1
00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:10,039
Speaker 1: How do prions infect healthy proteins? Someone please ask about

2
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:11,800
Speaker 1: Aunt Lion Queen's.

3
00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,520
Speaker 2: What does a concert sound like near a black hole?

4
00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,720
Speaker 2: Can medical maggots help make a wound hole?

5
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:24,880
Speaker 1: Biology, physics, archaeology, forestry. We like medicine, so thank you chemistry.

6
00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,800
Speaker 2: Do you have questions about particles or cats? We'll find

7
00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:30,040
Speaker 2: answers to all of that.

8
00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,240
Speaker 1: Whatever questions keep you up at night. Daniel and Kelly's

9
00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:34,599
Speaker 1: answer will make it right.

10
00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,320
Speaker 2: Welcome to another Listener Questions episode on Daniel and Kelly's

11
00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:56,120
Speaker 2: Extraordinary Universe. Him Daniel, I'm a particle physicist with a

12
00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:01,000
Speaker 2: growing interest in biology, and I love here feedback from

13
00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,120
Speaker 2: listeners about the new podcast format.

14
00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,080
Speaker 1: Hello, I'm Kelly Wiener Smith. I study space and parasites.

15
00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,800
Speaker 1: I also love hearing from the listeners, and I'm excited

16
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,319
Speaker 1: about the kind of creepy crawley stuff we're talking about today.

17
00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,080
Speaker 2: I am too. There's so much about our natural world

18
00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,119
Speaker 2: which is amazing. Even if we don't understand quantum gravity

19
00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,640
Speaker 2: and how all the particle bits come together to make

20
00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,760
Speaker 2: this bizarre world, it's still totally worth studying. With so

21
00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,640
Speaker 2: many incredible, gooey mysteries and the.

22
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,400
Speaker 1: Non gooey mysteries are good too. I'm also becoming a

23
00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,360
Speaker 1: budding physics enthusiast. You gave me the other day a

24
00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,680
Speaker 1: pod in physics, and I'll take it.

25
00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. It turns out people can be interested in physics

26
00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,279
Speaker 2: and in biology and and all sorts of crazy things

27
00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,959
Speaker 2: about our extraordinary universe. And I just wanted to read

28
00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:47,880
Speaker 2: a snippet from a listener who wrote to me and

29
00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,640
Speaker 2: encourage anybody out there to write to us questions at

30
00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:52,920
Speaker 2: Daniel and Kelly dot org. Send us your questions, send

31
00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,120
Speaker 2: us your feedback, send us your ideas, send us your

32
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,920
Speaker 2: hopes and dreams, send us your love letters from fifth grade, whatever,

33
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,880
Speaker 2: and we'd love hearing from you. Particular listener has a

34
00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,600
Speaker 2: long history with me and wrote that he originally quote

35
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,920
Speaker 2: had the idea that I wouldn't be as interested in

36
00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,280
Speaker 2: a podcast that wasn't focused entirely on physics. How wrong

37
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,080
Speaker 2: I was. I have found myself fascinated by the biology episodes,

38
00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,840
Speaker 2: especially the recent episodes on insulin and gender, and I

39
00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,200
Speaker 2: have to feel like I'm going along for the ride. Also,

40
00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,880
Speaker 2: like I didn't know how fascinating biology was, and so

41
00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,800
Speaker 2: I'm really grateful to get to explore all these topics.

42
00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,120
Speaker 1: And I'm so grateful for everyone who's given the biology

43
00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,440
Speaker 1: a chance, everyone who sort of came for the physics

44
00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,040
Speaker 1: but is staying for the biology and hopefully is enjoying

45
00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:38,440
Speaker 1: it as well. And the listener mentioned the insulin episode.

46
00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,680
Speaker 1: We are super lucky to have Katrina Whitson coming for

47
00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,000
Speaker 1: a little guest appearance on the show again today. But yes,

48
00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,640
Speaker 1: I read that email too, and it absolutely made my month.

49
00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:49,360
Speaker 1: I love when we get emails like that.

50
00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,800
Speaker 2: Me too. And also, you can't mention Katrino without referring

51
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,120
Speaker 2: to all of her accolades. I know if you're aware

52
00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,360
Speaker 2: she's the Whites And Endowed Chair at the Whites And Institute.

53
00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,880
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, wow incredible. I have been dying to

54
00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,160
Speaker 1: get an adjunct position at the Whites And Research Institute.

55
00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,720
Speaker 2: The review process is really strict. Yeah, a bunch of

56
00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:09,600
Speaker 2: snobs over there.

57
00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,480
Speaker 1: I've met Katrina. I'm not sure about that. She seems

58
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:15,160
Speaker 1: very nice.

59
00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,639
Speaker 2: No, of course, we'd love to have you anyway. Today

60
00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,520
Speaker 2: we are talking about your questions about this extraordinary universe,

61
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:27,120
Speaker 2: physics questions, black hole questions, weird protein questions. We'd love

62
00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,560
Speaker 2: to answer your question on the podcast. Please do right

63
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,000
Speaker 2: to us questions at Danielankelly dot org. Again, if you

64
00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,480
Speaker 2: write to dot com, you'll be sending your message to

65
00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,960
Speaker 2: a very lovely couple who just got married, but that's

66
00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:39,320
Speaker 2: not us.

67
00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:44,040
Speaker 1: Congratulations Daniel and Kelly. We wish you a beautiful forever together.

68
00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,560
Speaker 2: And Daniel and Kelly dot com. If you guys have questions,

69
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,440
Speaker 2: send them to us. We'd love to have you guys

70
00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:50,240
Speaker 2: on the podcast.

71
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,440
Speaker 1: Hey, Daniels and Kelly's.

72
00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:53,520
Speaker 3: Well.

73
00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,040
Speaker 1: Our first question today is an amazing question by Niall

74
00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,320
Speaker 1: about pry on or pre on. I don't know I'm

75
00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,320
Speaker 1: going to say it, however, you know it comes out

76
00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:03,800
Speaker 1: of my mouth at the time, but let's go ahead

77
00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:04,440
Speaker 1: and hear the question.

78
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,480
Speaker 3: Hi, Kelly and Daniel, my name is Nile, and I

79
00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:13,160
Speaker 3: have a question regarding preons and preon diseases. I understand

80
00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,040
Speaker 3: that preons are misfolded proteins that are capable of causing

81
00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,839
Speaker 3: significant damage to our nervous systems if we are exposed

82
00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:26,240
Speaker 3: to them. However, I am particularly interested in understanding why

83
00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:32,880
Speaker 3: preon diseases are infectious slash contagious. Specifically, I'm wondering what

84
00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:38,080
Speaker 3: causes our normal properly folded proteins to adopt the misfolded

85
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,680
Speaker 3: preon structure when exposed to them, rather than just defaulting

86
00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:47,280
Speaker 3: to their correct structure. I would greatly appreciate any insight

87
00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,200
Speaker 3: you can provide on this topic. Thank you so much,

88
00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:51,000
Speaker 3: And I love the show.

89
00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,279
Speaker 1: This is a fantastic question that I did not know

90
00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,360
Speaker 1: the answer to, and you'll see that by the end,

91
00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,839
Speaker 1: I spent five hours slamming my head against the lit

92
00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,520
Speaker 1: and eventually we called in someone smarter than either of us,

93
00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,159
Speaker 1: and that's where Katrina comes in. But let's back up

94
00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,240
Speaker 1: a little bit, all right, So how do diseases usually

95
00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:15,039
Speaker 1: replicate and transmit? So, if you have a bacterial infection,

96
00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,800
Speaker 1: like you've got a cold, the bacteria get into your

97
00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,440
Speaker 1: body and then those bacteria start making more and more

98
00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,080
Speaker 1: of themselves and they, you know, spread throughout your body.

99
00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,919
Speaker 2: That's kind of creepy, right, You're being like colonized by

100
00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:27,359
Speaker 2: some malevolent force.

101
00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,840
Speaker 1: It is pretty creepy. Yeah. And then if you get parasites,

102
00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,120
Speaker 1: like you know, the parasites that I love to talk

103
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,880
Speaker 1: about so much, something like tapeworms or nematodes, what usually

104
00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,560
Speaker 1: happens there is every single infection you get is because

105
00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,000
Speaker 1: you have accidentally, for example, consumed an egg that was

106
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,240
Speaker 1: in the environment. And so the way you get more

107
00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,840
Speaker 1: of those infections is you accidentally encounter and consume more

108
00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,320
Speaker 1: of those eggs. For viral infections, the way you get

109
00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,120
Speaker 1: more of those is that the virus injects some of

110
00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:57,320
Speaker 1: its genetic material.

111
00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:59,400
Speaker 2: So gross, so gross.

112
00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,080
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I know I hate viruses and bacteria, but

113
00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:04,800
Speaker 1: none of them are as bad as ticks. Ticks are

114
00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,440
Speaker 1: the worst. Yes, So they inject genetic material into your

115
00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,920
Speaker 1: own cells, hijack your cell's machinery, and your cell essentially

116
00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,000
Speaker 1: makes more viruses for the virus.

117
00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,240
Speaker 2: All of these things have nucleic material, right, this DNA

118
00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,000
Speaker 2: or RNA or something, and all these things. People argue

119
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,799
Speaker 2: about whether viruses are alive or not, but like they

120
00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,240
Speaker 2: have this code inside of them. That's what they all

121
00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:26,839
Speaker 2: have in common.

122
00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,400
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's right. And so when the first person

123
00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,080
Speaker 1: suggested that what's happening with what ended up being called

124
00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,839
Speaker 1: prion diseases is that it's actually a protein that is

125
00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,279
Speaker 1: essentially replicating, not by sort of copying itself using genetic

126
00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,560
Speaker 1: material like you would expect, but is essentially touching other

127
00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:51,000
Speaker 1: proteins and making those other proteins infectious. That was a

128
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,560
Speaker 1: bit controversial for a while because that's not how we

129
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,600
Speaker 1: usually see infections transmitting in any of the ways that

130
00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:57,640
Speaker 1: we sort of understand this.

131
00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,479
Speaker 2: Are you underplaying it a little bit, a bit controvert, Like,

132
00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:02,680
Speaker 2: wasn't that sort of laughed out of the room for

133
00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:04,520
Speaker 2: a while, People are like, that's impossible.

134
00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,520
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, no, we were all very skeptical. It took

135
00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,720
Speaker 1: a while for that to be widely accepted.

136
00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,040
Speaker 2: And for those of us who are not biologists or biochemist,

137
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,920
Speaker 2: remind us what you mean when you say protein. You're

138
00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,880
Speaker 2: using in a technical sense, not like chicken breasts or

139
00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,600
Speaker 2: tofu on top of your salad. When your server asks

140
00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,080
Speaker 2: if you'd like to add protein? You mean something about

141
00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:25,360
Speaker 2: the chemical structure, right.

142
00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I mean chicken breast is made of proteins.

143
00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,559
Speaker 1: So your genetic code contains the information that your body

144
00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,800
Speaker 1: needs to make proteins. And proteins are strings of amino acids,

145
00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,280
Speaker 1: and they essentially make up all of your body, and

146
00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:43,560
Speaker 1: they help your chemical reactions happen, and they are ubiquitous, and.

147
00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,440
Speaker 2: They're incredible little molecular machines. Right, they do stuff. They

148
00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:49,720
Speaker 2: come from the DNA and then they fold into these shapes.

149
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,440
Speaker 2: They're like little robots, right, They're amazing. The engineering here

150
00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:53,920
Speaker 2: is just.

151
00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,360
Speaker 1: Astounding, delicious in your salad and fantastic in your body.

152
00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,840
Speaker 1: So the listener to know about prions. So these are

153
00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,600
Speaker 1: protinaceous infectious particles, is the fancy way of sort of

154
00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,840
Speaker 1: saying it. And there's a couple different ways that proteins

155
00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,360
Speaker 1: can transmit disease. So one of them is that they're

156
00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,200
Speaker 1: sort of infectious in the way you might usually think

157
00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,160
Speaker 1: of infectious material. So, for example, if you eat meat

158
00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,320
Speaker 1: that has the mad cow prion in it, and you

159
00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,440
Speaker 1: consume that meat, that prion can then move around your

160
00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:29,160
Speaker 1: body and cause your proteins to become abnormal. So that's

161
00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,640
Speaker 1: infectious in a way that we sort of are used

162
00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:33,160
Speaker 1: to thinking about infectious material.

163
00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,200
Speaker 2: And just to make sure I'm following, when you say

164
00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,400
Speaker 2: prion is a protinaceous infectious particle, it's still just a protein.

165
00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,320
Speaker 2: Is just like a weird protein in a particular shape, right,

166
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:44,880
Speaker 2: It's not like it's turned into a particle the way

167
00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:45,679
Speaker 2: we talk about it.

168
00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, forget the physics, man, forget the physics.

169
00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:49,760
Speaker 1: We're in bio world.

170
00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,000
Speaker 2: Right now, I'm listening to biologists talk about particles, but

171
00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:54,959
Speaker 2: it has nothing to do with particles. That's great.

172
00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,200
Speaker 1: I don't know whether particles in biology are more confusing

173
00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,480
Speaker 1: than particles in physics, but either we're gonna buddle through.

174
00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,720
Speaker 2: All right. So you can get these in your body

175
00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,280
Speaker 2: and they can turn some of your proteins into preon's.

176
00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,000
Speaker 2: What's another way that you can get one of these

177
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:09,960
Speaker 2: horrible diseases.

178
00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,800
Speaker 1: Another way you can get one of these horrible diseases, unfortunately,

179
00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,000
Speaker 1: is if you end up with a mutation in your

180
00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:19,160
Speaker 1: own genes, and then your genetic code now produces a

181
00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,480
Speaker 1: protein that folds in a way it's not supposed to fold.

182
00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,000
Speaker 1: And usually when you get this heritable gene that has

183
00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,840
Speaker 1: this bad mutation, you don't start making these weird proteins

184
00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,600
Speaker 1: until you're a little bit older, like sixties or more.

185
00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:34,640
Speaker 1: Funny story, I was talking to a neighbor the other

186
00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,320
Speaker 1: day who said something to the effect of, oh, well,

187
00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,440
Speaker 1: when I'm talking to young people, they're not so interested

188
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,520
Speaker 1: in this, And I was like, oh, I'm interested. And

189
00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,120
Speaker 1: then I realized that he didn't mean me exactly. He

190
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,120
Speaker 1: could tell I was interested because I was one of

191
00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,319
Speaker 1: the old people, and he was talking about other people. Anyway.

192
00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:50,880
Speaker 2: Did I ever tell you about the time I was

193
00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,880
Speaker 2: accidentally c seed on an email where they were looking

194
00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,680
Speaker 2: for a young ish professor to take on some roll

195
00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,600
Speaker 2: and somebody said whites and is he youngish anymore? I'm

196
00:09:59,600 --> 00:09:59,960
Speaker 2: not sure?

197
00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,760
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, nice. Oh I thought I

198
00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:05,440
Speaker 1: just had a little gray in my hair. And someone

199
00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,440
Speaker 1: told me I was rocking the salt and pepper look,

200
00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,160
Speaker 1: which was very nice. But that was the first time

201
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,960
Speaker 1: I realized that I had transitioned to salt and pepper. Anyway,

202
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,800
Speaker 1: you and I are aging, but hopefully we don't have

203
00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:15,760
Speaker 1: this mutation.

204
00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,280
Speaker 2: All right, So this mutation just means that you produce

205
00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,120
Speaker 2: a protein through the normal mechanism of like DNA RNA protein,

206
00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,840
Speaker 2: But it's one of these bad proteins. Yes, you said

207
00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,320
Speaker 2: that it doesn't fold the way it's supposed to. Is

208
00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,160
Speaker 2: it that it doesn't fold the way the DNA tells

209
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,600
Speaker 2: it to, or that it folds in a way that's damaging.

210
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,920
Speaker 1: It folds in a way that's damaging if you have

211
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,680
Speaker 1: this mutation. Mutations often result in changes in an amino

212
00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,120
Speaker 1: acid in the sequence that makes up a protein, and

213
00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,160
Speaker 1: when you have a change in that amino acid, it

214
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,760
Speaker 1: can change the shape of the protein. So the protein

215
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,280
Speaker 1: might be doing what the genetic code told it to do,

216
00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,120
Speaker 1: but now it's folding up in a configuration that's bad

217
00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,480
Speaker 1: for you and can go and cause other proteins to

218
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:54,920
Speaker 1: do it too.

219
00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,080
Speaker 2: All right, So you can either get through from outside

220
00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,840
Speaker 2: the body or you can just have your genetic code

221
00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,920
Speaker 2: do these terrible things. Is that it or is there

222
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:04,240
Speaker 2: another thing we have to worry about.

223
00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,600
Speaker 1: The third way is what they call spontaneous. So you've

224
00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,680
Speaker 1: got proteins, and actually, something that I learned while doing

225
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,680
Speaker 1: this research is that sometimes your proteins will change shape

226
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,680
Speaker 1: and then go back to their normal shape. Wow, while

227
00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,160
Speaker 1: they're in your body, and it doesn't seem efficient, just

228
00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,920
Speaker 1: like be consistent, man, But so I guess sometimes they

229
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,040
Speaker 1: will sort of get out of their configuration and when

230
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,000
Speaker 1: they go back into their configuration, they don't go back correctly,

231
00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,959
Speaker 1: and so now they've got this bad shape. And once

232
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,040
Speaker 1: you've got either the heritable or the spontaneous version of

233
00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,800
Speaker 1: these prions, they start to act infectious. So they go

234
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,280
Speaker 1: around and they make other prions abnormally shaped as well.

235
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,240
Speaker 2: Weird. That's incredible that one protein can turn another protein bad.

236
00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,319
Speaker 2: It's like the bad influence protein.

237
00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,000
Speaker 1: This spontaneous prion thing. This is like stay up at

238
00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,360
Speaker 1: night worrying about what all your proteins are doing. I'm

239
00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,520
Speaker 1: not worrying about my kids anymore. I'm worried about whether

240
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,559
Speaker 1: or not my proteins are behaving. But I'm sure it's fine.

241
00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,720
Speaker 2: This is a whole fascinating area though. Protein folding. We

242
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,520
Speaker 2: describe it as if it's like DNA RNA protein, but

243
00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:09,559
Speaker 2: it's very complicated.

244
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:09,720
Speaker 4: Right.

245
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,400
Speaker 2: You build this sequence of amino acids and when they fold,

246
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,640
Speaker 2: they're like settling into a lower energy state. They're like

247
00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,679
Speaker 2: relaxing into it. And it's really hard to know what

248
00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:20,600
Speaker 2: that state is. You can look at the DNA code.

249
00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,280
Speaker 2: It's not easy to predict the configurations of proteins that

250
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,559
Speaker 2: come out of that sequence. There was a huge result

251
00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,520
Speaker 2: recently alpha fold where people were able to predict these

252
00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,920
Speaker 2: things very well using AI. Really an incredible breakthrough. People

253
00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:34,160
Speaker 2: have been working on that for decades.

254
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is fantastic. Let's go into one real example.

255
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:45,160
Speaker 1: Fritz Feld Jacob disease. So sorry about my pronunciation, apologize

256
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:45,760
Speaker 1: ahead of time.

257
00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,040
Speaker 2: I'm not even going to correct you because I enjoy

258
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:49,640
Speaker 2: listening to your mispronunciations.

259
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,800
Speaker 1: Okay, do you know how to pronounce it correctly?

260
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,720
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure it's quartz failed yakup disease, but I

261
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:55,640
Speaker 2: like the way you said it.

262
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,480
Speaker 1: Oh okay, well thanks, I appreciate that.

263
00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,280
Speaker 2: Especially like the way you like tiptoe through it in

264
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:00,280
Speaker 2: a terrified.

265
00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:03,520
Speaker 1: But from now on, it's CJD.

266
00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:04,320
Speaker 2: Okay.

267
00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,520
Speaker 1: So for CJD, what happens is that in older people

268
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,080
Speaker 1: sometimes you sporadically get a protein that folds up incorrectly.

269
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,559
Speaker 1: Now you've got this abnormal form. And I read a

270
00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,960
Speaker 1: bunch of papers that suggested that as various vertebrates age,

271
00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,840
Speaker 1: our proteins are sort of more likely to fold the

272
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,120
Speaker 1: wrong way because aging is a real pain in the

273
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,600
Speaker 1: rear end. And then in ten to fifteen percent of

274
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,120
Speaker 1: the cases, this has to do with a genetic mutation

275
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,560
Speaker 1: that's giving the protein essentially bad instructions, and every once

276
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,600
Speaker 1: in a while, in a rare case, you can get

277
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,520
Speaker 1: it transmitted. So, for example, if you get a cornea

278
00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,840
Speaker 1: transplant from somebody who has CJD, then you can get CJD.

279
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,800
Speaker 1: So it's important to screen for this kind of stuff,

280
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,120
Speaker 1: and so unfortunately, once you get it, we don't have

281
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,480
Speaker 1: any treatment, and usually the symptoms get worse quite quickly

282
00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,040
Speaker 1: by the time the symptoms are identifiable, and according to

283
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,079
Speaker 1: the CDC website, it causes a person's brain to break

284
00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,600
Speaker 1: down or stop working normally, which I'm sure we can

285
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,640
Speaker 1: all is not a way we would like our brains

286
00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:02,320
Speaker 1: to be described.

287
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,120
Speaker 2: No, I do not want my brain to turn into

288
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:04,720
Speaker 2: a smoothie.

289
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,840
Speaker 1: No, no me either. I think most people initially started

290
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,240
Speaker 1: hearing about prions when they learned about bovine sponge of

291
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:18,520
Speaker 1: worn and cephalopathy BS bad cow disease, and this showed

292
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,440
Speaker 1: up in cows. Turns out cows were getting it from

293
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,120
Speaker 1: one another because we were feeding cows cow parts. And yeah,

294
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:24,800
Speaker 1: bad idea.

295
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:26,840
Speaker 2: Cannible cows annible cows, right.

296
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:28,680
Speaker 1: And you might remember from when we were feeding pigs

297
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,720
Speaker 1: pig parts that that was bad for the transmission of

298
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,800
Speaker 1: trick and ella. So in general, it seems like it's

299
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,320
Speaker 1: a bad idea to feed animals animal parts, although I

300
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,520
Speaker 1: do feed my chickens chickens sometimes. Oh I know, maybe

301
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:41,400
Speaker 1: I'm asking for it.

302
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,960
Speaker 2: That's horrible. Yeah, there's something really creepy about that. I

303
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,520
Speaker 2: don't know why I like chickens eating pork whatever, chickens

304
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,080
Speaker 2: eating chickensoh.

305
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,040
Speaker 1: They don't seem to mind. They love the nuggies. They

306
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,120
Speaker 1: love the chicken nuggies. All right?

307
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:56,920
Speaker 2: What kind of sauces do they like to like? The

308
00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:58,960
Speaker 2: dip it? Are they into the barbecue?

309
00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,320
Speaker 1: No, they don't. We have the dexterity for that. I

310
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,600
Speaker 1: don't know. If you've seen chicken claws, they're not real good.

311
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,000
Speaker 1: They can scratch and that's about it.

312
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,560
Speaker 2: All right. So we know that getting these preons is bad.

313
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,640
Speaker 2: You get these terrible diseases and they spread from body

314
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,680
Speaker 2: to body, and even if you eat like meat that's

315
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,240
Speaker 2: been cooked. We're used to like cooking something to kill it.

316
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,360
Speaker 2: But if you cook a preon, is it then better?

317
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,640
Speaker 2: Is it like denatured or can you still get it

318
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:22,800
Speaker 2: from cooked meat? You know?

319
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:24,600
Speaker 1: As far as I can tell. One of the things

320
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,600
Speaker 1: about these preons that is incredible is that they're really

321
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,240
Speaker 1: resistant to things like cooking, and so you can cook

322
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,720
Speaker 1: your burger and if it had bs, there's still some

323
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:35,880
Speaker 1: chance that you could get it.

324
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:37,960
Speaker 2: I heard that even if you irradiate these things, like

325
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,400
Speaker 2: zap them with radiation, they're super dup or robust, which

326
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,440
Speaker 2: is one reason that they're able to spread from one

327
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,360
Speaker 2: to the other. And so it's like really hard to

328
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,200
Speaker 2: kill a preon. Like when they do brain surgery in hospitals,

329
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,240
Speaker 2: they just throw away everything that touched the brain because

330
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,080
Speaker 2: it might have a preon in it, and you do

331
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:55,520
Speaker 2: not want that stuff to spread.

332
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,080
Speaker 1: We are so stink and lucky that preon diseases are

333
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,680
Speaker 1: not more common. Thank your lucky stars everybody.

334
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,000
Speaker 2: So then let's get to the heart of the listener's question,

335
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,840
Speaker 2: right he's asking about the fundamental mechanism, like how does

336
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,480
Speaker 2: this happen? You were talking about one preon turning ou

337
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,360
Speaker 2: a normal protein into another preon. Do we know how

338
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:13,960
Speaker 2: that happens?

339
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,640
Speaker 1: If by we you mean Katrina, the answer is yes.

340
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,800
Speaker 1: Let me quickly summarize the three problems that you need

341
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,800
Speaker 1: to understand to understand prions. So, one, an abnormal protein

342
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:26,600
Speaker 1: is made. This is pretty much what we've been talking about,

343
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,320
Speaker 1: the various ways that you start getting these abnormal proteins.

344
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:34,000
Speaker 1: Problem too, is that the prion starts causing more prion

345
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,360
Speaker 1: proteins to be made, so it interacts with the healthy

346
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,400
Speaker 1: proteins in the area and starts turning them into bad proteins.

347
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,640
Speaker 1: And then problem three is that these proteins start clumping together,

348
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,560
Speaker 1: and it's these clumps that start causing problems. So the

349
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,680
Speaker 1: brain has trouble clearing these clumps out. So the listener

350
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,800
Speaker 1: wanted to know the details for problem too. How does

351
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,880
Speaker 1: one prion cause another protein to start misfolding and becoming

352
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,120
Speaker 1: another one of these sort of infectious prions. And I

353
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,640
Speaker 1: was so annoyed because I found so many papers, and

354
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,600
Speaker 1: every paper was like, Okay, here's how we're gonna illustrate

355
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,280
Speaker 1: how it works. And they were like, the normal protein

356
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,120
Speaker 1: is a circle and the abnormal protein is a square,

357
00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,040
Speaker 1: and the circle becomes a square, and then the square

358
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,359
Speaker 1: interacts with other circles and turns them into squares. And

359
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,920
Speaker 1: I was like, that doesn't really explain what's happening.

360
00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:21,240
Speaker 2: That's just a cartoon.

361
00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,960
Speaker 1: It's just a cartoon. How does the circle turn the

362
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,920
Speaker 1: squares in? Anyway? Eventually I threw my hands up and

363
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,600
Speaker 1: we were so happy that we know a biochemist. And

364
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:36,080
Speaker 1: so Daniel, go ahead and introduce your amazing wife.

365
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,920
Speaker 2: That's right, Katrina actually has a PhD in biochemistry protein

366
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,639
Speaker 2: folding DNA all this kind of interaction. She did her

367
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,719
Speaker 2: PhD on like how proteins cut DNA and interact with it.

368
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,080
Speaker 2: So she like has her head around all of this stuff.

369
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,479
Speaker 2: So I asked her, Hey, can you explain to us

370
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,879
Speaker 2: how this actually happens? How two proteins come together and

371
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,439
Speaker 2: both end up bad? Like why don't they both end

372
00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,280
Speaker 2: up good? You know, all these arguments are like template this,

373
00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,240
Speaker 2: template that, Like why did they both end up bad?

374
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,359
Speaker 2: So I asked her on the cash last night, and

375
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,399
Speaker 2: here's what she had to say. Hey, Katrina, so how

376
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 2: does a prion turn another protein into a preon?

377
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,159
Speaker 5: So proteins are just these chains of amino acids, and

378
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,439
Speaker 5: each block has different likeness for water, like some of

379
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,080
Speaker 5: them like to be near water, some of them hate water.

380
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,520
Speaker 5: The balance of those things forces the protein into a

381
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:30,760
Speaker 5: certain shape, so each protein makes a really unique shape. However,

382
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:35,359
Speaker 5: some proteins have more than one stable state, so they

383
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,600
Speaker 5: might be happy in a slightly different shape. And what

384
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,400
Speaker 5: preons do is they force the protein into an alternative shape.

385
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,280
Speaker 2: I think that's the bit we want to dig into.

386
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,439
Speaker 2: When two proteins come near each other, why does the

387
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,440
Speaker 2: preon force the good one into a preon shape rather

388
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,560
Speaker 2: than the good one, forcing the preon into a good shape,

389
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 2: why does the preon win?

390
00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,280
Speaker 5: And that shape is usually one that's a little hard

391
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,560
Speaker 5: to get itself out of, so they get stuck in

392
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:07,200
Speaker 5: that direction. So basically, if a protein forms the preon shape,

393
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,679
Speaker 5: which it usually does at a lower rate than the

394
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,639
Speaker 5: healthy correct shape, but if that happens, then when another

395
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:18,480
Speaker 5: healthy protein gets near it, it gets peer pressured essentially

396
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:23,680
Speaker 5: into forming that alternative but like disastrous and like disease

397
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:29,920
Speaker 5: forming alternative shape. This happens for certain sequences of proteins,

398
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:36,320
Speaker 5: and they often have repeat zones in them that are

399
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,359
Speaker 5: like making it easier for them to collapse into this

400
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,800
Speaker 5: unhealthy state. And so I can think of a couple

401
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,800
Speaker 5: cases of proteins that misfold where it's driven by having

402
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 5: these like repeat zones. So that would mean that when

403
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:55,119
Speaker 5: the healthy protein touches the preon protein, imagine a lego

404
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,440
Speaker 5: clicking into a lego, it like clicks it together and

405
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,399
Speaker 5: forces it into this unhealth the alternative but stable state.

406
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,480
Speaker 5: All of the proteins are not like one hundred percent

407
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,879
Speaker 5: folded all the time. They're kind of like wiggling around

408
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,000
Speaker 5: a bit, and it makes it so they can kind

409
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 5: of like explore which shape they're going to sit at,

410
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,919
Speaker 5: and the preon shape is harder to get out of.

411
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,920
Speaker 5: Once you get collapsed into that preon state, you're like

412
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:20,919
Speaker 5: a goopy mess.

413
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,359
Speaker 2: So the two come together, but the good protein is

414
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 2: still flexible about its actual shape, while the preon is

415
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,480
Speaker 2: stuck into this deep local minimum. It's very stable configuration.

416
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,919
Speaker 5: Yes exactly, And so if you get stuck in that

417
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 5: deep local minimum, it's harder to get back out of it,

418
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 5: and if another protein gets nearby, it gets tempted into

419
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 5: that goopy minimum. And molecularly, what I mean is that

420
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 5: a region of the misfolded of the bad shape that

421
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 5: the preon is forming will have mirrored sites, like it'll

422
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,640
Speaker 5: have interactions with the other healthy protein that will force

423
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,479
Speaker 5: it into that shape, and then it stays there because

424
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 5: it's a local minimum that's hard to get out of.

425
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 2: I see. So it's true that when the two proteins

426
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 2: sort of try to fit together, they're more likely to

427
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 2: end up similar. But the bad one, the preon one,

428
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 2: is harder to pull out of than the normal one

429
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 2: is to pull into the bad state, and so they

430
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:20,639
Speaker 2: both end up in the bad state.

431
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 5: That's my understanding.

432
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 2: So my takeaway from this is that it relates to

433
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 2: the conversation we were having earlier about how proteins fold. But

434
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 2: it's not easy to predict, like how a protein is

435
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 2: going to fold, and it turns out sometimes they can

436
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 2: fold in multiple different ways. And the preons are special

437
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 2: and weird because they're like a very strong fold, like

438
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 2: it's hard to get them back out of that. For

439
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 2: people who like to think about optimization and minimum it's

440
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,119
Speaker 2: like a very deep local minima. They're stuck in it

441
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 2: and it's extraordinarily hard to get them out, which is

442
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 2: why cooking or radiation will not bust these guys. And

443
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,879
Speaker 2: if you have a preon meets a non preon, then

444
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 2: it's much more likely they both end up as preons

445
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 2: because it's harder to get the preon out of the

446
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,120
Speaker 2: preon configuration than it is to the normal protein out

447
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 2: of its normal configuration.

448
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and to build on that a little, often, when

449
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 1: your body ends up with a protein that's shaped the

450
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 1: wrong way, you send in what are called proteases, and

451
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 1: they essentially break the protein into pieces that are easier

452
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 1: to clean up and remove from the body. But these

453
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,679
Speaker 1: proteases can't get into these clumps or into these abnormally

454
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,159
Speaker 1: folded proteins, and so rather than getting cleared out, they

455
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 1: remain and they start clumping and they cause problems.

456
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 2: Amazing. Biology is incredible. What boggles my mind is all

457
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,439
Speaker 2: this stuff is happening all the time, and it mostly

458
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 2: just works. I go about my day, I drink coffee,

459
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 2: I think about particles, and inside all these little proteins

460
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 2: and these molecular machines are doing their thing. Thank you,

461
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 2: little biology particles.

462
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 1: When you work great, We thank you. But understanding how

463
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 1: proteins get abnormal and start clumping up is important, we

464
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 1: think for understanding neurodegenerative diseases because sort of similar things

465
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 1: happen where proteins start accumulating and clumping and causing problems.

466
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: So you've got amyloid beta in TAO for Alzheimer's disease,

467
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 1: alphas and nucleon for Parkinson's disease, and huntington for Huntington's disease.

468
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 1: So sort of understanding what's happening here is a very

469
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 1: active research field.

470
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 2: All right, well, thank you for sending this question. In

471
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 2: NIL it turns out to be a perfect union of

472
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 2: our interests because not only is it biology and does

473
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 2: it have the word particle involvement it. We also had

474
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 2: to bring in Katrina sob.

475
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 1: Bum and the whole whitesn Research Institute with the adjunct

476
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: faculty included.

477
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 2: That's right, Well, let's hear from Nile if we answered

478
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 2: his question or just confused him further.

479
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 3: Hi, Kelly and Daniel, thank you for this response. You

480
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 3: definitely answered my question. I think the most surprising revelation

481
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 3: for me is that the reason prions are infectious has

482
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 3: more to do with chemistry and the molecular structure of

483
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 3: proteins rather than some other sort of active biological process.

484
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 3: It was a really interesting discussion and super enlightening, although

485
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 3: I do have to agree with Kelly that now knowing

486
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 3: there's such a thing as spontaneous prem formation, this will

487
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 3: keep me up at night. Thank you again.

488
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 2: Okay, we're back and we are answering questions today from

489
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 2: listeners who think deeply about the nature of space and

490
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 2: time and whether their brain is infected by the meat

491
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 2: they eat. So now we have a question from Owen

492
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 2: and his daughter about concerts near black holes.

493
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 6: Hi, Daniel and Kelly, I was curious my daughter plays violin,

494
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 6: and if.

495
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 3: She were to take a trip to a really deep.

496
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,239
Speaker 6: Gravitational well like close to a black hole or a

497
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 6: neutron star, and recorded herself playing violin and then brought

498
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 6: the recording back with the time dilation cause a key change,

499
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 6: would it make the frequency higher or lower? Or when

500
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 6: we played it back here on Earth would it be

501
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 6: the same.

502
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: Wow, that is a fantastic question. All right, let's start

503
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: by talking about what is time dilation?

504
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, time dilation one of my favorite topics and very

505
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 2: confusing aspects of special relativity. And one thing that's really

506
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: important to understand about it is that there are two

507
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: types of time dilation that work differently. It's important to

508
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 2: keep them separate, especially for this question. One is the

509
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 2: one we hear about a lot when you're like in

510
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 2: a rocket ship moving fast. And this is velocity based

511
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 2: time dilation, which you can summarize very easily just by

512
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: saying moving clocks run slow. So if Kelly has a

513
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 2: clock in her ship and she's moving very fast relative

514
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 2: to me, I see her clock moving, so I see

515
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 2: her clock going slow. Kelly doesn't see her clock moving,

516
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 2: it's right in front of her. She sees it running

517
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 2: at the normal time, and that's the right time. I mean,

518
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: it's east coast time, which is whatever I prefer, best

519
00:25:59,040 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 2: coast time.

520
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 1: I think a world runs up East coast time, my friends.

521
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 1: But all right, moving on.

522
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 2: That might be true, Yeah, that might be true. High

523
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 2: But the cool thing about this kind of time dilation

524
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 2: is that it's symmetrical. Right. I see Kelly's clock is

525
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 2: running slow because I see her moving quickly, but she

526
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 2: sees my clock moving, which means she sees my clock

527
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: running slowly. So we both see the other person's clock

528
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 2: is running slower than ours. So it's symmetric, which is beautiful,

529
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 2: but it also feels contradictory because you have this instinct

530
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 2: to say, hold on a second, whose clock is really

531
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 2: running slower? Right? Because our accounts are discrepant, And the

532
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 2: answer is there's no single true answer. There is no authority,

533
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 2: there's no single clock in the universe. Both of our

534
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 2: accounts are correct, and you can't actually link it together

535
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 2: into a complete understanding. It's just that everybody sees things

536
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 2: differently from different perspectives.

537
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, so now we've got our minds wrapped

538
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: around velocity based time dilation. What is the other kind.

539
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 2: The other kind is gravity. You don't have to be

540
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 2: moving fast to have your clock run slow. You just

541
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 2: have to be near a massive object like the movie

542
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 2: Interstellar where they land on Miller's planet, which is super

543
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 2: duper massive. When you're in space that's curved, time runs slower. So,

544
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 2: for example, if you're standing on the surface of the Earth,

545
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 2: your clock will run slower than a clock that's in

546
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 2: orbit or run the Earth, or out in deep space

547
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: where there's less curvature. You're further from masses, so your

548
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 2: clocks run faster.

549
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: So your clock would run much slower on Jupiter relative

550
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: to Earth.

551
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, And it would run much slower on the

552
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 2: surface of the Sun, and much much slower near the

553
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 2: event horizon of a black hole. And the amazing thing

554
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 2: about this one is that it's not symmetric. Everybody can

555
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 2: agree on it. Like if I'm in orbit with the

556
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 2: clock and Kelly's on the surface of the Earth or

557
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 2: the clock, we will both agree that her clock is

558
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 2: running slower. I see her clock running slower, she sees

559
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 2: my clock running faster. This is the only time in

560
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: relativity when you can see something speed up. Mostly you're

561
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: just seeing time slow down, But with gravitational time dilation,

562
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: you can see things speeding up. So if you stand

563
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 2: near the edge of a black hole, for example, you

564
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 2: see the time in the to the universe go faster,

565
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 2: and like fast forwards you to the future.

566
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: So if you could live near a black hole, could

567
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 1: you live forever? Is this what biologists have been looking for?

568
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: Your time would still run normally, right, so you would

569
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 2: still live eighty years or whatever in your time that

570
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 2: might last eighty thousand years or eighty million years in

571
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 2: the outside universe. So it's a way, definitely to fast

572
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: forward to the future, but not to live infinitely long.

573
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 1: Physics keeps disappointing.

574
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 2: Sorry on, Okay, So those are the two kinds of

575
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 2: time dilation that we need to understand to answer Owen's

576
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 2: question about a daughter with a violin. But this one

577
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: more piece we need, which is red shifting. Right. All

578
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 2: this changing of time has consequences, like it changes how

579
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: long things seem to be, because it affects when people

580
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: measure the front and the back. And we can dig

581
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: into the details of length contraction another time. But if

582
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: you change the way clocks run, you also change the

583
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: frequency of waves. Right, the wave length of a wave. So,

584
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: for example, if light is admitted to you by an

585
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: object that's moving away really really fast, it lengthens the

586
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: wavelength of that light. It red shifts it. So things

587
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 2: that are moving away from you get red shifted, things

588
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: that are near black holes get red shifted. One way

589
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 2: to think about it is that it's just all about

590
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: time dilation. Clocks are slowed down and so the waves

591
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 2: get slower and redder. If you'll watch a spaceship approach

592
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,239
Speaker 2: a black hole, it's not going to look normal to you.

593
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 2: It's going to get redder and redder and redder, and

594
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: then eventually become invisible.

595
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,479
Speaker 1: We're near a black hole, so we're talking about gravity dilation,

596
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: and we are thinking about waves because sound is a wave,

597
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: and we've just established that waves get spread out near

598
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: a black hole because of the gravity dilation. Okay, I'm

599
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: on the same page.

600
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: Let's get to Owen's question, but there's a few versions here.

601
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: Imagine that Owen is far away from the black hole

602
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 2: and his daughter is near the black hole, and she's

603
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 2: playing the violin and he's watching and he's listening. So

604
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: what's going to happen, Well, her time is going to

605
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: be slowed down for him. So he's going to see

606
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: her or moving and thinking and drinking and breathing in

607
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 2: slow motion, and the light and sound that come from

608
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: her will have longer wavelengths. So he will watch a

609
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: video and he will see her moving in slow motion,

610
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,719
Speaker 2: and all the light will be redder than it normally is.

611
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: If it's really dilated, it'll be invisible. It won't be

612
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: in the visible spectrum anymore, and it'll happen slower, so

613
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: the key will be lower and be like in the

614
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: old days when your tape deck is running out of

615
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: battery and everything zones low.

616
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: You said, key is key the same thing as frequency.

617
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: These music words go past me.

618
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: Ooh, I'm so not an expert in that. But the

619
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: wavelength will get longer and the frequency will go down,

620
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: which I think means a lower key.

621
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: Okay, that's how I imagine whale sound.

622
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 2: But he's not asking about that scenario. He's asking about

623
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: what happens if a recording is made near the black hole. Right,

624
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: So now let's do another scenario. Let's say Owen is

625
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 2: next to the black hole, also with his daughter. Right,

626
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: she's next to the black hole. She's playing the violin

627
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: he's there right next to her, what does he see?

628
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 2: Everything looks normal to him because she experiences it normally

629
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 2: and he's there with her. So yes, somebody far away

630
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 2: will see them both in slow motion, but from their perspective,

631
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 2: everything is happening normally. The outside universe is fast forwarding.

632
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: So if he's there with her, everything seems normal.

633
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: Okay, But what if they're recording it?

634
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 2: Yeah? Right? I love these versions of the questions. So

635
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 2: if instead of Owen, you have Owen's video camera and

636
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: it's there with her, and it takes a video of

637
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: what's happening near the black hole, it's going to record

638
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 2: what Owen would have seen, which is a normally occurring

639
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 2: violin performance. Right, You then take the video somewhere else.

640
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: The video hasn't changed. You play it back on your

641
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 2: TV at home. You're going to just play back a

642
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 2: normal recording, and so everything is going to look normal

643
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: on the video because it was taken near the black hole,

644
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 2: where everything seems normal to the people near the black hole.

645
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: Now, are you sure that's right? Because that sort of

646
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: matches my intuition, which usually means it's wrong. So because

647
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: I'm really good at this, But all right, I'll go

648
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: with it.

649
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: There are other weirder versions of this question, you know,

650
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: that depend on exactly how the information is encoded. Like

651
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: we're talking about literally sending waves from the black hole

652
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: and interpreting them literally. If instead you have computers and

653
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 2: they're coming this in binary, then they can avoid the

654
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: time dilation effects. There's some subtle wrinkles there if you've

655
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: word the question differently, But the way he asked it,

656
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: the answer is that the concert would appear normal if

657
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 2: it was filmed near the performers.

658
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's go ahead and see what Owen thinks

659
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: of this answer and if there's any follow up questions.

660
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 3: Wow, thanks for answering my question. You guys, you know

661
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 3: I think you nailed it.

662
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

663
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: All Right, so we wrapped up a question that was

664
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: beautiful playing music in deep space near a black hole,

665
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: and now we are descending into the depths of biology

666
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: to discuss magots. All right, what does Jonathan want to

667
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: know about maggots?

668
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 4: Hi, Kelly, I remember reading about medical maggots five or

669
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 4: ten years ago. As I recall, it was an experimental

670
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 4: procedure back then, but showed real promise in the fight

671
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 4: against drug resistant bacteria? Where are we today on this

672
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 4: Can I stop worrying about superbugs now? Thanks?

673
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 2: I thought we had already reached maximum grossness on this episode.

674
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 2: I didn't realize we were just in the foothills of

675
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: grossness and now we're climbing to the peak.

676
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,479
Speaker 1: Oh, Daniel, we have just begun.

677
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 2: All right, take us there, Kelly. What do we need

678
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 2: to know about medical maggots?

679
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: All right? So, apparently for centuries, folks have realized that

680
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: if you find maggots in someone's wounds, those people with

681
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: maggots in their wounds tend to have faster healing wounds

682
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: than people who don't have maggots in their wounds. So

683
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: you might be thinking it would be better to not

684
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: have maggots in my wounds, But if you want your

685
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: wound to heal quickly, apparently it would be good to

686
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 1: have it. And this bit of disgusting wisdom was known

687
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: by Genghis Khan, the Mayans, and other indigenous peoples, according

688
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: to videos I watched on YouTube from reputable sources like

689
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: the BBC.

690
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: You know, I think that's incredible because I think it's

691
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,439
Speaker 2: often included as like things we did before we really

692
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 2: understood science, you know, leeches and maggots and drilling holes

693
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 2: in people's heads and praying to the gods and whatever.

694
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 2: But actually this is another example of sort of pre

695
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 2: modern science experimental understanding. Right, you're saying, people like looked

696
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 2: at the data and they're like, maggots are gross, but

697
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 2: they do seem to help people. Maybe we should use maggots.

698
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 2: I mean, isn't that scientific. Isn't that hypothesis forming and

699
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 2: drawing conclusions from data.

700
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: Well, so my understanding is that for a long time

701
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: folks noticed that there seems to be this association, but

702
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: they might not have had control over, for example, the

703
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: fly life cycle to be ab to purposefully infect people

704
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: with maggots. The first documented instance of someone purposefully placing

705
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: maggots in someone's wound was in the American Civil War.

706
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,919
Speaker 1: And you know, can you imagine being the first person

707
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: where someone's like, no, really, these maggots are gonna do

708
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: you wonders.

709
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 2: But and this is gonna be great for a biology

710
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: podcast in a couple hundred years.

711
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: Trust us, that's right. It'll all be worth it when

712
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 1: Kelly and Danie'll get to gross out over there.

713
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: Here's the big payoff, all right, that's right.

714
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: And then an orthopedic surgeon in World War One named

715
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: William Behar started applying maggots to wounds that wouldn't heal

716
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: at Johns Hopkins University for a patient community of children. Wow,

717
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: And from that, medical maggots kind of took off. In

718
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, you get medical maggots that are very

719
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: common in America, Canada, Europe. Hospitals open in sectories so

720
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: that they can have medical maggots on hand whenever you

721
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: need them, and you can order them from a company

722
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 1: called Surgical Maggots out of Pearl River, New York.

723
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 2: And so other than looking gross and being gross, what

724
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 2: are these maggots doing in these wounds?

725
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: So the first thing they're doing that's helpful is what's

726
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: called debridement. So essentially they are removing the dead and

727
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: dying tissue in the wound. So they are secreting and

728
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: excreting stuff that starts breaking down the dead tissue and

729
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: it makes it into sort of like a slurry. And

730
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: then the maggots suck up that slurry.

731
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yam, yum yum yum, yeh yum yum. Yes, I'm

732
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: trying to get into this I'm like, let's go the

733
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 2: non gross route. Let's just like really marinate in the biology.

734
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: Ganny. You No, I love the attitude and I appreciate

735
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: the energy and the motivation you bring to these discussions.

736
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: You're really trying and I like that.

737
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, let's get a nice big ice cube.

738
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 2: We'll have like a you know, a slurry cocktail. This

739
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: sounds fantastic. You can get into anything, So start.

740
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: Having themed drinks for some of these episodes, or themed

741
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: meals like pasta for the parasite episodes. All Right, the

742
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: stuff that if they release that starts breaking down the

743
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: dead tissue tends to leave the living tissue alone. And

744
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: so if you have a wound that's got a combination

745
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: of dead and living tissue and you'd like to remove

746
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: the dead stuff so you can specifically start working with

747
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: helping the living stuff to recover. These are pretty helpful.

748
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: They do it in sort of surgically precise ways, it seem,

749
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: so that's benefit one. Benefit two is that some of

750
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: the stuff that they're excreting and secreting has antimicrobial properties,

751
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: so it's killing some of the bacteria that could be

752
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: infecting the wounds. And while they're slurping that stuff up.

753
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 1: They're also consuming the bacteria that could be infecting a wound,

754
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: and you have like a thousand yard stare right now.

755
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 2: I'm just wondering, like why maggots would do this, Like

756
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 2: I mostly see maggots in garbage or whatever. That they

757
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 2: didn't evolve in garbage, right, They must have evolved like

758
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: eating feces and rotting carcasses and stuff. Is that why

759
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 2: they're good at this? Because they evolved basically eating dead

760
00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 2: flesh or near dead flesh.

761
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: So the horror truth is that there's lots of flies

762
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 1: in this world, and they have lots of different life cycles,

763
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: and so the carrion flies, what happens is that the

764
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: mom comes along and she lays her eggs in dead tissue,

765
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: and those eggs hatch and you get maggots that have

766
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: to go through a couple different life cycles. And those

767
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 1: maggots are competing with the bacteria who want to break

768
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: down the dead stuff, and in some cases those bacteria

769
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: release toxins that might not be good for the maggots.

770
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: And so being able to consume the bacteria is good

771
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: because you're accidentally going to consume some of them anyway,

772
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: but also killing some of them remove some of the

773
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: competitors in your food.

774
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 2: So this is exactly what they evolved to do, right

775
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: to I'll compete the bacteria and to eat all the

776
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: dead stuff. Why don't they also eat the living flesh? Like,

777
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 2: why do they leave that alone? That's awfully convenient.

778
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: I'm going to preface this with I'm spitballing because you

779
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: asked me lots of great questions. I don't necessarily always

780
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: know the answers too, So my first guess is that

781
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: mostly what these guys are doing is the moms are

782
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: laying their eggs on stuff that is like totally dead,

783
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: totally dead, and every once in a while they opportunistically

784
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: find an open wound with some dead skin and they

785
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: lay their eggs in there too, And so they are

786
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: specialists on the dead stuff and are less interested in

787
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: the living stuff. There's also a bit of a trade

788
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: off I think between being able to infect and break

789
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: down living tissue which has like an immune response and

790
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: might try to fight back, versus just going after dead

791
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 1: tissue which isn't going to fight back. That's my best guess.

792
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, so they're lazy. They don't want to

793
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 2: work hard. They just go for the easy dead stuff,

794
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 2: and that amazingly works perfectly for our use case.

795
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,399
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, and I mean I hate dipterance. So they

796
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: go through a couple stages in the dead stuff. They

797
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: have a wandering phase where they fall off of the

798
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: dead thing and then bury underground, and that's thought to

799
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,439
Speaker 1: maybe help them avoid drying out or keep them safe

800
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: from predators. So, like you know, crows will go around

801
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: and they'll find dead insects in carcasses and eat them up,

802
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 1: so they kind of and then they hatch as adults

803
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: and they go off to complete their life cycle. Okay,

804
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 1: so that's all kind of complicated, So you can imagine

805
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,879
Speaker 1: that growing flies in a lab could be a little complicated,

806
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: especially if you want to make sure that when you

807
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 1: grow those flies they're grown under sterile conditions. So you

808
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: don't want flies walking around on some dead, infected roadkill

809
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 1: and then getting added to your wound because that would

810
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: be pretty gross. So while this was popular in the

811
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, it was difficult to you know, cheaply provide

812
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: maggots for wound debreadment and to find ways to contain them.

813
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: So you definitely don't want your leg maggots or your

814
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: foot wound maggots to escape. And then now they're like

815
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: free in the hospital and they can like go and

816
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: spread whatever diseases you had on your foot to somebody else.

817
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: And it's also gross to have flies around, so it

818
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: was kind of a pain. It was expensive because.

819
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 2: The magots literally sprout wings and try to fly around.

820
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 2: That's what they do. They'd call them flies, right, So that's.

821
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, that's right. They're going through their insect stages.

822
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: They transform it or metamorphose into adults. And yeah, then

823
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 1: they go when they fly around and they're super gross.

824
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 2: Does that mean that if you have a wound with

825
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 2: maggots on it, there's some like container that captures the flies.

826
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 2: Then you have like dead flies on your wound you

827
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 2: have to clean off all the time.

828
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 1: We're going to get there. I was looking on the

829
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 1: website of companies who grow medical maggots. But I'm almost there.

830
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: I'm almost there, I promise. So in the nineteen forties,

831
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: antibiotics become widespread, and you know, quite frankly, if I

832
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: had the choice between someone sprinkling maggots on my legs

833
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 1: or giving me you know penicillin medication I can pop

834
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: in my mouth. I'm going to go for the penicillin.

835
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 2: But is that just because of the size. Like you

836
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: can see maggots and they seem gross because penicilla is

837
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 2: like a fungus and it's like also growing and attacking

838
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 2: the bacteria. If the fungus was like bigger, if you

839
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 2: had like mushrooms growing out of your wound, would that

840
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 2: be as gross as maggots.

841
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 1: Well, they're not like spreading fungus like you spread butter

842
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 1: on a piece of bread, like onto your leg.

843
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of marmite now, I'm like, mmm yum.

844
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:05,720
Speaker 5: Yeah.

845
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's like a pill that you take WHIRLI or

846
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 1: you know, maybe it could be like a cream or something.

847
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: But you know, the maggots they escape sometimes you can

848
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: feel them moving around, and you know, I get that

849
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: it's gross.

850
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 2: We should have a whole episode on the biology of grossness,

851
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 2: like why do we think some things are gross and

852
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 2: other things? Where does that come from? Anyway back to maggots.

853
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 1: So that would involve a lot of evolutionary psychology. I

854
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: think I'm totally down for tackling that. But so in

855
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: the nineteen forties, antibiotics come along, that solves a bunch

856
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: of the problems. Maggots fall out of favor because they

857
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: were kind of a pain in the rear. End. In

858
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties nineteen nineties, antibiotic resistance starts becoming a

859
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: big problem. People have non healing wounds and it's starting

860
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 1: to get harder and harder to kill the bacterial infections

861
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: that are in those wounds. So medical maggots come back

862
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: in style, and in two thousand and four, the Food

863
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 1: and Drug Administration in the United States actually approves maggots

864
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,439
Speaker 1: as a medical device to treat things like diabetic foot

865
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: ulcers that won't heal. And there's also some evidence that

866
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: for some sort of limb issues, maggots can help with

867
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: debridement and help with antimicrobial stuff, and in some cases

868
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: people can keep their limbs because of what a great

869
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 1: job the maggots did.

870
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 2: So people are still using maggots today.

871
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, So maggots are making a comeback.

872
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 2: Amazing.

873
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: They're not incredibly widely used, and based on the surveys

874
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: that I read, that is mostly from what everybody calls

875
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: the quote yuck factor end quote, And I totally get that.

876
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: Apparently like, sometimes you can feel them moving around a little,

877
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: but mostly what they're doing is moving around in dead tissues,

878
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: so you don't usually feel it a lot. But here's

879
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 1: what happens. They sprinkle some little maggots they're like a

880
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: couple millimeters long in the wound, and then they have

881
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 1: really fancy bandages that cover up the wound and keep

882
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,439
Speaker 1: the maggots in the wound and don't let them get out.

883
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: There's a company called Monarch Labs, for example, that sells

884
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 1: the Maggot Megapack, maggot t shirts and the le Flap

885
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: du jore case dressing.

886
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: So.

887
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 1: It contains the maggots while still letting the maggots breathe.

888
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: And what happens is the maggots spend a couple days

889
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: in their larval form going around eating dead tissue, and

890
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:21,919
Speaker 1: then when they get to the stage where they would

891
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: usually fall off and try to bury themselves in the soil,

892
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 1: you remove the dressing, you collect all of the maggots,

893
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: and then you just take them away. And the maggots

894
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: have cleaned off the dead tissue, they have fought some

895
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: of the bacterial infections, and there's fairly good evidence that

896
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: actually outcomes are pretty good. Here's where some of the

897
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,760
Speaker 1: nuances of biology come in, because the answer is never clear.

898
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 1: Some studies do find that the maggots do less well

899
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:56,800
Speaker 1: against particular species of bacteria. Sometimes the results are contradictory

900
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: between studies, suggesting that you don't always get consistent results

901
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: for obvious reasons. Pharmaceutical companies are trying to figure out

902
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: if you can not have the maggots but still have

903
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: the antimicrobial properties. So they're trying to understand what kind

904
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 1: of compounds the maggots are secreting and excreting. And there

905
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 1: is a drug called seratusin which was it sounds like

906
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: derived from maggot secretions excretions, and it inhibits twelve strains

907
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: of MRSA, which is that multi antibiotic resistance Staphylococcus aureus.

908
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: Was that right?

909
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 2: Sounds right?

910
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:33,240
Speaker 1: Yeah? Nice?

911
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 2: Is there some tech bro out there making like tiny

912
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 2: robotic maggots that like walk around and eat dead flesh

913
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 2: and ooze out this.

914
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: Medicine maybe eventually, who knows what the future holds mag bots.

915
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:46,399
Speaker 2: That's a billion dollar idea right there.

916
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: Somebody call me, yeah, well you should patent it while

917
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: you're ahead. So there's other kinds of compounds that have

918
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: been secreted that help with different kinds of bacteria. So

919
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 1: folks are working on this, and there have been some

920
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: studies on wounds in children that we're having difficulties sort

921
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: of healing up, and they had multi drug resistant pseudomonous

922
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: originosa in them, and they had been treated with things

923
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: like antibiotics, but the bacteria were resistant, and they treated

924
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,479
Speaker 1: the kids with maggots, and the maggots really did seem

925
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: to help. They still did some other follow up treatments,

926
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: but the maggots seemed to be like the thing that

927
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: helps these diseases turn the corner, and after thirty four days,

928
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: these infections no longer had bacteria.

929
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 2: Bo. Yeah, amazing, good job maggots.

930
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. But so our listener wanted to know if they

931
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 1: can stop worrying about superbugs because we're all going to

932
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 1: be using maggots. There's a couple problems with that. So,

933
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: first of all, maggots tend to be used for a

934
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: pretty narrow range of problems. So diabetic foot ulcers, pressure

935
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,879
Speaker 1: ulcers basically wounds on the exterior of your body that

936
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: are having trouble healing, and we have problems with antibiotic

937
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: resistant bacteria insider a body two And you know, drinking

938
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: a slurry of maggots isn't going to help us with that.

939
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 2: And it's super weird to have maggots like eating a

940
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 2: wound on the outside of your body. I can't imagine

941
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 2: having maggots that crawl around inside you.

942
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 1: I don't think they'd survive for very long, but you'd

943
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: feel them wiggling to their death and it would be unpleasant.

944
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:08,879
Speaker 2: Yeah.

945
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 1: I also imagine that if we started using maggots to

946
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: the same extent that we use some of our current antibiotics,

947
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: it wouldn't surprise me if resistance arose to whatever the

948
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: maggots were producing as well. And so I don't think

949
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: this is a panacea, but it is a solution that

950
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: seems to be working pretty well for certain types of

951
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 1: non healing wounds.

952
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 2: Amazing. It's incredible how many times evolution has found the

953
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 2: answer to a problem that we have. You know, it's

954
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 2: just like, give it a billion years and so many mutations,

955
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 2: they will explore the whole landscape and find an incredible solution.

956
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: Yes, this field is called Darwinian medicine. I believe where

957
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: you go to nature for some answers. I found a

958
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: doctor named doctor Ronald Sherman, and I loved reading his

959
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 1: papers because he was so excited about the maggots. So

960
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: I want to wrap this up on a quote from

961
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 1: the conclusion of one of his two thousand and nine papers.

962
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: He said, medicinal maggots are as precise in their debreedment

963
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: as a highly skilled microsurgeon, as attentive to their host

964
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: wounds as the most dedicated wounds care nurse. It is

965
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: no wonder that they have found their way into the

966
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,720
Speaker 1: hearts and wounds of so many.

967
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 2: So hearts and wounds is the title of his autobiography.

968
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,399
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you for your enthusiasm, doctor Sherman, and let's

969
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: go ahead and reconnect with Jonathan and see if we've

970
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: answered his questions.

971
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 4: Yes, indeed, you have answered my questions. Thank you. It

972
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 4: looks like what was old is new once again.

973
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 2: All right, thank you very much everybody for sending in

974
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,399
Speaker 2: your questions. We'd love to hear your questions on the pod.

975
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 2: Please don't be shy. Send them to us to questions

976
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 2: at Danielankelly dot org.

977
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 1: Can't wait to hear from you. Daniel and Kelly's extraordinary

978
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: Universe is produced by Iheartreading. We would love to hear

979
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: from you.

980
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 2: Really would. We want to know what questions you have

981
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 2: about this extraordinary universe.

982
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions

983
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: for future shows. If you contact us, we will get

984
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: back to you.

985
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us

986
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 2: at Questions at Danielankelly dot org.

987
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: Or you can find us on social media. We have

988
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 1: accounts on x, Instagram, Blue Sky and on all of

989
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: those platforms. You can find us at D and K Universe.

990
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 2: Don't be shy right to us