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Speaker 1: Welcome to Hod of Money. I'm Joel and I am

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Speaker 1: Matt and today we're discussing The Good Enough Job with

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Speaker 1: Simone stoles Off.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to start today's episode a little differently.

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Speaker 2: Let's start out with a quote. Work will always be work.

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Speaker 2: Some people work doing what they love. Other people work

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Speaker 2: so that they can do what they love when they

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Speaker 2: are not working. Neither is more noble. This is a

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Speaker 2: quote from Simone stoles Off's new book, The Good Enough Job,

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Speaker 2: that is set to publish here in a couple of weeks,

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Speaker 2: and it's actually made by Simone's favorite writer who happens

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Speaker 2: to be a poet. And after going through this book,

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Speaker 2: I don't think anything else we could say could actually

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Speaker 2: encapsulate Simo's book any better. But we are going to

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Speaker 2: discuss a number of themes from the book, how to

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Speaker 2: basically diversify your identity. We're gonna talk about the similarities

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Speaker 2: between work and religion, or maybe the dissimilarities, uh, the

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Speaker 2: false promise of chasing after status. All of this we're

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Speaker 2: going to discuss.

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Speaker 3: Today and more.

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Speaker 2: Simone stoles Off, thank you so much for joining us

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Speaker 2: on the podcast.

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Speaker 4: It's a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: Guys, we're glad to have you and some of your

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Speaker 1: closest friends call you Simo, So we assume just based

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Speaker 1: on our five minute chat beforehand, we can we're allowed

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Speaker 1: to call you.

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Speaker 2: That is that we switching to Semo.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Oh, it's kind of like my cocktail party line.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's like Simo. It's like Nemo with an S.

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Speaker 1: You know, awesome. So we'll probably refer to you that

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Speaker 1: way through a lot of this episode. But Simo, we're

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Speaker 1: excited to chat with you. And the first question we

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Speaker 1: ask every guest who comes on the show is what

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Speaker 1: is their craft beer equivalent? And what we mean by

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Speaker 1: that is, while you're saving and investing diligently for the future,

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Speaker 1: what is it that you proactively spend money on that

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Speaker 1: some people might think is a little weird or you're

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Speaker 1: just thrilled to spend money in a certain way while

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Speaker 1: you're still handling money.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, so my craft beer equivalent isn't the most

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Speaker 4: expensive purchase. It might pile up if you do it

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Speaker 4: as frequently as I do. But I am a chocolate

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Speaker 4: chip cookie fiend. I actually hate a chocolate chip cookie

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Speaker 4: every single day for four years of college. It's like

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Speaker 4: become a little bit of like it's like my brand now,

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Speaker 4: you know, like my friends like me. It's like the

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Speaker 4: cookie guy. But I still love them, you know, And

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Speaker 4: I like I'm not much of like a chocolate chip

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Speaker 4: cookie snob, you know, I'm a kind of equal opportunist,

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Speaker 4: from the famous amos to the artisanal like eight dollar

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Speaker 4: cookie that I bought the other day.

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Speaker 3: Are you baking your own ever?

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Speaker 4: Sometimes? Yeah, I don't know. I feel like cookies are

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Speaker 4: kind of like Beatles songs, like even the not great

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Speaker 4: ones are still like pretty good.

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Speaker 2: Feel that way if you're mentioning famous amos in the

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Speaker 2: same as like an all, let me come on, who

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Speaker 2: can who's actually putting those things down? But I guess

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Speaker 2: you do not discriminate one.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever go off brand like the fake chips

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Speaker 1: a hole or something like that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll do it.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I'm just like easily pleased. It's maybe not best for

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Speaker 4: like my cultural high brownness, but I like enjoy cookies

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Speaker 4: in all of their forms.

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Speaker 3: No, I love it. Okay.

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Speaker 2: One last question about the cookies. Do you have a

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Speaker 2: favorite for lack of better words, adjunct, like, what's something

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Speaker 2: that you like in chocolate chip cookies that may not

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Speaker 2: necessarily be traditional.

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Speaker 3: And if you say raisins this interviews over.

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Speaker 4: Now, yeah, I'm a purist. I think I my like

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Speaker 4: hotter take literally is that I like under baked cookies.

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Speaker 4: I like cookies that still feel like a little gooey

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Speaker 4: in the middle, and like the closer that you can

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Speaker 4: get to the cookie dough spectrum without giving yourself sammonilla.

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Speaker 3: No, I like that respect.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the ability to fold a cookie in half is

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Speaker 2: better than.

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Speaker 4: You're getting to like my Italian roots.

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Speaker 3: Way, yes, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: I love it all right. That's somebody loves to have

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Speaker 2: into your book on it like you. So you say

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Speaker 2: that you're recovering workest in the intro it kind of

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Speaker 2: it almost feels like an AA introduction introduction, honestly, But

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Speaker 2: talk to us about maybe when it dawned on you

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Speaker 2: that you were overvaluing the role of work in your

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Speaker 2: own life, Like, what.

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Speaker 3: Is it that caused you to reevaluate that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So, you know, I think we're all about the

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Speaker 4: same age, kind of smack in the middle of the

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Speaker 4: millennial generation. And I think I was raised on certain scripts.

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Speaker 4: You know, I grew up with lots of opportunity, which

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Speaker 4: I'm grateful for, and also this mentality of you know,

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Speaker 4: I could sort of do whatever I wanted, and it

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Speaker 4: was just a matter of figuring out what particular career

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Speaker 4: path or what particular job was the best reflection of

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Speaker 4: my unique passion and personality. And I spent my twenties

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Speaker 4: really playing goldilocks with different jobs. I worked in tech

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Speaker 4: for a few years, and I worked in food for

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Speaker 4: a few years, and I worked in journalism for a

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Speaker 4: few years. And it really came to ahead at a

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Speaker 4: moment when I was choosing between these two particular jobs.

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Speaker 4: One was to be a staff writer at a digital

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Speaker 4: magazine and the other was to be a designer at

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Speaker 4: this global design agency. And on one hand, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 4: agony is me, you know, like the plight of deciding

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Speaker 4: between two attractive job authors. But you know, maybe you

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Speaker 4: guys or some of your listeners have been in a

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Speaker 4: similar crossroads before, you know, For me, I really didn't

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Speaker 4: feel like I was choosing between two jobs as much

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Speaker 4: as I was choosing between two versions of me. And

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Speaker 4: this sort of like career and decision moment I was

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Speaker 4: probably twenty eight or twenty nine really threw me for

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Speaker 4: an existential loop, and I was wondering, sort of, how

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Speaker 4: did my identity become so entwined with what I did

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Speaker 4: for work, what I did to make money? And that

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Speaker 4: was sort of the first kernel that led to what

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Speaker 4: became the research project that eventually became the book.

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Speaker 1: Nice Well, and yeah, I think probably, Well, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Maybe some people have not had that, and they're just

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Speaker 1: nose to the grindstone and they haven't had that moment

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Speaker 1: of reflection. Hopefully this discussion like that we're going to

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Speaker 1: have today pushes people to have a little bit of

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Speaker 1: that at least start to initiate the thought process. Am

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Speaker 1: I putting too much effort or identity into my work?

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Speaker 1: But can you give us a brief history lesson about

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Speaker 1: how we got to the point where careers became so

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Speaker 1: central to our identity, to our existence. It seems like

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Speaker 1: it didn't used to be that way, and now careers

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Speaker 1: are kind of all defining in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, there's many different possible ways to answer

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Speaker 4: this question. And maybe if your last name is Miller,

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Speaker 4: you probably condect to differ that. You know, identity and

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Speaker 4: careers have been tied together for a long time. But

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Speaker 4: I think there is something that is uniquely American about this,

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Speaker 4: and also something that is unique to the last sort

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Speaker 4: of fifty years or so, and so I think there

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Speaker 4: are kind of economic arguments. There's political arguments, there are

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Speaker 4: social arguments, cultural arguments. The historical one is just the

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Speaker 4: fact that the Protestant work ethic and capitalism we're really

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Speaker 4: the two strands that entwine to form our country's DNA.

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Speaker 4: From the beginning, being American was synonymous with your ability

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Speaker 4: to be a productive member of society or to be

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Speaker 4: able to work hard. There's also kind of economic arguments.

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Speaker 4: I think this really differs depending on what side of

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Speaker 4: the income spectrum you're looking at. On the sort of

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Speaker 4: lower earning side, wages have been stagnant for the last

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Speaker 4: forty or fifty years, which means that people have had

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Speaker 4: to work more just to earn the same money to

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Speaker 4: buy the same loaf of bread. Has driven a lot

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Speaker 4: of people to work long hours. On the other side,

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Speaker 4: there's the tax structure of our country and the way

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Speaker 4: that employment and healthcare are often tied together that make

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Speaker 4: the consequences of losing work so dire, and also the

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Speaker 4: ability to consolidate wealth with the more hours that you work,

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Speaker 4: greater abilities to do so. The argument I really focus

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Speaker 4: on in the book is the sort of subjective or

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Speaker 4: the cultural value that Americans place on their jobs. You know,

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Speaker 4: we live in a country that treats CEOs like celebrities,

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Speaker 4: and we plaster always do what you love on the

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Speaker 4: walls of our co working in space. We parade around

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Speaker 4: our job titles and small talk conversation and on our

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Speaker 4: social media profiles. And there is really this sense that

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Speaker 4: you are what you do. And I think that is

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Speaker 4: unique to a certain extent to this age that we're

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Speaker 4: in right now. We're work is very much in vogue,

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Speaker 4: or maybe in the last three or so years, with

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Speaker 4: the pandemic hotly contested about its role in our lives.

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Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, and you say it's becoming something that is

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Speaker 2: turning out to be more global, Like it's essentially become

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Speaker 2: an American export that other countries are now starting to

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Speaker 2: follow in our footsteps, sort of like Levi's it's like,

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Speaker 2: not only do you get the genes, but you also

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Speaker 2: get our ridiculous work ethic.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean, I think the way that I

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Speaker 4: frame it is like I think workism, which is a

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Speaker 4: term that was originally coined by the journalist Derek Thompson

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Speaker 4: in the Atlantic. It's the idea of like treating work

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Speaker 4: akin to a religious identity. Yeah, the one thing that

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Speaker 4: you look to is just a paycheck, but also for

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Speaker 4: totally a community, a sense of self worth, a sense

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Speaker 4: of purpose in your life. I think it's primarily a

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Speaker 4: phenomenon that is most prevalent among people that have a

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Speaker 4: certain level of privilege, you know, college educated Americans, But

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Speaker 4: that doesn't mean that it exists. It doesn't exist in

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Speaker 4: other countries, it doesn't exist in other sort of class strata.

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Speaker 4: It just is particularly pronounced for people that have, truthfully

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Speaker 4: the privilege to be able to choose what they want.

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Speaker 3: To do totally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And you kind of just touched on something

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Speaker 2: I was going to follow up there with, which was religion,

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Speaker 2: because you see that. But one of the problems is

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Speaker 2: that more folks are trying to get the meaning out

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Speaker 2: of their job that they used to find in religion.

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Speaker 2: And so is a solution Should we just go to synagogue?

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Speaker 2: Should we just go to church? More? Does that solve

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Speaker 2: all of our problems? What is the I guess the

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Speaker 2: problem or the difficulty in finding or putting our faith

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Speaker 2: within our jobs, within our careers.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, the data on the religiosity of Americans

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Speaker 4: is pretty interesting. You know, if you look back to

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Speaker 4: the height of religiosity in the US and sort of

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Speaker 4: the nineteen fifties, it's something like six or seven percent

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Speaker 4: of Americans weren't religious, and everyone else had a pretty

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Speaker 4: strong association with an organized religion. And there's been this

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Speaker 4: precipitous decline in the past forty years where today nearly

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Speaker 4: one in three almost in the latest data, Americans don't

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Speaker 4: have a particular religious affiliation, whether they're agnostic or atheist,

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Speaker 4: or just don't believe in anything in particular. And so,

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Speaker 4: you know, when you think about the role that religion

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Speaker 4: plays in people's lives, it is obviously something to believe in,

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Speaker 4: a potential path to transcendence, but it's also a primary community.

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Speaker 4: It's a primary source of your identity. And so with

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Speaker 4: the decline of these organized religions, the need for belonging

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Speaker 4: and for purpose still remains. And the argument that they

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Speaker 4: make in the book is that work, for many people

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Speaker 4: has taken on that role. But the problem is that

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Speaker 4: that's not necessarily a burden. Our jobs are designed to bear.

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Speaker 4: You know, this is particularly visible in the past few

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Speaker 4: years with the pandemic. You know, some people, whether it

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Speaker 4: was due to layoffs or furloughs, lost their jobs, you know,

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Speaker 4: and if your work is your primary source of identity

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Speaker 4: and meaning and you lose it, what's left well.

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Speaker 1: And even for folks who didn't lose their job, maybe

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Speaker 1: they started working from home in that connection to the

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Speaker 1: culture and to the community of work was sever and

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Speaker 1: so that kind of changed their relationship how they interacted

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Speaker 1: with their work as well. So it was seen more

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Speaker 1: as like a I do this for a paycheck when

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Speaker 1: I can, and it lost some of its all encompassing nature.

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Speaker 1: You think that's true too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely. I mean I think regardless of what type

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Speaker 4: of work, you had changed in some way in the

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Speaker 4: past three years. And you know, I started reporting this

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Speaker 4: book before the pandemic. I definitely did not anticipate a

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Speaker 4: global pandemic helping everyone sort of reconsider their relationship to

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Speaker 4: their jobs. But it was this huge wake up call

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Speaker 4: I think for everyone. You know, their job wasn't exactly

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Speaker 4: what it used to be. And I think people who

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Speaker 4: were maybe over indexed and looking to work as a

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Speaker 4: source of identity and meaning in their life were left

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Speaker 4: for a rude awakening, you know. And the main sort

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Speaker 4: of argument that I make in the book, when it

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Speaker 4: gets into a little bit more of an editorial section,

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Speaker 4: is about what you said about the value of diversifying

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Speaker 4: your identity and sources of meaning beyond just what you

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Speaker 4: do for work. You know, this isn't just to protect

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Speaker 4: in the case that you get laid off, But I

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Speaker 4: think one of the risks of a work centric existence

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Speaker 4: is that we can neglect other parts of who we are.

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Speaker 1: And one other thing I want to follow by I

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Speaker 1: mentioned how there is a work from home class. I

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Speaker 1: feel like the pandemic kind of it created dichotomy, right,

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Speaker 1: and we saw other people incredibly overworked and theirship their

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Speaker 1: job changed in a different way if you worked at

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Speaker 1: a grocery store. My dad, who was stocking shelves in

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Speaker 1: a grocery store at the ripe old age of sixty eight,

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Speaker 1: like that was a different thing, right than what a

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Speaker 1: lot of other people experienced. A laptop class to work

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Speaker 1: from any work class. And so it really was kind

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Speaker 1: of a tale of two Americans and how they relate

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Speaker 1: to work. And everyone was questioning their relationship to work,

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Speaker 1: but for different reasons.

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Speaker 4: I think, yeah, I mean, I love harping on that

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Speaker 4: term essential worker that was thrown around so often during

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Speaker 4: the pandemic. It's like we saw that many of these

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Speaker 4: workers were essential. My partner is an elementary school teacher,

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Speaker 4: you know, and maybe similar to your father. Her workload

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Speaker 4: and the risk that she had to expose herself to

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Speaker 4: increased astronomically over the course of the pandemic. And yet

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Speaker 4: we still haven't necessarily given these workers that we deem

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Speaker 4: essential the protections and the pay and the benefit to

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Speaker 4: ensure that they can keep doing their jobs safely for

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Speaker 4: us all.

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned diversifying your identity. Can you share some

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Speaker 2: of the benefits of diversifying your identity? Right, So, when

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Speaker 2: it comes to investing your money, you want to make

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Speaker 2: sure that you don't have all of your eggs in

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Speaker 2: one basket. And essentially, what you're saying here is that

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Speaker 2: we are putting all of our eggs into this basket

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Speaker 2: of career or job title or whatever it is that

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Speaker 2: we find most attractive about our jobs. What are some

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Speaker 2: of the benefits that you found when we take a

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Speaker 2: step back and when we look to some other outlets

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Speaker 2: some other ways that we are able to find our

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Speaker 2: identity totally.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, much as an investor benefits from diversifying

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Speaker 4: the stocks in their portfolio, I think we two really

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Speaker 4: benefit from diversifying the sources of identity and meaning in

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Speaker 4: our lives. And there's some research to back up. You know,

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Speaker 4: there's studies about what researchers call developing greater self complexity,

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Speaker 4: or having different self aspects, which essentially means just investing

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Speaker 4: in different parts of ourselves. You know, we're not just workers.

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Speaker 4: We're also siblings and neighbors and citizens and friends and parents,

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Speaker 4: and you know, these identities they need investment, you know.

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Speaker 4: They One of the main reasons or arguments for doing

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Speaker 4: so is that in the case of it doesn't even

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Speaker 4: have to be a layoff, but any sort of bad

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Speaker 4: news in the work realm, when we have a more

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Speaker 4: diversified identity portfolio, it's less likely to spill over into

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Speaker 4: other aspects of our lives. We're more resilient if we

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Speaker 4: have greater self complexity. There's also a semblance not just

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Speaker 4: in the sort of the bare case of something tragic

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Speaker 4: or bad happening, but in just the value of being

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Speaker 4: able to give our time and attention into other parts

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Speaker 4: of who we are. It's important to keep in mind

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Speaker 4: that identities are sort of like plants, you know, like

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Speaker 4: they need time and intention in order to grow. And

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Speaker 4: I think part of the risk of living in a

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Speaker 4: life that's so centered around work is that work doesn't

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Speaker 4: just take our best time and often also takes our

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Speaker 4: best energy as well. And so one of the arguments

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Speaker 4: that Ike in the book is that in order to

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Speaker 4: diversify your identity beyond what you do for work, you

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Speaker 4: have to do things other than work, which may seem

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Speaker 4: a little obvious, but you know, for me at least,

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Speaker 4: I can definitely relate to the experience of you know,

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Speaker 4: you go to work, you come home, you're exhausted. All

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Speaker 4: you have the energy to do is sort of turn

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Speaker 4: off your brain and turn on Netflix. And while that can,

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Speaker 4: you know, temporarily be a nice way to recharge or

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Speaker 4: you know, to get lost in another world, if you

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Speaker 4: really want to have other sources of meaning in your life,

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Speaker 4: you need to be actively doing things and in the community,

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Speaker 4: doing things with others, investing in your relationships. And so

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Speaker 4: that's what I advocate for.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's about just being a well rounded individual. And

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Speaker 2: as you were talking about religion a second ago, it

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Speaker 2: maybe think through how getting laid off from a job

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Speaker 2: that's not a I mean, it's not something that anybody

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Speaker 2: wants to go through, but it's not like it's the

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Speaker 2: equivalent of having your faith taken from you. And so

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Speaker 2: I see that as being another problem with viewing your job.

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Speaker 2: And you know, almost to the same extent that you

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Speaker 2: view religion is that faith is it's such a personal

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Speaker 2: and internal thing, and the ability for somebody outside of

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Speaker 2: you to take that away kind of goes counter to

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Speaker 2: I think how a lot of individuals view their faith,

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Speaker 2: how they view their spirituality. And so yeah, for you

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Speaker 2: to show up one day and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: it's just like, hey, this thing that you've depended on

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Speaker 2: as much as someone would typically depend on their faith,

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Speaker 2: as oh, it's no longer there. That could be incredibly

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Speaker 2: dev stadium even more tenuous connection to our work than

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Speaker 2: we think. And some people who if you put your

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Speaker 2: hope and dreams and faith and future expectations all inside

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Speaker 2: of this one vehicle which is your career, at some

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Speaker 2: point problematic there's a really good chance that someone can

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Speaker 2: take that away from you, it's like a janguitower and

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Speaker 2: it's like you're down to just like a singular block

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Speaker 2: at the bottom. If you were to pull that one thing,

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Speaker 2: it's like everything else just completely falls up. Year.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you guys know the writer David Foster Wallace,

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Speaker 4: he has this very iconic speech, this is Water, and

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Speaker 4: one of the points that he makes is that there's

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Speaker 4: no such thing as not worshiping. We all worship something,

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Speaker 4: either consciously or unconsciously, and whatever you end up worshiping

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Speaker 4: will probably eat you alive. You know, worship beauty and

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Speaker 4: you'll feel like you're never beautiful enough. Or worship money

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Speaker 4: and you feel like you never have enough of it.

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Speaker 4: And I think the same is true with work. You know,

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Speaker 4: it's what gets us into these systems where are you know,

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Speaker 4: chasing carrots their entire lives and never fully feeling full.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's like you can chase all the next rung on

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Speaker 4: the career ladder, the next title or status or salary band.

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Speaker 4: But unlike these sort of material things of the working world,

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Speaker 4: religion is less easily falsifiable, you know. And I don't

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Speaker 4: think we necessarily have to all find whatever, you know,

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Speaker 4: God out there exists for us. That's definitely one means

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Speaker 4: of doing so. But by having other sources of meaning,

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Speaker 4: we're able to just bounce back if say, your manager

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Speaker 4: says something disparaging over the course of the work day.

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Speaker 4: If you can show up as as a good father

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Speaker 4: that night, or show up as a good third basement

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Speaker 4: for your recreational softball team, or show up as you know,

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Speaker 4: a very present friend to a buddy who is going

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Speaker 4: through something. All of those I identities can help soften

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Speaker 4: the inevitable bumps we face them along the reative work.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and the places where work falls short.

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Speaker 1: I'm still gunning for that senior podcast host title that

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Speaker 1: Matt has not bestowed any but I don't know, maybe.

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Speaker 3: Soon, two more years.

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Speaker 1: It's always two more years ago. I know you've always

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Speaker 1: he hold that like a care in front of me

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Speaker 1: that I could never attain. But we've got more questions

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Speaker 1: we want to get to with you, Cimo. We sespecially

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Speaker 1: want to talk about the role that passion or fulfillment

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Speaker 1: plays and work like do we need to divorce it completely?

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Speaker 1: And so we'll get to questions on that and maybe

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Speaker 1: some practical suggestions for how to find to start to

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Speaker 1: remove our identity from mostly being centered around our work.

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Speaker 1: We'll get to some of those those questions dot combo

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Speaker 1: right after this.

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Speaker 3: All right, we are back from.

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Speaker 2: The break talking to Cimo stoles Off about the good

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Speaker 2: enough job and Sema talk to us about meaning, talk

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Speaker 2: to us about purpose and work, because it certainly seems.

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Speaker 3: Like that there is this this.

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Speaker 2: Push to find like ultimate fulfillment in your career. But

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Speaker 2: how do you think we should think about that role,

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Speaker 2: specifically the role that passion plays in our in our

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Speaker 2: nine to five, Like, is the dream job?

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Speaker 3: Is it just a pipe dream at this point?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a good question, you know. And I think

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Speaker 4: when you like look at the cover of the book

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Speaker 4: or even read the title, you know, the subtitle is

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Speaker 4: Reclaiming Life from Work, you might assume that my argument

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Speaker 4: is some it's like anti work, you know. And this

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Speaker 4: idea of like anti work has become a bit of

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Speaker 4: a meme or trend recently. There's a huge subreddit about

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Speaker 4: anti work, and it's there's a lot of cultural cachet

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Speaker 4: and being able to be like anti capitalist or against

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Speaker 4: the man. And yet I don't think that going full

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Speaker 4: on to that end of the spectrum is necessarily helpful

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Speaker 4: or will be a recipe for fulfillment when it comes

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Speaker 4: to passion. You know, I think I have certainly derived

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Speaker 4: a lot of meaning and purpose and passion from my

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Speaker 4: work myself. But I think, you know, I rely a

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Speaker 4: lot on this chapter of the research of this woman

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Speaker 4: at Michigan State named Aaron Check who wrote this book

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Speaker 4: called The Trouble with Passion, And basically her argument is

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Speaker 4: that not all of us have the same on ramps

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Speaker 4: to be able to translate our passions into our means

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Speaker 4: of making money, and for people who have fewer opportunities,

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Speaker 4: it can actually exacerbate inner quality when we tell everyone

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Speaker 4: to follow their passion, but some people don't have as

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Speaker 4: much access to passion jobs as others. And I think

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Speaker 4: a lot of times, you know, passion can be a

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Speaker 4: stand in for fair compensation or fair pay. There's this

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Speaker 4: concept in the book I talk about that's called vocational AWE,

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Speaker 4: which is the idea that certain industries have a sort

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Speaker 4: of perceived righteousness, like a halo effect. I'm thinking about

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Speaker 4: things like healthcare workers, or like teachers, or people that

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Speaker 4: work in the nonprofit sector. And it was a concept

439
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 4: that was originally coined by this librarian, this woman named

440
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 4: Fobasi Utar, and she observed how this sort of rhetoric

441
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,679
Speaker 4: around follow your passion or you know, vocational awe, like

442
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 4: the idea that you should be in it for something

443
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 4: more than the money, can actually cover up a lot

444
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 4: of the malpractice and exploitation that exists within all of

445
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 4: these different fields. You know, I've this mentor this woman

446
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 4: and Helen Peterson, and she says, most of the time

447
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 4: all passion can get you is the excuse to be

448
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 4: paid very little. And so you know, it's a fine balance. Obviously,

449
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 4: you know, we work more than we do just about

450
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,919
Speaker 4: anything else in our life, and you know how we

451
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 4: spend those hours matter. But I think being clear headed

452
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 4: about the fact that work is first and foremost an

453
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 4: economic contract. It's an exchange of your time and your

454
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 4: labor for money. The better it can certainly be more

455
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 4: than those things. But I think the more sort of

456
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 4: clear headed we can be about its fundamental purpose, the

457
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 4: better off will be.

458
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 3: Yeah. I like that.

459
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 1: Okay, you talked too about how like stagnating wages, and

460
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: we've seen a little bit of that change recently. We've

461
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 1: seen kind of especially at the lower end of the

462
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 1: income spectrum. We've seen higher paces in wage growth, still

463
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: not making up for lots of decades where that wasn't happening.

464
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: But I guess so there is that element where for

465
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 1: a lot of folks pay hasn't kept up and so

466
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: having to work more hours just to make ends meet

467
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: is a thing for sure. But I guess I want

468
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: to ask you too, there's a lot of people Matt

469
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: and I talk about this all the time. We see

470
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: stats where people make two hundred k a year and

471
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: they're still living paycheck to paycheck. So often for a

472
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: lot of people, it's not just that they're not getting

473
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: paid enough. So do you think not being a personal

474
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: finance nerd to the extead of Matt and I like

475
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: our poor savings habits in that intense reliance on that

476
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: income from our day job, does that make matters worse

477
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 1: that we are basically we tied at the hip to

478
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: our employer, that we don't have enough margin or if

479
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: we did lose our job or if we wanted to

480
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: pursue something else, that we don't really have that ability totally.

481
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, I think there's sort of like two

482
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 4: parts to the question. There's one is like the what

483
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 4: we've observed in the pandemic, where the just a monochrome

484
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 4: of kind of social support from the government allowed a

485
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 4: lot of people to leave jobs that weren't good enough

486
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 4: for them. And so, you know, I think one of

487
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 4: the misconceptions about the Great Resignation was that it was

488
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 4: just people kind of dropping out of the labor force

489
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 4: and sitting on their couch all day, Whereas an actuality,

490
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 4: the majority of people that left jobs during the heart

491
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 4: of the pandemic actually just left to find better jobs.

492
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 4: So I think that's really important to consider. It's like,

493
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 4: when we feel like there is a little bit of

494
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 4: government support or just a less fraid social safety net,

495
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 4: people feel more empowered or define work that works better

496
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,959
Speaker 4: for them. And then there's kind of the second half

497
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 4: of your question, which is, you know, thinking about people

498
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 4: and that we're making a lot of money that might

499
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 4: not have very much slack and their budget or their

500
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 4: spending habits. And I think a lot of that comes

501
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 4: back to sort of the consumerism that is so prevalent

502
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 4: in America and the pressure to always be spending and

503
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 4: keeping up with the joneses and having the nice new

504
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 4: thing and sort of foregoing some of the long term

505
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 4: benefits that we can get from saving or having just

506
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 4: you know, more resiliency built into your budget, versus the

507
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,479
Speaker 4: sort of short term rash of getting something that's shiny

508
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 4: and new consumerism.

509
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what you're talking about. I haven't seen

510
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 3: that play off this country.

511
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: We talk about that all Batari here on the show Cimo,

512
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 2: you were discussing how it's like, is it it's like

513
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 2: a chicken or egg situation where we are spending therefore

514
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 2: we have to earn more or is it, Oh, we

515
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 2: don't have the time to dedicate towards developing our identity

516
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: outside of work because we are working so much. It's

517
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 2: this sort of doom loop that we find ourselves stuck in.

518
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 2: And I think that's definitely true when it comes to

519
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 2: our personal finances and how that's intertwined.

520
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 3: With our careers as well.

521
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,479
Speaker 2: One of the other myths that you tackle, that you

522
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: address is that our coworkers, how we should not necessarily

523
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 2: view them as family. Oftentimes folks just they believe that line.

524
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: And I'll talk into a buddy of mind, and he's

525
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 2: after getting laid off. He he highlighted the fact that, man,

526
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: you know, this is a line that I believed. It's

527
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 2: I'm a manager myself. We live by this line. But

528
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 2: when the time comes and you get laid off, you

529
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 2: quickly realize that your family left or coworkers are not

530
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 2: your family.

531
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 3: Why is that such a problem?

532
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you know, the desire to form close

533
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 4: bonds at work isn't misguided, and there have been lots

534
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 4: of studies to back this up. People that have close

535
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 4: friends that work tend to be more fulfilled by the job,

536
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 4: they tend to stay at jobs longer, and so it

537
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 4: should come as no surprise that companies and especially leaders

538
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 4: sometimes use the rhetoric of family and the sort of

539
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 4: bonds that bind us together to try and inspire employees

540
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 4: to work for the cause or to stay at their

541
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 4: companies for longer. And I think, similar to your friends,

542
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 4: so many people have seen over the past two years,

543
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 4: how that rhetoric can be very shallow. You know, you

544
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 4: can't fire someone from your company. But even if it

545
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 4: was true that your workplace could be like your family,

546
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 4: I'm not sure that's something that we should aspire to.

547
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 4: You know, most of the families that I know are

548
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 4: pretty dysfunctional in one way or another. You know, and

549
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 4: so in some ways the question about like workplace as

550
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 4: family is sort of just a semantic distinction and just

551
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 4: about this idea of like how much of our relationship

552
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 4: should be center in the workplace. And you know, I

553
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 4: think the argument that I make is like, it's not

554
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 4: necessarily a problem to have friends at work, but I

555
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 4: think if your workplace is your sole source of community,

556
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 4: that is a narrow platform to balance on, you're prone

557
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 4: to be blown over by a strong gust of wind,

558
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 4: whether that is getting laid off or your quote unquote

559
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 4: family member having to give you some tough love in

560
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 4: the sake of further in the business goals, or even

561
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 4: just the sort of negative consequences of the sort of

562
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 4: in groups and the clicks that can form at work.

563
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 4: There's been research that has found that in more familial workplaces,

564
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 4: workers are less likely to speak up about wrongdoing, They're

565
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 4: less likely to be transparent, they're less likely to make

566
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 4: decisions based on sound business analysis and rigor as opposed

567
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 4: to just sort of like trusting what your buddy says.

568
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 4: And so, you know, there are actual material consequences of

569
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 4: relying too much on social ties as opposed to fundamentally

570
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 4: what a professional relationship should be, which is based on

571
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 4: your material goals for the company.

572
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: So it makes me think of the last real job

573
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: I had. Fortunately, I don't have a real job now,

574
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: I just podcast, but the last real job I had,

575
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: there was this thing where once a month they would

576
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: give one hundred dollars awards to like ten different people

577
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: in the company for going above and beyond and for

578
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: doing something just of incredible dedication to the company and

579
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: to the company's efforts. And the people who got rewarded

580
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: is like literally just I mean a hundred bucks. I'm

581
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: not saying one hundred bucks is nothing, but it was

582
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: one hundred bucks. And it was oftentimes somebody who came

583
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: in on the weekend who like left their family in

584
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: the lurch to come take care of something at work.

585
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: And I was like, I'm making it my personal goal

586
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: to never win this award because it felt like that

587
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: was asking too much, creating a tie that it didn't

588
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: deserve that sort of stranglehold over my life. And I

589
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: could tell so many people prided themselves I'm being able

590
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: to win this one hundred dollars recognition in front of

591
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: their coworker sort of thing. And I had just the

592
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: opposite stance, and I was like, this is absurd and

593
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,959
Speaker 1: there's no way I ever want to be found up

594
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: on that podium accepting the award because it will have

595
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: meant that I dropped obligations and duties that matter a

596
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: whole lot to me. So I guess that's where I

597
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: want to ask, too, how do we find create a

598
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: proper attachment to work or we are working hard, where

599
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: we're producing good work, where we are a part of

600
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: the organization in a meaningful way without going above and beyond.

601
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: We don't want to be laxa Daisa whole, but we

602
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: also don't want to over exert ourselves and basically inhibit

603
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: the ability for those other identity forming necessities to take place.

604
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I love the question. It reminds me

605
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 4: of office space where to for anistans wearing the vest

606
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 4: with like flair at the.

607
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 2: Restaurant pieces of flair exactly.

608
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 4: It's like, you know, she's wearing what the expectation was set,

609
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 4: but like the idea is that you shouldn't wear the minimum.

610
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 4: You should be going above and beyond and wearing the

611
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 4: most flair you know. And I think, like it's amazing

612
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 4: how easy sometimes it is to incentivize workers to stay

613
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,239
Speaker 4: late or to work on the weekends. There's sort of

614
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 4: like the equivalent of like the free T shirt that

615
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 4: you can get, you know, like, what is about one

616
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 4: hundred dollars actually costing the company or what is it

617
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 4: costing you? So in the book, I advocate for a

618
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 4: more transactional approach to work. And it might sound crass

619
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,959
Speaker 4: to treat a job as a transaction, you know, especially

620
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 4: because we've been told that jobs are meant to be

621
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 4: meanings and identities and vocations and callings, not mere paychecks.

622
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 4: But I think a more transactional approach to work can

623
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 4: actually benefit both employers and employees. I think it freese

624
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 4: employers to be able to be straightforward about what the

625
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 4: expectations for good work looks like, to be clear and

626
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 4: setting up you know, this is what success would mean,

627
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 4: and these are the numbers that we're hoping you hit.

628
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 4: This is the sort of standards that we have here

629
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 4: as a company. And it frees employeees to you know,

630
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 4: talk about compensation in a fair way and not think

631
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 4: that somehow talking about money is undermining the best interest

632
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,239
Speaker 4: of the company. It freese employees to understand what is

633
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 4: expected of them, and more than anything, it frees employees

634
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 4: to treat work as part of, but not the entirety,

635
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 4: of their lives. And you know, we're talking a lot

636
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 4: about quiet quitting and workers that are sort of phoning

637
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 4: it in. I don't actually think that is a recipe

638
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 4: for fulfillment or happiness either, you know, Like, I'm sure

639
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 4: we can all relate to the workdays where you don't

640
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 4: have enough work to do and you're sort of just

641
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 4: twiddling your thumbs and the clock is moving slower than

642
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 4: you thought was humanly possible. I think treating work as

643
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 4: like a necessary evil is not necessarily a recipe for

644
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 4: fulfillment either. But I think why social media was invented

645
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 4: exactly just to fill all the it's like as it

646
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 4: fills all the unoccupied space in our days. But you know,

647
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,919
Speaker 4: I think it's it's finding that balance of like, what

648
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 4: do you want works role to be in your life?

649
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 4: How does that intersect with the necessities to do a

650
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 4: good enough job for your company, and how you can

651
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 4: invest the time and energy that you have in other

652
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 4: aspects of who you are. What I like about the

653
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 4: sort of title of the book, The Good Enough Job,

654
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 4: is that it's intentionally subjective. You know, you get to

655
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 4: decide what good enough means to you. Maybe it's a

656
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 4: job that pays a certain amount of money, or maybe

657
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 4: it's a job that has a certain title or is

658
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 4: in a certain industry, or maybe it's a job that

659
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 4: gets off at a certain hour so that you can

660
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 4: pick up your kids from childcare. But whatever sort of

661
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 4: your definition of good enough is, I employ you to

662
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 4: recognize when you have it, because that's what will allow

663
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 4: you to set better boundaries around when you can say

664
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 4: the workday is done and not necessarily feel like you're always,

665
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 4: you know, somehow fallen behind if you're not getting ahead.

666
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 3: That's right.

667
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, like you said, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

668
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: It's not, and it also shouldn't be your sole focus.

669
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 2: It's so hard to find that balance. But you've talked

670
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: about setting some of these boundaries here in your book,

671
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: and we're actually going to get to some of the

672
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 2: practical ways that we can try to help decide for

673
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 2: ourselves what the good enough job is.

674
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 3: We'll get to all of that right after this.

675
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: All right, we're back from the break, still talking with

676
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: Cimo stoles Off about doing work that's good enough, and

677
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: I really love that framework, but specifically, how do we

678
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: get there with the day job that we've got going on,

679
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: whether we're self employed or we have, you know, a

680
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: W two job. Let's talk simo for a second about

681
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: drawing better work boundaries, because I love the concept, but

682
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,479
Speaker 1: in practice it seems like it could be a little

683
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: more difficult. How do we make sure that we're working

684
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 1: the way we want, not being rung dry by our employer,

685
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: and that we still get to keep our job right

686
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: because we still got to pay the mortgage or the

687
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: rents or whatever it is.

688
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally, I think you know the question with boundaries,

689
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 4: it is tricky. It can be a fine line, literally,

690
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 4: and I think sometimes those boundaries are incumbent on the

691
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 4: worker to draw and sometimes the responsibility should actually lie

692
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 4: on the employer. My mentor that I mentioned earlier, and

693
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 4: Helen Peterson, she has this great distinction between the difference

694
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 4: between boundaries and guardrails. You can think about boundaries as

695
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 4: sort of like the line and then the all of

696
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 4: the highway that keeps you from going to from one

697
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 4: lane to another, whereas guardrails are structural. They're put in

698
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 4: place by the state they're the metal things on the

699
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 4: side of the road that keep you from going over.

700
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 4: And I think, you know, one of the problems with

701
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 4: individually imposed boundaries is that they inevitably break. You know,

702
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 4: you can have an intention to work less, but if

703
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 4: there is a deadline, or it's near the end of

704
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 4: the quarter and you have a quarterly sales goal, or

705
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 4: your boss tells you to work more hours, it can

706
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 4: be hard to raise your hand and be like, actually,

707
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 4: I have a boundary, you know. I mean, I definitely

708
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 4: found this in writing the book, you know, the great

709
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 4: Irony said, I was like working on this book about

710
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 4: the culture of overwork in America, and in many ways

711
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 4: I was my own worst manager then. So I would,

712
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 4: you know, feel crappy on weeks where I didn't hit

713
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 4: my writing goal and it wouldn't have to open up

714
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 4: the laptop on the weekend, even though I had a

715
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 4: quote unquote boundary that I didn't want to do that.

716
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 4: And so I think, you know, the first point is

717
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 4: that a lot of the onus to set these boundaries

718
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 4: actually should rest on the company and on managers and

719
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 4: creating cultures where it's okay for people to take time off,

720
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 4: creating plans in place for distributing the workload so that

721
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 4: there isn't an undue burden placed on any individual, hiring

722
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 4: enough employees so that there's enough work, enough workers to

723
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 4: spread out the work, and also creating norms around like

724
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 4: when you should be on or.

725
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 3: Off the clock.

726
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 4: But I also think that individuals also deserve a certain

727
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 4: level of responsibility that the one step that I always

728
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,479
Speaker 4: come back to is in Japan they have the most

729
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 4: progressive parental leave and specifically for fathers parntal Leaf policy

730
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 4: and the world, fathers are entitled to up to a

731
00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 4: year of paid time after they have a kid. The

732
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 4: last data that I looked at, only five percent of

733
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 4: Japanese fathers took the entirety of the time that they

734
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 4: were allotted, And so it sort of points to these

735
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 4: two necessities. There needs to be the sort of policies

736
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 4: in place that allow people to do things other than

737
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 4: work or prioritize things outside of their work life. But

738
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 4: there also needs to be the cultural will to do so.

739
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 4: And I think that is what some of this kind

740
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 4: of deprogramming or having a sufficiency mindset when it comes

741
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 4: to work can allow us to do.

742
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's and this is why we love your approach, Cimo.

743
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 2: I mean, you're finding yourself in the radical middle, because

744
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 2: I feel like it's easy just to point to one

745
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: end of the spectrum or the other and be like,

746
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 2: that's the devil if we need to do the or exactly.

747
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, you're saying, you know, there is a certain

748
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 2: degree of responsibility that falls with the actual company, but

749
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that we're not off the hook. And

750
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 2: I think in particular, we need a channel our efforts

751
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: in the areas that I think where we can move

752
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 2: the needle the most for us as individuals. And when

753
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 2: it came to for you to talk about some of

754
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 2: the different boundaries that we can draw in our lives,

755
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,479
Speaker 2: like you talk about too, how there are some folks

756
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 2: who like to have their work to be more integrated

757
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: within their life, right, And so it's not even saying

758
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 2: that what you should do is have hard boundaries and

759
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 2: that's going to be how you're going to be able

760
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: to achieve happiness and a successful life. But it seems

761
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 2: like you're just asking a lot of questions and you

762
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 2: want individuals to kind of do the hard work, and

763
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:32,919
Speaker 2: it seems like that that is at the core of

764
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 2: The problem here is that a lot of individuals they

765
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 2: are not doing that difficult work. They're not setting goals

766
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 2: for themselves. You know, they're chasing status. They're chasing after

767
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 2: rankings or job titles or salaries as opposed to taking

768
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: the time and thinking through what it is that they

769
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 2: want for themselves. I mean, do you feel like that

770
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: that's accurate?

771
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally. And you know, I mean the actual form

772
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 4: out of the book is a chronicle people's stories in

773
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 4: different industries, and the one that stands out here is

774
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 4: the story of a Wall Street banker that I tell

775
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 4: it's perhaps like the most cliche story in the book.

776
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 4: This guy was a valedictorian and he went to an

777
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 4: Ivy League college and got a job on Wall Street

778
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 4: that paid the most, and quickly rose up the ranks

779
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 4: of the firm and was one of the youngest vps

780
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 4: in the firm's history. And from his perch at the

781
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 4: top of the org chart, he realized that he was

782
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 4: playing a game that he didn't actually want to win, so,

783
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 4: you know, and he hadn't taken the time to look

784
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 4: up and ask, what is it that I actually want?

785
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 4: You know, he was always just chasing what the market valued.

786
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 4: But I think you know, the wisdom in his story

787
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 4: is that the other end of the spectrum, where you

788
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 4: just think about what you want without considering what the

789
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 4: market wants, is dangerous as well. It's the kind of

790
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 4: thing that might get you in a situation where you

791
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 4: assume a lot of student debt to pursue a graduate

792
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 4: degree that might not actually lead to job on the

793
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 4: other end, or a situation where you're an artist but

794
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,720
Speaker 4: you're so preoccupied by how you're going to pay rent

795
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 4: that you can't actually focus on the art that you

796
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 4: hope to create. And so, you know, it might be

797
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 4: a little simplistic, but I think it's really important to

798
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 4: hold both of those incentives in your hand at the

799
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 4: same time and thinking about, Okay, what is it that

800
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 4: I value, what is it that the market values, and

801
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,479
Speaker 4: how can I find work that marries the two.

802
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

803
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: So, one of the things I loved about your book

804
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: was that it wasn't some sort of self help ten

805
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 1: steps to a better relationship with your job, and it

806
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: was more storytelling. But I guess I am also curious

807
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: at the end, like when we talk about having that

808
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 1: conversation with your boss, with your direct manager, Let's say

809
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 1: you've been somewhere for years and you feel like, over

810
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: time there's just been this encroachment and so I feel

811
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: like that of your employer on your own personal time,

812
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: and you found it harder to set boundaries, which I

813
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: think probably a lot of people could relate to that.

814
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: What does it look like then, too, I mean you

815
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,879
Speaker 1: might start looking down the road to work somewhere else, right,

816
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: that's potentially one solution. But what if you're like, I

817
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: really like my job, I would just like to have

818
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 1: a more normal relationship with it. How would you suggest

819
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 1: starting to have that conversation with your direct supervisor to

820
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 1: kind of set up boundaries that are going to make

821
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: sense for both of you.

822
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you know, there are things that you

823
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 4: can do within the confines of the workplace, and there

824
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 4: are things that you can do outside of the workplace.

825
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 4: When it comes to talking with your manager, I always

826
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 4: go back to just clarity of expectations. I think one

827
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 4: thing that drives people to over work is this desire

828
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 4: to sort of perform that they're doing a good job.

829
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 4: You know, this in the office world might mean just

830
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 4: like putting in FaceTime at the office and staying at

831
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 4: your desk. In the home world, that might be you know,

832
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 4: just sitting around on Slack or Microsoft teams waiting for

833
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 4: someone to send you a message. But what we should

834
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 4: be valuing is the quality of the work itself. And

835
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 4: so that's where I often start when I advise people

836
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 4: about talking to their bosses or their managers, having a

837
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 4: very clear conversation about, Okay, what where are we What

838
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 4: is the sort of like status of the quality of

839
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 4: the work that I am producing? Where am I meeting expectations?

840
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 4: Where am I exceeding expectations? If you want to try

841
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 4: and get promoted or move to the next level, what

842
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 4: is the type of work that you are expected to do?

843
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 4: And just making some of those things clear and so

844
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 4: you're not just sort of putting in pennies to the

845
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 4: proverbial work piggybank, hoping to cash out one day, but

846
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,439
Speaker 4: you're actually, you know, working clearly towards what good work

847
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 4: looks like at your company. When it comes to your

848
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 4: life outside of work.

849
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: Focusing on the work, I like that, Yeah, yeah, not

850
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: on the other stuff. Hey, oh am I here enough?

851
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: Am I here enough hours? I feel like that. That's presenteeism.

852
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: You start to feel like that's part of the work

853
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:58,879
Speaker 1: that's required, but that's not.

854
00:44:58,840 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 3: The work totally.

855
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 4: You know, certain industries are just really set up in

856
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 4: a way that then make this very hard. Like I

857
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 4: think I'm thinking of like lawyers, for example, who are

858
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 4: asked to track their billable hours in like six minute

859
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 4: or fifteen minute increments. And I was talking to a

860
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 4: few lawyers for the book, and they were saying, you know,

861
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 4: it is disincentive for me to do efficient work. You

862
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 4: know that I get no material award for working efficiently

863
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 4: or doing high quality of work. It's all just about

864
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 4: the number of hours I spend on the work. And

865
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 4: that incentive structure is just so backwards, you know. Like

866
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 4: I understand that lawyers bill hourly, and so there should

867
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 4: be an expectation that they're you know, doing a certain

868
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 4: number of hours in order to do the work for

869
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 4: the firm. But you know, what we should be rewarding

870
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 4: is the quality of the work itself. And I think

871
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 4: that can be extended to so many other fields. The

872
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 4: thing I always advise people for outside of the office

873
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 4: is you know, I talked a little bit about doing

874
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 4: things other than work and practice. This means sort of

875
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:05,879
Speaker 4: like having active forms of leisure. You know, like, if

876
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 4: you want to conceive of yourself as more than just

877
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 4: someone who exists on this earth to produce economic value

878
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 4: or economic returns for a corporation, try and find realms

879
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 4: of your life where people maybe don't even know what

880
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 4: you do for work or don't care about your job title.

881
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 3: You know.

882
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 4: And this doesn't necessarily have to be taking up knitting

883
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 4: or a personal hobby. While I do think there is

884
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 4: value in being able to do something just for the

885
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 4: joy of it or just for the fun of it.

886
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 4: It can mean getting involved in your neighborhood or your

887
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 4: local community. It can mean finding a community of people

888
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:48,240
Speaker 4: like a sports team or a book club, that your

889
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 4: value to that community is not tied to your value

890
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 4: in the office. It's something where you can show up

891
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 4: in a different realm and start to kind of cultivate

892
00:46:58,160 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 4: those different identities.

893
00:46:59,680 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 3: You know.

894
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 4: Just a recent example, I'm Jewish, and there are there's

895
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 4: like a dormant Jewish identity somewhere deep inside of me.

896
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 4: I'm not very not a very active Jew. But you know,

897
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 4: recently it was Passover and you know, I sat around

898
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 4: the table with my family and we participated in some

899
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 4: of the traditions of the religion. And it was through

900
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 4: that behavior, it was through that activity of actively doing

901
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 4: something related to Judaism that I felt my identity as

902
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 4: a Jewish person began to grow. And so you can

903
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 4: think about that in any realm of your life, whether

904
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 4: you're a craft beer aficionado, that identity will grow if

905
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 4: you are actively taking time to learn more about the

906
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 4: craft beers, are going out drinking with friends.

907
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 3: Just don't let it grow too much. Tay sober out there, folks.

908
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, but absolutely, well, Simo, this has been an awesome conversation.

909
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 2: We really appreciate you taking a time to just talk

910
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 2: to us about finding that balance. Where is it that

911
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 2: folks can learn more about you and specific where they

912
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 2: can find your book?

913
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:04,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, the best place to go is the good Enough

914
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 4: job dot com. And this is my first book and

915
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 4: so every order or pre order really makes a big difference,

916
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 4: and there you can find all of my socials and

917
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 4: other information that you might need.

918
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, thank you again for joining us here on

919
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 2: the podcast, Eemo.

920
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me all right, Matt gotta love that

921
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 1: conversation with Simone. I feel like there is like so

922
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 1: much of what he has written about and what he

923
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 1: talks about we've talked about in different ways over the years, exactly,

924
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 1: not with the eloquence or the precision.

925
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 2: We certainly have not written a book on it. I mean,

926
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 2: it's just one of the reasons I mean that we

927
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 2: wanted to have him on because the message that he

928
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 2: has it's so important, and honestly, the more ways that

929
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: you can talk about it, like the different angles that

930
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 2: you can take to the same end goal, well, if

931
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,240
Speaker 2: that helps others to find that balance and to find

932
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 2: that fulfillment and happiness in life, we are all for

933
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:56,359
Speaker 2: it for sure.

934
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 3: All right. So what was your big takeaway from this combo?

935
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: Was it that we should all be more chocolate cookies,

936
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: preferably with a little bit of sea salt, That a

937
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 1: little bit of sea salt really makes them stand down?

938
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 2: I think I thought you made Yeah. Personally, I like

939
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 2: a touch of oatmeal in there as well, just say

940
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 2: it adds a little bit of chew, just not raisins.

941
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not raisins.

942
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 2: You hate on raisins there, Okay, So I think my

943
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 2: big takeaway is that so many of the things, so

944
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 2: many of the problems in the different myths that he

945
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 2: addresses in the book. It's not that they are something

946
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 2: we should completely avoid, but it's just that we are

947
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 2: relying on our job to meet those ends more than

948
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 2: we should. Uh So, for instance, when it comes to

949
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 2: the job you do, should you be passionate about it? Well,

950
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 2: maybe we should be less focused on the passion side

951
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 2: of things and instead, first and foremost, like he said,

952
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 2: we should be thinking about it like an economic contract. Yes,

953
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,359
Speaker 2: I'm going to exchange my time and my talents for

954
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 2: a paycheck.

955
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 3: And if you like the job, that's great to be

956
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 3: on top exactly.

957
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And how maybe we shouldn't be looking to our

958
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 2: jobs to find that interpersonal relationship and to the extent

959
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 2: that we even think of our coworkers as family, but

960
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,879
Speaker 2: instead we should maybe maintain a degre of professionalism. And

961
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 2: if we think about it from maybe more of that

962
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 2: transactional framework, Like within that framework, I think it could

963
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 2: be healthier because honestly, I feel like it kind of

964
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 2: goes counter to what a lot of folks are saying,

965
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 2: where they're just like, oh, no, no, no, you know,

966
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,439
Speaker 2: like the whole if you're an employee here, we treat

967
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:17,399
Speaker 2: you like family.

968
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: And like that whole approach but it benefits from that

969
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:20,919
Speaker 1: relationship typically the employer, yeah, not you.

970
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,359
Speaker 2: And it leaves the employee in an unhealthy position once

971
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 2: you get fired or once you leave that job and

972
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,879
Speaker 2: you're trying to and you're rudderless, you're trying to figure

973
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 2: out what you're going to do next.

974
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 3: But I thought we were family.

975
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. Yeah, So I just I don't know. It's

976
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 2: interesting to hear someone take an approach towards your work,

977
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 2: towards your career that d emphasizes the like the interpersonal

978
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 2: side of things. It's it's sort of like it's a

979
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 2: way that he is finding himself in the middle because

980
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 2: he's not going to the far extreme and saying that like, oh, yeah,

981
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 2: we should all be completely disenchanted with our job. We

982
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 2: should only be thinking about it as a contract.

983
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 3: But or that you should only do the bare minimum either,

984
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:57,479
Speaker 3: right exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

985
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 2: So there's a way to find fulfilling work, and there's

986
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 2: also a way to find work that's going to pay

987
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 2: you well, but you don't necessarily have to sell your

988
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 2: soul in order to achieve that on either end of

989
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 2: the spectrum.

990
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 3: Yep, No, I think it's a good way to put it.

991
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 3: My big take about you though.

992
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, when he said all of our identities need investments,

993
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: I thought that was great. And he basically talked about

994
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: how they're similar to houseplants, and my thought was, Man,

995
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 1: a lot of our houseplants, at least in my house,

996
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: are parched, like we're not doing a good enough job

997
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 1: with them. And I think the same is true for

998
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,439
Speaker 1: a lot of our identities different areas in our life. Yeah,

999
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: like when it comes to spouse, when it comes to parent,

1000
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: when it comes to community involvement. We talked about that

1001
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 1: Wall Street journal. I can't get that out of my head,

1002
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: just that poll about how people value money more than

1003
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: they value community, more than they value patriotism, or than

1004
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: they value family these days. It speaks so much about

1005
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: where we're at as a culture. I think we value

1006
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 1: our careers way more than we value a lot of

1007
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 1: those things too, because our careers are so tied to money,

1008
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: and that is a shame. And so we need to

1009
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,800
Speaker 1: start to think about how we can start watering, start pruning,

1010
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: start taking care of those other identity forming factors in

1011
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,919
Speaker 1: our lives, like hobbies, like interpersonal relationships. And I think

1012
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: that will in all likelihood mean putting a little bit

1013
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 1: less into work and career, and I think we'll be

1014
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 1: happier for it. So I guess is this where I

1015
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 1: put in my two weeks Notice, Matt, sure, yeah, just kidding.

1016
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,479
Speaker 3: But now we are more how to money for folks.

1017
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 3: We try not to overdo it and and that.

1018
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 2: Is all about finding that balance.

1019
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: Part of the reason we love it because we're not

1020
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: working sixty hours a week doing it. But Matt, let's

1021
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: go back to the beer that we had on this episode.

1022
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 1: This is a beer I picked up when I was

1023
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: out on the West Coast. It's Ye scrap Alicious by

1024
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: Los Angeles Aleworks.

1025
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 3: What are your thoughts on this ipa? The whole scrap

1026
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 3: Alicious thing?

1027
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:38,959
Speaker 2: Is that the name of this cat?

1028
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 3: I think so? Is it like a brewery cat?

1029
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 2: I think it makes me think about when we were

1030
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 2: in Kentucky and we went to Peerless Distillery. They had

1031
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 2: a distillery cat that's right, that hung around there in

1032
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 2: the gift shop. But yeah, man, this was a fantastic

1033
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,360
Speaker 2: juicy ipa, as it's written here on the label. Just

1034
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 2: like our conversation with Simone, it strikes the balance between

1035
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,280
Speaker 2: being incredibly juicy and having the right amount of sweetness,

1036
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,839
Speaker 2: but at the same time, it's got like that sharpness,

1037
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 2: the bitterness that you get from the Hops. It It's

1038
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 2: been a minute since I've said blue cheese as I've

1039
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 2: described an IPA, but this one kind of had some

1040
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 2: of those sharp blue cheese elements, and when you're able

1041
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 2: to strike that perfect balance between the two, you end

1042
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:21,439
Speaker 2: up with an amazing beer.

1043
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 1: I feel like when you describe an IPA, you don't

1044
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: typically want to describe it as funky, but occasionally there

1045
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: is an IPA.

1046
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 3: And blue cheese is funky.

1047
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can call it funky and it's a

1048
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 1: good thing. Sometimes if it's funky, it means that it's

1049
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 1: as a bad thing. Yeah, it's like, oh no, this

1050
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 1: is a shelfterd. This was on the shelf from a

1051
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 1: year or two, and so it kind of tastes a

1052
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 1: little funky, but this is like, no, no, no. The

1053
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: Hops bring a level of yeah that just some kind

1054
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: of unique notes from from the Hop set that they

1055
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,360
Speaker 1: put into this IPA, And so I like it. It

1056
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:54,359
Speaker 1: was juicy, a little funky, and overall good vibes from

1057
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: this one.

1058
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1059
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 2: Specifically, if you're really into the Hops, it's got I've

1060
00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 2: never even heard of these first two hops brew one

1061
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 2: Loral and then Sabro. Yeah, I've seen those hops on

1062
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 2: labels it before, but not this first two. So so

1063
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 2: many hot varieties now, it's ridiculous. You know, you just

1064
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 2: gotta go down there one of these days. You want

1065
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 2: to go to a hot farm down to New Zealand.

1066
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 3: Uh, yeah, that sounds pretty cool. Field trip.

1067
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 2: Maybe in like five ten years. But yeah, enough about

1068
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,800
Speaker 2: the beer. Be sure to look out for Simone's book.

1069
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 2: It's set to be published here in a couple of weeks.

1070
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 2: I found it to be incredibly thought provoking and hopefully

1071
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 2: I wonder if this is one of his goals.

1072
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 3: But just for you to be able to.

1073
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,840
Speaker 2: Ask yourself a bunch of different questions as you process

1074
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 2: and do the hard work of figuring out what it

1075
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 2: is that you're looking for, not just in your statement,

1076
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:40,799
Speaker 2: yeah exactly, not just in your job, but honestly just

1077
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 2: in life overall. But we'll make sure to have links

1078
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 2: up on the website at how Tomoney dot com and Buddy,

1079
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 2: that's going to be it for this episode until next time.

1080
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 3: Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out.

1081
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 4: He don't hope