1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 1: Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I've had the good 2 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: fortune over a number of years now to travel back 3 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: and forth to London, and every time I go to London, 4 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: I make it a point to visit the Tower of London. 5 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: And for any number of reasons, I like to see, 6 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: you know, I like to see the history that's there, 7 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: because oh my gosh, it's extensive. I like to see 8 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: the change in the guards. I do like to see 9 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: the beef eaters as well, and I don't mean Jen, 10 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: it's you know, the guys that actually guard the Tower 11 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: of London. Many people don't realize that it's still a residence. 12 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: It's a royal residence, but you know, it's got a 13 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: long history. And that's truly an understatement on my part. 14 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: I am no historian, but I am a fan of history. 15 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: But one of the things that stands out there is 16 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: that when you make your way through their museum on 17 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: those grounds, you come across something that you didn't expect 18 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 1: to see, and that is an executioner's shopping block. It's 19 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: behind glass and it looks exactly like you think that 20 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: it would, large, big, very dark piece of wood, hand hewn, 21 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: and it's kind of kind of a cupped out area 22 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: on the very top of it, where of course the 23 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: condemned would rest their heads, and then the person wielding 24 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: either an axe or sword, many times they brought in 25 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: swordsmen from France because they were apparently the best at this, 26 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: would proceed to lop that individual's head off there in 27 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: the courtyard at the Tower of London for everybody to see. 28 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: It went on for a long long time. Of course, 29 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: they don't have executions any longer and Great Britain, but 30 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: here in America we still do. And there's any number 31 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: of ways that the goals of executions can be reached methods, 32 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: if you will. Today, we're going to talk about a 33 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: recent execution in the state of Alabama that took place 34 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: on the twenty fifth of January by unique method nitrogen gas. 35 00:02:50,400 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Buys David. 36 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: I was chatting with my wife about doing this episode today, 37 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: and she had suggested that I speak to the idea 38 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: of an experience that I had when I'm still a 39 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: death investigator, where I was having panic attacks all the 40 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 1: time and it signaled the end of my career. I 41 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: thought I was always having a heart attack. And what 42 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: came along with those panic attacks, other than the crushing 43 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: chest paint that I had and no, I didn't have 44 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: a heart attack, was my inability to catch my breath. 45 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: And I often felt like the proverbial fish on the 46 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: dock out of water. You know, you know that there's air, 47 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: but yet you try to take it in, but you're 48 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: shallow breathing. And I always, you know, i'd get this 49 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: idea of these gills, you know, kind of moving like 50 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: you see a fish on a deck. And when I 51 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: heard about this method that the State of Alabama was 52 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: going to employ relative to execution, it really it kind 53 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: of stopped me for a moment and made me think 54 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: back to cases I've had as a death investigator, which 55 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: we can get into, particularly those involving individuals that read 56 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: the book. What's referred to its final exit, And for me, 57 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: the only thing I could think of was gasping for breath, right, 58 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: That's what it came down to. 59 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 2: I got to tell you two things. One, I'm so 60 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: thankful that you talk about what you went through with 61 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: panic attacks, the PTSD, the things that you've shared on 62 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 2: the air, through the podcast, on TV, and in your 63 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: book because I think by admitting that as a public figure, 64 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,559 Speaker 2: as somebody who is on TV, radio and everything else 65 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 2: every day, that you're giving hope and comfort to those 66 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 2: who are suffering and haven't admitted it yet. And I 67 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 2: think that's something that is remarkable and I'm thankful that 68 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: you do it. There are too many people suffering in 69 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,239 Speaker 2: silence and don't know there's help. 70 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: So yeah, there is truly help. You you can recover 71 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: from it. And interestingly enough, Dave, you know what my 72 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: best therapy has been what you and I are doing 73 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,239 Speaker 1: right now talking about it. And I don't mean talking 74 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 1: with a therapist, although I went through all that, but 75 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: when I can talk about what I did for a living, 76 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: it's a purging, I think to a great degree. And 77 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: plus it's educating and people need to understand that you 78 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: can bounce back from these things. 79 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 2: And I think it's important to know that because you 80 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: can back, you can bounce back from anything. It really 81 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: is a matter of it's a personal honesty with yourself 82 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: that you have an issue you've got to deal with, 83 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 2: get it out and get it out. And believe me, 84 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: you will be amazed at how many people are ready 85 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 2: to say, Wow, me too. Or wow, let me just 86 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 2: love on you, dude. Everything's going to be fine. And 87 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 2: then part two, of course, is nitrogen hypoxia. What in 88 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: the world are we even talking about? Why did they 89 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 2: try to No, back up a second, because my first 90 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 2: question is I have limited sympathy for somebody who is 91 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 2: in this position. Okay, but I would think that there 92 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 2: would not be a guinea pig in the chair, you know, 93 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 2: that we would actually have tried this, but we haven't. 94 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,799 Speaker 2: This is like, hey, I think this might work, let's 95 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 2: try it. He's a condemned man, let's go ahead. And 96 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: we tried it once before the other way, And you know, 97 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 2: I'm just a little confused in twenty twenty four that 98 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 2: we actually have a man who's been sentenced to death 99 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 2: and he's been in there long enough to be so 100 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 2: fat we couldn't even find a vein, and now we're 101 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 2: going to have to try something that's never been tried 102 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 2: before to try to take his life. 103 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that interesting? Because you know they had, as 104 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: you had mentioned, they had previously attempted a lethal injection 105 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: on this fellow, and they couldn't get the line started, 106 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: you know, where they have to push the drugs, because 107 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,679 Speaker 1: there's a series of drugs. It's a it's a lethal 108 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: cocktail that's that's a pushed most of the time, it's 109 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: something similar to phenobarbital that's gonna you know, put these 110 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: people into a very very deep coma and they're essentially 111 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: put into a position where they can stop their heart, 112 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: stop their brain activity. This is completely different methodology here, 113 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: though you're it's not depended upon putting in an IV line, 114 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: you know, the individual. If you're thinking about medical devices 115 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: for folks at home, you can think about an EKG. 116 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: The paths that they hook up to you. You know, 117 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: they put them on your chest and put them on 118 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: your legs and they're checking you know, they're checking r 119 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: They have a heart monitor that's hooked up. And here's 120 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: something else interesting for those of you that have been 121 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: in the hospital. Line don't know yet if they did this, 122 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: but there is actually if you've ever been in the 123 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: hospital and they put the thing on your finger that's 124 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: called a pulse ox it's actually it's actually measuring your 125 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: level of oxygen in your system. And that's the crux 126 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: of this whole thing, because with nitrogen hypoxia, what is 127 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: actually occurring is that they are replacing oxygen with nitrogen. 128 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,679 Speaker 1: Even when we were young kids in first learning science 129 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: in school, we learned about the various elements that are 130 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: out there that we breathe in and out every day. 131 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: Nitrogen is a naturally occurring element in a gaseo state 132 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: that you do, in fact breed, and nitrogen by itself 133 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: is not going to kill you. However, if you absent 134 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: oxygen from the environment and make it purely nitrogen, that's 135 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 1: going to take your life. And I think that that's 136 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: what they were aiming towards here, But you settle lot. 137 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: You know, when you talked about never having tried it before. 138 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: That the only thing I could really find in the literature. 139 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: First off, there have been people that have died as 140 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: a result of nitrogen hypoxia, but that data actually comes 141 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: from Oshia or similar organizations. We have on the job 142 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: events that occur, and veterinarians have apparently attempted to use 143 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: it as a form of euthanasia with animals. And here's 144 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: one of the disturbing things. They said, it works, it's 145 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 1: highly effective if you use it on hogs, but it 146 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: shows hang on, let me get the verbiage right here. 147 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 1: They found that with other species it caused them great distress. 148 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: So that tells me that they've used it on multiple species, 149 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: probably dogs and cats, and that it created this kind 150 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: of you know, anxiety or distress or whatever it was 151 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: when they started in lad in this glass. But can 152 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: you correlate that with is there some kind of predictability 153 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: thing that you can apply to that in a controlled 154 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: environment where you're you've got actually a human subject. 155 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: You got a feeling this is going to turn out 156 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 2: really ugly for the great State of Alabama. 157 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: Well, you know, here's the thing about there's two other 158 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: states that have adopted this method and haven't used it yet. 159 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 2: I feel like they're waiting for somebody else to do 160 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,079 Speaker 2: it first, for it to fail there so they cannot 161 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 2: use it. 162 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, you go first, watch, you know, and so I 163 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: think Oklahoma and Mississippi and they're, you know, they're they're 164 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 1: thinking about this, and that's why the. 165 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 2: Other states are sitting around like that serial commercial, Get 166 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 2: Mighty to do it. 167 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know, precisely, and they're you know, they're 168 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: thinking what you know, oh gee whiz, you know, kind 169 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: of snarky, what could go wrong? And yeah, the. 170 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 2: Worst that can happen is you're trying to kill somebody. 171 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right, But you don't know 172 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: how it's going to play. And that's the important thing here, 173 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: thing about it. Regardless of where you fall on death penalty, 174 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: it's important to understand. Let's say that you're all for 175 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: death penalty and that's okay. However, if you take this 176 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: path using nitrogen gas and it fails, are really really 177 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: is less than what you would consider a stellar outing, 178 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: then that could compromise your ability in all other areas 179 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: or all other methodologies to use, you know, what is acceptable. 180 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: I think everybody has talked about the death penalty for 181 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: so long being you know, it has been used as 182 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: a as a deterrent to crime. And there's an old 183 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: image that I'm quite fond of from the Old West, 184 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: and it is an image of a public hanging and 185 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: it's prior to the hanging and many you can look 186 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: this up and people can see this, but it's really striking. 187 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: And you know, Dave, when you look at it, you 188 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 1: can see this western town they have like their little square, 189 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: and you see hundreds it's literally hundreds of people all 190 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: milling about and there's a gallows there and you can 191 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: see people standing on gallows. You can't really make out 192 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: who they are, but there is one individual in the crowd, 193 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: actually two. It was apparently a father and his little 194 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: boy that looked like he was about six or seven. 195 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: And the father had picked him up and this is 196 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: like in the eighteen eighties, had picked him up, put 197 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: him up on his shoulders, and they were about fifteen 198 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: rows deep away from the gallows. And often when I 199 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: look at that photo, I think about the words that 200 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: the father may have used, or may have said to 201 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: his son. Do you see that man up there? Do 202 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: you know what he did? Now he has to pay 203 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: the ultimate price, And at that point in time, the 204 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: little boy was faced with the reality of determinance. Whether 205 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: you're the most godly person on the face of the 206 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: planet or the single most evil individual that's ever walked 207 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: the earth. We've all got story. We've all got story, 208 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: and I guess I guess our story would would have 209 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: to be with our case today is you know, how 210 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: did how did Kennethy Jeene Smith wind up in the 211 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: position where he is strapped to Ernie Day and they're 212 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: putting a face mask on him that is going to 213 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: fill his lungs with nitrogen gas. You know, we have 214 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: to understand that, and I think more importantly, we have 215 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: to understand who his victim was. 216 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: That's it, you know, right now, with his news, with 217 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 2: his name and the news over the last week, while 218 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: it's been discussed, it's been in the news several times 219 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: over the last few years over what he's gone down, 220 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: which it's an odd story in that. But the person 221 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: that's lost in all of this was a mother, potential grandmother. 222 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: Her name Elizabeth Stinnett. She was forty five years old 223 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 2: and her husband was pastor of the the church they 224 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 2: lived in the parsonage. And this story begins with him 225 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: calling the police, my wife's been murdered. There's been a 226 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 2: home invasion. Send help quick, and he's freaking out so 227 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: loud that the second Terry the dances the phone doesn't 228 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 2: even understand what he's saying, and she hands it off 229 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 2: to Ronnie May. The reason the name Ronnie May means 230 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: something is that he was the investigator for Culbert County, Alabama, 231 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 2: who ends up taking the call ands calm down, you know, 232 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 2: tell me what's happening, and he is the investigator that 233 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 2: goes to the scene. It was Ronnie May who got 234 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 2: there and is talking to the pastor of the church. 235 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: It's his wife. His name's Charles Starrett is Stinnett, Rother. 236 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: Charles Stinnett says his wife's been murdered by a home invasion. 237 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 2: When the investigators get there, the scene doesn't look right. 238 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 2: They check for a pulse on Elizabeth, can't find one, 239 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 2: and they begin making notes. The paramedics arrive and they 240 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 2: find a pulse. The minute they find a pulse, and 241 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 2: again Ronnie May, the investigator, did check for a pulse 242 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 2: when he got there and said he couldn't feel one, 243 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 2: and so they began the investigation of the crime scene 244 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 2: with her body. They're waiting on paramedics. As soon as 245 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 2: they find the pulse, Joe, it looked like Charles Stennett 246 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 2: was going to fall out right then, and that was 247 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: a note the investigators made. Now she died later at 248 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: the hospital. She never recovered consciousness, but they began looking 249 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 2: at the scene. It looks staged to the investigators, so 250 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 2: they start looking into this fairly quickly. They bring Charles 251 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 2: Stennet in for an interview, and one thing leads to 252 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 2: another and they find out that he's been having an affair. 253 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 2: They find out that he bought in life insurance, increased 254 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: her life insurance coverage, and one thing led to another. 255 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 2: They actually had a call to their crime tip line, 256 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 2: you know, crime watchers, and that was a name that 257 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 2: came through that they threw out at him during one 258 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 2: of their interviews with Charles Stinnett. Hey do you know 259 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 2: this guy? And they said that Charles Stennett face turned 260 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 2: beat red and he left. He left the police office. 261 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 2: This is within a week. 262 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, because he wasn't under arrest to go. 263 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 2: They were just talking to him and that's why he 264 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 2: was able to leave. But he left freaking out with 265 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 2: a red face. They knew they hit him with that, 266 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: and by this time they kind of knew that he 267 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 2: was involved. They didn't know what a level he was involved, 268 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 2: but Charles Stinnett left. The police goes to the family 269 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 2: home because he told them to meet, and he confesses 270 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 2: to his family he's been having an affair and that 271 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: he was involved in their mother's death, and then he 272 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 2: goes out to his old truck and shoots himself. Ronnie May, 273 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 2: the investigator who was there at the crime scene when 274 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 2: he was called about Elizabeth Stennett and rode to the 275 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 2: hospital with her, hoping she would utter something. Was there 276 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 2: for Charles Stennett too, He rode with the paramedics, hoping 277 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 2: he would utter something. 278 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: He didn't. 279 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 2: And so now we've got a husband and wife both 280 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 2: dead and a stage crime scene. And they didn't think 281 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 2: Charles Stennett was the one who pulled the trigger. That well, 282 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 2: she wasn't shot. She was actually beaten to death. And 283 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 2: by the way, just to give you an idea how 284 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 2: this forty five year old woman was beaten, they said 285 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 2: that she really fought. Ronnie May, the investigator, said she 286 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 2: really fought hard, and they beat her. They choked her, 287 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 2: They used a fire poker using the fireplace. I say 288 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 2: they because there were multiple people involved. It ended up 289 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: being a murder for hire, the murder for hire of 290 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Stennett by her pastor husband, Charles Stennett. He got 291 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 2: one of the guys that rented a house from him 292 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 2: and reached out. His name was Billy Gray Williams, and 293 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 2: he offered Billy Gray Williams three grand to kill his wife. 294 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 2: Billy reached out to John Forrest Parker and Kenneth Eugene 295 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 2: Smith and they all worked the deal out and staged 296 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 2: the scene. They took a BCR and a TV or 297 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 2: a stereo which they recovered police recovered it from their 298 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: houses and that's what happened. The bottom line is Billy 299 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 2: Gray Williams was convicted and sent us to life in 300 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 2: prison without the possibility of parole. He died in prison 301 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 2: November twenty twenty. This happened in March of nineteen eighty eight, 302 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 2: March eighteenth, nineteen eighty eight, and the man lived until 303 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 2: twenty twenty. John Forest Parker was sentenced to death and 304 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 2: he was executed via lethal injection June twenty ten, So 305 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 2: he got what twenty two years in prison before his death. 306 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and at the time of the STAPIM, we're fourteen 307 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: years down range from the initial execution that had taken 308 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: place associated with this poor woman's homicide. 309 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 2: So why did it take so long for Kenneth Eugene Smith? 310 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 2: Why are we talking about him today in twenty twenty 311 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,719 Speaker 2: four He's just now been put to death by an 312 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: experimental means? 313 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't it something you know? You have you have 314 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: this much time to kind of work things out and 315 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 1: pursue this. And I know that he he had a 316 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: defense team. You know that kept appealing these sorts of things, 317 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: and that's that's the way the process works. It's not 318 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: very streamlined. And and here they are. They're you know, 319 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: you wait all of this time, and you're going to 320 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: hang your your hopes on this this agent because that's 321 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: what it is that would lead to his death. And look, 322 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: you know some of the initial reports are coming in 323 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: right now, and I really want to, I really want to. 324 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: And look, if it was videotape, we're never going to 325 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: see that tape. That's not going to happen. 326 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 2: Don't they videotape most of these executions? 327 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: I think that they probably do from a documentary standpoint 328 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: to document the event. 329 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 2: But we're going to do it, why don't they do 330 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 2: it in public? So you mentioned the story, I'm taking 331 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 2: his son to look at the crime. Right, let's see 332 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 2: the deterrent. I don't see. 333 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it happens in a in a vacuum here. You know, 334 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: you're no one. It's not a it's not an appreciable event. 335 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: In if you're talking about this purely from a deterrent standpoint, 336 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: you're not going to be deterred from doing something bad 337 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: if you don't bear witness to the consequences. It's counterintuitive 338 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: to me, it is, at least, and I'm not saying 339 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: that I want to look, I've seen enough death in 340 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: my life. I'm not saying that I'm going to drag 341 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: my family down to the town square and watched this. 342 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: But how they limit this thing with a number of 343 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: people that can bear witness to it and these sorts 344 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: of things, I don't see how it is an effective 345 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: to turn. And so this guy has been languishing on 346 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: death row. We've been taking care of him, our tax 347 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: dollars have for all of these years, and so it 348 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: seems it seems as though that we've come to this 349 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: point where he has been killed with an experimental method. 350 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: And you know what I'm at least initially hearing at 351 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: the time of this conversation we're having Dave, is that 352 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: this execution lacked efficiency. I think that that's probably the 353 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: most gentle way I can put this. He's strapped to 354 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: a table, he strapped across a chest to ways feet 355 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: are tied down, and he apparently smiled, acknowledged his family 356 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: who he has a wife and a child that were 357 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: actually there present for the autopsy, including his spiritual advisor, 358 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,479 Speaker 1: and then victims of this poor woman's family that's still remained, 359 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: her son, who was a teenager by the way, at 360 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: the time of her her murder. They were there and 361 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: then all of the authorities he apparently looked over, told 362 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: him he loved them, his family, and he read a 363 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: statement which was rather lengthy. It evolved us stepping backs 364 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: as human race, you know, the lack of humanity, those 365 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 1: sorts of things. And then they put this this mask 366 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: over him, which is kind of fascinating. The mechanism that 367 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: they're trying to employ, and this first time that's been done. 368 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: Just keep that in mind. And it sounds as though 369 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: this mask is very similar to what firefighters use, you know, 370 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: it's one of these all encompassing masks. If people have 371 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: ever seen a movie like Backdraft with the firefighters, and 372 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: they've got this thing that encompasses the entire face and 373 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: you can see out of it. It's not like a 374 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: it's not like a mask that you commonly think were 375 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: people an oxygen mask, or even a canyon that you 376 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: stick in your nose. This is an all encompassing mass 377 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 1: that has to be sealed, because that's what they're trying 378 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: to do. They're trying to infuse the air that he 379 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 1: is breathing with pure nitrogen. And you know, it sounds 380 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: as though that it didn't go off quite as quickly 381 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: as they thought it would. As a matter of fact, 382 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: I read one report Dave where they said that it 383 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: took close to twenty minutes for him to die. Which 384 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: I know that there are those hearing this and listening 385 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: to this, and you're going to think, well, he suffered, 386 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: just like this poor woman suffered. Yeah, you're right, he 387 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: did suffer. But here's the problem. If you want to 388 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: maintain the death penalty, there is a protection in the 389 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: US Constitution against cruel and unusual punishment, and so if 390 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: there's even a perception that this was cruel and unusual, 391 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: now this methodology is taken off the table and you're 392 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: back to square one with drugs. So it's kind of 393 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 1: a it's it's a catch twenty two. I think here, 394 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: the state and everybody else involved in this is kind 395 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: of an in an interesting position, because trust me, this 396 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: thing is going to be examined and re examined over 397 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: and over again. I was working in Atlanta with the 398 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: medical Examiner. I had one of my old colleagues down 399 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: in New Orleans who contacted me. He called me up 400 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: one evening while I was at work and he said, 401 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: have you worked any final exit cases? And I was like, 402 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: first off, what's a final exit case? And where are you? 403 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: Asked me this, and you know, I said, no, I haven't. 404 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: What is that? And he said, well, there's a book 405 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: out called Final Exit and it's a it's essentially a 406 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 1: book that was written and published by, of all people, 407 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: hang on to your hat, I believe the publisher was 408 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: called the Hemlock Society. So this book, Final Exit, which 409 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: was actually written by a fellow named Derek Humphrey whose 410 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: wife had died as a result of poisoning that he facilitated. 411 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: He aided her in this, all right. He prepared a drink, 412 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: a tea I think, for her to take. She had 413 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: horrible cancer, and she drank it. He didn't force her 414 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: to drink it, but he prepared the drink. And so 415 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: this is, you know, one of the things that got 416 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: this guy thinking about this idea of what he refers 417 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: to a self deliverance. It's assistant suicide. And now assistant suicide, 418 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: you know, is in a lot of places around the 419 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: country and over in Europe, as well, and with the 420 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: publication of that book, we in the medical legal community 421 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: had any number of cases following that following the publication 422 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: that were associated with final exit methodologies. And in this 423 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 1: book they actually laid out how to go about doing this. 424 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 1: And I'm telling you this because Humphrey himself went on 425 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: to tape videos of all things dave of how would 426 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: one go about painlessly bringing about your death? How shocked? 427 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 1: You know? These things were for a time up on YouTube. 428 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: I don't know if they've taken them down. Who knows 429 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 1: what YouTube does anyway, But his recommendation for people was 430 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: to use helium helium and he would actually acquire it 431 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: through going to a party story and purchasing a canister 432 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: of helium. Well, what does that have in common with 433 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: our topic? And well, it's helium, just like nitrogen is 434 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: an inert gas, and so it doesn't have elements of 435 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: toxicity to it. You got to think back, you know, 436 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: years ago out in Cali, when they were still using 437 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: the gas chamber, they would take potassium cyanide and drop 438 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: it into sulphuric acid inside of the gas chamber and 439 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: the person be strapped in the chair. It was a 440 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: horrific death. You know, it would fill up with you know, 441 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: with the fumes from the stuff, and it was painful, noxious, 442 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: burned the lungs, burned, the eyes, you'd have you know, 443 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: foaming from the mouth because of congestive failure, and it 444 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 1: was quite quite horrible to see. And then it was 445 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 1: its lethal for anybody that was around it as well. 446 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: So they were in this it's literally a chamber. And 447 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: but that's that's not what this is because this is 448 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,959 Speaker 1: not nitrogen is not toxic in that sense. Okay, it's not. 449 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: It's not like cyanide. It's something completely different. It's merely 450 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: oxygen replacement, just like you know, Humphreys had had written 451 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: about and demonstrated to the entire world utilizing helium, which 452 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: for many of us was quite shocking, you know, because 453 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: none of us had ever seen anybody go to these 454 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: links to go through great detail of telling how people 455 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: to do this. But here we are where we've literally 456 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: we've literally wound up here where they're using nitrogen gas. 457 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: That has been suggested actually for people that talk about 458 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: self deliverance. They've actually talked about this in Europe as 459 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: utilizing nitrogen gas because of the fact that it is 460 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: an inert gas. It's it's a peculiar time to be 461 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: in this environment and be in the world that we're 462 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: in right now. Day. 463 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 2: I just keep thinking Joe, and I've never witnessed an execution, 464 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: but I keep I'm thinking about the victim, the victim's family. 465 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 2: I'm I'm a hauled that this guy gets to make 466 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: some lifelong statement after he has spent decades on our dime, 467 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 2: that he's been able to get so fat that we 468 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 2: couldn't get a needle in his arm. You know that 469 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 2: we paid for this. Now the woman that he killed, 470 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 2: that he got paid for killing. He actually took money 471 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 2: to take a life. She died in nineteen eighty eight 472 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 2: at the age of forty five. This guy's been on 473 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 2: death row pretty much since then for the rest of 474 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 2: his life, just waiting, finding ways to mess with the system. 475 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 2: You know, he looks so happy with himself when they 476 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 2: couldn't get the needle in his arm. And there has 477 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 2: been talked I believe it was from a li Elizabeth 478 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 2: uh Stennet's son, who said that he dehydrated himself before 479 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 2: the event so that they couldn't get a needle in 480 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 2: there is is there any truth to that. 481 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know there can be because what and look, 482 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,479 Speaker 1: any of us can experience this. I don't know if 483 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: you've experienced it, Dave. But and I'm not saying you 484 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: dehydrated yourself, but dependent upon how hydrated you are, it 485 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: can make it easier or are more difficult, dependent upon 486 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: circumstances to find a vein essentially, or vessel to put 487 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: an IV in. Have you ever been in that circumstance 488 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: where they were trying to put an IV in you 489 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: and they were saying, oh God, they got to do 490 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: multiple sticks. There's there's hardly too many things that are 491 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: more painful that you have to go through. And God 492 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: bless people that do it, because I could. I couldn't 493 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: do it, you know, even even as much time as 494 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: I spent in the autopsy room. There's something about sticking 495 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: a needle into somebody's arm and seeing them, seeing them squirm, 496 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: you know, while they're doing it. But yeah, yeah, the 497 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: level of hydration body can certainly play into this idea. Now, 498 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: whether or not he purposefully did, that's that's certainly interesting, 499 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: you know. And there have been other cases over time 500 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: that you know, where they have talked about this I'm 501 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: going to tell you something about myself that I don't 502 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,719 Speaker 1: know that I've ever shared with you regarding my career. 503 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: But back in the mid nineties, I was assigned to 504 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: the State Medical Examiner's Office for Georgia as a liaison 505 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: between my office in Atlanta and the State Medical Examiner 506 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: because our office in Atlanta was actually doing all of 507 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: the autopsies for the state of Georgia, so our doctors 508 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: would rotate between the two locations, and the doctors when 509 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: they got out to the State Medical Examiner's Office, it 510 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: was disorganized, they didn't have a lot of information, and 511 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: I was going to be their point of contact, and 512 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: so I was reassigned there for I don't know about 513 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: eighteen months and Dave. During that eighteen month period, there 514 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: were executions that took place in Georgia and I was 515 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: actually I was actually present and participated in to the 516 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: autopsies of executed prisoners. 517 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 2: I thought an autopsy was to determine how somebody died. 518 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 2: If you're watching them die based on a you know, 519 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 2: we're planning your death. We have decided this is the 520 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 2: method we're going to use, and we're going to kill you, 521 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 2: and then we do it and now you're dead. I 522 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 2: would think that basically we could use I don't know it, 523 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 2: picked your book and crayons and figured that one out, 524 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: but you really actually have to do a full on 525 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 2: autopsy afterwards. 526 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:46,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, just full on it. It's arguably the 527 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: most thorough autopsy that is done period. I'm not going 528 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: to go into all the detail because even for this 529 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: show it it could be a bit unpalatable I think 530 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: for some people. But it is so detailed and so thorough. 531 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: And the reason for this is, first off, we only 532 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: have five classifications of death for manners of death, and 533 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: an execution is a homicide, okay, and I you know, look, 534 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: that's the reality. And that's why I hate the word murder. 535 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: Murder is such a lawyer's word. I hate it. It's theatrical. 536 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: I love the term homicide in my world because it's 537 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: not judging the circumstances merely. All the term homicide means 538 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: is death at the hand of another. So somebody, somebody 539 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: in the death house has to press the button. They've 540 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: committed a homicide. Now we don't know who that person is. 541 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: Any executor, any executioner, can't cut that in any executioner 542 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: that is out there for you know, forever and ever. Amen. 543 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: When they swing their acts or they pull the handle 544 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: and drop the trap door, if they pull the trigger, 545 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: they've committed a homicide. By law, that's the way we 546 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 1: define it, all right, And so in this partia, it's 547 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: not accidental, it's certainly not natural, it's not undetermined, okay, 548 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: and it's not suicide. It has to be a homicide. 549 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 1: And so in most states, if you die as a 550 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 1: result of a homicide, your body's going to be autopsy. 551 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: But in any case, and it doesn't matter if it's natural, 552 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: when an individual dies in the custody of the state, okay, 553 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 1: there has to be an examination. And so that's what 554 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: compels them to actually do autopsies on executed prisoners. And 555 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,280 Speaker 1: David got to tell you, brother, the position that they're 556 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: in right now, because all eyes are on it. I mean, 557 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: you watch that. I have to watch the news. I 558 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: don't know anybody fans. I don't know anybody on the 559 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 1: face of the planet that watches news closer than my 560 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: buddy Dave Mack. He sees it day in and day out, 561 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: and I can tell you his algorithm has probably been 562 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 1: lit up with stories about this execution for the last 563 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: seventy two hours I guess leading up to it, and 564 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: when it happened, it all all the eyes of the 565 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 1: world are on Alabama. And they're not just on It's 566 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: not just the newspeople, and it's not just a citizenry. 567 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: You've got two states out there, Mississippi and Oklahoma that 568 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: are also watching this because they've got this on the 569 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: books now, Dave. They're trying to figure out is this 570 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: territory we want to get off in with our prisoners? 571 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: Are we going to employ this methodology? 572 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 2: The way you've explained it sounds like we don't possess 573 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 2: the ability to figure out the best way to kill 574 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 2: somebody that has been sentenced to death. We have the 575 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 2: firing squad, that seems pretty good. We've got electrocution seems 576 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 2: pretty good. Bring back the guillotine, that seems pretty good. 577 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 2: I'm just thinking about all the ways that we are 578 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 2: certain that somebody is going to die when we pull 579 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 2: the trigger. And I don't know why we The firing 580 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 2: squad has set up so far away when you could 581 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 2: just walk up behind them, and you know, I mean, 582 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 2: there's so many things we could do that are as 583 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 2: deliberate but more effective guaranteed there's no reason that somebody 584 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 2: should have to squirm. 585 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. And this is another point that's very 586 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: interesting about this. You know, we were talking about this idea. 587 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 1: I can't help but you know, kind it makes my 588 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: mind go hey wire, this term self deliverance, it's assisted suicide, 589 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: is what it comes down to. But they it's interesting 590 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: how people use verbiage to kind of soften things, you know, 591 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,399 Speaker 1: many times, or make it appear like it's something other 592 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,240 Speaker 1: than what it is. Again, I'm a medical legal death investigator. 593 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: There's only five classifications of death you can rule you know, 594 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:06,360 Speaker 1: are just of it? Well yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, it's homicide, suicide, accidental, natural, 595 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,919 Speaker 1: and undetermined. That's our only choices. We don't have any 596 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: other choices period in the medical legal community as to 597 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: how we're going to classify death. And then you put 598 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: the cause of death below that, and so you know, 599 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: in this case, you know you're talking about it is 600 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: a homicide and it's homicide as a result of inhaling 601 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: nitrogen gas. So you know, it's it's very simple, you 602 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: know when when you look at it from that perspective. 603 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: But yeah, we've had. There are any number of methodologies 604 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: that are out there that have been employed and some 605 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: yeah it's brutal, but you know what, dude, death is brutal. 606 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: And it seems as though that people want to make 607 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: this out to be as palatable for them as they 608 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: possibly can. That's not the reality of life, and it's 609 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,919 Speaker 1: certainly not the reality of death. Death is unpalatable. It's repugnant. 610 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: That's why we don't want people to kill other people. 611 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,839 Speaker 1: My point I were really I got horribly off track. 612 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: But with the assisted suicide that can be classified, I 613 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: guess some of my friends in the medical community probably take, 614 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 1: you know, take umbrage at me saying this, but it's 615 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: it's almost like palliative care, where you've got somebody that 616 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: is in a condition that they're in an unrecoverable flat 617 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: spin physiologically, they're not going to recover from it, and 618 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: so you're providing comfort for them. And that's I guess 619 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: to some people's way of thinking, that is comfort. That's 620 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: executions are different because I think a lot of people 621 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: actually had two people say this to me, why didn't 622 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: they give him something like why didn't they shoot him 623 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: with a bulks of adavant or something, you know, to 624 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: knock down the anxiety and make him, you know, make 625 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: him more compliant, because we don't want to watch him 626 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,399 Speaker 1: squirm on the table and that sort of thing. That's 627 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 1: not what executions are about. That's not And again it 628 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: goes back to this idea of deterrence. 629 00:38:58,360 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 2: We're showing it to anybody. 630 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not showing it to anybody. Well, the people 631 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: in that little room witnessed it, and I don't know that. 632 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: And there were people from the press corps that were there, 633 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 1: a select group. Then you had family from both sides, 634 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 1: and then you had state authorities that were there. And 635 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,839 Speaker 1: so are you making them feel uncomfortable by him see 636 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: by them bearing witness to this. Perhaps it's not the 637 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: way that they would want to go, but it's the 638 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: court hands down this idea of you know, you're going 639 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: to die. They sentence you to capital as a capital offense, 640 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: and they sentence you to capital punishment, whatever methodology in 641 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: that state is. It's not their job to make it 642 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: palatable for the victim. And so that's why they're not 643 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: given they're not given some type of drug to knock 644 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: down their anxiety over this. And also it could be argued, 645 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: I guess some sharp lawyer would say, well, if you 646 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: did that, then you're going to impede their ability to 647 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: effectively communicate. And if there's some kind of big reveal 648 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: they have at the end, have you got them so 649 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 1: drugged up that they're they're not going to be able 650 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,840 Speaker 1: to communicate effectively with counsel, with their minister, or whoever 651 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 1: it is. That's that's attached. It's a very complex situation. 652 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: After all, it seems like exactly after all these years 653 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: and and look decades, Okay, let's just go to decades, decades, centuries, 654 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: it seems like it seems like that maybe our ancestors 655 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 1: had it right relative to methodologies, because capital punishment has 656 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: always been around. It's always been around, and it seems 657 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: as though the more palatable we try to make it, 658 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 1: the less effective it is. I'm Josephcott Morgan, and this 659 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: is body backs.