1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This is 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: Robert Land and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: to go into the vault for an older episode of 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: the show. This one originally aired September and was called 5 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: the Atomic scar This one was about some of the 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: after effects of nuclear testing. All right, let's dig right in. 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 9 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Land and I'm Joe McCormick, and 10 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: today we're going to be talking about nuclear weapons testing. Now, 11 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: this is something that has come up on the show 12 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 1: a good bit before. Obviously, we've had to talk many 13 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: times about the very real, uh you know, danger potential 14 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: civilization level threat and and the real human costs of 15 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons and nuclear weapons testing. But today I wanted 16 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: to focus on a couple of interesting and lesser known 17 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: environmental effects of nuclear weapons testing. Specifically something that I 18 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: came across as it pertains to industrial metals, and then 19 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: we're going to get into some other scientific territory as 20 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: we go on. But quite apart from any straightforward chemical 21 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: effects on the atmosphere, I think it is pretty fair 22 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: to say that the the the human departure into the 23 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons testing era in nineteen forty five was really 24 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: sort of a shift moment for for humankind as a species. Yeah, 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: and I feel like there there are very few things 26 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: that have been said there are There are very few 27 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: audio samples certainly that sum it up quite as well 28 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: or or or are as haunting as those given by J. 29 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: Robert Oppenheimer in nineteen sixty five on the television documentary 30 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: The Decision to Drop the Bomb, broadcast as an in 31 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: DC White Pay for I imagine most of you have 32 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: heard this before. I've heard it's a sampled and used 33 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: in music. It uh, it shows up in comic books, literature, 34 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: um in it. The American theoretical physicist and father of 35 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: the atomic bombs he's sometimes referred, shares the following regarding 36 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: the first successful detonation of an atomic bomb at the 37 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: Trinity Test in New Mexico on July six. He said, quote, 38 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: we knew the world would not be the same. A 39 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. 40 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture the Bagavad Gita. 41 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: Fish Nu is trying to persuade the prince that he 42 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: should do his duty, and to impress him, takes on 43 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: his multi armed form and says, now I am become Death, 44 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: the destroyer of worlds. I suppose we all thought that 45 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: one way or another. It's a difficult thing to imagine 46 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: working on that kind of research in a way, feeling 47 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: that it is your duty or your necessity to aid 48 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: the light cause in World War Two, but at the 49 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 1: same time knowing that you were working on something that 50 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: that would unleash an age of terror in human history. Yeah, 51 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: I mean absolutely, a weapon that would as of this recording, uh, 52 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: has only been used twice in war, which on one 53 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: hand you can you can say, thankfully has only been 54 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: used twice in war, but on the the same hand 55 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: you can say, tragically has been used twice in war. Um. Yeah, Well, 56 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: we'll get into the just the destructive capabilities a bit 57 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: of of the bomb as we proceed here, And of 58 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: course we've covered it on the show before to varying degrees. 59 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: But I want to come back to the quote that 60 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: that Oppenheimer is um is deploying here. So if if 61 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: you're not familiar with it, basically, these are these are 62 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: who the figures are in this You've got Vishnu, one 63 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: of the principal deities of Hinduism. Uh. The Bugabod Guetta 64 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: or the gutas it's sometimes just short too, is part 65 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: of the Hindu epic, the Mahabarata. Technically it's book six 66 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: in that. And the prince in question is the hero Argina, 67 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: part of the Pandava family that wages war against the Caravas. Uh. 68 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: That that's the big struggle. That's uh, that's key to 69 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: the Mahabarata. Anyway, at the beginning of the Gita, which 70 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: Appenheimer is um is quoting here, Argena rides his chariot 71 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: onto the field of forthcoming battle between these two families. 72 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: But he suddenly overcome by doubt and depression as he notes, 73 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: they're there on the other side, within the ranks of 74 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: the enemy's he recognizes friends, relatives, teachers, and Uh. And 75 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: therefore has this this just immense so weight descend upon him. Um. 76 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: This is a quote from it. This is as translated 77 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: by Edwin Arnold in five and as as is always 78 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: the case with translated works of literature and poetry, Uh, 79 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: you know, the English is going to be approximate, and 80 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: certainly with Hinduism, they're many cases where particular ideas and 81 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: phrases don't really have a parallel word in English. Um. Anyway, 82 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: it goes as follows quote. Thus, if we slay kinsfolk 83 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: and friends for love of earthly power, avat, what an 84 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: evil fault it were better? I deem it. If my 85 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: kinsmen strike to face them, weaponless and bear my breast 86 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: to shaft and spear, then answer blow with blow. So, 87 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: speaking in the face of those two hosts, Arginas sank 88 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: upon his chariot seat and let fall bow and arrows 89 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: sick at heart. So the prospect of the forthcoming bloodshed 90 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: is just too much for him. But what does he do? 91 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: He turns to his charioteer UH for counsel, and luckily 92 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: his charioteer is the blueskinned Krishna, the avatar of the 93 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: mighty Vishnu, and he gives him his counsel. In fact, 94 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: he gives him his counsel for eighteen chapters. That's that's 95 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: what the Geta is is basically him providing all of 96 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: this uh philosophical and spiritual advice on what it is 97 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: to have to make these sorts of decisions and engage 98 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: in war and duty and so forth. It's kind of 99 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: like something like the Book of Job in the form 100 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: we have it now, which you have a sort of 101 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: small framing narrative that mainly contains a didactic discourse on 102 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: theological matters, right and now if you want to like 103 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: a really good breakdown all of this episode, uh, in 104 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: the Mahabarata of the Gita, and especially as it relates 105 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: to Oppenheimer in his life. There's a wonderful paper that 106 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: you can find out there in full on the on 107 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: the internet from James A. Hegi, a professor of history, 108 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: University of Massachusetts, Dartmouth. Uh. He did. This was a 109 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,799 Speaker 1: nice write up he did for the American Philosophical Society 110 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: in two thousand and He goes into greater death, but 111 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: he also summarizes Chrishna's counsel as follows He's he says, look, 112 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 1: you're a soldier, Arena. You have to fight. Fighting is 113 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: your duty, so you need to do it. Um. He 114 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: also says, look, Krishna, uh, you know this, this god 115 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: who I also am, is going to be the one 116 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: to determine who lives and who dies. It's not your 117 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: place to mourn or rejoice over human loss. In this case, 118 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: you should try to remain unattached from the outcome. And 119 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: then also faith in Chrishna is going to be what 120 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: saves your soul, Argenna. And this is the most important 121 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: part of the whole scenario. But as Argina begins to 122 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: metaphorically see the light or I suppose behold the true 123 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: nature of the reality he's faced with, he asks if 124 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: he can see Chrishna's godlike form, and this site ultimately 125 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: seals Arginna's commitment to do his duty. And this occurs 126 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: in chapter eleven, verse thirty two, where uh where the 127 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: now cosmically embodied Vishnu speaks to Arginna. And what he 128 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: exactly says of two English speaking ears is going to 129 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: depend on the translation. But for instance, the writer translation 130 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: has him say death, am I my present task destruction? Um. 131 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: There's a translation by Arnold that says, thou seest me 132 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: as Time, who kills Time, who brings all to doom, 133 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: the slayer Time, ancient of days, come hither to consume. 134 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: And there's another one I came across that I thought 135 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: was pretty good. I am mighty Time, the source of 136 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: destruction that comes forth to annihilate the world's And I've 137 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: always loved this one by J. A. B. Then Bitinen quote, 138 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: I am time grown old to destroy the world embarked 139 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: on the course of world annihilation. I am time grown old. 140 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 1: Always find that kind of there's something kind of perplexing 141 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 1: about that phrasing that seems to befitting of this all 142 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: powerful being that is, you know, that has taken on 143 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: his true form to you. Yeah, there's something that comes 144 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: in the fullness of time. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting the 145 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: way the personification as time further serves that purpose of 146 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: the kind of depersonalization of of one's role in history. 147 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: You know that there is a kind of like a 148 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: fate or world path that is executed through the passing 149 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: of time, and what you are is someone who plays 150 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: a role within it, not the shaper of it. Yeah. Absolutely, 151 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: Um again, it is it is even in translation as 152 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: it's it's this really perplexing and beautiful passage. Now, it 153 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: should stress that Oppenheimer was not religiously Hindu, but he 154 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: was interested in Hindu scripture, and clearly he found an 155 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: association here between his role in the creation of the 156 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: bomb and the idea of duty performed regardless of potential outcome. Now, 157 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: he certainly is bending the text here a bit, because 158 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: in in the Gita Vishnu slash Krishna is saying, look, 159 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: I'm the prime mover here, I'm the one who destroys you. 160 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: Just do your duty. Oppenheimer seems to be implying the opposite, 161 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: that there perhaps is no all powerful force that bears 162 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 1: the burden of our deeds, that the burden is instead 163 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: on the shoulders of those involved in the creation of 164 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: such a weapon. You know, when he's saying, you know, 165 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: now I am become death, and that we all felt 166 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,079 Speaker 1: that way one way way or another. I mean, I mean, 167 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: he is he is. He He's confronting the personal responsibility 168 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: that seems to be there in the creation of such 169 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: a weapon. But so it does seem that there's this 170 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: this double terror in Oppenheimer's mind, like what if we fail? 171 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 1: But also what if we succeed? Yeah? Yeah, that that 172 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,959 Speaker 1: that's something that Heggia gets into, you know, this this 173 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: idea that there's this an immense fear of failure. You know, 174 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: what if we don't develop the bomb as we've been 175 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: tasked with, uh, and what will that mean for us. 176 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: But then, yeah, well, how much mass human death will 177 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,599 Speaker 1: be brought into the world, even on the short term, Uh, 178 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: if this is successful, without even getting into the way 179 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: that it will change the landscape of of not only 180 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: warfare and and potential warfare in global security, but just 181 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: human civilization itself. Yeah, there's so many ways you can 182 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: track the impact of the invention of nuclear weapons. Clearly 183 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: one of them is a sort of like world psychological impact. 184 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: You know, there's just there's bomb consciousness in the world 185 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: now that that sort of will always be there unless 186 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons are entirely eliminated, But even even then they 187 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: would they'll probably still be the knowledge that they could 188 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,719 Speaker 1: be built again. Yeah. This this reminds me of one 189 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: of Grant Morrison's creations for the Doom Patrol comic book, 190 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: the idea of the Candlemaker, This embodiment of all of 191 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: our apprehension, uh, surrounding nuclear annihilation that takes on this 192 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: kind of godlike really almost kind of terrifying, Vishnu like 193 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: appearance in the human psyche. Is this the guy who's 194 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: made of wax? It is, and we'll have we'll have 195 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: more to say about him in a forthcoming October episode 196 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: of stuff to pull your mind. Oh, that's right, it's 197 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: almost October. It is. But to come back to the 198 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: part of Openheimer's quote that is not part of on 199 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: the of the guida, Um, we knew the world would 200 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: not be this same, uh, and that that is true. 201 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: It wasn't. It isn't. And you're you're probably aware of 202 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: most of the reasons why. But but yeah, today's episode, 203 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 1: we're going to look at some of the particular ways 204 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: that it was changed, uh, particularly regarding um, you know, 205 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: a few environmental scenarios as well as the nature of steel. Yes, 206 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: So getting into these lesser known environmental effects, I want 207 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: to start with the fact that might seem extremely odd, 208 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: which I was reading about in an article published in 209 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: the journal Health Physics in two thousand seven by a 210 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: health physicist named Timothy P. Lynch. And the article is 211 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: called a historically significant shield for in vivo measurements, And 212 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: the fact goes like this. In Richland, Washington, there is 213 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: a research facility called the in Vivo Radio Bioassay and 214 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: Research Facility. And within this facility there is a special 215 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 1: room that is surrounded on all sides by thick plates 216 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: of steel that was once part of a World War 217 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: two ERAB battleship called the USS Indiana. This was a 218 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: battleship that served in the war. It was launched in 219 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: nineteen It was in a number of battles It served 220 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 1: extensively in the Pacific theater during the war, and then 221 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: after it was decommissioned. They took steel out of the 222 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: ship to build this room. Why would anybody do that? Yeah, 223 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: if you don't know the answer, it sounds a bit mysterious, 224 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: right it all. It sounds like the kind of thing 225 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: Grant Morrison would make up where you're having to engage 226 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: in some sort of magical ritual involving steel from old ships. 227 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, it totally sounds like something magical, either 228 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: kind of magical or symbolic thinking of like, you know, 229 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna melt down the statue of the Golden Calf 230 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: for the false Sidle or king or whatever and and 231 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: turn it into something holy. I'm gonna make a throne 232 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: out of all the swords of those who once opposed 233 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: my rule. Exactly. Yes, it is the iron throne. So 234 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: this is the the iron throne of rooms. Now the 235 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: room is again and in vivo radio bioassay detector, and 236 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: Lynch tells us in the paper that quote, the detection 237 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: system is used to monitor workers for intakes of fission 238 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: and activation products. So this means that it's used to 239 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: check workers people to see if they have ingested tiny 240 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: radioactive particles known as radionuclides. Radionuclides consist of atoms that 241 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: can decay into different isotopes and emit radiation as they 242 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: do so. And if you take them into your body, 243 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: say by swallowing them or breathing them in, they can 244 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: do this inside your body and provide internal radiation sources 245 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: which you do not want. They can pose a serious 246 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: health risk. If enough of them accumulate in the body, 247 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:57,119 Speaker 1: a large dose could cause acute radiation syndrome. Prolonged exposure 248 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: to even smaller doses over time could be a risk 249 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: for damaging d n A and causing cancer. This is 250 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: to use one example why you don't want to consume 251 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: things that would come from a radioactively contaminated area, you know, 252 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: somewhere around a nuclear meltdown. Why would you not want to, say, 253 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: you know, roll around in the dirt near Chernobyl or 254 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: drink the water there. It's because the the environment is 255 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: contaminated with radio neuclides, these little particles that you don't 256 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: want anywhere near your body. You do not want them 257 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: going inside you. So people who get tested regularly in 258 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: this room would include Department of Energy workers, but Lynch 259 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: also mentions that the room has been used to test 260 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: a helicopter pilot and some other workers from Chernobyl, as 261 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: well as children from Chernobyl. I guess who lived nearby. 262 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: So this has been in use for a long time, 263 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: and it's used to measure the radiation coming from living people. 264 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: So somebody walks into the detector room, they get scanned 265 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: for radio neuclides across the length of the body by 266 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: accounting system that Lynch describes is comprised of five coaxial 267 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: germanium detectors, and because the level of radiation emitted by 268 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: these radio newclides is usually very faint outside the body, 269 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: you need an extremely sensitive detector. And here you hit 270 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: another problem, which is interference from background levels of radiation 271 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: coming from the rest of the world. So you've got 272 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: cosmic sources, atmospheric sources, terrestrial sources. So in order to 273 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: scan the body properly, you need a room with extremely 274 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: tight radiation shielding. And this is where the steel comes in. 275 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: So the counting chamber here is surrounded by a thin 276 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: layer of lead and then cadmium and then copper. This 277 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: is what's known together as a graded Z shield. And 278 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: then outside that you have thirty solid cinameters of steel 279 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: that's all pre war battleship steel, and this keeps the 280 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: background radiation within the chamber within low minimum detectible activities. 281 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: But the question remains, Okay, so you need thirty centimeters 282 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: of steel, but why couldn't you just build your radiation 283 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: shield out of any old steel, Like, if regular steel 284 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: is good enough for your car and your appliances and 285 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,719 Speaker 1: your sky scrapers, why would you have to harvest the 286 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: flesh of a decommissioned battleship in order to build this 287 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: thick radiation shield. Yeah. Again, it's it's easy to sort 288 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: of leap to magical conclusions. It's kind of like, well, 289 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: we live in a we live in a sinful world. 290 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: We have to build our sacred vessel out of wood 291 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: from the garden of Eden. You know, um, you know, 292 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: the the atomic age is so scarred our world that 293 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: we have to we have to find artifacts from before 294 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: that time. Yeah, it certainly does feel like that, but no, 295 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: there is actually a very good physical, scientific reason for this, 296 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: and maybe we should take a break and then get 297 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: back into it when we come back. All right, we're back. 298 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: So we've been talking about the idea of radiation shielding 299 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: around a very sensitive radiation detector room, and the shielding 300 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: was made out of steel that was harvested from a 301 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: decommissioned World War Two battleship called the USS Indiana. So 302 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: the question is, why would you need to get steel 303 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: from a source like that, Why couldn't you just use 304 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: regular steel. Well, so let's look at how you make steel. 305 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: Steel is of course a mixture of iron and carbon 306 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: and sometimes other additives to create alloys with special properties, 307 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: and crucially for our purposes, the process for making steel 308 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: involves the incorporation of atmospheric gases. I was reading about 309 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: this in an article for Chemistry World by Kit Chapman. 310 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: I think it was also a podcast episode of Their's 311 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: talking about how they're There are two major industrial processes 312 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: for making steel in the modern world. One is known 313 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: as the Bessemer process, and this involves melting the iron 314 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: in a furnace and then removing impurities by blowing air 315 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: through the molten metal. The other is known as the 316 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: bos process, and this is similar, but it uses pure 317 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: oxygen instead of air, but that oxygen is still extracted 318 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: from the atmosphere. And so the problem is that either way, 319 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: the gas you're blowing through the molten iron to make 320 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: your steel comes from the atmosphere, from the air. And 321 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: ever since nuclear weapon tests began in nineteen that has 322 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: not exactly been regular air. It is bomb air. Yeah. 323 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: The the ghastly truth of it is, Yeah, we we 324 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: find ourselves saying, oh, we need to use air in 325 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: this is like, oh, that the air, the air we breathe, 326 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: that's where we set off, um, a whole lot of 327 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons. Um. And and therefore changed it. Um that 328 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: air is not good enough for our steel, for for 329 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: the special steel, at least, just for our breathing and 330 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: our our food and our our children and so forth. 331 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: Now we'll get a bit more into the history of 332 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: the nuclear testing era in a second here, but in short, 333 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: there was a period of time in the middle of 334 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 1: the twentieth century when lots of nuclear weapons tests were 335 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: conducted around the world, and these tests seeded the atmosphere 336 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: with radioactive contamination. Now, the levels today are much lower 337 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 1: than they were, say in the mid nineteen sixties when 338 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: these tests have been going on for a decade and 339 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: a half, but even today the air still contains some 340 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: radioactive isotopes such as cobalt sixty and others. Uh that 341 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: is left over from the hundreds of nuclear detonations that 342 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 1: characterized the post war period. Now this had many effects, 343 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: of course, the most important of which are probably like 344 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: the health effects on humans and the effects on wildlife. 345 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: But another one of the effects is that for a 346 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: long time you couldn't make steel via normal processes without 347 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: it being potentially contaminated with radioactive particles. Not so many 348 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: radioactive particles that it would be unsafe for regular use, 349 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: but enough that it would be uns suitable if you 350 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 1: were trying to make a sensitive instrument. So if you 351 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: needed to make a Geiger counter or shielding for a 352 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: sensitive radio bioassay chamber. Uh, So, what would you do? Well, 353 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: it probably wasn't impossible to make steel without environmental contaminants 354 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: from nuclear tests, but it would have been expensive and difficult. 355 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: And another option presented itself, which was harvesting steel made 356 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: before the Trinity Test in nineteen forty and this precious 357 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: material became known in the industry as low background steel, 358 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: low background because of its low background radiation and what 359 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: would be a great source of huge quantities of pre 360 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: bomb steel old naval vessels. So to come back to 361 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: the Timothy Lynch article about the radio bioassay facility in Richland, uh, 362 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: the USS Indiana was again the battleship that was sourced. 363 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: It was the source here. It was decommissioned on September 364 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: eleven and then sold for scrap after it was taken 365 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: off the navy list in on June one, nineteen sixty two. 366 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 1: And as the ship was dismantled, some parts were kept 367 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: for ceremonial purposes, like the mainmast and a forty millimeter 368 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: gun were put on display on the campus of India University, Bloomington, 369 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: and I know some of its anchors were put on 370 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: display at various museums and memorials. You know, it's compasses, 371 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 1: wheels and all that went to places where where you 372 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: can honor the fallen ships. Well it this really drives 373 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: home this metaphor of the ship is a fallen beast 374 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: like the warship is a thing that once dead. Uh 375 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: you know that certain parts are kept for like you said, 376 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: ceremonial purposes, or display purposes, magical purposes, and yet other 377 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: things are harvested for it for the raw meter bone 378 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: of the creature, right, and the raw meter bone would 379 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: be the steel here the snade up. The bulk of 380 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: the ship was put to low background uses. So in Indiana, 381 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: v A hospital got sixty five tons of low background 382 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: steel from the Indiana and that was used for their own, uh, 383 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: their own background radiation counting facilities. But then Lynch writes 384 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: quote in addition to the VA hospital facility, several large 385 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: sections of the hull, weighing a total of two tons, 386 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,959 Speaker 1: were also fabricated into a room. These applications were probably 387 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: never imagined by the original designers of the Indiana. These 388 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 1: sections of the hull are still being used for the 389 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: original purpose as a shield, but instead of protecting against 390 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: artillery shells and torpedoes, the new purpose is to shield 391 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 1: radiation detectors from the background radiations originating from cosmic, atmospheric, 392 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: man made and terrestrial sources. So what was once armor 393 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: again unitions is now armor against the entire universe and 394 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: its radioactive contents. The room was first constructed at the 395 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: University of Utah Medical Center in Salt Lake City, where 396 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: it was used for many years in radio biology research, 397 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: and then it was finally moved to the Richland Facility 398 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 1: in nine and the Indiana was not the only battleship 399 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: that became a source of low background steel. So after 400 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: the Armistice in nineteen eighteen, at the conclusion of World 401 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: War One, the German High Seas Fleet was ordered to 402 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: report to an Allied base known as the Skapa Flow, 403 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: where the naval vessels were supposed to be handed over 404 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: to the British Royal Navy. But the German officers did 405 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: not like that. They had a different idea and they decided, 406 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: sort of as a kind of last middle finger to 407 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: the British, they scuttled their ships in the harbor. They 408 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: sank their own ships on purpose so that the British 409 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: couldn't have them. So now they're all those shipwrecks there. 410 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,199 Speaker 1: In fact that the Scapa Flow is well known for 411 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: its World War One era shipwrecks, and it's been exploited 412 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: extensively as a source of low background steel. And though 413 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: it's not known for sure I've read rumors, unconfirmed rumors 414 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: that some early spacecraft may have used low background steel 415 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: from the Scapa flow or other wrecks in radiation detectors. 416 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: Interesting now, I'm mentioned this earlier, but it's worth pointing 417 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: out again that the atmosphere is much less radioactive today 418 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: than it was at the height of nuclear testing in 419 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: in the middle of the century. For example, cobalt sixty 420 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: has a half life of about five point three years, 421 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: and there has been a lot less nuclear testing since 422 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: the Partial Nuclear Test Band Treaty in nineteen sixte certainly 423 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: a lot less atmospheric testing, so the atmosphere should be 424 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 1: reduced to um near pre war levels of background contamination 425 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: within a reasonable amount of time. But but it took decades. 426 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: So Robert, when reading about this, I came across a 427 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: comic strip I thought you might like. It's one of 428 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: the x K C D comics. And in it they 429 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: build a time machine. But it turns out the time 430 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 1: machine requires lead from sunken Roman warships and uh. This 431 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: is of course hard to come by, so they determine 432 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: they have enough lead for one trip into the past 433 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: and uh, and in this way through time travel, Greek 434 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: fire is born. It's kind of like the you know, 435 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: if you could you only had one wish from a genie, 436 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: what do you do, well, you wish for more wishes? Yeah, 437 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: more wishes. Yeah. I love this little comic strip. I 438 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,919 Speaker 1: had not seen it before you I shared it with me, 439 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: but it it's especially nice because I just started watching 440 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: some nineties episodes of The Outer Limits, and this is 441 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: the kind of sort of Outer Limits see sort of plot, 442 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: maybe skewed a little bit for comedic purposes, but you know, 443 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: it's the It's the kind of twist you you expect 444 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: in time travel fiction. I like it. Yeah. Uh so 445 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 1: if I wasn't totally clear and you didn't get they 446 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 1: travel back in time and use their future weapons on 447 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: Roman warships, and of course that becomes the legend of 448 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: Greek fire. Yeah. They take out like a helicopter with 449 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: a flamethrower back in time and uh and and set 450 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: to light the Roman ships. Now, I guess we've made 451 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: several references to this nuclear testing age in the middle 452 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. Of course, this began in the 453 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: nineteen forties. The first one was again the Trinity Test 454 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: by the United States in July nine. The Soviet Union 455 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: first performed nuclear weapons tests in nineteen forty nine. Tests 456 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: took place all, you know, all over the place. They 457 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: were in the upper atmosphere, underground, in the ocean, and 458 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,239 Speaker 1: once several other The majority of the tests were by 459 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 1: the United States and the Soviet Union, but several other 460 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: countries eventually got involved, and there were a lot of 461 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: bomb tests in the end. Yes, so you're probably wondering, well, 462 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: just how many? So I looked at it, looked around 463 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: for a good, uh, good total on this. I find 464 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 1: that the estimates very a little bit, I mean not 465 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: a lot. But according to Darryl Kimball, executive director of 466 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: the Arms Control Association, which is a great source for 467 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: for the sort of uh information, this is what they 468 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: had to say in a July report quote. Since the 469 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: first nuclear test explosion on July six, ninety, at least 470 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 1: eight nations have detonated two thousand and fifty six nuclear 471 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: test explosions at dozens of test sites, including Lopnore in China, 472 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: the atolls of the Pacific, Nevada, Algeria, where France conducted 473 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: its first nuclear device, Western Australia, where the UK exploded 474 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons, the South Atlantic semipalatans in Kazakhstan, across Russia 475 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: and elsewhere. So that's over two thousand nuclear test explosions 476 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 1: in total. And if you're looking specifically at atmospheric tests alone, 477 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: which are often considered like the worst kind in in 478 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: terms of proliferating UH contaminants into the atmosphere, of course 479 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: those would be there. There were definitely more than five 480 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: hundred atmospheric tests. Yeah, when you when you start breaking 481 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: down the numbers, the US conducted most of these with 482 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: let's see some two d fifteen atmospheric tests and eight 483 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: hundred and fifteen underground tests. The ussr slash Russia ranks 484 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: second with two hundred and nineteen atmospheric tests and four 485 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: hundred nine underground test and the remaining ranking goes like this. 486 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: You've got France, then the UK and China. They're tied 487 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: UK and China with a total of forty five tests each. 488 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: Then you have North Korea, India and Pakistan. The United 489 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: States is of course responsible for the only wartime detonation 490 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: of nuclear weapons as in utilized as weapons against another people. 491 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: Two bombs deployed against the Japanese cities of Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, 492 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: killing between one hundred nine thousand and two hundred twenty 493 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: six thousand people, mostly civilians. Needless to say, those were 494 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: both atmospheric detonations. Yeah, and of course with each of 495 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: these tests there is going to be more radioactive contamination 496 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: entering the atmosphere. Now, in nineteen sixty three, the Partial 497 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: Nuclear Test Band Treaty managed to ban tests in the 498 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: atmosphere and underwater, so basically it banned all except underground tests. 499 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: It did not really stop nuclear proliferation, but it did 500 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: massively decrease the dispersal of radio nuclides into the atmosphere. Now, 501 00:29:54,400 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: there's been another, um perhaps unexpected, interesting environmental side effect 502 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: of the nuclear testing age, which is how it has 503 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: affected atmospheric levels of carbon fourteen and the way that 504 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: this has turned into an unexpected number of scientific tools 505 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: that can be used to study the natural world. So, 506 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,959 Speaker 1: in nature, carbon fourteen is the radioactive isotope of carbon 507 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: that is generated in Earth's atmosphere every minute of every day. 508 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: The Earth is of course bombarded by cosmic rays, and 509 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: cosmic rays are charged particles, usually protons and atomic nuclei, 510 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: which are emitted from high energy sources including the Sun, 511 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: but also places far away, usually traveling near the speed 512 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: of light. And when one of these high energy particles 513 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: enters the atmosphere, it sometimes strikes atoms to generate free neutrons, 514 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: and a free neutron then combines with a regular atom 515 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: of nitrogen fourteen to produce an atom of carbon fourteen, 516 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: and this carbon fourteen then pairs up with oxygen to 517 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: create carbon fourteens CEO two. So there's a lot of 518 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: carbon fourteen in the atmosphere is just produced at a 519 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: steady rate naturally as the cosmic rays are coming in, 520 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: and this carbon fourteen c O two gets into everything 521 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: that ingests atmospheric carbon. So plants suck in c O 522 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: two with a predictable amount of carbon fourteen and they 523 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: use that carbon to make their bodies, and then the 524 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: trees and the grass and the corn are all made 525 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: out of carbon content that is retrieved from the air 526 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: and has a certain amount of carbon fourteen in it. 527 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: So if you do a molecular analysis of a plant, 528 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: you will have a certain proportion of carbon fourteen in there, 529 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: because the atmosphere does about one out of every trillion 530 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: carbon atoms is a carbon fourteen atom but of course 531 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't stop at plants, because we also exist in 532 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: a carbon fourteen generating atmosphere. You know, all the chemistry 533 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: on Earth is sort of interconnected. So we eat those plants, 534 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: and we eat animals that eat those plants, so our 535 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: bodies also have a predictable amount of carbon fourteen content. 536 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: And as I said earlier, carbon fourteen is radioactive, which 537 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: is another way of saying it's unstable. It has a 538 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: known half life, so we know that it decays into 539 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: other isotopes at a regular predictable rate. So if you 540 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: die and you stop breathing and stop eating, the amount 541 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: of carbon fourteen in your body will steadily decrease over 542 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: the years. And what scientists figured out in the twentieth 543 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: century was that you could use the amount of carbon 544 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: fourteen in a formerly living object or an object formerly 545 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: incorporating a known percentage of atmospheric carbon, to see approximately 546 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: how long it had been since that organism stopped ingesting 547 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: carbon from the environment, in other words, when it died. 548 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: And this has been amazingly useful to the historical sciences. 549 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: This this has created the era of carbon fourteen dating. 550 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: It's been enormously useful to archaeologists and all kinds of 551 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: other scientists to analyze and date organisms and substances from 552 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: the past. But nuclear testing, beginning in the nineteen forties 553 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: and especially since the nineteen fifties, has introduced new wrinkles 554 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: into this. It has introduced new layers of radio carbon science, 555 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: both some complications to the existing radio carbon science and 556 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: new tools that scientists couldn't have predicted at first that 557 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: they would have. Uh. And so next, I just wanted 558 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: to talk a bit about a really, really excellent article 559 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: in the Atlantic by by Carl Zimmer. Can we say 560 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: a friend of the show? Carl Zimmer? He's a former 561 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: guest of the show, Carl Zimmer. Um, let's see what 562 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: we had. We laid out specific rules for this in 563 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: the past. Right, if you're on the show once, you're 564 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: a former guest or a previous guest of the show. Okay, 565 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: I think you have to be on two times to 566 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: be a friend of the show or is it three times? 567 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: I can't remember how that status we break. We've been 568 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: the rules all the time. Uh. Carl is one of 569 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: my favorite science writers. He wrote an excellent book called 570 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: She Has Her Mother's Laugh that we talked about on 571 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: the show, and and this article is just fantastic. But 572 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: it's called nuclear tests marked life on Earth with a 573 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: radioactive spike. And this article of course is worth reading 574 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 1: on its own, but I wanted to talk about a 575 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: few things that Carl gets into here about some of 576 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: the environmental effects of of nuclear testing, specifically relating to 577 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: carbon fourteen. So Carl, Carl Zimmer, in addition to having 578 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: been a wonderful and just cheerful guest of the show, 579 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 1: is just all a wonderful writer. As always, I want 580 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: to read just a little bit from this article here 581 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: to to set the stage. Quote, carbon fourteen, produced by 582 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: hydrogen bombs spread over the entire world. It worked itself 583 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: into the atmosphere, the oceans, and practically every living thing. 584 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,399 Speaker 1: As it spread, it exposed secrets. It can reveal when 585 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: we were born. It tracks hidden changes to our hearts 586 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 1: and brains. It lights up the cryptic channels that joined 587 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 1: the entire biosphere into a single network of chemical flux. 588 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: This man made burst of carbon fourteen has been such 589 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 1: a revelation that scientists referred to it as quote the 590 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 1: bomb spike. Only now is the bomb spike close to disappearing, 591 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: But as it vanishes. Scientists have found a new use 592 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: for it to track global warming, the next self inflicted 593 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: threat to our survival. The part of this that sticks 594 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: with me the most is where he talks about how 595 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: looking at carbon fourteen in the way it penetrates the 596 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: whole biosphere. Really, it's one of those you know, like 597 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: the brain lights up with the sudden realization that uh, 598 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: to use a sort of stone or cliche, everything's connected, 599 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: but it really is it like literally in a scientific way, 600 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: is there is a single sort of chemical flux that 601 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: that takes place all throughout this planet. Yeah. I keep 602 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: coming back to this, this basic like this this uh, 603 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,760 Speaker 1: this sort of you know, arguably hippie notion, this everything 604 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: is connected, we're all one world, on people, etcetera, which 605 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: I know is something that everyone has heard so many 606 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: times that even if you believe in it wholeheartedly, it 607 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: can it can sound a little uh uh limp, you know, 608 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 1: in in your ears. And yet like that's I mean, 609 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: that is the reality that drives through and all of 610 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: this science, and it stands in such harsh contrast to 611 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: the way uh, certain individuals uh in uh like the 612 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: political and the military sphere view nuclear weapons the idea 613 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:26,879 Speaker 1: that like, you know, certainly we can say a head 614 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 1: of state using a nuclear weapon against the city within 615 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: their own nation, that would be that would be ridiculous, 616 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: that would be monstrous. But it's but but then the 617 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: you know, people will say, oh, but you use it 618 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: against another nation and other people, that's less monstrous. But no, no, 619 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: it's all interconnected in in a in in a in 620 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: a scientifically verifiable way. I mean, it's it's one atmosphere 621 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: at the very base level without getting into, um, some 622 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 1: of the other um issues we're going to explore, and 623 00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: just the basic ethical framework of the choice. Yeah. Mean, 624 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,800 Speaker 1: it makes me think of that commonly sided thing about 625 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: astronauts very often, you know, seeing the Earth from space 626 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: and then suddenly feeling more of a kinship with all 627 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: of humankind and not feeling nearly as much the uh, 628 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: not feeling the reality of national borders and things like that, uh, 629 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 1: nearly as much anymore. Uh. It's funny how easily those 630 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: illusions can be dissolved just by a sort of a 631 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: single visual impression or a single realization about saying how 632 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: chemistry works, that you're suddenly like, oh, wait a minute, 633 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: you know, there's just sort of earth life, and we 634 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: we really need to make this work and not create 635 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: problems that aren't necessary to begin with. Yeah, those are 636 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: those lines and those naps. They really do nothing against 637 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: a radioactive particles and certainly concepts such as nuclear fallout 638 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,879 Speaker 1: or um or a climate change. So going into Karl 639 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: Zimmer's article, as I said, it's worth reading the article 640 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: in full. It's really fantastic. He begins by telling the 641 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: story of the Castle Bravo tests in nineteen fifty four, 642 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: which is uh, both all inspiring and horrifying and heartbreaking. Um. 643 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: But later on, when he's getting into the scientific history 644 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: of of carbon fourteen, he talks about the Chicago physicist 645 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 1: Willard Libby, who was a Nobel Prize winning or did 646 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: I say physicist, I think he would be called a 647 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: physical chemist. Uh. He was somebody who studied radioactive elements 648 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: and and one of was one of the major developers 649 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: of carbon fourteen dating. And one of the really interesting 650 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: things that Libby does is that Libby ends up comparing 651 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:38,320 Speaker 1: measurements of methane from say living current sources, say methane 652 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: coming off of a sewage plant. So this is going 653 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,760 Speaker 1: to be sewage from things that are currently alive, versus 654 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: methane coming off of fossil fuels like oil that has 655 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,320 Speaker 1: been there for millions of years. And what he showed 656 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: was that, say, the methane coming off of the excreta 657 00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 1: produced by living humans is something close to about the 658 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: atmospheric level. Meanwhile, what's coming the methane coming off of 659 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 1: fossil fuels, coming off of say oil that's been there 660 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,879 Speaker 1: for millions of years, has essentially no carbon fourteen in it, right, 661 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 1: because it's been there for so long that all of 662 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 1: the radioactive isotopes of carbon have decayed, so it's just 663 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: got regular carbon in it. And there was some other 664 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 1: really interesting experiments too, but one of the things I 665 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: wanted to focus on was Karl's profiling of the New 666 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: Zealand physicist Ethel Rafter. So Rafter was picking up on 667 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 1: Libby's research and he was interested in radiocarbon dating. In 668 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: its early days, he used it to test the bones 669 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 1: of extinct birds and ancient volcanic eruptions, but he also 670 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: tried to help refine the technique itself by performing measurements 671 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,399 Speaker 1: of the radio carbon in the atmosphere. And he would 672 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 1: do this by setting out a tray of lie on 673 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,359 Speaker 1: top of it on a hilltop, and the lie would 674 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 1: capture c O two from the air, and then he 675 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 1: would measure the atmospheric levels of carbon fourteen or the ratio. 676 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,720 Speaker 1: Of course, whenever we're talking about levels of carbon fourteen, 677 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about the ratio of carbon fourteen to regular carbon. 678 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: And so Rafter would have been doing his research in 679 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, and what he expected was that levels 680 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: of radio carbon in the atmosphere would sort of bounce 681 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,760 Speaker 1: up and down. There'd just be sort of a natural 682 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 1: fluctuation around a baseline. But instead he found an extremely 683 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: steady trend. The level of carbon fourteen was just continually 684 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 1: going up. And what was the reason. While it was 685 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, so to quote from the article, the 686 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: Castle Bravo test and the ones that followed had to 687 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,280 Speaker 1: be the source. They were turning the atmosphere upside down. 688 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: Instead of cosmic rays falling from space, they were sending 689 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: neutrons up to the sky, creating a huge new supply 690 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 1: of radio carbon. In nineteen fifty seven, Rafter published his 691 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: results in the journal Science. The implications were immediately clear 692 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 1: and astonishing. Man made carbon fourteen was spreading across the 693 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: planet from test sites in the Pacific and the Arctic. 694 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: It was even passing from the air into the oceans 695 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: and trees. And when they checked, they found increasing levels 696 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: of radiocarbon in everything, in tree rings in Texas, in 697 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 1: snails in Holland, in the lungs of recently deceased people 698 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: from New York, even in the blood of living people. Uh, 699 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:28,399 Speaker 1: there's just extra carbon fourteen in everything. And as bomb radiocarbon, 700 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: So the bomb radio carbon would be would be up 701 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 1: in the upper atmosphere, and as it settles back down 702 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 1: to Earth, it becomes a sort of tracer molecule that 703 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,280 Speaker 1: can be used as a scientific tool. So Carl quotes 704 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,320 Speaker 1: from somebody named Steve Beauprey who's an oceanographer at Stony 705 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: Brook University, and he's quoted in the article saying that 706 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: carbon fourteen is inextricably linked to our understanding of how 707 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,800 Speaker 1: water moves. And so I thought this was so interesting. 708 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 1: So in the nineteen seventies, oceanographers found that there was 709 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: bomb radio carbon that was distributed throughout the top one 710 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 1: thousand meters of the ocean's water column. So if you 711 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 1: go down a thousand meters you're going to find, you know, 712 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: atmospheric radiocarbon, the elevated levels that you'd get from a bomb. 713 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 1: But then if you go down below that suddenly not 714 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: so much anymore. And this became a really important piece 715 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: of evidence in estimating the or in establishing that the ocean, 716 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: like the atmosphere, had layers, and that water was primarily 717 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: circulated within rather than between these layers. Carl Wright's quote, 718 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 1: the warm, relatively fresh water on the surface of the 719 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 1: ocean glides over the cold, salty depths. These surface currents 720 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 1: become saltier as they evaporate, and eventually, at a few 721 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: crucial spots on the planet, these streams get so dense 722 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 1: that they fall to the bottom of the ocean. The 723 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: bomb radio carbon from Castle Bravo didn't start plunging down 724 00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,879 Speaker 1: into the depths of the North Atlantic until the night 725 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 1: teen eighties, when John Clark this character from the Castle 726 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: Bravo test was two decades into retirement. It's still down 727 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 1: there where it will be carried along the sea floor 728 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,760 Speaker 1: by bottom hugging ocean currents for hundreds of years before 729 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,759 Speaker 1: it rises to the light of day. Uh And he 730 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 1: points out also that lots of ocean life bears the 731 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: seal of the bomb spike. Again, this is from atmospheric 732 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: tests and so this is not even underwater tests. This 733 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: is atmospheric tests coming down into the ocean. Bomb radio 734 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:34,239 Speaker 1: carbon falls into the ocean. It infiltrates everything from algae 735 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: to the rings of calcium carbonate within coral growth, and 736 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: then it forms this kind of slime, so uh quote, 737 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 1: the living things in the upper reaches of the ocean 738 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,760 Speaker 1: release organic carbon that falls gently to the sea floor 739 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: a jumble of protoplasmic goo, dolphin droppings, starfish eggs, and 740 00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: all manner of detritus that scientists call marine snow. In 741 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:05,800 Speaker 1: recent decades that marine snow has become more radioactive. And 742 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,919 Speaker 1: the article he also profiles a researcher named Mary gay 743 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,399 Speaker 1: Lord who works at the National Ocean Science is Accelerator 744 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: Mass Spectraumetry Facility, which is known as No Sam's for short, 745 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: and that's at the Woods Hole, which is where Hooper 746 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 1: comes from in Jaws, and she measures radiocarbon and everything 747 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: from bat guano to fish eyes. There's a lot about 748 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: fish eyes in this article, which is more interesting than 749 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,480 Speaker 1: you think because surprisingly the study of radio carbon and 750 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: fish eye lenses can tell us a lot like the 751 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,839 Speaker 1: cores of fish eye lenses have the same levels of 752 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 1: carbon fourteen as the fish did when they were still 753 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: egg so it's a really good age indicator. And this 754 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,879 Speaker 1: knowledge was used by Danish researchers in to create an 755 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 1: aging metric for these cold bottom dwelling animals, the greenland sharks, 756 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: which you might have read about them because they grow 757 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,239 Speaker 1: so old. This helped confir arm the discovery that these 758 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 1: animals could live to be almost four hundred years old, 759 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,799 Speaker 1: so a lot of these are pre bomb sharks. And 760 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 1: actually this also applies to humans. People born in the 761 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:14,040 Speaker 1: early nineteen sixties have more radio carbon in the lenses 762 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,800 Speaker 1: in their eyes than people born before the nuclear testing age, 763 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: and people born in the years since then have less 764 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,760 Speaker 1: and less as time passes since the since the Partial 765 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,879 Speaker 1: Test Band Treaty. Bomb radio carbon can also be used 766 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,000 Speaker 1: to date human teeth. But there's a very sobering fact 767 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 1: that's discussed at the end of Zimmer's article, which is 768 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: that the proportion of carbon fourteen currently in the atmosphere 769 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,880 Speaker 1: is actually a bit lower than would be predicted by 770 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 1: the known nuclear tests and the known rate of decay 771 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,959 Speaker 1: and absorption by the Earth and seas. So what makes 772 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: the difference, Like why is there less carbon fourteen than 773 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,839 Speaker 1: we think there should be? And it turns out there's 774 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: an answer to that. The answer is fossil fuels. Remember 775 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,520 Speaker 1: how I mentioned earlier that the methane coming off of 776 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 1: oil had all been basically no carbon fourteen in it 777 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: because the oil is so old, all of the carbon 778 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,879 Speaker 1: fourteen has already decayed, it's gone. Uh So, as we 779 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:13,400 Speaker 1: release carbon from these ancient carbon sources into the atmosphere, 780 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,520 Speaker 1: we're putting a much higher percentage than normal of regular 781 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,239 Speaker 1: carbon up there, which actually dilutes what carbon fourteen there is. 782 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 1: Uh Carl Carl Zimmer points out in the nineteen fifty four, 783 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,800 Speaker 1: which was the year of the Castle Bravo test, humans 784 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 1: emitted six billion tons of carbon dioxide that year uh 785 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:39,200 Speaker 1: quote in humans emitted about thirty seven billion tons, which 786 00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 1: is more than six times more as Willard Libby first discovered, 787 00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,960 Speaker 1: this fossil fuel has no radiocarbon left. By burning it, 788 00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,279 Speaker 1: we are lowering the level of radiocarbon in the atmosphere 789 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,479 Speaker 1: like a bartender watering down the top shelf. Liquor, which 790 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,800 Speaker 1: is so strange. So the remaining signature of humanity's first 791 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,880 Speaker 1: great sort of civilis s ation level threat technology is 792 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,319 Speaker 1: being deluded by the ever increasing mark of our other one, 793 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: by the second one. Wow. Alright, I guess we need 794 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,319 Speaker 1: to take a quick break, but we'll be right back 795 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:16,799 Speaker 1: with more than thank So. I have another example of 796 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: a specific resulting scientific discovery from a nuclear test that 797 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,799 Speaker 1: that I ran across UM and it it concerns uh. 798 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: The test known as Starfish Prime. So this was a 799 00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:33,920 Speaker 1: one point for megaton thermonuclear device launched two hundred and 800 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,759 Speaker 1: fifty miles or four hundred kilometers into the sky near 801 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,320 Speaker 1: Johnston A Tall. So it is the largest outer space 802 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:46,800 Speaker 1: nuclear detonation ever committed. It occurred around eleven pm local time. Uh, 803 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,800 Speaker 1: this would be um you know, in the in that region, 804 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,400 Speaker 1: and the thermonuclear sphere burned like a new sun in 805 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,720 Speaker 1: the night sky. And if you look up Starfish Prime 806 00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,400 Speaker 1: online you can you can see photos that were taken 807 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,719 Speaker 1: from Honolulu, Hawaii at the time, and it does look 808 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:06,759 Speaker 1: like like a sun in the sky. Wow. Afterwards, an 809 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,480 Speaker 1: aura could be seen as well for thousands of kilometers. 810 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,279 Speaker 1: It it also resulted, and this kind of comes down 811 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,879 Speaker 1: to one of the key findings. It resulted in an 812 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,359 Speaker 1: electromagnetic pulse or an e MP, something that had been 813 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,759 Speaker 1: suspected by scientists, but this was really the proof in 814 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,200 Speaker 1: the pudding. It ended up disrupting the flow of electricity 815 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:30,400 Speaker 1: for hundreds of kilometers around it, with its most of 816 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 1: its disruptions felt in Hawaii itself. It also damaged six 817 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:39,000 Speaker 1: satellites which ultimately failed, and other failures might be linked 818 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,640 Speaker 1: to starfish prime as well. So this was this was 819 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,960 Speaker 1: ended up being an effect that was far stronger than anticipated. 820 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,880 Speaker 1: Now now that that's all interesting, but obviously a test 821 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,640 Speaker 1: like this expand is going to expand on our understanding 822 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,040 Speaker 1: of the weapon technology being tested. But the side effect 823 00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,240 Speaker 1: here is that the CD one O nine tracers released 824 00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,160 Speaker 1: by the detonation allowed science just to work out some 825 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 1: of the seasonal mixing rate of polar and tropical air masses. 826 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,920 Speaker 1: So again comes down to the fluid dynamics of of 827 00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:13,400 Speaker 1: in our earlier example the ocean, and here with atmospheric movement. 828 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,279 Speaker 1: This also touches on something that comes up with the 829 00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,840 Speaker 1: Castle Bravo test and a number of other tests. You know, 830 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,600 Speaker 1: the Castle Bravo being the hydrogen bomb that turned out 831 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,320 Speaker 1: to be a much bigger explosive yield than was predicted. 832 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,600 Speaker 1: And this is not just a scientific curiosity, and this 833 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,600 Speaker 1: is something that that had tragic consequences for real people 834 00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,399 Speaker 1: like the people of the wrong gelop atoll, who were 835 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,960 Speaker 1: pretty nearby where the Castle Bravo test was conducted, were 836 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,600 Speaker 1: affected horribly with by like fallout from the test just 837 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:44,520 Speaker 1: because it was so much bigger than the scientists thought 838 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,440 Speaker 1: it was gonna be. Yeah, you see this this trend 839 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,319 Speaker 1: with a number of the earlier tests, um, where they 840 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,840 Speaker 1: they don't get quite what they were expecting or you know, 841 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,319 Speaker 1: it's larger, or it doesn't go off exactly the way 842 00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,040 Speaker 1: it was planned and and and indeed, uh, in many 843 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:04,280 Speaker 1: cases it means people were were sickened, people's health suffered 844 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 1: because of these tests. Environments were um, we're tainted by 845 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,320 Speaker 1: the radiation, are still tainted. In some case cases people 846 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,239 Speaker 1: have been dislocated and have not yet been able to return. Um. 847 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,839 Speaker 1: You know, we believe we're calling this episode the atomic scar. 848 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:21,839 Speaker 1: But a scar to we tend to think of as 849 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,880 Speaker 1: something that is visible but is fully healed. And the 850 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,880 Speaker 1: thing about a lot of these these tests is that 851 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,759 Speaker 1: it's it's not so much a scar, but it is like, um, 852 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,080 Speaker 1: a thick scab, and if we're to to pick at 853 00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,560 Speaker 1: it again, uh, we may bleed. In fact, we may 854 00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,960 Speaker 1: we may bleed um for the duration of our lives 855 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:45,600 Speaker 1: sort of situations. So um uh so so yeah, these 856 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,040 Speaker 1: uh kind of comes back to what we said earlier about, 857 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,640 Speaker 1: you know, about the world in which we conduct these tests. 858 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:53,840 Speaker 1: You know, we we might think, oh, we're not setting 859 00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,640 Speaker 1: this off in the house, We're setting off in the backyard, 860 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,680 Speaker 1: you know. But but ultimately, you know, the wilds of Nevada, 861 00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:03,120 Speaker 1: or are some islands you know off the coast of Australia, 862 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,640 Speaker 1: these are these are part of the world we live in, 863 00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,000 Speaker 1: as part of the atmosphere that we all breathe, part 864 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,479 Speaker 1: of the ocean that we all depend on. And even 865 00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,920 Speaker 1: underground tests are not without some environmental consequences. I mean, 866 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,080 Speaker 1: not nearly as much as a atmospheric or underwater tests, 867 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:21,439 Speaker 1: but underground tests two can can produce leakages. Yeah. Now, 868 00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,759 Speaker 1: on the subject of underwater tests, I was reading a 869 00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,879 Speaker 1: little bit more about these and these were banned by 870 00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,080 Speaker 1: the Partial Nuclear Test Band Treaty in nineteen sixty three, 871 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,600 Speaker 1: but the US, the UK, and the uss ARE managed 872 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:37,000 Speaker 1: to conduct a total of nine before that that that 873 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:41,359 Speaker 1: band came into place, and these included UM shallow detonations 874 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:45,080 Speaker 1: to see how the the the the weapon would impact ships, 875 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,799 Speaker 1: as well as deep detonations to see how they might 876 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,360 Speaker 1: be used against submarines or how they would impact submarines. 877 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,400 Speaker 1: The deepest was the nineteen fifty five Wigwam test at 878 00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,560 Speaker 1: a depth of two thousand feet six d and ten. 879 00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,959 Speaker 1: Now an author by the name of Sarah Laskal Roda 880 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,000 Speaker 1: a really good article about about the US tests for 881 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,640 Speaker 1: Atlas Obscura, pointing out that the water is what really 882 00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,280 Speaker 1: made the tests more problematic because because instead of spreading 883 00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:16,000 Speaker 1: radioactive particles through a wider atmospheric region, it instead released 884 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:21,200 Speaker 1: an immediate radioactive water cloud. So the ships used in 885 00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:25,600 Speaker 1: these tests were highly radiated and impossible to clean, so 886 00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,240 Speaker 1: they were just towed out to the deep and scuttled. 887 00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:32,120 Speaker 1: Now Alascow rights that quote. The Atomic Energy Commission would 888 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,040 Speaker 1: not sign off on it until it was clear that 889 00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:35,839 Speaker 1: no one in the United States or Mexico was at 890 00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,239 Speaker 1: risk and that the test area was relatively free of 891 00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:42,879 Speaker 1: marine life. UM but but the tests certainly killed fish 892 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,239 Speaker 1: and other organisms. UM. I read an account by a 893 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,840 Speaker 1: UK veteran who was of course working with some of 894 00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:52,279 Speaker 1: those UK UH tests, claims that men were sent out 895 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:56,120 Speaker 1: in boats to collect dead irradiated fish after after the 896 00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,000 Speaker 1: test was conducted. And this particular test would have been 897 00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:03,719 Speaker 1: uh the ninth two hurricane test in the Montebello Islands, 898 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,360 Speaker 1: as this was the only UK underwater nuclear test that 899 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,640 Speaker 1: was conducted, and of course in a lot of these 900 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,040 Speaker 1: like tests in the Pacific Islands and stuff, even when 901 00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,480 Speaker 1: the explosion was carried out in the atmosphere, it was 902 00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,880 Speaker 1: still extremely damaging to marine life. Like yeah, there's a 903 00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,520 Speaker 1: part in uh Karl Simmer's article that we were talking 904 00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,280 Speaker 1: about earlier where he talks about with the Castle Bravo 905 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,080 Speaker 1: test in fifty four quote, within seconds, the fireball had 906 00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:32,400 Speaker 1: lofted ten million tons of pulverized coral reef coated in 907 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,680 Speaker 1: radioactive material. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, these these atmospheric tests 908 00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 1: were also devastating to these areas. One area that frequently 909 00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,160 Speaker 1: comes up is is Bikini at all, this is where 910 00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:48,080 Speaker 1: the first underwater test was was was conducted Baker, but 911 00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,040 Speaker 1: also you had many other atmospheric tests that took place 912 00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,279 Speaker 1: there as well. And what's interesting here is that there's 913 00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,960 Speaker 1: been there's some studies in in over the past decade 914 00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,560 Speaker 1: or so that have really looked at how the local 915 00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:04,120 Speaker 1: environ has has bounced back, and indeed it does show 916 00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,319 Speaker 1: that nature can be very resistant to even this kind 917 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:11,120 Speaker 1: of you know, intense damage. Uh that they say that 918 00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,799 Speaker 1: the corals have recolonized bomb craters. Other life forms are 919 00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,840 Speaker 1: doing well, even if there are some curious mutations like 920 00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,680 Speaker 1: sharks missing their second dorsal fin that sort of thing. 921 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,840 Speaker 1: The general belief is that UM, at least with the 922 00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,480 Speaker 1: with Bikini, that the worst affected fish died off decades ago, 923 00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,800 Speaker 1: and today's fish populations are only exposed to low radiation 924 00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:34,319 Speaker 1: levels as they frequently swim in and out. Plus, these 925 00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:37,400 Speaker 1: are also areas that have been left alone by humans, 926 00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:42,360 Speaker 1: they've more so than other marine areas. Now. One should 927 00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,200 Speaker 1: also note that the occupants of the area around Bikini 928 00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,040 Speaker 1: Atoll and the Marshall Islands were displaced by the test, 929 00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,359 Speaker 1: some one seven people, I believe, and they've never been 930 00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:56,120 Speaker 1: able to return. That their dislocation was supposed to be temporary. UM. 931 00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,040 Speaker 1: But but then on top of that children in the 932 00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:03,360 Speaker 1: Marshall Islands uh were observed to experience thyroid problems long 933 00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:08,280 Speaker 1: after nuclear tests ended. Now we've thus far been talking 934 00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:12,560 Speaker 1: about nuclear testing, and and of course beyond that we 935 00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:14,160 Speaker 1: we can, I think we can. We can hardly talk 936 00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:18,640 Speaker 1: about nuclear testing without at least briefly discussing the prospect 937 00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,279 Speaker 1: of nuclear war itself, because that is ultimately what the 938 00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,680 Speaker 1: testing is all about. Now you can make the argument 939 00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:28,800 Speaker 1: that ultimately it's about preventing uh that's sort of warfare 940 00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,440 Speaker 1: from taking place by making sure you have uh, you know, 941 00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:35,920 Speaker 1: a terrifying number of of of nuclear weapons in your armament, 942 00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:38,400 Speaker 1: or you know, the reverse is true, that you are 943 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,480 Speaker 1: developing these weapons which may potentially be used. Any nuclear 944 00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:47,120 Speaker 1: weapon is a potential holocaust, uh you know, contained within 945 00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,759 Speaker 1: the warhead, right, I mean, I think I guess the 946 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:55,080 Speaker 1: advocates of the pro nuclear armament theory would say, well, 947 00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,319 Speaker 1: what we did is that we did these tests so 948 00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,719 Speaker 1: that we wouldn't have to have actual wars, and the 949 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,840 Speaker 1: uts discourage say the United States and the Soviet Union 950 00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,479 Speaker 1: from actually ever initiating a real, you know, shooting war 951 00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:10,120 Speaker 1: with each other. Of course, there are plenty of proxy 952 00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:13,200 Speaker 1: conflicts and all that. I mean in a way you 953 00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,359 Speaker 1: can only you know, you can never know how sure 954 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,279 Speaker 1: to be about counterfactuals like that. People are saying, well, 955 00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:20,759 Speaker 1: things would have been worse if we hadn't had the 956 00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:24,520 Speaker 1: nuclear threat looming over us to discourage us from going 957 00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,439 Speaker 1: to war. I guess it's hard to know whether that's 958 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,439 Speaker 1: true or not. But I guess it's also though, it's 959 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,640 Speaker 1: just hard to calculate costs and benefits when you're thinking 960 00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,880 Speaker 1: about when you know the potential cost is like a 961 00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:42,600 Speaker 1: civilization ending worldwide calamity. Yeah, and and that indeed, you know, 962 00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:44,720 Speaker 1: to come back to the the idea of the world 963 00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:46,960 Speaker 1: changing forever. I mean that is one of the frequently 964 00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:49,759 Speaker 1: touched upon aspects of the whole scenario, is that it 965 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:54,719 Speaker 1: is humanity's ability to to truly destroy itself and and 966 00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,640 Speaker 1: ultimately within a very short period of time. Now, I 967 00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:00,839 Speaker 1: know that this kind of brings as to a kind 968 00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,040 Speaker 1: of a dark corner for the end of the podcast. 969 00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,120 Speaker 1: And I know a lot of you don't like considering 970 00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:09,600 Speaker 1: such possibilities. I don't like considering such possibilities either. If 971 00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:14,040 Speaker 1: you are troubled by such possibilities, I would urge you 972 00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,360 Speaker 1: to consider following UH a group like the Arms Control 973 00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:20,800 Speaker 1: Association at Arms Control about org or any number of 974 00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:25,920 Speaker 1: other anti nuclear weapon or nuclear weapon control or disarmament groups. 975 00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,520 Speaker 1: And if you're in a position to use your vote 976 00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:32,080 Speaker 1: to favor candidates political candidates who take nuclear testing and 977 00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:37,080 Speaker 1: nuclear war seriously and are committed to certainly not testing them, 978 00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,200 Speaker 1: but even you know, not even raising the question of 979 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,720 Speaker 1: their deployment or questioning why they shouldn't be used and 980 00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,800 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, then you should you should do so. Yeah, 981 00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:47,640 Speaker 1: I mean, the Cold War may be over, but there 982 00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,479 Speaker 1: are still lots and lots of nuclear weapons out there, 983 00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:55,040 Speaker 1: and UH, and fantasizing about nuclear escalation is not a joke. 984 00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:58,360 Speaker 1: It's not It's not something to play around with, absolutely, 985 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:00,480 Speaker 1: especially since I think we've ted on some of this 986 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:04,960 Speaker 1: on the show before. Like the the the barriers between 987 00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:10,360 Speaker 1: our our current world and one of nuclear warfare, those 988 00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:12,880 Speaker 1: those barriers are not as thick as as sometimes we 989 00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,240 Speaker 1: might think they are, Like the safeguards in place are 990 00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:20,200 Speaker 1: are not that robust. We we need to do everything 991 00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:25,680 Speaker 1: we can to to to to to lessen the possibility, UH, 992 00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:29,240 Speaker 1: that such a thing could come to pass, either in 993 00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:31,720 Speaker 1: a in a large scale certainly, but even at a 994 00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,959 Speaker 1: quote unquote small scale. Alright, On that note, we're gonna 995 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,800 Speaker 1: go and close it out. In the meantime, we would 996 00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,080 Speaker 1: of course love to hear from you, oh your thoughts 997 00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:44,320 Speaker 1: about nuclear testing, nuclear weaponry, etcetera, or just so do 998 00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,640 Speaker 1: the overall impact on all of this on on our 999 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,320 Speaker 1: our world and our culture in the many ways that 1000 00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,360 Speaker 1: the world would not be the same in the meantime, 1001 00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:55,120 Speaker 1: if you want to check out other episodes of our show, 1002 00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:56,920 Speaker 1: you can do so by finding us wherever you get 1003 00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:59,480 Speaker 1: your podcasts and wherever that happens to be. We just 1004 00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,320 Speaker 1: asked that you rate, review, and subscribe. Hich Thanks as 1005 00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,520 Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If 1006 00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:06,960 Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with 1007 00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:10,040 Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest topic 1008 00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:12,280 Speaker 1: for the future, just to say hello, you can email 1009 00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:23,040 Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 1010 00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,600 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 1011 00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,880 Speaker 1: For more podcasts my Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 1012 00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:40,480 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to your favorite shows