WEBVTT - CZM Rewind: The Andrew Tate Story (Part 1 & 2)

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<v Speaker 1>Also media.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey everybody, Robert here. First off, we are doing a

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<v Speaker 2>rewind week because I've written two new Andrew Tait episodes,

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<v Speaker 2>but also myrith day came recently. We took some time off,

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<v Speaker 2>so we're gonna take this week to replay the first

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<v Speaker 2>fourth Tait episodes with ad breaks and stuff removed. I

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<v Speaker 2>also wanted to tell you Ed Zitron is in the

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<v Speaker 2>running for a webby for his show Better Offline, as

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<v Speaker 2>is Molly Conger for Weird Little Guys. Please go to

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<v Speaker 2>the Webbies vote for them. You can find the links

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<v Speaker 2>in the show notes along with their other links. You

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<v Speaker 2>can also just google ed Zitron, Webbies, Molly Conger Webbys

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<v Speaker 2>and you will find them. Please do vote for them.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll be back next week with two brand new episodes

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<v Speaker 2>on what Tait has been up to over the last

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<v Speaker 2>couple of years and a bunch of really fucked up

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<v Speaker 2>information that's come up. So please enjoy these episodes the

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<v Speaker 2>reruns with less ads, and go vote in the Webbies.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to him, motherfuckers. I'm Robert Eva. This is Behind

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<v Speaker 2>the Bastards, a podcast that has just encountered one of

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<v Speaker 2>the worst disasters of its career, So we'll get into

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<v Speaker 2>this more later. This is supposed to be and he's

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<v Speaker 2>going to be the first of several episodes about Andrew

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<v Speaker 2>Tait and the mythopoetic Men's movement that led to his

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<v Speaker 2>rise to fame and influence among a generation of young men.

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<v Speaker 2>We started recording this episode just a few hours ago

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<v Speaker 2>with the wonderful April Clark and Grace Freud of the

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<v Speaker 2>Girl God podcast they have anyway, we recorded a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit with them, and then I had a minor emergency

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<v Speaker 2>which has taken me out of the house for a while.

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<v Speaker 2>Things are okay, you don't need to flip out on

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<v Speaker 2>Reddit or whatever, but it was a problem and we

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<v Speaker 2>were not able to record with them. To finish recording

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<v Speaker 2>with them, and because of the holiday, we have no backlog.

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<v Speaker 2>So in order to get this episode done and ready

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<v Speaker 2>for our editor asap, Sophie is going to be my

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<v Speaker 2>guest today along with Ea, our editor, and we will

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<v Speaker 2>get this out as soon as possible because otherwise we

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<v Speaker 2>will not have a show. And we are contractually obligated

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<v Speaker 2>to provide you with entertainment every single week until the

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<v Speaker 2>heat death of the Universe. But I do want to

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<v Speaker 2>shout out April and Grace, who are wonderful who came

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<v Speaker 2>on and booked time for us, and I'm sorry that

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<v Speaker 2>things got messed up. We will have them back on

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<v Speaker 2>the pod at some point in the near future, and

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to let people know that there is They

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<v Speaker 2>have an upcoming show at JFO Vancouver on February twenty fifth,

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<v Speaker 2>and people can get tickets for that show at Girlgodshow

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<v Speaker 2>dot com. You can also check out their podcast just

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<v Speaker 2>type girl God and any of the things that have podcasts,

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<v Speaker 2>and you can listen to their awesome show. Thank you

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<v Speaker 2>so much again, April and Grace. I'm sorry that there

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<v Speaker 2>was a minor calamity. Now, welcome to the pod, Sophie

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<v Speaker 2>and Ian. How are y'all.

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<v Speaker 1>Doing so well? So on Ian night in Johnson, by

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<v Speaker 1>the way, he edits a lot of our shows, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's also uh one half of Gladiator with fellow fellow

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<v Speaker 1>editor DJ Danel. All right, and we do have the

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<v Speaker 1>full Gladiator on staff, which I like to bring up

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<v Speaker 1>as much as possible.

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<v Speaker 2>Mm hmmm.

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<v Speaker 3>I appreciate the love. And yeah, you know it's Friday.

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<v Speaker 3>Ready for the weekend. Let's talk some Tate. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>let's let's do it.

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<v Speaker 1>Friday, get into it Friday, but also almost Saturday.

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<v Speaker 4>Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>And Ian is currently in his closet.

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<v Speaker 2>And we we may start drinking in the in the

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<v Speaker 2>near future.

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<v Speaker 1>It might need to happen. Yeah, let's do it, all right, Robert.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, Ian, I actually have you been on just

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<v Speaker 2>as one of our podcasts before you you have known

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<v Speaker 2>this first? Uh? Well, you know, Ian, people should know

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<v Speaker 2>about you again. You're you're one half of Gladiator. You

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<v Speaker 2>are a longtime friend of our other editor, DJ Danel.

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<v Speaker 2>You are a legendary podcast editor. And you had absolutely

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<v Speaker 2>no involvement in the July sixteenth plane crash that cost

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<v Speaker 2>John F. Kennedy Junior his life off the Massachusetts coast.

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<v Speaker 2>No involvement at all. No know why people, Yeah, don't

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<v Speaker 2>bring it up. We had nothing to do with it.

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<v Speaker 1>Why are you talking about that?

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<v Speaker 2>I just to let people know Ian had nothing to

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<v Speaker 2>do with it. Ian, Sophie, What do y'all know about

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<v Speaker 2>Andrew Tait?

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<v Speaker 3>So my limited knowledge of him is he's a I believe,

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<v Speaker 3>a former MMA fighter who I don't know how he

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<v Speaker 3>made a lot of money, but it seems like he

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<v Speaker 3>has a lot of money from what he've seen on

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<v Speaker 3>the internet.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll be talking about how Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>And he's into a lot of misogynistic men rights kind

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<v Speaker 3>of stuff. And he got thoroughly destroyed online by Greta,

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<v Speaker 3>So I do remember that, and I think he's in

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<v Speaker 3>jail now.

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<v Speaker 2>He is in jail now, unrelated to the Greta stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a little bit of a confusion about that,

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<v Speaker 2>but yes, he is in jail for sex trafficking in Romania. Sophie,

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<v Speaker 2>Is that more or less your understanding of the guy?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he fucking sucks.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he does. Indeed, he does. Indeed fucking suck. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 2>he's also kind of worth studying in detail because he's

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<v Speaker 2>managed to do something with social media that I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think anyone else has ever managed the same degree of

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<v Speaker 2>success he has. He's he's smart in one very specific way.

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<v Speaker 2>Even though he also did a bunch of dumb things

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<v Speaker 2>and some really dumb crimes that hopefully have ruined his life.

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<v Speaker 2>He was he was smart, and one in a way

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<v Speaker 2>that has allowed him to become dangerously influential to an

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<v Speaker 2>entire generation of teenage boys, in a way that like

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<v Speaker 2>no one on earth has managed quite yet. Donald Trump

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<v Speaker 2>is really the only other guy that I might put

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<v Speaker 2>next to Tate in that kind and I think Tit

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<v Speaker 2>has a wider appeal among gen Z teens and tweens

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<v Speaker 2>than certainly Trump.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's interesting to see the spaces where Tate's content show.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're going to be talking about all that. I

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<v Speaker 2>am one of the things when I started looking into

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<v Speaker 2>this guy, there's a ton of articles about because he

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<v Speaker 2>blew up kind of mid twenty twenty one up until

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<v Speaker 2>you know the arrest a couple of weeks ago, there's

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<v Speaker 2>not profile articles on him that like go into detail

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<v Speaker 2>about his background, in his past and his entire rise

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<v Speaker 2>to power. You'll generally the best articles you'll find in

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<v Speaker 2>places like BuzzFeed or I think we have a couple

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<v Speaker 2>from like The Guardian. They'll like summarize his backstory in

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<v Speaker 2>two or three paragraphs. I wanted to get into who

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<v Speaker 2>this guy is and where he came from, because he

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<v Speaker 2>kind of pops out of nowhere if you don't follow that.

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<v Speaker 2>I think this is the first time anyone's really done that,

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<v Speaker 2>So I think this will be valuable for that. But

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<v Speaker 2>I want to start by laying out why we have

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<v Speaker 2>to take Tit seriously and kind of explain the scale

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<v Speaker 2>of sort of his influence. I am not exaggerating when

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<v Speaker 2>I say that he is maybe the most influential single

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<v Speaker 2>person on teen pre teen mails in the US and

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<v Speaker 2>the UK and some other parts of the West than

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<v Speaker 2>anyone else on planet Earth. In fall of twenty twenty two,

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<v Speaker 2>financial services company Piper Sandler released a survey of fourteen

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<v Speaker 2>five hundred US teens taken between August and September of

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<v Speaker 2>that year. Tate was the number one influencer on the

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<v Speaker 2>list in terms of popularity. He beat Kanye West, he

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<v Speaker 2>beat mister Beast, he beat Dwayne the Rock Johnson, all.

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<v Speaker 1>Of them, not Beast.

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<v Speaker 2>I yeah, I don't know who mister Beast is, but

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<v Speaker 2>he's he's a YouTuber. Yeah, he's a YouTuber. I know

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<v Speaker 2>Elon Musk joked about giving him control of Twitter or

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<v Speaker 2>he asked whatever. I don't know anything about him. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>sure you're fine, mister Beast, or he's horrible.

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<v Speaker 1>It is horrible to say anybody who's that famous on YouTube.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a little bit like, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>No, good people get famous on YouTube, which is what

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<v Speaker 2>I text our friend Cody Johnston every single day when

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<v Speaker 2>he releases a new YouTube video. Anyway, the Andrew Tait

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<v Speaker 2>hashtag on TikTok has received more than ten billion views

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<v Speaker 2>over the course of twenty twenty two alone, which is

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<v Speaker 2>fucking nuts. That is in that is insane, that is

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<v Speaker 2>like incomprehensibly viral. He was Also, he will always claim

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<v Speaker 2>that he's like the most Googled person on Earth. I

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<v Speaker 2>looked into what he actually is. That's not quite it.

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<v Speaker 2>He is the he is the number one when you

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<v Speaker 2>type in who is into Google? Who is Andrew Tait

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<v Speaker 2>is the number one who is question asked of Google

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty twenty two, which is not the same as

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<v Speaker 2>being the most google person on Earth, although he is

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<v Speaker 2>one of the most google people on Earth. I found

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of lists of that, and he's often at

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<v Speaker 2>like number eight, someplace closer to like ten, but like

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<v Speaker 2>he's incredibly famous.

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<v Speaker 1>I just tested that and it isn't fact true.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, the top ten most Google person on the planet

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<v Speaker 3>is that's your that's that's a lot of people.

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<v Speaker 2>That is a fuckload of people. And and in some

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<v Speaker 2>counts he's like beating Donald Trump, which again Trump was

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<v Speaker 2>the literal president. And it's interesting because his career you

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<v Speaker 2>can compare him to a guy like Joe Rogan right

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<v Speaker 2>Joe his career, there's nothing that people like. Wonder why

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<v Speaker 2>he's popular, but there's no mystery as to how he

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<v Speaker 2>became popular. He's got a very he's been consistently. The

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<v Speaker 2>trajector is, yeah, very very consistent guy, constantly in the limelight,

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<v Speaker 2>constantly doing stuff. Not hard to see where he came from.

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<v Speaker 2>Tate is a kickboxer for a while and then kind

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<v Speaker 2>of drops off, is just sort of a guy on

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<v Speaker 2>Instagram and then is suddenly the most famous influencer on

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<v Speaker 2>the planet, seemingly overnight. And this is not an accident.

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<v Speaker 2>This isn't also something He didn't just get surprised because

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<v Speaker 2>something of has happened to go viral. This was the

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<v Speaker 2>result of a tactic I haven't seen anyone else use,

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<v Speaker 2>or certainly not to the degree of success that Tate used.

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<v Speaker 2>And the tactic that he unleashed not only made him

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<v Speaker 2>as popular, but it made him popular enough that you

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<v Speaker 2>can find articles about schools in the US and the

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<v Speaker 2>UK holding seminars for young male students and for teachers

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<v Speaker 2>to try to talk about de radicalizing kids who have

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<v Speaker 2>got to have fallen under Tate's spell when I posted

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<v Speaker 2>a comment about him during his spat with Tunberg, just

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<v Speaker 2>because I was frustrated at the degree I had not

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<v Speaker 2>with Greta's response to him, which I thought was totally fair,

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<v Speaker 2>but with like people kind of cheering it on as

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<v Speaker 2>if he'd been beaten by it, where my concern was like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>the attention historically has just kind of made him more popular.

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<v Speaker 2>And there were a bunch of comments in that post

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<v Speaker 2>I made by teachers who were like, I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>people understand how popular he is with like thirteen, fourteen,

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<v Speaker 2>fifteen year old boys. I talk to kids every day

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<v Speaker 2>who worship the guy, and I've never seen anything like it.

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<v Speaker 3>A lot of my really good friends Jack This is

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<v Speaker 3>actually a few weeks ago, we were hanging out and

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<v Speaker 3>he was like kind of joking but also serious. He

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<v Speaker 3>was like, I know, I'm like, it would be scary

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<v Speaker 3>to be a thirteen year old boy right now because

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<v Speaker 3>of the inundation of this kind of stuff that you're

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<v Speaker 3>seeing all day every day. And he was like, I'm

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<v Speaker 3>not gonna lie. If I was thirteen or fourteen and

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<v Speaker 3>didn't know better, I could probably fall for a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of this stuff. It's like I could imagine being that

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<v Speaker 3>age right now and just being flooded with that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think about that sort of thing in a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of I'll talk about kind of there's elements of

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<v Speaker 2>Tate's pitch that I think might have worked on me

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<v Speaker 2>when I was seventeen eighteen years old. Particularly, A big

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<v Speaker 2>part of it is like working a shit job that

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<v Speaker 2>you hate for the entirety of your youth is bullshit,

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<v Speaker 2>which it is, like, it's a terrible way to spend

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<v Speaker 2>a life doing the thing you hate forever. And if

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<v Speaker 2>you kind of if that's the hook you're leading with,

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<v Speaker 2>rather than what a lot of male influencers lead in with,

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<v Speaker 2>which is like, here's how to pick up chicks. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>that's an interesting spin that he's put. We get it.

0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:43.160
<v Speaker 2>We'll get more into his pitch and like, what about

0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.080
<v Speaker 2>it is not new? And what about it is new?

0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:48.880
<v Speaker 2>But I wanted to I want to start by kind

0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:53.040
<v Speaker 2>of explaining who tilled the soil that Tate grew up in.

0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:54.920
<v Speaker 2>And to do that we have to travel back in

0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.880
<v Speaker 2>time to the nineteen nineties and the work of the

0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:02.880
<v Speaker 2>first real modern masculinity.

0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:03.720
<v Speaker 1>Guru in U history.

0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:06.320
<v Speaker 2>Now we've talked about guys like Bernard McFadden in the

0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:08.439
<v Speaker 2>past who had elements of that where he's big into

0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:10.960
<v Speaker 2>physical culture and getting buff and he talks about like,

0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:16.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, how modernity is making men weak. But the

0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:20.319
<v Speaker 2>Robert Bli is the guy who Jordan Peterson is cutting

0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:22.240
<v Speaker 2>his image, and so do Degree is a guy like

0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:24.840
<v Speaker 2>Andrew Tait. He is the first guy to kind of

0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:29.520
<v Speaker 2>bring both academic rigor and also this kind of focus

0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:34.640
<v Speaker 2>on the damage capitalism has done to masculinity into this

0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:38.120
<v Speaker 2>kind of it's become the men's rights movements, it's become

0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:40.520
<v Speaker 2>the pickup artist community. That's not what it was called

0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:43.679
<v Speaker 2>at the time. But yeah, Robert Elwood Bli is the

0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:45.320
<v Speaker 2>name of the guy who kind of kicked all of

0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.400
<v Speaker 2>this off. And he's not the dude you'd think he was.

0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.000
<v Speaker 2>He's an American poet. By some accounts, he's one of

0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:54.000
<v Speaker 2>the most influential poets in American history. And he was

0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:58.800
<v Speaker 2>born on December twenty third, nineteen twenty six, in Minnesota. Initially,

0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.440
<v Speaker 2>Bli seemed to be on certainly not the path that

0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.640
<v Speaker 2>he wound up on. He goes to Harvard University, he

0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.560
<v Speaker 2>studies at the Iowa Writers Workshop. He receives a full

0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.960
<v Speaker 2>Fulbright scholarship to go to Norway and translate Norwegian poetry

0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.320
<v Speaker 2>into English. And during this time he also gets connected

0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:19.920
<v Speaker 2>to these great poets who are not Westerners, like Pablo

0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.360
<v Speaker 2>Naruta and Rumi, and they influence his understanding of art

0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.240
<v Speaker 2>and the myths that underlie it. And it also leads

0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.640
<v Speaker 2>him to feel that like modern contemporary American poetry is

0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:32.080
<v Speaker 2>kind of hollow and lacks a connection to this kind

0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:34.800
<v Speaker 2>of deeper mythology that he sees in some of these

0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.800
<v Speaker 2>Eastern poets and some of these poets from other parts

0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:39.480
<v Speaker 2>of the world that aren't the United States that he

0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:41.760
<v Speaker 2>feels are making a deeper connection to things.

0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.760
<v Speaker 1>This pinion just a personal preference, But I find the

0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:47.480
<v Speaker 1>Iowa's Writer's Workshop to be a red flag.

0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, wait wait, I don't know much about it.

0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:51.520
<v Speaker 2>Tell me why is this?

0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:53.720
<v Speaker 1>No, it's just it's just one of those things that

0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:58.120
<v Speaker 1>gets uh overused in TV as like, oh, I need

0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:00.240
<v Speaker 1>to go to this thing. It's like it has like

0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:05.880
<v Speaker 1>a a weird, weird elitism to it that uh yeah.

0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:07.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean that. I feel that way about Harvard too.

0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's a lot of weird lead elitism. Red flags,

0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:14.960
<v Speaker 1>where I'm like, uh, but yeah, hearing wearing Harvard University

0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:19.560
<v Speaker 1>followed by Iowa Writers Workshop is usually not the best.

0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.040
<v Speaker 1>Oh and then and then there's the full yeah, full

0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.480
<v Speaker 1>bright grant, so it's you know, yeah, yeah.

0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:29.960
<v Speaker 2>Fact Iowa Writers Workshop. Sophie says, go to hell fuck off.

0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.520
<v Speaker 2>Apparently that's right, motherfuckers. I don't know much about the

0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:37.960
<v Speaker 2>Iowa Writers' Workshop, but that's his background. And again this

0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.440
<v Speaker 2>is also he's coming. He's doing this at an earlier time.

0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:44.520
<v Speaker 2>I mean, Harvard was very very much that kind of thing,

0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.360
<v Speaker 2>but I don't know. Maybe the Iowa Writers Workshop was

0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:51.200
<v Speaker 2>was not. I don't know. His first poem of collection

0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.000
<v Speaker 2>of poems, which was called Silence in the Snowby Fields,

0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:56.840
<v Speaker 2>was published in nineteen sixty two, and it focused on

0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.960
<v Speaker 2>moments of solitude and beauty, as we see in this piece.

0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Driving to town late to mail a letter, it is

0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.240
<v Speaker 2>a cold and snowy night. The main street is deserted.

0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.680
<v Speaker 2>The only things moving are swirls of snow. As I

0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.720
<v Speaker 2>lift the mailbox door, I feel it's cold iron. There

0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.760
<v Speaker 2>is a privacy I love in this snowy night. Driving around,

0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:18.200
<v Speaker 2>I will waste more time, which is just like this nice,

0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:20.520
<v Speaker 2>quiet little Certainly you don't see any red flags there.

0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:21.880
<v Speaker 2>It's just kind of a poem about one of those

0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.160
<v Speaker 2>quiet moments that you have in your life. You know.

0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:27.960
<v Speaker 2>It's I don't know, I don't find it deeply affecting,

0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.280
<v Speaker 2>but there's certainly like it's not like he's writing anything

0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:36.360
<v Speaker 2>you would see a problem with, Yeah, for sure. The

0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.040
<v Speaker 2>next year he published an influential essay in which he

0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:42.920
<v Speaker 2>attacked mainstream American poetry as impersonal, lacking in soul, and

0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.640
<v Speaker 2>a willingness to look inward. His criticism of American society

0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:49.240
<v Speaker 2>expanded after that, and in nineteen sixty six he co

0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:53.440
<v Speaker 2>founded the American Writers Against the Vietnam War. He is

0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:56.760
<v Speaker 2>one of the very first prominent American artists to try

0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:01.800
<v Speaker 2>and organize artists against the war, which is I mean good,

0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:06.160
<v Speaker 2>because it was a bad war. In nineteen sixty eight,

0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.440
<v Speaker 2>he made a public promise to refuse to pay taxes

0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:10.760
<v Speaker 2>until the end of the war, and he also made

0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.800
<v Speaker 2>he made some very trenchiant critiques of US imperialism. In

0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:17.080
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty seven, he wrote an article for the New

0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.760
<v Speaker 2>York Review of Books in which he noted the fact

0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.400
<v Speaker 2>that so few Americans have resigned from the government or

0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:26.000
<v Speaker 2>from responsible posts to protest. The Vietnam War is remarkable

0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:28.440
<v Speaker 2>to me. And he's bringing up also cases of like

0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:30.960
<v Speaker 2>the Russian Revolution and stuff, where you would have these

0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:35.000
<v Speaker 2>horrible wars being prosecuted by regimes that are on paper

0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:37.440
<v Speaker 2>a lot less free than the United States, but also

0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.600
<v Speaker 2>would have a lot more defections or people just like

0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.960
<v Speaker 2>refusing to do their jobs because they believed that of

0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.280
<v Speaker 2>course that the sovereign had set was unethical. And he's like,

0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.160
<v Speaker 2>why isn't this happening in American government? Why is no

0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:52.880
<v Speaker 2>one refusing to be a part of the Vietnam War?

0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.400
<v Speaker 2>And he went on to ask, can we imagine General

0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:59.840
<v Speaker 2>Westmoreland resigning and refusing to prosecute a brutal war? Never

0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.600
<v Speaker 2>pilots drop anti personnel bombs on small North Vietnamese villages

0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:05.320
<v Speaker 2>and many of them hate it, but they don't resign

0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.400
<v Speaker 2>with a public statement of protest. They quietly retire when

0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:12.320
<v Speaker 2>their tour is over. Bli wondered what this showed about Americans?

0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.800
<v Speaker 2>Are we timid? Are we greedy? He thought not, And

0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.520
<v Speaker 2>this is what he wrote. What it shows is a

0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:21.720
<v Speaker 2>disastrous split between the Americans inner and outer worlds. He

0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.040
<v Speaker 2>does not aim to use his life to make himself whole,

0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:27.119
<v Speaker 2>to join the two worlds in himself. On the contrary,

0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:29.160
<v Speaker 2>he is prepared to give up one of the two worlds.

0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:31.959
<v Speaker 2>The business man gives up the inner world and clings

0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.439
<v Speaker 2>to the outer as his way. A large body of

0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.240
<v Speaker 2>literature denounces the business man for taking the one world

0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:39.440
<v Speaker 2>without the other. But when a writer is opposed to

0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:41.679
<v Speaker 2>the Vietnam War and still accepts a grant from the

0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.760
<v Speaker 2>government prosecuting of the war, he is doing something similar.

0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.280
<v Speaker 2>He is letting the world split. He lets the outer

0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.600
<v Speaker 2>world go by him with just a wave of his hand,

0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:51.560
<v Speaker 2>and then he reaches out and pulls the inner world

0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.040
<v Speaker 2>to him. He accepts the money for the sake of

0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.800
<v Speaker 2>my work. It will enable him to live in his

0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.760
<v Speaker 2>inner world. But the disastrous split has already taken place

0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:01.600
<v Speaker 2>before where he begins to use the money for his

0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.000
<v Speaker 2>work instead of trying to apply what he has learned

0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:05.880
<v Speaker 2>in the actions of his inner life to the actions

0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:08.680
<v Speaker 2>of the world. He pulls back inside the house, closes

0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:10.640
<v Speaker 2>the door, and declares he doesn't know what is going

0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:13.040
<v Speaker 2>on out there, or knows, but has rejected it all

0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.919
<v Speaker 2>is outside his sphere of influence or his interest. He

0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.440
<v Speaker 2>is not political, But what could be more within the

0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.080
<v Speaker 2>sphere of interest of a writer than the world. And

0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:26.120
<v Speaker 2>I actually find that a really affecting critique. I think

0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.359
<v Speaker 2>about that a lot, just in terms of, like number one,

0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:31.960
<v Speaker 2>this desire, I have a lot where I'll just be

0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.560
<v Speaker 2>kind of like churning through the muck of a bunch

0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.720
<v Speaker 2>of horrible stories about bullshit going on in Congress, or

0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:41.760
<v Speaker 2>like see some horrible Twitter thing culture warshit roll up,

0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.639
<v Speaker 2>and want to feel this urge to like, well, fuck this,

0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:47.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to pay attention to this anymore. I

0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:50.360
<v Speaker 2>just want to discard this from my life and focus

0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:53.399
<v Speaker 2>on this piece of art or creativity that And I

0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:55.879
<v Speaker 2>think most people feel that, most reasonable people feel that

0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:59.440
<v Speaker 2>way a lot. And what he's saying is like, how

0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.159
<v Speaker 2>can you call yourself a writer? How can you call

0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.480
<v Speaker 2>yourself an artist and attempt to discard the outer world

0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:08.879
<v Speaker 2>in favor of the one that you focus on for

0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:13.560
<v Speaker 2>your creativity, Like how can you actually be connected to

0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:16.679
<v Speaker 2>your inner world in any way and feel as if

0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.400
<v Speaker 2>you can pretend the outer world does not exist? You're

0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:23.160
<v Speaker 2>doing the same thing as a businessman who focuses entirely

0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:27.840
<v Speaker 2>on his desire to make money and ignores his spiritual development. Like,

0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:30.960
<v Speaker 2>there's not a fundamental moral difference between what the two

0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:35.240
<v Speaker 2>of you are doing, because you're both you're both rejecting

0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:41.239
<v Speaker 2>half of your being in order to stick with the

0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:43.879
<v Speaker 2>one that's more comfortable because of whatever you've chosen as

0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:46.960
<v Speaker 2>your profession. And in the case of yeah, I don't know,

0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:49.240
<v Speaker 2>I found an attrenchient critique that makes me think a

0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:54.240
<v Speaker 2>lot about myself. M Maybe check out what Bligh has

0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:56.520
<v Speaker 2>to say about the Vietnam War. And he put his

0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:58.800
<v Speaker 2>money where his mouth was. He used that article to

0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.080
<v Speaker 2>republish a letter he sent to the chairman of the

0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.959
<v Speaker 2>National Foundation on the Arts and Humanities because they had

0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:07.359
<v Speaker 2>offered him a five thousand dollars grant, and he turns

0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.400
<v Speaker 2>it down because he's like, look, this is a this

0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.800
<v Speaker 2>is an instrument of the United States government, and I

0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.840
<v Speaker 2>am opposed to a war they are waging. And even

0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.400
<v Speaker 2>though I could argue that, like, well, if I take

0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:21.680
<v Speaker 2>this money and won't get spent on bombs, what I'm

0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:25.480
<v Speaker 2>really doing is providing legitimacy to the state that is

0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.160
<v Speaker 2>carrying out this terrible war. And I'm simply not going

0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.240
<v Speaker 2>to do that. I'm going to choose to refuse to

0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:35.400
<v Speaker 2>support it in any way even by letting it support me, which,

0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:37.159
<v Speaker 2>whether or not you agree with it, is a deeply

0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.040
<v Speaker 2>principled stance that requires sacrificing something.

0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:43.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so when does he when the sport right?

0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:45.440
<v Speaker 2>He's not a bad guy so far.

0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:49.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm waiting. Yeah, this is this is not cool

0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:50.280
<v Speaker 1>people who did cool stuff?

0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:54.120
<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, So spoiler alert, the Vietnam War ends.

0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:59.280
<v Speaker 2>We don't do great goes. Okay for Vietnam though, well,

0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean, millions of people die, but they do win.

0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:07.120
<v Speaker 2>Bli remains an influential poet and thinker. In the nineteen seventies,

0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:10.640
<v Speaker 2>he organizes the first Great Mother Conference, which is still

0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.960
<v Speaker 2>going on today. It's a nine day festival that explores

0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:18.000
<v Speaker 2>human consciousness and it celebrates this kind of archetypal idea

0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:20.440
<v Speaker 2>of the Great Mother as this kind of like feminine

0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:28.040
<v Speaker 2>creative force that you know, underlies everything in society. And

0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:30.960
<v Speaker 2>Bli the reason why he felt it was important to

0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:33.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of bring consciousness and get people focused on this

0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:37.119
<v Speaker 2>idea and on this celebration of femininity is that he

0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:41.680
<v Speaker 2>saw the Vietnam war as kind of the expression of masculinity,

0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:44.760
<v Speaker 2>like running wild and leading to terrible death, and he

0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:48.159
<v Speaker 2>believed that Americans needed to reconnect with femininity in the

0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:50.359
<v Speaker 2>wake of the Vietnam War, which is again not an

0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:54.760
<v Speaker 2>unreasonable stance. You know, you can argue with it, but

0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:56.240
<v Speaker 2>you can see where he's coming from.

0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:58.760
<v Speaker 1>And they're like both waiting for it.

0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:04.800
<v Speaker 2>Wait for the shooting job. Motherfucker's common. Motherfucker is common. Yeah,

0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:08.879
<v Speaker 2>So as the aftershocks of Vietnam faded, America enters the

0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:13.080
<v Speaker 2>swing in eighties, Blige becomes concerned with something else entirely.

0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:17.040
<v Speaker 2>He sees in the Reagan years, this vapid consumer culture,

0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.919
<v Speaker 2>you know, malls and shit, the the increasing spread of

0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:24.080
<v Speaker 2>popular music is like a concept in a way that

0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:28.359
<v Speaker 2>it really happened, the spread, Like, I mean, look again TV,

0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:31.399
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of transgressive shit on TV today. TV

0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:34.360
<v Speaker 2>in the nineteen eighties was not what it is now.

0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:38.760
<v Speaker 2>So he sees all this happening, and he he also

0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:42.080
<v Speaker 2>just sees, like, again, what kind of Reaganism and unrestrained

0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:47.560
<v Speaker 2>capitalism is doing to people. And he begins to believe

0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:55.120
<v Speaker 2>that the kind of soullessness and brokenness at the at

0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:59.760
<v Speaker 2>the core of the American experiment is the result now

0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:04.680
<v Speaker 2>of crisis in masculinity. Right, So previously he had Yeah,

0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:08.199
<v Speaker 2>there's an extent to which he thinks, like, I don't know,

0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:10.679
<v Speaker 2>we'll get into what he thinks. So in nineteen ninety

0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.760
<v Speaker 2>he writes a book that is kind of illustrating the

0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:15.960
<v Speaker 2>things that he's he started to feel here, and he

0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:20.240
<v Speaker 2>calls it Iron John, a book about men. Now, have

0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:22.800
<v Speaker 2>you heard of the fairy Tale of Iron John? Ian?

0:23:23.480 --> 0:23:24.760
<v Speaker 5>No so familiar?

0:23:25.760 --> 0:23:30.560
<v Speaker 2>No, No, you're not big Grim's fairy Tales people. That's fine,

0:23:30.600 --> 0:23:32.400
<v Speaker 2>neither am I. I had not heard about this either.

0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:34.240
<v Speaker 2>I think maybe it's bigger in Germany.

0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:38.800
<v Speaker 1>Is Grim's fairy Tales? Red Flog continuing, Yeah, oh.

0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:41.400
<v Speaker 2>Wow, Wow, that's a red flag one of the greatest

0:23:41.440 --> 0:23:47.199
<v Speaker 2>works of art. And I'm gonna guess German history, Sophie Robert. Wow,

0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:52.000
<v Speaker 2>I feel like you just hate German history reflexively for

0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:56.159
<v Speaker 2>reasons that have nothing to do with anything that has

0:23:56.200 --> 0:23:57.280
<v Speaker 2>ever happened in history.

0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:00.480
<v Speaker 1>Hmm, I'm in on that.

0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:04.440
<v Speaker 2>Wow wow, well, Red Flag.

0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:08.880
<v Speaker 5>Sund that what he does?

0:24:11.600 --> 0:24:14.919
<v Speaker 2>I think Iron John again, it's a fairy tale, and

0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:17.240
<v Speaker 2>I think I'll give a brief summary of how that

0:24:17.280 --> 0:24:19.840
<v Speaker 2>fairy tale goes. It's because it's again none of us

0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:20.240
<v Speaker 2>are I.

0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:21.600
<v Speaker 1>Mean, you brought it up. You should tell us what

0:24:21.600 --> 0:24:22.679
<v Speaker 1>the I'll tell you.

0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:26.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna do it, so goddamn it. From a rite

0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:30.639
<v Speaker 2>up in the New York magazine. Here, that story goes

0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.679
<v Speaker 2>like this. Something in the forest is killing a kingdom's hunters.

0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:36.200
<v Speaker 2>A stranger arrives, goes into the forest with his dog,

0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:38.840
<v Speaker 2>and returns with a large hairy man he's extracted from

0:24:38.880 --> 0:24:41.480
<v Speaker 2>a pond. This is the wild man whom the king

0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:44.480
<v Speaker 2>locks in a cage. The king's son, playing with his ball,

0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:46.720
<v Speaker 2>lets it slip into the cage, and the wild man

0:24:46.760 --> 0:24:48.920
<v Speaker 2>tells him he'll give it back if the boy steals

0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:51.000
<v Speaker 2>the key to the cage from under his mother's pillow

0:24:51.000 --> 0:24:53.480
<v Speaker 2>and sets him free. The boy unlocks the cage, but

0:24:53.520 --> 0:24:55.879
<v Speaker 2>fearful that he'll be in trouble with his parents, flees

0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:58.240
<v Speaker 2>on the wild man's back to the forest. After the

0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:00.520
<v Speaker 2>boy fails a series of trials and wires a head

0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:02.760
<v Speaker 2>of golden hair, the wild man kicks him out of

0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:04.919
<v Speaker 2>the forest, but after he sinks to the low status

0:25:04.920 --> 0:25:07.399
<v Speaker 2>of a kitchen worker in a foreign kingdom. The wild

0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:09.680
<v Speaker 2>Man helps him become a mighty warrior, and he wins

0:25:09.720 --> 0:25:12.280
<v Speaker 2>the hand of the Princess, is reunited with his parents,

0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:14.600
<v Speaker 2>and becomes the rich, heroic king in his own right.

0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:19.880
<v Speaker 2>So you know, I think we're probably missing some context there,

0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:24.120
<v Speaker 2>just from culture. But it's like I get why that's

0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:27.320
<v Speaker 2>not in like the the tight five of Grim's fairy tales,

0:25:27.840 --> 0:25:29.560
<v Speaker 2>Like that's that's maybe the one you leave on the

0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:30.520
<v Speaker 2>cutting room floor.

0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:31.919
<v Speaker 5>That's like the B sides.

0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:37.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's like a B side. Yeah, that's like, that's like,

0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:39.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, the one of the one of the

0:25:39.560 --> 0:25:42.320
<v Speaker 2>Beatles songs that people don't talk about that much anymore.

0:25:43.560 --> 0:25:48.320
<v Speaker 1>Well, to be fair, like it's up against like snow

0:25:48.320 --> 0:25:49.960
<v Speaker 1>white cinderelative exactly.

0:25:51.359 --> 0:25:56.639
<v Speaker 2>It's not a fairy tale. It would be funny to

0:25:56.680 --> 0:25:58.639
<v Speaker 2>see like modern Disney try to do this.

0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:04.160
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I mean, the actually rooms fairy tales are pretty horrific,

0:26:04.320 --> 0:26:04.919
<v Speaker 1>to be honest.

0:26:05.000 --> 0:26:07.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this one it also might be one of the

0:26:07.600 --> 0:26:09.240
<v Speaker 2>tamer ones. I don't know, I'm not an expert on

0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:09.800
<v Speaker 2>fairy tales.

0:26:09.880 --> 0:26:12.600
<v Speaker 1>Well that's why Disney was like mm to tame not

0:26:12.720 --> 0:26:13.200
<v Speaker 1>into it.

0:26:13.240 --> 0:26:15.680
<v Speaker 2>And again I feel like I feel like This is

0:26:15.720 --> 0:26:18.960
<v Speaker 2>an example. I think sometimes we look at these stories

0:26:19.000 --> 0:26:21.280
<v Speaker 2>that have been around a long time and are like, wow,

0:26:21.800 --> 0:26:23.879
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's some deep wisdom in there, which is

0:26:23.880 --> 0:26:26.359
<v Speaker 2>why we should keep telling them. But I'm looking at this,

0:26:26.520 --> 0:26:29.359
<v Speaker 2>which is it's it's a parable about manhood, right and

0:26:29.400 --> 0:26:32.000
<v Speaker 2>about becoming an adult. And I'm like, you know, it's

0:26:32.000 --> 0:26:34.879
<v Speaker 2>a better parable about manhood and becoming an adult for

0:26:35.080 --> 0:26:35.920
<v Speaker 2>Star Wars movie.

0:26:38.040 --> 0:26:39.359
<v Speaker 5>That's a good point.

0:26:39.520 --> 0:26:43.600
<v Speaker 2>Much better one, much better one. Look, George Lucas knocked

0:26:43.640 --> 0:26:46.080
<v Speaker 2>it out of the park. Fuck you Grim. You know

0:26:46.160 --> 0:26:48.560
<v Speaker 2>who else is George Lucas?

0:26:49.640 --> 0:26:51.760
<v Speaker 1>No, Robert, who else is George Lucas?

0:26:52.160 --> 0:26:54.080
<v Speaker 2>The sponsor of this podcast?

0:26:54.080 --> 0:26:56.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean that would be sold.

0:26:56.960 --> 0:27:01.880
<v Speaker 2>Actually, George, you have the cash sponsor this podcast. Uh,

0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:06.200
<v Speaker 2>and we'll we'll we'll make it work. Buddy, we got

0:27:06.240 --> 0:27:24.840
<v Speaker 2>you anyway, Uh we are back and no but maybe okay.

0:27:25.000 --> 0:27:31.640
<v Speaker 2>So here we are, we're talking, we're having a good time.

0:27:32.720 --> 0:27:35.960
<v Speaker 2>So Blig's book looks at this myth of iron John

0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:39.520
<v Speaker 2>and he re examines the myth using young in psychology,

0:27:39.880 --> 0:27:43.679
<v Speaker 2>which is again another red flag. There's perfectly valid reasons

0:27:43.680 --> 0:27:47.239
<v Speaker 2>to study young, but whenever you have somebody who is

0:27:47.760 --> 0:27:51.800
<v Speaker 2>reevaluating myths using young in psychology, they always turned into

0:27:51.840 --> 0:27:54.359
<v Speaker 2>Jordan B. Peterson. I'm sorry, that's just the way that

0:27:54.400 --> 0:27:57.760
<v Speaker 2>it works. So he's trying to find lessons that are

0:27:57.760 --> 0:28:00.280
<v Speaker 2>going to be meaningful for men struggling with modernity, and

0:28:00.320 --> 0:28:02.919
<v Speaker 2>his basic conclusion, as far as I can tell, is

0:28:02.920 --> 0:28:05.960
<v Speaker 2>that men need rewilding in order to fix the things

0:28:05.960 --> 0:28:08.880
<v Speaker 2>that are driving them crazy. Right, they need to reconnect

0:28:08.920 --> 0:28:13.080
<v Speaker 2>with the wild man inside them. Now, this is going

0:28:13.160 --> 0:28:15.280
<v Speaker 2>to be This is the root of a million kinds

0:28:15.320 --> 0:28:18.240
<v Speaker 2>of influenzer garbage, right, everything in that funck. Like you

0:28:18.240 --> 0:28:20.679
<v Speaker 2>guys know the liver King, that guy who was telling

0:28:20.720 --> 0:28:23.040
<v Speaker 2>people that he got super jacked by eating nothing but

0:28:23.160 --> 0:28:28.160
<v Speaker 2>raw animal livers that he hunted. He's spending twelve thousand

0:28:28.200 --> 0:28:31.959
<v Speaker 2>dollars a month on steroids, which he lied about. Now

0:28:31.960 --> 0:28:34.199
<v Speaker 2>he's getting sued for one hundred million dollars because he

0:28:34.240 --> 0:28:39.400
<v Speaker 2>defrauded people by convincing them to take his liver enzyme pills.

0:28:39.440 --> 0:28:42.000
<v Speaker 2>So funny. But what the liver King is doing is

0:28:42.040 --> 0:28:45.080
<v Speaker 2>this is he's basically setting it, pretending to be the

0:28:45.160 --> 0:28:48.000
<v Speaker 2>wild man that BLI talks about and being like, this

0:28:48.080 --> 0:28:50.000
<v Speaker 2>is what you have to do in order to be

0:28:50.120 --> 0:28:52.440
<v Speaker 2>healthy and deal with all of these toxic things about

0:28:52.480 --> 0:28:55.520
<v Speaker 2>our modern lives is go out and throw spears at

0:28:55.520 --> 0:29:00.560
<v Speaker 2>bores and then eat their raw, uncooked organs, which I

0:29:00.600 --> 0:29:03.440
<v Speaker 2>would actually say is a lot less masculine than doing

0:29:03.440 --> 0:29:06.600
<v Speaker 2>the thing that our actual caveman ancestors did, which was

0:29:06.640 --> 0:29:07.680
<v Speaker 2>learn how to cook meat.

0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:11.760
<v Speaker 5>But you make a really good point.

0:29:11.840 --> 0:29:18.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's also the root of wed. We just started

0:29:18.600 --> 0:29:20.520
<v Speaker 2>this year with a couple of more episodes of Jordan B.

0:29:20.640 --> 0:29:22.600
<v Speaker 2>Peterson's show. He talks a lot about the need for

0:29:22.680 --> 0:29:26.520
<v Speaker 2>men to be controllable beasts, and also references another Grim's

0:29:26.560 --> 0:29:28.880
<v Speaker 2>fairy tale. The one that he chooses is, well, I

0:29:28.920 --> 0:29:31.840
<v Speaker 2>think it's a Grim's fairy tale, fucking Beauty and the Beast.

0:29:32.080 --> 0:29:33.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, maybe not. Maybe that started as a

0:29:33.600 --> 0:29:35.320
<v Speaker 2>Disney thing. I don't know where it started. But he

0:29:35.360 --> 0:29:38.560
<v Speaker 2>talks a lot about like this. Again, all of these

0:29:38.560 --> 0:29:41.960
<v Speaker 2>guys today who are talking about you have to be primal,

0:29:41.960 --> 0:29:43.840
<v Speaker 2>you have to reconnect with your caveman roots.

0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:46.680
<v Speaker 3>You have to Okay, I saw I think I saw

0:29:46.800 --> 0:29:49.320
<v Speaker 3>Jordan B. Peterson like video on Instagram the other day,

0:29:49.320 --> 0:29:51.000
<v Speaker 3>and I didn't know it was him. I was just

0:29:51.040 --> 0:29:53.600
<v Speaker 3>scrolling and he was. But now that you say that,

0:29:53.600 --> 0:29:55.800
<v Speaker 3>I'm pretty sure it was him because he was talking

0:29:55.840 --> 0:30:00.760
<v Speaker 3>about how men should be dangerous, Like yeah, dangerous, but

0:30:00.800 --> 0:30:03.920
<v Speaker 3>it's like knowing when to use the threat of violence

0:30:04.000 --> 0:30:06.120
<v Speaker 3>or not. It's like, just because you're dangerous doesn't mean

0:30:06.160 --> 0:30:08.560
<v Speaker 3>you're like a violent person, but you should have that

0:30:08.640 --> 0:30:11.360
<v Speaker 3>capacity or some shit, that's what makes you a true man.

0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:14.160
<v Speaker 5>It's like, what, yeah, crazy.

0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:17.880
<v Speaker 2>It's I mean, And that's you can see like Peterson

0:30:18.000 --> 0:30:20.200
<v Speaker 2>is not an and he never has been an original thinker.

0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:23.720
<v Speaker 2>He's cribbing from Bly, right, they all are. Bli is

0:30:23.760 --> 0:30:26.400
<v Speaker 2>the origin of this. And it's also worth noting that

0:30:26.480 --> 0:30:30.360
<v Speaker 2>while Bli's book has been the descendants of Bli's book

0:30:30.360 --> 0:30:34.720
<v Speaker 2>are pure reactionary gibberish, Bli himself was not. Again, we

0:30:34.760 --> 0:30:37.360
<v Speaker 2>went through this guy's background. He's he's a deeper thinker

0:30:37.400 --> 0:30:39.600
<v Speaker 2>than that, and there's passages in his book that are

0:30:39.680 --> 0:30:42.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of worth connecting with. So I'm going to read

0:30:42.920 --> 0:30:45.640
<v Speaker 2>a quote from that now to judge by men's lives

0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:48.440
<v Speaker 2>in New Guinea, Kenya, North Africa, Zulu Lands, and in

0:30:48.480 --> 0:30:51.760
<v Speaker 2>the Arab and Persian culture favored flavored by Sufi communities,

0:30:52.120 --> 0:30:55.000
<v Speaker 2>men have lived together in heart unions and sole connections

0:30:55.000 --> 0:30:58.400
<v Speaker 2>for hundreds of thousands of years. Contemporary business life allows

0:30:58.440 --> 0:31:03.280
<v Speaker 2>competitive relationships only, which the major emotions are anxiety, tension, loneliness, rivalry,

0:31:03.280 --> 0:31:06.240
<v Speaker 2>and fear after work. What do men do collect in

0:31:06.280 --> 0:31:09.520
<v Speaker 2>a bar to hold light conversations over light beer? Unities

0:31:09.520 --> 0:31:11.720
<v Speaker 2>that are broken off whenever a young woman comes by

0:31:11.800 --> 0:31:14.480
<v Speaker 2>or touches the brim of someone's cowboy hat. Having no

0:31:14.640 --> 0:31:16.800
<v Speaker 2>soul union with other men can be the most damaging

0:31:16.840 --> 0:31:19.520
<v Speaker 2>wound of all, and the cowboy hat things kind of weird,

0:31:19.520 --> 0:31:22.200
<v Speaker 2>But that's a totally valid point. The lack of intimate

0:31:22.360 --> 0:31:25.840
<v Speaker 2>male to male friendship is a deep problem in ourself.

0:31:26.760 --> 0:31:29.040
<v Speaker 1>Light beer, I.

0:31:28.640 --> 0:31:32.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean, because I think he's just sort of I mean, okay, whatever,

0:31:32.880 --> 0:31:35.200
<v Speaker 2>he's getting into a little bit of masculinity there. The

0:31:35.240 --> 0:31:40.640
<v Speaker 2>point is, like, fucker, yeah, sorry, Sophie, famous lover of

0:31:40.720 --> 0:31:44.920
<v Speaker 2>light beer. It's okay. I love I love my champagne

0:31:44.960 --> 0:31:49.560
<v Speaker 2>beer too. I just I had some lovely I actually

0:31:49.600 --> 0:31:54.760
<v Speaker 2>wish I had some Peroni right Nowightful Peroni is a lovely, nice, wonderful,

0:31:54.840 --> 0:31:55.960
<v Speaker 2>especially on a hot day.

0:31:56.080 --> 0:31:57.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I've done I've.

0:31:57.640 --> 0:32:00.200
<v Speaker 2>Gone on long runs with nothing but a backpack of

0:32:00.240 --> 0:32:01.440
<v Speaker 2>Peroni to keep me going.

0:32:02.280 --> 0:32:04.480
<v Speaker 1>That sounds very believable.

0:32:04.880 --> 0:32:06.840
<v Speaker 2>Paroni. It is essentially water.

0:32:09.080 --> 0:32:11.040
<v Speaker 5>I can smell the dolls coming in.

0:32:11.160 --> 0:32:14.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, sponsorous cowards.

0:32:15.160 --> 0:32:17.320
<v Speaker 2>But you see it, like what he's making there, and

0:32:17.360 --> 0:32:19.080
<v Speaker 2>this is not a point that like, this is not

0:32:19.120 --> 0:32:21.160
<v Speaker 2>a point Andrew Tate would make, right, because these guys

0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:24.959
<v Speaker 2>are all hyper competitive and that's a huge part of

0:32:25.000 --> 0:32:28.000
<v Speaker 2>like what they're talking about, whereas one of the like

0:32:28.080 --> 0:32:30.680
<v Speaker 2>Bly is at his core, a large part of what

0:32:30.680 --> 0:32:33.440
<v Speaker 2>he's complaining about is totally rational, which is like, again,

0:32:34.200 --> 0:32:35.520
<v Speaker 2>allowed to it.

0:32:35.720 --> 0:32:37.480
<v Speaker 1>Where is it? Yeh? Where is this way?

0:32:37.680 --> 0:32:40.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's not the only thing in the book. He's

0:32:40.920 --> 0:32:42.160
<v Speaker 2>also talking a lot of.

0:32:42.240 --> 0:32:46.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, we're getting to it, okay.

0:32:47.200 --> 0:32:49.720
<v Speaker 2>Iron John spends sixty two weeks on the New York

0:32:50.240 --> 0:32:53.720
<v Speaker 2>seller list. Yeah, I only anything gets spends that long

0:32:53.760 --> 0:32:54.640
<v Speaker 2>in the best seller listed.

0:32:54.720 --> 0:32:55.720
<v Speaker 1>It's a long ass time.

0:32:56.640 --> 0:32:59.720
<v Speaker 5>Yes, that is that is innies still.

0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:03.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety to ninety one,

0:33:03.280 --> 0:33:05.960
<v Speaker 2>because it's on there for more than a year, and

0:33:06.120 --> 0:33:09.040
<v Speaker 2>it turned Bly from a respected poet and activist into

0:33:09.080 --> 0:33:13.120
<v Speaker 2>the first masculinity guru in modern US history. Now again,

0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:17.040
<v Speaker 2>we had guys like Bonnara McFadden before, who had talked

0:33:17.040 --> 0:33:19.560
<v Speaker 2>about aspects of this. But BLI is wrapping his arguments

0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:23.000
<v Speaker 2>and respected academia, and the way he's connecting with his

0:33:23.080 --> 0:33:25.280
<v Speaker 2>people is exactly the same as the kind of shit

0:33:25.320 --> 0:33:28.440
<v Speaker 2>that Jordan Peterson and other folks do today, Guys like

0:33:28.520 --> 0:33:32.600
<v Speaker 2>Ivan Throne and whatnot who were in the masculinity influencer thing.

0:33:32.960 --> 0:33:37.440
<v Speaker 2>He's doing conferences, He's having rooms full of people, men

0:33:37.560 --> 0:33:40.479
<v Speaker 2>gather and he's speaking to them, and he's like running

0:33:40.520 --> 0:33:43.880
<v Speaker 2>them through. He's basically bringing them to these moments of

0:33:43.880 --> 0:33:46.640
<v Speaker 2>emotional height, and you can see some there's a little

0:33:46.640 --> 0:33:48.600
<v Speaker 2>bit of Werner Earhard in this. You know, there's a

0:33:48.640 --> 0:33:50.480
<v Speaker 2>reason this is all coming out at the same time

0:33:50.600 --> 0:33:53.080
<v Speaker 2>as we start to get the self help craze hit.

0:33:54.080 --> 0:33:57.160
<v Speaker 2>But he's basically holding these big pep rallies for adult men.

0:33:57.520 --> 0:33:59.840
<v Speaker 2>In nineteen ninety one, more than a thousand men went

0:33:59.840 --> 0:34:02.880
<v Speaker 2>to see him at the Eastfold Auditorium in Parkland, Washington,

0:34:02.920 --> 0:34:07.640
<v Speaker 2>paying seventy five nineteen ninety one dollars lois for the privilege. Yeah.

0:34:07.680 --> 0:34:11.880
<v Speaker 2>A contemporary article in Entertainment Weekly describes the scene thusly,

0:34:12.600 --> 0:34:15.280
<v Speaker 2>as the customers file in a dozen white guys flail

0:34:15.320 --> 0:34:18.640
<v Speaker 2>away incompetently on African drums. When the crowd is seated,

0:34:18.640 --> 0:34:21.120
<v Speaker 2>the drummers quit the stage, and Bly and Michael Mead,

0:34:21.160 --> 0:34:24.200
<v Speaker 2>a storyteller who helps run the workshops, begin to recite,

0:34:24.320 --> 0:34:28.000
<v Speaker 2>rambling myths and bits of verse. Meat occasionally bangs a bongo,

0:34:28.200 --> 0:34:31.640
<v Speaker 2>Bly plinks a bazouki, the Greek version of the Mandolins,

0:34:32.080 --> 0:34:35.200
<v Speaker 2>sending mournful notes wafting out over the audience. So that

0:34:35.680 --> 0:34:37.440
<v Speaker 2>sounds good, right, It sounds like a fun time.

0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:40.120
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it sounds like a great way to spend seventy fight.

0:34:40.360 --> 0:34:44.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I always love white guys playing African drums in

0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:52.480
<v Speaker 2>my gigantic stadium speech series by a fucking poet. Anyway, Bly,

0:34:52.760 --> 0:34:55.160
<v Speaker 2>who in nineteen eighty four had been called the most

0:34:55.440 --> 0:34:59.120
<v Speaker 2>influential living American poet by current biography, became a kind

0:34:59.120 --> 0:35:02.400
<v Speaker 2>of celebrity that hadn't previously existed. So he's filling stadiums

0:35:02.400 --> 0:35:04.200
<v Speaker 2>with people who want to hear him talk. But he's

0:35:04.200 --> 0:35:06.239
<v Speaker 2>also he's engaging them in a way that's going to

0:35:06.280 --> 0:35:10.640
<v Speaker 2>spawn the modern men's self help industry. Quote Bli urges

0:35:10.680 --> 0:35:13.160
<v Speaker 2>men to rediscover their manhood by getting back to their

0:35:13.160 --> 0:35:16.719
<v Speaker 2>wild nature. Some feminists, he says, in a justified fear

0:35:16.760 --> 0:35:19.920
<v Speaker 2>of brutality, have labored to breed fierceness out of men,

0:35:20.120 --> 0:35:23.000
<v Speaker 2>creating the sort of soft male of whom Teddy Roosevelt

0:35:23.040 --> 0:35:25.160
<v Speaker 2>might have said, I could carve a better man out

0:35:25.160 --> 0:35:28.160
<v Speaker 2>of a banana. Bli believes that inside of every such male,

0:35:28.200 --> 0:35:31.160
<v Speaker 2>there's a wild man yearning to get out, a radiant

0:35:31.200 --> 0:35:34.760
<v Speaker 2>inner king, just waiting to confirm masculine pride and suareness

0:35:34.760 --> 0:35:38.400
<v Speaker 2>of purpose. Bli insists he doesn't blame women for men's

0:35:38.400 --> 0:35:41.120
<v Speaker 2>sorry state. He blames older men who have failed to

0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:43.680
<v Speaker 2>provide young ones with the role models they crave. In

0:35:43.719 --> 0:35:48.320
<v Speaker 2>traditional societies, boys worked alongside men, plowing fields and fashioning arrowheads,

0:35:48.520 --> 0:35:51.920
<v Speaker 2>but the Industrial Revolution severed that connection. The title character

0:35:51.960 --> 0:35:54.200
<v Speaker 2>and his bestseller is a wild hairy fellow who, in

0:35:54.760 --> 0:35:56.719
<v Speaker 2>a grim fairy tale, is fished up from a pond

0:35:56.800 --> 0:35:59.319
<v Speaker 2>and becomes a boy's mentor. That image is also the

0:35:59.320 --> 0:36:02.960
<v Speaker 2>inspiration for his most extravagant exercise and manly self discovery,

0:36:03.280 --> 0:36:05.759
<v Speaker 2>five day wild Man Excursions, in which groups of one

0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:07.880
<v Speaker 2>hundred men take to the woods under the tutelage of

0:36:07.880 --> 0:36:10.880
<v Speaker 2>Bly and others to dance around fires, banging on drums.

0:36:11.280 --> 0:36:13.640
<v Speaker 1>I mean, honey to say you have daddy issues and

0:36:13.680 --> 0:36:14.520
<v Speaker 1>move the fuck on.

0:36:15.560 --> 0:36:18.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, I mean again this is there's this there's

0:36:18.760 --> 0:36:22.320
<v Speaker 2>this element where he's like, society is fucked because feminists

0:36:22.360 --> 0:36:27.239
<v Speaker 2>have tried to breed the violence out of my ninety one.

0:36:27.760 --> 0:36:31.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, so you know you have it's like like

0:36:31.160 --> 0:36:34.040
<v Speaker 1>astonishing to me that people are paying seventy five dollars

0:36:34.719 --> 0:36:37.120
<v Speaker 1>and like selling out. I mean that's more like that's

0:36:37.120 --> 0:36:40.160
<v Speaker 1>more than the people were paying for Coachella in the

0:36:40.200 --> 0:36:41.880
<v Speaker 1>early early two thousands.

0:36:42.880 --> 0:36:46.160
<v Speaker 3>The crazy thing is like at the core of what

0:36:46.280 --> 0:36:48.520
<v Speaker 3>he's saying, it's like most of that sounds like he's

0:36:48.560 --> 0:36:51.640
<v Speaker 3>making some good points vallid points about, you know, how

0:36:52.080 --> 0:36:55.000
<v Speaker 3>men have evolved in our society. So I'm just like,

0:36:55.080 --> 0:36:56.719
<v Speaker 3>where where's the twist, because.

0:36:56.640 --> 0:36:59.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, there's the You've seen it start to him

0:37:00.160 --> 0:37:02.360
<v Speaker 2>and here. So it's because like the valid thing in

0:37:02.400 --> 0:37:05.560
<v Speaker 2>that passage just he's like, hey, look, young boys used

0:37:05.600 --> 0:37:08.920
<v Speaker 2>to grow up learning alongside both their father and the

0:37:08.960 --> 0:37:11.399
<v Speaker 2>other men, you know, in whatever community they were in,

0:37:11.680 --> 0:37:14.279
<v Speaker 2>and that taught them what it meant to be a man.

0:37:14.920 --> 0:37:17.920
<v Speaker 2>And now because capitalism has kind of taken the man

0:37:17.960 --> 0:37:20.000
<v Speaker 2>out of the house. You're supposed to be working forty

0:37:20.040 --> 0:37:23.040
<v Speaker 2>sixty eighty hours a week, right, They're not there to ray.

0:37:23.080 --> 0:37:26.360
<v Speaker 2>It's just the usually in like the way our society works,

0:37:26.360 --> 0:37:29.640
<v Speaker 2>just the woman who's raising the kid. That's what he's saying, then,

0:37:29.880 --> 0:37:32.600
<v Speaker 2>that we've cut men off from this process of learning

0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:35.040
<v Speaker 2>how to be adult men and like that is actually

0:37:35.120 --> 0:37:38.879
<v Speaker 2>a pretty valid critique, And the problem is that now

0:37:39.160 --> 0:37:42.840
<v Speaker 2>he's saying, the problem is that feminists have bred fierceness

0:37:42.880 --> 0:37:46.800
<v Speaker 2>out of men instead of being like capitalism separates parents

0:37:46.800 --> 0:37:50.280
<v Speaker 2>from children for huge amounts of time, and that's bad

0:37:50.400 --> 0:37:53.719
<v Speaker 2>for kids. And actually, if you look at it, like

0:37:54.120 --> 0:37:57.319
<v Speaker 2>you could see in that very scenario of like men

0:37:57.400 --> 0:38:00.319
<v Speaker 2>are out of the house working so they're raised are

0:38:00.480 --> 0:38:02.719
<v Speaker 2>raised largely by their mothers. Well, that also means an

0:38:02.800 --> 0:38:05.160
<v Speaker 2>unfair burdens being placed on the mother. You could see this,

0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:08.279
<v Speaker 2>there's a way to have solidarity between the genders here

0:38:08.280 --> 0:38:09.719
<v Speaker 2>and be like, oh, yeah, this is all of a

0:38:09.760 --> 0:38:13.280
<v Speaker 2>problem of this system we've built that like separates families

0:38:13.320 --> 0:38:15.600
<v Speaker 2>in ways that are really fucked up. Like I identify

0:38:15.680 --> 0:38:18.440
<v Speaker 2>with that when I was a kid because we didn't

0:38:18.480 --> 0:38:20.520
<v Speaker 2>have much money at all. The only job my dad

0:38:20.560 --> 0:38:22.160
<v Speaker 2>could get was in New York City, and there was

0:38:22.200 --> 0:38:24.640
<v Speaker 2>a period of more than a year where he was gone.

0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:26.960
<v Speaker 2>He was living on a friend's couch, working there, sending

0:38:27.000 --> 0:38:30.040
<v Speaker 2>money back to us, and it was it was it's

0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:32.400
<v Speaker 2>not just him that made a sacrifice. I made a

0:38:32.440 --> 0:38:35.399
<v Speaker 2>sacrifice as his son, and my mom made a sacrifice

0:38:35.719 --> 0:38:38.920
<v Speaker 2>dealing with the entire job of like raising me. Like

0:38:39.800 --> 0:38:42.560
<v Speaker 2>there's a thing to identify with their But you can

0:38:42.560 --> 0:38:44.719
<v Speaker 2>see the start of the toxicity where he's like, well,

0:38:44.719 --> 0:38:46.799
<v Speaker 2>what's the problem is that feminists have tried to make

0:38:46.880 --> 0:38:50.680
<v Speaker 2>men less fierce? That's not really the problem, Robert BLI like.

0:38:52.840 --> 0:38:55.320
<v Speaker 3>One interesting thing just before you keep going, is I

0:38:55.360 --> 0:38:57.759
<v Speaker 3>think in that quote, did he say like justifiably they

0:38:57.800 --> 0:39:01.399
<v Speaker 3>tried to breathe that, yeah, brutality out.

0:39:01.320 --> 0:39:01.960
<v Speaker 5>Of men or whatever.

0:39:02.280 --> 0:39:05.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, even there, like on some level, you know, you

0:39:05.760 --> 0:39:08.839
<v Speaker 3>can kind of like, okay, like I kind of see

0:39:08.880 --> 0:39:11.680
<v Speaker 3>what the point he's making. You know, men do perpetuate

0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:13.799
<v Speaker 3>a lot of the bullshit that happens to women in

0:39:13.840 --> 0:39:14.640
<v Speaker 3>our society.

0:39:15.080 --> 0:39:18.200
<v Speaker 2>So like he's not nearly he's not anywhere, He's not

0:39:18.239 --> 0:39:21.120
<v Speaker 2>on the same planet of toxicity. Is a lot of

0:39:21.200 --> 0:39:23.400
<v Speaker 2>like as guys like you know, Andrew Tate, who were

0:39:23.400 --> 0:39:26.000
<v Speaker 2>about to talk about, or even like Drian Peterson. But

0:39:26.040 --> 0:39:27.960
<v Speaker 2>you can see the root of it right where he is.

0:39:28.000 --> 0:39:28.760
<v Speaker 5>It's like the start.

0:39:28.960 --> 0:39:32.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, he's he's still saying fundamentally, part of the

0:39:32.239 --> 0:39:35.319
<v Speaker 2>problem is famous want men to be less aggressive, and like, no,

0:39:35.400 --> 0:39:37.200
<v Speaker 2>that's not really part of the problem that you have

0:39:37.320 --> 0:39:43.200
<v Speaker 2>adequately identified. Yeah, he wants his listeners. The young boys

0:39:43.239 --> 0:39:46.160
<v Speaker 2>are drowning and female energy in the schools. Every young

0:39:46.200 --> 0:39:48.759
<v Speaker 2>man has a fantastic need for initiation. That's why we

0:39:48.800 --> 0:39:52.560
<v Speaker 2>all became so crazy about our football coach. Such initiations,

0:39:52.560 --> 0:39:56.760
<v Speaker 2>he says, channel wildness into socially approved acts. And again

0:39:57.440 --> 0:39:59.799
<v Speaker 2>you see kind of this, like, well, why is the

0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:04.040
<v Speaker 2>prob isn't female energy, Like it's not that like it's

0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:07.080
<v Speaker 2>that young men. It's that families are being split up

0:40:07.120 --> 0:40:09.720
<v Speaker 2>by this like need to compete and work in ways

0:40:09.719 --> 0:40:12.440
<v Speaker 2>that are really unhealthy for kids. But anyway, you can

0:40:12.480 --> 0:40:14.560
<v Speaker 2>look at the sea of other self help grifters at

0:40:14.560 --> 0:40:17.399
<v Speaker 2>the time, Wrener Earhard, Aron Hubbard who had come around

0:40:17.400 --> 0:40:19.520
<v Speaker 2>at this point, and you could say that BLI is

0:40:19.560 --> 0:40:22.040
<v Speaker 2>just kind of another dude and that he's doing a

0:40:22.080 --> 0:40:23.680
<v Speaker 2>lot of the same things a lot of these other

0:40:23.760 --> 0:40:26.239
<v Speaker 2>self help grifters are doing. But one of the things

0:40:26.239 --> 0:40:29.000
<v Speaker 2>that differs him is those guys are mostly pil like

0:40:29.120 --> 0:40:33.080
<v Speaker 2>plying nonsense based on bad interpretations of Eastern religion and

0:40:33.160 --> 0:40:37.160
<v Speaker 2>psychological abuse. And BLI is kind of he's not insulting

0:40:37.280 --> 0:40:41.480
<v Speaker 2>or attacking people, he's not calling them them weak. He's

0:40:41.600 --> 0:40:45.240
<v Speaker 2>he's making some reasonable points about stuff that's toxic about

0:40:45.280 --> 0:40:48.800
<v Speaker 2>our society. And then he's trying to create like mutual

0:40:48.880 --> 0:40:52.919
<v Speaker 2>cathartic experiences with the men in his audience who are

0:40:53.520 --> 0:40:56.319
<v Speaker 2>being invited to kind of see the men around them

0:40:56.360 --> 0:40:59.000
<v Speaker 2>as brothers in a way that's more intimate than maybe

0:40:59.160 --> 0:41:03.160
<v Speaker 2>they had been trained to do previously. So again he's

0:41:03.960 --> 0:41:07.000
<v Speaker 2>there's there's something interesting going on here that he isn't

0:41:07.000 --> 0:41:09.200
<v Speaker 2>even wholly toxic that I think is kind of worth

0:41:09.239 --> 0:41:12.000
<v Speaker 2>acknowledging as we lead to the parts of it that

0:41:12.040 --> 0:41:16.000
<v Speaker 2>are a lot more toxic. And it's one of those

0:41:16.000 --> 0:41:17.880
<v Speaker 2>things where, like I've spent a lot of time on

0:41:17.960 --> 0:41:20.839
<v Speaker 2>in cell message boards, and they do talk a lot

0:41:20.840 --> 0:41:24.040
<v Speaker 2>about this feeling of disconnection with society. So when he

0:41:24.080 --> 0:41:27.200
<v Speaker 2>says that like young men are not connected to their communities.

0:41:27.239 --> 0:41:30.400
<v Speaker 2>He's making a decent point. He also one of the

0:41:30.400 --> 0:41:32.000
<v Speaker 2>points he makes that I thought was interesting is he

0:41:32.040 --> 0:41:35.479
<v Speaker 2>talks about the differences between female sex at and male

0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:37.520
<v Speaker 2>sex at. He points out that because of like just

0:41:37.560 --> 0:41:43.120
<v Speaker 2>basic biological realities of how periods happen, young girls are

0:41:43.600 --> 0:41:47.120
<v Speaker 2>instructed about their bodies in ways that young boys are not,

0:41:47.320 --> 0:41:50.760
<v Speaker 2>and it leads to lifelong discomfort talking about their bodies,

0:41:50.800 --> 0:41:54.919
<v Speaker 2>talking about health problems. And that's probably a valid thing

0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:55.520
<v Speaker 2>to point out.

0:41:56.200 --> 0:41:58.320
<v Speaker 1>Sarah definitely goes both ways.

0:41:58.800 --> 0:42:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Sure, and again he's it's very he's completely ignorant to well,

0:42:03.239 --> 0:42:06.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure there's a lot of things actually, especially today,

0:42:06.560 --> 0:42:10.280
<v Speaker 2>that women are not taught about their bodies because of anyway. Again,

0:42:10.680 --> 0:42:12.719
<v Speaker 2>these are a lot of two way problems, and he's

0:42:12.760 --> 0:42:15.600
<v Speaker 2>focusing just on the male aspect of them. But he's

0:42:15.600 --> 0:42:18.719
<v Speaker 2>not inherently wrong about the male aspect of them. He's

0:42:18.760 --> 0:42:22.160
<v Speaker 2>just leaving a large part of the equation out and

0:42:22.200 --> 0:42:24.080
<v Speaker 2>that's where the toxicity comes in here.

0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:26.919
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, I'm ready, I'm ready.

0:42:27.680 --> 0:42:30.480
<v Speaker 2>Bly has reached his fundamental message. Men and women are

0:42:30.560 --> 0:42:34.319
<v Speaker 2>essentially alien and neither should apologize they're different tribes. He

0:42:34.400 --> 0:42:36.440
<v Speaker 2>is saying, my father was an alcoholic, and yet if

0:42:36.440 --> 0:42:38.560
<v Speaker 2>you look underneath his weakness, there was something there that

0:42:38.600 --> 0:42:41.160
<v Speaker 2>my mother didn't have. She was fine, but she didn't

0:42:41.200 --> 0:42:43.560
<v Speaker 2>have it. Three million sperms start out and they find

0:42:43.560 --> 0:42:46.799
<v Speaker 2>themselves immediately in a hostile environment facing an egg approximately

0:42:46.840 --> 0:42:49.560
<v Speaker 2>forty thousand times bigger, where the product of the one

0:42:49.640 --> 0:42:53.280
<v Speaker 2>survivor that didn't give up, which is it's really weird

0:42:53.400 --> 0:42:58.359
<v Speaker 2>to be like setting up the gender struggle as like

0:42:58.480 --> 0:43:01.359
<v Speaker 2>sperm versus egg, where it's like, sure, well, actually all

0:43:01.400 --> 0:43:04.479
<v Speaker 2>of us are their product of spermnas that's the only

0:43:04.560 --> 0:43:05.520
<v Speaker 2>way people happen.

0:43:06.480 --> 0:43:08.520
<v Speaker 1>He's got to emphasize on the last product quote there

0:43:08.560 --> 0:43:11.120
<v Speaker 1>you said, we are in the product of the one

0:43:11.239 --> 0:43:13.040
<v Speaker 1>survivor that didn't give up.

0:43:13.640 --> 0:43:15.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what's the other half of that equation? Is it

0:43:15.920 --> 0:43:17.840
<v Speaker 2>just is it just one little bit of bit of

0:43:17.920 --> 0:43:23.399
<v Speaker 2>cum that makes a baby? Why, like, Chris, is there

0:43:23.440 --> 0:43:26.000
<v Speaker 2>another part to the baby equation? Yeah?

0:43:26.040 --> 0:43:27.840
<v Speaker 1>I just want to be like, honey, did you not

0:43:27.880 --> 0:43:29.719
<v Speaker 1>show up for sex said class that day? Did you

0:43:29.760 --> 0:43:30.560
<v Speaker 1>miss that? Lesson?

0:43:32.400 --> 0:43:35.280
<v Speaker 2>The sperm have to murder the eggs so that one

0:43:35.320 --> 0:43:41.839
<v Speaker 2>can survive. That is not the way it works. Bli

0:43:42.000 --> 0:43:45.000
<v Speaker 2>actually insists that he is not preaching old style machismo,

0:43:45.320 --> 0:43:47.640
<v Speaker 2>and he takes pains to tell his audience that, in fact,

0:43:47.680 --> 0:43:51.319
<v Speaker 2>male rage's weakness. We're not talking about aggression, he calls out.

0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:53.799
<v Speaker 2>A few of his listeners seemed confused. At the height

0:43:53.840 --> 0:43:55.879
<v Speaker 2>of an hour long discussion of the Gulf War, one

0:43:55.920 --> 0:43:59.319
<v Speaker 2>audience member announces that he seceded from society. I'm not

0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:01.759
<v Speaker 2>paying my tab, I've bought an AK forty seven, and

0:44:01.800 --> 0:44:04.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm farting around with ammunition just in case I have

0:44:04.120 --> 0:44:07.399
<v Speaker 2>to back up my decision, he says, softly but firmly. Bly,

0:44:07.480 --> 0:44:09.560
<v Speaker 2>and many others have spoken out against the Gulf War,

0:44:09.640 --> 0:44:12.719
<v Speaker 2>yet nobody criticizes the AK forty seven fellow. And when

0:44:12.719 --> 0:44:15.040
<v Speaker 2>Bli asks the Vietnam Vets to stand to be honored,

0:44:15.040 --> 0:44:17.720
<v Speaker 2>the rum erupts with the applause for about three minutes.

0:44:18.480 --> 0:44:21.360
<v Speaker 2>And you can see there too, the seeds of a

0:44:21.480 --> 0:44:27.000
<v Speaker 2>lot that's going on right now, right where yeah, he's like,

0:44:27.040 --> 0:44:29.520
<v Speaker 2>we're not talking about men need to be more aggressive.

0:44:29.560 --> 0:44:31.160
<v Speaker 2>And then a guy's like, I have dropped out of

0:44:31.160 --> 0:44:38.960
<v Speaker 2>society and started buying guns, and everyone's like that's great, cool, Look,

0:44:39.160 --> 0:44:44.799
<v Speaker 2>we're not anyway whatever. BLI died last year. He lived a.

0:44:44.719 --> 0:44:47.040
<v Speaker 1>Long time, yeah, I would say.

0:44:46.960 --> 0:44:51.760
<v Speaker 2>And you can find people, you know, reappraising his work

0:44:51.800 --> 0:44:53.719
<v Speaker 2>and stuff. There's some folks who will say that, like,

0:44:53.800 --> 0:44:57.040
<v Speaker 2>his greater talent was for self promotion rather than poetry,

0:44:57.239 --> 0:44:59.440
<v Speaker 2>and he wasn't as good a poet as people had said.

0:44:59.600 --> 0:44:59.960
<v Speaker 5>I don't know.

0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:02.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm not a not a poetry guy. I'm not gonna

0:45:03.080 --> 0:45:07.160
<v Speaker 2>analyze his poetry in that way. I do think sometimes

0:45:07.280 --> 0:45:11.120
<v Speaker 2>because somebody turns out to age into a problematic person,

0:45:11.160 --> 0:45:13.080
<v Speaker 2>people are like, well, I guess their work that everybody

0:45:13.160 --> 0:45:15.439
<v Speaker 2>loved in the past sucked, And I think that's kind

0:45:15.440 --> 0:45:19.000
<v Speaker 2>of cowardly. Like, nah, people liked his poems, they were influential,

0:45:19.040 --> 0:45:26.800
<v Speaker 2>and then he turned into a crank. That's fine, that happens. Like, yeah, anyway,

0:45:26.920 --> 0:45:29.440
<v Speaker 2>you know who isn't a crank and who will never

0:45:29.520 --> 0:45:34.440
<v Speaker 2>do anything problematic? My favorite filmmaker Roman Oh, oh you

0:45:34.480 --> 0:45:36.759
<v Speaker 2>know what. I googled his name right as I was

0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:41.920
<v Speaker 2>saying that, Oh boy, oh dear, well, I'm gonna go

0:45:41.960 --> 0:45:45.959
<v Speaker 2>burn all my DVDs of Rosemary's Baby and y'all check

0:45:46.000 --> 0:45:52.840
<v Speaker 2>out these ads. Ah, we're back, really glad. I caught

0:45:52.880 --> 0:45:57.000
<v Speaker 2>myself with a little while I thought it was good

0:45:57.040 --> 0:45:59.800
<v Speaker 2>with like the talk about reappraising his works and the

0:46:00.080 --> 0:46:02.640
<v Speaker 2>thank you, thank you, I thrive on praise.

0:46:02.880 --> 0:46:04.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that was something different, good for you.

0:46:06.560 --> 0:46:10.360
<v Speaker 2>So Bli died, but his work launched what scholars have

0:46:10.480 --> 0:46:14.800
<v Speaker 2>called the mythopoetic men's movement, and it's.

0:46:14.440 --> 0:46:18.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, yeah, that's amazing.

0:46:18.400 --> 0:46:24.040
<v Speaker 2>It is. It is a somewhat uh fucking prickish name

0:46:24.120 --> 0:46:27.200
<v Speaker 2>to call it, I guess, but it's what they mean

0:46:27.200 --> 0:46:29.480
<v Speaker 2>by mythopoetic. I should explain, Like what they're saying is

0:46:29.520 --> 0:46:31.640
<v Speaker 2>like the argument Bli and the other because there's a

0:46:31.719 --> 0:46:33.839
<v Speaker 2>bunch of other authors in this. The argment they're making

0:46:33.880 --> 0:46:38.520
<v Speaker 2>is that our society has stripped mythology out and has

0:46:38.600 --> 0:46:42.520
<v Speaker 2>become this like kind of coldly competitive engine for creating

0:46:42.960 --> 0:46:46.200
<v Speaker 2>cash value, and that we need in order to make

0:46:46.239 --> 0:46:49.600
<v Speaker 2>men healthier, we need to reintroduce like this kind of

0:46:49.719 --> 0:46:54.160
<v Speaker 2>mythic understanding of masculinity and of the world that like

0:46:54.800 --> 0:46:56.840
<v Speaker 2>that's kind and a lot of it is they're like

0:46:56.920 --> 0:47:00.279
<v Speaker 2>looking at like Native American cultures and so of the

0:47:00.280 --> 0:47:03.200
<v Speaker 2>different rituals around masculinity they had and being like, well,

0:47:03.239 --> 0:47:06.840
<v Speaker 2>maybe well and there's actually again, there's a scientific basis

0:47:06.880 --> 0:47:09.359
<v Speaker 2>to a lot of this is cultural appropriation. But like,

0:47:09.360 --> 0:47:11.520
<v Speaker 2>one of the things that's happening in this period is

0:47:11.560 --> 0:47:14.560
<v Speaker 2>you've got a lot of Vietnam veterans dealing with PTSD

0:47:14.760 --> 0:47:17.200
<v Speaker 2>in an era before they understand it. And a thing

0:47:17.239 --> 0:47:19.640
<v Speaker 2>that occurs during this period is that some of them

0:47:19.680 --> 0:47:23.160
<v Speaker 2>have buddies who are also struggling with PTSD and are

0:47:23.320 --> 0:47:28.080
<v Speaker 2>Indigenous Americans and who invite their white and black and

0:47:28.160 --> 0:47:32.680
<v Speaker 2>Hispanic battle buddies back to do stuff like sweat lodges

0:47:33.280 --> 0:47:36.320
<v Speaker 2>in order to cope, and other kind of different rituals

0:47:36.320 --> 0:47:39.239
<v Speaker 2>that have existed in some of these indigenous societies to

0:47:39.280 --> 0:47:41.920
<v Speaker 2>deal with what happens to men when they go to

0:47:42.000 --> 0:47:45.400
<v Speaker 2>war and they invite their friends back, and that stuff

0:47:45.440 --> 0:47:48.080
<v Speaker 2>works better than just getting a job working for an

0:47:48.120 --> 0:47:52.359
<v Speaker 2>accounting firm immediately after leaving Vietnam. And so people are

0:47:52.360 --> 0:47:55.040
<v Speaker 2>starting to study this and write about it. And one

0:47:55.080 --> 0:47:57.600
<v Speaker 2>of the things that the mythopoetic guys take is this

0:47:57.920 --> 0:48:00.360
<v Speaker 2>belief that you should basically just kind of like steel

0:48:00.400 --> 0:48:04.680
<v Speaker 2>wholesale from these cultures and dress white people up in

0:48:05.000 --> 0:48:08.520
<v Speaker 2>headdresses and give them drums and stuff, as opposed to

0:48:08.560 --> 0:48:12.520
<v Speaker 2>being like, oh, well, maybe you know, there's a way

0:48:12.560 --> 0:48:15.160
<v Speaker 2>that isn't that to look at the value that some

0:48:15.239 --> 0:48:19.279
<v Speaker 2>of these rituals have in healing people. You know, I'm

0:48:19.280 --> 0:48:22.319
<v Speaker 2>not the person to analyze that completely, but that's part

0:48:22.360 --> 0:48:25.799
<v Speaker 2>of what they're saying here, is that like they're kind

0:48:25.800 --> 0:48:29.160
<v Speaker 2>of recognizing there's something hollow at the center of American

0:48:29.200 --> 0:48:33.160
<v Speaker 2>culture that is not hollow in some of these other cultures.

0:48:33.200 --> 0:48:36.600
<v Speaker 2>And instead of being like, maybe there's things that we

0:48:36.640 --> 0:48:39.799
<v Speaker 2>should fundamentally change about American culture there, they're saying, what

0:48:39.880 --> 0:48:42.719
<v Speaker 2>if we dress up like these other people? Right, That's

0:48:42.840 --> 0:48:45.480
<v Speaker 2>essentially what's going on with a lot of the Mythopoetic movement.

0:48:45.880 --> 0:48:48.040
<v Speaker 2>So a big chunk of this and these are some

0:48:48.120 --> 0:48:49.840
<v Speaker 2>of this is bl some of these guys outside of

0:48:49.880 --> 0:48:52.959
<v Speaker 2>bly Is they're they're making they're like putting a bunch

0:48:52.960 --> 0:48:56.239
<v Speaker 2>of like white accountants in sweat lodges that they make

0:48:56.280 --> 0:48:59.839
<v Speaker 2>the wrong way and lecturing them about you know, young

0:49:00.040 --> 0:49:03.080
<v Speaker 2>and Joseph Campbell, or they're like making them dressed like

0:49:03.120 --> 0:49:06.080
<v Speaker 2>cavemen while playing you know, African drums. There's a lot

0:49:06.120 --> 0:49:09.600
<v Speaker 2>of like weird, uncomfortable racism in the Mythopoetic men's movement

0:49:11.400 --> 0:49:14.120
<v Speaker 2>that said, it is less toxic than the men's rights

0:49:14.120 --> 0:49:17.960
<v Speaker 2>movement that would follow it. Things kind of get increasingly

0:49:18.120 --> 0:49:22.360
<v Speaker 2>aggressive and toxic from this point out. But Bli and

0:49:22.400 --> 0:49:27.319
<v Speaker 2>the initial mythopoetic influencers were not They saw themselves as therapists,

0:49:27.360 --> 0:49:29.239
<v Speaker 2>and again I don't think they were good at this,

0:49:29.600 --> 0:49:32.319
<v Speaker 2>But they were not political. So this was not a

0:49:32.320 --> 0:49:35.520
<v Speaker 2>conservative movement. They were not billing themselves as right wing.

0:49:35.840 --> 0:49:38.840
<v Speaker 2>They were not really like weighing in on culture war issues,

0:49:39.280 --> 0:49:41.480
<v Speaker 2>in part because the culture war didn't exist in the

0:49:41.520 --> 0:49:44.960
<v Speaker 2>same way then that it does now. And it's interesting

0:49:45.000 --> 0:49:49.880
<v Speaker 2>because Bli expressly says this is an a political movement.

0:49:50.520 --> 0:49:53.359
<v Speaker 2>You might criticize him because he had just written a

0:49:53.400 --> 0:49:57.160
<v Speaker 2>really kind of beautiful essay during the Vietnam War about

0:49:57.200 --> 0:50:01.040
<v Speaker 2>the cowardness of being a political but whatever. I found

0:50:01.040 --> 0:50:03.680
<v Speaker 2>an article from the Washington Post in nineteen ninety one

0:50:03.719 --> 0:50:05.680
<v Speaker 2>that talked to a number of men who had been

0:50:05.719 --> 0:50:08.760
<v Speaker 2>most active in the movement, and there's some interesting pieces

0:50:08.760 --> 0:50:12.279
<v Speaker 2>in there. Quote. An affirmation and strength comes from a

0:50:12.320 --> 0:50:15.399
<v Speaker 2>bonding between men that's impossible to put into words, says

0:50:15.560 --> 0:50:18.520
<v Speaker 2>ed Honold, the mild mannered federal lawyer and founder of

0:50:18.560 --> 0:50:21.239
<v Speaker 2>the Men's Council of Greater Washington, one of six such

0:50:21.280 --> 0:50:24.560
<v Speaker 2>local groups salving men's deep inner pain through communal rituals

0:50:24.800 --> 0:50:28.040
<v Speaker 2>of dancing, roaring, hugging, and weeping. The experience was known

0:50:28.080 --> 0:50:30.480
<v Speaker 2>to men in the past, but has been forgotten. American

0:50:30.520 --> 0:50:33.160
<v Speaker 2>men face a desperate situation and don't even know it.

0:50:33.440 --> 0:50:35.759
<v Speaker 2>There are large numbers of men wandering lost and some

0:50:36.040 --> 0:50:39.080
<v Speaker 2>personal wasteland of jobs with little meaning, personal lives with

0:50:39.120 --> 0:50:42.799
<v Speaker 2>little passion, and massive confusion about the reasons why. He

0:50:42.880 --> 0:50:46.200
<v Speaker 2>pauses thoughtfully and adds, there's a lot of hurting cowboys

0:50:46.200 --> 0:50:52.400
<v Speaker 2>out there. Now, these guys are not cowboys. These guys

0:50:52.440 --> 0:50:56.319
<v Speaker 2>were like middle managers at auto parts stores and shit like.

0:50:56.800 --> 0:51:01.520
<v Speaker 2>They are absolutely not hurting cowboys. And also, actual cowboys

0:51:01.560 --> 0:51:03.560
<v Speaker 2>aren't what this guy thought they were. But he's not

0:51:03.680 --> 0:51:07.480
<v Speaker 2>wrong again and saying that like, the situation of American

0:51:07.560 --> 0:51:11.200
<v Speaker 2>men was pretty unpleasant in the early nineteen nineties. They

0:51:11.280 --> 0:51:14.040
<v Speaker 2>were struggling against a capitalist culture that thrived on the

0:51:14.080 --> 0:51:16.640
<v Speaker 2>obliteration of meaning. However, men, of course, are not the

0:51:16.640 --> 0:51:19.040
<v Speaker 2>only ones suffering from this, nor are they suffering worse

0:51:19.080 --> 0:51:21.520
<v Speaker 2>than any other group of Americans. Right, this is just

0:51:21.640 --> 0:51:25.239
<v Speaker 2>alienation under capitalism, Part of what he's doing here that

0:51:25.400 --> 0:51:28.680
<v Speaker 2>is noteworthy and becomes a huge problem later on, is

0:51:28.680 --> 0:51:32.839
<v Speaker 2>he is identifying real problems with the society we live

0:51:32.840 --> 0:51:35.840
<v Speaker 2>in and then cutting men off from the rest of

0:51:35.840 --> 0:51:39.640
<v Speaker 2>that society and thus cutting off possibility of solidarity. So

0:51:39.719 --> 0:51:42.760
<v Speaker 2>you can't look at this kind of alienation and loss

0:51:42.760 --> 0:51:45.279
<v Speaker 2>of meaning and be like, wow, men and women and

0:51:45.400 --> 0:51:50.200
<v Speaker 2>everybody is being harmed by the meaninglessness this hole at

0:51:50.200 --> 0:51:52.520
<v Speaker 2>the center of our culture. You have to say men

0:51:52.600 --> 0:51:55.239
<v Speaker 2>are being harmed, and then that invites like, well, there

0:51:55.280 --> 0:51:57.200
<v Speaker 2>must be women that are doing it, and it must

0:51:57.239 --> 0:51:58.920
<v Speaker 2>we should be looking at how feminine I rather than

0:51:58.920 --> 0:51:59.920
<v Speaker 2>because he's a door for.

0:52:00.120 --> 0:52:04.960
<v Speaker 1>Toks right in It's interesting to see just how far

0:52:05.200 --> 0:52:08.759
<v Speaker 1>John Wayne's like reach impacts the way men think.

0:52:09.160 --> 0:52:12.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's a lot of hurting cowboys. Motherfucker, you are

0:52:12.840 --> 0:52:13.680
<v Speaker 2>not a cowboy.

0:52:13.920 --> 0:52:14.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:52:14.320 --> 0:52:18.000
<v Speaker 2>And by the way, cowboys were mostly like poor black

0:52:18.000 --> 0:52:21.120
<v Speaker 2>and Hispanic and indigenous men who were being exploited for

0:52:21.160 --> 0:52:24.319
<v Speaker 2>their labor. Like, yeah, this is none of what you're

0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:28.120
<v Speaker 2>saying means anything. You are entirely You're you're talking about

0:52:28.120 --> 0:52:30.560
<v Speaker 2>the emptiness of culture, and your understanding of history has

0:52:30.600 --> 0:52:35.240
<v Speaker 2>been entirely formed by the movies you watched, right, like anyway,

0:52:35.320 --> 0:52:39.800
<v Speaker 2>do better do better? Well, some of them will eventually

0:52:39.840 --> 0:52:41.680
<v Speaker 2>in the future. I think it would be interesting to

0:52:41.719 --> 0:52:44.400
<v Speaker 2>try and find out look into all these men's groups

0:52:44.440 --> 0:52:47.440
<v Speaker 2>in the Washington in the state of Washington in this

0:52:47.520 --> 0:52:49.400
<v Speaker 2>period of time and see how many of those guys

0:52:49.440 --> 0:52:52.360
<v Speaker 2>wound up being elders and the proud boys thirty years later.

0:52:52.400 --> 0:52:56.320
<v Speaker 2>But that's that's that's a more in depth work for

0:52:56.840 --> 0:53:00.040
<v Speaker 2>someone in the future if they want to do it.

0:53:00.120 --> 0:53:00.239
<v Speaker 3>So.

0:53:00.400 --> 0:53:03.480
<v Speaker 2>One of the most dangerous aspects of the mythopoetic men's

0:53:03.480 --> 0:53:08.200
<v Speaker 2>movement is that it was not as toxic as its descendants. Again,

0:53:08.280 --> 0:53:12.000
<v Speaker 2>it identifies real problems, but then it recasts them as

0:53:12.040 --> 0:53:15.160
<v Speaker 2>things that just men, mostly white men, are suffering from.

0:53:15.480 --> 0:53:19.160
<v Speaker 2>And the answer is like Kischi kind of racist LARPing

0:53:19.600 --> 0:53:23.200
<v Speaker 2>as member like that, that's basically what they're doing, right,

0:53:23.840 --> 0:53:27.879
<v Speaker 2>and this, yeah, it's it's it's it causes problems. Later on,

0:53:27.880 --> 0:53:29.800
<v Speaker 2>one of the most ridiculous aspects of the myth of

0:53:29.840 --> 0:53:32.759
<v Speaker 2>poetic men's movement was the creation of wing Span, the

0:53:32.880 --> 0:53:36.200
<v Speaker 2>Journal of the Male Spirit. Don't you just want to

0:53:36.239 --> 0:53:39.319
<v Speaker 2>sit down? I in with a copy of Wingspan read

0:53:39.320 --> 0:53:40.600
<v Speaker 2>out quotes to your buds.

0:53:41.360 --> 0:53:43.080
<v Speaker 5>I start every morning with it.

0:53:43.000 --> 0:53:46.000
<v Speaker 2>With it. Yeah yeah, just spread spread in your wings

0:53:46.600 --> 0:53:48.640
<v Speaker 2>So in the in the pre internet era, this acted

0:53:48.680 --> 0:53:50.800
<v Speaker 2>as a clearing house for the movement and a central

0:53:50.800 --> 0:53:54.640
<v Speaker 2>place where influencers could advertise their events. Quote. The last

0:53:54.640 --> 0:53:57.680
<v Speaker 2>issue of Wingspan lists dozens of publications and events for

0:53:57.719 --> 0:54:00.680
<v Speaker 2>men around the country, including a new Warrior training adventure

0:54:00.680 --> 0:54:04.240
<v Speaker 2>Weakened in Wisconsin, drumming and dancing for men in Massachusetts,

0:54:04.480 --> 0:54:07.160
<v Speaker 2>Brother to Brother in New York, Healing the Father Wound

0:54:07.200 --> 0:54:10.880
<v Speaker 2>in California, and Afro American Males at Risk in New Jersey.

0:54:11.200 --> 0:54:15.000
<v Speaker 2>A recent grandfather ceremony at the Fairfax Unitarian Men's Council

0:54:15.040 --> 0:54:17.600
<v Speaker 2>featured drumming on a five and a half foot thunderheart

0:54:17.680 --> 0:54:21.640
<v Speaker 2>drum in this area. There are three large councils in Virginia,

0:54:21.719 --> 0:54:24.680
<v Speaker 2>one in Gaithersburg and another in Baltimore. The Men's Council

0:54:24.719 --> 0:54:27.240
<v Speaker 2>of Greater Washington, which HONLD started in June of nineteen

0:54:27.280 --> 0:54:29.399
<v Speaker 2>eighty eight with fifty men, is the largest, with two

0:54:29.400 --> 0:54:32.480
<v Speaker 2>thousand members and fifty newcomers arriving for each monthly meeting.

0:54:33.280 --> 0:54:35.960
<v Speaker 2>Late one night in January at the Council's meeting in

0:54:36.000 --> 0:54:40.040
<v Speaker 2>the Washington Ethical Society Auditorium on Upper sixteenth Street. Honald

0:54:40.120 --> 0:54:42.480
<v Speaker 2>shed his Clarkkin image as he leads five hundred men

0:54:42.520 --> 0:54:45.359
<v Speaker 2>who are pounding drums and chanting. The sweating windows shape

0:54:45.400 --> 0:54:47.680
<v Speaker 2>with rhythmic thunder that reverberates up and down the street

0:54:47.719 --> 0:54:50.880
<v Speaker 2>as they raise Honald, gyrating and clapping high overhead and

0:54:50.920 --> 0:54:53.960
<v Speaker 2>parade him about the room. Then group leaders circulate with

0:54:54.040 --> 0:54:56.680
<v Speaker 2>large feathers and clay pots, wafting the smoke of burning

0:54:56.719 --> 0:54:58.799
<v Speaker 2>sage into the waiting faces in what is termed a

0:54:58.880 --> 0:55:01.680
<v Speaker 2>Native American ritual designed to put you in touch with

0:55:01.800 --> 0:55:07.560
<v Speaker 2>generations of male ancestors. So that's a little problematic, a

0:55:07.600 --> 0:55:12.839
<v Speaker 2>little bit just to scoche. A number of other masculinity

0:55:12.920 --> 0:55:15.920
<v Speaker 2>grifters followed. Bli, Robert Moore, and Douglas Gillette wrote the

0:55:15.920 --> 0:55:22.000
<v Speaker 2>bestseller King, Warrior, Magician Lover, which purported to that's that's

0:55:22.000 --> 0:55:24.760
<v Speaker 2>a title right there. I want to be a king, Warrior,

0:55:24.840 --> 0:55:28.280
<v Speaker 2>magician lover. And these are these are like the archetypes

0:55:28.320 --> 0:55:32.319
<v Speaker 2>of male masculinity. I don't think they're in order, because

0:55:32.360 --> 0:55:34.200
<v Speaker 2>you probably don't start as a king and end up

0:55:34.200 --> 0:55:35.920
<v Speaker 2>as a lover, although maybe you do that would be

0:55:35.960 --> 0:55:38.480
<v Speaker 2>progressive actually saying that you need to you need to

0:55:38.520 --> 0:55:41.440
<v Speaker 2>shed your your mastery and your sense of ownership in

0:55:41.520 --> 0:55:43.120
<v Speaker 2>order to become a lover. But I don't think that's

0:55:43.120 --> 0:55:46.920
<v Speaker 2>the point they're making. Moore is a Youngian analyst and

0:55:46.960 --> 0:55:51.120
<v Speaker 2>a professor of psychology. Gillette, like doctor Jordan Balthasar Peterson,

0:55:51.200 --> 0:55:53.080
<v Speaker 2>was a mythologist. I found a good write up that

0:55:53.120 --> 0:55:55.880
<v Speaker 2>described the main arguments in their book by Aaron Innes.

0:55:56.680 --> 0:55:59.120
<v Speaker 2>The book's second shared premise is that there are universal

0:55:59.120 --> 0:56:01.960
<v Speaker 2>male archetypes inherent to every male body person that are

0:56:01.960 --> 0:56:04.239
<v Speaker 2>represented in myth and story around the world, but are

0:56:04.239 --> 0:56:07.600
<v Speaker 2>suppressed in the dominant culture. The developmental history of every man,

0:56:07.680 --> 0:56:09.840
<v Speaker 2>says Mora Jellette, is in large part the story of

0:56:09.880 --> 0:56:13.160
<v Speaker 2>his failure or success at discovering within himself the archetypes

0:56:13.200 --> 0:56:17.120
<v Speaker 2>of mature masculinity. Following Jungian psychological theory, they claim that

0:56:17.160 --> 0:56:19.520
<v Speaker 2>if men are not given room to express these archetypes

0:56:19.520 --> 0:56:22.080
<v Speaker 2>in a healthy manner, they will act them out unconsciously

0:56:22.120 --> 0:56:24.640
<v Speaker 2>in ways that are damaging and violent, either directed outward

0:56:24.680 --> 0:56:28.160
<v Speaker 2>at other people as overtly hostile male behavior, or directed

0:56:28.200 --> 0:56:31.040
<v Speaker 2>inward which SAPs the vitality of the men involved. It's

0:56:31.040 --> 0:56:32.960
<v Speaker 2>worth noting that the authors of both books, as well

0:56:33.000 --> 0:56:35.040
<v Speaker 2>as their contemporary followers, seem a hell of a lot

0:56:35.040 --> 0:56:38.040
<v Speaker 2>more concerned about remedying male acting out that's turned inward

0:56:38.280 --> 0:56:40.800
<v Speaker 2>and creating male malaise than they are about male violence

0:56:40.840 --> 0:56:43.680
<v Speaker 2>directed towards others. Take the essay why Men Find It

0:56:43.719 --> 0:56:47.239
<v Speaker 2>So Hard to Feel by Mythopoetic Workshop leader Darren Austin Hall,

0:56:47.280 --> 0:56:49.279
<v Speaker 2>who says that women are at an advantage to men

0:56:49.400 --> 0:56:53.560
<v Speaker 2>spiritually and that minstrel cycles mean women are energetically connected

0:56:53.560 --> 0:56:56.000
<v Speaker 2>to cycles of the moon, which in turn is energetically

0:56:56.040 --> 0:56:58.719
<v Speaker 2>linked to our unconscious. This leads him to the conclusion

0:56:58.760 --> 0:57:01.400
<v Speaker 2>that the solution to warm angering tyrants in the world

0:57:01.480 --> 0:57:04.080
<v Speaker 2>is for women to use touch and the beautiful arts

0:57:04.120 --> 0:57:07.200
<v Speaker 2>of seductive love to disarm men, and that this will

0:57:07.239 --> 0:57:13.120
<v Speaker 2>solve male violence. Oh you girls just gotta touch us right,

0:57:13.160 --> 0:57:21.200
<v Speaker 2>and we'll stop doing genocides. Oh my god, that's incredible.

0:57:22.760 --> 0:57:25.400
<v Speaker 2>Hitler wouldn't have done all that bad stuff if I

0:57:25.440 --> 0:57:27.240
<v Speaker 2>get well, I mean he was dating his cousin, so

0:57:27.440 --> 0:57:31.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't really want to continue this joke. But what dating?

0:57:31.200 --> 0:57:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Dating is the wrong word? You know that story? Sophie

0:57:35.240 --> 0:57:36.760
<v Speaker 2>we've talked about Hitler and his cousin.

0:57:36.880 --> 0:57:39.120
<v Speaker 1>Oh, yeah, the one who killed herself.

0:57:39.200 --> 0:57:44.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a really bad story. Again, bringing up Hitler

0:57:44.320 --> 0:57:47.960
<v Speaker 2>and the cousin that he may be murdered is definitely

0:57:48.280 --> 0:57:50.200
<v Speaker 2>perhaps a good way of pointing out how fucked up

0:57:50.240 --> 0:57:52.280
<v Speaker 2>it is to say the problem of men's violence is

0:57:52.280 --> 0:57:56.640
<v Speaker 2>that women don't touch them the right way. It's pretty bad.

0:57:56.680 --> 0:57:59.040
<v Speaker 2>It also brings to mind I'm thinking about our Liberia

0:57:59.080 --> 0:58:03.160
<v Speaker 2>episodes and that sex strike that a bunch of women

0:58:03.200 --> 0:58:04.800
<v Speaker 2>went on to get the warlords to come to the

0:58:04.800 --> 0:58:08.000
<v Speaker 2>table to negotiate, and how it's like, literally the opposite.

0:58:08.040 --> 0:58:10.320
<v Speaker 2>It's it's number one, one of the most amazing stories

0:58:10.360 --> 0:58:12.360
<v Speaker 2>of activism I've ever heard of, And it's literally the

0:58:12.400 --> 0:58:16.120
<v Speaker 2>opposite of what these guys are saying. But I don't know,

0:58:16.880 --> 0:58:22.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, this is all so gross, yeah, ikey. So,

0:58:23.840 --> 0:58:26.760
<v Speaker 2>most regular listeners of the show are broadly familiar with

0:58:26.800 --> 0:58:30.200
<v Speaker 2>the way men's empowerment gurus and men's rights influencers evolved

0:58:30.200 --> 0:58:32.400
<v Speaker 2>over the last twenty years or so, a mix of

0:58:32.480 --> 0:58:36.120
<v Speaker 2>right wing culture war politics intersecting with very divorced men.

0:58:36.160 --> 0:58:38.440
<v Speaker 2>And I think we haven't talked about this yet. But

0:58:38.480 --> 0:58:41.960
<v Speaker 2>these guys are all extremely divorced, right, there's a there's

0:58:42.000 --> 0:58:44.880
<v Speaker 2>a lot of weakened dad energy in the sense.

0:58:45.120 --> 0:58:48.080
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, okay, that's why they're all so bitter.

0:58:48.240 --> 0:58:51.680
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Yeah, that there's just no way anything else is

0:58:51.760 --> 0:58:55.479
<v Speaker 2>going on here. Elon Musk would have been really, really

0:58:55.480 --> 0:58:57.360
<v Speaker 2>would have fit in at these Maybe it would have

0:58:57.600 --> 0:58:59.440
<v Speaker 2>kept him from buying Twitter. You know, I don't want

0:58:59.480 --> 0:59:04.520
<v Speaker 2>to say it was all toxic. So yeah, again, you

0:59:04.640 --> 0:59:08.439
<v Speaker 2>have most people listening are kind of familiar with where

0:59:08.440 --> 0:59:12.400
<v Speaker 2>things descend after the mythopoetic men's movement, which still kind

0:59:12.400 --> 0:59:14.640
<v Speaker 2>of is around, but more or less Peter's out over

0:59:14.680 --> 0:59:17.160
<v Speaker 2>the course of the nineties, and after that point, you've

0:59:17.200 --> 0:59:19.520
<v Speaker 2>got a mix of right wing culture war politics that

0:59:19.640 --> 0:59:23.320
<v Speaker 2>intersects with these very divorced dudes angry over custody, you know,

0:59:23.400 --> 0:59:25.920
<v Speaker 2>yelling about how men are discriminated against. And then we

0:59:25.960 --> 0:59:29.480
<v Speaker 2>have pick of course, starting in the early two thousands,

0:59:29.480 --> 0:59:32.560
<v Speaker 2>these pickup artists selling the secret to fucking chicks at bars,

0:59:33.040 --> 0:59:36.360
<v Speaker 2>and this all gets brewed up into this slurry, and

0:59:36.560 --> 0:59:38.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, you've got the pick up artists intersecting with

0:59:38.680 --> 0:59:41.480
<v Speaker 2>the men's rights activists intersecting with the right wing culture

0:59:41.520 --> 0:59:45.200
<v Speaker 2>war politicians intersecting with these literal Nazis, and from that

0:59:45.320 --> 0:59:47.920
<v Speaker 2>slurry we get gamer Gate and the alt right and

0:59:48.000 --> 0:59:51.200
<v Speaker 2>at least a portion of Donald Trump's political success. Right,

0:59:52.760 --> 0:59:59.000
<v Speaker 2>So that is the story. Well, I mean, this is

0:59:59.600 --> 1:00:01.360
<v Speaker 2>we haven't on into this on the show, and it

1:00:01.400 --> 1:00:02.880
<v Speaker 2>was something I was broadly aware of, but I didn't

1:00:02.920 --> 1:00:05.280
<v Speaker 2>know much about. But I think this is especially leading

1:00:05.280 --> 1:00:07.320
<v Speaker 2>into a story about a guy like Andrew Tait, who

1:00:07.400 --> 1:00:11.080
<v Speaker 2>is the most toxic, arguably calls himself the most like

1:00:11.200 --> 1:00:14.560
<v Speaker 2>toxic man on the internet, and is certainly an ARCon

1:00:14.840 --> 1:00:18.920
<v Speaker 2>of male toxicity. I think it kind of behooves us

1:00:18.920 --> 1:00:24.080
<v Speaker 2>to talk about what led to him because it's interesting. Anyway,

1:00:24.200 --> 1:00:26.560
<v Speaker 2>this is the end of episode one. Anybody anybody got

1:00:26.560 --> 1:00:28.080
<v Speaker 2>some thoughts here at the end of things.

1:00:29.560 --> 1:00:31.440
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I think that was a really great explainer

1:00:31.480 --> 1:00:35.480
<v Speaker 3>on kind of laying the groundwork for where the ideas

1:00:35.520 --> 1:00:38.480
<v Speaker 3>that eventually became Andrew Tait, you know, started and took

1:00:38.480 --> 1:00:42.080
<v Speaker 3>a foothold, and yeah, after you broke it down, it

1:00:42.400 --> 1:00:44.600
<v Speaker 3>makes sense and I can see how we got there,

1:00:45.240 --> 1:00:48.280
<v Speaker 3>you know, But it is interesting that you know, some

1:00:48.360 --> 1:00:51.320
<v Speaker 3>of the initial original points, like you said, were valid

1:00:51.360 --> 1:00:55.080
<v Speaker 3>and do kind of highlight some issues in our society

1:00:55.120 --> 1:00:58.080
<v Speaker 3>that maybe we should be focusing more on our addressing.

1:00:58.440 --> 1:01:01.440
<v Speaker 3>But also, as you said, it's not just a men's problem.

1:01:01.440 --> 1:01:04.200
<v Speaker 3>It's a problem for everyone, and everyone's being affected by it,

1:01:04.240 --> 1:01:06.920
<v Speaker 3>and we should be finding solidarity in that, and how

1:01:06.960 --> 1:01:10.240
<v Speaker 3>can we help everybody improve our lives, not just Oh,

1:01:10.320 --> 1:01:12.320
<v Speaker 3>it's a problem that's only affecting men.

1:01:12.400 --> 1:01:15.640
<v Speaker 5>So yeah, the women, you know, those are the yeah problem.

1:01:15.920 --> 1:01:19.200
<v Speaker 2>It's so interesting to me how many people see, oh,

1:01:19.520 --> 1:01:24.160
<v Speaker 2>men are being made to like spind their entire young

1:01:24.320 --> 1:01:28.120
<v Speaker 2>and mature adult lives, like laboring for somebody else's profit

1:01:28.200 --> 1:01:30.919
<v Speaker 2>in a factory whatever, and as a result, their kids

1:01:30.960 --> 1:01:33.040
<v Speaker 2>barely know them, which is a real problem. A lot

1:01:33.040 --> 1:01:36.320
<v Speaker 2>of kids raised and like the fifties, sixties, seventies have

1:01:36.960 --> 1:01:40.400
<v Speaker 2>and translating that as and like seeing you know, their

1:01:40.560 --> 1:01:43.439
<v Speaker 2>moms struggling to like keep the house going and raise

1:01:43.480 --> 1:01:46.280
<v Speaker 2>the kids through all that, and and the kids suffering,

1:01:46.320 --> 1:01:49.240
<v Speaker 2>and be like, well, this is clearly a men's problem. No,

1:01:49.400 --> 1:01:53.560
<v Speaker 2>this is this is a cultural problem. Everybody's problem. Is this.

1:01:55.120 --> 1:02:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, Sophie, I'm really not looking forward to what's coming next.

1:02:01.720 --> 1:02:03.800
<v Speaker 2>Oh, Sophie, it's going to be terrible and you're gonna

1:02:03.800 --> 1:02:04.880
<v Speaker 2>have to play a lot of clips.

1:02:05.520 --> 1:02:10.680
<v Speaker 1>So I'm so sorry listeners, but I'm sorry, but it

1:02:10.760 --> 1:02:12.640
<v Speaker 1>is necessary now.

1:02:12.520 --> 1:02:15.360
<v Speaker 2>You know what, I'm not sorry. I'll never apologize. That's

1:02:15.360 --> 1:02:16.640
<v Speaker 2>what I learned from Andrew Tait.

1:02:17.000 --> 1:02:18.680
<v Speaker 1>I think you wrote a really good script though.

1:02:19.360 --> 1:02:20.160
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Sophie.

1:02:20.400 --> 1:02:21.080
<v Speaker 1>Welcome Robert.

1:02:21.600 --> 1:02:25.160
<v Speaker 2>I love me too. All right, everybody that's going to

1:02:25.240 --> 1:02:28.360
<v Speaker 2>do it with us for us today at Behind the Bastards,

1:02:29.440 --> 1:02:32.680
<v Speaker 2>the podcast that will be recorded again immediately after this,

1:02:32.800 --> 1:02:35.200
<v Speaker 2>although I will probably start drinking because it is now

1:02:35.280 --> 1:02:46.320
<v Speaker 2>quite late, so huzza, huzza.

1:02:48.560 --> 1:02:56.040
<v Speaker 1>Oh no, no, no, no late. We ended the last

1:02:56.080 --> 1:02:58.560
<v Speaker 1>episode where I was like, wow, you're such a great writer.

1:02:58.680 --> 1:03:00.680
<v Speaker 1>That was so good. Thank you, Sony, come in and

1:03:00.680 --> 1:03:03.760
<v Speaker 1>then you do that fucking shit. What well Sylvie.

1:03:04.400 --> 1:03:07.080
<v Speaker 2>You you may not understand this because of your your

1:03:07.120 --> 1:03:10.760
<v Speaker 2>your womanliness, but I was embodying the archetype of the

1:03:10.800 --> 1:03:12.000
<v Speaker 2>magician wild man.

1:03:15.120 --> 1:03:16.840
<v Speaker 1>I don't you're fired.

1:03:19.080 --> 1:03:27.800
<v Speaker 2>That's fair, that's fair. Well, I have started drinking, got

1:03:27.800 --> 1:03:31.240
<v Speaker 2>a nice glass of port Rue Talisker here, and I

1:03:31.280 --> 1:03:33.280
<v Speaker 2>want to start this episode by getting a shout out

1:03:33.280 --> 1:03:35.840
<v Speaker 2>to a friend of the pod, former mayor of the

1:03:35.880 --> 1:03:39.960
<v Speaker 2>City of Portland, Sam Adams. Now y'all may not know Sam.

1:03:40.040 --> 1:03:43.480
<v Speaker 2>I think he was briefly on the show Portlandia. But

1:03:43.520 --> 1:03:45.800
<v Speaker 2>he was fired from being the mayor because he had

1:03:45.840 --> 1:03:51.760
<v Speaker 2>a sexual relationship with a teenage staffer, and then got

1:03:51.800 --> 1:03:54.960
<v Speaker 2>re hired by current Mayor of Portland, Ted Wheeler, who's

1:03:55.000 --> 1:03:57.440
<v Speaker 2>a giant piece of shit, Yeah, to be the mayor's

1:03:57.880 --> 1:04:02.800
<v Speaker 2>body man basically, And then this week Sam announced that

1:04:02.840 --> 1:04:06.080
<v Speaker 2>he was retiring because he had an iron deficiency, and

1:04:06.120 --> 1:04:08.720
<v Speaker 2>then Ted Wheeler told everyone, no, he's retiring it because

1:04:08.720 --> 1:04:11.400
<v Speaker 2>he wouldn't stop threatening and bullying women in the office.

1:04:11.720 --> 1:04:16.680
<v Speaker 2>Both of you guys suck and it's very funny this happened. Also,

1:04:16.960 --> 1:04:21.040
<v Speaker 2>I gotta say shout out to Sam Adams. Honestly, going

1:04:21.080 --> 1:04:27.240
<v Speaker 2>from sexually harassing a teenager to being a bully to

1:04:27.320 --> 1:04:29.560
<v Speaker 2>adult women, that's a step forward.

1:04:31.160 --> 1:04:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, disagree, Sophie, You're fine.

1:04:40.480 --> 1:04:43.320
<v Speaker 2>Look one of the two things listened to sex crime,

1:04:43.520 --> 1:04:47.240
<v Speaker 2>so that's a real personal growth for former Mayor of

1:04:47.280 --> 1:04:48.480
<v Speaker 2>Portland Sam Adams.

1:04:49.920 --> 1:04:52.720
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, Ted Wheeler, what the fuck is wrong with.

1:04:53.120 --> 1:04:56.720
<v Speaker 2>Great great hiring? Look, honestly, fuck Sam Adams. He's a

1:04:56.720 --> 1:05:00.320
<v Speaker 2>piece of shit, but incredible hiring decision from Ted Wheeler. Yeah,

1:05:00.360 --> 1:05:01.960
<v Speaker 2>let's get the guy in here who had sex with

1:05:02.000 --> 1:05:05.280
<v Speaker 2>a seventeen year old staffer's let's get him back in

1:05:05.360 --> 1:05:09.960
<v Speaker 2>city hall. We really need his insights. Great great work too.

1:05:10.080 --> 1:05:14.200
<v Speaker 1>It really shocked about You know how well liked he

1:05:14.280 --> 1:05:15.480
<v Speaker 1>is in the city of Portland.

1:05:16.000 --> 1:05:19.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean he's not. But you can let him

1:05:20.000 --> 1:05:22.440
<v Speaker 2>know how you feel about his decision to hire and

1:05:22.480 --> 1:05:24.760
<v Speaker 2>then fire Sam Adams at at Ted Wheeler.

1:05:24.840 --> 1:05:27.800
<v Speaker 1>Oh no, I remember when he got the tear gas

1:05:27.840 --> 1:05:29.040
<v Speaker 1>thrown on him house.

1:05:29.160 --> 1:05:33.720
<v Speaker 2>I do remember that. So I started talking about Ted

1:05:33.720 --> 1:05:36.720
<v Speaker 2>Wheeler and Sam Adams because they're both toxic men. And

1:05:36.840 --> 1:05:40.680
<v Speaker 2>today we are finally getting into the direct personal story

1:05:40.920 --> 1:05:42.919
<v Speaker 2>of one of the most toxic men of all time.

1:05:43.520 --> 1:05:49.520
<v Speaker 2>Emrie Andrew Tait the Third. Oh, that's quite a name.

1:05:49.640 --> 1:05:53.439
<v Speaker 2>That's quite a name. Now, Emory Andrew Tait the third

1:05:53.560 --> 1:05:57.320
<v Speaker 2>was born in Washington, d C. On December first, nineteen

1:05:57.400 --> 1:05:59.880
<v Speaker 2>eighty six. Now that fancy name might lead you to

1:06:00.200 --> 1:06:03.640
<v Speaker 2>that he came from some like British ash British British

1:06:03.680 --> 1:06:07.720
<v Speaker 2>ass noble family or some shit that sounds like a

1:06:07.800 --> 1:06:08.640
<v Speaker 2>duke's name.

1:06:08.480 --> 1:06:12.720
<v Speaker 5>To me, but very formal it sounds like old money

1:06:12.760 --> 1:06:13.200
<v Speaker 5>for sure.

1:06:13.400 --> 1:06:17.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, he is not. Now, most of the texture

1:06:17.760 --> 1:06:20.120
<v Speaker 2>that we get on his childhood comes from Andrew himself,

1:06:20.160 --> 1:06:23.680
<v Speaker 2>which is not ideal because he is a liar. But

1:06:23.720 --> 1:06:25.760
<v Speaker 2>there's just not a lot of other Again, I haven't

1:06:25.800 --> 1:06:28.400
<v Speaker 2>found no one's done like a critical biography. There's not

1:06:28.480 --> 1:06:30.960
<v Speaker 2>like a big, long New Yorker piece that really delves

1:06:30.960 --> 1:06:33.880
<v Speaker 2>into his backstory. So I kind of had to do

1:06:33.920 --> 1:06:36.160
<v Speaker 2>that myself to the best extent that I could do.

1:06:36.600 --> 1:06:39.680
<v Speaker 2>Now I did find one, and this is, honestly, the

1:06:39.720 --> 1:06:42.080
<v Speaker 2>only texture you get on his childhood that I have

1:06:42.160 --> 1:06:45.600
<v Speaker 2>come across is from an article he wrote for a

1:06:45.640 --> 1:06:50.120
<v Speaker 2>website for kickboxing that sells kickboxing gear, and the title

1:06:50.160 --> 1:06:52.720
<v Speaker 2>of it is the Life of Andrew King Kobra Tait.

1:06:53.040 --> 1:06:56.040
<v Speaker 2>So again, this is not a credible source, but the

1:06:56.080 --> 1:06:58.600
<v Speaker 2>way in which he writes about his childhood and what

1:06:58.680 --> 1:07:00.840
<v Speaker 2>he wants you to believe about it does tell you

1:07:00.880 --> 1:07:02.440
<v Speaker 2>a lot about the man. So we're still going to

1:07:02.440 --> 1:07:05.240
<v Speaker 2>be covering it, but do not take this as literal truth.

1:07:05.560 --> 1:07:09.160
<v Speaker 2>That should be obvious. Here's how he talks about his birth.

1:07:10.080 --> 1:07:12.320
<v Speaker 2>I was born in Washington, d C. At Walter Reed

1:07:12.640 --> 1:07:15.800
<v Speaker 2>Army Hospital, early one morning, December first, nineteen eighty six.

1:07:16.120 --> 1:07:18.400
<v Speaker 2>The doctor wanted to award me a perfect ten on

1:07:18.440 --> 1:07:24.200
<v Speaker 2>the birth scale, but settled on nine point five. Already, already.

1:07:24.320 --> 1:07:28.680
<v Speaker 2>That's the saddest thing anyone has ever bragged. That's so pathetic,

1:07:29.240 --> 1:07:30.840
<v Speaker 2>absolutely heartbreaking.

1:07:31.000 --> 1:07:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, that's on somebody's fucking like dating profile

1:07:38.120 --> 1:07:38.520
<v Speaker 1>for sure.

1:07:38.600 --> 1:07:42.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, two weeks overdue. But I was a nose. I

1:07:42.240 --> 1:07:45.360
<v Speaker 2>was nose breathing already as the doctor held me upside

1:07:45.360 --> 1:07:47.600
<v Speaker 2>down by my heels and my right fist was in

1:07:47.680 --> 1:07:50.520
<v Speaker 2>sight of my mouth as I suckled. The doctor pinched

1:07:50.520 --> 1:07:53.120
<v Speaker 2>my thigh to get a response, and I growled, knitting

1:07:53.120 --> 1:07:55.160
<v Speaker 2>my brow and trying to crane my head up to

1:07:55.160 --> 1:07:58.280
<v Speaker 2>see who had attacked me. The doctor paled, shocked at

1:07:58.320 --> 1:08:00.640
<v Speaker 2>my defensive powers. I did not cry.

1:08:01.240 --> 1:08:03.120
<v Speaker 5>Oh my god, I hate this.

1:08:05.000 --> 1:08:09.160
<v Speaker 2>That's so funny, though, bragging about how tough you were

1:08:09.200 --> 1:08:16.960
<v Speaker 2>as a baby as a baby, like wow, like believable,

1:08:17.640 --> 1:08:18.680
<v Speaker 2>was incredible.

1:08:19.000 --> 1:08:21.880
<v Speaker 1>And I was re reading what you what you just said,

1:08:22.000 --> 1:08:24.439
<v Speaker 1>and it's I'm gonna.

1:08:24.240 --> 1:08:26.840
<v Speaker 2>Tell y'all right now, because again, everything I found just

1:08:26.920 --> 1:08:29.680
<v Speaker 2>kind of glosses over his childhood. Because we don't have

1:08:29.760 --> 1:08:33.439
<v Speaker 2>a lot of like like detailed, like someone hasn't gone

1:08:33.439 --> 1:08:35.120
<v Speaker 2>through and like interviewed a shipload of people that he

1:08:35.200 --> 1:08:38.040
<v Speaker 2>knew was a little kid. And right, that hasn't happened yet.

1:08:38.080 --> 1:08:41.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure it will. And I was thinking, we're just

1:08:41.640 --> 1:08:43.680
<v Speaker 2>gonna have to brush over his childhood. And then I

1:08:43.720 --> 1:08:46.400
<v Speaker 2>found this article he wrote about himself on a kickboxing

1:08:46.439 --> 1:08:50.400
<v Speaker 2>website and it it made my week, made my week.

1:08:50.560 --> 1:08:51.479
<v Speaker 2>It's so funny.

1:08:51.479 --> 1:08:55.440
<v Speaker 1>It's about your own birth, like you did fucking anything.

1:08:56.360 --> 1:09:01.600
<v Speaker 2>So, if you're curious about Andrew's parentage, his mother, Eileen

1:09:02.600 --> 1:09:05.519
<v Speaker 2>is indeed English as shit, and she's a white lady.

1:09:05.600 --> 1:09:09.280
<v Speaker 2>She worked as a catering assistant. His father is Imor

1:09:09.479 --> 1:09:13.080
<v Speaker 2>Tate Junior and Emory what was Emory Tate junior? Emory

1:09:13.080 --> 1:09:16.040
<v Speaker 2>Tate Junior was a black American man and a Chicago

1:09:16.200 --> 1:09:18.479
<v Speaker 2>chess prodigy. Actually, up until a year or two ago,

1:09:18.840 --> 1:09:22.880
<v Speaker 2>Emory Tait was much more famous than Andrew Tait. We

1:09:22.920 --> 1:09:27.080
<v Speaker 2>actually had in the our work chat. Mia was shocked

1:09:27.120 --> 1:09:31.280
<v Speaker 2>to learn that Andrew Tait was Imrie Tate's son. I

1:09:31.280 --> 1:09:32.960
<v Speaker 2>had not heard of this guy. But I don't care

1:09:33.000 --> 1:09:37.400
<v Speaker 2>for chess or for yeah chess. Yeah. The Washington Post

1:09:37.479 --> 1:09:41.479
<v Speaker 2>describes Emory Tate Junior as a trailblazer for black chess players.

1:09:41.720 --> 1:09:44.080
<v Speaker 2>He was like one of the first. I don't know,

1:09:44.120 --> 1:09:46.680
<v Speaker 2>he may have been like the first, like super famous,

1:09:47.360 --> 1:09:52.120
<v Speaker 2>really well known, like black professional chess players. Again, I

1:09:52.120 --> 1:09:54.760
<v Speaker 2>don't understand chess. I don't understand why you would play

1:09:54.800 --> 1:09:56.960
<v Speaker 2>a war game that doesn't include orcs. But a lot

1:09:57.040 --> 1:09:58.920
<v Speaker 2>of people who love chess say that he was one

1:09:58.920 --> 1:10:01.559
<v Speaker 2>of the most fun players watch. I did read a

1:10:01.600 --> 1:10:04.760
<v Speaker 2>lot of like writing like fans and like reddit and

1:10:04.760 --> 1:10:07.280
<v Speaker 2>stuff talking about Emory Tate, and one thing they all

1:10:07.320 --> 1:10:09.839
<v Speaker 2>seem to agree on is he was just super entertaining

1:10:09.880 --> 1:10:10.559
<v Speaker 2>to watch play.

1:10:10.640 --> 1:10:14.000
<v Speaker 1>Yes, you, why does when you type in Emory Tate

1:10:14.200 --> 1:10:17.400
<v Speaker 1>into Google, why does the first suggested thing come up

1:10:17.439 --> 1:10:23.640
<v Speaker 1>as CIA? What I typed Emory Tate into Google and

1:10:23.680 --> 1:10:29.120
<v Speaker 1>the first thing that autofields is CIA? Hmm, oh it

1:10:29.240 --> 1:10:30.480
<v Speaker 1>was in the CIA?

1:10:30.560 --> 1:10:34.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, Andrew says that he was in the CIA.

1:10:34.600 --> 1:10:35.599
<v Speaker 1>Is that what's happening?

1:10:36.320 --> 1:10:38.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he was. So he was in the Air Force

1:10:38.800 --> 1:10:43.280
<v Speaker 2>as a sergeant and he served as a linguished linguist.

1:10:43.439 --> 1:10:47.760
<v Speaker 2>There's not actually hard evidence that he was in the

1:10:47.760 --> 1:10:51.960
<v Speaker 2>CIA that I have seen, Like this is based on again,

1:10:52.080 --> 1:10:56.040
<v Speaker 2>Andrew is kind of when we're about to get into this,

1:10:56.120 --> 1:11:00.280
<v Speaker 2>he's really plumping his dad's reputation to make him like

1:11:00.360 --> 1:11:02.240
<v Speaker 2>not just a chess guy, but a bad ass.

1:11:02.240 --> 1:11:05.040
<v Speaker 1>So may or may not beat somebody.

1:11:04.479 --> 1:11:08.439
<v Speaker 2>I have not seen any independent confirmation that he worked

1:11:08.439 --> 1:11:12.160
<v Speaker 2>in the CIA. Maybe he did a lot of guys

1:11:12.200 --> 1:11:15.439
<v Speaker 2>in that period who like did some sort of like

1:11:15.520 --> 1:11:17.720
<v Speaker 2>weird work where they would have just been listed as

1:11:17.720 --> 1:11:20.439
<v Speaker 2>a state department employee. So it's not impossible. But I

1:11:21.080 --> 1:11:24.160
<v Speaker 2>have not come across confirmation that he was in the CIA.

1:11:25.479 --> 1:11:28.400
<v Speaker 2>So the Washington Post in most sources who write about

1:11:28.520 --> 1:11:31.200
<v Speaker 2>Andrew's dad will call him a grand master at chess.

1:11:31.280 --> 1:11:33.519
<v Speaker 2>This is not entirely true he was. I mean, this

1:11:33.600 --> 1:11:36.200
<v Speaker 2>is not true. He was an international master, which is

1:11:36.200 --> 1:11:38.439
<v Speaker 2>a lesser rank. He never quite made it to grand master.

1:11:38.880 --> 1:11:41.920
<v Speaker 2>I found again chess discussions online by nerds about chess

1:11:41.920 --> 1:11:43.439
<v Speaker 2>who will say that he didn't make it to grand

1:11:43.520 --> 1:11:46.760
<v Speaker 2>master mainly because he wasn't able to. He wasn't willing

1:11:46.800 --> 1:11:48.479
<v Speaker 2>to do like certain things that you have to do

1:11:48.560 --> 1:11:50.439
<v Speaker 2>to do that. But he was. He had a really

1:11:50.439 --> 1:11:53.559
<v Speaker 2>good record. He regularly beat grand masters. Some people say

1:11:53.560 --> 1:11:55.920
<v Speaker 2>he was as good as Bobby Fisher. Again, I have

1:11:56.040 --> 1:11:58.160
<v Speaker 2>no way to evaluate any of this.

1:11:58.280 --> 1:12:02.200
<v Speaker 1>Robert taking a big anti chest chess approach here.

1:12:02.680 --> 1:12:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Again, there's no battle tanks in chess. There's no titans

1:12:06.880 --> 1:12:11.519
<v Speaker 2>with chainsaw hands. The ultimate game of strategy is still

1:12:11.560 --> 1:12:15.320
<v Speaker 2>Warhammer forty thousand. I think we can all agree on that. Yes,

1:12:15.439 --> 1:12:19.400
<v Speaker 2>of course it's been true for generations. But anyway, Emory

1:12:19.400 --> 1:12:23.040
<v Speaker 2>Tate great at chess. A chess historian wrote a book

1:12:23.040 --> 1:12:25.200
<v Speaker 2>about him which gives us some idea as to where

1:12:25.240 --> 1:12:27.919
<v Speaker 2>Andrew Tate got his sense of style and personal branding.

1:12:28.360 --> 1:12:32.120
<v Speaker 2>The title was triple xclam with three explaanation points, The

1:12:32.200 --> 1:12:36.360
<v Speaker 2>Life and Games of Emory Tate, Chess Warrior, which is

1:12:37.160 --> 1:12:41.200
<v Speaker 2>kind of fun. I think he literally died at the

1:12:41.240 --> 1:12:43.640
<v Speaker 2>table in twenty fifteen playing a game of chess. Like

1:12:43.680 --> 1:12:47.320
<v Speaker 2>this man, This motherfucker loved chess. He wears a white

1:12:47.320 --> 1:12:49.800
<v Speaker 2>fedora with a gold band on the cover, which also

1:12:49.920 --> 1:12:51.840
<v Speaker 2>gives you a little bit of insight into where Andrew

1:12:51.880 --> 1:12:55.839
<v Speaker 2>Tate gets some of his taste in style. And Andrew

1:12:55.880 --> 1:12:59.280
<v Speaker 2>idolizes his father, and he does it particularly. I'm not

1:12:59.320 --> 1:13:01.680
<v Speaker 2>going to pretend to know the man's emotional state, but

1:13:01.760 --> 1:13:05.240
<v Speaker 2>in his public writing, he particularly celebrates his dad. In

1:13:05.280 --> 1:13:09.200
<v Speaker 2>that Kickboxing website article twenty twenty two, Andrew Tait noted

1:13:09.200 --> 1:13:13.120
<v Speaker 2>this about the male side of his family background. My grandfather,

1:13:13.200 --> 1:13:16.080
<v Speaker 2>Imrie A. Tait Esquire, fought in World War Two before

1:13:16.080 --> 1:13:19.240
<v Speaker 2>becoming a lawyer in Chicago during racially charged times as

1:13:19.280 --> 1:13:21.280
<v Speaker 2>a black man. This shaped his worldview, and he was

1:13:21.360 --> 1:13:23.960
<v Speaker 2>very strict, very hard. Indeed, as a boy he pushed

1:13:23.960 --> 1:13:26.200
<v Speaker 2>a plow with meal through the hard clay dirt of Georgia.

1:13:26.280 --> 1:13:28.479
<v Speaker 2>Forced to work on the farm at age twelve, he

1:13:28.520 --> 1:13:31.160
<v Speaker 2>pushed a plow that only grown men normally handled. Then

1:13:31.200 --> 1:13:33.200
<v Speaker 2>he ran away, never to return to the farm. He

1:13:33.200 --> 1:13:35.320
<v Speaker 2>did some bare knuckled fist fights as young man, and

1:13:35.360 --> 1:13:38.519
<v Speaker 2>distinguish himself hand to hand during the war years. And

1:13:38.560 --> 1:13:41.679
<v Speaker 2>again I'm sure parts of that are true. Everything about

1:13:41.720 --> 1:13:43.800
<v Speaker 2>his dad and his grandpa always veers into how good

1:13:43.800 --> 1:13:45.600
<v Speaker 2>they were at hand to hand combat, and there is

1:13:45.920 --> 1:13:49.479
<v Speaker 2>no evidence of this. Like the stuff about working on

1:13:49.520 --> 1:13:53.240
<v Speaker 2>a farm, Yeah, that seems plausible. The stuff about how

1:13:53.320 --> 1:13:56.360
<v Speaker 2>we fought the Nazis hand to hand, I don't know, maybe,

1:13:56.600 --> 1:13:58.280
<v Speaker 2>but that actually doesn't happen often.

1:13:58.800 --> 1:14:00.920
<v Speaker 3>That just gives me, like my dad can beat up

1:14:00.960 --> 1:14:03.000
<v Speaker 3>your dad vibes like yeah, it sounds like something like

1:14:03.000 --> 1:14:04.080
<v Speaker 3>a kid would say.

1:14:04.280 --> 1:14:07.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah about his own birth.

1:14:07.880 --> 1:14:09.760
<v Speaker 2>And man, it's like, you don't have to lie about

1:14:09.800 --> 1:14:12.720
<v Speaker 2>him fist fighting Nazis. It's okay if he just shot them.

1:14:12.760 --> 1:14:15.160
<v Speaker 2>A lot of dudes did and that was rat Like,

1:14:16.560 --> 1:14:18.880
<v Speaker 2>he doesn't have to be great at punching just because

1:14:18.920 --> 1:14:20.920
<v Speaker 2>you grew up to punch people for a living. That's

1:14:21.000 --> 1:14:24.760
<v Speaker 2>kind of a weird thing to focus on, Andrew, but

1:14:24.840 --> 1:14:27.400
<v Speaker 2>he loves talking about how good his dad and grandpa

1:14:27.520 --> 1:14:31.320
<v Speaker 2>were at fighting. Quote his son. My dad, Emrie A.

1:14:31.400 --> 1:14:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Tait Junior, was a young athlete, learning wrestling in school

1:14:34.160 --> 1:14:38.639
<v Speaker 2>and developing the early forms of tate shin kai strikes

1:14:38.760 --> 1:14:41.200
<v Speaker 2>as a youth, which I guess is his own martial

1:14:41.320 --> 1:14:44.800
<v Speaker 2>arts thing. His job in the military for eleven years

1:14:44.800 --> 1:14:46.920
<v Speaker 2>took him on many adventures and little is known for

1:14:46.960 --> 1:14:49.680
<v Speaker 2>sure except that my dad never loses. He is my

1:14:49.800 --> 1:14:52.760
<v Speaker 2>role model in many ways, even as I write poetry

1:14:52.800 --> 1:14:56.880
<v Speaker 2>like he does. So I mean, also, I think his

1:14:57.000 --> 1:14:59.400
<v Speaker 2>dad would have been in the military, let me double

1:14:59.479 --> 1:15:06.720
<v Speaker 2>check here, Yeah, during Vietnam, which would mean that he did,

1:15:06.720 --> 1:15:14.880
<v Speaker 2>in fact lose. So sorry, Andrew, but I don't want

1:15:14.880 --> 1:15:18.280
<v Speaker 2>to be mean to Emory Tait because well, this is

1:15:18.280 --> 1:15:22.160
<v Speaker 2>a little bit his fault. So yeah. The closest thing

1:15:22.200 --> 1:15:25.880
<v Speaker 2>that Andrew has written or said that comes close to

1:15:26.040 --> 1:15:29.160
<v Speaker 2>being emotionally impactful at all is when he writes about

1:15:29.160 --> 1:15:31.640
<v Speaker 2>his father. I will give him that he writes with

1:15:31.800 --> 1:15:36.559
<v Speaker 2>like some amount of actual sincerity about his feelings towards

1:15:36.560 --> 1:15:38.479
<v Speaker 2>his dad, And I'm going to give you an example

1:15:38.520 --> 1:15:41.040
<v Speaker 2>of that now. I never learned to cry for attention.

1:15:41.200 --> 1:15:43.960
<v Speaker 2>I only used grunts to indicate hunger or discomfort, but

1:15:44.000 --> 1:15:46.679
<v Speaker 2>mostly I was silent. I had a large new crib,

1:15:46.760 --> 1:15:48.519
<v Speaker 2>but most every night I spent a sleep on my

1:15:48.600 --> 1:15:51.360
<v Speaker 2>dad's chest. He would place me there and sleep still,

1:15:51.479 --> 1:15:53.479
<v Speaker 2>never moving in the night, and our heart beats were

1:15:53.560 --> 1:15:54.400
<v Speaker 2>and are as one.

1:15:55.080 --> 1:15:59.320
<v Speaker 1>I just think a baby like a yeah.

1:15:59.240 --> 1:16:06.320
<v Speaker 2>Just too angry to sit cry now. Bits like this

1:16:06.479 --> 1:16:09.840
<v Speaker 2>do contrast with passages where Andrew will relate stories about

1:16:09.880 --> 1:16:13.360
<v Speaker 2>his dad that sound kind of abusive. Quote. I learned

1:16:13.400 --> 1:16:16.320
<v Speaker 2>to defend myself soon after I could walk, long before

1:16:16.360 --> 1:16:19.000
<v Speaker 2>my first punch into a pillow, I learned to balance,

1:16:19.040 --> 1:16:21.639
<v Speaker 2>had to step backward after being pushed gently in the chest.

1:16:22.000 --> 1:16:23.800
<v Speaker 2>Dad made a game of it, a game, which ended

1:16:23.840 --> 1:16:26.040
<v Speaker 2>with a savage shove across a living room, sending me

1:16:26.040 --> 1:16:29.040
<v Speaker 2>into a dramatic backpedal. I stopped myself with my head

1:16:29.080 --> 1:16:31.559
<v Speaker 2>one inch from cracking into the far wall. That was

1:16:31.560 --> 1:16:34.640
<v Speaker 2>the final test. Kind of sounds like your dad was

1:16:34.680 --> 1:16:36.960
<v Speaker 2>just shoving you because he was pissed and drew it.

1:16:37.600 --> 1:16:38.840
<v Speaker 1>Kind of sounds not great, bro.

1:16:39.040 --> 1:16:41.000
<v Speaker 2>Do you need to talk about this, man?

1:16:41.360 --> 1:16:46.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no talking, just a yeah.

1:16:46.920 --> 1:16:48.759
<v Speaker 5>Just angry, just shoving.

1:16:49.520 --> 1:16:52.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, look, if I was going to raise a child,

1:16:52.120 --> 1:16:54.800
<v Speaker 2>I'd be lying if I said that the shoving method

1:16:54.880 --> 1:16:56.920
<v Speaker 2>didn't hold some appeal, because I do a lot of

1:16:56.960 --> 1:16:59.600
<v Speaker 2>other things by shoving. It's how I move my furniture,

1:17:00.080 --> 1:17:03.160
<v Speaker 2>it's how I record podcasts. I'm shoving a walking desk

1:17:03.240 --> 1:17:06.519
<v Speaker 2>around the room right now. We actually Danil spends like

1:17:06.560 --> 1:17:09.040
<v Speaker 2>thirteen hours a week editing that out before we can

1:17:09.080 --> 1:17:12.960
<v Speaker 2>even get the audio off off to Chris, that's most

1:17:13.000 --> 1:17:17.080
<v Speaker 2>of his job. It's it's really it's a good part

1:17:17.080 --> 1:17:17.559
<v Speaker 2>of our work.

1:17:17.600 --> 1:17:19.519
<v Speaker 1>And remind me to tell you about the time when

1:17:19.600 --> 1:17:22.240
<v Speaker 1>Robert got a foot massager and he refused to not

1:17:22.400 --> 1:17:30.320
<v Speaker 1>use it while recording, and it would go directly into

1:17:30.360 --> 1:17:34.320
<v Speaker 1>the mic, and like there's no, there's no hazard. Pay

1:17:34.439 --> 1:17:41.360
<v Speaker 1>that's enough, truly, don't take it out. I'm sorry, And

1:17:41.479 --> 1:17:43.040
<v Speaker 1>that was my fault for bringing it up.

1:17:43.640 --> 1:17:46.040
<v Speaker 2>That was your fault for bringing it up, but more

1:17:46.080 --> 1:17:52.360
<v Speaker 2>importantly not my fault, because nothing is speaking of toxic masculinity.

1:17:52.439 --> 1:17:53.720
<v Speaker 2>Let's get back to Andrew Tate.

1:17:54.240 --> 1:17:54.519
<v Speaker 1>Cool.

1:17:55.240 --> 1:17:58.760
<v Speaker 2>So, Andrew was raised initially in the DC area and

1:17:58.800 --> 1:18:01.680
<v Speaker 2>then Indiana, and he seemed to want to follow in

1:18:01.720 --> 1:18:04.599
<v Speaker 2>his father's footsteps. He started playing chess at age three,

1:18:04.680 --> 1:18:07.920
<v Speaker 2>he started competing at five, and he eventually competed in

1:18:07.960 --> 1:18:10.920
<v Speaker 2>adult tournaments while still a child. And this is where

1:18:11.000 --> 1:18:13.880
<v Speaker 2>we get the very first news article on Andrew Tate,

1:18:13.960 --> 1:18:16.719
<v Speaker 2>who at that point was referred to as Emerie A Tait.

1:18:17.560 --> 1:18:19.280
<v Speaker 2>It is a local news piece, and this is the

1:18:19.320 --> 1:18:22.800
<v Speaker 2>first like objective ish piece of journalism that it's not

1:18:22.880 --> 1:18:25.639
<v Speaker 2>just like him writing about his background. And it's really

1:18:25.680 --> 1:18:29.040
<v Speaker 2>the only insight we get into his childhood that doesn't

1:18:29.080 --> 1:18:33.639
<v Speaker 2>come directly from a Tate. It's again a local news piece.

1:18:34.000 --> 1:18:36.200
<v Speaker 2>The news in his town, which is like South Bend,

1:18:36.760 --> 1:18:39.320
<v Speaker 2>was talking about the release there was a movie coming

1:18:39.360 --> 1:18:41.880
<v Speaker 2>out about Bobby Fisher, who I guess was good at chess,

1:18:42.960 --> 1:18:44.840
<v Speaker 2>and so they were writing about that, and they wanted

1:18:44.880 --> 1:18:48.280
<v Speaker 2>a human interest piece, so they talked about young Andrew Tate,

1:18:48.320 --> 1:18:50.920
<v Speaker 2>who was six when they wrote this article. He had

1:18:50.960 --> 1:18:53.759
<v Speaker 2>started a chess club in South Bend with some other kids,

1:18:53.800 --> 1:18:56.040
<v Speaker 2>and he had taught them chess because he wanted people

1:18:56.040 --> 1:18:59.040
<v Speaker 2>to play against. It includes the article a couple of

1:18:59.080 --> 1:19:02.439
<v Speaker 2>quotes that are interesting. Every kid wants to be like

1:19:02.479 --> 1:19:05.639
<v Speaker 2>his dad, the elder Tate said, but father had recently

1:19:05.680 --> 1:19:09.599
<v Speaker 2>limited son's playing time, encouraging other activities. I don't think

1:19:09.640 --> 1:19:11.479
<v Speaker 2>that a kid his age should spend so much time

1:19:11.479 --> 1:19:13.599
<v Speaker 2>playing chess. As a parent, I'd like to see him

1:19:13.600 --> 1:19:16.000
<v Speaker 2>become a top level player, but I realized there's so

1:19:16.080 --> 1:19:18.479
<v Speaker 2>much more to life than just chess. He learned how

1:19:18.520 --> 1:19:20.679
<v Speaker 2>to swim this summer, and he plays with his friends

1:19:20.680 --> 1:19:23.679
<v Speaker 2>and stuff like that. Andrew, however, says he plays because

1:19:23.720 --> 1:19:26.240
<v Speaker 2>he's bored all the time. Most of the time, I

1:19:26.240 --> 1:19:28.000
<v Speaker 2>am bored, and that's the only thing I want to

1:19:28.040 --> 1:19:33.479
<v Speaker 2>do most So Yeah, interesting, there's some insight into the

1:19:33.520 --> 1:19:38.439
<v Speaker 2>actual kid there. That is a response I understand from

1:19:38.479 --> 1:19:40.320
<v Speaker 2>a kid like I am bored all the time. This

1:19:40.439 --> 1:19:43.920
<v Speaker 2>is the only thing that I like. It Also, you know,

1:19:45.160 --> 1:19:47.479
<v Speaker 2>gives you a little bit of a look into like

1:19:47.720 --> 1:19:49.920
<v Speaker 2>there's for whatever reason, one of the things I take

1:19:49.960 --> 1:19:52.760
<v Speaker 2>with in this article is that Imory Tait didn't want

1:19:52.760 --> 1:19:56.280
<v Speaker 2>his son to follow him as a chess guy. It

1:19:56.360 --> 1:19:59.840
<v Speaker 2>might have been some insecurity about not wanting his kid

1:19:59.880 --> 1:20:01.680
<v Speaker 2>to be better than him, or it may have just

1:20:01.760 --> 1:20:04.960
<v Speaker 2>been understandably like, you know, I never made a lot

1:20:04.960 --> 1:20:06.720
<v Speaker 2>of money playing chess. I want you to do something

1:20:06.760 --> 1:20:08.479
<v Speaker 2>else with your life. I don't want you to like

1:20:08.880 --> 1:20:10.120
<v Speaker 2>be locked into this thing.

1:20:10.560 --> 1:20:10.760
<v Speaker 1>I know.

1:20:10.840 --> 1:20:14.880
<v Speaker 2>There's some interesting questions that answers or asks. The author

1:20:14.880 --> 1:20:17.400
<v Speaker 2>of this article notes that Andrew had just competed in

1:20:17.400 --> 1:20:20.040
<v Speaker 2>his first adult chess tournament where he had and again

1:20:20.479 --> 1:20:23.960
<v Speaker 2>Andrews later on, when he starts putting out propaganda trying

1:20:23.960 --> 1:20:25.760
<v Speaker 2>to make himself do a badass, will point out that

1:20:25.800 --> 1:20:28.240
<v Speaker 2>like at age six, he was playing in adult chess tournaments.

1:20:28.560 --> 1:20:31.240
<v Speaker 2>He did lose three out of five games, and his

1:20:31.360 --> 1:20:34.200
<v Speaker 2>dad eventually had to pull him out of the tournament because, quote,

1:20:34.400 --> 1:20:36.719
<v Speaker 2>he got very upset because he thought he was failing.

1:20:37.040 --> 1:20:39.759
<v Speaker 2>So Emory withdrew his son from the game to quote

1:20:39.800 --> 1:20:42.240
<v Speaker 2>save him from crying in front of all those people.

1:20:43.080 --> 1:20:46.880
<v Speaker 2>And we're not keyed into what precisely happened there?

1:20:46.960 --> 1:20:49.640
<v Speaker 1>Whoa, whoa, whoa. I thought he didn't cry. Why are

1:20:49.640 --> 1:20:50.519
<v Speaker 1>we worried about that?

1:20:51.080 --> 1:20:53.960
<v Speaker 2>It sure seems like his dad said he did. Yeah, whoa,

1:20:54.000 --> 1:20:58.400
<v Speaker 2>whoa whoa fact check and again, Yeah, I'm gonna guess

1:20:58.400 --> 1:21:00.800
<v Speaker 2>one of two things happened there. Either Andrew was just

1:21:00.840 --> 1:21:02.920
<v Speaker 2>throwing a fit because he was losing, and his dad

1:21:03.000 --> 1:21:04.639
<v Speaker 2>was like, well, you can't be at a chess tournament

1:21:04.640 --> 1:21:06.559
<v Speaker 2>if you're gonna throw a fit when you lose. Or

1:21:07.280 --> 1:21:09.720
<v Speaker 2>Andrew was doing okay and wanted to keep playing, and

1:21:09.800 --> 1:21:12.160
<v Speaker 2>his dad was angry that he was losing and didn't

1:21:12.160 --> 1:21:16.880
<v Speaker 2>want him to keep, like risk losing again, even though

1:21:17.080 --> 1:21:19.160
<v Speaker 2>three to two is not a bad record for a six.

1:21:19.080 --> 1:21:21.320
<v Speaker 5>Year old player six playing against a.

1:21:21.600 --> 1:21:24.439
<v Speaker 2>Fither way, we don't know which of those is the case.

1:21:24.560 --> 1:21:30.120
<v Speaker 2>Either possibility is interesting to me. Andrew's parents had another boy, Tristan,

1:21:30.240 --> 1:21:32.639
<v Speaker 2>two years after Andrew was born, and the two brothers

1:21:32.720 --> 1:21:35.800
<v Speaker 2>have been inseparable their whole lives. They played chess together,

1:21:35.920 --> 1:21:39.519
<v Speaker 2>but Tristan never competed. They would later kickbox together, but

1:21:39.560 --> 1:21:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Tristan never competed. He's like always there, but he also

1:21:43.200 --> 1:21:45.880
<v Speaker 2>doesn't seem to get to live a full life because

1:21:45.920 --> 1:21:49.439
<v Speaker 2>he exists purely in his brother's shadow, as like an

1:21:49.439 --> 1:21:52.360
<v Speaker 2>agent of his greatness. It's kind of a weird relationship

1:21:52.600 --> 1:21:56.599
<v Speaker 2>for Tristan, but I don't think he's self aware enough

1:21:56.600 --> 1:21:59.439
<v Speaker 2>to understand that it's weird. One photo in the news

1:21:59.600 --> 1:22:02.320
<v Speaker 2>in that new article shows six year old Andrew focused

1:22:02.360 --> 1:22:04.559
<v Speaker 2>in the picture frame, face taking up a third of

1:22:04.600 --> 1:22:08.200
<v Speaker 2>the frame playing chess. Well, just Tristan's hand is visible

1:22:08.200 --> 1:22:10.599
<v Speaker 2>in the right third, and as the brothers grew up,

1:22:10.680 --> 1:22:14.160
<v Speaker 2>Andrew would consistently stay in focus. Well, Tristan would always

1:22:14.160 --> 1:22:15.479
<v Speaker 2>just sort of be off to the side.

1:22:16.360 --> 1:22:19.080
<v Speaker 1>Is that and that's true to this day, right to

1:22:19.280 --> 1:22:19.880
<v Speaker 1>this day.

1:22:20.320 --> 1:22:21.800
<v Speaker 2>I have I don't have it. In the script we

1:22:21.800 --> 1:22:23.720
<v Speaker 2>could play it. There's a very funny video of his

1:22:23.800 --> 1:22:26.599
<v Speaker 2>brother like telling him to go out to like film

1:22:26.640 --> 1:22:29.080
<v Speaker 2>their cars for this video they're doing about how nice

1:22:29.080 --> 1:22:31.280
<v Speaker 2>their life is. And then when his brother goes out,

1:22:31.600 --> 1:22:34.280
<v Speaker 2>Andrew cuts the feed just to be like, Aha, fuck you,

1:22:34.320 --> 1:22:36.040
<v Speaker 2>this is my show. I don't have to like let

1:22:36.040 --> 1:22:38.080
<v Speaker 2>you do anything if I don't want to. And it's

1:22:38.120 --> 1:22:40.479
<v Speaker 2>like weirdly abusive because they're both men who were in

1:22:40.520 --> 1:22:44.720
<v Speaker 2>their thirties, like Tristan, you don't have to take that

1:22:45.040 --> 1:22:50.799
<v Speaker 2>like things got harder for them after South Bend because

1:22:50.840 --> 1:22:53.320
<v Speaker 2>they their mom and dad. It's not a good marriage,

1:22:53.640 --> 1:22:57.479
<v Speaker 2>and they divorce. I have found very little detail about

1:22:57.479 --> 1:23:00.240
<v Speaker 2>why that divorce happened. We can infer the that it

1:23:00.280 --> 1:23:02.840
<v Speaker 2>was an extremely painful time for Andrew, and this is

1:23:02.880 --> 1:23:05.759
<v Speaker 2>all he's willing to write about it. Dad was working

1:23:05.760 --> 1:23:09.080
<v Speaker 2>minimum wage jobs overtime since his military career had been ended.

1:23:09.320 --> 1:23:11.479
<v Speaker 2>Both mom and dad worked so that we could survive.

1:23:11.640 --> 1:23:13.640
<v Speaker 2>Things became so hard that we decided to go to

1:23:13.720 --> 1:23:17.599
<v Speaker 2>England and try a life there only minus dad. And

1:23:18.920 --> 1:23:21.960
<v Speaker 2>he's not willing to write like, you know, the marriage

1:23:22.000 --> 1:23:25.559
<v Speaker 2>didn't work out or and again we don't know why.

1:23:25.680 --> 1:23:29.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to avoid like theorizing what might have happened there,

1:23:29.439 --> 1:23:32.240
<v Speaker 2>but this is clearly he idolizes his dad and he's

1:23:32.600 --> 1:23:37.360
<v Speaker 2>taken away from him forever basically, and obviously Mom might

1:23:37.400 --> 1:23:38.800
<v Speaker 2>have had a perfectly good reason for doing that. I'm

1:23:38.840 --> 1:23:41.360
<v Speaker 2>not trying to be critical. We just actually don't really know.

1:23:42.439 --> 1:23:45.120
<v Speaker 2>But this is definitely like the fact that he's not

1:23:45.160 --> 1:23:48.080
<v Speaker 2>willing to even acknowledge the basics of what happened kind

1:23:48.080 --> 1:23:53.040
<v Speaker 2>of suggests This leaves a pretty profound impact on young Andrew,

1:23:53.520 --> 1:23:57.719
<v Speaker 2>so by age eleven, he was, in his words, man

1:23:57.760 --> 1:24:00.799
<v Speaker 2>of the house, looking after his younger brother and now sister.

1:24:01.320 --> 1:24:03.719
<v Speaker 2>The town in England they live in was called Luton

1:24:03.880 --> 1:24:05.840
<v Speaker 2>and it is still. I think it's usually pronounced by

1:24:05.880 --> 1:24:09.280
<v Speaker 2>English people Luton. But you know, you know how they are.

1:24:09.600 --> 1:24:11.799
<v Speaker 3>I didn't think we would get an accent this episode,

1:24:11.920 --> 1:24:13.639
<v Speaker 3>but I'm glad we did.

1:24:14.160 --> 1:24:16.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm from Luton. That's how they sound.

1:24:17.840 --> 1:24:20.599
<v Speaker 1>Robert, you know how much that upsets.

1:24:20.680 --> 1:24:23.080
<v Speaker 2>When I do my When I do my accent, should

1:24:23.080 --> 1:24:25.280
<v Speaker 2>I do my Boston accent to get him back on board?

1:24:25.400 --> 1:24:27.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Your Boston accents really joy.

1:24:27.760 --> 1:24:31.520
<v Speaker 2>Even from Boston and Oi looi caffy and shieldah.

1:24:31.600 --> 1:24:39.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, sounds like Ben Affleck an Australian person underwater being strangled.

1:24:40.640 --> 1:24:43.240
<v Speaker 2>Just Western Australia, Sophie.

1:24:44.880 --> 1:24:47.000
<v Speaker 1>Anyways, Robert, it's time for an ad break.

1:24:47.560 --> 1:24:50.600
<v Speaker 2>It is time for an ad break. So good to

1:24:50.800 --> 1:24:56.719
<v Speaker 2>Denkin Donuts and have you a caffe Boston. It's so bad,

1:24:57.280 --> 1:24:58.880
<v Speaker 2>it's pretty good.

1:24:57.880 --> 1:25:02.680
<v Speaker 3>It's honestly, it's so bad that it's impressive, Like thank you.

1:25:02.720 --> 1:25:04.240
<v Speaker 3>I feel like that takes a lot of skill and

1:25:04.280 --> 1:25:06.000
<v Speaker 3>control to be that bad again.

1:25:06.040 --> 1:25:09.599
<v Speaker 2>I'll take any kind of praise. I don't care bad attention,

1:25:09.720 --> 1:25:12.080
<v Speaker 2>good attention, It's all the same to me. Welcome to

1:25:12.120 --> 1:25:28.240
<v Speaker 2>our podcast about toxic masculinity. H and we're back. Solwton Is.

1:25:28.880 --> 1:25:31.400
<v Speaker 2>It's not an easy place to grow up. It is

1:25:31.439 --> 1:25:34.120
<v Speaker 2>in fact close to, if not the very hardest place

1:25:34.560 --> 1:25:37.280
<v Speaker 2>to grow up in England. It is one of the

1:25:37.280 --> 1:25:40.280
<v Speaker 2>poorest places in the country. It has been repeatedly voted

1:25:40.320 --> 1:25:43.160
<v Speaker 2>the worst place to live in England. I actually found

1:25:43.160 --> 1:25:45.320
<v Speaker 2>a poll from like seven days before I write this

1:25:45.400 --> 1:25:48.880
<v Speaker 2>script from Bedfordshire Live that voted at the worst place

1:25:48.880 --> 1:25:52.719
<v Speaker 2>to live in England. It is a tough town. Andrew

1:25:52.720 --> 1:25:55.680
<v Speaker 2>and his family have basically no money. They live in

1:25:55.720 --> 1:25:59.160
<v Speaker 2>public housing and they are just barely getting by. We

1:25:59.240 --> 1:26:02.080
<v Speaker 2>know this for certain, like this is a confirmed fact

1:26:02.160 --> 1:26:08.320
<v Speaker 2>about his upbringing. Now Andrew again definitely acknowledges that they

1:26:08.320 --> 1:26:10.080
<v Speaker 2>were poor. This is actually an important part of his

1:26:10.120 --> 1:26:13.240
<v Speaker 2>own self mythology. But he also makes some claims that

1:26:13.280 --> 1:26:15.639
<v Speaker 2>we do not know for sure or true. He claims

1:26:15.640 --> 1:26:17.880
<v Speaker 2>he got a job as soon as I was old enough,

1:26:17.920 --> 1:26:21.960
<v Speaker 2>although he does not say when that was quote as

1:26:21.960 --> 1:26:23.599
<v Speaker 2>soon as I was old enough, I got a job

1:26:23.640 --> 1:26:26.280
<v Speaker 2>moving eighty pound boxes of frozen fish into the market

1:26:26.280 --> 1:26:28.960
<v Speaker 2>at five am, and a full day of school weekends

1:26:28.960 --> 1:26:31.040
<v Speaker 2>found me at the market stall, where it perfected my

1:26:31.120 --> 1:26:35.479
<v Speaker 2>knife skills, flawlessly fileting fish at blinding speeds. After some time,

1:26:35.520 --> 1:26:37.599
<v Speaker 2>I never cut my hands at all, not even a nick.

1:26:37.720 --> 1:26:45.920
<v Speaker 2>I learned to play drums. And yeah, that's interesting. I'm

1:26:45.960 --> 1:26:48.040
<v Speaker 2>sure some Again, I'm sure pieces of all of this

1:26:48.080 --> 1:26:51.680
<v Speaker 2>are true. I don't know about his knife skills or

1:26:51.680 --> 1:26:54.960
<v Speaker 2>the blinding speed, but I'm sure pieces of this are true. Now,

1:26:55.160 --> 1:26:58.120
<v Speaker 2>trist Or Andrew interestingly says that the only one of

1:26:58.120 --> 1:26:59.840
<v Speaker 2>them who got into a real world fight when they

1:26:59.840 --> 1:27:02.839
<v Speaker 2>were kids was his brother Tristan. Some kid was bullying

1:27:02.880 --> 1:27:05.240
<v Speaker 2>him and he beat him up. I don't know if

1:27:05.280 --> 1:27:07.160
<v Speaker 2>that story is true or not, but it is worth

1:27:07.200 --> 1:27:09.840
<v Speaker 2>noting that Andrew claims in this article, I have never

1:27:09.920 --> 1:27:12.920
<v Speaker 2>struck a person in anger. Now we know that's not true,

1:27:13.560 --> 1:27:18.360
<v Speaker 2>because he has beaten at least what like Yeah, we

1:27:18.400 --> 1:27:21.080
<v Speaker 2>know that's not true. We will talk about that later.

1:27:21.120 --> 1:27:22.920
<v Speaker 2>But this is the claim that he is making in

1:27:22.960 --> 1:27:25.280
<v Speaker 2>this thing that he writes in like twenty twenty two,

1:27:26.880 --> 1:27:28.960
<v Speaker 2>when he was a young adult, he was introduced to

1:27:29.040 --> 1:27:31.840
<v Speaker 2>a kickboxing trainer and he started training, as did his

1:27:31.880 --> 1:27:34.720
<v Speaker 2>brothers soon after. By two thousand and eight, he was

1:27:34.760 --> 1:27:39.280
<v Speaker 2>the seventh highest ranked heavyweight kickboxer in Britain. A year later,

1:27:39.320 --> 1:27:42.240
<v Speaker 2>he won his first championship and became the number one

1:27:42.320 --> 1:27:46.320
<v Speaker 2>ranked kickboxer in Europe for his division. Two years later,

1:27:46.360 --> 1:27:49.560
<v Speaker 2>in twenty twelve, he was the second best heavyweight kickboxer

1:27:49.600 --> 1:27:54.360
<v Speaker 2>on the planet. That sounds very impressive, right, Yeah, yeah,

1:27:54.400 --> 1:27:56.479
<v Speaker 2>I mean second best kickboxer on the planet. That means

1:27:56.520 --> 1:28:01.200
<v Speaker 2>you can kick to death anybody but one guy. Yeah,

1:28:01.280 --> 1:28:04.559
<v Speaker 2>that is not what that actually means. So I'm gonna

1:28:04.560 --> 1:28:06.360
<v Speaker 2>be honest. All of the articles about him will just

1:28:06.360 --> 1:28:09.120
<v Speaker 2>say he was the second best light heavyweight. Sometimes they'll

1:28:09.120 --> 1:28:12.120
<v Speaker 2>just say the second x kickboxer on the planet. They'll

1:28:12.120 --> 1:28:15.000
<v Speaker 2>talk about his championships and like lists the numbers. I

1:28:15.200 --> 1:28:17.559
<v Speaker 2>was the first draft of this, actually, I just wrote

1:28:17.600 --> 1:28:18.960
<v Speaker 2>that and then moved on and was like, hey, he's

1:28:18.960 --> 1:28:21.920
<v Speaker 2>really good at kickboxing. Lots of bad people are really

1:28:21.920 --> 1:28:24.800
<v Speaker 2>good at something. I assumed he was, as like, I

1:28:24.840 --> 1:28:27.840
<v Speaker 2>figured that that was true. I looked at his Wikipedia page,

1:28:27.880 --> 1:28:30.200
<v Speaker 2>which says he has like seventy nine wins and nine

1:28:30.320 --> 1:28:33.160
<v Speaker 2>losses and lists his championships, and he did win a

1:28:33.160 --> 1:28:37.120
<v Speaker 2>bunch of what are called world championships. However, that's not

1:28:37.200 --> 1:28:39.880
<v Speaker 2>how boxing works, because I also looked up a bunch

1:28:39.880 --> 1:28:43.160
<v Speaker 2>of discussions of boxing fans analyzing his actual performance, and

1:28:43.160 --> 1:28:45.280
<v Speaker 2>one thing they'll point up is that, well, there's not

1:28:45.360 --> 1:28:49.040
<v Speaker 2>just one guy who's the best at kickboxing. Kickboxing is

1:28:49.080 --> 1:28:51.679
<v Speaker 2>actually an incredibly fragmented sport, and there are a bunch

1:28:51.720 --> 1:28:53.120
<v Speaker 2>of different I think, I don't know if they call

1:28:53.200 --> 1:28:56.280
<v Speaker 2>him leagues or whatever. There's a bunch of different types

1:28:56.320 --> 1:29:00.840
<v Speaker 2>of kickboxing championships, and some are more impressive than others. Right,

1:29:00.920 --> 1:29:03.640
<v Speaker 2>Some are people who are really good at kickboxing, some

1:29:03.720 --> 1:29:06.800
<v Speaker 2>are people who are more amateur, and Andrew kind of

1:29:06.840 --> 1:29:09.639
<v Speaker 2>stayed doing the more amateur stuff, and he was really

1:29:09.680 --> 1:29:14.040
<v Speaker 2>good at beating amateur kickboxers. One of the critiques people

1:29:14.080 --> 1:29:17.719
<v Speaker 2>will note who are into kickboxing is that the league

1:29:17.760 --> 1:29:21.759
<v Speaker 2>that he became world or light heavyweight champion in only

1:29:21.800 --> 1:29:22.559
<v Speaker 2>covers Europe.

1:29:23.160 --> 1:29:24.960
<v Speaker 5>So, okay, you.

1:29:24.920 --> 1:29:27.639
<v Speaker 2>Guys might notice there's a couple of places that are

1:29:27.680 --> 1:29:30.800
<v Speaker 2>the world that aren't Europe. That iume. I assume there's

1:29:30.840 --> 1:29:34.479
<v Speaker 2>some kickboxers in those places, at least one or yeah,

1:29:34.479 --> 1:29:38.400
<v Speaker 2>at least a couple. The other thing they'll point out

1:29:38.439 --> 1:29:40.599
<v Speaker 2>is that of all of these fights that he had

1:29:40.640 --> 1:29:43.599
<v Speaker 2>and he claims like seventy nine wins, they can only

1:29:43.720 --> 1:29:47.519
<v Speaker 2>verify like forty something fights because and this is that

1:29:47.560 --> 1:29:50.080
<v Speaker 2>may not mean that he's lying it. It's all of

1:29:50.120 --> 1:29:52.479
<v Speaker 2>the ways that the shit gets reported are weird, right,

1:29:52.760 --> 1:29:55.519
<v Speaker 2>and there's so many different weird leagues and shit. He

1:29:55.680 --> 1:29:57.800
<v Speaker 2>might be lying about the total number of wins and

1:29:57.840 --> 1:29:59.640
<v Speaker 2>games he was in, but of the things that we

1:29:59.640 --> 1:30:03.439
<v Speaker 2>can terrify only this is something kickboxing fans will point out.

1:30:03.600 --> 1:30:06.719
<v Speaker 2>Only five of his fights are against guys with Wikipedia pages,

1:30:07.200 --> 1:30:09.960
<v Speaker 2>And that sounds, but it means like guys who are

1:30:10.000 --> 1:30:12.519
<v Speaker 2>notable enough that they they have caught like are good

1:30:12.600 --> 1:30:13.440
<v Speaker 2>enough at kickboxing.

1:30:13.520 --> 1:30:16.479
<v Speaker 3>So he lost fights were against like nobodies or nobody

1:30:16.560 --> 1:30:19.439
<v Speaker 3>for guys who just you know, on the weekends or something.

1:30:19.800 --> 1:30:22.160
<v Speaker 2>Of the notable five fights he was in, he lost

1:30:22.200 --> 1:30:26.680
<v Speaker 2>three of them. The allegation kickboxing fans will make is

1:30:26.680 --> 1:30:29.639
<v Speaker 2>that he mostly fought amateurs to pad his record. Now,

1:30:29.840 --> 1:30:33.120
<v Speaker 2>everyone agrees he's still that's still pretty good at kickboxing,

1:30:33.400 --> 1:30:35.519
<v Speaker 2>but he is not the second He was never the

1:30:35.560 --> 1:30:39.080
<v Speaker 2>second best on the Planet Earth at kickboxing. That's just

1:30:39.120 --> 1:30:43.559
<v Speaker 2>simply not the case. And I think it's it's fair

1:30:43.600 --> 1:30:45.880
<v Speaker 2>to say, yeah, he's pretty good at kickboxing, he was

1:30:45.920 --> 1:30:47.720
<v Speaker 2>never as good as he claimed, and this is a

1:30:47.760 --> 1:30:50.639
<v Speaker 2>part of the self mythologizing that he engages in kind

1:30:50.640 --> 1:30:55.160
<v Speaker 2>of vastly exaggerating his competency at kicking people a bunch

1:30:55.200 --> 1:31:00.760
<v Speaker 2>with his feet. So yeah, it's all It's worth noting that,

1:31:00.880 --> 1:31:04.479
<v Speaker 2>like the level Tait actually was at did not pay

1:31:04.560 --> 1:31:07.720
<v Speaker 2>terribly well. The per fight amount is impressive. He can

1:31:07.800 --> 1:31:10.360
<v Speaker 2>make between fifty and one hundred thousand dollars per fight

1:31:10.560 --> 1:31:13.360
<v Speaker 2>that he was in, but he was having like one

1:31:13.479 --> 1:31:17.559
<v Speaker 2>or two fights per year, which is not terrible income.

1:31:17.600 --> 1:31:20.479
<v Speaker 2>But you're paying for a coach, you're paying for Jim access,

1:31:20.520 --> 1:31:23.240
<v Speaker 2>you're paying for the medical care that comes from this,

1:31:23.280 --> 1:31:26.360
<v Speaker 2>and he's going to have several serious injuries. So he's

1:31:26.400 --> 1:31:29.400
<v Speaker 2>not living well off of this salary. And in fact,

1:31:29.479 --> 1:31:31.879
<v Speaker 2>he and his brother are living in a cheap apartment

1:31:32.840 --> 1:31:35.640
<v Speaker 2>I think in Bedfordshire and eating as cheaply as they

1:31:35.720 --> 1:31:39.240
<v Speaker 2>possibly can in order to afford to keep being in kickboxing.

1:31:39.520 --> 1:31:41.400
<v Speaker 2>Because it's like that's kind of what it is when

1:31:41.439 --> 1:31:44.320
<v Speaker 2>you're competing at this kind of awkward level that he's at,

1:31:45.040 --> 1:31:47.840
<v Speaker 2>and Tate relates aspects of this himself in a video

1:31:47.880 --> 1:31:50.000
<v Speaker 2>from twenty twenty two. And I'm going to play this

1:31:50.080 --> 1:31:51.880
<v Speaker 2>so everyone can get a look and listen to the

1:31:51.920 --> 1:31:54.760
<v Speaker 2>guy before we can go any further. This is from

1:31:54.840 --> 1:31:58.760
<v Speaker 2>his video on Rumble. This is his like you Like

1:31:58.880 --> 1:32:02.360
<v Speaker 2>Rumble is right wing you tube and his channel is

1:32:02.400 --> 1:32:07.599
<v Speaker 2>called Tate Speech as in hate speech. But you guys

1:32:07.600 --> 1:32:10.000
<v Speaker 2>get it right, I don't need here.

1:32:10.040 --> 1:32:13.639
<v Speaker 1>It is the first first clip world.

1:32:13.520 --> 1:32:17.880
<v Speaker 6>Level athletes with no money. We invented a dish that

1:32:18.040 --> 1:32:21.600
<v Speaker 6>was so bland. We called it Flavor because it was

1:32:21.600 --> 1:32:23.760
<v Speaker 6>the only way you could add flavor to the dish,

1:32:24.200 --> 1:32:27.400
<v Speaker 6>So it had the name Flavor, but it was extremely bland,

1:32:28.240 --> 1:32:32.439
<v Speaker 6>and it was white rice frozen peas because they're cheap.

1:32:33.000 --> 1:32:33.759
<v Speaker 1>Kidney beans.

1:32:34.320 --> 1:32:37.880
<v Speaker 6>Kidney beans have more protein per one hundred grams than

1:32:37.960 --> 1:32:38.719
<v Speaker 6>minced beef.

1:32:38.800 --> 1:32:39.400
<v Speaker 2>Did you know that?

1:32:39.680 --> 1:32:41.600
<v Speaker 6>I found out when I was broke, walk in the

1:32:41.600 --> 1:32:43.799
<v Speaker 6>aisles at a grocery store trying to find the cheapest

1:32:44.040 --> 1:32:46.720
<v Speaker 6>protein money can buy. Could it have bring myself to

1:32:46.760 --> 1:32:47.360
<v Speaker 6>be a vegetarian?

1:32:47.400 --> 1:32:47.920
<v Speaker 1>So I'd add a.

1:32:47.880 --> 1:32:50.800
<v Speaker 6>Little bit of mate minced beef and if I was

1:32:50.920 --> 1:32:53.479
<v Speaker 6>really rich, i'd have hot sauce.

1:32:54.240 --> 1:32:58.200
<v Speaker 2>And I actually suspect he's probably not lying too much there.

1:32:58.360 --> 1:33:02.439
<v Speaker 2>That seems like a a reasonable story. And I know

1:33:02.520 --> 1:33:05.439
<v Speaker 2>some people who are professional athletes at that similar awkward

1:33:05.520 --> 1:33:08.280
<v Speaker 2>level where you're like a pro but you're not rich,

1:33:08.439 --> 1:33:10.840
<v Speaker 2>who are like, yeah, you do whatever it takes to

1:33:10.920 --> 1:33:14.160
<v Speaker 2>like stay fueled, or that means cooking giant pots of

1:33:14.240 --> 1:33:19.080
<v Speaker 2>like not delicious things just to stay Anyway, that seems

1:33:19.280 --> 1:33:22.639
<v Speaker 2>broadly speaking, like he's probably not lying entirely about that.

1:33:22.920 --> 1:33:24.960
<v Speaker 2>Now he is lying about he and his brother being

1:33:25.000 --> 1:33:28.000
<v Speaker 2>world class athletes. You might say he was. That's going

1:33:28.040 --> 1:33:29.479
<v Speaker 2>to be up to what you define that as. But

1:33:29.560 --> 1:33:32.840
<v Speaker 2>Tristan is not competing in kickboxing. He is working as

1:33:32.920 --> 1:33:37.720
<v Speaker 2>like a coach kind of, although people will criticize that

1:33:37.760 --> 1:33:40.599
<v Speaker 2>in ways that are too weirdly nuanced and involve knowledge

1:33:40.600 --> 1:33:43.160
<v Speaker 2>of kickboxing. So we're just going to move on now.

1:33:43.320 --> 1:33:46.040
<v Speaker 2>The height of his career as a guy who kicks

1:33:46.040 --> 1:33:49.639
<v Speaker 2>people for money comes in like twenty twelve, twenty thirteen,

1:33:51.000 --> 1:33:53.559
<v Speaker 2>twenty thirteen, I think is his last big championship, and

1:33:53.600 --> 1:33:56.479
<v Speaker 2>not long after that he decides to leave professional sports

1:33:56.520 --> 1:34:00.160
<v Speaker 2>as a full time thing. Injuries play a major role

1:34:00.240 --> 1:34:04.280
<v Speaker 2>in this. Tate does not like talking about vulnerability, but

1:34:04.640 --> 1:34:08.080
<v Speaker 2>he was worse at taking hits than he likes to pretend.

1:34:08.760 --> 1:34:12.320
<v Speaker 2>He suffered detached retinas in several fights and had to

1:34:12.360 --> 1:34:15.679
<v Speaker 2>have surgery for his eyes. So he was like, he's

1:34:15.760 --> 1:34:18.519
<v Speaker 2>I mean again and again. That's the I'm pointing this

1:34:18.560 --> 1:34:21.160
<v Speaker 2>out because he will never admit it. Like, if you're

1:34:21.240 --> 1:34:23.840
<v Speaker 2>a professional kickboxer, at some point, you're going to get

1:34:23.880 --> 1:34:26.920
<v Speaker 2>hurt enough that you can't keep doing kickboxing, like we

1:34:27.000 --> 1:34:30.000
<v Speaker 2>all saw, like Muhammad Ali go from you know Muhammad

1:34:30.000 --> 1:34:34.200
<v Speaker 2>Ali to you know, a guy who has severe injuries

1:34:34.200 --> 1:34:36.080
<v Speaker 2>as a result of being a boxer. All this stuff's

1:34:36.080 --> 1:34:38.240
<v Speaker 2>bad for you, like you either quit it a certain

1:34:38.280 --> 1:34:40.639
<v Speaker 2>point or it destroys your body and mind the same

1:34:40.640 --> 1:34:42.559
<v Speaker 2>way that like football or whatever it does. I mean,

1:34:42.600 --> 1:34:45.120
<v Speaker 2>we all just got a reminder of that a couple

1:34:45.200 --> 1:34:48.160
<v Speaker 2>of weeks ago with oh, the guy who had a

1:34:48.160 --> 1:34:51.519
<v Speaker 2>heart attack on the Yeah, this is all pretty like

1:34:51.640 --> 1:34:54.200
<v Speaker 2>normal sports stuff, right like it you are when you're

1:34:54.240 --> 1:34:56.599
<v Speaker 2>watching guys do these kind of combat sports. You are

1:34:56.640 --> 1:35:00.360
<v Speaker 2>watching people like mortgage their bodies in the hope of

1:35:00.400 --> 1:35:03.720
<v Speaker 2>getting rich, and Tate kind of had to accept at

1:35:03.720 --> 1:35:06.160
<v Speaker 2>a certain point, my body is going to give out

1:35:06.200 --> 1:35:10.320
<v Speaker 2>before I get rich doing this. So you know, that's

1:35:10.360 --> 1:35:13.360
<v Speaker 2>the thing that he recognizes, and he decides I need

1:35:13.400 --> 1:35:16.080
<v Speaker 2>to let my most professional athletes do. I need to

1:35:16.320 --> 1:35:18.519
<v Speaker 2>find something else I can do that's easier on my

1:35:18.600 --> 1:35:21.280
<v Speaker 2>body that I can support myself with. You know, some

1:35:21.320 --> 1:35:24.800
<v Speaker 2>people open car dealerships. Some people decide to you know,

1:35:24.880 --> 1:35:29.280
<v Speaker 2>sell ads for different things and be pitchman. Some people

1:35:29.320 --> 1:35:34.520
<v Speaker 2>go into professional baseball. Tristan decided to become a webcam

1:35:34.560 --> 1:35:39.920
<v Speaker 2>sex pimp. So that's that's an interesting call. I do

1:35:39.960 --> 1:35:42.519
<v Speaker 2>think history would have been different in fascinating ways that

1:35:42.520 --> 1:35:48.840
<v Speaker 2>that's the choice Michael Jordan had made. Sophie, don't give

1:35:48.840 --> 1:35:53.599
<v Speaker 2>you that look anyway.

1:35:54.280 --> 1:35:58.360
<v Speaker 1>What I'm just saying that look, you deserved it.

1:35:58.960 --> 1:36:02.320
<v Speaker 2>I usually do so for three years, they run a

1:36:02.439 --> 1:36:06.920
<v Speaker 2>rapidly expanding business finding women to act as cam operators. Now,

1:36:07.240 --> 1:36:10.880
<v Speaker 2>this is not an inherently dishonest business. I guess if

1:36:10.880 --> 1:36:14.800
<v Speaker 2>you are, you know, building a studio and building like

1:36:14.880 --> 1:36:17.960
<v Speaker 2>a platform by which you can you know, bring these

1:36:18.240 --> 1:36:22.479
<v Speaker 2>these cam workers attention, and they understand their contracts and

1:36:22.560 --> 1:36:26.160
<v Speaker 2>like it's a reasonably fair split. I don't have an

1:36:26.200 --> 1:36:30.719
<v Speaker 2>ethical issue with building a company that allows sex workers

1:36:30.760 --> 1:36:34.640
<v Speaker 2>to do cam work, right, that's that's fine. But the

1:36:34.640 --> 1:36:37.640
<v Speaker 2>business that Tait interest and operated was not fine. It

1:36:37.720 --> 1:36:39.160
<v Speaker 2>was fundamentally pretty toxic.

1:36:39.360 --> 1:36:45.080
<v Speaker 1>No shit, the brothers didn't have a environment, all right, cool.

1:36:45.800 --> 1:36:48.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm going to quote now from an article in

1:36:48.760 --> 1:36:51.599
<v Speaker 2>The Mirror, which is not an ideal source, but it's

1:36:51.600 --> 1:36:53.599
<v Speaker 2>who entered them about this. And I don't know why

1:36:53.600 --> 1:36:56.240
<v Speaker 2>they would lie about something this shady and gross, because

1:36:56.280 --> 1:36:58.080
<v Speaker 2>it makes them seem like sex criminals.

1:36:58.479 --> 1:36:58.879
<v Speaker 5>Quote.

1:36:59.720 --> 1:37:01.840
<v Speaker 2>Some of their customers fall for the belief that they

1:37:01.840 --> 1:37:04.000
<v Speaker 2>can have a real relationship with the women they see

1:37:04.040 --> 1:37:07.519
<v Speaker 2>on screen, but Tristan brazenly told The Sunday Mirror it's

1:37:07.560 --> 1:37:09.960
<v Speaker 2>all a big scam and bragged that he doesn't feel

1:37:10.000 --> 1:37:13.599
<v Speaker 2>any guilt because no one cares and it's their problem,

1:37:13.680 --> 1:37:18.240
<v Speaker 2>not mine. The more punter's handover, the more models earn.

1:37:18.479 --> 1:37:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Some women will claim to have crippling university debt, a

1:37:21.000 --> 1:37:23.320
<v Speaker 2>family member in need of private healthcare, or a dream

1:37:23.360 --> 1:37:25.720
<v Speaker 2>of moving to the UK, sometimes even telling men they

1:37:25.760 --> 1:37:28.360
<v Speaker 2>want to meet them. Whatever the excuse is, it is

1:37:28.400 --> 1:37:33.840
<v Speaker 2>a lie, Tristan said. So he tells a story in

1:37:33.880 --> 1:37:36.360
<v Speaker 2>this article about this guy who wanted to give a

1:37:36.439 --> 1:37:40.560
<v Speaker 2>cam operator twenty thousand dollars his life savings, and Tristan's like,

1:37:40.600 --> 1:37:42.120
<v Speaker 2>and I try. I talked him out of it. I

1:37:42.120 --> 1:37:43.920
<v Speaker 2>told him, you know, he shouldn't do that. She was

1:37:43.960 --> 1:37:46.240
<v Speaker 2>actually making good money. And then he came back a

1:37:46.240 --> 1:37:48.599
<v Speaker 2>couple of months later and fell in love with another

1:37:48.640 --> 1:37:50.320
<v Speaker 2>and this time I was like, yeah, man, we'll take

1:37:50.360 --> 1:37:54.920
<v Speaker 2>your money, which definitely a lie. Tristan and Andrew Tate

1:37:55.000 --> 1:37:57.880
<v Speaker 2>have never turned down twenty grand that a desperate man

1:37:57.960 --> 1:38:01.040
<v Speaker 2>offered them for lies, trying to.

1:38:03.760 --> 1:38:05.679
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely bread and butter.

1:38:06.840 --> 1:38:10.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I am going to continue that quote from the Mirror,

1:38:10.680 --> 1:38:13.280
<v Speaker 2>but first, you know what I am going to continue

1:38:13.600 --> 1:38:19.200
<v Speaker 2>first is capitalism. I am. I am keeping this nightmare

1:38:19.200 --> 1:38:23.439
<v Speaker 2>engine alive on my own by advertising for products on

1:38:23.479 --> 1:38:27.679
<v Speaker 2>this podcast. So on your own, that's it. That's I am.

1:38:27.720 --> 1:38:30.800
<v Speaker 2>I am the lynch pin holding the global economy.

1:38:30.360 --> 1:38:31.639
<v Speaker 1>Together on your own.

1:38:32.120 --> 1:38:35.840
<v Speaker 2>Look after Facebook fell apart, it's just me, baby, Oh

1:38:35.920 --> 1:38:43.360
<v Speaker 2>my god, name another company, Sophie, It's just this podcast.

1:38:42.520 --> 1:38:47.759
<v Speaker 1>Just run, just run the ads. He's out of control.

1:38:54.040 --> 1:39:03.720
<v Speaker 2>Uh, we are back. So I'm going to continue that

1:39:03.800 --> 1:39:08.160
<v Speaker 2>quote from the Sunday Mirror of Tristan Tate being interviewed.

1:39:08.400 --> 1:39:10.960
<v Speaker 2>He believes he is beyond the reach of the authorities

1:39:11.200 --> 1:39:14.120
<v Speaker 2>because of two lines in the terms and conditions. He said,

1:39:14.479 --> 1:39:18.200
<v Speaker 2>One is broadcasting is for entertainment purposes only. That means

1:39:18.200 --> 1:39:20.080
<v Speaker 2>if a model says she has a sick dog or

1:39:20.080 --> 1:39:23.080
<v Speaker 2>a sick grandma, it doesn't have to be true. The

1:39:23.120 --> 1:39:25.160
<v Speaker 2>next is that all cash given to models is a

1:39:25.200 --> 1:39:30.679
<v Speaker 2>voluntary sign of gratitude for their time broadcasting. Now, I'm

1:39:30.720 --> 1:39:31.320
<v Speaker 2>not a lawyer.

1:39:32.320 --> 1:39:34.760
<v Speaker 1>That kind of sounds like the taking their money.

1:39:34.800 --> 1:39:36.760
<v Speaker 2>It does sound like you're taking their money. That said,

1:39:36.840 --> 1:39:39.160
<v Speaker 2>he may be in the right there. The mirror did

1:39:39.160 --> 1:39:41.559
<v Speaker 2>a journalistic thing and they reached out to a lawyer

1:39:41.680 --> 1:39:46.120
<v Speaker 2>to be like, is this true, And the lawyer said maybe.

1:39:46.160 --> 1:39:50.040
<v Speaker 2>But also generally UK laws say that you can't defraud

1:39:50.080 --> 1:39:53.639
<v Speaker 2>people and take their money on fraudulent terms. But also

1:39:53.880 --> 1:39:57.240
<v Speaker 2>the laws haven't kept pace with technology. There's a good

1:39:57.360 --> 1:39:59.439
<v Speaker 2>chance he was in a legal gray area. They did

1:39:59.479 --> 1:40:04.120
<v Speaker 2>not get charged, so probably is fair to say they

1:40:04.120 --> 1:40:05.840
<v Speaker 2>were in enough of a legal gray area that they

1:40:05.840 --> 1:40:09.280
<v Speaker 2>were reasonably safe. And to be like, perfectly honest, I

1:40:09.320 --> 1:40:12.920
<v Speaker 2>suspect they could have done this indefinitely. If Andrew Tate

1:40:13.000 --> 1:40:16.240
<v Speaker 2>hadn't been a sex criminal, which is what we're getting

1:40:16.240 --> 1:40:20.400
<v Speaker 2>to here. So Andrew Tate later wrote this on his

1:40:20.520 --> 1:40:23.599
<v Speaker 2>personal website, slash Shady Business, teaching men to run there

1:40:23.640 --> 1:40:27.080
<v Speaker 2>on webcam porn studios. This is a thing he does later,

1:40:27.760 --> 1:40:30.240
<v Speaker 2>but this is how he talks about his webcam business

1:40:30.280 --> 1:40:33.000
<v Speaker 2>and how he makes it work. God, how did I

1:40:33.040 --> 1:40:36.479
<v Speaker 2>become rich webcam? I've been running a webcam studio for

1:40:36.520 --> 1:40:39.559
<v Speaker 2>nearly a decade. I've had over seventy five girls work

1:40:39.640 --> 1:40:41.719
<v Speaker 2>for me, and my business model is different than ninety

1:40:41.800 --> 1:40:45.280
<v Speaker 2>nine percent of webcam studio owners. Over fifty percent of

1:40:45.360 --> 1:40:47.960
<v Speaker 2>my employees were actually my girlfriend at the time, and

1:40:48.040 --> 1:40:50.960
<v Speaker 2>if all my girlfriends, none were in the adult industry

1:40:51.080 --> 1:40:54.200
<v Speaker 2>entertainment industry before they met me. My job was getting

1:40:54.240 --> 1:40:56.640
<v Speaker 2>women to fall in love with me. Literally, that was

1:40:56.720 --> 1:40:58.760
<v Speaker 2>my job. My job was to meet a girl, go

1:40:58.800 --> 1:41:01.360
<v Speaker 2>on a few dates, sleep her, test if she's quality,

1:41:01.560 --> 1:41:03.080
<v Speaker 2>get her to fall in love with me to where

1:41:03.080 --> 1:41:05.200
<v Speaker 2>she do anything I'd say, and then get her on

1:41:05.280 --> 1:41:07.840
<v Speaker 2>webcams so we could become rich together. Whether you agree

1:41:07.960 --> 1:41:10.280
<v Speaker 2>or disagree with what I did with their loyalties, submission

1:41:10.280 --> 1:41:13.080
<v Speaker 2>and love for me doesn't matter. You cannot reject the results.

1:41:13.080 --> 1:41:15.639
<v Speaker 2>And the results are simple. My girlfriends would do more

1:41:15.680 --> 1:41:17.800
<v Speaker 2>for me than ninety nine point nine percent of men's

1:41:17.800 --> 1:41:20.000
<v Speaker 2>wives would do for them.

1:41:20.320 --> 1:41:24.160
<v Speaker 5>So what does that make That's one of the grossest things.

1:41:25.200 --> 1:41:28.559
<v Speaker 2>Is really gross's and.

1:41:28.560 --> 1:41:33.439
<v Speaker 1>Like voluntarily listed on his own site in it it's

1:41:33.520 --> 1:41:34.720
<v Speaker 1>just fucking.

1:41:34.439 --> 1:41:39.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he bragged about this. Now, this is potentially him

1:41:39.160 --> 1:41:41.120
<v Speaker 2>describing sex trafficking.

1:41:40.800 --> 1:41:43.759
<v Speaker 1>Right, Especially, that's what it sounds like if.

1:41:43.600 --> 1:41:46.000
<v Speaker 2>You're if the women are not getting Now again, there's

1:41:46.000 --> 1:41:48.559
<v Speaker 2>not like a law that says you can't have someone

1:41:48.600 --> 1:41:51.400
<v Speaker 2>fall in love with you and then contract with them

1:41:51.439 --> 1:41:55.240
<v Speaker 2>to do sex work, right, that's not a thing that

1:41:55.280 --> 1:41:58.880
<v Speaker 2>there's a law against. However, if they are not getting

1:41:58.920 --> 1:42:01.919
<v Speaker 2>paid for it, and if they are not being allowed

1:42:01.960 --> 1:42:04.960
<v Speaker 2>freedom of movement, well then what happens is that you

1:42:05.000 --> 1:42:08.120
<v Speaker 2>have like entrapped them and you are sex trafficking them. Right.

1:42:08.200 --> 1:42:10.479
<v Speaker 2>This is what's called law enforcement calls this the lover

1:42:10.600 --> 1:42:12.800
<v Speaker 2>boy method, right, where you get someone to fall in

1:42:12.840 --> 1:42:14.600
<v Speaker 2>love with you. And also this is this goes on.

1:42:14.720 --> 1:42:18.640
<v Speaker 2>This is a very old tactic in like shall we

1:42:18.680 --> 1:42:23.120
<v Speaker 2>say pimping, where like, yeah, you make a woman feel

1:42:23.160 --> 1:42:26.120
<v Speaker 2>like or a person be in love and dependent on you,

1:42:26.520 --> 1:42:30.280
<v Speaker 2>and then you kind of emotionally abuse them into doing

1:42:30.360 --> 1:42:32.840
<v Speaker 2>sex work. This is a thing that happens that is

1:42:32.880 --> 1:42:38.440
<v Speaker 2>like a recognized part of a criminal enterprise. Now, obviously

1:42:38.640 --> 1:42:41.439
<v Speaker 2>getting charges based on those words on his website is

1:42:41.479 --> 1:42:44.200
<v Speaker 2>going to be hard to do, but just kind of

1:42:44.200 --> 1:42:46.280
<v Speaker 2>the stuff that he had published for a while was

1:42:46.439 --> 1:42:48.280
<v Speaker 2>enough that people at the time should have known that

1:42:48.320 --> 1:42:52.439
<v Speaker 2>he was up to a what was a likely illegal business. Now,

1:42:52.720 --> 1:42:55.200
<v Speaker 2>if you came across articles about Tate in twenty twenty

1:42:55.280 --> 1:42:56.960
<v Speaker 2>one under twenty twenty two and they went to any

1:42:57.040 --> 1:42:59.720
<v Speaker 2>detail about his webcam career, the most you were likely

1:42:59.720 --> 1:43:02.200
<v Speaker 2>to learn and was what the Mirror wrote here. After

1:43:02.240 --> 1:43:04.880
<v Speaker 2>three years they moved to Romania, saying the UK had

1:43:04.920 --> 1:43:07.960
<v Speaker 2>gone downhill. They have women on a number of CD sites.

1:43:08.040 --> 1:43:10.479
<v Speaker 2>Operators take a forty percent cut and the rest goes

1:43:10.520 --> 1:43:15.479
<v Speaker 2>to the studio. So that's that's what they claimed for

1:43:15.760 --> 1:43:17.680
<v Speaker 2>years had happened, like, you know, we did it in

1:43:17.720 --> 1:43:19.640
<v Speaker 2>the UK and then the UK got woke and so

1:43:19.720 --> 1:43:24.200
<v Speaker 2>we switched to Romania. That is not what actually happened.

1:43:24.360 --> 1:43:27.880
<v Speaker 2>So they started running this can business in twenty twelve.

1:43:28.400 --> 1:43:30.839
<v Speaker 2>Three years after twenty twelve, and they moved to Romania.

1:43:30.880 --> 1:43:34.679
<v Speaker 2>It's twenty fifteen now, just a few days ago after

1:43:34.720 --> 1:43:37.439
<v Speaker 2>his arrest, a story drop that made it clear why

1:43:37.479 --> 1:43:39.840
<v Speaker 2>they actually left the UK, and it had nothing to

1:43:39.880 --> 1:43:43.200
<v Speaker 2>do with wokeness or the country going downhill. Andrew Tate

1:43:43.280 --> 1:43:46.320
<v Speaker 2>was arrested on suspicion of sexual assault and physical abuse

1:43:46.400 --> 1:43:50.880
<v Speaker 2>in twenty and fifteen. Weiss broke the story quote. Two

1:43:50.880 --> 1:43:54.120
<v Speaker 2>women told Vice World News they were violently abused, one raped,

1:43:54.160 --> 1:43:57.120
<v Speaker 2>the other repeatedly strangled by Andrew Tate, and that UK

1:43:57.240 --> 1:44:00.559
<v Speaker 2>police and the Crown Prosecution Service mishandled their case, leaving

1:44:00.600 --> 1:44:02.519
<v Speaker 2>him free to rise to global fame on the back

1:44:02.560 --> 1:44:05.519
<v Speaker 2>of his unchecked misogyny. Police took four years to pass

1:44:05.560 --> 1:44:08.679
<v Speaker 2>their investigation to the Crown Prosecution Service, whose job involves

1:44:08.680 --> 1:44:11.880
<v Speaker 2>assessing whether there is a realistic prospect of conviction, at

1:44:11.880 --> 1:44:17.360
<v Speaker 2>which point the CPS declined to prosecute. So that's the

1:44:17.400 --> 1:44:20.639
<v Speaker 2>reality of why they had to leave the UK.

1:44:21.840 --> 1:44:24.120
<v Speaker 1>Fucking vile, disgusting human beings.

1:44:24.160 --> 1:44:27.439
<v Speaker 2>And it makes the timeline makes a lot more sense

1:44:27.479 --> 1:44:30.040
<v Speaker 2>when you know that, when he's like, yeah, oh, we

1:44:30.080 --> 1:44:31.960
<v Speaker 2>had to bounce because you know, things just got to

1:44:32.080 --> 1:44:35.320
<v Speaker 2>woke for us in Romania. And he would also. He

1:44:35.439 --> 1:44:37.840
<v Speaker 2>later made the claim that, like, I had to leave

1:44:37.920 --> 1:44:40.920
<v Speaker 2>Romania because in the UK a man can get accused

1:44:40.960 --> 1:44:45.320
<v Speaker 2>of rape for anything, right, and you know, Romania, it's

1:44:45.400 --> 1:44:47.640
<v Speaker 2>much harder to get accused of rape. And so I

1:44:47.680 --> 1:44:50.080
<v Speaker 2>moved to Romania, not because I'm a rapist, but because

1:44:50.120 --> 1:44:53.719
<v Speaker 2>I like freedom. No, man, you were accused of rape

1:44:53.800 --> 1:44:58.640
<v Speaker 2>by multiple women and then investigated, and you decided to

1:44:58.720 --> 1:45:01.400
<v Speaker 2>leave because you didn't know if the UK was going

1:45:01.439 --> 1:45:04.840
<v Speaker 2>to come for your ass at some point. And the

1:45:04.880 --> 1:45:06.680
<v Speaker 2>story is actually a bit more fucked up than that,

1:45:06.760 --> 1:45:09.839
<v Speaker 2>because back in twenty fourteen, a woman who Vice refers

1:45:09.880 --> 1:45:13.320
<v Speaker 2>to as Amelia filed a police report alleging sexual and

1:45:13.360 --> 1:45:16.120
<v Speaker 2>physical abuse by Tate. She claims that she and Tate

1:45:16.160 --> 1:45:18.320
<v Speaker 2>met in two thousand and nine. They were friendly for

1:45:18.479 --> 1:45:22.640
<v Speaker 2>years until twenty thirteen, which is when Tate was transitioning

1:45:22.640 --> 1:45:26.280
<v Speaker 2>away from kickboxing to webcam pimping. The two decided to

1:45:26.320 --> 1:45:28.040
<v Speaker 2>go out on a series of dates at the end

1:45:28.080 --> 1:45:30.120
<v Speaker 2>of that year, and after several weeks, they were in

1:45:30.200 --> 1:45:33.760
<v Speaker 2>her room when Andrew forced himself on her. Now she

1:45:33.920 --> 1:45:37.120
<v Speaker 2>describes him stopping. She tells him to stop when he

1:45:37.160 --> 1:45:40.840
<v Speaker 2>starts like trying to go to have sex, and she

1:45:40.960 --> 1:45:43.120
<v Speaker 2>tells him that she doesn't want to have sex, and

1:45:43.400 --> 1:45:46.559
<v Speaker 2>he tells her she says that he like sits quietly

1:45:46.640 --> 1:45:49.320
<v Speaker 2>for a moment, and then she asks him what's going on,

1:45:49.439 --> 1:45:51.840
<v Speaker 2>and he says, I'm debating whether I should rape you

1:45:51.960 --> 1:45:52.160
<v Speaker 2>or not.

1:45:53.320 --> 1:45:55.280
<v Speaker 5>What what the thought?

1:45:55.479 --> 1:46:00.479
<v Speaker 2>Oh boy, howdy, it's it's bad. Within an end, he

1:46:00.600 --> 1:46:03.080
<v Speaker 2>changed who he was. He wasn't the same Andrew that

1:46:03.120 --> 1:46:05.160
<v Speaker 2>I knew. That was funny, that would make me laugh.

1:46:05.520 --> 1:46:07.519
<v Speaker 2>It was like his eyes went and I didn't have

1:46:07.560 --> 1:46:09.280
<v Speaker 2>a clue who that person was.

1:46:12.479 --> 1:46:19.559
<v Speaker 1>Terrifying, disgusting. Oh that's horrible. I'm so sorry that.

1:46:21.120 --> 1:46:25.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's so. Here's one of the things about

1:46:25.520 --> 1:46:28.800
<v Speaker 2>this is she goes to the cops. He rapes her,

1:46:29.600 --> 1:46:32.720
<v Speaker 2>and it takes they they have. After that point, she

1:46:32.960 --> 1:46:35.400
<v Speaker 2>consents to sec she says a couple of times over

1:46:35.439 --> 1:46:39.640
<v Speaker 2>the next six months, which is not uncommon in situations

1:46:39.680 --> 1:46:43.120
<v Speaker 2>like this. But eventually she goes to the police to

1:46:43.280 --> 1:46:46.680
<v Speaker 2>make a complaint and the police are like, do you

1:46:46.800 --> 1:46:49.559
<v Speaker 2>want to do you want to proceed with charges right,

1:46:49.560 --> 1:46:51.280
<v Speaker 2>because that's an option that you have in this case,

1:46:51.800 --> 1:46:55.639
<v Speaker 2>and she decides, obviously, I don't. I hopefully I don't

1:46:55.640 --> 1:46:58.320
<v Speaker 2>think I have to explain this to this audience, but like,

1:46:58.400 --> 1:47:01.120
<v Speaker 2>there are a lot of horrible persons consequences that can

1:47:01.160 --> 1:47:05.639
<v Speaker 2>come to charging your rapist, right to pursuing with criminal charges,

1:47:06.200 --> 1:47:08.439
<v Speaker 2>she decides, and there is, and this seems like a

1:47:08.439 --> 1:47:10.479
<v Speaker 2>positive things. There's an option in the UK where you

1:47:10.479 --> 1:47:13.240
<v Speaker 2>can just log a complaint and say this guy rape

1:47:13.240 --> 1:47:17.160
<v Speaker 2>me without proceeding with criminal charges, which she decides she

1:47:17.240 --> 1:47:19.519
<v Speaker 2>doesn't want to do at this point, and so that's

1:47:19.560 --> 1:47:23.840
<v Speaker 2>what she does. And then this is again twenty thirteen,

1:47:23.840 --> 1:47:26.360
<v Speaker 2>twenty fifteen, is when those two women who worked in

1:47:26.439 --> 1:47:30.800
<v Speaker 2>his cam studio push press charges against him and the

1:47:30.880 --> 1:47:33.920
<v Speaker 2>police and this is a positive step. It's about to

1:47:33.920 --> 1:47:36.599
<v Speaker 2>get less positive, but the police find out, oh, there's

1:47:36.640 --> 1:47:39.439
<v Speaker 2>a report logged against this guy two years earlier, and

1:47:39.479 --> 1:47:42.920
<v Speaker 2>they reach out to Amelia and they're like, more women

1:47:42.920 --> 1:47:46.800
<v Speaker 2>have come forward saying that this guy assaulted them. Do

1:47:46.840 --> 1:47:50.879
<v Speaker 2>you want your charges? Do you want your allegations basically

1:47:50.960 --> 1:47:54.040
<v Speaker 2>to be added to theirs in this case that we're building, right,

1:47:55.880 --> 1:47:58.519
<v Speaker 2>And she says yes, and she hands over her phone

1:47:58.560 --> 1:48:01.920
<v Speaker 2>to the cops, which contained numerous audio notes because she

1:48:01.960 --> 1:48:04.639
<v Speaker 2>had told Andrew and like text and stuff like, Hey,

1:48:04.680 --> 1:48:06.120
<v Speaker 2>you know like you rate me. That's why I don't

1:48:06.120 --> 1:48:09.120
<v Speaker 2>want to know you anymore. And he had responded to her.

1:48:09.200 --> 1:48:12.639
<v Speaker 2>And he had responded to her using voice notes where

1:48:12.680 --> 1:48:17.720
<v Speaker 2>he admitted to what he had done and Yeah, I'm

1:48:17.760 --> 1:48:22.280
<v Speaker 2>gonna play a couple of notes of Andrew Tait here

1:48:22.400 --> 1:48:26.000
<v Speaker 2>for you, because before we hear him in his like

1:48:27.200 --> 1:48:31.840
<v Speaker 2>fifteen year old boy influencer voice, we should hear how

1:48:31.880 --> 1:48:35.679
<v Speaker 2>he talks to somebody like Amelia when he doesn't think

1:48:35.720 --> 1:48:37.880
<v Speaker 2>it's going to be on the news?

1:48:38.200 --> 1:48:41.519
<v Speaker 4>Am I a bad person? Because the more you didn't

1:48:41.560 --> 1:48:43.920
<v Speaker 4>like it, the more I enjoyed it. I fucking loved

1:48:43.920 --> 1:48:46.240
<v Speaker 4>how much you hate it.

1:48:45.520 --> 1:48:46.080
<v Speaker 5>Turn me on?

1:48:47.720 --> 1:48:51.479
<v Speaker 4>Why am I like that? Why? I am one of

1:48:51.479 --> 1:48:54.240
<v Speaker 4>the most dangerous men on this planet. Sometimes you forget

1:48:54.560 --> 1:48:57.120
<v Speaker 4>exactly how lucky you were to get fucked by me.

1:48:57.760 --> 1:48:59.680
<v Speaker 4>Would you rather me pin you down and make you

1:48:59.680 --> 1:49:01.719
<v Speaker 4>do things she didn't like? Or would you rather fuck

1:49:02.680 --> 1:49:04.600
<v Speaker 4>you didn't like that? I was thinking, I can do

1:49:04.680 --> 1:49:07.639
<v Speaker 4>whatever I want to you. That's what it is. I'm

1:49:07.680 --> 1:49:10.800
<v Speaker 4>the smartest person on this fucking planet. Are you seriously

1:49:10.800 --> 1:49:13.479
<v Speaker 4>so offended? I strangled you a little bit. You didn't

1:49:13.479 --> 1:49:17.800
<v Speaker 4>fucking pass out? Chill the fuck out, Jesus Christ. I

1:49:17.840 --> 1:49:19.200
<v Speaker 4>thought you were cool. What's wrong with you?

1:49:19.960 --> 1:49:22.200
<v Speaker 5>Oh my god?

1:49:22.960 --> 1:49:26.800
<v Speaker 2>So that's not great. That's not great.

1:49:26.960 --> 1:49:29.320
<v Speaker 5>That's so upsetting, that's so upsetting.

1:49:30.000 --> 1:49:32.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's pretty bad. He's he's a pretty bad dude.

1:49:34.280 --> 1:49:40.400
<v Speaker 1>And what's vile? Disgusting, despicable? Yeah, waste geta like again.

1:49:40.720 --> 1:49:43.479
<v Speaker 2>Normally self diagnosis is a thing we avoid on this,

1:49:43.600 --> 1:49:47.760
<v Speaker 2>but like, that's just very obvious textbook narcissism. I am

1:49:47.800 --> 1:49:50.800
<v Speaker 2>the smartest man in the world, you know, like he is,

1:49:50.960 --> 1:49:54.479
<v Speaker 2>It's not hard to see what's going on with this guy.

1:49:56.040 --> 1:49:57.960
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know his dad or like how that

1:49:58.000 --> 1:50:01.479
<v Speaker 2>all went down, but there's there's there's this if you

1:50:01.479 --> 1:50:03.000
<v Speaker 2>look at the way he talks about his dad and

1:50:03.080 --> 1:50:07.440
<v Speaker 2>his grandpa, there's this need to like associate himself with greatness.

1:50:08.800 --> 1:50:11.519
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know, like every everything that's going on

1:50:11.640 --> 1:50:19.360
<v Speaker 2>here makes sense, but it's also so bleak, and I

1:50:19.360 --> 1:50:21.799
<v Speaker 2>I don't know that there's probably a better a better

1:50:23.080 --> 1:50:25.000
<v Speaker 2>writer and thinker than me might be able to draw

1:50:25.400 --> 1:50:28.439
<v Speaker 2>a more trenchant connection between the kind of stuff that

1:50:28.479 --> 1:50:32.320
<v Speaker 2>I was talking about about, how lack of connection to

1:50:33.439 --> 1:50:36.519
<v Speaker 2>other men and to older men and how not knowing

1:50:36.680 --> 1:50:40.640
<v Speaker 2>what your place is in society leads young men to

1:50:40.960 --> 1:50:43.680
<v Speaker 2>feel disconnected and that that can be the root of

1:50:44.520 --> 1:50:48.320
<v Speaker 2>some bad behavior. And the fact that Tate idolizes his

1:50:48.400 --> 1:50:53.160
<v Speaker 2>dad and is separated from him and becomes so needful

1:50:53.320 --> 1:50:56.880
<v Speaker 2>to kind of convince others of his greatness while using

1:50:57.120 --> 1:51:00.920
<v Speaker 2>violence and threats against them. I don't know that there's

1:51:00.960 --> 1:51:04.559
<v Speaker 2>a connection there, but it's it's I think, kind of

1:51:04.600 --> 1:51:09.840
<v Speaker 2>worth thinking about. I guess in the same continuum, I

1:51:09.880 --> 1:51:12.559
<v Speaker 2>don't know, this is still stuff like that. I'm kind

1:51:12.560 --> 1:51:17.600
<v Speaker 2>of muddling through too, but it's it's not it's not

1:51:17.720 --> 1:51:23.920
<v Speaker 2>surprising to me that this guy has this this kind

1:51:23.960 --> 1:51:27.360
<v Speaker 2>of obsession with his because that's what it's about, right,

1:51:27.400 --> 1:51:30.400
<v Speaker 2>It's it's never about like that he wanted, you know,

1:51:30.560 --> 1:51:31.760
<v Speaker 2>sex or whatever. It's about that.

1:51:31.800 --> 1:51:32.639
<v Speaker 5>It's about this power.

1:51:33.040 --> 1:51:36.120
<v Speaker 2>It's about power he had this and it's about the

1:51:36.120 --> 1:51:37.880
<v Speaker 2>fact that she didn't want to have sex with him

1:51:38.000 --> 1:51:43.240
<v Speaker 2>is like an attempt from her to exercise agency. And

1:51:43.320 --> 1:51:45.839
<v Speaker 2>no one else in the world gets to exercise agency

1:51:46.000 --> 1:51:49.200
<v Speaker 2>just Andrew Taate, Right, Like that's the way this guy

1:51:49.240 --> 1:51:54.920
<v Speaker 2>thinks about things. I don't know. There's a lot going

1:51:54.960 --> 1:51:58.760
<v Speaker 2>on there worth worth pondering, and I guess we will

1:51:58.760 --> 1:52:01.280
<v Speaker 2>ponder it for a while while we wait for part

1:52:01.360 --> 1:52:03.439
<v Speaker 2>three of this series, where we will talk about the

1:52:03.479 --> 1:52:08.840
<v Speaker 2>fallout from these cases and the social media presence that

1:52:08.920 --> 1:52:12.920
<v Speaker 2>Tate builds. When again, nobody knows this ath I mean this,

1:52:12.920 --> 1:52:15.000
<v Speaker 2>this this young woman knows it, and a couple of

1:52:15.040 --> 1:52:19.479
<v Speaker 2>police officers know it. But as a spoiler, the police

1:52:19.479 --> 1:52:23.840
<v Speaker 2>don't proceed with the charges and in fact they uh,

1:52:24.680 --> 1:52:28.519
<v Speaker 2>it's really fucked up. The police say that they believe her,

1:52:28.640 --> 1:52:31.479
<v Speaker 2>or Amelia says what she said to to Vice when

1:52:31.479 --> 1:52:33.439
<v Speaker 2>they talked to her is that the police told her

1:52:33.479 --> 1:52:35.839
<v Speaker 2>that they believed her claims, but they couldn't go forward

1:52:35.880 --> 1:52:38.000
<v Speaker 2>with the case because there was a shred of doubt

1:52:38.080 --> 1:52:39.040
<v Speaker 2>about Tate's guilt.

1:52:41.280 --> 1:52:43.240
<v Speaker 1>Now and there's a shred of doubt.

1:52:43.040 --> 1:52:45.080
<v Speaker 2>And see it does seem like he admitted.

1:52:44.720 --> 1:52:45.880
<v Speaker 5>It directly.

1:52:47.479 --> 1:52:48.759
<v Speaker 1>Seeing a sexual predator.

1:52:48.840 --> 1:52:49.720
<v Speaker 2>What we.

1:52:51.600 --> 1:52:51.880
<v Speaker 1>Cop.

1:52:52.160 --> 1:52:54.720
<v Speaker 2>There's some fucked up cop gas lighting here because they

1:52:54.720 --> 1:52:59.559
<v Speaker 2>tell her like, look, going through the process of pressing

1:52:59.720 --> 1:53:02.479
<v Speaker 2>charge is against a rapist is so traumatic to the

1:53:02.520 --> 1:53:05.439
<v Speaker 2>woman that we don't do it unless there's no shred

1:53:05.520 --> 1:53:09.280
<v Speaker 2>of doubt. We're trying to protect you from the which

1:53:09.320 --> 1:53:12.880
<v Speaker 2>is like cop gas lighting is on another level.

1:53:14.640 --> 1:53:19.520
<v Speaker 1>That's it's hard. I'm so sorry, Amelia.

1:53:19.080 --> 1:53:23.799
<v Speaker 2>That's yeah, it's fucking Bleak's this whole story is bleak.

1:53:24.400 --> 1:53:27.280
<v Speaker 2>And after this point, Andrew and Tristan moved to Romania.

1:53:27.400 --> 1:53:30.680
<v Speaker 2>They move their sex trafficking webcam business to Romania, and

1:53:30.720 --> 1:53:34.280
<v Speaker 2>we will pick up that story in part three where

1:53:34.920 --> 1:53:37.639
<v Speaker 2>it gets a lot bleaker in some ways, but also

1:53:37.800 --> 1:53:40.280
<v Speaker 2>we get to make fun of Andrew tait videos.

1:53:40.040 --> 1:53:45.519
<v Speaker 1>So you know something to look forward to.

1:53:45.560 --> 1:53:49.880
<v Speaker 2>Take your wins where you can get them. Kiddos, what

1:53:49.920 --> 1:53:52.280
<v Speaker 2>do we? Who are we? Who are we here?

1:53:52.760 --> 1:53:52.960
<v Speaker 1>Ah?

1:53:53.800 --> 1:53:56.240
<v Speaker 5>We're the bad boys of podcasting obviously.

1:53:59.479 --> 1:54:02.679
<v Speaker 1>Uh well, all right, Robert, I think I think both

1:54:02.760 --> 1:54:06.080
<v Speaker 1>shows are actually sold out. But you will be at

1:54:06.200 --> 1:54:09.400
<v Speaker 1>SEF Sketch Best this coming weekend and you'll be doing

1:54:09.720 --> 1:54:11.960
<v Speaker 1>a behind the Bastard show and you will also be

1:54:12.000 --> 1:54:20.519
<v Speaker 1>doing Francesca Fiorentini, Yes, Orentini's The Bituation Room Show.

1:54:20.640 --> 1:54:26.960
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, great franchise is great Internet machine episode.

1:54:28.880 --> 1:54:29.559
<v Speaker 2>Rite something?

1:54:30.320 --> 1:54:30.519
<v Speaker 1>Why?

1:54:30.640 --> 1:54:30.840
<v Speaker 2>Why?

1:54:30.920 --> 1:54:31.120
<v Speaker 5>Yes?

1:54:31.280 --> 1:54:34.400
<v Speaker 1>Robert? Is a week from when we are recording this?

1:54:34.520 --> 1:54:37.880
<v Speaker 2>All right, Well, we will finish recording the Andrew Taite

1:54:37.920 --> 1:54:40.640
<v Speaker 2>episodes and then I will figure out what the fuck

1:54:40.680 --> 1:54:43.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm doing for this live show that apparently a bunch

1:54:43.520 --> 1:54:46.480
<v Speaker 2>of you assholes have decided to show up at God

1:54:46.600 --> 1:54:50.000
<v Speaker 2>damn you. Thank you all for buying tickets Before we

1:54:50.040 --> 1:54:52.640
<v Speaker 2>close out, I want to thank again April Clark and

1:54:52.720 --> 1:54:56.640
<v Speaker 2>Grace Freud of Girl God the Girl Got Podcast, both

1:54:56.640 --> 1:54:59.560
<v Speaker 2>great comedians. They have an upcoming show at JFO Vancouver

1:54:59.600 --> 1:55:01.920
<v Speaker 2>on fifth You Worry twenty fifth. People can get tickets

1:55:01.920 --> 1:55:05.400
<v Speaker 2>for that at Girlgodshow dot com. They were on the

1:55:05.480 --> 1:55:08.440
<v Speaker 2>early version of part of this, but I had an

1:55:08.480 --> 1:55:10.920
<v Speaker 2>emergency and we had to bounce, and now we are

1:55:10.960 --> 1:55:12.960
<v Speaker 2>recording this late at night because it is the only

1:55:13.040 --> 1:55:14.680
<v Speaker 2>way that we can make this show work in a

1:55:14.680 --> 1:55:18.160
<v Speaker 2>way that is we are contractually obligated to. So thank

1:55:18.520 --> 1:55:21.440
<v Speaker 2>you April and Grace, Thank you, Ian and Sophie for

1:55:21.560 --> 1:55:24.280
<v Speaker 2>being guests on my show last minute, and.

1:55:25.200 --> 1:55:29.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're fucking welcome. Robert, thank you, thank you.

1:55:29.680 --> 1:55:32.960
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. Everyone else can go to hell though.

1:55:36.600 --> 1:55:39.320
<v Speaker 1>Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1:55:39.640 --> 1:55:42.280
<v Speaker 1>For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1:55:42.360 --> 1:55:46.320
<v Speaker 1>Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1:55:46.400 --> 1:55:49.560
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

1:55:49.560 --> 1:55:53.640
<v Speaker 1>Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1:55:53.720 --> 1:55:57.400
<v Speaker 1>and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

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<v Speaker 1>At Behind the Bastards