1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 2: We decided not to tell the kids. Marlon knew that 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 2: once our three daughters understood that their mother had been 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,479 Speaker 2: given one thousand days to live, they'd start counting. They 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 2: would not be able to enjoy school friends, their teams 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 2: for birthday parties. They'd be watching too closely how she looked, moved, 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 2: acted eight or didn't. Marla wanted her daughters to stay children, unburdened, 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 2: confident that tomorrow would look like yesterday. We threw everything 9 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 2: at her, disease lectures, research, involvement in cancer organizations, yoga, meditation, 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 2: teas and soups. She even went to a storefront heuer 11 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 2: who lit incense, read her palm, and led her in prayer. 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 2: He declared her a badass because of her restorative powers. 13 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 2: It was a nickname that I promoted with all of 14 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: her doctors and nurses because it was not only hopeful 15 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 2: but true. She didn't just by time, she cheated it, 16 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 2: squeeze months and years out of it. Marla was a 17 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: statistical frea conaboration and outlier. One thousand days landed firmly 18 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 2: in our rearview mirror. 19 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 3: That's John Melman. John is a New York City based 20 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 3: real estate executive, and this is a story of a 21 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 3: devoted husband and wife making a painful choice to keep 22 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 3: a shared secret from their children, a complex and challenging 23 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 3: decision made in the name of love. I'm Danny Shapiro 24 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 3: and this is a special bonus episode of Family Secrets. 25 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 3: Joining me to talk about a show we recorded way 26 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 3: back in season two of Family Secrets is the wise 27 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 3: and thoughtful doctor Ruth Fayden. Ruth is the founder of 28 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 3: the Johns Hopkins Berman Institute of Bioethics and the Philip 29 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 3: Franklin Waggly Professor of Biomedical Ethics at Johns Hopkins. Today, 30 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 3: we'll be discussing The Loving Choice. I hope you'll go 31 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 3: back to season two in the feed and listen to 32 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 3: this heart wrenching and profoundly moving human story. Ruth, thank 33 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 3: you so much for joining me in conversation on Family Secrets. 34 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 4: Of course, my pleasure. 35 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: So the episode that I asked you to listen to, 36 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 3: given your area of expertise as a bioethicist, is The 37 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 3: Loving Choice. And it's one of those episodes that has 38 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 3: continued to haunt me even after I've now recorded ninety 39 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 3: of these episodes. 40 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 5: Oh my goodness. 41 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd like to start with what most stood out 42 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 3: for you as you were listening. 43 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 5: Well, I think what most stood out for me was 44 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 5: the intensity of this woman's love for her children. I 45 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 5: just think it's overwhelming what Marla did in order to 46 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 5: ensure that her children have as regular childhood and adolescence. 47 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 4: As they could possibly have. That's pretty stunning. Yeah. 48 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 3: The Loving Choice the title of the episode, which comes 49 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 3: from John Melman's description of what he and his wife 50 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 3: Marla chose to do, the decision that they made to 51 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:26,959 Speaker 3: keep the extent of her illness from their daughters. When 52 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 3: I was preparing to record the initial episode, if I 53 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 3: remember thinking about all the different reasons why a choice 54 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 3: like that might be made, and I was remembering something 55 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 3: that you said to me when you and I first 56 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 3: met a number of years ago, And it's an ethical term, 57 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 3: which was retrospective moral judgment. You know, in stories like these, 58 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 3: where illnesses are kept either from the person themselves or 59 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 3: from children, they seem more common back a generation or two, 60 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 3: when you know, people really believed wholeheartedly that it was 61 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 3: just better not to know, that it was better to 62 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 3: keep secrets. And I mean that's less that's less true 63 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 3: today from an ethical perspective, where does that reside? 64 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 5: Well, I want to draw and a really sharp distinction 65 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 5: between professional medical ethics and personal interpersonal ethics. So you're 66 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:45,799 Speaker 5: absolutely correct that the era in which it was thought 67 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 5: best for physicians to keep diagnoses from patients it has 68 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 5: long left us. It's now considered completely inappropriate for doctors 69 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 5: and nurses to make judgments about what patients should know 70 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 5: about their own health, and even in context in which 71 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 5: they have to deliver devastating news, they know they have 72 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 5: an obligation to do so, and although it can often 73 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 5: be wrenching and sometimes deeply damaging, there really is no 74 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 5: other alternative except to inform the person about the status 75 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 5: of their health so that they can make whatever decisions 76 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 5: they want to make about how they want to live 77 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 5: their lives in the face of whatever diagnosis they've received. 78 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 5: It's a separate set of issues, whether under what conditions, 79 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 5: into whom the person who's received the devastating diagnosis, or 80 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 5: at least the challenging diagnosis which it was from Marlin 81 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 5: in the beginning, it sounds like from John's telling that 82 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 5: she refused to accept that it was devastating for a 83 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 5: very long time, and she turned out to be right. 84 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 4: Right. 85 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 5: But it's a totally separate kind of ethics question what 86 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 5: people owe to those they love about their diagnosis right, 87 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 5: and that becomes deeply personal. Now it is much a 88 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 5: matter of in the case of children, what is in 89 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 5: the children's best interest to know and when than it 90 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 5: is of anything else. And arguably nobody was better positioned 91 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 5: than Marla and John to make that call. It sounds 92 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 5: like they didn't deny Marla's illness or the fact that 93 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 5: she had the diagnosis of breast cancer. They shared part 94 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 5: of the story. I think you said at one point 95 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 5: in the episode. 96 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 4: It was partial truths that they gave the girls. 97 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 5: Right, and it seems to me an eminently reasonable decision. Now, 98 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 5: when you raise the issue of retrospective moral judgment, I 99 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 5: certainly don't feel positioned to look back at Marla and 100 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 5: John's story and in any sense criticized them for what 101 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 5: they decided to share and what they chose not to share, 102 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 5: and when they decided to share in the end that 103 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 5: there really was no hope. It's heartbreaking. I think the 104 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 5: mistake would be to generalize from their experience to what 105 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 5: parents ought to do in all cases, in all families. 106 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 5: It sounds, from John's telling, as if the strategy that 107 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 5: they adopted was, first of all, the only thing that 108 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 5: was possible for Marla, that's how she wanted to live 109 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 5: her life, and also I think actually worked well for 110 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 5: her girls. It sounds as if they did well. I mean, 111 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 5: by John's telling, they had a pretty successful slash normal adolescence. 112 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 5: The youngest one didn't quite make it to college before 113 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 5: her mom passed away, but the other two did, And 114 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 5: I don't think they ever questioned, right the intensity of 115 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 5: their mother's love for them or her hopes for their future. 116 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 5: But whether this would work in another family, with other 117 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 5: children and other parents, I don't think you can go there. So, 118 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 5: in keeping with the theme of the podcast, what works 119 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 5: as a secret for some people would be a disaster 120 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 5: to keep secret in other families. It seems to have 121 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 5: worked here. 122 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 4: I hope it. 123 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's such an important and interesting distinction, the idea 124 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 3: that in any given family, you're dealing with a constellation 125 00:08:53,559 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 3: of human beings who have very specific needs and psychologies 126 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 3: and histories, and that these kinds of choices are so 127 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 3: deeply deeply personal. The way that John describes her profound 128 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 3: need for her kids to see her living normally and 129 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 3: to show them strength and resilience. And I remember when 130 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 3: I interviewed John, and you know, I don't I've done 131 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 3: so many of these interviews at this point that I 132 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 3: often don't remember, you know, details or where I was 133 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 3: or exactly at what point it was in my own life. 134 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 3: But I do remember this one because I interviewed John 135 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 3: in person in New York City because I was living 136 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 3: there because my own husband was sick with cancer, and 137 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 3: you know, we were very much in the phase that 138 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 3: Marla so did not want to be in of people 139 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 3: bringing lasagnas and castle roles and the thing, the thing 140 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 3: that John talked about, you know, with with a sense 141 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 3: of humor. But she didn't want, as he said, the pity, 142 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 3: and she didn't want the whispers, and she wanted her 143 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 3: daughters to be protected from that. And I, I really 144 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 3: I felt for them so much, and you know, for 145 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 3: him in recounting the story so much, because there is 146 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 3: something that can happen when normalcy suddenly or you know 147 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 3: the rest of the world is kind of you know, 148 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 3: just bopping along, and and suddenly we are on the 149 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 3: other side of that divide that separates the lucky from 150 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 3: the unlucky, or the well from the unwell. 151 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 5: Absolutely, and I want to underscore because there is a 152 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 5: risk as we talk about this, for other people listening 153 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 5: to think this is the only way to handle a 154 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 5: devastating diagnosis with your children, and I'm failing because I 155 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 5: can't do it. So there's that worry I have to 156 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 5: Marla was who she was, right, the kind of person 157 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 5: with a kind of strength. There's also a different kind 158 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 5: of strength that manifests itself in bringing your especially as 159 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 5: they got older, children along with you, and thankfully I 160 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 5: have not had to do that with my own kids. 161 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 5: I don't know which way I would play it, but 162 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 5: I wouldn't want to judge someone who just says, at 163 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 5: a certain point, I really think it's I can't hide 164 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 5: it anymore. She reached that point only at the very 165 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 5: end Marla did, right. I would think a lot of 166 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 5: people reach it sooner, right where they just say, I 167 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 5: can't hide this anymore. I'm exhausted, I feel shitty. I 168 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 5: can't be the upbeat, perky parent I've always been. I 169 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 5: can't mother them the way I would like to, and 170 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 5: I don't want them to suspect or think that it's 171 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 5: about them, and so I need to tell them why. 172 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 5: I need to tell them why I am not the 173 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 5: same kind of ammy what six months ago or whenever? Right, 174 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 5: it sounds like by John's telling that Marlow was able 175 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 5: to do this for years, right, somehow was able for 176 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 5: many years to conduct yourself in ways that never raised 177 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 5: worries among her children. They knew she had a disease 178 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 5: and she was being treated, and that was it. 179 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 4: Right. 180 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 5: It's pretty amazing. But not everybody can do this, and 181 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 5: it's not necessarily good for every family. I guess if 182 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 5: I had a message, it would be that there's a 183 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 5: related thing too that I wanted to bring up as 184 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 5: I was listening to talk about your own experience with 185 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 5: your husband very briefly just back there, and that is 186 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 5: there is this a little bit, and I think John 187 00:12:55,080 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 5: references it. There's a kind of voyeurism that is actually troubling, 188 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 5: if not outright offensive. Right, when people find out that 189 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 5: someone has a serious illness, oh, they can't wait to 190 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 5: contribute to the meal train, and they want to come 191 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 5: visit and they want to know the details of the 192 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 5: illness and how is it going and how is the 193 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 5: treatment going in now? It's not necessarily anybody's business, and 194 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 5: a part of it is this I want to know 195 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 5: because I want to make sure that I can kind 196 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 5: of find things in my own life that will make 197 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 5: me feel better that this is not going to happen 198 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 5: to me. Right, So you know, in this case less 199 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 5: likely with the b r c A one and two gene. 200 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 5: But how can I reassure myself that this is happening 201 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 5: to Marla, but it's not going to happen to me. 202 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 3: It's well meaning people who don't realize that that is 203 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 3: what they're doing. But it seems like it's a kind 204 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 3: of human impulse because it's so pervasive that you know, 205 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 3: that feeling of you know, well, was there a family 206 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 3: history or did this person smoke? Or finding an narrative 207 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 3: that will draw a bright line between this unfortunate and 208 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 3: terrible and tragic experience and you know, my life and 209 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 3: why that's not going to happen to me exactly. 210 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 5: And that's exhausting for the person who's got the illness. 211 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 5: It's like, excuse me, right, I'm dealing with this. It's 212 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 5: hard enough. I don't need you prying into the details. 213 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 5: Of the origins of my illness or my prognosis or 214 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 5: any number of things. I've gone through this with friends, 215 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 5: you know, over the years, where let's say, you know, 216 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 5: you're the trusted friend that knows the details, and then 217 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 5: all these other people who want to know, So, what. 218 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 4: Did she tell you? 219 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 5: Why? 220 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 4: Not of your business? 221 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 5: Honestly, right, And I think some of that sounds like 222 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 5: some of that was operating for Marla. 223 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: And fra John. 224 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 5: They did not want to be caught up in that dynamic, 225 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 5: and they certainly didn't want their kids to be caught 226 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 5: up in that kind of dynamic either, and so they 227 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 5: you know, they chose the path they chose, and it's 228 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 5: it's tragic, like in the context of you know, Marla's 229 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 5: untimely death to say it worked for them, but it 230 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 5: worked for that. 231 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 3: It should also be said for people listening to us 232 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 3: who haven't gone back and listened to that episode yet 233 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 3: that Marla was someone who, after having had her ovaries 234 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 3: removed after six rounds of chemotherapy after a bilateral mass ectomy, 235 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 3: was back out running four or five days a week, 236 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 3: and that was after her first diagnosis. Considered that a 237 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 3: speed bump, you know, and going on you know, adventurous 238 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 3: sports driven vacations, and you know, just that was the 239 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 3: kind of particular superhuman quality that she had and that 240 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 3: John uh So clearly really loved in her. 241 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, you've said it so well. And I think lots 242 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 5: of people after that first diagnosis, especially after she's done 243 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 5: everything she can to prevent a recurrence, might reach the 244 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 5: same conclusion about how to handle it with their kids. 245 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 5: They're hoping it's not going to come back. There's no 246 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 5: reason to scare the kids into thinking it might come back, right, 247 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 5: the kids are younger then also when this begins, but 248 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 5: when it does recur and when her prognosis becomes more dire, 249 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 5: some people would at that point say they're older, right, 250 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 5: and it's time to bring them in. And yeah, I 251 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 5: was thinking about this as I was listening to the episode, 252 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 5: and I appreciate that not all your readers would have 253 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 5: listened the way I did, which was just before a 254 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 5: conversation to thinking about to some extent, this is outside 255 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 5: the realm of ethics and more in the realm of 256 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 5: family therapy and family support. It seems so critical. Now, 257 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 5: maybe this couple didn't need it, but lots of couples 258 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 5: need help. Understandably trying to figure out for their families 259 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 5: with their children at whatever ages the children are at 260 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 5: the time when the really bad diagnosis comes through, So, 261 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 5: what are the options? How should we play this right 262 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 5: with our five year old or a fifteen year old. 263 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 5: And so it's in part a matter. 264 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 4: Of sort of personal ethics. It's the sort of ethics. 265 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 5: Of your family, how you've conducted your family until then. 266 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 5: And it's also i think largely a parent or parents 267 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 5: in this case, trying to figure out what's in the 268 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 5: best interests of our kids in this family at this 269 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 5: point in their lives. 270 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. 271 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 3: No, that's so well put. And it also strikes me 272 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 3: that it goes against the grain of what it is 273 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 3: to be a parent to have to do or to 274 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 3: contemplate telling your child something so devastating. All we want 275 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 3: to do is protect our children, and it brings you 276 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 3: right up to the edge of the awareness that, of 277 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 3: course we can't. You know, we can't protect them from 278 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 3: bad breakups. We can't protect them from a divorce if 279 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 3: we get divorce. We can't protect them from our own mortality. 280 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 3: We can't protect them from their mortality. We can't protect 281 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 3: them from the state of the world, and to have 282 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 3: to make that choice, whatever that choice is to tell 283 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 3: to not tell, whatever it is is coming from such 284 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 3: a primal place, no matter how we might you know, 285 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 3: intellectualize it or figure out, you know. I think John 286 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 3: used the word script a couple of times. 287 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 5: Yes, one of the things I kept thinking about when 288 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 5: I was listening to John. 289 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 4: Realizing that the whole discussion. 290 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 5: Conversation that the two of you had was around how 291 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 5: they only shared part of the truth with their girls 292 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 5: until the very end. I kept wondering about their parents. 293 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 5: So again, it's deeply personal. You know, what's your relationship 294 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 5: with your parents, your in laws, right, how close are 295 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 5: you to them? But I would imagine you have a 296 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 5: different relationship with obviously your parents than you do to 297 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 5: your children, and all together different moral obligations. You were saying, 298 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 5: how probably the most defining characteristic of parenting, which we 299 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 5: all fail at, is the impulse to protect their children, 300 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 5: to make their lives perfect, right, to try to keep 301 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 5: them from never having to eat alone in the lunch room, 302 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 5: right or never you're in cypergollying, or never be excluded 303 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,239 Speaker 5: from the birthday party, or not have anybody to go 304 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 5: to homecoming with or whatever. We want to keep all 305 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 5: of those kind of minor, but at the time, you know, 306 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 5: very difficult, challenging experiences for our kids. To a middlemum, 307 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 5: we want to fix it and we certainly don't want 308 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 5: to have to tell our kids something as awful as 309 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 5: they're about to lose us, right, no matter how old 310 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 5: they are, but especially when they're school aged. But with parents, 311 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 5: it's a different kind of relationship. Their job still is 312 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 5: to protect you. And even though you're a grown up 313 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 5: and an adult and you have your own kids, and again, 314 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 5: every family is different. Every relationship between an adult child 315 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 5: and their parents or their in laws is different. That 316 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 5: I could see parents being deeply hurt, which is something 317 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 5: else you need to take account of, right, deeply hurt 318 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 5: if the diagnosis is with help from them. And I 319 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 5: have no idea what they did, obviously what John and 320 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 5: Marla did with her. I guess they each have one 321 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 5: surviving parent at that point, or siblings. But I only 322 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 5: bring that up to say it's not only that each 323 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 5: family is different, it's also that the different relationships family. 324 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 5: So parent to child is different than sibling to sibling, 325 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 5: spouse to spouse, partner to partner, The relationship between the 326 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 5: adult person and her parents. They're all very different dynamics. 327 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 5: The one between the parent and the child, especially when 328 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 5: you're still talking about school age child is so defined 329 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 5: by an obligation to protect them and to advance their 330 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 5: own interests. Right, that's what you're there for. You're trying 331 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 5: to make every single decision based on what's best for them. 332 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 5: And there's no question that Marla and John that's what 333 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 5: they were doing, right. They were determining that this is 334 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 5: what is best for their kids. Somebody else can say, 335 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 5: this is not what's going to be best for my kid. 336 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 5: When my kid HiT's sixteen or whatever age, it's just 337 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 5: not going to be good for them because I'm not 338 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 5: going to be myself and they need to know why. 339 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 3: Except Marlow seems that it seems that she was able 340 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 3: to be herself for a very long time, way longer 341 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 3: than she was given to live. When she receives her 342 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 3: diagnosis that her cancer had metastasized. 343 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 5: Yeah a thousand days. 344 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, a thousand days, and then she lived like something 345 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 3: like eight or nine years. 346 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 5: It's stunning. Right, So again I keep like wanting to 347 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 5: have or this one thing. Oh, it's not a failing 348 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 5: if you can't live your life like marlat did. She 349 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 5: had a certain character and constitution and discipline, maybe in. 350 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 4: Part because she was always athlete. 351 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 5: And she know exactly how she wanted things to go 352 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 5: for her girls, and she could do it well. 353 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 3: It's interesting because the whole, the whole family. I mean, 354 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 3: that only works if it if it works in a 355 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 3: whole family, right, And and it struck me that John 356 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 3: and Marla were very committed to the same kind of 357 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 3: you know, his word was lifestyle, and you know, the 358 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 3: same kind of child rearing and the and the same hopes, 359 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 3: particular hopes for the kind of track that you know, 360 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 3: each of their daughters would be on. And they lived 361 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 3: in a very sort of pressure cooker kind of suburban 362 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 3: community that I know, well, Scarsdale and that whole area 363 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 3: of you know, Westchester, you know, bedroom community of New 364 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 3: York City, very high octane and you know, not every 365 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 3: kid is high octane. And John and Marla had three daughters, 366 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 3: all of whom were high octane, by which I mean, 367 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 3: you know, really sort of superachievers and incredibly athletic and 368 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 3: inherited Marla's athleticism and you know, very good students and 369 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 3: you know, all three of them played Division I sports 370 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 3: at create schools. You know, this is no small thing, 371 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 3: and I think that those shared values were shared, it seems, 372 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 3: by the whole family. 373 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 4: We'll be right back. 374 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 5: I want to go back to the language of retrospective 375 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 5: moral judgment. So that term is very important in thinking 376 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 5: about the ethics of something that has occurred in the past, 377 00:24:55,119 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 5: and it addresses the question of whether all more is relative, 378 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 5: or whether, in fact there is some enduring features of 379 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 5: the moral life that can be used to think about 380 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 5: conduct in the past as well as in the present. 381 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 5: I think in the case of interpersonal decisions like this, 382 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 5: family decisions deeply unique to the person, the partners, the children, 383 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 5: that it's a very different dynamic. And we're talking about 384 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 5: the kinds of ethics that show up in the ethicistem 385 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 5: the New York Times. Right, it's sort of you know, 386 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 5: my girlfriend is lying to me, what should I do? 387 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 4: Kind of thing here. 388 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 5: I just would caution everybody both to avoid judging Marla 389 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 5: and John as moral giants, right who managed to do 390 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 5: what most of us couldn't do, or as morally flawed 391 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 5: persons for failing to share the reality of Marla's condition 392 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 5: with their children as the children got older and could 393 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 5: have integrated it. I don't think this is a context 394 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 5: in which we can look at their lives and draw 395 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 5: any conclusions about the rightness or wrongness of what they 396 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 5: did for their family, or any inferences for what we 397 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 5: should be doing in our own families. If tragedy like 398 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 5: this strikes while we still are taking care of kids, 399 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 5: I just don't think it works that way here. Now. 400 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 5: When I say that, I don't mean that you can't 401 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 5: judge or shouldn't judge parental behavior. In many cases, you 402 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 5: can look at, you know, the way a parent is 403 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 5: treating a child, and it's totally appropriate. That is unconscionable, right, 404 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 5: that's emotional abuse. God forbid, that's physical abuse. 405 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:57,959 Speaker 2: Right. 406 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 5: No one should parents a child in this way. But 407 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 5: we have to be really circumspect because we don't know 408 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 5: right what is going on. I mean, I'm sure that 409 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 5: I'm not alone in having been, say in an airport 410 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 5: lounge meeting area and seeing some mother yell at their 411 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 5: kid and cringe, you know, and want to go in 412 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 5: and rescue that child, and you have to hold back 413 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 5: because you don't have any authority, any moral authority to 414 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 5: intervene unless you really thought the child was, you know, 415 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 5: at serious risk of serious harm. So you know, Danny, 416 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 5: one of the risks with keeping secrets, and you know 417 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 5: this probably better than anyone is you are my expert 418 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 5: on all thanks secrets, is that you are often less 419 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 5: successful in keeping the secret than you think. More and 420 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 5: the people who love you, especially in the context of 421 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 5: a close, clearly devoted family, is that the girls at 422 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 5: some point started to get suspicious or concerned. And what 423 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 5: I couldn't tell in listening to John was whether that 424 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 5: was ever a really big problem, either for him and 425 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,239 Speaker 5: Marla or for any of their daughters. But there is 426 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 5: that caution, right that, even though you may think that 427 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 5: you're doing a great job keeping this secret and revealing 428 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 5: only the parts that you think are compatible with your 429 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 5: children having a let's just call it a normal adolescence, 430 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 5: kids are incredibly emotionally intuitive in many cases, not all kids, 431 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 5: but many kids, and especially about their parents. So whether 432 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 5: it's a marriage that isn't going well or someone's health 433 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 5: isn't going well, you just have to look out for 434 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 5: the possibility that the children may be suspecting more than 435 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 5: you think, and then that raises trust issues and confidence 436 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 5: issues for the children and for the relationship. Now, I 437 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 5: have no way of knowing from your conversation with John 438 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 5: whether that was ever a serious concern, but I'm guessing 439 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 5: that if you were to talk to a family therapist 440 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 5: about how to handle a very bad diagnosis of a 441 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 5: mother or father with adolescent children in the house, that 442 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 5: they're going to be pointing out the importance of staying 443 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 5: at tunes to the possibility that the kids are starting 444 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 5: to get anxious, starting to distrust the messages that they're 445 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 5: getting from their parents, and of course you don't want 446 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 5: that to happen. So nothing is straightforward and nothing is 447 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 5: simple about the you know, the horrible situation is what 448 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 5: did John say that a shit sandwich or something craft sandwich, 449 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 5: crap sandwich? Right? Yeah, I mean this family was dealt 450 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 5: a horrible you know, a horrible set of cards, right, 451 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 5: And there's no great way to deal with this. 452 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 3: And I think one of the things you've been saying, 453 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 3: Roth is that there's no right way of dealing with this. 454 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 5: I don't think so. I think there could be some 455 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 5: wrong ways of doing it. I think there could be 456 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 5: some very wrong ways of handling this, in ways that 457 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 5: really make the whole dynamic and tragedy even more traumatic 458 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 5: for the children than it already is. You definitely have 459 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 5: a primary obligation to advance the interests of your children, 460 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,719 Speaker 5: like that's your biggest moral obligation as a parent. You 461 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 5: also have an obligation to love them, which people think 462 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 5: is really odd to say that you could have a 463 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 5: moral duty to love. But I believe you have a 464 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 5: moral duty to love your children to the extent that 465 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 5: you can, right, and also to the extent that protecting 466 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 5: them doesn't weaken their capacity to deal with what life 467 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 5: will hand them as they get older. Right, But you 468 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 5: also have the duty to treat your children with respect, 469 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 5: especially as they get older. Right, So, as your children 470 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 5: become middle school and later adolescent, their own sense of self, 471 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 5: their choices, their autonomy matters too, right, And in respecting 472 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 5: your children, this is where honesty comes in. You want 473 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 5: to be honest with your children. You want to give 474 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 5: them the opportunity to make choices on their own, within limits, 475 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 5: so that they can learn how to do that. And 476 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 5: you want to create a relationship in which they can 477 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 5: trust you and you can trust them. So through all 478 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 5: of this, Marla and John had to balance the obligation 479 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 5: to protect your children with the obligation to respect your children. 480 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 5: I mean, at some point Marla knows, right, it's a 481 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 5: matter of days, it's a matter of weeks, it's a 482 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 5: matter of months. But at some point she gives up, 483 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 5: even with her superhuman determination, there's a point where it 484 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 5: sounds like she recognizes there's no more beating the odds, right, 485 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 5: and at that point she turns from protecting them because 486 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 5: that you can't anymore right, to respecting them and bringing 487 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 5: them in to the conversation. 488 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 3: And the way that John describes the you know, the 489 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,479 Speaker 3: very end of Marla's life and the week before she dies, 490 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 3: gathering each one of their daughters, and almost it sounded 491 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 3: like a sacred holy thing in some way, you know, 492 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,479 Speaker 3: not his word at all mine, but blessing them in 493 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 3: a way with her hopes for them and her desires 494 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 3: for them. And he describes it as incredible, eloquent, as 495 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 3: if she was reading off a teleprompter. He said, But meanwhile, 496 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 3: she's on death's door and her eyes are closed, and 497 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 3: she's just channeling something. And it just seemed like there 498 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 3: was so much pent up and stored up love and 499 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 3: wisdom and desire there to give her daughters everything that 500 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 3: she had. 501 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, without doubt, without doubt. 502 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 5: And when he got to that part of the story, 503 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 5: I was speechless trying to imagine where the strength and 504 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 5: the wisdom came from for Marlowe to be able to 505 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 5: do that. 506 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 4: People talk about leaving their. 507 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 5: Children values testaments as opposed to you last will and testaments. 508 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 5: Here's who's getting the necklace and who's getting the house 509 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 5: kind of thing. It's how do you leave your children 510 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 5: with a script for how to live your life when 511 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 5: I'm not here? And it sounds like Marla provided them 512 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 5: with something like that, Here's what I wish for you 513 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 5: when I'm not here anymore. And I'm guessing she was 514 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 5: very insightful about each of her three each of her 515 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 5: three girls. 516 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 4: It's a tragedy. 517 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 3: Ruth Faidon, thank you so much for joining me to 518 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 3: talk about this really heartbreaking and remarkable story and to 519 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 3: offer your thoughts which are so valuable and I think 520 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 3: will help so many people. 521 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 4: Danny, You're very kind. 522 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 5: It's totally my pleasure, and you're such a fan of 523 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 5: your work and so grateful that you're bringing these issues 524 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 5: to a wide audience 525 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 526 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.