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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know from how Stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,

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Speaker 1: and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's guest producer

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Speaker 1: Josh over there. So you put the three of us

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Speaker 1: together there and we're gonna get a little true crime

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Speaker 1: history on you with the trial of Saco and ben Zi. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: these guys, I mean a little backstory on I guess

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Speaker 1: the time we're talking about the nineties in the United States.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about, uh, two gentlemen that we're both anarchists

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Speaker 1: that were both Italian immigrants and both supposedly, um, followers

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Speaker 1: of this really notable anarchists named Luigi Galiani, who Uh

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Speaker 1: this guy was um sort of an anarchist leader. He

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Speaker 1: put out an anarchist rag he was um called for violence. Um.

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Speaker 1: He has a history of authorizing like bombing's assassination attempts. Um,

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Speaker 1: like really tough stuff. And so this is who um

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Speaker 1: supposedly Saco and Vinzetti were, you know, I guess by

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Speaker 1: association advocating, advocating, sure, advocating for this type of violence

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Speaker 1: themselves as immigrant anarchists. Do you remember in our anarchism episode.

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Speaker 1: Like during this period, in like a ten year period,

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Speaker 1: anarchists assassinated like five or six major heads of state

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Speaker 1: around the world, including McKinley in the United States. It

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Speaker 1: was a big deal. It was a big deal. And um,

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Speaker 1: I mean there was also a struggle going on for

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Speaker 1: the soul of America. Where we're gonna be socialists, where

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be capitalists? Should we just go with anarchism? Um,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of a lot of debate over

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Speaker 1: you know, which which economy we should go with, or

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Speaker 1: what what politics we should go with. And there was

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Speaker 1: something of a red scare because communism was on the

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Speaker 1: table too. There was a red scare at the time too.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't like the kind of time you would

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Speaker 1: walk around like, yeah, I'm an anarchist, get on board,

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Speaker 1: you know. But and at the same time, if you

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Speaker 1: weren't an anarchist, you're probably scared of our anarchists because

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Speaker 1: they would bomb stuff and they were well known for

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Speaker 1: it too. Yeah, So I mean this is not just

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Speaker 1: the United States, like all over the world. Um, there

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Speaker 1: were political radicals that was violence from anarchy and and

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Speaker 1: riots and like you said, people trying to take down

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Speaker 1: like politicians or judges that were deporting, at least the

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Speaker 1: United States deporting immigrant anarchists back to their home countries

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Speaker 1: like as quickly as they could root them out, basically, right,

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Speaker 1: So this is sort of the stage in the early

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Speaker 1: night teen twenties. UM, and I guess we should hop

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Speaker 1: in the way back machine. Oh yes, and head on

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Speaker 1: over to Boston Town. Okay, that's Boston by the way. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: I know, it doesn't matter if I know. Just make

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Speaker 1: sure the way back machiners, the way back machine those

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Speaker 1: it can read my silly accents. So so here we are.

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Speaker 1: It's ninety around Boston. Actually we're not in Boston proper.

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Speaker 1: We're about ten ten miles south in the little town

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Speaker 1: of Braintree, which is these days would be Boston proper.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, you know, yes, it's like the metro

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Speaker 1: Boston area. UM and Braintree was known as a shoe

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Speaker 1: manufacturing center had more than one shoe company, which meant

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Speaker 1: it was a shoe manufacturing center and UM on this

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Speaker 1: particular day in April of I think it was April.

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Speaker 1: Right in Braintree, there was a named Shelley Neil who

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Speaker 1: was an agent for the American Express Company. And the

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Speaker 1: function I got of Shelly Neil was that he would

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Speaker 1: he was kind of like a a Brinx armed guard

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Speaker 1: basically for money, and not just some money, like a

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Speaker 1: lot of money. On this day, from the nine eighteen

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Speaker 1: AM train from Boston, Shelley Neil went to the Braintree, uh,

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Speaker 1: the brain Tree train depot and picked up thirty thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars thirty grand in cash, which is about four d

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Speaker 1: and twenty seven thousand dollars in two thousand eighteen money.

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Speaker 1: Did this every week, right. Um, he picked it up

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Speaker 1: and he took it back to his office, and um

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Speaker 1: he opened up a metal box and inside had to

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Speaker 1: two canvas bags, and each was the payroll for um

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Speaker 1: one of the two shoe companies that he picked up

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Speaker 1: money for, one of which was called Slater in Morrell.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure what the other one was. Maybe it

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Speaker 1: was three K. Definitely Slater in Morrell was one of them.

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Speaker 1: The other was New Balance. Okay, so Slater in Morrill

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Speaker 1: and New Balance we're the ones whose payroll he had

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Speaker 1: on him that day. Yeah, And it's it's so amazing

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Speaker 1: how that stuff used to work back then, Like how

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Speaker 1: payroll was just so low fi. It would literally be

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Speaker 1: a huge amount of cash delivered in a box that

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Speaker 1: he would take to an office and someone would sit

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Speaker 1: there and stuff cash into envelopes to then go to

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Speaker 1: like a factory to pay off employees, not payoff, but

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Speaker 1: to pay to pay them there legit check from working.

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Speaker 1: You didn't see nothing this week. This is for all

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Speaker 1: the shoe leather, alright. So that's how it worked back then,

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Speaker 1: And so this is what he was doing. It's just

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Speaker 1: like any other Thursday. UM. However, on this day, as

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Speaker 1: he went in, he noticed a car out front that

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Speaker 1: he had not seen before, this big car that had

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Speaker 1: like these little curtains on the inside windows that were

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Speaker 1: pulled shut. And other people in Braintree UM later on

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Speaker 1: would report seeing that car kind of tooling around and

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Speaker 1: they said, it looks like it's got like four or

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Speaker 1: five men inside that look Italian and they're just sort

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Speaker 1: of driving around Braintree, which I guess to raise some suspicions. Sure,

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Speaker 1: because again, if you were Italian, UM, you may have

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Speaker 1: been associated with anarchists who were associated with bomb throwing.

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Speaker 1: So four or five of them kind of aimlessly driving

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Speaker 1: around the town of Braintree. This little tiny town. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure arouse some suspicions and definitely did because there were

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who later on said that they

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Speaker 1: saw this car driving around between nine am and twelve pm.

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Speaker 1: That's right, so about three that afternoon. Um, here's what

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Speaker 1: happened next for payroll. Uh, these people had to get

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Speaker 1: these envelopes. So what's known as a paymaster and this

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Speaker 1: is also sort of part of the arm guard thing,

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Speaker 1: um because the paymaster a has a gun and then

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Speaker 1: has a guard with a gun. This guy's name was

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Speaker 1: Freddie Parmenter and the guard was Alessandro Barra Delli. And

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Speaker 1: so they stopped by, they pick up all these envelopes.

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Speaker 1: They're going down to the factory. They're gonna pay everybody,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, bam bam bam bam, gunfire

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Speaker 1: and mayhem ensues. I didn't realize there's gonna be special

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Speaker 1: effects in this episode. Hey, well you know you did. Man,

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Speaker 1: it has been brought it. Um. So they're these guys

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Speaker 1: are on Pearl Street and when these shots suddenly just

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Speaker 1: ring out, and um, the first guy's hit, Barret ellis

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Speaker 1: hit uh and he goes down. I believe it was

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Speaker 1: Barre Deli who was hit first. Um, Oh, no, he

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Speaker 1: wasn't hit. It was Parlimenter who was hit. Barret Deli

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Speaker 1: is on the ground, um, and he has lost his

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Speaker 1: gun and he's being approached by a man with a

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Speaker 1: gun on him and uh Baradeli apparently has begged for

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Speaker 1: his life to no avail. The man shoots him in

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Speaker 1: the chest at least once and the bullet um punctures

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Speaker 1: his lungs uh, one of his major arteries, to his

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Speaker 1: heart and then lodge its lodges itself and its hip

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Speaker 1: to be fished out later on by a corner and

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Speaker 1: used in the case against Sacco and Vanzettie. Uh. The

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Speaker 1: other guy, Parlman or the paymaster. Uh. He gets hit

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Speaker 1: a few times, staggers across the street and um and collapses.

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Speaker 1: And this car a blue touring car, um, which is

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Speaker 1: you know, a big sedan that you would think of

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Speaker 1: today like a touring We'll call it a Lincoln town car,

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Speaker 1: even though it's not at all what it was. That

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Speaker 1: blue car that had been seen kind of driving driving around, right,

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Speaker 1: that's another way to put it. It was abut yeah,

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Speaker 1: but the same one that had been seen driving slowly

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Speaker 1: around Braintree all morning. Suddenly pulls up and the guys

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Speaker 1: who had shot these these two men and taken the

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Speaker 1: money about fifteen thousand dollars um hopped in and that

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Speaker 1: drove off and everyone lost sight of it. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: very importantly, the man who shot Baradelli had a hat

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Speaker 1: a felt cap on, right, So just remember that little

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Speaker 1: fact um. There were eyewitnesses all over the place. It's

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Speaker 1: not like no one saw this happen. Like dozens of

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Speaker 1: people saw this. Yeah, it was a daring daylight robbery

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Speaker 1: at three o'clock in the afternoon. Daring do right man

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Speaker 1: named Jimmy Bostock was one of the witnesses. Apparently Barredelli

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Speaker 1: like died in his arms, and like all people in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, didn't know any better. He immediately started

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Speaker 1: messing with the crime scene, started picking up gun shells.

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Speaker 1: Another guy came by and picked up the hat, and

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Speaker 1: you know, they just didn't know any better at the time,

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Speaker 1: I guess, right, So um, they the crime scene has

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Speaker 1: been totally messed up. But the cops show up because

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Speaker 1: again this is a big deal. This is a small

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Speaker 1: town and something close to two hundred and twenty thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars has just been stolen and two men murdered for

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Speaker 1: it in this little tiny town. So it's a big deal.

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Speaker 1: And the cops showed up, and probably the first thing

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Speaker 1: they said was anarchists. Maybe, I'll bet that's kind of

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Speaker 1: what they would say. I think at the time. Should

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Speaker 1: we take a break? Geez? Okay already, yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: so that. I mean this falls into acts and that's

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Speaker 1: definitely act one. Okay, alright, So dead men in the street,

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Speaker 1: the cops are on the scene, and scene and shock

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Speaker 1: is the ant scene or end scene, Chuck, We've talked

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Speaker 1: about this a lot and scene end scene Nope, because

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Speaker 1: it makes sense, you know, you do in the scene, right. So. Um, So,

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Speaker 1: the the cops have shown up, they're investigating the place. Um,

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Speaker 1: they're not really finding anything aside from what the witnesses

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Speaker 1: have already kind of gathered up and now holding out

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Speaker 1: to them in their outstretched palms, like here's your evidence, copper, Um.

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Speaker 1: But the uh, the cars searched for all over and

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Speaker 1: it's not found. It just totally disappears for a couple

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Speaker 1: of days. Um, And the the turns up a couple

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Speaker 1: of days later in the woods. I believe south of Braintree,

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Speaker 1: in a place called Bridgewater, which is a little even

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Speaker 1: further south from Boston. I think it's another like ten

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Speaker 1: or so miles down south from um from Braintree, right.

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Speaker 1: I think Bridgewater only had seven dunkin Donuts, so it

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Speaker 1: was a small town, right. And so remember when I

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Speaker 1: said the cops were probably like anarchists. I knew it. Um,

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Speaker 1: there was another daylight robbery of payroll, and I found

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Speaker 1: somewhere that it said it was successful. I found somewhere

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Speaker 1: else that it was unsuccessful. But both of them agreed

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Speaker 1: there had been no loss of life whatsoever. But it

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Speaker 1: was similar enough, and it had happened like two years

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Speaker 1: or a year before. Um, it was similar enough that

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Speaker 1: the cops immediately thought of the people they've been thinking

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Speaker 1: of for this, for this earlier crime. They thought, this

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Speaker 1: is clearly the work of the same people. Yeah. And um,

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Speaker 1: when they found this car in the woods, very importantly,

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Speaker 1: that the license plates had been ripped off, and there

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Speaker 1: were other tire tracks nearby, so it seemed pretty obvious that, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, they ditched this car get in another one.

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Speaker 1: The officer on the scene said, Maddie, I think this

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Speaker 1: is a car from the Braintree meta. All I can

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Speaker 1: think of is Jeremy Renner in in the town. Sure,

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Speaker 1: that's that's what I think of when I think Boston. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: everyone thinks of that. So, um, another thing's going on

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Speaker 1: in parallel, So we need to set this up. Um. Also,

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Speaker 1: on April fifte which is the day of those maritas, Um,

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Speaker 1: there was a guy named uh Ferruccio Cocchi, and he

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Speaker 1: lived in Bridgewater. He was an anarchist. He was being deported. Uh,

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Speaker 1: so he quits his job, you know, to be deported. Um,

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Speaker 1: does not show up to be deported. Uh. He calls

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Speaker 1: the Immigration service after that on the six and said, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know my wife is a because I have to

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Speaker 1: tind to her. And they said about am I gonna

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Speaker 1: get in trouble for that? Now? No, you won't control

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Speaker 1: everybody loves your Italian XS. At least tell me you

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Speaker 1: can still do an Italian accent, right, I think? So

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Speaker 1: we're going to find out after this episode, um, because

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Speaker 1: I'm just doing the accent, not saying like they're all mobsters,

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Speaker 1: because like, you know, the Sopranos got in trouble for that,

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah did they did? They say all Italians were mobsters. No,

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Speaker 1: but I mean I remember they're just being hey about

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Speaker 1: from the Italian American community, Like, why is it every

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Speaker 1: time in movies were just mobsters? Oh I could see that,

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Speaker 1: you know, sure, I mean I could see them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but these aren't even mobs. No, they're anarchists. Right. So

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Speaker 1: he's being deported, he doesn't go. He calls them and says,

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Speaker 1: my wife is sick, and they said, fine, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: check out your story. Though they found that his wife

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Speaker 1: was not sick, and that all of a sudden, he's saying, okay,

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Speaker 1: it's fine. Actually I'm really ready to go, Like now,

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Speaker 1: come on, come on, can you get me out of

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Speaker 1: the entry quickly? And they're like, well, you should probably

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Speaker 1: like leave some money with your wife. He's like, no, no no, no,

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Speaker 1: she's good, So let's just go. Yeah, And so they're like,

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Speaker 1: all right, this is a little odd, so let's maybe

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Speaker 1: he's involved. Can I can I paint the scene a

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Speaker 1: little bit? Though? I want to go back over and

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Speaker 1: highlight two things that you've mentioned so far. One, this

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Speaker 1: was a time where to cover up a crime, all

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Speaker 1: you had to do was remove the license plates on

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Speaker 1: the car you ditched. That was it. You just confounded

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Speaker 1: the cops forever. That helped. And then secondly, if you

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Speaker 1: were to be deported, all you had to do is

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Speaker 1: not show up, but then call him the next day

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Speaker 1: and say your wife was sick and and Immigration and

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Speaker 1: Naturalization would say, sure, no problem. Well no were they

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Speaker 1: investigated immediately. Okay, but I'm just saying, like this is

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Speaker 1: things have changed to tas think is what I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to say. Hold on, let me let me see, Trush,

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Speaker 1: what are you trying to say. You're trying to say that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to say that. Yes, that's exactly what I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to say. It's weird because you looked on both

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Speaker 1: of your shoulders at the devil and the angel. Right,

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Speaker 1: they won't shut up, Chuck, so uh they some they summarize,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's all coming together. This guy's acting weird. Well,

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Speaker 1: he's he's also choked one of those people that they

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Speaker 1: liked for that that um robbery the the year before,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the reasons why they had their

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Speaker 1: intent up about this guy in the first place. Right,

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Speaker 1: So he's a suspect. The coops go to, uh specifically

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Speaker 1: um Michael Stewart, police chief, said, I'm gonna go back

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Speaker 1: to his house. I'm gonna see what else I can

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Speaker 1: find out from this guy. He shows up and there's

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Speaker 1: a dude there named Mike Boda, who says, yeah, sure,

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Speaker 1: you can look around. You can look in the house,

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Speaker 1: go back and look in the garage. Two car garage shed,

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Speaker 1: no problem. Uh, usually have my car there. It's an Overland,

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Speaker 1: but it's in the shop getting repaired. And Steward goes

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Speaker 1: out there and it's like, all right, so here's where

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Speaker 1: the Overland parks. But there's some really big tire tracks

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Speaker 1: next to the over and uh and the second stall

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Speaker 1: that looked like they would probably fit this large buick

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Speaker 1: that was so mysteriously kind of tooling around around the

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Speaker 1: time of this murder, right, and this cop Stewart goes,

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Speaker 1: mm hmm, I'm gonna make a mental note of that.

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Speaker 1: And that's what he did. He he asked about the uh,

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Speaker 1: the the other car. I don't know if you said,

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Speaker 1: bodhas said that his other car was at the garage

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Speaker 1: being repaired. So, um so Stewart, who's the police chief

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Speaker 1: of bridge Ward. I think I get the impression he

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Speaker 1: was kind of new there's another one who kind of

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Speaker 1: factors into this case tangentially later on Um who was

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Speaker 1: the former police chief. So I get the impression that

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Speaker 1: Michael Stewart was fairly new, but he's investigating this case.

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Speaker 1: He likes Koachi. He's now met Mike Boda, who is

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Speaker 1: suspicious of two Um. He goes back to talk to

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Speaker 1: bodas some more to this place where Kachi lived uh

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Speaker 1: as Boda's roommate, I guess, away from his wife and kids.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure why Koachi was running this place. We

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Speaker 1: go with coaching, now, yeah, I'm pretty sure that's it.

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Speaker 1: I took Italian in college, and I'm almost a hundred

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Speaker 1: percent sure it's Coachi. Do you remember from our Dyslexi

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Speaker 1: episode where Italian is extremely easy to learn because there's

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Speaker 1: just very few ways to to write things, to write

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Speaker 1: the phone names. One of the reasons it is easier

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Speaker 1: because it's kind of like Polish. It's in most most

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Speaker 1: cases it's actually easier than Polish. But it's pronounced just

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Speaker 1: like it's spelled, except for the C I is a sound.

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Speaker 1: So Kachi, Okay, all right, that was your Italian lesson.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that after all these years. The other lesson

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Speaker 1: not all Italians or Italian Americans or mobsters. That's your

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Speaker 1: other Italian lesson. Now okay, so, um, I've a bunch

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Speaker 1: of Italians Italian Americans and none of them were mobsters. Bam,

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Speaker 1: there you go. Um so. Uh. Police Chief Stewart goes

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Speaker 1: back to talk to Bodha, and things get really suspicious to,

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Speaker 1: don't they, because he shows up and not boxed on

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Speaker 1: the door, and the doors just swings open onto an

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Speaker 1: empty apartment. And Stewart spends about fifteen minutes going boda,

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Speaker 1: Mr bona, hello, Mr Boda, and he finally takes a

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Speaker 1: couple of steps in and realizes boat is gone. That's right,

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Speaker 1: so he uh he goes by the garage where he

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Speaker 1: the guy said that his car was in the shop. Uh,

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Speaker 1: goes over there. The car still there, So that checked out,

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Speaker 1: and he told the owner, whose name was Simon Johnson,

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Speaker 1: he said, hey, if anyone comes to get this car,

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Speaker 1: just give us a call. And the guy says, mental note,

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Speaker 1: call colops if someone comes to get this car. Jeremy writer.

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Speaker 1: Um so on May five, this is what A couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks later, Um, a man comes to the door

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Speaker 1: and this is it. I believe this is. It says

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Speaker 1: nine o'clock. But that's at night, right, yeah, I I

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Speaker 1: couldn't tell it first, and then um it feels like night. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It says also that the wife is is um illuminated

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Speaker 1: by a motorcycle headlights at night. Yeah, alright, so unless

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Speaker 1: it's very dark in the morning. Right, So at nine

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Speaker 1: o'clock at night, this guy shows up to the owners

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Speaker 1: of the garages door, knocks on the door. His young

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Speaker 1: wife answers. The guy says that he's Mike Boda, I'm

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Speaker 1: here to pick up my car that ovaland over there,

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Speaker 1: And the owner of the garage comes and tells his wife,

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Speaker 1: and he says, go call the police. You know, we

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Speaker 1: don't have a phone. Go next door, called the cops.

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Speaker 1: She leaves out the back door and is caught, Like

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Speaker 1: you said, there's this motorcycle sitting outside. She also sees

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Speaker 1: with a sidecar, also sees a couple of guys that

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Speaker 1: she said, we're speaking Italian kind of hanging around. So

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Speaker 1: it's all sort of adding up at this point to

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Speaker 1: uh something fishy. Yeah, So, um, I guess the fact

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Speaker 1: that um that Simon uh Johnson, the shop owner or

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Speaker 1: the mechanic was stalling, made boat a little uneasy, so

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Speaker 1: he took off without the car. Right. Yeah, he jumped

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Speaker 1: in the sidecar and was out of there. Okay, here's

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Speaker 1: where things get super critical. For a pair of guys

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Speaker 1: named Sacho and van Zetti. There were two other those

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Speaker 1: other those two other guys that Ruth Johnson Simon Johnson,

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Speaker 1: the mechanics wife said she saw um hanging out waiting

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Speaker 1: for Mike Boda to get his car. They split two.

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Speaker 1: Now they're suddenly like on foot. There's no motorcycle or

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Speaker 1: car for them, so they have to leave on foot.

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Speaker 1: So they walk over toward the direction of the Bridgewater

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Speaker 1: rail line, and she says that she saw them get

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Speaker 1: on the train or at least go toward the train

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Speaker 1: station or no, the rail car. So I think it

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Speaker 1: might have been like a street car kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: So somehow Chief Stewart gets word of this. I think

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Speaker 1: he shows up. He gets word of this, and he

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Speaker 1: calls a the um the police chief in the next

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Speaker 1: town over in Brockton, and says, hey, there's gonna be

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Speaker 1: a pair of Italian guy is on the street car.

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Speaker 1: When the when the when the street car stops in

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Speaker 1: your the rail car stops in your town, get them.

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Speaker 1: They are wanted for questioning in a murder robbery. And

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Speaker 1: so the Brockton police board the train when it arrives

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Speaker 1: in Brockton, and there are two Italian men sitting there.

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Speaker 1: And the two men's names were Nicolas Sako and Bartolomeo Venzetti,

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Speaker 1: and they just happened to be Italian, and they just

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Speaker 1: happen to be anarchists, and they both happened to be

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Speaker 1: strapped when the cops came on the rail car and

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Speaker 1: started asking them questions. Yeah, Sacho had a thirty two

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Speaker 1: cult UH and Van City had a thirty eight Harrington

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Speaker 1: and Richardson, which very uniquely had five UH chambers instead

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Speaker 1: of six. Seems unique. Yeah, yeah, I don't even know

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Speaker 1: how that works. I would have to see this kind

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Speaker 1: of revolver because six is a nice even number for

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Speaker 1: a round thing. I don't I don't get it. But

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Speaker 1: no one ever says, like, don't point that five shooter

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Speaker 1: at me. It's always six shooter, you know. Yeah, although

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe a five shooters, whether it's talking about when

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Speaker 1: they call it a pea shooter, No, let's know what

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Speaker 1: they mean. But it was the nies and there were

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Speaker 1: all kinds of weird guns back then. Right. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: these these two Italian immigrants who were anarchists and who

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Speaker 1: were carrying guns, had one other big problem. They were

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Speaker 1: giving some pretty weak and ever evolving stories. Uh, an

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Speaker 1: answer to the questions that the cops were asking them.

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Speaker 1: They get hauled into the police station I believe in Bridgewater,

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Speaker 1: um or Braintree. Do you know which one it was?

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Speaker 1: I think it was. I think it was brain Tree.

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Speaker 1: Actually they got taken a Braintree because it was Stewart

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Speaker 1: who was investigating them. So they get taken a brain

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Speaker 1: Tree and police Chief Stewart questions them. But then so

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Speaker 1: too does the UM. The chief prosecutor for the area,

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Speaker 1: a guy named Frederick Katzman, who would play an enormous

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Speaker 1: role in this case as well. Yeah, so he was

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Speaker 1: the d A and he the I think the key

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00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: fact that really sold him was he found out that

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Speaker 1: on April fifteenth, on the day of these murders, Socca

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Speaker 1: was not at work at the three K shoe factory.

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Speaker 1: And uh, he said, you know what, that's enough for me.

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Speaker 1: We have no real evidence or anything else, but you

401
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Speaker 1: are Italian. Uh, Italian American anarchists. You weren't at work

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Speaker 1: that day, so let's go ahead and haul you in here, right,

403
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: because yeah, we left off the fact that they found

404
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Speaker 1: like UM anarchists pamphlets on the on the men when

405
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Speaker 1: they when they took him off the train. So there

406
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: was a lot against them going against them at this point. Um,

407
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 1: just from the outside of this, but you kind of

408
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: touched on it. All of this is very very circumstantial. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So right away, the anarchists of UM of the area

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Speaker 1: come on board. Uh. They formed the Saco Vent City

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Speaker 1: Defense Committee, and one of their leaders, one of the

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Speaker 1: anarchist leaders in the area named Carlo Tresca, said all right,

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Speaker 1: let's hire this uh, this lawyer from California. This guy's

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Speaker 1: a radical. Uh, he's gonna lead our defense and more

415
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,239
Speaker 1: comes on board. Fred Morin's like, here's the way we're

416
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Speaker 1: gonna do this is let's like let's get everyone worked up,

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Speaker 1: like not only in this area, but all over the world.

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Speaker 1: Let's get radicals, and let's get anarchists, and let's get

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Speaker 1: union members. Let's paint these guys. It's just like hard working,

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Speaker 1: blue collar union dudes, and let's get people all over

421
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: the world paying attention to what's going on over here. Yes,

422
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 1: which is a very common tactics still in use today.

423
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: Just turn public sentiment against the government and the prosecutors

424
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: in their case and um, basically painted like Saco and Vinzetti,

425
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: We're just a couple of normal dudes who are being

426
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 1: railroaded for for political reasons and probably out of a

427
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: certain amount of xenophobia as well. Sure, so, uh well,

428
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: let's take a break. The trial opens in May with

429
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: Judge Webster there and uh we'll be back with what

430
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 1: happens next right after this and shock you chuck. Before

431
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: we get back into I want to give a shout

432
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: out to Doug Lender. Douglas Lender, who's a law professor

433
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,239
Speaker 1: and historian who wrote a paper that we used as

434
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: a source that was pretty pretty handy, pretty good stuff. Yeah,

435
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: law professors. I mean, there's a lot of good information

436
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: out here on this, but you get a law professor

437
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: on the on the typewriter and they're gonna condense it

438
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: into a nice, readable, workable document. That's right, That's what

439
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: they do. They're very good at that. Yes, So all right,

440
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: trials underway. Um, Like I said before, Judge Webster there

441
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: proceeds over this trial. Um, catsman, that's the d A

442
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: that's prosecuting. He has got a lot of circumstantial evidence,

443
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: he has eyewitnesses, but not really a lot of hard

444
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: evidence going on. Right, It's a little a tough case

445
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: for him to like solidly prove. Yeah, And that that

446
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: was another reason why um Fred Moore was able to

447
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: run around drumming up public sentiment, not just in the

448
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: United States or even just Boston or Massachusetts, but around

449
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: the world. Um. That that that Sacco and Vanzetti were

450
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: being railroaded is that the the evidence against them was

451
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: really really weak. Um. The eyewitness testimony was super um.

452
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: If you if you had the luxury like historians like

453
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: Douglas Linder have had to compare you know, um, the

454
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: original notes or the original statements made by eyewitnesses, um

455
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: against the types of statements they made in court. The

456
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: statements they made in court were much more certain, much

457
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: more sure. And this was after a year of reading

458
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: the newspaper and being exposed to pictures of Saccho and Vanzetti.

459
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 1: So when they see Sacho and Vanzetti in the court room,

460
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 1: they're like, yes, I saw that man holding that gun

461
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: and he was the one that pulled the trigger. The

462
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 1: thing is, there was not one witness, but there were

463
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: witnesses who placed both of them at the crime scene

464
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: or at least in the buick around town on that day.

465
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: But there was not one single witness who placed both

466
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: of them there. That's just the eye witnesses. They also had.

467
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: The other big piece of circumstantial evidence were the guns

468
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: that they were found with. UM, and they used ballistic

469
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: experts to come in and say, yes, this bullet came

470
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: from this gun, but again looking at it with history

471
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: behind the benefit of history. UM. This was at a

472
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: time when when ballistics comparison was just beginning to come around,

473
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: and the people that they employed as ballistics experts were

474
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: self taught amateurs who just basically had an interest in

475
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: this field. Were in no way, shape or form genuine

476
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: experts because you could make a case there was no

477
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: such thing as a genuine ballistics comparison expert at the time.

478
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: It was too new as far as forensic goes. Yeah.

479
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: So on the defense side, UM, immediately they say, those

480
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: guys weren't even in Braintree. UH. Socco was in Boston. UM,

481
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: Vansetti was in Plymouth. The both both sides. It's it's

482
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: interesting to look back on this trial because both the

483
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: prosecution and the defense were like being very hinky with

484
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: the truth themselves, um, influencing people on both sides to

485
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: testify kind of behind the scenes. Um. Fred Moore, the

486
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: defense attorney, trotted out a bunch of witnesses that say, no,

487
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: like Vanzetti was definitely in plan if he's a fishmonger,

488
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: bought fish from him. And then later on it was

489
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: found out that some of these people, well all of

490
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: them basically were friends of his. And then some of

491
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: the people came out even later and said, yeah, he

492
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: kind of told me to say this, But that happened

493
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: on the prosecution side too, Yes, supposedly, Um, later on

494
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: they would allege that the prosecutor Um Catsman, and the

495
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: chief or the lead ballistics or the star ballistics witness

496
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: had kind of coordinated the answer that the ballistics witness

497
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: would give at trial and that it would be much

498
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: more stronger and much um much more certain than he

499
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: the the actual conclusion he came to, uh prior to

500
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: the trial, based on his original ballistics tests. Yeah, so

501
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: there's there's hinkiness on both sides. Um. Catsman has his

502
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: hat and remember one of the gunmen definitely had on

503
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: a gray cap, so he has this gray cap. He said,

504
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: this is Sako's. He gets together with an expert behind

505
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: the scenes and says and again with this like like

506
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: you were saying, the sort of the beginnings of uh,

507
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: not ballistics in this case, but just um forensics, any

508
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: kind of forensics. Yeah. They he looked at the hairs

509
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: in the hat, got a hair from Soco and Socco

510
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: was like, oh that hurt. And he compared him and

511
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: he said, yeah, these hairs are identical. I'm telling you,

512
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: they're the same hairs. But Catsman was like, you know what,

513
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: I don't want to go to court uh and present

514
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: this because this stuff is all new. They're gonna paint

515
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: you as unreliable because no one knows anything about hair

516
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: comparison yet. So instead of doing that, he goes to

517
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: the boss of the shoe factory, George Kelly, you know,

518
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: was like, have you seen this hat before? And Kelly said, yes,

519
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: that's Saco's hat. I've seen him wear that hat and

520
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: the hole in it is from the nail that he

521
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: hangs it on every day, When in fact, that was

522
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: definitely not the case, no that earlier. The previous chief

523
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: later testified that he had actually accidentally punched the hole

524
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: in the hat while he was examining it for any

525
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: kind of identifying marks. He also testified that the hat

526
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: had a very um questionable providence, that it hadn't come

527
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,719
Speaker 1: into police custody for thirty hours after the crime, so

528
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: he couldn't say he as far as he knew, it

529
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: was not found at the crime scene, that it hadn't

530
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: been secured by the police, He didn't know exactly where

531
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: it came from. And then finally I read elsewhere in

532
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: a final twist and tell stop me if this sounds familiar.

533
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: But they asked Sacho to put the hat on in

534
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: court and it was too small for his head. It

535
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: didn't fit. They did not acquit though, ruined it. Oh,

536
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, sorry everybody. It's funny. There's probably a lot

537
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: of people out there who have no idea how this

538
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: is going to turn out, because if you search on

539
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: Google just Sacho and Vanzetti. One of the suggested questions

540
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: is what is Sacho and Vanzetti? Not who what? It's

541
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: a nice appertif right, So, um, I don't know if

542
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: we mentioned but like Sacho, had definitely much more evidence

543
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: against him, even if it was circumstantial, than Benzetti did

544
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: for sure, So Vanzetti is has the thinnest case against him,

545
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: but he like he lied to the cops. Um he

546
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: had that gun, remember, and on the stand he said, yeah,

547
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: actually I got that gun just a few days ago.

548
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: I bought it for four or five bucks. And they're like, well,

549
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: you told us that you bought it four or five

550
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: years ago for eighteen dollars. You said there were six

551
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: chambers in it and only had five, And what's going

552
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: on here? You're lying, Jimmy Vanzetti. The whole thing with

553
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: the gun, I don't know if we've said or not yet.

554
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: The reason why the gun was so suspicious and was

555
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: basically like the central piece of evidence used against um

556
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: van Zetti is that it was supposedly the exact same

557
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: kind of gun that Alessandro Barradelli had on and when

558
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: he was killed. So the the whole, the whole idea

559
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: was that um Vanzetti had been at the at least

560
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 1: at the crime scene, if not one of the killers,

561
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: who had taken Barradelli's gun after he had killed him,

562
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: and made off with it, which would explain why he

563
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: wasn't very familiar with the gun and how many chambers

564
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,240
Speaker 1: it had and didn't have a very solid story about

565
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: where he'd gotten in and how long he'd owned it too.

566
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: That was the implication of the whole thing, and that

567
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,720
Speaker 1: was basically the That was it. That was the crux

568
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: of the prosecution's case against Vanzetti. Vanzetti's big problem was

569
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 1: he was sitting next to Saco when Soacco got taken

570
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: off the train, and they had a lot more on

571
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: Socco and they were tried together rather than separately. Yeah,

572
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: and Socco. That ballistics evidence made a big, big difference

573
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: in the trial because they found out for sure that

574
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: that bullet that killed uh Baradelli was definitely fired from

575
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: a Colt automatic. Um, and your cult automatic is what

576
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: they alleged. And uh, well, we'll hold on to that

577
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: last bit until later. But um about what was found

578
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: out later about that. But um, I think even some

579
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: of the jurors said that that was really some of

580
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: the most compelling evidence against Sacho for us in deciding

581
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: this case. Yeah, and again, like they're listening to forensic

582
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: evidence from a field that's still in the very and

583
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 1: it's cradle from testimony given by people who are not experts.

584
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: But that was, like you said, the jurors said, this

585
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 1: was that was it for me. That was what convinced

586
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: me was the ballistics evidence. Basically. So they go to

587
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: uh jury and they go to deliberations and just five

588
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: a house five and a half hours later, the jury

589
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: said guilty has charged about six weeks after the trial started,

590
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: I believe. Yeah, So it was a big deal. You know,

591
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: like uh, Sacho is crying out innocent and Italian in

592
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: the court. Um, they were like protests all over the world,

593
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 1: like South America, France, uh, Lisbon. It's just crazy how

594
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: much this at the time in the nineteen twenties became

595
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: an international thing and uh basically they were due for

596
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: the electric chair, so people all over the world were protesting.

597
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: There were bombings. Um, it was nuts. Yeah, this is

598
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a time when labor was unionized,

599
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: so you could arouse the sympathy of a lot of

600
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: people at once by going to the union hall and

601
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 1: saying like, hey, your your brothers in arms over there

602
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: in America are being railroaded into a murder rap. They're

603
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 1: gonna be electrocuting the electric chair for something they didn't

604
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: commit simply because of their political beliefs. How messed up

605
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: is that? And they you could arouse some some people

606
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: pretty quickly back then by saying that as opposed to today, Yeah,

607
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: for sure, um more immediately starts the defense attorney immediately

608
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: starts filing motions, trying to get like new trials. That was,

609
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 1: he had an assistant named Eugene Lions, who later would

610
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,919
Speaker 1: come out and say, man, like this guy basically would

611
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: do anything. Um, he was framing evidence, he was telling

612
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: witnesses what to say, like once he had up in

613
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: his mind that and keep in mind, this was like

614
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: a radical lawyer from California. He said, once he had

615
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: in mind that these guys were innocent, he was like

616
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: he he basically would do anything to try and get

617
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 1: them off. Yeah, he's a born perjury. He'd intimidate witnesses,

618
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: he do whatever if he thought that somebody was being

619
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: innocently prosecuted. Fred Moore would stop at nothing too to yeah,

620
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: to get them off. And this article I think kind

621
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,479
Speaker 1: of paints an incomplete picture of Eugene Lions and Fred

622
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 1: Moore's relationship. Like Eugene my lions. Was also very much

623
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: an admirer of Fred Moore to um, like, he considered

624
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: Fred Moore to have the heart of an artist, but

625
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: he was that he had dedicated his life to getting

626
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 1: people who were being steamrolled by the system or unfairly

627
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: treated by the courts out from under these these charges.

628
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: He was he was an early civil liberty civil liberties lawyer,

629
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: basically was what he was. Yes, so none of these

630
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 1: motions work. He files a bunch of them. Um, we're

631
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: not going to detail them all, but none of them, Uh,

632
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: none of them worked. They were basically all turned down.

633
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: Fair was still the presiding judge. He was turning down

634
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: all these things. Then they went to like federal court,

635
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 1: they were turning down motions. Eventually they went to the

636
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court was like, why are

637
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: you asking us about this? Like we this is a

638
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,439
Speaker 1: state case, Like we don't even do this kind of thing. Yeah.

639
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,280
Speaker 1: The the court at the time was very much against

640
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 1: um or the majority I should say, it was against

641
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: applying the con federal Constitution to state issues, so they

642
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: wouldn't get involved. But um, I mean it did go

643
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: all the way to at least petitioning the Supreme Court,

644
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: they wouldn't hear it, and they wouldn't stay the execution either. UM.

645
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: But he, as much as a lawyer can exhaust petitions

646
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: and appeals for clemency UM and and the stay of execution.

647
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: Fred Moore did. And then later on another defense lawyer

648
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: named William Thompson, who took over for Fred Moore after

649
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: Sacho fired Fred Moore, UM did the same thing. Like

650
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: up to the eve the eve of the execution, they

651
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: were relentless and filing appeals with anything, anything they could

652
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: get their hands on. UM. They filed an entire motion

653
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: for a new trial based strictly on Judge Thayer's perceived

654
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: uh prejudice against um anarchists. Apparently he did not like anarchists,

655
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: and he treated Psacho and Vanzetti as such. Um throughout

656
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: the trial. UM. And as you're if you're just watching

657
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: watching this from the outside, if you're reading about this

658
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 1: in the press, and you're already on Saco and Venzetti's side, Judge,

659
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 1: they are turning down motion after motion after motion after motion. UM.

660
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 1: Looks really bad. It looks very much like this judge

661
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: is bent on railroading these two immigrant anarchists into an

662
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: an early and unjust death by electric chair. So the um,

663
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 1: the public sympathies and were aroused even further for Sacco

664
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: and Van City, and that would last for decades after

665
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: this trial up century almost now. Yeah, So Socco's in

666
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: jail and another weird thing happens while he's in jail

667
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: at uh in deadham d E d H A M.

668
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: There was another prisoner there who passed a note on

669
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: and said basically, I'm confessing to this crime. My name

670
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: is uh Celestino Madeiros And they were like, all right, well,

671
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: let's let's talk to this guy. He's confessing to this

672
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: crime and saying that Socco and Vincetti or innocent. Uh.

673
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: He said, I was there. I was UM with four

674
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: other guys, so that kind of checks out. As far

675
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: the five Italians, he said, we met in Providence at

676
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,839
Speaker 1: a bar and we just come came up with this plan.

677
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: He said. There was a guy named Mike, a gun

678
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: named Bill. I don't know the other guys. I was scared.

679
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: We switched cars in the woods. Like all this stuff

680
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: was sort of making sense, um, but it really didn't.

681
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: Like in the end, there were too many other things

682
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: that were wrong. Uh. Like he said that they didn't

683
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: get there until afternoon, and everyone was like, no, that

684
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 1: car was there like maybe between nine am and noon. Um.

685
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 1: He also said that the payroll money was in a

686
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: bag when it was in a metal box, and so

687
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 1: there were enough inconsistencies basically where uh he wasn't really

688
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: a major suspect like they considered it. Thompson tried to

689
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: use it as the basis for a new trial, but

690
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: none of this worked because Air was still kind of

691
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 1: calling the shots before they ran it up the flag bowl. Yeah,

692
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: but again, news made made its way out into the

693
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 1: international press that someone had confessed, and not only confessed,

694
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: said that Sacho and Vanzetti weren't there. And this this

695
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: judge who headed out for Sacho and Vanzetti refused to

696
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: even hear this, this motion to uh to have a

697
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: new trial. So it looked it looked bad as well too.

698
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 1: It did so it looked bad enough that the governor

699
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: at the time, Alvin Fuller, said, you know what, we

700
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: have to do something here. There's just too much public

701
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: pressure going on from around the world. He said, So

702
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 1: here's what we'll do. We'll get a three person advisory committee.

703
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: They're gonna investigate this. He said, Hey, you Lawrence Lowell,

704
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: you're the president of Havid. You had this thing up. Uh.

705
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 1: And then what was known as the Lowell Commission UM

706
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: finally issued a report which said basically, uh, beyond a

707
00:42:54,760 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: reasonable doubt, Sacho is guilty. Uh. And Vanzetti said on

708
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: the whole, it's our opinion that he's also guilty beyond

709
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. And everyone was like, well, why did you

710
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,879
Speaker 1: say all those other words then? And they're like, what

711
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 1: other words? Yeah? Really kind of a strange final report.

712
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: What's funny is in the Boston area if they're like,

713
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: we need somebody smart, get me the president of Harvard.

714
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: Well yeah, And in the end he's like, you are

715
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: definitely guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and so are you

716
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: more or less in our opinion? Right? No, I know.

717
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: It was weird and it remains weird. But apparently years later,

718
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: when Lowell was asked about that, he was saying like, no,

719
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: that wasn't any indication that we thought vanz he had

720
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: any kind of um, any kind of innocence to him,

721
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,760
Speaker 1: or that he wasn't guilty. UM. I'm not sure exactly

722
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 1: how he explained it, but he basically said, no, that

723
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: wasn't that's not what that was interesting. I don't know

724
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: what he thought it was. That was a weird way

725
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,959
Speaker 1: to put it, but that was I think the other

726
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: thing that kind of arouses people's in t in that

727
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: or suspicion maybe even is that that's what a lot

728
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: of people think that Sacco was definitely guilty. Yeah. I

729
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: shouldn't say a lot, but some people that Sacco is

730
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: definitely guilty. And if anyone was innocent, it was Vanzetti.

731
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: So the idea that this Lowell commission came up with

732
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: this back in the twenties even um is significant. But yeah,

733
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: Lowell was like, no, that's not what we meant playing that.

734
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: So none of these stays of execution go through. So

735
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: there reunited. They were split up in jail for many,

736
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: many years, um six years, and then they were finally

737
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: reunited at Charlestown State Prison for execution in April, and uh,

738
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: they had, like you, you wouldn't believe how many cops

739
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: they have in this town, uh, to cover this thing

740
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,720
Speaker 1: because it was sort of one of the first crimes

741
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 1: of the century, I think, and people were mad all

742
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: over the country and all over the world. Like we've

743
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: been talking about. They didn't know if they're going to

744
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: be more bombings. People were gonna like literally storm the

745
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: prison and trying overtake them and free them. So they

746
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: had tons and tons of cops everywhere. Uh, Socco is

747
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: first to go, and as they are strapping him in,

748
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: he's crying out in Italian along with anarchy, and then

749
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 1: in English very quietly says farewell my wife and child

750
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: and all my friends, and uh, right when they finally

751
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 1: threw the switch, he screamed out mama. And I don't

752
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: think like that. No, No, I'm not making light of it.

753
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 1: I don't think he was like, whoa mama. No, I

754
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: don't think so either. I think he was calling for

755
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: his mother. Yes, just pretty sad but also kind of sweet. Um.

756
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 1: And then Vanzetti comes in and he's like, oh, it's

757
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: my turn, all right, Well, okay, I want to make

758
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 1: sure everybody knows that I am innocent. Um. So I

759
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: think it's significant that Sacco was the one that shouted

760
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: in the courtroom that he was innocent, but didn't during

761
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,720
Speaker 1: his execution, and Vanzetti didn't say anything in the courtroom,

762
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 1: but his execution he's like, I'm innocent, and not only

763
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: that he really turned the screwdriver. He said, I want

764
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: to make it known that I forgive all of you

765
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: who are about to do this to me. And he

766
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: started crying. Well, the wardens started crying when he gave

767
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: the switch, gave the nod to turn to throw the

768
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: switch on the electric chair and kill Vanzetti. Tears flowing everywhere.

769
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 1: High drama. Yes, surely it has been. But I'll bet

770
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 1: it wasn't like the seventies or something. We just aren't

771
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: aware of it. Like Warren Batty played Sacho and ven

772
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: Zetti in some weird casting and somehow Jeremy Renner co

773
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 1: he right exactly. Um, but but so Sacho and ven

774
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: Zetti are dead. Like they're dead. The state took their lives.

775
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: They executed them. These conceivably innocent men who were railroaded

776
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 1: to the electric chair uncircumstantial evidence and the testimony of

777
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: some ballistic experts were not experts by anyone's measure. Um,

778
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: these men are now dead, and the world reacts um predictably.

779
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:12,439
Speaker 1: There were riots. Six people died in a riot in Germany. Um.

780
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: The American embassy in Paris had already been bombed, so

781
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 1: they Uh. They brought tanks out on the night of

782
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: the execution, UH and surrounded it this time, and there

783
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 1: were no bombings. Um. There were riots in Geneva, Switzerland.

784
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: This may have been the only time anyone ever rioted

785
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: in Geneva, Switzerland. Um. They were like five thousand pro

786
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: protesters who destroyed everything that was even passingly American. UM.

787
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: And Saco and Vinzetti went into the history books as

788
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: a couple of innocent men who were executed wrongfully by

789
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: the state because of their political beliefs. They were political

790
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: prisoners who were executed for their beliefs. Basically is how

791
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: most people have come to see Sacho and Vanzetti. Yeah,

792
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 1: but many years later, a couple of a few notable

793
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: things happened. UM. In nineteen forty one that gentleman I

794
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, the Carlo Carlo Trusca, the anarchist leader a

795
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: couple of years wore he died in the nineteen forties,

796
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: basically said, you know what, Osaka was guilty, he was

797
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: a trigger man, but van Setti was not guilty. UM.

798
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: Other people had heard the same thing from Trusca, And

799
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 1: then in nineteen sixty one they had um actual ballistics

800
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: tests done and uh it was concluded that, uh, that

801
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: was in fact a bullet from Sacho's gun. But people

802
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: still were saying, no, you know what, I think the

803
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: bullet was planted, So we render that inconclusive. But I

804
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: think Doug Linder does a pretty good job of of

805
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,479
Speaker 1: taking the planted bullet theory fatal bullet or bullet number

806
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: three is what it's called in the trial um and

807
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: and basically saying no, this is why that doesn't really

808
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: hold up. And probably the biggest one is UM, when

809
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 1: the ballistics witnesses gave their testimony, UM, both of the

810
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: prosecution star ballistic witnesses said yes, I would conclude probably

811
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 1: that it came out of this gun, or yes, it's

812
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: probable or possible or something like that. They couched their

813
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 1: expert opinions when they gave their testimony. And if they

814
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: were part of a conspiracy to frame Sacho in the

815
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: planting of this bullet, they would have given much more

816
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: forceful testimony, which in and of itself as a circumstantial

817
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: evidence against this planted bullet theory. But it draws so

818
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: closely uncommon sense that I think it makes sense to me.

819
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: It undermines the idea that the bullet was planted. Yeah.

820
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 1: There was another gentleman named Giovanni Gambara who said, Um,

821
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 1: you know what my dad um before he died in

822
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: nine two, he told me he was on this team

823
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: of anarchists that met after their arrest to get their

824
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: defense mounted. And he told me and everyone said basically

825
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: that Socco was guilty and Venzetti was innocent. And then weirdly, uh,

826
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: in two thousand five, Upton Sinclair, the very famous author,

827
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: said that he was researching a book and he was

828
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 1: going to write it. Uh, he was writing a book

829
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 1: about this whole thing, and he met with Thread Moore,

830
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 1: that the radical defense attorney that mounted the defense for

831
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: basically most of the case. And he said he met

832
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: with him in a hotel room. Was like, dude, give

833
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: me the real story. And he said that Moore told him, Yeah,

834
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 1: Sacco was guilty and um Vansetti was innocent, and I

835
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 1: basically came up with this whole defense on my own,

836
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: like made all this stuff up. Yeah. Yeah. Years later

837
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: it came out that um, the seven eyewitnesses for the

838
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 1: defense who said that they saw Um Saco eating lunch

839
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 1: in Boston at the time of the um Robbery and

840
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: Braintree had all been set up by the defense, or

841
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 1: at least by an anarchist group had who had asked

842
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,919
Speaker 1: them to go perjury themselves. And um, yeah, I think

843
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 1: that kind of jibes with the Eugene Lions quote that like,

844
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 1: if he thought these guys were innocent, they would do

845
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: he would do anything to to get him off, including

846
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: you know, putting witnesses on the stand knowing that they

847
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: were going to lie, and telling them to lie. And

848
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: this was a letter from Upton Sinclair based on an

849
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:29,879
Speaker 1: interview with Fred Moore, so it's has has a lot

850
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: of teeth. But the the thing there was another letter

851
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 1: from Upton Sinclair, another quote from Upton Zinclair where he

852
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 1: said that Fred Moore had confessed to him that um

853
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: ven Zetti was innocent, and he knew he was innocent,

854
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 1: but he was pretty sure Sacho wasn't. But all he

855
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,799
Speaker 1: had to do was go to the the jury and say, hey,

856
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: you we all know that you don't have anything on

857
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 1: ven Zetti. There's no reason for you to to to

858
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 1: prosecute this man. But he knew that if he did that,

859
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: the jury would be like, well, you're probably right, but

860
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 1: we're gonna come down really hard on Socco. So he

861
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 1: had this dilemma and he took it to van Zetti,

862
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: he said, and Vanzetti said, you know what, try to

863
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 1: save Nick nicolasako Um, he has the wife, he has

864
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: the child. I don't try to get him off. So Vanzetti,

865
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: in this retelling by Fred Moore, gave his life on

866
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: the chance that that Fred Moore could get Sacho off,

867
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 1: because if he got Sosacho off, he get Vanzetti off,

868
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: if he got Vanzetti off, he would almost surely sink

869
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 1: um Sacco and Vanzetti wouldn't take the take the opportunity

870
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 1: to to to be acquitted at the expense of Saco,

871
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 1: which is pretty amazing. Yep. So that's Sacco and Vanzetti, everybody.

872
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:50,319
Speaker 1: That's what Asacho and Vanzetti is now, you know, I

873
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 1: guess when guilty and one innocent. That's what it sounds like,

874
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: what it sounds like. If you want to know more

875
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: about Saco and Vinzetti, go look up Doug Linder. I

876
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 1: believe he has a whole site on true crime, and

877
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: there's plenty of other stuff out there that we found

878
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 1: two on the internet about Sacho and Vanzetti and their

879
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: famous trial. And since I said Sacho and Vanzetti like

880
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: eighty times, it's time for listener mail. I'm gonna call

881
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 1: this response to a short stuff. UM yeah right, hey guys, Uh,

882
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 1: your show is one of my favorite podcasts, so much

883
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:23,800
Speaker 1: so that I've taken to listening to it while I

884
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 1: get ready for work. WHOA, we know that is your

885
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: sacred time. Um. I just finish the episode on Black

886
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: Loyalists and immediately started to write the email. UM a

887
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: Rhode Islander in Nova Scotia for work and got so

888
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,479
Speaker 1: excited to hear a little piece of Nova Scotia's history

889
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 1: on there. I looked into the Loyal Loyalist Heritage Museum,

890
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: but it only has weekday operation, so I don't think

891
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: I'll be able to make it there. I'll definitely do

892
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 1: some exploring of Halifax in the coming weeks, and we'll

893
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 1: be on the lookout for more information. I just wanted

894
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,359
Speaker 1: to mention on the show that it was Josh said

895
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: that Rhode Island and out I have ever had slaves. Um. Actually,

896
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:04,879
Speaker 1: we were the first state to abolish slavery in two

897
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 1: but the law was mostly ignored and we ended up

898
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: with the most slaves per capita of any comedy. I

899
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: did not know that we also had a pretty booming

900
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 1: slave trade in Newport, Rhode Island, now known for their

901
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: gilded aged splendor. A piece of Rhode Island history I'm

902
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: sure most don't learn in history class that I wanted

903
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 1: to shed light on. Thanks for always putting out a

904
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: funny and informative and entertaining show that is from Nadine Greed.

905
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, Nadine. That was great. Thanks for listening

906
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 1: while you get ready for work. Hopeworks going well up

907
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: there in Nova Scotia. Just think spring to you and

908
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 1: everybody up there in Nova Scotia. Frankly, if you want

909
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 1: to get in touch with us, you can join us

910
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 1: on Stuff you Should Know dot com. Check out our

911
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 1: social links there. Uh, and you can just send us

912
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 1: a good old fashioned email, wrap it up, spank it

913
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: on the bottom, and send it off to Stuff Podcasts

914
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: and how stuff Works dot com. For more on this

915
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff Works dot com.

916
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: M