Speaker 1: Hey, friends, it's Eric. Let's talk about something hard. How
Speaker 1: many times have you made a promise to yourself and
Speaker 1: broken it. You said you'd go to bed earlier, start exercising,
Speaker 1: or stop reaching for that late night snack, but when
Speaker 1: the moment of choice came, something pulled you in the
Speaker 1: wrong direction. Those moments, those choice points, are where everything happens,
Speaker 1: and when we keep failing at them, it doesn't just
Speaker 1: derail our goals. It chips away at something deeper, our
Speaker 1: trust in ourselves. But it doesn't have to stay that way.
Speaker 1: In my upcoming free workshop, the Six Saboteurs of Self Control,
Speaker 1: we'll explore what happens at these choice points, why they're
Speaker 1: so hard to navigate, and most importantly, how to approach
Speaker 1: them differently. This isn't about willpower or trying harder. It's
Speaker 1: about understanding the hidden forces that lead to making the
Speaker 1: wrong choices and learning the tools to rebuild your confidence
Speaker 1: one choice at a time. Imagine trusting yourself again, knowing
Speaker 1: that when you say you'll do something, you actually follow through.
Speaker 1: That's what this workshop is about. Join me and let's
Speaker 1: turn your choice points into moments of strength. Go to
Speaker 1: Goodwolf dot me slash self control. That's Goodwolf dot me
Speaker 1: slash self control to register for this free workshop.
Speaker 2: I think so often when we're looking outward, whether we're
Speaker 2: judging or comparing, or whichever end of the spectrum we're
Speaker 2: looking at, it's all just so often a mirror of ourselves.
Speaker 3: Wow, welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great
Speaker 3: tinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 3: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 3: you think, ring true. And yet for many of us,
Speaker 3: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativevity,
Speaker 3: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 3: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 3: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 3: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 3: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 3: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 3: the right direction, how they feed their good Wolf. Thanks
Speaker 3: for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Kimmy Caulp,
Speaker 3: a TV and film producer and the host of the
Speaker 3: All the Wiser podcast. As a filmmaker, television producer, and
Speaker 3: podcaster Kimmy has traveled the world interviewing hundreds of people
Speaker 3: with the intention of inspiring audiences. Today, Kimmy and Eric
Speaker 3: do one of the collaborative interviews that Eric is done before,
Speaker 3: where they're really not talking about a specific project, but
Speaker 3: just having a conversation.
Speaker 1: Hello Kimmy, Hello Eric. As listeners would have heard, this
Speaker 1: is a special collaborative episode where I'm not interviewing you,
Speaker 1: You're not interviewing me. We're just talking. But I am
Speaker 1: going to start off by asking you a question that
Speaker 1: I ask all the guests that come on our show,
Speaker 1: which is about the parable of the two wolves. And
Speaker 1: in the parable, there's a grandparent talking with their grandchild
Speaker 1: and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside
Speaker 1: of us that are always at battle. One is a
Speaker 1: good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love,
Speaker 1: and the others a bad wolf, which represents things like
Speaker 1: greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops, thinks
Speaker 1: about it for a second, looks up at their grandparents, says, well,
Speaker 1: which one wins, and the grandparent says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 1: that parable means? To you in your life and in
Speaker 1: the work that you do.
Speaker 2: When I hear you say it and when I read it,
Speaker 2: it immediately makes me think of inner dialogue and how
Speaker 2: we speak to ourselves on a daily basis, and then
Speaker 2: the implications of the ripple effect of that self view
Speaker 2: into the world right into anyone and everyone we interact with.
Speaker 2: So it's a hugely powerful statement that for me clicks
Speaker 2: immediately and goes to that place immediately of how we
Speaker 2: talk to ourselves about ourselves. And then the next step
Speaker 2: is the implication that has in the world for good
Speaker 2: or for bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a great place to start, which
Speaker 1: would be sort of examining the way we talk to
Speaker 1: ourselves and what our thought processes look like. You know,
Speaker 1: there was for you a fairly fundamental point where you
Speaker 1: were able to come forward and be open about your
Speaker 1: mental illness bipolar disorder. And I guess I'm wondering, did
Speaker 1: your internal self talk was that shifted much by that
Speaker 1: actual moment or that was really just sort of a
Speaker 1: beginning and then and it's been you know, incremental change
Speaker 1: since then, and how you talk to yourself internally.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2: That's a great question and I think the answer is
Speaker 2: that it did shift specific to my mental health and
Speaker 2: my narrative around that. I don't think all the other
Speaker 2: really mean, horrible voices necessarily changed as a result of
Speaker 2: the sharing of that piece of information, but it's certainly
Speaker 2: changed and shaped the way I talked to myself about
Speaker 2: being a woman with a mental illness. So I think
Speaker 2: I had more distorted, negative, frankly mean things to say
Speaker 2: about it to myself before sharing, and in the sharing
Speaker 2: it alleviated.
Speaker 4: I think a lot of the shame.
Speaker 2: And negative talk around it put some light and lightness
Speaker 2: around it for me for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I know for me. You know, when
Speaker 1: I started sharing and saying that I was an alcoholic,
Speaker 1: I would have identified as an addict at that point.
Speaker 1: It certainly changes a lot of that dialogue, at least
Speaker 1: for me, because all of a sudden, I had a
Speaker 1: lot of other people saying yeah, me too, Yeah me too,
Speaker 1: Yeah me too, and that idea that like lots of
Speaker 1: other people share this was really powerful. I remember reading
Speaker 1: the Narcotics Anonymous book, and this was a while before
Speaker 1: I got sober. It wasn't like I read this book
Speaker 1: and suddenly I got sober, but I remember this moment
Speaker 1: very clearly, and I don't remember a lot very well,
Speaker 1: but I was reading the Narcotics Anonymous book, and I
Speaker 1: remember I just was sobbing through the whole thing because
Speaker 1: for the first time I heard people articulating what was
Speaker 1: going on inside of me, and I was seeing like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is what I have. Oh, these are the symptoms
Speaker 1: of it. Oh other people have felt this. It's just
Speaker 1: there's something about hearing someone else be able to help
Speaker 1: us articulate our inner world and not be alone that
Speaker 1: is so powerful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this analogy which
Speaker 2: I shared lately, This idea of like being in a classroom,
Speaker 2: which we've all been, and you have no idea what the.
Speaker 4: How it's supposed to work. You don't get it. You know,
Speaker 4: you're just sitting there like.
Speaker 2: Like I am so freaking confused, and the idea of
Speaker 2: raising your hand and being afraid of what the people
Speaker 2: around you are going to think, or what the person
Speaker 2: in the front of the room is going to think,
Speaker 2: and asking the question and having like a sea of
Speaker 2: heads nod and say me too, I'm confused, and like
Speaker 2: the relief that comes. It's just this very simple thing
Speaker 2: of knowing we're not alone and you're recovery with addiction.
Speaker 2: It sounds like with NA you said I'm not alone.
Speaker 2: It's simple and as complex as that all at once, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: And that obviously unfolds in stages. At least for me,
Speaker 1: there was the initial like, oh, this is what I have,
Speaker 1: this is what's wrong. But then you know, when I
Speaker 1: started actually going into treatment and going to meetings, there's
Speaker 1: a part of me that was, and I think this
Speaker 1: is common, was looking to find ways I wasn't like
Speaker 1: the other people around me, both because maybe I was
Speaker 1: hoping to be able to talk myself out of needing
Speaker 1: to be there, and because you know, there's some sense
Speaker 1: of always wanting to be special in my mind. I
Speaker 1: always want to be special. I want to be exceptional,
Speaker 1: And to say I'm just like the rest of you
Speaker 1: was difficult for me, but very healing.
Speaker 2: So would you say you didn't want to identify with them?
Speaker 2: Like sometimes there's this not wanting to identify, like I
Speaker 2: want to prove to myself like oh no, no, no, it's
Speaker 2: not as bad as that guy.
Speaker 4: Or that girl.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: I have found that with people who are publicly living
Speaker 2: with bipolar disorder. I want to quickly explain to everyone,
Speaker 2: but that's not me.
Speaker 4: That's not me. I'm not I don't have it that bad.
Speaker 2: So did you find that in your recovery journey and
Speaker 2: your recovery story being with you know, other recovering addicts
Speaker 2: that you wanted to separate yourself. You said you, But
Speaker 2: I guess I'm curious about digging a little deeper as
Speaker 2: to the why.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think there's a few factors at work. I
Speaker 1: think one is still feeling my way into am I
Speaker 1: really an alcoholic? Am I really an addict? You know?
Speaker 1: And in that case, I think anybody who's paying any
Speaker 1: attention is smart enough to know this. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: that I'm particularly smart. The implication is if I'm an
Speaker 1: addict or an alcoholic, well thank you. If I'm an
Speaker 1: addict or an alcoholic, I can't ever use again. And
Speaker 1: that is not the answer I'm looking for at this
Speaker 1: juncture in my life. Right. So there's a part of
Speaker 1: me that's a trying to get help, But there's another
Speaker 1: part of me that's trying to go you.
Speaker 4: Don't really belong here, man, It's just not yeah.
Speaker 1: You can do it? Like have you thought about doing
Speaker 1: it this way, you know, So I think the denial
Speaker 1: inherent in addiction is at work there. I think the
Speaker 1: other thing is it's very interesting to watch how we
Speaker 1: respond when we are thrown into a new group, because
Speaker 1: we are social creatures and we are wired to sense
Speaker 1: out hierarchy almost immediately. And I found when I get
Speaker 1: into a new group situation, I do one of two things.
Speaker 1: I've gotten much better at this, but it still happens
Speaker 1: sort of automatically, and I have to work with it,
Speaker 1: which is that I'm either looking around going I'm better
Speaker 1: than them, I'm better than them, I'm better than them,
Speaker 1: or I'm way worse than them, I'm way worse than them.
Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter what the criteria is, right, if
Speaker 1: it's an addiction, it has to do with addiction. If
Speaker 1: it's at a podcast conference, it's you know, how many
Speaker 1: downloads do I ever, so how many they have them?
Speaker 1: But groups do that to us. Yeah, And I think
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that groups can be a
Speaker 1: particularly potent form of healing, is if we recognize that
Speaker 1: it brings out our insecurity. And now I can watch
Speaker 1: how I react when I feel insecure, and again, for me,
Speaker 1: it's often alternating within the same five minute window, better
Speaker 1: than worse then, better than worse then, And so I
Speaker 1: think that was the other element that had me trying
Speaker 1: to be different or special.
Speaker 2: And I think so often when we're looking outward, whether
Speaker 2: we're judging or comparing or you know, not a bad
Speaker 2: or whichever end of the spectrum we're looking at, it's
Speaker 2: all just so often a mirror of ourselves, right, yes,
Speaker 2: you know, whether we view it as our lacking or
Speaker 2: you know, so often what we desire, right, you see
Speaker 2: something and yeah, So it is totally fascinating that within groups,
Speaker 2: I think so much of what we're observing is just
Speaker 2: a mirror and reflection of our own inner world.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. You know, in the spiritual habits programs
Speaker 1: that we do, we do a lot of group work,
Speaker 1: and I find it a really good opportunity to say
Speaker 1: what you and I just said to people ahead of time, like,
Speaker 1: watch what's going to happen as you end up in
Speaker 1: this group, because it is a great reflection of your
Speaker 1: inner state, and just see how you can notice it
Speaker 1: and be kind to yourself. Don't be judgmental that you're
Speaker 1: doing that, because every human on the planet does it?
Speaker 1: But notice it and then notice is there a different
Speaker 1: way you could maybe respond? You know, can you respond
Speaker 1: in a way that is kinder to yourself or is
Speaker 1: kinder to the people around you?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 1: I think seeing it can be really powerful.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you know when we were talking earlier, we
Speaker 2: were talking about identifying the good and the bad of labels.
Speaker 2: They can be of value and helpful. I think there's
Speaker 2: times when they can be harmful for different reasons. So
Speaker 2: you and I both I think, started our podcast driven
Speaker 2: by clearly our own personal stories and journeys. So I
Speaker 2: was curious in recovery and you mentioned, you know, alcoholism
Speaker 2: and addiction all these years later, because how long have
Speaker 2: you been sober?
Speaker 1: Fifteen years of continuous sobriety this time, and I had
Speaker 1: eight years right before that, so you know, twenty three
Speaker 1: years more or less most of my adult life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so most of your adult life. And how much
Speaker 2: do you personally identify with those Yeah.
Speaker 1: That's been a journey that has been unfolding. But I
Speaker 1: identify as an alcoholic, yeah, and an addict. Now, whether
Speaker 1: I would put ex alcoholic or ex addict in front
Speaker 1: of it, I don't know. I just don't you know.
Speaker 1: I came up in twelve step traditions and twelve step traditions,
Speaker 1: that's just what you know. High America, I'm an alcoholic,
Speaker 1: right yeah, or High America I'm an addict. So on
Speaker 1: a broad sense, I identify with those terms still, and
Speaker 1: to me what they mean is I can't drink or
Speaker 1: use drugs safely.
Speaker 2: So it's almost a reminder of that past self.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a reminder just that those things have not
Speaker 1: worked out for me historically and that it's not a
Speaker 1: good idea now. Where I ran into a problem in
Speaker 1: twelve step programs and is one of the things that
Speaker 1: led me to be much less involved than I used
Speaker 1: to be, is that oftentimes that term alcoholic or addict
Speaker 1: ends up getting a lot of other stuff thrown on
Speaker 1: top of it. That it means, and you know, it
Speaker 1: means we're different than most people. It means that we
Speaker 1: are particularly damaged in some way. It means that we
Speaker 1: have a bad character. I mean, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: different things, even within a supportive movement like that, that
Speaker 1: different groups layer onto that. And that is what I
Speaker 1: sort of really lost a sense of because I went,
Speaker 1: you know what the difference between say me and you,
Speaker 1: is maybe you can have a couple drinks successfully and
Speaker 1: I can't, right, yeah, But beyond that, we're probably very
Speaker 1: much similar in a thousand different ways, right, And so
Speaker 1: I stopped seeing myself as being different than other people,
Speaker 1: you know, like the world as a whole, humans as
Speaker 1: a whole. But I did see myself as different in
Speaker 1: that regard, almost like well, you know, if I had
Speaker 1: a peanut allergy, I can't eat peanuts. Now that is
Speaker 1: an analogy that is a little bit simplistic, but it
Speaker 1: gets to the heart of it for me.
Speaker 2: As you're sharing that, I'm thinking that it's really about
Speaker 2: the labels and these associations that society and culture that
Speaker 2: we collectively have put around things. Because I guess where
Speaker 2: I was getting at with that question. Something I've thought
Speaker 2: about and myself is there's owning the truth of who
Speaker 2: you are, right, even the aspects and perhaps most importantly
Speaker 2: the aspects that you may have had shame and secrecy around.
Speaker 4: But then for me.
Speaker 2: It has been and that's why I was curious to
Speaker 2: hear from you, sort of a journey to not have
Speaker 2: that be the entirety of my identity. I give it
Speaker 2: so much power. Yet there's like everybody in the world,
Speaker 2: You and every human being were layered. We're dynamic, we're
Speaker 2: lots of things, and going back to what we feed,
Speaker 2: I feel like I was so caught up on the
Speaker 2: pieces of myself, my body, my being, my chemistry that
Speaker 2: I deemed damaged versus the other pieces that you know
Speaker 2: are often thriving, are really working well.
Speaker 4: And that's interesting to me.
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, And I think there's a natural healing
Speaker 1: journey that happens. Right, So when I went into treatment
Speaker 1: and recovery firm addiction, or when you were newly diagnosed
Speaker 1: as bipolar, right, there is a moment where that identity
Speaker 1: takes a little bit more of a prominent, center stage role.
Speaker 1: And it's appropriate that it does. Right for a couple
Speaker 1: different reasons. A for me, I was dying and I
Speaker 1: needed to really give that identity a lot of attention
Speaker 1: and care and love. It's also that at that moment,
Speaker 1: given where addiction took me, I wasn't much else anymore. Right,
Speaker 1: I was a homeless heroin addict that was spending my
Speaker 1: time either doing drugs or stealing to get drugs. I mean,
Speaker 1: there wasn't much else to identify with at that point, right,
Speaker 1: But as I naturally got better, and as I got healthier,
Speaker 1: and as my life expanded, there was more and more
Speaker 1: and more and more of me to identify with, and
Speaker 1: that idea of myself as an addict took on lesson
Speaker 1: life and less and less area of importance, to the
Speaker 1: point that the only reason I think it's particularly important
Speaker 1: to me now is just simply to remember, don't do
Speaker 1: that again, because I've tried it again after being sober
Speaker 1: and it didn't work. So that's the reminder to me
Speaker 1: is you know, don't do that. It's destructive for you.
Speaker 1: But that's about all there is to it at this point. Now.
Speaker 1: You and I talked a little bit, and I think
Speaker 1: i'd love to hear some of your thoughts on this. Also,
Speaker 1: you know, we talked about depression, and I think that's
Speaker 1: one that there's even a more nuanced one for me,
Speaker 1: and one that I'm more in the middle of sorting
Speaker 1: out than I am alcoholic ratic. But first i'd love
Speaker 1: to kind of hear what you think about how your
Speaker 1: identity or label as someone who has bipolar has shifted
Speaker 1: over time for you.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll answer that, but first, thank you for that
Speaker 2: answer for myself and for everyone listening, because I think
Speaker 2: it's a really good one. That what I heard you
Speaker 2: say is the more healing and attention at that time
Speaker 2: desperately needed healing and attention for you, the more important
Speaker 2: it was to focus on that piece of your identity,
Speaker 2: and that over time as you grew and all these
Speaker 2: other and healed, which was like what led me to
Speaker 2: my question, all these years later, how do you identify?
Speaker 2: And I think that's beautifully put that there was a
Speaker 2: reason for the strong identity and association and with time
Speaker 2: and healing, that sort of dissipates, yet it still lives
Speaker 2: within you, right, It's still part of your story. So yeah,
Speaker 2: we talked about depression, and I know you said you
Speaker 2: had a hard time sometimes identifying or explaining yourself. Articulating
Speaker 2: that process for you and that emotion and feeling and
Speaker 2: way of being for you, I guess would probably be
Speaker 2: the right description. So I mean my experience with depression,
Speaker 2: I have lived with a lot more hypomania and anxiety
Speaker 2: being very ever present versus periods of you know, some
Speaker 2: people with bipolar, including people in my family, go through
Speaker 2: really incredibly painful depressive states to watch and witness, and
Speaker 2: I have had a few in my life that have
Speaker 2: been crippling, but I feel much more so. It's a
Speaker 2: battle and a dance with low grade depression. So it's
Speaker 2: not I'm not functioning I can't get out of, which
Speaker 2: I think probably a lot of people can relate to.
Speaker 2: It is this dark heaviness for what feels like no
Speaker 2: reason based on the circumstances of your life.
Speaker 4: And you know, sad.
Speaker 2: Seems like such a wouldn't be word to describe it,
Speaker 2: but it's hard to articulate what it feels like. And
Speaker 2: as I've often said, and I'm sure this is something
Speaker 2: you can relate to, I tend to layer shame upon
Speaker 2: that because I feel like I have a pretty good life, right,
Speaker 2: I have meaningful relationships, I have work and family that
Speaker 2: I love.
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's hard to.
Speaker 2: Explain other than you're in emotional pain and it's really
Speaker 2: tricky and hard to.
Speaker 4: Get out of.
Speaker 1: That describes my experience with depression. I had depression earlier
Speaker 1: in life where it felt debilitating at points. This is
Speaker 1: post getting sober, but over the years it has become
Speaker 1: as you would say, I would describe it much more
Speaker 1: as a low grade thing. And what I often wonder
Speaker 1: about is is it depression? Is it just part of
Speaker 1: the way my personality and my mind and our work?
Speaker 1: Am I just melancholic? Right? That's what they would have described,
Speaker 1: you know, some people are the melancholic temperament. They say,
Speaker 1: I think that's me. And so where I have been,
Speaker 1: you know, over the last number of years, is trying
Speaker 1: to balance using a word like I have depression, balance
Speaker 1: the benefit of using a label like that versus the downside.
Speaker 1: So the benefit to it is to say, this thing
Speaker 1: happens to me. I know that it happens. Here's the
Speaker 1: ways that I know how to treat it. Here's how
Speaker 1: I can work with it. I can be kinder to myself.
Speaker 1: Perhaps when it's happening. I cannot make a big deal
Speaker 1: out of it. The world seems like it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: anything today. But that's just not because the world doesn't
Speaker 1: mean anything. It's just because that's how you get time
Speaker 1: to time, and so relax Like that's enormously helpful. Right.
Speaker 1: The counter that I've started to really look at is
Speaker 1: by calling it depression. Am I taking some sort of
Speaker 1: normal range of human functioning? Am I labeling it in
Speaker 1: a way that either causes it to amplify or stick around,
Speaker 1: or am I feeding it in some way by giving
Speaker 1: myself that diagnosis? And I don't know the answer. Like
Speaker 1: I said, I'm still kind of working with it. And
Speaker 1: it's not a hugely important question for me right now
Speaker 1: because I think I hold it very lightly. But it's
Speaker 1: just little things like lately, I've really been this is
Speaker 1: probably the last year I've really been exploring the idea
Speaker 1: of am I depressed or am I just tired? Because
Speaker 1: you know what, for me, they feel very very similar.
Speaker 1: But tired is just I'm tired, go to bed. Eric, Yeah,
Speaker 1: depressed is a bigger problem, right, It causes a little
Speaker 1: bit more like, well I need to do something about that, right,
Speaker 1: whereas tired you just go I just go to bed.
Speaker 1: And so again that's where depression has been more of
Speaker 1: a nuanced element of that diagnosis. And you know, do
Speaker 1: I still have it? Do I not have it? How
Speaker 1: do I talk about it? What are the ways to
Speaker 1: engage with that label that give me the benefit of
Speaker 1: having a label but minimize the downsides of having a label,
Speaker 1: which is that we start to live sometimes into our expectations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard, you know, you're talking about depression and
Speaker 2: how it presents and shows up for you. I was
Speaker 2: thinking that for me, always an indicator is I feel
Speaker 2: incredibly empty and lonely. And when I know that it's
Speaker 2: depression is that I feel incredibly empty and lonely. Well
Speaker 2: in connection with other people, so I can be in
Speaker 2: a room with people that I love that light me up,
Speaker 2: and that connection is not firing, right I'm sitting there.
Speaker 4: And so it is hard that distinction between.
Speaker 2: There are days for everyone on the planet where it's
Speaker 2: hard to be a freaking human and the outlook is
Speaker 2: depressing or you're feeling melancholy, and it's nuanced, right, But
Speaker 2: it can be helpful to give language to anything, right,
Speaker 2: to just simply state, at least I know what this is, right,
Speaker 2: but you know, and it's interesting. I'm a mom of
Speaker 2: young kids, and often people are, you.
Speaker 4: Know, what the world tells them.
Speaker 2: They are certainly in the parental you know, if you're
Speaker 2: constantly saying, you know, well, you're the athletic one, or
Speaker 2: you're so I think how we identify in the labels
Speaker 2: we continue we give ourselves. It is a delicate dance, right.
Speaker 2: So it's times when it's helpful as you can say.
Speaker 2: I don't need to judge myself because I understand that
Speaker 2: this is depression and this is what it looks like
Speaker 2: and how it presents and shows up for me, but
Speaker 2: not over identifying like anything. I think, you know, there's
Speaker 2: two ways to look at it.
Speaker 1: So how do you work with, you know, a diagnosis
Speaker 1: of bipolar to again balance the positive aspects of it
Speaker 1: being a diagnosis a label, or do you see any
Speaker 1: negative sides to that identity? How do you work with
Speaker 1: this question of identity and your diagnosis.
Speaker 2: So it's funny because the thing I didn't talk about
Speaker 2: forever I now feel like I talk about all the time.
Speaker 2: I write about it. I talk about it. Everyone's like, God,
Speaker 2: is she gonna talk about, you know, living with bipolar again?
Speaker 2: But I still, to be honest, have a lot of
Speaker 2: issues around it, for lack of a better word. So
Speaker 2: part of me, like I said, liberating, I have a kinder,
Speaker 2: gentler narrative around quote unquote being mentally ill or living
Speaker 2: with a mental illness is a nicer, kinder way to
Speaker 2: describe it. But at the same time, like I said,
Speaker 2: I often want to distance myself to protect myself for
Speaker 2: people judging me as crazy or unhinged. You know, I
Speaker 2: can't control how the world experiences that label and that diagnosis.
Speaker 2: And when I'm openly, you know, putting it on myself,
Speaker 2: it feels a little out of control and scary and vulnerable. Still,
Speaker 2: and I find myself trying to associate with like historical
Speaker 2: figures in a positive light, you know.
Speaker 4: I mean it's really funny.
Speaker 2: I'm like, have you read that Winston Churchill may have
Speaker 2: been by Pooler?
Speaker 6: And then I'll quickly jump to somebody who is, you know,
Speaker 6: publicly going through something you know, very exaggerated and particularly
Speaker 6: maybe harmful and embarrassing and say, oh, no, no, but
Speaker 6: that's not me.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I still have a ton of insecurities and I'm
Speaker 2: still tripped up by it. Yet I get that when
Speaker 2: I was diagnosed, if I saw somebody, an older woman
Speaker 2: living a life that felt meaningful and right rich in
Speaker 2: many ways, who said I have this thing and I've
Speaker 2: learned how to manage it and live with it, that would
Speaker 2: have been hugely valuable and hopeful to me. So it's
Speaker 2: like I'm walking that tight rope because I think that's
Speaker 2: probably worth it.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I've always tried to err on this of being
Speaker 1: more open about addiction about depression, again appropriate. If I
Speaker 1: have to err on one side or the other, it's
Speaker 1: to be more open. And it's largely because I know
Speaker 1: how valuable it is for me to have heard other
Speaker 1: people talk about that stuff. So in my professional career
Speaker 1: before I did this, I was in the software development
Speaker 1: industry for a lot of years, and I was fairly
Speaker 1: open about those things there, and again appropriate, I didn't
Speaker 1: waltz into every meeting, but like, do you know I
Speaker 1: used to be a heroin addict you know? But what
Speaker 1: was interesting was that over time I started to find
Speaker 1: that two things happened. One was, over the years, different
Speaker 1: people would come up to me, often much later and
Speaker 1: be like, hey, Eric, my brother's really struggling with addiction.
Speaker 1: You know, what should I do? Or yeah, I've been
Speaker 1: dealing with depression. What did you do? So you know
Speaker 1: some of that which really helps others. But then I
Speaker 1: also sort of found it was in some ways a
Speaker 1: professional super power. And what I mean by that was
Speaker 1: so much of the work I did was about getting
Speaker 1: people to work well together and build good teams and
Speaker 1: just how does everybody come together? And that level of
Speaker 1: open sharing often leads to people trusting you. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: not saying I ever did it for a professional advantage.
Speaker 1: That is not what I'm saying, and that's probably a
Speaker 1: bad way to approach it, but that it did turn
Speaker 1: out to not only be good for others, but I
Speaker 1: think it in general was good for me in precisely
Speaker 1: the place I was most afraid that sharing it would
Speaker 1: be right. I thought that it would be a liability
Speaker 1: and it didn't seem to be. And then of course
Speaker 1: in general for me, it was just good to not
Speaker 1: be carrying secrets, to just be able to be who
Speaker 1: I really am.
Speaker 2: Now more than ever, people just want people to be real.
Speaker 2: H And when you're in a conversation or you meet
Speaker 2: somebody new in the first time, they share some piece
Speaker 2: of themselves that is real or raw or has some
Speaker 2: dapt or.
Speaker 4: Wait to it. You know there's a connection to it.
Speaker 2: You're like, oh, we had this moment and so this
Speaker 2: act which you're talking about in a more public setting
Speaker 2: like in work, which first of all, nobody with a
Speaker 2: voice like yours should be a software developer.
Speaker 4: You need to be in front of a microphone.
Speaker 1: Well it took me a lot of years, but here
Speaker 1: we are, thank you.
Speaker 2: It's a really powerful place of human connection, and you know,
Speaker 2: now we know there's research and science around it, but
Speaker 2: I do think it's a little bit superpowered.
Speaker 4: There's some magic to it.
Speaker 2: Ye, I have seen it for sure, Even in just
Speaker 2: sharing this podcast and being so open, I often see
Speaker 2: people and I don't know how to explain it other
Speaker 2: than the way that they interact with me is almost
Speaker 2: like as if we're closer than reflective of the time
Speaker 2: we've spent together. But I think it's because they trust me, right,
Speaker 2: they feel like, oh, yeah, Kimmy tells me everything.
Speaker 4: She trusts. I don't know. Now you've had that experience,
Speaker 4: have you?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And there's a lot of studies out there.
Speaker 1: I've looked a lot into building friendships as adults, because
Speaker 1: loneliness is a real problem in our world, and you know,
Speaker 1: throughout my years of coaching people, I've just come across
Speaker 1: a good number of people who are kind of isolated,
Speaker 1: and so I've looked into how do you build friends
Speaker 1: as an adult, And there's a lot of research out
Speaker 1: there that seems to show that to build friendships as adults,
Speaker 1: it takes a lot of hours of time, together. It's
Speaker 1: why you often become close with people at work. You
Speaker 1: just have the requisite amount of time, So it takes
Speaker 1: a lot of time. But I have also found that
Speaker 1: in certain circumstances that time can be greatly reduced, and
Speaker 1: it does tend to be when people are coming together
Speaker 1: around a shared human vulnerability.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: I made friends with people in twelve step programs way
Speaker 1: faster than I would outside of them. In our spiritual
Speaker 1: habits programs, often people come together much more quickly because
Speaker 1: they're really sharing from the heart. Now, again, this does
Speaker 1: not mean like show up to your local food bank
Speaker 1: and tell everybody you have bipolar and hope to make
Speaker 1: new friends, right Like, there's a nuance to this, but
Speaker 1: there is something to be said for in general that
Speaker 1: we can form closer connections when we are being fully
Speaker 1: authentically ourselves and when we're connecting around I guess I'll
Speaker 1: just use the word vulnerability. I feel like it's an
Speaker 1: overused word maybe these days. Yeah, we're sharing around a
Speaker 1: vulnerability or a common issue, it can really accelerate the
Speaker 1: process of getting close to people.
Speaker 2: I love that you brought up adult friendships because I
Speaker 2: think they're so invaluable They're so important, and it does
Speaker 2: take time and shared experience and nurturing and effort, which
Speaker 2: can be hard, right whether you're dealing with life and
Speaker 2: how much time you have, or whether you're dealing with depression,
Speaker 2: and like it feels hard enough to freaking get in
Speaker 2: the shower, Like do I really have time to call
Speaker 2: this person planet? So, yeah, I'm curious if there's anything
Speaker 2: else you know, poignant or you know, interesting or powerful
Speaker 2: that you've learned around adult friendships.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think there's a few things.
Speaker 2: I'm also curious about male friendships because I think it's
Speaker 2: so different for men.
Speaker 1: Well, I am very blessed. I don't have a lot
Speaker 1: of friends, but I have a good number of very
Speaker 1: close friends that I have had for a long time.
Speaker 1: You know, I started this podcast partially because my best friend,
Speaker 1: Chris and I weren't spending much time together and he's
Speaker 1: an audio engineer, and so one of my primary motivations
Speaker 1: was I'll start this podcast, and we'll have to do
Speaker 1: something together and I'll see him much more, which turned
Speaker 1: out to absolutely be a stroke of genius because it
Speaker 1: has happened deeply.
Speaker 4: We are he's still the engineer.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Yeah, that's awesome. He's listening right now.
Speaker 2: Hi Chris, Hi, Chris, Chris. What can you tell us
Speaker 2: about friendship?
Speaker 1: Well, Chris could tell you a lot. He's a savant
Speaker 1: of friendships. Actually, Chris and I did a episode it's
Speaker 1: our five hundredth episode. We were interviewed by my partner Ginny,
Speaker 1: who also sometimes does interviews on the show. She interviewed
Speaker 1: Chris and I all about what friendship is, which was
Speaker 1: really great because it was so fun to reflect on
Speaker 1: thirty five years of friendship with somebody.
Speaker 2: So it's so funny you brought that up because you're
Speaker 2: not gonna necessarily have this experience because of Chris. But
Speaker 2: when people had asked about podcasting, and there's so many
Speaker 2: things that I love, the creative process, the people that
Speaker 2: I meet, but I often described it as very lonely
Speaker 2: and I felt isolated because I realize how much I
Speaker 2: value collaboration. That I loved working in particular with really
Speaker 2: smart creative people, and everything I had done leading up
Speaker 2: to podcasting was in some level of collaboration or partnership,
Speaker 2: and that that energy fed me and I felt I
Speaker 2: was better as a result, Like literally, I feel more
Speaker 2: energetic when I'm sitting at a table brainstorming with other
Speaker 2: It was a silo, and you know, often I'm in
Speaker 2: a closet like sweating recording. And so during COVID, my
Speaker 2: friend Christy, who people who listen to this podcast it
Speaker 2: reminds me of you and Chris, I reached out and
Speaker 2: she has a degree in positive psychology, and I said,
Speaker 2: we tell these really incredible stories, but I'd love our
Speaker 2: listeners to be able to take action upon that inspiration.
Speaker 2: Do you want to start exploring whether we can work together?
Speaker 2: So I feel like we're still trying to figure that out.
Speaker 2: But the reason every time we talk about like is
Speaker 2: it working, is it not working?
Speaker 4: Should we be doing this? We're like, but we talk
Speaker 4: so much.
Speaker 2: I mean, the fact is it reconnected us and this
Speaker 2: is my childhood best friend. We would go six months
Speaker 2: without talking and now we talk and we are on voxer,
Speaker 2: And for both of us being somewhat perfectionists, we hold
Speaker 2: it so loosely like the product itself, whether it works,
Speaker 2: whether it's quote unquote good enough, because we get to
Speaker 2: be friends and we get to collaborate, and we get
Speaker 2: to talk about meaningful things and we have a date
Speaker 2: on the calendar, and so it's been so like personally
Speaker 2: and riching, and it's made the podcast a lot less
Speaker 2: lonely for me. So I'm glad you have Chris, and
Speaker 2: I'm glad I've had Christy these past two years.
Speaker 1: Indeed, and I think we've identified a pattern that I
Speaker 1: would not have identified before about adult friendship, which is, perhaps,
Speaker 1: you know, one way to do it is to have
Speaker 1: something that you do together, Yeah, you know, a project.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: One way that we know adult friendships happen is through volunteering,
Speaker 1: but only through a particular type of volunteering. And it's
Speaker 1: the type of volunteering that occurs over and over and
Speaker 1: over and over again. So a lot of times we
Speaker 1: will make a volunteer commitment, I'll go to the food
Speaker 1: bank this week and volunteer and maybe a'll make some friends, right,
Speaker 1: and we go and we volunteer, and we don't make
Speaker 1: any friends, and we go, well, that didn't work, right.
Speaker 1: Versus a commitment that said, all right, I'm going to
Speaker 1: go to every Wednesday to the food bank for the
Speaker 1: next three months, that gives you a really good opportunity
Speaker 1: to build a friendship because you're going to see the
Speaker 1: same people over and over. I mean, I probably won't
Speaker 1: look you in the eye till our third or fourth meeting, right, Like,
Speaker 1: I'm a shy person. Yeah, you know, throw me into
Speaker 1: a group of people I don't know, and it takes
Speaker 1: me a little while before I sort of really kind
Speaker 1: of come out of my shell, unless it's in a
Speaker 1: state where I'm like the host of the thing. But again,
Speaker 1: it throws me into any random soup kitchen on a
Speaker 1: Wednesday night with a bunch of people who know each
Speaker 1: other and you don't know me. It'll be three or
Speaker 1: four weeks before I start to really be able to
Speaker 1: be myself. It just takes me a while, and I
Speaker 1: think a lot of us are that way. So volunteering
Speaker 1: is a great way to make friendships, but we want
Speaker 1: to make sure that the type of volunteering we do
Speaker 1: is set up so that we have many, many exposures
Speaker 1: to people over time instead of like, oh, I volunteered
Speaker 1: to run registration at this five K, Like that's great,
Speaker 1: but you're not probably going to walk away from that
Speaker 1: experience with a new friend. You might, but knowing what
Speaker 1: we know, it takes time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think I don't know that working out
Speaker 2: would be the good or bad analogy. But you know
Speaker 2: if you go to the gym once or twice versus
Speaker 2: every Tuesday and Thursday after. But I do think those friendships,
Speaker 2: whether it's you and I, have created it through these podcasts. Right,
Speaker 2: there's a point of connection that's on the calendar. But
Speaker 2: I've often found in the past when my friendships have
Speaker 2: been really strong, there is some sort of anchoring piece.
Speaker 2: Like I used to have a friend and every Friday
Speaker 2: morning we walked. Yeah, like it just we were set
Speaker 2: up for connection and success because we had woven each
Speaker 2: other into that. So yeah, whether it's every Sunday night
Speaker 2: you go to the same Chinese restaurant or you know
Speaker 2: that repetition being proactive and intentional about I need to
Speaker 2: feel like I have more deep and meaningful friendships and
Speaker 2: this is a path to that, right and finding a
Speaker 2: shared experience that both people enjoy.
Speaker 1: And you just hit on a really important behavioral principle,
Speaker 1: Like I work a lot on how do we change
Speaker 1: our behaviors? And the general behavioral principle is separate decision
Speaker 1: from action, meaning whatever it is you want to do,
Speaker 1: you've got to plan ahead for it and set it up.
Speaker 1: But what you gave was a particularly great example where
Speaker 1: you basically make a decision every Friday, this happens, so
Speaker 1: I don't have to keep redeciding when I'm going to
Speaker 1: see Chris. It's every Friday. Now, of course, not every
Speaker 1: Friday happens. I'm traveling. We don't do it. But the
Speaker 1: rule is we're together. Instead of us having to figure
Speaker 1: out when we're going to get together over and over, right, now,
Speaker 1: we only have to figure out when we won't get together. Right.
Speaker 1: So it's structured in such a way that it's more
Speaker 1: likely to happen. And so much of behavior in life
Speaker 1: does come down to environment and structure, and so that's
Speaker 1: a really smart way to structure that friendship element.
Speaker 2: All right, So I love that I'm going to shift
Speaker 2: us now from a Friday coffee date with Chris to
Speaker 2: comparative suffering.
Speaker 1: Chris's life is way worse than mine.
Speaker 2: That let's just compare ourselves to Chris, and we're going
Speaker 2: to feel so much better about ourselves.
Speaker 1: Ninety nine out of one hundred people are going to
Speaker 1: pick my life over Chris's. So you know, let's just
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Chris.
Speaker 2: We love you, Chris, we do so you and I
Speaker 2: were both clearly drawn to some extent to understanding and
Speaker 2: being curious about suffering and what that looks like people.
Speaker 2: I certainly become very aware if you go back and
Speaker 2: look at the history of people I've interviewed, that's certainly indicative.
Speaker 2: But this notion of comparative suffering is something that I
Speaker 2: have learned through the podcast and particular an interview I
Speaker 2: did with doctor Edith Eager.
Speaker 4: Have you had her on your podcast?
Speaker 1: I have, yes.
Speaker 2: I mean, wow, I don't know if you are as
Speaker 2: obsessed as I am, But you.
Speaker 1: Know what amazed me about her? I mean she's a
Speaker 1: very old woman, yes, right, And so we'd be talking
Speaker 1: and I'd ask her a question, she'd start to answer,
Speaker 1: and she would just kind of wander off yeah mentally,
Speaker 1: and I thought, well, she's just lost a thread. She's
Speaker 1: an old lady's so she's wandering around sort of doing this,
Speaker 1: and then she just comes right back around and totally
Speaker 1: sticks the landing. I'm like, she was with me the
Speaker 1: entire time. I just couldn't follow her.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had the same experience, and I'm thinking, like, Okay,
Speaker 2: what is like the tech check situation going to be
Speaker 2: having a ninety four year old guest, Like, I was
Speaker 2: just not convinced that it was going to be smooth,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 4: Getting on and Mike checks and audio. Granted, she has.
Speaker 2: Really incredible people who work with her, but I mean,
Speaker 2: she is significantly more savvy than you know, forty year olds,
Speaker 2: I know. I mean, she's pretty jarre and impressive. For
Speaker 2: those of you who have not listened, I hope you
Speaker 2: will listen to Eric's interviewer my interviewer, both with doctor
Speaker 2: Edie Eager. Doctor Edie, who is a ninety four year
Speaker 2: old Holocaust survivor who published her first memoir at ninety
Speaker 2: But a big thing she talks about and she really
Speaker 2: introduced me to, is this notion of comparative suffering. And
Speaker 2: it's been really interesting for me in particular because the
Speaker 2: stories on my podcast All the Wiser are so often unthinkable, harrowing,
Speaker 2: you know, so people will say, oh, thank you so
Speaker 2: much for your podcast. It's really put in perspective like
Speaker 2: I should be that upset that my husband left me
Speaker 2: and I'm going through a divorce. Well, what doctor Edie
Speaker 2: would say is you should absolutely your pain is real.
Speaker 2: Your suffering has nothing to do with the fact that
Speaker 2: the Holocaust happened, and I suffered, And so she's really
Speaker 2: into that that is not the point or that it's
Speaker 2: helpful to anyone right when we compare our suffering, but
Speaker 2: instead to honor it, regardless of what that suffering looks like,
Speaker 2: because it's all real, right, and there isn't healing or
Speaker 2: a path forward without that first step of just honoring
Speaker 2: that your thing is really hard and that you're in it.
Speaker 2: And so as somebody who endured the greatest hell on earth, right,
Speaker 2: can you imagine something that is more steep and the
Speaker 2: deepest of suffering. And she's giving permission and validating everyone
Speaker 2: around her that their pain is real and it deserves
Speaker 2: to be seen, and it deserves to be heard, and
Speaker 2: they deserve to honor it so they can move through it.
Speaker 2: I just thought it was really beautiful of her and
Speaker 2: illuminating and helpful for me to understand what comparative suffering is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a pretty remarkable thing coming from her to me.
Speaker 1: This is a little bit like the concept of labels
Speaker 1: and identity, meaning that there's a fair amount of nuance
Speaker 1: in the conversation and there's a fair amount of you
Speaker 1: can use these things in helpful or harmful ways. And
Speaker 1: so the harmful way that comparative suffering shows up is
Speaker 1: I go, yes, my wife left me, but I'm not
Speaker 1: in Ukraine, So Eric, quit being a little baby and
Speaker 1: get over it. Yeah right, that's using comparative suffering in
Speaker 1: a really damaging way. And I won't heal from that divorce,
Speaker 1: yeah right, and I will perpetuate that pain on down
Speaker 1: throughout the world. Right, that's the negative use of it.
Speaker 1: I do think there is a place for perspective, but
Speaker 1: again it's nuanced for perspective exactly. There is a place
Speaker 1: to say, you know what, I do have a lot
Speaker 1: of great things in my life. You know, I do
Speaker 1: have a lot of benefit. And so the way I
Speaker 1: look at this, and maybe we're sort of strain out
Speaker 1: of comparative suffering, but this is how I sort of
Speaker 1: think about it, is that my goal is not to
Speaker 1: eliminate despite the parable of the wolves, my goal is
Speaker 1: not to eliminate either the positive or the negative from
Speaker 1: my life.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: It's to say, if there are bad things happening, acknowledge them,
Speaker 1: work with them, heal them, but don't lose sight of
Speaker 1: the fact that there's also lots and lots of blessings.
Speaker 1: Both those things can be true at the same time,
Speaker 1: and sort of like when I said, you know, early on,
Speaker 1: for me in addiction, the focus really had to be
Speaker 1: on me as an addict and healing that because that's
Speaker 1: what was present when we're in the midst of a
Speaker 1: great deal of suffering. I think the right orientation generally
Speaker 1: is tend to your pain, work with it, heal it,
Speaker 1: don't keep trying to minimize it away by saying, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I've got all these other good things, and not to
Speaker 1: get stuck in that, right, because I can get stuck
Speaker 1: in a place where nothing is good enough no matter
Speaker 1: what I do.
Speaker 4: I could not agree more.
Speaker 2: And it's this notion of both and right, that both
Speaker 2: things are incredibly true and incredibly powerful, And so you're
Speaker 2: not minimizing your pain and suffering or anyone else's.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: Yes, And also again cliche, try and be careful when
Speaker 2: I say, oh my gosh, this word is overused or
Speaker 2: this cliche, because I do try and remind myself that
Speaker 2: probably not everyone is as immersed as we are in
Speaker 2: this particular content.
Speaker 4: Right, It's like we're drawn to this work.
Speaker 2: But so what I heard you say is when you said,
Speaker 2: you know, there's this other piece that is helpful. What
Speaker 2: it made me think of is the gratitude is where
Speaker 2: I'm getting at where it's saying, this is gratitude practice.
Speaker 2: You may have heard it. You may be like whatever,
Speaker 2: I know, I'm supposed to be thankful? Man?
Speaker 4: Is that a powerful tool?
Speaker 2: It works for me, And like again going back to
Speaker 2: this depressive, low grade depression, feelings of emptiness or loneliness
Speaker 2: if I actively do it, and not just one thing,
Speaker 2: but why I am grateful for my husband being present
Speaker 2: with my daughter. So I could you know, just getting
Speaker 2: really specific in your gratitude. Yes, that for me was
Speaker 2: a big jump just from writing down a thing but
Speaker 2: then understanding why it had a deeply positive impact, and
Speaker 2: just some of the minutia, the small stuff, not just
Speaker 2: like the friendly checkout person, but like I was in
Speaker 2: a really bad mood and she smiled at me, and
Speaker 2: it made just writing it down, and like the gratitude,
Speaker 2: it works, it really works. And so maybe that's I'm
Speaker 2: just reflecting back to you what I heard you say,
Speaker 2: which is honor the suffering, but also kind of looking
Speaker 2: around and being grateful for what's working, even if that's
Speaker 2: just really small step and diving into fully understanding the
Speaker 2: large impact of those things that seem small.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I could go deep down a gratitude rabbit hole,
Speaker 1: which I'm not sure we want to do just yet.
Speaker 1: I just taught a weekend workshop at Omega Institute in
Speaker 1: New York and there were two topics, hope and gratitude,
Speaker 1: and doctor Eager made an appearance, not in person, I
Speaker 1: mean I use some of her words as a teaching point.
Speaker 1: So I don't want to go too far down that
Speaker 1: rabbit hole just yet. Let's come back to comparative suffering
Speaker 1: and maybe talk about how does it show up in
Speaker 1: your life? What are the ways that comparative suffering shows
Speaker 1: up in the unhealthy way that we've talked about it being.
Speaker 2: I'm not a person who I feel like minimizes other
Speaker 2: people's suffering a lot, even my kids. Like I know
Speaker 2: some people will be like, well that's dumb, it's you know,
Speaker 2: twelve year old girls stuff, Like I don't think that
Speaker 2: I minimize other people's suffering. I think I have a
Speaker 2: lot of empathy and compassion around mostly all suffering. It
Speaker 2: shows up for me personally, and feeling shame around my
Speaker 2: suffering that it is not enough or it is somehow wrong,
Speaker 2: Like what's.
Speaker 4: Wrong with you?
Speaker 2: You have so much, you have so much privilege, Like
Speaker 2: what the f are you seriously like trying to say
Speaker 2: that you're suffering?
Speaker 4: Really?
Speaker 2: So, I think that I compare my own pain and
Speaker 2: suffering and feel ashamed of having it in comparison to
Speaker 2: other people's suffering that mine doesn't feel particularly valid, if
Speaker 2: that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yep, So you honor it in other people and tend
Speaker 1: to think you shouldn't have it. As you were just talking,
Speaker 1: I thought about the extremes of human experience are often
Speaker 1: helpful teaching tools. Right, that's some of what you're doing
Speaker 1: on your show, right, You are bringing in extremes of
Speaker 1: human experience for what they have to teach, all of them.
Speaker 1: And Holocaust survivors like doctor Eager or el e. Vazel
Speaker 1: or Victor Frankel, they're inspiring because it's such an extreme thing.
Speaker 1: And then thought of another extreme example that shows sort
Speaker 1: of the comparative suffering element, and it is really rich
Speaker 1: and famous and successful people who kill themselves. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: like you. Robin Williams came to mind, right, and he's
Speaker 1: a little bit more complex because of some of the
Speaker 1: brain injury stuff he might have been having. But the
Speaker 1: point being, we can know that everybody's suffering is equal
Speaker 1: because we can take somebody who has all the privilege
Speaker 1: in the world at that point, all the money, all
Speaker 1: the fame, and they suffer so badly they kill themselves.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: We look at Anthony Bourdain, you look at Kate Spain.
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, I read a statistic recently, and I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's true, but let's pretend it's directionally true,
Speaker 1: because I'm sure it's in the neighborhood of being true.
Speaker 1: The more wealthy and safe and prosperous your zip code is,
Speaker 1: the more likely you are to kill yourself.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that doesn't me.
Speaker 1: That's startling, you know. I mean it does speak to
Speaker 1: that all types of suffering are really real and meaningful.
Speaker 2: Do they say why or is there any sort of clarity?
Speaker 1: No, I think that there's a variety. I don't think
Speaker 1: anybody fully knows, right, in the same way that we
Speaker 1: don't fully know, Like, why does it appear that depression
Speaker 1: and anxiety rates are going up so much? Is it
Speaker 1: that really depression and anxiety is going up? Is it
Speaker 1: that we report it better? Is there something about the
Speaker 1: modern Western ways of living. I think everybody's got theories
Speaker 1: on it, right. I mean, my theory tends to be,
Speaker 1: like the great song by the band DAWs, is that
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of everything, you know, it's a
Speaker 1: little bit.
Speaker 2: Of everything that seems like a really good explanation, a
Speaker 2: true one, A little bit of everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but comparative suffering may have a role. And now
Speaker 1: I'm firmly in speculation. I always like to be clear
Speaker 1: when I'm just making things up. So now I'm just
Speaker 1: making something up or speculating, which would be I wonder
Speaker 1: if in the wealthier Zay codes the comparative suffering issue
Speaker 1: manifests in that there is an element of that extra
Speaker 1: layer of shame that you talked about, which is like
Speaker 1: I'm doing so well, I am fortunate, I am lucky,
Speaker 1: and yet I still feel so miserable. I must really
Speaker 1: be broken.
Speaker 2: Well. I mean it's a larger issue, right with stigma
Speaker 2: and what we have said historically about mental illness and
Speaker 2: like pull yourself up by your boot, you know, get
Speaker 2: over it and not treating it what it is, right,
Speaker 2: which is brain health. Like, regardless of where you are
Speaker 2: socioeconomically or where you're living. If you have cancer, you
Speaker 2: have cancer, right, And so I think with mental health,
Speaker 2: the fact that somehow there is shame, right, I shouldn't.
Speaker 4: Be feeling this way.
Speaker 2: And as we know, shame leads to getting help and treatment,
Speaker 2: and it leads to the help that comes from healing
Speaker 2: and connecting with people around you by virtue of sharing,
Speaker 2: because you don't share when you're ashamed.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: So when you say it's a little bit of this
Speaker 2: and that, it makes sense to me. And you know,
Speaker 2: a lot of these illnesses, like bipolar frankly, can be
Speaker 2: a very fatal illness. People die from it, yes, you know, commonly,
Speaker 2: but because it's a mental illness, it's trickier for sure.
Speaker 1: I guess maybe the message would be, if you're suffering,
Speaker 1: really suffering, get some help, find ways to not suffer
Speaker 1: alone so much, because I think that's a big part
Speaker 1: of both you and I's story is let's end the secrecy,
Speaker 1: let's end the shame, and let's you know, move into
Speaker 1: communion with others around these things.
Speaker 4: Amen, brother, Amen.
Speaker 1: So we're nearly out of time, and there are many
Speaker 1: weighty topics that we could talk about. We could talk
Speaker 1: about them all day and we have been. But I
Speaker 1: would be completely remiss in my duties to my own
Speaker 1: heart if I did not bring up a book or
Speaker 1: a series of books that you have been a participant
Speaker 1: and of called a Letter to My Dog. Dogs are
Speaker 1: so incredibly healing to me. I think I learned how
Speaker 1: to love much better from a dog named Sadie. Tell
Speaker 1: me a little bit about that book and why you
Speaker 1: did that.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, my maiden name is Davidson, and I grew up
Speaker 2: with a dog nam.
Speaker 4: Harley, Harley Davidson.
Speaker 2: So I did not have a dog when I did
Speaker 2: a Letter to My Dog. I had just left working
Speaker 2: for Oprah Winfrey for the show and then for the network.
Speaker 2: There is a huge amount of dog lovers in that world,
Speaker 2: and I had worked on a personal project for her
Speaker 2: for the twenty fifth anniversary of her show. It was
Speaker 2: a book on my way out, you know, going to
Speaker 2: my next chapter. I was at a big dinner and
Speaker 2: this really accomplished photographer who's also in particular known for
Speaker 2: her photographs of animals and dogs, is at the table
Speaker 2: a book publishers at the table one of my bosses
Speaker 2: who's a huge dog person. And I was a producer,
Speaker 2: like I oversaw and executed and we you know, breaking bread,
Speaker 2: drinking wine. It was like, we should do a book
Speaker 2: about dogs, and we're like, how could it be different?
Speaker 4: We're like, what if people wrote letters to their dogs and.
Speaker 2: Was called And I was like, we could get kindergarten
Speaker 2: classes and we could launch a blog and we could
Speaker 2: get famous people.
Speaker 4: So that's what we did.
Speaker 2: We spent three years and it was like we poured
Speaker 2: our hearts into this.
Speaker 4: We had competitions and schools. We had Tony.
Speaker 2: Bennett writing letters and Robin traveled around the country photographing
Speaker 2: the dogs, and I was in charge of finding all
Speaker 2: the letters and the stories. And we published this book,
Speaker 2: A Letter to My Dog, and you know it's in
Speaker 2: paper source and anthropology. And we went to Costco and
Speaker 2: did book signings and we would like be next to
Speaker 2: the guy with the hot dogs and everyone would want
Speaker 2: the free food and not our book. And it was
Speaker 2: a total journey. But now I do have a dog
Speaker 2: who I love madly. Waffles is our dog, and that
Speaker 2: is a great dog name.
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you Waffles.
Speaker 2: The next thing I'm gonna say is not a joke,
Speaker 2: but Waffles is currently filming a music video with Beyonce.
Speaker 1: You're serious.
Speaker 2: I am one hundred percent serious, and so we already
Speaker 2: know I'm a little crazy, But just so you.
Speaker 4: Know, I'm not a doggy agent.
Speaker 2: Mom our dog walker works on sets training animals on
Speaker 2: sets and asked if Waffles could participate in that she
Speaker 2: needed a dog. But it ends up it's with Beyonce.
Speaker 2: So he's been with Beyonce for the past week.
Speaker 1: That is absolutely incredible. I am so glad I chose
Speaker 1: to go down this line of thinking. Does it bother
Speaker 1: you that you've been spending you know, your entire adult
Speaker 1: life in the entertainment industry and Waffles in his young career,
Speaker 1: is already far more famous than you.
Speaker 2: Well, we were dying laughing because he's been dropped off
Speaker 2: a couple of times in between, you know, hanging out
Speaker 2: with Bay and I was like saying like, I'm like,
Speaker 2: he has so much information and he can't tell us.
Speaker 4: I'm like, is she good to her people? Like was
Speaker 4: Jay there? Like what was she wearing?
Speaker 2: Like spill And I'm just looking at him, I'm like,
Speaker 2: you were just with Beyonce and you can't give me
Speaker 2: any information. Yes, So a little bit of a tangent,
Speaker 2: but hopefully and entertaining one uh literally, and the healing
Speaker 2: power of dogs and the joy factor. I feel like
Speaker 2: bringing a dog into our lives sparks so much joy
Speaker 2: and silliness and spontaneity that just would not exist. I
Speaker 2: think it's been great for relationships because walking the dog
Speaker 2: sometimes when we can get two of the people, it's
Speaker 2: helped us be closer with one another in that way.
Speaker 2: And Waffles is the point of connection. And you know,
Speaker 2: I think I told you this. My one daughter, probably
Speaker 2: a lot like me, is pretty sensitive to the world,
Speaker 2: and it is if he knows, like before I see it,
Speaker 2: maybe even before she feels it, will go and just
Speaker 2: crawl up and love on her because it's like he
Speaker 2: consents that she's going to need comforting. They're really really
Speaker 2: powerful beings. And so yeah, I'm so glad you brought
Speaker 2: it up. And I am curious about your dog. You
Speaker 2: mentioned that he can't walk on his back legs, and
Speaker 2: I heard you talking to him off mic and just
Speaker 2: the sweetest, most tender voice. So yeah, I'd love to
Speaker 2: hear from you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's Beansy. It's a girl. She's an old Boston Terrier,
Speaker 1: and I think we are probably within a few weeks
Speaker 1: of her time, her time coming. So sorry, Eric, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's tough talk about silliness and joy. I mean, she
Speaker 1: is just a clown and she has been a clown
Speaker 1: for thirteen years. But yeah, she's got a generative disorder
Speaker 1: in her back legs and they've just been you know,
Speaker 1: slowly failing and failing, and she's just not doing good.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a little bit sad. But you know,
Speaker 1: the thing with a dog I have found is there's
Speaker 1: a simplicity to a relationship with a dog, right, the
Speaker 1: simplicity of love, the simplicity of joy, and even when
Speaker 1: they go, there's a simplicity of grief.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Interesting.
Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is like I had
Speaker 1: two previous dogs in my adult life and they both passed,
Speaker 1: and they passed within like nine months of each other.
Speaker 1: And the second one, Ralph, went early. He went from cancer,
Speaker 1: you know, And there was a part of me that
Speaker 1: started to go like, well, it's not fair. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I just lost Sadie and Ralph's young, and but I
Speaker 1: just realized, like, well, animals get sick, they get old,
Speaker 1: they pass, you know. So I didn't have a quarrel
Speaker 1: with the universe, and by not having a quarrel with
Speaker 1: the universe over it, I was able just to fully
Speaker 1: grieve it. It was just this absolutely clean, searing, extraordinarily
Speaker 1: painful and powerful grief. But it just felt so simple
Speaker 1: and elemental. I would only hurt that much because I
Speaker 1: loved something that much, you know, like what a gift
Speaker 1: to have had something that meant that much to me
Speaker 1: for that long, Like what a gift. And again this
Speaker 1: isn't to minimize the grief. I felt all the grief,
Speaker 1: but in it I recognized the great love. So there
Speaker 1: was something really spiritual in that to me, in the
Speaker 1: way that I use the word spiritual, not otherworldly, but
Speaker 1: deeply meaningful. And so with Beans, I mean, I'm, you know,
Speaker 1: same sort of thing, like I feel like I'm carrying
Speaker 1: a high degree of weight around it. Just sadness. But
Speaker 1: she's had a wonderful, good long life and we've been
Speaker 1: very happy, and so we'll see her off in a
Speaker 1: beautiful way.
Speaker 4: Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 2: And I'm so happy that she brought you the joy
Speaker 2: and that the love that she did. And I think
Speaker 2: that's so beautifully about, you know, the brave act of
Speaker 2: loving when we know it's we're going to experience the
Speaker 2: loss and how clean and simple and heartbreaking that losses.
Speaker 4: That really made a lot of sense to me.
Speaker 2: So I hope you get to soak up a lot
Speaker 2: of precious moments in these next weeks or months with her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm glad I got to talk about it
Speaker 1: and give her.
Speaker 4: On air honor a shout out.
Speaker 1: Yep to Waffles not to forget me.
Speaker 4: I know now I feel like an asshole.
Speaker 2: Your dog's passing away and I'm talking about Waffles romping
Speaker 2: with Beyonce.
Speaker 4: Comparative suffering.
Speaker 1: No, I'm joyful for Waffles. I am joyful for Waffles,
Speaker 1: and I hope he doesn't forget you. And he's famous,
Speaker 1: that's all.
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, well, I'm glad we got to talk about
Speaker 2: the power of you know, dogs and animals in our
Speaker 2: lives because I think it's really really impactful.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, Kimmy, thank you so much. This is it's
Speaker 1: been really fun. I knew from the first moment that
Speaker 1: you and I connected that this was going to be
Speaker 1: a great conversation in to my years at your husband.
Speaker 2: Yes, I feel the same way. I'm a big fan
Speaker 2: of your show and your work, and I hope everyone
Speaker 2: listening will discover it if they.
Speaker 4: Have not already.
Speaker 1: Yep, and right back at you.
Speaker 5: Okay, take care, Okay, bye bye.
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