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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm well, Paul? How about you?

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Speaker 2: I am hanging in there. What's been going on?

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm trying to stay organized, and I'm pretty good

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Speaker 1: at it, I think because I am the master or mistress.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure which of making lists? Are you a

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Speaker 1: list kind of person? Do you do a lot of lists?

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Speaker 1: Or are you putting info in your calendar? How do

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Speaker 1: you stay organized?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Geez, you know, for in my personal life. No,

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Speaker 2: I don't make any lists. You know. I've tried to

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Speaker 2: do the whole task list thing, and I just start

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Speaker 2: ignoring it. That's not me, you know. But when it

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Speaker 2: comes to like casework, yes, you're like, if I want

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Speaker 2: to go interview somebody, I will make a list of

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Speaker 2: you know, questions and details that I'm trying to get

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Speaker 2: or other things within the case. So within the professional realm, yes,

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Speaker 2: I do rely on lists.

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Speaker 1: So Google Keep. Do you ever use Google Keep or

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Speaker 1: anything like that.

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Speaker 2: I haven't. I I've heard of it, but I've never

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Speaker 2: used it.

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Speaker 1: So I've gotten my kids on Google Keep. I had

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Speaker 1: one of them do online school at home, and she

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Speaker 1: was really trying to stay organized. It was like going

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Speaker 1: from a normal middle school to doing like doctoral work

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Speaker 1: on your own, and she really needed to stay organized.

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Speaker 1: And we used Google Keep, and you know, you can

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Speaker 1: put it on your computer, you can put it on

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Speaker 1: your phone, and that's been so helpful for her that

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Speaker 1: I decided to do it. But I've gotten a little

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Speaker 1: bit OCD about it because I color code everything now

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Speaker 1: and and I'll put stuff on the family calend I'll

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Speaker 1: put stuff on Google Keep and not on the family calendar.

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Speaker 1: And my kids are like, what do you mean We're

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Speaker 1: going out to dinner tonight that's not on the family calendar,

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Speaker 1: but it's on my Google keep, so I do. I'm

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Speaker 1: hyper organized with pretty much everything that I do. But

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Speaker 1: I just know that there are quite a few people

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Speaker 1: who just don't. I don't know how you can operate

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Speaker 1: without a list, even I have to do a chore list.

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Speaker 1: So I have a lot of respect for you if

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Speaker 1: you can keep all that stuff in your pretty little

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Speaker 1: head that you have to do.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's the times, and I forget to do

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Speaker 2: something for sure, you know, and maybe a list would

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Speaker 2: would have reminded me. It's just for me, you know.

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Speaker 2: I'm all about you know. I guess efficiency and lists

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Speaker 2: on one hand, would be efficient, but then I could

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Speaker 2: spend more time generating lists than actually getting work done.

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Speaker 2: And that's my fear.

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Speaker 1: That's a pretty big fear. Well, we're going to jump

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Speaker 1: right into this story, and I can guarantee you that

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Speaker 1: the investigators who had to dig into this story had many, many, many,

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Speaker 1: many many lists that they had to deal with, because

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Speaker 1: this is a big one. I'm not sure we've had

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Speaker 1: one with this much like relationship drama before, and we've

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Speaker 1: had some pretty intense relationship drama stories. This next level,

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Speaker 1: I know, next level and you know, when I think

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Speaker 1: about a relationship drama, I think sort of like it's

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Speaker 1: I don't know, present day relationship drama and the stuff

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Speaker 1: that plays out on social media and who's getting a

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Speaker 1: divorce and all of that. This is a story from

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Speaker 1: nineteen oh three that has incredible drama in it and

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Speaker 1: some pretty I think, bigger than life characters. And I

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Speaker 1: just have to keep reminding myself. I always think, you

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Speaker 1: know that time period, which is still Victorian America, that

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Speaker 1: is that time period. I can't believe that there's that

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Speaker 1: much drama. But people are people. It doesn't matter if

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Speaker 1: you're in the fifteen hundreds or you know, twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: It just doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: We just have not changed much over the centuries. But

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Speaker 2: just there's some of all things we have to take

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Speaker 2: into consideration for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and this will take some historical context on my

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Speaker 1: part to explain to you. This is a sex scandal

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Speaker 1: sallacious in nineteen oh three. This came from a listener

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Speaker 1: who I love it when our listeners reach out to

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Speaker 1: us and let us know about stories that they think

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Speaker 1: are really interesting, and this is a good one. And

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Speaker 1: I also want to kind of give a nod before

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Speaker 1: we jump into this to an author named Kimberly Tilley

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Speaker 1: who wrote a book called cold Heart, and that's what

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Speaker 1: calling this cold Heart, and you'll find out why here

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Speaker 1: pretty soon. So let's go ahead and set the scene. Okay,

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Speaker 1: nineteen oh three, one of our older ones, and this

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Speaker 1: involves a family called the Verdict Family. And I warned

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Speaker 1: you a little bit about this. This is there's a

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Speaker 1: lot going on here, and there's a lot of backstory,

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Speaker 1: but I've got lots and lots of yellow and this

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Speaker 1: is a big enough story that we needed to make

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Speaker 1: it a two parter, probably the biggest research document I've

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Speaker 1: ever had. So you better get yourself a coava and

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Speaker 1: sit back and let Aunt Kate tell you a story

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Speaker 1: by the fire.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to saddle up and you know, get my

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Speaker 2: ears going here.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So the Verdict family lives in a beautiful three

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Speaker 1: story house on Ashland Avenue, which is in Buffalo, New York.

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Speaker 1: And this is very close to an area at that

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Speaker 1: time called Millionaire's Row, and Buffalo is a really bustling city.

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Speaker 1: It's an industrial hub because it's on Lake Erie, which

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Speaker 1: Lake Erie served as a gateway for where goods were

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Speaker 1: passing between the East Coast and the West coast. So

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Speaker 1: Buffalo had a lot of money, a lot of money,

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Speaker 1: a lot of powerful people. You know, couples in their

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Speaker 1: thirties and forties had a lot of money and socialized together.

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Speaker 1: When I said sex scandal, I was thinking, this is

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Speaker 1: that set of people, lots of money, very good looking.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's intermingling, and there is quite a lot of drama.

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Speaker 1: And we know throughout history that drama, particularly with romantic relationships,

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Speaker 1: can lead to murder. And that is the bread and

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Speaker 1: butter of what we talk about on this show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of the fundamental motives of why people

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Speaker 2: kill each other. So I'm kind of curious to see

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Speaker 2: where this goes.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the main person here is a guy named Edwin Burdick.

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Speaker 1: We're going to call him ed self made, really wealthy man.

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Speaker 1: He was a stenographer in an envelope factory and he

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Speaker 1: rose through the ranks and he, along with another guy,

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Speaker 1: eventually bought the company. So he also owns a publishing company.

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Speaker 1: He's very outgoing as a social guy. He has been

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Speaker 1: known for being especially compassionate, and he has a wife

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Speaker 1: named Alice. He's forty, she's a few years older, and

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Speaker 1: they're members of a group in Buffalo that's known as

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Speaker 1: the Elmwood Avenue Set, which is about twenty couples who

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Speaker 1: belong to a golf club, the Red Jacket Golf Club,

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Speaker 1: and is the president, and they, you know, are also

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Speaker 1: a couple that love to go dancing, so they go

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Speaker 1: to a local dancing club often. This Elmwood Avenue Set,

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Speaker 1: which just sounds like a really interesting social club, has

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Speaker 1: a reputation for throwing really crazy, wild parties. They are

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Speaker 1: also kind of aloof and snotty and sort of looked down.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like on the rest of Buffalo society. Even

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Speaker 1: though it sounds like Ed's a great guy, he's in

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Speaker 1: an elite group and that you know, tends to tick

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Speaker 1: off the people who are not in that elite group.

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Speaker 1: And twenty couples is not that many people. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of I think options for kind of like jealousy,

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Speaker 1: and you know, there's money there. So this is again

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Speaker 1: rife for a big scandal. This couple has three daughters.

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Speaker 1: There's a fifteen year old, a thirteen year old, and

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Speaker 1: a ten year old that live in the house and

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Speaker 1: Alice's mother in law, so Ed's mom lives with the Verdicts.

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Speaker 1: Her name is Maria Hull, and there are some domestic workers.

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Speaker 1: It's a pretty big household here. Now. Alice is not

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Speaker 1: living there currently, and I'll explain why in a little bit.

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Speaker 1: This is what we have to do. I have to

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Speaker 1: tell you about the death, and then we have to

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Speaker 1: go back for the backstory. Once we have all that context,

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Speaker 1: we'll go back to the investigation. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 1: I probably will have most answers to your questions, but

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of context that goes into this.

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Speaker 2: Okay, makes sense to me, So.

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Speaker 1: If you get confused, let me know. But I might

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Speaker 1: have to do a little bit of searching in my

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Speaker 1: document to jump around. Okay, so this is the morning

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Speaker 1: of Friday, February twenty seventh, nineteen oh three. I will presume,

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Speaker 1: because we are in Buffalo, that it is freezing there.

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Speaker 1: They're freezing their little butts off. It's very cold. So

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Speaker 1: the cook's name is Maggie. She's the one who goes downstairs.

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Speaker 1: She says, oh, no, something bad has happened. It is

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Speaker 1: freezing downstairs. The front door is wide open, so the

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Speaker 1: winter wind is coming in, and she immediately freaks out

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Speaker 1: because she knows that Ed would have locked all the

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Speaker 1: doors every single night. She closes the door, she goes

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Speaker 1: into the kitchen. The window in the kitchen is wide open,

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Speaker 1: which makes it cold. Also, she immediately goes to thieves.

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Speaker 1: Because this is such a nice house in a great area.

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Speaker 1: She runs upstairs to find Ed. She runs into the

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Speaker 1: maid in the upstairs hall, whose name is Katie. So

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Speaker 1: now we have two domestic workers who are very stressed out.

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Speaker 1: And Maggie says to Katie, the door's open, something's happened.

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Speaker 1: Maggie knocks on Ed's bedroom door, no answer, So Maggie

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Speaker 1: pushes open the door. Empty bed. No Ed, and the

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Speaker 1: bed is actually still made, so it doesn't look like

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Speaker 1: he ever even came up for the night. Katie says

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Speaker 1: to Maggie, Yeah, I'm the one who made that bed,

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Speaker 1: and I did it yesterday, so he hasn't been up here.

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Speaker 1: Maggie had last seen Ed in the din when she

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Speaker 1: came home that night, so she goes downstairs to see

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Speaker 1: if he fell asleep. That happened often. When she gets

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Speaker 1: to the door of the den, Maggie has a case

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Speaker 1: of nerves and she is scared someone who also lives

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Speaker 1: in the house is Alice's mother and her name is

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Speaker 1: Maria Hull. Maggie gets to the door of the den,

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Speaker 1: she loses her nerve and she runs upstairs to wake

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Speaker 1: up Ed's mother in law, Alice's mom, who is Maria.

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Speaker 1: She's sixty four years old. Maggie knocks on her door, says,

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Speaker 1: the front door was open and the window was open.

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Speaker 1: Ed's not in the bedroom. I don't know what to do.

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Speaker 1: She goes down to the den. Maria says to Maggie

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Speaker 1: get going on breakfast. The family will come down at

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Speaker 1: eight thirty. Let me look around. It'll be okay. She

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Speaker 1: looks in Edd's room. She says he's not there, just

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Speaker 1: like the housekeepers had said. She goes down to the den.

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Speaker 1: She stops in front of the door and she says,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to go in either. She says to Maggie,

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Speaker 1: you open the door, and Maggie says no. So I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna pause here and say what is the right thing

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Speaker 1: to do at this point? So like my neighbor a

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago had her house broken into. Her

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Speaker 1: daughter was outside and the police said do not go

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Speaker 1: back inside, even though the door was wide open, you know,

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Speaker 1: and we almost didn't know what to do if we

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Speaker 1: were supposed to wait. We didn't know if her parents

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Speaker 1: were in there, what if somebody were hurt. What is

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Speaker 1: the right thing to do in this situation?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it differs from nineteen oh three till today.

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Speaker 2: And there's also the consideration of the temperature outside. You know,

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Speaker 2: if you are concerned that there's an intruder inside the house,

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Speaker 2: then yes, this is today. This is where you get

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Speaker 2: you know, law enforcement responding. And it may be where

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Speaker 2: either there's a secure location in your house but you

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Speaker 2: don't want to be trapped, or you get out of

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Speaker 2: the house, but it gets complicated. Do you have kids

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Speaker 2: inside the house? Do you need to help the kids?

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Speaker 2: In today's world, this is where you get on nine

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Speaker 2: to one one and you're on the phone with dispatch

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Speaker 2: and you're updating the dispatcher as to your location, where

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Speaker 2: you're in the house, what you know which you don't know,

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Speaker 2: and the dispatcher will let you know you know, how

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Speaker 2: far away law enforcement is is at that moment. In

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Speaker 2: nineteen oh three, they didn't have that option, and so

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Speaker 2: I could see, you know, you have a door wide open,

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Speaker 2: you have a window wide open. Do you don't know

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Speaker 2: if there's anybody in the house the trusted mail ed

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Speaker 2: You have no idea, you know, is he gone, is

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Speaker 2: he in the house? Is he hurt? I can see

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Speaker 2: where this would be a dilemma because if you do

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Speaker 2: escape out into the cold, I would suggest that they

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Speaker 2: would be going to a neighbor's house, knocking on the

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Speaker 2: door of the neighbors let us in, you know, there's

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Speaker 2: something wrong across the street or down the block, you know,

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Speaker 2: and at least get some separation from whatever threat may

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Speaker 2: be inside the house.

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Speaker 1: And remember, we've done stories set in the country in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds where they go and ring a bell

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Speaker 1: and everybody knows what that means. It's an emergency report

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Speaker 1: to this house. There's an emergency happening. And we've seen

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Speaker 1: people not go in. They just know something is wrong

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Speaker 1: where they see one body and they don't know what happens,

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Speaker 1: and they ring the bell. So, yeah, this is an

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Speaker 1: older woman in her sixties and two young domestic workers

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Speaker 1: who are very scared, and they're both standing at the door. Finally,

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Speaker 1: missus Hull gets the nerve up and she opens the

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Speaker 1: door to the den where ed was last seen. The

260
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Speaker 1: room is dark, the curtains are closed, and she looks

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Speaker 1: at This is a little historical context here. She looks

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Speaker 1: at something called a divan. Have you ever heard of

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Speaker 1: that before? A divan? It's kind of couch.

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Speaker 2: Something as tickling the back of my brain, but I

265
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Speaker 2: can't say for sure I've heard of that.

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Speaker 1: If you saw a photo of it, you would recognize it.

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Speaker 1: It's known as a fainting couch. I haven't read a

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Speaker 1: lot of research into why they called it a fainting couch,

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Speaker 1: but from what I can gather, it's because women wore

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Speaker 1: very tight corsets, which we know, and they sometimes lost consciousness.

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Speaker 1: And so this was a couch that didn't have a back.

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Speaker 1: It kind of had, you know, two curved fronts. Some

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Speaker 1: of them had two curved fronts, and they were usually

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Speaker 1: pretty fancy, but people sprawled out on them and took

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Speaker 1: a nap. So she's looking to this fainting couch and

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Speaker 1: she sees the outline of what looks like a person

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Speaker 1: on the couch, totally covered by cushions. She tells the

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Speaker 1: housekeeper call the family doctor, but to go to a

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Speaker 1: nearby pharmacy and use their phone to do it because

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Speaker 1: she doesn't want the kids to overhear what's going on.

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Speaker 1: She doesn't want them to be scared. So there's a

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Speaker 1: fifteen year old, a thirteen year old and a ten

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Speaker 1: year old asleep, we presume in the house because it's

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Speaker 1: early in the morning, and they're upstairs. And remember this

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Speaker 1: is three stories, this is a big house. They're on

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Speaker 1: the ground floor right now. So what do you think

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Speaker 1: so far? You know, she's seeing a figure on the couch.

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Speaker 1: She tells the housekeeper, you need to go to a

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Speaker 1: pharmacy and make the phone call. They I'm assuming have

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Speaker 1: a phone because they're fairly wealthy, they don't make the

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Speaker 1: phone call there, or or maybe they don't have a

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Speaker 1: phone and they have to leave the house.

293
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Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to assume that this body that's on

294
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Speaker 2: this divan is a dead body. And what significant is

295
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,240
Speaker 2: the body is covered by cushions. And so now this

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Speaker 2: is where assessing why the offender, if the offender is

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Speaker 2: the one that did it, you know, covered the body

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Speaker 2: with cushions, what is the psychological significance. Now this could

299
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Speaker 2: be to delay, you know, kind of hide the body,

300
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Speaker 2: delay you know, the discovery of the body. But Also,

301
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Speaker 2: in cases in which the victim's body is covered, usually

302
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Speaker 2: indicates that there's some sort of connection between the offender

303
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,960
Speaker 2: and the victim. And that's possible that the offender is

304
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,320
Speaker 2: demonstrating either remorse for what he or she has done

305
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Speaker 2: or is not wanting to take a look at what

306
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Speaker 2: he or she has done to the victim, you know,

307
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Speaker 2: And so this covered body could be significant as to

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Speaker 2: assessing who the offender might be related to the victim.

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Speaker 1: And this will become a lot more interesting when you

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Speaker 1: find out the details of this cover up, the literal

311
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:52,160
Speaker 1: cover up of the victim. This story is a lot

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Speaker 1: about reputation, people protecting their reputations, people being very scared

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Speaker 1: about losing their good name and what that means in

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Speaker 1: this society in nineteen oh three. So Maggie runs out

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Speaker 1: the door to go get the doctor. Maria Hull, the

316
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,280
Speaker 1: mother in law, shuts the door. She does not go

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Speaker 1: look at who the figure is. She does not know

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Speaker 1: if it's Ed or someone else. She shuts the door.

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Speaker 1: She waits for the doctor. The kids come downstairs, Hey,

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Speaker 1: what's going on? Good morning? And she says, listen, your

321
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,960
Speaker 1: dad's sick. He's in the den. And she gets breakfast

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Speaker 1: out and has them get ready for school. So I

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00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,800
Speaker 1: don't really know what she was thinking. She says, your

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Speaker 1: dad's sick. So we're assuming she must have thought it

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Speaker 1: looked like a man and that it must have been Ed.

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Speaker 1: Who else could it have been because Alice, her daughter,

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Speaker 1: is not living in the house currently, and it's early

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Speaker 1: in the morning, but she does not check on this person.

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Speaker 1: She is trying to tend to the kids and get

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Speaker 1: them out the door and waiting for the doctor. Is

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Speaker 1: that an odd response, do you think?

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Speaker 2: So you have the two domestic workers, who are you

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00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,480
Speaker 2: prior to the discovery of this body. You know, they're

334
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:04,359
Speaker 2: demonstrating fear. Even Maria is demonstrating a level of fear.

335
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Speaker 2: You know, this is not a normal occurrence, probably the

336
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Speaker 2: first time, even though she's sixty four years old, first

337
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:15,160
Speaker 2: time she is dealing with this scenario, and she's probably

338
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,760
Speaker 2: shaking inside, is my guess. But she's also trying to

339
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 2: hold things together for the kids, knowing that help is coming.

340
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Speaker 2: I don't have any concerns at this point in time

341
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Speaker 2: about you know, how Maria is behaving.

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Speaker 1: So the kids are off to school, they've had breakfast,

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Speaker 1: and doctor William Marcy arrives. Who's the family doctor. He's

344
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Speaker 1: close to the family, and we'll get now more details

345
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Speaker 1: on what he finds. He opens the door of the den.

346
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Speaker 1: It's still dark. He can't see anything. He's kind of

347
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Speaker 1: stumbling over different things as he's feeling his way to

348
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Speaker 1: the windows. He opens the Venetian blinds and they fall down,

349
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Speaker 1: and the whole room is flooded with light, and now

350
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Speaker 1: he sees what's going on. So on, this fainting couch

351
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,560
Speaker 1: is ed and now here are the weird details. He

352
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,200
Speaker 1: is naked except for an undershirt. He is not moving.

353
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Speaker 1: He's partially covered with pillows and rugs, and there's blood

354
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,840
Speaker 1: on the floor and on the walls. His body is

355
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 1: face down and the doctor can see that his head

356
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,879
Speaker 1: has been wrapped in a quilt. He checks for a pulse,

357
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,120
Speaker 1: No pulse. He unwinds the quilt and sees that somebody

358
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,240
Speaker 1: has beaten the shit out of the sky on his

359
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,520
Speaker 1: head with a blunt object. His skull is crushed and

360
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,600
Speaker 1: it looks like he's been hit by this doctor's estimate

361
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,160
Speaker 1: about ten times. He tries to wrap up the head

362
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 1: the way he found it in the quilt, and he

363
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:46,359
Speaker 1: tells missus Hull and calls the corner. This is not

364
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,240
Speaker 1: an illness, and this is not apparently a suicide. So

365
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 1: half naked covered, partially head covered, really beaten to death,

366
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,280
Speaker 1: crushed skull. I don't know why you're smiling, Paul.

367
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,159
Speaker 2: This is a terrible crue right now. Of course I

368
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,360
Speaker 2: have so many questions. Your description of the scene indicates

369
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:11,119
Speaker 2: that there was blood distributed in this room. So he's

370
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 2: received approximately ten blows to his head, I mean significant

371
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,160
Speaker 2: blows to his head. However, it doesn't appear that all

372
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 2: those blows are occurring. Well, he's on this the sofa,

373
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Speaker 2: you know, the divan. It sounds like potentially he and

374
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,680
Speaker 2: the offender, you know, they are moving around the room

375
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,040
Speaker 2: while blows are being inflicted. And of course this is

376
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 2: where i'd want to see the blood patterns. You know,

377
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,679
Speaker 2: is there spatter patterns? Are there blood pools in select areas?

378
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,920
Speaker 2: Or dripped patterns? Are there smears? You know, this would

379
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 2: help me kind of reconstruct the activities you know, prior

380
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,920
Speaker 2: to ed ending up on the divan. You know, however,

381
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,440
Speaker 2: you know, his state of dress in the den is significant.

382
00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 2: You know, he's not in his bedroom. It's not like

383
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 2: he got hot, changing to go to bed, you know,

384
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 2: to go get it into his pajamas. So why is

385
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 2: he nude from the waist down in the den? Was

386
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,639
Speaker 2: there potentially somebody he knew that he was going to

387
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,639
Speaker 2: have an encounter with a physical encounter with a sexual

388
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 2: encounter with And is that person the offender or did

389
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,480
Speaker 2: somebody else come in, you know, on catch Ed and

390
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 2: somebody else together? Of course I know nothing about Ed.

391
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 2: You know, is he is he completely intoxicated? Is he

392
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 2: a robust male? You know, this would help me assess,

393
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 2: you know, who the offender or the offender's physical characteristics

394
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 2: might be in order to be able to overpower Ed

395
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,680
Speaker 2: and then ultimately bludgeon him to death.

396
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 1: I have information on all of that. Let's start with

397
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 1: the weird reaction of doctor Marcy. So doctor Marcy is

398
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 1: the family physician. He's known them for a very long time.

399
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 1: The coroner shows up, looks at the scene and starts

400
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 1: to of course, right down murder because this looks like murderer.

401
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 1: And doctor Marcy stops him and said, is there a

402
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,679
Speaker 1: way we can list this death as a suicide? I know,

403
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 1: the coroner said, you know, my famo is saying the

404
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,640
Speaker 1: corner said, go kick Rocks. This is not happening. This

405
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 1: is not a suicide. Doctor Marcy says to the coroner.

406
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,919
Speaker 1: Here's the problem. There's been a lot of gossip about

407
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 1: this couple. They are about to get divorced, and I

408
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 1: am concerned that people are going to focus on, you know,

409
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,719
Speaker 1: something that they shouldn't be focusing on. He seems legitimately,

410
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,159
Speaker 1: I don't This is not going to turn into some

411
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 1: big conspiracy necessarily involving the doctor. But he is the

412
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 1: beginning of what I think is class privileged to a

413
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: lot of people in this society. They are well known,

414
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 1: and he is right now trying to save the reputation

415
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: of some of the people involved here by saying, is

416
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 1: there a way we can make this a suicide? And

417
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: you know, the corner and said, bug off, this is

418
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 1: not going to happen. So already I'm not sure how

419
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 1: he could have justified that, But already we're hearing that.

420
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 1: You know, this is an important man, and there are

421
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 1: going to be people in Buffalo who do not want

422
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: the details of what happens in this family to be

423
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 1: spelling out anywhere in the newspapers.

424
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 2: Well, and it also tells me that Doctor Marcy. I mean,

425
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 2: he's he's not a forensic pathologist, you know, so he's

426
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 2: probably not very well versed in terms of assessing the

427
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 2: injuries at this scene. At the crime scene. However, you know,

428
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: I think it's very obvious based on your description that

429
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 2: there is no way that Ed did this to himself.

430
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 2: Ten blows, crushed skull. You know this, Everything about this

431
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 2: is definitively homicide. The fact that doctor Marcy is trying

432
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,680
Speaker 2: to in essence propose let's let's rule this as a suicide.

433
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 2: What does doctor Marcy know about the rumors of what

434
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 2: Ed has been involved with and who is he trying

435
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: to protect?

436
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that will come out, and who other people

437
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 1: are trying to protect will come out, because boy, this

438
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 1: gets so complicated. This gets complicated. So I do have

439
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 1: a section about the investigation, but this will drive you crazy.

440
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: I'd like to get into what is a potential motive

441
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: to me, the most likely motive, which is a wacky

442
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: love triangle that speaks very much to Turn of this

443
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 1: century America and what we valued then and what reputation means. Then,

444
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: So are you okay with that? You know? Not a

445
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: lot more comes out of the autopsy other than somebody

446
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 1: beat the living shit out of this guy in the head.

447
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: But I do have a murder weapon. If we could

448
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: talk about that now, or we could talk about that later.

449
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 2: Well why don't Since you seem to be geared towards

450
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 2: this salacious love triangle, let's let's go down that path first.

451
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 1: Okay, that's an interesting path. Okay, remember I told you

452
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 1: this is called the Elmwood Avenue set, and these are

453
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: you know, twenty ish couples who hang out together throw

454
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: really raucous parties. They could have the drop your key

455
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: in the basket parties. But I'm not one hundred percent sure.

456
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 1: Here there are three couples who Alice and Ed socialized

457
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: with the most. There's so three, the Pains, the Warrens,

458
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,959
Speaker 1: and the Panels. And the Panels are who we're going

459
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 1: to hear about the most. Arthur Panell is a lawyer,

460
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: and he and Ed are best friends. And Arthur is

461
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 1: a lot wealthier than the verdicts. That doesn't really come

462
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: into play except to say that there's class hierarchy within

463
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: the higher class of the class hierarchy in Buffalo, and

464
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: Arthur is at the top. So he's an attorney He's

465
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: married to a woman named Carrie. She has a lot

466
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 1: of money. Also, she is one of Buffalo's most popular socialites.

467
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: So you have, you know, these two couples that are intermingling,

468
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 1: and now we're getting into problems. And the story becomes

469
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: even more interesting. Two years earlier, two years on New

470
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: Year's Day nineteen oh one, Carrie, Arthur's wife, comes to Ed,

471
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: Alice's husband and says, my husband, your wife are sleeping together.

472
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,719
Speaker 1: And Ed says, your nuts. That did not happen. My wife.

473
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 1: Alice is an honorable woman. She wouldn't have done this,

474
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: and Carrie says, I am sure of it. They were

475
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 1: together just the day before. So Ed feels sick to

476
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: his stomach. As you can imagine, He confronts Alice the

477
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: next day. He says, I've been thinking about this. Carrie

478
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: Panell came to me and said that you and Arthur

479
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 1: are having an affair. This guy's my best friend. And

480
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 1: did you do it or not? I think you did

481
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: the more I think about it. And Alice says, no,

482
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: I did not do this. I am totally faithful Ed,

483
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: which I think this is interesting. Ed tries to bluff her,

484
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: and he said, listen, I know that he's been writing

485
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: love letters to you because he knows that his wife, Alice,

486
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: is keeping a locked box he can't get into, and

487
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: it's relatively new in nineteen oh one. He says those

488
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: letters are in there, and she will later say that

489
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: he grabbed her by the throat and said, open the

490
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: damn box. I want to see these letters now. Of course,

491
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: as we know Ed's dead and there's no proof of that,

492
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: but she is making it sound like he was violent

493
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 1: with her. He has seen this box many times, he's

494
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: never questioned what's in it. But when it's opened, there

495
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 1: is a stack of love letters from Arthur to Alice.

496
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 1: And here becomes the very complicated life of Ed Verdict

497
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: and the way this man thinks. He is freaked out

498
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: not because his wife is sleeping with someone else, but

499
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 1: because this is not good for his reputation at all.

500
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: This is terrible for his reputation, and he's frightened. So

501
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: what do you think about all this so far?

502
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: Well, I think, as you're talking about, there is a

503
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: hierarchy within this elite club, and Arthur is at the top,

504
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 2: you know, so I could see where this sort of

505
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 2: this hierarchy comes into play. With Ed. You know. So

506
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 2: now Ed's the underling, he's friends with Arthur. But also,

507
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 2: how is it going to if he confronts Arthur about this?

508
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 2: How is that going to impact him and his social

509
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: status in this club? And even though ultimately there's there's

510
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 2: proof with these love letters between Arthur and Alice, it's

511
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 2: the domino effect. He confronts Arthur, I've got the letters.

512
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 2: What is Arthur going to do? Arthur has greater financial resources.

513
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 2: There's all sorts of things that I can see where

514
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 2: Ed could choose. I'm not going to do anything about this,

515
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: you know. I am concerned, you know, with how Ed

516
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 2: treated Alice over this. You know, I have said before

517
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: a great predictor of future violence is what a man

518
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: puts his hands around a woman's throat, you know. So

519
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: that speaks to me a little bit about possibly the

520
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: relationship Ed and Alice had, and that there was probably

521
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: some level of abuse that was occurring prior to that incident.

522
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: We believe Alice, and there is reason later on to say,

523
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: I don't know Alice. What motivates her to say certain things? Well,

524
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: let me tell you this is a long affair. So

525
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: here we go. There are these letters he reads the letters,

526
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: he is stressed out. Alice seems remorseful, and Ed hands

527
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: the letters over to Maria Hull, Alice's mom. We aren't

528
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: sure why. It could have been to keep him safe.

529
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: It could have been a heads up, this is what

530
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: your daughter's been doing with my best friend. I think

531
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: it was to keep him safe based on what is

532
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: going to happen, which is his just total extreme reaction

533
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: to having this salacious news come out that he's been

534
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: cheated on with his wife, with this top member of society,

535
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,239
Speaker 1: his best friend. He owns several different companies, he has

536
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: a lot of money, there's a lot of people depending

537
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: on him, and so he's very scared. And this seems

538
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: so different from our time period. Now, you know, a

539
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: cheating I know different societies feel different ways about it,

540
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: but his reaction, I think is a pretty typical reaction

541
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: for turn of the century America on you've been cheated on,

542
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: and what do we do next to save our reputations?

543
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: Sure, and I see handing the letters over to Maria

544
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: Alice's mom as maybe away Ed could see Maria as

545
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 2: somebody who has influence over Alice, and maybe Maria could

546
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 2: talk to her daughter and say, hey, you need to

547
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 2: knock it off. You know, this is not a good thing.

548
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: I think Maria would probably have that type of influence

549
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: over Alice, would be my guess.

550
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a good assumption. We find out

551
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: some more information about the affair. It started two years

552
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: before that, so it started in eighteen ninety eight, So

553
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: when he is killed, it is nineteen oh three. We're

554
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,479
Speaker 1: talking about. This has been happening for five years. And

555
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: what happens is that Panels had invited the Verdicts to

556
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: visit Arthur's alma mater, which was Yale in Connecticut, but

557
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: Alice was the only one who could go, you know,

558
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: ed had to work. And it sounds like Carrie, who

559
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: is Arthur's wife, wasn't around very much. And this is

560
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: how Arthur and Alice bonded and started to get together.

561
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: But this is becoming a pretty long affair here by

562
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: the time he discovers it in nineteen oh one. I

563
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: think it is much easier, of course, in this time period,

564
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: to get away with just about anything. I think, you know,

565
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: there's no cell phones, there's no I saw this text,

566
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: there's no I saw this email. And so for me,

567
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: when I first read this, I thought, boy, this has

568
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: been going on two years. They're really that good to

569
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: cover up an affair for two years when they both

570
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: are in the same social circle, they're both in the

571
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: same city, they are intermingling as couples, and half of

572
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: the couples don't know that the other half are having

573
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: an affair with each other. But in this time period,

574
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: it would not have been to get away with it.

575
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: No, and I can see that for sure. It's just that,

576
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 2: you know, in nineteen oh one, once Arthur's wife comes

577
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: forward and basically exposes this affair, now that's out in

578
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 2: the open. It's understood that it's happening at least within

579
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 2: these two families, these two couples. Now what's the relationship like,

580
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 2: not only between Arthur and Alice, but Arthur and Ed.

581
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: Over the course of the next two years, up until

582
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: Ed has found bludgeoned to death.

583
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: Well after the discovery of these letters in nineteen oh one,

584
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: Ed says, I'm out of here for a few days.

585
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: I need some space. He goes to a hotel. Eventually

586
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: he forgives Alice and decides he wants to move back

587
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: into the family house. I think, knowing what I know

588
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: about Ed. That part of this, of course, was it

589
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: would have been really odd for people to see this

590
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: man staying in a hotel, you know, for an extended

591
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: peero of time and his wife at home, and he

592
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: was concerned about his reputation. The issue is going to

593
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: your question about what happens with Arthur and Alice. They

594
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: don't stop sleeping together, and Ed is furious. He says,

595
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: I think that you were doing this again. He comes

596
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: home early, secretly one day from work when she's not

597
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: expecting him, and he sees that she's not there. When

598
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: she gets back home, he says, were you with Arthur?

599
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: And she says yes, So this is the drama. He

600
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: goes back to the hotel. She says, come back. It

601
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: goes back and forth for quite a while. Ed is

602
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: suspicious all the time. He cannot trust her. He's checking

603
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: the mail religiously, but there are no letters from Arthur.

604
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: I don't know why he's not handwriting her letters and

605
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: you know, handing him to her. But I guess these

606
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: letters are coming through the post. He goes to the

607
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: post office and listen to this. Ed decides he's so

608
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: worked up about this, and after she keeps saying come back,

609
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: and then you know, the affair is discovered in and

610
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: he leaves and then she says come back, and he

611
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: comes back. He goes to the post office. Ed goes

612
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: to the post office and he says to a worker

613
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 1: who doesn't know him, that I am Alice's brother. She

614
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: gave me a key to the post office, but I

615
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 1: don't have it anymore. And the postal clerk believes him,

616
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: gives him the key, and it turns out he's right.

617
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: There's another stack of letters and he is completely, I

618
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 1: mean beyond angry. At this point. He doesn't confront Alice.

619
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: He waits. He is checking on more letters. He steams

620
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: the letters open, he's copying them, he's sealing them back up,

621
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: he's putting them back into the po box. So she

622
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: gets him and doesn't suspect anything. And these letters are

623
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: arranging meetings between Alice and Arthur, but they've coded the

624
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: times and places. I mean, this is I'm telling you,

625
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: this is nineteen oh three like Superspy, except not government

626
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: secrets but sex. I guess is what's happening here?

627
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, And do you have any information as to where

628
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 2: Arthur and Alice are actually meeting up? Is this like

629
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 2: a hotel?

630
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: Is this it seems like various hotels, is the impression

631
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: I'm getting. It's not at their houses. And so I

632
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: think the idea that I'm getting is that it would

633
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: be improper for the two of them to meet without

634
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: their spouses. This is not you and I getting coffee somewhere,

635
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: you know, nineteen oh three would have been a little

636
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: bit different. And so it sounds like they're they're doing

637
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: this letter exchange to kind of come up with different locations.

638
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 1: But coded, I mean, she must know that he is checking,

639
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: that Ed is checking, and this just seems to be escalating.

640
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: And this is where I think a lot of people

641
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: would say, Okay, forget it, let's get a divorce. But

642
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: that does not seem to be happening with either Ed

643
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 1: or Alice, or frankly with Arthur and Carrie.

644
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And are these couples going to these social functions,

645
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 2: you know, during this time as Arthur and Carrier together

646
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 2: and Ed and Alice are together and they're out, you know,

647
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 2: at this Elmwood, you know, social club and just pretending

648
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 2: nothing's going on, or does the relationship between the Panels

649
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 2: and the Burkharts, does that just completely dissolve after this

650
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: affair is found.

651
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: Nope, okay. I mean Arthur the lawyer is freaked out too.

652
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: He does not want Ed and Alice to get a

653
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: divorce at all. He doesn't want to get a divorce.

654
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: He doesn't want to leave his wife. He has a

655
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: great business, lots of money. This will ruin him too.

656
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 1: He is willing to play ball. Ed is willing to

657
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: play ball and pretend like everything's okay even though things

658
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: are clearly not okay, and he seems to be his

659
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 1: mental health really seems to be devolving, and he's doing

660
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: all of this stuff. Arthur I don't think is okay,

661
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: but he is trying to pretend because these are two

662
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 1: men who value their reputations. Alice, it seems like could

663
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: give a fig about anybody's reputation because she actually switches

664
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: out her own wedding ring, the ring that she had

665
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: in her ceremony, to Ed with a ring that Arthur

666
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: bought her. I mean, what is she thinking? That's ballsy

667
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: for nineteen oh three. Not necessarily that somebody would recognize

668
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: it outside of the family necessarily, but certainly Ed is

669
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: maybe the fifteen year old in the thirteen year old,

670
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: so she is in it deep right now with Arthur.

671
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: So New Year's Day of nineteen oh one is when Carrie,

672
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 1: Arthur's wife goes to Ed and says they're sleeping together.

673
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 1: So this kind of going back and forth, steaming open

674
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: envelopes and coded locations and all of this is five

675
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: months long until May, and finally Ed says to Alice,

676
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: you're sleeping with him. She does not know that he

677
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 1: has been doing all this stuff with the letters, and

678
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: he says, I'm kicking you out. I've had enough of this.

679
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: I don't care how it looks. She goes to Atlantic City.

680
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: I don't know why, but it sounds like that's the

681
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: place where she wants to be. Her mom's stays with Ed,

682
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: presumably to take care of the kids. I don't think

683
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: it's a commentary on whether or not missus Hulb, you know,

684
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: is taking anybody's side. But she stays there. Maybe she

685
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: doesn't have anywhere else to go. She Alice is writing

686
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: Ed all kinds of letters in Atlantic City saying please

687
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: let me come back home. He says, I am divorcing you,

688
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: and he starts the divorce proceedings, but ultimately again totally

689
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: backs down totally caves and he says, come back home.

690
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: Do you promise not to cheat on me? And she

691
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: says yes, And we know that's not what's going to happen.

692
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: So this back and forth must be absolute torture for

693
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: these two couples. I don't know what anybody else thinks,

694
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 1: although a couple of more couples are going to get

695
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 1: drawn into this. I don't know what the kids. They

696
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: must be sensing all kinds of stuff that's happening with

697
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 1: their parents, but it is just several years of back

698
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: and forth until he ends up dead.

699
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, this just sounds miserable for everybody involved. Yeah, you know,

700
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 2: and to kind of feels stuck. You know, you could

701
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,439
Speaker 2: see where it's like, you know, the emotions are running deep.

702
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,919
Speaker 2: We know Ed ends up being killed, and so this

703
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: is where I'm very curious to see how these relationships

704
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 2: develop and who else gets pulled into it.

705
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: I don't know if we've ever talked about relationships this much.

706
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 1: We usually spend a lot more time on forensics and

707
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: the investigation, but I think for this case, it's really

708
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: important to just see where everybody's head is at. So,

709
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 1: as we predicted, Alice does not stay away from Arthur

710
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: for very long. She is deeply in love with this man,

711
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: and Ed quietly seethes. For a year, all of nineteen

712
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: oh two, they are having an affair. He is reading

713
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: her letters. He calls a private investigator and he tails her.

714
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: It seems like to friends a couple of people who

715
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: know about this, that Ed is trying to gather evidence

716
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: in this divorce proceedings. He's brought her back home because

717
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: it sounds like it's easier to catch her doing things

718
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: if she is in Buffalo and not in Atlantic City,

719
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 1: or you know, he is hoping beyond hope that she's

720
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: going to have a change of heart. But he just

721
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 1: sounds like he's doing some pretty wacky things. So let

722
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: me just kind of go through a couple more things.

723
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: It's private detectives he now has hired. A couple of

724
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: them say that Alice is going to be with Arthur

725
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: and an apartment that Arthur the idiot has rented specifically

726
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,280
Speaker 1: for sex. And Ed goes to this apartment. He knocks

727
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: on the door. There's scuffling, people getting dressed, I'm presuming,

728
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 1: and then Arthur answers the door. He says, Alice isn't here,

729
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: she jumps out the window and clumbs. I mean, this

730
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: is like a bad TV show. She jumps out the

731
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 1: window and climbs down the balcony. I mean, I don't

732
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 1: know how else this would end, except either in violence

733
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 1: or somebody giving up and you know, having a divorce.

734
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: But it just keeps moving forward and forward and forward.

735
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: And by the end of nineteen oh two, Alice is

736
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: back in Atlantic City and everybody, including Arthur, is begging

737
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: Ed to not divorce her, Please don't do it. And

738
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: I will say, Paul, definitely, in the seventeen hundreds and

739
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: probably in the eighteen hundreds, people did not often get divorces.

740
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: It was expensive. It was like an act of the

741
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: government to get a divorce. They would just leave separate lives.

742
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: They would lead separate lives. They would just get different households.

743
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: They wouldn't remarry, but you know, they would have common

744
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: law spouses. I don't know what happened here, but Ed

745
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 1: seems to be the unstable one at this point.

746
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's you know in many ways. You know, there's

747
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: this perception that he's gathering evidence for future divorce proceeding.

748
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: And sure that may be what I would gather as

749
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,280
Speaker 2: the sword of almost the side effect of his behaviors.

750
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 2: But in some ways there's a level of stocking that

751
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: as Ed is doing. You know, he's jealous, he's hurt,

752
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 2: you know, he's feeling dejected another man, his wife is

753
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 2: seeing another man as somebody that's more attractive and more

754
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 2: wanted than he is. And so that I see a

755
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 2: lot of what Ed is doing is more out of

756
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 2: the jealousy than anything else. And you know, at this

757
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:21,280
Speaker 2: stage within this lover's triangle, if I were to predict something,

758
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 2: I would predict Arthur would end up dead with the

759
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 2: way Ed is behaving.

760
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: Yep or Alice, I guess, yeah, somebody, somebody other than Ed.

761
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 2: So that's where you know, I'm kind of listening to

762
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 2: this going Okay, now, how how does Ed end up

763
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 2: dead and basically nude, indicating he's possibly hooking up with

764
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 2: somebody inside his own house? Who is that? So I'm

765
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,720
Speaker 2: I'm all ears, Kate, keep beating me details.

766
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,240
Speaker 1: Well, let me read these two paragraphs. I don't usually

767
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: say two paragraphs, but let me read these two paragraphs,

768
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: because it's bananas to me. This is again turn of

769
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: the century, the way people are thinking. So end of nineteen.

770
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: You know two. This has been two years of hell

771
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: for Ed and not great for Alice either or Arthur

772
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 1: or Carrie. So she goes back to Atlantic City. Arthur

773
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 1: visits her, and Ed finally does it. He actually starts

774
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: to file for divorce. Carrie and Arthur, the couple. The

775
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: married couple visit Ed and they say, please don't do this,

776
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: Please take Alice back and just go back to normal.

777
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: They did not want the city to know their business.

778
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: And if a divorce goes to court, which is what

779
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 1: was going to happen, everybody would know what is happening

780
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: and it would humiliate everyone. And listen to this. Arthur says,

781
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: I will Ed kill you, and then I will kill myself.

782
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: If you divorce Alice, you will ruin me. And Ed says,

783
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: bug off, I'm doing this. I will share custody of

784
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: the children if you divorced your wife and marry my wife.

785
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: Everybody wants everything done properly. Two married people splitting, you know,

786
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: custody with the kids. So it is one hundred percent

787
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: about appearances.

788
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and right now we're hearing about Arthur,

789
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 2: Alice and Ed. But what is Carrie doing during this

790
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: entire time. Is she just sitting on the sidelines.

791
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretending like everything's okay, because she has her own

792
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: reputation to deal with. She is the most popular social

793
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: lighte in Buffalo. She doesn't want any of this coming out.

794
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm just going to kind of table carry for

795
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 2: the time being, so you.

796
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 1: Know, I this reminds me a tiny bit of the

797
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: story that we had talked about before. It was about

798
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: the social lighte in Boston who was murdered and her

799
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: body was dismembered and parts of it were found in

800
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 1: Boston Harbor. I think you probably remember that case. I

801
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: do so. With that case, the person who ultimately ends

802
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: up murdering her was a handyman who had attacked her.

803
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: It sounded like had tried to physically assault her. Grace

804
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: Asque was the victim's name, and maybe sexually assault her.

805
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: She got him off and locked the door. He ends

806
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: up killing her later on. She didn't report it to

807
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,919
Speaker 1: police because she did not want the publicity. She did

808
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: not want the publicity of some handyman trying to assault her.

809
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 1: She just didn't want any bad publicity. And that is

810
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 1: the mindset of this time period. We don't want the publicity,

811
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: and Arthur's going as so far as saying, I will

812
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: kill you and I will kill myself if you go

813
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: through with this. This is the end of all of us.

814
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Carrie probably one of the primary sources of

815
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 2: her social status is Arthur. So she loses Arthur, then

816
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 2: she loses status.

817
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: She does. It's embarrassing for her. She has and I

818
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 1: think a key for Carrie is that she is her

819
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: own family money, which to me, at first, I thought, well, okay,

820
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: she can live. If you know, he divorces her, everything

821
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: will be fine because she's got her own family money.

822
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: But with that money comes reputation, and who knows what

823
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: her family would do if she were a divorcee in

824
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 1: nineteen oh three, that would not have been a good situation.

825
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 1: So everybody is tense here. Alice, for her part, hires

826
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 1: her own private detective to tail ed. The detective comes

827
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 1: back to Alice and says, her husband's doing some weird stuff.

828
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: He's talking to one of your friends whose name is

829
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 1: Gertrude Paine. He has taken her to a local candy shop.

830
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: And what turns out to be it sounds like the

831
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: case is that the Pains are having a lot of

832
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: financial trouble, and Gertrude goes to Ed and says, you know,

833
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: I really need money, and he lends her the money

834
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: without telling the husband. This is more of a friend relationship.

835
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: Investigators will likely find out more than anything. But this

836
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 1: is another person to add to the list. The husband,

837
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,720
Speaker 1: of course, is questioned by the worters and he said

838
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,359
Speaker 1: they're not having an affair. It's no big deal. He's

839
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 1: a nice guy. And I wish she hadn't gone behind

840
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 1: my back to get money from him. I could have

841
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: done that. But again, reputations. And there's another couple called

842
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: the Warrens who are in the same group of friends.

843
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,760
Speaker 1: They're starting divorce proceedings of their own. You know, there

844
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: are probably a lot of interminglings. We don't know what's what.

845
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 1: But Alice is now pissed when she finds out about

846
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: Gertrude Payne, who's a good friend of hers. Even though

847
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: it sounds innocent, she follows her own countersuit for divorce

848
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: and she says that Ed is having a bunch of affairs,

849
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: including one with you know, somebody that she knows really

850
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: well named Helen Warren. There are two other women that

851
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: she mentions but we don't have their names. It sounds

852
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: like Gertrude might be another one. There's not much evidence

853
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: for any of this, but people in their social circles

854
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: say that it seems like Ed and Helen were going

855
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: to get engaged after these divorces were fine. So if

856
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: this is true, if he is sleeping with Helen Warren,

857
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: who is going through a divorce, which again would have

858
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: been pretty unusual in nineteen oh three, I looked up

859
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: the stat pole, it was like less than one percent

860
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: of marriages ended in divorce in this time period, so

861
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: really unusual. Then this was new, and maybe this was

862
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 1: the impetus for him to finally say, forget everybody, I

863
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 1: am divorcing. This is what's happening, because this does seem

864
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 1: like he had finally made the decision to divorce. I

865
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 1: know that was a lot of information, but it sounds

866
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: like this thing with Helen Warren could have been legitimate,

867
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: just based on the timing of this planned divorce. But

868
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 1: there's no real evidence that he was sleeping with her

869
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 1: or planning to do anything. It was just sort of

870
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: gossip more than anything else.

871
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 2: I want to point something out is it doesn't matter

872
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 2: if it's legitimate or not, it's perception. So if there

873
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,919
Speaker 2: is a rumor going around, Let's say you know that

874
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 2: Ed and Helen we're getting together, and somebody close to Helen,

875
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 2: her husband or another family member gets outraged by hearing

876
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 2: that rumor and perceives it's true. That's motive. So that's

877
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 2: where Okay, Now, because of allegations are flying back and

878
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 2: forth during now a very contentious dissolution of a relationship,

879
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:26,439
Speaker 2: this pulls in other people as potential suspects and Ed's

880
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: homicide even though Ed may not have been doing anything

881
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 2: directly with somebody, let's say a wife, this is now

882
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 2: stirring the pot so to speak. There's churn going on

883
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 2: within this social network that opens up the suspect pool

884
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 2: as to who could have.

885
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: Killed Ed, and it feels like a lot of people.

886
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: Let's get to the investigation. So now you know everything,

887
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: and now you know why go through all of this

888
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: before we start talking about a man who's been found

889
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:00,800
Speaker 1: half naked, covered with pillows and a head wrapped in

890
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 1: a quilt and somebody beat the shit out of his head.

891
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 1: There's a lot going on to this, Okay, So the

892
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,399
Speaker 1: divorce is for sure moving forward in early nineteen oh three,

893
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: after Christmas. It's scheduled in court for early March. He

894
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: is killed. It seems like February twenty seventh, so we

895
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 1: are mire one to two weeks away from this going

896
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: to open court. So here's what happens based on what

897
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: the housekeeper says happened that night and what missus Hull,

898
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: the mother in law, says happened that night. So here, investigators,

899
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 1: Now we're back. We're present tense at this point. So

900
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 1: on the night of Thursday, the night before he's discovered,

901
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: he comes home from work. He has bought a bottle

902
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: of pre mixed cocktail, which is pretty unusual for him.

903
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: He's not a big drinker. And he has dinner with

904
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: his three kids, three girls, his mother in law, and

905
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: then everybody hangs out in the back parlor for a while.

906
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 1: He seems to be in pretty good space. It's everybody

907
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: except ed goes upstairs to bed around nine thirty. At

908
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: nine forty five, he passes by his mother in law's

909
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 1: room and through the door they say good night to

910
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 1: each other, and that is the last time she spoke

911
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: to him and the kids saw him. He is apparently

912
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: back downstairs in the den, so he says good night

913
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: at nine forty five to Maria Hull. About thirty minutes later,

914
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: ten eighteen, the cook Maggie comes home. She's been out

915
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: and about. She knows it's ten eighteen because the household

916
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: staff has a ten thirty curfew, and she looks at

917
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: the clock and is worried, but she makes it home

918
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,439
Speaker 1: in time. She goes to the back door, she turns around,

919
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: locks it behind her. She runs into Ed at ten

920
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: eighteen to nineteen, very briefly in the hall. He's in

921
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: his underwear and he's kind of embarrassed. I'm assuming wearing

922
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: a shirt. I don't think he's walking around, you know,

923
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 1: in briefs or boxes or anything. But he's a little embarrassed,

924
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,959
Speaker 1: and she goes upstairs. She knows that he goes back

925
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 1: into the den. She can hear him. She goes up

926
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 1: to her room, which she shares with the maid, and

927
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: between ten thirty and eleven she hears someone filling the

928
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: furnace with coal, which is in the den, in which

929
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: Ed usually does that time of night. She falls asleep,

930
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 1: and then of course he's dead the next day. So

931
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: something happens between when they discover him early in the

932
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 1: morning and about eleven o'clock at night. There is an

933
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 1: open window and an open door the next day, but

934
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: the cook said, I locked the back door behind me,

935
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 1: so I know at least that door was locked. And

936
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:34,720
Speaker 1: that is that until our next episode where we really

937
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:35,399
Speaker 1: get into it.

938
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 2: You're going to leave me hanging.

939
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: I am, I am. There's a lot more to this story,

940
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 1: you know, things that happen to the people in this

941
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,879
Speaker 1: story that are in some ways really heartbreaking. So take

942
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 1: a break, go, get on your mountain bike, do something

943
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 1: to think about this case or not think about it.

944
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 2: Oh I think, I think yeah. The next the episode

945
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 2: to hear the might be a bourbon episode for me.

946
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 2: The way the thing is going.

947
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 1: Buddy, I think this is a double bourbon episode one

948
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: for you.

949
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm looking forward to it.

950
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: Okay, see you in a week.

951
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 2: Okay. Bye.

952
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,399
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our.

953
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 2: Sources and show notes go to exactly rightmedia dot com

954
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

955
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

956
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

957
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

958
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

959
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

960
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

961
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

962
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: Barry Bones.

963
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

964
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

965
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now

966
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

967
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now