotta fucking bosnia.

1572
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:22,080
Speaker 1: You order a coffee, you'll get a cigarette with your coffee,

1573
01:27:22,080 --> 01:27:24,719
Speaker 1: but like, yeah you do that here, you're you're breaking

1574
01:27:24,720 --> 01:27:29,600
Speaker 1: the law. Yeah, Uh, make cigarettes mandatory. I think is

1575
01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:32,200
Speaker 1: the right, the right way to solve this problem. It's

1576
01:27:32,200 --> 01:27:36,760
Speaker 1: it's easy, right, So the NYPD dispatched a sizeable force

1577
01:27:36,800 --> 01:27:39,600
Speaker 1: to bust Garner, a plane closes unit and two sergeants

1578
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:43,040
Speaker 1: with uniformed backup, and the best case scenario from sending

1579
01:27:43,080 --> 01:27:45,800
Speaker 1: cops after him was that he would be stopped temporarily

1580
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:48,800
Speaker 1: from selling Lucy's. Eric had a long history of getting

1581
01:27:48,840 --> 01:27:51,599
Speaker 1: busted for petty crimes and going to jail. No sentence

1582
01:27:51,640 --> 01:27:54,640
Speaker 1: had dissuaded him from continuing to do this um, so

1583
01:27:54,720 --> 01:27:58,200
Speaker 1: there was no chance of anything happening. But temporarily having

1584
01:27:58,240 --> 01:28:01,080
Speaker 1: this guy in jail instead of selling loose cigarettes, that

1585
01:28:01,160 --> 01:28:03,559
Speaker 1: was the best case scenario. Yea, or just like go

1586
01:28:03,640 --> 01:28:06,360
Speaker 1: to another block, like all right, this guy don't like

1587
01:28:06,400 --> 01:28:07,720
Speaker 1: me in front of his store. I'm just gonna go

1588
01:28:07,760 --> 01:28:10,840
Speaker 1: down the street. Not really hard. Nobody's yeah, there was

1589
01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:14,160
Speaker 1: no gret Man. There was no way for any meaningful

1590
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:17,759
Speaker 1: public good to be gained by this interaction, and again

1591
01:28:18,080 --> 01:28:20,599
Speaker 1: the pot the worst case scenario which happened is that

1592
01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:26,200
Speaker 1: Garner died, which is what happened. Now. The NYPD institute

1593
01:28:26,280 --> 01:28:28,760
Speaker 1: more use of force training for its patrol officers after

1594
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:30,880
Speaker 1: Garner's death, so that the next guy the state sent

1595
01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:33,080
Speaker 1: armed men after for the crime of selling loose cigarettes

1596
01:28:33,120 --> 01:28:35,840
Speaker 1: would be less likely to get murdered. Um, but that

1597
01:28:35,960 --> 01:28:38,920
Speaker 1: didn't really doesn't really solve anything, is Alex fatally notes

1598
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:42,040
Speaker 1: quote such training ignores two important factors in Garner's death.

1599
01:28:42,200 --> 01:28:45,439
Speaker 1: The first is the officer's casual disregard for his well being,

1600
01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:48,520
Speaker 1: ignoring his cries of I can't breathe and they're seemingly

1601
01:28:48,600 --> 01:28:52,320
Speaker 1: indifferent reaction to his near lifelessness while awaiting an ambulance.

1602
01:28:52,640 --> 01:28:54,840
Speaker 1: This is a problem of values and seems to go

1603
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:56,879
Speaker 1: to the heart of the claim that for too many police,

1604
01:28:57,160 --> 01:29:01,040
Speaker 1: black lives don't matter. The second is broken window style policing,

1605
01:29:01,080 --> 01:29:03,960
Speaker 1: which targets low level and fractions for intensive, invasive and

1606
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:08,559
Speaker 1: aggressive enforcement. Now, the death of Gardner caused a flurry

1607
01:29:08,560 --> 01:29:11,280
Speaker 1: of national condemnation of the NYPD and a conflict between

1608
01:29:11,320 --> 01:29:14,000
Speaker 1: the department and Mayor Billed A. Blasio. As you'll recall,

1609
01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:16,760
Speaker 1: the NYPD can't strike over this sort of thing, but

1610
01:29:16,800 --> 01:29:19,200
Speaker 1: they were angry that the mayor hadn't enthusiastically backed them

1611
01:29:19,240 --> 01:29:21,080
Speaker 1: when some of their own had committed murder. So they

1612
01:29:21,160 --> 01:29:24,040
Speaker 1: launched a slowdown, which is basically a diet version of

1613
01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:26,080
Speaker 1: a strike. Is what we talked about a little bit earlier.

1614
01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:28,840
Speaker 1: For seven weeks, the New York Police only went out

1615
01:29:28,880 --> 01:29:31,080
Speaker 1: in pairs, only left their squad cars if they felt

1616
01:29:31,080 --> 01:29:35,560
Speaker 1: it was absolutely necessary, and they avoided all proactive policing measures.

1617
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:38,280
Speaker 1: This means that for the first time in decades, the

1618
01:29:38,400 --> 01:29:42,360
Speaker 1: NYPD stopped fucking with people who committed petty crimes and misdemeanors.

1619
01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:46,000
Speaker 1: The slowdown ended eventually, but researchers wanted to learn what

1620
01:29:46,080 --> 01:29:48,320
Speaker 1: impact it might have actually had on crime in the city.

1621
01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:51,600
Speaker 1: Their study, published in the Nature Journal Human Behavior, was

1622
01:29:51,640 --> 01:29:54,559
Speaker 1: based on Foyed CompStat reports from two thousand and thirteen

1623
01:29:54,600 --> 01:29:57,639
Speaker 1: to two thousand and sixteen. These reports include weekly activity

1624
01:29:57,680 --> 01:29:59,920
Speaker 1: for each NYPD precinct for all the rests and crim

1625
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:03,280
Speaker 1: atal activity. The study found that, not surprisingly, the rate

1626
01:30:03,320 --> 01:30:05,920
Speaker 1: of criminal summons is and stopping frisks and arrests had

1627
01:30:05,920 --> 01:30:09,040
Speaker 1: declined massively during the slowdown. This is what you'd expect

1628
01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:12,200
Speaker 1: because cops weren't doing that sort of work. But the

1629
01:30:12,240 --> 01:30:17,360
Speaker 1: researchers also found that civilian complaints of major crimes fell

1630
01:30:17,439 --> 01:30:21,280
Speaker 1: between three and six percent during the same period. Civilians

1631
01:30:21,280 --> 01:30:24,840
Speaker 1: reported forty three fewer felony assaults, forty fewer burglaries, and

1632
01:30:24,880 --> 01:30:28,000
Speaker 1: forty fewer acts of grand larceny. The drop in violent

1633
01:30:28,040 --> 01:30:31,759
Speaker 1: crime actually continued for several months after the slowdown, leading

1634
01:30:31,760 --> 01:30:35,680
Speaker 1: to an estimated twenty one hundred fewer major crime complaints.

1635
01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:39,479
Speaker 1: The study authors noted, quote, in their efforts to increase

1636
01:30:39,520 --> 01:30:44,040
Speaker 1: civilian compliance, certain policing tactics may inadvertently contribute to serious

1637
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:48,360
Speaker 1: criminal activity. The implications for understanding policing and a democratic

1638
01:30:48,439 --> 01:30:52,719
Speaker 1: society should not be understated. The researchers directly addressed broken

1639
01:30:52,760 --> 01:30:55,280
Speaker 1: windows policing and the stop and frisk style public order

1640
01:30:55,280 --> 01:30:58,120
Speaker 1: policing tactics introduced as a result of that theory. Quote.

1641
01:30:58,600 --> 01:31:01,400
Speaker 1: Our results imply not only that these tactics fail at

1642
01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:05,280
Speaker 1: their stated objective of reducing major legal violations, but also

1643
01:31:05,360 --> 01:31:08,920
Speaker 1: that the initial deployment of proactive policing can inspire additional

1644
01:31:08,960 --> 01:31:12,839
Speaker 1: crimes that later provide justification for further increasing police stops,

1645
01:31:13,000 --> 01:31:18,479
Speaker 1: summons is, and so forth. So so, so what you're

1646
01:31:18,479 --> 01:31:25,559
Speaker 1: saying is them not doing what they were doing actually helped. Yeah,

1647
01:31:25,720 --> 01:31:27,640
Speaker 1: if you had a d A who came in and

1648
01:31:27,680 --> 01:31:31,280
Speaker 1: said violent crime and like, complaints about major crimes by

1649
01:31:31,320 --> 01:31:34,120
Speaker 1: civilians dropped between three and six percent during my tenure,

1650
01:31:35,080 --> 01:31:38,559
Speaker 1: you could run for fucking state office, the federal office

1651
01:31:38,560 --> 01:31:41,519
Speaker 1: on that ship, right yeah. Yeah, And it's like, oh,

1652
01:31:41,600 --> 01:31:44,200
Speaker 1: we'll show you. I'll show you, guys how much you

1653
01:31:44,240 --> 01:31:47,679
Speaker 1: need as actually you are the problem. No, Actually, things

1654
01:31:47,680 --> 01:31:50,360
Speaker 1: actually seem a lot better. It's fine, you know what,

1655
01:31:51,080 --> 01:31:54,360
Speaker 1: keep going, keep slowing down, guys. You know, I wanted

1656
01:31:54,360 --> 01:31:56,599
Speaker 1: a single cigarette the other day. I bought it, nobody

1657
01:31:56,640 --> 01:32:01,120
Speaker 1: got choked. Yeah, it was fine. Everything like it's actually

1658
01:32:01,720 --> 01:32:05,759
Speaker 1: it seems like it's actually okay, dude. Yeah, I would

1659
01:32:05,800 --> 01:32:12,720
Speaker 1: love to somehow or another try to invoke just the

1660
01:32:13,240 --> 01:32:20,640
Speaker 1: empathy and emotions of what like stopping frisk did psychologically.

1661
01:32:21,640 --> 01:32:25,280
Speaker 1: You know, as a young man, you know, or just

1662
01:32:25,280 --> 01:32:28,559
Speaker 1: just as a person in that sort of context and environment.

1663
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:31,920
Speaker 1: And of course you know obviously that you know, Bloomberg

1664
01:32:32,400 --> 01:32:36,519
Speaker 1: didn't last in the in the it was a joke anyway,

1665
01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:39,840
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. But like, um, so, so

1666
01:32:40,040 --> 01:32:41,479
Speaker 1: there was no way I could have ever voted for

1667
01:32:41,520 --> 01:32:44,400
Speaker 1: him because I know what's psychologically what stopping frisk and

1668
01:32:44,439 --> 01:32:47,160
Speaker 1: like all that stuff did to us. But like, just

1669
01:32:47,439 --> 01:32:49,920
Speaker 1: I just think, think about what we're saying here is

1670
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:56,280
Speaker 1: you can get stopped and searched for nothing for the

1671
01:32:56,560 --> 01:33:02,639
Speaker 1: possibility that you might be doing something. So like it's

1672
01:33:02,640 --> 01:33:06,840
Speaker 1: just so moving about freely. You know. I brought up

1673
01:33:06,840 --> 01:33:08,960
Speaker 1: a game earlier, like because the the l A version

1674
01:33:09,000 --> 01:33:12,720
Speaker 1: of that was like the gang injunctions. So if you

1675
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:15,360
Speaker 1: were if if you and two of your friends happened

1676
01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:18,080
Speaker 1: to be walking home from basketball practice and your clothes

1677
01:33:18,160 --> 01:33:22,960
Speaker 1: kind of match, that's a gang, right, So no matter what,

1678
01:33:23,040 --> 01:33:26,080
Speaker 1: if there's more than one of you, you're in a gang.

1679
01:33:26,360 --> 01:33:29,200
Speaker 1: So and and and there's and there's a there's a

1680
01:33:29,280 --> 01:33:31,800
Speaker 1: there's a gang uptick. So like let's just say you

1681
01:33:31,840 --> 01:33:34,320
Speaker 1: do commit a petty crime or you were involved with

1682
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:36,920
Speaker 1: a committing with a petty crime. If you were with

1683
01:33:37,120 --> 01:33:41,720
Speaker 1: someone that was either in the in the system as

1684
01:33:41,760 --> 01:33:44,559
Speaker 1: a gang member, or it was more than one of you,

1685
01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:46,519
Speaker 1: you can get the gang up charge. So that just

1686
01:33:46,560 --> 01:33:49,920
Speaker 1: adds five years, right, even if something only took six

1687
01:33:50,000 --> 01:33:51,920
Speaker 1: even if it was like a petty crime and it

1688
01:33:51,960 --> 01:33:54,280
Speaker 1: was only like six to eight months probation, if you

1689
01:33:54,320 --> 01:33:57,080
Speaker 1: get the gang uptick is five years, right. So I

1690
01:33:57,360 --> 01:34:00,320
Speaker 1: it was dudes that like disappeared off the street eats.

1691
01:34:01,160 --> 01:34:04,240
Speaker 1: I we didn't until we were in college because of

1692
01:34:04,240 --> 01:34:08,519
Speaker 1: this stuff. So they came out of prison gangsters. They

1693
01:34:08,520 --> 01:34:10,960
Speaker 1: didn't go in gangsters that came out you know. So

1694
01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:16,519
Speaker 1: like I I'm ranting, but like like please understand the

1695
01:34:16,600 --> 01:34:27,800
Speaker 1: psychological like part of that. Yeah shit, you just yeah,

1696
01:34:28,200 --> 01:34:30,639
Speaker 1: you just like just that. I mean, I'm a full

1697
01:34:30,720 --> 01:34:34,080
Speaker 1: grown man. I paid freaking property taxes, I'm working on

1698
01:34:34,120 --> 01:34:38,639
Speaker 1: a damn home loan right now, and I still whenever

1699
01:34:38,680 --> 01:34:41,000
Speaker 1: I just hear that whoo whoo, my body is still

1700
01:34:41,080 --> 01:34:44,479
Speaker 1: just kind of like uh uh yeah, Like that's the

1701
01:34:44,520 --> 01:34:48,120
Speaker 1: fucking thing to me, is like like we talked such

1702
01:34:48,160 --> 01:34:51,360
Speaker 1: a fucking good game in this country about what freedom

1703
01:34:51,439 --> 01:34:55,200
Speaker 1: is and if you live in a country, we're a

1704
01:34:55,320 --> 01:34:58,719
Speaker 1: huge percentage if not most because fucking white people feel

1705
01:34:58,760 --> 01:35:01,400
Speaker 1: this way when they hear the of the police. Everyone's

1706
01:35:01,439 --> 01:35:06,280
Speaker 1: scared of them. If you've got this unaccountable group of

1707
01:35:06,400 --> 01:35:09,719
Speaker 1: armed people who can funk up your day and possibly

1708
01:35:09,720 --> 01:35:12,120
Speaker 1: the rest of your life at any moment for no reason,

1709
01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:14,960
Speaker 1: even if you haven't done something wrong and experience no consequences.

1710
01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:20,799
Speaker 1: If that's built into your system, you're not free. Whatever

1711
01:35:21,000 --> 01:35:26,440
Speaker 1: nebulous concept freedom is, that's not it. It's not it. Yeah, Um,

1712
01:35:26,680 --> 01:35:29,640
Speaker 1: go back to the script. Yeah, the script is, the

1713
01:35:29,680 --> 01:35:31,760
Speaker 1: script is done. This is this is what we had

1714
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:35,559
Speaker 1: for today. Um. Yeah, we're gonna talk about the Texas

1715
01:35:35,640 --> 01:35:38,200
Speaker 1: Rangers some which will be fun, and the militarization of police.

1716
01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:41,479
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about the TV show Cops. Yeah, that'll

1717
01:35:41,520 --> 01:35:43,400
Speaker 1: be That'll be it for a little series which is

1718
01:35:43,400 --> 01:35:46,840
Speaker 1: going to leave out just so much stuff, but doing

1719
01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:49,960
Speaker 1: doing the best we can over here. Man, I hope.

1720
01:35:50,400 --> 01:35:53,439
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say this on record that like, man, what

1721
01:35:53,520 --> 01:35:56,479
Speaker 1: you've done for the cause by doing this you and

1722
01:35:56,520 --> 01:36:00,559
Speaker 1: selfie like man ya don't put yah, don't put stones

1723
01:36:00,600 --> 01:36:05,280
Speaker 1: and slingshots, boy by, Like this is just seven to

1724
01:36:05,400 --> 01:36:09,679
Speaker 1: ten hours of receipts that you know what I'm saying like, man,

1725
01:36:09,800 --> 01:36:12,080
Speaker 1: we appreciate this work. I know I'm a part of

1726
01:36:12,560 --> 01:36:17,240
Speaker 1: appreciate y'all for doing this. I mean, I think it's like,

1727
01:36:18,960 --> 01:36:21,559
Speaker 1: you know, it came at a certain point, like during

1728
01:36:21,600 --> 01:36:26,040
Speaker 1: covering the protests, where like things were starting to die down,

1729
01:36:26,080 --> 01:36:28,760
Speaker 1: in part because like people were getting exhausted, in part

1730
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:31,040
Speaker 1: because the police got in trouble for all of the violence,

1731
01:36:31,040 --> 01:36:33,320
Speaker 1: and it was like, what's the next thing to do.

1732
01:36:33,760 --> 01:36:36,680
Speaker 1: It's make sure everybody like you want to you want

1733
01:36:36,680 --> 01:36:39,479
Speaker 1: to keep people. People have to be angry about this

1734
01:36:39,600 --> 01:36:41,439
Speaker 1: for a long time if it's going to change, right,

1735
01:36:41,479 --> 01:36:43,840
Speaker 1: this is like, this is this is a long fight.

1736
01:36:44,280 --> 01:36:46,240
Speaker 1: This is not going We're not gonna like, no one's

1737
01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:49,960
Speaker 1: gonna like, like, in order to get one police department

1738
01:36:50,120 --> 01:36:53,400
Speaker 1: taken down in Minneapolis, and it hasn't yet happened, but

1739
01:36:53,439 --> 01:36:55,360
Speaker 1: it looks like it's going to happen, they had to

1740
01:36:55,439 --> 01:36:59,160
Speaker 1: burn a precinct. Like it was hard, had to get

1741
01:36:59,240 --> 01:37:02,960
Speaker 1: that far. Yeah, they they they fought like they fought

1742
01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:07,439
Speaker 1: like motherfucker's just to take that down. Um, and that's

1743
01:37:07,439 --> 01:37:10,160
Speaker 1: just not going to happen nationwide. And but I we

1744
01:37:10,200 --> 01:37:12,479
Speaker 1: still need to stop this, and the only way to

1745
01:37:12,479 --> 01:37:15,000
Speaker 1: do that is to get enough people angry long enough

1746
01:37:15,479 --> 01:37:17,599
Speaker 1: that they wear them down. This is not like, it's

1747
01:37:17,640 --> 01:37:19,439
Speaker 1: not as simple as a vote in better people, And

1748
01:37:19,439 --> 01:37:21,439
Speaker 1: anyone who says that, like, okay, well, the real way

1749
01:37:21,439 --> 01:37:24,320
Speaker 1: to fix this is vote is lying to you. Voting

1750
01:37:24,479 --> 01:37:26,120
Speaker 1: is one part of the effort. And the only way

1751
01:37:26,200 --> 01:37:30,080
Speaker 1: voting works is if there is like clearly enough rage

1752
01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:35,160
Speaker 1: and anger and um and and activity in the street

1753
01:37:35,439 --> 01:37:38,479
Speaker 1: that it necessitates action. That number one, local governments are

1754
01:37:38,560 --> 01:37:40,160
Speaker 1: scared by the number of people out in the streets

1755
01:37:40,160 --> 01:37:42,280
Speaker 1: and realize that we're all gonna lose our fucking jobs

1756
01:37:42,280 --> 01:37:46,680
Speaker 1: if we don't do something. Um. And also, physically exhausting

1757
01:37:46,680 --> 01:37:49,439
Speaker 1: the police is a part of it. Um Running out

1758
01:37:49,439 --> 01:37:52,000
Speaker 1: there fucking budgets is a part of it. Making them

1759
01:37:52,000 --> 01:37:54,720
Speaker 1: realize that they are not making it. Making it not

1760
01:37:55,040 --> 01:37:58,200
Speaker 1: pleasurable to be an officer because people don't view you

1761
01:37:58,280 --> 01:38:00,840
Speaker 1: positively is a part of it. For all of like,

1762
01:38:00,880 --> 01:38:02,240
Speaker 1: all of this is a part of it. Getting rid

1763
01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:03,880
Speaker 1: of cops was I think a bigger part of it

1764
01:38:03,880 --> 01:38:07,240
Speaker 1: than a lot of people realize. And I my hope

1765
01:38:07,240 --> 01:38:10,599
Speaker 1: with this is that it it helps keep people angry

1766
01:38:10,720 --> 01:38:15,080
Speaker 1: enough to stay in the fight and make the changes happen.

1767
01:38:16,320 --> 01:38:20,360
Speaker 1: You ever heard of Carl von Klauswitz. No, Klauswitz was

1768
01:38:20,560 --> 01:38:23,360
Speaker 1: a German military he's like a he was a general,

1769
01:38:23,400 --> 01:38:25,800
Speaker 1: but he was also like a like. He wrote a

1770
01:38:25,800 --> 01:38:28,559
Speaker 1: lot about strategy. He was He's very influential in the

1771
01:38:28,600 --> 01:38:31,559
Speaker 1: field of like thinking about how to to conduct war.

1772
01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:34,840
Speaker 1: And Klauswitz had a definition of war that is not

1773
01:38:35,280 --> 01:38:37,960
Speaker 1: all not not everyone agrees with it, but I find

1774
01:38:38,000 --> 01:38:41,320
Speaker 1: it really compelling. He defined war as the continuation of

1775
01:38:41,360 --> 01:38:47,280
Speaker 1: politics through other means. Um. And police have been talking

1776
01:38:47,280 --> 01:38:48,960
Speaker 1: about how there's a war on police for a very

1777
01:38:48,960 --> 01:38:51,280
Speaker 1: long time, and I think that the actual falling number

1778
01:38:51,320 --> 01:38:53,880
Speaker 1: over forty years, you know, the number of police officers

1779
01:38:53,920 --> 01:38:56,880
Speaker 1: killed and wounded the line of duty is continually fallen. Um.

1780
01:38:57,000 --> 01:38:59,400
Speaker 1: I don't think it's accurate in like the literal sense,

1781
01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:01,479
Speaker 1: but I do think you can look at what the

1782
01:39:01,520 --> 01:39:04,160
Speaker 1: police have been doing and stopping frisk is a big

1783
01:39:04,240 --> 01:39:06,559
Speaker 1: part of it, as a war on the people of

1784
01:39:06,600 --> 01:39:10,280
Speaker 1: this country and responding in kind. It's not it's not

1785
01:39:10,360 --> 01:39:12,320
Speaker 1: us sitting in the trenches with a rifle. It's not

1786
01:39:12,360 --> 01:39:14,800
Speaker 1: necessarily even on our side of things, it's not a

1787
01:39:15,439 --> 01:39:18,360
Speaker 1: it's not a doing violence to human beings. War, but

1788
01:39:18,439 --> 01:39:20,640
Speaker 1: it's it's not dissimilar from the kind of war that

1789
01:39:20,680 --> 01:39:23,320
Speaker 1: like the Russian government has been attempting to carry out

1790
01:39:23,360 --> 01:39:26,320
Speaker 1: in places like Ukraine and Georgia. It is a it

1791
01:39:26,400 --> 01:39:30,200
Speaker 1: is a very complicated conflict, but it is a it

1792
01:39:30,320 --> 01:39:34,840
Speaker 1: is a conflict. UM And Yeah, I hope that this

1793
01:39:34,920 --> 01:39:39,640
Speaker 1: is has provided some some additional munitions. Yes, and it

1794
01:39:39,720 --> 01:39:43,960
Speaker 1: has good on you. Well, Prop, you want to plug

1795
01:39:43,960 --> 01:39:46,599
Speaker 1: your plug doubles before we roll out? I do this

1796
01:39:46,680 --> 01:39:50,320
Speaker 1: is ah, this is proper hip hop over here. Uh.

1797
01:39:50,520 --> 01:39:54,800
Speaker 1: Website and Instagram and all those things are prop hip

1798
01:39:54,840 --> 01:40:01,719
Speaker 1: hop dot com. Um, there's and T shirts and music

1799
01:40:02,760 --> 01:40:08,759
Speaker 1: uh in other podcasts that I'm part of. UM and

1800
01:40:09,120 --> 01:40:12,439
Speaker 1: I am don't have anything else to plug because I'm

1801
01:40:12,439 --> 01:40:18,519
Speaker 1: reliving my teen years in my head right now. Shit.

1802
01:40:20,600 --> 01:40:22,600
Speaker 1: And I am very happy to be a part of this.

1803
01:40:22,640 --> 01:40:25,400
Speaker 1: I'm very happy to be heard. That's another reference that

1804
01:40:25,479 --> 01:40:27,760
Speaker 1: Sophie appreciate that you won't know what I'm talking about.

1805
01:40:27,800 --> 01:40:30,439
Speaker 1: I I don't. I didn't get that at all. It's

1806
01:40:30,439 --> 01:40:35,719
Speaker 1: all good. It's coming to America, man, oh shit, Oh okay, okay.

1807
01:40:35,720 --> 01:40:40,920
Speaker 1: So at some point, Chris Daniel, whoever doing this, do

1808
01:40:41,000 --> 01:40:43,960
Speaker 1: not cut this part out at some point when all

1809
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:48,360
Speaker 1: this ship is over, Sophie and I we're going to

1810
01:40:48,520 --> 01:40:52,960
Speaker 1: spend one to two days at least, and I am

1811
01:40:53,040 --> 01:40:58,799
Speaker 1: just going to indoctrinate you in all of just black

1812
01:40:58,880 --> 01:41:04,760
Speaker 1: culture references, isban culture references that you should know. And

1813
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:07,439
Speaker 1: I just like, and you would appreciate, you know what

1814
01:41:07,520 --> 01:41:09,559
Speaker 1: I'm saying. I'm just like, I need you to know

1815
01:41:09,640 --> 01:41:13,120
Speaker 1: these jokes. I think that's a great idea. Actually, yeah,

1816
01:41:13,640 --> 01:41:15,200
Speaker 1: we can. I mean I know I need to. I've

1817
01:41:15,200 --> 01:41:16,640
Speaker 1: been told for a while I need to watch do

1818
01:41:16,720 --> 01:41:19,439
Speaker 1: the right thing. I think that's it correct. Yeah. Yeah,

1819
01:41:20,280 --> 01:41:22,040
Speaker 1: And then there's the other there's the one that's about

1820
01:41:22,120 --> 01:41:27,840
Speaker 1: the fucking like the fast food joint or something, and like, um,

1821
01:41:28,960 --> 01:41:33,559
Speaker 1: I don't even know where you're going, Okay maybe yeah, wait,

1822
01:41:33,640 --> 01:41:36,719
Speaker 1: so yeah, you gotta do Harlem Nights. You gotta watch,

1823
01:41:37,320 --> 01:41:39,240
Speaker 1: you gotta watch do the right thing. You need to

1824
01:41:39,280 --> 01:41:41,599
Speaker 1: see soul food, you gotta see the colored Purple, you

1825
01:41:41,600 --> 01:41:45,000
Speaker 1: gotta see Friday. There's a lot of we gotta catch

1826
01:41:45,040 --> 01:41:47,599
Speaker 1: you up, man, because yeah, and I feel like you'd

1827
01:41:47,600 --> 01:41:50,200
Speaker 1: appreciate all these. Yeah, I know, do the right Thing

1828
01:41:50,280 --> 01:41:52,000
Speaker 1: is the one that I was thinking about. That's the

1829
01:41:52,040 --> 01:41:54,240
Speaker 1: one at the pizza shop. Yea, yeah, the pizza shop. Yeah,

1830
01:41:54,520 --> 01:41:56,800
Speaker 1: do the right thing. Yeah, okay, okay, all right, you

1831
01:41:56,800 --> 01:41:58,920
Speaker 1: need to know the radio. Rahim is, Yeah, you gotta

1832
01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:02,280
Speaker 1: know this stuff. We do this all right, but first

1833
01:42:02,360 --> 01:42:06,240
Speaker 1: we're going to go away and come back on Thursday.

1834
01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:08,680
Speaker 1: Talk about the police for like another ninety minutes. So

1835
01:42:08,720 --> 01:42:13,640
Speaker 1: buckle buckle up for that. Lads and ladies, boyos and

1836
01:42:14,640 --> 01:42:21,240
Speaker 1: non binarios. And there's not enough good slang yet. It

1837
01:42:21,280 --> 01:42:27,720
Speaker 1: hasn't caught up to changes in our cultural conversation. We

1838
01:42:27,800 --> 01:42:32,639
Speaker 1: can end the podcast, all right, all right, Oh boy,

1839
01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:35,000
Speaker 1: there's a threat about wanting to hear me rap on

1840
01:42:35,040 --> 01:42:38,880
Speaker 1: the Reddit. That's probably a bad idea. Oh that's happening, bro.

1841
01:42:43,479 --> 01:42:45,599
Speaker 1: Behind the Police is a production of I Heeart Radio.

1842
01:42:45,840 --> 01:42:48,240
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I

1843
01:42:48,320 --> 01:42:52,560
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1844
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:55,680
Speaker 1: Make sure to check out Drink Champs, your number one

1845
01:42:55,760 --> 01:42:59,080
Speaker 1: music podcast on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Host A O.

1846
01:42:59,280 --> 01:43:01,160
Speaker 1: R E and DJ E f N sat down with

1847
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Speaker 1: artists and icon yea, which Vulture called one of most

1848
01:43:05,160 --> 01:43:09,160
Speaker 1: significant interviews. I literally had to go like Danos and

1849
01:43:09,160 --> 01:43:10,880
Speaker 1: I don't want to have to be the villain. But

1850
01:43:10,960 --> 01:43:14,400
Speaker 1: when I went and did the Donda thing, they returned

1851
01:43:14,920 --> 01:43:17,960
Speaker 1: and Abody had to sit back and watch the real leader.

1852
01:43:18,240 --> 01:43:20,960
Speaker 1: Check out drink Champ's conversation with Yea and many more

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Speaker 1: legendary artists each and every Friday on the I Heart

1854
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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your

1855
01:43:26,560 --> 01:43:31,240
Speaker 1: favorite shows. This is Roxanne Gay, the host of The

1856
01:43:31,320 --> 01:43:34,960
Speaker 1: Roxanne Gay Agenda, the back feminist podcast of your dreams.

1857
01:43:35,640 --> 01:43:39,759
Speaker 1: Each week I talked to an interesting person about feminism, race,

1858
01:43:40,280 --> 01:43:44,880
Speaker 1: writing in books and art, food, pop culture, and yes, politics,

1859
01:43:44,920 --> 01:43:49,600
Speaker 1: we can't escape politics. Listen to the Luminary original podcast,

1860
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Speaker 1: The Roxanne Gay Agenda every Tuesday on the I Heart

1861
01:43:53,000 --> 01:43:57,440
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1862
01:44:00,479 --> 01:44:03,479
Speaker 1: We've all felt left out, and for people who move

1863
01:44:03,520 --> 01:44:06,040
Speaker 1: to this country, that feeling lasts more than a moment.

1864
01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:09,920
Speaker 1: We can change that. Learn how it. Belonging begins with

1865
01:44:10,000 --> 01:44:12,679
Speaker 1: us dot org. Brought to you by the AD Council