1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, Cocklay and Android 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: The Nvidia price action comes after the news the company 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 2: revealed last night, which is that the US government has 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 2: put new restrictions on its ability to send its each 9 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: twenty chip to export it to China. The company says 10 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: this is going to result in a five point five 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 2: billion dollar write down in the current quarter tied to 12 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 2: inventory and previous commitments for the chip, and video is 13 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 2: not the only one. AMD also expecting a charge of 14 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: as much as eight hundred million dollars after the administration 15 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 2: put restrictions on it too, specifically its ability to export 16 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 2: its Mi I three to eight products to China. All 17 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 2: of this is the US is trying to restrict China's 18 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: access to an ability to develop advanced semiconductor technology and 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 2: the things that that technology ultimately powers. So for more, 20 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 2: we turned to Ed Ludlow, who was co host of 21 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Technology. Thanks for being here, Ed, Obviously there were 22 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 2: already restrictions in place that companies like in Vidia were 23 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: grappling with. But this EACH twenty chip was supposed to 24 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 2: be a way to get around the problem of export controls. 25 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: Now it is once again falling victim to controls. 26 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly what both are sort of political and 27 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 3: markets audience needs to understand that the specific technology that 28 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 3: is as of this morning, you know, subject to these 29 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 3: additional license requirements, was already a result of what the 30 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 3: Biden administration had put in place. Like in Vidia's H 31 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 3: twenty for example, they designed it in twenty twenty three 32 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 3: with the hopes that it would get around circumvent those restrictions. 33 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 3: You know, from Vidia a five point five billion dollar 34 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 3: write down. That's literally basically that the loss of being 35 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 3: unable to sell inventory that was already admitted to customers 36 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 3: is a pain, you know. But for AMD, even though 37 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 3: their dollar sales is much less than in Vida, proportionately, 38 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 3: China is so important, and the context you need to 39 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 3: remember is like these are American companies. They are the 40 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 3: biggest technology companies in the world. In Vidia literally the 41 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 3: biggest player in AI markets, and there was a time 42 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 3: where China was the most important end market for cloud computing, 43 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 3: and video has already moved away. You know, twenty twenty two, 44 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 3: China was about twenty five twenty six percent revenue. It's 45 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 3: now low double digits, and most people see it going 46 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 3: to single digits. But this is the trade off the 47 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 3: administration needs to work with these companies on. They want 48 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 3: to onshore them in the US, but need to consider 49 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 3: the end markets they're now being cut off from. 50 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and how that may impact that these companies' 51 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 2: ability to invest in things like a greater capacity in 52 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: the United States. Are we to assume ed that actually 53 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 2: getting licenses to continue exporting these ships is completely out 54 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:56,959 Speaker 2: of the question. 55 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 3: Well, I had the opportunity this morning to ask the 56 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 3: President's advisor and Director of the Office for Science Technology Policy, 57 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 3: Michael Kratzios, and he declined to answer, and the audience 58 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 3: can read into that what they will It was a 59 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 3: very specific question, will you advise the President to allow 60 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 3: AMD and VIDIA to have a license? The point is 61 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 3: that these chips are much lower performance than the leading 62 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 3: edge product that both of them produce. The concern and 63 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 3: anxiety from the White House is that they're still capable 64 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 3: of going into an AI supercomputer, and that from a 65 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 3: national security perspective, China could use that lower level technology 66 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 3: for the things it's concerned about. But again he declined 67 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 3: to comment. It's going to be really interesting to see 68 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 3: how they play it. My question to your panel throughout 69 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 3: the week in the shows is what happens next, right, 70 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 3: because the thing we've hadn't talked about is which Chinese 71 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 3: companies were buying those chips Ali, Barba, ten Cent, Byte Dance. 72 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 3: I'd be really curious if the If America thinks about 73 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 3: something called an entity list and goes much more specific 74 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 3: on how it prevents the transfer of technology. 75 00:03:58,440 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, we have a lot. 76 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 2: Of questions about how much further this could snowball. Add 77 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: to your point about this being kind of a lower 78 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: capability chip than others, are there still further rungs on 79 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 2: the ladder that the administration could decide to go down 80 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 2: and restrict exports when it comes to one in Vidia 81 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 2: and am D make. 82 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, an entity list is interesting because you basically say, okay, 83 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 3: American companies, you cannot sell to these specific Chinese companies. 84 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 3: We've listed them for you, but those are the biggest customers. 85 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 3: There's another way of thinking about this. You know the 86 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 3: expression that takes two to tango and in a trade 87 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 3: or tariffs or restrictions environment. Think about it from China's perspective, 88 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 3: Huawei is becoming their national champion of cutting edge technology. 89 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 3: They have a similar chip that does what Nvidia and 90 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 3: AMD's lower level chips can do. But those Chinese companies 91 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 3: wanted to use the American technology. There is an argument 92 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 3: made by some on my show earlier today, Denny Fish, 93 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 3: who has billions of dollars of those stocks, that All 94 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 3: America is doing inadvertently or indirectly is allowing China to 95 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 3: move forward with on shoring and elevating its own domestic industry. 96 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 3: So that's a very interesting thing, right, You're cutting off 97 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 3: sales of your main American technology companies on the hope 98 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 3: that they shift activities for us and that they have 99 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 3: other customers outside of China. 100 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 2: All right, Ed Ludlow, co host of Bloomberg Technology, thank 101 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 2: you so much. And we want to keep the focus 102 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 2: on China and specifically the prospect of trade negotiations opening 103 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 2: up between Washington in Beijing. As we learned today some 104 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 2: details about what China might be asking for before they're 105 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: willing to go to the table, And it's to Bloomberg's 106 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 2: Tyler Kendall, who is life at the White House, that 107 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: we turn to for those details. So, Tyler, obviously there's 108 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 2: a number of things here based on our reporting. How 109 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 2: likely is the administration to acquiesce to what China wants? 110 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, hey, Killy, Well, that really remains to be seen. 111 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 5: Considering that one of the big points here that we're learning, 112 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 5: per a person familiar with the Chinese government's thinking, is 113 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 5: that Beijing would like to see a point person appointed 114 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 5: to lead these talks other than President Trump. And we 115 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 5: know that this White House has repeatedly said that he 116 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 5: would be directly involved, and even the President and himself 117 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 5: has said that he is waiting for Xijingping's call. Still, 118 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 5: this is kind of our first insight that we've really 119 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 5: seen into potentially what could break what has been weeks 120 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 5: of escalation between the two countries. Also, importantly, the source 121 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 5: familiar telling Bloomberg News that the most important precondition is 122 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 5: going to be for Chinese officials to feel that they 123 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 5: are treated with respect. It appears that Beijing would like 124 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 5: to see President Trump start to disavow when his cabinet 125 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 5: members for example, criticized China, even if President Trump himself 126 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 5: says that he has a good relationship with Jijingping. So far, 127 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 5: we have to see where this goes, because we do 128 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 5: know that the White House would like China to ultimately 129 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 5: reach out directly, and we should say that that tactic 130 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 5: has helped expedite negotiations in some cases. Take today, for example, 131 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 5: Japan is here with negotiators in Washington, and Japan was 132 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 5: one of those countries that did reach out directly to 133 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 5: President Trump with a phone call between the Prime Minister 134 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 5: and the White House, and officials have repeatedly pointed us 135 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 5: to the fact that Japan would get priority status because 136 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 5: as they felt that they reached out very quickly to negotiate. 137 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 5: And while we talk about who is talking and who's 138 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 5: not talking, we have to always keep in mind, of 139 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 5: course Japan, but also those other countries like South Korea 140 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 5: and Vietnam geographically close to China that this White House 141 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 5: seems to be prioritizing and calls. As Jijipan completes his 142 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 5: own tour of Southeast Asia countries, as he tries to 143 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 5: talk to those leaders directly to shore up his support. 144 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: Yeah and Bloomberg has some fresh reporting out today Tyler 145 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 2: about how the administration may be asking countries like Japan 146 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: to be considering putting their own tariffs on China as 147 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 2: part of these negotiations. What other asks could the Japanese 148 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: who are in Washington today face from the administration. 149 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 5: Right And that reporting is particularly interesting because Bloomberg News 150 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 5: had actually reported that a few months ago, remember when 151 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 5: those Mexico tariff talks were underway, that the US had 152 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 5: been pressuring Mexico to lift its own terraffs against China. 153 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 5: So this does appear to be a repeat of a 154 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 5: potential strategy here by the administration, as we've heard Scott 155 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 5: Bessen for example, say that he would like to see 156 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 5: a coalition form together and then they could tackle ultimately 157 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 5: what happens there with China remains to be seen. Exactly 158 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 5: what's going to be put on the table when it 159 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 5: comes to these talks with Japan. President Trump of coursing 160 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 5: and his truth social posts that they'll be talking about 161 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 5: trade imbalances as well as American military support. As you 162 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 5: well know, all of these talks are going well beyond 163 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 5: just those tariff barriers. We could keep in mind that 164 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 5: Japan has already pledged, for example, that it would boost 165 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 5: US LNG imports into the country, So perhaps that could 166 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 5: be one of the factors here on the table as 167 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 5: we wait to learn more. But one thing that we 168 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 5: do know, Keiley. President Trump says he's going to be 169 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 5: directly involved in these talks today, even though they're not 170 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 5: at the leader level. He's going to appear alongside his 171 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 5: Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnik and Treasury Secretary Scott Besson. 172 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: All Right, bloombergs Tyler Kendall live at the White House 173 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 2: here on Bloomberg TV and Radio. Thank you so much 174 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: for your reporting, and now we get analysis from our 175 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 2: political panel, Rick Davis and Jeanie Shanzy. You know both 176 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 2: of them Bloomberg Politics contributors. Rick also a Republican strategists 177 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: and partner at Stone Court Capital. Genie democratic analyst and 178 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: senior Democracy fellow at the Center for the Study of 179 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 2: the Presidency. And Rick, when we consider these negotiations that 180 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 2: are now beginning, knowing that there is a ninety day 181 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 2: window that is getting ever shorter that the administration has 182 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 2: left for itself here to ink all of these various 183 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 2: trade deals, how important is it for them to have 184 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 2: quick victories, quick deals to announce. 185 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 6: You know, I don't think it's really that critical for 186 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 6: them to have a lot of quick deals show momentum. 187 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 6: I mean, maybe if they're trying to regain some of 188 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 6: the footing that's lost in the markets, that would make 189 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 6: some sense. But I think, really this is a much 190 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 6: bigger thing. And I think you conversation with Tyler kind 191 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 6: of kicks it off, and that is this is about 192 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 6: isolating China, right. You'll notice everybody else got a reprieve 193 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 6: with them. This has been a real focus of Donald 194 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 6: Trump since his first presidency, is to basically divide the 195 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 6: world along the lines of their friends of China and 196 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 6: their friends of the United States. And we haven't seen 197 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 6: this kind of alignment since the Soviet Union, you know, 198 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 6: sphere of influence strategies that the US used to have 199 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 6: to go through during the Cold War. And so at 200 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 6: the end of the day, I think what you see 201 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 6: is this decoupling. You see trying to isolate China, and 202 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 6: you see the use of the military in the Pacific. 203 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 6: You see the use of diplomacy abroad, you see the 204 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 6: use of economics at home and abroad, and I think 205 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 6: these are all the toolkits at Trump's using to try 206 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 6: and basically created deterrent to Chinese influence around the world. 207 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 2: Well, but he still says he wants China to pick 208 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 2: up the phone and call He'd like to make a deal. 209 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 2: As the contention of him and others in the White 210 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 2: House Genie and Tyler was just outlining some of the 211 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 2: things China, according to our reporting, wants to see first 212 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 2: guarantees that they'll be respected, there will be one point person, 213 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 2: that there will be consistency in US policy. Do you 214 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 2: see those things as likely to be delivered by the 215 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 2: Trump administration. 216 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 7: We haven't seen a sign of it yet. You know, 217 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 7: Donald Trump has famously described himself as a great deal maker, 218 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 7: and yet on the very issues he needs to make deals, 219 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 7: so far in the last eighty days he has fallen short. Now, granted, 220 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 7: we have to give him some time. But you know, 221 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 7: as I'm listening to Rick, I'm thinking that may have 222 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 7: all been true for Donald Trump one point oh, But 223 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 7: in Donald Trump two point oh, if we are trying 224 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 7: to decouple from China, if we are trying to isolate China, 225 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 7: we are doing a heck of a job doing that. 226 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 7: Why the tariffs on every country in the world. Why 227 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 7: start with Canada and Mexico. Why drive so many of 228 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 7: our allies to seek relationships with China? Why is Jijinping 229 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 7: traveling around the world right now shoring up those relationships. 230 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 7: So if that was the intent, and I actually agree 231 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 7: with the intent, then it is a heck of a 232 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 7: way to roll out that policy. And I think that's 233 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 7: the problem here. There was a smart way to do 234 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 7: targeted tariffs on China to get where we need to go, 235 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 7: and we do need to get there, but this is 236 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 7: not the way. And so now Donald Trump is caught 237 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 7: up in trying to negotiate with every country around the 238 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 7: world as opposed to focusing, like a laser beam, where 239 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 7: we should be focused, which is on China. 240 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 2: Well, he obviously was not shy about talking about China 241 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 2: on the campaign trail, which is how we got to 242 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 2: Trump two point zero. Rick is in part because he 243 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: campaigned on this, but he also campaigned on just the 244 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 2: idea that he thinks tariffs are the way to revive 245 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 2: the American manufacturing economy and make the US greater than 246 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: it was before. Can we quantify the actual domestic support 247 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: for any of these policies, whether it comes to China 248 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: or the wider tariff regime that is in place. 249 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, obviously, you're right. It's not just a 250 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 6: weapon or a tool of diplomacy and foreign relations. It's 251 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 6: a way, in Donald Trump's mind that you take off 252 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 6: pressures from taxation on the American public and allow the 253 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 6: world to fund our country in our government. And so 254 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 6: he hasn't really invested too heavily in selling that. Obviously 255 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 6: it was a big part of his campaign, but you'll 256 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 6: notice that most of the tariff discussion has not been 257 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 6: as a way of avoiding taxing our citizens in his 258 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 6: rhetoric up until this point in time. And I would 259 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 6: say without that, the American public is basically seeing, and 260 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 6: we're seeing it in the consumer surveys and the polling 261 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 6: that they don't like it very much. It's destabilizing the economy. 262 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 6: They are very pessimistic about the future. They think it'll 263 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 6: help increase inflation. I mean, basically, all the detractors who 264 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 6: have been anti tariffs have been seemingly getting through to 265 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 6: these consumers and voters much more clearly than Donald Trump has. 266 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 8: Well. 267 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 2: And you're starting to see that showing up in town halls, 268 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 2: or arguably we've already been seeing it. But take the 269 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 2: example of Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa Genie, who just 270 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 2: got an earful Although he already was kind of skeptical 271 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 2: of tariffs, he was one of the co sponsors of 272 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: that bipartisan legislation that would reassert Congress's authority over the 273 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 2: matter that got a veto threat from the right House already. 274 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: But for the others in Congress who are at home 275 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 2: in their districts right now for the Eastern recess, do 276 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: you expect they could return to Washington, d C. On 277 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 2: the other side of it with a different attitude when 278 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 2: it comes to. 279 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 7: Tariff's Absolutely, because they will be talking to constituents who 280 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 7: are hurt by this tariff taxation plan that the President 281 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 7: has put into place. You know, the President is sitting 282 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 7: in the Oval Office saying, well, you know, I like 283 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 7: Tim Cook. I just talked to Tim Cook. I made 284 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 7: an exception for Tim Cook. But these representatives and senators 285 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 7: will be talking to their constituents, big and small business owners, 286 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 7: people who have jobs that rely on trade and free 287 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 7: trade around the world. And the way the President has 288 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 7: gone about this is reckless and we're seeing it, as 289 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 7: Rick said in the Consumer Confidence, we're seeing it in 290 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 7: the polls. And the President has yet to explain what 291 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 7: the goal is. If the goal is to reshore and 292 00:14:55,040 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 7: build manufacturing, exemptions work in the opposite direction, why the 293 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 7: exemptions right? If the goal is to raise revenue, why 294 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 7: the exemptions right? So he not only has done this 295 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 7: in a reckless way, he has been unable to articulate 296 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 7: the goal, and he has been able to articulate how 297 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 7: long this pain will be felt by the American public. 298 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 7: Congressmen and women will hear all of that overbreak, and 299 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 7: they may return saying we need to claim back some 300 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 7: of our power. Although it's Congress, Kayley, so I wouldn't 301 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 7: hold my bet they'll do anything right away. 302 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 2: Fair enough, Jeanie Shanzeno and Rick Davis, our political panel. 303 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 2: Thank you. 304 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power Podcast. Catch 305 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, 306 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You 307 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 308 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: New York station, Just say Alexa, play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 309 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: I'm Kaylee Lines in Washington, where there is a jack. 310 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 2: Theanese delegation also today specifically here to meet with members 311 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 2: of the administration, and according to President Trump, the President himself, 312 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 2: all of this of course about trade. President Trump posting 313 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 2: on True Social earlier today, Japan is coming in today 314 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 2: to negotiate tariffs, the cost of military support, and this 315 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 2: is in capitals and quotes trade fairness. He says, I 316 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 2: will attend the meeting along with the Treasury and Commerce secretaries. 317 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: Hopefully something can be worked out, which is good, great 318 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: for Japan and the USA. So we want to get 319 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 2: more on this now with Nancy Cook Bloomberg, Senior National 320 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: political correspondent. Nancy, we've known that the US was really 321 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 2: prioritizing Japan and this series of trade negotiations with many 322 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 2: different countries that have yet to unfold. I believe it 323 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 2: was the first country we actually heard Secretary Bessent say 324 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: they're opening formal conversations with what exactly will the objective 325 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: be when it comes to Japan specifically. 326 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 4: Well, I think that a big thing that the administration 327 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 4: is trying to do is, you know, come up with 328 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 4: trade deals with each individual country, and part of those 329 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 4: trade deals involve sort of lessening the trade imbalance that 330 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 4: the US has with any other country. But a big 331 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 4: part of the negotiations, I'm told by White House officials, 332 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 4: is also sort of making sure that the other countries 333 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 4: have some criteria to also impose potentially secondary tariffs on China. 334 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 4: So as part of those negotiations, it's not just that 335 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 4: they want sort of a better deal with Japan, let's say, 336 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 4: in the US, they also want Japan to take some 337 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 4: sort of measures towards China, and they're going to be 338 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 4: asking that. The administration is going to be asking that 339 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 4: of a lot of the countries that they negotiate with, 340 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 4: and so it'll be really interesting to see how that 341 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 4: goes because this is sort of going to be one 342 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 4: of the first negotiations that we really see out in 343 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 4: the open. 344 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 2: Well, So is that just all in an attempt to 345 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 2: gain more leverage for when negotiations with China eventually opened, 346 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 2: because Bloomberg's reporting is indicating today there's a number of 347 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 2: steps China would like to see this administration take before 348 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 2: they're willing to begin those talks. 349 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 4: Of course, I mean, I think China does not want 350 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 4: to be embarrassed by the situation, and they want a 351 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 4: bunch of steps. They want initial contact contact, They want 352 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 4: to feel like there's going to be a measure of 353 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 4: respect when President g and President Trump like finally do 354 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 4: speak sort of leader to leader, and that is sort 355 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,239 Speaker 4: of their way of doing things. But meanwhile, what the 356 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 4: US government is trying to do is really sort of 357 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 4: create new alliances and make sure that our trading partners 358 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 4: are key. Trading partners like Japan are also sort of 359 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 4: trying to decouple from China a little bit as well. 360 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 2: So how does that impact the timeline? Because China also Hijinping, 361 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 2: has been fanning out across parts of Asia to ink 362 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 2: trade deals with countries like Vietnam, for example, to counter 363 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 2: US tariffs. Does that kind of escalate the speed with 364 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 2: which the administration wants to make sure to move to 365 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,719 Speaker 2: get some of these deals actually inked. 366 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 5: Well. 367 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 4: I think the administration is trying to move quickly to 368 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 4: cut these deals on a number of fronts because they 369 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 4: just put things on a ninety day pause and so 370 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 4: they have sort of their own self imposed deadline. We 371 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 4: have seen President Trump, I've covered him for many years. 372 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 4: We have seen him change those deadlines and move things forward. 373 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 4: But I think it's going to be like a race 374 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 4: between China and the US about sort of who can 375 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 4: cut deals with different countries and what that level of 376 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 4: diplomacy looks like. 377 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 2: And no deal is going to be cut without President 378 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 2: Trump's direct sign off. Right, He's in these talks in 379 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: addition to Lutnik investment. This is not letting kind of 380 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 2: members of the cabinet do things. He is intimately involved 381 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 2: in this process. 382 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, I mean he is the one really calling 383 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 4: the shots on the tariffs. I think that there is 384 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 4: you know, there has been some disagreement among the top 385 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 4: economic advisers about what the tariff should look like, how 386 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 4: sort of extreme they should be, how nuanced they should be, 387 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 4: But he is always in the driver's seat on making 388 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 4: those decisions. 389 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,199 Speaker 2: I'd like to ask you about something else pertaining to 390 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 2: the administration that has been capturing a lot of news coverage, certainly, 391 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 2: and that is the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia. After 392 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 2: we earlier this week saw the president of El Salvador 393 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: visiting the White House. This is of course a man 394 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: who was wrongly deported to El Salvador is currently imprisoned there. 395 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 2: The administration says it's up to Bukla if he wants 396 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: to return him, but Ukle says no, even though the 397 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 2: Supreme Court said this must be facilitated. But there is 398 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 2: no sign that the administration is shifting its even tone 399 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 2: on this of anything. Nancy, They're quadrupling down, it seems. 400 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 7: Yeah. 401 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 4: What I have been so struck by just throughout Trump's 402 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 4: second term so far, and you know, we're not even 403 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 4: at the one hundred day mark, is that they are 404 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 4: not super concerned about following the norms or necessarily the 405 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 4: checks and balances that the court system imposes. And I 406 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 4: think this is just another instance of them thinking, well, 407 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 4: you know, world defy the Supreme Court if we want, like, 408 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 4: what is in it for us? What is going to 409 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 4: be the consequence. Republicans on Capitol Hill, you know, have 410 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 4: really made very little public noise about what Trump has done. 411 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 4: And I think it's another example of the administration sort 412 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 4: of testing the boundaries of law and what is going 413 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 4: to be legally permissible. 414 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 2: All right, Bloomberg's Nancy Cook, senior national political reporter for 415 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 2: US here in Washington, Thank you so much, And we 416 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 2: want to dig further into the Abrego Garcia case and 417 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 2: issues of immigration with this administration. Further now with an 418 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 2: immigration attorney, David Leopold is joining me. He's a group 419 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 2: leader in immigration at UBI Greensfelder and also former president 420 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 2: of the American Immigration Lawyers Association, who's going to be 421 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 2: joining me in a minute, as we consider Abrego Garcia's case, 422 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 2: which of course has captured enough attention that a Senator 423 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 2: from Maryland, the Democrat Chris van Holland, has actually made 424 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 2: tracks to Venezuela or El Salvador rather himself today to 425 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 2: try to see him in prison as he continues to 426 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 2: plead his case. We heard from the Senator as he 427 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 2: was ready to board the plane at Dulles earlier. 428 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 8: My overall purpose here is to send the signal that 429 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 8: we are not going to stop fighting for his return 430 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 8: until he is actually released. I may be the first 431 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 8: senator or first member of Congress to go down to 432 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 8: El Salvador, but people are going to keep on coming 433 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 8: until he comes home. This is about the rule of law, 434 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 8: This is about due process. This is about not letting 435 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 8: people be whisked off the street, which the Trump administration 436 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 8: admits was done in error. And I just want people 437 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 8: to think about what that means. 438 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 2: So let's get David Leopold's take on the rule of 439 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 2: law here he is joining me. Now, David really appreciate 440 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 2: the time. Obviously, the Supreme Court had ruled that the 441 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 2: administration needed to facilitate the return of Abrego Garcia. But 442 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 2: did they leave just too much room for interpretation? Is 443 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: there a great area here that you see the administration 444 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 2: taking advantage of or they're just literally flatting the courts. 445 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 9: They're clearly flatting the court. Look if it'd gone the 446 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 9: other way, right, if you had a Supreme Court telling 447 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 9: the Trump administration to facilitate the deportation of somebody, do 448 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 9: you think there'd be any misunderstanding to that usage of 449 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 9: the term. They're clearly an open defiance of not only 450 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 9: the district court, but at the Supreme Court of the 451 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 9: United States. And as Senator Van Halen just said, this 452 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 9: is about the rule of law, and the rule of 453 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 9: law affects us all. Whereas you know we can this 454 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 9: is a focus obviously on an immigration issue and a 455 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 9: removal and improper and legal removal to a hellhole prison 456 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 9: in Al Salvador. This effects all of us, is this 457 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 9: effects everyone. The through line is to US citizens and Americans. 458 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 2: But specifically Abrego Garcia is not a US citizen, which 459 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: the administration has been very quick to point out whenever 460 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 2: this is raised, that he actually came illegally from Al Salvador, 461 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 2: and it is to El Salvador where he was returned, 462 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,239 Speaker 2: even though a court had ruled he should not be 463 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 2: deported to El Salvador specifically because of threats he faced there. 464 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 2: Does that indicate, though, David, that even if he were 465 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 2: to be brought back to the US from the prison 466 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 2: where he currently is, that he could very easily just 467 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 2: deported and sent literally anywhere else beyond El Salvador. 468 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 9: Well, let's remember why he was in the United States. 469 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 9: That's because the Trump administration in twenty nineteen found that 470 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 9: he was facing a threat to his life or his 471 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 9: liberty if he was sent to El Salvador. This was 472 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 9: in twenty nineteen, and this was an immigration court. What 473 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 9: is an immigration court. It's an agency of the Department 474 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 9: of Justice. It's not an Article three court. It's an 475 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 9: agency of the Department of Justice. So the Trump administration itself, 476 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 9: after extensive vetting of criminal background, after extensive vetting of 477 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 9: public safety risks, etc. Found that mister Abrego Garcia would 478 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 9: be would suffer a loss to his liberty or his 479 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 9: life if he was sent back to El Salvador. So 480 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 9: for them to now come out and use this increasingly 481 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 9: hostile and hateful rhetoric going from we made a mistake 482 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 9: to now he's a terrorist is absolutely absurd, absolutely absurd. 483 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 9: So if he's brought back to the United States, he 484 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 9: would be restored to the status that he was in 485 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 9: and that says a lawfully present non citizen in the 486 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 9: United States under we call withholding of removal because because 487 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 9: he faces a loss of liberty or life in El Salvador. 488 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 9: That's why this part of it, you know, the whole 489 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 9: thing is horrible, but that makes it particularly horrible. 490 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: Well, and that is just the case of this one 491 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 2: man who was on planes that were full of hundreds 492 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 2: of people who were deported and sent to this prison. 493 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 2: And of course, the very nature of whether or not 494 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 2: those planes ultimately should have landed in Al Salvador was 495 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 2: a question in the case being overseen by Judge Boseburg, 496 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 2: who today said he sees reason to hold administration officials 497 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 2: in content for violating his verbal order to turn the 498 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 2: planes around. I feel free to weigh in on whether 499 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 2: that contempt kind of proceeding will change anything here. But 500 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 2: what about due process for those individuals who are on 501 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 2: board those aircraft? 502 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 9: What about due process? I mean they the fairness of this, 503 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 9: there is no fairness. To process really means fairness. It 504 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 9: means an opportunity to present yourself to a court. It 505 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 9: means an opportunity to tell the government, no, you know what, 506 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 9: I'm not I'm not supposed to be part of this. 507 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 9: And here's why. And nobody who was sent to people 508 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 9: that were sent to L. Salvador to the Seacat prison, 509 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 9: a notoriously brutal prison run by the two bit dictator 510 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 9: O'Kelly from L. Salvador. Those folks, you know, they didn't 511 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 9: get any chance to defend themselves. Whether we see that 512 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 9: mistakes were made, whether it was the barber or whether 513 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 9: it was the women who were sent down there, we 514 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 9: see that mistakes were made, and we see that mistakes 515 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 9: can be corrected. What's going on here is that the government, 516 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 9: the Trump administration, is doubling down and you know, does 517 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 9: not want to follow the courts, an open defiance of 518 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 9: the United States Supreme Court, playing with words like effectuate 519 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 9: facil We all know what that means, it means get 520 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 9: him home for God's sake. That's what the district court said, 521 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 9: and that's what the Supreme Court affirmed. You know, and 522 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 9: you think of this horrible rhetoric that's coming out of 523 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 9: the Oval Office about him being a terrorist, and remind 524 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 9: people that, you know, you can lie in the Oval Office, 525 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 9: but you can't lie in the court room. And so 526 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 9: you don't hear that same rhetoric from the DOJ. The 527 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 9: Department of Justice attorneys who are arguing these cases. They're 528 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 9: hemming in halling, for sure, but you know, they all 529 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 9: have ethical duties to present good faith arguments to the court, 530 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 9: and you're not hearing that hateful regularly, those name calling 531 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 9: and that sort of thing from the attorneys. 532 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 2: David, we just have thirty seconds left. But if any 533 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 2: of those attorneys or others were to be held in 534 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 2: contempt of court, is there anything President Trump can do 535 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 2: to interfere. 536 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 9: In that, Well, you know, there's certainly, you know, I 537 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 9: would hope not I would hope that the president would 538 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,360 Speaker 9: respect the rule of law. I mean, clearly we've seen 539 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 9: indications that that is not to be affected. With the 540 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 9: partner the January sixth insurrection. 541 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 2: Good point David Leopold, immigration attorney here on Balance of Power. 542 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 2: Thank you for joining Bloomberg. 543 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 8: Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make 544 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 8: sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, 545 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 8: or wherever you get your podcasts, and you can find 546 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 8: us live every weekday from Washington, DC at Noontimeeastern at 547 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 8: Bloomberg dot com.