1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:24,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:24,436 --> 00:00:27,836 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:28,276 --> 00:00:33,916 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. We've just come through an extraordinary national 4 00:00:34,076 --> 00:00:38,196 Speaker 1: election and some of us are slowly beginning to think 5 00:00:38,276 --> 00:00:42,036 Speaker 1: about trying to catch our breaths. But today on the show, 6 00:00:42,156 --> 00:00:46,196 Speaker 1: we're going to talk to a woman who's just getting started. 7 00:00:46,796 --> 00:00:50,596 Speaker 1: Tali far Haiti and Weinstein is a candidate for District 8 00:00:50,596 --> 00:00:54,596 Speaker 1: Attorney of Manhattan, and that's a race which is just 9 00:00:54,956 --> 00:00:58,556 Speaker 1: starting to heat up. We wanted to speak to Tally 10 00:00:58,676 --> 00:01:02,516 Speaker 1: for two reasons. First, she's a fascinating example of a 11 00:01:02,596 --> 00:01:06,276 Speaker 1: person deciding to run for office for the first time 12 00:01:06,636 --> 00:01:10,156 Speaker 1: in the hopes of making change in the way of 13 00:01:10,196 --> 00:01:14,436 Speaker 1: this historic national election. And she's reflecting on some of 14 00:01:14,476 --> 00:01:19,436 Speaker 1: the hardest policy issues that face public officials today and 15 00:01:19,596 --> 00:01:23,396 Speaker 1: that will face the Biden Harris administration when it eventually 16 00:01:23,476 --> 00:01:28,156 Speaker 1: takes office. Second, Tally is also a colleague. As part 17 00:01:28,196 --> 00:01:33,876 Speaker 1: of her campaign, she's launched a podcast called Hearing Liked Background. 18 00:01:33,956 --> 00:01:37,436 Speaker 1: It's produced by Pushkin Industries, and as you'll hear in 19 00:01:37,436 --> 00:01:41,236 Speaker 1: a minute, Tally is very well suited to hosting a podcast, 20 00:01:41,556 --> 00:01:49,396 Speaker 1: maybe a little bit better than I am tally. Thank 21 00:01:49,436 --> 00:01:52,516 Speaker 1: you so much for being here, and especially in this 22 00:01:52,596 --> 00:01:55,836 Speaker 1: kind of exciting but also a little nervous making week 23 00:01:56,316 --> 00:02:00,076 Speaker 1: when Joe Biden has been declared quote unquote president by 24 00:02:00,076 --> 00:02:02,236 Speaker 1: the networks and the current occupant of the White House 25 00:02:02,276 --> 00:02:05,716 Speaker 1: has not yet acknowledged it. I want to begin by 26 00:02:05,756 --> 00:02:10,036 Speaker 1: asking about your own race that you're in, mesh Gen, 27 00:02:10,236 --> 00:02:14,076 Speaker 1: and that's a raise for District Attorney of New York County, 28 00:02:14,436 --> 00:02:18,876 Speaker 1: which is Manhattan. Why are you running for District Attorney 29 00:02:19,156 --> 00:02:22,236 Speaker 1: of Manhattan now, Well, first, let me just say thank 30 00:02:22,276 --> 00:02:24,876 Speaker 1: you so much for having me here and having me during, 31 00:02:25,236 --> 00:02:29,196 Speaker 1: as you say, a celebratory week and also a time 32 00:02:29,236 --> 00:02:32,876 Speaker 1: for some continued nail biting while we are focused on 33 00:02:33,116 --> 00:02:36,436 Speaker 1: the national election and what it means for our country. 34 00:02:36,756 --> 00:02:39,876 Speaker 1: I have been deeply engaged in this campaign for Manhattan 35 00:02:39,876 --> 00:02:42,796 Speaker 1: District Attorney. And it's interesting, you know, I really turned 36 00:02:42,836 --> 00:02:46,836 Speaker 1: to local prosecution after really having grown up in the 37 00:02:46,876 --> 00:02:51,556 Speaker 1: federal criminal justice system after Trump was elected and I 38 00:02:51,636 --> 00:02:54,436 Speaker 1: felt that I had to leave the Justice Department, where 39 00:02:54,476 --> 00:02:57,996 Speaker 1: I had spent pretty much the entire Obama administration, working 40 00:02:58,396 --> 00:03:01,116 Speaker 1: first for Eric Holder in his run office at the 41 00:03:01,156 --> 00:03:04,036 Speaker 1: policy level, as his counsel and then on the ground 42 00:03:04,196 --> 00:03:08,276 Speaker 1: as a federal prosecutor in the Eastern District of New York. 43 00:03:08,836 --> 00:03:14,036 Speaker 1: And alongside the conversation that we've been having, particularly this summer, 44 00:03:14,196 --> 00:03:17,396 Speaker 1: about the flaws inside the criminal justice system, there's been 45 00:03:17,436 --> 00:03:23,756 Speaker 1: this incredibly interesting movement to reform local prosecution from within. 46 00:03:24,356 --> 00:03:27,636 Speaker 1: And that's really at the heart of what I have 47 00:03:27,756 --> 00:03:29,436 Speaker 1: been trying to do in the last couple of years, 48 00:03:29,436 --> 00:03:32,876 Speaker 1: where I was working with local prosecutors in the Brooklyn 49 00:03:32,876 --> 00:03:36,556 Speaker 1: District Attorney's office as a general council and really what 50 00:03:36,676 --> 00:03:39,796 Speaker 1: I want to bring to Manhattan tally, given that we've 51 00:03:39,836 --> 00:03:42,436 Speaker 1: just come through an election, some listeners, especially those who 52 00:03:42,476 --> 00:03:44,956 Speaker 1: don't live in your jurisdiction, might be asking, wait, why 53 00:03:44,996 --> 00:03:47,916 Speaker 1: are you running now? When is your election right? No 54 00:03:48,076 --> 00:03:50,836 Speaker 1: rest for the weary, no time to turn to the 55 00:03:50,876 --> 00:03:53,996 Speaker 1: next cycle in New York. So my election is in 56 00:03:54,196 --> 00:03:56,836 Speaker 1: June of twenty twenty one. It's in the third week 57 00:03:56,836 --> 00:04:00,716 Speaker 1: of June because the determinative election historically for District Attorney 58 00:04:00,756 --> 00:04:03,836 Speaker 1: has been the Democratic Primary, which happens in the summer 59 00:04:03,876 --> 00:04:07,796 Speaker 1: in New York. Reforming the criminal justice system is turning 60 00:04:07,796 --> 00:04:10,716 Speaker 1: out to be hard, whether you do it from the 61 00:04:10,756 --> 00:04:13,156 Speaker 1: top from the Attorney general's office, whether you do it 62 00:04:13,196 --> 00:04:15,436 Speaker 1: as a federal prosecutor, or whether you do it within 63 00:04:15,516 --> 00:04:18,796 Speaker 1: a local state prosecutor's office, as you've been doing in 64 00:04:18,796 --> 00:04:22,236 Speaker 1: the Brooklyn District Attorney's office. What are some of the 65 00:04:22,236 --> 00:04:24,476 Speaker 1: biggest challenges you see, What are some of the things 66 00:04:24,556 --> 00:04:26,996 Speaker 1: that make it so hard, because you know, to an outsider, 67 00:04:27,036 --> 00:04:28,996 Speaker 1: you might sort of think, well, we have all of 68 00:04:29,036 --> 00:04:33,516 Speaker 1: these policies that systematically give a lot of power to prosecutors, 69 00:04:33,556 --> 00:04:36,436 Speaker 1: and so all we really need to do is choose 70 00:04:36,516 --> 00:04:41,156 Speaker 1: by appointment or election leaders who tell those prosecutors, Okay, 71 00:04:41,316 --> 00:04:43,636 Speaker 1: you know, it's a new system, a new game. We 72 00:04:43,796 --> 00:04:45,836 Speaker 1: still have the same discretion, but now we want you 73 00:04:45,916 --> 00:04:48,716 Speaker 1: to exercise it for the good, not to maximize sentences, 74 00:04:48,836 --> 00:04:52,076 Speaker 1: but to have an opportunity to send potential offenders into 75 00:04:52,556 --> 00:04:55,876 Speaker 1: alternate treatment programs or just don't seek such high sentences 76 00:04:55,876 --> 00:04:58,196 Speaker 1: for minor drug offenses. And you think it would be 77 00:04:58,236 --> 00:05:00,636 Speaker 1: over I mean, it doesn't seem on the surface like 78 00:05:00,756 --> 00:05:02,836 Speaker 1: the hardest part of the policy ever would be anything 79 00:05:02,836 --> 00:05:05,196 Speaker 1: other than just getting the right people in there. Well, 80 00:05:05,316 --> 00:05:07,476 Speaker 1: so you do make it sound so easy, No, And 81 00:05:07,516 --> 00:05:09,076 Speaker 1: of course, you know, at a high level of general. 82 00:05:09,556 --> 00:05:11,996 Speaker 1: That is the agenda. How can we use this power, 83 00:05:12,116 --> 00:05:15,756 Speaker 1: which is really just an unbelievable power. The district attorney 84 00:05:15,796 --> 00:05:18,956 Speaker 1: does not answer to anybody but the voters. How do 85 00:05:19,036 --> 00:05:22,076 Speaker 1: we use that power to decide what cases to bring 86 00:05:22,116 --> 00:05:24,436 Speaker 1: in what cases not to bring. I mean, that is 87 00:05:24,436 --> 00:05:25,716 Speaker 1: at the heart of what it means to be a 88 00:05:25,716 --> 00:05:30,916 Speaker 1: good prosecutor, and reform is about resetting that agenda. What 89 00:05:31,076 --> 00:05:35,396 Speaker 1: has been challenging is that it's not just about correcting 90 00:05:35,476 --> 00:05:38,316 Speaker 1: the excesses of the criminal justice tem pulling back from 91 00:05:38,356 --> 00:05:42,396 Speaker 1: the cases that have harmed rather than helped communities that 92 00:05:42,436 --> 00:05:48,436 Speaker 1: have perpetuated injustices, that have perpetuated racial disparities, exacerbated them, 93 00:05:48,716 --> 00:05:52,316 Speaker 1: that have criminalized poverty. There's all of that work, but 94 00:05:52,436 --> 00:05:55,276 Speaker 1: also then deciding and this is where I think gets 95 00:05:55,356 --> 00:05:57,276 Speaker 1: less attention, and it is just as important, and it 96 00:05:57,396 --> 00:06:00,836 Speaker 1: certainly as important to me, what are the cases that 97 00:06:00,836 --> 00:06:04,596 Speaker 1: we have not been bringing that really are necessary or 98 00:06:04,676 --> 00:06:07,716 Speaker 1: at the core of our mission to deliver on public safety, 99 00:06:07,756 --> 00:06:11,916 Speaker 1: particularly for the most vulnerable people. And I think that 100 00:06:11,996 --> 00:06:14,796 Speaker 1: this is really the next chapter of criminal justice reform 101 00:06:15,316 --> 00:06:18,636 Speaker 1: is balancing out the places where we are shrinking and 102 00:06:18,676 --> 00:06:21,356 Speaker 1: pulling back with the places where we need to be 103 00:06:21,716 --> 00:06:23,996 Speaker 1: more aggressive and think about the folks that we have 104 00:06:24,116 --> 00:06:27,036 Speaker 1: left behind. And so, you know, when I think about 105 00:06:27,676 --> 00:06:30,556 Speaker 1: what are the things that have just not happened, you know, 106 00:06:30,716 --> 00:06:35,196 Speaker 1: across the country and in particular offices, with the level 107 00:06:35,196 --> 00:06:37,276 Speaker 1: of commitment that I think we need to make, I'm 108 00:06:37,316 --> 00:06:41,116 Speaker 1: thinking about gun violence and thinking about crimes against women 109 00:06:41,476 --> 00:06:44,596 Speaker 1: across the board haven't been taken seriously enough, and we 110 00:06:44,636 --> 00:06:47,796 Speaker 1: really just haven't moved the needle on the occurrence of 111 00:06:47,836 --> 00:06:51,516 Speaker 1: those crimes, accountability for those crimes. And then of course 112 00:06:51,636 --> 00:06:56,756 Speaker 1: some crimes around financial fraud, tax fraud, what collar prosecutions, 113 00:06:57,036 --> 00:06:59,636 Speaker 1: the cases that are really have the effect of taking 114 00:06:59,836 --> 00:07:03,756 Speaker 1: money out of the pockets of New Yorkers. Tolly, let 115 00:07:03,796 --> 00:07:05,796 Speaker 1: me ask a little more about areas where you actually 116 00:07:05,836 --> 00:07:08,996 Speaker 1: think we need more prosecution, because one of the story 117 00:07:09,316 --> 00:07:13,556 Speaker 1: that's been a recurrent theme in thinking about criminal justice reforms, 118 00:07:13,556 --> 00:07:16,036 Speaker 1: certainly since I've been reading about it, is the theme 119 00:07:16,076 --> 00:07:19,636 Speaker 1: of unintended consequences. You know, we have a very good 120 00:07:19,716 --> 00:07:23,676 Speaker 1: aspiration to try to, let's say, make streets safer in 121 00:07:23,716 --> 00:07:26,836 Speaker 1: poor neighborhoods, so we turned to broken windows policing, and 122 00:07:26,876 --> 00:07:30,556 Speaker 1: then we end up even unintentionally sweeping up lots of 123 00:07:30,596 --> 00:07:33,996 Speaker 1: young people, especially young black men, who have not actually 124 00:07:34,036 --> 00:07:37,196 Speaker 1: committed any substantial crimes and then are labeled as criminals. Et. 125 00:07:38,236 --> 00:07:41,436 Speaker 1: Domestic violence protection is another area where, with the best 126 00:07:41,476 --> 00:07:45,956 Speaker 1: of intentions, they are all kinds of mandatory arrest provisions 127 00:07:45,996 --> 00:07:49,796 Speaker 1: and mandatory prosecution provisions even in states and localities across 128 00:07:49,836 --> 00:07:53,116 Speaker 1: the country, and sometimes those work well, other times they 129 00:07:53,156 --> 00:07:57,236 Speaker 1: seem to backfire. How does one avoid the phenomenon that 130 00:07:57,276 --> 00:07:59,276 Speaker 1: we also see at the national scale. You know, remember 131 00:07:59,316 --> 00:08:01,956 Speaker 1: it was progressives who put the crime bill into place 132 00:08:01,956 --> 00:08:03,636 Speaker 1: that Joe Biden had to back away from in the 133 00:08:03,716 --> 00:08:07,636 Speaker 1: last election, and lots and lots of progressives, including African 134 00:08:07,676 --> 00:08:11,116 Speaker 1: American progressives, according to A James Former Junior's terrific book 135 00:08:11,156 --> 00:08:15,396 Speaker 1: on this, actually supported that crime bill at the time. 136 00:08:15,436 --> 00:08:20,996 Speaker 1: Again unintended consequences. It's an important question, Noah, because I 137 00:08:21,036 --> 00:08:25,196 Speaker 1: think first it reminds us to come at this with 138 00:08:25,316 --> 00:08:28,476 Speaker 1: a kind of humility that not everything that we try. 139 00:08:28,516 --> 00:08:30,316 Speaker 1: The work of reform is hard because some of the 140 00:08:30,396 --> 00:08:32,596 Speaker 1: changes that we make may in fact not have the 141 00:08:32,596 --> 00:08:34,676 Speaker 1: effects that we want them to have. But I think 142 00:08:34,716 --> 00:08:39,396 Speaker 1: it also demands data and a stepping back and a 143 00:08:39,516 --> 00:08:41,916 Speaker 1: constant measuring of what we are doing. So I'll give 144 00:08:41,916 --> 00:08:43,796 Speaker 1: you an interesting example. You know, one of the first 145 00:08:43,916 --> 00:08:47,956 Speaker 1: studies inside a DA's office to measure racial disparities was 146 00:08:48,076 --> 00:08:51,156 Speaker 1: done in I believe it was in Milwaukee, in John 147 00:08:51,236 --> 00:08:55,356 Speaker 1: Chisholm's office, and he wanted to measure whether there was 148 00:08:55,476 --> 00:08:58,636 Speaker 1: racial disparity and charging right if the race of the 149 00:08:58,716 --> 00:09:01,236 Speaker 1: defendant was having an effect, and he was charging people 150 00:09:01,236 --> 00:09:04,076 Speaker 1: of color differently when it came to certain crimes and 151 00:09:04,196 --> 00:09:09,076 Speaker 1: overcharging them. And he learned something in response to that question. 152 00:09:09,436 --> 00:09:12,876 Speaker 1: But he also learned that when the victims of crime 153 00:09:13,156 --> 00:09:17,436 Speaker 1: were African American, and particularly for property crimes, so someone 154 00:09:17,476 --> 00:09:20,716 Speaker 1: broke into your house and stole your TV, he was undercharging. 155 00:09:20,996 --> 00:09:23,716 Speaker 1: The office was undercharging those cases. It was not taking 156 00:09:24,076 --> 00:09:28,436 Speaker 1: that harm against that community as seriously. And you know, 157 00:09:28,436 --> 00:09:31,636 Speaker 1: so talk about unintended consequences and why it's so important 158 00:09:31,636 --> 00:09:34,596 Speaker 1: to put a spotlight on what you are doing, to 159 00:09:34,636 --> 00:09:37,996 Speaker 1: constantly check yourself, not just check your intentions, but check 160 00:09:38,036 --> 00:09:40,516 Speaker 1: your output. I think you have to have the courage 161 00:09:40,556 --> 00:09:42,956 Speaker 1: to do that and to course correct. I wanted to 162 00:09:42,996 --> 00:09:47,596 Speaker 1: ask you about your own path to coming to this run. 163 00:09:48,196 --> 00:09:51,276 Speaker 1: You clerked for Merrick Garland on the DC Circuit and 164 00:09:51,356 --> 00:09:53,876 Speaker 1: incredible judge. You then went on to be nominated to 165 00:09:53,876 --> 00:09:56,516 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, even though the Senate unfortunately did not 166 00:09:56,516 --> 00:09:59,116 Speaker 1: give him an opportunity to be confirmed. Then you clerked 167 00:09:59,156 --> 00:10:01,836 Speaker 1: for Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, not for one but for 168 00:10:01,956 --> 00:10:04,916 Speaker 1: two terms. You worked in the Obama administration, as you said, 169 00:10:04,916 --> 00:10:07,236 Speaker 1: directly with Eric Holder at the Attorney General. Then you 170 00:10:07,236 --> 00:10:10,076 Speaker 1: were aligned prosecutor, which I guess was a bit away 171 00:10:10,076 --> 00:10:12,996 Speaker 1: from the absolute centers of power because you were putting 172 00:10:12,996 --> 00:10:15,716 Speaker 1: people directly in prison. But what you're describing is really 173 00:10:16,596 --> 00:10:19,316 Speaker 1: a career that at least began with a focus on 174 00:10:19,676 --> 00:10:22,916 Speaker 1: the legal issues, the really hard legal issues, and then 175 00:10:23,076 --> 00:10:26,636 Speaker 1: some of the biggest picture policy issues. And now you're 176 00:10:26,676 --> 00:10:29,716 Speaker 1: going for a job that's really very much as in 177 00:10:29,756 --> 00:10:33,116 Speaker 1: the weeze as a legal job can be, right. I mean, 178 00:10:33,156 --> 00:10:35,396 Speaker 1: it's technically speaking, it's not even the entirety of New 179 00:10:35,476 --> 00:10:37,996 Speaker 1: York City. This in jurisdiction, it's just one burrow. Now, 180 00:10:37,996 --> 00:10:40,756 Speaker 1: it's a pretty darn big burrow, and it's an enormously 181 00:10:40,756 --> 00:10:44,556 Speaker 1: important job, but it's a job about details and nitty gritty. 182 00:10:45,076 --> 00:10:47,556 Speaker 1: What was the path that led you into that. I mean, 183 00:10:47,636 --> 00:10:49,836 Speaker 1: of course, you understand the importance of criminal justice reform, 184 00:10:49,916 --> 00:10:52,756 Speaker 1: but at a more personal level, why move to that 185 00:10:52,876 --> 00:10:56,076 Speaker 1: nitty griddy level, you know, noelt just first say that 186 00:10:56,116 --> 00:10:59,716 Speaker 1: when I hear you describe my career trajectory, I just 187 00:10:59,756 --> 00:11:03,796 Speaker 1: think my offices got just less and less nice and 188 00:11:03,876 --> 00:11:07,356 Speaker 1: shabbier over the course of my career. Maybe that's not 189 00:11:07,396 --> 00:11:09,316 Speaker 1: the way that you're supposed to do it, but I 190 00:11:09,316 --> 00:11:11,916 Speaker 1: will tell you that the work for me became more 191 00:11:12,036 --> 00:11:15,716 Speaker 1: and more meaningful as I got closer and closer I 192 00:11:15,956 --> 00:11:20,356 Speaker 1: felt to making decisions that it had an immediate and 193 00:11:20,396 --> 00:11:24,436 Speaker 1: discernible impact on the well being of my neighbors, right 194 00:11:24,596 --> 00:11:28,076 Speaker 1: of people in communities right here in New York, for 195 00:11:28,156 --> 00:11:32,516 Speaker 1: whom these decisions were just incredibly consequential, And for me, 196 00:11:32,836 --> 00:11:35,956 Speaker 1: I can say that I have never done more important 197 00:11:35,956 --> 00:11:39,916 Speaker 1: work than that. I also, I've learned some things from 198 00:11:39,956 --> 00:11:43,116 Speaker 1: being able to contrast it to the years that I 199 00:11:43,196 --> 00:11:46,796 Speaker 1: spent in different parts of the American legal system and 200 00:11:47,316 --> 00:11:50,676 Speaker 1: in federal courts, in federal prosecution and all the way 201 00:11:50,756 --> 00:11:53,916 Speaker 1: up to the Supreme Court. You know, part of it 202 00:11:53,996 --> 00:11:58,796 Speaker 1: is I think that we can never isolate these systems 203 00:11:58,876 --> 00:12:02,156 Speaker 1: from one another, and we need to understand where the 204 00:12:02,236 --> 00:12:05,436 Speaker 1: jurisdiction of one begins, where the jurisdiction of another end, 205 00:12:05,756 --> 00:12:09,476 Speaker 1: where there's overlap, where we have to work together, for example, 206 00:12:09,516 --> 00:12:13,956 Speaker 1: to take on something like gun trafficking, where sometimes local 207 00:12:13,956 --> 00:12:18,036 Speaker 1: prosecution has to step up in the face of inadequacy 208 00:12:18,516 --> 00:12:23,876 Speaker 1: or really dereliction of duty from the federal government or injustice. Right. So, 209 00:12:23,956 --> 00:12:25,676 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that I did as 210 00:12:25,676 --> 00:12:29,316 Speaker 1: a local prosecutor in Brooklyn as we sued Ice because 211 00:12:29,676 --> 00:12:33,996 Speaker 1: we thought that during the Trump administration isis policy of 212 00:12:34,076 --> 00:12:38,716 Speaker 1: arresting non citizens in and around courthouses was unjust and 213 00:12:39,156 --> 00:12:44,916 Speaker 1: interfering with our ability to deliver on safety for vulnerable people, 214 00:12:44,996 --> 00:12:47,956 Speaker 1: because we found, particularly that women who were not citizens, 215 00:12:48,236 --> 00:12:52,036 Speaker 1: who are victims of domestic violence had basically stopped reporting 216 00:12:52,116 --> 00:12:55,756 Speaker 1: what was happening to them because they were worried that 217 00:12:56,196 --> 00:13:00,396 Speaker 1: by entering into even the local criminal justice system, they 218 00:13:00,396 --> 00:13:04,156 Speaker 1: would trigger the deportation of themselves, of someone that mattered 219 00:13:04,156 --> 00:13:06,516 Speaker 1: to them, maybe even of the defendant who was the 220 00:13:06,556 --> 00:13:09,956 Speaker 1: father of their children. And I think to be able 221 00:13:09,996 --> 00:13:12,516 Speaker 1: to see what you're supposed to do in the grand 222 00:13:12,516 --> 00:13:15,836 Speaker 1: scheme of things, it's important, right, So I lean on 223 00:13:15,876 --> 00:13:18,676 Speaker 1: my federal years for that. The other thing is the 224 00:13:18,756 --> 00:13:22,356 Speaker 1: responsibility that federal prosecutors have is very different from the 225 00:13:22,356 --> 00:13:27,716 Speaker 1: responsibility that local prosecutors have. And I was humbled when 226 00:13:27,716 --> 00:13:30,196 Speaker 1: I got to the Brooklyn DA's office to see what 227 00:13:30,236 --> 00:13:33,196 Speaker 1: it's like to be on the front line, to really 228 00:13:33,276 --> 00:13:37,716 Speaker 1: be the guaranteur of people's safety. That was not true 229 00:13:37,956 --> 00:13:41,996 Speaker 1: in any of the other things that I did. Tally. 230 00:13:42,196 --> 00:13:45,156 Speaker 1: You were a big supporter of Joe Biden Kamala Harris 231 00:13:45,836 --> 00:13:48,556 Speaker 1: during the campaign, and I often saw your Instagram posts 232 00:13:48,596 --> 00:13:53,076 Speaker 1: of you doing various pro Biden Harris things. What should 233 00:13:53,116 --> 00:13:56,836 Speaker 1: be their criminal justice reform picture, what needs to happen 234 00:13:56,876 --> 00:14:00,636 Speaker 1: at the Department of Justice, which has really been at 235 00:14:00,676 --> 00:14:04,036 Speaker 1: least in my view, in a very lousy, parlous state 236 00:14:04,116 --> 00:14:06,716 Speaker 1: over the last four years. Yes, and a place that 237 00:14:06,956 --> 00:14:11,156 Speaker 1: I really love and been very saddened to see the 238 00:14:11,196 --> 00:14:13,516 Speaker 1: burdens on the department and what has happened to it 239 00:14:13,556 --> 00:14:16,916 Speaker 1: over time. So No, as you know, in the criminal 240 00:14:16,956 --> 00:14:20,556 Speaker 1: justice system, only a small part of the people who 241 00:14:20,596 --> 00:14:22,876 Speaker 1: pass through the criminal justice system are in the federal 242 00:14:22,916 --> 00:14:25,596 Speaker 1: criminal justice system, something like ten percent of the two 243 00:14:25,676 --> 00:14:28,396 Speaker 1: point two million people who are in prison or jail 244 00:14:28,436 --> 00:14:31,956 Speaker 1: on any given day are federal prisoners. But I think 245 00:14:31,956 --> 00:14:36,116 Speaker 1: that there is a lot that Biden and Harris can 246 00:14:36,196 --> 00:14:41,116 Speaker 1: and will do to forward a criminal justice reform agenda, 247 00:14:41,316 --> 00:14:45,876 Speaker 1: one that pushes forward on fairness and on safety at 248 00:14:45,916 --> 00:14:48,396 Speaker 1: the federal and at the local level. So I think 249 00:14:48,836 --> 00:14:52,516 Speaker 1: the obvious starting point is policing. You know. Some of that, 250 00:14:52,596 --> 00:14:54,756 Speaker 1: I guess will depend on what happens in the Senate 251 00:14:54,876 --> 00:14:58,596 Speaker 1: and what the prospects of getting certain kinds of legislation 252 00:14:58,716 --> 00:15:03,476 Speaker 1: through are. But certainly the chances have improved for important 253 00:15:03,476 --> 00:15:09,436 Speaker 1: and transformational legislation to be passed around policing, legislation that 254 00:15:09,676 --> 00:15:14,436 Speaker 1: would address some things like police misconduct through a national registry. 255 00:15:14,956 --> 00:15:17,756 Speaker 1: I've been an advocate for a long time of having 256 00:15:17,796 --> 00:15:23,076 Speaker 1: more transparency around information that goes to the credibility of 257 00:15:23,156 --> 00:15:27,516 Speaker 1: police officers, whether that's a collective local registry or a 258 00:15:27,516 --> 00:15:30,596 Speaker 1: regional registry, or I think what's on the table is 259 00:15:30,596 --> 00:15:34,156 Speaker 1: a national registry. At the federal level. I think that 260 00:15:34,316 --> 00:15:38,796 Speaker 1: there are some particular practices that have been quite controversial. 261 00:15:38,796 --> 00:15:41,556 Speaker 1: They could be addressed, like whether no knock warrants should 262 00:15:41,596 --> 00:15:45,796 Speaker 1: be severely limited in their use or eliminated, the kind 263 00:15:45,796 --> 00:15:49,516 Speaker 1: of warrant that was at issue in the Brianna Taylor case, 264 00:15:49,876 --> 00:15:54,436 Speaker 1: for example. Then, aside from legislation on policing, you asked 265 00:15:54,436 --> 00:15:57,836 Speaker 1: about the Justice Department. The resurrection of the rebuilding of 266 00:15:57,876 --> 00:16:01,116 Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Division at the Justice Department is I 267 00:16:01,236 --> 00:16:03,916 Speaker 1: assume going to be on the day one agenda and 268 00:16:04,036 --> 00:16:08,476 Speaker 1: should be and an incredibly important power that that part 269 00:16:08,516 --> 00:16:10,876 Speaker 1: of the Justice Department has. As you know, Noah has 270 00:16:10,916 --> 00:16:15,636 Speaker 1: been just lying dormant. The Trump administration has objected ideologically 271 00:16:15,676 --> 00:16:19,116 Speaker 1: to bringing pattern and practice investigations, and those are really 272 00:16:19,156 --> 00:16:23,916 Speaker 1: important as a way for the FEDS to go into 273 00:16:24,236 --> 00:16:29,516 Speaker 1: local police departments and ultimately work cooperatively with them with 274 00:16:29,596 --> 00:16:33,156 Speaker 1: communities to make systemic change right beyond what you can 275 00:16:33,236 --> 00:16:36,636 Speaker 1: make in a particular case where you're searching for accountability. 276 00:16:37,236 --> 00:16:40,716 Speaker 1: You know, I'm excited to see an infusion of energy 277 00:16:40,716 --> 00:16:43,676 Speaker 1: and talent you back into that work. And of course, 278 00:16:43,836 --> 00:16:45,756 Speaker 1: you know, I could go on, but I think policing 279 00:16:45,836 --> 00:16:48,716 Speaker 1: is a pretty good place to start. We'll be right back. 280 00:16:58,996 --> 00:17:01,236 Speaker 1: You came to the United States as a really little 281 00:17:01,316 --> 00:17:04,156 Speaker 1: kid in nineteen seventy nine with your parents in the 282 00:17:04,196 --> 00:17:07,756 Speaker 1: midst of the Iranian Revolution, and you were immigrants, and 283 00:17:07,756 --> 00:17:11,956 Speaker 1: I suppose you were also refuge. How did that experience 284 00:17:12,076 --> 00:17:16,356 Speaker 1: or set of experiences lead you to working in law particularly? 285 00:17:17,556 --> 00:17:20,996 Speaker 1: I think for me that was the start of everything. So, Noah, 286 00:17:21,076 --> 00:17:22,876 Speaker 1: as you said, I came here as a little kid. 287 00:17:22,916 --> 00:17:26,436 Speaker 1: It was actually on Christmas Eve of nineteen seventy nine. 288 00:17:26,916 --> 00:17:29,476 Speaker 1: And you know, now I can say something that I 289 00:17:29,516 --> 00:17:32,796 Speaker 1: think I was quite nervous about saying over the course 290 00:17:32,796 --> 00:17:36,156 Speaker 1: of many years, which is that my mother and brother 291 00:17:36,196 --> 00:17:40,356 Speaker 1: and I arrived here with fake tourist visas likely in 292 00:17:40,396 --> 00:17:44,916 Speaker 1: our hands, wanting to make a claim for asylum, and 293 00:17:44,996 --> 00:17:48,436 Speaker 1: not even really knowing how to do that, and we 294 00:17:48,436 --> 00:17:52,236 Speaker 1: were admitted into the country and given the opportunity, with 295 00:17:52,316 --> 00:17:55,236 Speaker 1: the help of pro bono council, to make that claim, 296 00:17:55,476 --> 00:18:00,156 Speaker 1: and thus began ten years of immigration proceedings. You know, 297 00:18:00,196 --> 00:18:02,636 Speaker 1: my parents were schlepping me to the i S Office 298 00:18:02,676 --> 00:18:05,276 Speaker 1: in Newark from time to time to have some kind 299 00:18:05,316 --> 00:18:12,276 Speaker 1: of incomprehensible examination or hearing, where I basically understood that 300 00:18:12,316 --> 00:18:14,636 Speaker 1: what was at stake was whether we would be allowed 301 00:18:14,716 --> 00:18:18,396 Speaker 1: to continue our lives in this country, even though I 302 00:18:18,516 --> 00:18:22,276 Speaker 1: also fundamentally had no idea what was going on. And 303 00:18:22,356 --> 00:18:26,076 Speaker 1: all of that uncertainty only ended in the late eighties 304 00:18:26,076 --> 00:18:29,836 Speaker 1: when President Reagan did a wide scale amnesty for millions 305 00:18:29,836 --> 00:18:32,276 Speaker 1: of people, you know, to just end all of their 306 00:18:32,396 --> 00:18:34,476 Speaker 1: legal claims and allow us to get onto a path 307 00:18:34,556 --> 00:18:38,196 Speaker 1: for citizenship, which is what we did. And so I 308 00:18:38,316 --> 00:18:41,556 Speaker 1: tell you that story in some detail, Noah, because for 309 00:18:41,676 --> 00:18:45,716 Speaker 1: me that's my starting point. I experienced the law as 310 00:18:46,036 --> 00:18:49,316 Speaker 1: somewhat terrifying, mysterious, and I was on the other side 311 00:18:49,316 --> 00:18:51,556 Speaker 1: of it. And maybe for all of us, we make 312 00:18:51,716 --> 00:18:55,596 Speaker 1: choices that help us go from a feeling of being 313 00:18:55,636 --> 00:18:58,476 Speaker 1: an outsider to a feeling of being an insider. And 314 00:18:58,556 --> 00:19:00,756 Speaker 1: I think for me, although I could not have articulated 315 00:19:00,796 --> 00:19:05,196 Speaker 1: it this way all along, I wanted to be in 316 00:19:05,916 --> 00:19:08,396 Speaker 1: the role of the decision maker, having been the one 317 00:19:08,476 --> 00:19:11,276 Speaker 1: being DiscId it upon in all of those years. I 318 00:19:11,316 --> 00:19:14,956 Speaker 1: think that it also gives me a connection to the 319 00:19:15,036 --> 00:19:18,196 Speaker 1: vulnerability of people who pass through the criminal justice system. 320 00:19:18,236 --> 00:19:22,076 Speaker 1: That has always motivated me. And when I say that, 321 00:19:22,236 --> 00:19:24,956 Speaker 1: I don't just mean the defendant, but I also mean, 322 00:19:24,996 --> 00:19:29,556 Speaker 1: of course the victim, the witness. Really, all of these roles. 323 00:19:29,876 --> 00:19:33,276 Speaker 1: You are meeting people at the most vulnerable moment of 324 00:19:33,316 --> 00:19:37,676 Speaker 1: their lives often, and I think it's a great privilege 325 00:19:37,756 --> 00:19:42,396 Speaker 1: to be there. With them and to try to do 326 00:19:42,556 --> 00:19:46,156 Speaker 1: justice and a kind of restoration for them in that moment. 327 00:19:46,836 --> 00:19:50,236 Speaker 1: It's an extraordinary story, Telly, And I've heard you speak 328 00:19:50,276 --> 00:19:52,156 Speaker 1: about it a little bit before in terms of the 329 00:19:52,156 --> 00:19:54,636 Speaker 1: emotional impact of it, But I actually there's a detail 330 00:19:54,676 --> 00:19:56,436 Speaker 1: there that I actually don't think I've ever heard you 331 00:19:56,476 --> 00:20:00,516 Speaker 1: mentioned before, which was the part about the visas. I mean, 332 00:20:00,516 --> 00:20:03,276 Speaker 1: obviously you were tiny, but have you been able to 333 00:20:03,316 --> 00:20:05,436 Speaker 1: reconstruct some of that story where the visas in order 334 00:20:05,476 --> 00:20:07,756 Speaker 1: to get you on the plane in Iran you needed 335 00:20:07,756 --> 00:20:09,596 Speaker 1: to have something that looked like a US or visa 336 00:20:09,716 --> 00:20:13,236 Speaker 1: but would not withstand scrutiny when you landed in the 337 00:20:13,316 --> 00:20:14,836 Speaker 1: United States, so that you had to land and then 338 00:20:14,876 --> 00:20:18,516 Speaker 1: immediately put that away and say we are seeking asylum 339 00:20:18,596 --> 00:20:21,116 Speaker 1: or were they visas that you were also trying to present, 340 00:20:21,636 --> 00:20:23,796 Speaker 1: and if so, did that get you into the country? 341 00:20:23,836 --> 00:20:27,276 Speaker 1: And then were you technically undocumented? I mean, these are 342 00:20:27,276 --> 00:20:29,516 Speaker 1: fascinating questions at the Sorry sorry for having such a lawyer, 343 00:20:29,516 --> 00:20:32,316 Speaker 1: but no, it's kind of astonishing. Yeah, and you know, 344 00:20:32,396 --> 00:20:35,636 Speaker 1: no one's ever asked me those questions, which are technical 345 00:20:35,716 --> 00:20:40,596 Speaker 1: questions but also really deep questions. And I'm still getting 346 00:20:40,636 --> 00:20:43,876 Speaker 1: uncomfortable telling that story and an answer in questions like that. 347 00:20:43,996 --> 00:20:46,636 Speaker 1: So no, I did get a copy of my file 348 00:20:47,476 --> 00:20:49,916 Speaker 1: after I had already become a lawyer and was able 349 00:20:49,956 --> 00:20:53,636 Speaker 1: to make sense of it. And I don't have a 350 00:20:53,716 --> 00:20:57,316 Speaker 1: copy of the visas, but I do know that my 351 00:20:57,396 --> 00:21:00,436 Speaker 1: mother paid an exorbitant amount of money for them where 352 00:21:00,436 --> 00:21:03,396 Speaker 1: we bought them in Israel from a broker who was 353 00:21:03,436 --> 00:21:07,436 Speaker 1: selling them with one way tickets. So that's already a 354 00:21:07,476 --> 00:21:10,796 Speaker 1: red flag, right, a two week tot visa with a 355 00:21:10,836 --> 00:21:14,396 Speaker 1: one way ticket sold by a third party to you, Right, 356 00:21:14,676 --> 00:21:18,676 Speaker 1: I mean that's a pretty important fact, prosecutor. Right. I mean, 357 00:21:19,076 --> 00:21:21,556 Speaker 1: these are hard things to talk about and our things 358 00:21:21,596 --> 00:21:25,236 Speaker 1: to say. And what was most startling in that file, 359 00:21:25,356 --> 00:21:27,436 Speaker 1: I will tell you, is a letter written to me 360 00:21:27,916 --> 00:21:30,636 Speaker 1: when I was either four and a half or five 361 00:21:30,716 --> 00:21:32,676 Speaker 1: years old, because I don't remember how soon I got it, 362 00:21:32,756 --> 00:21:35,396 Speaker 1: you know, in the five it's addressed to me Farima 363 00:21:35,436 --> 00:21:40,596 Speaker 1: far Haitian, and it says you are in possession of 364 00:21:40,636 --> 00:21:45,036 Speaker 1: a fraudulent document that you have attempted to use to 365 00:21:45,356 --> 00:21:48,276 Speaker 1: enter the United States unlawfully. Please report to the following 366 00:21:48,316 --> 00:21:50,796 Speaker 1: address at the following time, you know, with all of 367 00:21:50,796 --> 00:21:53,796 Speaker 1: your paperwork and so you're saying the first piece of 368 00:21:53,876 --> 00:21:55,916 Speaker 1: communication you ever received from the US government was a 369 00:21:55,956 --> 00:21:59,756 Speaker 1: target letter. Yes, yes, and it's very scary, it is, 370 00:21:59,796 --> 00:22:01,556 Speaker 1: and I have it and I sort of look at 371 00:22:01,596 --> 00:22:04,356 Speaker 1: it sometimes and it still makes me, you know, uncomfortable. 372 00:22:04,396 --> 00:22:06,076 Speaker 1: And my parents got their own letters, but that one 373 00:22:06,196 --> 00:22:10,676 Speaker 1: was just for me, right for a kid. And you 374 00:22:10,756 --> 00:22:15,556 Speaker 1: know from your understanding of international law that of course 375 00:22:15,996 --> 00:22:19,556 Speaker 1: refugees throughout time and around the world have used all 376 00:22:19,556 --> 00:22:21,316 Speaker 1: sorts of means in order to be able to get 377 00:22:21,356 --> 00:22:23,916 Speaker 1: to a safe place to make their claim for asylum. 378 00:22:24,396 --> 00:22:27,676 Speaker 1: And a wrinkle in our case is that my very 379 00:22:27,716 --> 00:22:30,836 Speaker 1: young mother with two very young kids didn't know the 380 00:22:30,916 --> 00:22:34,316 Speaker 1: magic words to say at the airport, even though I 381 00:22:34,356 --> 00:22:38,076 Speaker 1: think she was trying to articulate. And it claimed that 382 00:22:38,116 --> 00:22:40,836 Speaker 1: she had a credible fear of persecution in her homeland. 383 00:22:41,276 --> 00:22:45,756 Speaker 1: And we were lucky to be inspected that night at 384 00:22:45,756 --> 00:22:50,196 Speaker 1: the airport by a law enforcement officer who used his discretion. Well, 385 00:22:50,196 --> 00:22:51,876 Speaker 1: now I'm just going to use technical words with you, 386 00:22:51,916 --> 00:22:55,996 Speaker 1: because you invited me to to parole us into the country, 387 00:22:56,076 --> 00:22:58,556 Speaker 1: so that means we had permission to enter, though no 388 00:22:58,756 --> 00:23:03,876 Speaker 1: authorization to enter, a kind of reprieve right a safety 389 00:23:03,956 --> 00:23:09,236 Speaker 1: valve that said, come in, collect yourselves. My father I 390 00:23:09,276 --> 00:23:11,116 Speaker 1: was waiting for us on the other side of border control. 391 00:23:11,156 --> 00:23:13,196 Speaker 1: He had come a few months ahead of us. This 392 00:23:13,276 --> 00:23:16,516 Speaker 1: officer knew this, And you know, it's really a very 393 00:23:16,596 --> 00:23:19,396 Speaker 1: moving detail to me, is that he would the other 394 00:23:19,516 --> 00:23:22,036 Speaker 1: end just trying to figure out where's my family. Everybody 395 00:23:22,036 --> 00:23:24,596 Speaker 1: else has gotten off of this flight and not them, 396 00:23:24,716 --> 00:23:27,036 Speaker 1: And an I and S officer said to him. A 397 00:23:27,116 --> 00:23:30,396 Speaker 1: second law enforcement officer said to him, don't worry, you'll 398 00:23:30,396 --> 00:23:35,076 Speaker 1: see them. It's Christmas. And we came in and that 399 00:23:35,276 --> 00:23:39,556 Speaker 1: small act was everything because it allowed us to figure 400 00:23:39,556 --> 00:23:42,316 Speaker 1: out how to walk into a lawyer's office the day 401 00:23:42,356 --> 00:23:47,436 Speaker 1: after Christmas, how to make this claim, and eventually, because 402 00:23:47,676 --> 00:23:52,276 Speaker 1: the system is often it's not perfect, right, my father 403 00:23:52,556 --> 00:23:55,796 Speaker 1: was granted asylum get the same claims we did. And 404 00:23:55,996 --> 00:23:59,076 Speaker 1: our case just lingered and stretched out for a very 405 00:23:59,116 --> 00:24:02,036 Speaker 1: long time, and maybe it wasn't even going so well 406 00:24:02,116 --> 00:24:07,116 Speaker 1: until we got amnesty. My mother, my brother, and I 407 00:24:07,116 --> 00:24:08,996 Speaker 1: I'm taking away from this, I mean I'm almost speech 408 00:24:09,116 --> 00:24:10,596 Speaker 1: So what I'm taking away from it is that you 409 00:24:10,636 --> 00:24:12,836 Speaker 1: were able to make a life in the United States 410 00:24:13,356 --> 00:24:18,236 Speaker 1: because of the act of discretion of law enforcement officials right, 411 00:24:18,356 --> 00:24:21,156 Speaker 1: And here you are running for an office where the 412 00:24:21,236 --> 00:24:24,036 Speaker 1: key to it is for the law enforcement officials of 413 00:24:24,036 --> 00:24:28,076 Speaker 1: whom you would be the chief one on the prosecution side, 414 00:24:28,276 --> 00:24:31,556 Speaker 1: exercise their discretion every day. Yes, And you asked me 415 00:24:31,596 --> 00:24:33,596 Speaker 1: at the beginning, well, is why is that so hard? 416 00:24:33,676 --> 00:24:37,516 Speaker 1: Can't you use your discretion for the good right, and 417 00:24:37,636 --> 00:24:41,156 Speaker 1: not for the bad? And it's in these moments where 418 00:24:41,156 --> 00:24:43,236 Speaker 1: you see how hard it is. It's hard to know 419 00:24:43,796 --> 00:24:46,516 Speaker 1: what kind of humanity to bring to that situation, how 420 00:24:46,556 --> 00:24:49,836 Speaker 1: to think about an individual case in the context of 421 00:24:50,316 --> 00:24:54,556 Speaker 1: the many similarly situated people who may be experiencing the 422 00:24:54,596 --> 00:24:56,996 Speaker 1: same thing. I mean, you know from your own experience 423 00:24:57,316 --> 00:25:00,596 Speaker 1: as a lawyer, knowah that that is a fundamental tension 424 00:25:00,836 --> 00:25:05,596 Speaker 1: in how American prosecutors have to use their discretion. This 425 00:25:05,676 --> 00:25:07,636 Speaker 1: is something that we thought about a lot when I 426 00:25:07,676 --> 00:25:11,316 Speaker 1: was working for Attorney role holder. Two principles that have 427 00:25:11,396 --> 00:25:13,436 Speaker 1: to live side by side. On the one hand, you 428 00:25:13,516 --> 00:25:16,596 Speaker 1: want to treat similarly situated people the same. On the 429 00:25:16,636 --> 00:25:19,676 Speaker 1: other hand, you want to come to every case really 430 00:25:19,716 --> 00:25:24,316 Speaker 1: appreciating and understanding its individuality and the effect that your 431 00:25:24,396 --> 00:25:26,956 Speaker 1: decisions are going to have on the individual people who 432 00:25:26,996 --> 00:25:29,156 Speaker 1: are standing in front of you, and it can be 433 00:25:29,196 --> 00:25:33,716 Speaker 1: hard to put those two things together. And I think 434 00:25:33,756 --> 00:25:38,836 Speaker 1: that you can only do it well after lots of experience, sure, 435 00:25:39,596 --> 00:25:44,276 Speaker 1: but also drawing on your own humanity and vulnerability in 436 00:25:44,396 --> 00:25:48,796 Speaker 1: making those decisions. You're really describing, I think a profound 437 00:25:48,836 --> 00:25:52,156 Speaker 1: truth at the heart of prosecution in our system. You know, 438 00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:54,116 Speaker 1: we might like to have a system where we know 439 00:25:54,156 --> 00:25:56,036 Speaker 1: how to do it. We have rules, and then by 440 00:25:56,116 --> 00:25:58,676 Speaker 1: applying those rules, we have to use the old words 441 00:25:58,716 --> 00:26:01,596 Speaker 1: of the Master's Constitution, a government of laws and not 442 00:26:01,756 --> 00:26:04,276 Speaker 1: of men. But if we just do it that way, 443 00:26:04,876 --> 00:26:06,436 Speaker 1: we're going to make a lot of mistakes. We're going 444 00:26:06,476 --> 00:26:09,596 Speaker 1: to fail to show compassion in the way that you 445 00:26:09,636 --> 00:26:11,916 Speaker 1: know the customs officers showed compassion to you and to 446 00:26:11,956 --> 00:26:15,796 Speaker 1: your mother and siblings on Christmas nineteen seventy nine. Yes, 447 00:26:15,916 --> 00:26:19,956 Speaker 1: we don't want robots right running these offices. But to 448 00:26:20,076 --> 00:26:24,076 Speaker 1: go back to our earlier conversation also about data and 449 00:26:24,316 --> 00:26:29,916 Speaker 1: unintentional consequences, even of prosecutors with really good intentions, I 450 00:26:29,956 --> 00:26:33,156 Speaker 1: think managing that discretion, leading people in the use of 451 00:26:33,156 --> 00:26:37,796 Speaker 1: their discretion while not completely taking away their discretion is 452 00:26:38,076 --> 00:26:40,436 Speaker 1: a complex question that, as I said, I started to 453 00:26:40,436 --> 00:26:43,156 Speaker 1: think about many years ago and is very much alive 454 00:26:43,316 --> 00:26:46,276 Speaker 1: inside the project of criminal justice reform at the local level. 455 00:26:46,316 --> 00:26:51,556 Speaker 1: Now to go from the sublime to the let's call 456 00:26:51,596 --> 00:26:55,876 Speaker 1: it the slightly less sublime, I want to talk about podcasts, dear. 457 00:26:57,396 --> 00:27:00,956 Speaker 1: So you've started a podcast, and your podcast is being 458 00:27:00,996 --> 00:27:04,556 Speaker 1: produced by Pushkin Industries, which is the same production company 459 00:27:04,596 --> 00:27:08,916 Speaker 1: that produces Deep Background. So we're cousins in the Pushkin world. 460 00:27:09,316 --> 00:27:11,716 Speaker 1: I knew you were interested in podcasts because right around 461 00:27:11,716 --> 00:27:14,436 Speaker 1: the time when we were starting up Deep Background, you 462 00:27:14,476 --> 00:27:16,676 Speaker 1: and I talked about maybe co hosting this show. So 463 00:27:16,716 --> 00:27:18,996 Speaker 1: in a way, today's episode is a kind of a 464 00:27:19,116 --> 00:27:21,276 Speaker 1: culmination of what was a dream for me and what 465 00:27:21,356 --> 00:27:24,236 Speaker 1: I'm sure listeners listening to you will think, like, well, yeah, 466 00:27:24,636 --> 00:27:26,156 Speaker 1: why didn't you do that, or why didn't you just 467 00:27:26,396 --> 00:27:30,156 Speaker 1: tally do it? Talk to me about why you decided 468 00:27:30,316 --> 00:27:33,756 Speaker 1: to start a podcast about running for office. As far 469 00:27:33,796 --> 00:27:36,156 Speaker 1: as I know, you're the first person ever to have 470 00:27:36,236 --> 00:27:39,276 Speaker 1: done that. I think that I am. I haven't done 471 00:27:39,276 --> 00:27:42,436 Speaker 1: a scientific survey, and so as you said, no, I've 472 00:27:42,476 --> 00:27:46,276 Speaker 1: been interested in the genre of podcasts for a long time, 473 00:27:46,516 --> 00:27:50,436 Speaker 1: and I've just been delighted to see you soar in 474 00:27:50,476 --> 00:27:54,156 Speaker 1: this role, and I've been interested in it because I 475 00:27:54,196 --> 00:27:58,036 Speaker 1: think that the friendliness and the long form of the 476 00:27:58,036 --> 00:28:00,676 Speaker 1: podcast really allows you, as you say, to go deep 477 00:28:00,756 --> 00:28:02,796 Speaker 1: into issues in a way that you would not be 478 00:28:02,836 --> 00:28:05,716 Speaker 1: able to otherwise. And as I started to put together 479 00:28:05,796 --> 00:28:08,476 Speaker 1: this campaign, I thought, well, what if we did that 480 00:28:08,596 --> 00:28:10,436 Speaker 1: on the issues of this campaign. I mean, we've just 481 00:28:10,476 --> 00:28:14,196 Speaker 1: discussed how hard it is to do this work, and 482 00:28:14,716 --> 00:28:17,716 Speaker 1: I've used the word vulnerability. I go back to that 483 00:28:17,796 --> 00:28:19,836 Speaker 1: because the other sort of advice I had gotten as 484 00:28:19,876 --> 00:28:22,916 Speaker 1: I was getting ready to run for office is voters 485 00:28:23,276 --> 00:28:27,116 Speaker 1: rightfully want to see your vulnerability. They want to see 486 00:28:27,116 --> 00:28:30,276 Speaker 1: who you are. And someone gave me the example of, well, 487 00:28:30,276 --> 00:28:32,756 Speaker 1: like you could cook on periscope to sort of show 488 00:28:32,756 --> 00:28:35,516 Speaker 1: them who you really are, and I thought, that's one way. 489 00:28:35,956 --> 00:28:40,236 Speaker 1: Or I could show them in this long form my heart, 490 00:28:40,676 --> 00:28:43,876 Speaker 1: my mind, how I think about things, what moves me, 491 00:28:44,196 --> 00:28:48,556 Speaker 1: who are the people that I keep counsel with. And then, 492 00:28:48,596 --> 00:28:50,716 Speaker 1: of course it turned out that I was running for 493 00:28:50,836 --> 00:28:54,516 Speaker 1: office in the midst of a global pandemic, and then 494 00:28:54,836 --> 00:28:57,876 Speaker 1: this question of can a podcast be a meaningful part 495 00:28:57,876 --> 00:29:01,556 Speaker 1: of a campaign became much more interesting because obviously our 496 00:29:01,596 --> 00:29:04,476 Speaker 1: ability to show the voter who we are and just 497 00:29:04,516 --> 00:29:09,636 Speaker 1: to connect with people is so severely limited. And we'll see, 498 00:29:09,716 --> 00:29:13,876 Speaker 1: you know, it's an experiment. We'll see if these two 499 00:29:13,956 --> 00:29:18,116 Speaker 1: things marry up and it becomes, I hope you know, 500 00:29:18,276 --> 00:29:22,036 Speaker 1: over time, part of the menu of what campaigns do 501 00:29:22,156 --> 00:29:24,316 Speaker 1: when they think about how they want to engage voters. 502 00:29:24,756 --> 00:29:28,276 Speaker 1: But we'll see. Dolly, Thank you, this is totally fascinating 503 00:29:28,436 --> 00:29:31,716 Speaker 1: and wishing you excellent luck with the podcast and better 504 00:29:31,796 --> 00:29:34,676 Speaker 1: luck even than that with the election. Thanks for giving 505 00:29:34,756 --> 00:29:37,996 Speaker 1: us a window into why you're running and to what 506 00:29:38,116 --> 00:29:40,276 Speaker 1: some of the really challenging issues are that you'll face 507 00:29:40,276 --> 00:29:48,636 Speaker 1: if elected. Thank you so much for having me. Noah. 508 00:29:49,116 --> 00:29:53,636 Speaker 1: Speaking to Tally about her campaign really brought home several 509 00:29:53,716 --> 00:29:58,476 Speaker 1: different lessons to me. The first lesson was really intensely personal, 510 00:29:58,756 --> 00:30:01,676 Speaker 1: because despite having known Tolly for a long time and 511 00:30:01,836 --> 00:30:05,756 Speaker 1: heard the story of her immigration experience before, I had 512 00:30:05,796 --> 00:30:09,516 Speaker 1: never realized just how narrow a thing it was for 513 00:30:09,596 --> 00:30:12,396 Speaker 1: her and her mother even to be allowed into the 514 00:30:12,436 --> 00:30:16,636 Speaker 1: country at all. The idea that the customs officials discretion 515 00:30:17,116 --> 00:30:19,796 Speaker 1: is what led her into the country on parole really 516 00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:23,636 Speaker 1: brings home how poetic it is that she's now running 517 00:30:23,676 --> 00:30:27,716 Speaker 1: for an office. The key component of which is exercising 518 00:30:27,836 --> 00:30:34,196 Speaker 1: prosecutorial discretion correctly and morally. Another takeaway for me was 519 00:30:34,236 --> 00:30:37,276 Speaker 1: just how hard it is to do that. So many 520 00:30:37,316 --> 00:30:40,356 Speaker 1: times prosecutors with the best of intentions have tried to 521 00:30:40,396 --> 00:30:43,516 Speaker 1: reform and change criminal justice in the United States and 522 00:30:43,596 --> 00:30:46,796 Speaker 1: have managed not to make it better, but unintendedly to 523 00:30:46,876 --> 00:30:50,636 Speaker 1: make things worse. The challenge is genuinely deep, and the 524 00:30:50,756 --> 00:30:55,116 Speaker 1: problems are genuinely hard. Last, but not least, from a 525 00:30:55,116 --> 00:30:58,876 Speaker 1: podcasting standpoint, it's kind of amazing that in the middle 526 00:30:58,876 --> 00:31:02,156 Speaker 1: of COVID, Tally has decided to use a podcast as 527 00:31:02,156 --> 00:31:05,276 Speaker 1: a component of her campaign to try to get into 528 00:31:05,396 --> 00:31:08,796 Speaker 1: the living rooms of her potential constituents in ways that 529 00:31:08,836 --> 00:31:11,996 Speaker 1: she can't do by going door to door. In the 530 00:31:12,036 --> 00:31:14,596 Speaker 1: nearly two years that I've been doing Deep Background, I've 531 00:31:14,636 --> 00:31:17,556 Speaker 1: been trying to learn every day how to do a 532 00:31:17,596 --> 00:31:22,556 Speaker 1: podcast better. The idea that podcasting can develop and change 533 00:31:22,636 --> 00:31:25,996 Speaker 1: in this way is I think, kind of inspiring for 534 00:31:26,036 --> 00:31:30,116 Speaker 1: a genre that's very much in development. Until the next 535 00:31:30,156 --> 00:31:33,356 Speaker 1: time I speak to you, all, be careful, be safe, 536 00:31:33,596 --> 00:31:36,196 Speaker 1: and be well. Deep Background is brought to you by 537 00:31:36,276 --> 00:31:40,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia Gencott. Our engineer is 538 00:31:40,236 --> 00:31:43,916 Speaker 1: Martin Gonzalez, and our showrunner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. Theme 539 00:31:43,996 --> 00:31:47,356 Speaker 1: music by Luis Gera at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Loo, Belle, 540 00:31:47,476 --> 00:31:51,316 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carlie mcgliori, Mackie Taylor, Eric Sandler, 541 00:31:51,316 --> 00:31:53,996 Speaker 1: and Jacob Weisberg. You can find me on Twitter at 542 00:31:54,076 --> 00:31:57,236 Speaker 1: Noah R. Feldman. I also write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, 543 00:31:57,356 --> 00:31:59,796 Speaker 1: which you can find at Bloomberg dot com slash feld 544 00:32:00,516 --> 00:32:03,836 Speaker 1: To discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go to Bloomberg 545 00:32:03,876 --> 00:32:06,876 Speaker 1: dot com slash podcasts, and if you liked what you've 546 00:32:06,876 --> 00:32:09,396 Speaker 1: heard today, please write a review or tell a frat. 547 00:32:10,156 --> 00:32:11,436 Speaker 1: This is deep background