WEBVTT - How to Embrace the Nuance in Relationships 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:05.800 Hey fam, Hello sunshine. 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:08.119 Today on the bright side. If you've been struggling with 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:11.399 how to have those tough conversations with your family, or 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:13.600 maybe you've got people in your life you just can't 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:16.640 see eye to eye with, we have got you. Today 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:18.920 is the show for you. Joining us is Britt Barren. 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:21.720 She's a pastor and a master of nuance who's giving 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:24.000 us the tools to talk it through and find a 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:27.080 little more common ground with the ones we love. It's Monday, 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:29.320 February third. I'm Danielle Robe and. 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:31.680 I'm Simone Boyce, and this is the bright Side from 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:33.360 Hello Sunshine. 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:38.080 All Right, Simone, it's on my mind Monday. What's on 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:38.760 your mind today? 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:42.040 Girl? Well, we're starting a new month. I still have 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:45.120 that new year energy coursing through me. I get super 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:47.479 introspective this time of year, which I'm sure you do too, 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:49.559 just thinking about like where you are, where you want 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:53.640 to be. And I came across this article in the 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.480 Washington Post that really made an impact on me. It's 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.760 all about this idea of self continuity, the link between 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:02.080 who who you are and then who you expect to be. 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:04.880 Ooh, what is the difference? 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:08.600 Okay, Well, to start the Washington Post piece says that 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:12.119 often when we look back at our former selves, we 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:15.360 might kind of cringe at how we once acted. Maybe 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:18.120 we were immature, maybe we reacted poorly to something that 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.759 happened to us. But actually the research shows us that 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:25.840 a sense of coherence and kind of respect or reverence 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.520 for our past and our present selves can help with 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:31.840 mental health and becoming emotionally resilient. 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.639 Are you saying that those emails I sent in twenty 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:40.520 seventeen that feel incredibly cringey I need to look at 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:41.039 as just. 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:42.120 Part of my journey. 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:44.080 Is that what's happening here. 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:47.480 The fact that you're still thinking about it actually shows 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:50.560 signs of emotional resilience and that you do have this 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:54.280 healthy sense of self continuity. And I am the exact 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:57.080 same way I ruminate on my most embarrassing moments. This 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:01.920 is like my hobby. I'm really encouraged. I'm really encouraged 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:03.080 by this research you. 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:05.120 So it's such a funny moment in your interview with 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:06.080 Esa about. 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:09.440 That this is the This is exactly what comes to mind. 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:11.360 And in the interview with Esa, I tell her this 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:14.440 story about how I was like so embarrassed, like in 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:17.840 this instant of social awkwardness, and I keep replaying it 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:21.160 in my mind. But apparently this is healthy. Apparently my 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:23.079 rumination is healthy. At least that's what I'm going to 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:26.720 tell myself. But I will say, Danielle, one of my 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:32.160 favorite parts of this article is this suggestion to practice 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:34.760 writing a letter to your future self, that that can 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:40.160 actually be a way to better understand this self continuity idea. 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:42.120 My therapist just had me do this. I had to 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:44.720 write a letter to Danielle in five years. 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.359 That is so funny to me because I have felt 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:50.639 like burdened by this idea that I need to write 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:52.600 a letter to my future self not five years out, 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.120 but like a year from now, because I want to 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:56.840 make sure I'm still living by my values. 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:59.560 Then well that's nice. And also you can start with 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.160 chet and then rewrite it in your own words. 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:05.560 You did, you didn't actually write it. 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:07.040 I needed a starting point. 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:08.280 I was like five years. 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:10.240 Who knows so much happens in a month. 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.280 The second half of this exercise is actually writing a 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:17.520 letter back from the future self you want to be Yeah, 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:20.400 kind of mind blowing, right, And I was surprised to 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:24.000 learn that there's actually research around this practice. In one 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:27.919 study conducted with high school students, letter writing to your 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:31.440 future self lowered anxiety, fostered a greater sense of connection 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.560 to your future self, and it also increased these student's 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:38.760 desire to study harder and reach their goals. 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:43.120 I actually I really agree with that. There's all these 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:45.440 studies that say that people that write down their goals 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:46.600 accomplish more of them. 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:50.360 What did you feel like you gained from this exercise? 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:52.000 I had. 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:59.080 It actually made me very hopeful and it felt exciting, 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:03.160 like it gave me that spark of possibility. And one 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:05.400 of my things this year was trying to follow the spark. 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:06.760 Are you gonna do this? 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:10.920 Yes, as soon as I find the time, I'm gonna 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:11.200 do it. 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:14.200 Yeah. Do it in Jamaica. 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:16.040 No, I want to. 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:18.760 I want to actually like kind of like sit down 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.760 and journal and like be in the right headspace for me. 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:28.960 It's it's about making sure that as busy as life 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.279 gets and as busy as work gets, that I'm still 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:36.159 like living by the values that I committed to a 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:42.120 few years ago. And yeah, just not letting things sort 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:43.960 of like eclipse. 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.120 That is it too personal to ask what values? 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:50.200 Like? What do you mean values not at all values 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:53.359 of just being present with my family. That's that's the 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.240 main thing, you know, being present with my husband and 0:04:56.279 --> 0:05:00.960 my kids. And it's really like an exercise for me 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:05.640 to keep my ambition and ego in check because I 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:08.279 lived and worked for so long where I kind of 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:10.840 just let those things run out ahead of me without 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:14.320 actually being intentional about how I wanted to live my life. 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:19.080 That's really really nice. Yeah, I like how you're framing 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:21.160 it in terms of values too, because you really don't 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:23.560 know where things will go necessarily, but you can always 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:26.480 live by that integrity exactly. 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:31.560 And it's like best case scenario, things do go, you know, 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:33.880 in a direction that I'm super happy with, but like 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:36.680 there's a lot that comes with that, you know, And 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:42.320 sometimes our greatest goals or dreams can also be distractions 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.720 too from things that we need to address or confront 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:47.520 in our lives. 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:51.800 I'll never forget. At the Oscars, after Will Smith had 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:57.360 his moment of you know, and Denzel Washington went up 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.279 to him and said, the devil comes for you your 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:02.520 highest moment, Yes, and that is. 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:06.840 Exactly what it is. It's really true. Yeah, you're very 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.440 vulnerable at that summit. Well, I think Another element of 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:14.720 this conversation Danielle is surrounding yourself with people who can 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:19.440 help you live out that self continuity and that accountability 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.480 that you need to reach your future self. And when 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:24.400 I think of the people in my life who do 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:28.080 that for me, my friend Britt Baron is someone who 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:34.200 comes to mind. She is always thinking about perspective, about integrity, 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:38.320 about nuance, about character, and she's going to be sharing 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:39.960 some of that journey with us today. 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.680 She's a pastor turned author and a keynote speaker. In 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.240 her first book, Worth It chronicles her journey as a 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:49.600 queer woman growing up in the church, becoming a pastor, 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.039 and then ultimately choosing a new path, which is a 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:54.120 really interesting journey. 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:58.960 Yeah, that experience was I think she would be okay 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:03.039 with me saying, you know, life altering, and it really 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:06.359 inspired her to think more deeply about the importance of 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:09.840 preserving relationships with family and friends, even when it feels 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:12.480 like there's nothing left for us to preserve. 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.680 Her latest book, Do You Still Talk To Grandma? 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.080 Is for anyone feeling disappointed by the people that they love, 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:21.840 or for anyone who struggles to connect with those loved 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:24.360 ones who may be on opposite sides of an issue. 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.320 Sound familiar to anybody. You're not going to. 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.680 Want to miss this conversation. Britt truly could be the 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.200 key to unlocking the transformation we want. 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:35.440 That's after the break, Stay with. 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:48.120 Us, Welcome to the bright side. I'm so happy to 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.840 be here. You guys are giggling because I'm very good 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:54.200 friends with Britt. She's like a family member to me. 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.240 And it's so funny whenever you take someone out of 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.200 that environment and bring them into your professional environment, like. 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.920 We like, looks Simone at work. Oh yeah, we're formally 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:04.640 this is John Fancy and Fumal. 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:10.280 We should explain how we met Ooh yes, okay, we 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:12.440 met in the trenches. We did. 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:17.200 We met on a wellness retreat that I knew going 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.200 in what the wellness meant, and I knew that we 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.520 were in for some like deep internal work. But all 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:25.720 we got on the bus. This is like my favorite 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.200 memory of you. We got on the bus and everyone's 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:30.720 like meeting and talking about and I knew what we 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:33.480 were in for. And Simone got up and was like, 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:37.199 does anyone know about SPA treatments? That sounds about right. 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:38.040 Little did I know? 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:40.360 I was in for group therapy camp where we would 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.360 be weeping together for the next four days. But it 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:46.280 was a magical experience and so lucky to count you 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.280 as a friend now because I turned to you all 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.679 the time for wisdom and now we get to open 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.160 it up to our bright side busties. So I want 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:55.240 to explore your backstory a little bit. How did you 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:59.400 go from pastor to author and educator. I grew up 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:04.040 very religious in the Evangelical Church, and then like just 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:06.880 fully committed, went to Christian College, went to Christian grad 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:09.400 school like was in the world, and when I was 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:11.920 only twenty six, which at the time I felt grown, 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:14.640 but now I'm like a child. I became a pastor 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.800 to mega church, and so you like learn all of 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:21.360 these skills and all of these things that you become 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.280 really good at your job, but they don't necessarily feel transferable. 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:26.040 Like I've never walked up and been like, can I 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:26.920 run your tech company? 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:28.480 I used to be a manature chest they and like, 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:32.599 oh amazing, right, right. So coming out of that environment, 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:34.880 I found myself just sort of looking back on my 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:37.800 life and being like, what skills have I acquired? And 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.480 obviously I spent a long time talking like I was 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:42.520 a kid in school where every single report card was 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:44.640 talk too much, talks about no. I'm like, this is 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:47.200 why we were friends. Yeah, and now like, can't stop me. 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:49.800 If I found a way to make mine I get paid, 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:52.800 I'll talk all right, Oh bake, I'll talk, I'll do 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:56.880 a video. And then I just my own identity as 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:58.920 a person of color. I grew up in predominantly white 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:04.640 environments and worked in predominant white environments, and I was 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:06.240 a pastor at the church. I was trying to do 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.440 more and more technic things, and so sort of like 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:12.280 gained a lot of skills around talking and like breaking 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.800 down these big ideas around diversity, equity, inclusion and making 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:20.280 it feel like tangible and like attainable, and so I 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:25.120 just parlayed that into a career. Very cool. The non 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.960 transferable skill is so real, Yeah, trying to find a 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:30.240 transfer somewhere. 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:35.800 There was a really big life event that happened, and 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.560 I want to hear how that changed the trajectory of 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.880 your career as both a pastor and a speaker. You 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:45.240 met your wife when you were working at that same church, 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:49.200 and when you both came out and shared the status 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:52.520 of the relationship with your bosses at the church, you 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:56.080 weren't met with the reception that you wanted. What happened 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:56.600 from there? 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:59.000 I spent a lot of my life just being pretty 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:02.720 unaware of my own sexuality, right, which isn't like a 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:05.920 wild thing. I think when you grow up in the church, 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:08.800 right if, even if you're not queer, you're just sort 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:09.880 of like do do do? 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:12.400 Right, Like, it's best to just not address that at all. Well, 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:14.800 because there's so much shame around just the idea of 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.200 sex exactly. So you're like, I'm like, okay, I'm doing 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:18.920 a kind of a good job, just like nothinking. Really, 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:20.360 I just put it on my head. 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:22.800 But then I met Sammy and I was like whoa 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:26.680 like and instantly fell in love and was like, this 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:28.959 is okay, my life makes so much sense now, you 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:31.000 know what I mean? Why was pil Dockey camp meaning 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.120 my favorite week of the year because I'm gay? So 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:37.440 I come to this realization and fall in love. And 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:39.240 we were both working at the church. She was the 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.680 creative rector and I was a pastor, and we knew 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:48.160 it was not affirming, so meaning it was not LGBTQ affirming. Yes, 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:50.200 meaning you couldn't be gay and work there or be 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:53.240 in leadership. And no, I'm not talking about Alabama in 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.840 the sixties. This was a church in la in like 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:59.720 twenty fifteen. And so when I came out, I knew 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:04.800 that choosing Sammy and choosing myself and choosing sort of 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:08.200 to love and be loved and had that experience, I 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:11.880 knew that would mean dismantling the world I had built 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.160 a career in. And that was really hard for me because, 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:17.240 like I said earlier, I was thinking around, like, what 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.240 am I gonna do? What job could I have? What 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:22.520 life could I have? Because it wasn't just my job, 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:25.360 it was also my network and comedian friends. Everything was 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:28.960 wrapped up in church. And so I think having that 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.600 experience and realizing that ultimately like I had to learn 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.679 that just because something's hard doesn't mean it's bad. And 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:38.080 so even though that was the most beautiful experience in 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.400 my life, it was incredibly difficult, but something I value 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.480 now because I have been able to build a career 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:46.480 that is authentically my own. 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:50.200 You've referred to yourself as a master of nuance. How 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:55.040 did you discover nuance in navigating these challenging relationships that 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:56.600 maybe weren't challenging before. 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:01.720 I mean, I think one giant lesson that was really 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.760 important for me to learn and went on to influence 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:06.440 a ton of the work, even though today I was 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:11.439 leaving that experience that became very hurtful, but not being 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.440 able to throw the whole thing out, So leaving and 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.200 being like, oh my gosh, that was probably one of 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.480 the hardest experiences of my entire life and left me 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:22.400 with some deep trauma parts of which I unpacked a 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:25.000 trauma camp. But then I was like, oh, but there 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.520 were also these beautiful moments that I had, and then 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.760 there was like good things too, and so I really 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:33.160 wrestled with like, Okay, which one's true? Was it a 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.480 good experience or was it bad? And then find myself 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.240 being like, oh, I think two things can be true, 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:40.200 and if more than one thing can be true, Like, 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.160 how does that impact how I view everything else? 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.720 What you're saying is so hard to do, Like, I'm 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.000 looking really deep inside myself right now, and I don't 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.720 think I'm good at that, being able to say I 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:56.480 have issues with this person or experience or thing, but 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:57.960 that doesn't mean all. 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:01.480 Of it is bad. No, it's really hot it's really hard. 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:04.040 It's really hard, and it requires a lot of practice. 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:06.720 But at the same time, I'm like, I think we've 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:11.319 been trained to have our brains take the easiest route, 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:13.960 which is just all good or all bad, all one 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:16.120 or the other right, which is what we're seeing right now, 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:18.800 happen like everywhere. Right you see a person, You're like, 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:20.560 I just need to know one thing about them so 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:22.680 I could decide the totality of them. 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:25.200 I'm so glad you brought that up, because I want 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:27.200 to talk about your book. Do you still talk to Grandma? 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:29.800 It's a follow up to your first book, Worth It? 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:33.680 And it feels like this is the book of the 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:37.440 moment right now, because as we scroll through our feeds, 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:39.800 we are just bombarded with what you're talking about, this 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.520 binary thinking. This group is right, that group's wrong, this 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.240 person's good, this person's bad, And it feels like we 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:47.720 constantly have to be intentional and fight just to be 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:49.600 able to think in the gray, just to be able 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.080 to imagine in that gray space. When did you first 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:55.880 realize that the world wasn't quite as neatly as divided 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.160 as we've been told, And what was your first step 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.800 and just mantling the binary thinking. 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:03.880 I mean, I always say the work of this book 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.280 started in my own therapy journey. I was in therapy 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:11.000 because I was unpacking my relationship with my parents. And 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:13.720 I grew up really close to my parents and like 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.920 oddly like protective of them. But every time I was 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:19.880 in therapy and I would mention something that was kind 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:21.640 of disappointing, like I wish my parents would have done 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.440 this differently here like this, I would immediately be like, 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.680 but they're really good people, and my favorites was like, sorry, 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.760 do you think if you say something about them that 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.840 was disappointing or her full or you wish she had that, 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:36.480 it's erases every good thing you've ever said about them? 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:38.440 And I was like, yes, I do, I do believe that. 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:41.560 I don't believe that. And that was the beginning of, 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.040 like so much of my personal work that I then 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:48.600 started to like notice everywhere I saw it, and now 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.320 I see it like in social media, I see it 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:53.400 more than I've ever seen it, and where it's like, no, 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.040 only one thing is true and I'm going to figure 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:56.600 out which one. 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.880 It's particularly hard with parental relationships, though, because I think 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:03.800 we feel like a sense of duty and gratitude, even 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:05.560 if it was a challenging relationship. 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:07.880 Yeah, because then you're like, but they did everything for me. 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.080 But then again, that's like us being like it's one 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:13.400 or the other, but it really can't be both, right, 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:15.880 you know, I'm like so grateful. My parents are incredible. 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:20.640 Were you raised in a home that was that stereotypical 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:25.160 nineties authoritative, fear based parenting or was it different from that? 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:29.240 No, I wouldn't say that. My parents were so committed 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.840 to being parents, and I mean at the best way, 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.240 and so they were. We had a good relationship and 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:37.880 they were very like open wooming, and that's why it's 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:40.200 hard for me to talk about things that I might 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:42.560 be disappointed or have our time with. We were very 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:46.120 Christian though, like we were in it. Yeah. Yeah, I 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:46.760 have to tell you. 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.320 Some of the most intriguing parts of your work to 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.240 me are or having to do with the idea of 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:57.600 not letting relationships go. We hear, particularly online if you're 0:16:57.640 --> 0:16:59.960 a TikTok GIRLI you hear this a lot that if 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:04.280 a relationship does not serve you, let it go. You 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:08.479 say that you believe quite the opposite, even in the 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:13.119 face of fundamental disagreements, close relationships are worth preserving. Is 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:14.439 that based on experience? 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:19.399 Yes? Absolutely, yeah, I think we all have to be honest, 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:23.719 like probably since twenty sixteen, have people in our life 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.920 that we have very close relationships and a deep love 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:32.479 for and hold deep disappointment. And so I think that 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:34.840 first happened with me when I left the church, and 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:39.640 I'm like finding myself in this identity. And I have 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.400 a lot of people who I love deeply who still 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.439 believe that it was wrong or that the Bible says something, 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:49.560 or that God like still hold this idea, this very 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.840 like problematic idea. And I think what's hard for me 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.919 is online if someone says something you don't like, I'm like, 0:17:57.640 --> 0:17:59.840 oh my gosh, Blake Lively tweeted something and I didn't 0:17:59.880 --> 0:18:02.280 like it. I'm like, oh, I just unfollow her, like 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:04.280 this is in conset question to me. I don't know her, 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:05.960 like I don't know. But then we get in the 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:08.080 habit of doing that where it's like and this is 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:10.080 why the book is called Use with Grandma, because I'm like, 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:13.639 we have grandparents and parents and cousins and partners and 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:16.720 college roommates who say one thing and then we're like, oh, well, I. 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.680 Could just be done with you now, and I'm like, wow, 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.479 I hear the Internet's voice in my head. Is you're talking, 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:30.160 They're saying yes. And when somebody voted for someone who 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:34.120 denies my right to exist, just as an example, how 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.480 can I still maintain that relationship? I actually really agree 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.560 with you, but I'm curious what you think makes it 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:41.440 worth fighting for. 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:44.520 I've gotten a ton of pushback and appreciate it, right, 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.120 because there always is a line, right, there are times 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:49.880 where you're like, okay for your own safety and goodness. 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:54.320 But I think what makes it worth fighting for is 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:56.879 our connection to other people is why we do this, 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.679 why we're here, and our ability to hold nuance and 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:04.760 to hold empathy in those relationships does more for us 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:06.359 most of the time than it even does for those 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.000 other people. And if our goal is to only stand 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.520 in a circle with people who agree with us one 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:13.199 hundred percent of the time, we are going to end 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.680 up standing alone. And that is probably the worst place 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.040 to end up standing up, because we need other people, 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:20.719 and so we have to take a realistic look at 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.760 our expectations for relationship. I'm like, I keep joking that 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:25.480 I was talking to this guy and he was like 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:28.919 red in the face, telling me how he's not going 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:33.280 to his family's Thanksgiving because they're not like going to 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.439 do vegan Thanksgiving and she's a vegan and he's like 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.359 so serious about it, and he's like, they're animals, they 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:40.920 are scenting and beans. We know this, the research is 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:42.280 out there. He's like going on and on all these 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:44.760 vegan facts and he's like, my family doesn't respect that. 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:46.560 They don't respect me, Like I'm out, you know, And 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:48.199 I'm like that's crazy, you know, And now I just 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:49.320 like how to ask. I was like, how long are 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:51.280 you going to begin? You know? He was like a year, 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.520 and I'm like, okay, listen. At the end of the day, 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:58.240 like we have backstory and backstory and contact with people 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:00.240 in our life that are we are willing to grow 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:05.440 away over conversations that haven't even had time to marinate. 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.199 We show our parents one tweet and then if they 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:10.920 don't radically change their entire political identity that they've had 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:13.639