1 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 2: Anthony Scararett Mouchi joining us right now. He is, of 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 2: course the founder of Skybridge Capital. He also served as 4 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 2: a White House Communications director during the Trump administration. And 5 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 2: of course you've been a big investor in the cryptos space, Anthony, 6 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 2: I do just want to get your thoughts about the 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 2: recent run up that we've seen in bitcoin. I think 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 2: last time I check her around fifty two thousand, a 9 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 2: far cry from sixty nine, but looks like we're headed 10 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: in that direction. 11 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: But a big move from sixteen seventeen, eighteen thousand towards 12 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: the end of twenty twenty two, which was the anipist 13 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: horblest for crypto. But I think the one thing I 14 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: would just add on the coinbase situation, everything's up. It's 15 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: going to improve the staking on the alt coins and 16 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: there's huge margins in that. So even if they lose 17 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: a little on the exchange traded funds meeting some of 18 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: their customers by the ETF as opposed to just buying bitcoin, 19 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: you know, natively on the exchange, they're picking up revenues 20 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: from the whole lift in the overall market capitalization. 21 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 2: Do you think that so you think this is going 22 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 2: to spread beyond just bitcoin itself. I know it's already 23 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 2: done that to a certain extent, but the narrative has 24 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: always been, Okay, spot bitcoin and ts, you don't really 25 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 2: need coin Base, but we forget that there's a whole 26 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: other ecosystem out. 27 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: So I think what has typically happened is as you 28 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: see a swelling in bitcoin, the grandfather of crypto's, it 29 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: sort of spills over into the other assets. And so 30 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: just what happens is you're making profits in bitcoin, you 31 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: start to redeploy them into riskier assets, and some of 32 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: those assets are really not that risky relative the bitcoin. 33 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: As an example, Ethereum in Salona are probably now in 34 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: that big boys club. And so but listen, you know 35 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: you you you stake with a place like coinbase because 36 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: it's safe, it's good, you know, highly good regulatory process 37 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: inside there. It's probably one of the best run crypto 38 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: currency exchanges in the world, So you feel the safety there, 39 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: and they do take a reasonable size of the profits 40 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: as a result of that, and I don't think we 41 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: should underestimate that. 42 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 3: So Gary Gunser made pretty clear that the SEC was 43 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 3: holding his nose as it approved those spot bitcoin ETFs. 44 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 3: What does that mean for the prospect of ETFs backed 45 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 3: by other cryptocurrencies, like like anything else. 46 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: You are so nice because I you know, say that 47 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: he was holding his nose, is you know he had 48 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: like a vomit bag under the desk, like when he 49 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: was like, you know, so you are just such a 50 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: nice person. But you know what I would say is 51 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 1: that he's up against it because he's lost several cases. 52 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: He will another lawsuit to get there. I think he will. 53 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: I think he will. I think he's decided that the 54 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: powers that be politically in the elite don't like crypto, 55 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: they don't like the energy around bitcoin, and I don't 56 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: think they want an ETF for ethereum, and so that 57 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: made decision I think gets pushed. I think it causes 58 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: another lawsuit. He'll like lose that lawsuit, and then you're 59 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: coming up against the election. And so then the real 60 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: question is will mister Gensler in a new Joe Biden administration, 61 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: will he be the SEC chairman. My guess is he 62 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: probably won't be. 63 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 3: At that point, I want to go back to bitcoin 64 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 3: for a moment, because of course you've made a lot 65 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 3: of headlines when you gave a bitcoin price forecast of 66 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 3: one hundred and seventy thousand dollars about eighteen months after 67 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 3: the having in April. Given the rally that we've seen 68 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 3: fifty two thousand above that level, what's your latest price forecast? 69 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: You're sticking with that. I am sticking with that. But 70 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: the typical thing what I was trying to say in 71 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: that podcast was there's a technical analysis that you can 72 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: do over the past fourteen years the price at that 73 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: time of the having. If you multiply that by four, 74 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: that's typically where bitcoin has run to in that cycle. 75 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: And so I was just using a fifty thousand dollars 76 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: number for April. So this could run up because there's 77 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: a lot of momentum right now. You guys are seeing 78 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: that the network is only producing nine hundred coins a day, 79 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: and you know you've got twelve times the demand of 80 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: that right now, which is why you're seeing a price 81 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: squeeze to the upside. So I'm going to stick with 82 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: that price prediction only because I think it's conservative based 83 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: on where we are right now. I think people need 84 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: to understand look at what happened in the video, look 85 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: at what happened to Apple over the last decade and 86 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: video over the last eighteen months. It's not impossible now 87 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: that this asset has been regulated and has this regulatory 88 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: ETF wrapper around it. And remember, you know I've been 89 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:31,799 Speaker 1: on Wall Street, just my thirty six year on Wall Street. 90 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: Wall Street sells product and you know these products are 91 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: sold and not bought, and you have armies of people 92 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: now that are putting these products in people's portfolios, and 93 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: it's very limited demand for an asset like bitcoin. 94 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: You actually look great for a guy who's been on 95 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 2: Wall Street for thirty six years. 96 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: By the way, so a lot of botops in my 97 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: forehead roomman, I can give you a referral to my 98 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: dermatologist that you have an interest. 99 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: I might need it one day. I am curious, though, 100 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 2: I mean, who is kind of in this space right now? 101 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: Because you talk about how, okay, we maybe we see 102 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 2: a repeat of Nvidia and Apple and some of these 103 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: big run ups year, but you know that takes a 104 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 2: lot of retail interests, some of that that really got 105 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 2: shook out when we saw that big drop last year 106 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: or in twenty twenty two, excuse me, whatever it was. 107 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: Are we going to see more of those people come back? 108 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: Into it, meaning this isn't just going to be the 109 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 2: whales and some of the institutional in crypto faithful. 110 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: So it's a really good question. And so the skeptics 111 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: are saying it's the whales genceler themselves trying to make 112 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: the argument that it's a few people that control bitcoin. 113 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: We really don't see that. Over seventy percent of the 114 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: holders of bigcoin own less than one bitcoin. But what 115 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: I do see is continued adaption, and I see people 116 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: like black Rock and Fidelity adding it to their omnibus 117 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: portfolios over time. And so I think this thing squeezes 118 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 1: up and the skeptics, particular people that are on the 119 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: short side, are going to have to get out of 120 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: the way. 121 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 3: You talked about how Wall Street sells products, and we've 122 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 3: seen obviously Wall Street leaders like Larry Fink, like Howard 123 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 3: Lutnik talk up crypto following the launch of those spot 124 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 3: fit twentyts. What portion of Wall Street leaders do you 125 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 3: think really understands the dynamics and the inner workings. 126 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: Of the asset class. Would you say it's a quarter 127 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: of them, behalf of them, It's probably a handful of them. 128 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: I think it's a great question. I think the answer 129 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: is it's a handful of them. But here's what I 130 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: would say to my Wall Street contemporaries. It's a one 131 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: way ticket towards bitcoin. Meaning the more research you do 132 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: and you go down the rabbit hole or bitcoin to 133 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: understand the network, the decentralized properties of the network, the 134 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: immutability of the network, it becomes a very, very compelling thing. 135 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: So if you look at a Paul Tutor Jones, or 136 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: a Stanley truck and Miller, A Larry Fink is an 137 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: example who was negative on bitcoin twenty four to thirty 138 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: six short months ago, understood better what it was, and 139 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: then green lighted the ETF. And so my prediction is 140 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: as people understand it better. When I hear Wall Street 141 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: executives railing against bitcoin, my secondary question is how much 142 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: homework have they actually done or are they saying that 143 00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: because they are under the gun with regulators. 144 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 3: All right, Skybridge Capitals founder Anthony Scaramucci, the one and only, 145 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 3: thank you so much for joining us today. 146 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: It's good to be here.