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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that,

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Speaker 2: let's get to the show. Good morning, everybody, Happy Tuesday.

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Speaker 2: We have an amazing show for everybody today.

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Speaker 1: What do we have, Crystal, Indeed, we do lots to

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Speaker 1: get to you this morning. Israeli officials claiming they are

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Speaker 1: shifting to a different phase of the conflict as they

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Speaker 1: are floating yet another supposed plan for what may come

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Speaker 1: in the day after.

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Speaker 4: We will break all of that down for you. We

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Speaker 4: also have a member of.

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Speaker 1: The Kanesset who is signing on to South Africa's claims

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Speaker 1: of genocide against Israel, leading to huge political ramifications for him.

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Speaker 1: There's a whole freak out going on over that, so

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Speaker 1: we'll break that down for you. Also, got some interesting

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Speaker 1: ways that that conflict is flowing into day domestic politics.

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Speaker 1: Protesters disrupting Joe Biden during a speech down in Charleston,

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Speaker 1: so we'll show you those images. We also have the

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Speaker 1: Iowa caucuses next week next week and a new poll

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Speaker 1: is showing Nikki Hayley surging into a single digit deficit

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Speaker 1: with Trump in New Hampshire, so she is definitely surging

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Speaker 1: closing the gap.

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Speaker 4: Is it enough? Is it too late? All of that.

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Speaker 1: Will show you their closing ads as well as they

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Speaker 1: head into iow.

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Speaker 4: A lot of interesting stuff going on there.

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Speaker 1: Also have some updates for you as we're learning more

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Speaker 1: about what may have caused that door to blow off

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Speaker 1: of a jet while they.

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Speaker 4: Were in the air.

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Speaker 1: This was the subject of Soccer's monologue yesterday, so we're

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Speaker 1: getting a little bit of insight into what the hell

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Speaker 1: may be going on there, and it is not good news.

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Speaker 1: We also have some media updates for you. Mehdi Hassan

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Speaker 1: out at MSNBC. He has chosen to leave after his

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Speaker 1: show was canceled, so we will break down the reasons

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Speaker 1: why perhaps he was sidelined there. Also excited to talk

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Speaker 1: to Jeff Steiny as a new podcast breaking down the

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Speaker 1: history of abolitionist John Brown, which is really fascinating, highly

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Speaker 1: recommend Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It's gonna be fun to talk to him about that.

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Speaker 2: Before we get to that, though, if you guys can

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Speaker 2: help us out and sign up for a premium membership.

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Speaker 2: We've got our RFK Junior focus group that is going

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Speaker 2: to be happening on Thursday.

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Speaker 3: Our crew is going there.

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Speaker 2: We're going to be filming in our great moderator James

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Speaker 2: Johnson and our friends over jailp Partners.

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Speaker 3: But these do cost a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: So if you can help us out, sign up for

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Speaker 2: a premium membership, and we actually are going to allow

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Speaker 2: premium members, you guys can submit questions that we will

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Speaker 2: take into consideration to ask for the focus group. You

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Speaker 2: can do it in the AMA section of the website,

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Speaker 2: so if you would like to try and submit one,

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Speaker 2: you can become a premium member or existing members can

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Speaker 2: do that as well. We always want to try and

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Speaker 2: keep this, you know, we want to keep it within

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Speaker 2: the BP universe, just to show that we're a little

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Speaker 2: bit different over here. So anyway, Breakingpoints dot Com, if

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Speaker 2: you can help us out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're formulating those questions and ideas now, so

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Speaker 1: go ahead and send them in. If you have ideas

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Speaker 1: of what you want to know from RFK junior supporters.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's go ahead and get to the very

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Speaker 1: latest out of Israel. Put us up on the screen

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Speaker 1: from the Wall Street Journal. This was quite an extraordinary

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Speaker 1: interview overall that the Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant gave

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Speaker 1: the headline here Israel plans for next phase of Gaza war,

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Speaker 1: Defence minister says, and in this piece they kind of

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Speaker 1: buried the lead. So Galant is floating and this is

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Speaker 1: not official government policy, but this is what he's floating.

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Speaker 4: He says, as he sees it.

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Speaker 1: A multinational task force should be set up in the

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Speaker 1: day after in Gaza, led by the US, with European

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Speaker 1: and Middle Eastern partners. They should oversee the rehabilitation of Gaza. This,

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Speaker 1: of course, comes after last week you had those far

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Speaker 1: right ministers Smotrich and Ben Gavier making very clear that

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Speaker 1: they believe the appropriate day after plan in Gaza is

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Speaker 1: ethnic cleansing. Of course, we've had Net and Yahoo reports

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Speaker 1: that he is interested in the same. We've had multiple

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Speaker 1: We've had a plan come out from a government ministry

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Speaker 1: laying out three different options, and the one that they

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Speaker 1: said they prefer where the most was pushing Palestinians out

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Speaker 1: of Gaza, the idea being basically to make all of

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Speaker 1: Gaza uninhabitable, mission accomplished there and then to pressure the

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Speaker 1: US and others that this is the humanitarian solution, is

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Speaker 1: to forcibly remove Palestinians from the Gaza strip. I think

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Speaker 1: it's worth noting in terms of Yoev Galant with regards

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Speaker 1: to this war, he has been hand in glove with Netanyahu.

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Speaker 1: He actually at one point was fired by Netnyahai if

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Speaker 1: you remember. That has sparked huge protests over the judicial

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Speaker 1: coup that Netanyahu was pushing through that is now in

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Speaker 1: dispute the Supreme Court of the country overturning that and

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Speaker 1: causing yet another crisis because of that. So there's been

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Speaker 1: friction with them on the pass. There's more details of

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Speaker 1: what Yoev Galant is floating here in the Guardian. Let's

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Speaker 1: go and put this up on the screen. They sent.

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Speaker 1: Under Galant's plan, which is not official policy and as

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Speaker 1: yet to be submitted to other ministers, Israel's offensive in

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Speaker 1: Gaza would continue until hostage is taken. On October seventh,

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Speaker 1: were freed and Hamasa's military and governing capabilities dismayed handled then,

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Speaker 1: the outline says a new phase would begin during which

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Speaker 1: Hamas will not control Gaza and will not pose a

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Speaker 1: security threat, with unspecified Palestinian bodies, apparently local civil servants

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Speaker 1: or communal leaders assuming the territories governance. Galant said that

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Speaker 1: Israel would reserve its right to operate inside the territory,

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Speaker 1: but there would be no Israeli civilian presence in the

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Speaker 1: Gaza strip after the goals of war have been achieved.

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Speaker 1: Gaza residents are Palestinian, therefore, Palestinian bodies will be in charge,

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Speaker 1: with the condition that there will be no hostile actions

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Speaker 1: or threats against the State of Israel. Earlier this week,

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Speaker 1: Israeli media reported the military and intelligence officials favored dividing

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Speaker 1: Gaza into regions and subregions, with civil administration and the

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Speaker 1: distribution of humanitarian aid in each area entrusted to local

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Speaker 1: leaders seen as trustworthy. Many people describing this as sort

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Speaker 1: of a Bantu Stan plan, relating it to the ghettos

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Speaker 1: that were established in South Africa.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the biggest problem that we have with this entire

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Speaker 2: thing is as obvious that they don't have a unified

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Speaker 2: plan that they agree on then their most convenient one

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Speaker 2: is to offload the responsibility onto the United States. And

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Speaker 2: they the saddest thing, Crystal is I cannot rule out

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Speaker 2: that our people, our leaders, are not dumb enough to

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Speaker 2: actually want to sign up to something like that. They're like, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: it would just be too disruptive. It's like absolutely not.

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Speaker 2: Israel is responsible for this. They need to pay for

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Speaker 2: all of the reconstruction, and they also are the ones

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Speaker 2: who need to pay for administration. And I think that

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Speaker 2: the reason that they are trying to get out right

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Speaker 2: now is because Crystal, they know we cover this. They

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Speaker 2: had one hundred something soldiers who were wounded in a

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Speaker 2: single day yesterday. The IDF announced this morning that nine

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Speaker 2: of them were killed just yesterday yesterday that were killed

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Speaker 2: inside of Gaza. That was not just included in the

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Speaker 2: Hesbolah attacks. We need to understand here that the occupation

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Speaker 2: and actually, if I went and I read the descriptions

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Speaker 2: of the idea of soldiers who were all killed, they

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Speaker 2: were all in combat engineer's brigades, meaning that they were

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Speaker 2: involved in demolition or some sort of occupation like activity.

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Speaker 2: This is where I believe the vast majority of their

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Speaker 2: future casualties are all going to come from and if

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Speaker 2: you read again the incidents ambushed in communists, ambushed in

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Speaker 2: Gaza City involved in a demolition activity. They want us,

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Speaker 2: the Europeans and the Middle Eastern partners, to somehow be

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Speaker 2: responsible and to catch all of the flak the bullets

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Speaker 2: and eventually elevate us to something called primary occupation status.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely not, and I think that they might be might

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Speaker 2: be realizing the nightmare that they've now signed themselves up for.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the preferred solution for the most right wing

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Speaker 2: ministers is going to be ethnic cleansing.

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Speaker 3: But it becomes.

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Speaker 2: Clear that I think they are starting to see what

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Speaker 2: they have created and that mess, and they're going to

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Speaker 2: try to extricate themselves by pushing the bill onto the

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Speaker 2: United States, to the UN and others, which I think

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Speaker 2: is outrageous. I mean, they are the ones who have

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Speaker 2: to They should bear one hundred percent of the cost

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Speaker 2: for all of this, not one dollar of this should

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Speaker 2: come from the US.

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Speaker 1: So I read it differently, this plan by Yoev Galant,

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Speaker 1: which there's a reason why I floated that there was

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Speaker 1: previously tension and distance between him and net Yahoo. I

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Speaker 1: don't think that this really is representative whatsoever of what

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Speaker 1: the Israeli government really wants to do. Remember, the US

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Speaker 1: position is supposedly that, you know, what we want is

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Speaker 1: the Palestinian authority to be bolstered, to be enabled to

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Speaker 1: take some governing role in Gaza, and then for a

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Speaker 1: two state solution process to be seriously undertaken. There is

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Speaker 1: zero appetite for that in the Israeli government. And even

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Speaker 1: Yoov Goalant, who is sorry, based on his comments around

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Speaker 1: this world, were a total psycho, but he's what counts

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Speaker 1: for like a moderate in this administration, even he doesn't

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Speaker 1: mention the Palestinian Authority or any of the things that

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Speaker 1: the US is.

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Speaker 4: Allegedly pushing for. Here.

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Speaker 1: I think what happened is you have not just Smotrich,

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Speaker 1: not just Ben Gavir, but Netanyahu Hertzog. You can read

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Speaker 1: through the list of Israeli Cabinet members and Lakud party

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Speaker 1: members and military officials and journalists and commentators who are

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Speaker 1: all pushing the ethnic cleansing plan.

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Speaker 4: You can look at the polling.

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Speaker 1: Of Jewish Israelis who overwhelmingly think that is the right solution.

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Speaker 1: And so you had this burgeoning pressure because they said

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Speaker 1: it too many times too clearly and too out loud,

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Speaker 1: where even the US felt the need to put out

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Speaker 1: this little statement of like, oh, we disagree with this,

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Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. So I view this plan less

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Speaker 1: as a real serious idea of what they want to

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Speaker 1: do than a bit of ass covering of like, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: that's not really representative of what we want. Look, here's

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Speaker 1: another idea that we're floating out there. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: they went ahead to make sure that idea was like

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Speaker 1: also completely unpalatable to the US, putting the assignment for

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Speaker 1: reconstruction of Gaza and some sort of oversight of Gaza

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Speaker 1: onto the US and to the UN. So that's how

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Speaker 1: I read this in terms of, you know, the dynamics

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Speaker 1: and the push and pull supposedly between the US and

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Speaker 1: the Israelis. I think it's very clear, based on the

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Speaker 1: actions in the strip, based on the comments from everyone

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Speaker 1: from Netanyahu on down, including Smotrich, including Ben Giver, what

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Speaker 1: they really want is the ethnic cleansing plan. That is

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Speaker 1: what they've been executing effectively, and that they're just floating

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Speaker 1: this option as like a bit of public ass covering.

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Speaker 3: You may certainly be right.

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Speaker 2: I do think that they're I think, actually this seems

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Speaker 2: more likely to me just because of the outrageous I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is just in my opinion, I do not think

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Speaker 2: it would be a possable situation, both to America, to Egypt,

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Speaker 2: to all these other Middle Eastern countries. I think a

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Speaker 2: full scale regional war would be more likely than acceptance

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Speaker 2: of genuine ethnic cleansing, at least in terms of expulsion

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Speaker 2: from the Gaza strip now starvation and all that. That's

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Speaker 2: a different story, and certainly because we're in something like that,

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Speaker 2: I guess the net effect doesn't necessarily matter. But you know,

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Speaker 2: this seems to me as if something that could arrive

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Speaker 2: sadly as some middle ground solution quote unquote, as horrible

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Speaker 2: and awful as it would be, I think for everybody involved.

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Speaker 2: Now let's go and put this next one please up

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Speaker 2: on the screen. Because of this highlights the expanding nature

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Speaker 2: of the conversation, because we're here talking right now about Gaza,

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Speaker 2: but the likelihood right now of the regional war which

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Speaker 2: we touched on yesterday, demonstrates that these people are hell

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Speaker 2: bent on expanding the war largely I believe, to be

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Speaker 2: able to keep their hold on power because of course,

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Speaker 2: the Israeli people. You know, is Nataannaho's got what four

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Speaker 2: to six percent approval rating, But as long as this

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Speaker 2: thing goes on, it's better off for him. And he

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Speaker 2: says that to the Wall Street Journal that Hesbolah knows quote,

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Speaker 2: we can copy and paste Gaza to Beirut. Now there

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Speaker 2: is zero question in my mind. And I'm curious what

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Speaker 2: you think that a copy and paste of Gaza to

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Speaker 2: Beirut would erupt in a full scale regional war. Because

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Speaker 2: of Hezbolah, because of Iran, and certainly because Lebanon is

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Speaker 2: a sovereign nation with partners and allies in the region,

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Speaker 2: They're just already we're at such a massive breaking point

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Speaker 2: in terms of the relations between Jordan and Israel, Jordan

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Speaker 2: and the United States, Egypt and others. If they were to

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Speaker 2: do that and effectively declare war on the nation of

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Speaker 2: Lebanon with Hesbola somehow caught in between, I just don't

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Speaker 2: have any doubt in my mind it would erupt and

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Speaker 2: the US would almost certainly become involved. So, first of all,

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Speaker 2: the idea is a fantasy. But disturbingly, the more that

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Speaker 2: they begin to talk this way, it just feels like

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Speaker 2: two thousand and two all over again. Put the next one,

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Speaker 2: please up on the screen, because the way that they

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Speaker 2: talk here, he says, my basic view is that we

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Speaker 2: are fighting in axis, not a single enemy. Iran is

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Speaker 2: building up military power around Israel in order.

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Speaker 3: To use it.

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Speaker 2: It's based the exact same playbook Crystal of they've you know,

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Speaker 2: shoddily you know, tempted their so called mission post October

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Speaker 2: seventh in Gaza. They're realizing already that this is not

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Speaker 2: going the way that they wanted it to be, and

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Speaker 2: they're trying to sell it to the public. So now,

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Speaker 2: just like President George W. Bush did in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and two, the Axis of evil becomes the thing. And

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Speaker 2: now we're starting to beat the drum and towards Hezbollah.

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Speaker 2: And then we've all seen this movie before, but America

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Speaker 2: doesn't have, i think, the courage or really the resolve

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Speaker 2: to stand up.

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Speaker 3: And just be like, this is this is not going

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Speaker 3: to happen.

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Speaker 2: You know, we actually you know, put your finger or

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Speaker 2: whatever on the scale, and we're just seemed to be

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Speaker 2: incredibly impotent in our handling of this entire situation, which

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Speaker 2: is humiliating, honestly, especially if we do get involved in

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Speaker 2: this war, it will be one hundred percent on Joe Biden.

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Speaker 1: And it is one hundred percent on Joe Biden. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they have completely bypassed Congress. These you know, national security

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Speaker 1: democrats who were like former CIA agents even there for you,

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Speaker 1: they're the one, yeah, Lissa Slotkin and these people and

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Speaker 1: former you know, people who served in the military as well.

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Speaker 1: They're looking at this situation. They're saying, this is a

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Speaker 1: potential disaster for us. You have, as we covered yesterday,

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Speaker 1: defense officials furiously leaking to the Washington Post and the

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Speaker 1: Huffington Post them seemingly anyone who will listen to them

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Speaker 1: of like, you know, they don't really care about the

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Speaker 1: human toll being u you know, the horrors that are

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Speaker 1: being inflicted on the people in Gaza. But they're looking

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Speaker 1: at this and they said, every single war game that

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Speaker 1: we scenario that we play out with an escalated war

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Speaker 1: against Hesbola is a total disaster. It ends in complete nightmare.

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Speaker 1: So it's not like we're the ones that are just

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Speaker 1: inventing this out of whole cloth. Our own military and

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Speaker 1: defense establishment is playing this out and saying this does

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Speaker 1: not end in a good place. And yet you see

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Speaker 1: all these articles about this hand ring, and nowhere in

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Speaker 1: there do they explain that there is one very clear

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Speaker 1: way to ratchet down the hostilities, and that's to have

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Speaker 1: a negotiated settlement and a ceasefire for the fighting and

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Speaker 1: the bombing of Gaza to stop.

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Speaker 4: That gets the sound of this whole entire mess.

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Speaker 1: So in any case, there's also this, uh, these comments

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Speaker 1: from Yoov Galan and others in the Israeli political class

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Speaker 1: and the defense establishment in Israel that they're quote shifting

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Speaker 1: to a new phase of the war. It's going to

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Speaker 1: be less you know, just like all on assault and

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Speaker 1: more targeted.

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Speaker 4: We'll see.

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Speaker 1: We have not seen that yet. They've been they've been

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Speaker 1: sort of floating this since the beginning of the year,

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Speaker 1: and yet the we've seen some of the deadliest strikes

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Speaker 1: and deadliest days in this entire assault, even in the

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Speaker 1: new year. And they mentioned in particular, you know that

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Speaker 1: there's going to be issues with Rafa, where I think

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Speaker 1: over a million Palestinians have gathered at this point, that's

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Speaker 1: at the border with Egypt there and now you know,

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Speaker 1: originally it was all Hamas's command and controls in the north,

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Speaker 1: and we've got Flattena and destroyed. Well they did that,

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Speaker 1: that's destroyed, its uninhabitable. There's basically nothing left there. Then

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Speaker 1: it was all we got to move to Conunis. That's

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Speaker 1: where Hamas really is. Okay, well they've destroyed neighborhoods and Conunis,

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Speaker 1: massive death tolls there. Now they're saying, oh, well, really

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Speaker 1: they're in Rafa, so we've got to move there, and

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Speaker 1: you know, the human toll is going to be absolutely devastating,

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Speaker 1: and at the same time, the humiliation for the US

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Speaker 1: just continues. Put this next piece up on the screen

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Speaker 1: Israel to tell Anthony Blincoln, who is in the region

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Speaker 1: right now, that Palestinians cannot return to the north of

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Speaker 1: Gaza without a hostage deal. Now hanging over this elephant

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Speaker 1: in the room that doesn't even get mentioned in this piece,

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Speaker 1: I believe, is that there is basically nothing to return

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Speaker 1: to in the north of Gaza in terms of any

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Speaker 1: sort of civilian infrastructure that can sustain life.

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Speaker 4: But let me read you a little bit of this.

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Speaker 4: They say.

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Speaker 1: The big picture making progress toward the return of Palestinians

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Speaker 1: their homes and ensuring they are not forcibly displaced from

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Speaker 1: Gaza is one of the goals of Lincoln's talks in Israel.

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Speaker 1: This week, the Biden administration has expressed concerns over recent

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Speaker 1: statements from some radical right wing Israeli ministers who have

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Speaker 1: called for Palestinians to be driven on a strip. It's

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Speaker 1: not only then, by the way, what they're saying. Palestinian

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Speaker 1: civilians must be able to return home as soon as

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Speaker 1: conditions allow, Blinken said on Sunday in a press conference

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Speaker 1: with the Katari Prime Minister in Doha. They cannot and

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Speaker 1: they must not be pressed to leave Gaza.

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Speaker 4: He's stressed.

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Speaker 1: But behind the scenes, Israeli sources told Axios, while Israel

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Speaker 1: doesn't in principle a pose allowing Palestinians to return to

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Speaker 1: northern Gaza, officials will tell Blinken such a move needs

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Speaker 1: to be part of a new hostage deal.

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Speaker 4: Let me be clear.

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Speaker 1: Hamas should release the hostages, no doubt about it. It

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Speaker 1: is a war crime to hold, especially civilians, as hostages.

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Speaker 1: It is unacceptable. They should release the hostages. What is

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Speaker 1: Israel doing here. They're basically holding the people of Gaza

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Speaker 1: hostage based on these hostilities and demanding that there wants

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Speaker 1: and needs be fulfilled In order for people just to

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Speaker 1: return to the rubble of their homes that have been

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Speaker 1: overwhelmingly destroyed in northern Gaza. And as I said before, Saga,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's so clear that the US's

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Speaker 1: words and rhetoric mean yeah, zero nothing because they see

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Speaker 1: that they can do what they want, and you know,

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Speaker 1: they keep pushing like, Okay, what if we attack a hospital?

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Speaker 4: What if we do that? Will they go along with us?

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Speaker 5: Yes?

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Speaker 4: We will. What if we flatten all of northern Gaza?

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Speaker 3: What if we.

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Speaker 1: Impose a complete siege? What if half of Gaza residents

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Speaker 1: are starving? Will they do anything to push back the answers?

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Speaker 1: Buten no, So why would they listen to our little

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Speaker 1: pearl clutching handbringing comments about what we want to see

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Speaker 1: when there's zero willingness to back it up with anything

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Speaker 1: other than those words.

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Speaker 3: No, I can't disagree with that at all. I think

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Speaker 3: it is outrageous decision and a statement and to be

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Speaker 3: communicated again to the United States. Two wrongs don't make

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Speaker 3: it right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we saw the videos just yesterday of those

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Speaker 2: Israeli girls who are still being held hostage.

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Speaker 3: They got like blood on their face or whatever. It's horrifying.

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Speaker 2: But then you know, you can't erase and say that

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Speaker 2: their captivity is going to be subject to a million

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Speaker 2: or so people who are living in a tent, you know,

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Speaker 2: on the brink of starvation by the border. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is you know, insanity. And then, as you said

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Speaker 2: in tandem, where are they supposed to go? I mean,

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Speaker 2: the more and more I look at this, I'm just

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Speaker 2: genuinely so humiliated on behalf of the United States of America.

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Speaker 2: Like if you go back and you read and you

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Speaker 2: think about the way that even past presidents, who you know,

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Speaker 2: not necessarily the strongest people. There's a famous quote of

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Speaker 2: Bill Clinton behind the scenes saying, who the hell does

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Speaker 2: this guy think he is? When talking about the Israeli

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Speaker 2: Prime minister, And he said, you know, who needs to

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Speaker 2: remind who of who the superpower is here?

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Speaker 3: And as you.

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Speaker 2: Know, increasingly it's clear they don't care or listen to

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Speaker 2: what we think. And by the way, that's fine. They're

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Speaker 2: a sovereign country. They can do what they want. But

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Speaker 2: you know, when they're also got their hand out like

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Speaker 2: this asking for emergency replenishment of their artillery shells and

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Speaker 2: their weapons and all this other stuff, then you know,

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Speaker 2: we got to have a little bit of respect here

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Speaker 2: and just say that this is clearly look, take Israel.

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Speaker 3: Out of it. And this has been my entire you know, position.

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Speaker 2: From day one, Israel Palace, and I'll put it all

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Speaker 2: out of because I don't like to think about quote

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Speaker 2: unquote humanity and stuff, because he get really bogged down

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Speaker 2: on the details.

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Speaker 3: Strategically, this has been a disaster. This has heightened tensions

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Speaker 3: for us in the Middle East.

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Speaker 2: We started to redirect tens of billions of dollars of

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Speaker 2: military resources. We stand on the brink of a regional

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Speaker 2: war in a region that we already lost to wars

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Speaker 2: that we've just come twenty five years or so off of.

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Speaker 2: What possible reason would we want to get involved in this?

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Speaker 2: And the humanitarian situation is both upstream and downstream of this,

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Speaker 2: which is why we should be absolutely focused on making

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Speaker 2: sure this doesn't happen. And you know, Israel cannot be

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Speaker 2: talking about their hostages and the emotional situation of this

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Speaker 2: and then try to hold hostage the million or so

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Speaker 2: people who are been kicked out of their homes just

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Speaker 2: doesn't It doesn't bear any scrutiny, and if anything, it's

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Speaker 2: just going to multiply the criticism against them, because you know,

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Speaker 2: let's be honest, the sheer numbers of the Palestinians is

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Speaker 2: what ten thousand to one of the Israeli hostages that

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Speaker 2: are being held here and there. This sympathy that they

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Speaker 2: had on October seventh has evaporated, you know, in the

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Speaker 2: entire eyes of the world.

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Speaker 3: I saw it all over Europe.

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Speaker 2: Just you know, just so people know when I was

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Speaker 2: in Europe, the amount of Palestine in flag and activism

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Speaker 2: stuff that was scrolled in public spaces. I was at

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Speaker 2: the International Red Cross Museum in Geneva, Switzerland.

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Speaker 3: It had a big thing.

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Speaker 2: It's like, you know, war crimes and are wrong and everything,

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Speaker 2: even war has rules.

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Speaker 3: I sent you that photo.

438
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 2: This is all over the world, you know, it's only

439
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,359
Speaker 2: right here in America though, you know, our discourse is

440
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 2: so screwed up.

441
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 3: I don't know what it is.

442
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,240
Speaker 1: I run an editorial or op ed, I guess in Haratz,

443
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,159
Speaker 1: which of course is an Israeli media outlet, that was saying, listen,

444
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,679
Speaker 1: whether you agree with the genocide charges or not. We

445
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,920
Speaker 1: went through people accusing us of being occupiers to accusing

446
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 1: us of ethnic cleansing and genocide. That's where we are,

447
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,199
Speaker 1: and with plenty of merit. So yeah, I mean in

448
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:46,120
Speaker 1: terms of Israeli security, in terms of any sort of humanitarianism,

449
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 1: in terms of any sort of international law, in terms

450
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,360
Speaker 1: of any desires for peace, and not blowing this up

451
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,720
Speaker 1: into a larger conflagration. It's all a complete and utter disaster.

452
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 1: At the same time, there is some real friction in

453
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,920
Speaker 1: Israeli society, especially over what happened on October seventh, how

454
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,720
Speaker 1: October seventh happened in the first place, why it was

455
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 1: not disrupted, especially now that we know there were plenty

456
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 1: of indications in advance that this was going to happen.

457
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 1: Then the response itself has come under incredible scrutiny, and

458
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 1: this is getting this is really blowing up at this point,

459
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,919
Speaker 1: So put this up on the screen. There's now demands

460
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,639
Speaker 1: for an investigation into what exactly happened at Kibbutz be

461
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,120
Speaker 1: a re in what they're describing as the tank fire incident. Now,

462
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:42,919
Speaker 1: I wanted to make sure to cover this because we

463
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 1: haven't covered it yet. There have been England's for a while,

464
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 1: but we wanted to wait until there was more concrete

465
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 1: proof that some of the deaths that occurred at this

466
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:58,679
Speaker 1: kibbutz were caused by Israeli military fire. Now, let me

467
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 1: be clear, swhelming number of deaths on October seventh, as

468
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 1: far as the evidence shows, was committed by Humas, this

469
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,199
Speaker 1: is not an attempt to undercut the horrors of that

470
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 1: day or the horrors and atrocities that were committed by Hamas. However,

471
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 1: let me read from this piece and Haretz. They say

472
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 1: there is no demand more justified than that of relatives

473
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,680
Speaker 1: of people killed in the hostage incident at kibbutz, be

474
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 1: a re to investigate the army's actions and to receive

475
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: answers about the circumstances of their loved one's death. Moreover,

476
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:35,159
Speaker 1: the families should not have to make this demand alone.

477
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: The IDF must give them and the public an explanation

478
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,200
Speaker 1: for the army's conduct on October seventh outside the home

479
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 1: of pesse Cohen. Above all, it must disclose whether the

480
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 1: so called Hannibal directive, and I'll explain what that is

481
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: in a moment which states that hostage taking should be

482
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 1: prevented even at the price of harm to our own forces,

483
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: was used against the Israelis held hostage in that house.

484
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,679
Speaker 1: So they're saying, what happened here and the act direct

485
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 1: cause of death of so many people at Pessi Cohen's

486
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: house in this kibbutz. This needs to be investigated. So

487
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 1: what is the Hannibal Directive? As a little bit of

488
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 1: context and backstory here, put this up on the screen

489
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,880
Speaker 1: from Al Jazeera. So the directive, known as the Hannibal

490
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 1: Procedure or Hannibal Protocol, is an Israeli military policy that

491
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 1: stipulates the use of maximum force in the event of

492
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,919
Speaker 1: a soldier being potentially kidnapped. This is according to a

493
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 1: former soldier and co founder of an activist group called

494
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 1: Breaking the Silence quote. You will open fire without constraints

495
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 1: in order to prevent the abduction, he said, adding that

496
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 1: the use of force is carried down even at the

497
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 1: risk of killing a captive soldier. In addition of firing

498
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 1: at the abductor, soldiers can fire at junctions, roads, highways

499
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: and other pathways opponents may take a kidnapped soldier through.

500
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: The Israeli military has denied the interpretation of the directive,

501
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 1: but there have been other indications and reports in the

502
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: past that this has been utilized, and so the allegation

503
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: here is that the people who were on the scene,

504
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 1: the IDF officers who were on the scene, rather than

505
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: risking people being taken hostage, which we know is very

506
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: emotional issue, they decided to fire on this house, killing

507
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: almost everybody who was inside. This is now based on

508
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 1: a New York Times report. Put this up on the

509
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: screen of what unfolded at that kibbutz. The headline here

510
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: is the day Hamas came and this is the pivotal moment.

511
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: So they're interviewing this man, General Hiram, who was sort

512
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 1: of leading the action or directing the action from the

513
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: Israeli side at this kibbutz. And in the story they write,

514
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 1: as the dusk approach, the SWAT commander and General Hiram

515
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,679
Speaker 1: began to argue. The SWAT commander thought more kidnappers might surrender.

516
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: The General wanted the situation resolved by nightfall. Minutes later,

517
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: the militants launched a rocket propelled grenade accornitia. To the

518
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 1: general and other witnesses who spoke to the Times quote,

519
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: the negotiations are over. General Hiram are called telling the

520
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 1: tank commander break in, even at the cost of civilian casualties.

521
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: The tank fired two light shells at the house. Strapnel

522
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: from the second shell hit mister Dagan, that's one of

523
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 1: the hostages in the next severian artering, killing him.

524
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 4: According to his wife.

525
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: Who was one of the only people who survived here

526
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 1: during the melee, the kidnappers were also killed. Only two

527
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: of the fourteen hostages survived, so one of them, this

528
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: Misporat who they indicate there she had actually one of

529
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: the kidnappers, surrendered, took off his shirt to show he

530
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: wasn't wearing suicide vest, took her with him as a

531
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: human shield really, and brought her out. That's how she

532
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: was able to survive. And part of what's critical about

533
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: that context is then the Israeli military officers who are

534
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: there on the scene, they interview her and she tells

535
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 1: them there are fourteen hostages in this house, so it's

536
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: not like they didn't know that there were civilians there

537
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: in the house. When General Hiram tells The New York Times,

538
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: he gives the order to fire, for the tank to

539
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: fire on this house, and everyone's safe for one person

540
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: who remained inside is ultimately killed. So that is causing

541
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: a huge fracture within Israeli society about what the hell

542
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: happened on October seventh, and how many of the people

543
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: who were killed were actually at the hands of the

544
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: IDF executing the quote unquote Hannibal directive.

545
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the big question.

546
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 2: I mean, there's been a lot of discussion about this

547
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 2: now for months on end, and a lot of speculation

548
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 2: about helicopter fire and the level of casualties and all

549
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 2: of that. But it's like you said, Chris wo we

550
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: want to really wanted to wait for like ironclad evidence. Yeah,

551
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 2: you got a general here who says he ordered them

552
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 2: to go in regardless, pretty iron clad.

553
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 3: That's pretty good in terms of evidence.

554
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 2: And then you've got here the Haretz investigation citing the

555
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: people inside the community who say and ask whether the

556
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 2: directive was in play or not.

557
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 3: And that's obviously one of.

558
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,959
Speaker 2: Those where you should have a real question about that

559
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 2: in a democracy or in a society, imagine if that

560
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 2: was US policy. And by the way, it's a legitimate one.

561
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 2: It's an Honestly, I could see both sides. There was

562
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 2: that whole debate when people thought Dick Cheney might have

563
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 2: shot down United ninety three, and it's like, well, you know,

564
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 2: are you gonna allowed to crash into the capital.

565
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 3: What do you do? How can you say their innocent lives.

566
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 2: It's a genuine moral quandary for a leader, and that's

567
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 2: why you should have practices and all these other things

568
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: in place for decision making.

569
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 3: Clearly they had that in the past.

570
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 2: Hostages have been a very emotional problem for Israel many

571
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 2: many times, and it wouldn't be outside the realm of

572
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 2: possibility that that's something that they did. And it does appear,

573
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 2: at least in a small instance that they did it,

574
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: almost certainly here in this case. But you get to

575
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 2: debate that, you know, in a democratic society, and I

576
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: think that's the big question unfortunately, and I'm really glad

577
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 2: the way that.

578
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 3: You phrase it at the beginning.

579
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 2: No one's trying to say that the vast majority of

580
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 2: the people who were killed were not done so by Hamas.

581
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: But you know, it's also a legitimate question, as it

582
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 2: would be on nine to eleven. It doesn't obscure the

583
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 2: nine to eleven hijackers. If a plane was shot out

584
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: of the sky, clearly you know it was a direct

585
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: result of that. But it's still a legitimate question about

586
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 2: things that you know that were done in our name

587
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: or in this case, in the Israeli name, authority and policy,

588
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: and what it means now I think, for how does

589
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 2: it translate to the existing hostages. We already know that

590
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 2: what is it? Three of the hostages were shot and

591
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 2: killed by IDF soldiers even when they were waving white

592
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: flags around. We know that some have been reported dead.

593
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 2: Now Hamas claims that it's because of an air strike.

594
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 2: We do know that the hostages who were freed and

595
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: who eventually met with Netsen Yahu said, you have no

596
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 2: idea what you're doing. We heard the air strikes above

597
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: us all the time. These are genuine questions, I mean.

598
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 2: So then the question is is that directives still in

599
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: place today? There's a current report that ya is it

600
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: yahwa or yaha whatever sinwar, that leader of Hamas is

601
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 2: currently surrounding himself with all of the existing Israeli hostages.

602
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 3: Not outside the realm of possibility.

603
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 2: Isis leaders did it all the time throughout Syria America

604
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 2: decided we will never hit somebody if they're going to

605
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: be surrounded by civilian casualties, and by and large we

606
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 2: were pretty good about it. In some cases waited almost

607
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: two years just to hit someone for the one time

608
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: that they slipped up. Well, what if the Israelis are

609
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 2: getting impatient? Are they going to make that air striker not?

610
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: And they just blame Hamas. That's a genuine question, I mean,

611
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: you know, and it's one of those where it could

612
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: be genuinely downstream of this right here, and considering that

613
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 2: all of global politics is surrounding like this with the sun,

614
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 2: I don't think it's outside their own possibility.

615
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: And this is the terror that hostage families are expressing exactly.

616
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: And let me also say the other reason why it

617
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: matters to parse these details of what happened on October seventh,

618
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: even though it's frankly it's uncomfortable because you don't want

619
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: to sound like you're minimizing it.

620
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 4: And I really am not right. It really was horrific.

621
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 4: There were genuine.

622
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: Atrocities, but we have seen the way that israelly politicians

623
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: and military officials have used fake stories to justify the

624
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: level of horror that has been inflicted on Gaza. Forty

625
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: beheaded babies not true, true, not true? Right, And that's

626
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: not me, that's the Haaretz did an investigation many of

627
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: the most gruesome and grizzly stories, the baby in the oven, right,

628
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: a pregnant woman having a baby cut down. For these

629
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: things were not true. Now, there were plenty of other

630
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: horrors that were true, but these fake stories were weaponized

631
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,959
Speaker 1: to justify the treatment of all Palestinians like they were animals,

632
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: starving them, bombing them. Now, twelve thousand kids dead, you know,

633
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: ninety percent civilian casualties. These fake stories were weaponized, and

634
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: so that's why it matters to get these details really correct.

635
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: What was the number of civilian casualties that were actually

636
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: inflicted by humus?

637
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 4: What was that number?

638
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: It matters just in the interest of accuracy and understanding,

639
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: truly understanding the events of that day.

640
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 4: So that's why I thought it was worthwhile.

641
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: To spend some time on this story and the uproar

642
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: that it's caused in Israeli society, because we were they

643
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: were caught many times line about what actually unfolded in

644
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: that day in a way that has allowed them to,

645
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: you know, make more a stronger case. Not that any

646
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: atrocity on that day would justify what they've done in Gaza,

647
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: but that's the way that these stories and the events

648
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: of these that day have been covered up and weaponized

649
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: to incredibly horrific effect.

650
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: Played out in my own life. Not even three weeks ago,

651
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: I was having dinner with some of my friends. All

652
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: of them are very very pro Israel. I don't bring

653
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: it up. I in general, I don't bring up anything.

654
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: But it's one of those where you know, you're sitting

655
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 2: and people are talking and all of that, and they're like, saga,

656
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: you know, we've been listening to some of what you

657
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: big guys have been saying, and it's.

658
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 3: Like, how can you have so much concern for Palestinians?

659
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 2: And I was like, well, you know, first of all,

660
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 2: you know, I just look at it genuinely, impartially like

661
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: I have equal compassion for both.

662
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 3: And they're like, yeah, but what about the beheaded babies?

663
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 2: And I was like, look, I don't want to get

664
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: into a discussion here at this Mexican suburban restaurant, but

665
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 2: the Israeli me and themselves are the ones who died.

666
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: They had no idea, they had no clue. You know,

667
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 2: these are there's your casual news consumers. And I'm not

668
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 2: putting them down. It's they're living their lives. You know,

669
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: They're they're going about doing something They're like, well, what

670
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 2: about the baby in the oven? And I was They're like,

671
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 2: how can you you know, how can you you know,

672
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 2: move past something like that. And I was like, look again,

673
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: I don't want to ruin your ampanadus, but that's not true.

674
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 2: And I was like, I can pull it up here,

675
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 2: you know, on my phone. And I was like, and

676
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 2: then when we take the emotion out of it a

677
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: little bit, you know, we start to have even a

678
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 2: little bit more of a conversation. And somebody's like, so

679
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: what is the plan exactly? He's like, so where are

680
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 2: all these Palestinians? He's like where did they go? And

681
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, that's a good question, isn't it.

682
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 2: And I was like, you should look into it. And

683
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: it's one of those where that's how you have the conversation.

684
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: But it just it showed me in real time. I'm like, wow,

685
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 2: this stuff is goes deep, you know, in terms of

686
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: people who are casual news consumers, people who are picking

687
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 2: these things up, and then how they can and I

688
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 2: you know, to a certain extent, you can understand where like, well,

689
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,719
Speaker 2: anybody responsible for something like that has got to invite

690
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: a similar type of response. But then When you take

691
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: that out of it, you start, like you said, I

692
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: don't think they genuinely had thought in that moment, where

693
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: did all these palacinam people have to go? And that's

694
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 2: what happens whenever you you'll casually consume some of these things.

695
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 2: And again, I don't I'm not putting these people down.

696
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 2: These are good friends of mine. The point is just

697
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 2: that a lot of people lived like this, you know,

698
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 2: genuinely about in their daily lives, and what we try

699
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 2: to do here on the show is.

700
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 3: Just present to you a very very grace.

701
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 2: You know, it's black and white is easy, the gray

702
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: zone and all this other stuff.

703
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 3: That's where most of real life takes place.

704
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: And when you can talk in that as I did

705
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: with my friends, you can do it in a non

706
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 2: confrontational way and you can actually arrive at a very

707
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: different place. And I think that's what we're trying to

708
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 2: do here right now, and that's part of the reason

709
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: why we're doing the story.

710
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: So go ahead and touch the third rail here. The

711
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: other thing that has been in dispute is whether there

712
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: was widespread systematic rape on October seventh. Sure, and maybe

713
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: there was. I'm not saying there wasn't. I'm certainly not

714
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: saying there was no sexual violence on that day. I

715
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: actually think it would be relatively preposterous to imagine there

716
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: was no sexual violence on that day. However, the claim

717
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: of mass systematized sexual assault has not been backed up

718
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: by evidence, and at this point, based on all of

719
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: the lies they've been caught in, at this point, I

720
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: think it is entirely appropriate to say there needs to

721
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: be some sufficient level of evidence to justify these claims.

722
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: Ryan and Emily actually reported on there was a New

723
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 1: York Times article that sought to dig in to this

724
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 1: this you know question of sexual violence on October seven,

725
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: and one of the primary you know witnesses families that

726
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: they focused on after this report came out, said, we

727
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: did not think that our daughter was raped. We did

728
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: not know that this was the intention of your article.

729
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: And just imagine if that was your daughter who was

730
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: killed on that day, and you have a reporter who

731
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: comes to you basically under false pretenses to sort of

732
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: use you to try to make a point. Now again,

733
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 1: I am not saying that nothing happened. I don't, I don't,

734
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. But the evidence that has so fun

735
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: been proffered is insufficient to justify the claim of mass

736
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: systematized rape on that day. And again you might say, well,

737
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,879
Speaker 1: why why does this matter? Like it was horrible, isn't

738
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: that enough for you? Like why are you nitpicking here?

739
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: And I would just go back to the fact that

740
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 1: the horrible stories that were many and often in many

741
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: cases fabricated in order to elicit emotional response, were used

742
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: to justify horrors being inflicted on Palestinians. And so you

743
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: know that, and just accuracy does matter, Like actually knowing

744
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: for the historical record what really unfolded as best as

745
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: we possibly can on that day does matter.

746
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 3: Truth matters a lot.

747
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: Like you said, it would be actually absurd to have

748
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 2: the idea that a bunch of guys, you know, thousands

749
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: of guys who flooded into a country, you know, and

750
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 2: with weapons and crazed bloodluss did not commit sexual violence.

751
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 3: It also would be absurd to just.

752
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 2: Take any you know, account which has frequently been caught,

753
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 2: you know, either being fabricated or exaggerated, and just believe

754
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 2: it in hold truth fact matter of course for the

755
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 2: historical record, and we've also seen throughout history how exaggerations

756
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: and fakeries are often used to justify the worst of

757
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: a response, such that in this moment of intense information

758
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 2: overflow and all that, I actually think it matters the

759
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 2: most today than it ever did in the past, because

760
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 2: there is so much out there to quote unquote support

761
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: whatever you want. I think you can fully convince yourself

762
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 2: that the beheaded baby story and the oven story or

763
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 2: one hundred percent true if you just googled it online,

764
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 2: if you read the three stories that were to back

765
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 2: it up. It takes a lot of time and effort,

766
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: and that's part of the why the news is exhausting

767
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: for so many people, and also because they don't want

768
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 2: to talk about it over dinner. I get it, I

769
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 2: one hundred percent do. But you know, if you're going

770
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: to engage in it, and if you're going to think

771
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 2: about it more importantly as an informed citizen, I would

772
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 2: urge you to try and do a lot of what

773
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 2: we're trying to do.

774
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, last thing I'll mention on this is, as you

775
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: mentioned the you know, the teenage girls that are still

776
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: being held by Hamas, and they were highlighted, you know,

777
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,479
Speaker 1: extensively in the media yesterday, and I understand why left

778
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: down of the count is that at least some of

779
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: them are in the IDF, so they're not civilians, which

780
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: changes the nature of the story and the way you

781
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: feel about it. So in any case, it's important to

782
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: have all of these details out there and to as

783
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 1: best we can try to accurately sort through what the

784
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: evidence suggests actually happen on that day, and that's something

785
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 1: that the Israeli society right now is grappling with themselves.

786
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: At the same time, there is another uproar in Israel

787
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: over a Kannesset member who is signing on to the

788
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: South Africa claim at the ICJ that Israel is in

789
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: the process of committing a genocide. Put this up on

790
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: the screen, so the headline here is Israeli MK causes

791
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: uproar and kannesse after signing petition accusing Israel genocide in Gaza.

792
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: After a fair Kasif MK in the Arab Jewish hadaj

793
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: Tal party signed the South Africa petition.

794
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 4: Fellow Kannisseant members called for his removal.

795
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: Kasif explained his reasonings, saying, my constitutional duty is to

796
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: Israeli society, not to the government who calls for ethnic

797
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: cleansing and even actual genocide. His signature is added to

798
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: those of over two hundred citizens of Israel who have

799
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: also signed on.

800
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 4: To that petition.

801
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: I'm reading from this report right now, expected to be

802
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,240
Speaker 1: presented to the court towards the beginning of the hearings,

803
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: which start on Thursday. The petition reads, in part, the

804
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 1: information that emerges from the lawsuit is both horrific and credible.

805
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: Israel is indeed taking systematic and thorough steps to wipe

806
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 1: out the population of Gaza, to starve, abuse and displace it.

807
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: It has implemented a policy of erasing options for livelihood,

808
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: which is leading to genocide. So I have an update here,

809
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: which is that there's a process by which if you

810
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:43,280
Speaker 1: can collect seventy signatures from cabinet members from across the Kanesset,

811
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: then you can begin a process that could lead to

812
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: his removal. And they have now obtained those seventy signatures,

813
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: so the process is moving forward to attempt to remove

814
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: him from the Kannesset. He explained his reasoning in a

815
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 1: post on Twitter. Put this up on the screen. This

816
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: is translation is per Google Translate, so forgive any inaccuracies here,

817
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: but according to Google Translate, what he said is my

818
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 1: constitutional duty is to Israeli society and all of its residents,

819
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: not to a government whose members and its coalition are

820
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 1: calling for ethnic cleansing and even actual genocide. They are

821
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: the ones who hurt the country and the people. They

822
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: are the ones who led South Africa to turn to

823
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: the heg that me and my friends. And when the

824
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 1: government acts against society, the state, and its citizens, especially

825
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: when it sacrifices them and commits crimes in their name

826
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: on the altar of maintaining its existence, it is my

827
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: right and even my duty to warn about this and

828
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: do everything I can within the law to stop it.

829
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: I will not give up the fight for our existence

830
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: as a moral society. This is the true patriotism. No

831
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: revenge wars and calls for extermination, no unnecessary bloodshed, and

832
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: no sacrifice of kidnapped citizens and.

833
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 4: Soldiers in false wars.

834
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: This is not the first time that this man has,

835
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 1: by the way, been temporarily suspended and removed from the

836
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: Kannesset over his activism. And I wanted to play for

837
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 1: you a piece of an interview that he gave a

838
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: way while back. This was I think roughly two years ago,

839
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: just to give you a sense of his sort of

840
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: like passion and his committed advocacy.

841
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 4: Take a listen much, I'm.

842
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 6: A member of the class.

843
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 7: But the police, he's not interested in that. They don't

844
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 7: care about my immunity, they don't care about my rights.

845
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 7: They just care about protecting the criminals settlers. Indee, then

846
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 7: you see the kids shooting now, they kids shooting here,

847
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 7: although they demonstrators out peaceful that they don't know anything,

848
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 7: We didn't do anything.

849
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 8: This is the police.

850
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 7: This is the police of this fascist government texts the

851
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 7: criminal settlers against the pitting in indigenous.

852
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: So we see the level of pushback that occurs when

853
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: you descent here in the US on Israel Palestine, when

854
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,919
Speaker 1: you stand up for Palestinian rights and dignity. And here

855
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: he is in Israel where people are getting arrested for

856
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: a social media posts, and you know, society is and

857
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: fever pitch at the moment. And I think it's incredibly

858
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: courageous to do this, to sign on to this petition,

859
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: to speak out really at all at this moment.

860
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really interested to actually see how it goes

861
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 2: in terms of Israeli society. And actually, you know, I

862
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 2: watched your whole video on the breakdown. How it's going

863
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 2: to continue in the ic J process because that actually

864
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 2: I didn't realize that some of the ramifications of what

865
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: it means because they're a signatory to it. And also

866
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,760
Speaker 2: for what the geopolitical situation in the future. We've already

867
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 2: seen it right now with Putin in terms of his

868
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 2: inability to travel in some cases, so you know, something

869
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 2: like that apply to Israel will be extraordinary in terms

870
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 2: of their overall situation.

871
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's going to be very interesting to see

872
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 3: how it plays out.

873
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I watched an analysis and we maybe play this

874
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: on Thursday because that's when the public hearings start. But

875
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: Norman Finkelstein was talking about how he thought this may

876
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: break down, and you know, unfortunately, like you would hope

877
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: that these things were unbiased and it's just going to

878
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: look at the merits, et cetera. It's very politic, which

879
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: is why Israel's pushback is less on the merits and more,

880
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 1: according to what's been reported, pressuring diplomats to get various

881
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: countries to put out statements and you know, play like

882
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 1: a political game to try to pressure the judges that

883
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: will be hearing this case at the ICJ. There are

884
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,439
Speaker 1: fifteen judges and normals going through you know, each one

885
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: of them. He thought it was unlikely that South Africa

886
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: would prevail because even countries like China and Russia you

887
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: might think.

888
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 4: Would side with them.

889
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: But there's a real question mark because then does that

890
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: open does Russia fear that that opens Pandora's box and

891
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: invite scrutiny on them just trying to fear that it

892
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 1: opens Pandora's box and invites scrutiny on them for their

893
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 1: treatment of the Veiger Muslim minority. So you know, even

894
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: countries like that that you might think would be on

895
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: South Africa side, there's a real question mark. So in

896
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 1: any case, you know it's going to be I think

897
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: it's important that South Africa did it. I think the

898
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: case they filed is incredibly detailed. The legal standard that

899
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: has to be met right now is not like a

900
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 1: final finding of genocide. It's just that it is plausible

901
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: that that's what's being committed right now. And I think,

902
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: you know, in my opinion, if you look at the

903
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: civilian death, if you look at the levels of starvation,

904
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: if you look at the vast number of comments. They

905
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: have six pages of comments from Varie Israeli officials talking

906
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 1: about you know, Palestinians as human animals and saying they

907
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 1: want to destroyal of Gaza and not but twenty twenty three,

908
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: et cetera. I think it is certainly plausible that that's

909
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: exactly what's happening. But we'll see how this all unfolds

910
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: and whether the activism here from this member of Kanesse

911
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 1: means anything. The last thing I wanted to close within

912
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: this section is there was just to show you that,

913
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, this conversation is important even within Israeli society.

914
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: There was Ajaretz up ed we can put this up

915
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: on the screen. Who that is basically saying, like, you know,

916
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 1: the South Africa really has a point.

917
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 4: Good luck to the ICJ.

918
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: Is really should hope it will decree to stop the

919
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,399
Speaker 1: Gaza operation. Israel to not go to war in order

920
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 1: to commit genocide this person's opinion, there is no doubt

921
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 1: about that, but it is committing it in practice, even

922
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: without intending to. Every day that goes by in this war,

923
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: with its hundreds of debts, reinforces the suspicion. So even

924
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: at Israeli newspaper here within a ed calling for the

925
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 1: ICJ to side with South Africa and find that it

926
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 1: is plausible that Israel is in fact committing genocide.

927
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's going to be fascinating to see how it

928
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 3: plays out.

929
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: So yesterday President Joe Biden went down to Charleston, South Carolina.

930
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 4: To give a political speech at the.

931
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,919
Speaker 1: Mother Emmanuel Ame Church. That is where, of course, Dylan

932
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: Rufe massacred so many people in a horrific incident. While

933
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: Biden was speaking, he was interrupted by protesters demanding a

934
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: ceasefire in gozill.

935
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,839
Speaker 9: Let's take a listen, well, the truth, there's no light,

936
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 9: all light, there's no path from your darkness.

937
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 8: Did you really here?

938
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 4: Alive?

939
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 3: Laws?

940
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 8: Here, the law, the fir.

941
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 10: That's all right, that's all right, that's all right.

942
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 9: I understand their passion, and I've been quietly working. I've

943
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 9: been quietly working with the Israeli government to get them

944
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:38,720
Speaker 9: to reduce and significantly get out of gossip, using all

945
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 9: I can to do.

946
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 4: So that is the way that unfolded.

947
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 1: You know, from my perspective, when you have protesters who

948
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: are demanding an end to the mass murder of children

949
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:52,959
Speaker 1: and other innocence, in the response is.

950
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 4: For more years.

951
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: It is a very dark, very dark situation. I mean, listen,

952
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: I would love soccer for Joe Biden in particular, but

953
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: for all politicians who are enabling this to have to

954
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: face these types of protests and face the horrors of

955
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: what they're enabling. I would love for them to have

956
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 1: to deal with that every single day. And you know,

957
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: the Biden campaign and the Biden administration their theory of

958
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,399
Speaker 1: the case of why oh, young people like they'll get

959
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: over it, Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, they'll get over it

960
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: when they remember that it's Donald Trump on the ballot.

961
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: They'll show back up, they'll come back around, and they

962
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: think that this will be in the cool rear view mirror.

963
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: And I think actions like this, which have persisted for

964
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: months at this point, are a very clear demonstration that no,

965
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 1: they're not getting over it, and there is no going

966
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: back to a time before this was all enabled by

967
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: Joe Biden.

968
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I was interested to play this and actually, maybe,

969
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 2: if you don't mind, could just set up the next element,

970
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 2: because I think this is going to be an instructive

971
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 2: conversation about protest, about its place in American life, usefulness,

972
00:46:57,719 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 2: you know, counter productivity and all of that.

973
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: So there were also yesterday mass protests in New York City.

974
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: We can go on and put this up on the

975
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: screen where pro cease fire protesters shut down three different bridges.

976
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: You can see this is the Brooklyn Bridge. They also

977
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 1: shut down the Holland Tunnel. That's what you're looking at here.

978
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 1: And here we have Manhattan Bridge, and I think we

979
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: had one more bridge. And this is an individual who

980
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 1: was upset because he is being delayed. I would probably

981
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: be upset too, and he's yelling at the protesters, getting

982
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 1: out of his car, shoving them, becoming irate. So this

983
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 1: was the scene that unfolded in New York yesterday. And

984
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: here you have police who are sawing through I believe

985
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: the chains that they had chained themselves together. And a

986
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: number of people were arrested in these protests, which shut

987
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 1: down traffic for I believe roughly like hour and a

988
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: half two hours yesterday in New York City.

989
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

990
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 2: So the reason I think this is a good juxtaposition

991
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 2: for me personally, I know you disagree, is that I

992
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 2: have this zero ish use with the protests the president

993
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 2: of the United States, but these protests drive me absolutely crazy,

994
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: and not only are they counterproductive, but I went back,

995
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 2: and I did a lot of reading, and my favorite

996
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 2: book on this subject about the New Left and the

997
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 2: rise of this type of protest and belief was it's

998
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 2: called Days of Rage, And what it is is that

999
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 2: if you actually see the way that they rhetoric, that

1000
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 2: was these organized things where they call them actions. Action

1001
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 2: is a traditional word in New Left activism, and it

1002
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 2: goes back to the days of the Weather Underground, of

1003
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 2: the Symbionese Liberation Army and many of these other crackpot

1004
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,359
Speaker 2: groups from back in that time. And those people had

1005
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 2: a fundamental belief that if you set off, you know,

1006
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 2: a thousand bombs or whatever what the Weather Underground and

1007
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: these types of groups did, if you kidnap Patty Hurst,

1008
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 2: if you you know, create awareness quote unquote, and you

1009
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 2: basically make life miserable and annoying for people, that they

1010
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 2: will rise up the great proletariat against the establishment. And instead,

1011
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 2: actually it was completely counterproductive. The vast majority of people

1012
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 2: hated these groups. They in supported law enforcement, and they

1013
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 2: turned against the very causes which the protest movements of

1014
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 2: the nineteen sixties on civil rights and on Vietnam work

1015
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,800
Speaker 2: extraordinarily successful. So what I would say to these Palestinian groups.

1016
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 2: Is that blocking working class people from traffic, or a

1017
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 2: man from his daughter, preventing people from picking or dropping

1018
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 2: off from school or for going to work is not

1019
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 2: only counterproductive, but is fundamentally stupid and it misses the

1020
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 2: point of fund who is actually in power for quote

1021
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: unquote awareness. So, for example, remember the debate about the

1022
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 2: lady who followed Kirsten Cinema into the bathroom and yelled

1023
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 2: at her, and.

1024
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 3: Everyone say, oh, this is outrageous breaking and I was like, hey, sorry,

1025
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 3: you know each hit. You know you are a politician.

1026
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:42,240
Speaker 3: It is what it is. I'm not saying it's pleasant.

1027
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 3: You can resign, go for it. I don't care.

1028
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, I believe in

1029
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 2: maximum's protests against people who are in power, but blocking

1030
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: normal folks from traffic, just as many of these climate

1031
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 2: folks have done.

1032
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 3: Also, the people who.

1033
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 2: Throw you know, what is it blood or whatever on

1034
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 2: these van go paintings and all that, this is just

1035
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 2: classic new left activism, and folks, you're gonna lose, just

1036
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 2: like the Black Panthers did, just like the Weather Underground,

1037
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 2: just like these other f So if you believe in

1038
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 2: making an impact, this is just the wrong, wrong thing

1039
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 2: to do, and I think he should be arrested. I

1040
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: don't think he should be doing or allowed to be

1041
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 2: doing such like this. It just doesn't work, and it

1042
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 2: just it misses the point about the center of gravity

1043
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 2: for Israel is not in the American populacet.

1044
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 3: The American populist supports a ceasefire.

1045
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 2: It is in Joe Biden, the United States Senate, and

1046
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 2: the DC establishment. So go outside the White House and

1047
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 2: protest all day long, and in fact, you know, go

1048
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 2: back and read that, Hey, hey, lbj Chance, they drove

1049
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 2: him nuts, and they arguably did have an impact on

1050
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 2: Vietnam policy. But blocking a Brooklyn man from going to

1051
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 2: see his daughter, I don't know, man' that's just so

1052
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 2: so wrong to me.

1053
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 1: So I disagree on basically every level. So they've been

1054
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: protesting outside the White House every day. Do you know

1055
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: what impact it's had?

1056
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 4: Nothing? Well, absolutely nothing.

1057
00:50:55,960 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: So to conflate this completely nonviolent protest, what's the weather underground?

1058
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: Nonviolent protest here? Blocking traffics, blocking bridges, blocking tunnels, to

1059
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: conflate that with the weather underground, these are that is

1060
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: just wildly wrong in interpase, I'm talking about this so

1061
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:15,879
Speaker 1: let me okay, but let me let me talk about

1062
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: the theory here. So, first of all, Number one, do

1063
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: I think that the cause of attempting to stop babies

1064
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: from being bombed, an entire population from being starved is important,

1065
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 1: vital and urgent enough to inconvenience people to justify inconveniencing people.

1066
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 4: That's the first test. That's the one thing you the

1067
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 4: first thing you've duck to. Yes, I do.

1068
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: I think it justifies inconveniencing people because of the vast scale,

1069
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,280
Speaker 1: unprecedented nature of the whoores that are being inflicted.

1070
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 4: That's number one.

1071
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:50,720
Speaker 1: Number two, the question is it effective? Listen, we can't

1072
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 1: really know in real time, but protests like mass protests

1073
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:58,839
Speaker 1: like this come out of the media era where the

1074
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: goal isn't you know, to persuade that gentleman in the

1075
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,760
Speaker 1: car who's very irate, or even you know, the people

1076
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: immediately there in New York.

1077
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 4: The goal is to get media.

1078
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: Attention to draw eyeballs to your cause. Did they accomplish that? Yes,

1079
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: one hundred percent. Have we covered any of the protests outside.

1080
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,359
Speaker 4: The White House? No, that's not true.

1081
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,720
Speaker 1: Are we covering now, you know, the protests that interrupted

1082
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: Joe Biden and these protests, which I think were very

1083
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: creative in fact, which disrupted life in New York City. Yes,

1084
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: so does it pass the test of it garners eyeballs.

1085
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:30,359
Speaker 8: Yes.

1086
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 1: Second piece of you know, what makes a protest effective?

1087
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 1: Does it win people over to your cause? And I'm

1088
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: not talking about overall majority opinion, although that can happen too,

1089
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 1: And usually when that happens is when there is a

1090
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: disproportionate response from police and other authorities that garners sympathy

1091
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 1: for the activists. You know, they were arrested. I wouldn't

1092
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 1: call the like response to be disproportionate or the sort

1093
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: of thing that would garner that sort of sympathy, But

1094
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: did it draw the sort of attention that could win

1095
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: more activist to their cause?

1096
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 4: Yes?

1097
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: Third question to your point, already a majority of the

1098
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: American public agrees with overwhelmingly once to cease fire. The

1099
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 1: one person who is determintive on this is Joe Biden.

1100
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: It's all about Joe Biden, right And what is Joe

1101
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 1: Biden telling himself right now? Because the only obviously he

1102
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 1: doesn't care about babies being killed in Gaza is pretty clear.

1103
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 1: Obviously he doesn't care about you know, the humanitarian situation

1104
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:27,879
Speaker 1: apparently doesn't care about the possibility of the US getting

1105
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 1: drawn into war, at least not enough to actually do

1106
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: something about it. What he might care about is his

1107
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 1: political prospects. They're telling themselves that this is going to

1108
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: be in the rear view mirror, and these protests, day

1109
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 1: after day, these mass actions, day after day, are a

1110
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 1: clear message aimed directly at Joe Biden. No, it won't

1111
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 1: be We are not going away, These disruptions are not

1112
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 1: going away. Life is not going to be normal again

1113
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 1: for you, certainly until you stop the bombing in Gaza.

1114
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: So on those metrics of success, just as a tactic,

1115
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 1: I think it passes. And then the last thing, which

1116
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 1: is perhaps the most important to me is, you know,

1117
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 1: if I look back at like non violent protesters against

1118
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 1: past horrors, you know, slavery, right, the abolitionists, those who

1119
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 1: protested against like the Holocaust, those who were protesting Jim

1120
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 1: Crow again non violently, I could not possibly even if

1121
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 1: I thought the tactic was like a little foolish or

1122
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 1: not going to work or whatever, which again I don't

1123
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 1: think that's the case here. But even if I did,

1124
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,840
Speaker 1: could I find it in my heart to criticize the

1125
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 1: people who are on the right side of history, who

1126
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: are trying to do everything they can to try to

1127
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: force some sort of an end to the horrores that

1128
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: are being inflicted here. No, there's no way I could

1129
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 1: find it in my heart to do so.

1130
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 3: I totally understand where you're coming from.

1131
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 2: But the reason why I have compared it to that

1132
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,240
Speaker 2: is about the theory of the case, which is about

1133
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 2: making life more miserable in a democracy. And I you

1134
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 2: know what, I can hear the emotion in your voice,

1135
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 2: and I just think is a fundamental disagreement. I mean,

1136
00:54:58,280 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, the people who are

1137
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 2: dying here or not American citizens, even in the case

1138
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 2: of Vietnam, like this was about American soldiers. But what

1139
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 2: I would disagree with is that you were saying, you know,

1140
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 2: we did cover a protest the White House. We sent

1141
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 2: our own mac over there in order to do the filming.

1142
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 2: But it took five ten years, you know, of protests

1143
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 2: against Vietnam. That's simply you know, you don't get to

1144
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 2: have immediate gratify.

1145
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:18,320
Speaker 4: In five or ten mirrors.

1146
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 1: There won't be a single Palestinian left in Gaza. I

1147
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 1: mean that's the thing. It's so immediate, and our people

1148
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,959
Speaker 1: are not dying yet. Actually, our soldiers came very close

1149
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 1: to being killed thanks to this conflict in Iraqi militias,

1150
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 1: you know, firing on them while they're sleeping in barracks.

1151
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,839
Speaker 1: So the risk is incredibly real. These are our tax

1152
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 1: dollars that are paying for these two thousand pounds bunk

1153
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 1: or buster bombs that are being dropped on civilians in Gaza.

1154
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:46,879
Speaker 1: So to be like, oh, this doesn't really concern of.

1155
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 4: Course it does.

1156
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: And clearly these protesters feel that incredibly, incredibly deeply. That's

1157
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 1: why they're doing whatever they can think of to do

1158
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 1: to try to disrupt this, try to put pressure on

1159
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 1: Joe Biden, because listen it honestly, it's it's not Unfortunately,

1160
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 1: it's not about winning people over in a democracy, because

1161
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 1: if that was the case, that be over already, it

1162
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: would be over already. This is not a democratic action.

1163
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 1: This is about pressuring Joe Biden and persuading him that

1164
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: this is not going away, This is not going to

1165
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 1: be in the rearview mirror. And so yes, I do

1166
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 1: think that attention grabbing actions like this could move the needle. Maybe,

1167
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: I mean listen, there's no guarantees, but could move the needle.

1168
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:26,760
Speaker 2: Here, let's reversing a look back. What was the result

1169
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 2: of nineteen sixty eight of the mass protest movement? What

1170
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 2: ended up happening a landslide election for Richard Nixon, who

1171
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 2: wanted to crack down on protests, the silent majority who

1172
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 2: despised and were angry at the hippies who had taken

1173
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:41,320
Speaker 2: over the cities and were doing.

1174
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,839
Speaker 1: There are no things soe Palestinian politicians on the ballot point.

1175
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 4: It's not like there's a better option.

1176
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 2: That vast majority of people, as we also saw post BLM,

1177
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,439
Speaker 2: turned against the BLM movement. You know that you could

1178
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 2: use the same justification for much of the looting another

1179
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 2: thing that a company.

1180
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 4: No, but those weren't right.

1181
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:02,839
Speaker 1: You cannot compare non violent protests in some instance turned violence. Yes,

1182
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 1: that is not a fair comparison.

1183
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 2: But let's look about the BLM ryot. Okay, let's look

1184
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 2: at the BLM nonviolent marches themselves, and about eventually what occurred,

1185
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 2: which was a mass social chilling against anybody, including people

1186
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 2: like me, who spoke out against what we thought was

1187
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 2: a ridiculous cause at the time. What ended up happening

1188
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 2: is that huge amounts of people felt as that they

1189
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 2: could now speak out then at the time, and ended

1190
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 2: up supporting more pro police policies. The net effect of

1191
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 2: BLM has had no impact on the overall cause I.

1192
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 1: Don't see the technology here because the people who feel

1193
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: they can't speak out right now are the people who

1194
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 1: are trying to defend Palestinians. So it's completely it's completely reversal.

1195
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: And again I think what people responded to because the

1196
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 1: original peaceful marches, I mean you remember it was overwhelmingly popular,

1197
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 1: You had huge constituencies, millions of people out in the street,

1198
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. I think what caused the backlash

1199
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: is the looting, is the violence that broke out in

1200
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: plenty of locations. There's no analogy here. There is no looting,

1201
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 1: there is no violence. This is a completely like textbook

1202
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 1: non violent civil action that is occurring here. And like

1203
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 1: I said, even if I thought it was like foolish,

1204
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 1: which again I don't, there is no way that I

1205
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: could look at what's unfolding and Gaza and be like

1206
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 1: where there are such clear villains and be like, oh,

1207
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 1: these people who are on the right side of history.

1208
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: They're the ones that I'm going to complain about. They're

1209
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 1: the ones that I'm going to criticize.

1210
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 2: I just don't think much of this right side of

1211
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 2: history stuff ends up standing up because the truth is

1212
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 2: I mean, everybody thinks so it's.

1213
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: A genocide, soberty, it is a genocide at the very least,

1214
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: it is a mass killing of civilians. If there is

1215
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 1: a right side of history that has ever been clear,

1216
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 1: which yes, you're right in many instances, it's a judgment call.

1217
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty compelling which is the right side

1218
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 1: of history here, just based on the numbers of civilians

1219
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: who are being massacred and starved at the moment.

1220
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 2: So I think that the mass killing, slaughter and all that.

1221
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 2: Here's the thing I not only condemned it. I've talked

1222
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 2: about with you now for two months straight. I'm talking

1223
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 2: about we live in a democracy, you know, actually not

1224
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 2: even inconveniencing. Who knows what if you stopped an ambulance

1225
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:11,919
Speaker 2: as we saw during Bridgegate, I mean we'd know about

1226
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 2: it now maybe maybe, but they personertainly could have done

1227
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 2: it, and they were willing to take that risk.

1228
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 3: That's fine. You're allowed to do that.

1229
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 2: As an American citizen, I think that as long as

1230
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 2: it's nonviolent, absolutely, and I don't think you should be

1231
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 2: treated badly in order that we're talking about what is

1232
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 2: the overall net democratic effect, and I think it's incredibly counterproductive.

1233
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 2: And then generally it goes back to that disagreement that

1234
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 2: we have here about New Left tactics, where yes, it

1235
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 2: bled into violence in the case of the Weather Underground,

1236
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 2: but fundamentally what it came from was a incan was

1237
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 2: that they believed they could no longer work within.

1238
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 3: The corridors of power in order to pressure them, and

1239
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 3: they were wrong.

1240
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 2: I believe that they were absolutely wrong, and because of

1241
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 2: that they ended up seating, actually infusing much of the

1242
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 2: New Left with the Democratic politicians, which allowed the overall

1243
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 2: Nickstonian takeover. So what I would say to many of

1244
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 2: these people who are doing this is yet turning the

1245
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 2: regular populace against you makes it so that the more

1246
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:09,439
Speaker 2: politically popular choice for Eric Adams and for Joe Biden

1247
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 2: would be to crack down on these protesters.

1248
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 3: It would be to send the police in, beat the

1249
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 3: shit out of them.

1250
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 4: And guess what would happen?

1251
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 1: Then, guess what would happen, then I actually don't know

1252
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 1: public opinion would turn in favor of the protests. I mean,

1253
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 1: if you look at the Civil rights movement, what caused

1254
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 1: the public to really turn and be.

1255
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 4: On their side.

1256
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 1: It's that way undreached dog on the protesters because they

1257
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 1: felt the same way. They're like, these people are annoying,

1258
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:32,520
Speaker 1: they're taking over our cities.

1259
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 4: This rabble needs to go.

1260
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 1: If you have a protest that is inconveniencing no one,

1261
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 1: you know what it's going to do, absolutely freaking nothing.

1262
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 3: Well, you should think convenienced the right thing, which are

1263
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 3: the people in power.

1264
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 2: You should go outside the White House and you should scream,

1265
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 2: which is what they should listen.

1266
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 3: That's what they did in Vietnam. And you can say

1267
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 3: that it didn't have an effect.

1268
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 2: I think it had a tremendous effect, that occupation of

1269
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 2: that ground about that White House. I think that those

1270
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 2: protests that were eventually, for example, at that time college

1271
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 2: sit ins did nothing. Screaming outside of the White House

1272
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:02,680
Speaker 2: had a massive pact on overall US policy. Or for example,

1273
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 2: when President Nixon showed up at the Lincoln Memorial in

1274
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 2: order to talk with the protesters there and to figure

1275
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 2: out He's like, why can I cannot connect with those folks.

1276
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 2: That was occupation of a federal monument and a specific

1277
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 2: you know, protest against a policy. But the overall American

1278
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 2: populace dramatically rejected this, as we can see from the

1279
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 2: historical record. And I would disagree because at the time

1280
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 2: what shocked the Northern conscious is that they were already

1281
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 2: on the side of the civil rights protesters here they

1282
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 2: had not seen the validation of that cause. But that

1283
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 2: Israel is a fifty fifty split, not.

1284
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: In terms of most fire, not in terms of a ceasefire.

1285
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: But again, Sager, the idea that having a majority of

1286
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 1: people support a ceasefire is going to change anything is

1287
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 1: clearly not true. Like that's clearly not true. So in

1288
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 1: my opinion, the most effective thing is to try to

1289
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 1: create pressure that convinces Joe Biden that this is not

1290
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 1: going away. That's your best hope, because it really comes

1291
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:04,480
Speaker 1: down to this one senile old man who is deluding

1292
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: himself into you know what, justifying atrocities and is turned

1293
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 1: out to be a complete monster.

1294
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 4: That's your whole goal.

1295
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:15,920
Speaker 1: And so listen, are there guarantees that this action or

1296
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 1: any other action is going to influence this one senile

1297
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: old man. No, but anything that you're doing that is

1298
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 1: aimed at persuading him and his political coterie that this

1299
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:31,920
Speaker 1: is not going away, and that people feel really strongly

1300
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 1: about this, so strongly they're willing to shut down bridges

1301
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 1: in Manhattan and piss off a bunch of motorists.

1302
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:39,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's costless to them. The cost is paid

1303
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 2: by the motorists. I mean, that's kind of my pay.

1304
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 1: And we'll just view this differently because given the ten

1305
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 1: kids every day are losing their legs in Gasa, right,

1306
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:53,440
Speaker 1: half of the population is starving to death. Ninety percent

1307
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:57,280
Speaker 1: doesn't have a mail a day. It has already been

1308
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 1: rendered uninhabitable. The level of instruction is beyond Dresden and

1309
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 1: some of the other you know, horrors of the past,

1310
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 1: like that's where we are. So when I put that

1311
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 1: up against inconveniencing motorists for a couple hours during rush hour,

1312
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:15,320
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but I think it justifies that inconvenience.

1313
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 3: You could say that for anything.

1314
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 2: I mean, you could make that for literally, for any

1315
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 2: cause that you sufficiently believe in. And so I'm not

1316
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:22,959
Speaker 2: putting down you can you could believe whatever you want,

1317
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 2: but I mean.

1318
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 4: The really that's moral relativism.

1319
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 2: But it is moral relatives everybody believe January sixth, people

1320
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 2: believe that they're saving democracy.

1321
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:30,919
Speaker 3: That doesn't justify what they were doing.

1322
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 1: That's what they believed in the fact, in the reality,

1323
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 1: not as a judgment civilian death is I mean, these

1324
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 1: are two very different things. So yes, in a sense,

1325
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 1: everything is subjective, but in another sense, like it's very

1326
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 1: clear what's unfolding here, and when you're just stack up

1327
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 1: the number of innocent lives that are lost, you know,

1328
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 1: to put that against inconveniencing people, Yes, I think it's yes,

1329
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 1: I think it's just. And like I said, I there

1330
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: is no way that I can criticize these people who

1331
01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:59,080
Speaker 1: I admire, who I wish I was more like them

1332
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:01,040
Speaker 1: to have the current to go out and do these

1333
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 1: sorts of things and try to affect try to you know,

1334
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: rescue the lives of people that they don't even know

1335
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 1: in the Gaza Strup.

1336
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 2: But that's kind of my point is that I actually

1337
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 2: think you're doing far more of a service to the

1338
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 2: cause of sitting here and we're talking, you know, having

1339
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 2: an intelligent conversation, and we're talking about the news, and

1340
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 2: you probably changed ten times more minds than any of

1341
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 2: those people have. So I disagree with that actually completely.

1342
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 2: And I just think that is that justification is one

1343
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,120
Speaker 2: that anybody could use for anything.

1344
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, but sometimes it will be right and sometimes it

1345
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 1: would not be.

1346
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:30,240
Speaker 3: Who decides that. Nobody decides that.

1347
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 2: I mean, look, I could give the exact countercase, which

1348
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 2: is that these people, you know, the Israeli case on

1349
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 2: this is these people support Hamas. These are we're making

1350
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 2: sure that the safety of our and what I said

1351
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 2: is not a lot. I mean, what they helped is

1352
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 2: they helped elect them. At the very least they lived

1353
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 2: under their rule. I don't believe this, to be clear,

1354
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 2: I'm giving what they could say. So obviously we need

1355
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 2: to make sure that we have a safe zone around

1356
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:50,760
Speaker 2: our territory. We have a military capability to do so

1357
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,920
Speaker 2: that they don't. History belongs to the victors, So be it.

1358
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:56,720
Speaker 1: You're just whod moral relative. There is no right and wrong.

1359
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 1: You can't say a genocide is wrong, ethnic cleansing is wrong.

1360
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 1: These are they things that are worth in community.

1361
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 3: I think this is really action is wrong.

1362
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 2: I'm saying though, that you can make this case in

1363
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:07,920
Speaker 2: any form and that such. Then that's why baseline rules

1364
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:11,200
Speaker 2: overall matter, and that you should make sure that you're

1365
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 2: trying to look I just simply don't believe in doing

1366
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:15,960
Speaker 2: things that aren't going to do anything. So, for example,

1367
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 2: that's why I think this is deeply counterproductive blocking people

1368
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 2: in traffic. Same with the climate changing. Do I think

1369
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:23,520
Speaker 2: anthropogenic climate change is real?

1370
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 3: Yes? Do I think that, you know, defacing Van Go

1371
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 3: paintings and all that is going to do with you

1372
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:28,480
Speaker 3: about it?

1373
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 4: No?

1374
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:30,440
Speaker 3: And that's why I believe in nuclear power, and that's

1375
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 3: why I talk about it.

1376
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 1: I don't think that's productive either. This is different. This

1377
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 1: is a different action, and it's much more targeted, and

1378
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:40,920
Speaker 1: it's much more immediate. There is a very clear demand,

1379
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 1: there's a very clear individual who needs to be influenced,

1380
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:47,400
Speaker 1: and so I I just basically disagree on every level.

1381
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:49,920
Speaker 1: I disagree that it's not effective. I disagree that it

1382
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:53,240
Speaker 1: is wrong in morally wrong in any sort of sense.

1383
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 1: These people are morally righteous to me, There's never been

1384
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 1: anything more clear. And number three, I just like there

1385
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 1: are villain right now, very clear villains. One of them

1386
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 1: is like, you know, a mile away from here in

1387
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:07,080
Speaker 1: the White House, and to spend any time criticizing the

1388
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:09,680
Speaker 1: people who are trying to avert atrocities.

1389
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:12,960
Speaker 2: I think that's fair ruy so, but if you were,

1390
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 2: let's what if they crossed into the realm of violence, then.

1391
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 1: What well, then that's a different story. But that do

1392
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:19,560
Speaker 1: have non violent but then we do have to try.

1393
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 4: This is non.

1394
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 3: Violent realms within people operations, right, get.

1395
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:28,600
Speaker 1: Within nonviolence, nonviolent protests. Will I criticize non violent protesters

1396
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:31,919
Speaker 1: who are saying no to genocide now or any other

1397
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 1: time in the past. No, I will not criticize them.

1398
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 2: I just think that when we talk about effectiveness and

1399
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:40,600
Speaker 2: about power and about what actually matters and what moves

1400
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:42,560
Speaker 2: the needle, I don't see this as moving that at all.

1401
01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 2: I think the Biden one actually might and in fact,

1402
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:47,080
Speaker 2: if that continues, that's something that he's going to have

1403
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 2: to do.

1404
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:50,080
Speaker 1: We have to try lots of things. And again, contentious

1405
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:53,200
Speaker 1: politics like they are contentious for a reason. If they're

1406
01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:56,720
Speaker 1: not upsetting anyone or irritating anyone or causing any friction,

1407
01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:59,160
Speaker 1: they go completely unnoticed and they're completely pointless.

1408
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:01,600
Speaker 3: You may be right, but then we can't complain.

1409
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 2: Then whenever causes that we don't support subject themselves to

1410
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 2: the same level of tactics. And that's more where you know,

1411
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 2: I see not only medias like.

1412
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 1: The anti vax people who took over the city and Canada.

1413
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 2: Right, it didn't really work though unfortunately for them, you know,

1414
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:15,920
Speaker 2: I mean, they got cleared out by the police. The

1415
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:18,520
Speaker 2: Canadian populace largely turned against them. They had a massive

1416
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 2: police state crackdown. From what I can tell, Trudeau got

1417
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:23,640
Speaker 2: himself reelected again. I don't did much.

1418
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 1: I just don't agree with this moral relativism of like,

1419
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 1: who can even say what's right or wrong? And all

1420
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 1: costs causes could theoretically be just It's like, okay, but

1421
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:35,640
Speaker 1: there are some things that should be really clearly off

1422
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 1: the table that we should be very able to, very

1423
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,400
Speaker 1: clearly say this is right and this is wrong. And

1424
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,600
Speaker 1: to me, again, this is the most clear cut instance

1425
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:45,120
Speaker 1: I've perhaps ever seen in my life.

1426
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 3: Okay, Lory go reader disagree. Let's move on to the

1427
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 3: next one.

1428
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 2: At the same time, we got to turn over to

1429
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:55,000
Speaker 2: domestic politics. What's happening here in America. It's primary season.

1430
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 2: We got a shocking new poll here. Let's put it

1431
01:07:56,960 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 2: up there on the screen, and what does it show

1432
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:02,960
Speaker 2: my god, Nicki Haley coming within single digits in a

1433
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:06,520
Speaker 2: CNN poll, up twelve points since November, Trumps standing at

1434
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 2: thirty nine points, Haley thirty two, Chris Christy twelve, Vivek eight,

1435
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:14,080
Speaker 2: and DeSantis five. So Nicki Haley is certainly surging at

1436
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:16,559
Speaker 2: least that certainly seems to be the consensus, and not

1437
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 2: just in this pole Crystal, but in a variety of

1438
01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:22,000
Speaker 2: other ones that we have seen, and it actually fits

1439
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 2: I think with Trump's overall strategy. He no longer has

1440
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 2: been talking as much about Ron DeSantis. He's been talking

1441
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:30,720
Speaker 2: much more about her. He took that opportunity on the

1442
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 2: pulpit to go after her for her slavery comments about

1443
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:34,800
Speaker 2: the Civil War, and I.

1444
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:36,639
Speaker 3: Wish I've been here for that. Let's take a lesson.

1445
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:38,519
Speaker 11: You know, they asked her about the Civil War, why

1446
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:40,599
Speaker 11: did it start? How did it start? She didn't use

1447
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 11: the word slavery, which was interesting. I don't know that

1448
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:45,960
Speaker 11: it's it's going to have an impact, but you know,

1449
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 11: I'd say slavery is sort of the obvious answer, supposed

1450
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:52,160
Speaker 11: to supposed to about three paragraphs of bullshit?

1451
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 3: Are christ won't that's so good? You gotta get it

1452
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 3: to him. You have to hand it to him. Grizly

1453
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:00,120
Speaker 3: this he gets to the crux of it.

1454
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:03,439
Speaker 2: It's also funny because I haven't gotten to weigh on this,

1455
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:06,400
Speaker 2: and there's nothing I actually hate more than Lost Cause stuff.

1456
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:11,439
Speaker 2: And so for her, she I believed didn't know or

1457
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:13,559
Speaker 2: she did not have a real position on this. She

1458
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:15,680
Speaker 2: in her head was like, well, I can't say it's

1459
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:18,479
Speaker 2: about slavery because these GOP voters are so racist that

1460
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 2: they're going to get mad at me for saying it.

1461
01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:23,000
Speaker 2: Whereas Trump is like if slavery instead of free paragraphs

1462
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:25,200
Speaker 2: the bullshit, and he's overwhelmingly more popular.

1463
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's also to such a disdain to voters.

1464
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:31,360
Speaker 1: It's also the context of him being a New Yorker yes,

1465
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:34,280
Speaker 1: and her being it's not Carolinian who's like imbibed all

1466
01:09:34,320 --> 01:09:37,240
Speaker 1: of this weird lost Cause bullshit, where it's like, I

1467
01:09:37,280 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 1: can't I can't say a slavery when it even the

1468
01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:42,639
Speaker 1: way she approached the question, remember she was like, oh,

1469
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:43,439
Speaker 1: this is a tough question.

1470
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:45,680
Speaker 3: Yes, I watched like the worlds. It's like, actually not

1471
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:46,479
Speaker 3: a tough question.

1472
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 4: It's like top it should be you.

1473
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 3: Can say states rights about slavery, it.

1474
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:52,040
Speaker 4: Should be the easiest question of all time.

1475
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, Trump unfortunately, using his superpower of humor, there's

1476
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 1: a great effect.

1477
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:59,320
Speaker 2: Trump is the true master of this of this art.

1478
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:02,160
Speaker 2: Now we've I've seen Nikki Haley in her last ad

1479
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:04,920
Speaker 2: in Iowa. This seems to be the way that she

1480
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:09,519
Speaker 2: wants to She wants to draw a difference between her

1481
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,200
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump. Here she's talking about a president with

1482
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:14,639
Speaker 2: grit and grace, a different style, and not a name

1483
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:15,640
Speaker 2: from the past.

1484
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:18,240
Speaker 3: While flashing images of the two. Let's take a listen

1485
01:10:18,240 --> 01:10:18,439
Speaker 3: to that.

1486
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:23,600
Speaker 12: A president with grit and grace, a different style, not

1487
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:28,160
Speaker 12: a name from the past. Your family deserves a border secure,

1488
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:32,000
Speaker 12: an economy restored, a nation respected.

1489
01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:35,519
Speaker 3: Our moment is now, our mission is clear.

1490
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:39,160
Speaker 1: Let's save our country and secure our future, and let's

1491
01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 1: move forward together toward our.

1492
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:44,680
Speaker 9: Destiny in a strong and proud America.

1493
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:47,280
Speaker 2: Pretty cookie cutter message there that you see, Crystal. But

1494
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:50,519
Speaker 2: you know, it's interesting that that's as far as.

1495
01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:52,880
Speaker 3: She'll go whenever it comes to criticizing Trump. That's it

1496
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:55,120
Speaker 3: just not a name from the past, a name from

1497
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:55,559
Speaker 3: the future.

1498
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,240
Speaker 2: But I gotta be honest, she's done an extraordinarily more

1499
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,519
Speaker 2: better than I thought she Yeah, in New Hampshire.

1500
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 3: It does though, like I've always said, it kind of

1501
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:04,000
Speaker 3: makes sense.

1502
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 2: She is the natural anti Trump candidate and she embodies

1503
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:09,240
Speaker 2: everything from the past, So people who might have liked

1504
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:11,200
Speaker 2: the Dick Cheney and that type of politics, this is

1505
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:12,000
Speaker 2: who you should vote for.

1506
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 1: Well, after Ron kind of fell off and was like

1507
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 1: super awkward and not gaining traction, whatever, the donor has

1508
01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:20,559
Speaker 1: all got behind Nikkeys. She had that first debate which

1509
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:23,840
Speaker 1: was very effective, which you know, she actually garnered a

1510
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:26,280
Speaker 1: bump in the polls from her debate. Performances continued to

1511
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:28,520
Speaker 1: climb from there, at least in New Hampshire.

1512
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:31,600
Speaker 4: I mean, my question for you, like, I guess.

1513
01:11:31,360 --> 01:11:34,960
Speaker 1: Her theory is, all right, Iowa was whatever, I'm going

1514
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:37,360
Speaker 1: to lose there, and she even said something weird like

1515
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:38,519
Speaker 1: New Hampshire will correct.

1516
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, what happens.

1517
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:41,360
Speaker 1: In Iowa, which was like a little bit too much

1518
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:41,879
Speaker 1: the quiet.

1519
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:42,240
Speaker 4: Part out loud.

1520
01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 1: But anyway, her theory is then if she goes and

1521
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 1: has this upset win in New Hampshire, that's going to

1522
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 1: completely change the game. It's going to show that someone

1523
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:53,679
Speaker 1: else can win, and then she'll just pick up ahead

1524
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:54,240
Speaker 1: of steam.

1525
01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:56,479
Speaker 4: From there and be able to roll on through.

1526
01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:59,559
Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that there's anything to that case,

1527
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:02,680
Speaker 1: because I don't really think there is.

1528
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:04,040
Speaker 3: But let me make I don't either.

1529
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:06,479
Speaker 1: Let me make the Devil's Advocate case, which is, like,

1530
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 1: you know, Trump feels so invincible and his whole reputation

1531
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:14,320
Speaker 1: is staked on being a winner, and if Nicky Birdbreing

1532
01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:17,280
Speaker 1: Haley comes out and beats him in New Hampshire, a

1533
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:19,839
Speaker 1: state that historically he did well in in the past,

1534
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:22,040
Speaker 1: that that would be a real blow to him. And

1535
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:24,040
Speaker 1: then that would open people up. You probably have everybody

1536
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 1: else drop out of the race.

1537
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:25,479
Speaker 4: At that point.

1538
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 1: It would be head to head Nicki versus Trump, and

1539
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:30,519
Speaker 1: maybe that will open people up to this idea that

1540
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:31,760
Speaker 1: it's actually time to move on.

1541
01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:34,360
Speaker 2: If there's a case that's it, I don't think it's practical,

1542
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 2: But let's look to a little bit of history. I mean,

1543
01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:39,680
Speaker 2: it's complicated because you're comparing apples to oranges, but you know,

1544
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:43,439
Speaker 2: Bill Clinton crashes in Iowa, comes to New Hampshire the

1545
01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:47,080
Speaker 2: comeback kid, he gets the headline, goes through Super Tuesday,

1546
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 2: does pretty well, steals it all up, and he owes

1547
01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 2: it all to New Hampshire to this day, he says,

1548
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:54,360
Speaker 2: that's where I know officially won the presidency. You could

1549
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:55,880
Speaker 2: flip it, though, and you can look at the fact

1550
01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:58,960
Speaker 2: that Barack Obama won Iowa, then he lost New Hampshire.

1551
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:01,879
Speaker 2: But because he won Iowa always able to win South Carolina.

1552
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:03,960
Speaker 2: So I can give two examples, you know, where it

1553
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 2: did matter and what we didn't. I think for Trump,

1554
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 2: New Hampshire is really the first primary ever won in

1555
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:11,840
Speaker 2: the race. I still think he's probably going to win.

1556
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 2: There's also a big question mark here are these poles

1557
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:17,360
Speaker 2: even right Crystal Hell? Do we know you could see

1558
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 2: mass movement towards it, like what if the final tally

1559
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:22,880
Speaker 2: If I recall in twenty sixteen, the poll was slightly off,

1560
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:26,519
Speaker 2: especially because the effects of a Trump win in Iowa

1561
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 2: have not been factored into this, so you have the

1562
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:32,160
Speaker 2: inevitability argument about, oh well, Trump just won Iowa, so

1563
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:34,559
Speaker 2: we'll do something a little bit different here. There's a

1564
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 2: lot of contraveting elements here where overall I still't think

1565
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 2: any of it matters because in South Carolina, her own

1566
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:43,760
Speaker 2: home state, in traditional politics, she should drop out if

1567
01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:45,320
Speaker 2: she doesn't win. If you can't win your own home

1568
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:47,479
Speaker 2: state you should never continue in the race. That's generally

1569
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:51,360
Speaker 2: how it goes. So then we have Super Tuesday and Nevada,

1570
01:13:51,439 --> 01:13:53,920
Speaker 2: which you know, come afterwards, Trump is you know, crushing

1571
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:57,720
Speaker 2: by a mile, and people forget California is now part

1572
01:13:57,720 --> 01:14:00,000
Speaker 2: of Super Tuesday. Trump is up in California by fifty points.

1573
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:03,200
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just not even a competition right now.

1574
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:05,720
Speaker 1: So again, I don't agree with this announcement, but I'm

1575
01:14:05,720 --> 01:14:08,040
Speaker 1: going to play Devil's advocate and try to take Nicky's

1576
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:11,880
Speaker 1: side here. So what worked for Barack Obama why he

1577
01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:14,719
Speaker 1: had such a surge after Iowa Is it effectively created

1578
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:16,960
Speaker 1: a permission structure for a lot of people who wanted

1579
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:18,720
Speaker 1: to vote for him but didn't know if he could

1580
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:20,960
Speaker 1: really win, and black voters in particular, And that's why

1581
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:23,120
Speaker 1: he goes on to you know, succeed in South Carolina

1582
01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:28,120
Speaker 1: and the rest is history. Maybe there's some group of

1583
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:31,080
Speaker 1: Republican voters who are kind of sick of Trump and

1584
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:33,639
Speaker 1: kind of sick of the chaos and don't really want

1585
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:36,080
Speaker 1: this dude with all these criminal indictments hanging over his

1586
01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:37,200
Speaker 1: head and all.

1587
01:14:37,080 --> 01:14:38,559
Speaker 4: That you know, he entails.

1588
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:42,360
Speaker 1: Maybe they would like some sort of a break from

1589
01:14:42,439 --> 01:14:45,719
Speaker 1: him and to move to you know, what does Nicky say,

1590
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:46,960
Speaker 1: like not a name of the past.

1591
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:48,559
Speaker 4: Maybe there's some group out.

1592
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:50,600
Speaker 1: There that feels like ah, but everybody's with Trump, and

1593
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:52,559
Speaker 1: I just got to stick with Trump, and we got

1594
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:55,559
Speaker 1: to back up Trump because he's under attack from the liberals,

1595
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:57,960
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. And so maybe if you do

1596
01:14:58,040 --> 01:15:00,400
Speaker 1: see a state go for Nicki Haley, maybe there is

1597
01:15:00,439 --> 01:15:04,840
Speaker 1: some group that needs that permission structure to jump from

1598
01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:08,519
Speaker 1: the Trump train to the Nikki ship.

1599
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:12,479
Speaker 2: If listen, anything is possible in America, all right, So the.

1600
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:14,519
Speaker 4: Real question, he's going to freak out if you lose

1601
01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:16,240
Speaker 4: this new nature. The only thing I would say, is

1602
01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:18,519
Speaker 4: there such high expectations for Trump at that's true too.

1603
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:22,599
Speaker 1: If he wins Iowa but underperforms, that also is kind.

1604
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:22,880
Speaker 4: Of a problem.

1605
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 3: You're not wrong.

1606
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:25,519
Speaker 2: And so let's say he wins New Hampshire by two points,

1607
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:27,120
Speaker 2: and then she can have a you know, a theory

1608
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 2: of the case or whatever. So why she could win

1609
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:30,920
Speaker 2: South Carolina. We could see it, although I still don't

1610
01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:33,840
Speaker 2: think it's really going to happen. Let's also give Ron

1611
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 2: DeSantis his due. This is his last ad in Iowa.

1612
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:37,040
Speaker 3: Let's take a listen.

1613
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:39,759
Speaker 6: Wall Street funded Nikki Haley just said in New Hampshire.

1614
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:41,040
Speaker 6: You know Iowa starts.

1615
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:43,480
Speaker 3: You know that you correct it.

1616
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:46,320
Speaker 12: Hailey disparages the Caucuses and insults you.

1617
01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:51,760
Speaker 13: It's Ron Dessantis who embodies and defends Iowa's values of faith, family.

1618
01:15:51,479 --> 01:15:52,000
Speaker 7: And freedom.

1619
01:15:53,160 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 6: He's tirelessly working to earn your support.

1620
01:15:56,880 --> 01:16:00,400
Speaker 3: Donald Trump is running for his issues. Nicky Hayley's running

1621
01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:03,720
Speaker 3: for for donors issues. I'm running for your issue. I'm

1622
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:06,759
Speaker 3: run DeSantis and I approved this message, Okay.

1623
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:08,320
Speaker 2: I mean it's probably the best that he can do.

1624
01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:10,679
Speaker 2: Things not looking necessarily the best for him right.

1625
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:12,559
Speaker 1: Now, and it's sort of pathetic that he's even taking

1626
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:13,719
Speaker 1: aim and Nikki it's this.

1627
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:15,519
Speaker 2: Well, right, I think it's just it is that she's

1628
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:18,240
Speaker 2: bleeding into here. Can we please put CE five up

1629
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:21,280
Speaker 2: on the screen the maps, guys, because this is his

1630
01:16:21,439 --> 01:16:23,479
Speaker 2: only chance right now. Where if you look at the

1631
01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:25,800
Speaker 2: two side by side, he clearly has done way more

1632
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:28,920
Speaker 2: events in fifty seven counties. But Christal, if you look

1633
01:16:29,000 --> 01:16:30,920
Speaker 2: at the number of events and the counties where he

1634
01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:33,240
Speaker 2: did them, I went back and checked, these are all

1635
01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:36,879
Speaker 2: the places which Ted Cruz actually won in twenty sixteen,

1636
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:40,639
Speaker 2: so he is trying to recreate the Ted Cruz victory

1637
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:43,000
Speaker 2: of twenty sixteen in the Iowa caucuses. What I would

1638
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:44,920
Speaker 2: just say is that's a footnote to history for a

1639
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:46,479
Speaker 2: reason is guess what, it didn't matter.

1640
01:16:46,520 --> 01:16:48,200
Speaker 3: The only thing that ended up happening is Ted one

1641
01:16:48,280 --> 01:16:49,519
Speaker 3: Iowa and he one Texas.

1642
01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:52,280
Speaker 2: So it didn't exactly work out so well for him

1643
01:16:52,280 --> 01:16:55,000
Speaker 2: in the overall the thing is for DeSantis is this

1644
01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 2: is a lasted ch effort. He's hoping and praying for

1645
01:16:58,160 --> 01:17:01,599
Speaker 2: more of a surprise in the car. But overall, if

1646
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:03,679
Speaker 2: we can put the next one up, guys the other maps.

1647
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:06,800
Speaker 2: What's really sad about this is the overall decline of

1648
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:09,960
Speaker 2: retail politics. Because Nikki Haley, she's done fifty one events

1649
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:10,719
Speaker 2: in thirty counties.

1650
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:11,800
Speaker 3: I mean, look at the vague.

1651
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:14,240
Speaker 2: He's done two hundred and thirty nine events in ninety

1652
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:15,280
Speaker 2: four counties.

1653
01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:17,439
Speaker 3: Thirty five years ago. That actually mattered.

1654
01:17:17,479 --> 01:17:19,840
Speaker 2: And yet if you look at the polls of where

1655
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:22,719
Speaker 2: he is in Iowa, it's like four maybe five percent.

1656
01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:25,120
Speaker 3: The sad truth is is that this whole.

1657
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:28,000
Speaker 2: Visiting all ninety nine counties of Iowa and spending time

1658
01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:30,320
Speaker 2: on the ground like Season six or whatever of the

1659
01:17:30,320 --> 01:17:30,840
Speaker 2: West wing.

1660
01:17:31,160 --> 01:17:33,400
Speaker 3: That stuff just it. It doesn't matter anymore, you know, it's

1661
01:17:33,479 --> 01:17:34,559
Speaker 3: all national.

1662
01:17:34,640 --> 01:17:37,280
Speaker 2: It all comes down to television and the Internet and

1663
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:40,479
Speaker 2: what people are consuming in the issue set in terms

1664
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:43,240
Speaker 2: of them attending an event. Yeah, sometimes it can be

1665
01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:47,160
Speaker 2: a relative predictor, but on the margins doesn't really matter anymore.

1666
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:47,400
Speaker 4: No, it doesn't.

1667
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:51,160
Speaker 1: The retail politics, the traditional campaign events are basically like

1668
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:54,679
Speaker 1: a Potempkin village for the reality, you know, to cover

1669
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:57,160
Speaker 1: the reality that your campaign is just all about media.

1670
01:17:57,240 --> 01:17:59,679
Speaker 1: And if you misunderstand that, you just misunderstand the nature

1671
01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:03,760
Speaker 1: of modern politics. The one thing the Iowa caucuses are

1672
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:06,559
Speaker 1: unique in that, because of the nature of having to

1673
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:09,800
Speaker 1: go in a certain times weird process and whatever, it

1674
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:14,400
Speaker 1: does matter that you have effective organization on the ground.

1675
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:18,280
Speaker 1: And I genuinely don't know which campaign has good organization

1676
01:18:18,360 --> 01:18:19,439
Speaker 1: on the ground and which doesn't.

1677
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:20,120
Speaker 4: I just don't know.

1678
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 1: I haven't you know, I haven't seen much reporting about it.

1679
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:25,519
Speaker 1: I do know that the DeSantis campaign has been in

1680
01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:29,439
Speaker 1: complete disarray, and they had this whole theory that they

1681
01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:31,920
Speaker 1: were going to run the campaign effectively through the superpack,

1682
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:36,439
Speaker 1: and then the super pac was bad and blackluster and

1683
01:18:36,479 --> 01:18:38,479
Speaker 1: like not doing a good job and pissed off Roun

1684
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:41,120
Speaker 1: de Santis and so that sort of you know, they

1685
01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:43,720
Speaker 1: had CEOs leaving week after week after week and a

1686
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:45,960
Speaker 1: total leadership crisis there, and then they're like, all right,

1687
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:50,240
Speaker 1: we'll use this other superpack. So the top level signs

1688
01:18:50,280 --> 01:18:52,800
Speaker 1: that this is a well organized campaign aren't there. But hey,

1689
01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:54,960
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe on the ground in Iowa they've

1690
01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:57,519
Speaker 1: done a good job, effective job organizing, and that's what

1691
01:18:57,560 --> 01:18:58,160
Speaker 1: they're betting on.

1692
01:18:58,800 --> 01:18:59,839
Speaker 3: I just don't know possible.

1693
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:01,920
Speaker 2: I mean, just to return to New Hampshire and to

1694
01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:04,200
Speaker 2: underscore you know, we've seen this too. Let's put this

1695
01:19:04,280 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 2: up there from arg and they're more recently a Republican pole.

1696
01:19:08,280 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 2: We can put C four please up on the screen.

1697
01:19:10,200 --> 01:19:12,280
Speaker 2: I mean, what you see here is Donald Trump at

1698
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:16,240
Speaker 2: thirty seven percent, Nicky Haley at thirty three percent, Chris Christy,

1699
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:18,799
Speaker 2: I mean he's actually at ten percent.

1700
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:21,200
Speaker 3: Previously was Ron.

1701
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:24,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, he certainly is. Ron DeSantis is at five. Obviously

1702
01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:26,639
Speaker 2: it was at six and Vin vive Ramaswami at four

1703
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:29,200
Speaker 2: and five. So DeSantis, you know, competing with Vivik for

1704
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:31,280
Speaker 2: the JEB position of New Hampshire.

1705
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:36,360
Speaker 3: Hampshire heyea, right, there you go. That's the case for

1706
01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:39,679
Speaker 3: maybe why it might work out. But things looking pretty

1707
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:40,200
Speaker 3: good right now.

1708
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:43,519
Speaker 2: I think for Donald Trump, the Nicky Haley position and

1709
01:19:43,680 --> 01:19:46,679
Speaker 2: the victory that she would want to see is one

1710
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:50,320
Speaker 2: where she would beat Trump up in that slight margin

1711
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:52,960
Speaker 2: and it would lead to some sort of you know,

1712
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:56,920
Speaker 2: some sort of momentum about something in South Carolina. But

1713
01:19:57,160 --> 01:19:59,400
Speaker 2: there's just not a lot of evidence that bears any

1714
01:19:59,439 --> 01:19:59,760
Speaker 2: of it out.

1715
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:00,559
Speaker 3: See it.

1716
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:04,200
Speaker 1: We'll see how it happens. You know, you never know, right,

1717
01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:07,000
Speaker 1: Crazier things have happened before. I will say, just to

1718
01:20:07,040 --> 01:20:10,559
Speaker 1: emphasize again, you know it's difficult to say, Okay, if

1719
01:20:10,560 --> 01:20:12,360
Speaker 1: this person drops out, then all their voters are going

1720
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:13,040
Speaker 1: to go in one place?

1721
01:20:13,120 --> 01:20:13,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, nobody.

1722
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:16,080
Speaker 1: But we know that the Chris Christie voters are not

1723
01:20:16,120 --> 01:20:18,320
Speaker 1: going to go to Dondue, right That one is like

1724
01:20:18,439 --> 01:20:22,360
Speaker 1: as clear as it probably gets. They're probably likely to

1725
01:20:22,479 --> 01:20:25,760
Speaker 1: go majority to Nikki Ailey. And so it's funny that

1726
01:20:25,840 --> 01:20:30,160
Speaker 1: effectively Chris Christy, who is the most aggressive Trump critic

1727
01:20:30,280 --> 01:20:33,519
Speaker 1: in the race, may be giving him exactly the boost

1728
01:20:33,600 --> 01:20:36,400
Speaker 1: that he needs in New Hampshire in order to prevail

1729
01:20:36,400 --> 01:20:36,920
Speaker 1: over Niki.

1730
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:38,160
Speaker 4: Will see how it all plays out.

1731
01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:40,080
Speaker 1: And as you said, listen, we should take all these

1732
01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:42,040
Speaker 1: poles with the massive grain of salt.

1733
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:45,160
Speaker 2: Anyway, I actually I'm excited to see because the last

1734
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:47,400
Speaker 2: Iowa poll is going to come out soon and we

1735
01:20:47,439 --> 01:20:49,559
Speaker 2: will see. It's always fun to compare that to the

1736
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:52,639
Speaker 2: actual results, and usually it's not I mean, it's close ish,

1737
01:20:52,760 --> 01:20:54,800
Speaker 2: but it it can be pretty far off. And that's

1738
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:56,919
Speaker 2: just the nature of the beast, especially with the caucuses,

1739
01:20:56,920 --> 01:20:58,800
Speaker 2: where it's like, if you don't get enough votes here,

1740
01:20:58,880 --> 01:21:00,000
Speaker 2: then you can do a second choice.

1741
01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:02,720
Speaker 3: It's such an insane system and honestly, we should do

1742
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:08,280
Speaker 3: over with But that's a whole other conversation. Let's move

1743
01:21:08,320 --> 01:21:08,840
Speaker 3: on to Boeing.

1744
01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:11,200
Speaker 2: Wanted to give an update here because it's very very

1745
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:13,880
Speaker 2: important news. Let's put this up there on the screen.

1746
01:21:14,320 --> 01:21:16,320
Speaker 2: What you can see here this was reported by the

1747
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:20,919
Speaker 2: Air Current fantastic aviation related news outlet, and they're reporting

1748
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:25,679
Speaker 2: that United yesterday found loose bolts on plug doors during

1749
01:21:25,720 --> 01:21:29,519
Speaker 2: their seven thirty seven Max nine inspections. This news report

1750
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:32,720
Speaker 2: is very important because what it demonstrated is that this

1751
01:21:33,080 --> 01:21:36,320
Speaker 2: form of the aircraft where you have a door plug

1752
01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:39,639
Speaker 2: over what was traditionally going to be a door which

1753
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:44,599
Speaker 2: was installed by a separate Boeing supplier. Spirit Eurosystems appears

1754
01:21:44,640 --> 01:21:47,840
Speaker 2: to have problems across the fleet of the seven thirty

1755
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:51,240
Speaker 2: seven Max nine. This shows us that it's not necessarily

1756
01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:54,840
Speaker 2: a maintenance issue ascribed to Alaska Airlines. This is, you know,

1757
01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:58,000
Speaker 2: kind of both of the types of both the airlines

1758
01:21:58,040 --> 01:22:02,000
Speaker 2: which received the delivery of the vehicles and most importantly Crystal.

1759
01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:06,639
Speaker 2: The aircraft in question were all delivered between September November

1760
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:09,639
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two and September of twenty twenty three and

1761
01:22:10,040 --> 01:22:12,920
Speaker 2: would not have had their heavy maintenance check that would

1762
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:15,799
Speaker 2: occur after four thousand to six thousand hours of flights

1763
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:19,320
Speaker 2: aka two to three years, So this was after immediate

1764
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:23,200
Speaker 2: delivery relatively recently. It was found in at least five

1765
01:22:23,640 --> 01:22:27,760
Speaker 2: United aircraft. The more troubling news, though, is that afterwards

1766
01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:31,519
Speaker 2: what we saw is that Alaska Airlines announced late last

1767
01:22:31,560 --> 01:22:35,599
Speaker 2: night that they also had found loose bolts on door

1768
01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:39,000
Speaker 2: plugs in their seven thirty seven Max nines that they

1769
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:42,240
Speaker 2: have within the a fleete. This traces us back then

1770
01:22:42,680 --> 01:22:46,320
Speaker 2: to that question about Boeing and Spirit Aerosystems, and so

1771
01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:49,920
Speaker 2: this is actually something I did not know Boeing outsources

1772
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:54,440
Speaker 2: its fuselage to Spirit Aerosystems, they build the actual fuselages.

1773
01:22:54,680 --> 01:22:56,720
Speaker 2: So Alaska and United are the ones who have the

1774
01:22:56,760 --> 01:23:00,120
Speaker 2: specific type of configuration with the door plug. It is

1775
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:03,960
Speaker 2: installed by Spirit Aerosystems, but it is then delivered for Boeing.

1776
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:07,679
Speaker 2: So this does not take the responsibility away from Boeing.

1777
01:23:07,720 --> 01:23:09,840
Speaker 2: In fact, this basically heightens it, and it's going to

1778
01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:14,320
Speaker 2: have huge questions around their guidance to the overall fleet

1779
01:23:14,360 --> 01:23:16,799
Speaker 2: that remains and how the hell are you're not catching

1780
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:19,559
Speaker 2: this guys. We got multiple of these loose bolts. The

1781
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:22,559
Speaker 2: big question right now in the current Alaska Airline incident

1782
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:26,320
Speaker 2: is whether those door plug bolts Crystal were even installed,

1783
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:28,760
Speaker 2: whether they had fallen off, and that's part of the

1784
01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:31,800
Speaker 2: reason why you had the decompression, or whether they had

1785
01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:34,240
Speaker 2: loosened and then fell off mid flight, which is what

1786
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:36,840
Speaker 2: led to the incident. But the loose bolt it's yet

1787
01:23:36,960 --> 01:23:40,240
Speaker 2: is horrifying because I said this yesterday. If this happened

1788
01:23:40,240 --> 01:23:42,120
Speaker 2: in cruising altitude, there'd be a lot of dead people.

1789
01:23:42,200 --> 01:23:44,719
Speaker 2: In fact, the entire plane could have burst apart. Certainly,

1790
01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:48,680
Speaker 2: it's like called catastrophic decompression or something like that just

1791
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:51,160
Speaker 2: to show you though the economic impact of this, it's

1792
01:23:51,200 --> 01:23:54,160
Speaker 2: massive already for Boeing. Let's put this up there, Boeing stock.

1793
01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:57,479
Speaker 2: You know, the dow drop yesterday was almost entirely due

1794
01:23:57,479 --> 01:24:02,760
Speaker 2: to Boeing. There's stock down now by percent, spirit aerosystems down,

1795
01:24:02,920 --> 01:24:07,599
Speaker 2: actually even further. They're going to have huge questions for

1796
01:24:07,680 --> 01:24:12,840
Speaker 2: the NTSB overall should we find recommendation, I don't know, man, Honestly,

1797
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:14,880
Speaker 2: i'd probably buy Airbus stock. I don't actually don't even

1798
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:16,360
Speaker 2: know if you can, but because I think it's a

1799
01:24:16,439 --> 01:24:19,400
Speaker 2: European company. But the overall point just gets to my

1800
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:21,720
Speaker 2: monologue yesterday, and that's kind of why I wanted to

1801
01:24:21,760 --> 01:24:22,040
Speaker 2: do this.

1802
01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:24,280
Speaker 3: Is, guys, this is really bad.

1803
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:28,960
Speaker 2: This is a flagship American company once again failure of maintenance,

1804
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:32,880
Speaker 2: or sorry, once again failure of regulatory regime failure here

1805
01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:35,760
Speaker 2: of Boeing. We have here a company that's bought some

1806
01:24:35,840 --> 01:24:38,200
Speaker 2: sixty some billion dollars worth of its own stock since

1807
01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:41,439
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, and now we've delivered two, you know, at

1808
01:24:41,439 --> 01:24:44,160
Speaker 2: the very least two aircraft which have problems. Now we

1809
01:24:44,200 --> 01:24:46,439
Speaker 2: don't know one hundred percent of this lies with Boeing,

1810
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:48,559
Speaker 2: but it is very difficult not to look at this

1811
01:24:48,640 --> 01:24:52,040
Speaker 2: and say, manufacturing air happens sometimes and to a certain extent.

1812
01:24:52,080 --> 01:24:53,760
Speaker 3: I mean, if you and I outsourced.

1813
01:24:53,280 --> 01:24:55,880
Speaker 2: An element of our business for our overall products, you

1814
01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:58,360
Speaker 2: and I are still responsible for quality control.

1815
01:24:58,439 --> 01:24:58,639
Speaker 8: Now.

1816
01:24:58,680 --> 01:24:59,960
Speaker 2: I mean, we have people who work on our graph

1817
01:25:00,240 --> 01:25:02,320
Speaker 2: and all that, But like what would I say, like, oh,

1818
01:25:02,320 --> 01:25:04,240
Speaker 2: it's the graphic eyes. We never you know, like it's

1819
01:25:04,240 --> 01:25:07,040
Speaker 2: our responsibility. We put out a product and this is

1820
01:25:07,080 --> 01:25:11,559
Speaker 2: a much less life and situation that's happened over at Boeing.

1821
01:25:11,600 --> 01:25:13,479
Speaker 2: So I think it's pretty crazy, you know, to see

1822
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:14,160
Speaker 2: some of this news.

1823
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:16,280
Speaker 1: I also want to give credit to David Seroda and

1824
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:19,160
Speaker 1: his team over at Lever News. They have some relevant

1825
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:22,200
Speaker 1: They just broke a story that's very relevant to their headline.

1826
01:25:22,280 --> 01:25:24,479
Speaker 1: Is Boeing supplier that's Spirit what's it.

1827
01:25:24,479 --> 01:25:26,200
Speaker 3: Called Spirit Aero Spirit Aerosystems.

1828
01:25:26,280 --> 01:25:31,640
Speaker 1: Aerosystems ignored warnings of excessive amount of defects, according to

1829
01:25:32,040 --> 01:25:35,640
Speaker 1: former employees, weeks before Alaska Airlines terrifying tobacle, one of

1830
01:25:35,640 --> 01:25:40,520
Speaker 1: the aircraft's manufacturers was accused of systematically ignoring safety problems.

1831
01:25:41,360 --> 01:25:44,240
Speaker 1: And what they say is that they were also asked.

1832
01:25:44,240 --> 01:25:47,040
Speaker 1: They alleged that this employee alleged they were asked by

1833
01:25:47,040 --> 01:25:50,559
Speaker 1: corporate officials to falsify records to cover.

1834
01:25:50,520 --> 01:25:51,560
Speaker 4: Up these defects.

1835
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:54,840
Speaker 1: One of the employees at Spirit Aerosystems, which reportedly manufactured

1836
01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:57,519
Speaker 1: the door plug that blue mount off an Alaska Airlines flight,

1837
01:25:57,760 --> 01:26:00,839
Speaker 1: allegedly told company officials about an excess amount of defects.

1838
01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:03,599
Speaker 1: This is according to a federal complaint and corresponding internal

1839
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:06,439
Speaker 1: corporate documents that were reviewed by the lever. According to

1840
01:26:06,439 --> 01:26:08,559
Speaker 1: the court documents, the employee told a colleague that he

1841
01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:11,720
Speaker 1: believed it was just a matter of time until a

1842
01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:16,080
Speaker 1: major defect escaped to a customer. So is this relevant

1843
01:26:16,160 --> 01:26:19,479
Speaker 1: also to what unfolded here? Raises certainly a lot of questions.

1844
01:26:19,560 --> 01:26:22,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, massive questions. It's like, what's happening in terms

1845
01:26:22,320 --> 01:26:25,560
Speaker 2: of our oversight and just in general. Look, Spirit Aerosystems,

1846
01:26:25,760 --> 01:26:28,719
Speaker 2: and I went back yesterday and dug even deeper about,

1847
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:32,040
Speaker 2: you know, a Boeing company, how they've moved their headquarters,

1848
01:26:32,080 --> 01:26:34,840
Speaker 2: They've had mergers in the past. People who work for

1849
01:26:34,880 --> 01:26:37,439
Speaker 2: the company have been whistleblowing now for twenty some odd

1850
01:26:37,560 --> 01:26:41,439
Speaker 2: years about the financialization of this company, the moving away

1851
01:26:41,479 --> 01:26:45,120
Speaker 2: from engineering, and the promotion of these MBAs. It all

1852
01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:47,840
Speaker 2: goes back to everything I talked about yesterday about the

1853
01:26:47,920 --> 01:26:50,719
Speaker 2: takeover of financialization of stock price.

1854
01:26:50,800 --> 01:26:53,880
Speaker 3: The airplane is merely a function to boost the stock.

1855
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:57,120
Speaker 2: The stock is not a reflection right now of the airplane.

1856
01:26:57,160 --> 01:27:00,559
Speaker 2: And what's really embarrassing is that this is a duopera system.

1857
01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:03,840
Speaker 2: Our only other option is a European company called Airbus.

1858
01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:08,040
Speaker 2: I mean, this was and is a bedrock of American manufacturing.

1859
01:27:08,439 --> 01:27:12,200
Speaker 2: National defense base is critical to our national security, how

1860
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:15,200
Speaker 2: and to a certain extent, I mean, the public basically

1861
01:27:15,200 --> 01:27:17,240
Speaker 2: owns this company, all right. We bailed them out how

1862
01:27:17,800 --> 01:27:21,760
Speaker 2: times two thousand and eight because of their stock buybacks,

1863
01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:24,080
Speaker 2: and so we have no say over the way that

1864
01:27:24,080 --> 01:27:26,559
Speaker 2: they're conducting themselves, even though they take tens of billions

1865
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:29,640
Speaker 2: of dollars in bailouts, not to mention all these military,

1866
01:27:29,880 --> 01:27:32,320
Speaker 2: you know, contracts that we have with the company, So

1867
01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:35,320
Speaker 2: pretty devastating. Final thing that we can put up there

1868
01:27:35,560 --> 01:27:38,080
Speaker 2: on the screen here is from a leak by United

1869
01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:41,400
Speaker 2: pilots themselves, where this is an internal email where they

1870
01:27:41,479 --> 01:27:43,920
Speaker 2: tell them not to leak the email, but the pilots

1871
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:47,040
Speaker 2: immediately did and they're like, yeah, this new memo shows

1872
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:49,280
Speaker 2: us that we are hoping to return this aircraft to

1873
01:27:49,360 --> 01:27:52,880
Speaker 2: service quote in the next several days. But this is

1874
01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:55,759
Speaker 2: going to lead to public you know, loss of public confidence.

1875
01:27:56,000 --> 01:27:58,640
Speaker 2: United has, you know, a lot of these aircraft in

1876
01:27:58,680 --> 01:28:02,080
Speaker 2: its fleet. There's huge you know, commercial implications right now

1877
01:28:02,120 --> 01:28:05,280
Speaker 2: because hundreds of flights have been canceled, both by Alaska

1878
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:09,160
Speaker 2: and by United and overall, I just think it dramatically

1879
01:28:09,240 --> 01:28:13,360
Speaker 2: undermines confidence in Boeing and in its capabilities. Which if

1880
01:28:13,360 --> 01:28:15,400
Speaker 2: you're in the future and you're one of these airlines,

1881
01:28:15,439 --> 01:28:16,519
Speaker 2: which plane are you buying?

1882
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:18,400
Speaker 3: You know you have to This is a big question.

1883
01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:21,360
Speaker 2: So we'll see, you know, in terms of what the

1884
01:28:21,720 --> 01:28:24,280
Speaker 2: overall fallout is on this, I recommend following that news

1885
01:28:24,320 --> 01:28:27,559
Speaker 2: outlet the Aircarrent. They've been doing fantastic reporting. All signs

1886
01:28:27,640 --> 01:28:29,479
Speaker 2: right now point to some sort of manufacturing problem.

1887
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:31,479
Speaker 4: Would you get on one of these planes right now?

1888
01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:32,680
Speaker 3: Uh, well, it's not.

1889
01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:35,720
Speaker 2: We can't right now because they're all grounded. If the

1890
01:28:35,880 --> 01:28:38,160
Speaker 2: NTSB cleared it, yeah, I think I would. I've got

1891
01:28:38,280 --> 01:28:41,479
Speaker 2: enough the seven Max seven thirty seven Max nine I

1892
01:28:41,560 --> 01:28:44,360
Speaker 2: it look. I mean, if the NTSB says that the

1893
01:28:44,439 --> 01:28:46,720
Speaker 2: issue is the door plug and they tighten it up.

1894
01:28:46,800 --> 01:28:47,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1895
01:28:47,280 --> 01:28:50,000
Speaker 2: You know why I'm relatively confident is that a piece

1896
01:28:50,040 --> 01:28:51,360
Speaker 2: of that plane blew out.

1897
01:28:51,240 --> 01:28:52,920
Speaker 3: Of the sky and they still were able to land it.

1898
01:28:53,320 --> 01:28:54,760
Speaker 2: In fact, you could look at it the other way

1899
01:28:54,760 --> 01:28:56,320
Speaker 2: and say, wow, what a miracle of engineering.

1900
01:28:56,400 --> 01:28:56,559
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1901
01:28:56,600 --> 01:28:58,519
Speaker 1: But as we said, if they were a little further up,

1902
01:28:59,080 --> 01:29:00,840
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it would be very diverse.

1903
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:03,120
Speaker 3: Nine out of two hundred might have died. This pretty

1904
01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:03,679
Speaker 3: good offen.

1905
01:29:03,560 --> 01:29:07,880
Speaker 1: You like, I've gotten so much more risk averse as

1906
01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:10,680
Speaker 1: I've gotten older, Like something about how like after I

1907
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:13,840
Speaker 1: had kids that became so much more risk averse.

1908
01:29:13,880 --> 01:29:14,640
Speaker 4: I don't think so well.

1909
01:29:14,680 --> 01:29:16,439
Speaker 1: I'd be thinking about it the whole time I was

1910
01:29:16,479 --> 01:29:18,760
Speaker 1: on that plane, and just be even if everything was fine,

1911
01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:21,439
Speaker 1: which overwhelming chances are everything would be fine, I'd be

1912
01:29:21,479 --> 01:29:23,240
Speaker 1: so miserable during that flight that I couldn't take.

1913
01:29:23,280 --> 01:29:24,559
Speaker 2: You might be right, but as you know, I'm a

1914
01:29:24,560 --> 01:29:27,280
Speaker 2: credit card fanatic and chasing airline status, so there's no

1915
01:29:27,280 --> 01:29:28,800
Speaker 2: way i'd even be sitied in that row.

1916
01:29:28,880 --> 01:29:30,840
Speaker 3: Of course, I'd be at the bulkhead seat where I belong.

1917
01:29:31,600 --> 01:29:33,080
Speaker 3: Don't pay for him, to be clear, you.

1918
01:29:33,160 --> 01:29:35,160
Speaker 2: Never pay for You always use your points, and you

1919
01:29:35,240 --> 01:29:37,439
Speaker 2: use these things in order to get it. I should

1920
01:29:37,439 --> 01:29:39,040
Speaker 2: do a whole monologue at some point about how to

1921
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:41,960
Speaker 2: gain the system, but that's a different conversation. Turning over

1922
01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:45,400
Speaker 2: to the media, there's another casualty of Israel on the

1923
01:29:45,439 --> 01:29:49,960
Speaker 2: airwaves of American television. Mehdi Hassan, the MSNBC host whose

1924
01:29:49,960 --> 01:29:53,479
Speaker 2: show was canceled, has announced he is officially leaving it

1925
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:57,080
Speaker 2: appears by choice after MSNBC leadership took that decision.

1926
01:29:57,240 --> 01:29:58,280
Speaker 3: Here's what he had to say.

1927
01:29:58,360 --> 01:30:01,240
Speaker 14: It's been an absolute bloss during live show on MSNBC

1928
01:30:01,360 --> 01:30:03,760
Speaker 14: for the past three years, with an amazing team of

1929
01:30:03,800 --> 01:30:06,360
Speaker 14: producers behind me, and with all of you watching at home.

1930
01:30:06,400 --> 01:30:07,360
Speaker 14: It's been a privilege.

1931
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:08,320
Speaker 3: It's been a pleasure.

1932
01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:12,240
Speaker 14: But as we begin twenty twenty four, with an election coming,

1933
01:30:12,280 --> 01:30:15,719
Speaker 14: our war still ongoing, and too many Trump trials honesty

1934
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:18,240
Speaker 14: to even keep track of, and with this show going away,

1935
01:30:19,040 --> 01:30:20,800
Speaker 14: I've decided that it's time for me to look for

1936
01:30:20,840 --> 01:30:24,200
Speaker 14: a new challenge. Tonight is not just my final episode

1937
01:30:24,479 --> 01:30:28,840
Speaker 14: of the mayde Hussan Show, it's my last day with MSNBC. Yes,

1938
01:30:29,040 --> 01:30:33,120
Speaker 14: I've decided to leave. To be clear, I am so proud,

1939
01:30:33,400 --> 01:30:35,599
Speaker 14: so so proud of what we've achieved on this show

1940
01:30:35,640 --> 01:30:38,439
Speaker 14: on this network, and I can't thank you all enough

1941
01:30:38,439 --> 01:30:41,680
Speaker 14: for tuning in and for your support and for your feedback.

1942
01:30:42,280 --> 01:30:45,200
Speaker 14: But as I say, new Year, New plans.

1943
01:30:45,160 --> 01:30:47,639
Speaker 2: So my respect for medi has gone up significantly. There

1944
01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:49,280
Speaker 2: was no way, in my opinion, he could stay there

1945
01:30:49,479 --> 01:30:52,960
Speaker 2: untenable situation if he did, I mean, imagine being canceled

1946
01:30:52,960 --> 01:30:56,000
Speaker 2: for something he said, and specifically whenever it's such a

1947
01:30:56,000 --> 01:30:57,920
Speaker 2: contentious issue that clearly cares.

1948
01:30:57,680 --> 01:31:00,439
Speaker 3: About all Wow, and then they fired is that. Yeah,

1949
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:03,479
Speaker 3: it's outrageous, So good for him. He should have left.

1950
01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:05,160
Speaker 3: That's the right thing to do. You have none other

1951
01:31:05,240 --> 01:31:06,400
Speaker 3: choice in this business.

1952
01:31:06,040 --> 01:31:09,840
Speaker 1: And there's consequences for him to leaving. I mean, Mehdi

1953
01:31:09,960 --> 01:31:13,280
Speaker 1: will never work in mainstream I mean medio again. I

1954
01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:18,320
Speaker 1: assume children, absolutely, and financially and who knows what provisions

1955
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:20,200
Speaker 1: there are in his contract about how long it has

1956
01:31:20,240 --> 01:31:22,360
Speaker 1: to stay on the sidelines, and a non compete and

1957
01:31:22,439 --> 01:31:25,280
Speaker 1: a non disclosure and all of that crap. It's not

1958
01:31:25,400 --> 01:31:28,000
Speaker 1: like you can just you know, Unfortunately, these contracts are

1959
01:31:28,080 --> 01:31:30,200
Speaker 1: very binding on talent, probably in a way that's illegal

1960
01:31:30,240 --> 01:31:33,160
Speaker 1: and needs to be challenged. But in any case, you know,

1961
01:31:33,840 --> 01:31:36,880
Speaker 1: many people are pointing out I think rightly, so that

1962
01:31:37,040 --> 01:31:40,160
Speaker 1: this cancelation of his show, which ultimately forces his hand

1963
01:31:40,200 --> 01:31:43,120
Speaker 1: and forces him to leave, comes after he has been

1964
01:31:43,240 --> 01:31:47,120
Speaker 1: a very clear dissident voice on the network in favor

1965
01:31:47,160 --> 01:31:49,920
Speaker 1: of Palestinian rights. And what Meddi is kind of famous for,

1966
01:31:49,960 --> 01:31:52,519
Speaker 1: which we've shown you here a number of times, is

1967
01:31:52,680 --> 01:31:57,120
Speaker 1: he is genuinely a very effective interviewer. And you know,

1968
01:31:57,160 --> 01:31:59,960
Speaker 1: we press people like John Bolton on his show, for example.

1969
01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:02,840
Speaker 1: But there is this is a rumor, so I don't

1970
01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:05,240
Speaker 1: know if this is accurate, but there's a lot of

1971
01:32:05,280 --> 01:32:08,759
Speaker 1: suggestions that the decision to cancel his show came after

1972
01:32:08,880 --> 01:32:12,320
Speaker 1: a particularly contentious interview that we covered here on this

1973
01:32:12,400 --> 01:32:16,599
Speaker 1: show because it made significant news in which he pressed

1974
01:32:16,680 --> 01:32:21,040
Speaker 1: a Babi Natanya who spokesperson on air about what they were.

1975
01:32:21,040 --> 01:32:22,800
Speaker 4: Doing in Gaza. Let's take a listen to a little

1976
01:32:22,800 --> 01:32:23,200
Speaker 4: bit of that.

1977
01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:25,320
Speaker 15: It'll be good for the people of Gaza, who deserve

1978
01:32:25,400 --> 01:32:29,439
Speaker 15: better than this terrible authoritarian, extreme Kamas regime.

1979
01:32:30,280 --> 01:32:32,040
Speaker 14: The people of Gazho are still alive. As I said,

1980
01:32:32,080 --> 01:32:34,920
Speaker 14: more than eleven thousand people dead reported dead, four thousand children.

1981
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:38,800
Speaker 14: I just want to pull up on come numbers. You

1982
01:32:38,840 --> 01:32:40,680
Speaker 14: say Hamas's numbers, I should point out just put up

1983
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:43,080
Speaker 14: on the screen. In the last two major Gaza conflicts

1984
01:32:43,080 --> 01:32:46,559
Speaker 14: two thousand and nine and twenty fourteen, the Israeli militaries

1985
01:32:46,640 --> 01:32:50,200
Speaker 14: death dolls matched Hamas's Health Ministry death toll, SO and

1986
01:32:50,240 --> 01:32:52,599
Speaker 14: the UN human rights groups all agree that those numbers

1987
01:32:52,640 --> 01:32:53,200
Speaker 14: are credible.

1988
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:55,559
Speaker 15: They control all the images coming out of Gaza. Have

1989
01:32:55,640 --> 01:32:59,320
Speaker 15: you seen one picture of a single did Kamas terrorist?

1990
01:32:59,320 --> 01:32:59,960
Speaker 15: In the fighting game?

1991
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:00,600
Speaker 6: Girls are not?

1992
01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:06,600
Speaker 15: One? Is that commerce can control commerce can control the information.

1993
01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:07,880
Speaker 6: And you said you would be brief.

1994
01:33:08,160 --> 01:33:10,639
Speaker 14: I have haven't. You're right, but I have seen lots

1995
01:33:10,640 --> 01:33:12,439
Speaker 14: of children with my own lying eyes being pulled from

1996
01:33:12,439 --> 01:33:13,960
Speaker 14: the robber because the.

1997
01:33:13,560 --> 01:33:16,600
Speaker 15: Pictures Commers wants you to see exactly.

1998
01:33:16,479 --> 01:33:20,240
Speaker 14: Because the pictures they're also people. Your government is killed.

1999
01:33:20,280 --> 01:33:22,160
Speaker 14: You accept that right you've killed children? Or do you deny?

2000
01:33:22,240 --> 01:33:22,320
Speaker 3: No?

2001
01:33:22,360 --> 01:33:22,720
Speaker 15: I do not.

2002
01:33:23,240 --> 01:33:23,560
Speaker 12: I do not.

2003
01:33:23,840 --> 01:33:24,120
Speaker 5: I do not.

2004
01:33:24,320 --> 01:33:26,040
Speaker 15: First of all, you don't know how those people died.

2005
01:33:26,240 --> 01:33:26,920
Speaker 6: Those two wow.

2006
01:33:27,120 --> 01:33:28,439
Speaker 15: First of all, we don't want to see us do

2007
01:33:29,800 --> 01:33:32,320
Speaker 15: Why does that give you permission to accept Commas's numbers.

2008
01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:33,040
Speaker 6: I don't understand.

2009
01:33:33,040 --> 01:33:33,960
Speaker 14: I didn't ask about much.

2010
01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:36,280
Speaker 3: I said to you that you're minit, but you were.

2011
01:33:36,439 --> 01:33:41,480
Speaker 15: You were quoting to me before Commas numbers numbers.

2012
01:33:41,400 --> 01:33:43,400
Speaker 14: Because the entire you An and the human rights community

2013
01:33:43,439 --> 01:33:45,960
Speaker 14: and the American intelligence community on Friday said they trust

2014
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:48,360
Speaker 14: those numbers. But you're dodging my question mark.

2015
01:33:48,280 --> 01:33:51,639
Speaker 1: So you can see very heated. That's an extraordinary moment

2016
01:33:52,120 --> 01:33:55,800
Speaker 1: where I was crazy. Meddi says, you are denying that

2017
01:33:55,840 --> 01:33:58,280
Speaker 1: you killed these John Oh, I don't know how they died.

2018
01:33:58,400 --> 01:34:00,439
Speaker 4: I mean for that is that wild.

2019
01:34:00,439 --> 01:34:02,559
Speaker 1: There was another moment in that interview we covered as well,

2020
01:34:02,800 --> 01:34:05,520
Speaker 1: where he was pressing him on some of the misinformation

2021
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:08,920
Speaker 1: they got caught putting out. Specifically, remember this, what was

2022
01:34:09,000 --> 01:34:10,760
Speaker 1: just a calendar that was on the wall that they

2023
01:34:10,760 --> 01:34:13,120
Speaker 1: were like, oh, this is where Hamas is saying. You know,

2024
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:17,760
Speaker 1: they're logging in for their hostage watching duties. So he's

2025
01:34:17,840 --> 01:34:20,080
Speaker 1: very effective at this. It was shortly after this that

2026
01:34:20,120 --> 01:34:23,400
Speaker 1: a show gets canceled. We also know that the head

2027
01:34:23,439 --> 01:34:26,200
Speaker 1: of the ADL had gone on MSNBC and was going

2028
01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:29,599
Speaker 1: after Metti in particular, but all three of the Muslim

2029
01:34:29,680 --> 01:34:33,759
Speaker 1: anchors who have been critical of the Israeli response in Gaza.

2030
01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:37,200
Speaker 1: We also know that all three of those Muslim anchors

2031
01:34:37,200 --> 01:34:41,639
Speaker 1: were sidelined in different ways shortly after October seventh. So

2032
01:34:41,880 --> 01:34:46,320
Speaker 1: it surely seems like Mehdi is being punished for actually

2033
01:34:46,360 --> 01:34:50,439
Speaker 1: being good at his job and making powerful people uncomfortable.

2034
01:34:49,920 --> 01:34:51,000
Speaker 3: As people can go watch.

2035
01:34:51,040 --> 01:34:52,840
Speaker 2: I've got a lot of criticisms of the man, but

2036
01:34:52,920 --> 01:34:55,840
Speaker 2: I won't lay it here because I admire him for leaving.

2037
01:34:55,960 --> 01:34:58,200
Speaker 2: I think that's what you should do, especially when somebody

2038
01:34:58,560 --> 01:35:01,280
Speaker 2: is trying to censor you like this. I genuinely, even

2039
01:35:01,280 --> 01:35:03,040
Speaker 2: though I disagree with him, I wish him the best

2040
01:35:03,080 --> 01:35:05,920
Speaker 2: and I think that he'll probably do well in the

2041
01:35:05,920 --> 01:35:06,799
Speaker 2: independent space.

2042
01:35:06,920 --> 01:35:08,439
Speaker 3: And you know, we're happy to have him on the

2043
01:35:08,439 --> 01:35:09,360
Speaker 3: show anytime. Yeah.

2044
01:35:09,400 --> 01:35:12,040
Speaker 1: If you dissent too much, cause too much friction with

2045
01:35:12,080 --> 01:35:15,080
Speaker 1: powerful people, cable news wants nothing to do with you,

2046
01:35:15,280 --> 01:35:17,280
Speaker 1: and Meddi is just the latest casualty of that. I

2047
01:35:17,280 --> 01:35:19,280
Speaker 1: think that we can save, very confidently.

2048
01:35:18,960 --> 01:35:20,760
Speaker 2: Very sad. Okay, we got a great guest standing by

2049
01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:22,160
Speaker 2: Jeff Stein. Let's get to it.

2050
01:35:24,680 --> 01:35:27,240
Speaker 1: Excited to be joined today by Jeff Stein, who is

2051
01:35:27,280 --> 01:35:29,080
Speaker 1: a reporter for The Wash and pos and great friend

2052
01:35:29,080 --> 01:35:31,920
Speaker 1: of the show, but more importantly for today, host of

2053
01:35:31,960 --> 01:35:35,240
Speaker 1: a new podcast called American Carnage that is on radical

2054
01:35:35,280 --> 01:35:38,080
Speaker 1: abolitionist John Brown and which is fantastic. I really recommend

2055
01:35:38,120 --> 01:35:39,679
Speaker 1: it to people. Great to have you, Jeff.

2056
01:35:39,840 --> 01:35:41,439
Speaker 5: Thank you guys so much for having me on. It's

2057
01:35:41,479 --> 01:35:42,880
Speaker 5: exciting to join independent media.

2058
01:35:43,120 --> 01:35:43,320
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2059
01:35:43,320 --> 01:35:46,080
Speaker 3: Absolutely, welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the show.

2060
01:35:46,400 --> 01:35:48,240
Speaker 1: Before I ask the first question, let's just get a

2061
01:35:48,280 --> 01:35:50,400
Speaker 1: taste of what this podcast is all about.

2062
01:35:50,400 --> 01:35:51,960
Speaker 4: We have a bit of the trailer that you released.

2063
01:35:52,000 --> 01:35:52,679
Speaker 4: Let's take a listen.

2064
01:35:53,840 --> 01:36:00,320
Speaker 13: John Brown's body Laso moln and degree, John Brown's god

2065
01:36:00,320 --> 01:36:04,160
Speaker 13: Eliza Mouldron and them to be a soldier in the

2066
01:36:04,520 --> 01:36:08,400
Speaker 13: Army of the Lord. He's gone to be a soldier

2067
01:36:08,439 --> 01:36:10,479
Speaker 13: in the Army of the Lord.

2068
01:36:10,720 --> 01:36:25,600
Speaker 8: His soul is marching on goory glory, hellluyah, glory glory, hellolu.

2069
01:36:27,160 --> 01:36:30,200
Speaker 1: Explain to people what fascinates you about him and what

2070
01:36:30,200 --> 01:36:31,840
Speaker 1: were some of the questions you were trying to answer

2071
01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:32,759
Speaker 1: in this podcast series.

2072
01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:34,160
Speaker 6: Do you guys recognize that movie?

2073
01:36:34,439 --> 01:36:34,719
Speaker 4: No?

2074
01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:36,200
Speaker 3: No, I Actually it's.

2075
01:36:36,040 --> 01:36:41,639
Speaker 5: From like a terrible, atrocious, impossible to watch Reagan movie

2076
01:36:41,680 --> 01:36:45,920
Speaker 5: from the forties, glorifying the post slavery side in the war.

2077
01:36:46,080 --> 01:36:47,800
Speaker 3: Oh God, what you call?

2078
01:36:51,400 --> 01:36:54,639
Speaker 5: And yet despite the attempt to make John Brown look

2079
01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:59,320
Speaker 5: crazy in the film, he looks awesome. It's really interesting

2080
01:36:59,320 --> 01:37:04,759
Speaker 5: and really cool, really fascinating. And I think the reason

2081
01:37:04,760 --> 01:37:06,640
Speaker 5: we got into this, and the reason I got into this,

2082
01:37:06,800 --> 01:37:11,080
Speaker 5: was because I don't think that political.

2083
01:37:10,680 --> 01:37:11,479
Speaker 6: Science is a thing.

2084
01:37:12,840 --> 01:37:14,920
Speaker 3: I kind of agree with you why people think.

2085
01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:17,439
Speaker 5: That political science is almost like taking an approach like

2086
01:37:17,520 --> 01:37:21,360
Speaker 5: chemistry or physics to how political change happens, our political

2087
01:37:21,360 --> 01:37:25,800
Speaker 5: processes unfolds. And the reality is that sounds like you

2088
01:37:25,880 --> 01:37:29,639
Speaker 5: might agree that from my perspective, at least, historical events

2089
01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:33,840
Speaker 5: involve so many variables and so many inputs, and it

2090
01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:36,519
Speaker 5: is impossible to try to get it down to the

2091
01:37:36,560 --> 01:37:39,000
Speaker 5: beaker and the lab equipment that you put in a

2092
01:37:39,040 --> 01:37:42,800
Speaker 5: chem lab, right, And so the historians want to look

2093
01:37:42,840 --> 01:37:45,679
Speaker 5: at what happened in the past and try to draw

2094
01:37:45,760 --> 01:37:48,880
Speaker 5: links rather than try to say, what are the elements

2095
01:37:48,920 --> 01:37:52,400
Speaker 5: that create a historical moment or create a moment. And

2096
01:37:53,000 --> 01:37:55,120
Speaker 5: with that in mind, I think the reason John Brown

2097
01:37:55,200 --> 01:37:57,639
Speaker 5: is so interesting is because he forces us to reckon

2098
01:37:57,680 --> 01:38:00,320
Speaker 5: with what is actually it.

2099
01:38:00,320 --> 01:38:02,280
Speaker 6: Causes change in this country.

2100
01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:05,440
Speaker 5: And I actually think you guys understand this and intuitively

2101
01:38:05,760 --> 01:38:08,680
Speaker 5: at a real level where we have this conception, right,

2102
01:38:08,720 --> 01:38:11,400
Speaker 5: this idea that that is very much like the official

2103
01:38:11,479 --> 01:38:15,559
Speaker 5: Washington world where I operate, where people are presented every

2104
01:38:15,600 --> 01:38:18,720
Speaker 5: four years like a list of ideas, and then their

2105
01:38:18,760 --> 01:38:22,240
Speaker 5: agency consists of going to the ballot box and being

2106
01:38:22,280 --> 01:38:23,800
Speaker 5: like I like this or I like that.

2107
01:38:24,240 --> 01:38:25,759
Speaker 6: You would look at a restaurant, you know, it's.

2108
01:38:25,600 --> 01:38:28,599
Speaker 5: Like, oh, here's the menu. But what that alides, right

2109
01:38:28,720 --> 01:38:31,160
Speaker 5: is like what is going on on the menu? How

2110
01:38:31,160 --> 01:38:34,840
Speaker 5: do we decide like what the political process is giving

2111
01:38:34,840 --> 01:38:38,200
Speaker 5: people the choice between? And when you look at John

2112
01:38:38,200 --> 01:38:41,200
Speaker 5: Brown's story, it's this question of how did this issue

2113
01:38:41,200 --> 01:38:43,679
Speaker 5: that when John Brown was first emerging on the scene

2114
01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:46,639
Speaker 5: was not even really a German people's heads, I mean

2115
01:38:46,680 --> 01:38:50,960
Speaker 5: abolitionism much less, you know, the racial egalitarianism that John

2116
01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:55,120
Speaker 5: Brown believed in was so unbelievably fringe the population, more

2117
01:38:55,160 --> 01:38:56,800
Speaker 5: fringe than than the people you guys have.

2118
01:38:56,800 --> 01:39:04,120
Speaker 16: On Yeah, and so what is the process, the historical

2119
01:39:04,160 --> 01:39:07,680
Speaker 16: process by which someone tries to move that, to shift that?

2120
01:39:08,640 --> 01:39:11,720
Speaker 5: And that's what I found so rivening and so captivating.

2121
01:39:11,760 --> 01:39:16,200
Speaker 5: How do you w beata boys his biophy of Brown?

2122
01:39:16,240 --> 01:39:19,000
Speaker 5: It's interesting because some of the historians today, I think

2123
01:39:19,000 --> 01:39:21,400
Speaker 5: are much more accurate than like the historians from fifty

2124
01:39:21,400 --> 01:39:22,360
Speaker 5: to sixty one hundred.

2125
01:39:22,160 --> 01:39:25,240
Speaker 6: Years ago, as the boy is, but they don't right in.

2126
01:39:25,160 --> 01:39:27,160
Speaker 5: A way that touches the soul the way that someone

2127
01:39:27,200 --> 01:39:30,200
Speaker 5: like du Boys or James Baldwin can. And what du

2128
01:39:30,200 --> 01:39:33,439
Speaker 5: Bois says is that what Brown reveals is that historical

2129
01:39:33,479 --> 01:39:38,840
Speaker 5: processes really shift by people who are able to activate

2130
01:39:39,400 --> 01:39:43,960
Speaker 5: the part of our consciences that are not explicable parts of.

2131
01:39:43,880 --> 01:39:44,879
Speaker 6: The political process.

2132
01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:48,920
Speaker 5: So things that we understand intuitively are immoral or wrong

2133
01:39:49,360 --> 01:39:52,920
Speaker 5: somewhere deep in our core. It takes someone in the public,

2134
01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:56,240
Speaker 5: maybe a media, maybe an activist, maybe a radical oub

2135
01:39:56,240 --> 01:40:00,200
Speaker 5: listionnist who starts invading federal armories. It takes someone to

2136
01:40:00,360 --> 01:40:04,360
Speaker 5: activate our latent sense of morality and justice, and that

2137
01:40:04,720 --> 01:40:07,639
Speaker 5: the idea that political change is instead driven by people

2138
01:40:07,680 --> 01:40:10,800
Speaker 5: at the top giving options that then people vote on

2139
01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:14,479
Speaker 5: is missing. How important that activation process?

2140
01:40:15,040 --> 01:40:18,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting because Brown was,

2141
01:40:18,800 --> 01:40:21,000
Speaker 2: you could see there's many ways, right, There's like the

2142
01:40:21,000 --> 01:40:24,120
Speaker 2: great Man theories, there's a structureless theory, There's like many others.

2143
01:40:24,160 --> 01:40:25,960
Speaker 3: I basically subscribed to all three, which why I also

2144
01:40:26,000 --> 01:40:27,120
Speaker 3: don't believe in political science.

2145
01:40:27,600 --> 01:40:29,320
Speaker 2: But if you're to go and you're going to look

2146
01:40:29,320 --> 01:40:31,679
Speaker 2: at it, we could see, like why Brown right, because

2147
01:40:31,720 --> 01:40:34,840
Speaker 2: Nat Turner's rebellion is what twenty years before I getshed

2148
01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:36,640
Speaker 2: completely right, and actually.

2149
01:40:36,320 --> 01:40:38,480
Speaker 3: The Northern public is like, oh my god, this is horrifying.

2150
01:40:38,840 --> 01:40:42,599
Speaker 2: Why is it that Brown himself like right when it happened,

2151
01:40:42,840 --> 01:40:45,320
Speaker 2: it was like the perfect moment to awaken exactly like

2152
01:40:45,360 --> 01:40:49,720
Speaker 2: you said, and to also draw the right contrasts. Right,

2153
01:40:49,760 --> 01:40:52,360
Speaker 2: So like for Brown and there's everybody, it's so crazy

2154
01:40:52,479 --> 01:40:54,320
Speaker 2: when you look at his story, it's like Robert E.

2155
01:40:54,400 --> 01:40:57,200
Speaker 2: Lee is involved in the John Brown. You know, you're like,

2156
01:40:57,240 --> 01:40:59,719
Speaker 2: oh my god, like what a precursor. And then John

2157
01:40:59,720 --> 01:41:01,719
Speaker 2: got Booth his own exactly got John's book here.

2158
01:41:01,720 --> 01:41:02,679
Speaker 3: So how is this all?

2159
01:41:02,720 --> 01:41:05,320
Speaker 2: Like it's like a story, it's like a movie, and

2160
01:41:05,400 --> 01:41:07,720
Speaker 2: yet it was real life. So what did you find

2161
01:41:07,760 --> 01:41:10,160
Speaker 2: when you were teasing that out as to why his

2162
01:41:10,640 --> 01:41:12,920
Speaker 2: spoke to people at that moment when, like I said,

2163
01:41:13,080 --> 01:41:15,160
Speaker 2: Turner and all these other folks, it didn't work out.

2164
01:41:15,200 --> 01:41:17,200
Speaker 1: And give people a little TLDR if we don't if

2165
01:41:17,240 --> 01:41:19,360
Speaker 1: we have some non John Brown Buffson audience.

2166
01:41:19,479 --> 01:41:23,360
Speaker 5: So in on October sixteenth, eighteen fifty nine, John Brown,

2167
01:41:23,400 --> 01:41:26,720
Speaker 5: in about twenty men will invade a federal armory at

2168
01:41:26,720 --> 01:41:29,920
Speaker 5: Harper's Ferry, Virginia. The idea of this raid is that

2169
01:41:29,960 --> 01:41:31,720
Speaker 5: Brown is going to. I mean, as you said, it

2170
01:41:31,760 --> 01:41:34,160
Speaker 5: is cinematic, ritterical, and which is why it makes such

2171
01:41:34,160 --> 01:41:35,280
Speaker 5: a good story for a podcast.

2172
01:41:35,800 --> 01:41:39,240
Speaker 6: Brown and his little gorilla army, he wanted more men, but.

2173
01:41:39,160 --> 01:41:42,839
Speaker 5: He really he just decided that the place that they

2174
01:41:42,880 --> 01:41:45,160
Speaker 5: were training was at risk of being exposed. So he

2175
01:41:45,200 --> 01:41:47,720
Speaker 5: and about twenty men will invade this federal armory at

2176
01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:51,560
Speaker 5: Harper's Ferry, and they will go around the nearby plantations,

2177
01:41:51,600 --> 01:41:55,240
Speaker 5: liberating slaves, including the slaves owned by the great grand

2178
01:41:55,240 --> 01:42:00,000
Speaker 5: nephew of George Washington. They take these two amazing airlooms,

2179
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:04,320
Speaker 5: a pistol that the Marquisa Lafayette had given George Washington,

2180
01:42:04,360 --> 01:42:07,880
Speaker 5: and a sword that Frederick the Great had given George Washington,

2181
01:42:07,920 --> 01:42:10,639
Speaker 5: and they take those and they free George Washington's descendant slaves,

2182
01:42:10,960 --> 01:42:12,680
Speaker 5: and then they come back to Harper's Ferry and they've

2183
01:42:12,720 --> 01:42:16,400
Speaker 5: taken this town. And that is when this moment that

2184
01:42:16,439 --> 01:42:18,960
Speaker 5: I've been really focused on recently is like why didn't

2185
01:42:19,000 --> 01:42:19,720
Speaker 5: John Brown leave?

2186
01:42:19,760 --> 01:42:21,840
Speaker 6: Because the whole conception of this rate is.

2187
01:42:21,840 --> 01:42:24,360
Speaker 5: That they're going to take these freed slaves, are going

2188
01:42:24,400 --> 01:42:27,200
Speaker 5: to ride off into the Appalachian Mountains and from there

2189
01:42:27,240 --> 01:42:30,160
Speaker 5: they will launch little raids on southern plantations, free more slaves,

2190
01:42:30,200 --> 01:42:33,200
Speaker 5: and eventually build this massive black colony that will destabilize

2191
01:42:33,200 --> 01:42:34,160
Speaker 5: the slave system, which is.

2192
01:42:34,840 --> 01:42:38,920
Speaker 6: Ambitious, certainly, but not super crazy. I don't think it hasn't.

2193
01:42:39,000 --> 01:42:41,080
Speaker 4: It hasn't. Some it has logic, It hasn't.

2194
01:42:41,400 --> 01:42:43,519
Speaker 3: I mean when it has more logic than staying in

2195
01:42:43,560 --> 01:42:45,800
Speaker 3: the armory, getting your sons killed and then get it

2196
01:42:45,880 --> 01:42:46,280
Speaker 3: on trial.

2197
01:42:46,400 --> 01:42:47,479
Speaker 6: But what are you doing? John?

2198
01:42:49,600 --> 01:42:54,000
Speaker 5: But what really happens, you know, in Brown stays, then

2199
01:42:54,240 --> 01:42:57,360
Speaker 5: the militias of Harper's Ferry, the white militias come, and

2200
01:42:57,400 --> 01:43:00,920
Speaker 5: then the federal government sends the US Marines, as you

2201
01:43:00,960 --> 01:43:03,560
Speaker 5: were saying under Roberty Lee later the leader of the Confederacy,

2202
01:43:03,720 --> 01:43:08,000
Speaker 5: to crush John Brown. And what happens in the immediate

2203
01:43:08,040 --> 01:43:10,360
Speaker 5: aftermath is kind of similar to what you see after

2204
01:43:10,439 --> 01:43:13,559
Speaker 5: Nat Turner, where people are outraged and they want this

2205
01:43:13,600 --> 01:43:16,240
Speaker 5: guy killed, and even the Northern abolitionists who were his

2206
01:43:16,240 --> 01:43:18,559
Speaker 5: allies say, oh, maybe there's legal jeopardy here. I want

2207
01:43:18,560 --> 01:43:19,800
Speaker 5: nothing to do with this. And so you have this

2208
01:43:19,960 --> 01:43:23,400
Speaker 5: massive immediate reaction that this guy is bad, and then

2209
01:43:24,800 --> 01:43:27,840
Speaker 5: partly because he's white, right, unlike Nat Turner. Yes, but

2210
01:43:27,880 --> 01:43:31,519
Speaker 5: also partly because he's able to articulate himself in.

2211
01:43:31,520 --> 01:43:32,800
Speaker 6: A way not Turner. Never is.

2212
01:43:33,240 --> 01:43:36,320
Speaker 5: John Brown in the aftermath of the raid is going

2213
01:43:36,360 --> 01:43:38,680
Speaker 5: to be put on trial, which again not Turner does

2214
01:43:38,680 --> 01:43:41,200
Speaker 5: not have this luxury of having a public audience where

2215
01:43:41,200 --> 01:43:46,280
Speaker 5: he can articulate and sound clear and level headed and appeal.

2216
01:43:46,360 --> 01:43:48,599
Speaker 5: And then he becomes the smart right because he's facing

2217
01:43:48,600 --> 01:43:52,799
Speaker 5: his death. He's just watched his sons be brutally nimed

2218
01:43:52,880 --> 01:43:56,400
Speaker 5: and die in his arms. And this the tragedy of

2219
01:43:56,400 --> 01:43:58,280
Speaker 5: the story and the fact that I think we can

2220
01:43:58,320 --> 01:43:59,519
Speaker 5: get into this and I have so much to say

2221
01:43:59,520 --> 01:44:02,200
Speaker 5: about John as you can sell, but he really was

2222
01:44:02,280 --> 01:44:05,559
Speaker 5: not that violent at Harper's Ferry. We can debate his

2223
01:44:05,600 --> 01:44:08,599
Speaker 5: actions in Kansas, which are more morally ambivalent, I think,

2224
01:44:08,640 --> 01:44:11,599
Speaker 5: But in Harper's Ferry, I think part of the reason

2225
01:44:11,600 --> 01:44:15,160
Speaker 5: that he gets trapped there is because he is concerned

2226
01:44:15,160 --> 01:44:16,800
Speaker 5: for the well being of his white hostages, and he

2227
01:44:16,840 --> 01:44:18,799
Speaker 5: treats them well. And this becomes part of the historical

2228
01:44:18,800 --> 01:44:21,280
Speaker 5: record after the fact. A handful of people do die

2229
01:44:21,280 --> 01:44:24,120
Speaker 5: at Harper's Ferry. But he's really in a defensive crouch.

2230
01:44:24,160 --> 01:44:26,599
Speaker 5: I mean, his attitude is like, let me liberate as

2231
01:44:26,600 --> 01:44:29,000
Speaker 5: many slaves and escape, and they're not going around. I mean,

2232
01:44:29,160 --> 01:44:30,920
Speaker 5: I think a lot of people have this misapprehension of

2233
01:44:30,920 --> 01:44:32,800
Speaker 5: Brown as this you know, crazy white boy who went

2234
01:44:32,840 --> 01:44:35,720
Speaker 5: around just slaughtering slaveholders is much more. He was not

2235
01:44:35,800 --> 01:44:38,840
Speaker 5: intending on killing a lot of plantation owners in the South.

2236
01:44:38,840 --> 01:44:42,200
Speaker 5: And so that combined with the fact that Virginia, you know,

2237
01:44:42,400 --> 01:44:46,960
Speaker 5: while Brown still is like suffering from wounds to his head,

2238
01:44:47,000 --> 01:44:50,559
Speaker 5: he has this massive kidney injury. There's a scene where

2239
01:44:50,600 --> 01:44:54,200
Speaker 5: he's in court because the slaveholders are so insane that

2240
01:44:54,240 --> 01:44:56,920
Speaker 5: they insist on speeding up this trial even though he

2241
01:44:57,000 --> 01:44:59,880
Speaker 5: is unable to stand up. So they wheeld this cot

2242
01:45:00,200 --> 01:45:02,280
Speaker 5: into the courtroom and he has to pull the blanket

2243
01:45:02,360 --> 01:45:06,559
Speaker 5: over his face. So his stoicism in that moment and

2244
01:45:06,640 --> 01:45:10,200
Speaker 5: all the gallows where even the Confederates will recognize that

2245
01:45:10,280 --> 01:45:12,639
Speaker 5: he was incredibly brave in the face of death, that

2246
01:45:12,760 --> 01:45:15,960
Speaker 5: sort of like sense of valor, that sort of machismo,

2247
01:45:16,600 --> 01:45:19,120
Speaker 5: helps turn his image, and I think that is a

2248
01:45:19,160 --> 01:45:21,880
Speaker 5: big part of the reason that the nation was ready

2249
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:23,639
Speaker 5: to receive his message in the way that they weren't pronound.

2250
01:45:24,000 --> 01:45:25,080
Speaker 3: I absolutely think you're right.

2251
01:45:25,160 --> 01:45:28,160
Speaker 1: And then what do you see as the reverberating impacts

2252
01:45:28,400 --> 01:45:31,320
Speaker 1: of that. I mean almost what you're describing is like

2253
01:45:31,840 --> 01:45:36,240
Speaker 1: through what came to be seen as his valor, selflessness,

2254
01:45:36,240 --> 01:45:38,479
Speaker 1: his willing to die, his willing to sacrifice his own

2255
01:45:38,560 --> 01:45:41,160
Speaker 1: kids on behalf of a cause that he saw as

2256
01:45:41,200 --> 01:45:44,720
Speaker 1: being so righteous that it really caused people to sort

2257
01:45:44,760 --> 01:45:47,800
Speaker 1: of awaken in them their own sense of injustice and

2258
01:45:47,880 --> 01:45:50,519
Speaker 1: change the opinions. So how does that reverberate throughout history?

2259
01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:53,160
Speaker 1: How does that help create the conditions that lead to

2260
01:45:53,200 --> 01:45:53,760
Speaker 1: the Civil War.

2261
01:45:55,479 --> 01:45:56,320
Speaker 6: It's a great question.

2262
01:45:56,720 --> 01:46:01,080
Speaker 5: I mean, John Brown, there's this fascinating, like self fulfilling

2263
01:46:01,160 --> 01:46:04,120
Speaker 5: dynamic that begins to happen in the South where the

2264
01:46:04,160 --> 01:46:08,080
Speaker 5: South is really determined. After even though John Brown is

2265
01:46:08,160 --> 01:46:10,719
Speaker 5: so exceptional as an abolitionist, he and his twenty guys

2266
01:46:10,720 --> 01:46:14,040
Speaker 5: are so unlike all the other abolitionists who you know,

2267
01:46:14,040 --> 01:46:16,439
Speaker 5: Willimore Garrison is the other most prominent abolition at this point,

2268
01:46:16,439 --> 01:46:18,479
Speaker 5: and he is an adamant pacifist and he looks down

2269
01:46:18,479 --> 01:46:20,240
Speaker 5: at what John Brown is doing things that's all rubbish.

2270
01:46:20,479 --> 01:46:22,120
Speaker 6: And so John Brown is really exceptional.

2271
01:46:22,160 --> 01:46:25,960
Speaker 5: But because the South wants to make John Brown out

2272
01:46:26,040 --> 01:46:32,080
Speaker 5: to be like the prototypical abolitionist a Northerner. They begin

2273
01:46:32,240 --> 01:46:37,080
Speaker 5: accusing everyone else in the North of being an abolitionist

2274
01:46:37,600 --> 01:46:41,599
Speaker 5: like John Brown. And so there's this weird effect that

2275
01:46:41,680 --> 01:46:44,720
Speaker 5: begins to happen where because the South starts saying these

2276
01:46:44,720 --> 01:46:48,640
Speaker 5: insane things about all the northern abolitionists, equating them to

2277
01:46:48,720 --> 01:46:53,840
Speaker 5: John Brown. Eventually the northern abolitionists are like, well, maybe

2278
01:46:53,880 --> 01:46:55,960
Speaker 5: we do believe in him, because their response is so

2279
01:46:56,000 --> 01:46:57,479
Speaker 5: disproportionate and so insane.

2280
01:46:58,320 --> 01:47:00,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's actually so just you know, pick

2281
01:47:00,640 --> 01:47:02,839
Speaker 2: up on that. Really, what happened is that the fire eaters,

2282
01:47:02,840 --> 01:47:04,800
Speaker 2: which are the people who wanted to get out of

2283
01:47:04,880 --> 01:47:07,880
Speaker 2: the Union and to have secession, they saw it as

2284
01:47:07,920 --> 01:47:10,160
Speaker 2: a validation of their worst fears, and they're like, well,

2285
01:47:10,240 --> 01:47:11,920
Speaker 2: they're gonna do it to us anyways, we may as

2286
01:47:11,920 --> 01:47:14,000
Speaker 2: well arm up and we may as well succeed. And

2287
01:47:14,000 --> 01:47:15,920
Speaker 2: then people were well, hold on a second, you can't

2288
01:47:15,920 --> 01:47:18,120
Speaker 2: actually succede here. It's like, and if you're gonna you're

2289
01:47:18,160 --> 01:47:20,320
Speaker 2: not going to take all his federal property and all

2290
01:47:20,360 --> 01:47:24,160
Speaker 2: that with you. And really it increased I think militarism

2291
01:47:24,560 --> 01:47:27,400
Speaker 2: in the South, which, in turn, like you said, showed

2292
01:47:27,520 --> 01:47:29,439
Speaker 2: the North. They were like, okay, we genuinely have no

2293
01:47:29,520 --> 01:47:29,960
Speaker 2: other option.

2294
01:47:30,000 --> 01:47:34,400
Speaker 5: Butmia became a self fulfilling prophet exactly because when the

2295
01:47:34,439 --> 01:47:37,160
Speaker 5: South was insistent on seeing everyone in the North as

2296
01:47:37,240 --> 01:47:40,439
Speaker 5: John Brown, they started doing things in.

2297
01:47:40,400 --> 01:47:43,000
Speaker 6: Response to that, right that actually turned people.

2298
01:47:42,840 --> 01:47:46,439
Speaker 5: In the North into militants, right because the South started

2299
01:47:46,520 --> 01:47:49,160
Speaker 5: arming themselves literally. Yeah, And I got into like a

2300
01:47:49,200 --> 01:47:52,160
Speaker 5: Twitter argument with someone who was like, it was super

2301
01:47:52,280 --> 01:47:53,920
Speaker 5: rational for the South to secede.

2302
01:47:54,479 --> 01:47:57,120
Speaker 6: I mean maybe maybe because like.

2303
01:47:57,200 --> 01:48:00,200
Speaker 5: At that point, when Lincoln won in eighteen sixty, you

2304
01:48:00,280 --> 01:48:03,479
Speaker 5: see like the end of the expansion of slavery, and

2305
01:48:03,560 --> 01:48:05,800
Speaker 5: so like maybe the political balance of power is going

2306
01:48:05,880 --> 01:48:09,439
Speaker 5: to shift in a way that that is, you know,

2307
01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:12,479
Speaker 5: spells the death knell of the South, and therefore they

2308
01:48:12,479 --> 01:48:14,640
Speaker 5: should take their shot and try to get England on

2309
01:48:14,640 --> 01:48:15,320
Speaker 5: their side of the war.

2310
01:48:15,439 --> 01:48:16,920
Speaker 6: And maybe that's like their best gamble.

2311
01:48:16,960 --> 01:48:19,639
Speaker 5: But to me, like you look at the stated intention

2312
01:48:19,760 --> 01:48:23,320
Speaker 5: of Lincoln, and this is why, I mean, I'm curious

2313
01:48:23,360 --> 01:48:25,640
Speaker 5: that you guys think about this because to me, like

2314
01:48:26,240 --> 01:48:27,679
Speaker 5: the idea the answer to the question who.

2315
01:48:27,600 --> 01:48:28,160
Speaker 6: Freed the slaves?

2316
01:48:28,200 --> 01:48:30,000
Speaker 5: Right, I mean, like you have the Lincoln monument up there,

2317
01:48:30,040 --> 01:48:32,519
Speaker 5: but it's like it's Lincoln, that's what people say.

2318
01:48:33,080 --> 01:48:33,960
Speaker 6: Lincoln didn't want.

2319
01:48:34,240 --> 01:48:36,439
Speaker 5: Lincoln was not talking about freeing the slaves until events

2320
01:48:36,439 --> 01:48:38,160
Speaker 5: forced his hands. Like, you know who really wanted to

2321
01:48:38,240 --> 01:48:41,040
Speaker 5: free the slaves with John Brown and the idea?

2322
01:48:41,120 --> 01:48:43,240
Speaker 1: So are you telling me Nikki Haley lied to me

2323
01:48:43,280 --> 01:48:45,040
Speaker 1: and the Civil War was actually about slavery?

2324
01:48:45,320 --> 01:48:46,080
Speaker 4: Is that what you're saying?

2325
01:48:46,200 --> 01:48:49,879
Speaker 5: Anytime wants to come on American Carnage Big, She's honestly

2326
01:48:49,960 --> 01:48:51,759
Speaker 5: glad to have her discuss John.

2327
01:48:51,600 --> 01:48:54,639
Speaker 1: Brown, Jeff, how do you grapple with this moral question

2328
01:48:54,720 --> 01:48:57,840
Speaker 1: that you present at the beginning of your podcast? So basically, like,

2329
01:48:58,520 --> 01:49:00,920
Speaker 1: how do you think about someone one who some people

2330
01:49:00,960 --> 01:49:04,120
Speaker 1: would define as a domestic terrorist, John Brown, especially, like

2331
01:49:04,160 --> 01:49:06,280
Speaker 1: you said, for the actions that helped spark this Bleeding

2332
01:49:06,360 --> 01:49:08,599
Speaker 1: Kansas period, which was incredibly you know.

2333
01:49:08,560 --> 01:49:09,360
Speaker 4: Bloody and violent.

2334
01:49:10,640 --> 01:49:14,160
Speaker 1: How do you grapple with someone who is like violent

2335
01:49:14,520 --> 01:49:17,400
Speaker 1: but on behalf of a clearly just cause.

2336
01:49:17,800 --> 01:49:19,760
Speaker 5: I think it's a difficult question. I mean, we get

2337
01:49:19,760 --> 01:49:22,479
Speaker 5: into like all the competing historical debates in the podcast

2338
01:49:22,560 --> 01:49:24,880
Speaker 5: just very quickly to have time to explain, Yeah, what

2339
01:49:24,920 --> 01:49:28,519
Speaker 5: happened in Kansas. Yeah, so the fate of the expansion

2340
01:49:28,520 --> 01:49:30,000
Speaker 5: of slavery will fall to Kansas.

2341
01:49:30,040 --> 01:49:30,920
Speaker 6: I know this is kind of boring.

2342
01:49:30,920 --> 01:49:33,840
Speaker 5: But in eighteen fifty four, Congress says they passed the

2343
01:49:33,880 --> 01:49:36,360
Speaker 5: Kansas Nebraska Act, which gives the rights of the people

2344
01:49:36,360 --> 01:49:39,559
Speaker 5: in the territory to the side view of election whether

2345
01:49:39,840 --> 01:49:41,960
Speaker 5: that territory enters the Union as a free or slave state.

2346
01:49:41,960 --> 01:49:44,280
Speaker 5: And that's really important because it will determine the balance

2347
01:49:44,280 --> 01:49:48,160
Speaker 5: of power within Congress. And at this point, the pro

2348
01:49:48,280 --> 01:49:51,599
Speaker 5: slavery border ruffians from Missouri interfere with the elections, They

2349
01:49:51,640 --> 01:49:56,800
Speaker 5: steal the elections, they completely pollute democracy, and they start

2350
01:49:56,880 --> 01:49:59,559
Speaker 5: going around killing the anti slavery side. And so that's

2351
01:49:59,640 --> 01:50:01,920
Speaker 5: kind of the stakes of what happens when John Brown

2352
01:50:02,000 --> 01:50:03,280
Speaker 5: is fed up by all this and he gets a

2353
01:50:03,320 --> 01:50:07,960
Speaker 5: credible threat that some pro slavery guys from Missouri might

2354
01:50:08,120 --> 01:50:10,240
Speaker 5: go around and annihilate this is the term they use

2355
01:50:10,680 --> 01:50:14,040
Speaker 5: him and his sons. And at that point Brown decides

2356
01:50:14,520 --> 01:50:18,559
Speaker 5: to stop this pacifistic campaign to finally take retribution. He

2357
01:50:18,640 --> 01:50:21,599
Speaker 5: and his men will execute five men in the middle

2358
01:50:21,600 --> 01:50:24,439
Speaker 5: of the night with these swords, gashing their body and

2359
01:50:24,439 --> 01:50:24,760
Speaker 5: cutting it.

2360
01:50:24,840 --> 01:50:25,840
Speaker 6: It's all grizzly and bloody.

2361
01:50:25,840 --> 01:50:28,439
Speaker 5: And if there's any Dan Carlin hardcore history fans out here,

2362
01:50:28,439 --> 01:50:31,080
Speaker 5: I promise he will not be disappointed in our podcast,

2363
01:50:31,360 --> 01:50:34,880
Speaker 5: but the question becomes right, like, was the killing of

2364
01:50:34,920 --> 01:50:38,280
Speaker 5: five people who were not slaveholders, not plantation owners, not

2365
01:50:38,280 --> 01:50:41,880
Speaker 5: even particularly crucial to the pro slavery side in Kansas

2366
01:50:41,920 --> 01:50:42,680
Speaker 5: where they.

2367
01:50:44,360 --> 01:50:45,679
Speaker 6: Was that justified killing?

2368
01:50:45,720 --> 01:50:47,800
Speaker 5: And I would say the majority of historians that I

2369
01:50:47,880 --> 01:50:50,600
Speaker 5: read for this read for this project say that they're not.

2370
01:50:50,760 --> 01:50:53,200
Speaker 5: But the ones that do say he was justified will

2371
01:50:53,200 --> 01:50:56,280
Speaker 5: really point out that, you know, what was also terrorism,

2372
01:50:56,439 --> 01:51:00,920
Speaker 5: what was also violence was slavery. And we talk about

2373
01:51:01,920 --> 01:51:05,080
Speaker 5: Brown's killings as this form of like terroristic violence, and

2374
01:51:05,080 --> 01:51:07,439
Speaker 5: these historians who are more sympathetic to Brown will argue,

2375
01:51:07,439 --> 01:51:11,799
Speaker 5: and I think quite understandably that we never talk about

2376
01:51:11,920 --> 01:51:15,879
Speaker 5: the slaveholders or the founding fathers who kept people violently

2377
01:51:15,880 --> 01:51:19,160
Speaker 5: against their will as a form of terrorism.

2378
01:51:19,200 --> 01:51:21,040
Speaker 6: But how is it not right like it's.

2379
01:51:21,080 --> 01:51:25,320
Speaker 5: And so if you consider slavery to be a form

2380
01:51:25,360 --> 01:51:28,360
Speaker 5: of warfare, which seems legitimate at least in theory to me,

2381
01:51:28,800 --> 01:51:33,280
Speaker 5: then why is Brown responding to that terrorism by killing

2382
01:51:33,360 --> 01:51:36,320
Speaker 5: these guys not a form of of like engaging the

2383
01:51:36,360 --> 01:51:38,040
Speaker 5: Battlefield's that's the counter.

2384
01:51:37,960 --> 01:51:40,120
Speaker 3: It also belies the fact that there was massive violence

2385
01:51:40,120 --> 01:51:42,080
Speaker 3: on the pro slavery side too, to kick all these

2386
01:51:42,120 --> 01:51:45,880
Speaker 3: apples voters out Kansas. Yeah exactly, I mean massive, I

2387
01:51:45,960 --> 01:51:48,920
Speaker 3: mean absolute bloodshed. So I consider here and talk about

2388
01:51:48,920 --> 01:51:49,400
Speaker 3: this all day.

2389
01:51:49,720 --> 01:51:51,719
Speaker 2: We're running out of time, So Jeff, where can people

2390
01:51:51,720 --> 01:51:53,000
Speaker 2: find the podcast?

2391
01:51:53,000 --> 01:51:55,240
Speaker 3: What should they do is rate, subscribe.

2392
01:51:54,720 --> 01:51:58,720
Speaker 5: American Carnage on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Patreon. If you

2393
01:51:58,760 --> 01:52:00,479
Speaker 5: want to throw three bucks our way would be super

2394
01:52:00,479 --> 01:52:01,920
Speaker 5: grateful as well, but no, no pressure.

2395
01:52:01,920 --> 01:52:03,240
Speaker 3: We'll put a link down in the description.

2396
01:52:03,400 --> 01:52:04,440
Speaker 4: It's really interesting.

2397
01:52:04,600 --> 01:52:07,960
Speaker 1: It's obviously very relevant to the current moment in terms

2398
01:52:08,000 --> 01:52:10,320
Speaker 1: of the violent and kaza and you know, discussions about

2399
01:52:10,360 --> 01:52:12,439
Speaker 1: Hamas and a lot of the same sort of like

2400
01:52:12,560 --> 01:52:15,120
Speaker 1: moral and ethical questions. I'm not going to like say

2401
01:52:15,160 --> 01:52:17,560
Speaker 1: it's equivalent, but there are some echoes.

2402
01:52:17,120 --> 01:52:20,479
Speaker 5: Here a few years ago that John Brown is the

2403
01:52:20,640 --> 01:52:24,760
Speaker 5: nineteenth century Hamas and Hybola equivalents. And will I will

2404
01:52:24,880 --> 01:52:26,719
Speaker 5: leave it to have to listen to the podcast.

2405
01:52:27,200 --> 01:52:29,400
Speaker 1: He's gonna try to keep his Washington Post job as

2406
01:52:29,400 --> 01:52:32,639
Speaker 1: well and not fully comment on that particular deal step

2407
01:52:32,680 --> 01:52:32,920
Speaker 1: in that.

2408
01:52:33,600 --> 01:52:35,360
Speaker 4: But Jeff, it really is fascinating.

2409
01:52:35,439 --> 01:52:37,760
Speaker 1: I'm learning a lot from listening to it, and it's causing

2410
01:52:37,800 --> 01:52:39,519
Speaker 1: me to think a lot too, Like I said about

2411
01:52:39,680 --> 01:52:40,839
Speaker 1: current moral quandaries.

2412
01:52:40,840 --> 01:52:42,080
Speaker 4: So thank you so much. It's great to see you.

2413
01:52:42,080 --> 01:52:44,479
Speaker 2: Congratulations, great to see you man, true pleasure being Thanks guy,

2414
01:52:44,479 --> 01:52:45,240
Speaker 2: good job, thank you.

2415
01:52:45,479 --> 01:52:46,360
Speaker 3: We'll see you guys later