WEBVTT - The Good Enough Job with Simone Stolzoff #667 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.960 Welcome to Hod of Money. I'm Joel and I am 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:06.040 Matt and today we're discussing The Good Enough Job with 0:00:06.360 --> 0:00:07.640 Simone stoles Off. 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:29.600 So I'm going to start today's episode a little differently. 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:33.640 Let's start out with a quote. Work will always be work. 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.240 Some people work doing what they love. Other people work 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:39.519 so that they can do what they love when they 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:44.120 are not working. Neither is more noble. This is a 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.160 quote from Simone stoles Off's new book, The Good Enough Job, 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:50.160 that is set to publish here in a couple of weeks, 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.920 and it's actually made by Simone's favorite writer who happens 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:56.920 to be a poet. And after going through this book, 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:58.920 I don't think anything else we could say could actually 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:03.080 encapsulate Simo's book any better. But we are going to 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:05.480 discuss a number of themes from the book, how to 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.240 basically diversify your identity. We're gonna talk about the similarities 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:13.120 between work and religion, or maybe the dissimilarities, uh, the 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.720 false promise of chasing after status. All of this we're 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:16.720 going to discuss. 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:17.240 Today and more. 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:19.760 Simone stoles Off, thank you so much for joining us 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:20.479 on the podcast. 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:21.720 It's a pleasure to be here. 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.520 Guys, we're glad to have you and some of your 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.440 closest friends call you Simo, So we assume just based 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:29.800 on our five minute chat beforehand, we can we're allowed 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:30.080 to call you. 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:31.160 That is that we switching to Semo. 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.000 Yeah, Oh, it's kind of like my cocktail party line. 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:36.600 You know, it's like Simo. It's like Nemo with an S. 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:40.000 You know, awesome. So we'll probably refer to you that 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:42.120 way through a lot of this episode. But Simo, we're 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:43.720 excited to chat with you. And the first question we 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:46.000 ask every guest who comes on the show is what 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:48.200 is their craft beer equivalent? And what we mean by 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:51.000 that is, while you're saving and investing diligently for the future, 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:54.240 what is it that you proactively spend money on that 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:56.840 some people might think is a little weird or you're 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.400 just thrilled to spend money in a certain way while 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:00.440 you're still handling money. 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:05.520 Well, yeah, so my craft beer equivalent isn't the most 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:09.320 expensive purchase. It might pile up if you do it 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:12.120 as frequently as I do. But I am a chocolate 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:15.440 chip cookie fiend. I actually hate a chocolate chip cookie 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:20.640 every single day for four years of college. It's like 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:24.120 become a little bit of like it's like my brand now, 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:26.080 you know, like my friends like me. It's like the 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.640 cookie guy. But I still love them, you know, And 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:31.440 I like I'm not much of like a chocolate chip 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.200 cookie snob, you know, I'm a kind of equal opportunist, 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.720 from the famous amos to the artisanal like eight dollar 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:39.280 cookie that I bought the other day. 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:40.919 Are you baking your own ever? 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:44.000 Sometimes? Yeah, I don't know. I feel like cookies are 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:47.800 kind of like Beatles songs, like even the not great 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:49.040 ones are still like pretty good. 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.440 Feel that way if you're mentioning famous amos in the 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.760 same as like an all, let me come on, who 0:02:57.760 --> 0:02:59.960 can who's actually putting those things down? But I guess 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:01.520 you do not discriminate one. 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.000 Do you ever go off brand like the fake chips 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:05.040 a hole or something like that? 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:06.160 Yeah, I'll do it. 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:06.680 I don't know. 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:11.360 I'm just like easily pleased. It's maybe not best for 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:16.360 like my cultural high brownness, but I like enjoy cookies 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:17.280 in all of their forms. 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:18.440 No, I love it. Okay. 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:20.440 One last question about the cookies. Do you have a 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.960 favorite for lack of better words, adjunct, like, what's something 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.320 that you like in chocolate chip cookies that may not 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:27.360 necessarily be traditional. 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:29.160 And if you say raisins this interviews over. 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:33.440 Now, yeah, I'm a purist. I think I my like 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.160 hotter take literally is that I like under baked cookies. 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.280 I like cookies that still feel like a little gooey 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.760 in the middle, and like the closer that you can 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:46.600 get to the cookie dough spectrum without giving yourself sammonilla. 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:48.200 No, I like that respect. 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:50.480 Yeah, the ability to fold a cookie in half is 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:51.520 better than. 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:54.560 You're getting to like my Italian roots. 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.000 Way, yes, yeah, yeah. 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:58.920 I love it all right. That's somebody loves to have 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:01.480 into your book on it like you. So you say 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.000 that you're recovering workest in the intro it kind of 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:09.400 it almost feels like an AA introduction introduction, honestly, But 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:12.200 talk to us about maybe when it dawned on you 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:15.360 that you were overvaluing the role of work in your 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:16.200 own life, Like, what. 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:18.080 Is it that caused you to reevaluate that? 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.320 Yeah, So, you know, I think we're all about the 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.240 same age, kind of smack in the middle of the 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:28.120 millennial generation. And I think I was raised on certain scripts. 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.479 You know, I grew up with lots of opportunity, which 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:34.560 I'm grateful for, and also this mentality of you know, 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.080 I could sort of do whatever I wanted, and it 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.080 was just a matter of figuring out what particular career 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:43.719 path or what particular job was the best reflection of 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:48.359 my unique passion and personality. And I spent my twenties 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.600 really playing goldilocks with different jobs. I worked in tech 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:54.840 for a few years, and I worked in food for 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.839 a few years, and I worked in journalism for a 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:01.400 few years. And it really came to ahead at a 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:06.680 moment when I was choosing between these two particular jobs. 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:09.640 One was to be a staff writer at a digital 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.640 magazine and the other was to be a designer at 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:16.560 this global design agency. And on one hand, it's like, oh, 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.520 agony is me, you know, like the plight of deciding 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:23.320 between two attractive job authors. But you know, maybe you 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:25.000 guys or some of your listeners have been in a 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:27.560 similar crossroads before, you know, For me, I really didn't 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:31.240 feel like I was choosing between two jobs as much 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:35.520 as I was choosing between two versions of me. And 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:38.920 this sort of like career and decision moment I was 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.360 probably twenty eight or twenty nine really threw me for 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:45.400 an existential loop, and I was wondering, sort of, how 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:49.760 did my identity become so entwined with what I did 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:53.320 for work, what I did to make money? And that 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.360 was sort of the first kernel that led to what 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:59.080 became the research project that eventually became the book. 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:02.760 Nice Well, and yeah, I think probably, Well, I don't know. 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:04.560 Maybe some people have not had that, and they're just 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:06.839 nose to the grindstone and they haven't had that moment 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.320 of reflection. Hopefully this discussion like that we're going to 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:12.920 have today pushes people to have a little bit of 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.160 that at least start to initiate the thought process. Am 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.600 I putting too much effort or identity into my work? 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.359 But can you give us a brief history lesson about 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:24.719 how we got to the point where careers became so 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:28.359 central to our identity, to our existence. It seems like 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:31.159 it didn't used to be that way, and now careers 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:32.880 are kind of all defining in a lot of ways. 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:37.880 Yeah, I mean, there's many different possible ways to answer 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:41.799 this question. And maybe if your last name is Miller, 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.599 you probably condect to differ that. You know, identity and 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:47.960 careers have been tied together for a long time. But 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:51.520 I think there is something that is uniquely American about this, 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.760 and also something that is unique to the last sort 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:56.600 of fifty years or so, and so I think there 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.520 are kind of economic arguments. There's political arguments, there are 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:04.520 social arguments, cultural arguments. The historical one is just the 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:08.080 fact that the Protestant work ethic and capitalism we're really 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:12.200 the two strands that entwine to form our country's DNA. 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:17.760 From the beginning, being American was synonymous with your ability 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:21.400 to be a productive member of society or to be 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:25.680 able to work hard. There's also kind of economic arguments. 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:28.720 I think this really differs depending on what side of 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:32.000 the income spectrum you're looking at. On the sort of 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:35.720 lower earning side, wages have been stagnant for the last 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.520 forty or fifty years, which means that people have had 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:42.720 to work more just to earn the same money to 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.480 buy the same loaf of bread. Has driven a lot 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:47.960 of people to work long hours. On the other side, 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:52.880 there's the tax structure of our country and the way 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:57.000 that employment and healthcare are often tied together that make 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:00.760 the consequences of losing work so dire, and also the 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.960 ability to consolidate wealth with the more hours that you work, 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:09.480 greater abilities to do so. The argument I really focus 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:13.000 on in the book is the sort of subjective or 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:18.000 the cultural value that Americans place on their jobs. You know, 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:21.600 we live in a country that treats CEOs like celebrities, 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.920 and we plaster always do what you love on the 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:28.360 walls of our co working in space. We parade around 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:31.640 our job titles and small talk conversation and on our 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:35.520 social media profiles. And there is really this sense that 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:39.000 you are what you do. And I think that is 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:44.120 unique to a certain extent to this age that we're 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:48.200 in right now. We're work is very much in vogue, 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.640 or maybe in the last three or so years, with 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.720 the pandemic hotly contested about its role in our lives. 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:56.480 Sure, yeah, and you say it's becoming something that is 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:59.440 turning out to be more global, Like it's essentially become 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:02.560 an American export that other countries are now starting to 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.320 follow in our footsteps, sort of like Levi's it's like, 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:06.800 not only do you get the genes, but you also 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:09.040 get our ridiculous work ethic. 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:11.280 But yeah, I mean, I think the way that I 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.439 frame it is like I think workism, which is a 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.600 term that was originally coined by the journalist Derek Thompson 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.280 in the Atlantic. It's the idea of like treating work 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.040 akin to a religious identity. Yeah, the one thing that 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:24.960 you look to is just a paycheck, but also for 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:27.560 totally a community, a sense of self worth, a sense 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:30.920 of purpose in your life. I think it's primarily a 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:36.480 phenomenon that is most prevalent among people that have a 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:40.240 certain level of privilege, you know, college educated Americans, But 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.080 that doesn't mean that it exists. It doesn't exist in 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.560 other countries, it doesn't exist in other sort of class strata. 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:51.320 It just is particularly pronounced for people that have, truthfully 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:53.160 the privilege to be able to choose what they want. 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:54.000 To do totally. 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.080 Yeah, absolutely, And you kind of just touched on something 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:58.880 I was going to follow up there with, which was religion, 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:00.960 because you see that. But one of the problems is 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:03.679 that more folks are trying to get the meaning out 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:05.960 of their job that they used to find in religion. 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.160 And so is a solution Should we just go to synagogue? 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:11.200 Should we just go to church? More? Does that solve 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:14.000 all of our problems? What is the I guess the 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:17.240 problem or the difficulty in finding or putting our faith 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.120 within our jobs, within our careers. 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:23.199 Yeah, I mean, the data on the religiosity of Americans 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.560 is pretty interesting. You know, if you look back to 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:31.240 the height of religiosity in the US and sort of 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:35.960 the nineteen fifties, it's something like six or seven percent 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.760 of Americans weren't religious, and everyone else had a pretty 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:43.080 strong association with an organized religion. And there's been this 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:47.920 precipitous decline in the past forty years where today nearly 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:53.800 one in three almost in the latest data, Americans don't 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:58.120 have a particular religious affiliation, whether they're agnostic or atheist, 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:01.360 or just don't believe in anything in particular. And so, 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:03.600 you know, when you think about the role that religion 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:07.559 plays in people's lives, it is obviously something to believe in, 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:12.520 a potential path to transcendence, but it's also a primary community. 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.400 It's a primary source of your identity. And so with 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:20.000 the decline of these organized religions, the need for belonging 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.440 and for purpose still remains. And the argument that they 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.080 make in the book is that work, for many people 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.600 has taken on that role. But the problem is that 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:33.839 that's not necessarily a burden. Our jobs are designed to bear. 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.200 You know, this is particularly visible in the past few 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:40.839 years with the pandemic. You know, some people, whether it 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:45.040 was due to layoffs or furloughs, lost their jobs, you know, 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:48.240 and if your work is your primary source of identity 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:51.319 and meaning and you lose it, what's left well. 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.880 And even for folks who didn't lose their job, maybe 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:56.760 they started working from home in that connection to the 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:00.360 culture and to the community of work was sever and 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.920 so that kind of changed their relationship how they interacted 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.760 with their work as well. So it was seen more 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.520 as like a I do this for a paycheck when 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.440 I can, and it lost some of its all encompassing nature. 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:13.480 You think that's true too. 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.640 Yeah, definitely. I mean I think regardless of what type 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.280 of work, you had changed in some way in the 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:21.560 past three years. And you know, I started reporting this 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.719 book before the pandemic. I definitely did not anticipate a 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.800 global pandemic helping everyone sort of reconsider their relationship to 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:32.040 their jobs. But it was this huge wake up call 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.880 I think for everyone. You know, their job wasn't exactly 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:37.920 what it used to be. And I think people who 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:41.400 were maybe over indexed and looking to work as a 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.760 source of identity and meaning in their life were left 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:47.240 for a rude awakening, you know. And the main sort 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:48.960 of argument that I make in the book, when it 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:51.400 gets into a little bit more of an editorial section, 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:54.439 is about what you said about the value of diversifying 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:58.120 your identity and sources of meaning beyond just what you 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.240 do for work. You know, this isn't just to protect 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.079 in the case that you get laid off, But I 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.440 think one of the risks of a work centric existence 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.800 is that we can neglect other parts of who we are. 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:11.959 And one other thing I want to follow by I 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:14.120 mentioned how there is a work from home class. I 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:18.240 feel like the pandemic kind of it created dichotomy, right, 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.600 and we saw other people incredibly overworked and theirship their 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:24.280 job changed in a different way if you worked at 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:26.400 a grocery store. My dad, who was stocking shelves in 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:29.400 a grocery store at the ripe old age of sixty eight, 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.080 like that was a different thing, right than what a 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.240 lot of other people experienced. A laptop class to work 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.319 from any work class. And so it really was kind 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:38.679 of a tale of two Americans and how they relate 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.120 to work. And everyone was questioning their relationship to work, 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:42.040 but for different reasons. 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.160 I think, yeah, I mean, I love harping on that 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.440 term essential worker that was thrown around so often during 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.120 the pandemic. It's like we saw that many of these 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:54.200 workers were essential. My partner is an elementary school teacher, 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.079 you know, and maybe similar to your father. Her workload 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.080 and the risk that she had to expose herself to 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:04.439 increased astronomically over the course of the pandemic. And yet 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:08.760 we still haven't necessarily given these workers that we deem 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:12.880 essential the protections and the pay and the benefit to 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.640 ensure that they can keep doing their jobs safely for 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:16.200 us all. 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.760 So you mentioned diversifying your identity. Can you share some 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:22.920 of the benefits of diversifying your identity? Right, So, when 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:24.480 it comes to investing your money, you want to make 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:26.000 sure that you don't have all of your eggs in 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.080 one basket. And essentially, what you're saying here is that 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.200 we are putting all of our eggs into this basket 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:34.560 of career or job title or whatever it is that 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.240 we find most attractive about our jobs. What are some 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:39.800 of the benefits that you found when we take a 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.520 step back and when we look to some other outlets 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.640 some other ways that we are able to find our 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:47.280 identity totally. 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.760 Yeah, you know, much as an investor benefits from diversifying 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.920 the stocks in their portfolio, I think we two really 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:58.040 benefit from diversifying the sources of identity and meaning in 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.560 our lives. And there's some research to back up. You know, 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:06.560 there's studies about what researchers call developing greater self complexity, 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:11.200 or having different self aspects, which essentially means just investing 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.080 in different parts of ourselves. You know, we're not just workers. 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:18.920 We're also siblings and neighbors and citizens and friends and parents, 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:22.680 and you know, these identities they need investment, you know. 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:27.440 They One of the main reasons or arguments for doing 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.560 so is that in the case of it doesn't even 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.200 have to be a layoff, but any sort of bad 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:36.480 news in the work realm, when we have a more 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:41.240 diversified identity portfolio, it's less likely to spill over into 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:43.920 other aspects of our lives. We're more resilient if we 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:49.480 have greater self complexity. There's also a semblance not just 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.720 in the sort of the bare case of something tragic 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:56.240 or bad happening, but in just the value of being 0:15:56.280 --> 0:16:00.760 able to give our time and attention into other parts 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:04.400 of who we are. It's important to keep in mind 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:07.680 that identities are sort of like plants, you know, like 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:12.080 they need time and intention in order to grow. And 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:15.520 I think part of the risk of living in a 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.800 life that's so centered around work is that work doesn't 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.800 just take our best time and often also takes our 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.240 best energy as well. And so one of the arguments 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:27.960 that Ike in the book is that in order to 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:33.080 diversify your identity beyond what you do for work, you 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:37.200 have to do things other than work, which may seem 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:40.320 a little obvious, but you know, for me at least, 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:42.480 I can definitely relate to the experience of you know, 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:45.040 you go to work, you come home, you're exhausted. All 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.240 you have the energy to do is sort of turn 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:51.240 off your brain and turn on Netflix. And while that can, 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.440 you know, temporarily be a nice way to recharge or 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:56.800 you know, to get lost in another world, if you 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.480 really want to have other sources of meaning in your life, 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:04.000 you need to be actively doing things and in the community, 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:08.080 doing things with others, investing in your relationships. And so 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:09.560 that's what I advocate for. 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:13.280 Yes, it's about just being a well rounded individual. And 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.439 as you were talking about religion a second ago, it 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.800 maybe think through how getting laid off from a job 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:22.320 that's not a I mean, it's not something that anybody 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:24.480 wants to go through, but it's not like it's the 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:28.040 equivalent of having your faith taken from you. And so 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:31.680 I see that as being another problem with viewing your job. 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.520 And you know, almost to the same extent that you 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:37.480 view religion is that faith is it's such a personal 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:41.600 and internal thing, and the ability for somebody outside of 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.600 you to take that away kind of goes counter to 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.359 I think how a lot of individuals view their faith, 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.399 how they view their spirituality. And so yeah, for you 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:51.560 to show up one day and all of a sudden, 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:53.199 it's just like, hey, this thing that you've depended on 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:55.879 as much as someone would typically depend on their faith, 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:59.600 as oh, it's no longer there. That could be incredibly 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.080 dev stadium even more tenuous connection to our work than 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.280 we think. And some people who if you put your 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:08.080 hope and dreams and faith and future expectations all inside 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:10.560 of this one vehicle which is your career, at some 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.199 point problematic there's a really good chance that someone can 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.199 take that away from you, it's like a janguitower and 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:17.920 it's like you're down to just like a singular block 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.800 at the bottom. If you were to pull that one thing, 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:22.639 it's like everything else just completely falls up. Year. 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.760 Yeah, I mean, you guys know the writer David Foster Wallace, 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.320 he has this very iconic speech, this is Water, and 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:31.440 one of the points that he makes is that there's 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:36.359 no such thing as not worshiping. We all worship something, 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:41.280 either consciously or unconsciously, and whatever you end up worshiping 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:45.160 will probably eat you alive. You know, worship beauty and 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:49.000 you'll feel like you're never beautiful enough. Or worship money 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:52.280 and you feel like you never have enough of it. 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:56.000 And I think the same is true with work. You know, 0:18:56.280 --> 0:19:00.679 it's what gets us into these systems where are you know, 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:05.119 chasing carrots their entire lives and never fully feeling full. 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:05.520 You know. 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.600 It's like you can chase all the next rung on 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:13.600 the career ladder, the next title or status or salary band. 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:18.719 But unlike these sort of material things of the working world, 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:23.680 religion is less easily falsifiable, you know. And I don't 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:27.399 think we necessarily have to all find whatever, you know, 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:30.639 God out there exists for us. That's definitely one means 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:34.679 of doing so. But by having other sources of meaning, 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:40.200 we're able to just bounce back if say, your manager 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:44.200 says something disparaging over the course of the work day. 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:47.600 If you can show up as as a good father 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.000 that night, or show up as a good third basement 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:55.159 for your recreational softball team, or show up as you know, 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:58.000 a very present friend to a buddy who is going 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:01.560 through something. All of those I identities can help soften 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:05.880 the inevitable bumps we face them along the reative work. 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:07.680 Yeah, and the places where work falls short. 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:10.320 I'm still gunning for that senior podcast host title that 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:13.400 Matt has not bestowed any but I don't know, maybe. 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:14.000 Soon, two more years. 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:16.840 It's always two more years ago. I know you've always 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:18.119 he hold that like a care in front of me 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.359 that I could never attain. But we've got more questions 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:22.399 we want to get to with you, Cimo. We sespecially 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.320 want to talk about the role that passion or fulfillment 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:27.760 plays and work like do we need to divorce it completely? 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:29.800 And so we'll get to questions on that and maybe 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:33.240 some practical suggestions for how to find to start to 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:36.960 remove our identity from mostly being centered around our work. 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.200 We'll get to some of those those questions dot combo 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:39.800 right after this. 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:50.280 All right, we are back from. 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:54.160 The break talking to Cimo stoles Off about the good 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:57.959 enough job and Sema talk to us about meaning, talk 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:01.080