1 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: Hey fam, Hello sunshine. 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 2: Today on the bright side. If you've been struggling with 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 2: how to have those tough conversations with your family, or 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 2: maybe you've got people in your life you just can't 5 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 2: see eye to eye with, we have got you. Today 6 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 2: is the show for you. Joining us is Britt Barren. 7 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: She's a pastor and a master of nuance who's giving 8 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 2: us the tools to talk it through and find a 9 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: little more common ground with the ones we love. It's Monday, 10 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 2: February third. I'm Danielle Robe and. 11 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 3: I'm Simone Boyce, and this is the bright Side from 12 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 3: Hello Sunshine. 13 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 2: All Right, Simone, it's on my mind Monday. What's on 14 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: your mind today? 15 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 3: Girl? Well, we're starting a new month. I still have 16 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 3: that new year energy coursing through me. I get super 17 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 3: introspective this time of year, which I'm sure you do too, 18 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 3: just thinking about like where you are, where you want 19 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 3: to be. And I came across this article in the 20 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 3: Washington Post that really made an impact on me. It's 21 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 3: all about this idea of self continuity, the link between 22 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 3: who who you are and then who you expect to be. 23 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 2: Ooh, what is the difference? 24 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, to start the Washington Post piece says that 25 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 3: often when we look back at our former selves, we 26 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 3: might kind of cringe at how we once acted. Maybe 27 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 3: we were immature, maybe we reacted poorly to something that 28 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 3: happened to us. But actually the research shows us that 29 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 3: a sense of coherence and kind of respect or reverence 30 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 3: for our past and our present selves can help with 31 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 3: mental health and becoming emotionally resilient. 32 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,639 Speaker 2: Are you saying that those emails I sent in twenty 33 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: seventeen that feel incredibly cringey I need to look at 34 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 2: as just. 35 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: Part of my journey. 36 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: Is that what's happening here. 37 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 3: The fact that you're still thinking about it actually shows 38 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 3: signs of emotional resilience and that you do have this 39 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 3: healthy sense of self continuity. And I am the exact 40 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 3: same way I ruminate on my most embarrassing moments. This 41 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 3: is like my hobby. I'm really encouraged. I'm really encouraged 42 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 3: by this research you. 43 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 2: So it's such a funny moment in your interview with 44 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: Esa about. 45 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 3: That this is the This is exactly what comes to mind. 46 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 3: And in the interview with Esa, I tell her this 47 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 3: story about how I was like so embarrassed, like in 48 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 3: this instant of social awkwardness, and I keep replaying it 49 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 3: in my mind. But apparently this is healthy. Apparently my 50 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 3: rumination is healthy. At least that's what I'm going to 51 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: tell myself. But I will say, Danielle, one of my 52 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 3: favorite parts of this article is this suggestion to practice 53 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 3: writing a letter to your future self, that that can 54 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 3: actually be a way to better understand this self continuity idea. 55 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 2: My therapist just had me do this. I had to 56 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: write a letter to Danielle in five years. 57 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 3: That is so funny to me because I have felt 58 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 3: like burdened by this idea that I need to write 59 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 3: a letter to my future self not five years out, 60 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 3: but like a year from now, because I want to 61 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 3: make sure I'm still living by my values. 62 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 2: Then well that's nice. And also you can start with 63 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 2: chet and then rewrite it in your own words. 64 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: You did, you didn't actually write it. 65 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: I needed a starting point. 66 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: I was like five years. 67 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 2: Who knows so much happens in a month. 68 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 3: The second half of this exercise is actually writing a 69 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 3: letter back from the future self you want to be Yeah, 70 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 3: kind of mind blowing, right, And I was surprised to 71 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 3: learn that there's actually research around this practice. In one 72 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 3: study conducted with high school students, letter writing to your 73 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 3: future self lowered anxiety, fostered a greater sense of connection 74 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 3: to your future self, and it also increased these student's 75 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 3: desire to study harder and reach their goals. 76 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 2: I actually I really agree with that. There's all these 77 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: studies that say that people that write down their goals 78 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 2: accomplish more of them. 79 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: What did you feel like you gained from this exercise? 80 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: I had. 81 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: It actually made me very hopeful and it felt exciting, 82 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: like it gave me that spark of possibility. And one 83 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: of my things this year was trying to follow the spark. 84 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: Are you gonna do this? 85 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 3: Yes, as soon as I find the time, I'm gonna 86 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 3: do it. 87 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. Do it in Jamaica. 88 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: No, I want to. 89 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 3: I want to actually like kind of like sit down 90 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 3: and journal and like be in the right headspace for me. 91 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 3: It's it's about making sure that as busy as life 92 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 3: gets and as busy as work gets, that I'm still 93 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 3: like living by the values that I committed to a 94 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 3: few years ago. And yeah, just not letting things sort 95 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 3: of like eclipse. 96 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 2: That is it too personal to ask what values? 97 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 3: Like? What do you mean values not at all values 98 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 3: of just being present with my family. That's that's the 99 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 3: main thing, you know, being present with my husband and 100 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 3: my kids. And it's really like an exercise for me 101 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 3: to keep my ambition and ego in check because I 102 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 3: lived and worked for so long where I kind of 103 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 3: just let those things run out ahead of me without 104 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 3: actually being intentional about how I wanted to live my life. 105 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: That's really really nice. Yeah, I like how you're framing 106 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 2: it in terms of values too, because you really don't 107 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 2: know where things will go necessarily, but you can always 108 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 2: live by that integrity exactly. 109 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 3: And it's like best case scenario, things do go, you know, 110 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 3: in a direction that I'm super happy with, but like 111 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 3: there's a lot that comes with that, you know, And 112 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: sometimes our greatest goals or dreams can also be distractions 113 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 3: too from things that we need to address or confront 114 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 3: in our lives. 115 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: I'll never forget. At the Oscars, after Will Smith had 116 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 2: his moment of you know, and Denzel Washington went up 117 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 2: to him and said, the devil comes for you your 118 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: highest moment, Yes, and that is. 119 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 3: Exactly what it is. It's really true. Yeah, you're very 120 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 3: vulnerable at that summit. Well, I think Another element of 121 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 3: this conversation Danielle is surrounding yourself with people who can 122 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 3: help you live out that self continuity and that accountability 123 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 3: that you need to reach your future self. And when 124 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 3: I think of the people in my life who do 125 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 3: that for me, my friend Britt Baron is someone who 126 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 3: comes to mind. She is always thinking about perspective, about integrity, 127 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 3: about nuance, about character, and she's going to be sharing 128 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 3: some of that journey with us today. 129 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: She's a pastor turned author and a keynote speaker. In 130 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 2: her first book, Worth It chronicles her journey as a 131 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 2: queer woman growing up in the church, becoming a pastor, 132 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 2: and then ultimately choosing a new path, which is a 133 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 2: really interesting journey. 134 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, that experience was I think she would be okay 135 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 3: with me saying, you know, life altering, and it really 136 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 3: inspired her to think more deeply about the importance of 137 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 3: preserving relationships with family and friends, even when it feels 138 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 3: like there's nothing left for us to preserve. 139 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: Her latest book, Do You Still Talk To Grandma? 140 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 3: Is for anyone feeling disappointed by the people that they love, 141 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 3: or for anyone who struggles to connect with those loved 142 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 3: ones who may be on opposite sides of an issue. 143 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: Sound familiar to anybody. You're not going to. 144 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 3: Want to miss this conversation. Britt truly could be the 145 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 3: key to unlocking the transformation we want. 146 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: That's after the break, Stay with. 147 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 3: Us, Welcome to the bright side. I'm so happy to 148 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 3: be here. You guys are giggling because I'm very good 149 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 3: friends with Britt. She's like a family member to me. 150 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 3: And it's so funny whenever you take someone out of 151 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 3: that environment and bring them into your professional environment, like. 152 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: We like, looks Simone at work. Oh yeah, we're formally 153 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: this is John Fancy and Fumal. 154 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 3: We should explain how we met Ooh yes, okay, we 155 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 3: met in the trenches. We did. 156 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: We met on a wellness retreat that I knew going 157 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: in what the wellness meant, and I knew that we 158 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: were in for some like deep internal work. But all 159 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: we got on the bus. This is like my favorite 160 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: memory of you. We got on the bus and everyone's 161 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: like meeting and talking about and I knew what we 162 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: were in for. And Simone got up and was like, 163 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: does anyone know about SPA treatments? That sounds about right. 164 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: Little did I know? 165 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 3: I was in for group therapy camp where we would 166 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 3: be weeping together for the next four days. But it 167 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 3: was a magical experience and so lucky to count you 168 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 3: as a friend now because I turned to you all 169 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 3: the time for wisdom and now we get to open 170 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 3: it up to our bright side busties. So I want 171 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 3: to explore your backstory a little bit. How did you 172 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 3: go from pastor to author and educator. I grew up 173 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 3: very religious in the Evangelical Church, and then like just 174 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 3: fully committed, went to Christian College, went to Christian grad 175 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 3: school like was in the world, and when I was 176 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 3: only twenty six, which at the time I felt grown, 177 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 3: but now I'm like a child. I became a pastor 178 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 3: to mega church, and so you like learn all of 179 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 3: these skills and all of these things that you become 180 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 3: really good at your job, but they don't necessarily feel transferable. 181 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 3: Like I've never walked up and been like, can I 182 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 3: run your tech company? 183 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: I used to be a manature chest they and like, 184 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,599 Speaker 1: oh amazing, right, right. So coming out of that environment, 185 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: I found myself just sort of looking back on my 186 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: life and being like, what skills have I acquired? And 187 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: obviously I spent a long time talking like I was 188 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: a kid in school where every single report card was 189 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: talk too much, talks about no. I'm like, this is 190 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: why we were friends. Yeah, and now like, can't stop me. 191 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: If I found a way to make mine I get paid, 192 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: I'll talk all right, Oh bake, I'll talk, I'll do 193 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: a video. And then I just my own identity as 194 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: a person of color. I grew up in predominantly white 195 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: environments and worked in predominant white environments, and I was 196 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: a pastor at the church. I was trying to do 197 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: more and more technic things, and so sort of like 198 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: gained a lot of skills around talking and like breaking 199 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: down these big ideas around diversity, equity, inclusion and making 200 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: it feel like tangible and like attainable, and so I 201 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: just parlayed that into a career. Very cool. The non 202 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: transferable skill is so real, Yeah, trying to find a 203 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: transfer somewhere. 204 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 3: There was a really big life event that happened, and 205 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 3: I want to hear how that changed the trajectory of 206 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 3: your career as both a pastor and a speaker. You 207 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 3: met your wife when you were working at that same church, 208 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 3: and when you both came out and shared the status 209 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 3: of the relationship with your bosses at the church, you 210 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 3: weren't met with the reception that you wanted. What happened 211 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: from there? 212 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: I spent a lot of my life just being pretty 213 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: unaware of my own sexuality, right, which isn't like a 214 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: wild thing. I think when you grow up in the church, 215 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: right if, even if you're not queer, you're just sort 216 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: of like do do do? 217 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 3: Right, Like, it's best to just not address that at all. Well, 218 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 3: because there's so much shame around just the idea of 219 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 3: sex exactly. So you're like, I'm like, okay, I'm doing 220 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 3: a kind of a good job, just like nothinking. Really, 221 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 3: I just put it on my head. 222 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: But then I met Sammy and I was like whoa 223 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: like and instantly fell in love and was like, this 224 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 1: is okay, my life makes so much sense now, you 225 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: know what I mean? Why was pil Dockey camp meaning 226 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: my favorite week of the year because I'm gay? So 227 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: I come to this realization and fall in love. And 228 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: we were both working at the church. She was the 229 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: creative rector and I was a pastor, and we knew 230 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: it was not affirming, so meaning it was not LGBTQ affirming. Yes, 231 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: meaning you couldn't be gay and work there or be 232 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: in leadership. And no, I'm not talking about Alabama in 233 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: the sixties. This was a church in la in like 234 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. And so when I came out, I knew 235 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: that choosing Sammy and choosing myself and choosing sort of 236 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: to love and be loved and had that experience, I 237 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: knew that would mean dismantling the world I had built 238 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: a career in. And that was really hard for me because, 239 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, I was thinking around, like, what 240 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: am I gonna do? What job could I have? What 241 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: life could I have? Because it wasn't just my job, 242 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: it was also my network and comedian friends. Everything was 243 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: wrapped up in church. And so I think having that 244 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: experience and realizing that ultimately like I had to learn 245 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 1: that just because something's hard doesn't mean it's bad. And 246 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: so even though that was the most beautiful experience in 247 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: my life, it was incredibly difficult, but something I value 248 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: now because I have been able to build a career 249 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: that is authentically my own. 250 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 2: You've referred to yourself as a master of nuance. How 251 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 2: did you discover nuance in navigating these challenging relationships that 252 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 2: maybe weren't challenging before. 253 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I think one giant lesson that was really 254 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: important for me to learn and went on to influence 255 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: a ton of the work, even though today I was 256 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: leaving that experience that became very hurtful, but not being 257 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: able to throw the whole thing out, So leaving and 258 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: being like, oh my gosh, that was probably one of 259 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: the hardest experiences of my entire life and left me 260 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: with some deep trauma parts of which I unpacked a 261 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: trauma camp. But then I was like, oh, but there 262 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: were also these beautiful moments that I had, and then 263 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: there was like good things too, and so I really 264 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: wrestled with like, Okay, which one's true? Was it a 265 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: good experience or was it bad? And then find myself 266 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: being like, oh, I think two things can be true, 267 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: and if more than one thing can be true, Like, 268 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: how does that impact how I view everything else? 269 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 3: What you're saying is so hard to do, Like, I'm 270 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 3: looking really deep inside myself right now, and I don't 271 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 3: think I'm good at that, being able to say I 272 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 3: have issues with this person or experience or thing, but 273 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 3: that doesn't mean all. 274 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: Of it is bad. No, it's really hot it's really hard. 275 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: It's really hard, and it requires a lot of practice. 276 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: But at the same time, I'm like, I think we've 277 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: been trained to have our brains take the easiest route, 278 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: which is just all good or all bad, all one 279 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: or the other right, which is what we're seeing right now, 280 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: happen like everywhere. Right you see a person, You're like, 281 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: I just need to know one thing about them so 282 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: I could decide the totality of them. 283 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 3: I'm so glad you brought that up, because I want 284 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 3: to talk about your book. Do you still talk to Grandma? 285 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 3: It's a follow up to your first book, Worth It? 286 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 3: And it feels like this is the book of the 287 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 3: moment right now, because as we scroll through our feeds, 288 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 3: we are just bombarded with what you're talking about, this 289 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 3: binary thinking. This group is right, that group's wrong, this 290 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 3: person's good, this person's bad, And it feels like we 291 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 3: constantly have to be intentional and fight just to be 292 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 3: able to think in the gray, just to be able 293 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 3: to imagine in that gray space. When did you first 294 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 3: realize that the world wasn't quite as neatly as divided 295 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 3: as we've been told, And what was your first step 296 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 3: and just mantling the binary thinking. 297 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I always say the work of this book 298 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: started in my own therapy journey. I was in therapy 299 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: because I was unpacking my relationship with my parents. And 300 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: I grew up really close to my parents and like 301 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: oddly like protective of them. But every time I was 302 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: in therapy and I would mention something that was kind 303 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: of disappointing, like I wish my parents would have done 304 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: this differently here like this, I would immediately be like, 305 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: but they're really good people, and my favorites was like, sorry, 306 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: do you think if you say something about them that 307 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: was disappointing or her full or you wish she had that, 308 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: it's erases every good thing you've ever said about them? 309 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: And I was like, yes, I do, I do believe that. 310 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: I don't believe that. And that was the beginning of, 311 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: like so much of my personal work that I then 312 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: started to like notice everywhere I saw it, and now 313 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: I see it like in social media, I see it 314 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: more than I've ever seen it, and where it's like, no, 315 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: only one thing is true and I'm going to figure 316 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: out which one. 317 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 2: It's particularly hard with parental relationships, though, because I think 318 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: we feel like a sense of duty and gratitude, even 319 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 2: if it was a challenging relationship. 320 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, because then you're like, but they did everything for me. 321 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: But then again, that's like us being like it's one 322 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: or the other, but it really can't be both, right, 323 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: you know, I'm like so grateful. My parents are incredible. 324 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 3: Were you raised in a home that was that stereotypical 325 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 3: nineties authoritative, fear based parenting or was it different from that? 326 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: No, I wouldn't say that. My parents were so committed 327 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: to being parents, and I mean at the best way, 328 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: and so they were. We had a good relationship and 329 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: they were very like open wooming, and that's why it's 330 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: hard for me to talk about things that I might 331 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: be disappointed or have our time with. We were very 332 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: Christian though, like we were in it. Yeah. Yeah, I 333 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: have to tell you. 334 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 2: Some of the most intriguing parts of your work to 335 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 2: me are or having to do with the idea of 336 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 2: not letting relationships go. We hear, particularly online if you're 337 00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 2: a TikTok GIRLI you hear this a lot that if 338 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 2: a relationship does not serve you, let it go. You 339 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,479 Speaker 2: say that you believe quite the opposite, even in the 340 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 2: face of fundamental disagreements, close relationships are worth preserving. Is 341 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 2: that based on experience? 342 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: Yes? Absolutely, yeah, I think we all have to be honest, 343 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,719 Speaker 1: like probably since twenty sixteen, have people in our life 344 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: that we have very close relationships and a deep love 345 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:32,479 Speaker 1: for and hold deep disappointment. And so I think that 346 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: first happened with me when I left the church, and 347 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 1: I'm like finding myself in this identity. And I have 348 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 1: a lot of people who I love deeply who still 349 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: believe that it was wrong or that the Bible says something, 350 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: or that God like still hold this idea, this very 351 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: like problematic idea. And I think what's hard for me 352 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: is online if someone says something you don't like, I'm like, 353 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, Blake Lively tweeted something and I didn't 354 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: like it. I'm like, oh, I just unfollow her, like 355 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: this is in conset question to me. I don't know her, 356 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: like I don't know. But then we get in the 357 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: habit of doing that where it's like and this is 358 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: why the book is called Use with Grandma, because I'm like, 359 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: we have grandparents and parents and cousins and partners and 360 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: college roommates who say one thing and then we're like, oh, well, I. 361 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 2: Could just be done with you now, and I'm like, wow, 362 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,479 Speaker 2: I hear the Internet's voice in my head. Is you're talking, 363 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 2: They're saying yes. And when somebody voted for someone who 364 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 2: denies my right to exist, just as an example, how 365 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: can I still maintain that relationship? I actually really agree 366 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: with you, but I'm curious what you think makes it 367 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 2: worth fighting for. 368 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: I've gotten a ton of pushback and appreciate it, right, 369 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 1: because there always is a line, right, there are times 370 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 1: where you're like, okay for your own safety and goodness. 371 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: But I think what makes it worth fighting for is 372 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: our connection to other people is why we do this, 373 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: why we're here, and our ability to hold nuance and 374 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: to hold empathy in those relationships does more for us 375 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: most of the time than it even does for those 376 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: other people. And if our goal is to only stand 377 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: in a circle with people who agree with us one 378 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: hundred percent of the time, we are going to end 379 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: up standing alone. And that is probably the worst place 380 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: to end up standing up, because we need other people, 381 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,719 Speaker 1: and so we have to take a realistic look at 382 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: our expectations for relationship. I'm like, I keep joking that 383 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: I was talking to this guy and he was like 384 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: red in the face, telling me how he's not going 385 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: to his family's Thanksgiving because they're not like going to 386 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: do vegan Thanksgiving and she's a vegan and he's like 387 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: so serious about it, and he's like, they're animals, they 388 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: are scenting and beans. We know this, the research is 389 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: out there. He's like going on and on all these 390 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: vegan facts and he's like, my family doesn't respect that. 391 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: They don't respect me, Like I'm out, you know, And 392 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 1: I'm like that's crazy, you know, And now I just 393 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: like how to ask. I was like, how long are 394 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: you going to begin? You know? He was like a year, 395 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: and I'm like, okay, listen. At the end of the day, 396 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: like we have backstory and backstory and contact with people 397 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: in our life that are we are willing to grow 398 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: away over conversations that haven't even had time to marinate. 399 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 1: We show our parents one tweet and then if they 400 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: don't radically change their entire political identity that they've had 401 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: for like decades, then we're like, you don't get it, 402 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: you don't get me, Like I'm gone, And I don't 403 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: think we give enough weight to like the connection and 404 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: to the humanity of the relationships. Not I agree with you. 405 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 2: I also think some of my most challenging relationships have 406 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 2: been my greatest teachers. 407 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 3: M I have a pretty ideologically diverse group of friends 408 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 3: that you know, are across the spectrum of beliefs, but 409 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 3: just being honest, Like, sometimes I feel like I'm going 410 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 3: to be criticized for that in today's society. Like I 411 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 3: feel like sometimes people are gonna be like, I can't 412 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 3: believe you hang out with this person because if you 413 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 3: look at if you look at their views online, they 414 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 3: are pretty extreme and they're very different from mine. However, 415 00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 3: I have a lot of respect for this person because 416 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 3: I think they have a lot of integrity, But I 417 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 3: feel like people would have an issue with that, you know. 418 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: And they probably would and do. And that's where, Gosh, 419 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,199 Speaker 1: one of the things I talk about that like prompted 420 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: me to even set work in this book was like 421 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: my response when we were like waiting for the verdict 422 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: for George Floyd's murder Trap, and I was sitting in 423 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: my house and we're waiting for the verdict and then 424 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: it comes and it's guilty, and I'm like, immediately before 425 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 1: I did anything else, I picked it up my phone 426 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 1: and I was like, I need to post about this, 427 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: and so I was like, guilty praising emojis, and then 428 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: I was like, no, should need praise to that. I 429 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: go like and look at another activist online and she 430 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 1: was like, you shouldn't be celebrating Georgia should be alive. 431 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: So I'm like, oh, take the price praisans out, just guilty, 432 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: and I look at another thing. They're like, don't let 433 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: anyone tell you can't celebrate, like this is a win. 434 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh, okay, praisans are back. And 435 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 1: then now I go to another page and then they're like, 436 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: this is this is justice. I kinda believe that the 437 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: same you can okay, and then like freaking out and 438 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,479 Speaker 1: I'm like, what is happening? Yeah, Like at the end 439 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: of the day, I think we have a huge where 440 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: we will experiencing something and we will be doing something 441 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: that feels right to us, like this is what I 442 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: want to say. These are the people I feel comfortable 443 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: having friendships with, this is the work I could feel 444 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,239 Speaker 1: downable doing. And then we have everyone else's voice who 445 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: isn't living that experience influencing what we're doing. 446 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 3: So how do you approach conversation in online spaces now? 447 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 3: Because you write about a friend of yours who was 448 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 3: publicly shamed for something that she said online that many 449 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 3: people perceive to be racist, and you mentioned hearing the 450 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 3: verdict from the George Floyd trial. What do you say now, 451 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 3: Because it does feel like it's impossible to serve this 452 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 3: many masters. 453 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: It is, and so I think you have to decide 454 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: who are you serving, right, and you have to appropriately 455 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 1: take like appropriately place context and people and feedback. Right. 456 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: Like one of my best friends in the entire world 457 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: called me one time and was like, hey, just so 458 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: you know, like you're not being a good friend. And 459 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, idially shut down, close the laptop. 460 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: I'm zoned in. I'm listening why this person has been 461 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: in my life for twenty years. Right, So she's like, 462 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: think random DM from lady in Ohio saying I don't 463 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: like the way you did that. I'm not shutting it down. 464 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: I'm just like letting that ride off, you know. And 465 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: I think we we hold so many things to the 466 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 1: same standard that aren't the same. I'm like, this feedback, 467 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: all feedback isn't the same. Yeah, giving weight where it 468 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: doesn't deserve weight. 469 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 2: One of the tools that you share in how to 470 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: engage with people that you disagree with is holding space. 471 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 2: Holding space is a real thing, and it's it's a 472 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 2: therapy term too. Why do you think it's valuable to 473 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 2: hold space and sit with the discomfort? 474 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think, like you said, that's some 475 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: of our greatest learnings and teachers come from these moments. 476 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: I think if if you would have asked me ten 477 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: years ago, like my ideal life, I would have been 478 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: like everyday sunshine, every day perfect, every day grass is green. 479 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: It looks like a claritin commercial, like everything's perfect. But 480 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: when I look back in my life, those haven't been 481 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: the days that have taught me anything. They've been awesome, 482 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: and when they're there, I'm like, yes, I'm traping through 483 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: the flowers. But I think it's important because we have 484 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: to remember that our life is full of mutuality, and 485 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: if we don't let ourselves sit and hold space for people, 486 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: then how can we expect people to sit and hold 487 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: space with us. 488 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 2: So when you say hold space, just to be clear, 489 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 2: you mean she like, listen to someone's perspective, listen to 490 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 2: their work. 491 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: Here's someone's perspective. I think empathy is our greatest tool 492 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,479 Speaker 1: in things like this, and I keep saying and hammering 493 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: down empathy is not an endorsement. And I think sometimes 494 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: we're afraid to empathize with people because we think, oh, 495 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: if I can empathize with you, then I'm just co 496 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: signing a new beliefs Like no, you're just humanizing that 497 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: person having that experience, and that's an important tool. 498 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 3: We need to take a quick break, but we'll be 499 00:24:53,160 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 3: right back with Britt Barren. And we're back with author 500 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 3: Britt barn You wrote something about empathy that's really stuck 501 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 3: with me. You've talked about how it's so important for 502 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 3: us to access empathy for the earlier versions of ourselves 503 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 3: so that we can do the same for others. And 504 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 3: when I think about that, I think about your brother 505 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 3: who's a police officer, and I think about the fact 506 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 3: that y'all probably don't see eye to eye on certain issues. Yeah, 507 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 3: do you find yourself having to extend that empathy for 508 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 3: his points of view? 509 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, all the time. And again, like I am 510 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: so close to the version of myself before this one 511 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: and before that one and before that one, and sometimes 512 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: it's easy to forget because like as we grow in 513 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: of all, we feel more like ourselves. But I was like, 514 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: oh yeah, I was at church like kids, sitting in 515 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: the pew being like, oh my gosh, thank God, Like 516 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: I found the right way to like live right and 517 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 1: go to Heiman and I know all the right answers. 518 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: I remember a sense of psychological safety watching over me, 519 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: being like, oh, thank god, I found the right translation 520 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 1: of the right book to have the right afterlifely, you 521 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: know what I mean? Things now that I'm like what, 522 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? But I remember when it 523 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: felt like to like wholeheartedly believe that and to like 524 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: embody that. And so when I talk to people or 525 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: like people in my life who have relations I disagree with, 526 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: sometimes I'm like, I'm just I'm gonna get a little 527 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: bit curious, like because I remember feeling so down bad 528 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: for a way of life that I now actively work against, right, 529 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: like actively fight against some of the things that I 530 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: believed like to like ten toos down for like American Christianity. 531 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: And now I'm like, oops, yeah, we need to fight 532 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: against it, you know what I mean. And that pendulum 533 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 1: swing is so helpful for me when I'm talking to people. Yeah, 534 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: like my brother who's like America police. You know the 535 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: things I'm like, I too remember how comforting it is 536 00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: to feel like I am on the right side. That 537 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,719 Speaker 1: can change the tone of the conversation. I say all 538 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: the time, I like, the work never changes for me. 539 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: I'm a person who believes in liberation for all people, 540 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: but my approach to the work changes all the time 541 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: when I access empathy, and then I start to realize 542 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: that if everyone's not avided, then it's not actual liberation. 543 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: This is all very radical, you know. 544 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 3: You know, these are radical ideas in today's society, and 545 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 3: this is not This is not how people offer You're 546 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 3: offering a different perspective, like a new way of approaching 547 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 3: relationships today. 548 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: Empathy isn't passive. It's actually way more radical. Staying in 549 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: relationships and coming to the table with people and working 550 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: things out in a slow, nuanced, like empathetic kind way 551 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: isn't passive. It's radical. I think what we've been doing 552 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: is absolutely polarizing, and we're seeing that play out now. 553 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: I'm like, we're about to come up on a chasm 554 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: that's going to be impassable, and we're about to be 555 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 1: so far up on our high horses on either side 556 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 1: that we can't even hear each other came reach each 557 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: other like we need something different and to be able 558 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: to come to the center and have conversations with people 559 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: we already know. So I'm saying, set yourself up well 560 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: for the conversations you're going into. If someone is saying, 561 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: I straight up hate queer people and I don't U 562 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: should exist, I'm not having a conversation with you. But 563 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: if someone is saying, like, I'm trying to reconcile this 564 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: with my faith, and I'm like, and I'm like, oh, well, okay, 565 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: what about this, and we're having a real conversation, I'll 566 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: stay in the conversation. But my like, I don't think 567 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: we can ever discount how much of an impact the 568 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: narratives that we consume have on the conversations in our 569 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: real life. 570 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 3: You reference this James Baldon quote that I love. I 571 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 3: imagine the reason people cling so tightly to hate is 572 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 3: because they fear once the hate is gone, they'll be 573 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 3: forced to deal with the pain. How has that language changed? 574 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,959 Speaker 3: How you see the extremes that we're dealing with right now? 575 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 3: I mean, it's I think I see that play out 576 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 3: more now than I have at any. 577 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: Point in my life. So I try to keep hold 578 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: an empathetic lens. And that doesn't mean a life without accountability. 579 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: But I imagine, and even in that James Baldwin quote, 580 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: you have folks who have had ideologies, who have had apologies, 581 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: that have these ideas, And now I'm coming to you 582 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: and saying the thing that you've sought for sixty years 583 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: actually makes you fundamentally a bad person. So come on 584 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: and agree with me. Aren't you a bad person? And 585 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: so at the beginning of my career, I used to 586 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: do a lot of anti racism trainings, corporate trainings, so 587 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: you can imagine it was awesome. What year was that 588 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: when you were doing this? Oh my gosh, I started 589 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen, but then I did a lot in 590 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: twenty twenties. You can imagine. Yeah. And what's so interesting 591 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: is I would always urge people. I'm like, can we 592 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: just get to a point where we the term racist 593 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: isn't necessarily as pejorative as it is descriptive, Like, we 594 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: live in a society that puts out racist narratives and 595 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: you have probably consumed them. Right, if we take this 596 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: this isn't an individual issue. This is a systemic issue, 597 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: and the system has touched you. And so if we 598 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: could do that, then like, and I'm just trying to 599 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: open people up to this idea of like, it's going 600 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: to be painful to realize that you believed something that 601 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily true. It's goal. It's a little bit painful 602 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: to change your mind. This is what James Baldmon is 603 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: talking about. After I spent years telling girls about purity 604 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: culture and going on missions trips and telling people like, 605 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you know, we'll help you in this 606 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: place where you don't have enough resources, this prayer, you 607 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's painful to think about things 608 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: I did before now, and so I think it just 609 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: when I go into these conversations, I'm like, hey, you 610 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: there are some things going on in the world and 611 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: you may have consumed those narratives and it's okay to 612 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: change your mind, right. I think we make it so 613 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: not okay for people to change their mind, even though 614 00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: we're their goal is for them to change their mind. 615 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: And I'm like, why are you making it so hard? 616 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: It's always okay to change your mind. 617 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 2: I love that this one rings very true to me 618 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: mending a betrayal. So I had a good friend, good 619 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 2: girlfriend from growing up who I found with my boyfriend. Okay, wild, 620 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 2: wild story. Yeah, she's still my friend all those years later, 621 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 2: he's not my boyfriend. I decided the relationship was worth keeping. 622 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 2: All my other girlfriends were just like a gas, like, 623 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 2: how could you keep her in your life? I posted 624 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 2: it on TikTok one point, and the internet was a blaze. 625 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 2: They really disagreed with me too. So I want your 626 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 2: opinion on betrayal. If someone seems genuinely remorseful and wants 627 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 2: to reconcile, even if it was a horrible betrayal, how 628 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 2: do you decide if the relationship's worth rebuilding. 629 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: That's I want so many more details, but I feel like, okay, 630 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: I need to go to the TikTok a huge I 631 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: need to. I didn't think i'd need to beginning the conversation. 632 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: That's a great question, and I think a lot of 633 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: people wrestle with that point blank, shortest answer only you know. 634 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: And I think if I had a magic wand and 635 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: I could bop everybody in the world on the head 636 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: and give them one thing, it would be more self 637 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: trust because almost all the time we know, we know 638 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: when we need to lean and we know when we 639 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: need to step out. And I think something I talk 640 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: about even in the book is we've done a weird 641 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: thing with forgiveness where we made it feel like it's 642 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: like a moment or it always requires the person who 643 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: like did like did the betraying. And I always talk 644 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: about forgiveness as like an action verb, as like something 645 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: that we are actively doing. It's this ongoing process and 646 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: not this moment. And so I think as we move 647 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: through relationships with people who betrayal us, like keep a 648 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: pulse check on like that forgiveness barometer, and if we 649 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: have it, if we have it, and trust yourself, like 650 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: what's the internet know about the depth of your relationship. 651 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 2: I'd never heard anyone say that forgiveness is a verb 652 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 2: that is so beautiful and rings so true to me. 653 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 2: Even five six years later, I still find myself having 654 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 2: to actively forgive that I love her. Okay, partnering through change, 655 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 2: And I'm curious your thoughts on this, because you are married. 656 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 2: A lot of my friends that have long term partners, 657 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 2: those partners or my friends experience major shifts in their 658 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 2: identity in their beliefs in their careers. How do you 659 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 2: suggest navigating the tension between evolving individually and staying connected 660 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 2: as a couple. 661 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: I read this quote that I just loved so much, 662 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: and it was about relationships, and it said loving someone 663 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 1: is attending one thousand funerals of who they used to 664 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: be and one thousand birthday parties for who they were coming. 665 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: And I was like absolutely, wow. And I think in 666 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: partnership like that can often be just such a great 667 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: mirror to other relationships, to your own self and to 668 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: be able to celebrate and be engaged with those changes. 669 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: And I think a safe relationship that allows people to 670 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: say like, I think this is changing where I'm sensing this, 671 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: and you don't go like, well that's not who I 672 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: marri And you get to go like, oh, I'm curious 673 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: about that. I want to know more than I think. 674 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: You know, you set that foundation because it's all going 675 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: to change, it's all supposed to change, it's all meant 676 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: to change, you know. 677 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 3: So when it gets into the nitty gritty of like 678 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 3: practical application of all this, obviously that's work. It's a 679 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 3: lot tougher, Yeah, especially when you're when you're trying to 680 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 3: navigate between Okay, is the thing that I have a 681 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,800 Speaker 3: problem with? Is it someone's behavior or is it a 682 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 3: belief that I hold m that's core to their DNA. 683 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,800 Speaker 1: So how do you know when to set form boundaries? 684 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 1: That's a great question. I think when it comes to boundaries, 685 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: something I like to always say is that boundaries should 686 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,479 Speaker 1: always be like set and then reassessed, like this should 687 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: be a constant like thing that we do. And so 688 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: if you're not sure, if you're like, what's happening? Is 689 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: this the belief is this? Take some space. If you 690 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: can't hold space, take space is something I say all 691 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: the time, like, just take some space. I think sometimes 692 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: we think that the options are go no contact with 693 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: our family or stay permanently at the table now like 694 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 1: there is such a wide world in between, and so 695 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: set boundaries for whatever you need as you need them, 696 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: and then reassess. I think during a heightened political season, 697 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: during a heightened emotional season, during a heightened creative season, 698 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: my boundaries all change. If I'm writing a book, I'm like, 699 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: good luck hearing from me. They shift and change. And 700 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 1: the strongest boundary I have in my life, without question, 701 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: is with information. Rights with the news, it's with social media, 702 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: it's with like things that I can really that impact 703 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: my life. I think with relationships it's the same. I 704 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: think I was just talking to something about this who 705 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: was like, I don't want to like cut my family off, 706 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 1: but like, okay, it's just too much, like it thinks 707 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: to me, is too much. And I was like, Oh, 708 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: don't don't go that's this. These little boundaries are in 709 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 1: a sign that we're like throwing in the white towel. 710 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: It's giving us more confidence for when we do show up, 711 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: that we are showing up in the way that we want. 712 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: It's not like advantageous to be like, oh, I'm just 713 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: going to force myself to stay at the table, give 714 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: yourself some space, and then get back in there. 715 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 2: As we step into this new year, and maybe someone 716 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 2: listening is thinking about mending fenses with someone in their life, 717 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 2: or even trying to hold on to a bond that 718 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 2: feels really difficult, what is your advice for them? What 719 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 2: is step one? That's a great question. I feel like 720 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 2: step one is to always ask yourself if you are 721 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 2: willing and ready to do what it would take to 722 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 2: either keep that connection or men's that connections. I think 723 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 2: sometimes we just don't have it, and that's okay, and 724 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 2: sometimes we really are willing, but you have to know 725 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,399 Speaker 2: whether or not you are in that space. I think 726 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 2: I had a friend, she was my best friend at 727 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 2: the time that I got married, and I asked her 728 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 2: to be a brides and early wedding as one does, 729 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 2: and she said yes, and then when it really came 730 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 2: down to it, she said no because we were two 731 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 2: women getting married, and she worked at a church and 732 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 2: there was a lot of things, and this was like 733 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 2: my best friend and someone I loved dearly, and we 734 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 2: tried really hard to keep that connection for a while, 735 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 2: and then we just couldn't, like we just couldn't do it, 736 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 2: like we didn't have it, and we didn't talk for 737 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 2: about four years. A year and a half ago, we 738 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 2: met up for lunch and we were just such different people, 739 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 2: and we have become such different people that we had 740 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 2: everything we needed that we just didn't have four years ago. 741 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 2: And now we like talk every day again, and all 742 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,720 Speaker 2: my best friends WHOA And so I think sometimes urgency 743 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 2: is our greatest enemy. It's okay to have space. Everything 744 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 2: doesn't have to happen right now in one conversation in 745 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 2: one season. I'm super grateful that we didn't talk for 746 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 2: four years, because we wouldn't have been able to have 747 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 2: the relationship we have now if I would have just 748 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 2: like ripped my teeth through everything that bothered me that 749 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 2: I knew I couldn't get. 750 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: Past in the moment. 751 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 3: That was so wise, Britt, Before we go, how do 752 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 3: you exercise your curiosity on the daily? What do you 753 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 3: do to keep that muscle firing? 754 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: Oh? Great question. You can't give what you don't have, 755 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: and so I always try to use it on myself. First. 756 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,359 Speaker 1: I am endlessly curious about every emotion that comes up. 757 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: I think I used to live in a world in 758 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: a mindset where I'd be like, oh, I'm feeling this. No, 759 00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: I'm not like, shove that down, shove that down. I 760 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: think being curious about myself first makes me realize how 761 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: absolutely vast every single human being is that at any moment, 762 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: I am feeling a multitude of things. I'm like, why 763 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: am I feeling angry? I'm like, wait, no, what's the 764 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: day to day? Like? Oh my gosh, two years ago 765 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: I had this really hard thing. Is my body remembering that? Oh? 766 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: Should I bake this? Breadway, I kind of missed my dog. Wait, no, 767 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: that conversation my mom was kind of weird. Right, No, 768 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: that's me And that was thirty seconds this morning, right. 769 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: And so I think when I allow myself to be 770 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: generous to like all the nuanced eye hold, then I 771 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:33,359 Speaker 1: can serve to hold it for somewhere else. 772 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,399 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us on the right side, 773 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 3: brit Thanks for having me. Britt Baron is the author 774 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,760 Speaker 3: of Do You Still Talk to Grandma? It's available wherever 775 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 3: you get your books. 776 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 2: That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're joined by five 777 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,359 Speaker 2: time Olympic medalist Mary and Jones. She's here to talk 778 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 2: about overcoming failure and moving forward from past mistakes. You 779 00:39:58,520 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 2: don't want to miss this. 780 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 3: Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect 781 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 3: with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram 782 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 3: and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok oh, and 783 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 3: feel free to tag us at simone Voice and at 784 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 3: Danielle Robe. 785 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 2: Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app, 786 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,360 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 787 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,320 Speaker 1: See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.