WEBVTT - The Science of Brain Wiping 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.680 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:14.080 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:16.760 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. All Right, 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:20.360 we were just talking about this. Everyone has this memory 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.760 or generally more than one, mary that like some sort 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:27.720 of embarrassment from the past and enters your mind. And 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:31.440 what happens. You just curl up in a fetal position 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.640 because it's such an awful memory and you just think, 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:36.680 why why I was just sitting here, I was just 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:38.680 doing the laundry, and then you just struck out of 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:41.800 nowhere and this memory. And I won't describe it because 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:46.400 I don't know. It's awful and embarrassing. Yeah, it haunts 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:48.720 me year after year. Yeah, I don't happen to me. 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:50.159 I'll think of like something that I said it was 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:55.560 just really stupid once. Um. Generally not on on this podcast, 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:57.280 you know, but but something to see. I think of 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:00.160 the things I say on this podcast and not crimming time, 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:02.680 but you know it, Okay, It'll enter my mind and 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:05.959 I'll find myself having to um kind of like do 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:07.520 a la la la la la, I can't hear you 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:09.720 kind of a thing. We're all we're all combat it 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.679 with just like a really nonsense phrase like and then 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:15.480 he turned into a goat. Like that used to be 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.160 a staple where I would think of something something embarrassing 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:19.280 in the past, and it would be like, and then 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:20.479 he turned into a goat, and then he turned into 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:22.520 a goat, and that would like the image of something 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.560 turning into a goat would help rid myself of of 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.480 self stabbing with that memory. Well, not only is that 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:32.520 a tip, but a little insight into the mind of 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.039 Robert Lamb. Goat turn absolutely good. I'm richly amused by them. 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:39.920 I see that. But yeah, this this is the problem, 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:44.360 and I think that some people would willingly undergo their 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.880 memories or specific memories being erased if they could. Yeah, yeah, 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:49.640 what if you could go in and say, all right, 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:51.840 instead of just having to go through this moment where 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:53.520 I drop into a fetal position or have to think 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.560 something stupid to combat something stupid, or then, how what 0:01:57.640 --> 0:01:59.560 if I could just go in and have it removed, 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:01.680 Go into the doc and say, hey, I've got this 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:03.440 memory I want removed, and they're like, all right, well 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:05.000 think about it for a second. All right, I'm thinking 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:09.520 about it. Now and then whap is that it's very possible. Yeah, 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.880 it's very possible. And there this is something that came 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.919 up when when we were attending the World Science Festival 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.760 in New York, I attended a panel of about the 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:22.720 Unbearable Lightness of memory. And there it was just like 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.120 one of these sessions where they had had a number 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.520 of these guys, um and and women that were just 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.040 experts in the field of memory and are just on 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.760 the cutting edge of of seeing you know, of of 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.399 our understanding of memory and our exploitation of that understanding. 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.040 And so it was a very mind blowing a couple 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.320 of hours. And this is a topic that came up 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:45.840 and that these guys were saying, Yeah, within our lifetime. 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:48.359 Some were saying, within the next ten years, we will 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.400 have the technology to go in and selectively erase memories, 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.400 because we are doing it on rats currently, um, you know, 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.920 in some cases. So obviously that technology is going to 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:01.240 find its way into the mainstream. It is just a 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:03.800 matter of how and when and um, will we be 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:06.560 willing to undergo and why would we which we're going 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:08.320 to talk about today, but we're going to talk a 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.400 little bit more specifically about memories before we go into that, 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.120 and we are going to talk about technology that exists 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:18.520 now to wipe the memory in a clean fashion, not 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:21.840 in a brain damage way, but in a rat because 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.639 we all know that you can erase memories by damaging 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:27.640 the brain. But that's that's kind of dumb. That's like 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.800 saying you can erase an ink by burning the paper. 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:34.360 That's not really erasing the baby out with the bath water, 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:36.400 right right, So we'll get into some of that as well. 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:38.400 But yeah, first we need to talk about exactly what 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:42.280 memory is, um, which is one of the big questions 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.040 that's again it's when we're continuing to answer and one 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:47.880 that we've been asking as long as we've had memory, 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:52.240 as long as we've had had intelligence among the species. Well, well, 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:54.080 let's lay down some nuts and bolts because this is 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:56.480 going to be important in some of the discussions that 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:00.120 we UM have later on about actually how we how 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.840 we would erase a specific memory. UM. So, what is 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.320 happening when you're making a memory? Basically, you have nerve 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.440 cells that are communicating by sending electrical signals which trigger 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:13.440 the release of chemicals across tying gaps called synapses. When 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:16.560 these are the neural junctions, and then as one cell 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:19.880 speaks to another, chemical changes at the synapse make it 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:23.000 easier for the signal to pass. Okay, so this is important. 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.719 If only a few signals are sent, this transforment transformation 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.840 among a network of cells is temporary, resulting in short 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:33.760 term memory. But if the signals keep coming through changes 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.840 that the most active snaps has become permanent and they 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:41.320 create long term memories. It is literally an anatomical change 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:43.480 to your brain. So it's I mean, it was just 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:46.520 if you look at it this way, different day, different brain. Yeah, 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.240 I was. I was really fascinated by that viewpoint, the 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.480 idea that that at the addition of a permanent memory 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:55.360 is the an anatomical difference in the brain. Because we 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:57.839 you know, we've talked about before this whole question of 0:04:57.839 --> 0:04:59.320 like trying to figure out who and what we are 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.560 and the brains and ability to perceive itself, even if 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:07.360 we are completely atheistic in our in our viewpoints, even 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.640 if we're just the most scientific, hard boiled I don't 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:14.720 believe in ghosts kind of guy, you or goal I'm 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:19.240 I'm using guy in the non gender specific I know 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.520 you are, but but yeah, even if you just you know, 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:25.400 you don't believe in any of this nonsense, you still 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:28.200 can fall into this trap of of sort of thinking 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.800 of yourself is this non corporeal thing that just happens 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:34.280 during the bodies and we end up we end up 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:38.760 not thinking about ourselves our memory as a physical manifestation. Yeah, 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:40.880 And it is interesting to you to think of how 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:46.240 we regard ourselves mainly by what memories are are we 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:50.120 what shapes us? Our idea of ourselves is composed of memories, 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:54.839 right right? Um, So knowing that memory making is really 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.760 very a fragile process and um, and not as straight 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:01.480 forward as straightforward as we thought, really sort of is 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:06.520 a game changer and how we perceive ourselves and and 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.919 just it's amazing to think that we are constructing this 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:15.239 reality out of a really flawed process, right, because flawed 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:19.680 in a sense. But but basically it comes down to 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.280 the way we used to think about let's let's talk 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:25.440 about that because because ultimately the way it works is 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:27.360 the way it works, and it works that way due 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.440 to um, you know, rigorous evolution, uh, and it and 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:32.920 it is important that it works the way it works. 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:35.120 But the way you're not not going to evolution. I'm 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:37.680 just saying that it's not as ironclad as and we thought. 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:41.880 Our memories are ephemeral little things. Yes, and so just 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.200 as an example, the old way of looking at how 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.160 how memories worked, want a little something like this, you 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:51.560 would learn something, UM, let's say you would learn that. UM. 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:54.000 Let's let's think about what's the what's the most recent 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:59.160 thing you learned about cicada's and their lifespan? Okay, well 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:03.760 let's say you, um, you learned that cicadas um, some 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:08.160 species of cicadas uh will are a thirteen year lifecycle 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:09.840 where they go to ground for thirteen years. All right, 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:12.360 So you learn that, all right, and then you store 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:16.120 it and then when you go to retrieve it, you 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:18.440 retrieve it. So it's like I take the fact, I 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.080 put it in the storage drawer the brain, and then 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:24.880 I retrieve it. And there's there's no update process going 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:27.120 on here. This is the old model. And then if 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.320 you were to say then you were suddenly to learn, oh, 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:32.560 well there's thirteen and seventeen here. That's an addition, that's 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.560 an update, but there's not really an update process going on. 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.720 It's just like, oh, I'll store that memory too, well, 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:43.480 the the current view is the reconsolidation view, and this 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:46.240 is this is a little more complicated, and this is 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:49.680 this is how it would go. You'll learn the fact, right, okay, 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:54.840 cicadas years, you store the fact, all right, and then 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:58.560 you retrieve the fact. But when you retrieve the fact, uh, 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:02.640 it goes through up date, reconsolidation, and then it's stored again. 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:06.480 So the idea is that every time we reach into 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.280 the storage center of our brain and retrieve something, be 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:14.040 it a little fact about Cicada's or our family history 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.880 or something about ourselves, we retrieve it and we update 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:21.240 it and then we put it back. So it's it's 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.640 ever changing. There's no such thing as this memory. Like 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:27.640 the memories are not set in stone. They are um there. 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:29.680 They are these continued things that alter every time we 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:31.280 touch it. It's kind of like if it we're a 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:33.360 police case. You know, they're always talking about like the 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:35.719 chain of um, not the chain of command. What is 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:39.200 it with evidence? Uh, it's like a chain of possession 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.920 or something. I'll give a chain of obsession. Yeah, one 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.720 of our more crime oriented or police work oriented of 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:47.560 yours will correctus on this, but but yeah, they're very 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.600 concerned with with who has the control of the evidence 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.280 at any given moment, because they could flowt they could 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:55.840 they could get fingerprints on it or tamper with it 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:59.600 in some uh some way, shape or form. So if 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:02.160 you look at memory, like that memory, every time you 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:03.880 get it out, somebody's getting their paws on it. I 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.040 mean you're getting your paws on it. That you're adding 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.319 new information to it, and some of that new information 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.800 and you add may not be good information, well right, right, 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:15.080 And when you're sharing that information, you're corroborating some of 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.040 your information, right, and you're adding to it, and you 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:20.679 know you've got the whole human experience sort of coming 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:23.680 in and coloring that experience that memory, that data. Yeah, 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:28.839 Like here's an example. Let's see you have She's a 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.480 who's a childhood friend of yours, Cheryl. All right, Let's 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.160 say you when you first meet Cheryl and you're your 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:39.200 friends with Cheryl and uh, and then you you go 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:43.520 out roller skating and you fall down and then you're 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:47.640 trying to go backwards again fancy, and then later on, um, 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:49.800 you have a falling out with Cheryl and you begin 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:55.240 to see think of Cheryl as um your enemy Okay, Yeah, 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:59.120 so then you could conceivably retrieve that memory of you 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:02.160 falling down pushed me exactly. You add in this new 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.960 information where Cheryl is the great adversary, and and now 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:10.240 the memory is restored in a slightly different form. Now 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.559 this isn't necessarily a false memory then, has it or 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.840 a cover memory? No? No, but it's potentially flawed. It's 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.600 also potentially more accurate. Who knows, maybe Cheryl did push you, 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:21.120 but it's but it's changing. What I thought was really 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:25.520 interesting is how much emotion can really determine what sort 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.800 of memory you get out of an experience. And you 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.439 had a really interesting um example from the panel that 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:34.839 had to do with nine eleven. Right, Yeah, these uh, 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.920 you know, neuroscientists are are kind of awesome, and they're 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:40.240 always I mean, you can you can say that they're 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.720 a little too focused on their work in this particular example, 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:45.760 but but I think it's it's very telling. Nine eleven occurs, 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:49.680 you know, tragic, horrible day for anyone involved. But these 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:52.640 guys were instantly thinking, all right, this is a great example. 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:55.920 This is a great opportunity for us to test how 0:10:55.960 --> 0:11:00.000 our memory reacts with traumatic situations. Because every because anybody 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:01.520 you can ask that question, you know, it's like what 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:03.440 were you doing on nine eleven? Or where were you 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.400 when Kennedy was shot? For older members of the audience, 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:07.960 you know, there would be some sort of people always 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:11.160 have really specific answers. I was in my living room, 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:16.800 and uh, it's not necessarily accurate, right, Yeah, they did 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:18.640 this study where they were they were act They were 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.360 checking everybody's memory, doing test on it to see how 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:25.200 accurate their memory was of their of their like what 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:27.079 they were wearing, what they were eating for breakfast on 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:31.040 nine eleven versus other times, and uh, and there was 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:35.160 there was actually less accuracy for nine eleven. And it's 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:41.160 because there's less less activity uh in the in the 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:44.560 pair of hippocampus, which is involved in the details, and 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:47.120 it's um and it ends up being more of an 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:51.120 emotional response. Amygdala is really active in this case, right, 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.080 The amigdeala is the emotional seat, and that's where all 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:58.000 the activity is of when forming these these traumatic memories, 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:00.840 right where it's the the detail or did uh hi. 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.280 Hippocampus is taking a back seat to that, and so 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.640 the pair of hippocampus is noting would normally note like 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:09.719 what you were wearing, what time it was, those sort 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.520 of details. But the interesting thing is people were so 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:14.200 sure about it, like they're like, I was totally wearing 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:16.040 a green shirt and eating fruit loops and that was 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:18.440 that was it. I have this clean memory, and uh, 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:22.560 it's we basically think it is an evolutionary response, Like 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:25.080 it's not just like some sort of flaw. It's because 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.400 if you're in a situation where it maybe life or death, 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:29.839 you may need to run for your life, you may 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:31.880 need to make some very quick decisions in order to 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.080 survive or do the right thing, your brain basically doesn't 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:38.720 want you to care about the details. So because it's 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.679 in the fear response, right right, it's it's more reacted 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:43.640 like you got to do something, dude, don't worry what 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:46.280 your fruit loops are doing or what your shirt you 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:49.280 were wearing, and and so you're sure about it because 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:52.000 it's because it's the sort of the trick of the memory, 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:54.080 so that you're not concerned with it. Yeah, okay, that 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:56.200 makes sense. And it also makes sense that people have 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:59.520 are so sure about it because it was a very 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:04.120 prominent at emotional experience, right, so it meant so much 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:06.400 to them that they felt like, well, of course I 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:08.120 was wearing this short and of course I remember every 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.439 detail because that's how it felt to me rather than 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.000 what it actually was. But why would we need to 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.640 to erase the memory? Right? Yeah, I mean, we actually 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.559 have some very good reasons why someone would want to 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:23.280 undergo this process, and we'll get to that right at 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:28.080 its quick break. This podcast is brought to you by Intel, 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:32.240 the sponsors of Tomorrow and the Discovery Channel. At Intel, 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:36.520 we believe curiosity is the spark which drives innovation. Join 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.720 us at curiosity dot com and explore the answers to 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:44.800 life's questions and we're back. Yeah. It's kind of a 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.959 trickier question than than it may seem on the surface, 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:52.480 because even when bad things happen to us, um, they 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:54.640 become traumatic memories a lot of the times because we 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.440 need to be able to avoid those situations in the future. 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.640 We need to or just embarrassing memory. You know, it's 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.120 like it was really embarrassing the time, uh you know, 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:05.880 you got up and uh you know, it made some 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.079 faux pad a meeting or something, and so you are 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.520 remembering that it stings in your memory, but you're not 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:13.760 making that same faux pas every time you go into 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.440 the sub meeting, you know. So, yeah, it plays an 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.800 important role. It does. You're right, and even something is something. 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:21.440 I was just thinking about a friend of mine who 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.120 went to a wedding and she decided not to wear 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.119 any undy's but she had on a little other contraption 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.280 and which I won't get too specific, because you know, 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.240 we're a clean podcast here, But she was dancing in 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.280 her dress, got caught up, and she moved the world, 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:38.840 and you know, for the rest of her life she's thinking, 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.560 always were underwear with this contraption always where, you know. 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:45.480 I mean, it's important, right, And that's kind of a 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:49.680 low brow example, but still, yeah. I mean the movie 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.000 that I'm sure everyone instantly thought of when they saw 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:55.360 this podcast, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mine. I mean, 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:57.240 the whole message of that is this is where the 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.800 end of they go to erase this painful breakup so 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:01.440 they and move on with their lives. But in erasing 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:03.520 the painful breakup, they end up falling in love with 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:05.840 each other. In the real world, you'd end up not 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.920 learning from their mistakes, right, right, she would underwear less 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:10.960 mooning people for first of her life. And she didn't 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.440 feel ashamefaced about it. Um. Still, if it starts interfering 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:16.960 with your life, that's where it becomes an issue. Okay, 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.600 So if it became an anxiety disorder, she decided not 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.080 to leave her house or to ever, you know, she 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:26.080 can even look at a pair of underwear or anything else. Um, 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.520 that would be really traumatic. Right. And and of course 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.400 on a more serious note, you see this a lot 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:35.760 with people coming back from more with PTSD, and it's 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:39.360 it's a it's a horrible disorder. And the reason is 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:42.520 because you are re experiencing the event again and again 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.520 over and over. So you might want to you know, 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:49.840 undergo some sort of uh process to alleviate that if 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:53.000 you could. Yeah, especially when the response that it and 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:54.960 that it that it brings up is not going to 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:59.240 be a helpful one. Like if you're just totally freezing, uh, 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.000 you know, every time a milk carton drops in the 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:04.600 in the grocery store, or if you're you're becoming super 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:06.920 defensive and ready to you know, karate drop something every 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:09.320 time there's a loud noise, that's not helpful, right, Same 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:11.680 thing with phobias in the in the same sense where 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.680 if you have an extreme irrational fear and you know 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.800 it's it's shuddering you in your house then and in 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:21.280 every time that you think of a memory and you 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.240 then augment it with this phobia, and then you predict 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.160 the future thinking, oh, if I leave my house, this 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:29.280 is going to happen. UM, then you would probably want 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.920 to try to remediate that if it would be good 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.800 to be able to do zap or up that memory 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:37.840 as well, discussed here in just about Yeah we will 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:41.120 um nice pun by the way. Uh. But then there's 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:45.040 also something called residual neuropathic pain, which is a complex 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:48.560 chronic pain state that's usually accompanied by tissue injury. And 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.000 you can see this sometimes in spinal cord injuries or 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:55.800 patients undergoing chemotherapy or people with diabetes UM. And that's 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.800 when the damage nerve fibers sent incorrect signals to other 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:00.920 pain centers. And you actually at me a really cool 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.399 article about UM. Actually I think it was a blog 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:08.800 post from the World Science Festival on pain and memory 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:12.040 in the spinal cord and how your spinal cord is 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:16.720 actually tagging that pain UM with the memory and calling 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.280 it up. And they used an example of saying, hey, 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.200 you can't you slam your your hand on the door, 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.280 and then for days afterwards, the neurons in your spine 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:27.040 carry the pain signals more easily from your hand to 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.600 your brain, and as a result, your hand feels more 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.920 sensitive and even the lightest touch will trigger an unpleasant reaction. 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.400 Two groups of scientists have found that one special molecule 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:40.240 p mk zeta, which we'll talk about, underlies both processes, 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:42.840 and it helps to store memories in our brains and 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.800 it sensitizes neurons in our spines after a painful experience. 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:49.879 So much of this is related to pain, memory and 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:52.000 so on and so forth. Yeah, and it's going about 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.840 in these cases, it's going above and beyond the simple 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:59.440 of you know, importance of pain, which is, hey, don't 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.200 do that because it's damaging your tissue, don't or be careful, 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:04.840 there's something wrong with your leg. It's it's it's it's 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.760 beyond that and it needs to be addressed. Right yeah. 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:09.760 So okay, let's say you have a memory you want 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:11.879 to race. You're going to go to a pro. What 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.320 are your options here? Well, one option, of course, would 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:18.760 be cortisol curving drugs, right, yes, yes, which this was 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:21.200 some really interesting to me. There are thirty three university 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:26.040 students who watched a film to picking a granddaughter helping 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.000 her grandfather make a birdhouse. This is all related to 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.960 the cortisol, which is a stress hormone, by the way, 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:34.840 and in the film she accidentally gets her hand caught 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:38.359 in the saw and yeah, and so of course these 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:42.520 thirty three university students are sitting there in an emotional distress. 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:45.240 And even though the film had a nice happy ending 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:48.720 and her her hand was back on um, you know, 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.200 people were a little bit flamm x by it. So 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:54.240 what researchers did after putting them through all this this 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:58.000 dress is they collected saliva to measure cortisol again, that 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.439 stress hormone. And then three days later, this is the 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:05.040 really trippy thing about this, the volunteers were brought back 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.800 to the lab and some were given a placebo, while 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.040 the rest were given one of two doses of a 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.160 drug that knocks back the amount of cortisol that courses 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:16.560 through your body. And then they were asked to recall 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:20.000 the video presentations and lo and behold the people who 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:23.000 were on the higher dose of the inhibitor for the cortisol. 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.640 The harder it was for them to remember anything at all. 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:30.159 And they found this even four days later, Uh, the 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:33.320 same thing when they administered the cortisol, This memory just 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.080 kept fading and fading as opposed to the control group 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:40.440 who had no cortisol, Which is really I think it's 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.280 cool because you know, I have learned that cortisol, if 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:46.400 you if you're if you have a lot of anxiety 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:50.080 or if um, you know you're real stressed throughout the 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:53.080 day in your cortisol levels peak can really mess with 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.840 your body. In fact, is it's a big cause for 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:59.280 people um not able to sleep or having bouts of 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.960 insomnia to because it really throws your body off. Um. 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:05.240 And if anybody's interested in reading more about that. The 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.639 study was published in the August issue of Journal of 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:11.120 Clinical end of Chronology and met about metabolism cool. Well, 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.880 the other really fascinating option and this is the one 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:16.960 that really they spent a lot of time within this 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:19.680 uh the World Science Festival and uh and it was 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:21.280 really like the reason I was like, oh, we gotta 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:24.439 do a podcast about this is this substance called ZIP 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.359 that they've developed. And one of the key guys involved 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:29.480 in this is Todd Sacktor, who was at the World 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:32.639 Science Festival to talk about this really amusic We like 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:36.399 do we I don't know. We should never do that, 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:40.840 um because he will come at us with the ZIP stuff. 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:46.000 That's right, Mr Sector never mind. Yeah, ZIP is basically 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.120