1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: time to venture into the vault for a classic episode 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This one originally published 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: in December of and uh, I hope you like wizards. Yeah, 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: that's right. This is the first of two episodes that 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: dealt with the enigmatic Dr d Dr John d who 8 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: was quite an interesting character. He advised Queen Elizabeth, sought 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: communion with angelic being's advocated British expansion, and it just 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: generally plunged the depths of human knowledge in an age 11 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: of great change. Uh. He's a figure that we discussed 12 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: in our recent episodes on the Vontage Manuscript and uh 13 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: and it may well come up again, like very a 14 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: very notable historic figure, no doubt. We hope you enjoyed 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: this classic episode about Oh wait this episode, I'm not 16 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: on this one. Just to warn you. This is you 17 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: and Christian, right, This was an episode I did with Christian. 18 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: Not like you need a warning. I'm just I'm about 19 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: to disappear. fALS warning Joe fans. Uh, He's not going 20 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: to be present in this episode. But it sounds like 21 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: a really good one. Welcome to stuff to blow your mind. 22 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: From how stuff works dot com. Thy character must have 23 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: the names of the five angels written in the midst 24 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: of sigellum, a myth graven upon the other side in 25 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: a circle in the midst whereof must the stone be 26 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: which was also brought wherein thou shalt at time to 27 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: behold privately to thyself the state of God's people through 28 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: the whole earth. Go and thou shalt receive terry, and 29 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: you shall receive sleep, and you shall see. But walk 30 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: and your eyes shall be fully opened. One thing, which 31 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: is the ground and element of thy desire, is already profited. 32 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: And out of seven thou hast been instructed of the 33 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: lesser pot most perfectly. Hey, welcome to stuff to blow 34 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: your mind. My name is Robert lamp and I'm Christian Sager. 35 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: And from the beginning there you may think that we were, 36 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, performing a ritual of some kind and 37 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: trying to summon an angel, And you would be half right. 38 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 1: That's right. That is uh. That is a quote from 39 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: the writings of the legendary, the mysterious, the influential Dr 40 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: John d. The topic of both episodes this week. Uh, 41 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: and he is a fascinating character and elizabethan mathematician, UH, conjurer, 42 00:02:54,280 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: possibly a spy cryptographer. The list goes on first and 43 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: foremost a mathematician, but it gets it gets a lot 44 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: more complicated than that. Is you try and piece together 45 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: this man, the world he lived in, and what he 46 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: really believed in. D Is is one of those characters 47 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: that we've We've been talking about doing an episode on 48 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 1: him for a while now, and when we dove into 49 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: the research, we we really realized, Okay, this needs to 50 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: be two episodes. And the way that we've decided to 51 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: split these episodes categorically is this first episode is going 52 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: to be more grounded in the sexy, occult magical stuff, 53 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: and the second episode is going to be grounded in 54 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: his scientific endeavors and his state craft. Um. There's so 55 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: much about him that I learned doing this, and there's 56 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: so many different interpretations too. He's just this fascinating individual. UM. 57 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: If you're unfamiliar with him, I guess the best way 58 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: to describe him is that he was one of the 59 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: leading intellectuals of his time. It may not sound like it, 60 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: given some of the things we're gonna say in these episodes, 61 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: but he had magical interests. But despite that, he brought 62 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: developments to England and cartography, navigation, mathematics, astronomy and cryptography, 63 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: and his reputation in alchemy and astrology totally influenced the 64 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: court of Queen Elizabeth the first. He was no doubt 65 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: influential in that respect. Yeah, he he he had a 66 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: rapport with with Queen Elizabeth. Uh. Some historians go as 67 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: far as to say that they were friends, and you 68 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: do get the idea that there may have been as 69 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: much of a friendship as was possible between the Queen 70 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: of England and uh, you know, essentially a common born 71 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: intellectual who dabbled in magic. Right yeah, um, we'll say 72 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: this later, but he did think of himself as her Merlin, 73 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: which is really fascinating and comes into play. So the 74 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: I said that we're going to split these episodes up, 75 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: but one thing that you have to keep in mind 76 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: is that the magic and the science overlap a lot too. Um, 77 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: and so even in things like when he's advising them 78 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: on national matters, on expanding the English Empire, he's still 79 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: thinking in magical terms, like he's Merlin and she's King Arthur, right, 80 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: He's he's a guy who, like I said, it's it's 81 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 1: essential to keep the mathematics and in mind. But it's 82 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,239 Speaker 1: not like he's a guy who, all right, I'm gonna 83 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: do my job here, which is science or mathematics, and 84 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: then in my free time I'm going to do a 85 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: little sorcery and in and then also I have this 86 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 1: advising gig with the Queen. He saw it all connected. 87 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: He saw it as part of a single tapestry of cosmos. 88 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: And so there's a note I just want to provide 89 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: here before we really dive in deep, which is I 90 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: was reading an article in History Today that came out 91 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: earlier this year by a woman named Katie Burkewood, and 92 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: she says, keep in mind, the main sources for the 93 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: story of Dee's life are all his own. Um so 94 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: mainly what we're looking at. What we didn't look at 95 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: this We looked at people's interpretation of those primary sources. 96 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: That's true, But mainly his diaries, which cover the period 97 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: from fifteen seventy seven to sixteen oh seven, so about 98 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: from his age of fifty until he died. Those were 99 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 1: a big source of his uh. I guess life history, 100 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: and this also coincides with the period of time where 101 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: he was up to his most fantastic endeavors, so keep 102 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 1: that in mind. His early years were documented in his 103 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: own autobiographical account, which was written in fifteen ninety four, 104 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: and what he was trying to do is explain his 105 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: past to the crown, basically to Queen Elizabeth, because he 106 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: was trying to secure a royal position or an appointment 107 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: that would secure him a regular income. Uh. And another 108 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: source is the books that were recovered from his stolen collection. 109 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: So we're gonna talk probably a lot throughout the course 110 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: of these episodes about he had this infamously huge library 111 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: and it was ransacked at one point, and some of 112 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: those books have been recovered, uh. And he wrote extensive 113 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: annotations in their margins, so some uh D scholars, I guess, 114 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: go and find these copies and read those annotations to 115 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: try to learn more about him. Apparently much of that 116 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: library now resides with the Royal College of Physicians, I 117 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: think in England. Yeah, so it's it's kind of difficult 118 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: to tell truth from fiction in some of these cases. 119 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: And Robert and I did our best when we read 120 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: something that sounded really strange to corroborate it with multiple sources, 121 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: and we we did find that, But then again, like 122 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: those sources were all mainly coming from D's own writings, 123 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: that's right there. There. Of course a number of wonderful 124 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: books out there on D and his work, some books 125 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: with with with different focuses than others. Uh. One book 126 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: that I kept looking at was the one by Benjamin Wooley. 127 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, The Queen's Conjure. Uh, excellent book, very readable. 128 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: I recommend that to to anybody. But yeah, this is 129 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: a guy that is really, in many ways a near 130 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: unbelievable character, truly stranger than fiction. Like if if Alan 131 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: Moore wrote him into a story, you chalk it up to, oh, well, 132 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: that's just Alan Moore's wondrous imagination and use of fictional 133 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: and historic and pop culture hybridization. The same if he 134 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: had appeared in an umberto Echo book, it might be 135 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: tempted to think, oh, this is a fantastic creation, this 136 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: Dr D. But but no, he this was a real 137 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: real man. He lived, he wrote, and I'm not sure 138 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: there has been anyone quite like him since. We we 139 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: see parallels and some of the figures that we've covered 140 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: on the show, and we'll and and are planning to 141 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: cover such as John c. Lilly or Jack Parsons, but 142 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: but D kind of stands alone. Yeah, And it's funny 143 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: that you mentioned Alan Moore because one of the sources 144 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: that I went to was a History Channel special that 145 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: aired in two thousand and two and it was narrated 146 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: by Brian Cox. It's all about John D's life, and 147 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: Alan Moore is one of the go to experts that 148 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: the summoned. You know, they cut to him every once 149 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: in a while and you hear that out in more voice. 150 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: But he's he really knows his stuff about d um 151 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: I imagine because Alan Moore is really into sort of 152 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: like the history of English magic and stuff like that 153 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: outside of his own fiction. But um, yeah, he the 154 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: first first of all, I recommend, like, if you're really 155 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: into John D. Go check out this this video. I 156 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: watched it on YouTube, and uh, some of it's hilarious 157 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: and some of it's really illuminating. But there's um they 158 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: like do that thing that the History Channel used to 159 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: do where they like re enact scenes of a person's 160 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: life with actors and they have like kind of makeshift 161 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: low budget like sets and stuff, so like shadowy scenes 162 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 1: if somebody dressed as John D shuffling papers around sort 163 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: of yeah that thing, or like him looking into a 164 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: crystal ball, or him just walking across the field. Yeah. 165 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 1: So I think probably the best way for us to 166 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: to really first introduce you to John D is let's 167 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: just do a broad stroke overview of his life. You know, 168 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: we've given you sort of the the two sentence summary 169 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: of who John D was, but we'll start with his 170 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: life and then we'll really dive in deep into the 171 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: magic stuff. Yeah, for with a guy like this, and 172 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 1: I feel like this is the best approach. We'll give 173 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: you the broad strokes and then we'll go back in 174 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: and discuss the areas that we we we have time 175 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: to discuss in these episodes. Yeah, Yeah, And I just 176 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: want to say to like, keep in mind that there 177 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: are people whose like entire career is writing about this guy. 178 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: So what we cover in like two two and a 179 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: half hours and podcasts, maybe you may be out there, 180 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: you may know some stuff about D and be like, well, 181 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: why didn't you you cover that? There's only so much 182 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: we could do here, So we really tried to condense 183 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: it down to fit the show. All right, well here 184 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: we go, let's kick it off with July. John d 185 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: is born in London, England. Yeah, and my first question 186 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,719 Speaker 1: is who raises a guy like John D? Like, how 187 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: does he how does he end up like this? So 188 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: his father, Roland, was a merchant of fabrics and textiles 189 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: and he worked for King Henry the eighth. In fifteen 190 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: fifty three, his father was actually indicted and imprisoned in 191 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: the Tower of London, presumably because he had ties to 192 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: Protestant reformists and sympathizers of the late King Edward. So 193 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of This is a theme that goes 194 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: on throughout D's life, is the political struggles back and 195 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: forth between the Catholic and Protestant Church. Yeah, that's definitely 196 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: going on in the background the whole time. Now fifty two, 197 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: John d enters St. John's College at Cambridge. Yeah, and 198 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: so from what I read at the time, the curriculum 199 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: for such a college included something called the trivium, which 200 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: is grammar, rhetoric and logic. And once you master those 201 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: things you get your what would be your your bachelor's basically, uh, 202 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: and then the quadrivium is what you study for your masters, 203 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: and that's astronomy, geography, music and mathematics. Now okay, again 204 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: this is self reported from his own thing that he 205 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: wrote to the Queen later in life. But D says 206 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 1: that while he was there he only slept four hours 207 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: a night, so all he could do is study. So 208 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: on one hand he was essentially applying for a position 209 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: in this but also as as as we discussed more 210 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: about John D, I don't really doubt this for a second. 211 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 1: He seems like the kind of guy who who may 212 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: have only slept four hours a night, he can constantly 213 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: consume information. So in fifty five he really he receives 214 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: that bachelor's degree in Arts and readership. Seven he takes 215 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: his first scientific learning excursion of the Low Countries of 216 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: continental Europe, and this becomes important later on because he 217 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: spends an increasingly increasing amount of times there on various excursions. 218 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: Eight he gets his master's degree from Cambridge studying mathematics 219 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: and navigation, and then fifteen forty eight to fifteen fifty 220 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: one his second learning excursion to the Low Countries and 221 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: uh in particular. On this trip he studied under mathematician 222 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: cartographers pezro Nonez Gema for Silius, Abraham Ortelius and Gerardis Mercator, 223 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: as well as through his own studies in Paris and elsewhere. Yeah, 224 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: and these the second set of travels, these benefited England. 225 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: What he would do is he'd share his findings from 226 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: these travels with Queen Elizabeth's associate. So for here's an example, 227 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,719 Speaker 1: in fifteen sixty two he discovered the works of Trithemius, 228 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,479 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about this later. He introduced 229 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,959 Speaker 1: the court and subsequently Elizabeth to the study of modern 230 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:03,319 Speaker 1: cryptography through this, ultimately changing I guess war games, right 231 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: with the way that they used cryptography. Yeah, yeah, well, 232 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: we'll definitely get into that in this into the second episode. 233 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: But this was a time when when coded messages were 234 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: were really important. There was a mayor a matter of 235 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: life and life and death. Now, as you mentioned, at 236 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: this time, he is he's he seems to have his 237 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: sight set on official, on an official position with the crown, 238 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: and in doing so, he turned down a mathematical professorship 239 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: at the University of Paris, and he turned down a 240 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: similar position at the University of Oxford that was in 241 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: fifty one and fifty four, and then he returned to England. 242 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: He went to court and there he offered mathematical science 243 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: instruction to courtiers, to navigators, just generally trying to make 244 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: himself useful to the court. He served as a consultant 245 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: and an astrologer to, among others, Queen Mary the first. Yeah. 246 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: So before he worked for Mary's court, he had a 247 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: patron who was the Duke of Northumberland, and this guy 248 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: tried to place his own utter in law on the 249 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: throne before Mary was placed there. He was charged with 250 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: treason and executed. And this is one of the first 251 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,119 Speaker 1: of many times indeed's life where he had less influence 252 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: because he had sort of like followed the wrong person. 253 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: And he has these periods of like waxing and waning 254 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: influence over the English monarchy. Yeah, getting involved in the 255 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: machinations of of the court. Here, um, who's in and 256 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: who's out, Which which stars rising, which one's falling. So 257 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: then in fifteen fifty five, this is when he's jailed 258 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: on the charge of being a conjuror. He was soon 259 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: released thereafter. But let's let's pause for a second and 260 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: try to figure this out. So the thinking here is 261 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: that Queen Mary's examiners were the ones who jailed him, 262 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: possibly with charges of conspiring with her sister Elizabeth, who 263 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: was arrival at the time, and he was allegedly casting 264 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: horoscopes for Queen Mary and her family without their permission, 265 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: and because the predictions were bad for Mary, it was 266 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: considered to be practicing witchcraft against the crown. The story 267 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: goes like this that while Elizabeth was under house arrest, 268 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: she asked d to perform her in Mary's horoscope, and 269 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: so he did, and it predicted that Elizabeth would have 270 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: a long reign and that Mary would die, which you 271 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: know kind of happened, uh, And this is what landed 272 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: him in jail. Now after this, after he gets out 273 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: of jail, he's placed under the charge of Edmund Bonner, 274 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: who is the Bishop of London. And in one of 275 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: these writings he actually refers to Bonner as his quote 276 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: singular friend, and there's some dispute about like are they 277 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: actually friends or is this like his sarcastic term for 278 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: this guy who's like kind of his jailer um. But 279 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: after this point, all of these written works included sections 280 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: defending his reputation from slander. So he was well aware 281 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: that his mixture of astrology and magic and conjuring with 282 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: science and mathematics and statesmanship was under scrutiny, and not 283 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: for the last time. So in eight he published an 284 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: Afrotistic Introduction which presented his his own views on natural philosophy, philosophy, 285 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: and astrology. And then fifteen fifty eight, the same year, 286 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: this is also when the rule of Queen Elizabeth the 287 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: First begins. Yeah, and so the rumor here again this 288 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: is from d Zone writings, is that when Elizabeth took power, 289 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: she asked d to choose her coronation date based on astrology. 290 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: Now who knows. I mean, yes, there's evidence that he 291 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: was jailed performing horoscopes for her previously, so why wouldn't she. 292 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: But then, you know he's the one claiming this stuff, 293 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: and we know that later on in life he's just 294 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: constantly trying to gain favor of the court by sort 295 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: of but he's he's bolstering his resume. So yeah, he 296 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 1: becomes the scientific and medical advisor to the Queen and 297 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: uh and we're in the mid fifteen sixties. He establishes 298 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: himself at more Lake near London, where he builds a laboratory, 299 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: the largest private library in England more than four thousand 300 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: books in manuscripts, and he, uh, you know, we'll we'll 301 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: describe some more of the settings here. But it sounds 302 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: like a fabulous place. And he would he would invite 303 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: other scholars to come in and and use his books 304 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: if they needed to look something up. And of course 305 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: he was constantly in communication with other people, Like it 306 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: was I was reading just yesterday about how he had 307 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: these correspondence, uh, series of correspondence with with Chico Brahi, 308 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: the really yeah, the famed astronomer. Yeah, famously lost his 309 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: nose in a sword fight, another fabulous character at the time. Yeah, 310 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: we should totally do it, Tycho Brahe episode. Um. Yeah. 311 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: So the other thing about this to note, just for 312 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: context about the library, we say four thousand books, and 313 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 1: some of you are like, y, I got four thousand 314 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: books in my house, right. Well, here's context. He had 315 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: two thousand, six seventy menu scripts in that collection. Cambridge 316 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 1: University at the time only had four hundred and fifty 317 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: one manuscripts and Oxford University only had three hundred and 318 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: seventy nine. So this was considered a massive library at 319 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: the time. Like, if you're thinking about this, like uh, 320 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: going back to the Grimoire episode that you and I 321 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: did a couple of years ago, right, like, like, these 322 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: are not just like pulp books. They're not like soft covers, right, 323 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: Like some of these are written on parchment or their 324 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: palamp sests. Right, So I mean he's got like a 325 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: serious collection here in The books are unique too. Yeah. 326 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: In many cases, these would be books where you're wanting 327 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: to read them. You might ask arounding and you'll find out, oh, 328 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: well Dr D has a copy of that. You should 329 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: go ask him. Maybe you'll get to look at it. 330 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: Here's another interesting thing I wanted to point out as well. 331 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: There's no evidence that he ever earned a doctoral degree, 332 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: but he was always referred to as Dr D. Kind 333 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: of interesting. Now. In a fifteen sixty four he published 334 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: the Hieroglyphic Monad, in which he offered a single mathematical 335 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 1: magical symbol as the key to unlocking, uh, the unity 336 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: of nature. Yeah, and this, I mean, I guess we'll 337 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: maybe like post this on the landing page or something 338 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: we we actually shared or you shared it on Facebook yesterday, 339 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: kind of teasing the audience, say this is what we're 340 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: working on. One person got it and they referred to 341 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,479 Speaker 1: him as the d um But it kind of looks like, 342 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: how do you pronounce that that German industrial band e' 343 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 1: Stretton's nine streads into a new Boton. Yeah, it does. 344 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: In fact, I had to look up a new Boton's 345 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: logo just to make sure that they weren't too similar, 346 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 1: because I'm like, I never thought about this before, but 347 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: you know, they're two distinct symbols, but they are reminiscent 348 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 1: of one another. Yeah, very much. So for some reason, 349 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: I also find it looks like it kind of looks 350 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: like it could be a character from a SpongeBob cartoon. 351 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: I don't know. It does have like an anthropologic quality 352 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: to it, of like a head with arms and legs 353 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: and then like devil's horns. Yeah, or it makes me 354 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: think of the the aliens from Slaughterhouse Five for some reason, 355 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: the ones that was like an eye on a hand. 356 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: I can't remember the name of them, but at any rate, 357 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: this was his his Lands and Slaughterhouse five. Yeah, there's 358 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,479 Speaker 1: a there's an alien zoo for humans. I forgot all 359 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, okay, I just think about the horrors 360 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: of so In fifteen seventy he created the first English 361 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: translation of Euclid's Elements and added an influential preface that 362 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: offered a powerful manifesto unquote the dignity and usefulness of 363 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: the mathematical sciences, and he seems to certainly have highly 364 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,719 Speaker 1: regarded mathematics is the key to understanding the natural world, 365 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: but also believed in the value of the occult to 366 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: unlock the deeper mysteries of the universe. And again, his 367 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 1: ideas of the occult and mathematics are kind of intertwined. 368 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: This is definitely going to be a theme that we 369 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: returned to over and over again in these episodes. Mathematics 370 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: is like the through line for him, whether he or 371 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: odd he's trying to talk to angels or if he's 372 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: just trying to plot out maps for people to discover 373 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: the Northwest Passage. Yeah, I feel like his mind was 374 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: inherently mathematic. If you if he had lived in our age, 375 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: I feel like you would undoubtedly be a hacker or 376 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: a high level program in addition to to whatever else 377 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: he was into. The History special compared him to Stephen Hawking, 378 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: and I thought that was an interesting comparison. Although I'm 379 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: still I'm still trying to I don't know if there's 380 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: anybody alive that that really has these two things together. 381 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: You're right, Lily and Jack Parsons are similar. But I'm 382 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: really trying to rack my brain for somebody who's like 383 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: a really influential intellectual but also dabbles in the occult right, 384 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: that's still very much an outsider in his interest and 385 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: speaking of being an outsider in his interest three three 386 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: through fifteen eighty nine, in order to unlock the deeper 387 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: mysteries of the universe, the sought communication with angelic entities 388 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: with the aid of convicted counterfeiter towards turn to occult sensation. 389 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,959 Speaker 1: Edward Kelly, who's a very complex character and of himself, 390 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: will get into Kelly. So so these two end up 391 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: running around conducting seances in England, Poland and Bohemia and 392 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: have this rather volatile partnership. So it's like something out 393 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: of a reality TV show, like oh, you know how 394 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: like every time on the show, on this show, when 395 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: when we do some of these historical characters are like, oh, 396 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: this would make a great amc oh yeah show. The 397 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: Dr D Edward Kelly's show would be amazing because it 398 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: would be like them constantly like conniving behind one another's backs, 399 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: and then sitting in a room looking into a crystal ball, 400 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: talking to angels, and then like trying to figure out 401 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: a sleep with one another's wives. Yeah, this is another 402 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: situation where d described Kelly as a friend and it 403 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: makes me wonder, like what it makes me question his, uh, 404 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: his criteria for friendship because he talks about Kelly who 405 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: was arguably a scoundrel and may have been conning him 406 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: half the time at least. And then there's Queen Elizabeth, 407 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: who you know, there's no way they were really friends. 408 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 1: They were as you know, like I say, as much 409 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: of a friendship as you could have with the Queen 410 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: of England. Uh, that bishop I mentioned earlier. Yeah, and 411 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: then his his his the warden of his prison essentially 412 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: at the time. So I don't know, I don't know 413 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: if he ever really got friendship exactly, but it's difficult 414 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 1: in life. So Kelly and him, they they end up 415 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: going to essentially Poland and then Bohemia, conducting their seances 416 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: all along the way, and then they come back. Yeah 417 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: that kind of falls up, comes back. Yeah, their their 418 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: relationship falls apart. He returns to England nine to try 419 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: and try and put things back together. He finds his 420 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: home vandalized, his library has been ransacked. Uh, and he's 421 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: also come back to in England that is less tolerant 422 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: of his ideas, increasingly less tolerant. And then the Bubonic 423 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: plague strikes and kills pretty much everybody in his family, 424 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: including his wife and five of his eight children. So 425 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: he's utterly devastated. He's lost his library, he's lost his family. 426 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: He doesn't have as much influence as he used to, 427 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: so in fift his friends raised money for him and 428 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: interceded on his behalf with Queen Elizabeth, you know, just 429 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 1: trying to land him in the right place, right, So 430 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: she appoints him warden of Manchester College. And and this 431 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: is from what I was reading, this is not an 432 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: ideal place for him to wind up. He's not, you know, 433 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: he's constantly being undermined minded by other individuals there. He 434 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: doesn't have a lot of clout, but he has a 435 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: good way to shuffle him off and get him. So 436 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: he doesn't really have any influence over her court, but 437 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: he still feels, you know, he's cashing a paycheck. And 438 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: in sixteen o three, Queen Elizabeth dies and James the 439 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: First takes to the throne and provides no support for D. Yeah. 440 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: So so for some context, James the First was fervent 441 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: against witchcraft and he personally oversaw the torture of women 442 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: who were accused of it. So he's not going to 443 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: be particularly fond of John D and his angels crying 444 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: and astrology and alchemy. And then in December of eight 445 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: D dies following what is described as years of poverty 446 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: and isolation. However, it so even for someone like D, 447 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,239 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like poverty and isolation for him is 448 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: you know, quite the bottom of the barrel poverty and 449 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 1: isolation like this. A lot of this is him being 450 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 1: forced to sell off a lot of his prize possessions, 451 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,479 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Maybe not the proudest period of 452 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 1: his of his life. But I didn't read anything to 453 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: indicate that he was on the streets. Yeah, so I mean, 454 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: like to get an indication. I was looking at pictures 455 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: of um, what Mortlake looked like his estate and where 456 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 1: it is now today. I think there's like apartments right 457 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: along the River Thames, and uh it's you know, by 458 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: all accounts like it was a huge house. Uh. He 459 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: still had a lot of things. I don't think he 460 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: was going hungry. I just don't think he was wealthy 461 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: or had influence over the aristocracy the way he might 462 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: ride in the past. Um, now here's this is really interesting. 463 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: There's also evidence that he didn't actually die in December, uh, 464 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: and that he three months later was when he died 465 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: in the following March in the London home of an acquaintance. 466 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 1: So get ready out there, conspiracy theorist, because I'm sure 467 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people out there who are like, oh, 468 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: John D found the Philosopher's Stone and his immortal and 469 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,479 Speaker 1: uh is still with us today or something, or these 470 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: are fake accounts of his death, you know, stuff like that. 471 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: But the amazing thing about D is it's all everything 472 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 1: is already unbelievable enough with how to even going into 473 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: the conjecture of conspiracy theory. Uh, though there's a lot 474 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: of fun to be had there as well. Um. Hey, 475 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: on that note, we're gonna take a quick break, and 476 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: when we come back, we are going to break into 477 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: the spirituality of John D and ultimately into his occult practices. 478 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: So it's important to remember that that D was born 479 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: into an age and a place of Christendom. So yes, 480 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: everyone still murdered each other every year over their beliefs, 481 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: and much of this entailed conflicts of Protestants versus Catholics, 482 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: the church versus heretics, and so forth. Uh, you really 483 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: had to go quite rustic or quite esoteric in order 484 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: to find alternative modes of belief that you could, you know, 485 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 1: actually embrace all of the stranger ideas that D entangled 486 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: himself with astrology, angelic communication, magic, etcetera. These were all 487 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: still connected to the culture of Christianity into the essentially 488 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: like the mythos of Christianity, I guess you'd say. And 489 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of evidence to suggest that D was 490 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: a devoted Christian his entire life, though certainly in a 491 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: challenging time for the faithful, which I guess it always 492 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: is uh, And he was. He was not afraid to 493 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: explore ideas and writings that others deemed danger is to 494 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: the faithful. And it's also worth noting here that like 495 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: a guy like the who you know you can say 496 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: was a weird guy, he had a he had a 497 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: unique brain. He had a unique view of everything. This 498 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: ability to see magic and mathematics and everything else wrapped 499 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: up into one, so he could, you know, cling to 500 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: a Christian faith. But his view of the Christian faith 501 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: was was and it was inherently different I think from 502 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: from most people's at the time. Yeah, I think it 503 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: was different. But at the same the way I like 504 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: to think of it is that he was into Christian mysticism, right, 505 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: and that like he he he was a believer. He 506 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: was trying to do the right thing. I think he 507 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: was trying to ride the line between Protestantism and Catholicism 508 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: so that he basically could stay alive. Um, but that 509 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: the stuff that he believed was the mystical parts that 510 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: were sort of like some people were like, oh yeah, 511 00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: that that that exists. I don't know if I subscribed 512 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: to that or not, and others were like, oh yeah, 513 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: that's part of it. Yeah, talking to angels, uh, looking 514 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: into crystal balls. Yeah, definitely astrology, Okay, you know. Um 515 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: in the same way, I don't know, I'm like trying 516 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: to think of a modern day example, Like I guess 517 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: Caballa keeps coming to mind, and that's not even modern day. 518 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: I mean Cabrala was around at the time of d 519 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: was alive. Um, So maybe that's an example, and he 520 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: mentioned astrology. D kept a private diary where he mentioned 521 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: a lot of when we know comes from his own writings. 522 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: But this was a time before diaries and calendars of 523 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: the modern sort, so d would would plot out the 524 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: positions of the planets in reference to the recorded details 525 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: of his daily life, likely in order to identify links 526 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: between his personal life and celestial events. So it's an 527 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: uncharacteristically intimate account of Elizabethan life, much of it lost, however, 528 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: but still there's a there's a lot there. It's kind 529 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,479 Speaker 1: of been written in shorthand, and it will include things like, 530 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: you know, his personal finances, jobs he picked up. Um. 531 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: I actually have an example here from his diary October 532 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: seven My anger with Edward my coke because of his disorder. 533 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: October eight Mr Richard Western lent me ten pounds for 534 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: a year. October nine, I dined with Sir Walter Rawleigh 535 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: at Durham House. October eleven to Edwards part of wagons. 536 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: Mr Banks lent me upon loan till after Christmas five pounds. 537 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: Mr Emory sent me three pounds by my servant Richard 538 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: walka dine. So it's that sort of thing. So he's 539 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: just like kind of acquiring like a couple of pounds here, 540 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: a couple of pounds there for his services presumably. I mean, 541 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: I doubt that they're just giving it to him as donations. 542 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: Maybe he read their horoscope or maybe he I don't know, 543 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: I wrote a map for them or something. Yeah, it's 544 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: kind of like an It's kind of like he kept 545 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: an astrologically aligned chart of his finances to a certain 546 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: extent in these and he was doing a lot of 547 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: freelance activities like to to sup because he's a guy 548 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: who's spent a lot of money on books and UH 549 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: and his his his interests, and to support that, he 550 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: would do freelance horoscopes, you have freelance dream interpretations. And 551 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: I was even reading that he occasionally did some freelance 552 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: forensics work account of him apparently of him weighing in 553 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: on a robbery UH and deciding who was who was guilty. 554 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: It's kind of it's kind of faint going from his notes, 555 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: but that seems to be the case. So d you 556 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: believed in a natural magic? When we start talking about 557 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: his use of magic and his belief in magic and 558 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: his magic, that's tied up with mathematics. He saw magic 559 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: as the human ability to tap into the forces that 560 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: God unleashed when he created the cosmos, and that set 561 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: things in motion. So that's important, not not the power 562 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: of God, but the powers that God unleashed. Yeah, he 563 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: saw natural magic as actually a legitimate study of science, 564 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: and in his own books he listed the magical arts 565 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: as being a derivative subject of mathematics. Keep in mind 566 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: that his thought process wasn't usual at the time. Many 567 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: thought science and magic were different facets to just understand 568 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: understand what was going on in the mind of God. Yeah, 569 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: and it's interesting too to look at his thoughts on 570 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: magic that he's essentially talking about technology here, granted with 571 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: a lot of occult bells and whistles, but he's talking 572 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: about figuring out how these forces in the universe work 573 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: and figuring out how to manipulate those forces. You know, 574 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: it's a really interesting connection to to the magic as 575 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: technology thing for him. When he was in college, he 576 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: created special effects for a production of Aristophanes packs and 577 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: he was branded Sorcerer because of it. He apparently built 578 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: a giant mechanical flying scare of I don't know if 579 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: it actually flew, but it was it was like an automaton, 580 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: and it was apparently so realistic to the people who 581 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: were watching it that they were like, oh, he must 582 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: have used magic to do this, but it was just engineering. Yeah, 583 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: this was a crazy moment in his life, and his 584 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: life was just full of these where yeah, he just 585 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: did f X for a play and the FX were 586 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: so good that people said, well, that was pretty amazing. 587 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: This guy is probably somehow involved with demonic forces. It's 588 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: the only excuse. And I was reading like people weren't 589 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: really sure exactly how he pulled it off, too, because 590 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: he would have had limited resources with the stage at 591 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: that time, so it's not we're not even exactly sure 592 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: what he did how he achieved the effect, but but 593 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,399 Speaker 1: he certainly what was I think it was pretty clear 594 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: that he was using practical effects and not not actual 595 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: sorcery here. Um. Another thing that we should note here too, 596 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: especially before we really get into his angelic communication, is 597 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 1: that the idea of an angelic language, which is referred 598 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: to as a Nochian, is said to be the mathematics 599 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: behind how creation was was made. So you know, keep 600 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: in mind, like as we're going through all of this 601 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: he's thinking of his interrogations of angels as being scientific 602 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 1: in nature, and that he's trying to understand how the 603 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: world works. Yes. Yeah, so in a sense, the Anochian 604 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: language and mathematics are like one is the secular and 605 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: one is the spiritual version of the same idea that 606 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: there's this underlying word, there's this underlying system that we 607 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: can understand, tap into and therefore gain insight into how 608 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,320 Speaker 1: the universe works. Yeah. Alright, so here's the juicy stuff, 609 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: the angelic communication. So he really wanted to communicate with 610 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: angels to help him understand natural knowledge. And the way 611 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: he did this was by attempting to conjure spirits using 612 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: a crystal and this this was common at the time. Yeah. 613 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: And it's I want to add real quick for anyone 614 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,760 Speaker 1: out there is not familiar with with Christianity and angels 615 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 1: and all that, because I found myself trying to explain 616 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: angels to my son the other that's gonna about it, 617 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 1: about what angels were, uh, And I didn't tell him 618 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: all of this, but in the in the Christian tradition, 619 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: the angels, of course the the servants of God. They 620 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,359 Speaker 1: are powerful and at times very terrifying beings that do 621 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: everything from deliver messages to you know, destroy whole cities 622 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,399 Speaker 1: and turn people into pillars of salt, that sort of thing. 623 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: I I wrote a video that we shot here about 624 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: different types of angels throughout Christian mysticism, and there's like, 625 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: you know, there's the thrones and the dominions, and they're 626 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: all there's like nine different categories. I think cherubs yeah, 627 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 1: uh and yeah, I mean they're utterly alien and terrifying 628 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: when you think about them from the context of these time. Yeah. Um, 629 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:45,320 Speaker 1: so we're not the fluffy cherubs of the modern version 630 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 1: of the cherubs or renaissance cherub that you see on 631 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: a coffee mug or something. Yeah. No, not at all, 632 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: not at all. Some of them were like wheels of 633 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,399 Speaker 1: burning fire with eyeballs in the middle and stuff. I mean, 634 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: like truly horrifying kind of imagery. Yeah. Fantasy illustra der 635 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 1: Michael Kluda, great. Yeah, he did a number of angel 636 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: illustrations for a short lived card game called Harressy Kingdom 637 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: Comeback in the nineties, and he did a fabulous job 638 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: invoking this I feel like that this this potent, intimidating 639 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 1: alien but also kind of but also holy feeling vision 640 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: of of an angelic entity. So I always connected those 641 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: when I try and think about these these angelic beings 642 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: as we encounter in UH in Christian tradition, and I 643 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,919 Speaker 1: imagine as D was performing these seances that we're about 644 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: to talk about, although he didn't really see anything himself, 645 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 1: that's what he was imagining was in the room with him. 646 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: So why didn't he see anything himself? Well, D himself 647 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: couldn't see spirits, so he relied on psychics enter Edward Kelly. 648 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: So Edward Kelly, uh is this twenty six year old 649 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: cunning man. You may have heard us talk about cunning 650 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 1: men before on the show. I was referring to them 651 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,240 Speaker 1: in an episode of UM when we were talking about 652 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: Warren Ellis's book Cunning Plans, because cunning men are sort 653 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: of I guess the best way to explain it real 654 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: quickly is just like an English shamanic tradition maybe UM. 655 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: And but he was also you know, a criminal and 656 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: a counterfeitter. He had his ears cropped from his head 657 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: before he met D. So think about that when you're 658 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: thinking about this guy. At least one of them, and 659 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: he apparently always wore a cowl to cover up the garage, 660 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: and that was for counterfeiting coins. Um okay. So D 661 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: and Kelly they meet for the first time in fifteen two. Yeah, 662 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: and this, this whole episode has there there's a lot 663 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: more detail, but I'll just try to go through the 664 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: basics here. So Kelly was calling himself Talbot at the time, 665 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: which is one of his his aliases. And uh, and 666 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: it's I think it's certainly fitting that even his introduction 667 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: to D was was clothed in deception. So he was 668 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: apparently he was apparently a pretty curious man character, as 669 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 1: we've talked about. He had difficulty kneeling, he walked with 670 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: the staff, and he's a young dude. But but he 671 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: also had had at least one ear cropped, uh for 672 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,439 Speaker 1: for for engaging in counterfeiting. He also may have served 673 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,319 Speaker 1: as a crooked notary in London at one port at 674 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: one point reputed to have dabbled in necromancy. He arrived 675 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 1: at D's to lie low after allegedly cheating a lady 676 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: out of some jewels. But he seems to have to 677 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: have talked his way out of trouble with with the 678 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: individuals who were pursuing him over this, and in his 679 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: private diary, D noted that quote I have confirmed that 680 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: Talbot was was a fraud. And Kelly himself came along 681 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 1: later at some point and scribbled Inde's diary a horrible 682 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: and slander's life, which which I think says a lot 683 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,280 Speaker 1: about this friendship. Um. So that yeah, their friendship seems 684 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: to have been rather complicated. Uh D seems to have 685 00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: considered him a friend, and certainly it would go on 686 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: to and a great deal of time with him in 687 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: the years they had. But it's also a quarrelsome intense relationship. 688 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 1: And to what extent was Kelly using D? To what 689 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: extent did D c himself is using Kelly if he 690 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 1: saw he saw perhaps Kelly is as an in the 691 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 1: way of of of better communicating with this spiritual realm 692 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: um So it's it's it's a complex relationship again. So 693 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 1: D's diary recounts a series of conversations with angels that 694 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: Kelly facilitated, and the hope was that D would get 695 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,320 Speaker 1: these angels to help him recover the original language spoken 696 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 1: by Adam before the confusion at Babel, which you know 697 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: we referred to earlier as a nokian Um. And the 698 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: way that we know about this was the Spirit Diaries 699 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,240 Speaker 1: were actually dug up in a field ten years after 700 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: his death, and in them is a completely new language 701 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: with its own grammar and syntax. Uh. The angels supposedly 702 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: provided him with the Anochian language, which they said was 703 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: the er language of humanity. And I want to I 704 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: want to add one thing in here, which is that, 705 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: you know, as I was reading through all this stuff, 706 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: I was utterly convinced that Edward Kelly was scamming d 707 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,839 Speaker 1: the whole time, and that he was just making up 708 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: the names of these angel characters and performing there whatever 709 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: their traits were, and just making the whole thing up. 710 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 1: But Alan Moore in that History Channel thing points out, sure, 711 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: that's probably true, but how on earth did somebody like 712 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: Edward Kelly invent an entire language on the fly. He 713 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 1: wasn't a linguistics expert. He would have had to have 714 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 1: been a genius to just create a fake language out 715 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 1: of nowhere. And people have since studied an Occhi and 716 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 1: have looked over these notes and it's you know, it 717 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: functions as a language. So uh, the you know, the 718 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: big question is like, well, okay, if he wasn't talking 719 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: to angels, how did Edward Kelly come up with this? Uh? Yeah, 720 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,320 Speaker 1: because you're left with a few possibilities here. As I understand, 721 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,760 Speaker 1: it's either, ay, he actually did come up with this 722 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 1: this material, and there's some questions about about whether or 723 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 1: not he had the background to do it. Um the 724 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: other possibility and this seems this seems to to square 725 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,440 Speaker 1: with what we know about his his character. Perhaps he 726 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: stole it from somewhere he he copied it from someone else, 727 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 1: and we're just there's a there's a certain amount of 728 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 1: ambiguity about where that might have been, where where it 729 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: might have been stolen from, right, Yeah, and that we 730 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,799 Speaker 1: don't know now. Kelly, as he was looking through his 731 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 1: crystal ball or his scrying mirror, said that the angels 732 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:41,720 Speaker 1: were angry with humanity for being captivated by anything but God, 733 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,799 Speaker 1: and they described to d the order of the Cosmos, 734 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: instructions for rituals and predictions of the future, as well 735 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 1: as the Anochian language. Their major pronouncement was that that 736 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,360 Speaker 1: they wanted the world to be united under a single 737 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: religion that united all the denominations of Christianity, along with 738 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,919 Speaker 1: Judaism and Islam. So essentially, you know, four hundred years ago, 739 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: these angels quote unquote, we're advocating for globalism. So it's 740 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,359 Speaker 1: kind of fascinating when you think about it, especially like 741 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,319 Speaker 1: if we consider like Kelly was probably making the whole 742 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: thing up. He was like advocating for this very like 743 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: futuristic idea of socioeconomics. You know, it's it's fascinating. Yeah, 744 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 1: I can easily imagine a scenario where where one of 745 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: these angels is saying, look, Christianity, juda Judaism, Islam, these uh, 746 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 1: these factions are not gonna work everything out in the 747 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: foreseeable future. Better that we just combine it all into 748 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: one and then everybody can be unified. Now, for Kelly's part, 749 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 1: as you know, as he's relaying these messages from the angels, 750 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 1: he's also saying to D these angels are actually demons, 751 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 1: and I'm terrified to them because they know that I 752 00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 1: previously had participated in some demonic grim wire magic Um 753 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,799 Speaker 1: and D was like, nope, we've got to continue. I 754 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 1: absolutely insisted that we continue. I mean, Kelly was basically 755 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: like a prisoner and dzone um and the two of 756 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: them even asked the angels for money at one point, 757 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:16,960 Speaker 1: and Kelly reportedly asked them for a loan, like like 758 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: they were gonna make money appear out of nowhere and 759 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,000 Speaker 1: then he would give it back to them or something. 760 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,239 Speaker 1: I don't know. So and and keep in mind too, 761 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: it's very likely that this is all just a fiction 762 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: in his own head that he's enacting in front of 763 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,319 Speaker 1: D for D's purposes. Right. But then also, I mean, 764 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: when when you're when you're dealing with this kind of 765 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,400 Speaker 1: magic and and if you're considering this some sort of 766 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,399 Speaker 1: demonic entity that you're you're communicating with, uh, I mean 767 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,319 Speaker 1: that that has some very real life ramifications, not an 768 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:47,799 Speaker 1: age where you can just walk around on the street 769 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,920 Speaker 1: and talk about your conversations with demons. So while they're 770 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:52,799 Speaker 1: in the middle of all this and they're they're working 771 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 1: at AM more like they UH come into contact with 772 00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,320 Speaker 1: the third party. And this guy's name, he's a Polish 773 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,960 Speaker 1: prince in his him is Lord Albert Laski UH, and 774 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: he had visited England and claimed that he was there 775 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: simply to meet the queen and enjoy the sceneries. UH. 776 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,880 Speaker 1: He had previously been suspected of trying to steal the 777 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 1: Polish throne. Everybody's trying to steal a throne in this story. Yeah, 778 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: I think that's an important thing to keep in mind 779 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: about the about the European setting at the time is 780 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,879 Speaker 1: this was not an age of stability. This was an 781 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:30,200 Speaker 1: age of tense politics, an age of war, an age 782 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 1: of of rather robust espionage, UM coded messages going back 783 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,720 Speaker 1: and forth, and and people people dying when these codes 784 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:46,400 Speaker 1: are unraveled. So Lasky's involvement with these guys is is 785 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 1: weird and debated, and Robert and I had to look 786 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:51,320 Speaker 1: to a couple of different books to try to figure 787 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,960 Speaker 1: out how much we could, you know, resolve as to 788 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: what was his involvement in the situation. Apparently he started 789 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:04,520 Speaker 1: showing up at the ances and this was considered problematic, 790 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 1: I think by Kelly because there was a third party 791 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,919 Speaker 1: involved there, probably because Kelly was afraid that he would 792 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 1: get caught um. But also the idea was basically like 793 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,719 Speaker 1: why would you why would you sit on on these seances? 794 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,000 Speaker 1: Some demon could come out and destroy you. You know, 795 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,759 Speaker 1: it's like this horribly scary thing. There's also, you know, 796 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,120 Speaker 1: some question about whether or not he was an informer 797 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:28,400 Speaker 1: either for Poland or possibly the Holy Roman Empire. Um. 798 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,960 Speaker 1: Either way, it seems that he was the one who 799 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:36,279 Speaker 1: eventually leads them to Poland. Um. And the story goes 800 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,759 Speaker 1: that he was duped by Edward Kelly and the whole 801 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,879 Speaker 1: scrying thing, and he believed that great things were meant 802 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:46,280 Speaker 1: for Kelly. Uh, and so he convinces them to return 803 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,080 Speaker 1: to Poland with him in fifteen eighty three, and they 804 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: pack up their whole family, uh, and all their stuff 805 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,360 Speaker 1: with them, except for the library, this huge library. Uh. 806 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,160 Speaker 1: Now there's a lot of stuff that goes on in Poland. 807 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:03,840 Speaker 1: We'll get into that. But when they get there, their experiments, 808 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,640 Speaker 1: whatever they were doing, I think it was alchemical in nature, 809 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,080 Speaker 1: were so costly that Laski lost his fortune in lands 810 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: trying to fund the two of their work. And when 811 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,719 Speaker 1: it became apparent that he couldn't afford this any longer, uh, 812 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:23,120 Speaker 1: the spirits began to express their doubts through Kelly that 813 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,480 Speaker 1: Laski may not have been the right man to bring 814 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,759 Speaker 1: about the changes in Europe that they desired. Yeah. Now, 815 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 1: this is a period of time where where Kelly just 816 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: increasingly seems like he's just a con artist, you know, 817 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,920 Speaker 1: making promises of gold, like generating gold through alchemy for 818 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,880 Speaker 1: his benefactors, and then here when things don't go as planned, 819 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,800 Speaker 1: when he can't deliver, he cast doubt on his benefactors. Yeah, 820 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,440 Speaker 1: and and and the way that the last KI basically 821 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,279 Speaker 1: gets rid of them as he says, you know, I'm 822 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 1: gonna pay for you guys to go to Prague and 823 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: I'll provide you with a letter of introduction to Emperor 824 00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,920 Speaker 1: Rudolph the second his problem. Then, Now, I think we 825 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,840 Speaker 1: mentioned this in the you know, the short bio at 826 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,399 Speaker 1: the beginning, but apparently you know Rudolph threw D out 827 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: of the Holy Roman Empire. Now, some say it was 828 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,880 Speaker 1: because he suspected that D was an English spy. Now, 829 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,720 Speaker 1: considering you know what we know about D and cryptography 830 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: and statecraft, maybe he was. We're gonna talk about that 831 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 1: more in the next episode. But there's also evidence that 832 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,799 Speaker 1: the Angels told D that he needed to go to 833 00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 1: Rudolph and tell Rudolph that he was possessed by demons. Now, 834 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,520 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church were aware of this, and they considered 835 00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,520 Speaker 1: D and Kelly a threat. Think about this though, like 836 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: in context of the time, D is so much of 837 00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,399 Speaker 1: a believer in what Kelly is telling him that he's 838 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,680 Speaker 1: willing to go to the Emperor and be like, sorry, 839 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,879 Speaker 1: you're possessed by demons and you you know you need 840 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,240 Speaker 1: to really turn your life around. Why don't you listen 841 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: to us? I mean, that's an executable offense. Luckily he 842 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:03,000 Speaker 1: just was exiled. Now it seems that D was very 843 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,759 Speaker 1: sincere about this, while it also seems that Kelly was 844 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,360 Speaker 1: probably duping him and their relationship lasted for ten years. 845 00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:14,680 Speaker 1: Here's where it all falls apart. So the angels told 846 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,960 Speaker 1: them to swap wives. Sound again, it sounds like reality 847 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,520 Speaker 1: TV show to me. Uh. There's this angel that they 848 00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:25,480 Speaker 1: keep communicating with named Medimi, and she's described as being 849 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,280 Speaker 1: kind of this, um, I don't know, like coquettish little 850 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,719 Speaker 1: girl that uh Kelly would describers like running around the 851 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:36,359 Speaker 1: room and stuff. And she told them you guys have 852 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,040 Speaker 1: to share all things in common, and they interpreted that 853 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,959 Speaker 1: as meaning their wives. Now, Jane d was D's wife 854 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,360 Speaker 1: at the time. She was his third wife. He had 855 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,400 Speaker 1: had two previous wives who died I believe of illness. 856 00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:52,920 Speaker 1: She was much younger than him. I think she was 857 00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:54,960 Speaker 1: in like her mid twenties. And he was in his fifties, 858 00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,480 Speaker 1: and she was reportedly very upset about this because, by 859 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:03,440 Speaker 1: all accounts, Edward Kelly was not uh an attractive man 860 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:07,040 Speaker 1: or you know, a trustworthy man. So the last thing 861 00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,279 Speaker 1: she wanted to do was have to sleep with this guy. 862 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,759 Speaker 1: But D thought it was a valid command from the angels, 863 00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,120 Speaker 1: especially because then even D was like, hey, I need 864 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,759 Speaker 1: some uh some confirmation on this. So Kelly's like, okay, 865 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,080 Speaker 1: let me look into the screwing ball over here, and 866 00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:26,960 Speaker 1: he summons the angel Uriel, who's like a pretty high 867 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,080 Speaker 1: up in the hierarchy of angels, and Uriel confirms that 868 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,960 Speaker 1: He's like, yep, you guys have to share everything. So 869 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:37,719 Speaker 1: two days after they drew up their wife swapping contract, 870 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:44,200 Speaker 1: then the Scarlet Woman Babylon appeared to Kelly. Now some 871 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,759 Speaker 1: of you may recognize this from like a Crowley in 872 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,680 Speaker 1: magic Um. She's also known as the Horror of Babylon 873 00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:55,640 Speaker 1: and Revelations. This was so scary to them, or at 874 00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,480 Speaker 1: least two D that they parted ways and their sessions 875 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:04,960 Speaker 1: east forever. They they they their relationship ended. Kelly ended 876 00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:10,120 Speaker 1: up wandering around Bohemia, and he then convinces Rudolph the second, Hey, 877 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,800 Speaker 1: I know alchemy, I might be able to use the 878 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:18,840 Speaker 1: Philosopher's stone to make you gold. Yeah, and this would uh, 879 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:20,800 Speaker 1: this would seem to be the just to spell the 880 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:25,560 Speaker 1: final chapter of of Edward Kelly's life. Um, you know, 881 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,560 Speaker 1: at this point the story I really d and Kelly 882 00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,160 Speaker 1: certainly kind of created, seemed to have created like codependently, 883 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,839 Speaker 1: their their own little crazy trip here and uh and 884 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,720 Speaker 1: I feel feel bad for the women that were sucked 885 00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,399 Speaker 1: along the way. But things finally come apart, they come 886 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,040 Speaker 1: to pieces. I feel like the is the character who 887 00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,560 Speaker 1: certainly comes out off as more honest, more devout, whereas, 888 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,359 Speaker 1: as you know, Kelly is is probably just a con 889 00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:58,759 Speaker 1: artist who's also buying into certain amounts of his own 890 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,799 Speaker 1: con So I don't think one should take solace from 891 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,400 Speaker 1: such things. But it seems that Kelly died in fifteen 892 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,360 Speaker 1: seven or fifty in a check castle where he was 893 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:14,560 Speaker 1: imprisoned for failing to produce that alchemist gold. And he 894 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,840 Speaker 1: apparently died from injury sustained while trying to escape. According 895 00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,480 Speaker 1: to Benjamin Woolly's book, UM, Kelly tried to climb from 896 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,839 Speaker 1: the window on a rope of knotted sheets. You know, 897 00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,520 Speaker 1: just like in the movies, and then fell breaking both legs. 898 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,040 Speaker 1: And this was after drugging the guards with opium smuggled 899 00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:37,200 Speaker 1: in by his wife Joanna. This guy. Yeah. D later 900 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,200 Speaker 1: writes that he'd heard that Kelly quote had been Swain, 901 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,560 Speaker 1: and there were rumors that that Kelly, even at the time, 902 00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,400 Speaker 1: had faked his own death and was continuing to practice 903 00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:53,000 Speaker 1: alchemy in southern Germany or possibly Russia. But then then 904 00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,719 Speaker 1: the conspiracy theorists would say, like, he went on to 905 00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,920 Speaker 1: live for hundreds of years and he was rescputed. But 906 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:03,279 Speaker 1: I have a feeling and it seems like the more 907 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,759 Speaker 1: historians tend to agree that, yeah, he probably fell out 908 00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,160 Speaker 1: of that fell from that that that rope of sheets 909 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:12,719 Speaker 1: and broke both his legs and then subsequently died of 910 00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,920 Speaker 1: the injuries. Yeah, that sounds right to me. So why 911 00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,319 Speaker 1: don't we take one more break, and then let's talk 912 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: about the sort of spiritual artifacts that come up after 913 00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:32,320 Speaker 1: D's death. All right, we're back. So D was for 914 00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,319 Speaker 1: for whatever else he was, And certainly he was a 915 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:38,120 Speaker 1: lot of things again, all kind of woven together. He 916 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:43,120 Speaker 1: was certainly a collector of occult paraphernalia and occult books. Uh, 917 00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,000 Speaker 1: and we still have some of these spiritual artifacts. The 918 00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:50,040 Speaker 1: British Museum retains ownership of several items that he and 919 00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,160 Speaker 1: and Kelly utilized in seances and other rights. So we've 920 00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,839 Speaker 1: already talked about these extensive library and you can think 921 00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,480 Speaker 1: of it in these terms. This is the way the 922 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:05,239 Speaker 1: d divided it. You had the external bibliotheca, which is 923 00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:09,399 Speaker 1: the external library. You had several rooms or appendices which 924 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,840 Speaker 1: led off from the library, and in these dependencies of 925 00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:19,000 Speaker 1: visitors to his home, described celestial and terrestrial globes, a 926 00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,880 Speaker 1: five foot quadrant, a ten foot to cross staff, a 927 00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:27,040 Speaker 1: sea compass, an accurate quote watch clock, uh portable time piece, 928 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:31,400 Speaker 1: various marvels from his travels. And these rooms also housed 929 00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:36,360 Speaker 1: his libraries laboratories, so where multiple skills bubbled. You know, 930 00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,160 Speaker 1: it sounds like a complete uh you know, set from 931 00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,120 Speaker 1: like a hammer horror film. Yeah, there's no h It's 932 00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:46,120 Speaker 1: not a coincidence that our modern day idea of what 933 00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:50,480 Speaker 1: a wizard or a sorcerer looks like is d We 934 00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:52,719 Speaker 1: had that idea of him in the robe with a big, 935 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:55,920 Speaker 1: long white beard. Yeah, we have some various we have 936 00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,600 Speaker 1: various illustrations of of what he looked like and I 937 00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,920 Speaker 1: think there's probably one the cover image for this episode, 938 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:03,560 Speaker 1: so you have already have an idea in your head. 939 00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:06,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, he looked like our modern conception of a wizard. 940 00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:10,240 Speaker 1: So he had he had all these these rooms filling 941 00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:14,239 Speaker 1: off from the library, from the external library. But then 942 00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:18,000 Speaker 1: there was also the internal bibliotheca, the private study, an 943 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,360 Speaker 1: adjoining chapel, and there was also an adjoining chapel where, 944 00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:25,320 Speaker 1: to quote Wullie, he presumably shelved the Bibles and devotional 945 00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:30,640 Speaker 1: texts so conspicuously lacking from the catalogs of the external bibliotheca. 946 00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:35,080 Speaker 1: But the internal bibliotheca, the internal library, this is where 947 00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:39,000 Speaker 1: he stored his magical equipment, his confidential writings, and certain 948 00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:43,160 Speaker 1: books of frequent use. And uh, by the way, this, 949 00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:47,040 Speaker 1: if this sounds like a rather costly man cave, you're right. Uh. 950 00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:51,280 Speaker 1: It steadily became unsustainable on his mirror eighty pound annual 951 00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:56,799 Speaker 1: stipend from his rectory at Long Leadenham. And so he 952 00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:00,560 Speaker 1: provided this. Whine provided no number of freelance services, including tutoring, 953 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:06,520 Speaker 1: astrological readings, dream interpretation, medical consultations, and forensic advice, which 954 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:12,000 Speaker 1: already mentioned. So among the various items in his possession. Again, 955 00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,759 Speaker 1: a few of them survived this day, and one of 956 00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:18,719 Speaker 1: them is uh Dr D's Magical mirror, also known as 957 00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:23,799 Speaker 1: Dr D's Magical speculum. That I don't know where we're going, 958 00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:27,480 Speaker 1: but the party sounds bad. So there's some wonderful images 959 00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:29,239 Speaker 1: of this, and I'll try to include some on the 960 00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:31,080 Speaker 1: landing page for this episode of Stuff to Blow your 961 00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:35,680 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. The black mirror here, this uh, this 962 00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,280 Speaker 1: magical mirror. It's probably not quite what you would imagine 963 00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,800 Speaker 1: if someone asks you to envision on elizabethan sorcerer's mirror. 964 00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:46,600 Speaker 1: It looks rather like part of an Ikea coffee table. Actually, 965 00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,000 Speaker 1: it's an obsidian quote smoking mirror, so named because the 966 00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,960 Speaker 1: squire gazing into the mirror would see clouds of smoke, 967 00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:58,000 Speaker 1: which would part to reveal a vision. Uh. And and 968 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:00,400 Speaker 1: this is definitely an item that Edward Kelly made use 969 00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:04,600 Speaker 1: of as well. Apparently it's of Aztec origin, brought to 970 00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,120 Speaker 1: Europe after the conquest of Mexico, acquired by Dr D 971 00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:12,040 Speaker 1: for use in his magical pursuits in the late sixteenth century, 972 00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:16,440 Speaker 1: perhaps created though up to two centuries earlier in Mexico, 973 00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:20,840 Speaker 1: and this is in the British Museum. Yeah, it's a obsidian. 974 00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,720 Speaker 1: There's a wood case covered in tooled leather with label 975 00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:28,840 Speaker 1: and a handwriting of one Horace Walpole and a quotation 976 00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,400 Speaker 1: from a Samuel Butler poem. So do you think this 977 00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:33,600 Speaker 1: is where the idea for the title of the show 978 00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:37,360 Speaker 1: Black Mirror came from. I've I've never seen there. I've 979 00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,360 Speaker 1: never seen any connective tissue there, but I couldn't help 980 00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,600 Speaker 1: but think of it, you know, the scrying mirror. I 981 00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,600 Speaker 1: know that the black mirror that on the TV show 982 00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:47,480 Speaker 1: is you know, supposed to have to do with like 983 00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:53,240 Speaker 1: the the the the black screens of personal devices. But 984 00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,000 Speaker 1: it does make me think too now about scrying mirrors. 985 00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,240 Speaker 1: And I wondered, Yeah, I wondered to what extent a 986 00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:02,240 Speaker 1: smoking mirror is invoked in that. Now, this is not 987 00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:06,480 Speaker 1: to be confused with the strange mirror um just as 988 00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,040 Speaker 1: as it was sometimes called, that was given to d 989 00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:13,480 Speaker 1: by one William Pickering the quote great perspective glass. And 990 00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:16,000 Speaker 1: this apparently stood in a corner of his study, And 991 00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:19,280 Speaker 1: according to Wully, anyone who lunged at the glass with 992 00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:23,200 Speaker 1: a dagger found their reflection lunging back at them. Quote 993 00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:27,640 Speaker 1: with like hand sword or dagger creating an unsettling effect, 994 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,919 Speaker 1: but one that d would use to explain how all 995 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,600 Speaker 1: strange effects could be explained by the mathematics of perspective. 996 00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:37,680 Speaker 1: So this was not something that he apparently used in 997 00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:41,280 Speaker 1: occult practices, and I guess based on what we know 998 00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:44,520 Speaker 1: about it, it would have been a nonreversing mirror, of 999 00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:48,600 Speaker 1: which there's a few different varieties, and the Queen herself 1000 00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:53,320 Speaker 1: apparently once stood before this mirror. Now, he also had 1001 00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:57,600 Speaker 1: two crystal balls, one of which good Old Edward Kelly 1002 00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,440 Speaker 1: or Talbot used to see Uriel. Uh. There's the seal 1003 00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,640 Speaker 1: of God or Sigillum Day used to support other occult 1004 00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:07,840 Speaker 1: objects such as the crystals. This is also in the 1005 00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:09,760 Speaker 1: British Museum, so this would have been kind of you know, 1006 00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:13,400 Speaker 1: the table for their their other objects. Uh. There there 1007 00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:15,200 Speaker 1: are the crystals themselves, one of which is in the 1008 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:19,160 Speaker 1: British Museum. John D's crystal who used for a clairvoyance 1009 00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:23,400 Speaker 1: and for curing disease metal in courts uh from around 1010 00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:27,600 Speaker 1: fight two. You can also see images of this, so 1011 00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:32,000 Speaker 1: it's it's fascinating we have some of the magical artifacts 1012 00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:34,920 Speaker 1: of his life of his time still with us today. 1013 00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:38,800 Speaker 1: He Yeah, I can't help but think about again, like 1014 00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:43,000 Speaker 1: the research that we did about grimoires in that uh, 1015 00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:46,160 Speaker 1: that a lot of those were created I think earlier 1016 00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:50,400 Speaker 1: than days time, but he's still relying on a lot 1017 00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:53,400 Speaker 1: of the I guess magical thinking would be the right 1018 00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,680 Speaker 1: way to put it. Um that surrounded those texts and 1019 00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,200 Speaker 1: then applied them to objects in the way that we 1020 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:04,800 Speaker 1: now understand as being just like part of fantasy genre 1021 01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:07,400 Speaker 1: of like, well, this is how a wizard works. They 1022 01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:13,480 Speaker 1: have a staff and a crystal and a huge library. Right. Uh. Yeah, 1023 01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,880 Speaker 1: it's interesting that you know, certainly Merlin is the the 1024 01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:21,800 Speaker 1: the the the perfect example of the the the English 1025 01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:25,880 Speaker 1: wizarding character, and it's certainly a character that had an 1026 01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:29,240 Speaker 1: influence on D. But then D himself becomes this this 1027 01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:34,640 Speaker 1: influential icon of of English wizardry. Uh. And it's almost 1028 01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:38,200 Speaker 1: certain that William Shakespeare modeled the character of Prospero in 1029 01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:42,400 Speaker 1: The Tempest on the character of D. Yeah. Uh And 1030 01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:44,919 Speaker 1: interesting again, tying it back to the whole Alan Moore thing. 1031 01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:49,440 Speaker 1: In Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentleman, Prospero shows up 1032 01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,480 Speaker 1: as a character and it's heavily implied that he is 1033 01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:56,200 Speaker 1: John d you know, speaking of sort of modern interpretations 1034 01:00:56,240 --> 01:01:01,200 Speaker 1: as looking around. Uh interestingly enough, Rocky horror our mastermind 1035 01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:05,880 Speaker 1: Richard O'Brien played Dr D in the nine film Jubilee, 1036 01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,720 Speaker 1: which is kind of like a time traveling Elizabethan thing. 1037 01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,640 Speaker 1: Actor David Threlfall played both the Prospero and Dr John 1038 01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:17,760 Speaker 1: d uh the later in the second Elizabeth movie. Okay, yeah, 1039 01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:20,920 Speaker 1: I was gonna add because there's been these Elizabeth movies 1040 01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:23,560 Speaker 1: and I thought they must have included D somehow. Yeah. 1041 01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:25,520 Speaker 1: I have not seen the Golden Age, but he apparently 1042 01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:28,120 Speaker 1: he shows up in that, as do some of these 1043 01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:31,480 Speaker 1: other characters, especially ones will discuss in the next episode 1044 01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:35,360 Speaker 1: that that deals a little more closely with his you know, 1045 01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,600 Speaker 1: his real world pursuits. And then wait a minute, there's 1046 01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:42,960 Speaker 1: a note here about Terrence McKenna. Yeah, so this largely 1047 01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:46,800 Speaker 1: according to the Internet movie Database, Terence McKenna played D 1048 01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:52,000 Speaker 1: in The Alchemical Dream, Rebirth of the Great Work and 1049 01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:54,560 Speaker 1: the Whole. You can find the whole thing on YouTube. 1050 01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:58,120 Speaker 1: It seems like he just like McKenna, just narrates it. 1051 01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:01,320 Speaker 1: I didn't watch the whole, but I didn't I didn't 1052 01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:03,560 Speaker 1: notice a scene in which he dresses up as D. 1053 01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:07,000 Speaker 1: But still that's like a um, I don't know, like 1054 01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:13,480 Speaker 1: modern day quote magicians slash psychedelic psychonauts dream come true, 1055 01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,200 Speaker 1: that's kind of a thing. Yeah, So it's interesting to 1056 01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:21,720 Speaker 1: see these influence in uh in in modern society and entertainment. There, 1057 01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:24,360 Speaker 1: they're a whole list of of examples, and we're not 1058 01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:26,520 Speaker 1: even gonna get into where D shows up in various 1059 01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:30,000 Speaker 1: fictional works to varying degrees, either as a as an 1060 01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:35,440 Speaker 1: amazing side character or occasionally as a central character. Huh Well, okay, 1061 01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,760 Speaker 1: so I feel like we've covered as well as we 1062 01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:43,080 Speaker 1: can in the time available to us the occult, magical 1063 01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:48,920 Speaker 1: aspects of D. Now we're gonna cut this episode and 1064 01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:51,919 Speaker 1: our next episode this week is going to be all 1065 01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:57,160 Speaker 1: about his contributions to science, to state craft and cryptography. 1066 01:02:57,280 --> 01:02:59,800 Speaker 1: That's right, So pick up with us again in the 1067 01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:04,200 Speaker 1: next episode and we will dive into more uh tantalizing 1068 01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:08,200 Speaker 1: details about the life and work of Dr John A. D. Now. 1069 01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:10,080 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you want to get in touch 1070 01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:12,880 Speaker 1: with us, don't forget that we are available on social 1071 01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:18,400 Speaker 1: media at Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, and Instagram. Uh, and you 1072 01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:20,240 Speaker 1: can always visit us at stuff to Blow your mind 1073 01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:22,120 Speaker 1: dot com. And if you want to send us an 1074 01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,680 Speaker 1: email the old fashioned way, you don't have to use 1075 01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:29,840 Speaker 1: any fancy wizarding equipment. You don't need a magic mirror 1076 01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,800 Speaker 1: or a scrying crystal. Just send it to blow the 1077 01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:43,920 Speaker 1: mind at how stuff works dot com. Well more on 1078 01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,480 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff 1079 01:03:46,480 --> 01:04:00,720 Speaker 1: works dot com