Speaker 1: You're out of order. I'm out of order. This whole
Speaker 1: country is out of order. It's one more thing.
Speaker 2: I'm strong and getty, one more thing.
Speaker 1: We're trying to remember what line or what movie rather
Speaker 1: than that screed was from.
Speaker 2: And it's an ancient al Pacino movie reference, back when
Speaker 2: he somewhat acted as he was transitioning into his yells
Speaker 2: all the time phase.
Speaker 1: Right, What was that the Whoah movie?
Speaker 2: No, Scent of a Woman. The Scent of a Woman
Speaker 2: is the Hua movie? Who It doesn't matter, No, it
Speaker 2: doesn't before we get to that. So I've been thinking
Speaker 2: about taking my kids to see the Eagles of the
Speaker 2: Sphere in Vegas. Because I've been to the Sphere to
Speaker 2: see the video show, which is amazing. I'd like to
Speaker 2: see a concert there. At least one of my kids
Speaker 2: really likes the Eagles, so I'd like to go, but
Speaker 2: I need to see it.
Speaker 1: As you know, I insist on calling them some Eagles.
Speaker 2: Okay, really, if Don Henley's there and a cover band
Speaker 2: that sounds like the rest of them, I'm happy. But
Speaker 2: I need to see a little more effort out of
Speaker 2: my kids' school wise before I do an expensive, lavish
Speaker 2: fun trip like this, I think, but I might go
Speaker 2: see this not at the sphere, but doing residency where
Speaker 2: you just camp at a at a casino and you
Speaker 2: play there every single night. The Crew Motley Crue, and
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, single guy my age, that's a perfect place
Speaker 2: to meet women. Isn't it a Motley Crue concert venue.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be everybody like roughly my age.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, I see your point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it might be a good place to go shoot
Speaker 2: your shot.
Speaker 1: Jack. I'm appalled for some reason, but I'm not sure why.
Speaker 1: I just I always had contempt for the uh that
Speaker 1: sort of hair band rock, you know. I've revisited some
Speaker 1: of the Crew stuff, and some of it's good hard rock.
Speaker 1: Just a whole image thing put me off because I
Speaker 1: was more of the thinking man, it's hard rock guy.
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is true or not, but
Speaker 2: it's possible that they felt the same way. But we're told, look,
Speaker 2: in this current moment, you need to have giant hair
Speaker 2: and dress like this.
Speaker 1: It's the equivalent of the picture that they tried to
Speaker 1: make us take for our entire career, standing back to back,
Speaker 1: smiling like morons, and we always refused to do the cliche.
Speaker 1: DJ Team pic. It was just too revolting.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'll spray a little Pulo after shave on my
Speaker 2: neck and go check out a Crew concert in Vegas.
Speaker 1: You do that, wear a bandana around your neck? Shot
Speaker 1: shot God, oh boy, you know it's Katie. It's one
Speaker 1: of the great pleasures of my life. Amusing and or
Speaker 1: appalling you doing this.
Speaker 3: Glad you guys just deflated me.
Speaker 1: I love you. So a couple of interesting things. I
Speaker 1: read this piece by who wrote this? Oh, Charles Layman.
Speaker 1: Do you know Charles Faine Layman. He writes right now
Speaker 1: for the Free Beacon, which is doing some great journalism.
Speaker 1: If you're not hip to the Washington Free Beacon, that
Speaker 1: is one of the foremost conservative publications. Sometimes over the
Speaker 1: line a little bit, but man, they got some great
Speaker 1: thinkers there anyway.
Speaker 2: So his piece is.
Speaker 1: About America's disorder problem, and he starts off with a
Speaker 1: discussion of whether crime is on the rise or not,
Speaker 1: and actually, and it surprises me, he missed the fact
Speaker 1: that the FBI statistics are are completely wildly inaccurate. They
Speaker 1: leave out some major cities, and they their their methodology
Speaker 1: is terrible. And then the very Justice Department, for which
Speaker 1: the FBI works does another giant survey or it's one
Speaker 1: of your government branches on crime victims and asks people
Speaker 1: have you been a victim of crime this year? And
Speaker 1: the numbers there's a wild mismatch because of the number
Speaker 1: of people who don't bother calling the cops though they
Speaker 1: have been victimized by crime, indeed often violent crime. So anyway,
Speaker 1: but we'll skip over that. His not going into that,
Speaker 1: but what I call the cops of.
Speaker 2: My house got broken into if my car and I
Speaker 2: don't know that, I would, you.
Speaker 1: Know, I probably would. It depends. Are you in a
Speaker 1: blue city, blue county, blue state or red.
Speaker 2: I definitely wouldn't if my car got broken into.
Speaker 3: Not even a question I've done, especially in California, complete.
Speaker 2: Waste of time house maybe, But it depends.
Speaker 1: And there are certainly some neighborhoods, some of the rougher
Speaker 1: neighborhoods where the most crime is that if somebody knocks
Speaker 1: you down and takes your phone, you would just go
Speaker 1: buy another phone, Yeah, which is unfortunate. But anyway, getting
Speaker 1: back to Layman's point, he's taking about the perception that
Speaker 1: crime is on the rise, whether it is still rising
Speaker 1: or as Plateau or is even going down a little bit.
Speaker 1: And he talks about and he starts in Chattanooga, Tennessee,
Speaker 1: he says, and he talks about their crime is kind
Speaker 1: of leveled off. But I argue they've done so at
Speaker 1: the expense of controlling disorder in the city, public homelessness, trash,
Speaker 1: drug related violations, etc. This is what has prompted persistent
Speaker 1: unease even as crime has come down.
Speaker 2: Interesting, I was just thinking that the whole perception thing
Speaker 2: is up. I have a perception of crime is up,
Speaker 2: but it's mostly because I see scary looking people laying
Speaker 2: on the sidewalk and you know, garbage carts tipped over
Speaker 2: places and just stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then the other quibble I have with them
Speaker 1: is that not only is the reporting of crime being down,
Speaker 1: the arresting of reported criminals is down. The prosecution of
Speaker 1: arrested criminals down because of the breakdown of our police
Speaker 1: and our justice system. So again, I do not trust
Speaker 1: crime statistics unless they are the victim's survey.
Speaker 2: And you know who has accurate statistics is the walmart
Speaker 2: that I went to recently and needed some idbprofue because
Speaker 2: I had a headache and it was locked up and
Speaker 2: it didn't used to be, never was before, but it
Speaker 2: is now just happening. Like the last couple of weeks
Speaker 2: they locked up everything in the pharmacy area at the Walmart.
Speaker 2: They didn't do that for fun, because that would be
Speaker 2: expensive and a pain in the ass. They did it
Speaker 2: because they had to, right.
Speaker 1: And he does talk about police deprioritizing order enforcement, and
Speaker 1: now I'm done quibbling to his writing. I increasingly think
Speaker 1: that this is a more general phenomenon. Disorder is not
Speaker 1: measured like crime. There's no system for aggregating measures of
Speaker 1: disorder across cities, but if you look for signs, they
Speaker 1: are there. Retail theft, though hard to measure, has grown
Speaker 1: bad enough that major retailers now lock up their wares
Speaker 1: in many cities. To jackpoint, the unsheltered homeless population has
Speaker 1: risen sharply. People seem to be controlling their dogs less.
Speaker 1: Road deaths have risen, even a vehicle miles driven declined,
Speaker 1: suggesting people are driving more irresponsibly.
Speaker 2: That's that's everybody's perception.
Speaker 1: Public drug use in cities from San Francisco to Philadelphia
Speaker 1: has gotten bad enough to prompt crackdowns. These are fuzzy signals.
Speaker 1: But they jibe with my personal experience. In the half
Speaker 1: dozen cities I've visited in the past year, visible disorder
Speaker 1: has been a common feature.
Speaker 2: Yesterday and Davis, I saw a guy's full ass that
Speaker 2: would fit into this too, where it just feels like,
Speaker 2: just feels like things are worse because this guy was
Speaker 2: pushing his cart down the kind of limp and down
Speaker 2: the street and his pants sound solow. I was looking
Speaker 2: at his entire Harry Valentine staring straight at me.
Speaker 1: Wasted junkies showing bare ass in the public. That's right,
Speaker 1: that's disorder. Most conspicuous in my experience is the way
Speaker 1: that retailers have responded. It's not just CVS. Coffee shops
Speaker 1: seem to have gotten more hostile and less welcoming. This is,
Speaker 1: I suspect because they are dealing with people who steal,
Speaker 1: cause a ruckus or shout up in the bathroom, disorderly
Speaker 1: behaviors that they have to deter before they cost them customers.
Speaker 2: You know, here's another example, or maybe you're going to
Speaker 2: get to this one, but this one's all these little
Speaker 2: impressions that just give you a little bit of a
Speaker 2: h That's right. Society sucks. Anytime I'm any place and
Speaker 2: I want to go to the bathroom, there's a code.
Speaker 2: Need to give you the code because it's locked. It's
Speaker 2: just another Oh that's right, society sucks now. Used to
Speaker 2: be able to come here and you eat and you
Speaker 2: just go to the bathroom, but now you have to
Speaker 2: get a code because so many criminals or whatever the
Speaker 2: hell is going on.
Speaker 4: Or it's like when San Francisco got all warm and
Speaker 4: fuzzy and just at the Starbucks and decided, oh, anybody
Speaker 4: can use our bathrooms, the homeless people need it. That
Speaker 4: lasted for like what two months before they ended up
Speaker 4: just closing all the bathrooms because they.
Speaker 2: Got so trashed. Should so they either have a code
Speaker 2: or there's no bathroom at all, Right.
Speaker 1: So what is disorder anyway? Part of the problem with
Speaker 1: talking about disorder is that it's hard to define. In
Speaker 1: disorder and crime, a Northwestern political science researcher Wesley Scogan
Speaker 1: argues that disorder is in part distinguished from crime by
Speaker 1: the untidiness of its definition and its dependence on often
Speaker 1: fuzzy normative values. So you define it by the fact
Speaker 1: that it's hard to define. Assault and battery is easy
Speaker 1: to define anyway. Unlike criminology, which avoids many complex conceptual
Speaker 1: issues simply by pointing to the statute books to classify behavior,
Speaker 1: the study of disorder necessarily examines conflicts over uncodified sets
Speaker 1: of norms. The concept joins together such distinct activities as building, abandonment,
Speaker 1: and public drinking. Indeed, the challenge of defining disorder is
Speaker 1: part of what has made it a controversial topic, with
Speaker 1: critics contending that disorder is just another word that the
Speaker 1: powerful use for whatever it is. The non white, poor
Speaker 1: and otherwise marginalized do, yes, that's you're a racist to
Speaker 1: be against disorder.
Speaker 2: That's really good stuff. So all that pushback about here
Speaker 2: statistics showing crime is going down, Well, if I you know,
Speaker 2: I'm at a little restaurant and all of a sudden
Speaker 2: they don't have a bathroom anymore, and I want to
Speaker 2: buy myabiprofen and it's locked up, and just lots of
Speaker 2: little things like that. Yeah, you have the sense that
Speaker 2: there's more disorder.
Speaker 1: A couple more chunks from this that I thought we're
Speaker 1: so thought provoking, and you know, just doesn't aside to
Speaker 1: everybody else on the crew. I love the fact that
Speaker 1: we can stretch out and go into these things in
Speaker 1: a little more depth during the One More Thing podcast,
Speaker 1: since the you know, the the radio show which becomes
Speaker 1: armstrong and getting on demand is governed by the clock
Speaker 1: in a way that perus podcast is not. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: know there are days, I think anyway, when we think
Speaker 1: of disorder, we might think of, for example, a man
Speaker 1: blasting loud music from his phone in a subway or
Speaker 1: in an airplane terminal, which.
Speaker 2: If he's just sitting there. How about if he's just
Speaker 2: sitting there, working man in the subway, Well.
Speaker 1: That's definitely disorderly. Yes. Teenagers spray painting graffiti on a
Speaker 1: public park, a large homeless encampment taking over a city block,
Speaker 1: a man throwing his trash on the ground and walking away.
Speaker 1: A group of women selling sex on a street car.
Speaker 1: These are all disorderly behaviors, as distinguished from the physical
Speaker 1: disorder of an abandoned lot. One feature that seems to
Speaker 1: join them is the way in which they affect public
Speaker 1: as opposed to private space. The guy playing loud music
Speaker 1: in pinges on everyone else, the encampment in the litter
Speaker 1: both constrain the use of the street corner. These behaviors
Speaker 1: in other words, claim for the disorderly individual space which
Speaker 1: is nominally for everyone and therefore which is meant to
Speaker 1: be shared by everyone. From this little exercise, he writes,
Speaker 1: I want to take a first stab at a definition
Speaker 1: disorder is domination of public space for private purposes. What
Speaker 1: do you think of that?
Speaker 2: Pretty good?
Speaker 1: Yep, if I want to go to that very dramatic.
Speaker 2: But when my kids were younger, especially, you want to
Speaker 2: go to the park and there's some rando guy laying
Speaker 2: in the grass with his pit bull running around. Yeah,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I'm not going to that park anymore.
Speaker 2: He has claim that for his private space living, working.
Speaker 1: Oh and it's sort of pointing out for Blue staters
Speaker 1: in Red States this is not a problem living, working,
Speaker 1: or commuting in such spaces, as most city dwellers must
Speaker 1: entail some degree of cooperation so that everyone can get
Speaker 1: some part of the thing which no user has a
Speaker 1: specific legal right to public space that has to be shared.
Speaker 1: Private purposes are those things which, by contrast, we do
Speaker 1: only for ourselves, or which others might want to be
Speaker 1: excluded from our doing. Listening to music, sleeping, producing trash,
Speaker 1: having sex, etc. And then he gets into the fact
Speaker 1: that disorder is the natural state.
Speaker 3: Of the world.
Speaker 2: Ah, good point.
Speaker 1: Which is true politically, Physicsly, it feels the opposite because
Speaker 1: you've been around order your whole life or I have.
Speaker 2: Right, it feels like that's the natural state and we're
Speaker 2: letting something creep in. No disorder, All that gross stuff
Speaker 2: is the natural state until you enforce the other stuff
Speaker 2: on it.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeaholtly, what is the thing? The natural state of
Speaker 1: the universe's entropy or the trend is toward in other words,
Speaker 1: chaos disorder. And then he points out and I'll just
Speaker 1: touch on a couple more aspects of this, but he says,
Speaker 1: an odd feature of many parts of American society is
Speaker 1: how little litter there is. And if you've ever spent
Speaker 1: any time in Mexico, you know this to be true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can go to some cities and see a lot
Speaker 1: of it, but there's far less even there than there
Speaker 1: ought to be relative to how much litter. Rational actors
Speaker 1: ought by default to produce, So littering. Putting trash somewhere
Speaker 1: other than a designated receptacle unburdens the litter at by
Speaker 1: default essentially no cost. It's easy and if done correctly fun.
Speaker 1: If you don't believe me, try chucking cans off an overpath.
Speaker 1: But that we don't because we have created a certain
Speaker 1: amount of order in our society. And it's to all
Speaker 1: of our wonderful, wonderful benefits. And the fact that we
Speaker 1: don't have coffiness music in every you know, gate at
Speaker 1: the airport, and and you know, people are not masturbating
Speaker 1: on every public conveyance or park bench and the rest
Speaker 1: of it. Thank god. I don't think there's not graffiti everywhere.
Speaker 2: It's a weird thing to do.
Speaker 3: Masturbate on a subway, Yeah, about a park bench.
Speaker 1: The fresh air, you know, the smell of the trees,
Speaker 1: the squirrels, people walking by.
Speaker 2: I feel like if I were alone on a subway
Speaker 2: with no danger of anybody even seeing me, I couldn't.
Speaker 5: I just wouldn't. It just doesn't seem nothing with that aude.
Speaker 5: It just doesn't seem like a sexy atmosphere. I don't
Speaker 5: want my bare bottom on that gross seat. There's just
Speaker 5: a lot of reasons why I wouldn't.
Speaker 2: I mean history, Yeah, So then you combine the fact
Speaker 2: that there are people watching, and I definitely just can't.
Speaker 3: You just gotta I get so high you don't realize
Speaker 3: what you're doing.
Speaker 2: Is that it?
Speaker 1: Hello, So finally I want to get to this and
Speaker 1: this is it's a very very long think piece, and
Speaker 1: I wish we had time for all of it.
Speaker 2: But now that stadium put my legs up on the
Speaker 2: seat in front of me. Oh come on, yeah, wow unanimous.
Speaker 2: I wish we had stones here, we'd stone you. But anyway,
Speaker 2: why then is there not more disorder?
Speaker 1: And the answer is what criminologists and sociologists call social control,
Speaker 1: the regulation of individual behavior by social institutions through informal
Speaker 1: and formal means, shared values, shared values, and a responsibility
Speaker 1: to your community, which your community will demand of you.
Speaker 1: And that is what has crumbled, and part of it
Speaker 1: is and I just read another philosophical piece on this
Speaker 1: the whole diversity is our greatest strength. Bullshit that we
Speaker 1: heard for years and years, and you dared not raise
Speaker 1: your voice against we did for a long time. They
Speaker 1: tried to shut us down several times. But and I'm
Speaker 1: not anti diversity in a new way. It can make
Speaker 1: things really interesting and can be a strength. But shared
Speaker 1: values are a greatest strength by like a million miles,
Speaker 1: and diversity challenges and often damages shared values. That's why
Speaker 1: we have a disorder epidemic. We lack shared values and
Speaker 1: a cohesive community that enforces them through formal and informal means.
Speaker 1: Why did I not chuck garbage on the street I
Speaker 1: grew up in in suburban Chicago land because I would
Speaker 1: have been harshly, you know, remonstrated to use the fancy term.
Speaker 1: I would have been chewed out, dragged by my ear
Speaker 1: back home, or my dad would have had at me.
Speaker 1: Is that true in your neighborhood? Now, friends, I ask you,
Speaker 1: and why not?
Speaker 6: Okay, here's my idea. Jack says he can't find a bathroom.
Speaker 6: What about a bathroom truck instead of an ice cream truck.
Speaker 6: It's a truck with the you know, a little song plane.
Speaker 6: People wave it down, down, you flag it down. People
Speaker 6: go in the back, there's a you know stall, they
Speaker 6: do their thing, and yeah, we know.
Speaker 1: What a toilet is.
Speaker 2: And then if you have to urinate it, yeah we
Speaker 2: get that. I have been asking for more paid toilets
Speaker 2: for years. That's what I've found in a number of places.
Speaker 2: Mexico City had them, they have them, had them in Russia.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: I love the idea. That it keeps out a certain segment.
Speaker 2: Who and it's not much money, but it keeps out
Speaker 2: the worst segment and uh, and it keeps them clean
Speaker 2: because they can afford to clean him.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Although the one I went to one Moscow, it was
Speaker 2: a paid toilet and it was very clean in there,
Speaker 2: but it was just a hole in the ground. I
Speaker 2: mean you just there was just a hole in the
Speaker 2: cement squatting or a hole, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was cloe. So, Michael, if you need
Speaker 1: like financing for this idea, because I'm picturing like sections
Speaker 1: of various cities that have the food trucks, where's the
Speaker 1: bathroom truck? Where there is food and drink, there is
Speaker 1: need for a bathroom. I'm not a doctor, but I'm
Speaker 1: pretty confident about this. Your bathroom trucks are a brilliant idea.
Speaker 1: I think it's the volume. You couldn't get enough volume
Speaker 1: to turn a profit. Yeah, eat more, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1: The number of toilets per vehicle. That's disgusting. That's worse
Speaker 1: than what I said.
Speaker 6: You took pretty bad.
Speaker 4: Now you took the cake jack with the whole feet
Speaker 4: up at the baseball stadium.
Speaker 1: Yeah you mean yeah, I think we kind of did. Yeah, Michael, please.
Speaker 6: All right, Well I guess that's it.
Speaker 5: Yeah,