1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. All Right, 4 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: we were just talking about this. Everyone has this memory 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: or generally more than one, mary that like some sort 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: of embarrassment from the past and enters your mind. And 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: what happens. You just curl up in a fetal position 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: because it's such an awful memory and you just think, 9 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: why why I was just sitting here, I was just 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: doing the laundry, and then you just struck out of 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: nowhere and this memory. And I won't describe it because 12 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's awful and embarrassing. Yeah, it haunts 13 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: me year after year. Yeah, I don't happen to me. 14 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: I'll think of like something that I said it was 15 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: just really stupid once. Um. Generally not on on this podcast, 16 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: you know, but but something to see. I think of 17 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: the things I say on this podcast and not crimming time, 18 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: but you know it, Okay, It'll enter my mind and 19 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: I'll find myself having to um kind of like do 20 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: a la la la la la, I can't hear you 21 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: kind of a thing. We're all we're all combat it 22 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: with just like a really nonsense phrase like and then 23 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: he turned into a goat. Like that used to be 24 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: a staple where I would think of something something embarrassing 25 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: in the past, and it would be like, and then 26 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: he turned into a goat, and then he turned into 27 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: a goat, and that would like the image of something 28 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: turning into a goat would help rid myself of of 29 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: self stabbing with that memory. Well, not only is that 30 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: a tip, but a little insight into the mind of 31 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb. Goat turn absolutely good. I'm richly amused by them. 32 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: I see that. But yeah, this this is the problem, 33 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: and I think that some people would willingly undergo their 34 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: memories or specific memories being erased if they could. Yeah, yeah, 35 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: what if you could go in and say, all right, 36 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: instead of just having to go through this moment where 37 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: I drop into a fetal position or have to think 38 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: something stupid to combat something stupid, or then, how what 39 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: if I could just go in and have it removed, 40 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: Go into the doc and say, hey, I've got this 41 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: memory I want removed, and they're like, all right, well 42 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: think about it for a second. All right, I'm thinking 43 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: about it. Now and then whap is that it's very possible. Yeah, 44 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: it's very possible. And there this is something that came 45 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: up when when we were attending the World Science Festival 46 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: in New York, I attended a panel of about the 47 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: Unbearable Lightness of memory. And there it was just like 48 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: one of these sessions where they had had a number 49 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: of these guys, um and and women that were just 50 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: experts in the field of memory and are just on 51 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: the cutting edge of of seeing you know, of of 52 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,399 Speaker 1: our understanding of memory and our exploitation of that understanding. 53 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: And so it was a very mind blowing a couple 54 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: of hours. And this is a topic that came up 55 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: and that these guys were saying, Yeah, within our lifetime. 56 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: Some were saying, within the next ten years, we will 57 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: have the technology to go in and selectively erase memories, 58 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: because we are doing it on rats currently, um, you know, 59 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: in some cases. So obviously that technology is going to 60 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: find its way into the mainstream. It is just a 61 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: matter of how and when and um, will we be 62 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: willing to undergo and why would we which we're going 63 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: to talk about today, but we're going to talk a 64 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: little bit more specifically about memories before we go into that, 65 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: and we are going to talk about technology that exists 66 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: now to wipe the memory in a clean fashion, not 67 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: in a brain damage way, but in a rat because 68 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: we all know that you can erase memories by damaging 69 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: the brain. But that's that's kind of dumb. That's like 70 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: saying you can erase an ink by burning the paper. 71 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: That's not really erasing the baby out with the bath water, 72 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: right right, So we'll get into some of that as well. 73 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: But yeah, first we need to talk about exactly what 74 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: memory is, um, which is one of the big questions 75 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: that's again it's when we're continuing to answer and one 76 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: that we've been asking as long as we've had memory, 77 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: as long as we've had had intelligence among the species. Well, well, 78 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: let's lay down some nuts and bolts because this is 79 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: going to be important in some of the discussions that 80 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: we UM have later on about actually how we how 81 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: we would erase a specific memory. UM. So, what is 82 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: happening when you're making a memory? Basically, you have nerve 83 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: cells that are communicating by sending electrical signals which trigger 84 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: the release of chemicals across tying gaps called synapses. When 85 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: these are the neural junctions, and then as one cell 86 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: speaks to another, chemical changes at the synapse make it 87 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: easier for the signal to pass. Okay, so this is important. 88 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: If only a few signals are sent, this transforment transformation 89 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: among a network of cells is temporary, resulting in short 90 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: term memory. But if the signals keep coming through changes 91 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 1: that the most active snaps has become permanent and they 92 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: create long term memories. It is literally an anatomical change 93 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: to your brain. So it's I mean, it was just 94 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: if you look at it this way, different day, different brain. Yeah, 95 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: I was. I was really fascinated by that viewpoint, the 96 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: idea that that at the addition of a permanent memory 97 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: is the an anatomical difference in the brain. Because we 98 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: you know, we've talked about before this whole question of 99 00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: like trying to figure out who and what we are 100 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: and the brains and ability to perceive itself, even if 101 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: we are completely atheistic in our in our viewpoints, even 102 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: if we're just the most scientific, hard boiled I don't 103 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: believe in ghosts kind of guy, you or goal I'm 104 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: I'm using guy in the non gender specific I know 105 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: you are, but but yeah, even if you just you know, 106 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: you don't believe in any of this nonsense, you still 107 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: can fall into this trap of of sort of thinking 108 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: of yourself is this non corporeal thing that just happens 109 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: during the bodies and we end up we end up 110 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: not thinking about ourselves our memory as a physical manifestation. Yeah, 111 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: And it is interesting to you to think of how 112 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: we regard ourselves mainly by what memories are are we 113 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: what shapes us? Our idea of ourselves is composed of memories, 114 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: right right? Um, So knowing that memory making is really 115 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: very a fragile process and um, and not as straight 116 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: forward as straightforward as we thought, really sort of is 117 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: a game changer and how we perceive ourselves and and 118 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: just it's amazing to think that we are constructing this 119 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:15,239 Speaker 1: reality out of a really flawed process, right, because flawed 120 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: in a sense. But but basically it comes down to 121 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: the way we used to think about let's let's talk 122 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: about that because because ultimately the way it works is 123 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: the way it works, and it works that way due 124 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: to um, you know, rigorous evolution, uh, and it and 125 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: it is important that it works the way it works. 126 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: But the way you're not not going to evolution. I'm 127 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: just saying that it's not as ironclad as and we thought. 128 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: Our memories are ephemeral little things. Yes, and so just 129 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: as an example, the old way of looking at how 130 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: how memories worked, want a little something like this, you 131 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: would learn something, UM, let's say you would learn that. UM. 132 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: Let's let's think about what's the what's the most recent 133 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: thing you learned about cicada's and their lifespan? Okay, well 134 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: let's say you, um, you learned that cicadas um, some 135 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: species of cicadas uh will are a thirteen year lifecycle 136 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: where they go to ground for thirteen years. All right, 137 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: So you learn that, all right, and then you store 138 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: it and then when you go to retrieve it, you 139 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: retrieve it. So it's like I take the fact, I 140 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: put it in the storage drawer the brain, and then 141 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: I retrieve it. And there's there's no update process going 142 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: on here. This is the old model. And then if 143 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: you were to say then you were suddenly to learn, oh, 144 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: well there's thirteen and seventeen here. That's an addition, that's 145 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: an update, but there's not really an update process going on. 146 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: It's just like, oh, I'll store that memory too, well, 147 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: the the current view is the reconsolidation view, and this 148 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: is this is a little more complicated, and this is 149 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: this is how it would go. You'll learn the fact, right, okay, 150 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: cicadas years, you store the fact, all right, and then 151 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: you retrieve the fact. But when you retrieve the fact, uh, 152 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: it goes through up date, reconsolidation, and then it's stored again. 153 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: So the idea is that every time we reach into 154 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: the storage center of our brain and retrieve something, be 155 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: it a little fact about Cicada's or our family history 156 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: or something about ourselves, we retrieve it and we update 157 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: it and then we put it back. So it's it's 158 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: ever changing. There's no such thing as this memory. Like 159 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: the memories are not set in stone. They are um there. 160 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: They are these continued things that alter every time we 161 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: touch it. It's kind of like if it we're a 162 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: police case. You know, they're always talking about like the 163 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,719 Speaker 1: chain of um, not the chain of command. What is 164 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: it with evidence? Uh, it's like a chain of possession 165 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: or something. I'll give a chain of obsession. Yeah, one 166 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: of our more crime oriented or police work oriented of 167 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: yours will correctus on this, but but yeah, they're very 168 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: concerned with with who has the control of the evidence 169 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: at any given moment, because they could flowt they could 170 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: they could get fingerprints on it or tamper with it 171 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: in some uh some way, shape or form. So if 172 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: you look at memory, like that memory, every time you 173 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: get it out, somebody's getting their paws on it. I 174 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: mean you're getting your paws on it. That you're adding 175 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 1: new information to it, and some of that new information 176 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: and you add may not be good information, well right, right, 177 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: And when you're sharing that information, you're corroborating some of 178 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: your information, right, and you're adding to it, and you 179 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: know you've got the whole human experience sort of coming 180 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: in and coloring that experience that memory, that data. Yeah, 181 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 1: Like here's an example. Let's see you have She's a 182 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: who's a childhood friend of yours, Cheryl. All right, Let's 183 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: say you when you first meet Cheryl and you're your 184 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: friends with Cheryl and uh, and then you you go 185 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: out roller skating and you fall down and then you're 186 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: trying to go backwards again fancy, and then later on, um, 187 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: you have a falling out with Cheryl and you begin 188 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: to see think of Cheryl as um your enemy Okay, Yeah, 189 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: so then you could conceivably retrieve that memory of you 190 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: falling down pushed me exactly. You add in this new 191 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: information where Cheryl is the great adversary, and and now 192 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: the memory is restored in a slightly different form. Now 193 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: this isn't necessarily a false memory then, has it or 194 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: a cover memory? No? No, but it's potentially flawed. It's 195 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: also potentially more accurate. Who knows, maybe Cheryl did push you, 196 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: but it's but it's changing. What I thought was really 197 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: interesting is how much emotion can really determine what sort 198 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: of memory you get out of an experience. And you 199 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: had a really interesting um example from the panel that 200 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,839 Speaker 1: had to do with nine eleven. Right, Yeah, these uh, 201 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: you know, neuroscientists are are kind of awesome, and they're 202 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: always I mean, you can you can say that they're 203 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: a little too focused on their work in this particular example, 204 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: but but I think it's it's very telling. Nine eleven occurs, 205 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: you know, tragic, horrible day for anyone involved. But these 206 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: guys were instantly thinking, all right, this is a great example. 207 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: This is a great opportunity for us to test how 208 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: our memory reacts with traumatic situations. Because every because anybody 209 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: you can ask that question, you know, it's like what 210 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: were you doing on nine eleven? Or where were you 211 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: when Kennedy was shot? For older members of the audience, 212 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, there would be some sort of people always 213 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: have really specific answers. I was in my living room, 214 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: and uh, it's not necessarily accurate, right, Yeah, they did 215 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: this study where they were they were act They were 216 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: checking everybody's memory, doing test on it to see how 217 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: accurate their memory was of their of their like what 218 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 1: they were wearing, what they were eating for breakfast on 219 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: nine eleven versus other times, and uh, and there was 220 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: there was actually less accuracy for nine eleven. And it's 221 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: because there's less less activity uh in the in the 222 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: pair of hippocampus, which is involved in the details, and 223 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: it's um and it ends up being more of an 224 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: emotional response. Amygdala is really active in this case, right, 225 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: The amigdeala is the emotional seat, and that's where all 226 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: the activity is of when forming these these traumatic memories, 227 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: right where it's the the detail or did uh hi. 228 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: Hippocampus is taking a back seat to that, and so 229 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: the pair of hippocampus is noting would normally note like 230 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,719 Speaker 1: what you were wearing, what time it was, those sort 231 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: of details. But the interesting thing is people were so 232 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: sure about it, like they're like, I was totally wearing 233 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: a green shirt and eating fruit loops and that was 234 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: that was it. I have this clean memory, and uh, 235 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: it's we basically think it is an evolutionary response, Like 236 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: it's not just like some sort of flaw. It's because 237 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: if you're in a situation where it maybe life or death, 238 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: you may need to run for your life, you may 239 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: need to make some very quick decisions in order to 240 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: survive or do the right thing, your brain basically doesn't 241 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: want you to care about the details. So because it's 242 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: in the fear response, right right, it's it's more reacted 243 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: like you got to do something, dude, don't worry what 244 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: your fruit loops are doing or what your shirt you 245 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: were wearing, and and so you're sure about it because 246 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: it's because it's the sort of the trick of the memory, 247 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: so that you're not concerned with it. Yeah, okay, that 248 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: makes sense. And it also makes sense that people have 249 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: are so sure about it because it was a very 250 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: prominent at emotional experience, right, so it meant so much 251 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: to them that they felt like, well, of course I 252 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: was wearing this short and of course I remember every 253 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: detail because that's how it felt to me rather than 254 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: what it actually was. But why would we need to 255 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: to erase the memory? Right? Yeah, I mean, we actually 256 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: have some very good reasons why someone would want to 257 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: undergo this process, and we'll get to that right at 258 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: its quick break. This podcast is brought to you by Intel, 259 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: the sponsors of Tomorrow and the Discovery Channel. At Intel, 260 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: we believe curiosity is the spark which drives innovation. Join 261 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: us at curiosity dot com and explore the answers to 262 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: life's questions and we're back. Yeah. It's kind of a 263 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 1: trickier question than than it may seem on the surface, 264 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: because even when bad things happen to us, um, they 265 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: become traumatic memories a lot of the times because we 266 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 1: need to be able to avoid those situations in the future. 267 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: We need to or just embarrassing memory. You know, it's 268 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: like it was really embarrassing the time, uh you know, 269 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: you got up and uh you know, it made some 270 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: faux pad a meeting or something, and so you are 271 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: remembering that it stings in your memory, but you're not 272 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: making that same faux pas every time you go into 273 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: the sub meeting, you know. So, yeah, it plays an 274 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: important role. It does. You're right, and even something is something. 275 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: I was just thinking about a friend of mine who 276 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: went to a wedding and she decided not to wear 277 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,119 Speaker 1: any undy's but she had on a little other contraption 278 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: and which I won't get too specific, because you know, 279 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: we're a clean podcast here, But she was dancing in 280 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: her dress, got caught up, and she moved the world, 281 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: and you know, for the rest of her life she's thinking, 282 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: always were underwear with this contraption always where, you know. 283 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it's important, right, And that's kind of a 284 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: low brow example, but still, yeah. I mean the movie 285 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: that I'm sure everyone instantly thought of when they saw 286 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: this podcast, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mine. I mean, 287 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: the whole message of that is this is where the 288 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: end of they go to erase this painful breakup so 289 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: they and move on with their lives. But in erasing 290 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: the painful breakup, they end up falling in love with 291 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: each other. In the real world, you'd end up not 292 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: learning from their mistakes, right, right, she would underwear less 293 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: mooning people for first of her life. And she didn't 294 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: feel ashamefaced about it. Um. Still, if it starts interfering 295 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: with your life, that's where it becomes an issue. Okay, 296 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: So if it became an anxiety disorder, she decided not 297 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: to leave her house or to ever, you know, she 298 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: can even look at a pair of underwear or anything else. Um, 299 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: that would be really traumatic. Right. And and of course 300 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: on a more serious note, you see this a lot 301 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: with people coming back from more with PTSD, and it's 302 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: it's a it's a horrible disorder. And the reason is 303 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: because you are re experiencing the event again and again 304 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: over and over. So you might want to you know, 305 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: undergo some sort of uh process to alleviate that if 306 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: you could. Yeah, especially when the response that it and 307 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: that it that it brings up is not going to 308 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: be a helpful one. Like if you're just totally freezing, uh, 309 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: you know, every time a milk carton drops in the 310 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: in the grocery store, or if you're you're becoming super 311 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: defensive and ready to you know, karate drop something every 312 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: time there's a loud noise, that's not helpful, right, Same 313 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: thing with phobias in the in the same sense where 314 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: if you have an extreme irrational fear and you know 315 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: it's it's shuddering you in your house then and in 316 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: every time that you think of a memory and you 317 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: then augment it with this phobia, and then you predict 318 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: the future thinking, oh, if I leave my house, this 319 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: is going to happen. UM, then you would probably want 320 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: to try to remediate that if it would be good 321 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: to be able to do zap or up that memory 322 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: as well, discussed here in just about Yeah we will 323 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: um nice pun by the way. Uh. But then there's 324 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: also something called residual neuropathic pain, which is a complex 325 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: chronic pain state that's usually accompanied by tissue injury. And 326 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: you can see this sometimes in spinal cord injuries or 327 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: patients undergoing chemotherapy or people with diabetes UM. And that's 328 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: when the damage nerve fibers sent incorrect signals to other 329 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: pain centers. And you actually at me a really cool 330 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 1: article about UM. Actually I think it was a blog 331 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: post from the World Science Festival on pain and memory 332 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: in the spinal cord and how your spinal cord is 333 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: actually tagging that pain UM with the memory and calling 334 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: it up. And they used an example of saying, hey, 335 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: you can't you slam your your hand on the door, 336 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: and then for days afterwards, the neurons in your spine 337 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: carry the pain signals more easily from your hand to 338 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: your brain, and as a result, your hand feels more 339 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: sensitive and even the lightest touch will trigger an unpleasant reaction. 340 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: Two groups of scientists have found that one special molecule 341 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: p mk zeta, which we'll talk about, underlies both processes, 342 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: and it helps to store memories in our brains and 343 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: it sensitizes neurons in our spines after a painful experience. 344 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: So much of this is related to pain, memory and 345 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: so on and so forth. Yeah, and it's going about 346 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: in these cases, it's going above and beyond the simple 347 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: of you know, importance of pain, which is, hey, don't 348 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: do that because it's damaging your tissue, don't or be careful, 349 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: there's something wrong with your leg. It's it's it's it's 350 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: beyond that and it needs to be addressed. Right yeah. 351 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: So okay, let's say you have a memory you want 352 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: to race. You're going to go to a pro. What 353 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: are your options here? Well, one option, of course, would 354 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: be cortisol curving drugs, right, yes, yes, which this was 355 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: some really interesting to me. There are thirty three university 356 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: students who watched a film to picking a granddaughter helping 357 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: her grandfather make a birdhouse. This is all related to 358 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: the cortisol, which is a stress hormone, by the way, 359 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: and in the film she accidentally gets her hand caught 360 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: in the saw and yeah, and so of course these 361 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: thirty three university students are sitting there in an emotional distress. 362 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: And even though the film had a nice happy ending 363 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: and her her hand was back on um, you know, 364 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: people were a little bit flamm x by it. So 365 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: what researchers did after putting them through all this this 366 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: dress is they collected saliva to measure cortisol again, that 367 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: stress hormone. And then three days later, this is the 368 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: really trippy thing about this, the volunteers were brought back 369 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: to the lab and some were given a placebo, while 370 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: the rest were given one of two doses of a 371 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: drug that knocks back the amount of cortisol that courses 372 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: through your body. And then they were asked to recall 373 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: the video presentations and lo and behold the people who 374 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: were on the higher dose of the inhibitor for the cortisol. 375 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: The harder it was for them to remember anything at all. 376 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: And they found this even four days later, Uh, the 377 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: same thing when they administered the cortisol, This memory just 378 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: kept fading and fading as opposed to the control group 379 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: who had no cortisol, Which is really I think it's 380 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: cool because you know, I have learned that cortisol, if 381 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: you if you're if you have a lot of anxiety 382 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: or if um, you know you're real stressed throughout the 383 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: day in your cortisol levels peak can really mess with 384 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: your body. In fact, is it's a big cause for 385 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: people um not able to sleep or having bouts of 386 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: insomnia to because it really throws your body off. Um. 387 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: And if anybody's interested in reading more about that. The 388 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: study was published in the August issue of Journal of 389 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 1: Clinical end of Chronology and met about metabolism cool. Well, 390 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 1: the other really fascinating option and this is the one 391 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: that really they spent a lot of time within this 392 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 1: uh the World Science Festival and uh and it was 393 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: really like the reason I was like, oh, we gotta 394 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: do a podcast about this is this substance called ZIP 395 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: that they've developed. And one of the key guys involved 396 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: in this is Todd Sacktor, who was at the World 397 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: Science Festival to talk about this really amusic We like 398 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: do we I don't know. We should never do that, 399 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: um because he will come at us with the ZIP stuff. 400 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: That's right, Mr Sector never mind. Yeah, ZIP is basically 401 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 1: in two thousand six, his team was able to use 402 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: ZIP to erase the memories in the brains of rats 403 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 1: and by neutralizing this p k M zeta that we 404 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 1: were mentioning earlier, which again it's like the glue from him. 405 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: That's right. So when when we were talking about the 406 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,719 Speaker 1: all those uh memories really forming at the most active 407 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: synastic synactic points, it's that p mk data that is 408 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 1: the glue that is helping to solidify that memory. So 409 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: that's important in this ZIP process. Yeah, they injected and 410 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: they were testing it. They had like this carousel with 411 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: like with one area of like this just this round area. 412 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: They called it a carousel, but it's but one section 413 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: of it was electrocuted. So the rat is they put 414 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: it in and the rat eventually learns where not to 415 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: step because we'll get a shock. Then they inject ZIP 416 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: into the hippocampus and it just it cleans out even 417 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: very strong memories uh, you know, ones that have been 418 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: around for quite a while and suddenly the rat doesn't 419 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: know where not to step it. It basically they there 420 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: are different types of memories, and I should have mentioned 421 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: this earlier, I guess, but um, you know, we have 422 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: we have episodic memory for events, we have semantic memory 423 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: for facts. We have conditioning memories, which is like the 424 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: whole Pavlov's dog thing where you know, you hear a 425 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: dent dog, here's a bell and start salvating because they 426 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 1: thinks he's gonna get food. And then you have these 427 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: priming memories, which are which involves the unconscious activation of memory, 428 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 1: um kind of reminders. So ZIP basically will knock out 429 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: everything but priming. And it's pretty impressive. Yeah, I mean 430 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: it's impressive. It's scary. It's also uh it could be 431 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: a huge help to people if used in the right way. Right. Yeah, 432 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,719 Speaker 1: And the really important thing here, like like I mentioned earlier, 433 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: is that this is not brain damage. In in sactor's 434 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: own words, it basically it doesn't hurt the brain. It 435 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: just restores it to factory settings. Yeah. I know, but 436 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 1: that's still kind of creepy. It is, it is creepy. 437 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: I mean, no, no one has used this on a human. Um, 438 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: it's really important to note them that we know of, 439 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: I guess. I mean, who knows what's going on out 440 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: there in the world, But as far as I know, 441 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: it's never been used on humans. Um, if it were 442 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: the like I said that, the priming memories still be there, 443 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: the sort of hind mine stuff would be there, it 444 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: would't mess with any of that. But but yeah, it's 445 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: it's it's it's kind of like the Bourne identity, except 446 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 1: you wouldn't be able to do karate like that would 447 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: be that would be gone. Um, you'd have to relearn karate. Yeah, 448 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: you'd have to relearn karate. Yeah, Okay, I don't know, 449 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about it. It's just crazy to think about, like, 450 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 1: like what would that be like suddenly have that have 451 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,239 Speaker 1: the ZIP put into your brain and then it's just 452 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: it just clears it out. Well. I mean, on the 453 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: one hand, um, and this was posted on Facebook not 454 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: too long ago. Uh, memory is sort of becoming a 455 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: very different thing for us than it used to be 456 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: thanks to the Internet. Right, It's it's not really as important. 457 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: It certainly as important, right, but but for some types 458 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: of things, stuff fac like learning karate. You could probably 459 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: go and watch a video if you need it to, 460 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: you know, I mean the Internet is very much an 461 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: external memory for us um and so rebuilding your your 462 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 1: brain or your memory. I guess on the flip side 463 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: of this, you've got their racing and then you've got 464 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: the Hey, how could I make it stronger? How could 465 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: I access memories? You could certainly even do that through 466 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: the breadcrumb trail of your social life on the Internet. Right, 467 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: That would be interested, That would make for an I 468 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: don't know if it would make for an interesting movie, 469 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: but I can just imagine somebody like having to rediscover 470 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: what their life was by going going into into their 471 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: Internet accounts and yeah, what if you were horrified, which 472 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: I can I cannot believe I wrote that, or you 473 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: know who, who are these people? Or wow, that person 474 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: is awesome. Well, there's a there's a number of eco 475 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: novel um and I forget the name of it off hand. 476 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: It's the it's uh, not his most recent one that 477 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: deals with like the Bridges of Prague or something, which 478 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: I don't think is out in English yet, but the 479 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: one proceeding that has to do with someone who loses 480 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: their memory and I think they reclaim it by looking 481 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: at like going and looking at the things they read 482 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: in comic books and whatnot. But but again I haven't 483 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: read that one yet. Yeah. Well, and then again on 484 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: the flip side that p mks data can actually be 485 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: used to strengthen memories too. That's another thing that they discovered. 486 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: They were able to put the more pkm zeta into 487 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: a Rats brain and its memory would improve. And also 488 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: it means ZIP is one of these things where no 489 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: one is saying, like, we got this thing called ZIP, 490 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: let's figure out things to use it for, and let's 491 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: star using it on people and more rats. Uh No. 492 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: But but the process going on there tells us a 493 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: lot about what's going on with memory. And we can 494 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: learn a lot from the from these experiments involving ZIP 495 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: and Rats. Well, and I always I'm interested in an 496 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: experiment when when something unintentional and unintentional happens and it's 497 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: a big breakthrough, like Okay, here's p mk zeta, let's 498 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: let's try to zap it. Oh, by the way, we 499 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: could also um instead of trying to lessen the amount 500 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: of pichemist zeta, we could also bolster the memory and 501 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 1: make it even better by injecting much more of this. Yeah. Now, 502 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier the the the whole retrieval and reconsolidation process, 503 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: and there there's a line of thinking that this may 504 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: be the key to erasing a memory, in that we 505 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: recall the memory, we we take it out of the 506 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: storage area, and we have it, and then we change 507 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: it and we put it back. It's and it's reconsolidated. 508 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: The new information is reconsolidated into it. And this again, 509 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: this is not this is not a cheapening of anything. 510 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,959 Speaker 1: This is not a this is not a flaw in 511 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: the grand design. It's like, by necessity, we live in 512 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: a world, as we said before, of multiple changing objects 513 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: and symbols. You need to be able to navigate this world, 514 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: so you need a brain that can update, you know. 515 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: It's like it's like if you if you're like me 516 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: and you haven't bothered to plug your GPS system for 517 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: your car into a computer since you bought it, Like 518 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,959 Speaker 1: roads are changing and and you occasionally encounter a new 519 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: road and uh, and the device is like, I don't 520 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: know where you are. You're in the middle of a field. 521 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: I guess our brains don't need to work like that 522 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: we need to be able to update with new information 523 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: from the office. When yeah, it's like that. So but 524 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: they think that when we when are when during this 525 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: retrieval phase, the memory may be vulnerable to so elective deletion. 526 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: The idea of being it's kind of like like, all right, 527 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: let's wait, let's watch what the brain's doing. All right, 528 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: he's getting the memory out of the drawer. He hasn't 529 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: in his hands, and then bam, shatter it and then 530 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: it's gone. Okay. So every time you take the memory 531 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: out and you take it for a walk, so to speak, 532 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: you're adding to it, but you're also taking away, right 533 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: and and in that moment, they think, during that reconsolidation process, 534 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: if we can develop a way to to to target specifically, 535 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: that would be that this would be how you would 536 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: do it, like and it would probably be a situation 537 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: where you would have to think about the memory where 538 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 1: they would be like, all right, start thinking about that 539 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: memory of such and such and and only think about it. 540 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: But even that is fraught with peril because how do 541 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: you know that that's the version of the of the 542 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: memory that you're trying to You know what I'm saying. 543 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: If each time you take it out, and the reality 544 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 1: of that memory becomes even more distorted. How do you 545 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: know if that's the point at which you want to 546 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: delete that memory, or at least that portion of it. Well, 547 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: because you don't really have any control about what you're 548 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: determining the memory to be. Come, I don't know, a 549 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: little more hot water because the baths too cold, a 550 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: little more cold, a lot of because the baths too hot. 551 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: But yeah, and then eventually the bath is overflowing. But 552 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: and this is probably why this is not going to 553 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: come online anytime soon for humans, right or The other 554 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: thing that I think about two is kind of like 555 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: a Ghostbuster situation. Do you remember the end of Ghostbusters? 556 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: But the second one? Not the second one goes my favorite, 557 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: and don't don't judge, I actually like the second one 558 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: as well. I'm not one of those Ghostbusters two haters. 559 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: But but Ghostbusters one at the end of it party 560 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 1: in the street, well no, no, before that, when Gooser 561 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: appears as the supermodel, the pink supermodel on the top 562 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: of the building, all right, and they blast Goeser, but 563 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: Ghoes is not dead, and Ghoser says, all right, I'm 564 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: going to destroy the world. But the next thing you 565 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: think about is the form I'm going to take. That's 566 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: going to be the form of the destructor. So everyone's like, 567 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: don't think of anything, don't think of the thing, don't 568 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: give this monster anything to me. And then dan Ackroyd's 569 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: character thinks of the step of marshmallow Man like ends 570 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: up trying to think of something in scent, and that 571 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: becomes the form of the destructor. So in this situation, 572 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: this hypothetical but probable future situation where someone is brought 573 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: into and they have to think of the their traumatic memory, 574 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: the memory they want to race, like, think of that breakup, 575 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: think of that time that um that you were covered 576 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: in chocolate as a child and a goat lift you like, 577 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: think of that and goat again. Think of that memory 578 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: and we'll erase it. And then you're like thinking over 579 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: like goat looking at me, goat looking at me. And 580 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: then you're like, did a goat really? You know? But 581 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: I saw a terrified child at a petting zoo once 582 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: that had covered like one of these awful kids that 583 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: had like had cut chocolate all over, hitting him or 584 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: herself and was just acting out and then walked into 585 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: the petting zoo where the goats were, and this like 586 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: enormously pregnant goat was like, oh man, that's what I 587 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: wanted exactly, And so the kids just freaking out, like 588 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: the goat is scaring to give me, and I was, 589 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: I was ritually amused. But that was probably traumatic with 590 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: the kid. But I just want to make that distinction 591 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: that you were not a chocolate covered child. No, no, no, 592 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: And I was just I was just witnessing it. But anyway, 593 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: I can imagine somebody, you know, having to think of this, 594 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: this traumatic memory, and then for a second they screw 595 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: up and they think of something favorable from their past. 596 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: They think of like their mom's uh, you know, apple pie, 597 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: or they think of you know, fishing with dad or something, 598 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: or or they they or something like their own phone 599 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: number or something important, and then zip, that one gets 600 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,479 Speaker 1: destroyed by accident, and you're still stuck with the one 601 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: you wanted to get rid of, right, and you're like, great, thanks, 602 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: that was a great valuable memory. And now my friend 603 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: is still sick with the memory of dance around moon 604 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: and everybody. Yeah, and she no longer remembers her mom's name. Yeah, yeah, bum, Well, 605 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: I want to leave you with this quote, Um, that 606 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: I thought was really interesting. And uh, this is from 607 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: Douglas Fields, who's a neuroscientist, and he talks about how 608 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: important it is that we do forget things. Um, so 609 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: I know we've talked about memory retrieval, strengthening memories, forgetting them. 610 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: He says, like a midas cursed by how think his 611 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: wish granted that everything he touched would turn to gold. 612 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: Permanent retention of memories could be debilitating. This is because 613 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: forgetting it's just as important for learning as memory. Just 614 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: as you have talked about, bad habits could not be overcome, 615 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: skills would not be improved, Information such as as an 616 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: old address or phone number could not be updated, and 617 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: traumatic events would never fade from the horror that overwhelms 618 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: a person immediately after the trauma exactly. So it is 619 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: it is important to scrub the mind. Yeah, and I 620 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: will leave everyone with this quote because, Um, you can't 621 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: help but think of all the ways that something like 622 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: ZIP could be misused, just even today. Someone could use 623 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: ZIP on somebody after like robbing a bank, so they 624 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: wouldn't remember the details, or it could be used in 625 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: various espenage situations at the corporate as well. At the 626 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: World Science Festival. They asked Taught Sactride has has the 627 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: as they said, has the Pentagon contacted you? And he 628 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: todd Sacktric thinks for a second. He says, not that 629 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: I recall. Oh, I like it up. Yeah, because that 630 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: really leaves you hang in Yeah yeah, oh boys, t Sack, 631 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: he's wildy. Yeah. Of course if he'd really they'd really 632 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: use zip on in his response would have been something like, 633 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: who are all you people? What am I doing? Yeah? So, hey, 634 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: if you have any cool thoughts on this particular topic 635 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: and have or have questions about memory, because I'm hoping 636 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: to do at least one more stemming from this, uh, 637 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: this particular World Science Festival lecture, let us know. You 638 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: can find us on Facebook and Twitter. We are Blow 639 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,719 Speaker 1: the Mind on both of those and we're always updating 640 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: those seeds with different stuff on each feed. Um. You know, 641 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: links to lots of cool articles, lots of interesting videos, 642 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: and of course in our own blog posts and podcast topics. Yeah, 643 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: and if you have ever successfully, like d I wide 644 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,719 Speaker 1: your own memory eraser, please let us know about it, 645 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: um or if you have any other thoughts to share 646 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: with us, You can find us blew the Mind at 647 00:32:54,440 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. Be sure to check out 648 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: our new video podcast, Stuff from the Future. Join how 649 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: staf Work staff as we explore the most promising and 650 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: perplexing possibilities of tomorrow.