Speaker 1: If you want your kid to be a Division one
Speaker 1: athlete and he's ten years old, what you want most
Speaker 1: of all is for that court or that field to
Speaker 1: be his happy place.
Speaker 2: You want him to go to.
Speaker 1: Practice with a smile on his face, seeing his friends
Speaker 1: and running onto.
Speaker 2: The field because he loves being there.
Speaker 1: The competition and the drive, and the skills and the
Speaker 1: strength and conditioning that can all come later.
Speaker 3: This is the Reform Sports Project, a podcast about restoring
Speaker 3: healthy balance and perspective in all areas of sports through
Speaker 3: education and advocacy. Hi, this is Nick moncor from the
Speaker 3: Reform Sports Podcast. Today, I'm speaking with Seth Davis, senior
Speaker 3: writer for The Athletic covering college basketball and studio analysts
Speaker 3: for CBS. Prior to joining The Athletic, Seth worked as
Speaker 3: a writer for Sports Illustrator for twenty two years. The
Speaker 3: author of six books, including New York Times bestseller Wooden,
Speaker 3: A Coach's Life, Seth was recently inducted into the US
Speaker 3: Basketball Writers' Associations Hall of Fame. Seth and I discussed
Speaker 3: the transfer culture at the youth and collegiate levels, why
Speaker 3: early sports specialization is doing our kids a huge disservice
Speaker 3: and now playing a sport in college significantly changes your
Speaker 3: college experience. Seth Davis, Man, I can't thank you enough
Speaker 3: for hopping on bro. This has been something I've been
Speaker 3: looking forward to when we finally make the time. You're a
Speaker 3: busy man.
Speaker 1: Well you're pretty busy too, but I appreciate your your
Speaker 1: dog in pursuit, your pleasant persistence is what I try
Speaker 1: to counsel people who want to get into this business.
Speaker 2: So I appreciate you chasing me down. I'm happy to
Speaker 2: do it.
Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate you, man. And we're talking youth sports,
Speaker 3: athletic development, kind of everything in between. I know you're
Speaker 3: a father, you know you cut your teeth, and you know,
Speaker 3: being a journalist and being in broadcasting all those things,
Speaker 3: and you know, I would love to start here, Seth.
Speaker 3: You've been covering college basketball for you know, twenty thirty years,
Speaker 3: whatever the exact number is, and you know there's been
Speaker 3: a major shift in youth sports, the professionalization and youth sports,
Speaker 3: and now you're seeing I think a lot of that
Speaker 3: in college sports, where they're calling it the professionation of
Speaker 3: college sports, which I think you could probably certainly call
Speaker 3: pro sports now. But from your vantage point, as someone
Speaker 3: who's been following the college athletics so intimately for so long, Like,
Speaker 3: what have you seen or have you seen things that
Speaker 3: have maybe trickled up from youth sports? And I mean
Speaker 3: maybe you could speak from your experience as a sports
Speaker 3: parent as well as from your perspective as as a
Speaker 3: journalist and someone who covers the college game.
Speaker 1: Well, I think we sort of need to divide and
Speaker 1: conquer what we're talking about. Right, So when you talk
Speaker 1: about the sort of professionalization of college sports, and of
Speaker 1: course in many respects it's been pro sports for a
Speaker 1: long time with money coming in and then money you know,
Speaker 1: escalating astronomically, I think there's a lot of good that's
Speaker 1: coming out of that. Quite frankly, I mean I've felt
Speaker 1: for a long time that these college athletes should have
Speaker 1: every opportunity to monetize themselves.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's not always about money.
Speaker 1: It's about exposure, it's about work experience, it's about pro experience.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of ways to sort of capitalize
Speaker 1: on their work and their opportunit and like all of
Speaker 1: us want to do and all of us were able
Speaker 1: to do when when we were in college, I think
Speaker 1: there's a lot of good that comes out of it. Certainly,
Speaker 1: what is happening right now in college sports, specifically in
Speaker 1: basketball and football, is the transfer and the rampant transferring.
Speaker 1: Now everyone is talking about, well, the portal change. All
Speaker 1: the Transfer Portal did, Nick was give everybody an online database.
Speaker 1: So you know, in the past, before the portal was
Speaker 1: created several years ago, if you wanted to transfer, it
Speaker 1: was all kind of word of mouth, and then now
Speaker 1: I guess.
Speaker 2: It's a little bit of social media.
Speaker 1: It wasn't ever hard to get the word out, but
Speaker 1: now it's this mass database of one stop shopping. So
Speaker 1: it's really made that part of it easier for everybody,
Speaker 1: easier for the players, easier for the coaches. You know,
Speaker 1: when you're if you're looking to bring in transfers, you're
Speaker 1: not working the phones and.
Speaker 2: You know, trying to talk to a million different people.
Speaker 1: You can just go right into the portal and see
Speaker 1: who's available and start to work from there.
Speaker 2: The major change that happened, and.
Speaker 1: I kind of evolved on this neck I'll be honest,
Speaker 1: is getting rid of what's referred to as the one
Speaker 1: time exception, which is that you know, if you transfer
Speaker 1: in the past, if you transfer, you had to sit
Speaker 1: out for one year at your destination school. You can
Speaker 1: still practice, go to school, be a student, all those things,
Speaker 1: but you couldn't play in the games. That was the
Speaker 1: only distinction. And you know, the issue became that that
Speaker 1: exception did not exist only in a couple of sports.
Speaker 2: It was football and basketball.
Speaker 1: I think it may have been like hockey, baseball, something
Speaker 1: along those lines. But every other sport in the NCAA
Speaker 1: you could transfer and not have to sit out. And
Speaker 1: that was eventually, you know, the wall that could not
Speaker 1: stand the oncoming momentum of the ocean.
Speaker 2: It just it just didn't hold. It just never made
Speaker 2: any sense.
Speaker 1: So that's really what opened the floodgates, that transfer change
Speaker 1: plus the portal. And you know, the idea is that
Speaker 1: the first time you transferred, you don't have to sit out,
Speaker 1: but if you want to transfer a second time, you
Speaker 1: do have to sit out.
Speaker 2: And now, of course people are trying to get rid
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 1: You know, they're saying, well, coaches can hop around, kids
Speaker 1: should have the same opportunity.
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily agree with that, but that's where we are.
Speaker 1: So I guess it's a long way of answering the
Speaker 1: question of whether it's trickling down or trickling up.
Speaker 2: Certainly, what I have experience with my kids, I've got
Speaker 2: three boys.
Speaker 1: We've been mostly a soccer family, playing both club soccer
Speaker 1: and you.
Speaker 2: Know rec league, ayso soccer and then for their high
Speaker 2: school arsity.
Speaker 1: And my youngest came up through the club soccer system
Speaker 1: and now he's.
Speaker 2: Really into baseball, so he's.
Speaker 1: Playing little league and he's also on two different club teams.
Speaker 1: When I hang up with you, I'm taking into practice
Speaker 1: and it's a great thing. But what I'm seeing is,
Speaker 1: you know, these kids are hopping around from to team,
Speaker 1: club to club.
Speaker 2: And frankly, a lot of that happens.
Speaker 1: Because of the clubs themselves. I mean, I had a
Speaker 1: son who plays goalie. He's a really good goalie.
Speaker 2: He was literally like.
Speaker 1: Ten years old, and he played with his team with
Speaker 1: all of his friends and it was like this great experience.
Speaker 2: Ane of them are these great high level athletes. And
Speaker 2: at the end of the season the.
Speaker 1: Coach replaced him with another goaliecause he said he was
Speaker 1: too small, Like he's ten, you're talking about. So, you know,
Speaker 1: coaches changed coaches all the time. See the clubs change
Speaker 1: coaches all the time they cut kids left and right.
Speaker 2: They're rolling it up.
Speaker 1: They're asking them to specialize twelve months a year and
Speaker 1: spend all kinds of money. So, you know, try to
Speaker 1: explain to these coaches like Tom is a rails against
Speaker 1: the whole transfer culture. I'm like, you know what, by
Speaker 1: the time they get to you, it's over. I mean
Speaker 1: they've They've just been raised in the culture where, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm playing for this team.
Speaker 2: You know, is the coach going to play me minutes?
Speaker 1: No, And I'm going to hop to another team where
Speaker 1: I'm going to have an opportunity to play. And you know,
Speaker 1: they the coaches will rail against players. Oh they're not
Speaker 1: sticking it out. But I'm like, well, oh, I'm a second.
Speaker 1: You're bringing in transfers ahead of them. So this is
Speaker 1: what's happening a lot nick where let's say you have
Speaker 1: a sophomore who hasn't played much his first couple of years. Now,
Speaker 1: normally he's tracking as a junior to go for a
Speaker 1: lot of minutes. Now the coach is going to bring
Speaker 1: in a transfer, a fifth year guy from another.
Speaker 2: School at his position.
Speaker 1: Well, the coach isn't sticking it out with me, but
Speaker 1: you want me to stick it out with you.
Speaker 2: That's not right.
Speaker 1: So it's been an interesting kind of a free for all.
Speaker 1: I think it's a net plus all around, but there
Speaker 1: are definitely some concerns and drawbacks as we manage this
Speaker 1: new age, you know, combined with the name image and
Speaker 1: like this money that's available and kids you know, basically
Speaker 1: you know, dealing themselves out to the highest bidder.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a big time change in college sports.
Speaker 3: As I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, I'm like, you know,
Speaker 3: when you're talking about cole First of all, when you're
Speaker 3: talking about college aged athletes, I mean you're talking about
Speaker 3: sure they're adults, but they're young adults.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: There's a major difference between an eight year old and
Speaker 3: an eighteen year old, right, a twenty year old and
Speaker 3: a ten year old. But the coaches that are coaching
Speaker 3: you mentioned Tom Is, I mean, you know, if he
Speaker 3: doesn't win, If a coach doesn't win, they can lose
Speaker 3: their job the next year. You know, there's definitely an impact.
Speaker 3: So we talk about that fifth year senior bringing someone in.
Speaker 3: I get that. The problem is I feel like at
Speaker 3: times some of these you know, youth coaches where you
Speaker 3: can also argue that they're livelihood's at stake, right, So
Speaker 3: it's like this tug of war. You know, we're we're
Speaker 3: big proponents of you know, make sure we're allowing kids
Speaker 3: the opportunity to enjoy the experience all of those things. However,
Speaker 3: there's such an emphasis on winning and for that same reason, right,
Speaker 3: how do you deal with as a parent, I mean,
Speaker 3: you don't want to pay these fees to go have
Speaker 3: your kid playing a terrible team, or how do you
Speaker 3: juggle the whole winning versus you know, my kid needs
Speaker 3: to develop, he likes to be in this club. He
Speaker 3: likes to be in this situation. Like when you're signing
Speaker 3: your kids up, is it important for you as a
Speaker 3: parent to have your kid be playing for the quote
Speaker 3: unquote best team or the most competitive team that's going
Speaker 3: to win the most trophies at very young ages.
Speaker 1: Well, I will say this, and I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: you know, be high for louton.
Speaker 2: On a high horse or whatever.
Speaker 1: But I come at this from a very different perspective,
Speaker 1: largely because of what I do for a living, you know. So,
Speaker 1: Like I mean, I am around very very high level
Speaker 1: athletes a lot, and I talk to the highest level
Speaker 1: of co which is a lot.
Speaker 2: I know what a real high level athlete looks like.
Speaker 1: And my kids unfortunately have my DNA, so at their level.
Speaker 2: And the kids they're playing with these are not super
Speaker 2: high level athletes.
Speaker 1: Now, a lot of them do aspire to play after
Speaker 1: high school, and I always try to talk to them
Speaker 1: and talk to their parents about like, well, you know,
Speaker 1: why do you want to play college soccer?
Speaker 2: Why do you want to play college volleyball? Because you know, Like.
Speaker 1: I have a young cousin who graduated Wisconsin a.
Speaker 2: Few years ago. He was an All Big Ten soccer
Speaker 2: player at Wisconsin.
Speaker 1: Great experience, loved Madison, loved everything about it, but.
Speaker 2: It was not a normal college experience.
Speaker 1: I mean, your life is dominated by the sport, so
Speaker 1: if you don't truly love it he and he did.
Speaker 2: Then it may not be the best thing for you.
Speaker 2: So I think a lot of times they get caught up.
Speaker 1: So my biggest thing, Nick, my number one biggest thing
Speaker 1: is the coach. And I'm not talking about what he
Speaker 1: knows about soccer. I'm talking about the kind of person
Speaker 1: he is, the deaner he has, and the way that
Speaker 1: he communicates and most.
Speaker 2: Of the time frankly, I'm disappointed. We've had some great guys.
Speaker 1: And look, I get look what you're saying about the
Speaker 1: winning thing, Like I get that, Like it is the.
Speaker 2: Coach's job to win, it is the club's job at
Speaker 2: a certain level. That's the world that we're in.
Speaker 1: And it's like, hey, if he cuts to say, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, this is what we signed up for, Like
Speaker 1: no one's promising you anything. And so it's tough and
Speaker 1: it's hard when families go through it.
Speaker 2: But to me, you know, there's too often a lack
Speaker 2: of communication.
Speaker 1: There's too often, like I think that a coach, any
Speaker 1: good coach, if a player isn't doing something right, the
Speaker 1: good coach blames himself or herself. First, I'm obviously not
Speaker 1: doing something right. What I see too often in the
Speaker 1: U sports culture, frankly, Nick, is the coach is blaming
Speaker 1: the players and this and that, and it's like, well, it's.
Speaker 2: Your job to teach them these things.
Speaker 1: It's your job to get them ready or to your
Speaker 1: point about wanting to win. Like you know, I've seen
Speaker 1: coaches take over teams and they get rid of seven
Speaker 1: kids and they bring in seven more who are better,
Speaker 1: and the team does better. And the coach thinks that
Speaker 1: he's done something great, Like, it's got nothing to do
Speaker 1: with you as a coach, Bro, you brought in better players, Like,
Speaker 1: don't kid yourself.
Speaker 2: I've seen situations, you know.
Speaker 1: I still laugh about this with my wife because my
Speaker 1: oldest son ended up planning for this guy.
Speaker 2: We loved him.
Speaker 1: But when we first came to our community, there was
Speaker 1: a coach in town who was like dominating the league,
Speaker 1: was always a great coach. I'm like, yes, I think
Speaker 1: he's a very good coach. He also has the best players.
Speaker 1: And so because they did well in the league, they.
Speaker 2: Moved up a level. Nick, I'll give you one guess
Speaker 2: what happened. They didn't do so well.
Speaker 1: So I think people just don't have a great perspective
Speaker 1: on things.
Speaker 2: They want what's best for their kids.
Speaker 1: They think their kid is better than another kid. They
Speaker 1: want their kid to go to college. But is it
Speaker 1: really for the right reasons? Is it just bragging rights?
Speaker 1: Are you living vicariously? The parental treatment of referees is abhorrent.
Speaker 1: It's just awful, you know. I always try to say, like,
Speaker 1: if the ref sucks, it's because your kids sucks, you know,
Speaker 1: like your kid's not a pro.
Speaker 2: Therefore the ref isn't a pro.
Speaker 1: So the only thing you need to be saying and
Speaker 1: that referee is thank you for being here, because, as
Speaker 1: you well know, there's a crisis and referees. So I
Speaker 1: see a lot of things I don't like. I'm a
Speaker 1: little bit detached in that regard. I will say, I
Speaker 1: love I love my kids playing sports. I love them
Speaker 1: being active, I love.
Speaker 2: Them being part of a team.
Speaker 1: I love them working out and practicing and trying to
Speaker 1: get better and working on their bodies and their conditioning
Speaker 1: and whatnot. So it's been in that plus, but I
Speaker 1: certainly see some things that I like.
Speaker 3: When we come back, Seth and I discussed the importance
Speaker 3: of coaches being honest with both players and parents. Before
Speaker 3: we go to break, I wanted to share another update
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Speaker 3: shared how we saw technology evolving within the youth sports industry.
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Speaker 3: recognize that change can be uncomfortable or simply overwhelming for
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Speaker 3: you'll get a complete look in on how to efficiently view, edit,
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Speaker 3: twenty ninth at one pm eastern eleven am Mountain Time.
Speaker 3: When we left off, Seth and I were about to
Speaker 3: talk about having open dialogue between coaches, parents, and kids
Speaker 3: and his idea for multi sport clubs. So one of
Speaker 3: the things that as you were talking about coaching there,
Speaker 3: it made me think there's really you know, from a
Speaker 3: youth perspective, a lot of times, you know, from the
Speaker 3: recreation standpoint, a lot of those coaches are volunteers. But
Speaker 3: then you know when you go to you know, a
Speaker 3: club or a place where you got to you know,
Speaker 3: pay X amount of dollars to play for the season,
Speaker 3: or you know there's a fees could be outrageous, but
Speaker 3: there's really no barrier to entry. You know, there's no licensing.
Speaker 3: You know, anyone can brand themselves. You know, I played
Speaker 3: college baseball and then I played a year overseas in Italy,
Speaker 3: and you know I can come back from Italy, you know,
Speaker 3: twenty plus years ago, brand myself as this guru and
Speaker 3: be a great marketer and salesman, and you know, all
Speaker 3: of a sudden, I can recruit kids and I'm this
Speaker 3: great coach. Well, you know, I guess my point is,
Speaker 3: like you kind of touched on it a little, but like,
Speaker 3: what to you makes a great coach at the youth level,
Speaker 3: Like I know we could talk about you kind of
Speaker 3: touched on It's not always about wins. Some people can
Speaker 3: get wins as a result of recruiting, right, But I
Speaker 3: can speak for me as a parent, like I want
Speaker 3: someone who genuinely shows an interest in my kid as
Speaker 3: a human being, who wants them, you know, who makes
Speaker 3: retention a big thing? I always say, you know, I
Speaker 3: always grade myself as a coach, is do my kids
Speaker 3: want to play the next season? Did they get better
Speaker 3: from the first day to the last. How did my
Speaker 3: most inexperienced player, you know, how did the kid that
Speaker 3: first time playing baseball at ten years old? Does he
Speaker 3: want to play again when he's eleven? Like that to
Speaker 3: me is what constitutes you know, me being a good
Speaker 3: coach or not. I guess what does it mean for you,
Speaker 3: particularly if you got to pay a fee? Like what
Speaker 3: are some of those qualities you look for? Because a
Speaker 3: lot of parents, a lot of coaches will hear this,
Speaker 3: You're saying, it's not all about win. So what are
Speaker 3: things that they can look for to really determine, you know,
Speaker 3: from your vanishment, what makes a quality youth coach?
Speaker 2: It's a great question. The number one thing is communication.
Speaker 2: How do you talk to my child?
Speaker 1: How do you communicate with us if he does something incorrect,
Speaker 1: if he does something wrong, are you yelling and screaming
Speaker 1: at him? Or are you are you demeaning him, or
Speaker 1: are you correcting him?
Speaker 2: Are you in it with him? If you I mean, I've.
Speaker 1: Had situations where you know, my kid is starting one
Speaker 1: game and then doesn't play the next and the coach
Speaker 1: doesn't say why, Like, Okay, I get it, Like if
Speaker 1: you don't want to play him, like that's fine, if
Speaker 1: you want to cut him, that's fine, But be honest,
Speaker 1: be straight with us and.
Speaker 2: Talk to him in a way that is not the meaning.
Speaker 1: You know, And you know, I'm not totally against you know,
Speaker 1: yelling in whatever capacity. I mean, my oldest son played
Speaker 1: for a coach when he was.
Speaker 2: A little bit younger. The guy's name was Danny.
Speaker 1: Used to joke like I joked at the high school,
Speaker 1: and you know, they'd be like five field and they're
Speaker 1: on the distance field.
Speaker 2: You could hear Danny from from across the way. You know,
Speaker 2: he was screaming and he was into his guys. But
Speaker 2: it was pretty positive stuff.
Speaker 1: It was energy stuff, and he had played some some
Speaker 1: pro soccer, Like he could do no wrong in my
Speaker 1: kid's eyes. But if a kid comes out of a
Speaker 1: game and you're screaming at him, and again, I have
Speaker 1: a wide berth for that, like yeah, like you know,
Speaker 1: my wife will said, oh he's mad at him?
Speaker 2: Is he's not mad at him, he's coaching him.
Speaker 1: But are you going to come back to him after
Speaker 1: the game and put your arm around him and say, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I got a little bit hot, but this
Speaker 1: is what you.
Speaker 2: Know, this is on me. I need to teach you better.
Speaker 1: And then also communicating with families.
Speaker 2: Like there should be a level of expectation. You know.
Speaker 2: I had a situation.
Speaker 1: I mentioned my youngest one playing baseball and he had
Speaker 1: joined this team and he wasn't playing and it had
Speaker 1: been a few games, and I'm just like, okay, look,
Speaker 1: we just need to.
Speaker 2: Know the deal.
Speaker 1: Like, because he was like super young, do you have
Speaker 1: a policy where everybody gets to play X number of innings?
Speaker 2: It's like, do you see him as someone who's going
Speaker 2: to play in games or he's just gonna whatever it
Speaker 2: is is fun?
Speaker 1: Fine, let us know so we can have that conversation
Speaker 1: as a family, you know. But don't you know the
Speaker 1: coach was sort of you know, making him feel bad
Speaker 1: that he's frustrated.
Speaker 2: That he's not playing. I'm like he's ten.
Speaker 1: Of course, Like as a coach, you want him to
Speaker 1: be frustrated.
Speaker 2: If you bench a guy and he's cool with that,
Speaker 2: something's wrong. So, like I said, I have.
Speaker 1: A very wide berth. I want you to be empathetic.
Speaker 1: I want you to be honest. I want you to
Speaker 1: be communicative both with my child and with his parents.
Speaker 1: And then let's all just be above board and honest
Speaker 1: with each other and everything will be fine. You want
Speaker 1: to cut them, fine, if we want to pull him, baby, we'll.
Speaker 2: Pull them if we say to him, look, this is
Speaker 2: the deal. You want to stick it out on this team.
Speaker 2: You're not going to play that much. You're the third
Speaker 2: string whatever.
Speaker 1: You know, if you like this coach, if you like
Speaker 1: the kids on the team and you want to be
Speaker 1: on the team, great, But just know.
Speaker 2: What the deal is and and you know it's it's.
Speaker 1: A tough message to get through because, like you say,
Speaker 1: you know, there's I don't know in terms of licensing,
Speaker 1: Like I'm not even thinking about like, you know, your
Speaker 1: support he knows a lot about soccer. He knows I
Speaker 1: assume they have some baseline knowledge of the game. But
Speaker 1: it's the it's the human interaction skills that I find
Speaker 1: lacking sometimes, and when they're there, I really, you know,
Speaker 1: gravitate towards towards that coach, and I'm very appreciative of
Speaker 1: that coach.
Speaker 3: You know, you made a great point where you're talking
Speaker 3: about I know you're around a lot of high level athletes.
Speaker 3: I've interviewed hundreds of folks and some of the highest
Speaker 3: level coaches and athletes as well. And and you know,
Speaker 3: sometimes there's genetics, man, there's there's God given ability. There
Speaker 3: are there's certain things that some people possess and others don't.
Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean kids can't extract families can't extract
Speaker 3: such valuable things that can take them, you know, and
Speaker 3: serve them throughout life. Which is why I have my
Speaker 3: kids and want them to play sports and be a
Speaker 3: part of things, to learn those things. And and as
Speaker 3: a parent, I don't want to take away those teachable moments, right,
Speaker 3: I mean, like you mentioned getting benched, like there's a
Speaker 3: lot to be learned in that. You know, if my kids,
Speaker 3: you know, frustrate, how come I'm not playing, like, go
Speaker 3: talk to your coach, ask them, And of course you
Speaker 3: would assume the coach is going to be willing to
Speaker 3: have that conversation let the kid know what he needs
Speaker 3: to do to get better. At the same time, as
Speaker 3: a parent, how can I if the coach is being
Speaker 3: communicative and having an open door policy and keep the
Speaker 3: lines of communication open. What are things that I can do?
Speaker 3: Is because a lot of people like to point the
Speaker 3: finger at the coach too, This coach sucks my kids
Speaker 3: not playing, YadA, YadA, YadA. I think you know, parents
Speaker 3: can get a little overly emotional. Rightfully, so those are
Speaker 3: our kids. But how can we be an ally to
Speaker 3: the coach while still you know, it's it's hard at
Speaker 3: times to keep the perspective of the long term right.
Speaker 3: No one likes to see their kids struggling or be sad,
Speaker 3: But isn't there so much value in that struggle for
Speaker 3: the long term? And can you speak on maybe some
Speaker 3: of your own personal experience as you know, maybe someone
Speaker 3: who played sports in your own life and also as
Speaker 3: a parent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's a tremendous value in that, and
Speaker 1: that's why I want my kid playing sports. You know,
Speaker 1: I mentioned my son being a goalie, and two of
Speaker 1: my three sons were goalies.
Speaker 2: And when my middle one started, I said, look.
Speaker 1: You want to be a goalie, great, you'll play goalie.
Speaker 1: We'll get your trainers. Like I'm all in, I'll be supportive.
Speaker 1: Don't play goalie unless you can handle being scored on,
Speaker 1: because most kids.
Speaker 2: Can't handle it.
Speaker 1: And if you're gonna play goalie, you're gonna get scored
Speaker 1: on a lot. And he's been a goalie all his life.
Speaker 1: And he's an incredible kid.
Speaker 2: I'm so proud of him. And he's tough.
Speaker 1: He sticks right in there, you know, and it's built
Speaker 1: his confidence. He's learned that, you know, failure is not
Speaker 1: a destination. So there is great value in that. I mean,
Speaker 1: what I would say is and I'm saying this, and
Speaker 1: all do humility, like coaches love me because and my
Speaker 1: wife I'll get for a lot of credit because we don't.
Speaker 1: And we've had some tough conversations with coaches. We don't
Speaker 1: come at them about, hey, we need to do what's
Speaker 1: best for my kid. Like I don't go to a
Speaker 1: coach you need to do this, you need to do that.
Speaker 1: I go to a coach saying I understand where you're
Speaker 1: coming from, and you have my full support. You want
Speaker 1: to bench him, you want to coach him up, you
Speaker 1: want it. Whatever you want to say to him. Like
Speaker 1: I said earlier, Nick, I just.
Speaker 2: Asked that you communicate.
Speaker 1: First of all, tell me what is the situation, Like,
Speaker 1: are you going to cut them at the end of
Speaker 1: the year.
Speaker 2: Do we need to start finding another team. I understand
Speaker 2: that that's the case. Just be honest with me. And
Speaker 2: so that's really all that I ever ask.
Speaker 1: And I find that when I've had these conversations with coaches,
Speaker 1: and it takes a lot for me to want to.
Speaker 2: Step in Nick, because I was like, Hey, you.
Speaker 1: Got a problem with the to my son, you got
Speaker 1: a problem with the coach, You go talk to the coach.
Speaker 2: I'm not talking. I'm not playing for them. I don't care.
Speaker 1: I got better things to do. I could be on
Speaker 1: a beach right now, right, you go talk to him.
Speaker 2: It takes a lot from me to reach out to coach.
Speaker 2: I need to talk about the situation, and.
Speaker 1: When I do, I have got and I don't want
Speaker 1: to say on self of grandizing.
Speaker 2: I'm just telling you the truth. Nick.
Speaker 1: I have gotten many comments from coaches and teachers and
Speaker 1: camp counselors because they go to summer camp thanking me
Speaker 1: for my approach, because I'm not coming at them saying it's.
Speaker 2: Your job to do it's best for my kid.
Speaker 1: I've come at them saying, I know it's your job
Speaker 1: to do it's best for you, and so let's talk
Speaker 1: about what's best for everybody, and let's just, like I say,
Speaker 1: be honest. And so we've generally had good experiences when
Speaker 1: it's gotten to that level.
Speaker 2: I want to pivot to.
Speaker 1: Something about because I know what kind of coming to
Speaker 1: the end of this. And I'm saying this as many
Speaker 1: people as I can, because one thing that we haven't
Speaker 1: talked about I know is a huge thing for you.
Speaker 1: I see your social media presence is specialization. And so
Speaker 1: to me, obviously this economic model for these clubs they
Speaker 1: need twelve month commitments, and I understand that.
Speaker 2: I understand that's a business. I understand that's overhead. You
Speaker 2: got to hire people, you got to pay people, blah
Speaker 2: blah blah.
Speaker 1: But it is doing our kids a huge disservice. Look
Speaker 1: at what's happening to these NBA players. They can't even
Speaker 1: play a full season. They got to take off a
Speaker 1: few games at a time because they've.
Speaker 2: Spent their whole lives. Talk about Zach Edy at Purdue.
Speaker 1: Here's a seven to four kid who moves well because
Speaker 1: he's from Canada, and he didn't play basketball till he
Speaker 1: was like fifteen years old. He played hockey, and he
Speaker 1: played baseball. He was a baseball pager, and so he
Speaker 1: played everything, and his parents wanted him to play everything.
Speaker 1: So therefore, Nick, I propose, and I'm relying on you
Speaker 1: to be the first to do this. I think there
Speaker 1: is huge money to be made in the following club model. Ready,
Speaker 1: this is a it's club sports it is now, but
Speaker 1: instead of one sport, it's multi sport.
Speaker 2: So we're going to have a group of whatever it.
Speaker 1: Is, fifteen to twenty twelve year olds. We're going to
Speaker 1: play soccer in the fall, we're going to play basketball
Speaker 1: in the winter, and we're going to play baseball in
Speaker 1: the spring. And for each season, we're gonna have coaches
Speaker 1: who are coaching in that sport and we're going to
Speaker 1: play those games, and we're gonna play in tournaments and
Speaker 1: we're going to compete.
Speaker 2: And then come winter time, we're.
Speaker 1: Going to put away the soccer cleats and we're going
Speaker 1: to bring out the sneakers and we're going to play
Speaker 1: basketball and start a whole industry of multi sport clubs.
Speaker 1: It could be two sports, it could be different combinations.
Speaker 2: It could be tennis and golf. Whatever it is where
Speaker 2: you say, if you.
Speaker 1: Come with our club, you're going to play multi sports.
Speaker 2: What do you think can we get that gowner? Is
Speaker 2: that two pie in the sky?
Speaker 3: Seth. I'm gonna tell you, man, you're you're preaching to
Speaker 3: the choir. And it's funny. Not only preaching to the choir.
Speaker 3: You talked to him all the time. I talked to
Speaker 3: Dabo Sweeney, Jim Calhoun, I mean, Tim Corbyn. I can't
Speaker 3: tell you a coach doesn't love multi sport athletes. The
Speaker 3: argument is that only the most elite athletes can be
Speaker 3: good in every sport, so they have to see the kid.
Speaker 3: That's what people who are against, you know, who are
Speaker 3: pro specialization, will say, it's only the freaks who can
Speaker 3: be good in every sport. And I'm like, that's not
Speaker 3: the case.
Speaker 1: But I've talked to doctor Dabos Sweeney a lot of
Speaker 1: these football coaches.
Speaker 2: Now, I will.
Speaker 1: Say, at once you reach a certain age, I think
Speaker 1: you know, sophomore, you know, I would say sophomore year.
Speaker 2: Of high school. I agree with you're looking if you're
Speaker 2: looking to be a D one athlete, Okay, now focus in.
Speaker 1: But the point is that by that time your body
Speaker 1: has developed so much better than all of the other
Speaker 1: sophomores and juniors in high school. You know, I'm in
Speaker 1: southern California and there's a huge volleyball presidence in our community,
Speaker 1: and what these kids are doing to their bodies is
Speaker 1: crazy and the injuries with it. But you know, it's like,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you know all of this, So
Speaker 1: I just think for a younger age, and you know what,
Speaker 1: I think we underestimate parents.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of parents are looking for that.
Speaker 2: I think parents would like. In my case, the fact
Speaker 2: is that there just.
Speaker 1: Aren't enough wreck options for sports. And then also if
Speaker 1: you want to be pretty good, like you know, my
Speaker 1: kids would play you know, you know, flight one club soccer.
Speaker 1: I mean they're okay, they're not they're not college but
Speaker 1: you know, good high school varsity. But then they play
Speaker 1: ayso and just dominate, which they love.
Speaker 2: By the way. By all of this, in particularly love.
Speaker 1: Showed up at the local rec league and you know,
Speaker 1: running circles around everybody, and that's great.
Speaker 2: I love that for him, but at a certain level,
Speaker 2: so you.
Speaker 1: Know, I just think it's it's people like you getting
Speaker 1: out there and explaining their parents like and again that's
Speaker 1: the mentality of like at the age of nine, ten eleven,
Speaker 1: you shouldn't.
Speaker 2: Be thinking about total long term success in sports. You're
Speaker 2: if you want your kid to.
Speaker 1: Be a Division one athlete and he's ten years old,
Speaker 1: and he's eleven years old, what you want most of
Speaker 1: all is for that court or that field to be
Speaker 1: his happy place. You want him to go to practice
Speaker 1: with a smile on his face, seeing his friends, seeing whatever,
Speaker 1: and running onto the field because.
Speaker 2: He loves being there.
Speaker 1: The competition and the drive and the skills and the
Speaker 1: strength and conditioning that can all come later.
Speaker 2: But too often we go into early and.
Speaker 1: It's not even at the end of the day there
Speaker 1: because you will know, it's not even the physical toll,
Speaker 1: it's the meth like they don't like it anymore, burned out.
Speaker 1: How often do you see that, like he could have
Speaker 1: been good, he's tires Sonker. Too much pressure, is too
Speaker 1: much stress making the team every year, being yelled.
Speaker 2: At how we're going to go to college. I'm like college,
Speaker 2: I'm eleven. Yeah, you know, so we get you know,
Speaker 2: it's parents do it out of love. I get that
Speaker 2: they want my best for their kids. I get that,
Speaker 2: but it's it gets very very much out of whack.
Speaker 3: Seth. Where can people connect with I know you're on Twitter,
Speaker 3: we're else. They want to find your stuff.
Speaker 2: You know what.
Speaker 1: My people want me to have a bear presence on Instagram.
Speaker 1: My kids are all over me about TikTok. But I
Speaker 1: guess I'm Analogum, I'm at Twitter. Seth Davis, hoops. That's
Speaker 1: where you and I found each other, and that's probably
Speaker 1: still the best way to find me.
Speaker 3: I love it, man. Thank you for your time, brother.
Speaker 3: I appreciate, love your passion, love your work. Keep it up, man.
Speaker 3: I can't thank you enough for coming on and sharing real.
Speaker 2: You got it at Keep going to do it, man,
Speaker 2: It's very important.
Speaker 3: I appreciate you. Set See you man. That's Seth Davis,
Speaker 3: Senior writer for The Athletic. Thanks for listening to the
Speaker 3: Reform Sports Project podcast. I'm Nick Bonacort, and our goal
Speaker 3: is to restore a healthy balance and perspective in all
Speaker 3: areas of sports through education and advocacy. For updates, please
Speaker 3: follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, or check out
Speaker 3: our website by searching for the Reform Sports Project