WEBVTT - Becoming a District Attorney 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:24.396 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:24.436 --> 0:00:27.836 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:28.276 --> 0:00:33.916 I'm Noah Feldman. We've just come through an extraordinary national 0:00:34.076 --> 0:00:38.196 election and some of us are slowly beginning to think 0:00:38.276 --> 0:00:42.036 about trying to catch our breaths. But today on the show, 0:00:42.156 --> 0:00:46.196 we're going to talk to a woman who's just getting started. 0:00:46.796 --> 0:00:50.596 Tali far Haiti and Weinstein is a candidate for District 0:00:50.596 --> 0:00:54.596 Attorney of Manhattan, and that's a race which is just 0:00:54.956 --> 0:00:58.556 starting to heat up. We wanted to speak to Tally 0:00:58.676 --> 0:01:02.516 for two reasons. First, she's a fascinating example of a 0:01:02.596 --> 0:01:06.276 person deciding to run for office for the first time 0:01:06.636 --> 0:01:10.156 in the hopes of making change in the way of 0:01:10.196 --> 0:01:14.436 this historic national election. And she's reflecting on some of 0:01:14.476 --> 0:01:19.436 the hardest policy issues that face public officials today and 0:01:19.596 --> 0:01:23.396 that will face the Biden Harris administration when it eventually 0:01:23.476 --> 0:01:28.156 takes office. Second, Tally is also a colleague. As part 0:01:28.196 --> 0:01:33.876 of her campaign, she's launched a podcast called Hearing Liked Background. 0:01:33.956 --> 0:01:37.436 It's produced by Pushkin Industries, and as you'll hear in 0:01:37.436 --> 0:01:41.236 a minute, Tally is very well suited to hosting a podcast, 0:01:41.556 --> 0:01:49.396 maybe a little bit better than I am tally. Thank 0:01:49.436 --> 0:01:52.516 you so much for being here, and especially in this 0:01:52.596 --> 0:01:55.836 kind of exciting but also a little nervous making week 0:01:56.316 --> 0:02:00.076 when Joe Biden has been declared quote unquote president by 0:02:00.076 --> 0:02:02.236 the networks and the current occupant of the White House 0:02:02.276 --> 0:02:05.716 has not yet acknowledged it. I want to begin by 0:02:05.756 --> 0:02:10.036 asking about your own race that you're in, mesh Gen, 0:02:10.236 --> 0:02:14.076 and that's a raise for District Attorney of New York County, 0:02:14.436 --> 0:02:18.876 which is Manhattan. Why are you running for District Attorney 0:02:19.156 --> 0:02:22.236 of Manhattan now, Well, first, let me just say thank 0:02:22.276 --> 0:02:24.876 you so much for having me here and having me during, 0:02:25.236 --> 0:02:29.196 as you say, a celebratory week and also a time 0:02:29.236 --> 0:02:32.876 for some continued nail biting while we are focused on 0:02:33.116 --> 0:02:36.436 the national election and what it means for our country. 0:02:36.756 --> 0:02:39.876 I have been deeply engaged in this campaign for Manhattan 0:02:39.876 --> 0:02:42.796 District Attorney. And it's interesting, you know, I really turned 0:02:42.836 --> 0:02:46.836 to local prosecution after really having grown up in the 0:02:46.876 --> 0:02:51.556 federal criminal justice system after Trump was elected and I 0:02:51.636 --> 0:02:54.436 felt that I had to leave the Justice Department, where 0:02:54.476 --> 0:02:57.996 I had spent pretty much the entire Obama administration, working 0:02:58.396 --> 0:03:01.116 first for Eric Holder in his run office at the 0:03:01.156 --> 0:03:04.036 policy level, as his counsel and then on the ground 0:03:04.196 --> 0:03:08.276 as a federal prosecutor in the Eastern District of New York. 0:03:08.836 --> 0:03:14.036 And alongside the conversation that we've been having, particularly this summer, 0:03:14.196 --> 0:03:17.396 about the flaws inside the criminal justice system, there's been 0:03:17.436 --> 0:03:23.756 this incredibly interesting movement to reform local prosecution from within. 0:03:24.356 --> 0:03:27.636 And that's really at the heart of what I have 0:03:27.756 --> 0:03:29.436 been trying to do in the last couple of years, 0:03:29.436 --> 0:03:32.876 where I was working with local prosecutors in the Brooklyn 0:03:32.876 --> 0:03:36.556 District Attorney's office as a general council and really what 0:03:36.676 --> 0:03:39.796 I want to bring to Manhattan tally, given that we've 0:03:39.836 --> 0:03:42.436 just come through an election, some listeners, especially those who 0:03:42.476 --> 0:03:44.956 don't live in your jurisdiction, might be asking, wait, why 0:03:44.996 --> 0:03:47.916 are you running now? When is your election right? No 0:03:48.076 --> 0:03:50.836 rest for the weary, no time to turn to the 0:03:50.876 --> 0:03:53.996 next cycle in New York. So my election is in 0:03:54.196 --> 0:03:56.836 June of twenty twenty one. It's in the third week 0:03:56.836 --> 0:04:00.716 of June because the determinative election historically for District Attorney 0:04:00.756 --> 0:04:03.836 has been the Democratic Primary, which happens in the summer 0:04:03.876 --> 0:04:07.796 in New York. Reforming the criminal justice system is turning 0:04:07.796 --> 0:04:10.716 out to be hard, whether you do it from the 0:04:10.756 --> 0:04:13.156 top from the Attorney general's office, whether you do it 0:04:13.196 --> 0:04:15.436 as a federal prosecutor, or whether you do it within 0:04:15.516 --> 0:04:18.796 a local state prosecutor's office, as you've been doing in 0:04:18.796 --> 0:04:22.236 the Brooklyn District Attorney's office. What are some of the 0:04:22.236 --> 0:04:24.476 biggest challenges you see, What are some of the things 0:04:24.556 --> 0:04:26.996 that make it so hard, because you know, to an outsider, 0:04:27.036 --> 0:04:28.996 you might sort of think, well, we have all of 0:04:29.036 --> 0:04:33.516 these policies that systematically give a lot of power to prosecutors, 0:04:33.556 --> 0:04:36.436 and so all we really need to do is choose 0:04:36.516 --> 0:04:41.156 by appointment or election leaders who tell those prosecutors, Okay, 0:04:41.316 --> 0:04:43.636 you know, it's a new system, a new game. We 0:04:43.796 --> 0:04:45.836 still have the same discretion, but now we want you 0:04:45.916 --> 0:04:48.716 to exercise it for the good, not to maximize sentences, 0:04:48.836 --> 0:04:52.076 but to have an opportunity to send potential offenders into 0:04:52.556 --> 0:04:55.876 alternate treatment programs or just don't seek such high sentences 0:04:55.876 --> 0:04:58.196 for minor drug offenses. And you think it would be 0:04:58.236 --> 0:05:00.636 over I mean, it doesn't seem on the surface like 0:05:00.756 --> 0:05:02.836 the hardest part of the policy ever would be anything 0:05:02.836 --> 0:05:05.196 other than just getting the right people in there. Well, 0:05:05.316 --> 0:05:07.476 so you do make it sound so easy, No, And 0:05:07.516 --> 0:05:09.076 of course, you know, at a high level of general. 0:05:09.556 --> 0:05:11.996 That is the agenda. How can we use this power, 0:05:12.116 --> 0:05:15.756 which is really just an unbelievable power. The district attorney 0:05:15.796 --> 0:05:18.956 does not answer to anybody but the voters. How do 0:05:19.036 --> 0:05:22.076 we use that power to decide what cases to bring 0:05:22.116 --> 0:05:24.436 in what cases not to bring. I mean, that is 0:05:24.436 --> 0:05:25.716 at the heart of what it means to be a 0:05:25.716 --> 0:05:30.916 good prosecutor, and reform is about resetting that agenda. What 0:05:31.076 --> 0:05:35.396 has been challenging is that it's not just about correcting 0:05:35.476 --> 0:05:38.316 the excesses of the criminal justice tem pulling back from 0:05:38.356 --> 0:05:42.396 the cases that have harmed rather than helped communities that 0:05:42.436 --> 0:05:48.436 have perpetuated injustices, that have perpetuated racial disparities, exacerbated them, 0:05:48.716 --> 0:05:52.316 that have criminalized poverty. There's all of that work, but 0:05:52.436 --> 0:05:55.276 also then deciding and this is where I think gets 0:05:55.356 --> 0:05:57.276 less attention, and it is just as important, and it 0:05:57.396 --> 0:06:00.836 certainly as important to me, what are the cases that 0:06:00.836 --> 0:06:04.596 we have not been bringing that really are necessary or 0:06:04.676 --> 0:06:07.716 at the core of our mission to deliver on public safety, 0:06:07.756 --> 0:06:11.916 particularly for the most vulnerable people. And I think that 0:06:11.996 --> 0:06:14.796 this is really the next chapter of criminal justice reform 0:06:15.316 --> 0:06:18.636 is balancing out the places where we are shrinking and 0:06:18.676 --> 0:06:21.356 pulling back with the places where we need to be 0:06:21.716 --> 0:06:23.996 more aggressive and think about the folks that we have 0:06:24.116 --> 0:06:27.036 left behind. And so, you know, when I think about 0:06:27.676 --> 0:06:30.556 what are the things that have just not happened, you know, 0:06:30.716 --> 0:06:35.196 across the country and in particular offices, with the level 0:06:35.196 --> 0:06:37.276 of commitment that I think we need to make, I'm 0:06:37.316 --> 0:06:41.116 thinking about gun violence and thinking about crimes against women 0:06:41.476 --> 0:06:44.596 across the board haven't been taken seriously enough, and we 0:06:44.636 --> 0:06:47.796 really just haven't moved the needle on the occurrence of 0:06:47.836 --> 0:06:51.516 those crimes, accountability for those crimes. And then of course 0:06:51.636 --> 0:06:56.756 some crimes around financial fraud, tax fraud, what collar prosecutions, 0:06:57.036 --> 0:06:59.636 the cases that are really have the effect of taking 0:06:59.836 --> 0:07:03.756 money out of the pockets of New Yorkers. Tolly, let 0:07:03.796 --> 0:07:05.796 me ask a little more about areas where you actually 0:07:05.836 --> 0:07:08.996 think we need more prosecution, because one of the story 0:07:09.316 --> 0:07:13.556 that's been a recurrent theme in thinking about criminal justice reforms, 0:07:13.556 --> 0:07:16.036 certainly since I've been reading about it, is the theme 0:07:16.076 --> 0:07:19.636 of unintended consequences. You know, we have a very good 0:07:19.716 --> 0:07:23.676 aspiration to try to, let's say, make streets safer in 0:07:23.716 --> 0:07:26.836 poor neighborhoods, so we turned to broken windows policing, and 0:07:26.876 --> 0:07:30.556 then we end up even unintentionally sweeping up lots of 0:07:30.596 --> 0:07:33.996 young people, especially young black men, who have not actually 0:07:34.036 --> 0:07:37.196 committed any substantial crimes and then are labeled as criminals. Et. 0:07:38.236 --> 0:07:41.436 Domestic violence protection is another area where, with the best 0:07:41.476 --> 0:07:45.956 of intentions, they are all kinds of mandatory arrest provisions 0:07:45.996 --> 0:07:49.796 and mandatory prosecution provisions even in states and localities across 0:07:49.836 --> 0:07:53.116 the country, and sometimes those work well, other times they 0:07:53.156 --> 0:07:57.236 seem to backfire. How does one avoid the phenomenon that 0:07:57.276 --> 0:07:59.276 we also see at the national scale. You know, remember 0:07:59.316 --> 0:08:01.956 it was progressives who put the crime bill into place 0:08:01.956 --> 0:08:03.636 that Joe Biden had to back away from in the 0:08:03.716 --> 0:08:07.636 last election, and lots and lots of progressives, including African 0:08:07.676 --> 0:08:11.116 American progressives, according to A James Former Junior's terrific book 0:08:11.156 --> 0:08:15.396 on this, actually supported that crime bill at the time. 0:08:15.436 --> 0:08:20.996 Again unintended consequences. It's an important question, Noah, because I 0:08:21.036 --> 0:08:25.196 think first it reminds us to come at this with 0:08:25.316 --> 0:08:28.476 a kind of humility that not everything that we try. 0:08:28.516 --> 0:08:30.316 The work of reform is hard because some of the 0:08:30.396 --> 0:08:32.596 changes that we make may in fact not have the 0:08:32.596 --> 0:08:34.676 effects that we want them to have. But I think 0:08:34.716 --> 0:08:39.396 it also demands data and a stepping back and a 0:08:39.516 --> 0:08:41.916 constant measuring of what we are doing. So I'll give 0:08:41.916 --> 0:08:43.796 you an interesting example. You know, one of the first 0:08:43.916 --> 0:08:47.956 studies inside a DA's office to measure racial disparities was 0:08:48.076 --> 0:08:51.156 done in I believe it was in Milwaukee, in John 0:08:51.236 --> 0:08:55.356 Chisholm's office, and he wanted to measure whether there was 0:08:55.476 --> 0:08:58.636 racial disparity and charging right if the race of the 0:08:58.716 --> 0:09:01.236 defendant was having an effect, and he was charging people 0:09:01.236 --> 0:09:04.076 of color differently when it came to certain crimes and 0:09:04.196 --> 0:09:09.076 overcharging them. And he learned something in response to that question. 0:09:09.436 --> 0:09:12.876 But he also learned that when the victims of crime 0:09:13.156 --> 0:09:17.436 were African American, and particularly for property crimes, so someone 0:09:17.476 --> 0:09:20.716 broke into your house and stole your TV, he was undercharging. 0:09:20.996 --> 0:09:23.716 The office was undercharging those cases. It was not taking 0:09:24.076 --> 0:09:28.436 that harm against that community as seriously. And you know, 0:09:28.436 --> 0:09:31.636 so talk about unintended consequences and why it's so important 0:09:31.636 --> 0:09:34.596 to put a spotlight on what you are doing, to 0:09:34.636 --> 0:09:37.996 constantly check yourself, not just check your intentions, but check 0:09:38.036 --> 0:09:40.516 your output. I think you have to have the courage 0:09:40.556 --> 0:09:42.956 to do that and to course correct. I wanted to 0:09:42.996 --> 0:09:47.596 ask you about your own path to coming to this run. 0:09:48.196 --> 0:09:51.276 You clerked for Merrick Garland on the DC Circuit and 0:09:51.356 --> 0:09:53.876 incredible judge. You then went on to be nominated to 0:09:53.876 --> 0:09:56.516 the Supreme Court, even though the Senate unfortunately did not 0:09:56.516 --> 0:09:59.116 give him an opportunity to be confirmed. Then you clerked 0:09:59.156 --> 0:10:01.836 for Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, not for one but for 0:10:01.956 --> 0:10:04.916 two terms. You worked in the Obama administration, as you said, 0:10:04.916 --> 0:10:07.236 directly with Eric Holder at the Attorney General. Then you 0:10:07.236 --> 0:10:10.076 were aligned prosecutor, which I guess was a bit away 0:10:10.076 --> 0:10:12.996 from the absolute centers of power because you were putting 0:10:12.996 --> 0:10:15.716 people directly in prison. But what you're describing is really 0:10:16.596 --> 0:10:19.316 a career that at least began with a focus on 0:10:19.676 --> 0:10:22.916 the legal issues, the really hard legal issues, and then 0:10:23.076 --> 0:10:26.636 some of the biggest picture policy issues. And now you're 0:10:26.676 --> 0:10:29.716 going for a job that's really very much as in 0:10:29.756 --> 0:10:33.116 the weeze as a legal job can be, right. I mean, 0:10:33.156 --> 0:10:35.396 it's technically speaking, it's not even the entirety of New 0:10:35.476 --> 0:10:37.996 York City. This in jurisdiction, it's just one burrow. Now, 0:10:37.996 --> 0:10:40.756 it's a pretty darn big burrow, and it's an enormously 0:10:40.756 --> 0:10:44.556 important job, but it's a job about details and nitty gritty. 0:10:45.076 --> 0:10:47.556 What was the path that led you into that. I mean, 0:10:47.636 --> 0:10:49.836 of course, you understand the importance of criminal justice reform, 0:10:49.916 --> 0:10:52.756 but at a more personal level, why move to that 0:10:52.876 --> 0:10:56.076 nitty griddy level, you know, noelt just first say that 0:10:56.116 --> 0:10:59.716 when I hear you describe my career trajectory, I just 0:10:59.756 --> 0:11:03.796 think my offices got just less and less nice and 0:11:03.876 --> 0:11:07.356 shabbier over the course of my career. Maybe that's not 0:11:07.396 --> 0:11:09.316 the way that you're supposed to do it, but I 0:11:09.316 --> 0:11:11.916 will tell you that the work for me became more 0:11:12.036 --> 0:11:15.716 and more meaningful as I got closer and closer I 0:11:15.956 --> 0:11:20.356 felt to making decisions that it had an immediate and 0:11:20.396 --> 0:11:24.436 discernible impact on the well being of my neighbors, right 0:11:24.596 --> 0:11:28.076 of people in communities right here in New York, for 0:11:28.156 --> 0:11:32.516 whom these decisions were just incredibly consequential, And for me, 0:11:32.836 --> 0:11:35.956 I can say that I have never done more important 0:11:35.956 --> 0:11:39.916 work than that. I also, I've learned some things from 0:11:39.956 --> 0:11:43.116 being able to contrast it to the years that I 0:11:43.196 --> 0:11:46.796 spent in different parts of the American legal system and 0:11:47.316 --> 0:11:50.676 in federal courts, in federal prosecution and all the way 0:11:50.756 --> 0:11:53.916 up to the Supreme Court. You know, part of it 0:11:53.996 --> 0:11:58.796 is I think that we can never isolate these systems 0:11:58.876 --> 0:12:02.156 from one another, and we need to understand where the 0:12:02.236 --> 0:12:05.436 jurisdiction of one begins, where the jurisdiction of another end, 0:12:05.756 --> 0:12:09.476 where there's overlap, where we have to work together, for example, 0:12:09.516 --> 0:12:13.956 to take on something like gun trafficking, where sometimes local 0:12:13.956 --> 0:12:18.036 prosecution has to step up in the face of inadequacy 0:12:18.516 --> 0:12:23.876 or really dereliction of duty from the federal government or injustice. Right. So, 0:12:23.956 --> 0:12:25.676 you know, one of the things that I did as 0:12:25.676 --> 0:12:29.316 a local prosecutor in Brooklyn as we sued Ice because 0:12:29.676 --> 0:12:33.996 we thought that during the Trump administration isis policy of 0:12:34.076 --> 0:12:38.716 arresting non citizens in and around courthouses was unjust and 0:12:39.156 --> 0:12:44.916 interfering with our ability to deliver on safety for vulnerable people, 0:12:44.996 --> 0:12:47.956 because we found, particularly that women who were not citizens, 0:12:48.236 --> 0:12:52.036 who are victims of domestic violence had basically stopped reporting 0:12:52.116 --> 0:12:55.756 what was happening to them because they were worried that 0:12:56.196 --> 0:13:00.396 by entering into even the local criminal justice system, they 0:13:00.396 --> 0:13:04.156 would trigger the deportation of themselves, of someone that mattered 0:13:04.156 --> 0:13:06.516 to them, maybe even of the defendant who was the 0:13:06.556 --> 0:13:09.956 father of their children. And I think to be able 0:13:09.996 --> 0:13:12.516 to see what you're supposed to do in the grand 0:13:12.516 --> 0:13:15.836 scheme of things, it's important, right, So I lean on 0:13:15.876 --> 0:13:18.676 my federal years for that. The other thing is the 0:13:18.756 --> 0:13:22.356 responsibility that federal prosecutors have is very different from the 0:13:22.356 --> 0:13:27.716 responsibility that local prosecutors have. And I was humbled when 0:13:27.716 --> 0:13:30.196 I got to the Brooklyn DA's office to see what 0:13:30.236 --> 0:13:33.196 it's like to be on the front line, to really 0:13:33.276 --> 0:13:37.716 be the guaranteur of people's safety. That was not true 0:13:37.956 --> 0:13:41.996 in any of the other things that I did. Tally. 0:13:42.196 --> 0:13:45.156 You were a big supporter of Joe Biden Kamala Harris 0:13:45.836 --> 0:13:48.556 during the campaign, and I often saw your Instagram posts 0:13:48.596 --> 0:13:53.076 of you doing various pro Biden Harris things. What should 0:13:53.116 --> 0:13:56.836 be their criminal justice reform picture, what needs to happen 0:13:56.876 --> 0:14:00.636 at the Department of Justice, which has really been at 0:14:00.676 --> 0:14:04.036 least in my view, in a very lousy, parlous state 0:14:04.116 --> 0:14:06.716 over the last four years. Yes, and a place that 0:14:06.956 --> 0:14:11.156 I really love and been very saddened to see the 0:14:11.196 --> 0:14:13.516 burdens on the department and what has happened to it 0:14:13.556 --> 0:14:16.916 over time. So No, as you know, in the criminal 0:14:16.956 --> 0:14:20.556 justice system, only a small part of the people who 0:14:20.596 --> 0:14:22.876 pass through the criminal justice system are in the federal 0:14:22.916 --> 0:14:25.596 criminal justice system, something like ten percent of the two 0:14:25.676 --> 0:14:28.396 point two million people who are in prison or jail 0:14:28.436 --> 0:14:31.956 on any given day are federal prisoners. But I think 0:14:31.956 --> 0:14:36.116 that there is a lot that Biden and Harris can 0:14:36.196 --> 0:14:41.116 and will do to forward a criminal justice reform agenda, 0:14:41.316 --> 0:14:45.876 one that pushes forward on fairness and on safety at 0:14:45.916 --> 0:14:48.396 the federal and at the local level. So I think 0:14:48.836 --> 0:14:52.516 the obvious starting point is policing. You know. Some of that, 0:14:52.596 --> 0:14:54.756 I guess will depend on what happens in the Senate 0:14:54.876 --> 0:14:58.596 and what the prospects of getting certain kinds of legislation 0:14:58.716 --> 0:15:03.476 through are. But certainly the chances have improved for important 0:15:03.476 --> 0:15:09.436 and transformational legislation to be passed around policing, legislation that 0:15:09.676 --> 0:15:14.436 would address some things like police misconduct through a national registry. 0:15:14.956 --> 0:15:17.756 I've been an advocate for a long time of having 0:15:17.796 --> 0:15:23.076 more transparency around information that goes to the credibility of 0:15:23.156 --> 0:15:27.516 police officers, whether that's a collective local registry or a 0:15:27.516 --> 0:15:30.596 regional registry, or I think what's on the table is 0:15:30.596 --> 0:15:34.156 a national registry. At the federal level. I think that 0:15:34.316 --> 0:15:38.796 there are some particular practices that have been quite controversial. 0:15:38.796 --> 0:15:41.556 They could be addressed, like whether no knock warrants should 0:15:41.596 --> 0:15:45.796 be severely limited in their use or eliminated, the kind 0:15:45.796 --> 0:15:49.516 of warrant that was at issue in the Brianna Taylor case, 0:15:49.876 --> 0:15:54.436 for example. Then, aside from legislation on policing, you asked 0:15:54.436 --> 0:15:57.836 about the Justice Department. The resurrection of the rebuilding of 0:15:57.876 --> 0:16:01.116 the Civil Rights Division at the Justice Department is I 0:16:01.236 --> 0:16:03.916 assume going to be on the day one agenda and 0:16:04.036 --> 0:16:08.476 should be and an incredibly important power that that part 0:16:08.516 --> 0:16:10.876 of the Justice Department has. As you know, Noah has 0:16:10.916 --> 0:16:15.636 been just lying dormant. The Trump administration has objected ideologically 0:16:15.676 --> 0:16:19.116 to bringing pattern and practice investigations, and those are really 0:16:19.156 --> 0:16:23.916 important as a way for the FEDS to go into 0:16:24.236 --> 0:16:29.516 local police departments and ultimately work cooperatively with them with 0:16:29.596 --> 0:16:33.156 communities to make systemic change right beyond what you can 0:16:33.236 --> 0:16:36.636 make in a particular case where you're searching for accountability. 0:16:37.236 --> 0:16:40.716 You know, I'm excited to see an infusion of energy 0:16:40.716 --> 0:16:43.676 and talent you back into that work. And of course, 0:16:43.836 --> 0:16:45.756 you know, I could go on, but I think policing 0:16:45.836 --> 0:16:48.716 is a pretty good place to start. We'll be right back. 0:16:58.996 --> 0:17:01.236 You came to the United States as a really little 0:17:01.316 --> 0:17:04.156 kid in nineteen seventy nine with your parents in the 0:17:04.196 --> 0:17:07.756 midst of the Iranian Revolution, and you were immigrants, and 0:17:07.756 --> 0:17:11.956 I suppose you were also refuge. How did that experience 0:17:12.076 --> 0:17:16.356 or set of experiences lead you to working in law particularly? 0:17:17.556 --> 0:17:20.996 I think for me that was the start of everything. So, Noah, 0:17:21.076 --> 0:17:22.876 as you said, I came here as a little kid. 0:17:22.916 --> 0:17:26.436 It was actually on Christmas Eve of nineteen seventy nine. 0:17:26.916 --> 0:17:29.476 And you know, now I can say something that I 0:17:29.516 --> 0:17:32.796 think I was quite nervous about saying over the course 0:17:32.796 --> 0:17:36.156 of many years, which is that my mother and brother 0:17:36.196 --> 0:17:40.356 and I arrived here with fake tourist visas likely in 0:17:40.396 --> 0:17:44.916 our hands, wanting to make a claim for asylum, and 0:17:44.996 --> 0:17:48.436 not even really knowing how to do that, and we 0:17:48.436 --> 0:17:52.236 were admitted into the country and given the opportunity, with 0:17:52.316 --> 0:17:55.236 the help of pro bono council, to make that claim, 0:17:55.476 --> 0:18:00.156 and thus began ten years of immigration proceedings. You know, 0:18:00.196 --> 0:18:02.636 my parents were schlepping me to the i S Office 0:18:02.676 --> 0:18:05.276 in Newark from time to time to have some kind 0:18:05.316 --> 0:18:12.276 of incomprehensible examination or hearing, where I basically understood that 0:18:12.316 --> 0:18:14.636 what was at stake was whether we would be allowed 0:18:14.716 --> 0:18:18.396 to continue our lives in this country, even though I 0:18:18.516 --> 0:18:22.276 also fundamentally had no idea what was going on. And 0:18:22.356 --> 0:18:26.076 all of that uncertainty only ended in the late eighties 0:18:26.076 --> 0:18:29.836 when President Reagan did a wide scale amnesty for millions 0:18:29.836 --> 0:18:32.276 of people, you know, to just end all of their 0:18:32.396 --> 0:18:34.476 legal claims and allow us to get onto a path 0:18:34.556 --> 0:18:38.196 for citizenship, which is what we did. And so I 0:18:38.316 --> 0:18:41.556 tell you that story in some detail, Noah, because for 0:18:41.676 --> 0:18:45.716 me that's my starting point. I experienced the law as 0:18:46.036 --> 0:18:49.316 somewhat terrifying, mysterious, and I was on the other side 0:18:49.316 --> 0:18:51.556 of it. And maybe for all of us, we make 0:18:51.716 --> 0:18:55.596 choices that help us go from a feeling of being 0:18:55.636 --> 0:18:58.476 an outsider to a feeling of being an insider. And 0:18:58.556 --> 0:19:00.756 I think for me, although I could not have articulated 0:19:00.796 --> 0:19:05.196 it this way all along, I wanted to be in 0:19:05.916 --> 0:19:08.396 the role of the decision maker, having been the one 0:19:08.476 --> 0:19:11.276 being DiscId it upon in all of those years. I 0:19:11.316 --> 0:19:14.956 think that it also gives me a connection to the 0:19:15.036 --> 0:19:18.196 vulnerability of people who pass through the criminal justice system. 0:19:18.236 --> 0:19:22.076 That has always motivated me. And when I say that, 0:19:22.236 --> 0:19:24.956 I don't just mean the defendant, but I also mean, 0:19:24.996 --> 0:19:29.556 of course the victim, the witness. Really, all of these roles. 0:19:29.876 --> 0:19:33.276 You are meeting people at the most vulnerable moment of 0:19:33.316 --> 0:19:37.676 their lives often, and I think it's a great privilege 0:19:37.756 --> 0:19:42.396 to be there. With them and to try to do 0:19:42.556 --> 0:19:46.156 justice and a kind of restoration for them in that moment. 0:19:46.836 --> 0:19:50.236 It's an extraordinary story, Telly, And I've heard you speak 0:19:50.276 --> 0:19:52.156 about it a little bit before in terms of the 0:19:52.156 --> 0:19:54.636 emotional impact of it, But I actually there's a detail 0:19:54.676 --> 0:19:56.436 there that I actually don't think I've ever heard you 0:19:56.476 --> 0:20:00.516 mentioned before, which was the part about the visas. I mean, 0:20:00.516 --> 0:20:03.276 obviously you were tiny, but have you been able to 0:20:03.316 --> 0:20:05.436 reconstruct some of that story where the visas in order 0:20:05.476 --> 0:20:07.756 to get you on the plane in Iran you needed 0:20:07.756 --> 0:20:09.596 to have something that looked like a US or visa 0:20:09.716 --> 0:20:13.236 but would not withstand scrutiny when you landed in the 0:20:13.316 --> 0:20:14.836 United States, so that you had to land and then 0:20:14.876 --> 0:20:18.516 immediately put that away and say we are seeking asylum 0:20:18.596 --> 0:20:21.116 or were they visas that you were also trying to present, 0:20:21.636 --> 0:20:23.796 and if so, did that get you into the country? 0:20:23.836 --> 0:20:27.276 And then were you technically undocumented? I mean, these are 0:20:27.276 --> 0:20:29.516 fascinating questions at the Sorry sorry for having such a lawyer, 0:20:29.516 --> 0:20:32.316 but no, it's kind of astonishing. Yeah, and you know, 0:20:32.396 --> 0:20:35.636 no one's ever asked me those questions, which are technical 0:20:35.716 --> 0:20:40.596 questions but also really deep questions. And I'm still getting 0:20:40.636 --> 0:20:43.876 uncomfortable telling that story and an answer in questions like that. 0:20:43.996 --> 0:20:46.636 So no, I did get a copy of my file 0:20:47.476 --> 0:20:49.916 after I had already become a lawyer and was able 0:20:49.956 --> 0:20:53.636 to make sense of it. And I don't have a 0:20:53.716 --> 0:20:57.316 copy of the visas, but I do know that my 0:20:57.396 --> 0:21:00.436 mother paid an exorbitant amount of money for them where 0:21:00.436 --> 0:21:03.396 we bought them in Israel from a broker who was 0:21:03.436 --> 0:21:07.436 selling them with one way tickets. So that's already a 0:21:07.476 --> 0:21:10.796 red flag, right, a two week tot visa with a 0:21:10.836 --> 0:21:14.396 one way ticket sold by a third party to you, Right, 0:21:14.676 --> 0:21:18.676 I mean that's a pretty important fact, prosecutor. Right. I mean, 0:21:19.076 --> 0:21:21.556 these are hard things to talk about and our things 0:21:21.596 --> 0:21:25.236 to say. And what was most startling in that file, 0:21:25.356 --> 0:21:27.436 I will tell you, is a letter written to me 0:21:27.916 --> 0:21:30.636 when I was either four and a half or five 0:21:30.716 --> 0:21:32.676 years old, because I don't remember how soon I got it, 0:21:32.756 --> 0:21:35.396 you know, in the five it's addressed to me Farima 0:21:35.436 --> 0:21:40.596 far Haitian, and it says you are in possession of 0:21:40.636 --> 0:21:45.036 a fraudulent document that you have attempted to use to 0:21:45.356 --> 0:21:48.276 enter the United States unlawfully. Please report to the following 0:21:48.316 --> 0:21:50.796 address at the following time, you know, with all of 0:21:50.796 --> 0:21:53.796 your paperwork and so you're saying the first piece of 0:21:53.876 --> 0:21:55.916 communication you ever received from the US government was a 0:21:55.956 --> 0:21:59.756 target letter. Yes, yes, and it's very scary, it is, 0:21:59.796 --> 0:22:01.556 and I have it and I sort of look at 0:22:01.596 --> 0:22:04.356 it sometimes and it still makes me, you know, uncomfortable. 0:22:04.396 --> 0:22:06.076 And my parents got their own letters, but that one 0:22:06.196 --> 0:22:10.676 was just for me, right for a kid. And you 0:22:10.756 --> 0:22:15.556 know from your understanding of international law that of course 0:22:15.996 --> 0:22:19.556 refugees throughout time and around the world have used all 0:22:19.556 --> 0:22:21.316 sorts of means in order to be able to get 0:22:21.356 --> 0:22:23.916 to a safe place to make their claim for asylum. 0:22:24.396 --> 0:22:27.676 And a wrinkle in our case is that my very 0:22:27.716 --> 0:22:30.836 young mother with two very young kids didn't know the 0:22:30.916 --> 0:22:34.316 magic words to say at the airport, even though I 0:22:34.356 --> 0:22:38.076 think she was trying to articulate. And it claimed that 0:22:38.116 --> 0:22:40.836 she had a credible fear of persecution in her homeland. 0:22:41.276 --> 0:22:45.756 And we were lucky to be inspected that night at 0:22:45.756 --> 0:22:50.196 the airport by a law enforcement officer who used his discretion. Well, 0:22:50.196 --> 0:22:51.876 now I'm just going to use technical words with you, 0:22:51.916 --> 0:22:55.996 because you invited me to to parole us into the country, 0:22:56.076 --> 0:22:58.556 so that means we had permission to enter, though no 0:22:58.756 --> 0:23:03.876 authorization to enter, a kind of reprieve right a safety 0:23:03.956 --> 0:23:09.236 valve that said, come in, collect yourselves. My father I 0:23:09.276 --> 0:23:11.116 was waiting for us on the other side of border control. 0:23:11.156 --> 0:23:13.196 He had come a few months ahead of us. This 0:23:13.276 --> 0:23:16.516 officer knew this, And you know, it's really a very 0:23:16.596 --> 0:23:19.396 moving detail to me, is that he would the other 0:23:19.516 --> 0:23:22.036 end just trying to figure out where's my family. Everybody 0:23:22.036 --> 0:23:24.596 else has gotten off of this flight and not them, 0:23:24.716 --> 0:23:27.036 And an I and S officer said to him. A 0:23:27.116 --> 0:23:30.396 second law enforcement officer said to him, don't worry, you'll 0:23:30.396 --> 0:23:35.076 see them. It's Christmas. And we came in and that 0:23:35.276 --> 0:23:39.556 small act was everything because it allowed us to figure 0:23:39.556 --> 0:23:42.316 out how to walk into a lawyer's office the day 0:23:42.356 --> 0:23:47.436