1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert here. First off, we are doing a 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 2: rewind week because I've written two new Andrew Tait episodes, 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: but also myrith day came recently. We took some time off, 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 2: so we're gonna take this week to replay the first 6 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 2: fourth Tait episodes with ad breaks and stuff removed. I 7 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 2: also wanted to tell you Ed Zitron is in the 8 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 2: running for a webby for his show Better Offline, as 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 2: is Molly Conger for Weird Little Guys. Please go to 10 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 2: the Webbies vote for them. You can find the links 11 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 2: in the show notes along with their other links. You 12 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 2: can also just google ed Zitron, Webbies, Molly Conger Webbys 13 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: and you will find them. Please do vote for them. 14 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 2: We'll be back next week with two brand new episodes 15 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 2: on what Tait has been up to over the last 16 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 2: couple of years and a bunch of really fucked up 17 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 2: information that's come up. So please enjoy these episodes the 18 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 2: reruns with less ads, and go vote in the Webbies. 19 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 2: Welcome to him, motherfuckers. I'm Robert Eva. This is Behind 20 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: the Bastards, a podcast that has just encountered one of 21 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: the worst disasters of its career, So we'll get into 22 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 2: this more later. This is supposed to be and he's 23 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 2: going to be the first of several episodes about Andrew 24 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: Tait and the mythopoetic Men's movement that led to his 25 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 2: rise to fame and influence among a generation of young men. 26 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 2: We started recording this episode just a few hours ago 27 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 2: with the wonderful April Clark and Grace Freud of the 28 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: Girl God podcast they have anyway, we recorded a little 29 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 2: bit with them, and then I had a minor emergency 30 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: which has taken me out of the house for a while. 31 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: Things are okay, you don't need to flip out on 32 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,199 Speaker 2: Reddit or whatever, but it was a problem and we 33 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 2: were not able to record with them. To finish recording 34 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: with them, and because of the holiday, we have no backlog. 35 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,919 Speaker 2: So in order to get this episode done and ready 36 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 2: for our editor asap, Sophie is going to be my 37 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: guest today along with Ea, our editor, and we will 38 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 2: get this out as soon as possible because otherwise we 39 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 2: will not have a show. And we are contractually obligated 40 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 2: to provide you with entertainment every single week until the 41 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: heat death of the Universe. But I do want to 42 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,839 Speaker 2: shout out April and Grace, who are wonderful who came 43 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 2: on and booked time for us, and I'm sorry that 44 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: things got messed up. We will have them back on 45 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 2: the pod at some point in the near future, and 46 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: I wanted to let people know that there is They 47 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 2: have an upcoming show at JFO Vancouver on February twenty fifth, 48 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 2: and people can get tickets for that show at Girlgodshow 49 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: dot com. You can also check out their podcast just 50 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: type girl God and any of the things that have podcasts, 51 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 2: and you can listen to their awesome show. Thank you 52 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 2: so much again, April and Grace. I'm sorry that there 53 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 2: was a minor calamity. Now, welcome to the pod, Sophie 54 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,399 Speaker 2: and Ian. How are y'all. 55 00:02:55,080 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: Doing so well? So on Ian night in Johnson, by 56 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: the way, he edits a lot of our shows, and 57 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: it's also uh one half of Gladiator with fellow fellow 58 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: editor DJ Danel. All right, and we do have the 59 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: full Gladiator on staff, which I like to bring up 60 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: as much as possible. 61 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. 62 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 3: I appreciate the love. And yeah, you know it's Friday. 63 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 3: Ready for the weekend. Let's talk some Tate. You know, 64 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 3: let's let's do it. 65 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: Friday, get into it Friday, but also almost Saturday. 66 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 4: Uh. 67 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: And Ian is currently in his closet. 68 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 2: And we we may start drinking in the in the 69 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 2: near future. 70 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: It might need to happen. Yeah, let's do it, all right, Robert. 71 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: But yeah, Ian, I actually have you been on just 72 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: as one of our podcasts before you you have known 73 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 2: this first? Uh? Well, you know, Ian, people should know 74 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 2: about you again. You're you're one half of Gladiator. You 75 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 2: are a longtime friend of our other editor, DJ Danel. 76 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 2: You are a legendary podcast editor. And you had absolutely 77 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 2: no involvement in the July sixteenth plane crash that cost 78 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 2: John F. Kennedy Junior his life off the Massachusetts coast. 79 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 2: No involvement at all. No know why people, Yeah, don't 80 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: bring it up. We had nothing to do with it. 81 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: Why are you talking about that? 82 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 2: I just to let people know Ian had nothing to 83 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: do with it. Ian, Sophie, What do y'all know about 84 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: Andrew Tait? 85 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 3: So my limited knowledge of him is he's a I believe, 86 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 3: a former MMA fighter who I don't know how he 87 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 3: made a lot of money, but it seems like he 88 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 3: has a lot of money from what he've seen on 89 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 3: the internet. 90 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 2: We'll be talking about how Yeah. 91 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 3: And he's into a lot of misogynistic men rights kind 92 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 3: of stuff. And he got thoroughly destroyed online by Greta, 93 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 3: So I do remember that, and I think he's in 94 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 3: jail now. 95 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 2: He is in jail now, unrelated to the Greta stuff. 96 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 2: There was a little bit of a confusion about that, 97 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 2: but yes, he is in jail for sex trafficking in Romania. Sophie, 98 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: Is that more or less your understanding of the guy? 99 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, he fucking sucks. 100 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, he does. Indeed, he does. Indeed fucking suck. Unfortunately, 101 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: he's also kind of worth studying in detail because he's 102 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: managed to do something with social media that I don't 103 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: think anyone else has ever managed the same degree of 104 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: success he has. He's he's smart in one very specific way. 105 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 2: Even though he also did a bunch of dumb things 106 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: and some really dumb crimes that hopefully have ruined his life. 107 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 2: He was he was smart, and one in a way 108 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: that has allowed him to become dangerously influential to an 109 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 2: entire generation of teenage boys, in a way that like 110 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 2: no one on earth has managed quite yet. Donald Trump 111 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 2: is really the only other guy that I might put 112 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 2: next to Tate in that kind and I think Tit 113 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 2: has a wider appeal among gen Z teens and tweens 114 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: than certainly Trump. 115 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting to see the spaces where Tate's content show. 116 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're going to be talking about all that. I 117 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 2: am one of the things when I started looking into 118 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 2: this guy, there's a ton of articles about because he 119 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 2: blew up kind of mid twenty twenty one up until 120 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 2: you know the arrest a couple of weeks ago, there's 121 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 2: not profile articles on him that like go into detail 122 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: about his background, in his past and his entire rise 123 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 2: to power. You'll generally the best articles you'll find in 124 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,559 Speaker 2: places like BuzzFeed or I think we have a couple 125 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 2: from like The Guardian. They'll like summarize his backstory in 126 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 2: two or three paragraphs. I wanted to get into who 127 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 2: this guy is and where he came from, because he 128 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: kind of pops out of nowhere if you don't follow that. 129 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 2: I think this is the first time anyone's really done that, 130 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 2: So I think this will be valuable for that. But 131 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 2: I want to start by laying out why we have 132 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 2: to take Tit seriously and kind of explain the scale 133 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 2: of sort of his influence. I am not exaggerating when 134 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 2: I say that he is maybe the most influential single 135 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 2: person on teen pre teen mails in the US and 136 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: the UK and some other parts of the West than 137 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: anyone else on planet Earth. In fall of twenty twenty two, 138 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 2: financial services company Piper Sandler released a survey of fourteen 139 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 2: five hundred US teens taken between August and September of 140 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: that year. Tate was the number one influencer on the 141 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: list in terms of popularity. He beat Kanye West, he 142 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 2: beat mister Beast, he beat Dwayne the Rock Johnson, all. 143 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: Of them, not Beast. 144 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 2: I yeah, I don't know who mister Beast is, but 145 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 2: he's he's a YouTuber. Yeah, he's a YouTuber. I know 146 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: Elon Musk joked about giving him control of Twitter or 147 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: he asked whatever. I don't know anything about him. I'm 148 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 2: sure you're fine, mister Beast, or he's horrible. 149 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: It is horrible to say anybody who's that famous on YouTube. 150 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: I'm a little bit like, yeah. 151 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 2: No, good people get famous on YouTube, which is what 152 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: I text our friend Cody Johnston every single day when 153 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: he releases a new YouTube video. Anyway, the Andrew Tait 154 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: hashtag on TikTok has received more than ten billion views 155 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: over the course of twenty twenty two alone, which is 156 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 2: fucking nuts. That is in that is insane, that is 157 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: like incomprehensibly viral. He was Also, he will always claim 158 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 2: that he's like the most Googled person on Earth. I 159 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: looked into what he actually is. That's not quite it. 160 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: He is the he is the number one when you 161 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 2: type in who is into Google? Who is Andrew Tait 162 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 2: is the number one who is question asked of Google 163 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two, which is not the same as 164 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: being the most google person on Earth, although he is 165 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 2: one of the most google people on Earth. I found 166 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: a couple of lists of that, and he's often at 167 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 2: like number eight, someplace closer to like ten, but like 168 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 2: he's incredibly famous. 169 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: I just tested that and it isn't fact true. 170 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 3: Yes, the top ten most Google person on the planet 171 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 3: is that's your that's that's a lot of people. 172 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 2: That is a fuckload of people. And and in some 173 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 2: counts he's like beating Donald Trump, which again Trump was 174 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 2: the literal president. And it's interesting because his career you 175 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 2: can compare him to a guy like Joe Rogan right 176 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: Joe his career, there's nothing that people like. Wonder why 177 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: he's popular, but there's no mystery as to how he 178 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 2: became popular. He's got a very he's been consistently. The 179 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: trajector is, yeah, very very consistent guy, constantly in the limelight, 180 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: constantly doing stuff. Not hard to see where he came from. 181 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 2: Tate is a kickboxer for a while and then kind 182 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 2: of drops off, is just sort of a guy on 183 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 2: Instagram and then is suddenly the most famous influencer on 184 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 2: the planet, seemingly overnight. And this is not an accident. 185 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 2: This isn't also something He didn't just get surprised because 186 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: something of has happened to go viral. This was the 187 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 2: result of a tactic I haven't seen anyone else use, 188 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: or certainly not to the degree of success that Tate used. 189 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: And the tactic that he unleashed not only made him 190 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 2: as popular, but it made him popular enough that you 191 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 2: can find articles about schools in the US and the 192 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: UK holding seminars for young male students and for teachers 193 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 2: to try to talk about de radicalizing kids who have 194 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: got to have fallen under Tate's spell when I posted 195 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: a comment about him during his spat with Tunberg, just 196 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 2: because I was frustrated at the degree I had not 197 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: with Greta's response to him, which I thought was totally fair, 198 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 2: but with like people kind of cheering it on as 199 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: if he'd been beaten by it, where my concern was like, well, 200 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: the attention historically has just kind of made him more popular. 201 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 2: And there were a bunch of comments in that post 202 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 2: I made by teachers who were like, I don't think 203 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 2: people understand how popular he is with like thirteen, fourteen, 204 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 2: fifteen year old boys. I talk to kids every day 205 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: who worship the guy, and I've never seen anything like it. 206 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 3: A lot of my really good friends Jack This is 207 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 3: actually a few weeks ago, we were hanging out and 208 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 3: he was like kind of joking but also serious. He 209 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 3: was like, I know, I'm like, it would be scary 210 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 3: to be a thirteen year old boy right now because 211 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 3: of the inundation of this kind of stuff that you're 212 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 3: seeing all day every day. And he was like, I'm 213 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 3: not gonna lie. If I was thirteen or fourteen and 214 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 3: didn't know better, I could probably fall for a lot 215 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 3: of this stuff. It's like I could imagine being that 216 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 3: age right now and just being flooded with that. 217 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think about that sort of thing in a 218 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 2: lot of I'll talk about kind of there's elements of 219 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 2: Tate's pitch that I think might have worked on me 220 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 2: when I was seventeen eighteen years old. Particularly, A big 221 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 2: part of it is like working a shit job that 222 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 2: you hate for the entirety of your youth is bullshit, 223 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 2: which it is, like, it's a terrible way to spend 224 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 2: a life doing the thing you hate forever. And if 225 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 2: you kind of if that's the hook you're leading with, 226 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 2: rather than what a lot of male influencers lead in with, 227 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: which is like, here's how to pick up chicks. You know, 228 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 2: that's an interesting spin that he's put. We get it. 229 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 2: We'll get more into his pitch and like, what about 230 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 2: it is not new? And what about it is new? 231 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: But I wanted to I want to start by kind 232 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 2: of explaining who tilled the soil that Tate grew up in. 233 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: And to do that we have to travel back in 234 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 2: time to the nineteen nineties and the work of the 235 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 2: first real modern masculinity. 236 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: Guru in U history. 237 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 2: Now we've talked about guys like Bernard McFadden in the 238 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 2: past who had elements of that where he's big into 239 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 2: physical culture and getting buff and he talks about like, 240 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 2: you know, how modernity is making men weak. But the 241 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 2: Robert Bli is the guy who Jordan Peterson is cutting 242 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 2: his image, and so do Degree is a guy like 243 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 2: Andrew Tait. He is the first guy to kind of 244 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 2: bring both academic rigor and also this kind of focus 245 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 2: on the damage capitalism has done to masculinity into this 246 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 2: kind of it's become the men's rights movements, it's become 247 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 2: the pickup artist community. That's not what it was called 248 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 2: at the time. But yeah, Robert Elwood Bli is the 249 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 2: name of the guy who kind of kicked all of 250 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 2: this off. And he's not the dude you'd think he was. 251 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: He's an American poet. By some accounts, he's one of 252 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 2: the most influential poets in American history. And he was 253 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: born on December twenty third, nineteen twenty six, in Minnesota. Initially, 254 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 2: Bli seemed to be on certainly not the path that 255 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 2: he wound up on. He goes to Harvard University, he 256 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 2: studies at the Iowa Writers Workshop. He receives a full 257 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 2: Fulbright scholarship to go to Norway and translate Norwegian poetry 258 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 2: into English. And during this time he also gets connected 259 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 2: to these great poets who are not Westerners, like Pablo 260 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 2: Naruta and Rumi, and they influence his understanding of art 261 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: and the myths that underlie it. And it also leads 262 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 2: him to feel that like modern contemporary American poetry is 263 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 2: kind of hollow and lacks a connection to this kind 264 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 2: of deeper mythology that he sees in some of these 265 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 2: Eastern poets and some of these poets from other parts 266 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 2: of the world that aren't the United States that he 267 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 2: feels are making a deeper connection to things. 268 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: This pinion just a personal preference, But I find the 269 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: Iowa's Writer's Workshop to be a red flag. 270 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, wait wait, I don't know much about it. 271 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 2: Tell me why is this? 272 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: No, it's just it's just one of those things that 273 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: gets uh overused in TV as like, oh, I need 274 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: to go to this thing. It's like it has like 275 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: a a weird, weird elitism to it that uh yeah. 276 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 2: I mean that. I feel that way about Harvard too. 277 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of weird lead elitism. Red flags, 278 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: where I'm like, uh, but yeah, hearing wearing Harvard University 279 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: followed by Iowa Writers Workshop is usually not the best. 280 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: Oh and then and then there's the full yeah, full 281 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: bright grant, so it's you know, yeah, yeah. 282 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 2: Fact Iowa Writers Workshop. Sophie says, go to hell fuck off. 283 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: Apparently that's right, motherfuckers. I don't know much about the 284 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 2: Iowa Writers' Workshop, but that's his background. And again this 285 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 2: is also he's coming. He's doing this at an earlier time. 286 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 2: I mean, Harvard was very very much that kind of thing, 287 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: but I don't know. Maybe the Iowa Writers Workshop was 288 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 2: was not. I don't know. His first poem of collection 289 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: of poems, which was called Silence in the Snowby Fields, 290 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: was published in nineteen sixty two, and it focused on 291 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: moments of solitude and beauty, as we see in this piece. 292 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 2: Driving to town late to mail a letter, it is 293 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 2: a cold and snowy night. The main street is deserted. 294 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 2: The only things moving are swirls of snow. As I 295 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 2: lift the mailbox door, I feel it's cold iron. There 296 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 2: is a privacy I love in this snowy night. Driving around, 297 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 2: I will waste more time, which is just like this nice, 298 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 2: quiet little Certainly you don't see any red flags there. 299 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: It's just kind of a poem about one of those 300 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: quiet moments that you have in your life. You know. 301 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: It's I don't know, I don't find it deeply affecting, 302 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 2: but there's certainly like it's not like he's writing anything 303 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: you would see a problem with, Yeah, for sure. The 304 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 2: next year he published an influential essay in which he 305 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: attacked mainstream American poetry as impersonal, lacking in soul, and 306 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: a willingness to look inward. His criticism of American society 307 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: expanded after that, and in nineteen sixty six he co 308 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 2: founded the American Writers Against the Vietnam War. He is 309 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: one of the very first prominent American artists to try 310 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 2: and organize artists against the war, which is I mean good, 311 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 2: because it was a bad war. In nineteen sixty eight, 312 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 2: he made a public promise to refuse to pay taxes 313 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: until the end of the war, and he also made 314 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 2: he made some very trenchiant critiques of US imperialism. In 315 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven, he wrote an article for the New 316 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 2: York Review of Books in which he noted the fact 317 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 2: that so few Americans have resigned from the government or 318 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 2: from responsible posts to protest. The Vietnam War is remarkable 319 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: to me. And he's bringing up also cases of like 320 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 2: the Russian Revolution and stuff, where you would have these 321 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: horrible wars being prosecuted by regimes that are on paper 322 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: a lot less free than the United States, but also 323 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: would have a lot more defections or people just like 324 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 2: refusing to do their jobs because they believed that of 325 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: course that the sovereign had set was unethical. And he's like, 326 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 2: why isn't this happening in American government? Why is no 327 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 2: one refusing to be a part of the Vietnam War? 328 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 2: And he went on to ask, can we imagine General 329 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 2: Westmoreland resigning and refusing to prosecute a brutal war? Never 330 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 2: pilots drop anti personnel bombs on small North Vietnamese villages 331 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 2: and many of them hate it, but they don't resign 332 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 2: with a public statement of protest. They quietly retire when 333 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 2: their tour is over. Bli wondered what this showed about Americans? 334 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 2: Are we timid? Are we greedy? He thought not, And 335 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 2: this is what he wrote. What it shows is a 336 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 2: disastrous split between the Americans inner and outer worlds. He 337 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 2: does not aim to use his life to make himself whole, 338 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 2: to join the two worlds in himself. On the contrary, 339 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 2: he is prepared to give up one of the two worlds. 340 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:31,959 Speaker 2: The business man gives up the inner world and clings 341 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 2: to the outer as his way. A large body of 342 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 2: literature denounces the business man for taking the one world 343 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 2: without the other. But when a writer is opposed to 344 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,679 Speaker 2: the Vietnam War and still accepts a grant from the 345 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 2: government prosecuting of the war, he is doing something similar. 346 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 2: He is letting the world split. He lets the outer 347 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: world go by him with just a wave of his hand, 348 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 2: and then he reaches out and pulls the inner world 349 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 2: to him. He accepts the money for the sake of 350 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: my work. It will enable him to live in his 351 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 2: inner world. But the disastrous split has already taken place 352 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 2: before where he begins to use the money for his 353 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 2: work instead of trying to apply what he has learned 354 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 2: in the actions of his inner life to the actions 355 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 2: of the world. He pulls back inside the house, closes 356 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 2: the door, and declares he doesn't know what is going 357 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: on out there, or knows, but has rejected it all 358 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 2: is outside his sphere of influence or his interest. He 359 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 2: is not political, But what could be more within the 360 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 2: sphere of interest of a writer than the world. And 361 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 2: I actually find that a really affecting critique. I think 362 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 2: about that a lot, just in terms of, like number one, 363 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 2: this desire, I have a lot where I'll just be 364 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 2: kind of like churning through the muck of a bunch 365 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: of horrible stories about bullshit going on in Congress, or 366 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: like see some horrible Twitter thing culture warshit roll up, 367 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 2: and want to feel this urge to like, well, fuck this, 368 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 2: I don't want to pay attention to this anymore. I 369 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 2: just want to discard this from my life and focus 370 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 2: on this piece of art or creativity that And I 371 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 2: think most people feel that, most reasonable people feel that 372 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 2: way a lot. And what he's saying is like, how 373 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 2: can you call yourself a writer? How can you call 374 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: yourself an artist and attempt to discard the outer world 375 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 2: in favor of the one that you focus on for 376 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 2: your creativity, Like how can you actually be connected to 377 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 2: your inner world in any way and feel as if 378 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 2: you can pretend the outer world does not exist? You're 379 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 2: doing the same thing as a businessman who focuses entirely 380 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 2: on his desire to make money and ignores his spiritual development. Like, 381 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 2: there's not a fundamental moral difference between what the two 382 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 2: of you are doing, because you're both you're both rejecting 383 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:41,239 Speaker 2: half of your being in order to stick with the 384 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 2: one that's more comfortable because of whatever you've chosen as 385 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 2: your profession. And in the case of yeah, I don't know, 386 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 2: I found an attrenchient critique that makes me think a 387 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 2: lot about myself. M Maybe check out what Bligh has 388 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 2: to say about the Vietnam War. And he put his 389 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 2: money where his mouth was. He used that article to 390 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 2: republish a letter he sent to the chairman of the 391 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,959 Speaker 2: National Foundation on the Arts and Humanities because they had 392 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 2: offered him a five thousand dollars grant, and he turns 393 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 2: it down because he's like, look, this is a this 394 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 2: is an instrument of the United States government, and I 395 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: am opposed to a war they are waging. And even 396 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 2: though I could argue that, like, well, if I take 397 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 2: this money and won't get spent on bombs, what I'm 398 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 2: really doing is providing legitimacy to the state that is 399 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 2: carrying out this terrible war. And I'm simply not going 400 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 2: to do that. I'm going to choose to refuse to 401 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 2: support it in any way even by letting it support me, which, 402 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 2: whether or not you agree with it, is a deeply 403 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 2: principled stance that requires sacrificing something. 404 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, so when does he when the sport right? 405 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 2: He's not a bad guy so far. 406 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm waiting. Yeah, this is this is not cool 407 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: people who did cool stuff? 408 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 2: No, no, no, So spoiler alert, the Vietnam War ends. 409 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 2: We don't do great goes. Okay for Vietnam though, well, 410 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 2: I mean, millions of people die, but they do win. 411 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 2: Bli remains an influential poet and thinker. In the nineteen seventies, 412 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 2: he organizes the first Great Mother Conference, which is still 413 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: going on today. It's a nine day festival that explores 414 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: human consciousness and it celebrates this kind of archetypal idea 415 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 2: of the Great Mother as this kind of like feminine 416 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 2: creative force that you know, underlies everything in society. And 417 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 2: Bli the reason why he felt it was important to 418 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 2: kind of bring consciousness and get people focused on this 419 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 2: idea and on this celebration of femininity is that he 420 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 2: saw the Vietnam war as kind of the expression of masculinity, 421 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 2: like running wild and leading to terrible death, and he 422 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 2: believed that Americans needed to reconnect with femininity in the 423 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 2: wake of the Vietnam War, which is again not an 424 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 2: unreasonable stance. You know, you can argue with it, but 425 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: you can see where he's coming from. 426 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: And they're like both waiting for it. 427 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 2: Wait for the shooting job. Motherfucker's common. Motherfucker is common. Yeah, 428 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 2: So as the aftershocks of Vietnam faded, America enters the 429 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 2: swing in eighties, Blige becomes concerned with something else entirely. 430 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 2: He sees in the Reagan years, this vapid consumer culture, 431 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 2: you know, malls and shit, the the increasing spread of 432 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 2: popular music is like a concept in a way that 433 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 2: it really happened, the spread, Like, I mean, look again TV, 434 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 2: there's a lot of transgressive shit on TV today. TV 435 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,360 Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties was not what it is now. 436 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 2: So he sees all this happening, and he he also 437 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 2: just sees, like, again, what kind of Reaganism and unrestrained 438 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 2: capitalism is doing to people. And he begins to believe 439 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 2: that the kind of soullessness and brokenness at the at 440 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 2: the core of the American experiment is the result now 441 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 2: of crisis in masculinity. Right, So previously he had Yeah, 442 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 2: there's an extent to which he thinks, like, I don't know, 443 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 2: we'll get into what he thinks. So in nineteen ninety 444 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 2: he writes a book that is kind of illustrating the 445 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 2: things that he's he started to feel here, and he 446 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 2: calls it Iron John, a book about men. Now, have 447 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 2: you heard of the fairy Tale of Iron John? Ian? 448 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 5: No so familiar? 449 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 2: No, No, you're not big Grim's fairy Tales people. That's fine, 450 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 2: neither am I. I had not heard about this either. 451 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 2: I think maybe it's bigger in Germany. 452 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: Is Grim's fairy Tales? Red Flog continuing, Yeah, oh. 453 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,400 Speaker 2: Wow, Wow, that's a red flag one of the greatest 454 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 2: works of art. And I'm gonna guess German history, Sophie Robert. Wow, 455 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 2: I feel like you just hate German history reflexively for 456 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 2: reasons that have nothing to do with anything that has 457 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 2: ever happened in history. 458 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: Hmm, I'm in on that. 459 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 2: Wow wow, well, Red Flag. 460 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 5: Sund that what he does? 461 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 2: I think Iron John again, it's a fairy tale, and 462 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 2: I think I'll give a brief summary of how that 463 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: fairy tale goes. It's because it's again none of us 464 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 2: are I. 465 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: Mean, you brought it up. You should tell us what 466 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: the I'll tell you. 467 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 2: I'm gonna do it, so goddamn it. From a rite 468 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 2: up in the New York magazine. Here, that story goes 469 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 2: like this. Something in the forest is killing a kingdom's hunters. 470 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 2: A stranger arrives, goes into the forest with his dog, 471 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 2: and returns with a large hairy man he's extracted from 472 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 2: a pond. This is the wild man whom the king 473 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 2: locks in a cage. The king's son, playing with his ball, 474 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 2: lets it slip into the cage, and the wild man 475 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 2: tells him he'll give it back if the boy steals 476 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 2: the key to the cage from under his mother's pillow 477 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 2: and sets him free. The boy unlocks the cage, but 478 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 2: fearful that he'll be in trouble with his parents, flees 479 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 2: on the wild man's back to the forest. After the 480 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 2: boy fails a series of trials and wires a head 481 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 2: of golden hair, the wild man kicks him out of 482 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 2: the forest, but after he sinks to the low status 483 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 2: of a kitchen worker in a foreign kingdom. The wild 484 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 2: Man helps him become a mighty warrior, and he wins 485 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: the hand of the Princess, is reunited with his parents, 486 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 2: and becomes the rich, heroic king in his own right. 487 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 2: So you know, I think we're probably missing some context there, 488 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 2: just from culture. But it's like I get why that's 489 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 2: not in like the the tight five of Grim's fairy tales, 490 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 2: Like that's that's maybe the one you leave on the 491 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 2: cutting room floor. 492 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 5: That's like the B sides. 493 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's like a B side. Yeah, that's like, that's like, 494 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 2: I don't know, the one of the one of the 495 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 2: Beatles songs that people don't talk about that much anymore. 496 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: Well, to be fair, like it's up against like snow 497 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: white cinderelative exactly. 498 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 2: It's not a fairy tale. It would be funny to 499 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 2: see like modern Disney try to do this. 500 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, the actually rooms fairy tales are pretty horrific, 501 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 1: to be honest. 502 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, this one it also might be one of the 503 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 2: tamer ones. I don't know, I'm not an expert on 504 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 2: fairy tales. 505 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: Well that's why Disney was like mm to tame not 506 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: into it. 507 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 2: And again I feel like I feel like This is 508 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 2: an example. I think sometimes we look at these stories 509 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 2: that have been around a long time and are like, wow, 510 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 2: you know, there's some deep wisdom in there, which is 511 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 2: why we should keep telling them. But I'm looking at this, 512 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 2: which is it's it's a parable about manhood, right and 513 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 2: about becoming an adult. And I'm like, you know, it's 514 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 2: a better parable about manhood and becoming an adult for 515 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 2: Star Wars movie. 516 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 5: That's a good point. 517 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 2: Much better one, much better one. Look, George Lucas knocked 518 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 2: it out of the park. Fuck you Grim. You know 519 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 2: who else is George Lucas? 520 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: No, Robert, who else is George Lucas? 521 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 2: The sponsor of this podcast? 522 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: I mean that would be sold. 523 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 2: Actually, George, you have the cash sponsor this podcast. Uh, 524 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 2: and we'll we'll we'll make it work. Buddy, we got 525 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 2: you anyway, Uh we are back and no but maybe okay. 526 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 2: So here we are, we're talking, we're having a good time. 527 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 2: So Blig's book looks at this myth of iron John 528 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 2: and he re examines the myth using young in psychology, 529 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 2: which is again another red flag. There's perfectly valid reasons 530 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,239 Speaker 2: to study young, but whenever you have somebody who is 531 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 2: reevaluating myths using young in psychology, they always turned into 532 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 2: Jordan B. Peterson. I'm sorry, that's just the way that 533 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 2: it works. So he's trying to find lessons that are 534 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 2: going to be meaningful for men struggling with modernity, and 535 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 2: his basic conclusion, as far as I can tell, is 536 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 2: that men need rewilding in order to fix the things 537 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 2: that are driving them crazy. Right, they need to reconnect 538 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 2: with the wild man inside them. Now, this is going 539 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 2: to be This is the root of a million kinds 540 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 2: of influenzer garbage, right, everything in that funck. Like you 541 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 2: guys know the liver King, that guy who was telling 542 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 2: people that he got super jacked by eating nothing but 543 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 2: raw animal livers that he hunted. He's spending twelve thousand 544 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,959 Speaker 2: dollars a month on steroids, which he lied about. Now 545 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,199 Speaker 2: he's getting sued for one hundred million dollars because he 546 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 2: defrauded people by convincing them to take his liver enzyme pills. 547 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 2: So funny. But what the liver King is doing is 548 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 2: this is he's basically setting it, pretending to be the 549 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 2: wild man that BLI talks about and being like, this 550 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 2: is what you have to do in order to be 551 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 2: healthy and deal with all of these toxic things about 552 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 2: our modern lives is go out and throw spears at 553 00:28:55,520 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 2: bores and then eat their raw, uncooked organs, which I 554 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 2: would actually say is a lot less masculine than doing 555 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 2: the thing that our actual caveman ancestors did, which was 556 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 2: learn how to cook meat. 557 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 5: But you make a really good point. 558 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also the root of wed. We just started 559 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 2: this year with a couple of more episodes of Jordan B. 560 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 2: Peterson's show. He talks a lot about the need for 561 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 2: men to be controllable beasts, and also references another Grim's 562 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 2: fairy tale. The one that he chooses is, well, I 563 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 2: think it's a Grim's fairy tale, fucking Beauty and the Beast. 564 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe not. Maybe that started as a 565 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 2: Disney thing. I don't know where it started. But he 566 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 2: talks a lot about like this. Again, all of these 567 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 2: guys today who are talking about you have to be primal, 568 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 2: you have to reconnect with your caveman roots. 569 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 3: You have to Okay, I saw I think I saw 570 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 3: Jordan B. Peterson like video on Instagram the other day, 571 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 3: and I didn't know it was him. I was just 572 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 3: scrolling and he was. But now that you say that, 573 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure it was him because he was talking 574 00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 3: about how men should be dangerous, Like yeah, dangerous, but 575 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 3: it's like knowing when to use the threat of violence 576 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 3: or not. It's like, just because you're dangerous doesn't mean 577 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 3: you're like a violent person, but you should have that 578 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 3: capacity or some shit, that's what makes you a true man. 579 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 5: It's like, what, yeah, crazy. 580 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 2: It's I mean, And that's you can see like Peterson 581 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 2: is not an and he never has been an original thinker. 582 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 2: He's cribbing from Bly, right, they all are. Bli is 583 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 2: the origin of this. And it's also worth noting that 584 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 2: while Bli's book has been the descendants of Bli's book 585 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 2: are pure reactionary gibberish, Bli himself was not. Again, we 586 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 2: went through this guy's background. He's he's a deeper thinker 587 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 2: than that, and there's passages in his book that are 588 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 2: kind of worth connecting with. So I'm going to read 589 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 2: a quote from that now to judge by men's lives 590 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 2: in New Guinea, Kenya, North Africa, Zulu Lands, and in 591 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: the Arab and Persian culture favored flavored by Sufi communities, 592 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 2: men have lived together in heart unions and sole connections 593 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 2: for hundreds of thousands of years. Contemporary business life allows 594 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 2: competitive relationships only, which the major emotions are anxiety, tension, loneliness, rivalry, 595 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 2: and fear after work. What do men do collect in 596 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 2: a bar to hold light conversations over light beer? Unities 597 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 2: that are broken off whenever a young woman comes by 598 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 2: or touches the brim of someone's cowboy hat. Having no 599 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 2: soul union with other men can be the most damaging 600 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: wound of all, and the cowboy hat things kind of weird, 601 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 2: But that's a totally valid point. The lack of intimate 602 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 2: male to male friendship is a deep problem in ourself. 603 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: Light beer, I. 604 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 2: I mean, because I think he's just sort of I mean, okay, whatever, 605 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 2: he's getting into a little bit of masculinity there. The 606 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: point is, like, fucker, yeah, sorry, Sophie, famous lover of 607 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 2: light beer. It's okay. I love I love my champagne 608 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 2: beer too. I just I had some lovely I actually 609 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 2: wish I had some Peroni right Nowightful Peroni is a lovely, nice, wonderful, 610 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 2: especially on a hot day. 611 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've done I've. 612 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 2: Gone on long runs with nothing but a backpack of 613 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 2: Peroni to keep me going. 614 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: That sounds very believable. 615 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 2: Paroni. It is essentially water. 616 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 5: I can smell the dolls coming in. 617 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, sponsorous cowards. 618 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 2: But you see it, like what he's making there, and 619 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 2: this is not a point that like, this is not 620 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: a point Andrew Tate would make, right, because these guys 621 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,959 Speaker 2: are all hyper competitive and that's a huge part of 622 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 2: like what they're talking about, whereas one of the like 623 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 2: Bly is at his core, a large part of what 624 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 2: he's complaining about is totally rational, which is like, again, 625 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: allowed to it. 626 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: Where is it? Yeh? Where is this way? 627 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 2: Well, that's not the only thing in the book. He's 628 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 2: also talking a lot of. 629 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we're getting to it, okay. 630 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 2: Iron John spends sixty two weeks on the New York 631 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 2: seller list. Yeah, I only anything gets spends that long 632 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 2: in the best seller listed. 633 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: It's a long ass time. 634 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 5: Yes, that is that is innies still. 635 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety to ninety one, 636 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 2: because it's on there for more than a year, and 637 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 2: it turned Bly from a respected poet and activist into 638 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 2: the first masculinity guru in modern US history. Now again, 639 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 2: we had guys like Bonnara McFadden before, who had talked 640 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 2: about aspects of this. But BLI is wrapping his arguments 641 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: and respected academia, and the way he's connecting with his 642 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 2: people is exactly the same as the kind of shit 643 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 2: that Jordan Peterson and other folks do today, Guys like 644 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 2: Ivan Throne and whatnot who were in the masculinity influencer thing. 645 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 2: He's doing conferences, He's having rooms full of people, men 646 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,479 Speaker 2: gather and he's speaking to them, and he's like running 647 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 2: them through. He's basically bringing them to these moments of 648 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: emotional height, and you can see some there's a little 649 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 2: bit of Werner Earhard in this. You know, there's a 650 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 2: reason this is all coming out at the same time 651 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 2: as we start to get the self help craze hit. 652 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 2: But he's basically holding these big pep rallies for adult men. 653 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety one, more than a thousand men went 654 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 2: to see him at the Eastfold Auditorium in Parkland, Washington, 655 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 2: paying seventy five nineteen ninety one dollars lois for the privilege. Yeah. 656 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 2: A contemporary article in Entertainment Weekly describes the scene thusly, 657 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,280 Speaker 2: as the customers file in a dozen white guys flail 658 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: away incompetently on African drums. When the crowd is seated, 659 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 2: the drummers quit the stage, and Bly and Michael Mead, 660 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: a storyteller who helps run the workshops, begin to recite, 661 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 2: rambling myths and bits of verse. Meat occasionally bangs a bongo, 662 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 2: Bly plinks a bazouki, the Greek version of the Mandolins, 663 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 2: sending mournful notes wafting out over the audience. So that 664 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 2: sounds good, right, It sounds like a fun time. 665 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, it sounds like a great way to spend seventy fight. 666 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I always love white guys playing African drums in 667 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 2: my gigantic stadium speech series by a fucking poet. Anyway, Bly, 668 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 2: who in nineteen eighty four had been called the most 669 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 2: influential living American poet by current biography, became a kind 670 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 2: of celebrity that hadn't previously existed. So he's filling stadiums 671 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 2: with people who want to hear him talk. But he's 672 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 2: also he's engaging them in a way that's going to 673 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 2: spawn the modern men's self help industry. Quote Bli urges 674 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 2: men to rediscover their manhood by getting back to their 675 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 2: wild nature. Some feminists, he says, in a justified fear 676 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 2: of brutality, have labored to breed fierceness out of men, 677 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 2: creating the sort of soft male of whom Teddy Roosevelt 678 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 2: might have said, I could carve a better man out 679 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 2: of a banana. Bli believes that inside of every such male, 680 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 2: there's a wild man yearning to get out, a radiant 681 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,760 Speaker 2: inner king, just waiting to confirm masculine pride and suareness 682 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 2: of purpose. Bli insists he doesn't blame women for men's 683 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: sorry state. He blames older men who have failed to 684 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 2: provide young ones with the role models they crave. In 685 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,320 Speaker 2: traditional societies, boys worked alongside men, plowing fields and fashioning arrowheads, 686 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 2: but the Industrial Revolution severed that connection. The title character 687 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 2: and his bestseller is a wild hairy fellow who, in 688 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 2: a grim fairy tale, is fished up from a pond 689 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 2: and becomes a boy's mentor. That image is also the 690 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 2: inspiration for his most extravagant exercise and manly self discovery, 691 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 2: five day wild Man Excursions, in which groups of one 692 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 2: hundred men take to the woods under the tutelage of 693 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 2: Bly and others to dance around fires, banging on drums. 694 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: I mean, honey to say you have daddy issues and 695 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: move the fuck on. 696 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean again this is there's this there's 697 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 2: this element where he's like, society is fucked because feminists 698 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 2: have tried to breed the violence out of my ninety one. 699 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so you know you have it's like like 700 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: astonishing to me that people are paying seventy five dollars 701 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: and like selling out. I mean that's more like that's 702 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: more than the people were paying for Coachella in the 703 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: early early two thousands. 704 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 3: The crazy thing is like at the core of what 705 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 3: he's saying, it's like most of that sounds like he's 706 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 3: making some good points vallid points about, you know, how 707 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 3: men have evolved in our society. So I'm just like, 708 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 3: where where's the twist, because. 709 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's the You've seen it start to him 710 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 2: and here. So it's because like the valid thing in 711 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 2: that passage just he's like, hey, look, young boys used 712 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 2: to grow up learning alongside both their father and the 713 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 2: other men, you know, in whatever community they were in, 714 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 2: and that taught them what it meant to be a man. 715 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 2: And now because capitalism has kind of taken the man 716 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 2: out of the house. You're supposed to be working forty 717 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 2: sixty eighty hours a week, right, They're not there to ray. 718 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 2: It's just the usually in like the way our society works, 719 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 2: just the woman who's raising the kid. That's what he's saying, then, 720 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 2: that we've cut men off from this process of learning 721 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 2: how to be adult men and like that is actually 722 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,879 Speaker 2: a pretty valid critique, And the problem is that now 723 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 2: he's saying, the problem is that feminists have bred fierceness 724 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 2: out of men instead of being like capitalism separates parents 725 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,280 Speaker 2: from children for huge amounts of time, and that's bad 726 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 2: for kids. And actually, if you look at it, like 727 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 2: you could see in that very scenario of like men 728 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 2: are out of the house working so they're raised are 729 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 2: raised largely by their mothers. Well, that also means an 730 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 2: unfair burdens being placed on the mother. You could see this, 731 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 2: there's a way to have solidarity between the genders here 732 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 2: and be like, oh, yeah, this is all of a 733 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,280 Speaker 2: problem of this system we've built that like separates families 734 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 2: in ways that are really fucked up. Like I identify 735 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 2: with that when I was a kid because we didn't 736 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 2: have much money at all. The only job my dad 737 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 2: could get was in New York City, and there was 738 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 2: a period of more than a year where he was gone. 739 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 2: He was living on a friend's couch, working there, sending 740 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 2: money back to us, and it was it was it's 741 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 2: not just him that made a sacrifice. I made a 742 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,399 Speaker 2: sacrifice as his son, and my mom made a sacrifice 743 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 2: dealing with the entire job of like raising me. Like 744 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 2: there's a thing to identify with their But you can 745 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 2: see the start of the toxicity where he's like, well, 746 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 2: what's the problem is that feminists have tried to make 747 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 2: men less fierce? That's not really the problem, Robert BLI like. 748 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 3: One interesting thing just before you keep going, is I 749 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 3: think in that quote, did he say like justifiably they 750 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,399 Speaker 3: tried to breathe that, yeah, brutality out. 751 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 5: Of men or whatever. 752 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, even there, like on some level, you know, you 753 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,839 Speaker 3: can kind of like, okay, like I kind of see 754 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 3: what the point he's making. You know, men do perpetuate 755 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 3: a lot of the bullshit that happens to women in 756 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 3: our society. 757 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 2: So like he's not nearly he's not anywhere, He's not 758 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 2: on the same planet of toxicity. Is a lot of 759 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 2: like as guys like you know, Andrew Tate, who were 760 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 2: about to talk about, or even like Drian Peterson. But 761 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 2: you can see the root of it right where he is. 762 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:28,760 Speaker 5: It's like the start. 763 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's he's still saying fundamentally, part of the 764 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 2: problem is famous want men to be less aggressive, and like, no, 765 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 2: that's not really part of the problem that you have 766 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 2: adequately identified. Yeah, he wants his listeners. The young boys 767 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 2: are drowning and female energy in the schools. Every young 768 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 2: man has a fantastic need for initiation. That's why we 769 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 2: all became so crazy about our football coach. Such initiations, 770 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,760 Speaker 2: he says, channel wildness into socially approved acts. And again 771 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 2: you see kind of this, like, well, why is the 772 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 2: prob isn't female energy, Like it's not that like it's 773 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 2: that young men. It's that families are being split up 774 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,720 Speaker 2: by this like need to compete and work in ways 775 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 2: that are really unhealthy for kids. But anyway, you can 776 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 2: look at the sea of other self help grifters at 777 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,399 Speaker 2: the time, Wrener Earhard, Aron Hubbard who had come around 778 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 2: at this point, and you could say that BLI is 779 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 2: just kind of another dude and that he's doing a 780 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 2: lot of the same things a lot of these other 781 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 2: self help grifters are doing. But one of the things 782 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 2: that differs him is those guys are mostly pil like 783 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 2: plying nonsense based on bad interpretations of Eastern religion and 784 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 2: psychological abuse. And BLI is kind of he's not insulting 785 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 2: or attacking people, he's not calling them them weak. He's 786 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,240 Speaker 2: he's making some reasonable points about stuff that's toxic about 787 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,800 Speaker 2: our society. And then he's trying to create like mutual 788 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,919 Speaker 2: cathartic experiences with the men in his audience who are 789 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 2: being invited to kind of see the men around them 790 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 2: as brothers in a way that's more intimate than maybe 791 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 2: they had been trained to do previously. So again he's 792 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 2: there's there's something interesting going on here that he isn't 793 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 2: even wholly toxic that I think is kind of worth 794 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 2: acknowledging as we lead to the parts of it that 795 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 2: are a lot more toxic. And it's one of those 796 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 2: things where, like I've spent a lot of time on 797 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,839 Speaker 2: in cell message boards, and they do talk a lot 798 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 2: about this feeling of disconnection with society. So when he 799 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 2: says that like young men are not connected to their communities. 800 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 2: He's making a decent point. He also one of the 801 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 2: points he makes that I thought was interesting is he 802 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,479 Speaker 2: talks about the differences between female sex at and male 803 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 2: sex at. He points out that because of like just 804 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 2: basic biological realities of how periods happen, young girls are 805 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 2: instructed about their bodies in ways that young boys are not, 806 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,760 Speaker 2: and it leads to lifelong discomfort talking about their bodies, 807 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,919 Speaker 2: talking about health problems. And that's probably a valid thing 808 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 2: to point out. 809 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,320 Speaker 1: Sarah definitely goes both ways. 810 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 2: Sure, and again he's it's very he's completely ignorant to well, 811 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 2: I'm sure there's a lot of things actually, especially today, 812 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,280 Speaker 2: that women are not taught about their bodies because of anyway. Again, 813 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 2: these are a lot of two way problems, and he's 814 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 2: focusing just on the male aspect of them. But he's 815 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 2: not inherently wrong about the male aspect of them. He's 816 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 2: just leaving a large part of the equation out and 817 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 2: that's where the toxicity comes in here. 818 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,919 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I'm ready, I'm ready. 819 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 2: Bly has reached his fundamental message. Men and women are 820 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,319 Speaker 2: essentially alien and neither should apologize they're different tribes. He 821 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 2: is saying, my father was an alcoholic, and yet if 822 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 2: you look underneath his weakness, there was something there that 823 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 2: my mother didn't have. She was fine, but she didn't 824 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 2: have it. Three million sperms start out and they find 825 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,799 Speaker 2: themselves immediately in a hostile environment facing an egg approximately 826 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 2: forty thousand times bigger, where the product of the one 827 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,280 Speaker 2: survivor that didn't give up, which is it's really weird 828 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:58,359 Speaker 2: to be like setting up the gender struggle as like 829 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,359 Speaker 2: sperm versus egg, where it's like, sure, well, actually all 830 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,479 Speaker 2: of us are their product of spermnas that's the only 831 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 2: way people happen. 832 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 1: He's got to emphasize on the last product quote there 833 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: you said, we are in the product of the one 834 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: survivor that didn't give up. 835 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, what's the other half of that equation? Is it 836 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,840 Speaker 2: just is it just one little bit of bit of 837 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:23,399 Speaker 2: cum that makes a baby? Why, like, Chris, is there 838 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 2: another part to the baby equation? Yeah? 839 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 1: I just want to be like, honey, did you not 840 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 1: show up for sex said class that day? Did you 841 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: miss that? Lesson? 842 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,280 Speaker 2: The sperm have to murder the eggs so that one 843 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:41,839 Speaker 2: can survive. That is not the way it works. Bli 844 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 2: actually insists that he is not preaching old style machismo, 845 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 2: and he takes pains to tell his audience that, in fact, 846 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 2: male rage's weakness. We're not talking about aggression, he calls out. 847 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,799 Speaker 2: A few of his listeners seemed confused. At the height 848 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,879 Speaker 2: of an hour long discussion of the Gulf War, one 849 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,319 Speaker 2: audience member announces that he seceded from society. I'm not 850 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,759 Speaker 2: paying my tab, I've bought an AK forty seven, and 851 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 2: I'm farting around with ammunition just in case I have 852 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,399 Speaker 2: to back up my decision, he says, softly but firmly. Bly, 853 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 2: and many others have spoken out against the Gulf War, 854 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 2: yet nobody criticizes the AK forty seven fellow. And when 855 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 2: Bli asks the Vietnam Vets to stand to be honored, 856 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,720 Speaker 2: the rum erupts with the applause for about three minutes. 857 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,360 Speaker 2: And you can see there too, the seeds of a 858 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 2: lot that's going on right now, right where yeah, he's like, 859 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 2: we're not talking about men need to be more aggressive. 860 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 2: And then a guy's like, I have dropped out of 861 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:38,960 Speaker 2: society and started buying guns, and everyone's like that's great, cool, Look, 862 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:44,799 Speaker 2: we're not anyway whatever. BLI died last year. He lived a. 863 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 1: Long time, yeah, I would say. 864 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,760 Speaker 2: And you can find people, you know, reappraising his work 865 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:53,719 Speaker 2: and stuff. There's some folks who will say that, like, 866 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 2: his greater talent was for self promotion rather than poetry, 867 00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,440 Speaker 2: and he wasn't as good a poet as people had said. 868 00:44:59,600 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 5: I don't know. 869 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,840 Speaker 2: I'm not a not a poetry guy. I'm not gonna 870 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 2: analyze his poetry in that way. I do think sometimes 871 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 2: because somebody turns out to age into a problematic person, 872 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 2: people are like, well, I guess their work that everybody 873 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,439 Speaker 2: loved in the past sucked, And I think that's kind 874 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 2: of cowardly. Like, nah, people liked his poems, they were influential, 875 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:26,800 Speaker 2: and then he turned into a crank. That's fine, that happens. Like, yeah, anyway, 876 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 2: you know who isn't a crank and who will never 877 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 2: do anything problematic? My favorite filmmaker Roman Oh, oh you 878 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,759 Speaker 2: know what. I googled his name right as I was 879 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 2: saying that, Oh boy, oh dear, well, I'm gonna go 880 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,959 Speaker 2: burn all my DVDs of Rosemary's Baby and y'all check 881 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:52,840 Speaker 2: out these ads. Ah, we're back, really glad. I caught 882 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 2: myself with a little while I thought it was good 883 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,800 Speaker 2: with like the talk about reappraising his works and the 884 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 2: thank you, thank you, I thrive on praise. 885 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:04,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was something different, good for you. 886 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,360 Speaker 2: So Bli died, but his work launched what scholars have 887 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,800 Speaker 2: called the mythopoetic men's movement, and it's. 888 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,000 Speaker 1: Oh my god, yeah, that's amazing. 889 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 2: It is. It is a somewhat uh fucking prickish name 890 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 2: to call it, I guess, but it's what they mean 891 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,480 Speaker 2: by mythopoetic. I should explain, Like what they're saying is 892 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 2: like the argument Bli and the other because there's a 893 00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:33,839 Speaker 2: bunch of other authors in this. The argment they're making 894 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 2: is that our society has stripped mythology out and has 895 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 2: become this like kind of coldly competitive engine for creating 896 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 2: cash value, and that we need in order to make 897 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 2: men healthier, we need to reintroduce like this kind of 898 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 2: mythic understanding of masculinity and of the world that like 899 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:56,840 Speaker 2: that's kind and a lot of it is they're like 900 00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 2: looking at like Native American cultures and so of the 901 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 2: different rituals around masculinity they had and being like, well, 902 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,840 Speaker 2: maybe well and there's actually again, there's a scientific basis 903 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,359 Speaker 2: to a lot of this is cultural appropriation. But like, 904 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,520 Speaker 2: one of the things that's happening in this period is 905 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 2: you've got a lot of Vietnam veterans dealing with PTSD 906 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,200 Speaker 2: in an era before they understand it. And a thing 907 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 2: that occurs during this period is that some of them 908 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,160 Speaker 2: have buddies who are also struggling with PTSD and are 909 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 2: Indigenous Americans and who invite their white and black and 910 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 2: Hispanic battle buddies back to do stuff like sweat lodges 911 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,320 Speaker 2: in order to cope, and other kind of different rituals 912 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,239 Speaker 2: that have existed in some of these indigenous societies to 913 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 2: deal with what happens to men when they go to 914 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,400 Speaker 2: war and they invite their friends back, and that stuff 915 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 2: works better than just getting a job working for an 916 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:52,359 Speaker 2: accounting firm immediately after leaving Vietnam. And so people are 917 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 2: starting to study this and write about it. And one 918 00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 2: of the things that the mythopoetic guys take is this 919 00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,360 Speaker 2: belief that you should basically just kind of like steel 920 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,680 Speaker 2: wholesale from these cultures and dress white people up in 921 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 2: headdresses and give them drums and stuff, as opposed to 922 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 2: being like, oh, well, maybe you know, there's a way 923 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,160 Speaker 2: that isn't that to look at the value that some 924 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:19,279 Speaker 2: of these rituals have in healing people. You know, I'm 925 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,319 Speaker 2: not the person to analyze that completely, but that's part 926 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,799 Speaker 2: of what they're saying here, is that like they're kind 927 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,160 Speaker 2: of recognizing there's something hollow at the center of American 928 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 2: culture that is not hollow in some of these other cultures. 929 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,600 Speaker 2: And instead of being like, maybe there's things that we 930 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,799 Speaker 2: should fundamentally change about American culture there, they're saying, what 931 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,719 Speaker 2: if we dress up like these other people? Right, That's 932 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,480 Speaker 2: essentially what's going on with a lot of the Mythopoetic movement. 933 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,040 Speaker 2: So a big chunk of this and these are some 934 00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:49,840 Speaker 2: of this is bl some of these guys outside of 935 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,959 Speaker 2: bly Is they're they're making they're like putting a bunch 936 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,239 Speaker 2: of like white accountants in sweat lodges that they make 937 00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,839 Speaker 2: the wrong way and lecturing them about you know, young 938 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 2: and Joseph Campbell, or they're like making them dressed like 939 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,080 Speaker 2: cavemen while playing you know, African drums. There's a lot 940 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,600 Speaker 2: of like weird, uncomfortable racism in the Mythopoetic men's movement 941 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,120 Speaker 2: that said, it is less toxic than the men's rights 942 00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,960 Speaker 2: movement that would follow it. Things kind of get increasingly 943 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:22,360 Speaker 2: aggressive and toxic from this point out. But Bli and 944 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:27,319 Speaker 2: the initial mythopoetic influencers were not They saw themselves as therapists, 945 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,239 Speaker 2: and again I don't think they were good at this, 946 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,319 Speaker 2: But they were not political. So this was not a 947 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 2: conservative movement. They were not billing themselves as right wing. 948 00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,840 Speaker 2: They were not really like weighing in on culture war issues, 949 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,480 Speaker 2: in part because the culture war didn't exist in the 950 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,960 Speaker 2: same way then that it does now. And it's interesting 951 00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:49,880 Speaker 2: because Bli expressly says this is an a political movement. 952 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,359 Speaker 2: You might criticize him because he had just written a 953 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,160 Speaker 2: really kind of beautiful essay during the Vietnam War about 954 00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,040 Speaker 2: the cowardness of being a political but whatever. I found 955 00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,680 Speaker 2: an article from the Washington Post in nineteen ninety one 956 00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:05,680 Speaker 2: that talked to a number of men who had been 957 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,760 Speaker 2: most active in the movement, and there's some interesting pieces 958 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,279 Speaker 2: in there. Quote. An affirmation and strength comes from a 959 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,399 Speaker 2: bonding between men that's impossible to put into words, says 960 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 2: ed Honold, the mild mannered federal lawyer and founder of 961 00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,239 Speaker 2: the Men's Council of Greater Washington, one of six such 962 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,560 Speaker 2: local groups salving men's deep inner pain through communal rituals 963 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,040 Speaker 2: of dancing, roaring, hugging, and weeping. The experience was known 964 00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,480 Speaker 2: to men in the past, but has been forgotten. American 965 00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,160 Speaker 2: men face a desperate situation and don't even know it. 966 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,759 Speaker 2: There are large numbers of men wandering lost and some 967 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,080 Speaker 2: personal wasteland of jobs with little meaning, personal lives with 968 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,799 Speaker 2: little passion, and massive confusion about the reasons why. He 969 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,200 Speaker 2: pauses thoughtfully and adds, there's a lot of hurting cowboys 970 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:52,400 Speaker 2: out there. Now, these guys are not cowboys. These guys 971 00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:56,319 Speaker 2: were like middle managers at auto parts stores and shit like. 972 00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:01,520 Speaker 2: They are absolutely not hurting cowboys. And also, actual cowboys 973 00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:03,560 Speaker 2: aren't what this guy thought they were. But he's not 974 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,480 Speaker 2: wrong again and saying that like, the situation of American 975 00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:11,200 Speaker 2: men was pretty unpleasant in the early nineteen nineties. They 976 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,040 Speaker 2: were struggling against a capitalist culture that thrived on the 977 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,640 Speaker 2: obliteration of meaning. However, men, of course, are not the 978 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,040 Speaker 2: only ones suffering from this, nor are they suffering worse 979 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:21,520 Speaker 2: than any other group of Americans. Right, this is just 980 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:25,239 Speaker 2: alienation under capitalism, Part of what he's doing here that 981 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,680 Speaker 2: is noteworthy and becomes a huge problem later on, is 982 00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,839 Speaker 2: he is identifying real problems with the society we live 983 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,840 Speaker 2: in and then cutting men off from the rest of 984 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 2: that society and thus cutting off possibility of solidarity. So 985 00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:42,760 Speaker 2: you can't look at this kind of alienation and loss 986 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,279 Speaker 2: of meaning and be like, wow, men and women and 987 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:50,200 Speaker 2: everybody is being harmed by the meaninglessness this hole at 988 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,520 Speaker 2: the center of our culture. You have to say men 989 00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,239 Speaker 2: are being harmed, and then that invites like, well, there 990 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:57,200 Speaker 2: must be women that are doing it, and it must 991 00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:58,920 Speaker 2: we should be looking at how feminine I rather than 992 00:51:58,920 --> 00:51:59,920 Speaker 2: because he's a door for. 993 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:04,960 Speaker 1: Toks right in It's interesting to see just how far 994 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,759 Speaker 1: John Wayne's like reach impacts the way men think. 995 00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of hurting cowboys. Motherfucker, you are 996 00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:13,680 Speaker 2: not a cowboy. 997 00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:14,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 998 00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:18,000 Speaker 2: And by the way, cowboys were mostly like poor black 999 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,120 Speaker 2: and Hispanic and indigenous men who were being exploited for 1000 00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,319 Speaker 2: their labor. Like, yeah, this is none of what you're 1001 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:28,120 Speaker 2: saying means anything. You are entirely You're you're talking about 1002 00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,560 Speaker 2: the emptiness of culture, and your understanding of history has 1003 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:35,240 Speaker 2: been entirely formed by the movies you watched, right, like anyway, 1004 00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:39,800 Speaker 2: do better do better? Well, some of them will eventually 1005 00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:41,680 Speaker 2: in the future. I think it would be interesting to 1006 00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,400 Speaker 2: try and find out look into all these men's groups 1007 00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:47,440 Speaker 2: in the Washington in the state of Washington in this 1008 00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:49,400 Speaker 2: period of time and see how many of those guys 1009 00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,360 Speaker 2: wound up being elders and the proud boys thirty years later. 1010 00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:56,320 Speaker 2: But that's that's that's a more in depth work for 1011 00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,040 Speaker 2: someone in the future if they want to do it. 1012 00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:00,239 Speaker 3: So. 1013 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,480 Speaker 2: One of the most dangerous aspects of the mythopoetic men's 1014 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:08,200 Speaker 2: movement is that it was not as toxic as its descendants. Again, 1015 00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:12,000 Speaker 2: it identifies real problems, but then it recasts them as 1016 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,160 Speaker 2: things that just men, mostly white men, are suffering from. 1017 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:19,160 Speaker 2: And the answer is like Kischi kind of racist LARPing 1018 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,200 Speaker 2: as member like that, that's basically what they're doing, right, 1019 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,879 Speaker 2: and this, yeah, it's it's it's it causes problems. Later on, 1020 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:29,800 Speaker 2: one of the most ridiculous aspects of the myth of 1021 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,759 Speaker 2: poetic men's movement was the creation of wing Span, the 1022 00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:36,200 Speaker 2: Journal of the Male Spirit. Don't you just want to 1023 00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,319 Speaker 2: sit down? I in with a copy of Wingspan read 1024 00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:40,600 Speaker 2: out quotes to your buds. 1025 00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:43,080 Speaker 5: I start every morning with it. 1026 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,000 Speaker 2: With it. Yeah yeah, just spread spread in your wings 1027 00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,640 Speaker 2: So in the in the pre internet era, this acted 1028 00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:50,800 Speaker 2: as a clearing house for the movement and a central 1029 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,640 Speaker 2: place where influencers could advertise their events. Quote. The last 1030 00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,680 Speaker 2: issue of Wingspan lists dozens of publications and events for 1031 00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,680 Speaker 2: men around the country, including a new Warrior training adventure 1032 00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:04,240 Speaker 2: Weakened in Wisconsin, drumming and dancing for men in Massachusetts, 1033 00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,160 Speaker 2: Brother to Brother in New York, Healing the Father Wound 1034 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,880 Speaker 2: in California, and Afro American Males at Risk in New Jersey. 1035 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:15,000 Speaker 2: A recent grandfather ceremony at the Fairfax Unitarian Men's Council 1036 00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,600 Speaker 2: featured drumming on a five and a half foot thunderheart 1037 00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:21,640 Speaker 2: drum in this area. There are three large councils in Virginia, 1038 00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,680 Speaker 2: one in Gaithersburg and another in Baltimore. The Men's Council 1039 00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,240 Speaker 2: of Greater Washington, which HONLD started in June of nineteen 1040 00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:29,399 Speaker 2: eighty eight with fifty men, is the largest, with two 1041 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,480 Speaker 2: thousand members and fifty newcomers arriving for each monthly meeting. 1042 00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:35,960 Speaker 2: Late one night in January at the Council's meeting in 1043 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:40,040 Speaker 2: the Washington Ethical Society Auditorium on Upper sixteenth Street. Honald 1044 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,480 Speaker 2: shed his Clarkkin image as he leads five hundred men 1045 00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,359 Speaker 2: who are pounding drums and chanting. The sweating windows shape 1046 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,680 Speaker 2: with rhythmic thunder that reverberates up and down the street 1047 00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:50,880 Speaker 2: as they raise Honald, gyrating and clapping high overhead and 1048 00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,960 Speaker 2: parade him about the room. Then group leaders circulate with 1049 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,680 Speaker 2: large feathers and clay pots, wafting the smoke of burning 1050 00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:58,799 Speaker 2: sage into the waiting faces in what is termed a 1051 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,680 Speaker 2: Native American ritual designed to put you in touch with 1052 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:07,560 Speaker 2: generations of male ancestors. So that's a little problematic, a 1053 00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:12,839 Speaker 2: little bit just to scoche. A number of other masculinity 1054 00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,920 Speaker 2: grifters followed. Bli, Robert Moore, and Douglas Gillette wrote the 1055 00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:22,000 Speaker 2: bestseller King, Warrior, Magician Lover, which purported to that's that's 1056 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,760 Speaker 2: a title right there. I want to be a king, Warrior, 1057 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,280 Speaker 2: magician lover. And these are these are like the archetypes 1058 00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:32,319 Speaker 2: of male masculinity. I don't think they're in order, because 1059 00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:34,200 Speaker 2: you probably don't start as a king and end up 1060 00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:35,920 Speaker 2: as a lover, although maybe you do that would be 1061 00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:38,480 Speaker 2: progressive actually saying that you need to you need to 1062 00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,440 Speaker 2: shed your your mastery and your sense of ownership in 1063 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:43,120 Speaker 2: order to become a lover. But I don't think that's 1064 00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:46,920 Speaker 2: the point they're making. Moore is a Youngian analyst and 1065 00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:51,120 Speaker 2: a professor of psychology. Gillette, like doctor Jordan Balthasar Peterson, 1066 00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,080 Speaker 2: was a mythologist. I found a good write up that 1067 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,880 Speaker 2: described the main arguments in their book by Aaron Innes. 1068 00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,120 Speaker 2: The book's second shared premise is that there are universal 1069 00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:01,960 Speaker 2: male archetypes inherent to every male body person that are 1070 00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:04,239 Speaker 2: represented in myth and story around the world, but are 1071 00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:07,600 Speaker 2: suppressed in the dominant culture. The developmental history of every man, 1072 00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:09,840 Speaker 2: says Mora Jellette, is in large part the story of 1073 00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:13,160 Speaker 2: his failure or success at discovering within himself the archetypes 1074 00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:17,120 Speaker 2: of mature masculinity. Following Jungian psychological theory, they claim that 1075 00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,520 Speaker 2: if men are not given room to express these archetypes 1076 00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,080 Speaker 2: in a healthy manner, they will act them out unconsciously 1077 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,640 Speaker 2: in ways that are damaging and violent, either directed outward 1078 00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,160 Speaker 2: at other people as overtly hostile male behavior, or directed 1079 00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:31,040 Speaker 2: inward which SAPs the vitality of the men involved. It's 1080 00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:32,960 Speaker 2: worth noting that the authors of both books, as well 1081 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,040 Speaker 2: as their contemporary followers, seem a hell of a lot 1082 00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:38,040 Speaker 2: more concerned about remedying male acting out that's turned inward 1083 00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:40,800 Speaker 2: and creating male malaise than they are about male violence 1084 00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:43,680 Speaker 2: directed towards others. Take the essay why Men Find It 1085 00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:47,239 Speaker 2: So Hard to Feel by Mythopoetic Workshop leader Darren Austin Hall, 1086 00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:49,279 Speaker 2: who says that women are at an advantage to men 1087 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:53,560 Speaker 2: spiritually and that minstrel cycles mean women are energetically connected 1088 00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,000 Speaker 2: to cycles of the moon, which in turn is energetically 1089 00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,719 Speaker 2: linked to our unconscious. This leads him to the conclusion 1090 00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:01,400 Speaker 2: that the solution to warm angering tyrants in the world 1091 00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,080 Speaker 2: is for women to use touch and the beautiful arts 1092 00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,200 Speaker 2: of seductive love to disarm men, and that this will 1093 00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:13,120 Speaker 2: solve male violence. Oh you girls just gotta touch us right, 1094 00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:21,200 Speaker 2: and we'll stop doing genocides. Oh my god, that's incredible. 1095 00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,400 Speaker 2: Hitler wouldn't have done all that bad stuff if I 1096 00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:27,240 Speaker 2: get well, I mean he was dating his cousin, so 1097 00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:31,040 Speaker 2: I don't really want to continue this joke. But what dating? 1098 00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:35,160 Speaker 2: Dating is the wrong word? You know that story? Sophie 1099 00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:36,760 Speaker 2: we've talked about Hitler and his cousin. 1100 00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,120 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, the one who killed herself. 1101 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:44,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really bad story. Again, bringing up Hitler 1102 00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,960 Speaker 2: and the cousin that he may be murdered is definitely 1103 00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:50,200 Speaker 2: perhaps a good way of pointing out how fucked up 1104 00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:52,280 Speaker 2: it is to say the problem of men's violence is 1105 00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:56,640 Speaker 2: that women don't touch them the right way. It's pretty bad. 1106 00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:59,040 Speaker 2: It also brings to mind I'm thinking about our Liberia 1107 00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:03,160 Speaker 2: episodes and that sex strike that a bunch of women 1108 00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:04,800 Speaker 2: went on to get the warlords to come to the 1109 00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:08,000 Speaker 2: table to negotiate, and how it's like, literally the opposite. 1110 00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:10,320 Speaker 2: It's it's number one, one of the most amazing stories 1111 00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,360 Speaker 2: of activism I've ever heard of, And it's literally the 1112 00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:16,120 Speaker 2: opposite of what these guys are saying. But I don't know, 1113 00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:22,760 Speaker 2: I don't know, this is all so gross, yeah, ikey. So, 1114 00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:26,760 Speaker 2: most regular listeners of the show are broadly familiar with 1115 00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:30,200 Speaker 2: the way men's empowerment gurus and men's rights influencers evolved 1116 00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,400 Speaker 2: over the last twenty years or so, a mix of 1117 00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,120 Speaker 2: right wing culture war politics intersecting with very divorced men. 1118 00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:38,440 Speaker 2: And I think we haven't talked about this yet. But 1119 00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:41,960 Speaker 2: these guys are all extremely divorced, right, there's a there's 1120 00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,880 Speaker 2: a lot of weakened dad energy in the sense. 1121 00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, that's why they're all so bitter. 1122 00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:51,680 Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, that there's just no way anything else is 1123 00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:55,479 Speaker 2: going on here. Elon Musk would have been really, really 1124 00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:57,360 Speaker 2: would have fit in at these Maybe it would have 1125 00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:59,440 Speaker 2: kept him from buying Twitter. You know, I don't want 1126 00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:04,520 Speaker 2: to say it was all toxic. So yeah, again, you 1127 00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:08,439 Speaker 2: have most people listening are kind of familiar with where 1128 00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:12,400 Speaker 2: things descend after the mythopoetic men's movement, which still kind 1129 00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:14,640 Speaker 2: of is around, but more or less Peter's out over 1130 00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,160 Speaker 2: the course of the nineties, and after that point, you've 1131 00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,520 Speaker 2: got a mix of right wing culture war politics that 1132 00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:23,320 Speaker 2: intersects with these very divorced dudes angry over custody, you know, 1133 00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:25,920 Speaker 2: yelling about how men are discriminated against. And then we 1134 00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:29,480 Speaker 2: have pick of course, starting in the early two thousands, 1135 00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,560 Speaker 2: these pickup artists selling the secret to fucking chicks at bars, 1136 00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:36,360 Speaker 2: and this all gets brewed up into this slurry, and 1137 00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:38,640 Speaker 2: you know, you've got the pick up artists intersecting with 1138 00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:41,480 Speaker 2: the men's rights activists intersecting with the right wing culture 1139 00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:45,200 Speaker 2: war politicians intersecting with these literal Nazis, and from that 1140 00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:47,920 Speaker 2: slurry we get gamer Gate and the alt right and 1141 00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,200 Speaker 2: at least a portion of Donald Trump's political success. Right, 1142 00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:59,000 Speaker 2: So that is the story. Well, I mean, this is 1143 00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:01,360 Speaker 2: we haven't on into this on the show, and it 1144 01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:02,880 Speaker 2: was something I was broadly aware of, but I didn't 1145 01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:05,280 Speaker 2: know much about. But I think this is especially leading 1146 01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,320 Speaker 2: into a story about a guy like Andrew Tait, who 1147 01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:11,080 Speaker 2: is the most toxic, arguably calls himself the most like 1148 01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:14,560 Speaker 2: toxic man on the internet, and is certainly an ARCon 1149 01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:18,920 Speaker 2: of male toxicity. I think it kind of behooves us 1150 01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:24,080 Speaker 2: to talk about what led to him because it's interesting. Anyway, 1151 01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:26,560 Speaker 2: this is the end of episode one. Anybody anybody got 1152 01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:28,080 Speaker 2: some thoughts here at the end of things. 1153 01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:31,440 Speaker 3: I mean, I think that was a really great explainer 1154 01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:35,480 Speaker 3: on kind of laying the groundwork for where the ideas 1155 01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,480 Speaker 3: that eventually became Andrew Tait, you know, started and took 1156 01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:42,080 Speaker 3: a foothold, and yeah, after you broke it down, it 1157 01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:44,600 Speaker 3: makes sense and I can see how we got there, 1158 01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:48,280 Speaker 3: you know, But it is interesting that you know, some 1159 01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:51,320 Speaker 3: of the initial original points, like you said, were valid 1160 01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:55,080 Speaker 3: and do kind of highlight some issues in our society 1161 01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,080 Speaker 3: that maybe we should be focusing more on our addressing. 1162 01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:01,440 Speaker 3: But also, as you said, it's not just a men's problem. 1163 01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:04,200 Speaker 3: It's a problem for everyone, and everyone's being affected by it, 1164 01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:06,920 Speaker 3: and we should be finding solidarity in that, and how 1165 01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:10,240 Speaker 3: can we help everybody improve our lives, not just Oh, 1166 01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:12,320 Speaker 3: it's a problem that's only affecting men. 1167 01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,640 Speaker 5: So yeah, the women, you know, those are the yeah problem. 1168 01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:19,200 Speaker 2: It's so interesting to me how many people see, oh, 1169 01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:24,160 Speaker 2: men are being made to like spind their entire young 1170 01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:28,120 Speaker 2: and mature adult lives, like laboring for somebody else's profit 1171 01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:30,919 Speaker 2: in a factory whatever, and as a result, their kids 1172 01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,040 Speaker 2: barely know them, which is a real problem. A lot 1173 01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,320 Speaker 2: of kids raised and like the fifties, sixties, seventies have 1174 01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:40,400 Speaker 2: and translating that as and like seeing you know, their 1175 01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:43,439 Speaker 2: moms struggling to like keep the house going and raise 1176 01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,280 Speaker 2: the kids through all that, and and the kids suffering, 1177 01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:49,240 Speaker 2: and be like, well, this is clearly a men's problem. No, 1178 01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:53,560 Speaker 2: this is this is a cultural problem. Everybody's problem. Is this. 1179 01:01:55,120 --> 01:02:01,360 Speaker 1: Anyway, Sophie, I'm really not looking forward to what's coming next. 1180 01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:03,800 Speaker 2: Oh, Sophie, it's going to be terrible and you're gonna 1181 01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:04,880 Speaker 2: have to play a lot of clips. 1182 01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:10,680 Speaker 1: So I'm so sorry listeners, but I'm sorry, but it 1183 01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:12,640 Speaker 1: is necessary now. 1184 01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:15,360 Speaker 2: You know what, I'm not sorry. I'll never apologize. That's 1185 01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:16,640 Speaker 2: what I learned from Andrew Tait. 1186 01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:18,680 Speaker 1: I think you wrote a really good script though. 1187 01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:20,160 Speaker 2: Thank you, Sophie. 1188 01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:21,080 Speaker 1: Welcome Robert. 1189 01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:25,160 Speaker 2: I love me too. All right, everybody that's going to 1190 01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,360 Speaker 2: do it with us for us today at Behind the Bastards, 1191 01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:32,680 Speaker 2: the podcast that will be recorded again immediately after this, 1192 01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,200 Speaker 2: although I will probably start drinking because it is now 1193 01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:46,320 Speaker 2: quite late, so huzza, huzza. 1194 01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:56,040 Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, no late. We ended the last 1195 01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:58,560 Speaker 1: episode where I was like, wow, you're such a great writer. 1196 01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:00,680 Speaker 1: That was so good. Thank you, Sony, come in and 1197 01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:03,760 Speaker 1: then you do that fucking shit. What well Sylvie. 1198 01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:07,080 Speaker 2: You you may not understand this because of your your 1199 01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:10,760 Speaker 2: your womanliness, but I was embodying the archetype of the 1200 01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:12,000 Speaker 2: magician wild man. 1201 01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:16,840 Speaker 1: I don't you're fired. 1202 01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:27,800 Speaker 2: That's fair, that's fair. Well, I have started drinking, got 1203 01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,240 Speaker 2: a nice glass of port Rue Talisker here, and I 1204 01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:33,280 Speaker 2: want to start this episode by getting a shout out 1205 01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:35,840 Speaker 2: to a friend of the pod, former mayor of the 1206 01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:39,960 Speaker 2: City of Portland, Sam Adams. Now y'all may not know Sam. 1207 01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:43,480 Speaker 2: I think he was briefly on the show Portlandia. But 1208 01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,800 Speaker 2: he was fired from being the mayor because he had 1209 01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:51,760 Speaker 2: a sexual relationship with a teenage staffer, and then got 1210 01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,960 Speaker 2: re hired by current Mayor of Portland, Ted Wheeler, who's 1211 01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:57,440 Speaker 2: a giant piece of shit, Yeah, to be the mayor's 1212 01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:02,800 Speaker 2: body man basically, And then this week Sam announced that 1213 01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:06,080 Speaker 2: he was retiring because he had an iron deficiency, and 1214 01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:08,720 Speaker 2: then Ted Wheeler told everyone, no, he's retiring it because 1215 01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:11,400 Speaker 2: he wouldn't stop threatening and bullying women in the office. 1216 01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:16,680 Speaker 2: Both of you guys suck and it's very funny this happened. Also, 1217 01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:21,040 Speaker 2: I gotta say shout out to Sam Adams. Honestly, going 1218 01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:27,240 Speaker 2: from sexually harassing a teenager to being a bully to 1219 01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:29,560 Speaker 2: adult women, that's a step forward. 1220 01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:37,920 Speaker 1: Okay, disagree, Sophie, You're fine. 1221 01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:43,320 Speaker 2: Look one of the two things listened to sex crime, 1222 01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:47,240 Speaker 2: so that's a real personal growth for former Mayor of 1223 01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:48,480 Speaker 2: Portland Sam Adams. 1224 01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,720 Speaker 1: Anyway, Ted Wheeler, what the fuck is wrong with. 1225 01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:56,720 Speaker 2: Great great hiring? Look, honestly, fuck Sam Adams. He's a 1226 01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:00,320 Speaker 2: piece of shit, but incredible hiring decision from Ted Wheeler. Yeah, 1227 01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:01,960 Speaker 2: let's get the guy in here who had sex with 1228 01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:05,280 Speaker 2: a seventeen year old staffer's let's get him back in 1229 01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:09,960 Speaker 2: city hall. We really need his insights. Great great work too. 1230 01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:14,200 Speaker 1: It really shocked about You know how well liked he 1231 01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:15,480 Speaker 1: is in the city of Portland. 1232 01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:19,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he's not. But you can let him 1233 01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,440 Speaker 2: know how you feel about his decision to hire and 1234 01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:24,760 Speaker 2: then fire Sam Adams at at Ted Wheeler. 1235 01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:27,800 Speaker 1: Oh no, I remember when he got the tear gas 1236 01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:29,040 Speaker 1: thrown on him house. 1237 01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:33,720 Speaker 2: I do remember that. So I started talking about Ted 1238 01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:36,720 Speaker 2: Wheeler and Sam Adams because they're both toxic men. And 1239 01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:40,680 Speaker 2: today we are finally getting into the direct personal story 1240 01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:42,919 Speaker 2: of one of the most toxic men of all time. 1241 01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:49,520 Speaker 2: Emrie Andrew Tait the Third. Oh, that's quite a name. 1242 01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:53,439 Speaker 2: That's quite a name. Now, Emory Andrew Tait the third 1243 01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:57,320 Speaker 2: was born in Washington, d C. On December first, nineteen 1244 01:05:57,400 --> 01:05:59,880 Speaker 2: eighty six. Now that fancy name might lead you to 1245 01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:03,640 Speaker 2: that he came from some like British ash British British 1246 01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:07,720 Speaker 2: ass noble family or some shit that sounds like a 1247 01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:08,640 Speaker 2: duke's name. 1248 01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:12,720 Speaker 5: To me, but very formal it sounds like old money 1249 01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:13,200 Speaker 5: for sure. 1250 01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:17,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he is not. Now, most of the texture 1251 01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:20,120 Speaker 2: that we get on his childhood comes from Andrew himself, 1252 01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:23,680 Speaker 2: which is not ideal because he is a liar. But 1253 01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:25,760 Speaker 2: there's just not a lot of other Again, I haven't 1254 01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:28,400 Speaker 2: found no one's done like a critical biography. There's not 1255 01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:30,960 Speaker 2: like a big, long New Yorker piece that really delves 1256 01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:33,880 Speaker 2: into his backstory. So I kind of had to do 1257 01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:36,160 Speaker 2: that myself to the best extent that I could do. 1258 01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:39,680 Speaker 2: Now I did find one, and this is, honestly, the 1259 01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:42,080 Speaker 2: only texture you get on his childhood that I have 1260 01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:45,600 Speaker 2: come across is from an article he wrote for a 1261 01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:50,120 Speaker 2: website for kickboxing that sells kickboxing gear, and the title 1262 01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:52,720 Speaker 2: of it is the Life of Andrew King Kobra Tait. 1263 01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:56,040 Speaker 2: So again, this is not a credible source, but the 1264 01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:58,600 Speaker 2: way in which he writes about his childhood and what 1265 01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:00,840 Speaker 2: he wants you to believe about it does tell you 1266 01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:02,440 Speaker 2: a lot about the man. So we're still going to 1267 01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:05,240 Speaker 2: be covering it, but do not take this as literal truth. 1268 01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:09,160 Speaker 2: That should be obvious. Here's how he talks about his birth. 1269 01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:12,320 Speaker 2: I was born in Washington, d C. At Walter Reed 1270 01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:15,800 Speaker 2: Army Hospital, early one morning, December first, nineteen eighty six. 1271 01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:18,400 Speaker 2: The doctor wanted to award me a perfect ten on 1272 01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:24,200 Speaker 2: the birth scale, but settled on nine point five. Already, already. 1273 01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:28,680 Speaker 2: That's the saddest thing anyone has ever bragged. That's so pathetic, 1274 01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:30,840 Speaker 2: absolutely heartbreaking. 1275 01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:37,920 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's on somebody's fucking like dating profile 1276 01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:38,520 Speaker 1: for sure. 1277 01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:42,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, two weeks overdue. But I was a nose. I 1278 01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:45,360 Speaker 2: was nose breathing already as the doctor held me upside 1279 01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:47,600 Speaker 2: down by my heels and my right fist was in 1280 01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:50,520 Speaker 2: sight of my mouth as I suckled. The doctor pinched 1281 01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:53,120 Speaker 2: my thigh to get a response, and I growled, knitting 1282 01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:55,160 Speaker 2: my brow and trying to crane my head up to 1283 01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:58,280 Speaker 2: see who had attacked me. The doctor paled, shocked at 1284 01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:00,640 Speaker 2: my defensive powers. I did not cry. 1285 01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:03,120 Speaker 5: Oh my god, I hate this. 1286 01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:09,160 Speaker 2: That's so funny, though, bragging about how tough you were 1287 01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:16,960 Speaker 2: as a baby as a baby, like wow, like believable, 1288 01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:18,680 Speaker 2: was incredible. 1289 01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:21,880 Speaker 1: And I was re reading what you what you just said, 1290 01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:24,439 Speaker 1: and it's I'm gonna. 1291 01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:26,840 Speaker 2: Tell y'all right now, because again, everything I found just 1292 01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:29,680 Speaker 2: kind of glosses over his childhood. Because we don't have 1293 01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:33,439 Speaker 2: a lot of like like detailed, like someone hasn't gone 1294 01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:35,120 Speaker 2: through and like interviewed a shipload of people that he 1295 01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:38,040 Speaker 2: knew was a little kid. And right, that hasn't happened yet. 1296 01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:41,560 Speaker 2: I'm sure it will. And I was thinking, we're just 1297 01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:43,680 Speaker 2: gonna have to brush over his childhood. And then I 1298 01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:46,400 Speaker 2: found this article he wrote about himself on a kickboxing 1299 01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:50,400 Speaker 2: website and it it made my week, made my week. 1300 01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:51,479 Speaker 2: It's so funny. 1301 01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:55,440 Speaker 1: It's about your own birth, like you did fucking anything. 1302 01:08:56,360 --> 01:09:01,600 Speaker 2: So, if you're curious about Andrew's parentage, his mother, Eileen 1303 01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:05,519 Speaker 2: is indeed English as shit, and she's a white lady. 1304 01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:09,280 Speaker 2: She worked as a catering assistant. His father is Imor 1305 01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:13,080 Speaker 2: Tate Junior and Emory what was Emory Tate junior? Emory 1306 01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:16,040 Speaker 2: Tate Junior was a black American man and a Chicago 1307 01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:18,479 Speaker 2: chess prodigy. Actually, up until a year or two ago, 1308 01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:22,880 Speaker 2: Emory Tait was much more famous than Andrew Tait. We 1309 01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:27,080 Speaker 2: actually had in the our work chat. Mia was shocked 1310 01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:31,280 Speaker 2: to learn that Andrew Tait was Imrie Tate's son. I 1311 01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:32,960 Speaker 2: had not heard of this guy. But I don't care 1312 01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:37,400 Speaker 2: for chess or for yeah chess. Yeah. The Washington Post 1313 01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:41,479 Speaker 2: describes Emory Tate Junior as a trailblazer for black chess players. 1314 01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:44,080 Speaker 2: He was like one of the first. I don't know, 1315 01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:46,680 Speaker 2: he may have been like the first, like super famous, 1316 01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:52,120 Speaker 2: really well known, like black professional chess players. Again, I 1317 01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:54,760 Speaker 2: don't understand chess. I don't understand why you would play 1318 01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:56,960 Speaker 2: a war game that doesn't include orcs. But a lot 1319 01:09:57,040 --> 01:09:58,920 Speaker 2: of people who love chess say that he was one 1320 01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:01,559 Speaker 2: of the most fun players watch. I did read a 1321 01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:04,760 Speaker 2: lot of like writing like fans and like reddit and 1322 01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:07,280 Speaker 2: stuff talking about Emory Tate, and one thing they all 1323 01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:09,839 Speaker 2: seem to agree on is he was just super entertaining 1324 01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:10,559 Speaker 2: to watch play. 1325 01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:14,000 Speaker 1: Yes, you, why does when you type in Emory Tate 1326 01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:17,400 Speaker 1: into Google, why does the first suggested thing come up 1327 01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:23,640 Speaker 1: as CIA? What I typed Emory Tate into Google and 1328 01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:29,120 Speaker 1: the first thing that autofields is CIA? Hmm, oh it 1329 01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:30,480 Speaker 1: was in the CIA? 1330 01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:34,599 Speaker 2: Well, Andrew says that he was in the CIA. 1331 01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:35,599 Speaker 1: Is that what's happening? 1332 01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:38,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was. So he was in the Air Force 1333 01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:43,280 Speaker 2: as a sergeant and he served as a linguished linguist. 1334 01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:47,760 Speaker 2: There's not actually hard evidence that he was in the 1335 01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:51,960 Speaker 2: CIA that I have seen, Like this is based on again, 1336 01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:56,040 Speaker 2: Andrew is kind of when we're about to get into this, 1337 01:10:56,120 --> 01:11:00,280 Speaker 2: he's really plumping his dad's reputation to make him like 1338 01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:02,240 Speaker 2: not just a chess guy, but a bad ass. 1339 01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:05,040 Speaker 1: So may or may not beat somebody. 1340 01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:08,439 Speaker 2: I have not seen any independent confirmation that he worked 1341 01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:12,160 Speaker 2: in the CIA. Maybe he did a lot of guys 1342 01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:15,439 Speaker 2: in that period who like did some sort of like 1343 01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:17,720 Speaker 2: weird work where they would have just been listed as 1344 01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:20,439 Speaker 2: a state department employee. So it's not impossible. But I 1345 01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:24,160 Speaker 2: have not come across confirmation that he was in the CIA. 1346 01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:28,400 Speaker 2: So the Washington Post in most sources who write about 1347 01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,200 Speaker 2: Andrew's dad will call him a grand master at chess. 1348 01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:33,519 Speaker 2: This is not entirely true he was. I mean, this 1349 01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:36,200 Speaker 2: is not true. He was an international master, which is 1350 01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:38,439 Speaker 2: a lesser rank. He never quite made it to grand master. 1351 01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:41,920 Speaker 2: I found again chess discussions online by nerds about chess 1352 01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:43,439 Speaker 2: who will say that he didn't make it to grand 1353 01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:46,760 Speaker 2: master mainly because he wasn't able to. He wasn't willing 1354 01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:48,479 Speaker 2: to do like certain things that you have to do 1355 01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:50,439 Speaker 2: to do that. But he was. He had a really 1356 01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:53,559 Speaker 2: good record. He regularly beat grand masters. Some people say 1357 01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:55,920 Speaker 2: he was as good as Bobby Fisher. Again, I have 1358 01:11:56,040 --> 01:11:58,160 Speaker 2: no way to evaluate any of this. 1359 01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:02,200 Speaker 1: Robert taking a big anti chest chess approach here. 1360 01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:06,760 Speaker 2: Again, there's no battle tanks in chess. There's no titans 1361 01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:11,519 Speaker 2: with chainsaw hands. The ultimate game of strategy is still 1362 01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:15,320 Speaker 2: Warhammer forty thousand. I think we can all agree on that. Yes, 1363 01:12:15,439 --> 01:12:19,400 Speaker 2: of course it's been true for generations. But anyway, Emory 1364 01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:23,040 Speaker 2: Tate great at chess. A chess historian wrote a book 1365 01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:25,200 Speaker 2: about him which gives us some idea as to where 1366 01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:27,919 Speaker 2: Andrew Tate got his sense of style and personal branding. 1367 01:12:28,360 --> 01:12:32,120 Speaker 2: The title was triple xclam with three explaanation points, The 1368 01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:36,360 Speaker 2: Life and Games of Emory Tate, Chess Warrior, which is 1369 01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:41,200 Speaker 2: kind of fun. I think he literally died at the 1370 01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:43,640 Speaker 2: table in twenty fifteen playing a game of chess. Like 1371 01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:47,320 Speaker 2: this man, This motherfucker loved chess. He wears a white 1372 01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:49,800 Speaker 2: fedora with a gold band on the cover, which also 1373 01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:51,840 Speaker 2: gives you a little bit of insight into where Andrew 1374 01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:55,839 Speaker 2: Tate gets some of his taste in style. And Andrew 1375 01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:59,280 Speaker 2: idolizes his father, and he does it particularly. I'm not 1376 01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:01,680 Speaker 2: going to pretend to know the man's emotional state, but 1377 01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:05,240 Speaker 2: in his public writing, he particularly celebrates his dad. In 1378 01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:09,200 Speaker 2: that Kickboxing website article twenty twenty two, Andrew Tait noted 1379 01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:13,120 Speaker 2: this about the male side of his family background. My grandfather, 1380 01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:16,080 Speaker 2: Imrie A. Tait Esquire, fought in World War Two before 1381 01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:19,240 Speaker 2: becoming a lawyer in Chicago during racially charged times as 1382 01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:21,280 Speaker 2: a black man. This shaped his worldview, and he was 1383 01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:23,960 Speaker 2: very strict, very hard. Indeed, as a boy he pushed 1384 01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:26,200 Speaker 2: a plow with meal through the hard clay dirt of Georgia. 1385 01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:28,479 Speaker 2: Forced to work on the farm at age twelve, he 1386 01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:31,160 Speaker 2: pushed a plow that only grown men normally handled. Then 1387 01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:33,200 Speaker 2: he ran away, never to return to the farm. He 1388 01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:35,320 Speaker 2: did some bare knuckled fist fights as young man, and 1389 01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:38,519 Speaker 2: distinguish himself hand to hand during the war years. And 1390 01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:41,679 Speaker 2: again I'm sure parts of that are true. Everything about 1391 01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:43,800 Speaker 2: his dad and his grandpa always veers into how good 1392 01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:45,600 Speaker 2: they were at hand to hand combat, and there is 1393 01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:49,479 Speaker 2: no evidence of this. Like the stuff about working on 1394 01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:53,240 Speaker 2: a farm, Yeah, that seems plausible. The stuff about how 1395 01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:56,360 Speaker 2: we fought the Nazis hand to hand, I don't know, maybe, 1396 01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:58,280 Speaker 2: but that actually doesn't happen often. 1397 01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:00,920 Speaker 3: That just gives me, like my dad can beat up 1398 01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:03,000 Speaker 3: your dad vibes like yeah, it sounds like something like 1399 01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:04,080 Speaker 3: a kid would say. 1400 01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:07,160 Speaker 1: Yeah about his own birth. 1401 01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:09,760 Speaker 2: And man, it's like, you don't have to lie about 1402 01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:12,720 Speaker 2: him fist fighting Nazis. It's okay if he just shot them. 1403 01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:15,160 Speaker 2: A lot of dudes did and that was rat Like, 1404 01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:18,880 Speaker 2: he doesn't have to be great at punching just because 1405 01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:20,920 Speaker 2: you grew up to punch people for a living. That's 1406 01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:24,760 Speaker 2: kind of a weird thing to focus on, Andrew, but 1407 01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:27,400 Speaker 2: he loves talking about how good his dad and grandpa 1408 01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:31,320 Speaker 2: were at fighting. Quote his son. My dad, Emrie A. 1409 01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:34,120 Speaker 2: Tait Junior, was a young athlete, learning wrestling in school 1410 01:14:34,160 --> 01:14:38,639 Speaker 2: and developing the early forms of tate shin kai strikes 1411 01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:41,200 Speaker 2: as a youth, which I guess is his own martial 1412 01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:44,800 Speaker 2: arts thing. His job in the military for eleven years 1413 01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:46,920 Speaker 2: took him on many adventures and little is known for 1414 01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:49,680 Speaker 2: sure except that my dad never loses. He is my 1415 01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:52,760 Speaker 2: role model in many ways, even as I write poetry 1416 01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:56,880 Speaker 2: like he does. So I mean, also, I think his 1417 01:14:57,000 --> 01:14:59,400 Speaker 2: dad would have been in the military, let me double 1418 01:14:59,479 --> 01:15:06,720 Speaker 2: check here, Yeah, during Vietnam, which would mean that he did, 1419 01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:14,880 Speaker 2: in fact lose. So sorry, Andrew, but I don't want 1420 01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:18,280 Speaker 2: to be mean to Emory Tait because well, this is 1421 01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:22,160 Speaker 2: a little bit his fault. So yeah. The closest thing 1422 01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:25,880 Speaker 2: that Andrew has written or said that comes close to 1423 01:15:26,040 --> 01:15:29,160 Speaker 2: being emotionally impactful at all is when he writes about 1424 01:15:29,160 --> 01:15:31,640 Speaker 2: his father. I will give him that he writes with 1425 01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:36,559 Speaker 2: like some amount of actual sincerity about his feelings towards 1426 01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:38,479 Speaker 2: his dad, And I'm going to give you an example 1427 01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:41,040 Speaker 2: of that now. I never learned to cry for attention. 1428 01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:43,960 Speaker 2: I only used grunts to indicate hunger or discomfort, but 1429 01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:46,679 Speaker 2: mostly I was silent. I had a large new crib, 1430 01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:48,519 Speaker 2: but most every night I spent a sleep on my 1431 01:15:48,600 --> 01:15:51,360 Speaker 2: dad's chest. He would place me there and sleep still, 1432 01:15:51,479 --> 01:15:53,479 Speaker 2: never moving in the night, and our heart beats were 1433 01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:54,400 Speaker 2: and are as one. 1434 01:15:55,080 --> 01:15:59,320 Speaker 1: I just think a baby like a yeah. 1435 01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:06,320 Speaker 2: Just too angry to sit cry now. Bits like this 1436 01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:09,840 Speaker 2: do contrast with passages where Andrew will relate stories about 1437 01:16:09,880 --> 01:16:13,360 Speaker 2: his dad that sound kind of abusive. Quote. I learned 1438 01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:16,320 Speaker 2: to defend myself soon after I could walk, long before 1439 01:16:16,360 --> 01:16:19,000 Speaker 2: my first punch into a pillow, I learned to balance, 1440 01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:21,639 Speaker 2: had to step backward after being pushed gently in the chest. 1441 01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:23,800 Speaker 2: Dad made a game of it, a game, which ended 1442 01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:26,040 Speaker 2: with a savage shove across a living room, sending me 1443 01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:29,040 Speaker 2: into a dramatic backpedal. I stopped myself with my head 1444 01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:31,559 Speaker 2: one inch from cracking into the far wall. That was 1445 01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:34,640 Speaker 2: the final test. Kind of sounds like your dad was 1446 01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:36,960 Speaker 2: just shoving you because he was pissed and drew it. 1447 01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:38,840 Speaker 1: Kind of sounds not great, bro. 1448 01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:41,000 Speaker 2: Do you need to talk about this, man? 1449 01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:46,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, no talking, just a yeah. 1450 01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:48,759 Speaker 5: Just angry, just shoving. 1451 01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:52,000 Speaker 2: I mean, look, if I was going to raise a child, 1452 01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:54,800 Speaker 2: I'd be lying if I said that the shoving method 1453 01:16:54,880 --> 01:16:56,920 Speaker 2: didn't hold some appeal, because I do a lot of 1454 01:16:56,960 --> 01:16:59,600 Speaker 2: other things by shoving. It's how I move my furniture, 1455 01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:03,160 Speaker 2: it's how I record podcasts. I'm shoving a walking desk 1456 01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:06,519 Speaker 2: around the room right now. We actually Danil spends like 1457 01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:09,040 Speaker 2: thirteen hours a week editing that out before we can 1458 01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:12,960 Speaker 2: even get the audio off off to Chris, that's most 1459 01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:17,080 Speaker 2: of his job. It's it's really it's a good part 1460 01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:17,559 Speaker 2: of our work. 1461 01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:19,519 Speaker 1: And remind me to tell you about the time when 1462 01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:22,240 Speaker 1: Robert got a foot massager and he refused to not 1463 01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:30,320 Speaker 1: use it while recording, and it would go directly into 1464 01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:34,320 Speaker 1: the mic, and like there's no, there's no hazard. Pay 1465 01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:41,360 Speaker 1: that's enough, truly, don't take it out. I'm sorry, And 1466 01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:43,040 Speaker 1: that was my fault for bringing it up. 1467 01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:46,040 Speaker 2: That was your fault for bringing it up, but more 1468 01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:52,360 Speaker 2: importantly not my fault, because nothing is speaking of toxic masculinity. 1469 01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:53,720 Speaker 2: Let's get back to Andrew Tate. 1470 01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:54,519 Speaker 1: Cool. 1471 01:17:55,240 --> 01:17:58,760 Speaker 2: So, Andrew was raised initially in the DC area and 1472 01:17:58,800 --> 01:18:01,680 Speaker 2: then Indiana, and he seemed to want to follow in 1473 01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,599 Speaker 2: his father's footsteps. He started playing chess at age three, 1474 01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:07,920 Speaker 2: he started competing at five, and he eventually competed in 1475 01:18:07,960 --> 01:18:10,920 Speaker 2: adult tournaments while still a child. And this is where 1476 01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:13,880 Speaker 2: we get the very first news article on Andrew Tate, 1477 01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:16,719 Speaker 2: who at that point was referred to as Emerie A Tait. 1478 01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:19,280 Speaker 2: It is a local news piece, and this is the 1479 01:18:19,320 --> 01:18:22,800 Speaker 2: first like objective ish piece of journalism that it's not 1480 01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:25,639 Speaker 2: just like him writing about his background. And it's really 1481 01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:29,040 Speaker 2: the only insight we get into his childhood that doesn't 1482 01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:33,639 Speaker 2: come directly from a Tate. It's again a local news piece. 1483 01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:36,200 Speaker 2: The news in his town, which is like South Bend, 1484 01:18:36,760 --> 01:18:39,320 Speaker 2: was talking about the release there was a movie coming 1485 01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:41,880 Speaker 2: out about Bobby Fisher, who I guess was good at chess, 1486 01:18:42,960 --> 01:18:44,840 Speaker 2: and so they were writing about that, and they wanted 1487 01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:48,280 Speaker 2: a human interest piece, so they talked about young Andrew Tate, 1488 01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:50,920 Speaker 2: who was six when they wrote this article. He had 1489 01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:53,759 Speaker 2: started a chess club in South Bend with some other kids, 1490 01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:56,040 Speaker 2: and he had taught them chess because he wanted people 1491 01:18:56,040 --> 01:18:59,040 Speaker 2: to play against. It includes the article a couple of 1492 01:18:59,080 --> 01:19:02,439 Speaker 2: quotes that are interesting. Every kid wants to be like 1493 01:19:02,479 --> 01:19:05,639 Speaker 2: his dad, the elder Tate said, but father had recently 1494 01:19:05,680 --> 01:19:09,599 Speaker 2: limited son's playing time, encouraging other activities. I don't think 1495 01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:11,479 Speaker 2: that a kid his age should spend so much time 1496 01:19:11,479 --> 01:19:13,599 Speaker 2: playing chess. As a parent, I'd like to see him 1497 01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:16,000 Speaker 2: become a top level player, but I realized there's so 1498 01:19:16,080 --> 01:19:18,479 Speaker 2: much more to life than just chess. He learned how 1499 01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:20,679 Speaker 2: to swim this summer, and he plays with his friends 1500 01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:23,679 Speaker 2: and stuff like that. Andrew, however, says he plays because 1501 01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:26,240 Speaker 2: he's bored all the time. Most of the time, I 1502 01:19:26,240 --> 01:19:28,000 Speaker 2: am bored, and that's the only thing I want to 1503 01:19:28,040 --> 01:19:33,479 Speaker 2: do most So Yeah, interesting, there's some insight into the 1504 01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:38,439 Speaker 2: actual kid there. That is a response I understand from 1505 01:19:38,479 --> 01:19:40,320 Speaker 2: a kid like I am bored all the time. This 1506 01:19:40,439 --> 01:19:43,920 Speaker 2: is the only thing that I like. It Also, you know, 1507 01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:47,479 Speaker 2: gives you a little bit of a look into like 1508 01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:49,920 Speaker 2: there's for whatever reason, one of the things I take 1509 01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:52,760 Speaker 2: with in this article is that Imory Tait didn't want 1510 01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:56,280 Speaker 2: his son to follow him as a chess guy. It 1511 01:19:56,360 --> 01:19:59,840 Speaker 2: might have been some insecurity about not wanting his kid 1512 01:19:59,880 --> 01:20:01,680 Speaker 2: to be better than him, or it may have just 1513 01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:04,960 Speaker 2: been understandably like, you know, I never made a lot 1514 01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:06,720 Speaker 2: of money playing chess. I want you to do something 1515 01:20:06,760 --> 01:20:08,479 Speaker 2: else with your life. I don't want you to like 1516 01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:10,120 Speaker 2: be locked into this thing. 1517 01:20:10,560 --> 01:20:10,760 Speaker 1: I know. 1518 01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:14,880 Speaker 2: There's some interesting questions that answers or asks. The author 1519 01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:17,400 Speaker 2: of this article notes that Andrew had just competed in 1520 01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:20,040 Speaker 2: his first adult chess tournament where he had and again 1521 01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:23,960 Speaker 2: Andrews later on, when he starts putting out propaganda trying 1522 01:20:23,960 --> 01:20:25,760 Speaker 2: to make himself do a badass, will point out that 1523 01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:28,240 Speaker 2: like at age six, he was playing in adult chess tournaments. 1524 01:20:28,560 --> 01:20:31,240 Speaker 2: He did lose three out of five games, and his 1525 01:20:31,360 --> 01:20:34,200 Speaker 2: dad eventually had to pull him out of the tournament because, quote, 1526 01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:36,719 Speaker 2: he got very upset because he thought he was failing. 1527 01:20:37,040 --> 01:20:39,759 Speaker 2: So Emory withdrew his son from the game to quote 1528 01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:42,240 Speaker 2: save him from crying in front of all those people. 1529 01:20:43,080 --> 01:20:46,880 Speaker 2: And we're not keyed into what precisely happened there? 1530 01:20:46,960 --> 01:20:49,640 Speaker 1: Whoa, whoa, whoa. I thought he didn't cry. Why are 1531 01:20:49,640 --> 01:20:50,519 Speaker 1: we worried about that? 1532 01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:53,960 Speaker 2: It sure seems like his dad said he did. Yeah, whoa, 1533 01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:58,400 Speaker 2: whoa whoa fact check and again, Yeah, I'm gonna guess 1534 01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:00,800 Speaker 2: one of two things happened there. Either Andrew was just 1535 01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:02,920 Speaker 2: throwing a fit because he was losing, and his dad 1536 01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:04,639 Speaker 2: was like, well, you can't be at a chess tournament 1537 01:21:04,640 --> 01:21:06,559 Speaker 2: if you're gonna throw a fit when you lose. Or 1538 01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:09,720 Speaker 2: Andrew was doing okay and wanted to keep playing, and 1539 01:21:09,800 --> 01:21:12,160 Speaker 2: his dad was angry that he was losing and didn't 1540 01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:16,880 Speaker 2: want him to keep, like risk losing again, even though 1541 01:21:17,080 --> 01:21:19,160 Speaker 2: three to two is not a bad record for a six. 1542 01:21:19,080 --> 01:21:21,320 Speaker 5: Year old player six playing against a. 1543 01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:24,439 Speaker 2: Fither way, we don't know which of those is the case. 1544 01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:30,120 Speaker 2: Either possibility is interesting to me. Andrew's parents had another boy, Tristan, 1545 01:21:30,240 --> 01:21:32,639 Speaker 2: two years after Andrew was born, and the two brothers 1546 01:21:32,720 --> 01:21:35,800 Speaker 2: have been inseparable their whole lives. They played chess together, 1547 01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:39,519 Speaker 2: but Tristan never competed. They would later kickbox together, but 1548 01:21:39,560 --> 01:21:42,880 Speaker 2: Tristan never competed. He's like always there, but he also 1549 01:21:43,200 --> 01:21:45,880 Speaker 2: doesn't seem to get to live a full life because 1550 01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:49,439 Speaker 2: he exists purely in his brother's shadow, as like an 1551 01:21:49,439 --> 01:21:52,360 Speaker 2: agent of his greatness. It's kind of a weird relationship 1552 01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:56,599 Speaker 2: for Tristan, but I don't think he's self aware enough 1553 01:21:56,600 --> 01:21:59,439 Speaker 2: to understand that it's weird. One photo in the news 1554 01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:02,320 Speaker 2: in that new article shows six year old Andrew focused 1555 01:22:02,360 --> 01:22:04,559 Speaker 2: in the picture frame, face taking up a third of 1556 01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:08,200 Speaker 2: the frame playing chess. Well, just Tristan's hand is visible 1557 01:22:08,200 --> 01:22:10,599 Speaker 2: in the right third, and as the brothers grew up, 1558 01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:14,160 Speaker 2: Andrew would consistently stay in focus. Well, Tristan would always 1559 01:22:14,160 --> 01:22:15,479 Speaker 2: just sort of be off to the side. 1560 01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:19,080 Speaker 1: Is that and that's true to this day, right to 1561 01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:19,880 Speaker 1: this day. 1562 01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:21,800 Speaker 2: I have I don't have it. In the script we 1563 01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:23,720 Speaker 2: could play it. There's a very funny video of his 1564 01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:26,599 Speaker 2: brother like telling him to go out to like film 1565 01:22:26,640 --> 01:22:29,080 Speaker 2: their cars for this video they're doing about how nice 1566 01:22:29,080 --> 01:22:31,280 Speaker 2: their life is. And then when his brother goes out, 1567 01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:34,280 Speaker 2: Andrew cuts the feed just to be like, Aha, fuck you, 1568 01:22:34,320 --> 01:22:36,040 Speaker 2: this is my show. I don't have to like let 1569 01:22:36,040 --> 01:22:38,080 Speaker 2: you do anything if I don't want to. And it's 1570 01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:40,479 Speaker 2: like weirdly abusive because they're both men who were in 1571 01:22:40,520 --> 01:22:44,720 Speaker 2: their thirties, like Tristan, you don't have to take that 1572 01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:50,799 Speaker 2: like things got harder for them after South Bend because 1573 01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:53,320 Speaker 2: they their mom and dad. It's not a good marriage, 1574 01:22:53,640 --> 01:22:57,479 Speaker 2: and they divorce. I have found very little detail about 1575 01:22:57,479 --> 01:23:00,240 Speaker 2: why that divorce happened. We can infer the that it 1576 01:23:00,280 --> 01:23:02,840 Speaker 2: was an extremely painful time for Andrew, and this is 1577 01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:05,759 Speaker 2: all he's willing to write about it. Dad was working 1578 01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:09,080 Speaker 2: minimum wage jobs overtime since his military career had been ended. 1579 01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:11,479 Speaker 2: Both mom and dad worked so that we could survive. 1580 01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:13,640 Speaker 2: Things became so hard that we decided to go to 1581 01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:17,599 Speaker 2: England and try a life there only minus dad. And 1582 01:23:18,920 --> 01:23:21,960 Speaker 2: he's not willing to write like, you know, the marriage 1583 01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:25,559 Speaker 2: didn't work out or and again we don't know why. 1584 01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:29,320 Speaker 2: I'm going to avoid like theorizing what might have happened there, 1585 01:23:29,439 --> 01:23:32,240 Speaker 2: but this is clearly he idolizes his dad and he's 1586 01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:37,360 Speaker 2: taken away from him forever basically, and obviously Mom might 1587 01:23:37,400 --> 01:23:38,800 Speaker 2: have had a perfectly good reason for doing that. I'm 1588 01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:41,360 Speaker 2: not trying to be critical. We just actually don't really know. 1589 01:23:42,439 --> 01:23:45,120 Speaker 2: But this is definitely like the fact that he's not 1590 01:23:45,160 --> 01:23:48,080 Speaker 2: willing to even acknowledge the basics of what happened kind 1591 01:23:48,080 --> 01:23:53,040 Speaker 2: of suggests This leaves a pretty profound impact on young Andrew, 1592 01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:57,719 Speaker 2: so by age eleven, he was, in his words, man 1593 01:23:57,760 --> 01:24:00,799 Speaker 2: of the house, looking after his younger brother and now sister. 1594 01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:03,719 Speaker 2: The town in England they live in was called Luton 1595 01:24:03,880 --> 01:24:05,840 Speaker 2: and it is still. I think it's usually pronounced by 1596 01:24:05,880 --> 01:24:09,280 Speaker 2: English people Luton. But you know, you know how they are. 1597 01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:11,799 Speaker 3: I didn't think we would get an accent this episode, 1598 01:24:11,920 --> 01:24:13,639 Speaker 3: but I'm glad we did. 1599 01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:16,880 Speaker 2: I'm from Luton. That's how they sound. 1600 01:24:17,840 --> 01:24:20,599 Speaker 1: Robert, you know how much that upsets. 1601 01:24:20,680 --> 01:24:23,080 Speaker 2: When I do my When I do my accent, should 1602 01:24:23,080 --> 01:24:25,280 Speaker 2: I do my Boston accent to get him back on board? 1603 01:24:25,400 --> 01:24:27,519 Speaker 1: Yeah? Your Boston accents really joy. 1604 01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:31,520 Speaker 2: Even from Boston and Oi looi caffy and shieldah. 1605 01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:39,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, sounds like Ben Affleck an Australian person underwater being strangled. 1606 01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:43,240 Speaker 2: Just Western Australia, Sophie. 1607 01:24:44,880 --> 01:24:47,000 Speaker 1: Anyways, Robert, it's time for an ad break. 1608 01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:50,600 Speaker 2: It is time for an ad break. So good to 1609 01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:56,719 Speaker 2: Denkin Donuts and have you a caffe Boston. It's so bad, 1610 01:24:57,280 --> 01:24:58,880 Speaker 2: it's pretty good. 1611 01:24:57,880 --> 01:25:02,680 Speaker 3: It's honestly, it's so bad that it's impressive, Like thank you. 1612 01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:04,240 Speaker 3: I feel like that takes a lot of skill and 1613 01:25:04,280 --> 01:25:06,000 Speaker 3: control to be that bad again. 1614 01:25:06,040 --> 01:25:09,599 Speaker 2: I'll take any kind of praise. I don't care bad attention, 1615 01:25:09,720 --> 01:25:12,080 Speaker 2: good attention, It's all the same to me. Welcome to 1616 01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:28,240 Speaker 2: our podcast about toxic masculinity. H and we're back. Solwton Is. 1617 01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:31,400 Speaker 2: It's not an easy place to grow up. It is 1618 01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:34,120 Speaker 2: in fact close to, if not the very hardest place 1619 01:25:34,560 --> 01:25:37,280 Speaker 2: to grow up in England. It is one of the 1620 01:25:37,280 --> 01:25:40,280 Speaker 2: poorest places in the country. It has been repeatedly voted 1621 01:25:40,320 --> 01:25:43,160 Speaker 2: the worst place to live in England. I actually found 1622 01:25:43,160 --> 01:25:45,320 Speaker 2: a poll from like seven days before I write this 1623 01:25:45,400 --> 01:25:48,880 Speaker 2: script from Bedfordshire Live that voted at the worst place 1624 01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:52,719 Speaker 2: to live in England. It is a tough town. Andrew 1625 01:25:52,720 --> 01:25:55,680 Speaker 2: and his family have basically no money. They live in 1626 01:25:55,720 --> 01:25:59,160 Speaker 2: public housing and they are just barely getting by. We 1627 01:25:59,240 --> 01:26:02,080 Speaker 2: know this for certain, like this is a confirmed fact 1628 01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:08,320 Speaker 2: about his upbringing. Now Andrew again definitely acknowledges that they 1629 01:26:08,320 --> 01:26:10,080 Speaker 2: were poor. This is actually an important part of his 1630 01:26:10,120 --> 01:26:13,240 Speaker 2: own self mythology. But he also makes some claims that 1631 01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:15,639 Speaker 2: we do not know for sure or true. He claims 1632 01:26:15,640 --> 01:26:17,880 Speaker 2: he got a job as soon as I was old enough, 1633 01:26:17,920 --> 01:26:21,960 Speaker 2: although he does not say when that was quote as 1634 01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:23,599 Speaker 2: soon as I was old enough, I got a job 1635 01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:26,280 Speaker 2: moving eighty pound boxes of frozen fish into the market 1636 01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:28,960 Speaker 2: at five am, and a full day of school weekends 1637 01:26:28,960 --> 01:26:31,040 Speaker 2: found me at the market stall, where it perfected my 1638 01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:35,479 Speaker 2: knife skills, flawlessly fileting fish at blinding speeds. After some time, 1639 01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:37,599 Speaker 2: I never cut my hands at all, not even a nick. 1640 01:26:37,720 --> 01:26:45,920 Speaker 2: I learned to play drums. And yeah, that's interesting. I'm 1641 01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:48,040 Speaker 2: sure some Again, I'm sure pieces of all of this 1642 01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:51,680 Speaker 2: are true. I don't know about his knife skills or 1643 01:26:51,680 --> 01:26:54,960 Speaker 2: the blinding speed, but I'm sure pieces of this are true. Now, 1644 01:26:55,160 --> 01:26:58,120 Speaker 2: trist Or Andrew interestingly says that the only one of 1645 01:26:58,120 --> 01:26:59,840 Speaker 2: them who got into a real world fight when they 1646 01:26:59,840 --> 01:27:02,839 Speaker 2: were kids was his brother Tristan. Some kid was bullying 1647 01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:05,240 Speaker 2: him and he beat him up. I don't know if 1648 01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:07,160 Speaker 2: that story is true or not, but it is worth 1649 01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:09,840 Speaker 2: noting that Andrew claims in this article, I have never 1650 01:27:09,920 --> 01:27:12,920 Speaker 2: struck a person in anger. Now we know that's not true, 1651 01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:18,360 Speaker 2: because he has beaten at least what like Yeah, we 1652 01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:21,080 Speaker 2: know that's not true. We will talk about that later. 1653 01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:22,920 Speaker 2: But this is the claim that he is making in 1654 01:27:22,960 --> 01:27:25,280 Speaker 2: this thing that he writes in like twenty twenty two, 1655 01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:28,960 Speaker 2: when he was a young adult, he was introduced to 1656 01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:31,840 Speaker 2: a kickboxing trainer and he started training, as did his 1657 01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:34,720 Speaker 2: brothers soon after. By two thousand and eight, he was 1658 01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:39,280 Speaker 2: the seventh highest ranked heavyweight kickboxer in Britain. A year later, 1659 01:27:39,320 --> 01:27:42,240 Speaker 2: he won his first championship and became the number one 1660 01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:46,320 Speaker 2: ranked kickboxer in Europe for his division. Two years later, 1661 01:27:46,360 --> 01:27:49,560 Speaker 2: in twenty twelve, he was the second best heavyweight kickboxer 1662 01:27:49,600 --> 01:27:54,360 Speaker 2: on the planet. That sounds very impressive, right, Yeah, yeah, 1663 01:27:54,400 --> 01:27:56,479 Speaker 2: I mean second best kickboxer on the planet. That means 1664 01:27:56,520 --> 01:28:01,200 Speaker 2: you can kick to death anybody but one guy. Yeah, 1665 01:28:01,280 --> 01:28:04,559 Speaker 2: that is not what that actually means. So I'm gonna 1666 01:28:04,560 --> 01:28:06,360 Speaker 2: be honest. All of the articles about him will just 1667 01:28:06,360 --> 01:28:09,120 Speaker 2: say he was the second best light heavyweight. Sometimes they'll 1668 01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:12,120 Speaker 2: just say the second x kickboxer on the planet. They'll 1669 01:28:12,120 --> 01:28:15,000 Speaker 2: talk about his championships and like lists the numbers. I 1670 01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:17,559 Speaker 2: was the first draft of this, actually, I just wrote 1671 01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:18,960 Speaker 2: that and then moved on and was like, hey, he's 1672 01:28:18,960 --> 01:28:21,920 Speaker 2: really good at kickboxing. Lots of bad people are really 1673 01:28:21,920 --> 01:28:24,800 Speaker 2: good at something. I assumed he was, as like, I 1674 01:28:24,840 --> 01:28:27,840 Speaker 2: figured that that was true. I looked at his Wikipedia page, 1675 01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:30,200 Speaker 2: which says he has like seventy nine wins and nine 1676 01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:33,160 Speaker 2: losses and lists his championships, and he did win a 1677 01:28:33,160 --> 01:28:37,120 Speaker 2: bunch of what are called world championships. However, that's not 1678 01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:39,880 Speaker 2: how boxing works, because I also looked up a bunch 1679 01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:43,160 Speaker 2: of discussions of boxing fans analyzing his actual performance, and 1680 01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:45,280 Speaker 2: one thing they'll point up is that, well, there's not 1681 01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:49,040 Speaker 2: just one guy who's the best at kickboxing. Kickboxing is 1682 01:28:49,080 --> 01:28:51,679 Speaker 2: actually an incredibly fragmented sport, and there are a bunch 1683 01:28:51,720 --> 01:28:53,120 Speaker 2: of different I think, I don't know if they call 1684 01:28:53,200 --> 01:28:56,280 Speaker 2: him leagues or whatever. There's a bunch of different types 1685 01:28:56,320 --> 01:29:00,840 Speaker 2: of kickboxing championships, and some are more impressive than others. Right, 1686 01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:03,640 Speaker 2: Some are people who are really good at kickboxing, some 1687 01:29:03,720 --> 01:29:06,800 Speaker 2: are people who are more amateur, and Andrew kind of 1688 01:29:06,840 --> 01:29:09,639 Speaker 2: stayed doing the more amateur stuff, and he was really 1689 01:29:09,680 --> 01:29:14,040 Speaker 2: good at beating amateur kickboxers. One of the critiques people 1690 01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:17,719 Speaker 2: will note who are into kickboxing is that the league 1691 01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:21,759 Speaker 2: that he became world or light heavyweight champion in only 1692 01:29:21,800 --> 01:29:22,559 Speaker 2: covers Europe. 1693 01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:24,960 Speaker 5: So, okay, you. 1694 01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:27,639 Speaker 2: Guys might notice there's a couple of places that are 1695 01:29:27,680 --> 01:29:30,800 Speaker 2: the world that aren't Europe. That iume. I assume there's 1696 01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:34,479 Speaker 2: some kickboxers in those places, at least one or yeah, 1697 01:29:34,479 --> 01:29:38,400 Speaker 2: at least a couple. The other thing they'll point out 1698 01:29:38,439 --> 01:29:40,599 Speaker 2: is that of all of these fights that he had 1699 01:29:40,640 --> 01:29:43,599 Speaker 2: and he claims like seventy nine wins, they can only 1700 01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:47,519 Speaker 2: verify like forty something fights because and this is that 1701 01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:50,080 Speaker 2: may not mean that he's lying it. It's all of 1702 01:29:50,120 --> 01:29:52,479 Speaker 2: the ways that the shit gets reported are weird, right, 1703 01:29:52,760 --> 01:29:55,519 Speaker 2: and there's so many different weird leagues and shit. He 1704 01:29:55,680 --> 01:29:57,800 Speaker 2: might be lying about the total number of wins and 1705 01:29:57,840 --> 01:29:59,640 Speaker 2: games he was in, but of the things that we 1706 01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:03,439 Speaker 2: can terrify only this is something kickboxing fans will point out. 1707 01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:06,719 Speaker 2: Only five of his fights are against guys with Wikipedia pages, 1708 01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:09,960 Speaker 2: And that sounds, but it means like guys who are 1709 01:30:10,000 --> 01:30:12,519 Speaker 2: notable enough that they they have caught like are good 1710 01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:13,440 Speaker 2: enough at kickboxing. 1711 01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:16,479 Speaker 3: So he lost fights were against like nobodies or nobody 1712 01:30:16,560 --> 01:30:19,439 Speaker 3: for guys who just you know, on the weekends or something. 1713 01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:22,160 Speaker 2: Of the notable five fights he was in, he lost 1714 01:30:22,200 --> 01:30:26,680 Speaker 2: three of them. The allegation kickboxing fans will make is 1715 01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:29,639 Speaker 2: that he mostly fought amateurs to pad his record. Now, 1716 01:30:29,840 --> 01:30:33,120 Speaker 2: everyone agrees he's still that's still pretty good at kickboxing, 1717 01:30:33,400 --> 01:30:35,519 Speaker 2: but he is not the second He was never the 1718 01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:39,080 Speaker 2: second best on the Planet Earth at kickboxing. That's just 1719 01:30:39,120 --> 01:30:43,559 Speaker 2: simply not the case. And I think it's it's fair 1720 01:30:43,600 --> 01:30:45,880 Speaker 2: to say, yeah, he's pretty good at kickboxing, he was 1721 01:30:45,920 --> 01:30:47,720 Speaker 2: never as good as he claimed, and this is a 1722 01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:50,639 Speaker 2: part of the self mythologizing that he engages in kind 1723 01:30:50,640 --> 01:30:55,160 Speaker 2: of vastly exaggerating his competency at kicking people a bunch 1724 01:30:55,200 --> 01:31:00,760 Speaker 2: with his feet. So yeah, it's all It's worth noting that, 1725 01:31:00,880 --> 01:31:04,479 Speaker 2: like the level Tait actually was at did not pay 1726 01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:07,720 Speaker 2: terribly well. The per fight amount is impressive. He can 1727 01:31:07,800 --> 01:31:10,360 Speaker 2: make between fifty and one hundred thousand dollars per fight 1728 01:31:10,560 --> 01:31:13,360 Speaker 2: that he was in, but he was having like one 1729 01:31:13,479 --> 01:31:17,559 Speaker 2: or two fights per year, which is not terrible income. 1730 01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:20,479 Speaker 2: But you're paying for a coach, you're paying for Jim access, 1731 01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:23,240 Speaker 2: you're paying for the medical care that comes from this, 1732 01:31:23,280 --> 01:31:26,360 Speaker 2: and he's going to have several serious injuries. So he's 1733 01:31:26,400 --> 01:31:29,400 Speaker 2: not living well off of this salary. And in fact, 1734 01:31:29,479 --> 01:31:31,879 Speaker 2: he and his brother are living in a cheap apartment 1735 01:31:32,840 --> 01:31:35,640 Speaker 2: I think in Bedfordshire and eating as cheaply as they 1736 01:31:35,720 --> 01:31:39,240 Speaker 2: possibly can in order to afford to keep being in kickboxing. 1737 01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:41,400 Speaker 2: Because it's like that's kind of what it is when 1738 01:31:41,439 --> 01:31:44,320 Speaker 2: you're competing at this kind of awkward level that he's at, 1739 01:31:45,040 --> 01:31:47,840 Speaker 2: and Tate relates aspects of this himself in a video 1740 01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:50,000 Speaker 2: from twenty twenty two. And I'm going to play this 1741 01:31:50,080 --> 01:31:51,880 Speaker 2: so everyone can get a look and listen to the 1742 01:31:51,920 --> 01:31:54,760 Speaker 2: guy before we can go any further. This is from 1743 01:31:54,840 --> 01:31:58,760 Speaker 2: his video on Rumble. This is his like you Like 1744 01:31:58,880 --> 01:32:02,360 Speaker 2: Rumble is right wing you tube and his channel is 1745 01:32:02,400 --> 01:32:07,599 Speaker 2: called Tate Speech as in hate speech. But you guys 1746 01:32:07,600 --> 01:32:10,000 Speaker 2: get it right, I don't need here. 1747 01:32:10,040 --> 01:32:13,639 Speaker 1: It is the first first clip world. 1748 01:32:13,520 --> 01:32:17,880 Speaker 6: Level athletes with no money. We invented a dish that 1749 01:32:18,040 --> 01:32:21,600 Speaker 6: was so bland. We called it Flavor because it was 1750 01:32:21,600 --> 01:32:23,760 Speaker 6: the only way you could add flavor to the dish, 1751 01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:27,400 Speaker 6: So it had the name Flavor, but it was extremely bland, 1752 01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:32,439 Speaker 6: and it was white rice frozen peas because they're cheap. 1753 01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:33,759 Speaker 1: Kidney beans. 1754 01:32:34,320 --> 01:32:37,880 Speaker 6: Kidney beans have more protein per one hundred grams than 1755 01:32:37,960 --> 01:32:38,719 Speaker 6: minced beef. 1756 01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:39,400 Speaker 2: Did you know that? 1757 01:32:39,680 --> 01:32:41,600 Speaker 6: I found out when I was broke, walk in the 1758 01:32:41,600 --> 01:32:43,799 Speaker 6: aisles at a grocery store trying to find the cheapest 1759 01:32:44,040 --> 01:32:46,720 Speaker 6: protein money can buy. Could it have bring myself to 1760 01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:47,360 Speaker 6: be a vegetarian? 1761 01:32:47,400 --> 01:32:47,920 Speaker 1: So I'd add a. 1762 01:32:47,880 --> 01:32:50,800 Speaker 6: Little bit of mate minced beef and if I was 1763 01:32:50,920 --> 01:32:53,479 Speaker 6: really rich, i'd have hot sauce. 1764 01:32:54,240 --> 01:32:58,200 Speaker 2: And I actually suspect he's probably not lying too much there. 1765 01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:02,439 Speaker 2: That seems like a a reasonable story. And I know 1766 01:33:02,520 --> 01:33:05,439 Speaker 2: some people who are professional athletes at that similar awkward 1767 01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:08,280 Speaker 2: level where you're like a pro but you're not rich, 1768 01:33:08,439 --> 01:33:10,840 Speaker 2: who are like, yeah, you do whatever it takes to 1769 01:33:10,920 --> 01:33:14,160 Speaker 2: like stay fueled, or that means cooking giant pots of 1770 01:33:14,240 --> 01:33:19,080 Speaker 2: like not delicious things just to stay Anyway, that seems 1771 01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:22,639 Speaker 2: broadly speaking, like he's probably not lying entirely about that. 1772 01:33:22,920 --> 01:33:24,960 Speaker 2: Now he is lying about he and his brother being 1773 01:33:25,000 --> 01:33:28,000 Speaker 2: world class athletes. You might say he was. That's going 1774 01:33:28,040 --> 01:33:29,479 Speaker 2: to be up to what you define that as. But 1775 01:33:29,560 --> 01:33:32,840 Speaker 2: Tristan is not competing in kickboxing. He is working as 1776 01:33:32,920 --> 01:33:37,720 Speaker 2: like a coach kind of, although people will criticize that 1777 01:33:37,760 --> 01:33:40,599 Speaker 2: in ways that are too weirdly nuanced and involve knowledge 1778 01:33:40,600 --> 01:33:43,160 Speaker 2: of kickboxing. So we're just going to move on now. 1779 01:33:43,320 --> 01:33:46,040 Speaker 2: The height of his career as a guy who kicks 1780 01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:49,639 Speaker 2: people for money comes in like twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, 1781 01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:53,559 Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, I think is his last big championship, and 1782 01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:56,479 Speaker 2: not long after that he decides to leave professional sports 1783 01:33:56,520 --> 01:34:00,160 Speaker 2: as a full time thing. Injuries play a major role 1784 01:34:00,240 --> 01:34:04,280 Speaker 2: in this. Tate does not like talking about vulnerability, but 1785 01:34:04,640 --> 01:34:08,080 Speaker 2: he was worse at taking hits than he likes to pretend. 1786 01:34:08,760 --> 01:34:12,320 Speaker 2: He suffered detached retinas in several fights and had to 1787 01:34:12,360 --> 01:34:15,679 Speaker 2: have surgery for his eyes. So he was like, he's 1788 01:34:15,760 --> 01:34:18,519 Speaker 2: I mean again and again. That's the I'm pointing this 1789 01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:21,160 Speaker 2: out because he will never admit it. Like, if you're 1790 01:34:21,240 --> 01:34:23,840 Speaker 2: a professional kickboxer, at some point, you're going to get 1791 01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:26,920 Speaker 2: hurt enough that you can't keep doing kickboxing, like we 1792 01:34:27,000 --> 01:34:30,000 Speaker 2: all saw, like Muhammad Ali go from you know Muhammad 1793 01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:34,200 Speaker 2: Ali to you know, a guy who has severe injuries 1794 01:34:34,200 --> 01:34:36,080 Speaker 2: as a result of being a boxer. All this stuff's 1795 01:34:36,080 --> 01:34:38,240 Speaker 2: bad for you, like you either quit it a certain 1796 01:34:38,280 --> 01:34:40,639 Speaker 2: point or it destroys your body and mind the same 1797 01:34:40,640 --> 01:34:42,559 Speaker 2: way that like football or whatever it does. I mean, 1798 01:34:42,600 --> 01:34:45,120 Speaker 2: we all just got a reminder of that a couple 1799 01:34:45,200 --> 01:34:48,160 Speaker 2: of weeks ago with oh, the guy who had a 1800 01:34:48,160 --> 01:34:51,519 Speaker 2: heart attack on the Yeah, this is all pretty like 1801 01:34:51,640 --> 01:34:54,200 Speaker 2: normal sports stuff, right like it you are when you're 1802 01:34:54,240 --> 01:34:56,599 Speaker 2: watching guys do these kind of combat sports. You are 1803 01:34:56,640 --> 01:35:00,360 Speaker 2: watching people like mortgage their bodies in the hope of 1804 01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:03,720 Speaker 2: getting rich, and Tate kind of had to accept at 1805 01:35:03,720 --> 01:35:06,160 Speaker 2: a certain point, my body is going to give out 1806 01:35:06,200 --> 01:35:10,320 Speaker 2: before I get rich doing this. So you know, that's 1807 01:35:10,360 --> 01:35:13,360 Speaker 2: the thing that he recognizes, and he decides I need 1808 01:35:13,400 --> 01:35:16,080 Speaker 2: to let my most professional athletes do. I need to 1809 01:35:16,320 --> 01:35:18,519 Speaker 2: find something else I can do that's easier on my 1810 01:35:18,600 --> 01:35:21,280 Speaker 2: body that I can support myself with. You know, some 1811 01:35:21,320 --> 01:35:24,800 Speaker 2: people open car dealerships. Some people decide to you know, 1812 01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:29,280 Speaker 2: sell ads for different things and be pitchman. Some people 1813 01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:34,520 Speaker 2: go into professional baseball. Tristan decided to become a webcam 1814 01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:39,920 Speaker 2: sex pimp. So that's that's an interesting call. I do 1815 01:35:39,960 --> 01:35:42,519 Speaker 2: think history would have been different in fascinating ways that 1816 01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:48,840 Speaker 2: that's the choice Michael Jordan had made. Sophie, don't give 1817 01:35:48,840 --> 01:35:53,599 Speaker 2: you that look anyway. 1818 01:35:54,280 --> 01:35:58,360 Speaker 1: What I'm just saying that look, you deserved it. 1819 01:35:58,960 --> 01:36:02,320 Speaker 2: I usually do so for three years, they run a 1820 01:36:02,439 --> 01:36:06,920 Speaker 2: rapidly expanding business finding women to act as cam operators. Now, 1821 01:36:07,240 --> 01:36:10,880 Speaker 2: this is not an inherently dishonest business. I guess if 1822 01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:14,800 Speaker 2: you are, you know, building a studio and building like 1823 01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:17,960 Speaker 2: a platform by which you can you know, bring these 1824 01:36:18,240 --> 01:36:22,479 Speaker 2: these cam workers attention, and they understand their contracts and 1825 01:36:22,560 --> 01:36:26,160 Speaker 2: like it's a reasonably fair split. I don't have an 1826 01:36:26,200 --> 01:36:30,719 Speaker 2: ethical issue with building a company that allows sex workers 1827 01:36:30,760 --> 01:36:34,640 Speaker 2: to do cam work, right, that's that's fine. But the 1828 01:36:34,640 --> 01:36:37,640 Speaker 2: business that Tait interest and operated was not fine. It 1829 01:36:37,720 --> 01:36:39,160 Speaker 2: was fundamentally pretty toxic. 1830 01:36:39,360 --> 01:36:45,080 Speaker 1: No shit, the brothers didn't have a environment, all right, cool. 1831 01:36:45,800 --> 01:36:48,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to quote now from an article in 1832 01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:51,599 Speaker 2: The Mirror, which is not an ideal source, but it's 1833 01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:53,599 Speaker 2: who entered them about this. And I don't know why 1834 01:36:53,600 --> 01:36:56,240 Speaker 2: they would lie about something this shady and gross, because 1835 01:36:56,280 --> 01:36:58,080 Speaker 2: it makes them seem like sex criminals. 1836 01:36:58,479 --> 01:36:58,879 Speaker 5: Quote. 1837 01:36:59,720 --> 01:37:01,840 Speaker 2: Some of their customers fall for the belief that they 1838 01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:04,000 Speaker 2: can have a real relationship with the women they see 1839 01:37:04,040 --> 01:37:07,519 Speaker 2: on screen, but Tristan brazenly told The Sunday Mirror it's 1840 01:37:07,560 --> 01:37:09,960 Speaker 2: all a big scam and bragged that he doesn't feel 1841 01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:13,599 Speaker 2: any guilt because no one cares and it's their problem, 1842 01:37:13,680 --> 01:37:18,240 Speaker 2: not mine. The more punter's handover, the more models earn. 1843 01:37:18,479 --> 01:37:20,960 Speaker 2: Some women will claim to have crippling university debt, a 1844 01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:23,320 Speaker 2: family member in need of private healthcare, or a dream 1845 01:37:23,360 --> 01:37:25,720 Speaker 2: of moving to the UK, sometimes even telling men they 1846 01:37:25,760 --> 01:37:28,360 Speaker 2: want to meet them. Whatever the excuse is, it is 1847 01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:33,840 Speaker 2: a lie, Tristan said. So he tells a story in 1848 01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:36,360 Speaker 2: this article about this guy who wanted to give a 1849 01:37:36,439 --> 01:37:40,560 Speaker 2: cam operator twenty thousand dollars his life savings, and Tristan's like, 1850 01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:42,120 Speaker 2: and I try. I talked him out of it. I 1851 01:37:42,120 --> 01:37:43,920 Speaker 2: told him, you know, he shouldn't do that. She was 1852 01:37:43,960 --> 01:37:46,240 Speaker 2: actually making good money. And then he came back a 1853 01:37:46,240 --> 01:37:48,599 Speaker 2: couple of months later and fell in love with another 1854 01:37:48,640 --> 01:37:50,320 Speaker 2: and this time I was like, yeah, man, we'll take 1855 01:37:50,360 --> 01:37:54,920 Speaker 2: your money, which definitely a lie. Tristan and Andrew Tate 1856 01:37:55,000 --> 01:37:57,880 Speaker 2: have never turned down twenty grand that a desperate man 1857 01:37:57,960 --> 01:38:01,040 Speaker 2: offered them for lies, trying to. 1858 01:38:03,760 --> 01:38:05,679 Speaker 1: Absolutely bread and butter. 1859 01:38:06,840 --> 01:38:10,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, I am going to continue that quote from the Mirror, 1860 01:38:10,680 --> 01:38:13,280 Speaker 2: but first, you know what I am going to continue 1861 01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:19,200 Speaker 2: first is capitalism. I am. I am keeping this nightmare 1862 01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:23,439 Speaker 2: engine alive on my own by advertising for products on 1863 01:38:23,479 --> 01:38:27,679 Speaker 2: this podcast. So on your own, that's it. That's I am. 1864 01:38:27,720 --> 01:38:30,800 Speaker 2: I am the lynch pin holding the global economy. 1865 01:38:30,360 --> 01:38:31,639 Speaker 1: Together on your own. 1866 01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:35,840 Speaker 2: Look after Facebook fell apart, it's just me, baby, Oh 1867 01:38:35,920 --> 01:38:43,360 Speaker 2: my god, name another company, Sophie, It's just this podcast. 1868 01:38:42,520 --> 01:38:47,759 Speaker 1: Just run, just run the ads. He's out of control. 1869 01:38:54,040 --> 01:39:03,720 Speaker 2: Uh, we are back. So I'm going to continue that 1870 01:39:03,800 --> 01:39:08,160 Speaker 2: quote from the Sunday Mirror of Tristan Tate being interviewed. 1871 01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:10,960 Speaker 2: He believes he is beyond the reach of the authorities 1872 01:39:11,200 --> 01:39:14,120 Speaker 2: because of two lines in the terms and conditions. He said, 1873 01:39:14,479 --> 01:39:18,200 Speaker 2: One is broadcasting is for entertainment purposes only. That means 1874 01:39:18,200 --> 01:39:20,080 Speaker 2: if a model says she has a sick dog or 1875 01:39:20,080 --> 01:39:23,080 Speaker 2: a sick grandma, it doesn't have to be true. The 1876 01:39:23,120 --> 01:39:25,160 Speaker 2: next is that all cash given to models is a 1877 01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:30,679 Speaker 2: voluntary sign of gratitude for their time broadcasting. Now, I'm 1878 01:39:30,720 --> 01:39:31,320 Speaker 2: not a lawyer. 1879 01:39:32,320 --> 01:39:34,760 Speaker 1: That kind of sounds like the taking their money. 1880 01:39:34,800 --> 01:39:36,760 Speaker 2: It does sound like you're taking their money. That said, 1881 01:39:36,840 --> 01:39:39,160 Speaker 2: he may be in the right there. The mirror did 1882 01:39:39,160 --> 01:39:41,559 Speaker 2: a journalistic thing and they reached out to a lawyer 1883 01:39:41,680 --> 01:39:46,120 Speaker 2: to be like, is this true, And the lawyer said maybe. 1884 01:39:46,160 --> 01:39:50,040 Speaker 2: But also generally UK laws say that you can't defraud 1885 01:39:50,080 --> 01:39:53,639 Speaker 2: people and take their money on fraudulent terms. But also 1886 01:39:53,880 --> 01:39:57,240 Speaker 2: the laws haven't kept pace with technology. There's a good 1887 01:39:57,360 --> 01:39:59,439 Speaker 2: chance he was in a legal gray area. They did 1888 01:39:59,479 --> 01:40:04,120 Speaker 2: not get charged, so probably is fair to say they 1889 01:40:04,120 --> 01:40:05,840 Speaker 2: were in enough of a legal gray area that they 1890 01:40:05,840 --> 01:40:09,280 Speaker 2: were reasonably safe. And to be like, perfectly honest, I 1891 01:40:09,320 --> 01:40:12,920 Speaker 2: suspect they could have done this indefinitely. If Andrew Tate 1892 01:40:13,000 --> 01:40:16,240 Speaker 2: hadn't been a sex criminal, which is what we're getting 1893 01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:20,400 Speaker 2: to here. So Andrew Tate later wrote this on his 1894 01:40:20,520 --> 01:40:23,599 Speaker 2: personal website, slash Shady Business, teaching men to run there 1895 01:40:23,640 --> 01:40:27,080 Speaker 2: on webcam porn studios. This is a thing he does later, 1896 01:40:27,760 --> 01:40:30,240 Speaker 2: but this is how he talks about his webcam business 1897 01:40:30,280 --> 01:40:33,000 Speaker 2: and how he makes it work. God, how did I 1898 01:40:33,040 --> 01:40:36,479 Speaker 2: become rich webcam? I've been running a webcam studio for 1899 01:40:36,520 --> 01:40:39,559 Speaker 2: nearly a decade. I've had over seventy five girls work 1900 01:40:39,640 --> 01:40:41,719 Speaker 2: for me, and my business model is different than ninety 1901 01:40:41,800 --> 01:40:45,280 Speaker 2: nine percent of webcam studio owners. Over fifty percent of 1902 01:40:45,360 --> 01:40:47,960 Speaker 2: my employees were actually my girlfriend at the time, and 1903 01:40:48,040 --> 01:40:50,960 Speaker 2: if all my girlfriends, none were in the adult industry 1904 01:40:51,080 --> 01:40:54,200 Speaker 2: entertainment industry before they met me. My job was getting 1905 01:40:54,240 --> 01:40:56,640 Speaker 2: women to fall in love with me. Literally, that was 1906 01:40:56,720 --> 01:40:58,760 Speaker 2: my job. My job was to meet a girl, go 1907 01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:01,360 Speaker 2: on a few dates, sleep her, test if she's quality, 1908 01:41:01,560 --> 01:41:03,080 Speaker 2: get her to fall in love with me to where 1909 01:41:03,080 --> 01:41:05,200 Speaker 2: she do anything I'd say, and then get her on 1910 01:41:05,280 --> 01:41:07,840 Speaker 2: webcams so we could become rich together. Whether you agree 1911 01:41:07,960 --> 01:41:10,280 Speaker 2: or disagree with what I did with their loyalties, submission 1912 01:41:10,280 --> 01:41:13,080 Speaker 2: and love for me doesn't matter. You cannot reject the results. 1913 01:41:13,080 --> 01:41:15,639 Speaker 2: And the results are simple. My girlfriends would do more 1914 01:41:15,680 --> 01:41:17,800 Speaker 2: for me than ninety nine point nine percent of men's 1915 01:41:17,800 --> 01:41:20,000 Speaker 2: wives would do for them. 1916 01:41:20,320 --> 01:41:24,160 Speaker 5: So what does that make That's one of the grossest things. 1917 01:41:25,200 --> 01:41:28,559 Speaker 2: Is really gross's and. 1918 01:41:28,560 --> 01:41:33,439 Speaker 1: Like voluntarily listed on his own site in it it's 1919 01:41:33,520 --> 01:41:34,720 Speaker 1: just fucking. 1920 01:41:34,439 --> 01:41:39,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, he bragged about this. Now, this is potentially him 1921 01:41:39,160 --> 01:41:41,120 Speaker 2: describing sex trafficking. 1922 01:41:40,800 --> 01:41:43,759 Speaker 1: Right, Especially, that's what it sounds like if. 1923 01:41:43,600 --> 01:41:46,000 Speaker 2: You're if the women are not getting Now again, there's 1924 01:41:46,000 --> 01:41:48,559 Speaker 2: not like a law that says you can't have someone 1925 01:41:48,600 --> 01:41:51,400 Speaker 2: fall in love with you and then contract with them 1926 01:41:51,439 --> 01:41:55,240 Speaker 2: to do sex work, right, that's not a thing that 1927 01:41:55,280 --> 01:41:58,880 Speaker 2: there's a law against. However, if they are not getting 1928 01:41:58,920 --> 01:42:01,919 Speaker 2: paid for it, and if they are not being allowed 1929 01:42:01,960 --> 01:42:04,960 Speaker 2: freedom of movement, well then what happens is that you 1930 01:42:05,000 --> 01:42:08,120 Speaker 2: have like entrapped them and you are sex trafficking them. Right. 1931 01:42:08,200 --> 01:42:10,479 Speaker 2: This is what's called law enforcement calls this the lover 1932 01:42:10,600 --> 01:42:12,800 Speaker 2: boy method, right, where you get someone to fall in 1933 01:42:12,840 --> 01:42:14,600 Speaker 2: love with you. And also this is this goes on. 1934 01:42:14,720 --> 01:42:18,640 Speaker 2: This is a very old tactic in like shall we 1935 01:42:18,680 --> 01:42:23,120 Speaker 2: say pimping, where like, yeah, you make a woman feel 1936 01:42:23,160 --> 01:42:26,120 Speaker 2: like or a person be in love and dependent on you, 1937 01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:30,280 Speaker 2: and then you kind of emotionally abuse them into doing 1938 01:42:30,360 --> 01:42:32,840 Speaker 2: sex work. This is a thing that happens that is 1939 01:42:32,880 --> 01:42:38,440 Speaker 2: like a recognized part of a criminal enterprise. Now, obviously 1940 01:42:38,640 --> 01:42:41,439 Speaker 2: getting charges based on those words on his website is 1941 01:42:41,479 --> 01:42:44,200 Speaker 2: going to be hard to do, but just kind of 1942 01:42:44,200 --> 01:42:46,280 Speaker 2: the stuff that he had published for a while was 1943 01:42:46,439 --> 01:42:48,280 Speaker 2: enough that people at the time should have known that 1944 01:42:48,320 --> 01:42:52,439 Speaker 2: he was up to a what was a likely illegal business. Now, 1945 01:42:52,720 --> 01:42:55,200 Speaker 2: if you came across articles about Tate in twenty twenty 1946 01:42:55,280 --> 01:42:56,960 Speaker 2: one under twenty twenty two and they went to any 1947 01:42:57,040 --> 01:42:59,720 Speaker 2: detail about his webcam career, the most you were likely 1948 01:42:59,720 --> 01:43:02,200 Speaker 2: to learn and was what the Mirror wrote here. After 1949 01:43:02,240 --> 01:43:04,880 Speaker 2: three years they moved to Romania, saying the UK had 1950 01:43:04,920 --> 01:43:07,960 Speaker 2: gone downhill. They have women on a number of CD sites. 1951 01:43:08,040 --> 01:43:10,479 Speaker 2: Operators take a forty percent cut and the rest goes 1952 01:43:10,520 --> 01:43:15,479 Speaker 2: to the studio. So that's that's what they claimed for 1953 01:43:15,760 --> 01:43:17,680 Speaker 2: years had happened, like, you know, we did it in 1954 01:43:17,720 --> 01:43:19,640 Speaker 2: the UK and then the UK got woke and so 1955 01:43:19,720 --> 01:43:24,200 Speaker 2: we switched to Romania. That is not what actually happened. 1956 01:43:24,360 --> 01:43:27,880 Speaker 2: So they started running this can business in twenty twelve. 1957 01:43:28,400 --> 01:43:30,839 Speaker 2: Three years after twenty twelve, and they moved to Romania. 1958 01:43:30,880 --> 01:43:34,679 Speaker 2: It's twenty fifteen now, just a few days ago after 1959 01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:37,439 Speaker 2: his arrest, a story drop that made it clear why 1960 01:43:37,479 --> 01:43:39,840 Speaker 2: they actually left the UK, and it had nothing to 1961 01:43:39,880 --> 01:43:43,200 Speaker 2: do with wokeness or the country going downhill. Andrew Tate 1962 01:43:43,280 --> 01:43:46,320 Speaker 2: was arrested on suspicion of sexual assault and physical abuse 1963 01:43:46,400 --> 01:43:50,880 Speaker 2: in twenty and fifteen. Weiss broke the story quote. Two 1964 01:43:50,880 --> 01:43:54,120 Speaker 2: women told Vice World News they were violently abused, one raped, 1965 01:43:54,160 --> 01:43:57,120 Speaker 2: the other repeatedly strangled by Andrew Tate, and that UK 1966 01:43:57,240 --> 01:44:00,559 Speaker 2: police and the Crown Prosecution Service mishandled their case, leaving 1967 01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:02,519 Speaker 2: him free to rise to global fame on the back 1968 01:44:02,560 --> 01:44:05,519 Speaker 2: of his unchecked misogyny. Police took four years to pass 1969 01:44:05,560 --> 01:44:08,679 Speaker 2: their investigation to the Crown Prosecution Service, whose job involves 1970 01:44:08,680 --> 01:44:11,880 Speaker 2: assessing whether there is a realistic prospect of conviction, at 1971 01:44:11,880 --> 01:44:17,360 Speaker 2: which point the CPS declined to prosecute. So that's the 1972 01:44:17,400 --> 01:44:20,639 Speaker 2: reality of why they had to leave the UK. 1973 01:44:21,840 --> 01:44:24,120 Speaker 1: Fucking vile, disgusting human beings. 1974 01:44:24,160 --> 01:44:27,439 Speaker 2: And it makes the timeline makes a lot more sense 1975 01:44:27,479 --> 01:44:30,040 Speaker 2: when you know that, when he's like, yeah, oh, we 1976 01:44:30,080 --> 01:44:31,960 Speaker 2: had to bounce because you know, things just got to 1977 01:44:32,080 --> 01:44:35,320 Speaker 2: woke for us in Romania. And he would also. He 1978 01:44:35,439 --> 01:44:37,840 Speaker 2: later made the claim that, like, I had to leave 1979 01:44:37,920 --> 01:44:40,920 Speaker 2: Romania because in the UK a man can get accused 1980 01:44:40,960 --> 01:44:45,320 Speaker 2: of rape for anything, right, and you know, Romania, it's 1981 01:44:45,400 --> 01:44:47,640 Speaker 2: much harder to get accused of rape. And so I 1982 01:44:47,680 --> 01:44:50,080 Speaker 2: moved to Romania, not because I'm a rapist, but because 1983 01:44:50,120 --> 01:44:53,719 Speaker 2: I like freedom. No, man, you were accused of rape 1984 01:44:53,800 --> 01:44:58,640 Speaker 2: by multiple women and then investigated, and you decided to 1985 01:44:58,720 --> 01:45:01,400 Speaker 2: leave because you didn't know if the UK was going 1986 01:45:01,439 --> 01:45:04,840 Speaker 2: to come for your ass at some point. And the 1987 01:45:04,880 --> 01:45:06,680 Speaker 2: story is actually a bit more fucked up than that, 1988 01:45:06,760 --> 01:45:09,839 Speaker 2: because back in twenty fourteen, a woman who Vice refers 1989 01:45:09,880 --> 01:45:13,320 Speaker 2: to as Amelia filed a police report alleging sexual and 1990 01:45:13,360 --> 01:45:16,120 Speaker 2: physical abuse by Tate. She claims that she and Tate 1991 01:45:16,160 --> 01:45:18,320 Speaker 2: met in two thousand and nine. They were friendly for 1992 01:45:18,479 --> 01:45:22,640 Speaker 2: years until twenty thirteen, which is when Tate was transitioning 1993 01:45:22,640 --> 01:45:26,280 Speaker 2: away from kickboxing to webcam pimping. The two decided to 1994 01:45:26,320 --> 01:45:28,040 Speaker 2: go out on a series of dates at the end 1995 01:45:28,080 --> 01:45:30,120 Speaker 2: of that year, and after several weeks, they were in 1996 01:45:30,200 --> 01:45:33,760 Speaker 2: her room when Andrew forced himself on her. Now she 1997 01:45:33,920 --> 01:45:37,120 Speaker 2: describes him stopping. She tells him to stop when he 1998 01:45:37,160 --> 01:45:40,840 Speaker 2: starts like trying to go to have sex, and she 1999 01:45:40,960 --> 01:45:43,120 Speaker 2: tells him that she doesn't want to have sex, and 2000 01:45:43,400 --> 01:45:46,559 Speaker 2: he tells her she says that he like sits quietly 2001 01:45:46,640 --> 01:45:49,320 Speaker 2: for a moment, and then she asks him what's going on, 2002 01:45:49,439 --> 01:45:51,840 Speaker 2: and he says, I'm debating whether I should rape you 2003 01:45:51,960 --> 01:45:52,160 Speaker 2: or not. 2004 01:45:53,320 --> 01:45:55,280 Speaker 5: What what the thought? 2005 01:45:55,479 --> 01:46:00,479 Speaker 2: Oh boy, howdy, it's it's bad. Within an end, he 2006 01:46:00,600 --> 01:46:03,080 Speaker 2: changed who he was. He wasn't the same Andrew that 2007 01:46:03,120 --> 01:46:05,160 Speaker 2: I knew. That was funny, that would make me laugh. 2008 01:46:05,520 --> 01:46:07,519 Speaker 2: It was like his eyes went and I didn't have 2009 01:46:07,560 --> 01:46:09,280 Speaker 2: a clue who that person was. 2010 01:46:12,479 --> 01:46:19,559 Speaker 1: Terrifying, disgusting. Oh that's horrible. I'm so sorry that. 2011 01:46:21,120 --> 01:46:25,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's so. Here's one of the things about 2012 01:46:25,520 --> 01:46:28,800 Speaker 2: this is she goes to the cops. He rapes her, 2013 01:46:29,600 --> 01:46:32,720 Speaker 2: and it takes they they have. After that point, she 2014 01:46:32,960 --> 01:46:35,400 Speaker 2: consents to sec she says a couple of times over 2015 01:46:35,439 --> 01:46:39,640 Speaker 2: the next six months, which is not uncommon in situations 2016 01:46:39,680 --> 01:46:43,120 Speaker 2: like this. But eventually she goes to the police to 2017 01:46:43,280 --> 01:46:46,680 Speaker 2: make a complaint and the police are like, do you 2018 01:46:46,800 --> 01:46:49,559 Speaker 2: want to do you want to proceed with charges right, 2019 01:46:49,560 --> 01:46:51,280 Speaker 2: because that's an option that you have in this case, 2020 01:46:51,800 --> 01:46:55,639 Speaker 2: and she decides, obviously, I don't. I hopefully I don't 2021 01:46:55,640 --> 01:46:58,320 Speaker 2: think I have to explain this to this audience, but like, 2022 01:46:58,400 --> 01:47:01,120 Speaker 2: there are a lot of horrible persons consequences that can 2023 01:47:01,160 --> 01:47:05,639 Speaker 2: come to charging your rapist, right to pursuing with criminal charges, 2024 01:47:06,200 --> 01:47:08,439 Speaker 2: she decides, and there is, and this seems like a 2025 01:47:08,439 --> 01:47:10,479 Speaker 2: positive things. There's an option in the UK where you 2026 01:47:10,479 --> 01:47:13,240 Speaker 2: can just log a complaint and say this guy rape 2027 01:47:13,240 --> 01:47:17,160 Speaker 2: me without proceeding with criminal charges, which she decides she 2028 01:47:17,240 --> 01:47:19,519 Speaker 2: doesn't want to do at this point, and so that's 2029 01:47:19,560 --> 01:47:23,840 Speaker 2: what she does. And then this is again twenty thirteen, 2030 01:47:23,840 --> 01:47:26,360 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, is when those two women who worked in 2031 01:47:26,439 --> 01:47:30,800 Speaker 2: his cam studio push press charges against him and the 2032 01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:33,920 Speaker 2: police and this is a positive step. It's about to 2033 01:47:33,920 --> 01:47:36,599 Speaker 2: get less positive, but the police find out, oh, there's 2034 01:47:36,640 --> 01:47:39,439 Speaker 2: a report logged against this guy two years earlier, and 2035 01:47:39,479 --> 01:47:42,920 Speaker 2: they reach out to Amelia and they're like, more women 2036 01:47:42,920 --> 01:47:46,800 Speaker 2: have come forward saying that this guy assaulted them. Do 2037 01:47:46,840 --> 01:47:50,879 Speaker 2: you want your charges? Do you want your allegations basically 2038 01:47:50,960 --> 01:47:54,040 Speaker 2: to be added to theirs in this case that we're building, right, 2039 01:47:55,880 --> 01:47:58,519 Speaker 2: And she says yes, and she hands over her phone 2040 01:47:58,560 --> 01:48:01,920 Speaker 2: to the cops, which contained numerous audio notes because she 2041 01:48:01,960 --> 01:48:04,639 Speaker 2: had told Andrew and like text and stuff like, Hey, 2042 01:48:04,680 --> 01:48:06,120 Speaker 2: you know like you rate me. That's why I don't 2043 01:48:06,120 --> 01:48:09,120 Speaker 2: want to know you anymore. And he had responded to her. 2044 01:48:09,200 --> 01:48:12,639 Speaker 2: And he had responded to her using voice notes where 2045 01:48:12,680 --> 01:48:17,720 Speaker 2: he admitted to what he had done and Yeah, I'm 2046 01:48:17,760 --> 01:48:22,280 Speaker 2: gonna play a couple of notes of Andrew Tait here 2047 01:48:22,400 --> 01:48:26,000 Speaker 2: for you, because before we hear him in his like 2048 01:48:27,200 --> 01:48:31,840 Speaker 2: fifteen year old boy influencer voice, we should hear how 2049 01:48:31,880 --> 01:48:35,679 Speaker 2: he talks to somebody like Amelia when he doesn't think 2050 01:48:35,720 --> 01:48:37,880 Speaker 2: it's going to be on the news? 2051 01:48:38,200 --> 01:48:41,519 Speaker 4: Am I a bad person? Because the more you didn't 2052 01:48:41,560 --> 01:48:43,920 Speaker 4: like it, the more I enjoyed it. I fucking loved 2053 01:48:43,920 --> 01:48:46,240 Speaker 4: how much you hate it. 2054 01:48:45,520 --> 01:48:46,080 Speaker 5: Turn me on? 2055 01:48:47,720 --> 01:48:51,479 Speaker 4: Why am I like that? Why? I am one of 2056 01:48:51,479 --> 01:48:54,240 Speaker 4: the most dangerous men on this planet. Sometimes you forget 2057 01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:57,120 Speaker 4: exactly how lucky you were to get fucked by me. 2058 01:48:57,760 --> 01:48:59,680 Speaker 4: Would you rather me pin you down and make you 2059 01:48:59,680 --> 01:49:01,719 Speaker 4: do things she didn't like? Or would you rather fuck 2060 01:49:02,680 --> 01:49:04,600 Speaker 4: you didn't like that? I was thinking, I can do 2061 01:49:04,680 --> 01:49:07,639 Speaker 4: whatever I want to you. That's what it is. I'm 2062 01:49:07,680 --> 01:49:10,800 Speaker 4: the smartest person on this fucking planet. Are you seriously 2063 01:49:10,800 --> 01:49:13,479 Speaker 4: so offended? I strangled you a little bit. You didn't 2064 01:49:13,479 --> 01:49:17,800 Speaker 4: fucking pass out? Chill the fuck out, Jesus Christ. I 2065 01:49:17,840 --> 01:49:19,200 Speaker 4: thought you were cool. What's wrong with you? 2066 01:49:19,960 --> 01:49:22,200 Speaker 5: Oh my god? 2067 01:49:22,960 --> 01:49:26,800 Speaker 2: So that's not great. That's not great. 2068 01:49:26,960 --> 01:49:29,320 Speaker 5: That's so upsetting, that's so upsetting. 2069 01:49:30,000 --> 01:49:32,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty bad. He's he's a pretty bad dude. 2070 01:49:34,280 --> 01:49:40,400 Speaker 1: And what's vile? Disgusting, despicable? Yeah, waste geta like again. 2071 01:49:40,720 --> 01:49:43,479 Speaker 2: Normally self diagnosis is a thing we avoid on this, 2072 01:49:43,600 --> 01:49:47,760 Speaker 2: but like, that's just very obvious textbook narcissism. I am 2073 01:49:47,800 --> 01:49:50,800 Speaker 2: the smartest man in the world, you know, like he is, 2074 01:49:50,960 --> 01:49:54,479 Speaker 2: It's not hard to see what's going on with this guy. 2075 01:49:56,040 --> 01:49:57,960 Speaker 2: And I don't know his dad or like how that 2076 01:49:58,000 --> 01:50:01,479 Speaker 2: all went down, but there's there's there's this if you 2077 01:50:01,479 --> 01:50:03,000 Speaker 2: look at the way he talks about his dad and 2078 01:50:03,080 --> 01:50:07,440 Speaker 2: his grandpa, there's this need to like associate himself with greatness. 2079 01:50:08,800 --> 01:50:11,519 Speaker 2: And I don't know, like every everything that's going on 2080 01:50:11,640 --> 01:50:19,360 Speaker 2: here makes sense, but it's also so bleak, and I 2081 01:50:19,360 --> 01:50:21,799 Speaker 2: I don't know that there's probably a better a better 2082 01:50:23,080 --> 01:50:25,000 Speaker 2: writer and thinker than me might be able to draw 2083 01:50:25,400 --> 01:50:28,439 Speaker 2: a more trenchant connection between the kind of stuff that 2084 01:50:28,479 --> 01:50:32,320 Speaker 2: I was talking about about, how lack of connection to 2085 01:50:33,439 --> 01:50:36,519 Speaker 2: other men and to older men and how not knowing 2086 01:50:36,680 --> 01:50:40,640 Speaker 2: what your place is in society leads young men to 2087 01:50:40,960 --> 01:50:43,680 Speaker 2: feel disconnected and that that can be the root of 2088 01:50:44,520 --> 01:50:48,320 Speaker 2: some bad behavior. And the fact that Tate idolizes his 2089 01:50:48,400 --> 01:50:53,160 Speaker 2: dad and is separated from him and becomes so needful 2090 01:50:53,320 --> 01:50:56,880 Speaker 2: to kind of convince others of his greatness while using 2091 01:50:57,120 --> 01:51:00,920 Speaker 2: violence and threats against them. I don't know that there's 2092 01:51:00,960 --> 01:51:04,559 Speaker 2: a connection there, but it's it's I think, kind of 2093 01:51:04,600 --> 01:51:09,840 Speaker 2: worth thinking about. I guess in the same continuum, I 2094 01:51:09,880 --> 01:51:12,559 Speaker 2: don't know, this is still stuff like that. I'm kind 2095 01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:17,600 Speaker 2: of muddling through too, but it's it's not it's not 2096 01:51:17,720 --> 01:51:23,920 Speaker 2: surprising to me that this guy has this this kind 2097 01:51:23,960 --> 01:51:27,360 Speaker 2: of obsession with his because that's what it's about, right, 2098 01:51:27,400 --> 01:51:30,400 Speaker 2: It's it's never about like that he wanted, you know, 2099 01:51:30,560 --> 01:51:31,760 Speaker 2: sex or whatever. It's about that. 2100 01:51:31,800 --> 01:51:32,639 Speaker 5: It's about this power. 2101 01:51:33,040 --> 01:51:36,120 Speaker 2: It's about power he had this and it's about the 2102 01:51:36,120 --> 01:51:37,880 Speaker 2: fact that she didn't want to have sex with him 2103 01:51:38,000 --> 01:51:43,240 Speaker 2: is like an attempt from her to exercise agency. And 2104 01:51:43,320 --> 01:51:45,839 Speaker 2: no one else in the world gets to exercise agency 2105 01:51:46,000 --> 01:51:49,200 Speaker 2: just Andrew Taate, Right, Like that's the way this guy 2106 01:51:49,240 --> 01:51:54,920 Speaker 2: thinks about things. I don't know. There's a lot going 2107 01:51:54,960 --> 01:51:58,760 Speaker 2: on there worth worth pondering, and I guess we will 2108 01:51:58,760 --> 01:52:01,280 Speaker 2: ponder it for a while while we wait for part 2109 01:52:01,360 --> 01:52:03,439 Speaker 2: three of this series, where we will talk about the 2110 01:52:03,479 --> 01:52:08,840 Speaker 2: fallout from these cases and the social media presence that 2111 01:52:08,920 --> 01:52:12,920 Speaker 2: Tate builds. When again, nobody knows this ath I mean this, 2112 01:52:12,920 --> 01:52:15,000 Speaker 2: this this young woman knows it, and a couple of 2113 01:52:15,040 --> 01:52:19,479 Speaker 2: police officers know it. But as a spoiler, the police 2114 01:52:19,479 --> 01:52:23,840 Speaker 2: don't proceed with the charges and in fact they uh, 2115 01:52:24,680 --> 01:52:28,519 Speaker 2: it's really fucked up. The police say that they believe her, 2116 01:52:28,640 --> 01:52:31,479 Speaker 2: or Amelia says what she said to to Vice when 2117 01:52:31,479 --> 01:52:33,439 Speaker 2: they talked to her is that the police told her 2118 01:52:33,479 --> 01:52:35,839 Speaker 2: that they believed her claims, but they couldn't go forward 2119 01:52:35,880 --> 01:52:38,000 Speaker 2: with the case because there was a shred of doubt 2120 01:52:38,080 --> 01:52:39,040 Speaker 2: about Tate's guilt. 2121 01:52:41,280 --> 01:52:43,240 Speaker 1: Now and there's a shred of doubt. 2122 01:52:43,040 --> 01:52:45,080 Speaker 2: And see it does seem like he admitted. 2123 01:52:44,720 --> 01:52:45,880 Speaker 5: It directly. 2124 01:52:47,479 --> 01:52:48,759 Speaker 1: Seeing a sexual predator. 2125 01:52:48,840 --> 01:52:49,720 Speaker 2: What we. 2126 01:52:51,600 --> 01:52:51,880 Speaker 1: Cop. 2127 01:52:52,160 --> 01:52:54,720 Speaker 2: There's some fucked up cop gas lighting here because they 2128 01:52:54,720 --> 01:52:59,559 Speaker 2: tell her like, look, going through the process of pressing 2129 01:52:59,720 --> 01:53:02,479 Speaker 2: charge is against a rapist is so traumatic to the 2130 01:53:02,520 --> 01:53:05,439 Speaker 2: woman that we don't do it unless there's no shred 2131 01:53:05,520 --> 01:53:09,280 Speaker 2: of doubt. We're trying to protect you from the which 2132 01:53:09,320 --> 01:53:12,880 Speaker 2: is like cop gas lighting is on another level. 2133 01:53:14,640 --> 01:53:19,520 Speaker 1: That's it's hard. I'm so sorry, Amelia. 2134 01:53:19,080 --> 01:53:23,799 Speaker 2: That's yeah, it's fucking Bleak's this whole story is bleak. 2135 01:53:24,400 --> 01:53:27,280 Speaker 2: And after this point, Andrew and Tristan moved to Romania. 2136 01:53:27,400 --> 01:53:30,680 Speaker 2: They move their sex trafficking webcam business to Romania, and 2137 01:53:30,720 --> 01:53:34,280 Speaker 2: we will pick up that story in part three where 2138 01:53:34,920 --> 01:53:37,639 Speaker 2: it gets a lot bleaker in some ways, but also 2139 01:53:37,800 --> 01:53:40,280 Speaker 2: we get to make fun of Andrew tait videos. 2140 01:53:40,040 --> 01:53:45,519 Speaker 1: So you know something to look forward to. 2141 01:53:45,560 --> 01:53:49,880 Speaker 2: Take your wins where you can get them. Kiddos, what 2142 01:53:49,920 --> 01:53:52,280 Speaker 2: do we? Who are we? Who are we here? 2143 01:53:52,760 --> 01:53:52,960 Speaker 1: Ah? 2144 01:53:53,800 --> 01:53:56,240 Speaker 5: We're the bad boys of podcasting obviously. 2145 01:53:59,479 --> 01:54:02,679 Speaker 1: Uh well, all right, Robert, I think I think both 2146 01:54:02,760 --> 01:54:06,080 Speaker 1: shows are actually sold out. But you will be at 2147 01:54:06,200 --> 01:54:09,400 Speaker 1: SEF Sketch Best this coming weekend and you'll be doing 2148 01:54:09,720 --> 01:54:11,960 Speaker 1: a behind the Bastard show and you will also be 2149 01:54:12,000 --> 01:54:20,519 Speaker 1: doing Francesca Fiorentini, Yes, Orentini's The Bituation Room Show. 2150 01:54:20,640 --> 01:54:26,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, great franchise is great Internet machine episode. 2151 01:54:28,880 --> 01:54:29,559 Speaker 2: Rite something? 2152 01:54:30,320 --> 01:54:30,519 Speaker 1: Why? 2153 01:54:30,640 --> 01:54:30,840 Speaker 2: Why? 2154 01:54:30,920 --> 01:54:31,120 Speaker 5: Yes? 2155 01:54:31,280 --> 01:54:34,400 Speaker 1: Robert? Is a week from when we are recording this? 2156 01:54:34,520 --> 01:54:37,880 Speaker 2: All right, Well, we will finish recording the Andrew Taite 2157 01:54:37,920 --> 01:54:40,640 Speaker 2: episodes and then I will figure out what the fuck 2158 01:54:40,680 --> 01:54:43,480 Speaker 2: I'm doing for this live show that apparently a bunch 2159 01:54:43,520 --> 01:54:46,480 Speaker 2: of you assholes have decided to show up at God 2160 01:54:46,600 --> 01:54:50,000 Speaker 2: damn you. Thank you all for buying tickets Before we 2161 01:54:50,040 --> 01:54:52,640 Speaker 2: close out, I want to thank again April Clark and 2162 01:54:52,720 --> 01:54:56,640 Speaker 2: Grace Freud of Girl God the Girl Got Podcast, both 2163 01:54:56,640 --> 01:54:59,560 Speaker 2: great comedians. They have an upcoming show at JFO Vancouver 2164 01:54:59,600 --> 01:55:01,920 Speaker 2: on fifth You Worry twenty fifth. People can get tickets 2165 01:55:01,920 --> 01:55:05,400 Speaker 2: for that at Girlgodshow dot com. They were on the 2166 01:55:05,480 --> 01:55:08,440 Speaker 2: early version of part of this, but I had an 2167 01:55:08,480 --> 01:55:10,920 Speaker 2: emergency and we had to bounce, and now we are 2168 01:55:10,960 --> 01:55:12,960 Speaker 2: recording this late at night because it is the only 2169 01:55:13,040 --> 01:55:14,680 Speaker 2: way that we can make this show work in a 2170 01:55:14,680 --> 01:55:18,160 Speaker 2: way that is we are contractually obligated to. So thank 2171 01:55:18,520 --> 01:55:21,440 Speaker 2: you April and Grace, Thank you, Ian and Sophie for 2172 01:55:21,560 --> 01:55:24,280 Speaker 2: being guests on my show last minute, and. 2173 01:55:25,200 --> 01:55:29,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're fucking welcome. Robert, thank you, thank you. 2174 01:55:29,680 --> 01:55:32,960 Speaker 2: Thank you. Everyone else can go to hell though. 2175 01:55:36,600 --> 01:55:39,320 Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. 2176 01:55:39,640 --> 01:55:42,280 Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 2177 01:55:42,360 --> 01:55:46,320 Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 2178 01:55:46,400 --> 01:55:49,560 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the 2179 01:55:49,560 --> 01:55:53,640 Speaker 1: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday 2180 01:55:53,720 --> 01:55:57,400 Speaker 1: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash 2181 01:55:57,560 --> 01:56:01,240 Speaker 1: At Behind the Bastards