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Speaker 3: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth,

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Speaker 3: you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact. But the

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Speaker 3: people in the dairy industry are. That's why they're working

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Speaker 3: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

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Speaker 3: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. How

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Speaker 3: is US dairy tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic

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Speaker 3: as dairy dot COM's Last sustainability to learn more. Hey, Jorge,

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Speaker 3: are you worried about energy conservation?

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Speaker 2: Uh? Not worried, but I try to do as much

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Speaker 2: of it as possible. Oh.

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Speaker 3: Is that because you're very environmentally responsible?

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Speaker 2: Nu, it's because I try to do this little exercise

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Speaker 2: as possible.

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Speaker 3: You're such an adult.

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Speaker 2: Hey, I'm doing it for the planet, not just for me.

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Speaker 3: Well on behalf of planet Earth. We're all very grateful

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Speaker 3: for your lazy attitude.

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Speaker 2: Oh thanks, My body is also very grateful, although maybe

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Speaker 2: not in the long term. Hi am Jorhemer, cartoonists and

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Speaker 2: the author of Oliver's Great Big Universe. Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Daniel. I'm a high energy particle physicist, but I

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Speaker 3: don't often feel very high energy or high. There were

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Speaker 3: times in my life when that was more true than Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I seem to remember those times. Yeah, But isn't it

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Speaker 2: high a relative term at least in physics? Like how

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Speaker 2: high is high energy? Can't you always go higher in energy?

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Speaker 3: You can always go higher in energy and what people

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Speaker 3: called high energy fifty years ago we now call nuclear physics.

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Speaker 3: So doesn't even.

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Speaker 2: Qualify what it's not low energy, It.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't even qualify as low energy physics.

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Speaker 2: I guess nobody wants to be called a low energy physicist.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, would you want to be called a low energy cartoonist?

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Speaker 2: Well, I am, and if you call me that it

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Speaker 2: would be accurate. But I guess you can call me that,

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Speaker 2: why not?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Sure? Well, high energy really means highest energy. And

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Speaker 3: as we keep pushing the boundaries of what we can achieve,

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Speaker 3: then yesterday's high energy collider is today's nuclear physics.

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Speaker 2: Hmm, sounds like a good slogan for the LGC. Yesterday's

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Speaker 2: high energy is now today's nuclear energy. But anyways, welcome

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Speaker 2: to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a

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Speaker 2: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: In which we use all of our energy to help

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Speaker 3: you understand the nature of the universe. We tear things apart,

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Speaker 3: we peer inside. We try to understand at a microscopic level,

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Speaker 3: how does everything work? Is there a story we can

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Speaker 3: tell about what's happening to the littlest bits in the

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Speaker 3: universe and how it comes together? To explain our reality.

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Speaker 2: That's right. We like to exp or the high energies,

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Speaker 2: the low energies, and all the energies in between that

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Speaker 2: there are in this universe to discover, to explore, to

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Speaker 2: learn about, and to blow your mind with.

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Speaker 3: And energy is a really central concept in physics and

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Speaker 3: in people's understanding of physics. We'd like to think about

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Speaker 3: things in terms of energy, little quantum fields vibrating with energy,

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Speaker 3: energy being passed between particles, energy used to create particles.

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Speaker 3: In some sense, physics is a study of.

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Speaker 2: Energy, and one that requires some amount of energy to explore, right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you can't just do physics from your couch,

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Speaker 2: can you.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it takes more energy to do

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Speaker 3: physics or cartooning, but you can sort of lie in

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Speaker 3: your couch and just think about the universe, you know,

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Speaker 3: the way the great theorists and the Greeks have done.

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Speaker 3: But absolutely to do experiments to explore the universe, to

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Speaker 3: investigate it deeply, you need to poke it, you need

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Speaker 3: to probe it, you need to interact with it, and

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Speaker 3: that does take some energy.

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Speaker 2: Well, I feel like energy is kind of a topic

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Speaker 2: that it's a word you learn as a kid, and

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Speaker 2: that everybody has heard of this word, and we all

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Speaker 2: use it every day in our everyday lives. But to

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Speaker 2: actually define energy is kind of tricky, isn't it, Not

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Speaker 2: just from a physics point of view, but also if

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Speaker 2: you ask somebody what energy is, you don't get an

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Speaker 2: easy answer.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, energy is a very loaded term, right. We have

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Speaker 3: a sense of like feeling like you have low energy

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Speaker 3: in the morning, or running out of energy to do

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Speaker 3: some chores or something. But it's one of these words

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Speaker 3: that physics that's redefined have a specific meaning, a very

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Speaker 3: crisp idea for what energy means. The way we also

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Speaker 3: have like meanings for force and work and other words

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Speaker 3: that we also use in everyday English without as precise definitions.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: But even those the simple terms have been changing in

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Speaker 2: physics over time, Right, Like the word the idea for

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Speaker 2: force has changed with quantum mechanics, hasn't it? Like it

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Speaker 2: used to be an invisible force that we feel towards

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Speaker 2: the Earth or the sun, But now they're talking that

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Speaker 2: maybe it's like a particle or something, it's an exchange

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Speaker 2: of particles.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the mechanism that explains it is definitely different. I

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Speaker 3: think the concept of force is a change in momentum

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Speaker 3: of something. Something in exchange of momentum essentially has been

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Speaker 3: pretty constant since Newton. Yeah, these things definitely can change.

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Speaker 3: And you know, for example, we've redefined gravity to not

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Speaker 3: even be a force. So what gets counted as a

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Speaker 3: force and what doesn't and how that all works definitely changes.

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Speaker 3: And we like to dig into these basic principles and say, like,

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Speaker 3: what does this really mean? Where does it come from?

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Speaker 3: Do the universe have to be this way? Is energy

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Speaker 3: essential to the universe? And one of the ways that

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Speaker 3: we do that is by noticing what the universe respects,

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Speaker 3: like what doesn't change in the universe, what's constant, what's conserved.

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Speaker 3: That gives you a clue about sort of what's important

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Speaker 3: to the underlying machinery of the universe.

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Speaker 2: Right, You kind of want to know what the rules

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Speaker 2: of the universe are, or what the principles of the

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Speaker 2: universe are by which it lets things happen in it,

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Speaker 2: right exactly.

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Speaker 3: And one of the deepest rules that people imagine the

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Speaker 3: universe follows is conservation of energy. That energy is somehow immutable,

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Speaker 3: that it can slosh between different kinds of energy kinetic

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Speaker 3: to potential to mass, to velocity to whatever. But the

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Speaker 3: energy has to go somewhere and has to come from somewhere.

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Speaker 3: That it's a basic component of the universe itself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very fundamental rule that people seem to

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Speaker 2: learn about even in high school physics. But is it

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Speaker 2: actually true? Does it always happen in this universe or

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Speaker 2: does it get broken at some levels, like the quantum levels?

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Speaker 2: And so to the end the podcast, we'll be asking

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Speaker 2: the question does quantum mechanics conserve energy? Now, when you

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Speaker 2: say quantum mechanics, do you mean like the field or

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Speaker 2: the people who study quantum.

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Speaker 3: Mechanics the mechanics of quantum physics.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, can you be a quantum mechanic like a car mechanic,

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Speaker 2: but at the quantum level.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, bring your fields in. They need some new parts.

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Speaker 3: We'll order them.

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Speaker 2: That's right, Your quantum carburetor needs to be swapped out exactly.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: In this case, we're talking about the rules of the

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Speaker 3: smallest bits in the universe, the tiniest little things, the electrons,

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Speaker 3: the positrons of photons, all the smallest stuff in the

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Speaker 3: universe seems to operate on different rules than the bigger

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Speaker 3: stuff in the universe. Baseballs and basketballs and rocks and

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Speaker 3: stuff that we're familiar with. And so while we're taught

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Speaker 3: that energy is concerned very generally, we're interested in whether

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Speaker 3: that's always true, and whether it's true at the smallest scale.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is a big question. Does quantum mechanics

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Speaker 2: conserve energy? And so, as usually, we were wondering how

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Speaker 2: many people out there had thought about this question, whether

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Speaker 2: this is a rule that can be broken at the

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Speaker 2: quantum level, or whether the whole universe follows it.

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Speaker 3: Thanks very much to everybody who answers these questions. If

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Speaker 3: you would like to receive a regular dose of tough

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Speaker 3: physics questions in your inbox, right to me too, questions

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Speaker 3: at Danielandhorge dot com, and I will send them to you.

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Speaker 2: Well, regular dose. Now, do these doses make you high

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Speaker 2: in physics?

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Speaker 3: These are microdoses, so yeah, oh, I see right, it's

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Speaker 3: more of a low key high. They're not supposed to

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Speaker 3: blow your mind. They're just supposed to color your experience

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Speaker 3: of the universe a little bit.

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Speaker 2: I see, it's more of a nuclear hut exactly.

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Speaker 3: It's not a high energy dose.

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Speaker 2: Well, think about it for a second. Do you think

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Speaker 2: quantum mechanics conserves energy. Here's what people had to say.

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Speaker 5: I think so, or at least the rate of decay

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Speaker 5: is so minute that we are not currently able to

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Speaker 5: detect it on a cosmological scale.

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Speaker 6: I think quantum mechanics conserves energy. I feel like it

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Speaker 6: would be big news if we found the law of

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Speaker 6: conservation of energy to be violated, though maybe it has

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Speaker 6: been and I just haven't seen that news. But the

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Speaker 6: notion of quantum fluctuations seems like it would violate that law.

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Speaker 6: Though I don't really understand quantum fluctuations.

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Speaker 7: I'm assuming it doesn't just because I remember listening to

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Speaker 7: your podcast on how energy actually isn't conserved in the universe.

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Speaker 7: So I'm assuming that quantum mechanics follows that as well.

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Speaker 7: But I don't actually know.

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Speaker 8: I'm not sure about this question. And like conserve in

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Speaker 8: what like in your book frequently asked questions about the universe,

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Speaker 8: you did say, like there's like a quantum foam, and

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Speaker 8: like when the universe is expanding, it's just connecting to

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Speaker 8: more quantum particles. I guess, so I'm gonna say I

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Speaker 8: don't know, because if you mean in the universe, like

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Speaker 8: not the growing section then no. But if you even

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Speaker 8: include all the other disconnected quantum phoam, then I'm not sure.

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Speaker 2: All right. People are on the fence about this. Some

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Speaker 2: people say it does, some people say they don't think so, well,

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Speaker 2: they're not sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was really surprised by this. I was expecting

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Speaker 3: people to rush to the defense of conservation of energy

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Speaker 3: and say it's a fundamental law of the universe.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's because we've had whole episodes where we say

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Speaker 2: that then she's not conserving the universe. That maybe influence

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Speaker 2: the answers here.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, people actually listening and absorbing the content.

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Speaker 2: Amazing, amazing, they're learning. Well, it's great that they are

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Speaker 2: listening to us. And because we have talked about this

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Speaker 2: idea of conservation of energy in the universe, and we've

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Speaker 2: talked about how it's not actually conserved in the universe

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Speaker 2: as a whole.

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Speaker 3: Right, that's right, And that was in the context of

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Speaker 3: sort of general relativity, thinking about the universe as it

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Speaker 3: expands and as space is changing, how we define energy

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Speaker 3: in that context, and that sort of blows a lot

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Speaker 3: of people's minds to understand that energy might not be

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Speaker 3: conserved in the universe. At the biggest scales, you know,

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Speaker 3: when you zoom all the way out and think about

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Speaker 3: how the universe is expanding and what happens to stuff

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Speaker 3: inside of it.

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Speaker 2: Right, because in the other episode we talked about how

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Speaker 2: the universe is expanding due to dark energy, and basically

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Speaker 2: like there's more space being created all the time out

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Speaker 2: of nothing, which means that energy sort of being added

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Speaker 2: to the universe, created in the universe out of nothing.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's right. And your comment out of nothing,

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Speaker 3: I think says a lot. You know, it implies that

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Speaker 3: energy needs to come from somewhere, and so when you

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Speaker 3: say energy is created, you have to give some explanation

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Speaker 3: for where it comes from, even if you're saying out

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Speaker 3: of nothing. But this tells us that energy isn't something

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Speaker 3: fundamental to the universe. That it can go up and

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Speaker 3: it can go down, like lots of things in the universe,

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Speaker 3: like the number of people in swimming pools, is not

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Speaker 3: a constant number of the universe. It can go up

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Speaker 3: and it can go down.

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Speaker 2: How do you know, Are you sure I'm.

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Speaker 3: In the middle of an extensive worldwide experiment to measure

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Speaker 3: the number of people.

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Speaker 2: A moment, Yes, Oh, you thought you were going to.

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Speaker 3: Challenge me on that and call me out. But actually

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Speaker 3: I've been doing this in preparation for five years just

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Speaker 3: to make that casual comment.

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Speaker 2: You know, somehow I don't believe you.

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Speaker 3: Then await from my paper in Nature. Okay, it's coming

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Speaker 3: out soon, I promise.

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Speaker 2: Sure. Let's see the draft. Read me a poll paragraph

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Speaker 2: from the draft right now.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I can't disembargo it because it's too high profile.

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Speaker 3: I see I signed an NDA. What am I going

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Speaker 3: to No, obviously I have not done that experiment.

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Speaker 2: A nuclear disclosure agreement, which means it's really low.

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Speaker 3: But clearly there are things in the universe that do

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Speaker 3: change things that are not fundamental to the universe, while

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Speaker 3: there are other things that are fundamental, like momentum. We

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Speaker 3: think momentum is conserved in the universe, and that comes

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Speaker 3: from a really deep symmetry about space and time that

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Speaker 3: the experiments you do anywhere in the universe should give

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Speaker 3: you the same answer. That doesn't matter where you put

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Speaker 3: your origin in space. The rules of physics don't care.

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Speaker 3: And that gives you directly, as a consequence of Nuther's theorem,

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Speaker 3: momentum conservation. But energy is not in that same category,

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Speaker 3: and energy can go down and it can go up.

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Speaker 3: Like when the universe expands, you get in new space,

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Speaker 3: and that space comes with energy. But also energy gets

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Speaker 3: decreased because as space expands, it reddens the wavelengths of

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Speaker 3: all the photons inside of it. Take for example, the

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Speaker 3: cosmic microwave background radiation from the early universe. When it

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Speaker 3: was created, it was very high energy. That plasma was

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Speaker 3: super dup or hot. It was thousands of degrees. But

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Speaker 3: it's been stretched out by the expansion of the universe

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Speaker 3: to very long wavelengths and now it's like three degrees. Calvin,

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Speaker 3: where do that energy go? It didn't go anywhere, it's

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Speaker 3: just gone.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's not gone, it's just gonna spread out, is it.

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Speaker 3: No, there's less energy in those photons. Those photons have

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Speaker 3: gone from high energy to low energy.

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Speaker 2: Because they got stretched out.

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Speaker 3: But the total energy is also different. It's not just

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Speaker 3: the energy density.

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Speaker 2: But they're longer now, the photos are longer. Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: isn't that where the energy went.

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Speaker 3: The energy of those photons is less. They're also longer,

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Speaker 3: but the energy of those photons is less. If you

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Speaker 3: stretch space, the photons get redder, which means they have

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Speaker 3: less energy.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess this is what I mean. Because the

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Speaker 2: idea of energy, the concept of energy can really vary

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Speaker 2: into a lot of these arguments about whether it can

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Speaker 2: be conserved or not. I feel like maybe they depend

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Speaker 2: on a good definition of energy, and so maybe for

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Speaker 2: folks we should talk about what energy actually is. How

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Speaker 2: do physicists define it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wish I knew what energy was.

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Speaker 2: Wait, what.

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Speaker 3: Energy is a really slippery topic. It's something we've been

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Speaker 3: struggling with over the last few decades to really define.

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Speaker 3: We have some very crisp but unsatisfying definitions of energy.

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Speaker 3: You know, in some cases you can say energy is

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Speaker 3: the thing that's conserved over time, you know, so you

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Speaker 3: can define it to be something that's conserved. Really, I

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Speaker 3: think a better way to define energy is to talk

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Speaker 3: about like the forms it can take. You know, Like

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Speaker 3: there's kinetic energy, which means energy of motion. Something is

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Speaker 3: moving that has energy. There's potential energy, the energy of configuration.

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Speaker 3: Like a book is sitting on a shelf, there's energy

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Speaker 3: stored in that. You know, it takes energy to put

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Speaker 3: the book on the shelf. Mass, for example, is a

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Speaker 3: representation of internal stored energy. Put a bunch of photons

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Speaker 3: into a box, they have energy. That box now has

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Speaker 3: more mass. All these are different ways you can calculate energy,

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Speaker 3: and if you add them all up, you get the

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Speaker 3: total energy. And so that's sort of how we define energy.

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Speaker 3: But you know it's a little hand wavy.

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Speaker 2: Wait. Wait, wait, so I was right earlier when I

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Speaker 2: said that we I don't really know what energy kind

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Speaker 2: of is, but you made it seem like we did.

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Speaker 3: No, we don't really know what energy is in the

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Speaker 3: broadest sense, but we can define something, say this is

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Speaker 3: what we call energy. I don't know if it really

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Speaker 3: captures our full experience of energy, but yeah, we can

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Speaker 3: write down a formula for what energy is.

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Speaker 2: But I guess the question is what did those things

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Speaker 2: have in common? And why do you use the same

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Speaker 2: word for all of them? The kinetic energy, potential, energy,

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Speaker 2: you know, energy of mass. Why do you use the

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Speaker 2: same word for all of those things?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, great question, And the reason is that in classical mechanics,

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Speaker 3: at least you know, things moving around at our scale

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Speaker 3: at or fairly low speeds, we notice that they can

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Speaker 3: turn back and forth into each other. Like you take

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Speaker 3: that book on the shelf, it has potential energy and

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Speaker 3: no kinetic energy. You push it off the shelf. Now

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Speaker 3: it's speeding up towards the ground. It's losing potential energy

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Speaker 3: and gaining kinetic energy. So we notice that these things

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Speaker 3: can turn into each other, and therefore we group them

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Speaker 3: together into one big category. We notice that, at least

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Speaker 3: in classical mechanics, the total the sum of them all,

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Speaker 3: does stay constant. The like if you're out of all

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Speaker 3: the potential energy and all the kinetic energy at one moment,

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Speaker 3: you do it again later you find you get the

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Speaker 3: same answer.

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Speaker 2: And how does that relate to the energy of a phototon,

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Speaker 2: which you mentioned earlier.

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Speaker 3: So now we're departing classical mechanics a little bit. We're

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Speaker 3: talking about a quantum object, but we can still think

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Speaker 3: about the energy of a photon. A photon has kinetic

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Speaker 3: energy because it's in motion, it's always in motion. It

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Speaker 3: has only kinetic energy. So photons definitely have energy.

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Speaker 2: Well, it seems like maybe the common factor is the

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Speaker 2: idea of motion, like things moving have energy to them,

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Speaker 2: and things that can move in the future or can

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Speaker 2: cost things to move, or like the potential to cost

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Speaker 2: something to move is what maybe you would call energy.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I think that puts kinetic energy in a more

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Speaker 3: primary position than potential energy, which I'm not sure is justified.

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Speaker 3: I think there really are at its core two different

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Speaker 3: kinds of energy there stored energy, potential energy and kinetic energy.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure which one would be more fundamental.

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Speaker 2: And so are those the only two kinds of energy?

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Speaker 2: So you have in classical physics kinetic and potential.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, those are the two forms. People might think, what

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Speaker 3: about mass? What is mass? Is that kinetic energy or

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00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,879
Speaker 3: potential energy? It's sort of a special case. It's just

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Speaker 3: sort of a label we give some kinds of energy

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Speaker 3: if they're stored internally, Like if you have gluons inside

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00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,360
Speaker 3: a proton, they have a bunch of kinetic energy they're

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Speaker 3: zooming around. They also have potential energy of their bonds.

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Speaker 3: All that energy is inside the proton, so we call

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Speaker 3: that mass. So mass is sort of a label we

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Speaker 3: give to some energy, but it's not on the same

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Speaker 3: level as like kinetic and potential it's not its own

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Speaker 3: kind of energy.

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Speaker 2: So then if an eight year old asked you, hey,

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Speaker 2: doctor Whitson, what is energy? What would you answer?

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Speaker 3: I would say, I've had this nightmare scenario many times

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Speaker 3: and I have no idea how to respond.

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00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:46,439
Speaker 2: You would their face, Ah, run away? No, seriously, like,

402
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,679
Speaker 2: what would you say, you have to say something, what

403
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,119
Speaker 2: would you say, I'll get you started. It's a quantity that.

404
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,840
Speaker 3: I'd say. Energy is something that makes things move, but

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Speaker 3: it's also something you can store. That's my best shot.

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00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,080
Speaker 2: It's almost like a liquid or something.

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Speaker 3: You know, for a long time people did imagine that

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Speaker 3: energy in the form of heat, was a liquid that

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00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:13,240
Speaker 3: flowed between things. But it's not a physical quantity in itself.

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Speaker 3: It's a description of the physical state of other quantities.

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Speaker 3: Like a liquid can have energy, but so consolids. It's

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Speaker 3: not like when energy flows from one thing to another,

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Speaker 3: there's some physical substance that moves between it. It changes

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Speaker 3: the state of those objects.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess I'm a little surprised you're having so

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Speaker 2: much trouble just defining energy, which is pretty interesting. But

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Speaker 2: as you said, I think one thing that we do

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Speaker 2: sort of know about it is that in some cases

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Speaker 2: it's conserved and maybe in some cases it's not so. Well,

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Speaker 2: let's dig into the question and when it's conserved, is

421
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Speaker 2: it conserved at the quantum level or is it not

422
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,399
Speaker 2: so let's dig into that, but first let's take a

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Speaker 2: quick break.

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475
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476
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478
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480
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482
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Speaker 2: All right, we are mustering up the energy to talk

492
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: about something that apparently physicists can't define. Energy, such a

493
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 2: basic word that even little kids use, everyone uses in

494
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 2: their daily lives. But it seems, Daniel, that it's something

495
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 2: physicists can't really define very well. Maybe only mathematically you

496
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 2: can define it. Is that kind of the case.

497
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, And as you'll see when we get into the

498
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 3: quantum system, this is going to be even trickier. And

499
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 3: physicists disagree about how to define energy and whether we

500
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 3: can even define it In terms of quantum systems.

501
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 2: Well, it seems like we don't even need to get

502
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 2: through the already don't know how to define it exactly.

503
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 3: And that's why I want to be upfront about how

504
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 3: complicated and confusing this topic is, even in the easy case,

505
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,239
Speaker 3: because when we get to the hard case, it's going

506
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 3: to get even trickier. So I did my best to

507
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 3: give you, like my understanding of energy, but if you

508
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 3: look at the official definition of energy, I find it's

509
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 3: even less satisfying. Like if you just google energy and

510
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 3: you ask Wikipedia or chat GPT, like, what is energy?

511
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 2: Well, it's you know, legit sources, legit sources.

512
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 3: They say energy is the quantitative property that is transferred

513
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 3: to a body, and that doesn't really even tell you

514
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 3: what it is. It's like, okay, well it can move

515
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 3: from one thing to another, but what is it? Man?

516
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 3: It doesn't really answer that question.

517
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 2: Well, that's kind of what I meant before, is that

518
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 2: it's a quantity. Is basically kind of the only way

519
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 2: you physicis know how to define it, right. It's a quantity.

520
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: It's something that you can measure that can be a

521
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 2: lot or a little, which you seem to be able

522
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: to measure about things, and that sometimes seems to be conserved.

523
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 3: So mathematically we can write down a formula that defines it,

524
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 3: and then it's defined in terms of things we can measure,

525
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 3: like velocity and position and stuff like this. And it

526
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 3: turns out that if you're write it in certain ways,

527
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 3: then that number doesn't change. The internal values can slash

528
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 3: back and forth, but the total doesn't change. That's sort

529
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 3: of like the crispest most mathematical definition. But I think

530
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 3: what we're proving forward is like what does it mean philosophically?

531
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 3: Like what are the implications of that? And that's much trickier.

532
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 2: Well, you seem to not want to give primacy to

533
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 2: kinetic energy, but in a way, that's kind of like

534
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 2: our most direct experience of energy, which is motion, right,

535
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 2: Like if something has a lot of energy to either

536
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 2: moving fast, or it's hot or it's exploding. For us,

537
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: in our experience of the universe, energy is basically things

538
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 2: moving fast or things that can make things move fast.

539
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you're talking about the experience of it, then

540
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 3: you more directly experience motion than stored energy. It's energy

541
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 3: you don't really experience when it's stored because it's just

542
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 3: being stored. It's when it's transformed into kinetic energy that

543
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 3: you're experiencing it, Like if you zap yourself on a battery,

544
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 3: it's the motion of those electrons being transformed from the

545
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 3: potential into their kinetic energy that's zapping you.

546
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 2: All right. So then you said that sometimes it's conserved

547
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 2: and sometimes it's not. So when is energy conserved in

548
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 2: a classical way?

549
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 3: In classical sense, energy is only conserved when space time

550
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 3: is not curved and when space time is not changing.

551
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 3: So if space time is fixed, like you have flat

552
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 3: space time, meaning you shoot two photons and they stay

553
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 3: parallel to each other, then you can expect energy to

554
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 3: be conserved. But if that space is changing, like it's

555
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 3: expanding the way our universe is, then the general relativity

556
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,719
Speaker 3: energy is not conserved. Even more generally, anytime you have

557
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 3: curved space in general relativity, you do not have conservation

558
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 3: of energy. So, for example, black holes colliding do not

559
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 3: conserve energy.

560
00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 2: Wait, what what do you mean.

561
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 3: Black holes collide? You have the collision of two quare

562
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 3: curved bits of space, and what comes out of that

563
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 3: is not the sum of what goes into that. You're

564
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 3: not guaranteed that in general relativity, but is.

565
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 2: In space always curved like uncurving space around me, and

566
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 2: yet I don't seem to have infinite energy.

567
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 3: That's right, you do not have infinite energy, and you

568
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 3: are curving space around you. But the total amount of

569
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 3: energy in the system changes in time in general relativity,

570
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 3: and it gets really fuzzy and weird because general relativity

571
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 3: is really hard to think about. In some reference frames.

572
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 3: According to generalativity, energy is conserved and others it's not.

573
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:34,959
Speaker 3: Depends sort of on how you're looking at things.

574
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 2: Okay, it sort of sounds like you're saying like, if

575
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 2: you don't think about general relativity, then you can assume

576
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: that energy is being conserved. If you assume that there's

577
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 2: general relativity and things are being space is being bent

578
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: like around black holes or the expansion of the universe,

579
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: then you can't assume that energy is being conserved.

580
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 3: As long as we're above the quantum level.

581
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: Right, So it's mostly like whether or not you ignore

582
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 2: the bending of space time exactly.

583
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 3: If you can ignore the bending or expansion of space,

584
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 3: then classically you can think of energy as conserved.

585
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: Right, And so we talked about that the universe is expanding,

586
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 2: and so therefore, energy is not being conserved. And we

587
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: talked about two black holes colliding. Energy is not being

588
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: conserved there. So now the question of the episode is

589
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: when you get down to the quantum level, is energy

590
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 2: still conserved even though maybe there's no space time bending

591
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 2: at the quantum level. If you assume there's no bending

592
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 2: at the quantum level, does energy get conserved?

593
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we have to assume there's no space time

594
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 3: bending at the quantum level because we don't know how

595
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 3: to do quantum mechanics when space is curved and you

596
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 3: have gravity, and gravity for particles is something we don't understand.

597
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 3: So let's assume space is totally flat and we have objects,

598
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 3: you know, like baseballs and rocks for which we think

599
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 3: energy is conserved, and then zoomed down to the quantum

600
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 3: level and try to understand when you have photons and

601
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 3: electrons instead of rocks and baseballs, is energy still conserved?

602
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 3: And really the deep question is like is energy conservation

603
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 3: something that's through and through the universe at every scale

604
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 3: or is this something that emerges only at the scale

605
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 3: we experience it out of something that operates totally differently,

606
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 3: because remember, quantum mechanics breaks all the rules of classical physics.

607
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 3: It says things don't actually have well defined positions and locations,

608
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 3: and lots of the things that emerge at our level

609
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 3: are not true at the quantum level. So it's not

610
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 3: guaranteed that everything about our experience will be translated down

611
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 3: to the quantum level.

612
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: All right, So then let's answer the question, does quantum

613
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 2: mechanics can serve energy or not?

614
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 3: So the short answer is we don't know.

615
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 2: Surprise, surprise, but let's talk about it anyways.

616
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 3: The slightly less short answer is, it depends on what

617
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 3: you think is happening at the quantum level, mostly about

618
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 3: what happens when you try to measure energy.

619
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 2: What do you mean? So I guess because it's quantum mechanics,

620
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 2: you have to measure things. That's very importing quantum mechanics.

621
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 2: So you're saying, we have to answer this question with

622
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: this idea in mind.

623
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So let's start off the easy case without

624
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 3: measurements and have a picture in our minds or what's happening.

625
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 3: You know, Quantum mechanics tells us that there are probabilities

626
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 3: for various things to happen, and we can calculate those

627
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 3: probabilities using the rules of quantum mechanics, and those probabilities propagate.

628
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 3: You have two electrons heading towards each other, they might

629
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 3: scatter off each other and go that way, they might

630
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 3: pass right through each other. All those probabilities are sort

631
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 3: of live until somebody actually asks the question and makes

632
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 3: a measurement using a classical object and you know, tries

633
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 3: to take a picture of it. Until then sort of

634
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,479
Speaker 3: have all the possibilities live. So that's quantum mechanics without measurement,

635
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 3: you know, that's what we're imagining is happening when we're

636
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 3: not looking. And in that scenario we can ask, well,

637
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 3: is energy conserved? Like when all those probabilities are slashing around,

638
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 3: the electrons are maybe bouncing off each other and maybe not,

639
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 3: is energy conserved there? And already we kind of run

640
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 3: into trouble because we don't really know how to define

641
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 3: energy here. Like what if you have a quantum system

642
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 3: and has a few different possible states, a low energy

643
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 3: state and a high energy state. How do you define

644
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 3: the energy of it? Is it like the weighted average

645
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 3: of the probabilities of the various is it something else?

646
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 3: I've had conversations with a bunch of physicists this week

647
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 3: to try to sort out what people think energy is.

648
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 3: And some people say, you can't define energy in that context,

649
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 3: and other people say, no, it's definitely the weighted average

650
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 3: of the various probabilities.

651
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: Right, I think, meaning maybe for people who are not

652
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 2: super familiar with quantum mechanics. So in quantum mechanics, particles

653
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 2: and things like that aren't just in one state, like

654
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: a baseball sitting on your table. It's like it's doing

655
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 2: multiple things at the same time. It's here, it's a

656
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 2: little bit there, it's moving in this direction a little bit,

657
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,239
Speaker 2: but it's also has the probability to be moving in

658
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 2: this other direction. And so you're saying that maybe one

659
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 2: way to measure its energy, or to think about its

660
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 2: energy is like, if it has a fifty percent probability

661
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: of going this way, then you take that energy and

662
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: multiply by a half. And if it has a certain

663
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 2: probility that it's moving this way with that velocity, like

664
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 2: a twenty five percent probability, then you maybe multiply that

665
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: energy by a quarter, and then you would add it

666
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 2: all up and maybe that would kind of give you

667
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: an average of its energy.

668
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Like, if it has a fifty percent chance

669
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 3: of having twenty five jewels of energy in a fifty

670
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 3: percent chance of having seventy five jewels, then you say, well,

671
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: I'm going to average those two. I'm gonna say its

672
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 3: energy is fifty jewels because on average that's what it has.

673
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 3: And here allowing the particle to still have both probabilities

674
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 3: to say, oh, maybe it's in the lower energy state,

675
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 3: maybe it's in the higher energy state.

676
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 2: Right, it's in a superposition, it's with alive and dead.

677
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: Then you said, some of your physicist friends said, you

678
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: can't do that, like that's not even that doesn't make sense.

679
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they say you can't do that because you

680
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 3: can't measure that. Right, you never measure the fifty. Like

681
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 3: if you went and asked the question, all right, we

682
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 3: have the particle in this state, go measure the energy.

683
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 3: You're gonna get twenty five or you're gonna get seventy five.

684
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 3: You're never going to get the average. It's like saying

685
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 3: the average number of children in the US is two

686
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 3: point four, but nobody actually has two point four children, right,

687
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 3: And so in the same way, you'll never see this

688
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 3: particle have that energy so in what sense is that

689
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 3: the energy of the particle. That's sort of the complaint.

690
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: That's kind of a fundamental problem with quantum mechanics. Like

691
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 2: it's you know, the cat is alive and dead. Obviously

692
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 2: the cat can't be alive if you see the caddies

693
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 2: can't be both. But in a quantum sense it is both.

694
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 3: In a quantum sense, it is both. In quantum sense,

695
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 3: we need a new idea for what these things mean,

696
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 3: Like what does position mean in a quantum sense? Well,

697
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 3: you know, for a particle that you haven't measured, it's

698
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 3: not really well defined. There's only a probability where is

699
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,959
Speaker 3: the particle Actually, well, it's not anywhere. Actually, So these

700
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 3: concepts that are so important to us at the macroscopic

701
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 3: scale have to take different meanings. We have to do

702
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 3: this like philosophical extrapolation. And this is a problem with energy.

703
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 3: For example, say we have the particle and has two

704
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 3: different possibilities, the twenty five jewel and the seventy five jewel.

705
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 3: Then you go and you measure and it turns out

706
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 3: it has seventy five jewels. Well, if a minute ago

707
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 3: you said it had fifty jewels, because that was the

708
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 3: average now you've measured it and you said you have

709
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 3: seventy five jewels. Where did that twenty five jewels come from?

710
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 10: Right?

711
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 3: And so boom right there, you have a violation of

712
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 3: conservation of energy if that's how you define energy before

713
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 3: you measure it.

714
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 2: Wait, say it again. It is energy suddenly appear.

715
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 3: So if you start out with a particle we were

716
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 3: just talking about, it has a fifty percent chance so

717
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 3: having twenty five jewels, and a fifty percent chance of

718
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 3: having seventy five jewels. So we say, okay, we define

719
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 3: the energy of it to be fifty jewels because that's

720
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 3: the average. Now you go and you measure it, and

721
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 3: you measure it to have seventy five jewels for example,

722
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 3: Then according to our definition of energy, it's gone from

723
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 3: having fifty jewels to having seventy five jewels, And so

724
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,240
Speaker 3: where did that energy come from?

725
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: It didn't come from anywhere. It just said before it

726
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 2: was a guess about what its energy was. It was

727
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,720
Speaker 2: kind of like the expectations of it or the average

728
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 2: of what we think its energy was. But then the

729
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: second instance is what we measured its energy. So they

730
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 2: shouldn't be a surprise if it's more or less should it.

731
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 3: So you're saying those are really two different things. One

732
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 3: is an actual energy because you've measured it. The other

733
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 3: is just some estimation of what we might measure, but

734
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 3: not really the energy.

735
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 2: Well, and it is in the quantum sense, right, like

736
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 2: it's alive and it's dead before I look at the

737
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 2: cat in the box and then I wanted to open

738
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 2: the box. It's alive with it. It's not like the

739
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 2: cat suddenly came back to life.

740
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 3: And I think this comes down to a question of

741
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 3: like interpretation. You know, what is happening there? It does

742
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 3: the particle secretly already have seventy five jewels and now

743
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 3: we're measuring it and discovering it. You know, is the

744
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 3: uncertainty there or reflection of our lack of knowledge about

745
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 3: something that's actually already determined, or something that really isn't

746
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 3: determined until we measure it. The particle really is in

747
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 3: a superposition of those two states. If it really isn't

748
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 3: determined until we measure it, then we do have to

749
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 3: kind of ask, like, where does the energy come from

750
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 3: when the universe decides to make that seventy five jewel

751
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 3: particle instead of the twenty five jewel particle.

752
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 2: Well, I guess in the same way that you can

753
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 2: ask if you find that the cat is alive, how

754
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 2: did the cat come alive? It was if it was

755
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 2: alive and dead before you open the box.

756
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 3: Right, But the difference between the two states of the

757
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 3: cat doesn't violate the conservation of energy, which we thought

758
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 3: was maybe a fundamental rule in the universe. That violates

759
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 3: the conservation of the number of dead cats, which nobody

760
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 3: really thinks it's.

761
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 2: A conservation I hope not well or well. And this

762
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 2: says that we think that it's impossible for a cat

763
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 2: to go from being dead to being alive. Right.

764
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 3: I think if we're going to make the analogy to

765
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 3: the shortening your cat experiment, and then you want to

766
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 3: ask the question, is the cat alive before it's measured?

767
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 3: And the answer I think a lot of people would

768
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 3: give is it's neither alive nor dead. It has the

769
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 3: probability of being both. And then to extrapolate that philosophically

770
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 3: back to our particle, you'd say, well, the particle doesn't

771
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 3: really have twenty five or seventy five jewels, It just

772
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 3: has a probability of being both. And energy is not

773
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 3: really well defined. So I think one answer there is

774
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 3: to say, well, energy is not really defined without measurements,

775
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 3: so you can't answer this question, and the others to say, no,

776
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 3: that's the definition of energy, and there is violation of

777
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 3: conservation of energy. So you either have to give up

778
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 3: an understanding of what energy means for quantum particles or

779
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 3: you have to give up energy conservation.

780
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 2: All right, So it seems like the moment you measure

781
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 2: a quantum particle is super important because it's so fuzzy

782
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 2: before you measure it, and it's so crisp after you

783
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 2: measure it, and so you kind of fall into a

784
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 2: trap to try to compare the energy before that moment

785
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 2: and after that moment. You know, you could interpret it

786
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 2: as saying that energy is not conserved, or you could

787
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 2: interpret it saying, well, you know, there's no definition of

788
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: energy before you measure it, and so therefore don't even

789
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 2: worry about energy classivation exactly.

790
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 3: But there's really important loophole that we're overlooking here, and

791
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 3: that's the measurement itself. Some people argue that energy isn't conserved,

792
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 3: that this extra energy must come from the measurement, that

793
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 3: we're only violating conservation of energy because we're not including

794
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 3: the full system. Right, energy is only conserved inside a

795
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 3: closed system where you don't have energy transfer anyway. Right,

796
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 3: Like energy is not conserved for a battery. As you

797
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 3: use it, it's energy is decreasing. But if you include

798
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 3: where that energy is going, usually it is concerned. So

799
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 3: some people argue, ah, what about the measurement. In order

800
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 3: to measure something, you have to like poke it, you

801
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 3: have to interact with it. Maybe you're adding that energy

802
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 3: when you're making that measurement and things do balance out

803
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 3: in the end.

804
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 2: Wait, what that was very confusing. Can you give me

805
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 2: an example.

806
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 3: So let's say you want to measure this particle and

807
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 3: you want to say it doesn't have seventy five jewels

808
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 3: or twenty five jewels. How do you measure things about

809
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 3: a quantum particles? You have to balance another quantum particle

810
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 3: off of them. So shoot this electron with a photon,

811
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 3: then measure where that photon goes and use that to

812
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 3: detect what the energy of your particle was. Well, now

813
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 3: you're shooting your electron with a photon, which is going

814
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 3: to change its energy. And so people argue, when you're

815
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 3: doing this, the energy that gives that electron. Seventy five

816
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 3: jewels comes from that photon somehow.

817
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 2: But then wouldn't you measure that the overall energy went

818
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 2: down because you would measure the photon after it hits

819
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: the electron, and you would see that it was had

820
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 2: less energy exactly.

821
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 3: So this is the game people try to play in

822
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 3: order to recover conservation of energy for quantum mechanics. They say,

823
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 3: this argument is flawed because you're not taking into account

824
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 3: the energy of the measurement. So there's a whole cottage

825
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 3: industry and a bunch of paper. It's recently about whether

826
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 3: it's possible to recover it using the measurement or whether

827
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 3: that's a red herring.

828
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 2: Well, the whole thing could be a red herring, right,

829
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 2: Like it could be that it just doesn't make sense

830
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 2: to talk about energy before the measurement.

831
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 3: It could be, and that actually depends also on your

832
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 3: interpretation of quantum mechanics. We're talking right now in the

833
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 3: Copenhagen interpretation, which has this whole idea that there's a

834
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 3: superposition and when you make a measurement it collapses to

835
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 3: one of those options. That's just one view of quantum mechanics,

836
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 3: and our argument about the energy non conservation depends on

837
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 3: that view. It turns out in other views of quantum

838
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 3: mechanics they tell a whole different story.

839
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,959
Speaker 2: All right, well, let's get into what these other views

840
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 2: of quantum mechanics are and what they say about the

841
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 2: conservation of cat energy or not. So let's dig into that.

842
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 2: But first, let's take another quick break.

843
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 3: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

844
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 3: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

845
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 3: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

846
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 3: But the people in the dairy industry are. US dairy

847
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 3: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

848
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 3: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working

849
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,760
Speaker 3: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

850
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 3: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

851
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 3: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four times.

852
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 3: The same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn,

853
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 3: and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy tackling greenhouse gases?

854
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 3: Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn the methane from

855
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 3: maneuver into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and

856
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 3: electric cars. So the next time you grab a slice

857
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 3: of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know that

858
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 3: dairy farmers and processors around the country are using the

859
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 3: latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense dairy

860
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 3: products we love with less of an impact. Visit us

861
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 3: dairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

862
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 11: There are children, friends, and families walking, riding on passing

863
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 11: the roads every day. Remember they're real people with loved

864
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 11: ones who need them to get home safely. Protect our

865
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 11: cyclists and pedestrians because they're people too. Go safely, California

866
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 11: From the California Office of Traffic Safety and Caltrans.

867
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 12: It's time for today's Lucky Land Horoscope with Victoria Cash

868
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 12: Life Scotten Mundane. So shake up the daily routine and

869
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 12: be adventurous with a trip to Lucky Land. You know

870
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 12: what they say. Your chance to win starts with a spin,

871
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Speaker 2: Terms apply. All right, we're talking about energy, whether it's

892
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 2: conserved in the universe, is it conserved at the quantum level?

893
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 2: And I think we've established that it's a minefield of

894
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 2: confusion for everybody. Some people might say, does it even

895
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 2: make sense to talk about energy before you measure something?

896
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: And you know, it doesn't make sense to talk about

897
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,479
Speaker 2: whether the cat is alive or dead before you open

898
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,959
Speaker 2: the box. And some people might say that it does

899
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 2: kind of matter, right, or that if you discovered the

900
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 2: cat to be a liver before or after, maybe you

901
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: killed the cat when you open the box. That's kind

902
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 2: of what you're saying exactly.

903
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,760
Speaker 3: And it's amazing to me that this is a topic

904
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 3: of recent discussion. This is not like something that Boor

905
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 3: and Heisenberg argued about and figured it out in nineteen

906
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 3: thirty seven their papers about this. Like last year, you know,

907
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 3: people are still debating what energy even means in quantum mechanics,

908
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 3: like sort this out. Folks had to for one hundred years.

909
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 3: You think that would be enough time to figure out

910
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 3: basic stuff about quantum mechanics.

911
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, can't you just run an experiment to figure this out?

912
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 2: Like if measuring an electron somehow adds energy to it

913
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 2: or creates energy, can't you just measure that? Can you

914
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,399
Speaker 2: just design an experiment where you shoot a photon ad

915
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: an electron.

916
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 3: So people are trying to design experiments and the crucial

917
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 3: thing is designing an experiment where you think the measurement

918
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 3: will not influence the energy of the system. That's the goal,

919
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 3: because then you can have an internal system and an

920
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 3: external system, and you can isolate it and say this

921
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 3: is the whole system. So you want to try to

922
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 3: separate your measuring device from the energy of the system.

923
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 2: Wait, wait, do you mean like they're trying to come

924
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 2: up with how to measure something without measuring it.

925
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 3: Well, they want to measure it without changing its energy,

926
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 3: So they want a energy independent measuring system.

927
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 2: But I guess if you shoot a photon a an electron,

928
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 2: don't you know how much energy the photon has when

929
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,919
Speaker 2: you shot it, so that you can take it into

930
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 2: account later when it comes out? Like, why is this

931
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 2: problem so hard?

932
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 3: Well, every quantum object has an uncertainty to it, So

933
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 3: you shoot a photon at it, you try to generate

934
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 3: photons with specific energy, but those photons will also have

935
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 3: an uncertainty to them, and that uncertainty propagates through your

936
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 3: whole experiment. So what you want to try to do

937
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 3: is set up a scenario where the uncertainty you're adding

938
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 3: by your measurement is smaller than the difference in the

939
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 3: energy between the two states of the thing that you're measuring.

940
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 3: So you want to like try to use or something

941
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 3: really low energy to measure a really big difference.

942
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 2: I guess it's kind of like, you know, you're trying

943
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 2: to figure out if the cat is alive or dead

944
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 2: in the box, and you're setting in a cat to

945
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 2: do it, but it turns out that the scientist cat

946
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 2: is also a quantum object, so it could also be

947
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 2: a live or dead, in which case you don't really

948
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 2: know the scientist cat is killing the other cat exactly.

949
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 3: So what you want to do is try to send

950
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 3: in like a tiny miniature kitten that you can argue

951
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 3: is going to not influence whether your cat is alive

952
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 3: or dead as much as.

953
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 2: Possible, or that you know for sure if it's a

954
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 2: live or dead.

955
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 3: Or the uncertainty on it is smaller than the uncertainty

956
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 3: on the thing you're trying to measure. So people come

957
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,800
Speaker 3: up with these crazy clever experiments where you try to

958
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 3: use really low energy device measure a very high energy

959
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 3: difference in the possible states of the object. So the

960
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 3: thing you're measuring is not influencing the state enough to

961
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 3: change the answer.

962
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: Oh, I see, Yeah, like you said, you want to

963
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 2: send in a scientist kitty whose state. Whether the kitty

964
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 2: is a lib deat is not really going to influence

965
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: whether the big cat is a libradat exactly.

966
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 3: And so there's these folks that come up with this

967
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 3: really clever experiment where you take a box and you

968
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 3: put low energy photons inside of it, and under some

969
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 3: almost magic like wave mechanics mathematics, there's a place in

970
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 3: the box where the photon wavelengths add up in a

971
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 3: special way to wiggle at a really high energy. So

972
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 3: waves can add up and they can cancel each other out.

973
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 3: This is constructive and destructive interference, where it turns out

974
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 3: if you put a bunch of low energy photons into

975
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 3: a box, there's one portion of the box where they're

976
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 3: wiggling really really fast where all those photons added up

977
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 3: kind of make a higher energy photon than the sum

978
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 3: of all the energy of the photons you put in.

979
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 3: And they came up with this way to try to

980
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 3: reflect that one part of the photon out of the

981
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 3: box by slipping a mirror in really quick. And so

982
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,800
Speaker 3: it's sort of like putting a few low energy photons

983
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 3: in a box and then getting out a really high

984
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 3: energy photon. So this is the experiment they proposed would

985
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 3: prove violation or conservation of energy and quantum mechanics. But

986
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 3: there's a lot of controversy about what this experiment might

987
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 3: mean and whether you could actually do it.

988
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 2: Oh, I see, because if you measure a really big

989
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: photon coming out of this corner of the box, you

990
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 2: have to wonder where that energy came from.

991
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, how did the universe make this high energy photon

992
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 3: out of just a few very low energy photons? Where

993
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 3: did it come from? Just like the example we were

994
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 3: talking about before, how did the particle get seventy five

995
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 3: GeV when the expected value of the energy was fifty

996
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 3: Where did that energy come from? And you can only

997
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 3: really ask that question where did it come from if

998
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 3: you believe it should come from somewhere, which implies that

999
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 3: it's conserved, that it has to come from somewhere, that

1000
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 3: it's like flows around in this limited amount. But if

1001
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 3: energy is not conserved, it can just like go up

1002
00:47:58,239 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 3: or down, like the number of dead cats in the unit.

1003
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 3: Then that's not really a problem.

1004
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 2: But couldn't you say that the energy of that right

1005
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 2: photon in the corner came from the little photons or

1006
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 2: would it come out with a much bigger energy than

1007
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,760
Speaker 2: the if you add up the little smaller photons.

1008
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, in this case, the energy is much bigger than

1009
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 3: the sum of the energies of all the photons you

1010
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 3: put in, So you can't explain it by just like

1011
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 3: having added up those photons. It's a really cool experiment.

1012
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 3: It's called super oscillation if you want to check out

1013
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 3: more details about it.

1014
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 2: Well, but then you said that this is all just

1015
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 2: a base on one interpretation of quantum mechanics. What did

1016
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 2: the other interpretations say or how can they help us?

1017
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, because a big part of the issue is what

1018
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 3: happens when you make a measurement. Right, if you go

1019
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 3: from a state that has on average fifty jewels of

1020
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 3: energy and you make a measurement, how do you end

1021
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 3: up in one of those states? And where does that

1022
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 3: energy come from? And other interpretations of quantum mechanics tell

1023
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 3: a very different story about what's happening there. For example,

1024
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,720
Speaker 3: the Many Worlds or ever ready in quantum mechanics says

1025
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 3: that there is no collapse of the wave function. That

1026
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 3: if you have a superposition of two possibilities that cas

1027
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 3: alive or the particle has twenty five or seventy five

1028
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 3: jewels of energy that when you make a measurement, the

1029
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,839
Speaker 3: universe just branches. Now there's one branch that has one

1030
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 3: option and another branch that has the other option. And

1031
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 3: so in that sense, if you're like averaging over the branches,

1032
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 3: nothing has really changed. You know, the total energy in

1033
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 3: the universe hasn't changed. One individual branch might see seventy

1034
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 3: five jewels, so they might think they're seeing violation of

1035
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 3: conservation of energy, but averaged over all the branches, including

1036
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 3: the ones that don't see, nothing has really changed. There's

1037
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 3: still just a distribution of different energies.

1038
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 2: I feel like you just skipped over a humong this concept,

1039
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 2: which is just throwing the multiverse. Yes, exactly, in the

1040
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 2: multiverse quantum multiverse. So you're saying, like, one way to

1041
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 2: interpret quantum mechanics is that things don't collapse. You know,

1042
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 2: if something if the cat is alive and dead, it

1043
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,760
Speaker 2: means that there's a universe where the cat is alive

1044
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 2: and there's a universe where it's dead, and so overall

1045
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 2: energy is still conserved. That's kind of the idea.

1046
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:59,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, energy is just unevenly distributed among those quantum multiverses.

1047
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 3: One of them it's more, another one gets less. Overall,

1048
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 3: it all balances out across the multiverse, but in an

1049
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:09,280
Speaker 3: individual universe, an observer does see a violation of energy.

1050
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,919
Speaker 3: So that's a pretty different story than what's being told

1051
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 3: by the Copenhagen group.

1052
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 2: Let me see if I get this, so, like, I

1053
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 2: have the cat in the box, and I open the

1054
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 2: box and I find that the cat is alive, and

1055
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 2: I think, oh my god, this is a violation of

1056
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 2: cat aliveness in the universe because before the cat was

1057
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:26,760
Speaker 2: only fifty percent alive and now it's fully alive.

1058
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:27,320
Speaker 3: Sure.

1059
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you're saying, if you think that the actually

1060
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 2: there's a multiverse, is a quantum multiverse, then there's no

1061
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 2: real violation because if you consider my universe where the

1062
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 2: cat is alive, and your universe where the cat is dead,

1063
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 2: then it makes sense for me to see that the

1064
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 2: cat is alive, and it makes sense for you to

1065
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 2: see that the cat is dead. There's no violation here.

1066
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, because across the quantum multiverse it's still fifty percent

1067
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 3: alive and fifty percent dead.

1068
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 2: But in the single universe version of quantum mechanics, the

1069
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,799
Speaker 2: cat aliveness went up from one half to one if

1070
00:50:58,800 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 2: I see that the cat is.

1071
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,879
Speaker 3: Alive exactly so in the collapse theory where measuring it

1072
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 3: forces the universe to choose one of these branches instead

1073
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,800
Speaker 3: of maintaining all of them, then somehow the number of

1074
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 3: live cats in the universe goes up from half to one,

1075
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 3: violating the well known principle of the number of living

1076
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 3: cats in the universe.

1077
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, or people in swimming pools, which I'm going to

1078
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,919
Speaker 2: wait for that paper from me. Okay, hold your breas,

1079
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 2: yeah under the pool, yes, Okay. So then I feel

1080
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 2: like maybe I wonder, like you're saying, if we require

1081
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 2: energy to be conserved in the universe for real, for sure,

1082
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 2: then maybe I wonder if that's proof that the multiverse exists,

1083
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 2: because that's the only way this is going to work.

1084
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 3: Right, That's a cool perspective I hadn't thought of. Yeah,

1085
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 3: I suppose if you define energy that way as across

1086
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 3: the multiverse and you insist that it's conserved, then Copenhagen

1087
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 3: interpretation of quantum mechanics does violate that. But that's not

1088
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 3: something you can test, right. You can never access these

1089
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 3: other brand inches of the multiverse. You can ever know

1090
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 3: if they exist and if other people are measuring other things.

1091
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 3: Then you we can only ever access our branch.

1092
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 2: We think, maybe, right, maybe you can this. I think

1093
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 2: we've talked about this before and in our books, like

1094
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 2: you could maybe discover something about the mathematics of our

1095
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,760
Speaker 2: universe that maybe points to the necessity of other universes.

1096
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 3: No, we definitely argue in our book that it might

1097
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 3: be that the only consistent explanation of the universe is

1098
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 3: the multiverse. So you can prove the multiverse exists without

1099
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 3: ever experimentally verifying it, though that takes a lot of

1100
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 3: confidence to say that there's no other explanation out there.

1101
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 2: That would take a high amount of confidence, not a

1102
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 2: nuclear amount of confidence.

1103
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 3: So extrapoling in that argument, if you can somehow prove

1104
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 3: that a complete theory of the universe has to satisfy

1105
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 3: conservation of energy at the quantum level, then yeah, that

1106
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 3: might require the existence of the multiverse. But I don't

1107
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 3: know how you would prove that requirement because energy is

1108
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 3: not even necessarily well defined at the quantum level.

1109
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 2: I wonder if that means that some of the other

1110
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,320
Speaker 2: places that we've seen energy conservation being violated, like the

1111
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 2: expansion of the universe. I wonder if that can mean that,

1112
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 2: you know, as our universe expands and gains energy, maybe

1113
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 2: there's another universe out there losing energy and being compressed.

1114
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 3: It's a great question and one of the reasons I

1115
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 3: really like this question zooming down to the microscopic scale

1116
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 3: and trying to understand what is conservation of energy there

1117
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 3: is because we're really interested in what it means at

1118
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 3: our scale, Like where does energy come from? Why is

1119
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 3: it conserved for us? Is it because it's required at

1120
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 3: the quantum level, or is it because it emerges somehow?

1121
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 3: And so yeah, maybe energy non conservation in general relativity

1122
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 3: could eventually be derived from some deep quantum gravity, some

1123
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 3: explanation of the nature of space time at the quantum

1124
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 3: level that has these consequences at our scale or at

1125
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 3: the scale of the whole universe. So that would be

1126
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 3: really fascinating.

1127
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, or maybe vice versa, right, Like, if you prove

1128
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 2: energy conservation at the grand level, it must might have

1129
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 2: some consequences about you know, what we think is happening

1130
00:53:58,400 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 2: at the quantum level.

1131
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 3: It could be though sometimes conservation laws cannot be exact.

1132
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 3: They can just emerge, so they don't have to always

1133
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 3: hold true at the quantum level to hold true at

1134
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 3: the classical level. But there are some things that are

1135
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 3: true at the quantum level, Like we think conservation momentum

1136
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:14,760
Speaker 3: is rock solid at the quantum level, and the reason

1137
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 3: we have it at our level is because everything is

1138
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 3: made out of these quantum bits which follow these rules.

1139
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 3: So we don't know basically whether conservation of energy is

1140
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 3: exact the way conservation momentum is because it comes out

1141
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 3: of the quantum level, or if it's something that emerges

1142
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 3: somehow when you get classical physics.

1143
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:33,880
Speaker 2: I guess maybe your people in a pool experiment is

1144
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 2: going to conclusively prove that.

1145
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 3: Then give me one hundred years. It's going to take

1146
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 3: a lot of data.

1147
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 2: What you Why do you need five years to do this?

1148
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 3: Oh man? Because the IRB, you know, you're doing experiments

1149
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 3: on people. You got to sign the papers. It's the

1150
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 3: whole thing.

1151
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 2: I see. Yeah, And then there's a pool, so the

1152
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,359
Speaker 2: forms get wet. It's all a big mess. What does

1153
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 2: this have more implications for our understanding of quantum game

1154
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 2: tax or understanding of energy conservation in the universe.

1155
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 3: I think it has consequences for our understanding of what

1156
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 3: energy is. As we drill down to see what the

1157
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 3: universe really is like at the microscopic scale, we learn

1158
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,839
Speaker 3: about things that turn out to just be features of

1159
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 3: our existence. They're not generally true at every level of

1160
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 3: the universe, you know, like there's no equivalent to ice

1161
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:24,280
Speaker 3: cream at the quantum level, for example, there's no equivalent

1162
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 3: to cats. Those things only exist at our level. And

1163
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 3: so I love that as we keep looking deeper into

1164
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 3: the universe, we discover things about our experience that turn

1165
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 3: out to just be part of our experience. They're not

1166
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 3: generally true about the universe, like our sun is unusual,

1167
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 3: and maybe our planet is weird, maybe our way of

1168
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 3: life is weird. And the same way, we discover that

1169
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 3: the way we experience the universe and the things we

1170
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 3: think are fundamental about it actually aren't. To me, that's

1171
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:51,919
Speaker 3: really cool and it opens up questions about like other

1172
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 3: conservation laws, are other things that we thought were hard

1173
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:57,919
Speaker 3: and fast and true about the universe actually just sort

1174
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 3: of like emergent approximate things, and at a quantum level

1175
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 3: they're not preserved. That would be kind of scary.

1176
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:05,719
Speaker 2: Well for me, I'm getting the sense that maybe, like

1177
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 2: even if we do discover that energy is conserved or

1178
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 2: not in our universe. That wouldn't maybe really tell us

1179
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 2: what the real truth is because we wouldn't have access

1180
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 2: to maybe the multiverse in other universes, which would maybe

1181
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 2: cancel out what we think is the rule of the universe.

1182
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. We could see what we think is

1183
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 3: energy non conservation, but in a bigger picture it all

1184
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,720
Speaker 3: balances out, and so we might never really know these answers.

1185
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:31,759
Speaker 2: Well, I'll just take comfort in the fact that even

1186
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 2: if I don't exercise today, maybe there's a quantum whohe

1187
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 2: in another universe who is doing double the exercise for

1188
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,800
Speaker 2: the tour that both us and in some way you

1189
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 2: can say that I exercised today.

1190
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true, and that quantum whoorge will live longer

1191
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 3: than you, and on average, you know, some fraction across

1192
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 3: the uterus will be alive or not.

1193
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go. There you go, playing with some

1194
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 2: kittens and counting people in a swimming pool. All right, Well,

1195
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 2: we hope you enjoyed the Thanks for joining us, See

1196
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:02,879
Speaker 2: you next time.

1197
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:11,280
Speaker 3: For more science and curiosity, come find us on social media,

1198
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 3: where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discord, Instant,

1199
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 3: and now TikTok and remember that Daniel and Jorge explain

1200
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 3: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

1201
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 3: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1202
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:29,720
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1203
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