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Speaker 1: Hey y'all, this is Dr Joy from the Therapy for

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Speaker 1: Black Girls podcast and this it's a booster session. As

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Speaker 1: a reminder, the information included is meant to be educational

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Speaker 1: and entertaining, but it is not a substitute for a

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Speaker 1: relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me for a special bonus episode

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Speaker 1: of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. We'll jump into

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Speaker 1: the conversation right after a word from our sponsors. This

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Speaker 1: week on Insecure, we catch up with Easta and Nathan

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Speaker 1: reconvening after that very awkward night at her apartment, and

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Speaker 1: of course we have some thoughts. Dr Donna Orioo is

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Speaker 1: back with me to chat about what we saw this

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Speaker 1: week and where we might be hitted if you've missed

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Speaker 1: ever before. Dr orio is an author, international speaker, and

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Speaker 1: certified sex and relationship there this in the Washington d C.

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Speaker 1: Mentro area. She's the owner of a nod Right and

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Speaker 1: specializes in working with black women on issues related to

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Speaker 1: colorism and texturism and its impact on mental and sexual health.

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Speaker 1: She's also the author of Cocoa Butter and Hair Grease,

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Speaker 1: a self love journey through hair and skin. She and

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Speaker 1: I chatted about the difficulties with communication that persists with

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Speaker 1: Issa and Nathan, the tension between who Nathan is now

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Speaker 1: and who he might have been in the past, and

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Speaker 1: what the future might hold for them. This episode does

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Speaker 1: contain spoilers, so if you haven't watched the latest episode,

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Speaker 1: save this conversation until you've had a chance to watch,

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Speaker 1: and share your thoughts with us on social media about

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Speaker 1: the episode. Make sure to use the hashtag TVG in session.

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Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. I mean, well, let's at the stage, right,

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Speaker 1: Let's at the stage. So the episode opens with the

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Speaker 1: beach event, right, So this is what Nathan and Issa,

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Speaker 1: of course had talked about earlier in the season, that

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Speaker 1: he wanted to do some kind of like customer appreciation

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Speaker 1: thing me before the customers from the barber shop. And

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Speaker 1: so we see them at the beach. Him and his

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Speaker 1: friends are the fellow barbers putting on their sunscreen, which

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Speaker 1: actually was only lotion, right. So with the so the

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Speaker 1: last start pretty immediately, So that's our setting, and so

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Speaker 1: he and the friends are setting up and then we

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Speaker 1: see Issa and Molly and Kelly show up a little later,

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Speaker 1: and it is very clear that Issa and Nathan have

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Speaker 1: not talked since a week ago, which so week ago

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Speaker 1: was the crying incident where she asked him to spend

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Speaker 1: the night and they were kissing and she ended up

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Speaker 1: crying in his mouth. So what we see is that,

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Speaker 1: like there is this awkwardness right, so very much a

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Speaker 1: callback to awkward Black Girl and early seasons of Insecure,

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Speaker 1: Like EASA, I feel like has continued to be at

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Speaker 1: different levels of awkward, but I feel like this was

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Speaker 1: like peak awkward this week. Yeah, it was physically painful

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Speaker 1: to watch. I just I'm like, come on, girl, spit

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Speaker 1: it out. Oh please don't say that it was very

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Speaker 1: painful to watch. So what you kind of make of

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Speaker 1: the fact that clearly they have not talked in this

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Speaker 1: week and you know, she just kind of shows up

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Speaker 1: at this event. Honestly, I was just like, Okay, are

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Speaker 1: we being passive? Here? Are we wanting to have the conversation?

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Speaker 1: And there was this like desire for her to have

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Speaker 1: the conversation, And I mean, you saw it, right, this

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Speaker 1: is the continuing game because exactly, I was just like

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Speaker 1: this felt like a communication episode where the previous episode

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Speaker 1: was how they're not talking and how that lack of

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Speaker 1: communication was messing things up. You see it start in

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Speaker 1: this space, but you also get to see them do

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Speaker 1: more progression into the sort of conversations that they wanted

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Speaker 1: to be having. And I think it was just like

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Speaker 1: this piece around not wanting to look a certain way,

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Speaker 1: and I felt like maybe that's what this was about,

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Speaker 1: like how we see ourselves, how we desire for others

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Speaker 1: to see us, and how they actually see us. I

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Speaker 1: felt like this was the theme of this particular episode,

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Speaker 1: just the juxtaposition of what we see about ourselves, what

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Speaker 1: we know about ourselves, and what other people also a

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Speaker 1: definitely definitely, I mean, and you know, as the episode progresses,

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Speaker 1: like you said, we do see them move deeper into

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Speaker 1: having like more of the conversation that it feels like

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Speaker 1: they should have been having. But I still don't know

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Speaker 1: that we all the way got there. They didn't know.

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Speaker 1: We did not, We did not, But I feel like

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Speaker 1: they really opened the door toward it, especially at the end,

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Speaker 1: Like I feel like that for me was such a

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Speaker 1: vulnerability type moment to willingly put your cards down on

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Speaker 1: the table, not knowing how it is going to be received,

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Speaker 1: but being able to state this is the thing that

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Speaker 1: I want because I felt like they were talking about

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Speaker 1: their miscommunication spaces right, like they were like, well, I

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Speaker 1: expected you to be there when I woke up, and

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Speaker 1: it's just just like, oh, I didn't know that we

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Speaker 1: had expectations for each other. And I' just like, boom,

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Speaker 1: how many of y'all live in that life because a

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Speaker 1: lot of people are where we have expectations for someone

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Speaker 1: else that we have never stated to them, and so

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Speaker 1: when they behave in the way that we behave, we

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Speaker 1: but hurt. We got all these feelings about it. And

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Speaker 1: your feelings are neither right nor wrong. They're just feelings.

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Speaker 1: They're just information to let you know that something works

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Speaker 1: or does not work for you. But I'm like, the

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Speaker 1: person is not wrong because of what they did. You

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Speaker 1: had an expectation of them that was unstated. And if

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Speaker 1: you state your desire now they have a choice of

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Speaker 1: whether or not they would like to meet your desire.

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Speaker 1: Otherwise they're just gonna meet their own thing, which may

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Speaker 1: be a completely opposing design. And I think we very

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Speaker 1: much see that both Issa and Nathan have ideas in

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Speaker 1: their head about like how this relationship with the other

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Speaker 1: person is going to operate, that they're not actually communicating right,

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Speaker 1: Because if we even back up to Issa inviting Nathan over,

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Speaker 1: you know, so clearly we had had all of that

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Speaker 1: stuff with the show shed it, and so she was feeling,

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Speaker 1: i think, very overwhelmed, and so she you know, wanted

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Speaker 1: some support, and she asked Nathan to come over, but

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Speaker 1: then she asked him to spend the night. And so

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Speaker 1: in my mind, that is like some expectation that you know,

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Speaker 1: she maybe has, but that she has not clearly communicated

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Speaker 1: to him. And then he accepts the invitation and then

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Speaker 1: we see her crying, and so I think I'm just wondering, like,

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Speaker 1: how are they going to be able to move forward?

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Speaker 1: Because we see them both being very avoidant of this communication.

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Speaker 1: So what do we think that this is going to

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Speaker 1: look like? And like how might they work a little

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Speaker 1: better to be more open to communication if this relationship

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Speaker 1: is to progress. Honestly, I feel like if there was

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Speaker 1: going to be anyone who would be able to move

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Speaker 1: towards healthier communication, it's them. I'm thinking back to when

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Speaker 1: they first were meeting each other. I believe he might

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Speaker 1: have been in a man e space at that time,

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Speaker 1: but the communication and the vibe was, you know, it

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Speaker 1: was great and during this time where you know, he

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Speaker 1: came back from ghost then and basically a apologize to

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Speaker 1: earn her trust back, to even be her friend. All

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Speaker 1: of this has been, you know, a trust exercise and

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Speaker 1: trying to increase the communication and the transparency between them,

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Speaker 1: which they we're doing successfully. Is because both of them

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Speaker 1: had a desire to pivot their relationship that things became

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Speaker 1: murky again. And I think that some of that is

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Speaker 1: because we've been taught that if you are in a

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Speaker 1: particularly in a romantic relationship, you don't have to be

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Speaker 1: as clear as exactly mind green. You should just you

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Speaker 1: should just know that if you was really vibing with me,

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Speaker 1: if you was really feeling me, then you would know.

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Speaker 1: And I think that when we are not intentional, we

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Speaker 1: fall back into patterns of communication that maybe not have

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Speaker 1: served us well in the past, but certainly are the

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Speaker 1: patterns of communication and which we have been taught we're

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Speaker 1: supposed to be in when we are looking for a

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Speaker 1: specific type of situation. So I think it's both them.

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Speaker 1: They didn't know how to pivot and they didn't know

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Speaker 1: how to stay that to the other and whether or

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Speaker 1: not the other would be receptive to the pivot that

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Speaker 1: they were wanting to make. Yeah, I mean, because clearly,

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Speaker 1: you know, Issa was ready to invite you know, more

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Speaker 1: than just a friendship when she asked him to spend

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Speaker 1: the night, but there had been no communication. So we

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Speaker 1: see him come over expecting kind of just show up

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Speaker 1: as in the friend space, and she is, you know,

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Speaker 1: of course, now open to more. Now. I do think though,

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Speaker 1: it is also important to think about given how we

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Speaker 1: saw Nathan behaved before with just the ghosting, I would

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Speaker 1: imagine that him being gone that next morning woke that

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Speaker 1: back up for Issa, right like, oh gosh, here we

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Speaker 1: go again. But I'm wondering, you know, how could Nathan

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Speaker 1: have supported Issa from a friendship angle when she clearly

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Speaker 1: was upset that night. You know, I think that he

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Speaker 1: should have expected to be in a friendship angle, and

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Speaker 1: I think that he did. And when she pivoted, he

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Speaker 1: tried to meet her in that pivot, He's just like,

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Speaker 1: oh snap, I get the chance that I was asking

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Speaker 1: for before. It seems like we may actually be on

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Speaker 1: the same page. And then you know, the crying and

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Speaker 1: all that. It's like, oh snap, And he didn't apologize

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Speaker 1: you just like, you know what, I don't know that

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Speaker 1: you were ready, and we probably should have been clear.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think he said all those words.

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Speaker 1: I think I put those words in his mouth. But

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Speaker 1: you know, but the part where he apologized for kissing

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Speaker 1: her and she apologized in turn for asking him to

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Speaker 1: stay over, I feel like those were incomplete apologies because

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Speaker 1: they're apologizing for the thing, but really what they're apologizing

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Speaker 1: for is the intention behind the thing. So they're stating

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Speaker 1: the obvious, but they're not talking about the intention that

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Speaker 1: was behind it that they are wanting to really say,

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Speaker 1: I apologize for not telling you my intention as to

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Speaker 1: why I asked you to sleep over, and I am

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Speaker 1: sorry for not stating that I was looking for something

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Speaker 1: deeper with you when I kissed you. And like you're

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Speaker 1: giving a half apology, and that was still indicative of

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Speaker 1: really like halfway communication, because he definitely took it some

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Speaker 1: type of way like oh you you you're sorry for

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Speaker 1: inviting me to stay over, so you really don't work

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Speaker 1: with me. And I think that they're having these individual

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Speaker 1: narratives that are based on their own insecurities, how insecure

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Speaker 1: because they are feeling uncertain and unbalanced, they are also

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Speaker 1: not being vulnerable with one another to be able to

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Speaker 1: open up the other door to the deeper communication that

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Speaker 1: they were almost attempting to have but didn't appropriately happened

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Speaker 1: at the end of that. Yeah, so you know, as

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Speaker 1: you were talking, it made me think I wonder, like

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Speaker 1: maybe Issa had been going back and forth in her

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Speaker 1: mind about like what's she gonna try to open up

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Speaker 1: this door with Nathan again. But I wonder if her

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Speaker 1: inviting him over wasn't necessarily with the intent to like

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Speaker 1: be romantic with him, right, Like, I think she was

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Speaker 1: feeling again overwhelmed and had some feelings around everything that

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Speaker 1: had happened with Crunshawn and all of that stuff, and

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Speaker 1: so she in some support and then he got there

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Speaker 1: in the moment and like she changed her mind or like,

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Speaker 1: you know, became more open to that possibility. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: was wondering about that myself because I'm just like, well,

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Speaker 1: there's a piece of it that feels like, when you

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Speaker 1: are in I guess, your most vulnerable moment, who do

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Speaker 1: you turn to? And I think that the person that

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Speaker 1: you turned to usually it's indicative of what the situation is.

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Speaker 1: Because I think that we turned to different people in

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Speaker 1: different moments, but that that is the person that she wanted.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if that even may have surprised her at all,

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Speaker 1: to be like, oh, I actually I want to be

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Speaker 1: around him. I want his energy. I think that when

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at like Issa's relationships, one of them ones

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Speaker 1: that has like beautiful reciprocity is with Nathan, Like, especially

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Speaker 1: in this time where they've been friends, there has been

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Speaker 1: reciprocity there. And I think that's also what we like

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Speaker 1: about the relationship between Issa and Mollie. The reciprocity that

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Speaker 1: we see where it's not one person constantly taking and

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Speaker 1: the other person constantly giving. That's draining. And I know

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Speaker 1: that people were rooting for Issa and Lawrence, and I

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Speaker 1: think that they got to a space where they maybe

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Speaker 1: they could have had some reciprocity, But if we harken

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Speaker 1: back to where we started, there was none, and that

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Speaker 1: was the problem. So I agree, Like, I think it

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Speaker 1: was season three where we saw him actually apologize and

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Speaker 1: then disclose the information about his bipolar disorder. Like, I

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Speaker 1: definitely think like that took their relationship to a new level.

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Speaker 1: There was huge vulnerability there, So You're right, I do

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Speaker 1: think that, especially in these couple of seasons where we've

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Speaker 1: seen them developed this friendship. It has been really beautiful.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's probably why she did call him,

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Speaker 1: because it does feel like he is the person she

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Speaker 1: calls for this more like work creative kind of thing, right,

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Speaker 1: Like Molly is typically who, of course, who she calls

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Speaker 1: for relationship stuff, but it does seem like she's really

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Speaker 1: leaned on Nathan for this like work, frustration and creative,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of thing, And so I think it

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Speaker 1: did make sense that he was the one that she called.

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Speaker 1: And you know, like we're saying, maybe she was even

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Speaker 1: surprised by the feelings that she felt once he actually

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Speaker 1: showed up to support her. And I'm also thinking, like

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Speaker 1: the pivot that she's made in her life, her work

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Speaker 1: is integrated into her life now. When she was at

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Speaker 1: the other space, it was like work was separate from

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Speaker 1: her life, like she had to be there, and so

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Speaker 1: she was, but she was dissatisfied. And I think that

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Speaker 1: in building a life that she wants and building the

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Speaker 1: business that she wants, it is differently integrated into her life.

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Speaker 1: And because it's differently integrated into her life, like Nathan

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Speaker 1: is part of the catalyst for the work and she

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Speaker 1: acknowledges that like I was blowing into wind, now I

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Speaker 1: got roots and there's a piece of her that will

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Speaker 1: probably always appreciate Nathan m hmmm. More from my conversation

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Speaker 1: with Dr Orio oh after the break. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I do find my self and I think other people

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Speaker 1: are also feeling this, like can EASA get a new

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Speaker 1: slate of booze? Right? Because it does. It does feel

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Speaker 1: like we kind of go like, is there just only

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Speaker 1: this one story? You know? So? I mean so I

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Speaker 1: think we go back and forth like, Okay, do we

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Speaker 1: want her and Lauren together? Do we want her and Nathan? Together?

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Speaker 1: And so I think it does big an important question

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Speaker 1: around like when might we consider going back to an X.

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Speaker 1: There's a piece that wants to say like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you dump this person for a reason. The question is

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Speaker 1: whether or not you're willing to dig into the reasons,

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Speaker 1: if you're willing to have the conversations about all the

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Speaker 1: reasons that you broke up, not just on your own,

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Speaker 1: and really consider where things have gotten off track or

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Speaker 1: where they got misaligned or blah blah blah. A lot

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Speaker 1: of us because we are in a space of villainizing

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Speaker 1: the person that we were with sometimes in an effort

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Speaker 1: to move forward, but also because some of us we

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Speaker 1: think that they are the only one in the wrong period.

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Speaker 1: We never look at where we tripped, We never look

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Speaker 1: at how we contributed, So we don't even have the

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Speaker 1: type of growth that would allow us to have a

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Speaker 1: remix relationship with somebody because we don't know how to remix.

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Speaker 1: But like I think about, like the way that my

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Speaker 1: partner and I were able to come back, this was

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Speaker 1: months plural of hashing it out of where we went wrong,

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Speaker 1: about what he needed from me, about what I needed

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Speaker 1: from him, about what he needed for himself, what I

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Speaker 1: needed for myself, about talking about the direction that we

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Speaker 1: are moving in in our lives, and being open, honest,

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Speaker 1: vulnerable about it. That was Hella work. And I don't

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Speaker 1: know that a lot of people do that type of

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Speaker 1: work when they decide that they want to remix anything.

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Speaker 1: Don't look about what didn't work. We're just like, well,

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Speaker 1: I knew now I'm looking like I'm looking like y'all

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Speaker 1: be too many people be on that new year, knew me.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking like, no, it's a new year. It's just

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Speaker 1: it's still you, though, And there's nothing wrong with it

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Speaker 1: being still you. Yeah, and you're earlier point around like

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Speaker 1: why Lisa maybe even called Nathan that night anyway, right,

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Speaker 1: and like the growth that she's seen, I think that

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Speaker 1: that probably is would maybe leading her to perhaps like

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Speaker 1: have another opportunity with Nathan. Right, But I think the

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Speaker 1: communication pieces that we've already talked about may make it

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Speaker 1: did for them to have these kinds of conversations like

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, needs to be had before we really

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Speaker 1: even consider like, okay, am I going to try this

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Speaker 1: with this person again? Because you know we said the end.

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Speaker 1: We see them in this beautiful shot gazing over l

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Speaker 1: a right, you know, and it looks like, okay, they

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Speaker 1: both say, we don't want to be just friends, so

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Speaker 1: maybe we are gonna try something else. But again, how

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Speaker 1: many steps have been skipped for us to now just say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna like try this Roman to angle again. You

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Speaker 1: can start with the declaration, just don't forget the other

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Speaker 1: work that you actually got. You should be unpacking. If

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Speaker 1: y'all are going to try again, you need to unpack

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Speaker 1: the same way that they begin. You know, Issa began

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Speaker 1: to deal with Lawrence. There was an unpacking that was

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Speaker 1: going on and I'm just like, well, how are you

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Speaker 1: going to unpack with Nathan, because certainly you're able to

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Speaker 1: see what he the value that he brought into your life.

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Speaker 1: And I love the way that she just sort of

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Speaker 1: like defended him against his cousin, And it looked to

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Speaker 1: me that in that moment Nathan felt seen as opposed

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Speaker 1: to being the person that he was, he was seeing

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Speaker 1: for the person that he is in this moment and

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Speaker 1: seeing even through what his mental health had sort of

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Speaker 1: produced for him, especially in the lives of others. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you can make amends all you

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Speaker 1: want to, It doesn't mean that people accept your amends

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Speaker 1: or that they're able to move forward. So his cousin

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Speaker 1: definitely gets to have those thoughts and those feelings. But

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Speaker 1: even that piece was about communication and the lack of vulnerability.

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Speaker 1: What I personally did not like is that this dude

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Speaker 1: allowed his wife to be used to protect himself. He

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Speaker 1: used his wife as a shield between himself and Nathan

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Speaker 1: that let her take the heat and be like she

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Speaker 1: kicked him out rather than I'm telling you to leave

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Speaker 1: because I don't like the way that things are going

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Speaker 1: in my house and it's too indicative of how I

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Speaker 1: feel like black women in particular just thrown in the

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Speaker 1: mix when it is going to benefit somebody else. And

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Speaker 1: I feel like the individual relationship that she would have

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Speaker 1: got to have with his cousin with Nathan was disposable,

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Speaker 1: that her character was disposable so that he could maintain

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Speaker 1: whatever he wanted to maintain. So, you know, the introduction

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Speaker 1: of this cousin's care character, I think gives us some

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Speaker 1: more insight into maybe what was happening with Nathan. But

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Speaker 1: it also made me think, like the difficulties he has

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Speaker 1: with communication because we don't know like how long he

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Speaker 1: had been struggling with like bipolar symptoms before he actually

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Speaker 1: got the diagnosis. And so when you think about what

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Speaker 1: those symptoms sometimes look like in the internal experience of

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Speaker 1: somebody who's having bipolar disorder symptoms, I would imagine communication

356
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Speaker 1: could be difficult, right, because you're probably feeling very big

357
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Speaker 1: feelings that don't make sense to you, and then you

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Speaker 1: cannot explain that to the other people because it doesn't

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Speaker 1: make sense. And so in some ways, yeah, I feel

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Speaker 1: like maybe that is a part of where these communication

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Speaker 1: difficulties come from for him. And so it also made

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Speaker 1: me think, though what might we see and like what

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Speaker 1: might we learn or what might we want to see

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Speaker 1: in terms of Lisa maybe being able to support him

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Speaker 1: with a bipolar disorder. This is something that has happened

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Speaker 1: in my therapy room. I don't know if it happens

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Speaker 1: other folks therapy room. But what I find is that

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Speaker 1: when a person has a diagnosis, sometimes they invite their

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Speaker 1: partner to come to therapy so that they can have

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Speaker 1: an understanding of how this thing shows up for them,

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Speaker 1: because everything shows it differently for different people. I've had

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Speaker 1: clients bring their mothers. I've had them bring their partners

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Speaker 1: a friend so that this friend, this partner is able

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Speaker 1: to understand, like, Yo, they have depression, but the depression

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Speaker 1: that you see on TV with these white women is

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Speaker 1: not the depression that they have. It's funny because just

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Speaker 1: this week Erica Hart had this video where they talked

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Speaker 1: about like, falling apart is a privilege, and black people

379
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,800
Speaker 1: don't often have the privilege to fall apart. So depression

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Speaker 1: doesn't look like depression, or anxiety doesn't look like it.

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Speaker 1: Anxiety it looks like overachieving, It looks like constantly doing

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Speaker 1: it looks like maybe having a tough time getting out

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Speaker 1: of bed, but they do get out of bed, they

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Speaker 1: do go to work. Maybe they're a little late, but

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Speaker 1: they still do their work, or you know, they do

386
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 1: their bare minimum, which still ends up exceeding expectations. But

387
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 1: it's it's just like their depression, their anxiety, Black people

388
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 1: self esteem issues. These things don't always look like what

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Speaker 1: we have been taught that they look like. We try

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00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 1: to attribute it to something else that is personalized in

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Speaker 1: the way that it is their fault as opposed to

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Speaker 1: it being something else that could possibly could be going on.

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Speaker 1: And I think that sometimes we want to feel justified

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Speaker 1: in well that this is just how this type of

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00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:46,119
Speaker 1: person is, as opposed to there may have been circumstances

396
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,840
Speaker 1: that actually led up to this, right, and I feel

397
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 1: like this was the cousin's opportunity to remember that he

398
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 1: actually loves this man, that he actually loves Nathan, and

399
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 1: that Nathan is actually family. Like, yes, Nathan did things

400
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 1: to hurt you, and he is not absolved with those things,

401
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 1: and you still get to see him from your lens

402
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 1: based on your experiences at this snapshot in time with him.

403
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 1: But I think that we forget that that ship is

404
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 1: a snap shot It is one moment, maybe several moments.

405
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,119
Speaker 1: It is not the entirety of somebody's life. The moment

406
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 1: that we meet somebody, they have had something else happened

407
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 1: to get them to the moment that they get to

408
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 1: be in your presence, and after they leave your presence,

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Speaker 1: they're going to have many more moments to come. I

410
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 1: think that we sometimes get so hell bent on punishing

411
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Speaker 1: somebody for the ship that they did way back, when

412
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 1: that they have already apologized for that, they have already

413
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 1: attempted to make amends for, we like to throw it

414
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 1: back in their face on occasion, And sometimes I wonder

415
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 1: what does that saying about us? Why are we wanting

416
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 1: to throw that back in their face? Why are we

417
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 1: not wanting to see them be able to move forward? Yeah,

418
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 1: And you know, I think it's important to to know

419
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 1: that a lot of times like that critical behavior that

420
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,640
Speaker 1: we have on other people of other people is also internal, right,

421
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 1: Like we also are super critical of ourselves in that way,

422
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 1: and so it makes it difficult, Yes, it makes it.

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Speaker 1: It makes it difficult to be gentle and tender with

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00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 1: other people when we cannot do that with ourselves. And

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00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 1: it comes to something that I want for us. I

426
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: just want us to be gentle with ourselves, to be

427
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 1: nurturing of ourselves, to love on us in a different way.

428
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: I feel like we a lot of us have been

429
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,479
Speaker 1: taught tough love or brutal honestly, And I'm just like,

430
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Speaker 1: who told you honestly needed to be right? Like? Where

431
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 1: did you? Where did you pick that stuff? Go? Put

432
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: it back? And there's so many like little ways that

433
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: these things show up. And you know, this is the

434
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,679
Speaker 1: part where you know people grown because I say, a

435
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: lot of that you received from white supremacist patriarchy, and

436
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 1: we don't even see how we continue to replicate that

437
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: and our barely damn lives, the inability to see people

438
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: for what they actually are because we have an agenda

439
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 1: or because we have a chip on our shoulder, tell

440
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: me that same white supremacy in action. More from my

441
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: conversation with Dr Orio oh after the break. So you

442
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,719
Speaker 1: know the thing that we the thing that we haven't

443
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: to get back to Nathan. The thing that we have

444
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: not seen though, is any real conversation about like what

445
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 1: his treatment has looked like. Right, so he told Easa

446
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: and I don't remember what the time frame was of

447
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 1: like how long before he told Hesa he had gotten

448
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: that diagnosis, But we don't know anything about like is

449
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: he working with the therapist, is he on medication? And

450
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 1: we also, at least at this point, I think can

451
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 1: kind of be certain or at least a good guess

452
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 1: that like Issa may be the only one and maybe Andrew,

453
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 1: who we really haven't seen or have not seen at

454
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: all this season, are the only ones who know about

455
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: this diagnosis. And so you know, we hear Nathan say like,

456
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 1: I want people to see me for who I am now,

457
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: not who I was then, But he actually hasn't told

458
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: his cousin and his wife about what is happening, right,

459
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: and so he hasn't informed them, and I think that's

460
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: the because he doesn't see them the way they are. Now,

461
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: what do you mean, ironically enough, they kicked you out

462
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: of the house and you won't be vulnerable enough to

463
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: be like, hey, this is what was going on at

464
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 1: that time. I don't know that he feels like they

465
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: fostered a sense that a space that allows him to

466
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: be vulnerable either. So I guess I'm just like, well,

467
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 1: you want them to see you differently, but you know,

468
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: there's really been no new infunt I mean, Esa didn't

469
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: even know that these people lived here. She's thinking they visited.

470
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: So that means that you have not been visiting with him,

471
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: and certainly not visiting with him in a way that

472
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: you talk about it. And maybe they were avoiding him

473
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: as much as he was avoiding them or what have you,

474
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 1: because you know all this lovely water on the bridge. Yeah,

475
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 1: you make a good point there, Yeah, and it seems like, again,

476
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 1: what Nathan thinks he's communicating is not actually what's being

477
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: communicated because they're not actually talking. So in my mind,

478
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: it feels like maybe he invited the cousin and his

479
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 1: wife to it's like barbecue or whatever to show that

480
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 1: he's reliable now, right, Like I got my stuff together

481
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: and so now they will just see that I'm different

482
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: and not like, you know, flaky quote unquote like I

483
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 1: was when I live with them. So is there anything

484
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: else that we haven't covered on this idea of like

485
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: not being able to change how other people perceive us,

486
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 1: because Nathan, I think, says that a couple of times

487
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: in this episode, and Issa agrees like this idea that

488
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: like you might be a new person, but other people

489
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: might not see you that way, like, are there suggestions

490
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 1: you have around, like how to reconcile this past you

491
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: with this present you. Honestly, the part where Esa said

492
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 1: about waiting for the other shooter drop, I was just like,

493
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: if that ain't your past self in your current self

494
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: the Spider Man mean, just like we are in the

495
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: multiverse of madness year. It's almost like you're doing the

496
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 1: thing to yourself that other people are doing to you,

497
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 1: and they can't see you for where you are. And

498
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: I think part of it is because we don't tend

499
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: to live a very mindful life. I think that we

500
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: go through the motions and we don't even think about it.

501
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: Half of us get to work and we're not even

502
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 1: sure how we got there because we were paying no attention.

503
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: We move in autopilot, and we're moving in the type

504
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: of autopilot where we don't even try to sort of

505
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: dig back in. Maybe not that we don't try, but

506
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 1: that some of us aren't unable to even dig back

507
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: in to be mindful, to be awake and open in

508
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: the moment. We just sort of go through things and

509
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: we're barely present for it, you know, I think, especially

510
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: in this time frame and a pandemic right where so

511
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 1: much was like pulled from us so quickly and we're

512
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: still trying to figure out how to make sense of stuff.

513
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: Are there other suggestions you have for people who kind

514
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: of had that feeling of always waiting for the other

515
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: shoe to drop? I would say take the moment to

516
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: reflect on when the first shoe fell, because if you're

517
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: waiting for the other shoe to drop, then one shoe

518
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: has already fallen. What was the circumstances then, and what

519
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: are the similarities and the differences between where you are

520
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: now and where you were then? Once you has felled,

521
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: do you feel like you have the skills to deal

522
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 1: with another shoe dropping? Because it can bring shoes all

523
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: your life, And for me, it's about how we allow

524
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,479
Speaker 1: our self space to pivot. It's not a failure that

525
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: the other shoe fell. It sort of reminds me of

526
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 1: what Dr JEDDA. Robinson would say about like anticipatory grief.

527
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: You can anticipate it all day, you can worry about

528
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: it in advance and plan for it in advance, but

529
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: when it actually happens, it's still going to hit different.

530
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: I can plan for to move it aside and allow

531
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: myself to live to be in the moment and to

532
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: enjoy the things that bring me joy, To hone in

533
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: on my desires and live a life that is full

534
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: of pleasure, to do things that I actually enjoy doing

535
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: and wanting to share that with the people around me,

536
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: because that anticipatory peace that I'm going to live with

537
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: This other shoe to drop stops you from living in

538
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: the moment, stops you from being present, stops you from

539
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: having the experiences that you actually want to have. So

540
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: we will wrap up here because I know you have

541
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: to get back to your evening. We will of course

542
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: be staying too for everything else that will unfold this season.

543
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: It's always such a pleasure catching up with Dr oriole

544
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: Will to chat about one of our favorite shows. To

545
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: learn more about her and her work, be sure to

546
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: visit the show notes, and don't forget to text two

547
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: of your girls and tell them to check out the

548
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: episode as well. If you're looking for a therapist in

549
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory

550
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And

551
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: if you want to continue digging into this topic or

552
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: just be in community with other sisters, come on over

553
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: and join us. In the Sister Circle. It's our cozy

554
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: corner of the Internet, design just for black women. You

555
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: can join us at community dot therapy for black girls

556
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: dot com. Thank you all so much for joining me

557
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: again this week. I look forward to continue in this

558
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: conversation with you all real soon. Take it care, M