1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Hey, it's Alec. We all love true crime podcasts, but 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: perhaps you're looking for something a little different, less murder, 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: more intrigue. I invite you to check out a new 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: podcast I just released called Art Fraud. It's the true 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: story of one of New York City's oldest and most 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: trusted galleries dealing in world class art, and how its 7 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: doors would close forever in the wake of an unprecedented scandal. 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: The art market is ripe for cons because it's inherently subjective. 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: I just couldn't even look at it because it was 10 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: so garish and so not by Rothcoe. We're talking about 11 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: eighty million dollars in fake paintings, or more precisely, forgeries. 12 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: All episodes of Art Fraud are available right now. Okay, 13 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: here's our show. This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening 14 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing from My Heart Radio. In the 15 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: aftermath of Jeffrey Epstein's death, the world turned its attention 16 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: to the trial of his associate, Gilain Maxwell. Maxwell, it seems, 17 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: is the last hope for resolution and accountability in a 18 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: case with so many missing pieces. My guest today, Vicky Ward, 19 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: is the perfect person to shed some light on the 20 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: questions that remain. She's a New York Times bestselling author 21 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: and investigative reporter who has covered Jeffrey Epstein and Gilain 22 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: Maxwell since two thousand two. Ward has a long history 23 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: as a columnist and feature writer at The New York Post, 24 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: Huff Post, and Vanity Fair. She's written books about New 25 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: York real estate, the financial sector, and most recently, the 26 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: White House and Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump's path to 27 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: occupying it. Last year, she reported from the Maxwell trial 28 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: in her sub stack News that of Vicky Ward Investigates, 29 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: and now she brings us up to speed on the 30 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: results of two decades of reporting as the host and 31 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: producer on Chasing Gillaine, a podcast and documentary series on Discovery. 32 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: Vicky Ward and I spoke about her entry point into 33 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: the world of Jeffrey Epstein, long before the world would 34 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: come to know his secrets. Well, it actually is twenty 35 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: years only because I began reporting on him in the 36 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: fall of two thousand and two, and the reason for 37 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: that was actually because I was pregnant with twins and 38 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: it was a high risk pregnancy, and I had been 39 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: doing a lot of work on the West Coast. Actually 40 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: prior to that, but my doctors didn't want me flying 41 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: too much. And Jeffrey Epstein's name came up in page 42 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: six of the New York Post. And this was a 43 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: man who, despite the fact that he lived in what 44 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: was said to be the biggest town house in New York, 45 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: he was known by then to have his own island 46 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: and the Caribbean, known to have a big ranch. Nobody 47 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: knew anything about him. No one knew how he had 48 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: made his money. He wasn't someone whose name appeared in 49 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: the financial press. He was like Gatsby. He was a 50 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: mystery figure. So Graydon Carter said to me, you know, 51 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: I've heard about this guy for years. I have no 52 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: idea where all his money came from. He's an enigma. 53 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: He lives in New York. You live in New York, 54 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: you're pregnant. This is the perfect moment. Go find out 55 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: how he made his money. And that's how it all began. Now, 56 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: when you approach him, what was the template for what 57 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: you wanted to do in the beginning. So I absolutely 58 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: reached out to him straight away, not least because you 59 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: know one of the differences, but acute twenty years ago 60 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: at it. When you report for Vanity Fair as opposed 61 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: to same reporting for The New Yorker or the New 62 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: York Times is that pictures really matter. And as reporters 63 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: for Anti Fair, we were all trained to sort of 64 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: remember that if you had great words and no great photographs, 65 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: that's a New Yorker article you may not run in 66 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: Vanity Fair. And so access is really critical. So absolutely 67 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: I reached out to him. You know, I did a 68 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: clipping search on him. There was almost nothing. He was 69 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: like the invisible man, and so I knew that my 70 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: best bet initially was to try and charm him, try 71 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 1: and persuade him to answer my questions, and at the 72 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 1: very least, because he was reluctant, was to get from 73 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: him a list of people who he thought might wanted 74 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: to talk about him and might say whatever it is 75 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: he wanted to say about himself. It was. It was 76 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: a start. The man of mystery who there's almost there's 77 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: little to know record of him, but a man who 78 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: was this type of cipher if you will, What pitch 79 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: did you make? How did you get him to come 80 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: out of his shell and talk? Wow? It was so 81 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: I perhaps had an advantage in that he did some 82 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: homework on me, and I think what he found out 83 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: about me frightened him. I mean, he told me that 84 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: he had a dossier on me and my then husband, 85 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: and in some ways I wasn't a complete stranger to 86 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: his world. My then husband's boss and step uncle was 87 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: someone who knew Jeffrey, who knew Gillen Maxwell pretty well. 88 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: I knew Gillen Maxwell socially, but not well. So you know, 89 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: I had a reputation back then as being the kind 90 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: of journalist that if they came knocking on your door, 91 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 1: it probably wasn't because I wanted to write a puff 92 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: piece about you, and so I think he gathered that 93 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: quite quickly. The reason I say that to you is 94 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: one of the first things he said to me was, Okay, 95 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 1: you know, let's let's play chess. You'd be white, you 96 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: get the first move. I mean, he was ready to 97 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: do battle. And also at the very beginning, I ran 98 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 1: into Gillen Maxwell at a baby shower on the Upper 99 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: East Side of New York and I had heard I've 100 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: done enough reporting to know that they were in some 101 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: sort of bizarre relationship that she was supposed to be 102 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: obsessed with him. It was not reciprocated I didn't know 103 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 1: much more than that, but I didn't think that point 104 00:06:55,760 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: in my reporting that a piece about Epstein's money would 105 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: involve her. She studiously avoided me at that baby show, 106 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: but I think she had to walk past me on 107 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,559 Speaker 1: her way out, and I said, I'm sure you've heard. 108 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: I'm doing this fancy fair piece on on Jeffrey and 109 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: his money, but as of yet, I found no reason 110 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: to call you. And she started to cry. That was 111 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: totally bewildering to me, and sort of still crying, she 112 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: left the room. And I did wonder at that point 113 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: what on earth that was all about. But you know, 114 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: it was quite clear that Jeffrey Epstein viewed me as 115 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: a sort of hostile incoming missile. And then, you know, 116 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: the next bizarre thing that happened was that James Caine, 117 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: who's just died, the CEO of bear Sterns. Then an 118 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: investment bank, phoned me at home on my landline. And 119 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: I hadn't yet reached out to Jimmy Caine. He was 120 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: on a list of people that I wanted to speak 121 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: to you, because what was known about Jeffrey Epstein is 122 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: that he had worked for I think from memory six 123 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: or seven years at bear Sterns and then abruptly left, 124 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: and that there was a bit of a mystery as 125 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: to why he had left, but that you know, Jimmy 126 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: Caine was somebody he got very very close to whilst 127 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: at that bag. So when Jimmy Caine phones me up 128 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: and says, can you come and see me this afternoon, unprompted, 129 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: you know, that was a sign that sort of Jeffrey 130 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: Epstein was was going on the offensive here. You know, 131 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: it's not normal for the CEO of an investment back 132 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: to phone a channelist unsolicited and say can you get 133 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: over here, and then spend all afternoon trying to tell 134 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: me what an amazing guy Jeffrey Epstein was, you know, 135 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: so something was clearly really wrong now to get to 136 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: Gillen for a moment. It seems that everywhere you look 137 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: in the in the Epstein case, people are being threatened. 138 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: There's threats. You were threatened. And when I'm wondering, is 139 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 1: did Maxwell even attempt to make that defense ins the 140 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: Epstein threatened her if you don't go out and recruit 141 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: these girls from me, you're going to be taken down 142 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: and somebody there was none of that. There wasn't Alec. Actually, 143 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: that's the big question mark that was left hanging over 144 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: that trial. You know, I was in the courtroom every 145 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: day of testimony and in some pre trial hearings. You know, 146 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: we didn't get to hear the Gillen Maxwell story. And 147 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: if what you say were to be true, you would 148 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: have thought that that's a that's a pretty good defense, right, 149 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: But they kept very far away from the narrative that 150 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: she was any kind of victim of his. Her narrative 151 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,839 Speaker 1: was that she's not guilty. And I think what you 152 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: start saying, well, I'm a victim, then you're admitting some 153 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: kind of guilt. And the two very big question marks 154 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: that came out of that trial regarding her was why 155 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: did he wire her approximately thirty million dollars over a 156 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: period of time. It's a huge amount of money for 157 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: someone to work someone they're not married to, not related to. 158 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: And why did she stay with him for over a 159 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: decade in a relationship that clearly was at times unkind 160 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: and cruel. I mean we heard how he treat you, 161 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: cheated on her, how the butler in Palm Beach took 162 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: down photographs of her when he had other women coming 163 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: to stay to me Epstein threatening people. It seemed likely 164 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: that she could turn over that card in court because 165 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: that's consistent behavior for Epstein. It was documented that Epstein 166 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: threatened people, bribed people, that he would go to many 167 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: lengths to cover up his tracks. And as you just said, 168 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: to say I was a victim is to admit I 169 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: did something. I did something under duress. And she tried 170 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: to say something. If I'm following you correctly, she tried 171 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: to say in court I didn't do anything. Is that 172 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: what was that the case? That is exactly what she said. 173 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 1: I I am completely innocent. I didn't do anything. And 174 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, I think that although obviously the defense is 175 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: not obliged to put her on the stand, it's up 176 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: to the government. They have the burden of proof. Nonetheless, 177 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: I think that there just were too many question marks 178 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: in a way that were left hanging there for the 179 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: jury to not quote unquote use their common sense, which 180 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: is what Maureen Comey, the lead prosecutor, told them to do. 181 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: And she said, look at that money. Who gets paid 182 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: thirty million dollars and look at the fact that this 183 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: woman sticks with this man. And you could see from 184 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: the photographs that were shown the sort of the aging process, 185 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: how they aged, and and so even though you heard 186 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: these stories the sort of poor behavior by Epstein as 187 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: a boyfriend to Maxwell, she's still there. And you know, 188 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: I think for the jury to have swung to her favor, 189 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: she actually needed to tell a story that was believable, 190 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: and she didn't. Now, of course, my friends, a couple 191 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: in particular, the word they coined for me is conspira noiak. 192 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: They say that I'm a conspira noiak. I'm very keen 193 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: on a handful of really what I consider great conspiracy theories. 194 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: And the first thing I thought to myself when Epstein 195 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: turned up dead, the one thing that is just like 196 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: a light pulsing in the in the distance all the 197 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: time that never goes off, is what happened to all 198 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: the material that was in his town house, or in 199 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 1: his Palm Beach house, or in any of his holmes, 200 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: that were the CDs and the recorded material. If any 201 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: of these people of his guests quote unquote having sex 202 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: in his house with these underaged people, are these recruited people. Now, 203 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: so he turns up dead. You know, the FBI had 204 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: rated that house in New York, and I'm sure I'm 205 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: sure if there's anything to be had there, they've got it. 206 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: Where is it? Do you believe there is such stuff? 207 00:12:55,520 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: And where is it? So, first of all, there are 208 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people who think that the circumstances under 209 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: which Jeffrey Epstein died, including his own defense team. You know, 210 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: I don't think we've heard the last of that. I 211 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 1: don't think you're a conspiraoid to suggest something strange went on, 212 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: and I think we have not heard the last of that. 213 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: And I don't say that based on speculation. I say 214 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: that based on something I know, the question of tapes. 215 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: Where are they? So one of the really I found 216 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: shocking moments of testimony in the Maxwell trial was actually 217 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: from the FBI who raided Epstein's house in New York. 218 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: Because what happened, I mean they described it to us. 219 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: They went in around five o'clock in the afternoon, they 220 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: spent all night, they took pictures of everything, they had 221 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: it all labeled, and then they left it there. And 222 00:13:55,600 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: they left it there. They're killing me, I'm not. I 223 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: think it was absolutely astonishing because they didn't have the 224 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: right warrant to take it out. So three days goes 225 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: by before they return, Oh, it's not there. That would 226 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: be a great scene, would be a great scene in 227 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: the movie, is there's a guy that's like, there's a 228 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: guy that's a property manager. He's there in the vestibule 229 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: of the house. And the FBI says, now, whatever you do, 230 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: don't take your eyes off these boxes. We've got the 231 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: wrong warrant and we're gonna be back in a few 232 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: days with the right warrant. And if this stuff were 233 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: to disappear, it would have such a dileterious effect on 234 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: the case. It would ruin the case, our case against Epstein. 235 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: Whatever you do, don't remove these boxes that I mean, 236 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: how the hell does this happen? It was just remarkable 237 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: and would on the stat you know, the testimony was 238 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: given by the FBI agents. They go back, the stuff 239 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: is missing. They phone up Epstein's lawyers and say, could 240 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: you bring it back? Well, I mean, okay, the and 241 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: that that the lawyers bring it back and it's their 242 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: beliefs that everything was given back. But I mean, by god, 243 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: who the heck really does To the extent you can 244 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: say in your work covering Maxwell Uh covering Epstein years ago, 245 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: did he record people having sex in his house. According 246 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: to my sources, yes he did, and in the recording 247 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: of those and is that what got him killed? I mean, 248 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: this is an obvious question. I'm sorry to accellent tried question, 249 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: but I mean, does Epstein become somebody who everybody wants 250 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: them dead? Democrat, Republican, doesn't matter, and does Epstein becomes 251 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: somebody who it's better for a lot of people that 252 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: he's dead, famous people, Well, it's yes, and not necessarily 253 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: just Americans. I mean, I mean, you know, if you've 254 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: listened to the podcast or watch the documentary series in 255 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: there are all sorts of series that come out, and 256 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: I try and explain it why some sources are more 257 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: credible than others. There are a lot of people who 258 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: would have been glad to see jeff Re Epstein dead. Right. Absolutely, 259 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: the question of those tapes, you know, we have this 260 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: guy aribaminashe who's got credibility problems, saying he thinks the 261 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: Israeli government has them. I don't know. All I do 262 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: know is that that it's amazing to me that there 263 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: was a three day area between the FBI rated Jeffrey 264 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: Epstein's house when those tapes that got taken out and 265 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: supposedly put back. It's just astonishing. Do you think that 266 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: she has because she have a fear she's gonna get 267 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: killed in prison too? Because if because if that's the case, 268 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: if the FBI leaves the boxes in the hallway for 269 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: three days and they disappear, if Epstein's dead, she's one 270 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: of the last people with the real dope on Epstein. 271 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: And thus all the of Epstein's guests. I'm of the 272 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: belief that Epstein was murdered because he had information We're 273 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: going to bring down the high end the money on 274 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: both sides of the aisle. Does she you think she 275 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: has that fear and that that would be maybe speculation 276 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: on your part. And I wonder how someone who was 277 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: in prison guards against that no pun intended. How did 278 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: they communicate their lawyers saying this person needs special protection. 279 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: We don't want to end up like Epstein. You know 280 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: what I mean? Well, the only thing I mean, look 281 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: is that I have asked former assistant U S Attorneys 282 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: for the Southern District about this, and thereof the view 283 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: that what happened to Jeffrey Epstein was extremely unfortunate and 284 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: that the powers that be are going to go out 285 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,719 Speaker 1: of their way to ensure that that doesn't happen again. 286 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: So I think she'll be very closely, really closely watched. 287 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: I mean, imagine if that was to happen again. Her 288 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: demeanor in court, it was really fascinating to behold. She 289 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: didn't look like somebody who was in the fight for 290 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: her life. She didn't look like somebody who thought she 291 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: was in the wrong. I mean, it was almost as 292 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: if this was her show and the rest of us 293 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: we're all in it. She was incredibly tactile with her lawyers, 294 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: who obviously had become extremely fond of her. You know, 295 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: she didn't come in with shackles or anything like that. 296 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: She had her bottle of Fiji water. She didn't look malnourished. 297 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: Her hair was dyed black and shoulder length, and you know, 298 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: when her lawyers had to leave the room for sidebars 299 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: with the judge, she would actually turn around a quite 300 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: brazenly stare at all of us. At one point she 301 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: sketched the court artist. This was a woman who seemed confident. 302 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: Maybe the wrong word, but she wasn't on the defensive. 303 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: Put it that way. She wasn't on the defensive. Whereas 304 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: you know, I was in court when Jeffrey Epstein was 305 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 1: sitting there and was denied bail, and his body language 306 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: was different. He was he was rattled journalist Vicky Ward. 307 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: If you enjoy conversations with tenacious journalists breaking the biggest stories, 308 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: check out our episode with Pulitzer Prize winning reporters Megan 309 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: Tooey and Jody Canter, who broke the Harvey Weinstein scandal. 310 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: So when Megan and I were on the phone, she 311 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: suggested a kind of argument that she had used with 312 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: victims in the past, which is to say to them 313 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: very early in the conversation, look, I can't change what's 314 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: happened to you in the past, but if we work together, 315 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: maybe we can take the pain that you experienced and 316 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: put it to some constructive purpose that will help other people. 317 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: Because it's the best reason to talk to a journalist. 318 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: You are doing this to have a constructive impact on society. 319 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: It is. It may be very difficult, but our goal 320 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: is to do something that you can eventually feel very 321 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: proud of. To hear more of my converse station with 322 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: authors and New York Times journalist Megan Tooey and Jodie Canter, 323 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: go to our archives and here's the thing. Dot Org. 324 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 1: After the break, Vicky Ward shares with us the time 325 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: she felt her life was in danger from Jeffrey Epstein himself. 326 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. 327 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: Many who watched the Gillain Maxwell trial felt a sense 328 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: of relief and closure from the guilty verdict, but following 329 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: the trial, when a juror disclosed the press that he 330 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: shared personal experiences of child sexual abuse with his fellow 331 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: jurors during deliberations, it throw open the possibility of a 332 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: potential mistrial. It is extraordinary, right, what's happened with this jura. 333 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: We don't yet know what Judge Nathan is going to do, 334 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: but it will be taken very seriously. And you know 335 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: what's interesting is that one of her lawyers, Christian ever Adele, 336 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: was the prosecutor who ultimately put away al Chapo. But 337 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: I believe in El Chapo that was also a mistrial 338 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: because of a juror who turned out to have made 339 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: a mistake. So the one thing, you know, how this 340 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: juror got through is a question we need to see unfold. 341 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: We need answers to if we can, and we ought 342 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: to get some I mean, I will say that Judge 343 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: Nathan ran that courtroom with an iron rod. She must 344 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: be furious that this has happened, but it was but 345 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: it was her. She didn't have to let the jurors 346 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: say anything. She's not obligated to do that. She chose 347 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: to tell the jurors that they could speak if they wished, 348 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: so to some degree, this is on her. It's like 349 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: it's like Robert Kraft going to his little stopping shop 350 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 1: and massage parlor there and being recorded and him being acquitted, 351 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: I believe, and the evidence destroyed. All the evidence. He's acquitted, 352 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: but the evidence of him doing what he's doing is destroyed. 353 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: It's interesting to me how the Maxwell case, the Epstein 354 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: case that eventually the women are heard. Let's give these 355 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: women their day in court, and and and they're heard, 356 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: and they're believed, and it leads to something. But one 357 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: thing that's going to lead to is we've got to 358 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: destroy this evidence. That Epstein and Maxwell are a prism 359 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: through which you can see this sort of behavior on 360 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: behalf of all these celebrities, or what happened. I mean, 361 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 1: I'm somebody who I had people. I mean, I I 362 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: endured online months of people writing to me online saying, 363 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: you know, you're in Epstein's book. You're a petto, You're 364 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: a peto. And I'm like, well, I'm in Epstein's book, 365 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: like his dry cleaner is in his book, like his 366 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 1: tree repair stories, and it I mean, I never met 367 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: Epstein in my life. And number he's got a number 368 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: which is what we call in my office, we called 369 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: the dummy line. That's the number we give and we 370 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: don't want you to have our number. And and people 371 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: go on from there. They're like, you know, you went 372 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: down to the island, you were on his plane. You 373 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: win his flight log. I'm like, no, actually, I wasn't 374 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: on the flight log. And then then we come to 375 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: where we are now where this this this ability of 376 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:29,479 Speaker 1: them to protect his guests, to protect So that was 377 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: the big frustration of the trial, which is, you know, 378 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: where are all the men. There was a whole system 379 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: going on, and it was referred to sort of frustratingly 380 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: fleeting Lee when they talked about some of the names 381 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,479 Speaker 1: on the planes and you know some of the people 382 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: that Jeffrey Epstein was photographed with. You know, I didn't 383 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: know that he had met with Fidel Castro. I have 384 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 1: to say that was new, and I didn't know about 385 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: the pope. That was a whole new one as well. 386 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: But the men who are presumably the ones on the 387 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: c ds have disappeared from this story. And without the men, 388 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 1: there would have been no enterprise because and I'm not 389 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: just talking about the sex. I'm talking about the money. 390 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: We still don't know where Jeffrey Epstein's money came from. 391 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 1: But what is you know, has always drupped me as 392 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 1: really interesting is that I have not found anyone who 393 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: knew Jeffrey Epstein in the nineteen eighties, when he had 394 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: relatively little money, lived in a studio apartment in New York, 395 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: that ever saw any evidence of this kind of behavior. 396 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 1: He had normal girlfriends of a normal age. I mean 397 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: they may have been in their twenties and sort of 398 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: model types, but there was nothing that unusual about that. 399 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,120 Speaker 1: It's only when he gets all this money very quickly 400 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,719 Speaker 1: and he builds the shangri las, these dens of iniquity, 401 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: and he stops going out and instead the world comes 402 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: to him. And it's not just the girls who come 403 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: to him, you know, these very powerful men. He holds 404 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: these salons inside his houses. He takes them on his planes. 405 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: It's all hidden from view. And you know, it seems 406 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 1: to be that the men and the money and the 407 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 1: money that propped up this massive In the end, it 408 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: was we know, it was a global enterprise. He had 409 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 1: pictures of Mohammed bin Salman, the Saudi, cried Prince on 410 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: the Wall. He talked about doing business with African dictators. 411 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: He had an apartment in Paris, which is where he 412 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: would meet with them. So that whole aspect of this 413 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: is still in the dark, and you know, it's to 414 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 1: me is a critical part of this. And what I'm 415 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: hoping is that the investigation that's going on the US 416 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: virgin Islands is investigating the Epstein estate, that that will 417 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: produce a money trail of sorts. I'm hoping that that 418 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: maybe some of the I mean, who knows what's going 419 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 1: to come out. If the Virginia Roberts Geoffrey suit gets 420 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: Prince Andrew goes forward, if anything will come out of that. 421 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 1: The other suit that might be very interesting is the 422 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: suit between David Boys and Alan Dershowitz, two legal titans 423 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 1: who have really looked heads on all of this and 424 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 1: are trying to get the each other and the and 425 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: the vice versa, and as of now they're headed to trial, 426 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: and Dershowitz certainly wants Leslie Wexner, who we know was 427 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: a patron of Jeffrey Epstein's, to take the stand. So 428 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: you know, again it's not over. I mean, I really 429 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: hope it's not over. Let me let me ask you 430 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: three quick questions, because I don't want to lose these topics. Now, 431 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: Epstein eventually threatens you. Correct, Yeah, I didn't take him 432 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: very long. How long after you've been talking to him 433 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: regularly for a couple of months? Correct, So he got 434 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: wind of the fact that I must have spoken to somebody. 435 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: I don't uh. What had actually happened was I went 436 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: to see Steve Hoffenburg, who was doing time in prison 437 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: in Devon's, Massachusetts, sentenced to twenty years for committing the 438 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: biggest Ponzi scheme in American history before Bernie made off. Now, 439 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: what Hoffenburg told me inside that prison was that, in fact, 440 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: it was Jeffrey Epstein's Ponzi scheme, and that Jeffrey had 441 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: very cleverly managed to manipulate the legal system that had 442 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 1: all fallen on Hoffenburg. He wasn't able to prove any 443 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,199 Speaker 1: of this but he also explained to me where I 444 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: could find various sec depositions that Jeffrey had given that 445 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: would show me that he was not everything he pretended 446 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: to be, that he wasn't just this brilliant money manager 447 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: for billionaires that he had in fact had a very 448 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: checkered end to his career at best Terns. And Hoffenberg 449 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: also told me that he had leverage overs bear Sterns, 450 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: he knew various secrets. And so after that meeting, I 451 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: did go and I did pull an sec deposition of 452 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: that Epstein had given. I went and found another deposition 453 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: that he'd given in the archives of a law firm 454 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania. Because I was pregnant, I wasn't allowed ben Dover, 455 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: so I had to have an assistant from Fancy Fair 456 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 1: come with me. And we got very lucky because in fact, 457 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: what we found what we needed in the first box 458 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 1: that we came across, and we each had to we 459 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: weren't allow write anything down, We had to remember what 460 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: was in it. Well. I kept from Epstein until sort 461 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: of the the eleventh that was that I had met 462 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: these two sisters, Annie Farmer, who just gave testimony in 463 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: the Maxwell case, who said that she had been sixteen 464 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: when she'd had this absolutely horrible weekend stuck alone with 465 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: Epstein and Gillen Maxwell in New Mexico. A Maria Farmer, 466 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: her sister who had looked for Jeffrey Epstein for I 467 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: think nearly a year in her twenties before something also 468 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,719 Speaker 1: completely horrible happened in Ohio. But I think once I 469 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: started to ask questions about the money, I sort of 470 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: waited till the end to ask him about the farmers, 471 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: he began to really really push back and go into 472 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: hyper gear about well, one with the threats. You know, 473 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: I've got this dossier. I'm going to sue you personally. 474 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to have my witch doctor place 475 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: a curse on your children, you know, asking me very 476 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: invasive questions about my body, where I was giving birth, 477 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,479 Speaker 1: and who my doctors were, and but also then really 478 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: pushing it was at that point, you know, he wanted 479 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: me to speak to Les Wexner all of a sudden, 480 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: because he thought that the more famous or important people 481 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: he could get on the phone to me, the more 482 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: I would back down, that I would see that I 483 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: must be I must be out of my mind like 484 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: the bear Stearns phone call, right, you know, I just 485 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: I kept going. I mean, ultimately I got somebody who 486 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: had been on the executive committee at best Terns to 487 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,239 Speaker 1: tell me to be confident in what I had from 488 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: the documents that in fact, Jeffrey Epstein had been up 489 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: to no good and as it turned out, so to 490 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: Jimmy Caine, and as Greenberg hadn't been spotless either, which 491 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: is why Jeffrey Epstein left and had some leverage over them. Now, 492 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: one other thing that occurred to me, and I want 493 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: to approach this with the proper amount of sensitivity to this, 494 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: which is not everybody who's making a charge of sexual 495 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: assault has created equal You have people who are making 496 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: a claim and they and they have a lot of evidence. 497 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: What is the young woman's namers have pronounced Giffrey, Virginia Roberts, Giffrey. 498 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: I'm wondering during the trial, during your coverage, did you 499 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: think for a moment it was ever suggested that all 500 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: of the grooming quote unquote that was alluded to and 501 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: was testified about, which is, you know, horrific, But was 502 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: it ever mentioned by the defense that these women specifically 503 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,719 Speaker 1: I want to attribute this to the defense that these 504 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: women could have walked out the door at any given time. 505 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: None of them were held against their will. Were they 506 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: no or their families threatened if they left the compound 507 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: and didn't do what they were asked to do. No. 508 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: The defense's strategy was not to get into that, and 509 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: in fact, the prosecution even let the witnesses lean in 510 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: two the fact that they kept one they wanted to 511 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: come back. You know, one case Caroline, who was the 512 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: only accuser around whom the sex trafficking charges were based, 513 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: and the sex trafficking charges are carried the longest sentence, 514 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: She was very clear that she was so desperate financially, 515 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: so addicted to drugs. I mean, it was a tragic 516 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: story that she fact, the worst moment when she was 517 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: eighteen was when Jeffrey Epstein said, actually, we're too old 518 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: for me. She came back and back and back. So 519 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: I would say it was the reverse. What what the 520 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: defense tried to do and what made this trial very 521 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: different from the Harvey Weinstein trial, Bill Cosby, all the 522 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: all the sexual abuse trials that we've had recently, is 523 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: that because the FBI and prosecutors were initially not going 524 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: after Gillen, Maxwell they were focused on Jeffrey Epstein. These 525 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: women had all given interviews in the last three years 526 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: to the FBI about Jeffrey Epstein and the problem. And 527 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: what was useful for the defense was that they may 528 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: have either not mentioned Gillen Maxwell at all in those interviews, 529 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: or they may have not said they can't remember what 530 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: she was doing, or they may have said no, I 531 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: don't think she was in the room, because they were 532 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: focused on somebody else. And that's what complicated I think 533 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: this trial. The prosecution obviously pointed out, well, memories change. 534 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: These are not verbatim recordings their notes. But that's what 535 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: the defense lead into. What they didn't lead into was, um, yeah, 536 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: these these girls really really wanted the money. Yeah they didn't. 537 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: They didn't lead into that. If anything, the prosecution did 538 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: because they were they were children. I was working on 539 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: a film once. The director of the film, who was 540 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: an older man, he was he was older, he was 541 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: in the seventies, he employed two women as extras on 542 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: the set of the film, and they were prostitutes. It 543 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: really is the money. I mean, it's like shattering what 544 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: lengths they got for money. Well, when Caroline stood up 545 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: and gave her testimony. Her life story was I think 546 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: just tragic. Are just deep, deeply, deeply, deeply upsetting to 547 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: hear you a child at sixteen then having to work 548 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 1: off post Jeffrey Epstein as a stripper and an escort, 549 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: and you know she when she she fell apart under 550 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: aggressive defense cross examination. But I think that everyone in 551 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: that courtroom just felt so incredibly sorry that anybody should 552 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: have to be in that position that there's nothing left 553 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: to sell except their body. It was, it was awful. 554 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,760 Speaker 1: Do you think Epstein killed himself? I think that whatever happened, 555 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,320 Speaker 1: he had help. Whatever happened, he didn't do it by himself. 556 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,720 Speaker 1: Vicky Ward, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend 557 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: and be sure to follow. Here's the thing on the 558 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get 559 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 1: your podcasts. When we come back the key, Ward tries 560 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: to shed some light on Jeffrey Epstein's appeal to socialite 561 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 1: Gilain Maxwell. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to hear 562 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: the thing. Metropolitan Correctional Centered guards Toven Noel and Michael 563 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:31,280 Speaker 1: Thomas discovered Jeffrey Epstein's unresponsive body. Their desk was fifteen 564 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: feet away from Epstein's cell, and they somehow missed their 565 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: rounds between ten thirty pm and six thirty am, leaving 566 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 1: Epstein alone for eight hours. It was revealed that the 567 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: guards had falsified records certifying they had performed their duties, 568 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: and yet charges against them were dropped. In December, Vicky 569 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: Ward shared her thoughts on this development. I have wanted 570 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: that I have said there and I were, But the 571 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: moment the Maxwell trial finished, I read a little tidy 572 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: story in the newspaper somewhere saying that all charges against 573 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: those guards had been dropped, like buried. To prosecute them 574 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: would invite more discovery material people want to keep secret. Right. 575 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: I do have a very reliable source on this, and 576 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: I think that that story is not it's not over right. 577 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I think what's so shocking about 578 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: this is that, you know, Maxwell, when you look at 579 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 1: her on the outside, you see pictures of her, she 580 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: seems very winning. She's this attractive. You know, at first 581 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: she's a very young woman and she's a bit older. 582 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: She's got her arm around Epstein, their dear friends, and 583 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: there's no way she could downplay her relationship with Epstein. 584 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: The photographic evidence is like a family album. She's hugging 585 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: him and rubbing up against him or what have you, 586 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: regardless of their relationship, and you look at her and 587 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: you think, how the hell did this woman with her 588 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 1: connections and her family. Yes, her father was a scoundrel 589 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: and he dies under these very h strange circumstances. But 590 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: you just need to yourself, how does someone like her? 591 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: How does she end up in this mess? How does 592 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: she end up her life being destroyed by this relationship 593 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: with this man? What did Epstein have? Was Epstein this 594 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: bon vivant, raconteur, elegant, sophisticated, funny. Why do you think 595 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:43,240 Speaker 1: people were loyal to Epstein? Beyond blackmail? What did he have? Well, 596 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: it's interesting what you say about GILLN. Maxwell is completely true, 597 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 1: and it was funny. I was. I was taking an 598 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: interview with the BBC. A new Epstein accuser had just 599 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 1: come forward, and she was describing meeting Gilenn Maxwell, and 600 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 1: she described her as electrifying um and Gilen Maxwell was 601 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: electrifying and she was much I mean, she was everything 602 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: that Jeffrey Epstein wasn't. But I found Jeffrey at swe 603 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,879 Speaker 1: crass vulgar, a bully, a thug, but he was rich. 604 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: And you know, many people who were at Oxford with 605 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:23,800 Speaker 1: Gilen Maxwell have asked the same question, what on earth 606 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: was she doing with him? I do know that in 607 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: Britain they are now going back, certainly various documentary companies 608 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: and are going to really really dig into the life 609 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: of her father, because there's clearly something very messed up 610 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:49,399 Speaker 1: about someone who you know, prizes money so much that 611 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 1: she's willing to do the kinds of things that we 612 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,240 Speaker 1: heard in that courtroom, and that that was the story 613 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: that the prosecution laid out. And this was a woman who, 614 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 1: if anybody could have got out and made something of 615 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 1: themselves by themselves. She had the roller decks, she had 616 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 1: the ability. Why on earth, I have asked, did she 617 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: just not go out and get a job when her 618 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: dad died? But she had grown up spoiled, used to 619 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 1: all these trappings with money that was stolen, and you know, 620 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: when you have to remember that her father's you know, 621 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: millions were actually fraudulent. It was a facade right from 622 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: the beginning. And you know, I suspect that she very 623 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: cold bloodedly calculated that the route to power, particularly in 624 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: America is through money, and that's what Jeffrey Epstein had. 625 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: And also you see quite often people who have money 626 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: and lose money, they have to go back, well, they 627 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,760 Speaker 1: have to, they have to go down a few natches. 628 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: I've seen this so often, and they sit there and 629 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: they go. You know, it's like Scarlett O'Hara, as God 630 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: is my judge, I'll never go hungry again. You know 631 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,959 Speaker 1: these people, as God is my judge, I'll never live 632 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: off of less than eight figures again. You know that 633 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: once you have that level of wealth and privileges, private planes, 634 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: life is just so much easier. Life is just so 635 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: much more convenient. I'm not standing in line at the 636 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: airport of the baggage claimed with a bunch of trolls. 637 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 1: Once you have that and you lose it, you'll pretty 638 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: much go to any lengths to get it back. And 639 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: when you get it back, you're like, I'm never gonna 640 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do whatever it takes to stay here now 641 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,319 Speaker 1: because I went down to the basement and I hate it. 642 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 1: What are you working on next? Is it a book 643 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: or is it a podcast or is it a documentary? 644 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: Because have you fallen in love with the two latter formats. 645 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: Have you've grown fond of documentary filmmaking, I have. I'm 646 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,879 Speaker 1: doing all three. I'm doing all three. And I've been 647 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: following this story in South Carolina about this family of 648 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 1: lawyers who have been running the low country in South 649 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: Carolina since and how there's been a series of tragedies 650 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: down there, culminating in the very mysterious murder. Yes, I 651 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 1: saw the articles along which which I'm The investigation into 652 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 1: that murder has also led to the investigation into other 653 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,760 Speaker 1: murders that have happened down there. But the bigger picture 654 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,840 Speaker 1: is it's it's really a story about corruption in the 655 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 1: law in South Carolina, and how right now you're seeing 656 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,760 Speaker 1: one group of people being replaced by another group of people. 657 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,759 Speaker 1: The question is is the new group any better than 658 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: the old? I don't know, That's what That's what I'm 659 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: going to go find out. The documentary you had on 660 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: about Maxwell was your first filmed piece. What would you 661 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: say are the advantages that books have over filmed reporting 662 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: and vice versa. What did you find was the advantage 663 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,240 Speaker 1: to filming over writing? Well, it's interesting, you know, we 664 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: we also we filmed the making of the podcast, so 665 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: we did something unusual, so I was I was learning 666 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,279 Speaker 1: how to do a podcast at the same time as 667 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 1: doing the film. There's great value in being able to 668 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: bring viewers into the room with you as you're asking 669 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: the questions, and for viewers to see people's faces, to 670 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: see their reactions very helpful, I think for viewers to 671 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 1: see me push back and say, well, you know, how 672 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 1: do you know this? Do you really know it? It 673 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,719 Speaker 1: was a joy in a way for me to be 674 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: able to take viewers on the journey that I do 675 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 1: all the time, the journalistic journey. That was really fun. 676 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,320 Speaker 1: It was really interesting to learn into in the podcasting 677 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,719 Speaker 1: how telling a story for the ear is not the 678 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,759 Speaker 1: same as writing that. You have to really write episodes 679 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: very thematically, and I learned to very great deal with that. 680 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, I've come away with a 681 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: much clearer idea of what stories lend themselves to certain mediums, 682 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 1: and I think it will be very useful for me 683 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 1: going forward to be able to do all of them. Well, 684 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: let me just say, I live my life looking at 685 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,839 Speaker 1: people and contemplating alternatives. Had they made a monest adjustment 686 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,640 Speaker 1: this way or that way, had they not done this, 687 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: had they gone in this direction, their life would be 688 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 1: completely different, and they make the choices they make it 689 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,280 Speaker 1: now Maxwell as poised to go to prison and maybe 690 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: dye in prison, be in prison for the rest of 691 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: her life, and that's just so, and you think to yourself, 692 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: Good God, it didn't have to be that way, you know. 693 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sympathetic to the victims, but I'm I'm 694 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,239 Speaker 1: saddened for everyone who they allow their life to be 695 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,800 Speaker 1: led in that direction. Do they allow them they destroy 696 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: their own lives that way. So anyway, thank you so much, 697 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Author and journalist Vicky Ward. You 698 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,960 Speaker 1: can find her podcast Catching Gilaine on Audible and her 699 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 1: documentary series of the same name on Discovery. This episode 700 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,760 Speaker 1: was produced by Kathleen Russo, Zack McNeese, and Maureen Hoban. 701 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the 702 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,600 Speaker 1: thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.