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Speaker 1: Welcome to two percent. I'm your host, Michael Easter. In

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Speaker 1: today's episode is all about dogs, which is why I

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Speaker 1: have my best buddy Duke with me right here. So

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Speaker 1: Duke is a eight month old German short hair pointer.

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Speaker 1: He hangs out with me all day. He goes with

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Speaker 1: me everywhere. I have owned dogs my entire life and

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Speaker 1: I am an absolute and utter dog person. Love dogs.

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Speaker 1: So first off, we are going to talk to Sam Alima.

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Speaker 1: Sam is a Navy seal who is also a big

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Speaker 1: dog fanatic. And what's interesting about Sam is he writes

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Speaker 1: a lot at his substack called what Then about the

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Speaker 1: philosophy of dogs and how dogs can help us become

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Speaker 1: better humans and give us a philosophy of living day

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Speaker 1: to day. After that, we're gonna talk to doctor Nancy

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Speaker 1: g She is a researcher who studies the physical and

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Speaker 1: mental health benefits of dog ownership. So she's gonna get

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Speaker 1: into all the details about why owning a dog is

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Speaker 1: really really good for you. So with all that said,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get into the episode. We're gonna let Duke

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Speaker 1: go off and chase a squirrel or whatever he's gonna do.

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Speaker 1: After this, we've got a good episode though, So let's

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Speaker 1: get into it all right. Now, we're gonna bring on

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Speaker 1: Sam Alimo. Samlimo is a dog lover first and foremost.

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Speaker 1: He is a former Navy seal and then he got

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Speaker 1: his masters at Columbia and he now runs the what

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Speaker 1: then Substack, which is one of my favorite reads. And

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Speaker 1: on his what then Substack he writes a lot about

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Speaker 1: the philosophy of having a dog and what we all

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Speaker 1: can learn about living better from dogs. So let's bring

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Speaker 1: him on now. Sam, thanks for coming on the show.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Thank you. Michael.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're here to talk dog, so we obviously got

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Speaker 1: to start with you your priors. You have a dog.

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Speaker 1: Was his name? Is it a him?

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Speaker 3: It's a him, and it's a carson. He's a mutt.

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Speaker 3: We have no idea what he is. We just know

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Speaker 3: he's like ridiculously good looking. His shizzle jaw, the shape,

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Speaker 3: the colors, the eyes, the compact pause, everything about him awesome.

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Speaker 1: How big? Uh?

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Speaker 2: Sixty two pounds.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's a big guy. I've seen photos of him

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Speaker 1: on your substack. I was thinking you were going to say,

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Speaker 1: like forty five fifty.

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Speaker 2: Now he's lean, he's muscle, He gets a lot of rocking,

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Speaker 2: a lot of walking.

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Speaker 1: Awesome. When did you get him? So?

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Speaker 3: My girlfriend actually had him early and he and I

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Speaker 3: are first met twenty eighteen, so we've been together for

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Speaker 3: a while now.

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Speaker 1: Awesome. That's rad. Did you have dogs growing up?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I grew up.

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Speaker 3: We had a sheep dog. We had an Australian shepherd dog.

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Speaker 3: And then when I was I guess starting from middle school,

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Speaker 3: we had we had shit suos and like to this day,

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Speaker 3: there's still my favorite dog breed shit zoos.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're actually very sweet. You see. I feel like

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Speaker 1: people can see him and they kind of like, what

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Speaker 1: is It's this fu fou thing? But they're actually awesome.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, especially when they started apping, You're like what are

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Speaker 3: you doing? But then you realize the size of the

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Speaker 3: soul of a shitsu. So they're tiny. They don't know

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Speaker 3: how small they are. Like for how small they are,

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Speaker 3: they're literally bare knuckle fighters. They will take on any

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Speaker 3: dog ten times a size and they don't care. They

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Speaker 3: will throw down. So they're the most spirited dogs. They

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Speaker 3: have the most personality of any dog I've ever seen.

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Speaker 3: I love them my best friend. When I was a

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Speaker 3: kid growing up in Utah. He had a shitsu. His

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Speaker 3: name was Puddles.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna let you take a single guess why its

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Speaker 1: name was Puddles. But this dog would They lived on

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Speaker 1: this relatively busy road. It was like a thirty mile

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Speaker 1: an hour road, and this dog would chase cars and

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Speaker 1: just you ap at them and bite their tires. I

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Speaker 1: think it got hit five or six times, and then

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Speaker 1: finally on the seventh it all ended. But the dog

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Speaker 1: was like thirteen on that final one. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: dog was just bad ass.

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Speaker 3: That's relentless. You can't train that. That's by nature. The

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Speaker 3: shitsu is that way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is my road, bitch, Get off it. Awesome?

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Speaker 1: All right. So you're a former seal? Correct when did

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Speaker 1: you join? How old were you? I was.

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Speaker 3: Nineteen, and I wanted to be a seal since I

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Speaker 3: was fourteen, So that was like my five year preparation

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Speaker 3: before I actually got to sign the paper and make

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Speaker 3: it happen.

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Speaker 1: Why at fourteen did you want to become a seal?

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Speaker 1: What was it about that?

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Early in life I had a sort of awakening or

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Speaker 3: hammer strike, however you want to refer to it, where

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Speaker 3: I think I realized at a young age how short

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Speaker 3: life can be. And I felt, even at fourteen, like

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Speaker 3: I was on a trajectory that I didn't exactly author myself.

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Speaker 3: And I realized I had a choice right now. If

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Speaker 3: you can question everything to the point where you have

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Speaker 3: no idea what the point of life is at fourteen,

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Speaker 3: it means you have the innate to build it.

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Speaker 2: If you could break it down, you can build it up.

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Speaker 3: And I said, Okay, what's the most difficult thing I

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Speaker 3: can do that would get my mind and my body engaged.

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Speaker 3: So I did at that time, like a primitive Google search,

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Speaker 3: and I came up with Navy Seals.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know anybody in the military and knew nothing

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Speaker 2: about them.

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Speaker 3: I just said, that's it, and from that day forward,

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Speaker 3: every single day push ups, reading, swimming, running, rocking every day.

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Speaker 2: Then that was how I built my life.

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Speaker 1: That's awesome. The reading part is interesting. What prompted the

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Speaker 1: reading thing? Because I think most people would see seals

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Speaker 1: and then they do that initial Google and then they

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Speaker 1: click images and it's a photo selection or something. So

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Speaker 1: why the reading.

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Speaker 2: I think you'll find I think you know a lot

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Speaker 2: of the guys.

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Speaker 3: There's a particular draw to communities like that where it's

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Speaker 3: not just hey, I like to lift waists and drink beer.

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Speaker 3: It is the whole human effect. It's how do you

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Speaker 3: excel not just physiologically but psychologically. How do you excel emotionally?

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Speaker 3: How do you excel intellectually? Even the enlisted community and

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Speaker 3: the seal teams more than half have bachelor's degrees. That's

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Speaker 3: not normal. So you get a four year degree and

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Speaker 3: then you enlist in the military become a seal. It's

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Speaker 3: trying to max out that full spectrum of the human experience.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like that that feature of being I'll

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Speaker 1: use the word intellectual gets selected for in the process

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Speaker 1: of selection, where it's someone who has read, read a lot,

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Speaker 1: thought a lot, can maybe dissociate more with the physical

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Speaker 1: suffering that happens in the selection process and not get

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Speaker 1: basically tossed out by it or what.

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Speaker 2: That's a good question.

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Speaker 3: The intellectual was the best word I picked off the cuff.

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Speaker 2: I may not be the best word overall.

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Speaker 3: There's a difference between the intellectualism of multiple IBE league

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Speaker 3: degrees and the intellectualism of being acutely aware of your

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Speaker 3: presence and reality, of the working of your mind, of

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Speaker 3: your assumptions about your capacity to handle an extremely difficult situation,

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Speaker 3: about how you read the person you're in a fire

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Speaker 3: team with, about how you read the enemy, about how

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Speaker 3: you read intelligence.

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Speaker 2: And that is a super.

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Speaker 3: Mindfully engaged to tune whatever you want to call it,

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Speaker 3: sort of intellectualism that is one percent selected for deliberately.

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Speaker 3: It just so happens that the people who have that

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Speaker 3: capacity are also drawn to the world of books, the

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Speaker 3: world of ideas, and not so much schooling as they

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Speaker 3: are education. Schooling has often gone awry, but education almost

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Speaker 3: never goes wrong, and they generally in that direction.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. And you did tours in Afghanistan.

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Speaker 2: Right, I did a couple of tours.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how long were you over there?

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Speaker 2: Was there twenty ten, eleven, twelve, and thirteen?

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Speaker 1: Okay, And a lot of these places were you were

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Speaker 1: kind of in the middle of nowhere. These are like

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Speaker 1: pre state places.

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Speaker 3: Straight up pre state. And that's where kind of a

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Speaker 3: lot of my writing originated. It was a exposure to

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Speaker 3: to a legitimate pre state. Where I was, they didn't

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Speaker 3: think of themselves as Afghany. They thought of themselves as.

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Speaker 2: Part of their village. And the villages there were.

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Speaker 3: Maybe fifty people, and then you would have this mountainous

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Speaker 3: tribal land, and the mountains are like beautifully crisscross by

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Speaker 3: river valleys. So the mountains are like these stark brown,

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Speaker 3: reddish rock. And then in the middle in these river

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Speaker 3: valleys is a thin, muddy river and this lost green zone, almond, pomegranate, rice,

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Speaker 3: ancient crops, beautiful little little mud pathways going in and

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Speaker 3: out of them, the crisscross. And the people live in

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Speaker 3: that place with no electricity, there's no plumbing. Most of

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Speaker 3: them don't have vehicles. None of the roads are paved.

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Speaker 3: There's no cell phones, there's no cell coverage. It is

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Speaker 3: literally as pre state as it gets. If Alexander the

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Speaker 3: Great had set foot in that river valley, he would say, Wow,

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Speaker 3: nothing changed. It was a mind blowing experience and probably

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Speaker 3: the most beautiful place I've ever seen in my life,

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Speaker 3: because you can smell the air, but there was no pollution,

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Speaker 3: and at night there was no light pollution, so that

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Speaker 3: the milky way you literally reach out and like grab

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Speaker 3: the milky way, like every color of red and yellow

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Speaker 3: and white was. I called it like Middle Earth, like

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Speaker 3: it reminded me of some fantasy land that existed twenty

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Speaker 3: thousand years ago, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, So you get out of the sales and then

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Speaker 1: you went to business school at Columbia pretty quickly.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, So to make that happen, since I enlisted

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Speaker 3: when I was nineteen, I had to do my degree online,

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Speaker 3: So I did that while I was in. It's you

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Speaker 3: could do it if you don't sleep for four years

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Speaker 3: and work on the weekends. So I got my undergrad

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Speaker 3: degree online while I was in and then with about

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Speaker 3: a year left, I had to decide am I going

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Speaker 3: to stay at the military path or am I going

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Speaker 3: to get out? So I had the opportunity to go

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Speaker 3: to a different unit, the seal teams, or go to

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Speaker 3: Columbia to get my master's. And you know, the tours

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Speaker 3: were my tours were very kinetic. I think I checked

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Speaker 3: every boxed and wanted the check plus money. I didn't

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Speaker 3: want to and it was time to move on for

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Speaker 3: a new adventure.

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Speaker 2: And that was it.

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Speaker 1: Interesting. So you go from the world that is one

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Speaker 1: kinetic and two like Middle Earth into Manhattan? What was

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Speaker 1: that transition like, not to mention you're in a classroom.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was almost enough to break me.

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Speaker 3: Like I could admit that now and at the time

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Speaker 3: it was even harder, not just due to the transition

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Speaker 3: and that shift between two different worlds, but I was

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Speaker 3: also doing with like health stuff. I didn't realize it

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Speaker 3: took me a few years to figure that out, but

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Speaker 3: it was all our immune problems, which I'm still dealing

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Speaker 3: with today, and it's now kind of shaped my life

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Speaker 3: into a very narrow channel. And I made the mistake

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Speaker 3: of attributing much of the psychological and existential torment I

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Speaker 3: was going through to mental weakness as opposed to a

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Speaker 3: physiological problem.

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Speaker 2: So I made it worse.

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Speaker 3: I like literally cascaded it, and just that learning experience

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Speaker 3: itself was Yeah, it was good.

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Speaker 2: It was eye opening.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure Hewson was it. The ended up getting a dog.

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Speaker 3: It was a while, so Carson was probably the first

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Speaker 3: one I had since going to the military. But through

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Speaker 3: the military, my family dog, Gerdy Shitsu.

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Speaker 2: She was sort of like my anchor.

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Speaker 3: And it's difficult to describe.

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Speaker 2: You go, there's a great.

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Speaker 3: Ethnography on the marine Jaggers, the Norwegian Navy seals. I

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Speaker 3: got to work with a couple of guys that are

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Speaker 3: really good dudes, and the author embedded herself with the

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Speaker 3: marine Niggers and really summed up that world beautifully. She said,

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Speaker 3: Marine naggers and other soft or combat units, they live

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Speaker 3: on the margin. And then the margin is everything civilization

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Speaker 3: doesn't want to talk about or see. That's the violence,

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Speaker 3: that's the death, the dying, the killing, the suffering, the

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Speaker 3: training for war. Extremely hyper masculine environment, all all the time,

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Speaker 3: high risk. And when you experience that environment, I found

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Speaker 3: like an equal and opposite reaction to explore the other half.

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Speaker 3: And that was great to me, Like what is the

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Speaker 3: most absolute pure essence of just goodness and love and loyalty, unquestioned, unconditional.

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Speaker 3: So the deeper I got in the deployments, the deeper

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Speaker 3: I got in that change that was.

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Speaker 2: Occurring within me. She was like the anchor for me.

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Speaker 3: That was the thing that cut through both those worlds,

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Speaker 3: that primeval world I was living in a civilized world.

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Speaker 2: It no longer knew I had to deal with.

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Speaker 3: And she this thirteen pound shitsu who had eyes looking

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Speaker 3: in two different directions and extremely crooked teeth. She was

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Speaker 3: like a goddess to me, like she led me through

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Speaker 3: this thing. And she passed after my last tour, which

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Speaker 3: was absolutely gut wrenching, but like to this day, I

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Speaker 3: still feel it as if she's still here. That's the

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Speaker 3: power that these dogs can have.

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Speaker 1: Over us totally. I mean, when I got sober, one

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Speaker 1: of the first things I did was get a dog,

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Speaker 1: and this guy who was helping me get sober goes, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you're in the headspace for that,

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Speaker 1: but you know, maybe he'll help you. And I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you what, man like that dog. It gave me a

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Speaker 1: mission and it gave me something to focus on other

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Speaker 1: than myself. It was like, I can't drink again because

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Speaker 1: I got to take care of this dog, and that

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Speaker 1: like gave me a focus that sort of put me

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Speaker 1: on the right track. And I mean that dog literally

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Speaker 1: saved my life.

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Speaker 2: Did you did you grow up with dogs or was

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Speaker 2: that your first introduction?

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Speaker 1: That was my second dog. I grew up with the dog.

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Speaker 1: It's funny because you said your dog was an anchor.

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Speaker 1: I had this dog when I was a kid. He

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Speaker 1: was a Fox Terrier and my I don't know my dad,

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Speaker 1: he's ever been around, but my mom would travel about

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Speaker 1: a third of the year for work, so I had

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Speaker 1: this like rotating cast of nannies. As a kid. I'd

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Speaker 1: have a new nanny like every year or two. So

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Speaker 1: I was always having to figure out how to adapt

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Speaker 1: to all these different people. But I had this dog,

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Speaker 1: and that was like the that was the thing that

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Speaker 1: was always in the house, right, So that dog was

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Speaker 1: sort of like the anchor for me, like this thing's

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Speaker 1: always going to be here, and so we got we

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Speaker 1: got pretty tight too.

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Speaker 2: That's awesome. That's awesome.

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Speaker 1: I feel like dogs for people in the military who've

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Speaker 1: seen combat and come back and have any sort of struggle,

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Speaker 1: I feel like there's a lot of things that help,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like dogs are kind of a common thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And what's nice too is when you have a dog

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Speaker 3: over there, the military working dogs, they're just they're like

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Speaker 3: super dogs. They're like nieches over man, but in dog form.

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Speaker 3: But it's still nice, Like they're still therapeutic, even though

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Speaker 3: they could repeat the shreds in a fraction of a second.

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Speaker 3: They're just to have that like simple little four legged

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Speaker 3: being there that no matter what happens, no matter how

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Speaker 3: bad the firefight, no matter how boring the winner happens

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Speaker 3: to be, they're.

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Speaker 2: Just ready to go.

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Speaker 3: They're bright eyed, Like I could look at their eyes

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Speaker 3: and say, all right, what am I being weak about?

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Speaker 2: Let's go work out. This dog's ready to go.

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Speaker 3: It's like the perpetual motion machine, the perpetual happiness machine.

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Speaker 3: They're just like the ultimate consistent reminder, Hey, don't be

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Speaker 3: a loser, Like, hey, be a better human being at

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Speaker 3: all times.

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Speaker 2: It is the best thing in the world.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think that is that they give us

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Speaker 1: this reminder to be a better human being.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it'd be too far of a stretch

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Speaker 3: to say that there's been coevolution happening, and at a

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Speaker 3: deeper level than like science has been able to put

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Speaker 3: into words yet, Like, if you think about it, we

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Speaker 3: domesticated dogs before we domesticated wheat and figs and grapes

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Speaker 3: twenty thousand years ago or more. That's as far as

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Speaker 3: we know. It could even be longer back agricultures ten

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Speaker 3: thousand years.

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Speaker 2: So what does that mean.

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Speaker 3: It's like four hundred, five hundred human generations, five hundred

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Speaker 3: human generations. We can't even remember four generations ago. So

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Speaker 3: if we've been living with dogs for five hundred generations,

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Speaker 3: we got to think about what is the impact there?

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Speaker 4: Now?

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Speaker 3: When I point my finger, Carson knows what that means.

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Speaker 3: If I point my elbow, he doesn't know what that means.

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Speaker 3: So there's something that are going on. But that's like

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Speaker 3: merely physical. There's the existential component as well. And I

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Speaker 3: wrote a piece about this, and like the theory was

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Speaker 3: that you have this world. We live in this list world,

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Speaker 3: and it's built on maximization. It's built on speed, built

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Speaker 3: on hustle, it's built on grind. Get some have a goal,

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Speaker 3: execute go checkbox a checkbox. The dog doesn't give a

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Speaker 3: shit about any of that. The dog is pure minimalism.

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Speaker 3: The dog is here. It's slow, it's quality, it's depth,

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Speaker 3: and that dog I framed it as the dog is

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Speaker 3: literally a bridge to what it means to be an

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Speaker 3: ancient human being. Because while we're living in this world

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Speaker 3: surrounded by all this incredible stuff and not so incredible stuff,

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Speaker 3: that mutt with fur and blood and love is literally

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Speaker 3: right there and we look at it and remember twenty

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Speaker 3: thousand years ago. It cuts through all of it, immediate

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Speaker 3: reframing of everything. So they bring us back to the

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Speaker 3: era of minimalism. If we choose to listen to them.

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Speaker 3: It all comes back down to the choice. And you

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Speaker 3: look at the dog and it's like hey. At all times,

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Speaker 3: the dog's looking at me saying Carson looks at me

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Speaker 3: and says, you have a choice. You either you either

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Speaker 3: learn my lesson or you don't. It's on you. It

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Speaker 3: comes back on you at the end of the day.

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Speaker 3: One of the beautiful offerings of the dog totally.

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Speaker 1: And dogs aren't going to change their behavior. Whether it's

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Speaker 1: ten thousand years ago and we're setting up a camp

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Speaker 1: and starting to grow food, or it's right now and

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Speaker 1: we're in a big house and we're ordering uber eats,

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Speaker 1: it's all the same. Whereas as technologies progressed, we've sort

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Speaker 1: of been There's more, faster, stronger all the time, and

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Speaker 1: the dog is just psyched to be there no matter

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Speaker 1: what's going on, no matter who you are, no matter

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Speaker 1: what you look like.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes me think about the evolution we're going

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Speaker 3: through right now, which is incomparable. The evolution we're going

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Speaker 3: to go through in the next five years is probably

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Speaker 3: greater than what we went through in the past twenty

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Speaker 3: thousand years. As like to me, the dog is going

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Speaker 3: to be even more important in the next five years

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Speaker 3: than it was for twenty five thousand years. Like even

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Speaker 3: looking at like the movement of like transhumanism, which is

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Speaker 3: trying to merge the human with the AI, with the cloud, Like,

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Speaker 3: why do we even need these bodies anymore? Where we

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Speaker 3: can upload ourselves and live forever in a silicon world.

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Speaker 3: I don't really want that. You know, If we can't

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Speaker 3: have the dog by our side, are we still human? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: there's an argument to be made we're not anymore. We're

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Speaker 3: something completely different. So as long as we choose to

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Speaker 3: have a dog in our life, there's something innately human

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Speaker 3: about this non human animal. And trying to weigh with

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Speaker 3: those two different worlds and ways of being going to

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Speaker 3: be like in our lifetime, we're going to have to

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Speaker 3: answer that question.

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Speaker 1: On what then your substack, you've written a lot about dogs.

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Speaker 1: What even prompted that in the first place.

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Speaker 3: The big thinking I like to do is between the worlds,

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Speaker 3: the primeval the civilized, trying to bring the best of

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Speaker 3: the primeval here.

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Speaker 2: And part of that was the dog.

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Speaker 3: So it almost seems like it doesn't really fit that,

385
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Speaker 3: but it almost is at the core of it. And

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Speaker 3: there's a tendency with myself and I think a lot

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Speaker 3: of writers as well, to get lost in the world

388
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Speaker 3: of abstraction, lost in the world of idea and eventually

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Speaker 3: forget why you're writing.

390
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Speaker 2: In the first place.

391
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Speaker 3: And if your writing is not grounded in the concrete,

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Speaker 3: the daily and making you a more aware and grounded

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Speaker 3: human being.

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Speaker 2: What's the point?

395
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Speaker 3: And I easily get lost in an idea, like I'll

396
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Speaker 3: devote everything to an idea, and I'll forget that I'm here,

397
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Speaker 3: I'll forget to train, I'll forget everything.

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Speaker 2: And Carson doesn't let that happen. I got to be here.

399
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Speaker 3: So it's almost a spiritual practice to write about the dog.

400
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Speaker 3: Even before I started writing what, then, I would journal

401
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,120
Speaker 3: just one thing every day I was grateful for about Carson,

402
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:33,560
Speaker 3: and that immediately cut through drama at work, stress, worry, concern, fear,

403
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,919
Speaker 3: doubt literally grounded me in the moment, just as a

404
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Speaker 3: spiritual practice to write two hundred words on the dog.

405
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Speaker 3: And when I was doing what, then, I'm like, all right,

406
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Speaker 3: I can't just write about this, this hardcore stuff, these

407
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Speaker 3: hardcore thoughts and trying to figure out how to live

408
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Speaker 3: more optimally. And then what better way to ground that

409
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Speaker 3: than with a couple dog essays every few months?

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Speaker 2: And that that was the cause.

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Speaker 1: That's awesome. You had one where you talked about how

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Speaker 1: and you can correct me if I'm wrong on the

413
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Speaker 1: on the numbers. But Napoleon, through his campaigns managed to

414
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Speaker 1: kill about six million people total, which is like half

415
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Speaker 1: a percent of the world. So this guy is just ruthless,

416
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Speaker 1: does not give a damn. And then after a battle

417
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Speaker 1: he sees this dog and it changes something about him.

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Speaker 1: So tell us about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he murdered so many people. His battle fled to

420
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Speaker 3: the murder of so many people. On the death as

421
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 3: so many people, combatants, women, children, non combatant, males, elderly, young,

422
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Speaker 3: Like the mind can't even compute six million. You can't

423
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Speaker 3: see six million as a football stadium is what eighty thousand.

424
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Speaker 3: So six million people died. And he was remarkably cold

425
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Speaker 3: about that fact. He's like, I actually didn't feel anything

426
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Speaker 3: about that. I could watch ten thousand of my men

427
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Speaker 3: die in a matter of a few days.

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Speaker 2: It's a course of business. I had a mission to

429
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Speaker 2: attend to.

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Speaker 3: And then one day during his Italian campaign, he was

431
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Speaker 3: just I can almost see him, like sitting there in

432
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Speaker 3: his tent looking out at the battlefield, literally thousands of

433
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Speaker 3: corpses of his own men, of his enemy, the dead,

434
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Speaker 3: and the dying. And then he saw a dog sitting

435
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Speaker 3: next to one of the dead men, one of his

436
00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 3: dead men, and the dog was howling. And he literally

437
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 3: sat down and wrote down in his journal he had

438
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Speaker 3: sent thousands of men to their deaths with no problem whatsoever.

439
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,920
Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden he has this emotional rupture,

440
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 3: not because of the dead men, but.

441
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 2: Because of the dog.

442
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 3: Because all these people were back at camp, eating, trying

443
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 3: to go home, thinking about themselves.

444
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 2: Who was out there suffering with the dead.

445
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 3: It was a dog who loved her master who was

446
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,480
Speaker 3: now dead, and it kind of like woke them up

447
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,000
Speaker 3: a little bit. Obviously didn't change his behavior, kept doing

448
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 3: what he was doing, but for him to stop what

449
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,959
Speaker 3: he was doing and have that emotion that dog tapped

450
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 3: into something human in him, like the dog gave him

451
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 3: a reminder of the human condition and almost inhuman being.

452
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 3: And it's pretty remarkable. And I tried to compare like

453
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 3: the two forms of logic, the logic of the dog

454
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,360
Speaker 3: and the logic of the human, and to universalize that

455
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 3: we all have a little Napoleon in us.

456
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 2: We're all human.

457
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 3: We all want to keep achieving, we all want the fame,

458
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,879
Speaker 3: the status to a certain degree, the wealth to a

459
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,639
Speaker 3: certain degree to achieve the mission, whatever the mission is.

460
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 3: But the dog, again doesn't give a damn. To the dog,

461
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 3: that's all a fiction. To the dog. What matters is

462
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:27,919
Speaker 3: being there for the person you love. And that's what

463
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 3: the dog in the field is doing, is she was

464
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 3: there for the one human being that she loved. Nothing

465
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 3: else mattered, not taking over the world, not becoming a monarchy.

466
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 3: It was a human thing. And it was a really

467
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 3: poignant moment totally.

468
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 1: And I think a way at least I experience this

469
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,880
Speaker 1: is I will be, you know, driving around Las Vegas

470
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 1: and I might see a person who's homeless or whatever,

471
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 1: and you know, my initial thing is like do we

472
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: want to get too close? But then they'll have a

473
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 1: dog with them, and the dog doesn't care about the

474
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 1: person's condition or situation. The dog is just there. They're

475
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: just like clung onto that person. They're ready to go.

476
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: And it gives me like this moment to sort of

477
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 1: reframe things and see things in a more human way

478
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: that we're all kind of on this big spinning rock

479
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: and the cosmic abyss. And you know, at the end

480
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 1: of the day, everyone just like wants to be loved

481
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: wants to have something that's devoted to them, and we

482
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 1: often forget that. But it takes like a dog to

483
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: bring me back to that, you know.

484
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I mean, there's a whole world there that's

485
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 3: worth thinking on and again why that's the case, whether

486
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 3: it's the coevolution, But it almost doesn't even matter, because

487
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 3: if that dog can be enough to humanize all of

488
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 3: us and just be that reminder throughout the day that, Oh,

489
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 3: I wish I could remember. I just read a great

490
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,719
Speaker 3: quote about I think it was I was reading the journal,

491
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 3: the journals of Aaron's Junger, I think, and he said

492
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 3: something the effect of, what if before were born, we

493
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 3: had the opportunity we actually chose our role in life.

494
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 3: So the role that Michael Easter is living right now

495
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,959
Speaker 3: exactly as it was your whole history, all the good,

496
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,880
Speaker 3: all the bad, the role Sam Alaimo shows, we actually

497
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 3: chose that out of a selection before we were born,

498
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 3: and that adds like a level of autonomy and a

499
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 3: reminder of choice to our lives.

500
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 2: At the moment.

501
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 3: That strikes me as something like the dog, like it

502
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 3: almost doesn't. It's almost like Niets's eternal recurrence, like the

503
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 3: dog reminds you that this moment, no matter what it is,

504
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 3: you can wish it to be the same forever if

505
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 3: you're reminded to make of this moment everything you want

506
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 3: it to be. So it's like a roving philosophical reminder

507
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 3: of the dog. Maybe that's maybe that's what it is.

508
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 3: When you see the homeless man with the dog.

509
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: How do you feel like dogs? Have you be more present?

510
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: You've written about that. I feel like ever, you know,

511
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 1: everyone's like to your point about ambition and schedules are

512
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: more scheduled than ever. It's always like, got to be

513
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 1: doing something, got to be working five, ten, twenty steps ahead.

514
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 1: But the dog somehow pull us back into right now.

515
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 3: I wrote a different piece on Zumi's and watching over

516
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 3: time how the zumis end up declining with age. It's

517
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 3: super depressing, but that's the awareness, that's the moment it

518
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 3: brings you back to. And I'm a super big fan

519
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 3: of Tolkien. I read The Lord of the Rings every

520
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 3: year since I was fourteen. Same year I wanted to

521
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 3: be a seal every single year. And the perspective of

522
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 3: the elves is that you're a Middle Earth elf is

523
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 3: immortal and very early on in the creation of Middle Earth,

524
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,959
Speaker 3: they made an alliance with men, and I remember Tolkien

525
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 3: and film early and talking about the first meeting of

526
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 3: elves and men, and they met each other, they loved

527
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 3: each other, they respected each other. And then the men

528
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 3: got older and died, and the elves were just mourning.

529
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 3: They're like, why is he gray haired and wrinkled? And

530
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 3: I look like I'm twenty two, Like what is this curse?

531
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 3: And it reminds me of the dog? Where are they elves?

532
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,479
Speaker 3: The dogs are the humans because they live so much

533
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 3: less than us. So in a lifetime you could have five, six, seven, eight, nine,

534
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 3: ten different series of dogs. And every single time they

535
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 3: come and go, every single time they get a lot

536
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 3: of zoomies as a puppy and then know zuomies when

537
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 3: they die. It is literally a reminder of what is

538
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 3: the most important thing in the world. Every single day. Yeah,

539
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 3: and they literally he makes me slow down, makes me

540
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 3: stop what I'm doing, the stress, the phone, the slack,

541
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 3: the internet, the email, the writing, the thinking, and just

542
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 3: stop literally pet them, play with them for two minutes.

543
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 3: And then they teach you the value of five minutes,

544
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: because five minutes every day added up to a long

545
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 3: time and ten years of a dog. Yeah, and that's

546
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 3: sort of the macro makes a stentil perspective that I

547
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 3: try to keep every day.

548
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 1: When I read that piece, it reminded me. So I

549
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: have a dog right now who's six months old. His

550
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: name is Druke, and he's a German short hair. Yeah,

551
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: he's bred to high. He needs a mission, and oftentimes

552
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: his mission is, for example, pulling my computer monitor off

553
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: of my desk, which just a thirty two inch monitor,

554
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: shattering it into various pieces while also putting a gigantic

555
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 1: dent in the wood floor. And at first I'm just like,

556
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: oh my god, what have you done? But then it's like,

557
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: one day, this dog is not going to be pulling

558
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: down computer monitors, and you know what, I'm probably going

559
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: to miss that. And so it reminds you to just

560
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: be like, just enjoy the dog's personality now, because even though, yeah,

561
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: he pulls down some computer monitors, it's like he also

562
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: does all these other hilarious puppy things that are just amazing,

563
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 1: and I'm going to miss them one day.

564
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 3: And the spontanighty is good too, Like if everything's going,

565
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 3: if everything in life went perfectly well, life would be

566
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 3: so boring we probably couldn't even take it. So to

567
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 3: have a puppy busting at computer screen and like making

568
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 3: you stop whatever it is you're doing in your day

569
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 3: to clean it up, there's something magical on that.

570
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: Too, totally. So when Carson got sick, you can tell

571
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: us what happened. I can't remember the specific details, but

572
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 1: you ed just take him to the er overnight. What

573
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: did you learn from that?

574
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 2: I still don't know what to call out. I forget

575
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 2: what the name was.

576
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 3: So when he gets anesthesia and gets put under, it

577
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 3: collapsed his whole stomach, lining his whole intestinal track, so

578
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 3: we didn't know that we're bringing him home. And then

579
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 3: within a few hours he starts crying and whimpering. And

580
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 3: he doesn't do that, like he doesn't even when he's

581
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 3: in pain, he doesn't cry that much.

582
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: And it was like literally a heart tugging noise.

583
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 3: And it was on the weekend after the surgery, so

584
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 3: the that clinic was closed, and then we drove him

585
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 3: to the er. It was literally a raining day. He

586
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 3: was in the back seat. We both felt like we

587
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 3: wanted to throw up. We felt so bad for him.

588
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 3: He can't put words to it. It doesn't make any

589
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 3: sense to him. He's suffering. I would gladly take that

590
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 3: suffering for him, and we get him there and luckily

591
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 3: they found out what it was, gave him the medicine,

592
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 3: got his stomach back on track. Now he just needs

593
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 3: a shot before he gets put under. But like I

594
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 3: genuinely believe that the philosopher Epictetus was actually a dog

595
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 3: in human's clothing, Like if a dog could speak, it

596
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 3: would be Epictetus.

597
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 2: And he's one of my favorite thinkers.

598
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 3: And just kind of like brutal, blunt voice, bringing you

599
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 3: immediately back down to the present moment, immediately to what

600
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 3: is within your control and what is not within your control.

601
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 3: Forget about what's not maximize what is That's the dog

602
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 3: And I tried to when I got back from that trip.

603
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 3: I was in the middle of studying Epictetes and a

604
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 3: specific quote he had sounds super morbid, and it kind

605
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 3: of is. But it's like, what harm is there if

606
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 3: you whisper to yourself at the moment you're kissing your

607
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 3: child to say tomorrow you'll die, And that is a

608
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 3: classic epictetis stoic exercise.

609
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: It's not meant to be morbid.

610
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 3: And I try to explain explore what that meant through Carson.

611
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean don't care about it since you can't

612
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 3: control the life. It doesn't mean pull back and become

613
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 3: emotionally numb. I think it means the opposite. I think

614
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 3: it means use this reminder. This reminder of mortality is

615
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 3: a deliberate practice on the daily basis to reframe your

616
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 3: treatment of and your relationship with the people in your life.

617
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 3: And Carson having that near death experience, which like rip

618
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 3: this in two, is a verification of that quote. And

619
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 3: what it means to say tomorrow you will die is

620
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 3: to stop everything right now, appreciate not just the.

621
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: Dog, and that's the dog.

622
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 3: The dog's gift to us with their mortality is to

623
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 3: remember to treat humans in our lives the same way,

624
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 3: with the same patience, because they too will die and

625
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 3: so will we. And I try to frame that with

626
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 3: that quote. I'm pretty sure that's probably what Epictetus meant.

627
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 3: Will never know, but it's probably as good a definition

628
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 3: as any.

629
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because when you talk about that plundering

630
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: your own death or the death of others, like everything's

631
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: going to go a lot of people. To your point,

632
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: they do find that morbid. But I read about this

633
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: a little in The Comfort Crisis. I traveled to Bhutan

634
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: to write about the topic because they have a very

635
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: different relationship with death and contemplating it than we do.

636
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: But when I was doing research for that section a

637
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: chapter of the book, I came across this study. I

638
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: think it was conducted at Stanford. Don't quote me, but

639
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: they had these groups of people think about their own

640
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: death and their response was in the short term, that

641
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: was very uncomfortable. I did not like that at all.

642
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: But when they tracked them in the long term, they

643
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: ended up reporting higher levels of happiness because it had

644
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: changed their behavior in such a way that they realized, Oh,

645
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: this ride is going to end eventually, and I have

646
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: a choice of how I can write it. I can

647
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: enjoy this ride, I can like slow down, savor the

648
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: things I really love and get meaning from or not

649
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: more or less. So I do think there is some

650
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: good and I don't I'm not one of those people

651
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: that thinks we need a study behind everything to think

652
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: an idea is valid, not at all, but I do

653
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: think it, you know, sort of adds some scientific backing,

654
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: especially for the non believers.

655
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the striking thing about what we've been talking about,

656
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 3: the philosophy of the dog, epic piteous the human dog.

657
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 3: But to your point, people have been thinking about this

658
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 3: for a long time. And one of my favorite thinkers

659
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 3: is Urban d Alums. He was an existential psychotherapist. So

660
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 3: he took existentialism, which is like a world of double

661
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 3: talking out there, what are you talking about, but applied

662
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 3: it to psychotherapy, so he grounded it in the concrete

663
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 3: world and he actually practiced. So to your point, he

664
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 3: used his actual case studies, had actual patients to write

665
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 3: this book and explore what existentialism meant. And he riffed

666
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 3: a lot on cancer patients, car accident survivors, you name it,

667
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 3: and articulated their monologue. They're in a monologue before the

668
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: incident and then after the incident, and how just that

669
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 3: brush of death changed everything. They quit the job they hated,

670
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 3: They ended the relations and ship that was toxic. They

671
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 3: stopped and literally just looked at a flower, whereas before

672
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 3: is hey, I got to get to my car, I

673
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 3: think at the work. I think it's done. I have

674
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,719
Speaker 3: to go to the store, I have to come home. No, stop,

675
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 3: literally make a trip dedicated to just go look at

676
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 3: a flower or a butterfly at the park, and it's remarkable,

677
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 3: remarkable how much of a difference that can make. And

678
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 3: again that cuts through what we think is normal in

679
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 3: this world was constructed, which is a beautiful thing with

680
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 3: a lot of exceptional attributes, But that reminder of mortality

681
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 3: is a way to maximize it so that you can

682
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 3: still enjoy, like all the fruits of your labor and

683
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 3: get after life with as much passion as you want,

684
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 3: which I love doing. I love the speed, but at

685
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 3: the cost of the slowness and of the appreciation of

686
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 3: the gratitude, it almost doesn't worth it at that point.

687
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 2: So it becomes an art of balancing the two.

688
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: That's the dog, Yeah, exactly. You don't necessarily need the

689
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: brush with death, the car accident, the cancer, the tour

690
00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan. If you've got a dog, that's a reminder

691
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: right there, every single day.

692
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's practice, it's a discipline, all right.

693
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: Man. Well, I appreciate you coming on. Give Carson a

694
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: pat for all of us.

695
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 2: Walk on.

696
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 3: I appreciate the time, appreciate the conversation.

697
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 2: Thank you.

698
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: Now we are going to speak with doctor Nancy G.

699
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: She is the director for the Center for Human Animal

700
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 1: Interaction at Virginia Commonwealth University and she studies how dogs

701
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: can improve physical health and mental health. So we're going

702
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: to dive into all of the scientific details about why

703
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: dog ownership can be really, really good for you. Here's Nancy,

704
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: Doctor Nancy G. Welcome to the show.

705
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 5: Thank you very much for having me.

706
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: Here's where I want to start. In your Google Scholar profile,

707
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: you have yourself. Your photo is with a dog, which

708
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: I absolutely loved because I feel like most academics their

709
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: Google Scholar profile would be them in a white lab

710
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: coat or in a lab or something. But you're with

711
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: your dog. So what kind of dog or dog? Maybe

712
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: you have multiple dogs do you have?

713
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 4: I have two dogs right now and they are both

714
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 4: miniature poodles. I have had Border Collies and a wide

715
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 4: range of other breeds. But the program I run, we

716
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 4: have sixty six therapy dogs in the program and they're

717
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 4: all different dog breeds, from Golden Retrievers down to multipools,

718
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 4: so every breed size you can imagine amazing.

719
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 1: Is there a certain type of breed that tends to

720
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 1: do well as a therapy dog?

721
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 4: You know, it's a great question, and it all boils

722
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 4: down to the dog's temperament. So within any given breed,

723
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 4: you can have a range of temperaments. But generally speaking,

724
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 4: kind of the stereotypical therapy dog is going to be

725
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 4: that Golden retriever, golden doodle, labrador because generally speaking, these

726
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 4: dogs tend to be affiliative, and what that means is

727
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 4: that they like to visit with strangers. Not all dogs

728
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 4: really want to go up and have a stranger touch them,

729
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 4: and that's what it boils down to. Any dog can

730
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 4: do this. We've had Doberman's and pit bulls and breeds

731
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 4: that are stereotypically considered, you know, a little more fearful,

732
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 4: they're fear producing. But the reality is those dogs, many

733
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 4: of them, really do love to just interact with people

734
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 4: and have people pet them. And that's a unique quality

735
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 4: when you think about it. I mean, not very many

736
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 4: people want to go up to complete strangers and interact

737
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 4: with them, and so it is kind of a unique

738
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 4: quality and it isn't really breed specific.

739
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: I love that. How did you start pairing psychiatry with dogs?

740
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 5: So it kind of goes back a long time.

741
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 4: So I'm a researcher by training, and years ago I

742
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 4: was doing dog sports and it's kind of a long story,

743
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 4: but a couple of my friends said, Hey, we're doing

744
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 4: a therapy dog evaluation. Your dogs would be great. Why

745
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 4: don't you bring your dogs and get them evaluated. So

746
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 4: I did and they passed, and now I have these

747
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:00,479
Speaker 4: two registered there dogs.

748
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 5: What am I going to do?

749
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 4: So I started visiting with them a wide variety of

750
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 4: different populations, and I was seeing these kind of amazing effects.

751
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, really kind of chilling in that,

752
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 4: you know, people get very emotional when they see some

753
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 4: of these interactions. And so as a scientist, I was thinking, well,

754
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 4: that's anecdotal, you know how much of that is real?

755
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 5: And so I started doing research.

756
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 4: I started doing experiments, and I've been finding out over

757
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 4: the course of about twenty five years that dogs really

758
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 4: do make a difference in a variety of ways in

759
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 4: the lives of humans.

760
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: That's so interesting that it started with this observation then

761
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: a little bit of skepticism, but I have the background

762
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: to maybe figure out if there's some there there. I

763
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 1: feel like that's how most great scientific findings start.

764
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 4: Well, you know, that's absolutely true. And that's where I

765
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 4: came from, is trying to apply the science to it.

766
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 4: And so I was doing randomized trials very early on,

767
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 4: and I was getting some neat results, which was really

768
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 4: kind of interesting and also affirming in that there is

769
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 4: something to this. It isn't just anecdote. And I think

770
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 4: it is that science, that body of evidence that legitimizes

771
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 4: these kinds of practices. And so we see, for instance,

772
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 4: therapy dogs in hospitals. We just completed three randomized control

773
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 4: trials in a hospital setting. So we were looking at

774
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 4: the sort of the most vulnerable populations, and we were

775
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 4: looking at people who are vulnerable to the dilitarious effects

776
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 4: of loneliness, and those are older adults, those with mental illness,

777
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 4: and hospitalized children.

778
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 5: We just completed those studies and guess what.

779
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 4: We found that the dogs actually do improve loneliness among

780
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 4: other measures that we included in those studies.

781
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: Interesting, what did the people who were participants the patients report?

782
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 1: Did you talk to them at all? And what were

783
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: some of the things they found? And I guess what

784
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: how did you? I guess how did you measure the improvements?

785
00:38:59,120 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: As well?

786
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 4: So we use standardized measures to begin with, So we

787
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 4: used some reliable and valid measures of loneliness, anxiety, depression,

788
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 4: and also mood. And we also collected some physiological measures

789
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 4: using essentially a riskwatch that collects a variety of different

790
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,919
Speaker 4: kind of physiological outcomes. And we also collected saliva from

791
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 4: the children so that we could look at CITO kinds

792
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 4: and other measures of stress. So what did the participants say, Well,

793
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 4: it's really interesting when you think about this kind of research.

794
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 4: We're upfront with them right as part of the informed

795
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,919
Speaker 4: consent process. We say this is a randomized trial. We've

796
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 4: got three conditions. One of them includes a dog. The

797
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 4: other two do not include a dog. And so one

798
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 4: of the things one of the challenges that we faced

799
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 4: is that the people always wanted the dog. So the

800
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 4: people who are willing to be in this kind of research,

801
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 4: they really do want to have the dog present. Now,

802
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 4: in fairness, they participated anyway, even if the dog wasn't

803
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 4: in their condition. We had very few dropouts, but people

804
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 4: really wanted that dog to come visit them while they

805
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 4: were in the hospital. These folks were all hospitalized for

806
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 4: five or more days. So this is where loneliness becomes

807
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 4: a real issue in these kind of chronic situations, and

808
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 4: it can be so important to intervene while they're in

809
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 4: the hospital.

810
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 5: If we can reduce their loneliness, what we.

811
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 4: May see and we don't know this yet, but what

812
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 4: we may see is better adherence to sort of follow up,

813
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 4: better compliance with their ongoing treatment, and perhaps more positive outcomes.

814
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 4: Right now, we know that we see these effects in

815
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 4: terms of anxiety, depression, loneliness, and mood in particular was

816
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 4: altered by the presence of the dog.

817
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: What do we know generally about the physical health impacts

818
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: of dog ownership?

819
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 4: So dog ownership is a little bit different, right, So

820
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 4: what we did was an interaction study. So again, this

821
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 4: is what I was talking about earlier. These are dogs

822
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 4: that go and interact with complete strangers, right, But dog

823
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 4: ownership itself is a little bit different. There's some neat

824
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 4: research out there that shows that, for instance, dog owners

825
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 4: tend to have lower blood pressure, lower risk of cardiovascular disease,

826
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 4: improved mood. There's one study about individuals who adopted pets

827
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 4: that showed that they reported fewer health complaints after adopting

828
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 4: a pet. And there's some really neat research that happened

829
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 4: years ago by Erica Friedman She looked at individuals who

830
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 4: had a heart attack, and she was doing research on

831
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 4: a wide variety of things, and basically she gave them

832
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 4: a questionnaire, you know, on a whole bunch of things,

833
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 4: and one of those questions was do you own a pet?

834
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 4: And then she followed up with them one year later

835
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 4: and guess what, the pet owners were more likely to

836
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 4: be alive one year later than the non pet owners,

837
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 4: particularly the dog owners.

838
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,320
Speaker 5: And so here's the problem with pet ownership research.

839
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 4: People want to pick their own pets, and you know,

840
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 4: researchers want to as sign people to conditions, right, so

841
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 4: we get a selection bias in a lot of pet

842
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 4: ownership research. Now, there are some studies out there where

843
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 4: people have been assigned to either own a pet or not,

844
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 4: but they tend to be small samples and they tend

845
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 4: to use quite unique populations. For example, there was a

846
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 4: study done in Korea where they assigned people to care

847
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 4: for crickets, so they became cricket owners, and over an

848
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 4: eight week period of time, they found out that depression

849
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 4: scores were decreased and there were some other need improvements

850
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 4: over just adopting and caring for crickets. Wow, so we

851
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 4: do think that pet ownership can be beneficial.

852
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 5: But here's the fundamental question.

853
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 4: Do healthy people choose to own pets or do pets

854
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 4: make people healthy? That's the part that's really hard to

855
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 4: tease out.

856
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: Does the study on the people who had heart attacks?

857
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: Does that seem to suggest that there's some there there

858
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: more or less because we're starting fundamentally with a population

859
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: that's unhealthy, you.

860
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 5: Know, it's a great question.

861
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 4: And so a lot more research has been done since then,

862
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 4: and the American Heart Association actually issued a statement evaluating

863
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 4: all of the existing research and basically saying that pen ownership,

864
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 4: particularly dog ownership, is associated with and probably causally associated

865
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 4: with a reduced risk of cardiovascular disease, adding that word

866
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 4: causal in there. That's a big deal for that kind

867
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 4: of thing to be issued from the American Heart Association.

868
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 4: And so there is some evidence to indicate that that

869
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,919
Speaker 4: dog ownership, particularly dog ownership, is beneficial for cardiovascular health.

870
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 4: We don't know what that's due to. Is it because

871
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 4: dog owners are more likely to take their dogs for

872
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 4: walks and we know that walking is good for you?

873
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 4: Is it that we need to care for another living being,

874
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 4: you know, a dog?

875
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 5: They force it to freedom.

876
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 4: You know, they say, hey, it's time for food, it's

877
00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 4: time for me.

878
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,399
Speaker 5: To go out. They force you to get up. In fact,

879
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 5: I did a study with some great.

880
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:07,720
Speaker 4: Researchers up in Scotland and we looked at older adults

881
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,879
Speaker 4: and older adults who had dogs. They experienced fewer sedentary

882
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 4: events during the day.

883
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 5: And sitting is kind of the new smoking, right, Sitting

884
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 5: is not good for us. We need to get up

885
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 5: and move around.

886
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 4: They also walked more, and they walked faster, and so

887
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 4: there is some evidence that having a dog can be

888
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 4: a very healthy choice.

889
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because my mom is she's now. I

890
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 1: don't know if she may disown me for giving her age,

891
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: but I'll just say she's in her late seventies. That

892
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: we won't put a firm number on it. She got

893
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,959
Speaker 1: a dog maybe six years ago, five years ago. And

894
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 1: one it made her far more active. You know, her

895
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 1: step counts easily doubled. Two, it gave her a routine.

896
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 1: So she was kind of winding down into retirement. So

897
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,800
Speaker 1: as she had this job that was somewhat high pressure,

898
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: her entire life that goes away. But now she a dog.

899
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: That to your point about routines. Oh, I got to

900
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: feed it, I gotta take it for walks. Oh I

901
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:04,959
Speaker 1: got to go get it to go to a bath.

902
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: Like that, this routine gets inserted that keeps her active

903
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: but also gives her I guess I would use a

904
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 1: sort of sense of purpose. And then to layer on

905
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: top of that, she's met so many new people through

906
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: that dog. She goes she's got a doodle, She goes

907
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 1: to doodle meetups in Las Vegas. One of her current

908
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: best friends is someone she met through the dog.

909
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 5: Yeah. You know, dogs are kind of the great leveler.

910
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 4: You know, you're you're willing to risk interacting with somebody

911
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 4: you don't know just because they have a dog.

912
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 5: And you see people doing this all the time. They'll

913
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 5: pull out their phone.

914
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 4: And I've got a doodle too, and they start showing

915
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 4: you a photo on their phone of their dog, and

916
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 4: we start having these interactions and you know, So, we've

917
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 4: done some research on older adults and pet ownership, and

918
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 4: one of the things that we see is as people age,

919
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 4: pet ownership.

920
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 5: Drops off, and so that is a little bit problematic.

921
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 4: But for those older adults who do retain their pets,

922
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 4: we also see a greater retention of cognition and physical functioning,

923
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 4: and so that's kind of an important finding.

924
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 5: If you can support.

925
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 4: Older adults to maintain their pets as they age, it's

926
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 4: actually it seems to be really good for them in

927
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 4: terms of cognition and physical function.

928
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: How important is the I believe in one of your

929
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: studies you might have used the word motivation, just in

930
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: the sense that sometimes when people retire. I feel like

931
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: you read reports where you know they might have worked,

932
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 1: they sort of had purpose and motivation every day, and

933
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 1: then that sometimes can kind of disappear. You know, It's

934
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: like the first couple weeks of retirement, you're like, this

935
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: is great, I don't have to do anything, But then

936
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 1: after that you go, oh, I don't have to do anything.

937
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: How important are talks for that and how does that

938
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: play out?

939
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 4: You know, it can be very important, and so we've

940
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 4: talked about it as being kind of a reson vetre right,

941
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 4: a reason for living. And with for instance, older adults,

942
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 4: when when one of the couple passes away the other one,

943
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 4: if they have a pet, they experience a shortened grieving process,

944
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 4: and so there is something to be said for the

945
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 4: pet helping them to recover from that grieving process.

946
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 5: We're also very.

947
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 4: Much aware that older adults or individuals who are considering

948
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 4: suicide will say, I won't do that because I have

949
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 4: to be there to take care of the dog, and

950
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 4: so that can also be very impactful, the fact that

951
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,399
Speaker 4: they will not commit suicide because they have to take

952
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 4: care of the dog. If you can get them through

953
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,879
Speaker 4: that period, that's amazing and incredibly beneficial.

954
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 5: Now, we also have.

955
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 4: To consider that pets are not a panacea, though you know,

956
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 4: there are downsides to pet ownership too. For instance, pets

957
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,760
Speaker 4: don't live as long as we do, and so losing

958
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 4: a pet can be very emotionally impactful, or caring for

959
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 4: a sick pet can be very challenging as well, particularly

960
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 4: if you know that things aren't ultimately going to go

961
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 4: well with whatever disease that pet is dealing with. And

962
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 4: for older dogs else we have to also be concerned

963
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 4: about risks of falling. Now here's where it gets a

964
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 4: little bit tricky, because older adults who walk their dogs

965
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 4: and who get out there and do things with their

966
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 4: dogs have a lower risk of falling. However, we do

967
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 4: have to be concerned about older adults in the home,

968
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 4: perhaps perhaps tripping over a pet and falling.

969
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, or having a one hundred and twenty pound dog

970
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: who likes to pull on the leash when it's someone

971
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 1: who weighs who is I don't know, eighty and weighs

972
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty pounds or something, and it.

973
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:31,879
Speaker 4: Can pull their arm out of the socket or feel

974
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 4: that way, that could be very challenging.

975
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do we know about dog ownership or interventions

976
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: on dogs and mental health.

977
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 4: So actually, we've written an entire book on this is

978
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 4: published by the American Psychiatric Association.

979
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 5: It's a wonderful book.

980
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 4: And what we did is we paired researchers in human

981
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 4: animal interaction with psychiatrists, and each of the chapters in

982
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 4: this book are really about various aspects of the ways

983
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 4: in which animals, most stuffen dogs but not always can

984
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 4: be involved in the treatment of mental illness. But the

985
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 4: reality is there's some great evidence out there to indicate

986
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 4: that involving a dog in the treatment of mental illness

987
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 4: can be beneficial. Other species are also involved, so for instance,

988
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 4: there's equine therapy. Other kinds of animals have been used

989
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,879
Speaker 4: in classrooms in a variety of settings to help.

990
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 5: With that issue. Of motivation. I used to work with

991
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 5: preschool kids, and I'll tell you what.

992
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 4: Preschool kids become highly motivated when there's a dog in

993
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 4: the room.

994
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 5: And they are very willing.

995
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,760
Speaker 4: To raise their hand and practice turn taking and follow

996
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 4: the rules and listen to instructions when there's a dog present.

997
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 4: And so there is something kind of special and unique

998
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 4: about having a dog in these various situations to kind

999
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 4: of move things along, to sort of provide social lubrication

1000
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 4: if you want to get somebody to open up and

1001
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 4: talk more. Oftentimes with kids, they're more willing to talk

1002
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 4: to a dog than to their therapist. So the therapist

1003
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 4: could perhaps, you know, say would you mind telling the

1004
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 4: dog what's going on?

1005
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 5: And they will. And this was sort.

1006
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 4: Of discovered years and years ago, how just bringing a

1007
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 4: dog into therapeutic situation can help a client to relax

1008
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 4: and assuming of course that they like dogs, help them

1009
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 4: to relax and open up. And so there is something

1010
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 4: very sort of impactful about having that kind of key

1011
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 4: if you will, to sort of getting them to open

1012
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 4: up and participate. By the way, they also they'll show

1013
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 4: up on time. Kids who are in school programs, they'll

1014
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 4: go wake their parents up. Hey, we can't be late

1015
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 4: to school today because I know there's a dog there.

1016
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,439
Speaker 1: You know, what do we think is going on? Why

1017
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: does this happen with dogs in particular, and does it

1018
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: play out for cats too? I know the cat people

1019
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 1: are going, Oh, Michael, you always just harp on how

1020
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: much you love dogs. You never talk about cats, So

1021
00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: what's up with cats as well?

1022
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 4: Let me ask Let me answer the first question first,

1023
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 4: what's going on?

1024
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:05,280
Speaker 5: Why is this happening?

1025
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 4: Well, there's a number of proposed reasons for why it's happening.

1026
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 4: One is simple biophilia, and that means that we are

1027
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:16,840
Speaker 4: drawn to nature and natural things, and so that's a possibility.

1028
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 4: Another one is that dogs may help us to reduce

1029
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 4: our stress. And so if that's true, for example, we've

1030
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 4: seen decreases in blood pressure and cortisol and increases in oxytocin,

1031
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 4: that kind of bonding feel good hormone. If that's what's happening,

1032
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 4: then that freezes us up to use our cognitive resources

1033
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 4: for other things. So, for instance, dogs may be beneficial

1034
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 4: for things like test anxiety, because if the dog can

1035
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 4: help that person to relax, then what can happen is

1036
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 4: that frees up all that thinking they don't have to.

1037
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 5: Worry about, oh, I'm going to do terrible on this test.

1038
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 4: Instead they can actually start thinking about the questions on

1039
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 4: the test and perform well. So it could be stress reduction,

1040
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 4: it could be attachment. Particularly for our own dogs, that

1041
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 4: the power of attachment can be very important. We need

1042
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,839
Speaker 4: attachment figures in our lives, and dogs can meet sort

1043
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 4: of the requirements for an attachment figure. So, particularly for

1044
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 4: older adults whose social networks are decreasing, it may be

1045
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 4: beneficial to have that dog as sort of an intermediate

1046
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 4: attachment figure. And then you see that you start meeting

1047
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 4: other people through dog ownership, and it can help to

1048
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 4: rebuild those social circles a little bit. So lots of

1049
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 4: potential reasons for why it's happening.

1050
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 1: I feel like, especially with I guess what you would

1051
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,399
Speaker 1: call weak ties, people who you just kind of seeing

1052
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 1: your neighborhood. You have small conversations with them, but it's

1053
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: not like you're, you know, seeing them on the weekends

1054
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 1: going to dinner. I feel like dogs especially help with that.

1055
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: So we have I mentioned we have the German short airpointer,

1056
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: and there's another couple in our neighborhood that also has

1057
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,399
Speaker 1: a German short hair pointer. So whenever we see them,

1058
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:57,399
Speaker 1: we're going to stop and talk to them for five

1059
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 1: to ten minutes. You know, this happens maybe once a week,

1060
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 1: but it's like these small little moments with other people.

1061
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 1: I feel like those get overlooked, but they often really

1062
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: count for our emotional health, our mental health, and all

1063
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: these different things like that.

1064
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 4: Absolutely, what you're talking about is social capital. And so

1065
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 4: walking in the neighborhood, people don't necessarily know my name,

1066
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,359
Speaker 4: but they might know my dog's name, and they might

1067
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,839
Speaker 4: come over to chat with me just to talk about

1068
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 4: the dog. And there are other poodle owners in the neighborhood,

1069
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 4: and likewise, you know, we stop and chat and let

1070
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 4: the dogs interact.

1071
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 5: But it also it can build from there.

1072
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 4: So for instance, your neighbors might say, Hey, we're going

1073
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 4: to go out of town, would you mind watching our

1074
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 4: dogs while we're out of town, And so you start

1075
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 4: to build greater connections with people in your neighborhood. The

1076
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 4: other thing that happens in neighborhoods where people walk their

1077
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 4: dogs is the dogs provide kind of an informal surveillance

1078
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 4: in the neighborhood and the neighborhood is perceived as safer,

1079
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 4: and so it draws people out. More people will communicate

1080
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 4: with one another. So it really can kind of help

1081
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,280
Speaker 4: to build those ties that may build into something more,

1082
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:05,879
Speaker 4: or it could be at the level of, you know, hey,

1083
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,760
Speaker 4: here comes Ali's mom, right, and we chat about Ali

1084
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 4: for a while, and that's okay. But the point is

1085
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 4: it is helping people to connect. And going back really

1086
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 4: quick to your question about cats versus dogs, So, first

1087
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 4: of all, with cats, there's just less research.

1088
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 5: We have far more research.

1089
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 4: In fact, the lion's share of research in this area

1090
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 4: involves dogs, and there's lots of reasons for that, but

1091
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 4: not least of which a dog is highly trainable and

1092
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 4: is willing to go into hospital environments.

1093
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 5: And you know, zoonotic disease transmission is.

1094
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 4: Very well understood in dogs, so we can safely take

1095
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 4: them into hospital situations because we can prevent kind of

1096
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 4: the zoonotic disease transmission through some simple behaviors. But with cats,

1097
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 4: some of the research does not bear out with cats

1098
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 4: as it does with dogs. So, for instance, the pet

1099
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 4: ownership research that I was talking about before, we see

1100
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 4: some really nice decreases in blood pressure and cortisol and

1101
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 4: some of that things that doesn't necessarily bear itself out

1102
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 4: with cats. Particularly in that study that I mentioned that

1103
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 4: Erica Friedman conducted where she looked to see if people

1104
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 4: were alive a year later. That was true for dog owners,

1105
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 4: but it wasn't true for cat owners. And so what

1106
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 4: I would have to say is we can't draw conclusions.

1107
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 4: There's just not enough evidence. We need more research with cats,

1108
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 4: and we need bigger studies with cats in order to

1109
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 4: be able to draw some real conclusions. Right now, we've

1110
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 4: got some very solid evidence with dogs and a little

1111
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:40,240
Speaker 4: bit of evidence with cats.

1112
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense. I think one thing that's interesting too,

1113
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 1: is that all of this communication, the relationship that you

1114
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 1: have with the dog is totally nonverbal. Right. You can

1115
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 1: tell them stay whatever, but they're not going to talk back.

1116
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,280
Speaker 1: And it's really interesting, though, how you can still communicate

1117
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 1: with your dog and they can communicate with you. My

1118
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 1: dog will tell me what he wants, what he wants

1119
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: to do, And I just think that's fascinating that we're

1120
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: not speaking to each other, but we kind of know

1121
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:08,879
Speaker 1: what's going on with each other.

1122
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 4: You know, if you think about kind of the process

1123
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:17,359
Speaker 4: of domestication and selection, of dogs from their ancestors, which

1124
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,359
Speaker 4: are predominantly gray wolves, and the.

1125
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 5: Wide variety of breeds that we have from that.

1126
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 4: But if you think about that process, what's happened is

1127
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 4: that dogs have become highly adept at reading our social cues.

1128
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 4: They're also pretty good at telling time, so they have

1129
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 4: ideas about when it's time to go to bed or

1130
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 4: you know, when it's time to go for a walk.

1131
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 4: And if you say those words, I kind of glanced

1132
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 4: to the side because my dog's here and I just

1133
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 4: said that word that.

1134
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:43,720
Speaker 5: We normally spell.

1135
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 4: By the way, they do pick up on some of

1136
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 4: those words, and some dogs do have a pretty good

1137
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 4: vocabulary in terms of picking up on words that you say.

1138
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 4: But you're absolutely right, the dogs do not speak English.

1139
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 4: They don't come back to us and say, mom, I

1140
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 4: would like to go for a walk, right, not what

1141
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 4: they do. But yet they do communicate pretty clearly what

1142
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 4: their needs are. For instance, with my dogs, I put

1143
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 4: sleigh bells on the doors, so when they have to

1144
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 4: go out, they go ring the bell, and you know,

1145
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 4: like a good maid or butler, I.

1146
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 5: Go running over and open the door to take them out.

1147
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, we do the same, and it's funny what you

1148
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 1: say about time. We had a German short hair who

1149
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 1: you can tell a fame. We love short hairs who

1150
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: passed away. But this dog knew what time it was

1151
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: all the time. It would be right, does the clock

1152
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: hit five, he'd perk up like it was dinner time.

1153
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 1: Same at seven am. It was just hilarious. It would

1154
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 1: drive us nuts, but it was just such a lovable

1155
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 1: trait he had.

1156
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 4: Well, you know, and their senses are so different from

1157
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 4: our own. So you know, for instance, when my partner

1158
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 4: comes home, the sound of the car, the sound of

1159
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 4: the door, I think the dogs hear that, right, they

1160
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 4: hear the sound. They can smell things beyond what we

1161
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 4: can smell. Our noses are virtually useless compared to what

1162
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 4: they can smell, and so they have their ability to sense,

1163
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 4: I think really helps them to appear to have a

1164
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 4: far better understanding of the situation, largely because like, oh,

1165
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 4: here comes mom, and they know right, they can tell.

1166
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure with my dog it was okay. He

1167
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 1: stopped working about an hour ago. He did this. He

1168
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: did this, Oh, dinner usually happens sometime in this arena.

1169
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 1: Whatever happens, and.

1170
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 5: What clothes you put on.

1171
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, if you put on the work suit right,

1172
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 4: then the dog knows, oh, they're gone to work, and

1173
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 4: they behave differently than if you put on the clothes

1174
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 4: to go outside for a walk or to hang out

1175
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 4: on a Saturday.

1176
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 5: They do pick up on these cues.

1177
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, are there any studies where dogs have been brought

1178
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: into retirement homes? And absolutely, and one of those found.

1179
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 4: So wide variety of things, but for instance, there's lots

1180
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 4: of visitation programs to retirement homes, and so they see

1181
00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 4: things like reductions in depression for some older adults, particularly

1182
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 4: those with memory problems, on the days the therapy dogs

1183
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 4: are going to be there. Those older adults are very

1184
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 4: good at orienting to time and place. Are the dogs

1185
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 4: coming today? When will they be here? That can really

1186
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 4: sort of help them to orient. They're also more verbal,

1187
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 4: they're more willing to talk and open up. And with

1188
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 4: some older adults, we start to see issues with regard

1189
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 4: to calorie consumption. So they begin to lose weight and

1190
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 4: so we need them to eat more. And so one

1191
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:32,640
Speaker 4: of the things that they did is they put an

1192
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 4: aquarium in the dining area at a retirement home and

1193
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 4: they found that simply having the aquarium in there got

1194
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 4: the older adults to consume more calories because they stayed

1195
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 4: longer and they watched the fish and they ate more food. Interesting,

1196
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 4: and so there's some really neat, neat studies. One study

1197
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 4: did some things like having the older adults do some

1198
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 4: basic dog care, brush the dog, put a collar on them,

1199
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 4: and that's really good for helping them with fine motor skills.

1200
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 4: So a wide variety of different kinds of studies have

1201
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 4: been done showing some really neat results of those.

1202
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 5: Animal visitation programs.

1203
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:15,200
Speaker 4: And I should mention that although therapy dogs are the

1204
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 4: largest number of therapy animals, there are other kinds of

1205
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 4: therapy animals. There're therapy cats and therapy bunnies and therapy

1206
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 4: lamas for instance.

1207
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: That's great. Who should not get a dog.

1208
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 4: A person who doesn't have time, yeah, and a person

1209
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 4: who does not have the resources to care for the dog.

1210
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 4: So if you're working sixty hours a week, don't get

1211
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 4: a dog. These dogs are social animals. They want to

1212
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:42,640
Speaker 4: be with you. And so if you don't have the

1213
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 4: time to welcome a family member into your family, and

1214
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 4: it's not a good time to get a dog. And

1215
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 4: I think people need to do an honest evaluation of that.

1216
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 4: You know, am I at a good space to have

1217
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 4: a dog? Am I going to be able to be

1218
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 4: there to spend time with these social animal? And do

1219
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 4: I have the financial resources to take them to the

1220
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 4: vet and buy them the food and the toys and

1221
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 4: all of those sorts of things need to be considered

1222
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 4: when you're thinking about getting a dog.

1223
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you do have the time and the resources,

1224
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,479
Speaker 1: it seems like a pretty good idea for your health.

1225
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 1: And what I thought was interesting when we started is

1226
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: that the dogs that you work with, they're all different breeds,

1227
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 1: So it's not like you have to single out a

1228
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 1: specific breed. It's like pick one you want, pick one

1229
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 1: that seems friendly, and you're good to go.

1230
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 4: Do your research, you know, find out what kind of

1231
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 4: a dog is going to fit your lifestyle. For instance,

1232
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 4: if you have a very sedentary lifestyle and you're not

1233
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 4: going out in the world, or maybe you live in

1234
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 4: a small apartment, you probably don't want that border collie r.

1235
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 4: A border collie wants to run and wants a job

1236
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 4: and really needs to be active and working with their

1237
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 4: handler a lot.

1238
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 5: So maybe what you want to do is get a

1239
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 5: small dog.

1240
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 4: There are some great dogs that are sort of considered

1241
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 4: lap dogs that would be great for an apartment if

1242
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 4: you're if you have allergies, you want to think about

1243
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 4: getting you know, what kind of pet can I have

1244
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 4: that would.

1245
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:07,200
Speaker 5: Suit my allergies?

1246
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 4: And there's no such thing as a hypoallergenic animal. But

1247
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 4: the reality is that some of those curly coated breeds,

1248
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,920
Speaker 4: like poodles, they tend to keep the dander close to

1249
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 4: the skin rather than releasing it into the environment. So

1250
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 4: people react less to non shedding breeds and particularly curly

1251
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 4: coated breeds. But again, find out, go visit that kind

1252
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 4: of dog and make sure that your allergies can tolerate them.

1253
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 1: When we so we're on our second German short hair

1254
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 1: pointer and we had a trainer come help us, and

1255
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 1: you know, we called her before we got them. We're

1256
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 1: getting a German short hair pointer. And she goes, do

1257
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 1: you know what you're getting into? He said, yes, we

1258
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 1: know exactly what we're getting into. We know they're absolutely nuts.

1259
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: They need a mission, they need to be run, they

1260
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 1: need a lot of exercise. But we love them for.

1261
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 4: That absolutely, And that's true of every dog. Right finding

1262
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 4: out what that dog needs, and then meeting the.

1263
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 5: Dog where they are.

1264
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 4: You know. For example, I think some people are very

1265
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 4: well meaning when they meet a dog for the first

1266
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 4: time and they do that pat the dog on the

1267
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 4: top of the head. I have yet to meet a

1268
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 4: dog that wants to be patted on the top of

1269
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 4: the head, right.

1270
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 5: They love to be scratched behind the ears.

1271
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 4: And the point is find out what the dog likes,

1272
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 4: you know, what makes that dog happy and excited, and

1273
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 4: do that with your dog a lot. And what's neat

1274
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 4: about it is that makes us feel good. We feel

1275
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 4: really good inside when we do things that make our

1276
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 4: dog feel good, which is kind of neat.

1277
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 1: I love that. Our final question, and this one's kind

1278
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 1: of a strange one. We're gonna flip the tables a

1279
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 1: little bit. Let's say the dog is the psychiatrist. What

1280
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 1: do you think dogs would prescribe to humans to be well.

1281
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 5: Live in the moment, Live in the moment. This is

1282
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 5: such a good lesson from dogs.

1283
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 4: They live in the here and now, and so much

1284
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 4: of what troubles humans is worrying about things that are

1285
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,840
Speaker 4: not in the here and the now or aren't as

1286
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:06,320
Speaker 4: pressing in the moment. And if we can live in

1287
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 4: the moment. If we can take time to smell the flowers,

1288
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,480
Speaker 4: we don't necessarily have to smell other dogs.

1289
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 5: Behind right like a dog would.

1290
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 4: But the point is if we enjoy those sensory experiences

1291
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:22,560
Speaker 4: and really live in the moment, I think that would

1292
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 4: be a dog's advice to us.

1293
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 1: I love it well, Nancy, thanks so much for joining us.

1294
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed this conversation.

1295
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me. This has been

1296
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 5: a lot of fun.

1297
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 1: Welcome back. We're going to end the show, but before

1298
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:38,480
Speaker 1: we do, I got some final words about dogs and

1299
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 1: keeping them healthy this summer. Summer is heating up. Turns

1300
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 1: out the dogs are not as able to cool themselves

1301
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 1: as us humans are. So humans are actually really unique

1302
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 1: as species because we're so good at cooling ourselves. This

1303
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 1: is because we are not covered in fur. We also

1304
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 1: stand upright so the sun doesn't hit us as intensely,

1305
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 1: and we also sweat. Now dogs they have known of this.

1306
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 1: They're covered in fur, which is insulating, and they also

1307
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 1: don't sweat. They have to cool themselves by panting. Not

1308
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 1: to mention, they are down horizontally on the ground, so

1309
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 1: they get hit with a lot more sunlight. So I

1310
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 1: want you to think of it like this. Their situation

1311
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 1: in the heat would be like if you were to

1312
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:23,880
Speaker 1: cover yourself in anti pursprint and put on a winter

1313
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 1: coat and then just sort of crawl around the ground.

1314
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 1: You get really hot on a hot day. So dogs

1315
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 1: can overheat at temperatures that are surprisingly not that hot

1316
01:05:32,920 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 1: for US ninety degrees eighty degrees, those can be really

1317
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 1: hot and dangerous temperatures for dogs. So what does that

1318
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 1: tell us? What should you do this summer? First and foremost,

1319
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 1: if you are taking your dog out in the summer

1320
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 1: and you feel like it's hot, like you're getting a

1321
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:52,280
Speaker 1: bit overheated, that is definitely definitely happening to your dog.

1322
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 1: So my main advice for taking dogs out in the

1323
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 1: summer is to do so early in the morning or

1324
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:01,640
Speaker 1: after the sun has gone down. That is going to

1325
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: be the number one thing you can do to make

1326
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 1: sure your dog stays healthy. If you happen to be

1327
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:09,960
Speaker 1: out and your dog does start to pant excessively or

1328
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:12,400
Speaker 1: stumble a bit, you want to get that dog immediately

1329
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:15,520
Speaker 1: in some shade, give them some water, maybe give them

1330
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:18,120
Speaker 1: some ice chips, just get them out of direct heat

1331
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 1: and not moving as much. You do those things, and

1332
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 1: you'll be able to keep your best friend healthy all summer.

1333
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 1: That is all we got for you today. Thank you

1334
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 1: as always for checking out the show. We're in your

1335
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:32,000
Speaker 1: feeds twice a week. And if you want to send

1336
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 1: us a question for our Ask Michael Anything section, we

1337
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 1: would love that Email it to media at twpct dot

1338
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:41,480
Speaker 1: com or just drop it in the comments. We would

1339
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 1: love voice memos as questions and also video questions. We

1340
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:47,720
Speaker 1: would love to run those. We'll answer as many of

1341
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 1: your questions as we can do. Not forget to subscribe,

1342
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 1: and as always, have fun, don't die. And I'm going

1343
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 1: to add one more thing. Love dogs