WEBVTT - The Case of Sacco and Vanzetti 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.560 Welcome to Stuff you should know from how Stuff Works 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:14.240 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.360 and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's guest producer 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:19.479 Josh over there. So you put the three of us 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:21.960 together there and we're gonna get a little true crime 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:29.080 history on you with the trial of Saco and ben Zi. Yeah, 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:33.840 these guys, I mean a little backstory on I guess 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:38.360 the time we're talking about the nineties in the United States. 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:44.479 We're talking about, uh, two gentlemen that we're both anarchists 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:52.120 that were both Italian immigrants and both supposedly, um, followers 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:58.200 of this really notable anarchists named Luigi Galiani, who Uh 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:01.600 this guy was um sort of an anarchist leader. He 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:06.960 put out an anarchist rag he was um called for violence. Um. 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:12.280 He has a history of authorizing like bombing's assassination attempts. Um, 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.920 like really tough stuff. And so this is who um 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:21.120 supposedly Saco and Vinzetti were, you know, I guess by 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:27.560 association advocating, advocating, sure, advocating for this type of violence 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:34.760 themselves as immigrant anarchists. Do you remember in our anarchism episode. 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.400 Like during this period, in like a ten year period, 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.560 anarchists assassinated like five or six major heads of state 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:47.360 around the world, including McKinley in the United States. It 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:50.920 was a big deal. It was a big deal. And um, 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:53.400 I mean there was also a struggle going on for 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.920 the soul of America. Where we're gonna be socialists, where 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:00.440 we're gonna be capitalists? Should we just go with anarchism? Um, 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:05.800 there was a lot of a lot of debate over 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.919 you know, which which economy we should go with, or 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:11.960 what what politics we should go with. And there was 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:14.960 something of a red scare because communism was on the 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:17.239 table too. There was a red scare at the time too. 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:19.920 So it wasn't like the kind of time you would 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:23.320 walk around like, yeah, I'm an anarchist, get on board, 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:25.280 you know. But and at the same time, if you 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.200 weren't an anarchist, you're probably scared of our anarchists because 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:30.919 they would bomb stuff and they were well known for 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:33.400 it too. Yeah, So I mean this is not just 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.960 the United States, like all over the world. Um, there 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:42.239 were political radicals that was violence from anarchy and and 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:44.839 riots and like you said, people trying to take down 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:48.520 like politicians or judges that were deporting, at least the 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:52.399 United States deporting immigrant anarchists back to their home countries 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:56.799 like as quickly as they could root them out, basically, right, 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:59.720 So this is sort of the stage in the early 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:03.000 night teen twenties. UM, and I guess we should hop 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.440 in the way back machine. Oh yes, and head on 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:17.040 over to Boston Town. Okay, that's Boston by the way. Yeah, no, 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.200 I know, it doesn't matter if I know. Just make 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:21.880 sure the way back machiners, the way back machine those 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:25.359 it can read my silly accents. So so here we are. 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:29.760 It's ninety around Boston. Actually we're not in Boston proper. 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.320 We're about ten ten miles south in the little town 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.960 of Braintree, which is these days would be Boston proper. 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.160 So I mean, you know, yes, it's like the metro 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:43.480 Boston area. UM and Braintree was known as a shoe 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:47.800 manufacturing center had more than one shoe company, which meant 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:51.920 it was a shoe manufacturing center and UM on this 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:55.840 particular day in April of I think it was April. 0:03:56.480 --> 0:04:02.440 Right in Braintree, there was a named Shelley Neil who 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:07.040 was an agent for the American Express Company. And the 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.640 function I got of Shelly Neil was that he would 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.360 he was kind of like a a Brinx armed guard 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:21.200 basically for money, and not just some money, like a 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.840 lot of money. On this day, from the nine eighteen 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:28.600 AM train from Boston, Shelley Neil went to the Braintree, uh, 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:32.599 the brain Tree train depot and picked up thirty thousand 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:37.240 dollars thirty grand in cash, which is about four d 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:41.159 and twenty seven thousand dollars in two thousand eighteen money. 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.880 Did this every week, right. Um, he picked it up 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:48.400 and he took it back to his office, and um 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.400 he opened up a metal box and inside had to 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:57.080 two canvas bags, and each was the payroll for um 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.920 one of the two shoe companies that he picked up 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.240 money for, one of which was called Slater in Morrell. 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:05.680 I'm not sure what the other one was. Maybe it 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:09.320 was three K. Definitely Slater in Morrell was one of them. 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:13.440 The other was New Balance. Okay, so Slater in Morrill 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.560 and New Balance we're the ones whose payroll he had 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:19.200 on him that day. Yeah, And it's it's so amazing 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.160 how that stuff used to work back then, Like how 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:24.640 payroll was just so low fi. It would literally be 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:28.400 a huge amount of cash delivered in a box that 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:30.960 he would take to an office and someone would sit 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:36.440 there and stuff cash into envelopes to then go to 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.520 like a factory to pay off employees, not payoff, but 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:43.000 to pay to pay them there legit check from working. 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.599 You didn't see nothing this week. This is for all 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:49.680 the shoe leather, alright. So that's how it worked back then, 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:51.359 And so this is what he was doing. It's just 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:55.560 like any other Thursday. UM. However, on this day, as 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.280 he went in, he noticed a car out front that 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:02.040 he had not seen before, this big car that had 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:05.560 like these little curtains on the inside windows that were 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:10.080 pulled shut. And other people in Braintree UM later on 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:12.960 would report seeing that car kind of tooling around and 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:15.440 they said, it looks like it's got like four or 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:18.480 five men inside that look Italian and they're just sort 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:24.080 of driving around Braintree, which I guess to raise some suspicions. Sure, 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.599 because again, if you were Italian, UM, you may have 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:33.159 been associated with anarchists who were associated with bomb throwing. 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:36.400 So four or five of them kind of aimlessly driving 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.839 around the town of Braintree. This little tiny town. I'm 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.159 sure arouse some suspicions and definitely did because there were 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:45.400 a lot of people who later on said that they 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:50.600 saw this car driving around between nine am and twelve pm. 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.560 That's right, so about three that afternoon. Um, here's what 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.600 happened next for payroll. Uh, these people had to get 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.680 these envelopes. So what's known as a paymaster and this 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:02.760 is also sort of part of the arm guard thing, 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:07.520 um because the paymaster a has a gun and then 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.840 has a guard with a gun. This guy's name was 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:16.600 Freddie Parmenter and the guard was Alessandro Barra Delli. And 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:19.120 so they stopped by, they pick up all these envelopes. 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:21.960 They're going down to the factory. They're gonna pay everybody, 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:27.480 and all of a sudden, bam bam bam bam, gunfire 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:32.440 and mayhem ensues. I didn't realize there's gonna be special 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:37.880 effects in this episode. Hey, well you know you did. Man, 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:41.400 it has been brought it. Um. So they're these guys 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.320 are on Pearl Street and when these shots suddenly just 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:49.200 ring out, and um, the first guy's hit, Barret ellis 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.280 hit uh and he goes down. I believe it was 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.040 Barre Deli who was hit first. Um, Oh, no, he 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:58.360 wasn't hit. It was Parlimenter who was hit. Barret Deli 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.040 is on the ground, um, and he has lost his 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.560 gun and he's being approached by a man with a 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:09.040 gun on him and uh Baradeli apparently has begged for 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:11.320 his life to no avail. The man shoots him in 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:15.120 the chest at least once and the bullet um punctures 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:18.360 his lungs uh, one of his major arteries, to his 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:21.840 heart and then lodge its lodges itself and its hip 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:25.000 to be fished out later on by a corner and 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:29.320 used in the case against Sacco and Vanzettie. Uh. The 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.400 other guy, Parlman or the paymaster. Uh. He gets hit 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:37.079 a few times, staggers across the street and um and collapses. 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:41.400 And this car a blue touring car, um, which is 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:43.400 you know, a big sedan that you would think of 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:46.160 today like a touring We'll call it a Lincoln town car, 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:48.640 even though it's not at all what it was. That 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:52.560 blue car that had been seen kind of driving driving around, right, 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:54.960 that's another way to put it. It was abut yeah, 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:59.040 but the same one that had been seen driving slowly 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:02.439 around Braintree all morning. Suddenly pulls up and the guys 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:05.320 who had shot these these two men and taken the 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:09.000 money about fifteen thousand dollars um hopped in and that 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:12.920 drove off and everyone lost sight of it. Yeah, and 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:16.920 very importantly, the man who shot Baradelli had a hat 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:20.440 a felt cap on, right, So just remember that little 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.000 fact um. There were eyewitnesses all over the place. It's 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.000 not like no one saw this happen. Like dozens of 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:31.120 people saw this. Yeah, it was a daring daylight robbery 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:35.520 at three o'clock in the afternoon. Daring do right man 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:39.120 named Jimmy Bostock was one of the witnesses. Apparently Barredelli 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.680 like died in his arms, and like all people in 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:46.280 the nineteen twenties, didn't know any better. He immediately started 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:50.000 messing with the crime scene, started picking up gun shells. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.600 Another guy came by and picked up the hat, and 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:55.760 you know, they just didn't know any better at the time, 0:09:55.800 --> 0:10:01.240 I guess, right, So um, they the crime scene has 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:03.800 been totally messed up. But the cops show up because 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:05.480 again this is a big deal. This is a small 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:09.840 town and something close to two hundred and twenty thousand 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:13.080 dollars has just been stolen and two men murdered for 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.720 it in this little tiny town. So it's a big deal. 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:18.559 And the cops showed up, and probably the first thing 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:24.360 they said was anarchists. Maybe, I'll bet that's kind of 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:28.319 what they would say. I think at the time. Should 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.839 we take a break? Geez? Okay already, yeah, I think 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:34.880 so that. I mean this falls into acts and that's 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:38.760 definitely act one. Okay, alright, So dead men in the street, 0:10:39.720 --> 0:11:03.600 the cops are on the scene, and scene and shock 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:15.120 is the ant scene or end scene, Chuck, We've talked 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:21.600 about this a lot and scene end scene Nope, because 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:29.640 it makes sense, you know, you do in the scene, right. So. Um, So, 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.800 the the cops have shown up, they're investigating the place. Um, 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:38.800 they're not really finding anything aside from what the witnesses 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:41.520 have already kind of gathered up and now holding out 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:47.480 to them in their outstretched palms, like here's your evidence, copper, Um. 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:51.960 But the uh, the cars searched for all over and 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:55.280 it's not found. It just totally disappears for a couple 0:11:55.320 --> 0:12:00.800 of days. Um, And the the turns up a couple 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:04.720 of days later in the woods. I believe south of Braintree, 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.480 in a place called Bridgewater, which is a little even 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:09.920 further south from Boston. I think it's another like ten 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:15.040 or so miles down south from um from Braintree, right. 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.360 I think Bridgewater only had seven dunkin Donuts, so it 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.960 was a small town, right. And so remember when I 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:26.000 said the cops were probably like anarchists. I knew it. Um, 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:30.120 there was another daylight robbery of payroll, and I found 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:33.320 somewhere that it said it was successful. I found somewhere 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:35.920 else that it was unsuccessful. But both of them agreed 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.720 there had been no loss of life whatsoever. But it 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:41.679 was similar enough, and it had happened like two years 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.200 or a year before. Um, it was similar enough that 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:49.080 the cops immediately thought of the people they've been thinking 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.520 of for this, for this earlier crime. They thought, this 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:57.000 is clearly the work of the same people. Yeah. And um, 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:59.560 when they found this car in the woods, very importantly, 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:03.360 that the license plates had been ripped off, and there 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:09.240 were other tire tracks nearby, so it seemed pretty obvious that, uh, 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.559 you know, they ditched this car get in another one. 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:14.920 The officer on the scene said, Maddie, I think this 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:19.000 is a car from the Braintree meta. All I can 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:22.880 think of is Jeremy Renner in in the town. Sure, 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.000 that's that's what I think of when I think Boston. Yeah, 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:31.400 everyone thinks of that. So, um, another thing's going on 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.600 in parallel, So we need to set this up. Um. Also, 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:39.240 on April fifte which is the day of those maritas, Um, 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:44.240 there was a guy named uh Ferruccio Cocchi, and he 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:49.000 lived in Bridgewater. He was an anarchist. He was being deported. Uh, 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:51.840 so he quits his job, you know, to be deported. Um, 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.960 does not show up to be deported. Uh. He calls 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.720 the Immigration service after that on the six and said, uh, 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:00.680 you know my wife is a because I have to 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:04.840 tind to her. And they said about am I gonna 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.079 get in trouble for that? Now? No, you won't control 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.040 everybody loves your Italian XS. At least tell me you 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:11.520 can still do an Italian accent, right, I think? So 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:15.640 we're going to find out after this episode, um, because 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.960 I'm just doing the accent, not saying like they're all mobsters, 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:22.040 because like, you know, the Sopranos got in trouble for that, 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:27.440 Oh yeah did they did? They say all Italians were mobsters. No, 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:29.880 but I mean I remember they're just being hey about 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:32.880 from the Italian American community, Like, why is it every 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.280 time in movies were just mobsters? Oh I could see that, 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.240 you know, sure, I mean I could see them. Yeah, 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.800 but these aren't even mobs. No, they're anarchists. Right. So 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:45.680 he's being deported, he doesn't go. He calls them and says, 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.840 my wife is sick, and they said, fine, we're gonna 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.200 check out your story. Though they found that his wife 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.720 was not sick, and that all of a sudden, he's saying, okay, 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.280 it's fine. Actually I'm really ready to go, Like now, 0:14:58.120 --> 0:14:59.800 come on, come on, can you get me out of 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:02.240 the entry quickly? And they're like, well, you should probably 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:04.240 like leave some money with your wife. He's like, no, no no, no, 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.160 she's good, So let's just go. Yeah, And so they're like, 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.560 all right, this is a little odd, so let's maybe 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:13.480 he's involved. Can I can I paint the scene a 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:15.080 little bit? Though? I want to go back over and 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.880 highlight two things that you've mentioned so far. One, this 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:22.560 was a time where to cover up a crime, all 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:24.880 you had to do was remove the license plates on 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.640 the car you ditched. That was it. You just confounded 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:32.240 the cops forever. That helped. And then secondly, if you 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.560 were to be deported, all you had to do is 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:36.480 not show up, but then call him the next day 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.120 and say your wife was sick and and Immigration and 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.880 Naturalization would say, sure, no problem. Well no were they 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.960 investigated immediately. Okay, but I'm just saying, like this is 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:50.000 things have changed to tas think is what I'm trying 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:51.640 to say. Hold on, let me let me see, Trush, 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:53.160 what are you trying to say. You're trying to say that. Yeah, 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:55.840 I'm trying to say that. Yes, that's exactly what I'm 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.160 trying to say. It's weird because you looked on both 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.640 of your shoulders at the devil and the angel. Right, 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:08.760 they won't shut up, Chuck, so uh they some they summarize, 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:12.360 you know, it's all coming together. This guy's acting weird. Well, 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:16.080 he's he's also choked one of those people that they 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.080 liked for that that um robbery the the year before, 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.760 which is one of the reasons why they had their 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.200 intent up about this guy in the first place. Right, 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:28.520 So he's a suspect. The coops go to, uh specifically 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.320 um Michael Stewart, police chief, said, I'm gonna go back 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:34.360 to his house. I'm gonna see what else I can 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:37.520 find out from this guy. He shows up and there's 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.280 a dude there named Mike Boda, who says, yeah, sure, 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:41.720 you can look around. You can look in the house, 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.320 go back and look in the garage. Two car garage shed, 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:49.040 no problem. Uh, usually have my car there. It's an Overland, 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:53.280 but it's in the shop getting repaired. And Steward goes 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:55.360 out there and it's like, all right, so here's where 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:59.080 the Overland parks. But there's some really big tire tracks 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:02.000 next to the over and uh and the second stall 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.199 that looked like they would probably fit this large buick 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.040 that was so mysteriously kind of tooling around around the 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:12.479 time of this murder, right, and this cop Stewart goes, 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.120 mm hmm, I'm gonna make a mental note of that. 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:21.040 And that's what he did. He he asked about the uh, 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:23.240 the the other car. I don't know if you said, 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:25.800 bodhas said that his other car was at the garage 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:30.680 being repaired. So, um so Stewart, who's the police chief 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:32.560 of bridge Ward. I think I get the impression he 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:34.560 was kind of new there's another one who kind of 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:38.399 factors into this case tangentially later on Um who was 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:40.720 the former police chief. So I get the impression that 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.160 Michael Stewart was fairly new, but he's investigating this case. 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:47.240 He likes Koachi. He's now met Mike Boda, who is 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.040 suspicious of two Um. He goes back to talk to 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:53.439 bodas some more to this place where Kachi lived uh 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.600 as Boda's roommate, I guess, away from his wife and kids. 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.040 I'm not sure why Koachi was running this place. We 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:01.639 go with coaching, now, yeah, I'm pretty sure that's it. 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:03.840 I took Italian in college, and I'm almost a hundred 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.200 percent sure it's Coachi. Do you remember from our Dyslexi 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:11.520 episode where Italian is extremely easy to learn because there's 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.760 just very few ways to to write things, to write 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:17.440 the phone names. One of the reasons it is easier 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.680 because it's kind of like Polish. It's in most most 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.720 cases it's actually easier than Polish. But it's pronounced just 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:27.040 like it's spelled, except for the C I is a sound. 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:33.399 So Kachi, Okay, all right, that was your Italian lesson. 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.720 I appreciate that after all these years. The other lesson 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:41.080 not all Italians or Italian Americans or mobsters. That's your 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:44.600 other Italian lesson. Now okay, so, um, I've a bunch 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:48.760 of Italians Italian Americans and none of them were mobsters. Bam, 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:53.680 there you go. Um so. Uh. Police Chief Stewart goes 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:57.000 back to talk to Bodha, and things get really suspicious to, 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:00.359 don't they, because he shows up and not boxed on 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:02.920 the door, and the doors just swings open onto an 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:07.679 empty apartment. And Stewart spends about fifteen minutes going boda, 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.560 Mr bona, hello, Mr Boda, and he finally takes a 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.920 couple of steps in and realizes boat is gone. That's right, 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:17.679 so he uh he goes by the garage where he 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.800 the guy said that his car was in the shop. Uh, 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.200 goes over there. The car still there, So that checked out, 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:25.959 and he told the owner, whose name was Simon Johnson, 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:28.920 he said, hey, if anyone comes to get this car, 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:32.680 just give us a call. And the guy says, mental note, 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:37.080 call colops if someone comes to get this car. Jeremy writer. 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.800 Um so on May five, this is what A couple 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:44.240 of weeks later, Um, a man comes to the door 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.400 and this is it. I believe this is. It says 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.679 nine o'clock. But that's at night, right, yeah, I I 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:53.000 couldn't tell it first, and then um it feels like night. Yeah. 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:56.400 It says also that the wife is is um illuminated 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:00.399 by a motorcycle headlights at night. Yeah, alright, so unless 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.479 it's very dark in the morning. Right, So at nine 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:08.280 o'clock at night, this guy shows up to the owners 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:12.800 of the garages door, knocks on the door. His young 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.600 wife answers. The guy says that he's Mike Boda, I'm 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.960 here to pick up my car that ovaland over there, 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.639 And the owner of the garage comes and tells his wife, 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:25.679 and he says, go call the police. You know, we 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:28.200 don't have a phone. Go next door, called the cops. 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:30.479 She leaves out the back door and is caught, Like 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:34.480 you said, there's this motorcycle sitting outside. She also sees 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:38.080 with a sidecar, also sees a couple of guys that 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:41.639 she said, we're speaking Italian kind of hanging around. So 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:43.399 it's all sort of adding up at this point to 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:48.680 uh something fishy. Yeah, So, um, I guess the fact 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:53.840 that um that Simon uh Johnson, the shop owner or 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:58.560 the mechanic was stalling, made boat a little uneasy, so 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:02.359 he took off without the car. Right. Yeah, he jumped 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:05.879 in the sidecar and was out of there. Okay, here's 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:09.000 where things get super critical. For a pair of guys 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:12.880 named Sacho and van Zetti. There were two other those 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:15.600 other those two other guys that Ruth Johnson Simon Johnson, 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:20.480 the mechanics wife said she saw um hanging out waiting 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:23.920 for Mike Boda to get his car. They split two. 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.760 Now they're suddenly like on foot. There's no motorcycle or 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:28.920 car for them, so they have to leave on foot. 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.840 So they walk over toward the direction of the Bridgewater 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:35.720 rail line, and she says that she saw them get 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.000 on the train or at least go toward the train 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:40.879 station or no, the rail car. So I think it 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:42.720 might have been like a street car kind of thing. 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:49.080 So somehow Chief Stewart gets word of this. I think 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:51.760 he shows up. He gets word of this, and he 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:55.240 calls a the um the police chief in the next 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.560 town over in Brockton, and says, hey, there's gonna be 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:01.359 a pair of Italian guy is on the street car. 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:03.960 When the when the when the street car stops in 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:06.520 your the rail car stops in your town, get them. 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:10.800 They are wanted for questioning in a murder robbery. And 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:13.600 so the Brockton police board the train when it arrives 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:16.680 in Brockton, and there are two Italian men sitting there. 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:21.119 And the two men's names were Nicolas Sako and Bartolomeo Venzetti, 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:24.280 and they just happened to be Italian, and they just 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:26.760 happen to be anarchists, and they both happened to be 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:29.680 strapped when the cops came on the rail car and 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:33.480 started asking them questions. Yeah, Sacho had a thirty two 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:38.400 cult UH and Van City had a thirty eight Harrington 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:46.240 and Richardson, which very uniquely had five UH chambers instead 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:50.639 of six. Seems unique. Yeah, yeah, I don't even know 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:52.200 how that works. I would have to see this kind 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:55.199 of revolver because six is a nice even number for 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:57.800 a round thing. I don't I don't get it. But 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:00.879 no one ever says, like, don't point that five shooter 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:05.800 at me. It's always six shooter, you know. Yeah, although 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:08.239 maybe maybe a five shooters, whether it's talking about when 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:10.720 they call it a pea shooter, No, let's know what 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:13.320 they mean. But it was the nies and there were 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:16.080 all kinds of weird guns back then. Right. Okay, so 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:21.640 these these two Italian immigrants who were anarchists and who 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:26.000 were carrying guns, had one other big problem. They were 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:31.040 giving some pretty weak and ever evolving stories. Uh, an 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:33.720 answer to the questions that the cops were asking them. 0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:36.920 They get hauled into the police station I believe in Bridgewater, 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:39.879 um or Braintree. Do you know which one it was? 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:42.000 I think it was. I think it was brain Tree. 0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:44.960 Actually they got taken a Braintree because it was Stewart 0:23:45.000 --> 0:23:47.440 who was investigating them. So they get taken a brain 0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:51.480 Tree and police Chief Stewart questions them. But then so 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:55.600 too does the UM. The chief prosecutor for the area, 0:23:55.880 --> 0:24:00.000 a guy named Frederick Katzman, who would play an enormous 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:02.879 role in this case as well. Yeah, so he was 0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:05.120 the d A and he the I think the key 0:24:05.119 --> 0:24:08.520 fact that really sold him was he found out that 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:10.840 on April fifteenth, on the day of these murders, Socca 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:14.360 was not at work at the three K shoe factory. 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:19.280 And uh, he said, you know what, that's enough for me. 0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:22.760 We have no real evidence or anything else, but you 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:28.080