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Speaker 1: Buddy Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. The song Home Sick

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Speaker 1: is a song from my youth. It resonates in my ears,

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Speaker 1: came out in the seventies and if you've never heard it,

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Speaker 1: it kind of takes you back on a bit of

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Speaker 1: a time travel if you will. I love ars. Other

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Speaker 1: people have recorded I think Travis TripIt recorded it and

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Speaker 1: rerecorded it, but it takes you back in time to

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Speaker 1: that moment you begin to think as kids, as kids

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Speaker 1: of the sixties, where were you well. I was just

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Speaker 1: a little thing back then. I was playing in the

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Speaker 1: backyard of my grandparents' house, where I lived most of

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Speaker 1: the time. It was a very people It's a well

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Speaker 1: worn phrase, people say it's very innocent time, and it

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Speaker 1: was for me, playing in my sandpile, enjoying life in

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Speaker 1: the Deep South. The further thing from my mind back

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Speaker 1: then was probably mass homicide in the news nationally. It

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Speaker 1: sent a chill down everyone spine of the horrors that

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Speaker 1: were revealed back in nineteen sixty nine, of what was

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Speaker 1: going on in Alick County, particularly as it applied to

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Speaker 1: the Manson family. Today owned body bags. We're going to

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Speaker 1: turn back the page a little bit and we're going

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Speaker 1: to re examine the murders of the Lobyankas.

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Speaker 2: August eleventh, nineteen sixty nine, Rosemary Labianca's teenage son discovers

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Speaker 2: the brutal murders carried out by three of Charles Manson's

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Speaker 2: followers the night before. Leno LaBianca had been stabbed twelve

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Speaker 2: times with a knife or bayonet and seven times with

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Speaker 2: a two tined carving fork, leaving fourteen puncture wounds in

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Speaker 2: his abdomen, was still stuck in his abdomen, and a

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Speaker 2: kitchen knife pierced his throat. The word war had also

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Speaker 2: been carved into his abdomen. Rosemary Lebianca had a total

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Speaker 2: of forty one stab wounds on the front and back

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Speaker 2: of her body, and autopsy showed that many of the

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Speaker 2: wounds were post mortem.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags. Hey,

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Speaker 1: Dave mac where were you in sixty nine?

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Speaker 3: I was a very very young child. This murder, the

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Speaker 3: Tate Lobianca murders, as they are commonly referred to, I

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Speaker 3: it actually impacted my life on a personal level and

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Speaker 3: professionally over the years because I lived in that area

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Speaker 3: when this happened. I was born and raised in southern California,

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Speaker 3: born in Hawthorne and raised in Orange County predominantly. But anyway,

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Speaker 3: when this happened, here's the thing that people may or man,

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Speaker 3: I know, and Joe you might not know. It happened

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Speaker 3: August eighth, August ninth, nineteen sixty nine. Think about some

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Speaker 3: other things that was actually happening in the world a

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Speaker 3: couple weeks earlier. Neil Armstrong Man on the Moon.

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Speaker 1: You bet, buddy, I remember it. I remember watching on

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Speaker 1: black and white television my grandparents' house. It was a

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Speaker 1: magical thing.

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Speaker 4: So that's a huge deal.

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Speaker 3: Made everybody, I mean just made everybody feel like anything's possible.

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Speaker 3: And a week after the murders, what else happened? Wouldstock

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Speaker 3: in New York right, so imagine and by the way,

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Speaker 3: and mixed into this same time period Chap Equittic and

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Speaker 3: Teddy Kennedy, So we had a lot going on in

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Speaker 3: the United States of America at the time that Rosemary

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Speaker 3: and Leno Labianco were murdered. It impacted my life because

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Speaker 3: being in southern California when Sharon Tate along with her friends,

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Speaker 3: and off the top of my head, I remember it

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Speaker 3: was Abagail Folger and Voytek Freikowski, Jay se Bring and

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Speaker 3: then they had the like a guy that was like

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Speaker 3: the yardkeeper. Anyway, that was such a big deal because

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Speaker 3: first of all, Sharon Tate was a beautif model, she

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Speaker 3: was an actress married to Roman Polanski, the master of

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Speaker 3: the macab Because of Rosemary's Baby, you start thinking about

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Speaker 3: how all these things kind of come together, and it's

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Speaker 3: like crazy time. But the next night the Labyancas, and

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Speaker 3: that was fear in the hearts of people. Sharon Tate

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Speaker 3: and celebrity rich people getting murdered is one thing, but

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Speaker 3: the Lobyancas were looked at as just regular people like

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Speaker 3: the rest of us. And now nobody's safe.

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Speaker 1: There's one little interesting factoid I think that some people

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Speaker 1: might not be aware of, and I got it to

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Speaker 1: give you an idea, a measure for how innocent Tim's

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Speaker 1: were when the Labyanca's bodies were actually discovered. That cannot

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Speaker 1: get access to the home, that is the family that

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Speaker 1: they were trying to open the door to get in.

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Speaker 1: Guess where they got the key from to unlock the

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Speaker 1: door to get into the house under the mat No,

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Speaker 1: they went and dig this just for a second. They

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Speaker 1: went out to the vehicle parked in the driveway, and

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Speaker 1: the keys were in the ignition, and they take the

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Speaker 1: key out of the ignition and make access to this

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Speaker 1: house with that key. And can you just imagine when

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Speaker 1: Rosemary Labanca's children went into this environment and they see

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Speaker 1: these words scrawled in blood on the walls, on the doors.

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Speaker 1: I think, most famously the words helter skelter. By the way,

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Speaker 1: I think it was misspelled. And there's several interesting things

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Speaker 1: about this is because some people think that it was

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Speaker 1: intentionally misspelled. There were little clues along the way. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if any of these people were that sophisticated.

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Speaker 1: You walk in and you see this horror show, and

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Speaker 1: it was truly a horror show. Lots and lots of

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Speaker 1: blood evidence at the scene, and I don't know that

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Speaker 1: you could necessarily take the measure of it. You have

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Speaker 1: the police coming off the so called Tate homicides on

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Speaker 1: clo and then you walk into this environment and you know,

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Speaker 1: there was resistance at first by the police to at

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Speaker 1: least publicly show any kind of connectivity between what had

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Speaker 1: happened previously with Sharon Tate and that group of people

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Speaker 1: and then what had happened with the Labiancas, and it

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Speaker 1: all goes to what was trying to be accomplished here.

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Speaker 1: I think with the police one of the biggest things

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Speaker 1: for them is they were trying to prevent a panic

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Speaker 1: because can you imagine what those conversations were like, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the detective bureau when you've got arguably two blood

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Speaker 1: baths that have taken place, and you've got the shadow

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Speaker 1: of celebrity that's kind of hanging over both of these events,

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Speaker 1: with Sharon Tate and everyone up on Colo, and then

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Speaker 1: you've got the Lobyancas. Okay, they're starting up here in

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Speaker 1: relative to the celebrities. Now they're going out here where

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Speaker 1: the rest of us mix and mingle, the mere mortals

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Speaker 1: among us.

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Speaker 3: And the one thing to think of again, nineteen sixty

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Speaker 3: nine was a different time and the way we lived

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Speaker 3: the Tate Lobianca murders. Joe, we could actually spend all

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Speaker 3: of today, tomorrow the next day talking just about these murders,

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Speaker 3: and we would go for twenty four hours a day

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Speaker 3: for the next few day and wouldn't finish. There's too much.

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Speaker 3: So focusing on the Labyancas. They were married couple. They

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Speaker 3: actually were the next day, meaning the day after the

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Speaker 3: Tate murders had taken place. And the reason it's in

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Speaker 3: the news this week is because Leslie Van Howden actually

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Speaker 3: was released from prison after fifty some odd years. Now,

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Speaker 3: here's the kick, Joe, and you've been around crime scenes

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Speaker 3: and murders for a long time. I really want to

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Speaker 3: hear your explanation of what police for looking at when

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Speaker 3: they got to the scene of the crime. But the

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Speaker 3: bottom line is with Leslie van Houghten being a Manson

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Speaker 3: family member, one of the women, well she actually only

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Speaker 3: was involved in the Labyanca murders. She was not at

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Speaker 3: the previous night's activities. At the Lobyanca crime scene. You

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Speaker 3: had Tex Watson, he and Charlie. And by the way,

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Speaker 3: Charlie Manson was not at the Tape murders. He was, however,

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Speaker 3: at the Lobbyanca house at the.

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Speaker 4: House, but he beat feet before the actual event occurred,

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Speaker 4: right they get there. Well, I'm gonna skip through this

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Speaker 4: real fast. Charlie Manson had convinced these young people that

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Speaker 4: a race war was coming and they needed to have

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Speaker 4: a safe place out in the desert, which is why

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Speaker 4: they were maneuvered out there. In reality, they were out there.

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Speaker 3: Because they'd been stealing volkswagons and converting them into doom

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Speaker 3: buggies and selling them, and the heat was getting hot,

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Speaker 3: and so they wanted to get out of town. And

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Speaker 3: Charlie went there and in their drug whatever decided that

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Speaker 3: they needed to commit crimes. The Manson family that would

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Speaker 3: they needed to commit murders that didn't make sense. That's

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Speaker 3: what the La Beiyanca murder was all about, a murder

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Speaker 3: that didn't make any sense and would cause fear and

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Speaker 3: panic in people. And Leslie Van Honton said that in

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Speaker 3: her own words. By the way, I actually listened to

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Speaker 3: this yesterday in preparation for the show and heard her

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Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy one talking to her new lawyer. He said,

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Speaker 3: how are you going to start a revolution? She actually said,

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Speaker 3: Joe by committing a senseless murder, which is exactly what

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Speaker 3: Leno and Rosemary LaBianca. It was just a murder. But

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Speaker 3: anyway I mentioned, Charles Manson was not at the Tate House, well,

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Speaker 3: he was at the Labyankas. Charles Manson and Text Watson

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Speaker 3: go inside the Labiyanca's house. And by the way, these

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Speaker 3: mental giants. The Manson family. They've been driving around for

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Speaker 3: a couple hours looking for a place that they could

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Speaker 3: go in and commit this heinous act. Right they didn't

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Speaker 3: find one right away, and so Leslie van Hown said

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Speaker 3: she fell asleep in the car as they were driving around.

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Speaker 3: When she woke up, Charles and Tex Watson had gone

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Speaker 3: in the house and they'd already tied up Leno and

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Speaker 3: Rosemary LaBianca. They found Lino on the couch in the

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Speaker 3: living room in the den, and so they tied him up,

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Speaker 3: and then Charlie Manson went in and they got Rosemary

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Speaker 3: out of bed, she was already in bed, got her

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Speaker 3: up and you know, sign of the Times, maybe Joe.

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Speaker 3: But before they brought Rosemary Labyanca out of the bedroom,

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Speaker 3: she was already in her night clothes. And do you

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Speaker 3: know what she did? And they let her They let

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Speaker 3: her put on a dress. Rosemary Lobianca was allowed to

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Speaker 3: put on a dress over her night clothes, to be

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Speaker 3: a dressed appropriately for what she thought was just a robbery.

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Speaker 3: Charles Manson and Text Watson said, you're not going to

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Speaker 3: be hurt. We just want your money. So they got

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Speaker 3: the cash and then Charlie goes outside, they send the

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Speaker 3: girls in. They sent Leslie Van Houghton and Patricia Crinwinkle

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Speaker 3: to go in and kill Rosemary Lobbyond.

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Speaker 1: Okay, One interesting little aside here is that you think

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Speaker 1: about Manson and kind of how he had been prepping

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Speaker 1: this crew. That's the way you have to look at it.

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Speaker 1: It's an organized crime venture, is what it comes down to.

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Speaker 1: Because they were a collection of thieves, is essentially what

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Speaker 1: they were. And of course they're fueled by asurgic acid

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Speaker 1: to a great degree. You know, it's been well documented

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Speaker 1: stated that they would drop LSD. There's some people that

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Speaker 1: have actually opined that Manson himself would fake taking LSD

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Speaker 1: and then everybody else would have it on board and

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Speaker 1: he could influence them and begin to talk to them

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Speaker 1: when they're tripping essentially. But one of the things that

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Speaker 1: he would do, to give you back to this idea

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Speaker 1: of thievery, this being a theft ring, is that he

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Speaker 1: introduced them to something called creepy crawling. He would actually

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Speaker 1: have these people go out and purposefully go into residences

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Speaker 1: in a stealth like manner, and the trick was not

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Speaker 1: to be caught, and they would go in and perhaps

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Speaker 1: rearrange things and not necessarily take anything, but just to

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Speaker 1: kind of hone these skills so that they could go

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Speaker 1: in and commit thievery, stealing, if you will, burglary and

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Speaker 1: not be caught. I think here's the big question though,

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Speaker 1: If that's the case, what is it that would motivate

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Speaker 1: a band of thieves that lived out in the desert,

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Speaker 1: away from society. What is it that caused them to

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Speaker 1: commit such a horrible, horrible crime. There's a couple of

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Speaker 1: classic images black and white photography of the exterior of

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Speaker 1: the scene up on Siela, where the Tate home was

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Speaker 1: and where that multiple homicide took place. In One that

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Speaker 1: really jumps to mind is there's an image of one

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Speaker 1: of my heroes at the scene, and that's doctor Tom Magucci,

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Speaker 1: who was with the Medical Examiner corner back during that

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Speaker 1: time at Los Angeles, probably arguably one of the greatest

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Speaker 1: forensic pathologists that's ever worked in my way of estimation.

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Speaker 1: But he was at the scene and what he bore

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Speaker 1: witness to there. He's talked about or had talked about

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Speaker 1: previously on many occasions at the Tate residence. Horrible things

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Speaker 1: that happened, obviously over the years, and we see this

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Speaker 1: carnage that erupts from time to time, But I don't

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Speaker 1: know that anybody could really fully appreciate what they were

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Speaker 1: seeing then and try to make sense of it, the

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Speaker 1: level of brutality. And so one interesting little point bringing

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Speaker 1: it back to the Lobyanca double homicide, is that apparently

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Speaker 1: at first the investigators really were thinking that they might

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Speaker 1: be dealing with a copycat crime. That the word had

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Speaker 1: leaked out at that point in time about how horrific

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Speaker 1: the Tate homicides were, and then you see this horror

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Speaker 1: show that takes place at the Lobbyanca household. They're thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 1: somebody read about this and they just wanted to see

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Speaker 1: if they could duplicate it. What do you think about that, Dave.

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Speaker 3: I lived there in this area at that time as

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Speaker 3: a young child, And one of the things that I

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Speaker 3: think people forget it's about copycat crimes. There was so

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Speaker 3: much made about Sharon Tate because she was eight and

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Speaker 3: a half months pregnant when she was murdered, and this

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Speaker 3: was a horrible crime scene and it was splashed everywhere.

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Speaker 3: And then you have this normal class Rosemary and Lena

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Speaker 3: LaBianca being murdered, and there was some thought that copycat

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Speaker 3: crimes were going to occur. My family personally, we were

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Speaker 3: moving into a new a different home, a bigger home.

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Speaker 3: In the process of the move Joe Scott Morgan, I

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Speaker 3: remember going to that house on our move in was

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Speaker 3: delayed for some reason. I was a kid, I don't

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Speaker 3: you know. I didn't know why at the time, but

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Speaker 3: I know that when we got there the week after Halloween,

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Speaker 3: you could still see the chalk outline in the next

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Speaker 3: door neighbors driveway where a dead body had been. We

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Speaker 3: didn't know if it was actually a Halloween prank or

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Speaker 3: if there was a copycat murder, because that's what we

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Speaker 3: were all talking about at the time. One thing people

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Speaker 3: need to know is that while the murders took place

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Speaker 3: August eight, nine ten, the Tate Lobianca murders, that they

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Speaker 3: were not caught right away. It was actually a couple

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Speaker 3: of months, and there was a lot of tabloid journalism

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Speaker 3: at work and a lot of very poorly researched information,

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Speaker 3: So there was there's a lot of lies, a lot

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Speaker 3: of myths were being created at the time, but when

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Speaker 3: you get right down to it, there were only three

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Speaker 3: people inside the house for the Lobbyancas that actually committed

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Speaker 3: the murders, and that's Tax Watson, Patricia Crinwinkle, and Leslie

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Speaker 3: van Houghton Charles Manson. He did go in the house

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Speaker 3: and he in text tied up Leno and Rosemary Lobyanca.

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Speaker 3: But Charles left because he's that kind of guy. And

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Speaker 3: he told them the night before at the Tate resident

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Speaker 3: that it had been very messy, and he said, don't

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Speaker 3: you know, let's make it more clean. And when he

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Speaker 3: of course, he takes off with other members of the

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Speaker 3: family there and he leaves the job of murder up

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Speaker 3: to Patricia cram with Leslie van Houghton, who were supposed

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Speaker 3: to take out Rosemary, and tex who was supposed to

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Speaker 3: take out Leno. When it actually happened, Leslie van Houghton

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Speaker 3: had never killed anybody before, and she wrote and talked

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Speaker 3: about some things that I'm kind of I'm hoping you'll

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Speaker 3: explain this to us. She actually pointed out some things

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Speaker 3: that were just horrific to me. But setting the stage

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Speaker 3: inside the house, Lino and Rosemary LaBianca have both been

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Speaker 3: tied up. Their hands are tied in the case of

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Speaker 3: Rosemary LaBianca. A pillow case had been placed over her

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Speaker 3: head and it had been tied off with a lamp cord.

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Speaker 3: But they didn't bother like rip the cord off the lamp.

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Speaker 3: The lamp was still attached. So Rosemary LaBianca hands tied

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Speaker 3: up the pillow case over her head and she's sitting there.

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Speaker 3: Lino meanwhile Lebyanka had his hands tied and he also

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Speaker 3: is sitting and waiting for the robbery to finish, because

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Speaker 3: that's what they were told. Since Charles Manson and those

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Speaker 3: guys are down the road, that's when the murder begins.

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Speaker 3: Tex Watson took charge of killing Lino LaBianca, Patricia Creenwinkle,

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Speaker 3: and Leslie Van Houghten. It was their job to kill

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Speaker 3: Rosemary in her bedroom. To Rosemary Labyanca, already we had

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Speaker 3: text Watson stabbing away on Lino just I mean horrifically.

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Speaker 3: But Leslie Houghton said later that it wasn't new for Text,

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Speaker 3: he had done this before, he had killed before. For

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Speaker 3: Leslie Van Houghten to kill Rosemary Labyanca, it was horrific,

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Speaker 3: to the point that she didn't know what it was

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Speaker 3: like cutting through human flesh. She thought it would be

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Speaker 3: different Joseph Scott Morgan, and I wonder how many of us,

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Speaker 3: because I've never thought about it until I read that,

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Speaker 3: how many us really thought about what it would be?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 3: What force does it take to actually kill somebody with

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Speaker 3: a knife. That's a personal thing. If you're shooting somebody,

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Speaker 3: you can do it from a distance. With a knife,

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Speaker 3: you're up close and personal. It is very personal. And

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Speaker 3: so while Leslie Van Houghton and Patricia Creamwinkle are trying

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Speaker 3: to kill Rosemary Lebyanka in her bedroom, Rosemary fights back

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Speaker 3: and the lamp cord used to keep that pillow case

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Speaker 3: on her head, well, the lamp now becomes a weapon.

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Speaker 3: She can't see, but she was fighting for her life

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Speaker 3: and winning. She was beating Leslie Van Houghton and Patricia

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Speaker 3: Creenwigill to the point where they yelled for Text Watson.

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Speaker 3: He's in the middle of stabbing Lino and they're like, Tex,

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Speaker 3: you got to get in here now. He had already

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Speaker 3: stabbed Lena LaBianca a lot. Leno had no fight left

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Speaker 3: in him, so Tex left him to go back and

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Speaker 3: help them kill Rosemary Labyanca.

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Speaker 1: With the participation of Van Houghten. I think that it's

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Speaker 1: important to remember that she was out of the so

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Speaker 1: called Manson family. She was one of the youngest members

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Speaker 1: nineteen at the time, I believe.

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Speaker 3: High school cheerleader and prince at homecoming princess.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, from this area of the country as well. She's

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Speaker 1: one of these kind of people that was kind of

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Speaker 1: glommed on to Manson. However, later reports say that she

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Speaker 1: was kind of a leader among these folks, but she

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Speaker 1: wasn't present when the Tait murders took place. She was

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Speaker 1: specifically brought in to handle the Lobyancas, these random people

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Speaker 1: that they had identified. And what's quite interesting when you

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Speaker 1: begin to kind of explore what happened at this residence

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Speaker 1: that particular night with Lobyanca, mister Lobianca, all of his

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Speaker 1: injuries are essentially anterior, which means on the front of

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Speaker 1: his body, and there are multiple stab wounds to his

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Speaker 1: neck and to his abdomen. And he died as a

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Speaker 1: result of massive hemorrhage, which means that every time this

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Speaker 1: knife is plunged into his body, that you're creating another

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Speaker 1: channel for blood to kind of seep out, and he's

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Speaker 1: going to be bleeding out internally. When you begin to

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Speaker 1: look through the autopsy reports on him. His right carotid artery,

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Speaker 1: which is the major artery in the neck that essentially

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Speaker 1: supplies the brain with blood, is the right one on

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Speaker 1: the right aspect of people will essentially index finger just

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Speaker 1: to the right of your trachea. It's rest right in

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Speaker 1: this area. So that knife was buried through that surface

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Speaker 1: into his neck. It's completely what they've referred to as transsected.

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Speaker 1: In addition to that, he's got a laceration of his trachea.

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Speaker 1: So if you take that orientation that we just mentioned

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Speaker 1: about the carotid artery and slightly move over to the

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Speaker 1: midline which people refer to as the wind pipe with

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Speaker 1: the trachia, it's lacerated as well, which means that Dave,

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Speaker 1: this is not just merely a slice when they say laceration,

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Speaker 1: You've got this kind of blunting action that's taking the

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Speaker 1: edges and the margins of this thing. Would not have

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Speaker 1: been very neat and moving from the top of the body.

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Speaker 1: Just to give you an idea of how extensive this was,

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Speaker 1: they had taken the knife and buried it into not

357
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Speaker 1: just his small bowel, but also his large bowel, into

358
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Speaker 1: his colon, so you've got insults that are running the

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Speaker 1: full length of his upper body, and when the body

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Speaker 1: is received at the morgue, I can only imagine at

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Speaker 1: that moment in time they're trying to make sense of

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Speaker 1: One of the things that you're always asked about with

363
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Speaker 1: these types of events, are sequencing in what order did

364
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Speaker 1: these things actually occur? And you begin to think about, well,

365
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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily possible to be able to tell anyone

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Speaker 1: what sequence they actually took place in. There's been a

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Speaker 1: lot of as they used to say, ink slung over

368
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Speaker 1: the injuries that LaBianca sustained probably one of the more

369
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Speaker 1: striking things. Even at the scene, the corner investigator made

370
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Speaker 1: note of the fact that there was some kind of

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Speaker 1: rudimentary engraving on the surface of this man's abdomen, and

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Speaker 1: the word, as it turns out, was the word war.

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Speaker 1: This means that the individual that had done this would

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Speaker 1: have had to have had the will to sit there

375
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Speaker 1: and make this happen, to actually sit there and be

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Speaker 1: able to perhaps tolerate the sounds of this man as

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Speaker 1: life is leaving his body, taking the tip of a

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Speaker 1: knife which they believe was utilized, and making it through

379
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Speaker 1: the dermis of his skin, so that the individuals could

380
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Speaker 1: appreciate that later on when they walked onto the scene.

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Speaker 1: This goes into areas like motivation, you know, why would

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Speaker 1: somebody do this? And going back with our theme here,

383
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Speaker 1: the idea that back during this time the police are

384
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Speaker 1: trying to make sense of this. And then interestingly enough,

385
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Speaker 1: one of the things that was also documented was this

386
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Speaker 1: idea of the carving fork that was left behind the

387
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Speaker 1: individual little points on forks or referred to as times, well,

388
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Speaker 1: the times for carving fork, two of them. I think

389
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Speaker 1: that in some of the media that's out there, these

390
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Speaker 1: movies that have been created over the years, I think

391
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Speaker 1: there was one in particular, very graphic where they showed

392
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 1: the victim the actor was stabbed with a fork and

393
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: it was kind of bouncing about and that sort of thing.

394
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: This was actually a superficial wound. And the corner investigator

395
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: makes an interesting point here, and this goes to the

396
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 1: larger group of evidence here in this case where he

397
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 1: talks about if they had not removed that fork, that

398
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: carving fork from mister Labianca's abdomen, it could very well

399
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 1: have fallen out and they would have lost the evidence

400
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: at that moment in time. For us in forensics, you

401
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: know kind of our rule of thumb, and this actually

402
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: applies in medicine too. If you ever see these things

403
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 1: where people say, well, if there's an object impaled in

404
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 1: somebody's body, don't remove it, because it's going to If

405
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 1: you remove it, you're going to promote blood flow. Okay,

406
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: you're creating this kind of defect in the But for

407
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: us in forensics, we want to be able to appreciate

408
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: an item in sight too, is what it's referred to

409
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 1: as in place rather in place, so that it can

410
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: be fully documented and appreciated by the forensic pathologist. Keep

411
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: in mind, most of the time you're not going to

412
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 1: have a forensic pathologist at the scene to see the

413
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 1: body in its pristine post mortem state, So you try

414
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: to leave any kind of elements that are in or

415
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: on the body in place, and that way it'll be

416
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: more thoroughly examined at the morgue. And in this particular case,

417
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: they actually had to remove it because they very well

418
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: could have lost that evidence. And of course we know

419
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: that it's significant because it goes to the behavior of

420
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: the individual. It wasn't just simply a knife wound. We're

421
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: talking about multiple weapons that led to mister Lobianca's death.

422
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: Many of the deaths that I've investigated over the course

423
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: of my career, for good or bad, I have an

424
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: ability of kind of placing myself in the position of victims,

425
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,719
Speaker 1: or at least kind of trying to imagine what they

426
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 1: had gone through. With single victims, it's it's hard, I think,

427
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: or it's less nuanced when you have family members that

428
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: are killed simultaneously. There's something about from in my case,

429
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: my own humanity that begins to think about the relationship

430
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: that these individuals within a home like this had La Bianca's.

431
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: I'm referring to what was going through their minds at

432
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: that moment in time, because you have two people that

433
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 1: were apparently happy married, they'd built a life together. Missus

434
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: Lobianca managed to address store. Mister Lobianca was a grocery executive.

435
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: They had built a home together, not simply a house,

436
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 1: but a home, and they were still involved in their

437
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: children's lives. And you think, in those last moments before

438
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: you leave this earth, what was going through their mind?

439
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: The pure horror, the pure terror, because it's not just

440
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: what's happening to you. You begin to kind of imagine

441
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: what's happening to my loved one, what's happening to my

442
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: beloved spouse that might be in the other room. You're

443
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: hearing screams, you're hearing commotion, and maybe not thinking about

444
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: the pain that's being inflicted upon you, but about the

445
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: pain that's being inflicted upon them.

446
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 3: Leno and Rosemary LaBianca had been told when they were

447
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 3: woken up, they were told, this is justin robbery. We're

448
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 3: just taking your money and you're not going to be hurt.

449
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 3: They were tied up with that in mind. That's a

450
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 3: text Watson told and that's what Charles Manson told him,

451
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 3: We're not going to be hurt. All the way up

452
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 3: until the point where the killing began, they were told,

453
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 3: you're not going to be hurt. Rosemary LaBianca was in

454
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 3: her bedroom with Leslie Van Holton and Patricia Crinwinkle. She

455
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 3: hears commotion going on while Tex Watson is stabbing Lena LaBianca,

456
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,959
Speaker 3: and she asked, what's going on with Lenoleno? Are you okay?

457
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 3: And that's what caused her, Rosemary LaBianca to actually really

458
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 3: fight back hard to the point where Patricia Crinwinkle and

459
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 3: Leslie van Houghton could not control her. They screamed out

460
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 3: for text to get help. Because of Rosemary LaBianca. She

461
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 3: just I don't the heart of that woman. But I

462
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 3: have a question for you, Joe, because I'm curious after

463
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 3: the fact. Could you tell in an examination the difference

464
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 3: between a wound being done by Leslie van Houghton and

465
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 3: Patricia Crinwinkle versus a wound created by Tex Watson, who

466
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 3: is obviously going to hit harder. Could you tell a

467
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 3: difference between that type of a knife wound that's.

468
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: Going to be heavily depended day First off, on the

469
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: instrument that's used, how robust the instrument is that is

470
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: being utilized in order to inflict the injuries, and what

471
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: structures this instrument is going to strike. Because it's not

472
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: as we've talked about before on body bags, it's not

473
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: just passing through the skin and through the muscle. You

474
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: have to think about any kind of bony prominences that

475
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: are there, whether it's ribs or the spine. In Miss

476
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: Labianca's case in particular, because her spinal cord is essentially transacted,

477
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: what type of force would it take in order to

478
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: inflict these There's another important piece to this. There was

479
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: a need on the part of the Manson family as

480
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: it applied to vn how and I believe for her

481
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: to get her hands dirty. So the question arises, how

482
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: many of these insults that that both of these victims,

483
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: and Rosemary in particular, because hers were as bad as

484
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: it is to talk about carving on Lobianca's body and

485
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: this carving knife that was utilized on him in its measure,

486
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: I think that Rosemary got the real horror show thrown

487
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: at her. Her injuries were over the top. A lot

488
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: of that has to go to you were mentioning how

489
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: much she fought. She had to be restrained. They had

490
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: to guarantee that she was not going to get back

491
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: up off of that floor. Most of her injuries are

492
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: posterior on her back. You begin to think about that

493
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: and the level of force that's used, and also how

494
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: many of these injury tracks where she sustained these stab wounds,

495
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: how many of these actually had hemorrhage in them, Because

496
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: that's the big delineation here for us between this idea

497
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: of post mortem and anti mortem injuries. You know, you

498
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: think about the anti mortem injuries, these wounds that are

499
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: inflicted on her. You think about, well, how many of

500
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: these came while she was still alive, and how many

501
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: of these happened afterwards. And they're randomized. It's not like

502
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: they're necessarily in any particular order or have penetrated specific

503
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: anatomical structures and stayed in that particular area. A lot

504
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: of the stuff that has occurred to her is randomized.

505
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: It's all over her body, so that gives you an

506
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: idea of what kind of fight had ensued initially, and

507
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: when you begin to look at it, you begin to

508
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: think about the horror that was inflicted upon her. What

509
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: we do know is that they have enumerated these injuries

510
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: and she had sustained I think, if I'm not mistaken,

511
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: twenty two insults on the upper portion of her back

512
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: and fourteen on the lower portion of her back. And

513
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: one of these that gives you an idea as to

514
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: how much power was involved in this, is that she's

515
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: got transsecting injury of her neck. Place your finger at

516
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: the base of your skull. The first vertebral body that

517
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: you have there is c one that's referred to as

518
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,479
Speaker 1: the atlas, and you just think about atlas holding up

519
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: the world. From mythology, you go to the second vertebral body,

520
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: which is immediately below the atlas, and then the third.

521
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: There is a wound that passes between that junction right there,

522
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: and the vertebral bodies are some of the most robust

523
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: elements in our body as far as the skeletal structure goes.

524
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: They transacted that day. That's how much power was involved

525
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: in this, which means that that knife passed through in

526
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: between those two vertebral bodies and completely transsected her cerebral

527
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: spinal cord.

528
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 3: The one thing that I I did see with Leslie

529
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 3: van Houghton describing the killing, this is her exact words.

530
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 3: I was supposed to mess her up, and I took

531
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 3: the knife and I started stabbing, and I turned into

532
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 3: an animal almost. I just completely let out on that

533
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 3: woman's back. You just mentioned the wounds on her back,

534
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,959
Speaker 3: Leslie van Houghten talking about I completely let out on

535
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 3: that woman's back. But then she says, it's not like

536
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 3: cutting a piece of meat. It's much tougher. I had

537
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 3: to use both hands and all my pressure and all

538
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 3: my strength behind it to get it in. What actually

539
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 3: is she describing there.

540
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: Joe, She's in a dominant position. And remember this is

541
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: not something she's doing by herself, Dave. There are other people,

542
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: other hands involved in this, and she is essentially in

543
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: a dominant position. This is a perfect example of what

544
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: we refer to as a symmetry in an attack. That

545
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: means you've got one individual that's dominant over another. And

546
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: what's really the tail of the tape is that since

547
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: these injuries are posterior on Rosemary la Bianca's body, that

548
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: means that she's faced down more than likely throughout most

549
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: of this attack, and you have access to that particular

550
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: plane of the body. The knife is being driven downward.

551
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: When say, look, if you're ever attacked by a bear,

552
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: crawl up into a kind of contract yourself up into

553
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: a ball. And one of the reasons is is that

554
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: I've often envisioned in my mind that our back is

555
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: almost like a turtle shell. We have all of these

556
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: bony prominences and structures posteriorly because you know, our ribs

557
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: are not just on the front of our body and sides.

558
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: They mixed in into the back and they attached to

559
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: our spine, and so you've got this kind of rigidity

560
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: that comes in well, no wonder she is stating and

561
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: has admitted to having to drive this knife through these

562
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: bony structures with both hands, and essentially to give you

563
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,879
Speaker 1: an idea as to how much force was involved. Not

564
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: only do we have this laceration of the spinal cord,

565
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 1: but in addition to that, there was so much force

566
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 1: used during the midst of this attack that Rosemary LaBianca

567
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: also sustained injuries of her lung it perforated, along also

568
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: her stomach, and in addition to that her spleen was lacerated.

569
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: And for what For absolutely what you asked that question,

570
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 1: I think we all do. It's just a random event

571
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: that occurred where these two people who had nothing to

572
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: do with race wars, had nothing to do with hippie culture,

573
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with anything other than just simply living.

574
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: Their lives are gone and now Leslie Van Houghton is free.

575
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs