Speaker 1: Hey fam, Hello sunshine.
Speaker 2: Today on the bright side. If you've been struggling with
Speaker 2: how to have those tough conversations with your family, or
Speaker 2: maybe you've got people in your life you just can't
Speaker 2: see eye to eye with, we have got you. Today
Speaker 2: is the show for you. Joining us is Britt Barren.
Speaker 2: She's a pastor and a master of nuance who's giving
Speaker 2: us the tools to talk it through and find a
Speaker 2: little more common ground with the ones we love. It's Monday,
Speaker 2: February third. I'm Danielle Robe and.
Speaker 3: I'm Simone Boyce, and this is the bright Side from
Speaker 3: Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 2: All Right, Simone, it's on my mind Monday. What's on
Speaker 2: your mind today?
Speaker 3: Girl? Well, we're starting a new month. I still have
Speaker 3: that new year energy coursing through me. I get super
Speaker 3: introspective this time of year, which I'm sure you do too,
Speaker 3: just thinking about like where you are, where you want
Speaker 3: to be. And I came across this article in the
Speaker 3: Washington Post that really made an impact on me. It's
Speaker 3: all about this idea of self continuity, the link between
Speaker 3: who who you are and then who you expect to be.
Speaker 2: Ooh, what is the difference?
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, to start the Washington Post piece says that
Speaker 3: often when we look back at our former selves, we
Speaker 3: might kind of cringe at how we once acted. Maybe
Speaker 3: we were immature, maybe we reacted poorly to something that
Speaker 3: happened to us. But actually the research shows us that
Speaker 3: a sense of coherence and kind of respect or reverence
Speaker 3: for our past and our present selves can help with
Speaker 3: mental health and becoming emotionally resilient.
Speaker 2: Are you saying that those emails I sent in twenty
Speaker 2: seventeen that feel incredibly cringey I need to look at
Speaker 2: as just.
Speaker 1: Part of my journey.
Speaker 2: Is that what's happening here.
Speaker 3: The fact that you're still thinking about it actually shows
Speaker 3: signs of emotional resilience and that you do have this
Speaker 3: healthy sense of self continuity. And I am the exact
Speaker 3: same way I ruminate on my most embarrassing moments. This
Speaker 3: is like my hobby. I'm really encouraged. I'm really encouraged
Speaker 3: by this research you.
Speaker 2: So it's such a funny moment in your interview with
Speaker 2: Esa about.
Speaker 3: That this is the This is exactly what comes to mind.
Speaker 3: And in the interview with Esa, I tell her this
Speaker 3: story about how I was like so embarrassed, like in
Speaker 3: this instant of social awkwardness, and I keep replaying it
Speaker 3: in my mind. But apparently this is healthy. Apparently my
Speaker 3: rumination is healthy. At least that's what I'm going to
Speaker 3: tell myself. But I will say, Danielle, one of my
Speaker 3: favorite parts of this article is this suggestion to practice
Speaker 3: writing a letter to your future self, that that can
Speaker 3: actually be a way to better understand this self continuity idea.
Speaker 2: My therapist just had me do this. I had to
Speaker 2: write a letter to Danielle in five years.
Speaker 3: That is so funny to me because I have felt
Speaker 3: like burdened by this idea that I need to write
Speaker 3: a letter to my future self not five years out,
Speaker 3: but like a year from now, because I want to
Speaker 3: make sure I'm still living by my values.
Speaker 2: Then well that's nice. And also you can start with
Speaker 2: chet and then rewrite it in your own words.
Speaker 1: You did, you didn't actually write it.
Speaker 2: I needed a starting point.
Speaker 1: I was like five years.
Speaker 2: Who knows so much happens in a month.
Speaker 3: The second half of this exercise is actually writing a
Speaker 3: letter back from the future self you want to be Yeah,
Speaker 3: kind of mind blowing, right, And I was surprised to
Speaker 3: learn that there's actually research around this practice. In one
Speaker 3: study conducted with high school students, letter writing to your
Speaker 3: future self lowered anxiety, fostered a greater sense of connection
Speaker 3: to your future self, and it also increased these student's
Speaker 3: desire to study harder and reach their goals.
Speaker 2: I actually I really agree with that. There's all these
Speaker 2: studies that say that people that write down their goals
Speaker 2: accomplish more of them.
Speaker 1: What did you feel like you gained from this exercise?
Speaker 1: I had.
Speaker 2: It actually made me very hopeful and it felt exciting,
Speaker 2: like it gave me that spark of possibility. And one
Speaker 2: of my things this year was trying to follow the spark.
Speaker 2: Are you gonna do this?
Speaker 3: Yes, as soon as I find the time, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Do it in Jamaica.
Speaker 1: No, I want to.
Speaker 3: I want to actually like kind of like sit down
Speaker 3: and journal and like be in the right headspace for me.
Speaker 3: It's it's about making sure that as busy as life
Speaker 3: gets and as busy as work gets, that I'm still
Speaker 3: like living by the values that I committed to a
Speaker 3: few years ago. And yeah, just not letting things sort
Speaker 3: of like eclipse.
Speaker 2: That is it too personal to ask what values?
Speaker 3: Like? What do you mean values not at all values
Speaker 3: of just being present with my family. That's that's the
Speaker 3: main thing, you know, being present with my husband and
Speaker 3: my kids. And it's really like an exercise for me
Speaker 3: to keep my ambition and ego in check because I
Speaker 3: lived and worked for so long where I kind of
Speaker 3: just let those things run out ahead of me without
Speaker 3: actually being intentional about how I wanted to live my life.
Speaker 2: That's really really nice. Yeah, I like how you're framing
Speaker 2: it in terms of values too, because you really don't
Speaker 2: know where things will go necessarily, but you can always
Speaker 2: live by that integrity exactly.
Speaker 3: And it's like best case scenario, things do go, you know,
Speaker 3: in a direction that I'm super happy with, but like
Speaker 3: there's a lot that comes with that, you know, And
Speaker 3: sometimes our greatest goals or dreams can also be distractions
Speaker 3: too from things that we need to address or confront
Speaker 3: in our lives.
Speaker 2: I'll never forget. At the Oscars, after Will Smith had
Speaker 2: his moment of you know, and Denzel Washington went up
Speaker 2: to him and said, the devil comes for you your
Speaker 2: highest moment, Yes, and that is.
Speaker 3: Exactly what it is. It's really true. Yeah, you're very
Speaker 3: vulnerable at that summit. Well, I think Another element of
Speaker 3: this conversation Danielle is surrounding yourself with people who can
Speaker 3: help you live out that self continuity and that accountability
Speaker 3: that you need to reach your future self. And when
Speaker 3: I think of the people in my life who do
Speaker 3: that for me, my friend Britt Baron is someone who
Speaker 3: comes to mind. She is always thinking about perspective, about integrity,
Speaker 3: about nuance, about character, and she's going to be sharing
Speaker 3: some of that journey with us today.
Speaker 2: She's a pastor turned author and a keynote speaker. In
Speaker 2: her first book, Worth It chronicles her journey as a
Speaker 2: queer woman growing up in the church, becoming a pastor,
Speaker 2: and then ultimately choosing a new path, which is a
Speaker 2: really interesting journey.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that experience was I think she would be okay
Speaker 3: with me saying, you know, life altering, and it really
Speaker 3: inspired her to think more deeply about the importance of
Speaker 3: preserving relationships with family and friends, even when it feels
Speaker 3: like there's nothing left for us to preserve.
Speaker 1: Her latest book, Do You Still Talk To Grandma?
Speaker 3: Is for anyone feeling disappointed by the people that they love,
Speaker 3: or for anyone who struggles to connect with those loved
Speaker 3: ones who may be on opposite sides of an issue.
Speaker 1: Sound familiar to anybody. You're not going to.
Speaker 3: Want to miss this conversation. Britt truly could be the
Speaker 3: key to unlocking the transformation we want.
Speaker 1: That's after the break, Stay with.
Speaker 3: Us, Welcome to the bright side. I'm so happy to
Speaker 3: be here. You guys are giggling because I'm very good
Speaker 3: friends with Britt. She's like a family member to me.
Speaker 3: And it's so funny whenever you take someone out of
Speaker 3: that environment and bring them into your professional environment, like.
Speaker 1: We like, looks Simone at work. Oh yeah, we're formally
Speaker 1: this is John Fancy and Fumal.
Speaker 3: We should explain how we met Ooh yes, okay, we
Speaker 3: met in the trenches. We did.
Speaker 1: We met on a wellness retreat that I knew going
Speaker 1: in what the wellness meant, and I knew that we
Speaker 1: were in for some like deep internal work. But all
Speaker 1: we got on the bus. This is like my favorite
Speaker 1: memory of you. We got on the bus and everyone's
Speaker 1: like meeting and talking about and I knew what we
Speaker 1: were in for. And Simone got up and was like,
Speaker 1: does anyone know about SPA treatments? That sounds about right.
Speaker 1: Little did I know?
Speaker 3: I was in for group therapy camp where we would
Speaker 3: be weeping together for the next four days. But it
Speaker 3: was a magical experience and so lucky to count you
Speaker 3: as a friend now because I turned to you all
Speaker 3: the time for wisdom and now we get to open
Speaker 3: it up to our bright side busties. So I want
Speaker 3: to explore your backstory a little bit. How did you
Speaker 3: go from pastor to author and educator. I grew up
Speaker 3: very religious in the Evangelical Church, and then like just
Speaker 3: fully committed, went to Christian College, went to Christian grad
Speaker 3: school like was in the world, and when I was
Speaker 3: only twenty six, which at the time I felt grown,
Speaker 3: but now I'm like a child. I became a pastor
Speaker 3: to mega church, and so you like learn all of
Speaker 3: these skills and all of these things that you become
Speaker 3: really good at your job, but they don't necessarily feel transferable.
Speaker 3: Like I've never walked up and been like, can I
Speaker 3: run your tech company?
Speaker 1: I used to be a manature chest they and like,
Speaker 1: oh amazing, right, right. So coming out of that environment,
Speaker 1: I found myself just sort of looking back on my
Speaker 1: life and being like, what skills have I acquired? And
Speaker 1: obviously I spent a long time talking like I was
Speaker 1: a kid in school where every single report card was
Speaker 1: talk too much, talks about no. I'm like, this is
Speaker 1: why we were friends. Yeah, and now like, can't stop me.
Speaker 1: If I found a way to make mine I get paid,
Speaker 1: I'll talk all right, Oh bake, I'll talk, I'll do
Speaker 1: a video. And then I just my own identity as
Speaker 1: a person of color. I grew up in predominantly white
Speaker 1: environments and worked in predominant white environments, and I was
Speaker 1: a pastor at the church. I was trying to do
Speaker 1: more and more technic things, and so sort of like
Speaker 1: gained a lot of skills around talking and like breaking
Speaker 1: down these big ideas around diversity, equity, inclusion and making
Speaker 1: it feel like tangible and like attainable, and so I
Speaker 1: just parlayed that into a career. Very cool. The non
Speaker 1: transferable skill is so real, Yeah, trying to find a
Speaker 1: transfer somewhere.
Speaker 3: There was a really big life event that happened, and
Speaker 3: I want to hear how that changed the trajectory of
Speaker 3: your career as both a pastor and a speaker. You
Speaker 3: met your wife when you were working at that same church,
Speaker 3: and when you both came out and shared the status
Speaker 3: of the relationship with your bosses at the church, you
Speaker 3: weren't met with the reception that you wanted. What happened
Speaker 3: from there?
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of my life just being pretty
Speaker 1: unaware of my own sexuality, right, which isn't like a
Speaker 1: wild thing. I think when you grow up in the church,
Speaker 1: right if, even if you're not queer, you're just sort
Speaker 1: of like do do do?
Speaker 3: Right, Like, it's best to just not address that at all. Well,
Speaker 3: because there's so much shame around just the idea of
Speaker 3: sex exactly. So you're like, I'm like, okay, I'm doing
Speaker 3: a kind of a good job, just like nothinking. Really,
Speaker 3: I just put it on my head.
Speaker 1: But then I met Sammy and I was like whoa
Speaker 1: like and instantly fell in love and was like, this
Speaker 1: is okay, my life makes so much sense now, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Why was pil Dockey camp meaning
Speaker 1: my favorite week of the year because I'm gay? So
Speaker 1: I come to this realization and fall in love. And
Speaker 1: we were both working at the church. She was the
Speaker 1: creative rector and I was a pastor, and we knew
Speaker 1: it was not affirming, so meaning it was not LGBTQ affirming. Yes,
Speaker 1: meaning you couldn't be gay and work there or be
Speaker 1: in leadership. And no, I'm not talking about Alabama in
Speaker 1: the sixties. This was a church in la in like
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. And so when I came out, I knew
Speaker 1: that choosing Sammy and choosing myself and choosing sort of
Speaker 1: to love and be loved and had that experience, I
Speaker 1: knew that would mean dismantling the world I had built
Speaker 1: a career in. And that was really hard for me because,
Speaker 1: like I said earlier, I was thinking around, like, what
Speaker 1: am I gonna do? What job could I have? What
Speaker 1: life could I have? Because it wasn't just my job,
Speaker 1: it was also my network and comedian friends. Everything was
Speaker 1: wrapped up in church. And so I think having that
Speaker 1: experience and realizing that ultimately like I had to learn
Speaker 1: that just because something's hard doesn't mean it's bad. And
Speaker 1: so even though that was the most beautiful experience in
Speaker 1: my life, it was incredibly difficult, but something I value
Speaker 1: now because I have been able to build a career
Speaker 1: that is authentically my own.
Speaker 2: You've referred to yourself as a master of nuance. How
Speaker 2: did you discover nuance in navigating these challenging relationships that
Speaker 2: maybe weren't challenging before.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think one giant lesson that was really
Speaker 1: important for me to learn and went on to influence
Speaker 1: a ton of the work, even though today I was
Speaker 1: leaving that experience that became very hurtful, but not being
Speaker 1: able to throw the whole thing out, So leaving and
Speaker 1: being like, oh my gosh, that was probably one of
Speaker 1: the hardest experiences of my entire life and left me
Speaker 1: with some deep trauma parts of which I unpacked a
Speaker 1: trauma camp. But then I was like, oh, but there
Speaker 1: were also these beautiful moments that I had, and then
Speaker 1: there was like good things too, and so I really
Speaker 1: wrestled with like, Okay, which one's true? Was it a
Speaker 1: good experience or was it bad? And then find myself
Speaker 1: being like, oh, I think two things can be true,
Speaker 1: and if more than one thing can be true, Like,
Speaker 1: how does that impact how I view everything else?
Speaker 3: What you're saying is so hard to do, Like, I'm
Speaker 3: looking really deep inside myself right now, and I don't
Speaker 3: think I'm good at that, being able to say I
Speaker 3: have issues with this person or experience or thing, but
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean all.
Speaker 1: Of it is bad. No, it's really hot it's really hard.
Speaker 1: It's really hard, and it requires a lot of practice.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I'm like, I think we've
Speaker 1: been trained to have our brains take the easiest route,
Speaker 1: which is just all good or all bad, all one
Speaker 1: or the other right, which is what we're seeing right now,
Speaker 1: happen like everywhere. Right you see a person, You're like,
Speaker 1: I just need to know one thing about them so
Speaker 1: I could decide the totality of them.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you brought that up, because I want
Speaker 3: to talk about your book. Do you still talk to Grandma?
Speaker 3: It's a follow up to your first book, Worth It?
Speaker 3: And it feels like this is the book of the
Speaker 3: moment right now, because as we scroll through our feeds,
Speaker 3: we are just bombarded with what you're talking about, this
Speaker 3: binary thinking. This group is right, that group's wrong, this
Speaker 3: person's good, this person's bad, And it feels like we
Speaker 3: constantly have to be intentional and fight just to be
Speaker 3: able to think in the gray, just to be able
Speaker 3: to imagine in that gray space. When did you first
Speaker 3: realize that the world wasn't quite as neatly as divided
Speaker 3: as we've been told, And what was your first step
Speaker 3: and just mantling the binary thinking.
Speaker 1: I mean, I always say the work of this book
Speaker 1: started in my own therapy journey. I was in therapy
Speaker 1: because I was unpacking my relationship with my parents. And
Speaker 1: I grew up really close to my parents and like
Speaker 1: oddly like protective of them. But every time I was
Speaker 1: in therapy and I would mention something that was kind
Speaker 1: of disappointing, like I wish my parents would have done
Speaker 1: this differently here like this, I would immediately be like,
Speaker 1: but they're really good people, and my favorites was like, sorry,
Speaker 1: do you think if you say something about them that
Speaker 1: was disappointing or her full or you wish she had that,
Speaker 1: it's erases every good thing you've ever said about them?
Speaker 1: And I was like, yes, I do, I do believe that.
Speaker 1: I don't believe that. And that was the beginning of,
Speaker 1: like so much of my personal work that I then
Speaker 1: started to like notice everywhere I saw it, and now
Speaker 1: I see it like in social media, I see it
Speaker 1: more than I've ever seen it, and where it's like, no,
Speaker 1: only one thing is true and I'm going to figure
Speaker 1: out which one.
Speaker 2: It's particularly hard with parental relationships, though, because I think
Speaker 2: we feel like a sense of duty and gratitude, even
Speaker 2: if it was a challenging relationship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because then you're like, but they did everything for me.
Speaker 1: But then again, that's like us being like it's one
Speaker 1: or the other, but it really can't be both, right,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm like so grateful. My parents are incredible.
Speaker 3: Were you raised in a home that was that stereotypical
Speaker 3: nineties authoritative, fear based parenting or was it different from that?
Speaker 1: No, I wouldn't say that. My parents were so committed
Speaker 1: to being parents, and I mean at the best way,
Speaker 1: and so they were. We had a good relationship and
Speaker 1: they were very like open wooming, and that's why it's
Speaker 1: hard for me to talk about things that I might
Speaker 1: be disappointed or have our time with. We were very
Speaker 1: Christian though, like we were in it. Yeah. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: have to tell you.
Speaker 2: Some of the most intriguing parts of your work to
Speaker 2: me are or having to do with the idea of
Speaker 2: not letting relationships go. We hear, particularly online if you're
Speaker 2: a TikTok GIRLI you hear this a lot that if
Speaker 2: a relationship does not serve you, let it go. You
Speaker 2: say that you believe quite the opposite, even in the
Speaker 2: face of fundamental disagreements, close relationships are worth preserving. Is
Speaker 2: that based on experience?
Speaker 1: Yes? Absolutely, yeah, I think we all have to be honest,
Speaker 1: like probably since twenty sixteen, have people in our life
Speaker 1: that we have very close relationships and a deep love
Speaker 1: for and hold deep disappointment. And so I think that
Speaker 1: first happened with me when I left the church, and
Speaker 1: I'm like finding myself in this identity. And I have
Speaker 1: a lot of people who I love deeply who still
Speaker 1: believe that it was wrong or that the Bible says something,
Speaker 1: or that God like still hold this idea, this very
Speaker 1: like problematic idea. And I think what's hard for me
Speaker 1: is online if someone says something you don't like, I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, Blake Lively tweeted something and I didn't
Speaker 1: like it. I'm like, oh, I just unfollow her, like
Speaker 1: this is in conset question to me. I don't know her,
Speaker 1: like I don't know. But then we get in the
Speaker 1: habit of doing that where it's like and this is
Speaker 1: why the book is called Use with Grandma, because I'm like,
Speaker 1: we have grandparents and parents and cousins and partners and
Speaker 1: college roommates who say one thing and then we're like, oh, well, I.
Speaker 2: Could just be done with you now, and I'm like, wow,
Speaker 2: I hear the Internet's voice in my head. Is you're talking,
Speaker 2: They're saying yes. And when somebody voted for someone who
Speaker 2: denies my right to exist, just as an example, how
Speaker 2: can I still maintain that relationship? I actually really agree
Speaker 2: with you, but I'm curious what you think makes it
Speaker 2: worth fighting for.
Speaker 1: I've gotten a ton of pushback and appreciate it, right,
Speaker 1: because there always is a line, right, there are times
Speaker 1: where you're like, okay for your own safety and goodness.
Speaker 1: But I think what makes it worth fighting for is
Speaker 1: our connection to other people is why we do this,
Speaker 1: why we're here, and our ability to hold nuance and
Speaker 1: to hold empathy in those relationships does more for us
Speaker 1: most of the time than it even does for those
Speaker 1: other people. And if our goal is to only stand
Speaker 1: in a circle with people who agree with us one
Speaker 1: hundred percent of the time, we are going to end
Speaker 1: up standing alone. And that is probably the worst place
Speaker 1: to end up standing up, because we need other people,
Speaker 1: and so we have to take a realistic look at
Speaker 1: our expectations for relationship. I'm like, I keep joking that
Speaker 1: I was talking to this guy and he was like
Speaker 1: red in the face, telling me how he's not going
Speaker 1: to his family's Thanksgiving because they're not like going to
Speaker 1: do vegan Thanksgiving and she's a vegan and he's like
Speaker 1: so serious about it, and he's like, they're animals, they
Speaker 1: are scenting and beans. We know this, the research is
Speaker 1: out there. He's like going on and on all these
Speaker 1: vegan facts and he's like, my family doesn't respect that.
Speaker 1: They don't respect me, Like I'm out, you know, And
Speaker 1: I'm like that's crazy, you know, And now I just
Speaker 1: like how to ask. I was like, how long are
Speaker 1: you going to begin? You know? He was like a year,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, okay, listen. At the end of the day,
Speaker 1: like we have backstory and backstory and contact with people
Speaker 1: in our life that are we are willing to grow
Speaker 1: away over conversations that haven't even had time to marinate.
Speaker 1: We show our parents one tweet and then if they
Speaker 1: don't radically change their entire political identity that they've had
Speaker 1: for like decades, then we're like, you don't get it,
Speaker 1: you don't get me, Like I'm gone, And I don't
Speaker 1: think we give enough weight to like the connection and
Speaker 1: to the humanity of the relationships. Not I agree with you.
Speaker 2: I also think some of my most challenging relationships have
Speaker 2: been my greatest teachers.
Speaker 3: M I have a pretty ideologically diverse group of friends
Speaker 3: that you know, are across the spectrum of beliefs, but
Speaker 3: just being honest, Like, sometimes I feel like I'm going
Speaker 3: to be criticized for that in today's society. Like I
Speaker 3: feel like sometimes people are gonna be like, I can't
Speaker 3: believe you hang out with this person because if you
Speaker 3: look at if you look at their views online, they
Speaker 3: are pretty extreme and they're very different from mine. However,
Speaker 3: I have a lot of respect for this person because
Speaker 3: I think they have a lot of integrity, But I
Speaker 3: feel like people would have an issue with that, you know.
Speaker 1: And they probably would and do. And that's where, Gosh,
Speaker 1: one of the things I talk about that like prompted
Speaker 1: me to even set work in this book was like
Speaker 1: my response when we were like waiting for the verdict
Speaker 1: for George Floyd's murder Trap, and I was sitting in
Speaker 1: my house and we're waiting for the verdict and then
Speaker 1: it comes and it's guilty, and I'm like, immediately before
Speaker 1: I did anything else, I picked it up my phone
Speaker 1: and I was like, I need to post about this,
Speaker 1: and so I was like, guilty praising emojis, and then
Speaker 1: I was like, no, should need praise to that. I
Speaker 1: go like and look at another activist online and she
Speaker 1: was like, you shouldn't be celebrating Georgia should be alive.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, oh, take the price praisans out, just guilty,
Speaker 1: and I look at another thing. They're like, don't let
Speaker 1: anyone tell you can't celebrate, like this is a win.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh, okay, praisans are back. And
Speaker 1: then now I go to another page and then they're like,
Speaker 1: this is this is justice. I kinda believe that the
Speaker 1: same you can okay, and then like freaking out and
Speaker 1: I'm like, what is happening? Yeah, Like at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, I think we have a huge where
Speaker 1: we will experiencing something and we will be doing something
Speaker 1: that feels right to us, like this is what I
Speaker 1: want to say. These are the people I feel comfortable
Speaker 1: having friendships with, this is the work I could feel
Speaker 1: downable doing. And then we have everyone else's voice who
Speaker 1: isn't living that experience influencing what we're doing.
Speaker 3: So how do you approach conversation in online spaces now?
Speaker 3: Because you write about a friend of yours who was
Speaker 3: publicly shamed for something that she said online that many
Speaker 3: people perceive to be racist, and you mentioned hearing the
Speaker 3: verdict from the George Floyd trial. What do you say now,
Speaker 3: Because it does feel like it's impossible to serve this
Speaker 3: many masters.
Speaker 1: It is, and so I think you have to decide
Speaker 1: who are you serving, right, and you have to appropriately
Speaker 1: take like appropriately place context and people and feedback. Right.
Speaker 1: Like one of my best friends in the entire world
Speaker 1: called me one time and was like, hey, just so
Speaker 1: you know, like you're not being a good friend. And
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, idially shut down, close the laptop.
Speaker 1: I'm zoned in. I'm listening why this person has been
Speaker 1: in my life for twenty years. Right, So she's like,
Speaker 1: think random DM from lady in Ohio saying I don't
Speaker 1: like the way you did that. I'm not shutting it down.
Speaker 1: I'm just like letting that ride off, you know. And
Speaker 1: I think we we hold so many things to the
Speaker 1: same standard that aren't the same. I'm like, this feedback,
Speaker 1: all feedback isn't the same. Yeah, giving weight where it
Speaker 1: doesn't deserve weight.
Speaker 2: One of the tools that you share in how to
Speaker 2: engage with people that you disagree with is holding space.
Speaker 2: Holding space is a real thing, and it's it's a
Speaker 2: therapy term too. Why do you think it's valuable to
Speaker 2: hold space and sit with the discomfort?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think, like you said, that's some
Speaker 1: of our greatest learnings and teachers come from these moments.
Speaker 1: I think if if you would have asked me ten
Speaker 1: years ago, like my ideal life, I would have been
Speaker 1: like everyday sunshine, every day perfect, every day grass is green.
Speaker 1: It looks like a claritin commercial, like everything's perfect. But
Speaker 1: when I look back in my life, those haven't been
Speaker 1: the days that have taught me anything. They've been awesome,
Speaker 1: and when they're there, I'm like, yes, I'm traping through
Speaker 1: the flowers. But I think it's important because we have
Speaker 1: to remember that our life is full of mutuality, and
Speaker 1: if we don't let ourselves sit and hold space for people,
Speaker 1: then how can we expect people to sit and hold
Speaker 1: space with us.
Speaker 2: So when you say hold space, just to be clear,
Speaker 2: you mean she like, listen to someone's perspective, listen to
Speaker 2: their work.
Speaker 1: Here's someone's perspective. I think empathy is our greatest tool
Speaker 1: in things like this, and I keep saying and hammering
Speaker 1: down empathy is not an endorsement. And I think sometimes
Speaker 1: we're afraid to empathize with people because we think, oh,
Speaker 1: if I can empathize with you, then I'm just co
Speaker 1: signing a new beliefs Like no, you're just humanizing that
Speaker 1: person having that experience, and that's an important tool.
Speaker 3: We need to take a quick break, but we'll be
Speaker 3: right back with Britt Barren. And we're back with author
Speaker 3: Britt barn You wrote something about empathy that's really stuck
Speaker 3: with me. You've talked about how it's so important for
Speaker 3: us to access empathy for the earlier versions of ourselves
Speaker 3: so that we can do the same for others. And
Speaker 3: when I think about that, I think about your brother
Speaker 3: who's a police officer, and I think about the fact
Speaker 3: that y'all probably don't see eye to eye on certain issues. Yeah,
Speaker 3: do you find yourself having to extend that empathy for
Speaker 3: his points of view?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, all the time. And again, like I am
Speaker 1: so close to the version of myself before this one
Speaker 1: and before that one and before that one, and sometimes
Speaker 1: it's easy to forget because like as we grow in
Speaker 1: of all, we feel more like ourselves. But I was like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I was at church like kids, sitting in
Speaker 1: the pew being like, oh my gosh, thank God, Like
Speaker 1: I found the right way to like live right and
Speaker 1: go to Heiman and I know all the right answers.
Speaker 1: I remember a sense of psychological safety watching over me,
Speaker 1: being like, oh, thank god, I found the right translation
Speaker 1: of the right book to have the right afterlifely, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Things now that I'm like what,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? But I remember when it
Speaker 1: felt like to like wholeheartedly believe that and to like
Speaker 1: embody that. And so when I talk to people or
Speaker 1: like people in my life who have relations I disagree with,
Speaker 1: sometimes I'm like, I'm just I'm gonna get a little
Speaker 1: bit curious, like because I remember feeling so down bad
Speaker 1: for a way of life that I now actively work against, right,
Speaker 1: like actively fight against some of the things that I
Speaker 1: believed like to like ten toos down for like American Christianity.
Speaker 1: And now I'm like, oops, yeah, we need to fight
Speaker 1: against it, you know what I mean. And that pendulum
Speaker 1: swing is so helpful for me when I'm talking to people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like my brother who's like America police. You know the
Speaker 1: things I'm like, I too remember how comforting it is
Speaker 1: to feel like I am on the right side. That
Speaker 1: can change the tone of the conversation. I say all
Speaker 1: the time, I like, the work never changes for me.
Speaker 1: I'm a person who believes in liberation for all people,
Speaker 1: but my approach to the work changes all the time
Speaker 1: when I access empathy, and then I start to realize
Speaker 1: that if everyone's not avided, then it's not actual liberation.
Speaker 1: This is all very radical, you know.
Speaker 3: You know, these are radical ideas in today's society, and
Speaker 3: this is not This is not how people offer You're
Speaker 3: offering a different perspective, like a new way of approaching
Speaker 3: relationships today.
Speaker 1: Empathy isn't passive. It's actually way more radical. Staying in
Speaker 1: relationships and coming to the table with people and working
Speaker 1: things out in a slow, nuanced, like empathetic kind way
Speaker 1: isn't passive. It's radical. I think what we've been doing
Speaker 1: is absolutely polarizing, and we're seeing that play out now.
Speaker 1: I'm like, we're about to come up on a chasm
Speaker 1: that's going to be impassable, and we're about to be
Speaker 1: so far up on our high horses on either side
Speaker 1: that we can't even hear each other came reach each
Speaker 1: other like we need something different and to be able
Speaker 1: to come to the center and have conversations with people
Speaker 1: we already know. So I'm saying, set yourself up well
Speaker 1: for the conversations you're going into. If someone is saying,
Speaker 1: I straight up hate queer people and I don't U
Speaker 1: should exist, I'm not having a conversation with you. But
Speaker 1: if someone is saying, like, I'm trying to reconcile this
Speaker 1: with my faith, and I'm like, and I'm like, oh, well, okay,
Speaker 1: what about this, and we're having a real conversation, I'll
Speaker 1: stay in the conversation. But my like, I don't think
Speaker 1: we can ever discount how much of an impact the
Speaker 1: narratives that we consume have on the conversations in our
Speaker 1: real life.
Speaker 3: You reference this James Baldon quote that I love. I
Speaker 3: imagine the reason people cling so tightly to hate is
Speaker 3: because they fear once the hate is gone, they'll be
Speaker 3: forced to deal with the pain. How has that language changed?
Speaker 3: How you see the extremes that we're dealing with right now?
Speaker 3: I mean, it's I think I see that play out
Speaker 3: more now than I have at any.
Speaker 1: Point in my life. So I try to keep hold
Speaker 1: an empathetic lens. And that doesn't mean a life without accountability.
Speaker 1: But I imagine, and even in that James Baldwin quote,
Speaker 1: you have folks who have had ideologies, who have had apologies,
Speaker 1: that have these ideas, And now I'm coming to you
Speaker 1: and saying the thing that you've sought for sixty years
Speaker 1: actually makes you fundamentally a bad person. So come on
Speaker 1: and agree with me. Aren't you a bad person? And
Speaker 1: so at the beginning of my career, I used to
Speaker 1: do a lot of anti racism trainings, corporate trainings, so
Speaker 1: you can imagine it was awesome. What year was that
Speaker 1: when you were doing this? Oh my gosh, I started
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen, but then I did a lot in
Speaker 1: twenty twenties. You can imagine. Yeah. And what's so interesting
Speaker 1: is I would always urge people. I'm like, can we
Speaker 1: just get to a point where we the term racist
Speaker 1: isn't necessarily as pejorative as it is descriptive, Like, we
Speaker 1: live in a society that puts out racist narratives and
Speaker 1: you have probably consumed them. Right, if we take this
Speaker 1: this isn't an individual issue. This is a systemic issue,
Speaker 1: and the system has touched you. And so if we
Speaker 1: could do that, then like, and I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: open people up to this idea of like, it's going
Speaker 1: to be painful to realize that you believed something that
Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily true. It's goal. It's a little bit painful
Speaker 1: to change your mind. This is what James Baldmon is
Speaker 1: talking about. After I spent years telling girls about purity
Speaker 1: culture and going on missions trips and telling people like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you know, we'll help you in this
Speaker 1: place where you don't have enough resources, this prayer, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's painful to think about things
Speaker 1: I did before now, and so I think it just
Speaker 1: when I go into these conversations, I'm like, hey, you
Speaker 1: there are some things going on in the world and
Speaker 1: you may have consumed those narratives and it's okay to
Speaker 1: change your mind, right. I think we make it so
Speaker 1: not okay for people to change their mind, even though
Speaker 1: we're their goal is for them to change their mind.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, why are you making it so hard?
Speaker 1: It's always okay to change your mind.
Speaker 2: I love that this one rings very true to me
Speaker 2: mending a betrayal. So I had a good friend, good
Speaker 2: girlfriend from growing up who I found with my boyfriend. Okay, wild,
Speaker 2: wild story. Yeah, she's still my friend all those years later,
Speaker 2: he's not my boyfriend. I decided the relationship was worth keeping.
Speaker 2: All my other girlfriends were just like a gas, like,
Speaker 2: how could you keep her in your life? I posted
Speaker 2: it on TikTok one point, and the internet was a blaze.
Speaker 2: They really disagreed with me too. So I want your
Speaker 2: opinion on betrayal. If someone seems genuinely remorseful and wants
Speaker 2: to reconcile, even if it was a horrible betrayal, how
Speaker 2: do you decide if the relationship's worth rebuilding.
Speaker 1: That's I want so many more details, but I feel like, okay,
Speaker 1: I need to go to the TikTok a huge I
Speaker 1: need to. I didn't think i'd need to beginning the conversation.
Speaker 1: That's a great question, and I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people wrestle with that point blank, shortest answer only you know.
Speaker 1: And I think if I had a magic wand and
Speaker 1: I could bop everybody in the world on the head
Speaker 1: and give them one thing, it would be more self
Speaker 1: trust because almost all the time we know, we know
Speaker 1: when we need to lean and we know when we
Speaker 1: need to step out. And I think something I talk
Speaker 1: about even in the book is we've done a weird
Speaker 1: thing with forgiveness where we made it feel like it's
Speaker 1: like a moment or it always requires the person who
Speaker 1: like did like did the betraying. And I always talk
Speaker 1: about forgiveness as like an action verb, as like something
Speaker 1: that we are actively doing. It's this ongoing process and
Speaker 1: not this moment. And so I think as we move
Speaker 1: through relationships with people who betrayal us, like keep a
Speaker 1: pulse check on like that forgiveness barometer, and if we
Speaker 1: have it, if we have it, and trust yourself, like
Speaker 1: what's the internet know about the depth of your relationship.
Speaker 2: I'd never heard anyone say that forgiveness is a verb
Speaker 2: that is so beautiful and rings so true to me.
Speaker 2: Even five six years later, I still find myself having
Speaker 2: to actively forgive that I love her. Okay, partnering through change,
Speaker 2: And I'm curious your thoughts on this, because you are married.
Speaker 2: A lot of my friends that have long term partners,
Speaker 2: those partners or my friends experience major shifts in their
Speaker 2: identity in their beliefs in their careers. How do you
Speaker 2: suggest navigating the tension between evolving individually and staying connected
Speaker 2: as a couple.
Speaker 1: I read this quote that I just loved so much,
Speaker 1: and it was about relationships, and it said loving someone
Speaker 1: is attending one thousand funerals of who they used to
Speaker 1: be and one thousand birthday parties for who they were coming.
Speaker 1: And I was like absolutely, wow. And I think in
Speaker 1: partnership like that can often be just such a great
Speaker 1: mirror to other relationships, to your own self and to
Speaker 1: be able to celebrate and be engaged with those changes.
Speaker 1: And I think a safe relationship that allows people to
Speaker 1: say like, I think this is changing where I'm sensing this,
Speaker 1: and you don't go like, well that's not who I
Speaker 1: marri And you get to go like, oh, I'm curious
Speaker 1: about that. I want to know more than I think.
Speaker 1: You know, you set that foundation because it's all going
Speaker 1: to change, it's all supposed to change, it's all meant
Speaker 1: to change, you know.
Speaker 3: So when it gets into the nitty gritty of like
Speaker 3: practical application of all this, obviously that's work. It's a
Speaker 3: lot tougher, Yeah, especially when you're when you're trying to
Speaker 3: navigate between Okay, is the thing that I have a
Speaker 3: problem with? Is it someone's behavior or is it a
Speaker 3: belief that I hold m that's core to their DNA.
Speaker 1: So how do you know when to set form boundaries?
Speaker 1: That's a great question. I think when it comes to boundaries,
Speaker 1: something I like to always say is that boundaries should
Speaker 1: always be like set and then reassessed, like this should
Speaker 1: be a constant like thing that we do. And so
Speaker 1: if you're not sure, if you're like, what's happening? Is
Speaker 1: this the belief is this? Take some space. If you
Speaker 1: can't hold space, take space is something I say all
Speaker 1: the time, like, just take some space. I think sometimes
Speaker 1: we think that the options are go no contact with
Speaker 1: our family or stay permanently at the table now like
Speaker 1: there is such a wide world in between, and so
Speaker 1: set boundaries for whatever you need as you need them,
Speaker 1: and then reassess. I think during a heightened political season,
Speaker 1: during a heightened emotional season, during a heightened creative season,
Speaker 1: my boundaries all change. If I'm writing a book, I'm like,
Speaker 1: good luck hearing from me. They shift and change. And
Speaker 1: the strongest boundary I have in my life, without question,
Speaker 1: is with information. Rights with the news, it's with social media,
Speaker 1: it's with like things that I can really that impact
Speaker 1: my life. I think with relationships it's the same. I
Speaker 1: think I was just talking to something about this who
Speaker 1: was like, I don't want to like cut my family off,
Speaker 1: but like, okay, it's just too much, like it thinks
Speaker 1: to me, is too much. And I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: don't don't go that's this. These little boundaries are in
Speaker 1: a sign that we're like throwing in the white towel.
Speaker 1: It's giving us more confidence for when we do show up,
Speaker 1: that we are showing up in the way that we want.
Speaker 1: It's not like advantageous to be like, oh, I'm just
Speaker 1: going to force myself to stay at the table, give
Speaker 1: yourself some space, and then get back in there.
Speaker 2: As we step into this new year, and maybe someone
Speaker 2: listening is thinking about mending fenses with someone in their life,
Speaker 2: or even trying to hold on to a bond that
Speaker 2: feels really difficult, what is your advice for them? What
Speaker 2: is step one? That's a great question. I feel like
Speaker 2: step one is to always ask yourself if you are
Speaker 2: willing and ready to do what it would take to
Speaker 2: either keep that connection or men's that connections. I think
Speaker 2: sometimes we just don't have it, and that's okay, and
Speaker 2: sometimes we really are willing, but you have to know
Speaker 2: whether or not you are in that space. I think
Speaker 2: I had a friend, she was my best friend at
Speaker 2: the time that I got married, and I asked her
Speaker 2: to be a brides and early wedding as one does,
Speaker 2: and she said yes, and then when it really came
Speaker 2: down to it, she said no because we were two
Speaker 2: women getting married, and she worked at a church and
Speaker 2: there was a lot of things, and this was like
Speaker 2: my best friend and someone I loved dearly, and we
Speaker 2: tried really hard to keep that connection for a while,
Speaker 2: and then we just couldn't, like we just couldn't do it,
Speaker 2: like we didn't have it, and we didn't talk for
Speaker 2: about four years. A year and a half ago, we
Speaker 2: met up for lunch and we were just such different people,
Speaker 2: and we have become such different people that we had
Speaker 2: everything we needed that we just didn't have four years ago.
Speaker 2: And now we like talk every day again, and all
Speaker 2: my best friends WHOA And so I think sometimes urgency
Speaker 2: is our greatest enemy. It's okay to have space. Everything
Speaker 2: doesn't have to happen right now in one conversation in
Speaker 2: one season. I'm super grateful that we didn't talk for
Speaker 2: four years, because we wouldn't have been able to have
Speaker 2: the relationship we have now if I would have just
Speaker 2: like ripped my teeth through everything that bothered me that
Speaker 2: I knew I couldn't get.
Speaker 1: Past in the moment.
Speaker 3: That was so wise, Britt, Before we go, how do
Speaker 3: you exercise your curiosity on the daily? What do you
Speaker 3: do to keep that muscle firing?
Speaker 1: Oh? Great question. You can't give what you don't have,
Speaker 1: and so I always try to use it on myself. First.
Speaker 1: I am endlessly curious about every emotion that comes up.
Speaker 1: I think I used to live in a world in
Speaker 1: a mindset where I'd be like, oh, I'm feeling this. No,
Speaker 1: I'm not like, shove that down, shove that down. I
Speaker 1: think being curious about myself first makes me realize how
Speaker 1: absolutely vast every single human being is that at any moment,
Speaker 1: I am feeling a multitude of things. I'm like, why
Speaker 1: am I feeling angry? I'm like, wait, no, what's the
Speaker 1: day to day? Like? Oh my gosh, two years ago
Speaker 1: I had this really hard thing. Is my body remembering that? Oh?
Speaker 1: Should I bake this? Breadway, I kind of missed my dog. Wait, no,
Speaker 1: that conversation my mom was kind of weird. Right, No,
Speaker 1: that's me And that was thirty seconds this morning, right.
Speaker 1: And so I think when I allow myself to be
Speaker 1: generous to like all the nuanced eye hold, then I
Speaker 1: can serve to hold it for somewhere else.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us on the right side,
Speaker 3: brit Thanks for having me. Britt Baron is the author
Speaker 3: of Do You Still Talk to Grandma? It's available wherever
Speaker 3: you get your books.
Speaker 2: That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're joined by five
Speaker 2: time Olympic medalist Mary and Jones. She's here to talk
Speaker 2: about overcoming failure and moving forward from past mistakes. You
Speaker 2: don't want to miss this.
Speaker 3: Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect
Speaker 3: with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram
Speaker 3: and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok oh, and
Speaker 3: feel free to tag us at simone Voice and at
Speaker 3: Danielle Robe.
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Speaker 1: See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.