WEBVTT - Justin Richmond and Malcolm Gladwell: LIVE at Medgar Evers College 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:25.596 Pushkin. I'm justin Richmond, and this is Started from the bottom. 0:00:25.636 --> 0:00:29.756 A show about outsiders, A show about ordinary people who 0:00:29.796 --> 0:00:35.316 achieved something extraordinary, about people who come from humble beginnings, 0:00:35.356 --> 0:00:38.836 who scraped and struggled and didn't quit until one day 0:00:38.876 --> 0:00:44.196 they found themselves at the summit of success. These conversations 0:00:44.276 --> 0:00:48.316 with everyone from media icons to entrepreneurs, to champion fighters 0:00:48.396 --> 0:00:52.556 to inventors have been amazing. I've learned tons and can't 0:00:52.596 --> 0:00:55.356 wait for you to hear them. But today, for the 0:00:55.396 --> 0:00:59.156 first episode, we're doing something a little different. I'm talking 0:00:59.156 --> 0:01:01.916 about my own story, the story that led me to 0:01:01.956 --> 0:01:05.076 start this show. It's a story that's probably familiar to 0:01:05.116 --> 0:01:07.316 a lot of you listening. It's about figuring out my 0:01:07.356 --> 0:01:10.676 identity and about finding my place in professional and academic 0:01:10.716 --> 0:01:14.476 worlds where not many people look like me. I have 0:01:14.516 --> 0:01:16.556 the honor of having this conversation in front of a 0:01:16.596 --> 0:01:20.716 live audience with my mentor, close friend and colleague Herera Pushkin, 0:01:21.236 --> 0:01:25.076 Malcolm Gladwell. Malcolm wanted to have a conversation that would 0:01:25.116 --> 0:01:28.316 introduce me to his podcast audience on revisionist history, and 0:01:28.396 --> 0:01:30.276 after hearing it, I thought it'd be a great way 0:01:30.356 --> 0:01:33.956 to introduce myself to the audience here see you. So 0:01:33.956 --> 0:01:35.956 I'm gonna play the conversation as it appeared on a 0:01:36.036 --> 0:01:38.676 Visioness History I. Once you listen to that, you can 0:01:38.756 --> 0:01:43.036 check out episode two, which came out simultaneously, my conversation 0:01:43.236 --> 0:01:48.396 with Charlemagne the God. Now here's my conversation with Malcolm Gladwell. 0:01:49.756 --> 0:01:52.036 I'm going to play for you an interview I did 0:01:52.076 --> 0:01:55.836 with an old friend and Pushkin co conspirator, Justin Richmond, 0:01:56.036 --> 0:01:58.356 who you may know from our music show Broken Record, 0:01:58.556 --> 0:02:02.396 which Justin has made happen since the beginning. But now 0:02:02.636 --> 0:02:05.756 Justin has his own gig. He's the creator and host 0:02:05.756 --> 0:02:09.236 of a new podcast called Started from the Bottom. It's 0:02:09.276 --> 0:02:13.396 a show about origin stories, particularly the origin stories of 0:02:13.476 --> 0:02:15.876 men and women of color, how they climbed their way 0:02:15.956 --> 0:02:19.276 up the ladder, the obstacles they overcame along the way. 0:02:19.596 --> 0:02:21.676 And for this episode that I'm about to play for you, 0:02:21.876 --> 0:02:25.556 I turned the tables on Justin and I interviewed him. 0:02:25.716 --> 0:02:27.356 We did it in front of a group of students 0:02:27.356 --> 0:02:30.196 and faculty at MEDGA Evers College on the side of 0:02:30.236 --> 0:02:33.156 the old Ebbotts Field in Brooklyn, New York. As someone 0:02:33.156 --> 0:02:36.036 of West Indian heritage, let me just say how gratified 0:02:36.036 --> 0:02:39.476 I was at the heavy West Indian turnout for this, 0:02:40.076 --> 0:02:42.836 and in good West Indian fashion, they asked some pretty 0:02:42.836 --> 0:02:45.316 good questions at the end too. So here we go 0:02:45.836 --> 0:02:51.476 my conversation with my good friend Justin Richmond. Hello, Hello, 0:02:51.596 --> 0:02:57.396 is this on Check Check a single race? So welcome. 0:02:57.556 --> 0:03:00.356 This is the first time I've ever done anything like this, 0:03:00.916 --> 0:03:03.836 and it is certainly the first live taping of Starter 0:03:03.956 --> 0:03:22.116 from the Bottom. So thank you so much for coming, Malcolm, 0:03:22.116 --> 0:03:24.036 Thank you so much for doing this. Not at all, 0:03:24.076 --> 0:03:26.796 it's my pleasure. Justin. I've long dreamed of being on 0:03:26.836 --> 0:03:32.236 a stage with you. I can't imagine that's true, but 0:03:32.316 --> 0:03:34.476 it's very nice of you to say no. I think, well, 0:03:34.556 --> 0:03:37.916 I hope this is the start of many of these, Justin, 0:03:37.996 --> 0:03:41.756 But I think premise of today's is that I'm interviewing you, right, 0:03:41.916 --> 0:03:44.636 That's not our plan. Yeah, a little. We want to 0:03:44.636 --> 0:03:47.276 get the Justin. We want to get the Justin Richmond 0:03:47.316 --> 0:03:50.116 origin stories. It's a little introduction in me, I guess, yeah, yeah, 0:03:50.236 --> 0:03:52.436 the which I you know, I love these things because 0:03:52.476 --> 0:03:55.996 I've often I'm a firm believer that if you want 0:03:55.996 --> 0:03:58.596 to get to know somebody, even if They've done a 0:03:58.676 --> 0:04:01.956 lifetime of interesting things. If you just do the first 0:04:01.956 --> 0:04:06.956 twenty years, you get most of what you need. Right that. 0:04:07.396 --> 0:04:10.316 It's a surprising how much you can lean from. So 0:04:10.556 --> 0:04:13.996 let's start. Let's do the Justin Richmond analysis. And I 0:04:14.036 --> 0:04:15.916 wanted to start with the thing we have in common. 0:04:16.716 --> 0:04:18.076 Now you might look at us and say, what on 0:04:18.116 --> 0:04:20.156 earth do they have in common? But we do have 0:04:20.156 --> 0:04:23.276 one very significant fact in common, which is we're both 0:04:23.396 --> 0:04:26.436 the product of by racial marriages. Yeah, and I wanted 0:04:26.476 --> 0:04:29.076 to start with that. First of all, you're more obviously 0:04:29.076 --> 0:04:31.916 by racial than me. I don't know how that happened you. 0:04:32.956 --> 0:04:36.836 I'm a little more subtle yours. Your dad would say 0:04:36.836 --> 0:04:40.876 it's his jeans. So you're tell me about your parents. 0:04:40.996 --> 0:04:43.396 Let's start with those two. How did they meet? Justin 0:04:43.516 --> 0:04:46.916 start with that. They met at Compton Community College. So 0:04:46.956 --> 0:04:49.836 he grew up in Compton, and uh, and my mom 0:04:49.916 --> 0:04:51.556 was there for I don't even know why she was there, 0:04:51.556 --> 0:04:54.116 but she was. She was there. She was friends with 0:04:54.276 --> 0:04:57.676 someone there, and so she was there. They met. Where 0:04:57.676 --> 0:05:00.196 did your mom grow up? My mom grew up in 0:05:00.196 --> 0:05:04.556 a city called El Monte, which is by Pasadena. My 0:05:04.636 --> 0:05:07.716 mom grew up on the racetrack or dad was a 0:05:07.796 --> 0:05:10.516 racehorse trainer, so if she we were up on the racetrack. 0:05:11.156 --> 0:05:15.116 And yeah, they're they're very different people even to this day. 0:05:15.156 --> 0:05:17.316 And it might be because they've never seen them together. 0:05:17.556 --> 0:05:19.916 But my kids still cannot wrap their heads around that. 0:05:19.996 --> 0:05:21.636 My parents. It might be like, you know that there's 0:05:21.676 --> 0:05:26.236 any relationship between them, who ever was you know, Uh, 0:05:26.596 --> 0:05:29.756 they were never together. They were never married, but yeah, 0:05:29.876 --> 0:05:31.716 like they liked they just liked each other, you know. 0:05:31.836 --> 0:05:36.036 So how long were they together off and on? About 0:05:36.036 --> 0:05:39.516 five years? Four years? So you have very few memories 0:05:39.516 --> 0:05:42.156 of the two of them, is in a couple, very 0:05:42.156 --> 0:05:44.956 few early on, Like I remember being over at his 0:05:45.036 --> 0:05:47.836 house because I have two half brothers, so early on 0:05:47.876 --> 0:05:50.556 I remember being over there with them, going to Disneyland 0:05:50.556 --> 0:05:54.516 on occasion. Well, yeah, the memories are very sporadic. Early on, 0:05:54.636 --> 0:05:58.796 you know of them, and you're you're raised by your mom, 0:05:59.716 --> 0:06:02.676 raised a bit by both, but primarily by my mom. Yeah, 0:06:02.716 --> 0:06:04.956 And where are you grow in Long Beach? Or yes, 0:06:05.116 --> 0:06:07.516 in Long Beach And then at five, my mom moved 0:06:07.556 --> 0:06:09.836 to the city of Orange, which is in Orange County, 0:06:09.876 --> 0:06:13.956 which is about twenty minutes south of Long Beach. Yeah, yeah, 0:06:13.996 --> 0:06:18.836 what is Orange like Orange? As far as places in 0:06:19.436 --> 0:06:23.116 Orange County go, it's pretty diverse. There's a large Latino 0:06:23.276 --> 0:06:29.676 community there, but aside from the Latino population, it's overwhelmingly white. 0:06:30.436 --> 0:06:32.876 And that was a that was a change from even 0:06:33.036 --> 0:06:35.676 even having white parents, like even having like my mom 0:06:35.756 --> 0:06:37.996 being white, and having that whole side of my family 0:06:38.036 --> 0:06:40.476 be white. I'd never thought of it that way until 0:06:40.476 --> 0:06:42.796 I showed up. You know. She moved there right before 0:06:42.836 --> 0:06:45.116 I started, a month before I started kindergarten. And I 0:06:45.116 --> 0:06:47.436 remember my first day at kindergarten. I rolled up and 0:06:47.476 --> 0:06:49.316 I had a ninety four, so I had a Power 0:06:49.356 --> 0:06:51.556 Ranger shirt on. I thought it was real cool, Power 0:06:51.636 --> 0:06:54.236 Rangers lunchbox. I really thought I was nervous, but I 0:06:54.236 --> 0:06:56.036 thought I was fresh. I thought it was good, right, 0:06:56.556 --> 0:07:01.836 And I'll never forget this kid who was in line 0:07:01.836 --> 0:07:03.556 in front of me, like looked back at me, and 0:07:03.996 --> 0:07:06.676 this is the first time, like again, I'm like, I'm 0:07:06.716 --> 0:07:09.396 not really realizing the differences between us yet. But he 0:07:09.436 --> 0:07:12.076 turns around and looks at me goes, are you poor? 0:07:13.356 --> 0:07:15.836 Are you poor? Yeah? Yeah yeah, And I was like 0:07:16.596 --> 0:07:18.596 like what do you what do you mean? And he's like, 0:07:18.836 --> 0:07:22.236 you look poor. Are you poor? And I was like, what, 0:07:22.556 --> 0:07:24.596 you know, I was just deflated. I didn't know exactly 0:07:24.596 --> 0:07:25.956 what to think about it at the moment. I was. 0:07:26.036 --> 0:07:27.996 I was just deflated just because you know, you're five 0:07:28.076 --> 0:07:29.916 year old, you're going into kindergarten and you're trying to 0:07:30.596 --> 0:07:33.436 We had just moved and I thought it looked good, 0:07:33.476 --> 0:07:36.836 but apparently I looked poor. That's to remember his name, 0:07:36.836 --> 0:07:38.956 and should you tell your mom? Yes, I did that. 0:07:39.076 --> 0:07:42.156 I remember that. I remember I remember going home and 0:07:42.156 --> 0:07:45.516 and talking to my mom and uh yeah. I mean 0:07:45.596 --> 0:07:49.916 that's when I think her hope was that it would 0:07:49.956 --> 0:07:53.276 take a little bit long from for those dynamic for 0:07:53.316 --> 0:07:55.916 that dynamic to set in, right. But that's when we 0:07:56.156 --> 0:07:58.516 we had, like you know, when she started talking to 0:07:58.556 --> 0:08:00.716 me about the fact that I am now at this 0:08:01.236 --> 0:08:04.876 overwhelmingly white place, and many of the people I'm gonna 0:08:04.876 --> 0:08:09.316 be around are likely growing up, if not out now 0:08:09.436 --> 0:08:12.556 racist racist things being said in their household, they're going 0:08:12.596 --> 0:08:17.156 to be parodying those things back at that. So if 0:08:17.196 --> 0:08:21.676 I asked you, in saying middle school to how you 0:08:21.676 --> 0:08:24.356 would describe yourself racially, what would you have said? Black? 0:08:24.396 --> 0:08:27.236 I knew I was black, you just because because of 0:08:27.276 --> 0:08:30.516 my experience because of that experience going to the so 0:08:31.436 --> 0:08:33.436 you know, off, I would say, off and on. Between 0:08:33.516 --> 0:08:37.116 kindergarten and ninth grade, I was going to overwhelmingly white schools, 0:08:37.356 --> 0:08:39.196 and you know, these are places where I would get 0:08:39.236 --> 0:08:41.436 called nigger. You know. So when you getting called nigger, 0:08:42.196 --> 0:08:43.756 you know what you are, you know, and then I 0:08:43.876 --> 0:08:45.436 go talk to my dad about it, go wheah, well 0:08:45.436 --> 0:08:47.156 you are niggas. So but you know that was like 0:08:47.196 --> 0:08:48.876 his way of trying to be like, yeah, you are niggas, 0:08:48.916 --> 0:08:55.036 so yeah, you know. So I definitely knew what I was. 0:08:55.076 --> 0:09:01.316 I knew I was black. And where it got well, 0:09:01.316 --> 0:09:05.116 I see where it got difficult was when probably in 0:09:05.236 --> 0:09:07.996 junior high, when it was teachers who I think sort 0:09:07.996 --> 0:09:11.236 of interacting with me different because of my color, you know, 0:09:11.276 --> 0:09:12.876 like I had. I got in a lot of trouble 0:09:13.676 --> 0:09:16.636 because I grew locks, and I remember they wanted to 0:09:16.716 --> 0:09:18.836 kick me out of school. There was a there was 0:09:18.876 --> 0:09:23.796 a neo Nazi kid named name your name, and all 0:09:23.876 --> 0:09:27.396 these people like on the bulletin board, where are you man? Right? 0:09:27.636 --> 0:09:29.276 And every day with him go you know, it was 0:09:29.356 --> 0:09:31.436 go back to Africa. And it got to the point 0:09:31.436 --> 0:09:36.236 police got involved, you know, and um, he never got 0:09:36.356 --> 0:09:39.476 kicked out of school somehow, but um, but I would 0:09:39.516 --> 0:09:41.476 say the point in junior high as when teachers I 0:09:41.476 --> 0:09:46.196 started getting just weird comments from teachers, and weird nothing 0:09:46.236 --> 0:09:48.316 I did was ever good enough. There's always a perception 0:09:48.356 --> 0:09:50.956 that I was lazy. And that's why when I think 0:09:50.956 --> 0:09:52.676 because I was I was always a smart kid, and 0:09:52.716 --> 0:09:56.316 because my dad played football, because I was so tall, 0:09:56.356 --> 0:09:58.716 I was always tall, the perception was always that I 0:09:58.756 --> 0:10:01.916 was gonna go and be an athlete. But from an 0:10:01.916 --> 0:10:04.756 early age, I realized I wanted to cut against that. 0:10:04.836 --> 0:10:07.156 Like I didn't want okay, cool, Yeah I can I 0:10:07.196 --> 0:10:09.396 can play ball, I can do that. But what I 0:10:09.436 --> 0:10:13.156 realized I really wanted was to show people. Like early on, 0:10:13.236 --> 0:10:17.036 I kind of got this um need to prove people 0:10:17.036 --> 0:10:20.236 wrong in me, and so I felt like I always 0:10:20.236 --> 0:10:23.116 wanted to be I always wanted to be the smartest 0:10:23.116 --> 0:10:25.236 person in the room at that point as a young kid, 0:10:25.796 --> 0:10:28.436 and I didn't always have the confidence that I was, 0:10:28.516 --> 0:10:30.636 but I deep deep down somewhere I wanted to be. 0:10:30.876 --> 0:10:32.796 And by the time I got to junior high and 0:10:32.796 --> 0:10:36.196 the teachers were sort of I had these these odd interactions. 0:10:36.276 --> 0:10:38.676 I think that's when I started to That's when my 0:10:38.676 --> 0:10:41.236 my interest in education started to wane and my I 0:10:41.236 --> 0:10:44.556 would say, my pride and myself started to win. How 0:10:44.556 --> 0:10:49.516 many black teachers did you have in your public school experience? Zero? Zero? 0:10:50.756 --> 0:10:53.876 Taking something to do with it, I think that's a 0:10:53.916 --> 0:10:57.356 big thing. Has a big part to do with that. Absolutely, Yeah, absolutely, 0:10:57.356 --> 0:11:00.156 you got it. And that's the premise of my show. 0:11:00.196 --> 0:11:04.076 If you're not around, if you're not around people who 0:11:04.116 --> 0:11:08.156 look like you, who are successful, you know, and my dad, 0:11:08.276 --> 0:11:09.716 God bless them, you know, who was in the NFL 0:11:09.756 --> 0:11:11.996 so to degree was a success. But my dad and 0:11:12.036 --> 0:11:14.716 I love him, but you know, he also like has 0:11:14.756 --> 0:11:17.796 a very small way of thinking, you know, and so 0:11:17.916 --> 0:11:22.756 I never really felt like I had someone what do 0:11:22.796 --> 0:11:26.916 you mean by a small way of thinking? For him, 0:11:26.956 --> 0:11:28.956 it was always like, yeah, just go be a cop, 0:11:29.036 --> 0:11:30.396 you know, like that's sure money. Like you can go 0:11:30.436 --> 0:11:32.756 be a cop. You can get one hundred grand a 0:11:32.836 --> 0:11:35.356 year with over time, you can make like one twenty. 0:11:35.396 --> 0:11:36.916 Like what are you doing with this college thing? What 0:11:36.916 --> 0:11:38.436 are you doing with school? You know, like they didn't 0:11:38.596 --> 0:11:43.436 he couldn't get that I wanted to be that. I 0:11:43.476 --> 0:11:45.316 wanted to be an educated brother. You know. He couldn't 0:11:45.316 --> 0:11:47.756 get it, I'd say, and a lot of my family didn't. 0:11:50.636 --> 0:11:52.636 It's difficult to talk about because I like, in so 0:11:52.676 --> 0:11:55.476 many ways they were successful, you know, but at the 0:11:55.516 --> 0:11:58.316 same time, I knew there was a level of life 0:11:58.316 --> 0:12:00.996 that I wanted to achieve that no one in my 0:12:01.076 --> 0:12:04.076 family had achieved. You know, my dad wanted me to 0:12:04.156 --> 0:12:06.636 go be a cop because he's like, that's guaranteed income, 0:12:06.716 --> 0:12:09.716 you can and you can do it. But I just 0:12:09.756 --> 0:12:11.996 had other aspirations. So it was a weird thing between 0:12:13.596 --> 0:12:18.396 growing up in a white world that didn't necessarily believe 0:12:18.396 --> 0:12:20.476 in me and growing up in you know, my black 0:12:20.516 --> 0:12:22.276 family and a black world that kind of had a 0:12:22.316 --> 0:12:25.316 way of thinking that wasn't They didn't understand what I 0:12:25.356 --> 0:12:29.636 was trying to do. Yeah, yeah, your dad's not He's 0:12:29.676 --> 0:12:33.596 not one hundred percent wrong being a police officer. I'm 0:12:33.636 --> 0:12:35.916 not saying you should have done it. I'm just saying, 0:12:36.916 --> 0:12:41.156 from his position being an LAPD officer, assuming that's what 0:12:41.196 --> 0:12:44.556 he's talking about, that is a good job. It's a 0:12:44.596 --> 0:12:46.836 great job. I mean in terms of like if you 0:12:46.876 --> 0:12:48.996 look at just like income and like what you could 0:12:48.996 --> 0:12:51.196 provide for your family, Like, it's a great job. But 0:12:51.276 --> 0:12:54.236 it's the means of there's all an entire generation of 0:12:54.316 --> 0:12:56.756 largely black men who grew up in LA for whom 0:12:57.476 --> 0:13:00.916 the LAPD was the stepping stone. I mean, you got 0:13:00.956 --> 0:13:02.716 a job in the lapd and then your kids got 0:13:02.716 --> 0:13:04.836 to go to college. I mean that was like he's 0:13:04.876 --> 0:13:07.276 reflecting something that was real, right, No, it was a 0:13:07.316 --> 0:13:09.636 real thing, and I don't at the time, I was 0:13:09.756 --> 0:13:11.876 very I was always upset when you bring it up. 0:13:11.916 --> 0:13:15.276 You know, now I understand why he did. But you know, 0:13:15.276 --> 0:13:19.116 when you have a dream and something you want to accomplish, 0:13:19.316 --> 0:13:23.236 hearing things like that, don't and still confidence in you. 0:13:23.236 --> 0:13:24.756 Because I always have to hear these quess like well, 0:13:24.796 --> 0:13:26.636 what a school doesn't work out? It's like, well, what 0:13:26.636 --> 0:13:28.356 do you mean? Was like, you know what, Like by 0:13:28.356 --> 0:13:30.396 the time I get to college and I'm meeting people, 0:13:30.396 --> 0:13:32.436 I'm like, I can very much tell that this isn't 0:13:32.476 --> 0:13:34.596 their experience that they had, like what a school doesn't 0:13:34.596 --> 0:13:37.556 work out? It was this expected? You know? Is it 0:13:37.716 --> 0:13:41.156 your dad? Does he not think you're smart enough for college? 0:13:41.236 --> 0:13:44.036 Or does he think the obstacles facing a young black 0:13:44.076 --> 0:13:48.076 man are two high? What's his what's his theory? I 0:13:48.076 --> 0:13:49.716 don't know my dad thinks he's the smartest man in 0:13:49.756 --> 0:13:52.596 the world, so and I think based he also thinks 0:13:52.636 --> 0:13:55.756 he has the greatest green pool in the world, so 0:13:54.316 --> 0:13:57.996 I think so. I think based on that he knew 0:13:58.036 --> 0:14:00.996 I was very smart. That was his belief at least. 0:14:01.076 --> 0:14:03.196 But with my dad, I think it very much had 0:14:03.236 --> 0:14:05.516 to do again with like his perception of what was 0:14:05.556 --> 0:14:07.596 possible in the world. You know, he grew up in 0:14:07.596 --> 0:14:09.756 a place called You dream Of Village and which was 0:14:09.796 --> 0:14:15.036 a housing project that closed down because the soil was toxic. 0:14:15.596 --> 0:14:16.836 Like they didn't know it at the time, but the 0:14:16.876 --> 0:14:19.116 soil was toxic. So people were getting sick and cancer 0:14:19.196 --> 0:14:23.836 and dying, babies being born deformed. And I think it 0:14:23.876 --> 0:14:25.796 was also a sense of maybe his dreams were limited 0:14:25.836 --> 0:14:27.756 to or not his dreams were big, but I would 0:14:27.796 --> 0:14:31.276 say his dreams were at some point, I say his 0:14:31.356 --> 0:14:32.996 dreams were crushed as well. You know, my dad did 0:14:32.996 --> 0:14:35.076 get kicked out of the NFL. The story as it's 0:14:35.076 --> 0:14:37.636 been told to me, So my dad got drafted by 0:14:37.636 --> 0:14:40.396 the Colts and eighty four, I want to say eighty five, 0:14:41.476 --> 0:14:44.316 and the team captain, a white dude, called my grandmother 0:14:44.356 --> 0:14:49.076 a nigger, and so my dad whipped his ass. They 0:14:49.476 --> 0:14:51.516 had it, he got reprimanded, that had a team dinner. 0:14:52.156 --> 0:14:55.396 It happened again. My dad whipped his ass and he 0:14:55.436 --> 0:14:58.116 was kicked off the team. Yeah. And I think when 0:14:58.156 --> 0:15:01.676 that is, when that's what happens to your dream, I 0:15:01.716 --> 0:15:03.916 think you start to worry in some way or was 0:15:03.956 --> 0:15:07.476 it his dream? Absolutely? Yeah, yeah. Does he still have 0:15:07.556 --> 0:15:12.236 regrets today? I'm sure he does. I don't think he 0:15:12.276 --> 0:15:16.556 regrets that, like, I don't think he regrets open the 0:15:16.556 --> 0:15:20.236 team captain's ass or anything, but um, yeah, I think 0:15:20.236 --> 0:15:23.436 he wishes it turned out different. Absolutely, you know. Yeah. 0:15:24.196 --> 0:15:28.316 Does he understand what you're doing now? Yeah? Yeah, you 0:15:28.316 --> 0:15:31.756 know the first time, the first time he really got it. Well, 0:15:31.796 --> 0:15:33.476 he got it when I went to when I got 0:15:33.516 --> 0:15:36.516 into Berkeley, he was kind of he was shocked. I 0:15:36.636 --> 0:15:40.596 was shocked. My whole family was shocked. I couldn't believe 0:15:40.596 --> 0:15:43.996 it too, so much so that I remember I drove up. 0:15:44.676 --> 0:15:47.236 I drove up, I wrote the counselor. I was like, listen, 0:15:47.476 --> 0:15:49.156 like I got some I gotta I gotta talk to you. 0:15:49.156 --> 0:15:50.796 I didn't want to do it over email. I didn't 0:15:50.796 --> 0:15:52.436 want to do it over phone, Like I needed to 0:15:52.436 --> 0:15:53.756 look this lady in the eye. So I was like, hey, 0:15:53.756 --> 0:15:55.196 can I meet you? And she's like, yeah, sure, sure 0:15:55.196 --> 0:15:57.356 to come down this date this time drove up to 0:15:57.396 --> 0:16:00.316 Berkeley and yes I would. I was like, look, I 0:16:00.596 --> 0:16:07.676 got this deferred a mission. This is real. Yeah, you're 0:16:07.716 --> 0:16:10.156 living in Orange County at the time. I'm living in 0:16:10.116 --> 0:16:15.156 the Laya. Yeah. So you drove six hours yeah to Berkeley, yes, 0:16:15.316 --> 0:16:19.236 six seven eight to ask official of Berkeley whether your 0:16:19.276 --> 0:16:21.836 acceptance that it was real. I came that far. I 0:16:21.876 --> 0:16:24.836 wasn't gonna like and then also like trying to figure 0:16:24.836 --> 0:16:26.476 out how to run a place up there and pay 0:16:26.516 --> 0:16:29.716 admission just to not so I drove up there, and 0:16:29.796 --> 0:16:32.516 you know, so I'm is this real? And she goes, yes, 0:16:32.516 --> 0:16:34.036 this is real. So I goes, so I can start 0:16:34.316 --> 0:16:39.996 January fifteen, Yes you can as a philosophy major. Yes, okay, 0:16:40.636 --> 0:16:42.436 and I can switch my major if I want once 0:16:42.476 --> 0:16:46.676 I get in. Yes, right, you know. And then and 0:16:46.716 --> 0:16:48.436 then and I'm kind of trying to work up to 0:16:48.556 --> 0:16:52.036 also like so I asked, I say, listen, I'm gonna 0:16:52.076 --> 0:16:54.756 be honest with you, Okay, Like I don't have a 0:16:54.836 --> 0:16:58.476 high school diploma, I don't have a GED, I don't 0:16:58.516 --> 0:17:01.956 have an equivalency. So you should like, so based on 0:17:01.956 --> 0:17:03.316 that now you say already said this was real, but 0:17:03.356 --> 0:17:05.956 based on it now with this new information, based on that, 0:17:06.556 --> 0:17:08.356 is this really? Is this? Can I really come here? 0:17:08.436 --> 0:17:11.316 We skip the st Yeah. The step we skipped was 0:17:11.396 --> 0:17:14.316 you didn't graduate from high school? No, I left at fourteen? 0:17:14.956 --> 0:17:17.516 At fourteen? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I left at fourteen. Yeah. 0:17:17.556 --> 0:17:20.156 I also didn't graduate from high school. But that's because 0:17:20.236 --> 0:17:23.276 my mom called the principle and said, Malcolm won't be 0:17:23.316 --> 0:17:27.196 coming in. He's more productive at home. That was Everyone 0:17:27.236 --> 0:17:29.396 was like, okay, fine, Like that's you know, that's a 0:17:29.516 --> 0:17:31.076 very that's the world I grew up, and it was 0:17:31.116 --> 0:17:34.076 a forgiving, understanding, do what you want kind of world. 0:17:34.636 --> 0:17:41.756 Um wait, you left high school at fourteen to do what? Yeah? 0:17:42.036 --> 0:17:46.436 Nothing good? Uh yeah, nothing good. I would say I 0:17:46.476 --> 0:17:48.276 was pretty beat down by that point, you know, like 0:17:48.356 --> 0:17:52.196 confidence wise, I didn't know what I was doing. So yeah, 0:17:52.196 --> 0:17:57.956 I left and I was I was just doing my 0:17:57.996 --> 0:18:00.756 own thing. What's your mom doing when you're doing this? 0:18:00.796 --> 0:18:03.036 So here's so what happened was so like basically my 0:18:03.036 --> 0:18:05.396 freshman year of high school, I was so rock bottom 0:18:05.396 --> 0:18:07.516 with my confidence, Like I had basically like a zero 0:18:07.676 --> 0:18:10.516 point something GPA. I had like no GPAs. It was 0:18:10.516 --> 0:18:13.756 literally zero points something and the only the highest grade 0:18:13.756 --> 0:18:16.356 I got was I thought it was a C, but 0:18:16.396 --> 0:18:17.596 it turns out it was a D. I got a 0:18:17.676 --> 0:18:20.516 D in journalism. Yeah, and the teacher pull me aside. 0:18:20.556 --> 0:18:23.236 He's like, justin, you're too smart to fail. You deserve 0:18:23.276 --> 0:18:24.356 a F. I'm not gonna give you a F. I'm 0:18:24.356 --> 0:18:25.676 gonna give you a D. I was like, oh, thank you, 0:18:25.716 --> 0:18:27.396 mister Muller. But it was like at zero point something. 0:18:27.396 --> 0:18:29.396 So they said you're gonna have to go to continuation school, 0:18:29.796 --> 0:18:32.356 which was just like a school like, you know, for 0:18:32.356 --> 0:18:35.356 for fuck ups. And my mom was like, yeah, you're 0:18:35.396 --> 0:18:36.756 not a fuck up, so you're not gonna You're not 0:18:36.756 --> 0:18:40.636 gonna go there. I go, okay. She's like, I'm just 0:18:40.636 --> 0:18:45.396 gonna have you stay home, and uh this it sounds crazy, 0:18:45.436 --> 0:18:47.276 but I gotta give her credit because it didn't work 0:18:47.316 --> 0:18:49.556 for a bit, but then it really worked. Um, She's like, 0:18:49.556 --> 0:18:51.196 I'm just gonna stay home. You're gonna read the paper 0:18:51.196 --> 0:18:53.796 every day while I'm at work. I'm gonna come home. 0:18:53.876 --> 0:18:56.156 You're gonna have a little report on a couple of 0:18:56.236 --> 0:19:01.476 items you read. And of course, you know for the longest, 0:19:01.516 --> 0:19:04.916 Like I just took advantage. I didn't do it, you know, 0:19:04.996 --> 0:19:07.276 Like I just didn't. She didn't want me being with 0:19:07.396 --> 0:19:09.556 fuck ups because she did she already could see I 0:19:09.596 --> 0:19:11.756 think that my confidence was shot and that it was 0:19:11.756 --> 0:19:14.156 just gonna be worse, so she pulled me out. I 0:19:14.196 --> 0:19:19.516 took advantage of it. I didn't do much until I 0:19:19.596 --> 0:19:24.436 was like almost sixteen. Common story, I feel like for 0:19:24.436 --> 0:19:26.516 a lot of people. I got a copy of the 0:19:26.556 --> 0:19:33.356 autobiography of Malcolm X, and it really reignited my ambition. 0:19:34.156 --> 0:19:37.236 So then at that point, I enroll in community college 0:19:37.276 --> 0:19:39.636 because I didn't really want to deal with like trying 0:19:39.676 --> 0:19:42.156 to start over from my freshman year of high school. 0:19:42.956 --> 0:19:44.676 So I rolled in community college and just did that 0:19:44.716 --> 0:19:47.356 for about four or five years and until I could transfer. 0:19:47.356 --> 0:19:49.596 I transference. I started that at like just before I 0:19:49.636 --> 0:19:52.316 turned sixteen, and I transferred to Berkeley at twenty one. 0:19:52.956 --> 0:19:56.236 Let me see, we're gonna take a quick break. But 0:19:56.316 --> 0:19:58.596 when we come back, Malcolm and I get into what 0:19:58.676 --> 0:20:01.036 it was like being a black student at you see, Berkeley, 0:20:01.436 --> 0:20:04.036 and I share a story with them about randomly meeting 0:20:04.196 --> 0:20:16.036 my other mentor Quincy Jones and Havana Cuba so you 0:20:16.236 --> 0:20:21.716 have a kind of loss of confidence and do you 0:20:21.756 --> 0:20:26.876 get it back in Berkeley? At Berkeley, Yeah, Gabrielle Williams 0:20:26.916 --> 0:20:30.636 right here. I met Gabrielle at Berkeley. She was doing 0:20:30.636 --> 0:20:33.236 her PhD. We met at the Black Student Lounge or 0:20:33.396 --> 0:20:37.036 was that the that was like her her student job thing, 0:20:37.476 --> 0:20:38.956 and she was listening to music and I heard so 0:20:38.996 --> 0:20:42.636 we connected, and um, there was a professor there by 0:20:42.636 --> 0:20:45.076 the name of Ricky Vincent. He was like the pre 0:20:45.156 --> 0:20:49.156 eminent funk music scholar and was writing in a book 0:20:49.156 --> 0:20:51.956 on the Black Panthers. And I had a strong interest 0:20:51.956 --> 0:20:54.676 in the Panthers. So like between like Gabrielle and Ricky 0:20:54.796 --> 0:20:58.876 Vincent and and all these other black folk that looked 0:20:58.876 --> 0:21:00.956 like me that I could relate to. And for Gabrielle 0:21:00.996 --> 0:21:03.476 coming from from La southn California, like there was just 0:21:03.516 --> 0:21:07.516 a lot in common. It definitely a hundred percent helped me. 0:21:07.556 --> 0:21:10.476 But but she also helped me to a lot because 0:21:10.476 --> 0:21:13.916 there's many times I've called Gabrielle, including when I took 0:21:13.956 --> 0:21:17.196 this job at Pushkin, like, I really do this, it's 0:21:17.396 --> 0:21:19.876 a smart move, and she'll have to talk, you know. 0:21:19.916 --> 0:21:22.116 When I got into grad school, man, I really take 0:21:22.116 --> 0:21:23.876