WEBVTT - Bonus: A Conversation with Dr. Ruth Faden 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:08.280 Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:12.760 We decided not to tell the kids. Marlon knew that 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:15.000 once our three daughters understood that their mother had been 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:18.479 given one thousand days to live, they'd start counting. They 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:21.080 would not be able to enjoy school friends, their teams 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:26.640 for birthday parties. They'd be watching too closely how she looked, moved, 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:32.000 acted eight or didn't. Marla wanted her daughters to stay children, unburdened, 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:37.520 confident that tomorrow would look like yesterday. We threw everything 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:41.879 at her, disease lectures, research, involvement in cancer organizations, yoga, meditation, 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:45.040 teas and soups. She even went to a storefront heuer 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.080 who lit incense, read her palm, and led her in prayer. 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:53.200 He declared her a badass because of her restorative powers. 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.000 It was a nickname that I promoted with all of 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.360 her doctors and nurses because it was not only hopeful 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:03.440 but true. She didn't just by time, she cheated it, 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:07.000 squeeze months and years out of it. Marla was a 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:12.360 statistical frea conaboration and outlier. One thousand days landed firmly 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:13.440 in our rearview mirror. 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:18.479 That's John Melman. John is a New York City based 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.480 real estate executive, and this is a story of a 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:25.440 devoted husband and wife making a painful choice to keep 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:29.319 a shared secret from their children, a complex and challenging 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:37.200 decision made in the name of love. I'm Danny Shapiro 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:40.520 and this is a special bonus episode of Family Secrets. 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:43.839 Joining me to talk about a show we recorded way 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.040 back in season two of Family Secrets is the wise 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:51.560 and thoughtful doctor Ruth Fayden. Ruth is the founder of 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:55.640 the Johns Hopkins Berman Institute of Bioethics and the Philip 0:01:55.680 --> 0:02:00.920 Franklin Waggly Professor of Biomedical Ethics at Johns Hopkins. Today, 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:04.560 we'll be discussing The Loving Choice. I hope you'll go 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:07.200 back to season two in the feed and listen to 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:17.200 this heart wrenching and profoundly moving human story. Ruth, thank 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:20.360 you so much for joining me in conversation on Family Secrets. 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:21.960 Of course, my pleasure. 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:26.720 So the episode that I asked you to listen to, 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:32.240 given your area of expertise as a bioethicist, is The 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:36.200 Loving Choice. And it's one of those episodes that has 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.760 continued to haunt me even after I've now recorded ninety 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:40.880 of these episodes. 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:41.880 Oh my goodness. 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.359 Yeah, I'd like to start with what most stood out 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:47.280 for you as you were listening. 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:51.320 Well, I think what most stood out for me was 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.880 the intensity of this woman's love for her children. I 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:58.840 just think it's overwhelming what Marla did in order to 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:05.040 ensure that her children have as regular childhood and adolescence. 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:08.799 As they could possibly have. That's pretty stunning. Yeah. 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.200 The Loving Choice the title of the episode, which comes 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:16.399 from John Melman's description of what he and his wife 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:21.359 Marla chose to do, the decision that they made to 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:26.959 keep the extent of her illness from their daughters. When 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:30.320 I was preparing to record the initial episode, if I 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:36.240 remember thinking about all the different reasons why a choice 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:41.560 like that might be made, and I was remembering something 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:45.400 that you said to me when you and I first 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.480 met a number of years ago, And it's an ethical term, 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:54.320 which was retrospective moral judgment. You know, in stories like these, 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:59.520 where illnesses are kept either from the person themselves or 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:05.560 from children, they seem more common back a generation or two, 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:14.000 when you know, people really believed wholeheartedly that it was 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:16.720 just better not to know, that it was better to 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.919 keep secrets. And I mean that's less that's less true 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:23.480 today from an ethical perspective, where does that reside? 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:27.920 Well, I want to draw and a really sharp distinction 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:40.240 between professional medical ethics and personal interpersonal ethics. So you're 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:45.799 absolutely correct that the era in which it was thought 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:52.960 best for physicians to keep diagnoses from patients it has 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:59.240 long left us. It's now considered completely inappropriate for doctors 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.599 and nurses to make judgments about what patients should know 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.640 about their own health, and even in context in which 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.880 they have to deliver devastating news, they know they have 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:12.880 an obligation to do so, and although it can often 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:18.440 be wrenching and sometimes deeply damaging, there really is no 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:23.440 other alternative except to inform the person about the status 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.240 of their health so that they can make whatever decisions 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:27.920 they want to make about how they want to live 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:31.640 their lives in the face of whatever diagnosis they've received. 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:38.800 It's a separate set of issues, whether under what conditions, 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:43.680 into whom the person who's received the devastating diagnosis, or 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.360 at least the challenging diagnosis which it was from Marlin 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.479 in the beginning, it sounds like from John's telling that 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:52.160 she refused to accept that it was devastating for a 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:54.120 very long time, and she turned out to be right. 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:54.720 Right. 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:01.159 But it's a totally separate kind of ethics question what 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:07.000 people owe to those they love about their diagnosis right, 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:13.360 and that becomes deeply personal. Now it is much a 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:17.560 matter of in the case of children, what is in 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:21.080 the children's best interest to know and when than it 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:25.960 is of anything else. And arguably nobody was better positioned 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:30.919 than Marla and John to make that call. It sounds 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:36.040 like they didn't deny Marla's illness or the fact that 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:41.080 she had the diagnosis of breast cancer. They shared part 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:42.920 of the story. I think you said at one point 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:44.320 in the episode. 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.120 It was partial truths that they gave the girls. 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:53.080 Right, and it seems to me an eminently reasonable decision. Now, 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:58.160 when you raise the issue of retrospective moral judgment, I 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.800 certainly don't feel positioned to look back at Marla and 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:06.720 John's story and in any sense criticized them for what 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:10.200 they decided to share and what they chose not to share, 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.960 and when they decided to share in the end that 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:19.200 there really was no hope. It's heartbreaking. I think the 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:24.520 mistake would be to generalize from their experience to what 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:30.520 parents ought to do in all cases, in all families. 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.840 It sounds, from John's telling, as if the strategy that 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.160 they adopted was, first of all, the only thing that 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:41.720 was possible for Marla, that's how she wanted to live 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:48.080 her life, and also I think actually worked well for 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:52.800 her girls. It sounds as if they did well. I mean, 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:59.200 by John's telling, they had a pretty successful slash normal adolescence. 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:02.920 The youngest one didn't quite make it to college before 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:07.360 her mom passed away, but the other two did, And 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:13.200 I don't think they ever questioned, right the intensity of 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.640 their mother's love for them or her hopes for their future. 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:21.560 But whether this would work in another family, with other 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:28.440 children and other parents, I don't think you can go there. So, 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:33.800 in keeping with the theme of the podcast, what works 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.800 as a secret for some people would be a disaster 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:40.320 to keep secret in other families. It seems to have 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:40.960 worked here. 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:42.240 I hope it. 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:49.280 Yeah, that's such an important and interesting distinction, the idea 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:53.480 that in any given family, you're dealing with a constellation 0:08:53.559 --> 0:09:01.079 of human beings who have very specific needs and psychologies 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:07.560 and histories, and that these kinds of choices are so 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:13.959 deeply deeply personal. The way that John describes her profound 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:19.160 need for her kids to see her living normally and 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:23.840 to show them strength and resilience. And I remember when 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:28.240 I interviewed John, and you know, I don't I've done 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:30.720 so many of these interviews at this point that I 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.240 often don't remember, you know, details or where I was 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.080 or exactly at what point it was in my own life. 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:41.280 But I do remember this one because I interviewed John 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:45.000 in person in New York City because I was living 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:50.760 there because my own husband was sick with cancer, and 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:55.720 you know, we were very much in the phase that 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.960 Marla so did not want to be in of people 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.240 bringing lasagnas and castle roles and the thing, the thing 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.040 that John talked about, you know, with with a sense 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:10.840 of humor. But she didn't want, as he said, the pity, 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:15.959 and she didn't want the whispers, and she wanted her 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:20.880 daughters to be protected from that. And I, I really 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:25.120 I felt for them so much, and you know, for 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:28.840 him in recounting the story so much, because there is 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:34.680 something that can happen when normalcy suddenly or you know 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:36.680 the rest of the world is kind of you know, 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.840 just bopping along, and and suddenly we are on the 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:43.439 other side of that divide that separates the lucky from 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:45.319 the unlucky, or the well from the unwell. 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:50.960 Absolutely, and I want to underscore because there is a 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.560 risk as we talk about this, for other people listening 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:58.320 to think this is the only way to handle a 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:03.200 devastating diagnosis with your children, and I'm failing because I 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.240 can't do it. So there's that worry I have to 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.840 Marla was who she was, right, the kind of person 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.959 with a kind of strength. There's also a different kind 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:18.480 of strength that manifests itself in bringing your especially as 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:23.880 they got older, children along with you, and thankfully I 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.880 have not had to do that with my own kids. 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:28.920 I don't know which way I would play it, but 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.640 I wouldn't want to judge someone who just says, at 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:35.600 a certain point, I really think it's I can't hide 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.160 it anymore. She reached that point only at the very 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:41.120 end Marla did, right. I would think a lot of 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:45.520 people reach it sooner, right where they just say, I 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:51.400 can't hide this anymore. I'm exhausted, I feel shitty. I 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:56.400 can't be the upbeat, perky parent I've always been. I 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:58.920 can't mother them the way I would like to, and 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.320 I don't want them to suspect or think that it's 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:06.439 about them, and so I need to tell them why. 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:08.840 I need to tell them why I am not the 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:12.480 same kind of ammy what six months ago or whenever? Right, 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:17.840 it sounds like by John's telling that Marlow was able 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:21.679 to do this for years, right, somehow was able for 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:27.199 many years to conduct yourself in ways that never raised 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:30.760 worries among her children. They knew she had a disease 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:32.760 and she was being treated, and that was it. 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:33.439 Right. 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:38.360 It's pretty amazing. But not everybody can do this, and 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.079 it's not necessarily good for every family. I guess if 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.880 I had a message, it would be that there's a 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.120 related thing too that I wanted to bring up as 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:49.640 I was listening to talk about your own experience with 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:53.120 your husband very briefly just back there, and that is 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.040 there is this a little bit, and I think John 0:12:55.080 --> 0:13:02.640 references it. There's a kind of voyeurism that is actually troubling, 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:07.360 if not outright offensive. Right, when people find out that 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:10.400 someone has a serious illness, oh, they can't wait to 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:12.800 contribute to the meal train, and they want to come 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:14.800 visit and they want to know the details of the 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:16.880 illness and how is it going and how is the 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:22.040 treatment going in now? It's not necessarily anybody's business, and 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.040 a part of it is this I want to know 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:27.040 because I want to make sure that I can kind 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.480 of find things in my own life that will make 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:31.400 me feel better that this is not going to happen 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.600 to me. Right, So you know, in this case less 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:36.880 likely with the b r c A one and two gene. 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.600 But how can I reassure myself that this is happening 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.559 to Marla, but it's not going to happen to me. 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.480 It's well meaning people who don't realize that that is 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:50.560 what they're doing. But it seems like it's a kind 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.920 of human impulse because it's so pervasive that you know, 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.720 that feeling of you know, well, was there a family 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:00.640 history or did this person smoke? Or finding an narrative 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:06.600 that will draw a bright line between this unfortunate and 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:11.040 terrible and tragic experience and you know, my life and 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:13.680 why that's not going to happen to me exactly. 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:17.280 And that's exhausting for the person who's got the illness. 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:22.200 It's like, excuse me, right, I'm dealing with this. It's 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.920 hard enough. I don't need you prying into the details. 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.720 Of the origins of my illness or my prognosis or 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:32.960 any number of things. I've gone through this with friends, 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:37.200 you know, over the years, where let's say, you know, 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.800 you're the trusted friend that knows the details, and then 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.560 all these other people who want to know, So, what. 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:43.240 Did she tell you? 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:44.160 Why? 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:45.600 Not of your business? 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.600 Honestly, right, And I think some of that sounds like 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:51.640 some of that was operating for Marla. 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:52.000 And fra John. 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:56.200 They did not want to be caught up in that dynamic, 0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:59.480 and they certainly didn't want their kids to be caught 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.160 up in that kind of dynamic either, and so they 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:07.320 you know, they chose the path they chose, and it's 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.600 it's tragic, like in the context of you know, Marla's 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.400 untimely death to say it worked for them, but it 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:14.000 worked for that. 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:16.800 It should also be said for people listening to us 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:19.880 who haven't gone back and listened to that episode yet 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:26.680 that Marla was someone who, after having had her ovaries 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:30.840 removed after six rounds of chemotherapy after a bilateral mass ectomy, 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.080 was back out running four or five days a week, 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.920 and that was after her first diagnosis. Considered that a 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:43.400 speed bump, you know, and going on you know, adventurous 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:48.960 sports driven vacations, and you know, just that was the 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:54.400 kind of particular superhuman quality that she had and that 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.200 John uh So clearly really loved in her. 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:03.160 Yeah, you've said it so well. And I think lots 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:08.200 of people after that first diagnosis, especially after she's done 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:14.920 everything she can to prevent a recurrence, might reach the 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.880 same conclusion about how to handle it with their kids. 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:19.960 They're hoping it's not going to come back. There's no 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.640 reason to scare the kids into thinking it might come back, right, 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:28.120 the kids are younger then also when this begins, but 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:33.560 when it does recur and when her prognosis becomes more dire, 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.360 some people would at that point say they're older, right, 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:43.760 and it's time to bring them in. And yeah, I 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.080 was thinking about this as I was listening to the episode, 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:49.640 and I appreciate that not all your readers would have 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.200 listened the way I did, which was just before a 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.320 conversation to thinking about to some extent, this is outside 0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:59.080 the realm of ethics and more in the realm of 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:06.280 family therapy and family support. It seems so critical. Now, 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.160 maybe this couple didn't need it, but lots of couples 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:15.560 need help. Understandably trying to figure out for their families 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:19.280 with their children at whatever ages the children are at 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:23.159 the time when the really bad diagnosis comes through, So, 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.280 what are the options? How should we play this right 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:28.840 with our five year old or a fifteen year old. 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:34.600 And so it's in part a matter. 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:38.000 Of sort of personal ethics. It's the sort of ethics. 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.439 Of your family, how you've conducted your family until then. 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:45.440 And it's also i think largely a parent or parents 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:47.600 in this case, trying to figure out what's in the 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:50.919 best interests of our kids in this family at this 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:52.240 point in their lives. 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:52.840 Yeah. 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:57.800 No, that's so well put. And it also strikes me 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:02.760 that it goes against the grain of what it is 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:06.199 to be a parent to have to do or to 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:12.760 contemplate telling your child something so devastating. All we want 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.879 to do is protect our children, and it brings you 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:20.199 right up to the edge of the awareness that, of 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.840 course we can't. You know, we can't protect them from 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:27.520 bad breakups. We can't protect them from a divorce if 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:31.560 we get divorce. We can't protect them from our own mortality. 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:34.560 We can't protect them from their mortality. We can't protect 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:38.960 them from the state of the world, and to have 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:45.760 to make that choice, whatever that choice is to tell 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:49.000 to not tell, whatever it is is coming from such 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:54.840 a primal place, no matter how we might you know, 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.720 intellectualize it or figure out, you know. I think John 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:01.560 used the word script a couple of times. 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.119 Yes, one of the things I kept thinking about when 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:06.480 I was listening to John. 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.359 Realizing that the whole discussion. 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:13.960 Conversation that the two of you had was around how 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:19.320 they only shared part of the truth with their girls 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:23.560 until the very end. I kept wondering about their parents. 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:28.600 So again, it's deeply personal. You know, what's your relationship 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.880 with your parents, your in laws, right, how close are 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:35.960 you to them? But I would imagine you have a 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.600 different relationship with obviously your parents than you do to 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:44.159 your children, and all together different moral obligations. You were saying, 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:49.159 how probably the most defining characteristic of parenting, which we 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:52.720 all fail at, is the impulse to protect their children, 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.920 to make their lives perfect, right, to try to keep 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:58.160 them from never having to eat alone in the lunch room, 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:02.360 right or never you're in cypergollying, or never be excluded 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.239 from the birthday party, or not have anybody to go 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.639 to homecoming with or whatever. We want to keep all 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:11.439 of those kind of minor, but at the time, you know, 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:15.400 very difficult, challenging experiences for our kids. To a middlemum, 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.800 we want to fix it and we certainly don't want 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:23.040 to have to tell our kids something as awful as 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:26.840 they're about to lose us, right, no matter how old 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:33.040 they are, but especially when they're school aged. But with parents, 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:36.000 it's a different kind of relationship. Their job still is 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:38.119 to protect you. And even though you're a grown up 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:43.080 and an adult and you have your own kids, and again, 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.600 every family is different. Every relationship between an adult child 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:50.119 and their parents or their in laws is different. That 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:57.280 I could see parents being deeply hurt, which is something 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.520 else you need to take account of, right, deeply hurt 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.320 if the diagnosis is with help from them. And I 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:05.760 have no idea what they did, obviously what John and 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:08.120 Marla did with her. I guess they each have one 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:12.760 surviving parent at that point, or siblings. But I only 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:16.720 bring that up to say it's not only that each 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.840 family is different, it's also that the different relationships family. 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:25.000 So parent to child is different than sibling to sibling, 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.800 spouse to spouse, partner to partner, The relationship between the 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:34.160 adult person and her parents. They're all very different dynamics. 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:37.760 The one between the parent and the child, especially when 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:42.200 you're still talking about school age child is so defined 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:48.080 by an obligation to protect them and to advance their 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:51.040 own interests. Right, that's what you're there for. You're trying 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:54.760 to make every single decision based on what's best for them. 0:21:56.080 --> 0:22:00.919 And there's no question that Marla and John that's what 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:03.720 they were doing, right. They were determining that this is 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:07.280 what is best for their kids. Somebody else can say, 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:09.600 this is not what's going to be best for my kid. 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:15.040 When my kid HiT's sixteen or whatever age, it's just 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:18.600 not going to be good for them because I'm not 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:21.119 going to be myself and they need to know why. 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:25.119 Except Marlow seems that it seems that she was able 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:30.520 to be herself for a very long time, way longer 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:34.440 than she was given to live. When she receives her 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:36.919 diagnosis that her cancer had metastasized. 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:38.679 Yeah a thousand days. 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:41.879 Yeah, a thousand days, and then she lived like something 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:43.000 like eight or nine years. 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:48.000 It's stunning. Right, So again I keep like wanting to 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:51.840 have or this one thing. Oh, it's not a failing 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:54.760 if you can't live your life like marlat did. She 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:58.920 had a certain character and constitution and discipline, maybe in. 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:01.320 Part because she was always athlete. 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:04.280 And she know exactly how she wanted things to go 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:07.200 for her girls, and she could do it well. 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:10.920 It's interesting because the whole, the whole family. I mean, 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:12.800 that only works if it if it works in a 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:15.760 whole family, right, And and it struck me that John 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:19.639 and Marla were very committed to the same kind of 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:23.040 you know, his word was lifestyle, and you know, the 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:27.359 same kind of child rearing and the and the same hopes, 0:23:27.880 --> 0:23:32.040 particular hopes for the kind of track that you know, 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:37.320 each of their daughters would be on. And they lived 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:42.879 in a very sort of pressure cooker kind of suburban 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:46.639 community that I know, well, Scarsdale and that whole area 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:49.760 of you know, Westchester, you know, bedroom community of New 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:55.800 York City, very high octane and you know, not every 0:23:56.000 --> 0:24:04.000 kid is high octane. And John and Marla had three daughters, 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:07.720 all of whom were high octane, by which I mean, 0:24:07.920 --> 0:24:12.359 you know, really sort of superachievers and incredibly athletic and 0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:17.879 inherited Marla's athleticism and you know, very good students and 0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:21.400 you know, all three of them played Division I sports 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:25.320 at create schools. You know, this is no small thing, 0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:32.240 and I think that those shared values were shared, it seems, 0:24:33.160 --> 0:24:34.920 by the whole family. 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:37.119 We'll be right back. 0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:44.400 I want to go back to the language of retrospective 0:24:44.440 --> 0:24:49.240 moral judgment. So that term is very important in thinking 0:24:49.280 --> 0:24:53.959 about the ethics of something that has occurred in the past, 0:24:55.119 --> 0:25:01.280 and it addresses the question of whether all more is relative, 0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:05.199 or whether, in fact there is some enduring features of 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:08.359 the moral life that can be used to think about 0:25:09.119 --> 0:25:13.080 conduct in the past as well as in the present. 0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:16.520 I think in the case of interpersonal decisions like this, 0:25:16.800 --> 0:25:24.600 family decisions deeply unique to the person, the partners, the children, 0:25:25.200 --> 0:25:32.520 that it's a very different dynamic. And we're talking about 0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:35.280 the kinds of ethics that show up in the ethicistem 0:25:35.320 --> 0:25:37.720 the New York Times. Right, it's sort of you know, 0:25:37.800 --> 0:25:40.640 my girlfriend is lying to me, what should I do? 0:25:40.920 --> 0:25:44.240 Kind of thing here. 0:25:44.400 --> 0:25:51.159 I just would caution everybody both to avoid judging Marla 0:25:51.280 --> 0:25:58.320 and John as moral giants, right who managed to do 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:03.120 what most of us couldn't do, or as morally flawed 0:26:03.160 --> 0:26:08.080 persons for failing to share the reality of Marla's condition 0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:11.920 with their children as the children got older and could 0:26:12.000 --> 0:26:17.359 have integrated it. I don't think this is a context 0:26:17.400 --> 0:26:19.800 in which we can look at their lives and draw 0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:24.880 any conclusions about the rightness or wrongness of what they 0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:28.040 did for their family, or any inferences for what we 0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:31.040 should be doing in our own families. If tragedy like 0:26:31.119 --> 0:26:33.840 this strikes while we still are taking care of kids, 0:26:33.840 --> 0:26:37.119 I just don't think it works that way here. Now. 0:26:37.480 --> 0:26:39.679 When I say that, I don't mean that you can't 0:26:39.760 --> 0:26:46.119