WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Jack the Ripper 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:20.960 Well hi, and welcome back to the podcast. If you've 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:25.040 been here before, if this is your first time, welcome, Yeah, 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:30.240 I'm Steve as always, I'm joined by Devin Joe and 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:37.199 this is thinking Sideways and ladies and gentlemen. Happy Halloween October. 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:40.559 It is, it is, and this is this is the 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:44.560 final show of our Halloween sweet I know, a couple 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:46.879 of weeks back, I gave a little bit of a 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:49.600 teaser and didn't tell anybody what we were doing, But 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.879 that's because we're doing it now. Yeah, and what we're 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.080 gonna look into is something that a lot and I 0:00:56.120 --> 0:01:00.600 mean a lot of people have requested that we cover it. 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:04.640 Jack the Ripper, I gotta tell you too. There was 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.240 a lot of personal sacrifice for me because in researching this, 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:11.720 I was constantly having to change my underwear because it's scary. 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:15.160 It's a scary story. It is. Yeah, although luckily I'm 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:17.200 not a prostitute, so it seems like you're kind of 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:19.440 like if you're not a prostitute, you're not probably get 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:22.760 also like not in like London. Also it's been like 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:26.880 more than a years. Yeah, probably dead, might or might 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:30.759 not be dead. You never know. But it seemed seemed 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:34.680 like an appropriate story to to do for Halloween. I 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:39.280 imagine that most everybody is probably familiar with the story 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:42.280 of Jack the Ripper, but for those who don't know 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:44.800 it as well as others, were going to go ahead, 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.880 We're going to start at the beginning, and then we're 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:49.960 gonna go ahead and walk our way through the case. 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.920 And there's some things that I wasn't aware of until 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:54.600 I've done the research, and so I think there's a 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:57.280 lot of colonels of really interesting things that we're going 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.360 to bring up. You know, I gotta be honest, I 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.800 haven't been super familiar with the Jack the Ripper story. 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:05.720 I mean, you know, I kind of knew it existed, 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:11.040 but like I, despite maybe some indications, don't necessarily love 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:16.000 like horror movies or stuff like that. So I've never 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:18.160 liked seen any of the movies that we may reference. 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.480 I didn't really ever investigate the whole Jack the Ripper thing. 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:25.320 So this has been like a really really interesting thing 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.240 to be researching because I literally had like no frame 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.120 of reference for this. So I would fall into the 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:33.720 category of people who benefit greatly from a whole lot 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:38.040 of explanation. Well, and the nice thing is we we 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.919 realized early on that this was such a big story 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:46.520 that we probably couldn't and shouldn't tackle it on our own. 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:49.440 So what we did is we got a little help 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:53.280 and we reached out and we were lucky enough to 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:56.760 spend some time talking with a gentleman by the name 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:01.000 of Richard Jones, and we we should probab Just let's here, 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:04.519 let's have Richard introduced himself. Yeah, I'm Richard Jones from 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:07.880 the Jacketer patern in London, which is rippert dot com. 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:12.000 I'm a jacket guide and I've also written two books 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.399 on Jack the Ripper and made three documentaries on Jack 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:20.440 the Ripper. All right, well let's start with London itself. 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:26.160 The time frame we're working in is literally just that 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:29.560 year pretty much pretty much just pretty short time span 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:32.200 of like, for example, the Acts of New Orleans that 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.400 was over eighteen months. Yeah, this is a very very 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.640 compressed time frame. And to talk about I know, this 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:40.160 is one of the things that you you were going 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:42.080 to take on, Joe, was to kind of tell us 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:45.640 a little bit about London at the time. Yeah, exactly. 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:47.760 And of course, you know, you can get a lot 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.680 of you can get a lot of background an atmosphere, 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:53.880 you know, Sherlott Colins. The series started I think the 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:57.760 year before The Ripper started, and you can get a 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.680 lot of the atmosphere of London from eating those those 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:02.640 books and those stories and which were which are great, 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:03.880 by the way, I love those things when I was 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.720 a kid. Um. But and let me tell you about 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.240 the specific neighborhood. These were called the White Chapel murders. 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:13.200 And actually the White Chapel murders were eleven murders, of 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.640 which only about five are actually directly attributed to the Ripper. 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:21.640 So the neighborhood of White Chapel, let me talk about 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.760 it a little bit, was a neighborhood in the London 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.320 in London's East End, and the East End by the 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:31.359 late sixteenth early seventeenth century had attracted a lot of 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:34.000 industrial development, a lot of stuff that was kind of 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:38.039 smell a like foundries, slaughter houses, tanneries, breweries, and lots 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:39.920 of people were there because back in those days, of course, 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:42.440 we didn't have cars and freeways in suburbs, so you 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:44.920 had to live near where you worked, so there were 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.480 lots of people there. And England at this time, beginning 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.000 about the seventeenth century started a period of urbanization where 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.719 people were leaving the countryside and walking to the cities. 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:56.920 And you see similar phenomenon today if you go to 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:00.560 places like South Paulo, Brazil, same thing, people who have 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:03.720 just flocked to the city and they're living in hideous slums. 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:06.600 So that same thing happened back in England at that time. 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.600 This and this lasted until the mid nineteenth century. Uh. 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:12.440 And since things like foundries, breweries and tanneries and slaughter 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:15.360 houses tend to smell really bad, that kept rents down. 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.159 So if you're poor and from refreshing and from the countryside, 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.120 you're gonna gravitate towards the east end. And of course 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:23.719 that increased the poverty and over crowding that already existed 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:28.080 there even more. Uh in the Victorian Area era from 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.680 about eighteen forty onwards. It was made even worse by immigration, 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:37.120 mostly from Ireland and Eastern Europe. And so these slums 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:40.320 are getting extremely crowded. Impact And by the way, I 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:43.520 read a book about conditions in Britain at this time. 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.600 It's called Capitalism in the Story is by Friedrich Hayak. 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.320 Very good book and part of the reason for that 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.000 is that the Napoleonic Wars and stuff. There have been 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:54.880 massive shortages of building materials and stuff like that because 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.839 of the war, and so substandard housing was kind of 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:00.840 the norm, and window was crowded. Brewing him were very 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.039 much the norm. Anyway. Prostitution was endemic in this area. 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:08.240 In Metropolitan Police estimated that there were sixty two brothels 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:13.360 and roughly twelve hundred prostitutes in White Chapel alone, which 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:15.479 is a very small area. Yeah, it's not that big 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.279 of a neighborhood. Yeah, and that's only part of the 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:19.760 East End. Also, Jack London, you guys have heard of 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.279 Jack London, called the Wild and all that stuff. Yeah, 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:24.560 he decided to go undercover in nineteen o two. And 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:26.960 of course this is fourteen years after the murders, but 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.440 still I don't think things have changed probably all that 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:31.719 much in that time. So he went undercover in the 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.000 East End and put out old, ragged clothes and lived 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:38.520 among the poor for three or four months apparently, And 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:41.240 he actually slept in the streets and stuff like that. 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:42.720 I mean, he had he had an out. I mean 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:44.800 he had money, so he could actually leave and go 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:46.880 get a nice hotel room and take a shower or 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:50.280 something like that. But yeah, but he's spent time in 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:51.760 there and he and he and he took up and 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:53.240 talked to a lot with a lot of people. And 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:54.920 I've been reading his book about it. He wrote a 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:57.279 book about it called The People of the Abyss, which 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:00.360 I am not actually through with yet. Unfortunate. I think 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:06.159 it's interesting Joe did all his research by reading books. Yea, yeah, yeah, 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:08.520 The People of the Abyss. But anyway, I recommend it, 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:10.080 Like I said, I haven't finished it yet, but it's 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.920 it's it's good reading so far. But here's how he 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.480 describes his first foray in there. It's and it's funny. 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:18.920 We read the book. He got to London and he's 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:20.720 in the better part of London. He's saying, Oh, I 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:22.320 want to go to the East End. Everybody says, like, 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.040 why the hell would you want to go there? He 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:28.360 really seriously, he gets so he gets this cabby, this 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.880 guy with a handsome, you know, horse drawn cab or thing, 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:33.560 and he says, I want to go to the East 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.200 End and this guy saying, where do you want to 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:41.000 go there? And I just want to go there, says why, 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:43.640 and finally talks this guy says, basically, I want to go. 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:44.680 I want to go to the East End, and I 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:46.280 want to go find a second hand store where I 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.440 can buy some radial clothes. And so they travel along 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:51.680 until they find one of those. And here's this description 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:54.880 of his first foray into the East End. Nowhere in 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.160 the streets of London may want to escape the site 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.240 of abject poverty. While five minutes walked from almost any 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:02.920 point will bring one to a slum. But the region 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:06.560 my handsome was now penetrating was one unending slum. The 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.280 streets were filled with a new and different race of people, 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.720 short of stature, and a wretched or beer sodden appearance. 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:15.200 Here and there larch a drunken man or woman in 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:18.000 the air was obscene with sounds of jangling and squabbling. 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.320 At a market tottery, old men and women were searching 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:23.960 in the garbage thrown in the mud for rotten potatoes, 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:27.559 beans and vegetables. Well. Little children clustered like flies around 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:30.280 a festering mass of fruit, thrusting their arms to the 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:34.480 shoulders into the liquid corruption and drawing forth morsels but 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:38.720 partially decayed, which they devoured on the spot. I know, 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.480 I know, that's life according to Jack London in the 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:45.000 East End. So in other words, Whitechapel was an armpit 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:47.319 and I looked at it just today. I went out 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:49.280 on Google street View and I cruised around. You ever 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:54.520 cruise around the streets. I've actually been there, and it's 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:57.000 it's not it's not as bad as it's not a 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:00.880 bad place. It's very busy and it's very tight quarters 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.760 compared to what we're used to here in the States. Yeah, 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:11.480 but it's not. It's not a slummy joint, but it buildings. 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:13.720 But no, it's not Hell on Earth by any means. 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:15.560 It's like it's come up a lot in the world 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.439 since then. And Richard has some really good points about 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.960 the area at the time as well, And since he 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.120 actually lives in a lot and he probably has a 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.439 lot more knowledge of it than you. Yeah, so let's 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.760 let's go ahead and have here his description White Chapel. 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:35.640 White Chapel got a bad rap at the time. I mean, 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.240 there were parts of White Chapel that were horrible slums, 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:40.040 but there were parts of White Chapel that were as 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.160 good as any other parts of London. And that London 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:46.760 had worst slums than Whitechapel, but it was White Chapel 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.000 largely because of the Ripper murders. White Chapel got the 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:52.839 press coverage, and so today when we tend to think 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.720 of slum in London, we tend to focus on that area. 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:58.600 But there were parts of Merrily Bone, parts of notting Hill, 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:01.000 even parts of the City of London not too long 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:04.800 before the Ripper murder which were just as bad and 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.440 in some cases even worse. But as I say, because 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:11.840 of the press coverage, the history's focus tends to be 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.640 now on Whitechapel and the East end of London as 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.240 a whole got the You've got the agricultural revolution and 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:19.720 throw people off the lands, I mean this this standard, 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:22.400 but then you've got unemployment in it in the farmlands 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.360 of Essex and everywhere. You'd had the Irish potato famine, 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:28.640 so you've got the people coming over the potato famine. 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:32.400 Then it'll say programs, the Jewish eystated, and really the 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:34.320 the whole I mean London was well, it was the 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:37.760 wealthiest capital city in the world, as the biggest port 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.160 in the world as well, so it was a massive place. 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:43.199 But right on the doorstep of the City of London 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:46.320 the wealthiest square mile on Earth. You had these people 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:51.640 living in abject poverty conditions crammed into common lodging houses 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:56.920 and it didn't go unnoticed by a lot of people. Well, 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.679 so you probably want to talk about the murders. Huh, Well, yeah, 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:01.800 I wish probably get into the murder problems. No, I 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:03.920 feel like the murders aren't even like the bulk of 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.480 this story right now. I think we need to talk 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:11.960 about the victims. They're definitely important. And when you read 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.320 about this story, you're gonna hear about the canonical five 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:18.800 and those are the five main victims, and Joe kind 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:20.760 of touched on that a little bit in the beginning. 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.640 There are there's talk that there were other victims that 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:29.240 could have been ripper victims that aren't directly attributed to him, 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.960 and we're actually going to start out with one of 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:35.280 those victims first. Yeah, that's the thing about it. It's 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:37.280 it's really hard to say because it's like, you know, 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:39.400 you're living in a slum and people tend to stab 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:43.000 each other death and the slums a lot, so yeah, yeah, 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.959 they do. So the first person that we're gonna talk about, 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:48.920 her name is Martha tabram I. Believe it's how you 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:56.600 pronounced her last name, Taban. She was thirty nine years old, 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.320 and like a lot of the women that we're going 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:03.840 to talk about, she'd fallen on hard times. Uh. In 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:08.160 eighteen seventy five, her husband leaves her for her quote 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:12.400 unquote love of the drink. For thirteen years, she's with 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:16.800 another man. Uh he evidently used to sell trinkets, and 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:22.920 then eventually he uh he leaves her, and she doesn't 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.720 know what to do, so she kind of turns to 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:29.320 prostitution is a way to get by. And I guess 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.760 I'll just mention, you know, it's gonna start to sound 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.400 a little repetitive when do we start talking about the 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.000 history of these The story pretty much goes for all 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.600 of these women, they had a husband who left them 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.319 or died. They were with a man for a little while, 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.280 that person left them, they had to turn to prostitution. 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:48.440 But also they were drunks, but they had to turn 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:52.000 to prostitution, and because of that things maybe went a 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:55.000 little downhill. These are all these are all I think, 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:57.920 really sad stories, you know, I mean, in their searching. 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.560 A couple of these victims, it's like their lives really 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.640 could have turned out a lot better. Unfortunately, alcohol was not. 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.400 I'm not crustating against alcohology, you know, I love me 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:11.520 my beer, but but yeah, and it didn't serve them well. 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:15.640 I think another point to make is, I can't remember 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:19.080 the exact phrase that was used, but not all of 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:23.160 them were what you would say called a full time prostitute. 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:28.480 They would turn to it in times of desperation. It 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.040 wasn't as if they were out working the streets all 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:33.600 the time. A lot of them did other little things 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.080 to try to make money. But when money was short 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.360 and you needed a couple extra shilling, there was there 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:45.040 was an answer. Um. And Martha here was kind of 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:47.680 that way. She was at a full time prostitute. But 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:52.040 on the sixth of August she was seen out and 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.920 about with another prostitute whose nickname was Pearley Paul. They 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:59.480 all had, They all had great nicknames. They really did. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.920 Uh And these ladies evidently they were partying with a 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:06.479 couple of soldiers or maybe they were sailors, It's unclear. 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:11.719 And around midnight they parted ways, and Peary went with 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.559 one man one way, and Martha went with the other 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.440 in the other direction. Martha took the gentleman that she 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.160 was with, if she was with a gentleman, because again 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.240 we're not positive, into an alley of a location known 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:29.000 as George Yard. And I think that this is probably 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:31.680 a good place to stop real fast and explain if 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:35.320 anybody who hasn't been to London. It's not a grid, 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.680 it's not square blocks. It is full of tiny little 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:43.080 alleyways and they cut in between and they twist and 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.200 they turned, so there's lots of dead ends and dark 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.480 places for business to happen, if you know what I 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.520 mean by wink wink business. So that's what she was doing. 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:55.800 She was going into one of these dark alleys. I 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:57.800 was gonna say, by the way, and I've never driven 0:14:57.800 --> 0:14:59.880 in London. I've always been on foot there and had 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:01.960 been there that much. But it's like I would hate 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.560 to drive in that town. Holy crap. Oh, it's it's insane, 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:14.280 absolutely insane. But back then, Martha's body was officially found 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:18.360 at four five on the seventh of August, five in 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:22.000 the morning, at the entry of one of the buildings 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.720 in George Yard. Evidently there was several buildings. Sounds like 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.520 it was kind of a courtyard. But I'm not positive. 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:32.800 Several people in the night had come home and gone 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:36.440 through the entry and upstairs and that had come back down. 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:40.840 None of them saw her body. It wasn't until a 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:44.640 man by the name of John Reeves was leaving in 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.920 the morning and he came down the stairs and he 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.440 realized that there was a body laying in the entry 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:54.040 and it was in a puddle of blood. And uh, 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:56.080 this was four forty five in the morning. There were 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.200 reports of people coming in at two o'clock in the morning. 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.880 Somebody left I think like to thirty or three. They 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.080 didn't see her. So the window for where how she 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:09.480 could have when she could have got there is pretty narrow. 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:13.080 But again, this is accounts that are over a hundred 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.840 and thirty years old. Yeah, from people who were likely 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.560 drunk at the time, right, and who are used to 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:20.760 the first thing in the morning, you're not really paying 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:23.720 attention it it's dark. You gotta remember, there's no lighting. Yeah, 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.520 and you're also used to people like maybe being passed 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:28.920 out in your stup or whatever that you know, you 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.320 would probably say, I mean, I didn't see it. I 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.520 didn't recognize it as a corpse, but yeah, there was 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:36.360 like a body I had to step over versus like, no, 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.680 there was nothing there. It's probably worth remembering too that 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:43.680 this is London eight and they didn't have street lights 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:47.600 like we have today. It was freaking dark out, very dark, 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:49.360 very dark. I mean I was there at night and 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:51.280 even with modern lighting you could do one of those 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:56.440 alleys and it's freaking dark. The medical examiner showed up 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.560 at five thirty in the morning and had placed the 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.960 time of death at somewhere between two thirty to two 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.040 forty five in the morning. Now this isn't modern forensics. 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:08.359 It wasn't as if they were, you know, using a 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:12.280 thermometer to check the body temperature or doing it had 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:16.040 an accurate judge of lividity things like that. You know, 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:18.320 this is kind of guesswork. Yeah, it was. It was 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:20.880 c s I. London was kind of crude at that time. 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:25.240 It was very crude. Well, the way she was killed 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:32.520 was extremely savage. She was stabbed thirty nine times. Let's see, 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.720 there was five wounds in her left long, two in 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.840 her right, one wound in her heart, five wounds in 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.600 her liver, two in her spleen, and six in her stomach. 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.119 They weren't able to identify which was like the first. No, 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:47.720 they couldn't tell which was first. But the weird thing 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.600 is that all of these wounds appeared to have come 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:55.919 from a pen knife except for one, and that was 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:59.720 the one that pierced her stern um. And they said 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:05.199 it was probably a bayonet or a large dagger. And 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:08.600 the bayonet made him think that it played into Remember 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:12.280 we said that she was supposedly with some soldiers. Soldier 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:14.760 would have a bayonnet. I believe that this one was 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:19.480 I think attributed to gang violence. Correct. They think it 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:21.800 might have been, but it's it just was I never 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.560 got a clear read. It sounds like, I mean, you know, 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:26.600 it sounds like to me, somebody stabbed her a bunch 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:28.560 of times and she didn't go quite go down because 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.760 she was stabbed with a little bitty knife. And then 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.840 finally somebody else steps in and says, okay, could they 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:37.040 go our time and hit you with the big bayonet. 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.280 So that's interesting because then I felt it would have 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:42.960 gone the other way that like some soldiers were drunk 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:46.720 accidentally like stand from the band for whatever reason. And 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:51.120 then was like, oh crap, uh, this seems like something 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.679 that could happen in the the you know, in white chapels, Like, 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:57.440 here's a pen knife, I'll just STAB's not going to 0:18:57.520 --> 0:18:59.840 cover it up, you know sort of That's where my 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:04.600 mind goes with, that's interesting that we're opposite. So yeah, 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:06.600 I know, I'm thinking that I'm thinking to set somebody 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:08.240 decided that this is not working out, let's go for 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:11.240 the big downs here. But how old was she? She 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:18.080 was thirty ninety nine stabs. No, that is not necessarily 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:21.480 Insignificand well, no, that's true, But they also don't This 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.440 is one of the reasons that she's considered an outlier 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:25.800 and they don't think that she was one of the 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:32.000 ripper victims. Is the m O is not the same evolved. 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:36.240 One of the things that happened in every ripper killing 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:39.919 was the throat was cut and hers was not, and 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:43.400 they and they stabbed her, didn't They didn't rip her 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:45.720 open the way corre she was just stabbed to do. 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:48.720 She wasn't open. But we're going to get into that. 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.040 I get one just like it was one final Like 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:58.000 I'm right that like it wasn't an abandoned area. There 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:00.600 are a bunch of people sleeping around. If you were 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.200 going to like stab a lady thirty nine times whatever 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:05.439 with a pen knife, she's going to scream and make noise. 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:07.560 Versus if you're going to run her through the bandet 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:09.800 and she dies and then try and cover it up, 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:14.960 that's going to be pretty like quiet compared pertly. I'm 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:18.760 not gonna I want to say, though, that I swear 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:21.720 somewhere in the reading I heard someone reported they thought 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:25.000 they heard a scream. There's so many of that though, Like, 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:29.680 like I witness statements are really bad, especially when it's 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:31.600 two in the morning. Well it's not only two in 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:33.879 the morning, but it's in like a really horrible neighborhood. 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:36.520 Like there's drunks and like a bunch of crazy people 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.040 wandering around all the time. You think you kind of 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:41.199 tune it out. I mean, you know, one of the 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:43.040 victims that I'm going to talk about in a little 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:45.840 bit here, people were like, well, I don't know, like 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.400 I heard some screams in the distance kind of but 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:53.320 like that's pretty normal. I didn't think anything of it. 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:56.760 I think that's just kind of speaks of the time. Well, 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:01.720 let's let's move on to the first of the canonical five, okay, 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:03.879 and that would be Mary Ann Nichols. The first of 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:06.919 the canonical five. Yeah, Mary and Nichols a k A. 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:11.360 Polly Nichols was killed five days past her forty three birthday, 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:14.959 and that was August thirty one, I believe, eighty eight. Married. 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:17.000 A little bit of background here, had been married, she'd 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:20.760 had five children, but unfortunately fallen under the influence of 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:25.360 demon rum and uh because of her alcoholism. Although their 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:28.200 other there there's conflicting accounts as to why the marriage 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:33.800 broke up. There's always extenuating circumstances, the drink and yeah, yeah, yeah, so, 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.560 and there were all kinds of different theories. But anyway, 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:39.480 but it broke up about eighteen eighty one something like that, 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:43.480 probably because of our alcoholism. But again this is in dispute. 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:46.840 So she spent most of her remaining years between then 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:49.359 in eighteen eighty eight when she died in workhouses and 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:52.399 boarding houses and workhouses you probably want to know what 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:58.160 those are? Just gonna yeah that workhouses and yeah, exactly 0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:00.720 what boarding houses. Obviously there are places just go rent 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:03.439 a room or rent a bed for the night or 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:06.879 by the week or whatever. And then workhouses are places 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:10.200 where if you're if you're poor and sort of derelict, 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:12.879 then you're sort of grabbed and stuffed into the workhouse 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:16.320 and kind of forced to work, but at the same 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:18.280 time you have a place to live. It's kind of 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:20.600 like a poor farm here in boarding. Yeah, you like 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:23.159 work for board you know. And and one of the 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:27.680 things that's really crazy is gosh, in the boarding houses, 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:30.880 I can't remember what they call it, but it wasn't 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:32.920 always rooms that people would rent. I mean, this is 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:38.480 just a bed. Well, they actually had what equated to 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:42.399 rows of coffins that you would lay in and that 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:45.320 was your itty bitty place to sleep. And then if 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:48.800 you didn't have enough money for that for I don't 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:52.439 remember what it was. A couple of pennies is the 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:55.919 phrase I'm going to use. But whatever the currency was 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:57.760 at the time, the smallest amount it was a couple 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:02.480 They had poe in these places, and they would tie 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:06.840 a rope two ropes, wanted about shoulder level and one 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:11.520 about butt height, and for a couple of pennies you 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:15.280 could lean against that with a buch of other people 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:20.280 and sleep on your feet. That this is how crazy 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:23.320 the boarding houses were. Just to get a place so 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:26.280 that you were out of the weather rough times. Um, 0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:32.760 I'm really glad I'm not living there right now. Uh so, 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:37.879 she uh She scratched a living mostly from just handouts, charity, prostitution, 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:41.680 and she was of course an alcoholic and the money 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:44.080 she made she mostly spent on alcohol. At the time 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:45.760 of her desk, she was living at a boarding house 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:49.000 in Spittlefields, which is a neighborhood just north of Whitechapel 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:53.120 So onto the murder at one thirty am on August 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:56.160 thirty one, she was booted out of her boarding house 0:23:56.200 --> 0:23:58.240 because she didn't have money to pay for her bed. 0:23:58.480 --> 0:24:00.159 So apparently this was a pay as you go kind 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:04.040 of basis here, you know that one Yeah, yeah, uh so, 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:06.040 she laughed, saying she was going to earn some money 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:08.359 on the streets to be back. The last sighting of 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:10.879 her was at two thirty am at the corner of 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:14.520 Osborne Street in Whitechapel Road. And I'm sure you're all 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:18.600 familiar with that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Actually, there's a 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:21.200 lot of maps out there that really show this quite well, 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:24.800 so people can definitely look that up. Yeah, it's good 0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:27.159 to help follow along, it is. It's great, you know, 0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:29.080 using Google Maps, I was able to look at that 0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:31.600 and able to chart out her course, So she was 0:24:31.640 --> 0:24:33.800 at one White Chapel Road. White Chapel Road, of course, 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:36.960 was a fairly busy thoroughfare and actually not not as 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:39.280 slummy as the rest of White Chapel. Apparently at that 0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:42.159 time it was reasonably good, reasonably good repair. As soon 0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:44.920 as he got off of it, things sort of went downhill, 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:48.960 but it was okay. Uh. So she probably was plying 0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:53.399 her trade on White Chapel Road and between where she 0:24:53.520 --> 0:24:56.320 was last seen and where she probably encountered the ripper, 0:24:56.400 --> 0:25:00.919 I'm instivating fifty ft. It's the distancing she covered between 0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:03.399 and the time she was murdered. We'll find out, we'll 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:06.280 find later was about three am or a little bit after. 0:25:06.440 --> 0:25:10.240 So's covering sevent d fifty feet in half an Hour's 0:25:10.400 --> 0:25:14.960 not unreasonable, now, yeah, yeah, So she was moving northeast 0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:17.560 on the on the street apparently, and I'm believing she 0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:20.720 met the ripper someplace further away, well, you know, quite 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:25.360 a bit further away from Osborne Road. Anyway, at three 0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:28.040 forty am her body was found. There's a short little 0:25:28.080 --> 0:25:31.360 side street north of White Chapel Road called bucks Row. 0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:33.960 Now it's called Derwood Street. So if you're going to 0:25:34.000 --> 0:25:37.320 do a Google on that it's Derwoard, not bucks Row. 0:25:37.760 --> 0:25:39.560 But she was found in a short little side street 0:25:39.600 --> 0:25:41.280 was only which is only a couple of blocks long, 0:25:41.560 --> 0:25:44.920 called bucks Row by a cart driver and he's she 0:25:45.080 --> 0:25:46.679 was laying on her back and her skirt had been 0:25:46.800 --> 0:25:50.399 raised over her head. Her throat had been cut twice 0:25:50.480 --> 0:25:52.840 from left to right. Was to me implies a right 0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:55.720 handed ripper. Do you think that makes sense? Yeah, and 0:25:55.800 --> 0:25:58.119 her act of it had been violently slashed. There was 0:25:58.240 --> 0:26:02.680 one massive jagged gash, other smaller gashes I know. Yeah. 0:26:03.320 --> 0:26:05.359 They called a surgeon who examined the body, and he 0:26:05.480 --> 0:26:07.399 arrived at four am and 'st a minute. She'd been 0:26:07.440 --> 0:26:09.640 dead for about half an hour. His name was Dr 0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:13.760 Hanley Llewellen. He later suspected the wounds indicated a left 0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:15.920 handed ripper. And I don't know why he suspected that, 0:26:16.080 --> 0:26:18.400 because for me, I mean, when I'm looking at somebody 0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:20.800 who strode to slash from left to right, I'm thinking 0:26:20.960 --> 0:26:24.960 right hand, Hello, left to right, right to left right. Sorry, 0:26:25.880 --> 0:26:28.480 we're just standing in here. I'm just slashing at their Yeah, 0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:33.040 he would. When you slash somebody, you're probably most likely 0:26:33.119 --> 0:26:34.760 going to do it from behind. You're gonna grab him. 0:26:34.760 --> 0:26:37.119 You're gonna pull their chin up, and you're gonna like 0:26:37.280 --> 0:26:40.120 draw the blade across the throat from behind right, probably 0:26:40.440 --> 0:26:44.480 but also maybe not. Yeah, I mean if you we'll see, 0:26:44.520 --> 0:26:47.399 if you're standing in front, then it would be the 0:26:47.520 --> 0:26:51.640 reverse because you're I would imagine that you wouldn't overhanded 0:26:52.119 --> 0:26:55.399 from right to left, you'd pull from left. You'd want to. 0:26:55.680 --> 0:27:00.560 But Joe, why do you have a knife. Oh my god, 0:27:00.600 --> 0:27:04.000 that's how I die. So you're you're you're gonna show us. 0:27:04.000 --> 0:27:07.000 All right, So let's say let's say I'm in the ripper. Okay, 0:27:07.119 --> 0:27:08.880 first of all, if I if I, if I'm gonna 0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:10.840 slip your through from behind, I'm gonna I'm gonna do 0:27:10.920 --> 0:27:14.080 it like this. You're going to pull from your left 0:27:14.240 --> 0:27:17.400 to your right to be the victims left to right 0:27:17.560 --> 0:27:19.600 across the right. Let's say. But let's say I do 0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:21.560 it from the front. Now, the best way to do 0:27:21.600 --> 0:27:23.240 it from the front is to do it like this 0:27:24.320 --> 0:27:28.000 is to the It like runs down your the side 0:27:28.040 --> 0:27:30.920 of your arm. Yeah, exactly, I'm not. I'm not. Essentially 0:27:30.960 --> 0:27:33.280 I'm pointing the If I'm holding my fist out in 0:27:33.359 --> 0:27:36.320 front of me, the blade is pointing downward, and then 0:27:36.400 --> 0:27:38.440 I just walk up to her and I go, why 0:27:38.480 --> 0:27:41.480 am I like this again? A left to right from 0:27:41.560 --> 0:27:45.359 her point of view? Wound? Um, If I do it, 0:27:45.520 --> 0:27:47.920 that's that's that is the best way to do. I 0:27:48.000 --> 0:27:49.960 guess the next way to do it is to grab 0:27:50.040 --> 0:27:52.639 her hair and do this. Although I could do this, 0:27:53.560 --> 0:27:57.320 which is going from either directionard, but I mean anyway 0:27:57.400 --> 0:27:58.920 that you know, I don't want to believe with the 0:27:58.960 --> 0:28:01.200 port two point too much. I think that to me, 0:28:01.520 --> 0:28:07.080 the left to right wound indicates a right handed ripper. Dr. Llewellen, 0:28:07.560 --> 0:28:09.680 who examined that who was on the cuts, said that 0:28:09.880 --> 0:28:12.639 he's he believed that the wounds indicated that he was 0:28:12.720 --> 0:28:15.000 a left handed person. I guess it would just matter 0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:18.440 like how deep each part. I mean, you know, right 0:28:19.840 --> 0:28:23.080 cut usually gets deeper in the way that it goes 0:28:23.640 --> 0:28:26.000 as it travels, so he would know kind of but 0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:29.000 also maybe not. Yeah, but anyway, it was a sharp 0:28:29.080 --> 0:28:32.359 it was a sharp knive. She probably died pretty quickly. 0:28:32.520 --> 0:28:37.280 Mercifully that, the rumor that the ripper was left handed 0:28:37.359 --> 0:28:41.320 persisted for pretty much forever, even though llewell And himself 0:28:41.400 --> 0:28:45.280 expressed doubts about his own theory. Later on. The inquest 0:28:45.600 --> 0:28:47.800 into the death went on for more than three weeks 0:28:47.880 --> 0:28:50.400 after the murder because they were still bringing into evidence, 0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:52.720 they were still interviewing people from around the neighborhood and 0:28:52.800 --> 0:28:56.160 things like that. At the end, the major finding was 0:28:56.320 --> 0:29:00.160 that Marianne Nichols was murdered at just after three UM, 0:29:00.840 --> 0:29:03.320 so that would put her death about half an hour 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:06.120 after she was last seen. And then the next the 0:29:06.200 --> 0:29:08.040 only major thing after that, and this has nothing to 0:29:08.120 --> 0:29:09.560 do with anything, but I'll bring it up. Bring it 0:29:09.640 --> 0:29:13.000 up anyway, somebody started to rumor that somebody's name, quote 0:29:13.240 --> 0:29:16.600 leather Apron quote unquote was the killer. We're gonna talk 0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:20.160 about leather Apron more. I know, leather Apron. Yeah. Yeah. 0:29:20.520 --> 0:29:23.880 There was a Jewish bookmaker or a Jewish bootmaker in 0:29:23.880 --> 0:29:27.200 the neighborhood named John Piser who has apparently had the 0:29:27.280 --> 0:29:30.000 nickname leather Apron, and so he was arrested of course 0:29:30.360 --> 0:29:34.320 because hey, he's Jewish, he's got a leather Apron. Although 0:29:34.320 --> 0:29:36.680 I gotta say, I do to say his nicknames, go, 0:29:36.880 --> 0:29:41.560 leather Apron is pretty damn creepy. Yeah, it really is. Yeah, 0:29:41.720 --> 0:29:45.040 that's that's like you know, the locals, it's wearing your 0:29:45.120 --> 0:29:47.840 your work clothes. Constantly think if your garbage man, If 0:29:47.880 --> 0:29:51.360 you graberge man wears his coveralls and then just goes home, 0:29:51.600 --> 0:29:53.480 he is wearing him, goes to the grocery store, he's 0:29:53.520 --> 0:29:56.400 just wearing him, goes to the bar, he's just wearing him. 0:29:56.800 --> 0:29:58.720 It would be a little weird. So I can see 0:29:58.720 --> 0:30:02.000 how you would be like, hey, garbage man, what's up? 0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:04.640 You know? That be how that nickname starts. But it's 0:30:04.800 --> 0:30:07.440 the weird leather apron. It's just there's just something kind 0:30:07.480 --> 0:30:10.120 of there's sort of serial killerish about it, you know. 0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:14.000 I I understand why that would arouse suspicions. Anyway, this 0:30:14.080 --> 0:30:17.360 guy was arrested and of course interrogator probably beating who 0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:20.800 the hell knows, But he later was released and actually 0:30:21.440 --> 0:30:23.840 received some settlements from a few papers that have published 0:30:23.880 --> 0:30:27.080 libelous information about him. Well, let's let's move on to 0:30:27.520 --> 0:30:30.760 our next victim, who is Annie Chapman. Annie was some 0:30:30.920 --> 0:30:35.080 kind sometimes called dark Annie. She had a full dark 0:30:35.160 --> 0:30:37.440 head of hair, and that's how she got her nickname. 0:30:38.080 --> 0:30:40.920 But she was forty seven years old at the time 0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:45.480 of her death, and same story. She'd moved to White 0:30:45.560 --> 0:30:49.520 Chapel after her marriage had fallen apart. She had issues 0:30:49.720 --> 0:30:54.160 with drink. Uh. She was all actually getting what would 0:30:54.200 --> 0:30:58.040 equate to alimony from her ex husband, which was a 0:30:58.720 --> 0:31:04.120 amount of ten shillings a week, and also had a boyfriend. 0:31:04.160 --> 0:31:07.040 She was living with a man. Well, when her ex 0:31:07.120 --> 0:31:10.000 found out that she was living with another man, he 0:31:10.280 --> 0:31:14.400 cut her alimony to two shillings a week, and suddenly 0:31:14.560 --> 0:31:19.840 her boyfriend evaporates because there's suddenly not this easy flow 0:31:19.960 --> 0:31:23.120 of money, because you know, ten shillings totally enough to 0:31:23.160 --> 0:31:25.400 live on. At the time, it actually wasn't it was 0:31:25.600 --> 0:31:28.600 it was okay money. I mean it didn't it didn't 0:31:28.600 --> 0:31:31.720 get you everywhere, but at least it was something. Well, 0:31:32.240 --> 0:31:34.800 at that point she didn't have a consistent income, and 0:31:35.280 --> 0:31:39.800 as we said, she she took up casual prostitution along 0:31:39.840 --> 0:31:42.719 when doing some other words. It's just such a great term, 0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:51.360 casual prostitution. Yeah, yeah, there were so many prostitutes. How 0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:54.640 did they find their customers? I mean, I mean, if 0:31:54.680 --> 0:31:56.360 you were a john, it must have been like just 0:31:56.720 --> 0:32:01.200 I mean incredibly juicy times. I imagine that they were. 0:32:01.360 --> 0:32:04.200 You know, there's all kinds of men in the area 0:32:04.320 --> 0:32:07.000 coming off of ships and coming in to do words. 0:32:07.280 --> 0:32:10.880 I imagine that it wasn't hard. Probably also worked pretty 0:32:11.000 --> 0:32:14.400 hard hawking their wares. Probably and I probably should have 0:32:14.480 --> 0:32:16.400 mentioned this in my description in the neighborhood too, is 0:32:16.480 --> 0:32:18.840 that it was not far north of the Thames River, 0:32:19.560 --> 0:32:23.000 not far not far away from the docks. Yeah, well, 0:32:23.440 --> 0:32:27.600 at some point anyway, this is going to be on 0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:33.400 September eighth of uh Annie was not allowed to stay 0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:36.280 at the lodging house that she'd been at because, as 0:32:36.400 --> 0:32:38.160 we just talked about with several she didn't have the 0:32:38.240 --> 0:32:41.760 money so that she couldn't stay, so she left to 0:32:41.840 --> 0:32:45.400 go make the money. That is a that's another common 0:32:45.480 --> 0:32:47.720 theme in these these guys. Are they all go back 0:32:47.760 --> 0:32:49.960 to there? That guys, these women all go back they 0:32:50.000 --> 0:32:51.760 get booted at because they don't have the cash, and 0:32:51.920 --> 0:32:54.520 ye next thing you know, they're dead. Not all of them. 0:32:54.600 --> 0:33:02.800 But at some point between after five fifteen to five 0:33:03.000 --> 0:33:06.840 thirty in the morning, there's a carpenter who lived at 0:33:07.120 --> 0:33:11.480 number twenty seven Hanbury Street, and he went into the 0:33:11.520 --> 0:33:15.480 backyard of his premises and as he goes towards the door, 0:33:16.080 --> 0:33:19.800 he said he heard a woman say no. And he 0:33:20.000 --> 0:33:23.080 wasn't sure where it comes from, but he thought it 0:33:23.280 --> 0:33:25.800 was on the other side of the fence of the yard. 0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:29.640 Then he went back in. He came out a couple 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:33.520 of minutes later, he heard something hit the fence that 0:33:33.720 --> 0:33:37.440 divided number twenty seven, where he lived and number twenty nine, 0:33:37.520 --> 0:33:39.840 which is the next house over. What was his name, 0:33:40.320 --> 0:33:46.440 It was Albert Koch. I hope I'm pronouncing it right. 0:33:46.520 --> 0:33:50.960 Sorry Albert if I'm not, But yeah, he said, it 0:33:51.080 --> 0:33:54.440 seemed as if something touched the fence suddenly. He didn't. 0:33:54.840 --> 0:33:59.000 He didn't, however, go look and see what it was. Instead, 0:33:59.760 --> 0:34:03.360 he went back into the house and he left for work. 0:34:04.400 --> 0:34:06.960 And that's how he said he knew what time he 0:34:07.080 --> 0:34:08.680 heard all of this because as he walked out, he 0:34:08.760 --> 0:34:10.719 looked up at the big clock tower and see what 0:34:10.880 --> 0:34:13.879 time it was. He said it was five thirty two 0:34:13.920 --> 0:34:18.600 when he left. About six o'clock that morning. Another gentleman 0:34:18.680 --> 0:34:22.000 by the name of John Davis, who lived in twenty 0:34:22.120 --> 0:34:27.120 nine Hanbury Street, came downstairs, and when he walked out 0:34:27.160 --> 0:34:31.320 into the narrow passage, which is essentially an alleyway, he 0:34:32.400 --> 0:34:38.600 saw what ends up being any Antie Chapman and a 0:34:38.680 --> 0:34:42.320 couple of workmen come around right at that time, and 0:34:42.640 --> 0:34:45.360 he says, man come here. He is evidently what the 0:34:45.480 --> 0:34:50.640 story goes, and they found the mutilated body of Annie Chapman. 0:34:51.800 --> 0:34:55.200 Her dress was pulled up around her knees, which we 0:34:55.360 --> 0:34:57.520 heard in the last murder. This is starting to become 0:34:57.520 --> 0:35:00.560 a bit of an m o um. A deep cut 0:35:00.680 --> 0:35:05.000 had been slashed across her throat, her intestines had been 0:35:05.080 --> 0:35:09.440 tugged out and laid across her shoulder, which is disturbing, 0:35:10.680 --> 0:35:14.279 and her uterus and her bladder had been removed, and 0:35:14.360 --> 0:35:17.239 the unse was taken with like that was our found, right, 0:35:18.000 --> 0:35:20.960 that is correct? I do not I do not remember. 0:35:21.040 --> 0:35:24.160 She was the one where I think it was the 0:35:24.239 --> 0:35:26.920 first kind of hey, maybe this person has some kind 0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:32.080 of medical training, wasn't she? No, that's actually that comes 0:35:32.120 --> 0:35:37.680 in later on. But these organs were removed and uh, 0:35:38.080 --> 0:35:41.000 you know, as with the others, it's it is extremely grizzly. 0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:45.000 I don't know where which direction they thought her throat 0:35:45.080 --> 0:35:47.839 was cut from. I didn't catch that detail, though, I'm 0:35:47.880 --> 0:35:50.480 sure it's out there. I just didn't catch it. But 0:35:51.120 --> 0:35:54.560 that's how she was killed, which is not a nice 0:35:54.600 --> 0:35:57.360 way to die, I don't think. But at least he 0:35:57.840 --> 0:36:02.000 uh slit first before we started tearing their bodies up 0:36:03.080 --> 0:36:05.560 a mercy. We've we've got to believe that, because otherwise 0:36:05.600 --> 0:36:08.320 you would think that the screams of agony would have 0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:11.160 been so loud people would have been caught on the 0:36:11.200 --> 0:36:15.600 first time, first try, of course. So the next victim 0:36:15.800 --> 0:36:23.000 Caniconical Canada. Canaical victim is Elizabeth Stride, and she uh 0:36:24.239 --> 0:36:26.600 is a little different than the rest of the victims. 0:36:26.680 --> 0:36:30.440 Her story. She was forty four years old and she 0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:35.640 was from Sweden. She was killed on September eighth. She 0:36:35.760 --> 0:36:39.160 was originally married to a ship's carpenter um after a 0:36:39.239 --> 0:36:43.480 life of prostitution, so unlike many of the victims who 0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:47.080 turned to prostitution, she was pretty much prostitute the whole time. 0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:52.239 She was described by her boyfriend kind of at the time. 0:36:52.320 --> 0:36:53.840 I guess he was kind of her boyfriend at the 0:36:53.880 --> 0:36:57.920 time as having a calm demeanor except for when she 0:36:58.000 --> 0:37:01.319 started drinking. Oh yeah, I do remember that about her. 0:37:01.360 --> 0:37:06.080 She she's a little fiery when she got Yeah. Yeah. 0:37:06.520 --> 0:37:11.360 So her husband died of TV and they had no children. 0:37:11.440 --> 0:37:15.959 Her husband, the ship's carpenter I think it would yeah, toberculosis. Sorry, 0:37:16.080 --> 0:37:19.720 And I think it was um like ten years before 0:37:20.040 --> 0:37:24.400 she came to White Chapel, however, a little like snippet 0:37:24.560 --> 0:37:26.920 of the kind of person she was. She told, like 0:37:27.160 --> 0:37:30.279 everyone in White Chapel, that her husband Um and two 0:37:30.360 --> 0:37:33.600 of their nine children had died, died in the thinking 0:37:33.680 --> 0:37:36.040 of the Queen Anne, and that she lost all of 0:37:36.080 --> 0:37:38.200 the teeth on her left side and developed the stutter 0:37:38.280 --> 0:37:40.120 because somebody had kicked her in the faith as they 0:37:40.160 --> 0:37:48.560 swam to safety. Yes. Uh So, after her husband died, 0:37:48.719 --> 0:37:51.040 she moved to White Chapel and turned to hooking again 0:37:51.320 --> 0:37:53.560 and had kind of an on again offgin relationship with 0:37:53.600 --> 0:37:56.680 the Jewish man Um, during which times she learned Yiddish. 0:37:57.280 --> 0:38:00.359 And this may come into play later, it will come 0:38:00.400 --> 0:38:03.520 into play. Uh And in fact, Elizabeth Stride was seen 0:38:03.840 --> 0:38:06.600 just twenty minutes prior to her discovery, the discovery of 0:38:06.680 --> 0:38:10.640 her body. Um, she'd been seen many times throughout the night, 0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:13.400 and almost all of her night was like very well 0:38:13.440 --> 0:38:18.160 accounted for. You know, she was selling her weares, she 0:38:18.320 --> 0:38:21.360 was with different gentleman, she was drinking, she was brawling, 0:38:21.640 --> 0:38:25.719 she was drinking some more. Yeah, she was seen with 0:38:25.840 --> 0:38:28.719 three different gentlemen, and everybody kind of just assumes that 0:38:28.760 --> 0:38:31.640 she was. They were clients of hers. She was last 0:38:31.719 --> 0:38:34.279 seen rejecting the advances of a man just outside of 0:38:34.320 --> 0:38:36.600 a Jewish social club, and there was a concert that 0:38:36.680 --> 0:38:41.640 was happening in the club, but nobody said they heard 0:38:41.680 --> 0:38:45.040 anything happen. There were a lot of people around when 0:38:45.239 --> 0:38:48.920 she died, but nobody heard anything, maybe because there was 0:38:48.960 --> 0:38:52.120 a concert hap probably, but also maybe not, It's hard 0:38:52.200 --> 0:38:57.760 to tell. One witness named Israel Shorts reported seeing Stride 0:38:57.760 --> 0:39:01.600 being attacked and thrown to the ground outside of Duke 0:39:01.680 --> 0:39:07.759 Field's Yard dut Fields Yard dut Field Yard um at 0:39:07.800 --> 0:39:14.080 about am and apparently the according to Israel Schwartz, the 0:39:14.160 --> 0:39:17.279 attacker called out Lipsky to a second man who was 0:39:17.320 --> 0:39:21.080 standing nearby. But it was possible that there was some 0:39:21.239 --> 0:39:26.400 kind of uh anti Semitic taunt happening there because apparently 0:39:26.440 --> 0:39:28.520 there was a prisoner that was really famous at the 0:39:28.600 --> 0:39:30.760 time who was an anti Semitic who was named Israel 0:39:30.800 --> 0:39:35.360 Lipsky the corner at the time. Blackwell thought that Stride 0:39:35.440 --> 0:39:37.880 might have been pulled backwards onto the ground by her 0:39:37.960 --> 0:39:40.839 neckerchief before her throat was cut. When they found her, 0:39:41.520 --> 0:39:46.040 her neckerchief was cut in half along with her throat. Um. 0:39:46.719 --> 0:39:50.880 Another corner later concurred that Stride was likely to have 0:39:50.960 --> 0:39:53.239 been on the ground when she was killed by a 0:39:53.719 --> 0:39:57.560 swift slash from left to right across her neck, and 0:39:57.600 --> 0:39:59.840 then there was bruising on her chest that suggested that 0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:02.719 she was pinned to the ground during her attack. So 0:40:02.920 --> 0:40:05.480 that I don't want to go I mean, you know, 0:40:05.640 --> 0:40:07.000 I feel like we don't have to go into a 0:40:07.080 --> 0:40:09.360 lot of the grizzly details. A lot of these you 0:40:09.440 --> 0:40:12.680 can kind of assume from where the trajectory has been going, 0:40:13.239 --> 0:40:15.160 that's where we're headed. Yeah. The one thing about the 0:40:15.719 --> 0:40:18.759 Ripper is that his attacks grew more horrific as time 0:40:18.800 --> 0:40:21.480 went by. Yeah, there and every one of them that 0:40:21.640 --> 0:40:25.239 they got more savage. And we're going to talk about 0:40:25.920 --> 0:40:29.960 just a minute, pretty bad already. And this and Elizabeth 0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:33.640 Stride is one of the two of the double night Right, 0:40:33.719 --> 0:40:36.479 and she she only had her throat cut. She wasn't 0:40:36.680 --> 0:40:40.399 fully butchered as the others were. What's led some people 0:40:40.440 --> 0:40:43.800 to suggest that perhaps because it was so busy around it, 0:40:43.920 --> 0:40:47.279 that he was interrupted in mid course. Correct, And that's 0:40:47.360 --> 0:40:53.239 what leads us to victim number four four, which would 0:40:53.320 --> 0:40:58.560 be Katherine Kate Adams. Again, a little background on Kate 0:40:59.239 --> 0:41:04.719 She's forty six years old and same story Fallen on 0:41:04.920 --> 0:41:10.400 hard times, has issues with drinking. On Saturday, the twenty 0:41:10.520 --> 0:41:14.680 three of September, she was picked up at eight thirty 0:41:14.760 --> 0:41:18.320 at night by the local police constable because she was 0:41:18.360 --> 0:41:22.160 passed out in the road. They hauled her in. They 0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:25.960 say she's sobered up enough that they let her go 0:41:26.440 --> 0:41:30.840 around one o'clock in the morning. If I remember the story, 0:41:31.000 --> 0:41:33.000 they knew she had sobered up because they knew her. 0:41:33.040 --> 0:41:34.920 And she was sitting in her cell kind of singing, 0:41:34.960 --> 0:41:37.680 and everybody could hear and Okay, well, I guess Kate, 0:41:37.680 --> 0:41:40.960 you're okay, let's get you out of here. The weird 0:41:41.080 --> 0:41:45.120 thing is that she didn't head in the direction of 0:41:45.600 --> 0:41:48.240 her lodging house. She kind of went in the opposite direction. 0:41:49.520 --> 0:41:53.680 There was police constable walking his route, which took him 0:41:53.719 --> 0:41:57.320 through an area known as Miter Square, and he found 0:41:57.360 --> 0:42:00.800 the body of Kate at one in the morning. His 0:42:01.080 --> 0:42:06.160 route took him through Miters Square fifteen minutes earlier, though, 0:42:06.239 --> 0:42:09.399 so one thirty came through and there was nothing there. 0:42:09.760 --> 0:42:15.120 He came through and he finds the body. That suggest 0:42:15.200 --> 0:42:24.120 that perhaps the murder between his powers of deduction. Uh, well, 0:42:24.239 --> 0:42:27.520 here's here's what they find. And and this is this 0:42:27.719 --> 0:42:32.480 is pretty grizzly. But Um, her neck had been slit, 0:42:33.080 --> 0:42:35.840 Her thighs were naked because of course her her dress 0:42:35.880 --> 0:42:41.120 had been pulled up. Um, her abdomen was exposed. Her 0:42:41.200 --> 0:42:46.719 intestines had been pulled out and placed over the right shoulder. Um, 0:42:47.280 --> 0:42:51.520 there was matter smeared on her cheek. A piece of 0:42:51.600 --> 0:42:55.640 her intestines, evidently about two ft long piece had been 0:42:55.760 --> 0:43:00.239 cut free and was laying next to her left worm, 0:43:00.320 --> 0:43:02.480 almost as if it had been laid there by design. 0:43:03.920 --> 0:43:08.080 Her right ear had been caught. There's a bunch of 0:43:08.200 --> 0:43:13.560 clotted blood on her. I mean, basically, she has been butchered. 0:43:13.840 --> 0:43:20.120 And this one is so interesting, interesting because well, I 0:43:20.200 --> 0:43:23.439 mean I think that actually, Um, Richard talked a little 0:43:23.440 --> 0:43:26.400 bit about this too, in terms of that, you know, 0:43:26.640 --> 0:43:30.360 we just said there was like fifteen minutes this happened, 0:43:31.080 --> 0:43:33.759 like truly, this all of everything that Steve just said 0:43:33.880 --> 0:43:37.520 happened in fifteen minutes. Yeah, and she was still warm, 0:43:37.920 --> 0:43:40.200 the body was still war which tells you it was 0:43:40.440 --> 0:43:42.719 minutes ago. Yeah. But when you think about it, it 0:43:42.719 --> 0:43:44.759 wouldn't take that much time. I mean, you split her, 0:43:44.800 --> 0:43:49.360 throw up, throw on the ground. You know, basically stabber, ripper, 0:43:49.480 --> 0:43:52.680 open reaching, rip out, some oregans, lay him on the ground. 0:43:52.719 --> 0:43:57.080 It wouldn't take any time at all, really, well theoretically, 0:43:57.320 --> 0:44:00.080 I mean, it could have been quick and clean. It 0:44:00.160 --> 0:44:02.839 could have been quick and messy, could have been any 0:44:02.960 --> 0:44:06.279 of that. It's hard to say. I think there's some 0:44:06.600 --> 0:44:10.240 some details that aren't nearly as gory that are probably 0:44:10.440 --> 0:44:14.880 pertinent that we can share. And Richard helped kind of 0:44:14.960 --> 0:44:17.800 walk us through that. And and let's let's hear what 0:44:18.000 --> 0:44:22.400 he said about that. Yeah, what happened was Elizabeth Stride's 0:44:22.400 --> 0:44:25.080 body was found at one o'clock in the morning, and 0:44:25.160 --> 0:44:28.440 she was found in Duckfield Yards off Burning Street. She 0:44:28.520 --> 0:44:30.560 was found by a man named Louis Deemschutz, who had 0:44:30.640 --> 0:44:34.360 come back to the yard from he'd been hawking cheap jewelry. 0:44:34.719 --> 0:44:37.400 But he was the steward of a work on the 0:44:37.440 --> 0:44:40.279 Polish and Jewish working Men's Club Socialist Club that was 0:44:40.320 --> 0:44:43.120 in Duckfield Yard. And as he came into the yard, 0:44:43.239 --> 0:44:47.239 his pony shied and pulled aside, and he looked into 0:44:47.280 --> 0:44:49.200 the dark and he saw something lying on the ground. 0:44:49.520 --> 0:44:51.640 So his first thought was it it was just something 0:44:51.719 --> 0:44:53.719 lying there, so he reached over to lift it with 0:44:53.840 --> 0:44:56.600 his horse with his whip, and he couldn't, so he 0:44:56.719 --> 0:44:59.080 jumped down and struck a match and it was a woman. 0:44:59.560 --> 0:45:03.200 Now his next action is that no one's really ever 0:45:03.320 --> 0:45:06.800 explained it. He presumed it was his wife and she 0:45:06.960 --> 0:45:11.840 was drunk. To investigate, to check on his wife, and 0:45:11.920 --> 0:45:13.640 he found his wife in the kitchen, and that's when 0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:16.080 he went to the other members and he said it 0:45:16.160 --> 0:45:18.640 there was a woman downstairs, and she's drunk or she's dead, 0:45:18.680 --> 0:45:20.840 I'm not certain which. So they went down and that 0:45:20.960 --> 0:45:23.040 they found that her throat had been cut, and it 0:45:23.160 --> 0:45:25.759 was in fact a murder victim, but the rest of 0:45:25.840 --> 0:45:29.000 her body hadn't been mutilated, which was the murder's opera 0:45:29.080 --> 0:45:31.760 endi of the Ripper killings. So this led the police 0:45:31.800 --> 0:45:34.640 to surmise that the ripper had been interrupted, that when 0:45:34.680 --> 0:45:37.720 he come into the yard, he'd actually interrupted the ripper, 0:45:37.920 --> 0:45:40.160 and the ripper had jumped back, and it was that 0:45:40.400 --> 0:45:43.439 sudden movement that startled the pony, which caused it to shy. 0:45:44.239 --> 0:45:46.320 And then whilst amshus in the yard, and fact, it 0:45:46.400 --> 0:45:48.279 dawned on him later that day that the ripper was 0:45:48.320 --> 0:45:51.440 probably hiding alongside him in the dark yard. So had 0:45:51.520 --> 0:45:54.879 he acted differently at that point, the chances are would 0:45:54.880 --> 0:45:57.359 have been taken. But he presumed it was his wife 0:45:57.360 --> 0:45:59.759 and went into the club, which gave the ripper those 0:46:00.080 --> 0:46:02.279 for minutes or even seconds to get out of the yard, 0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:04.840 and he headed for the city of London, which is 0:46:04.840 --> 0:46:07.719 where he met Catherine Etto's now her body was found 0:46:07.800 --> 0:46:11.200 forty five minutes later in Miter Square, which is no 0:46:11.320 --> 0:46:13.680 great distance away from Berna Street. You could even walk 0:46:13.719 --> 0:46:17.040 it in in less than ten minutes, so her body 0:46:17.080 --> 0:46:21.000 was found there. It was just as I say, two murders, 0:46:21.040 --> 0:46:23.200 and that became known as the Night of the Double Murder. 0:46:23.880 --> 0:46:27.560 But there is a belief or a theory that Elizabeth 0:46:27.560 --> 0:46:30.359 Stride wasn't a Ripper victim because she was actually seen 0:46:30.440 --> 0:46:33.959 being attacked by a man called Israel Schwartz fifteen minutes 0:46:34.000 --> 0:46:36.680 before her body was discovered, So some people think that 0:46:36.800 --> 0:46:40.839 she was actually a coincidence, not a victim. And bizarrely, 0:46:41.040 --> 0:46:43.799 some some historians even referred to her as Lucky list 0:46:43.840 --> 0:46:46.440 Stride because she only had a throat cut, the rest 0:46:46.480 --> 0:46:51.399 of the body wasn't mutilated. That I say, what's lucky 0:46:51.400 --> 0:46:55.719 about that? Exactly like guys, lucky he didn't get this 0:46:55.840 --> 0:46:58.160 is it? And I said, that's the night. Probably he 0:46:58.239 --> 0:47:02.480 came closest to being caught, but say that, don't damn 0:47:02.560 --> 0:47:07.600 should didn't didn't say he left the scene and that 0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:10.960 gave the rip of the time he needed. Next up 0:47:11.800 --> 0:47:20.400 is the last of the canal five. We'll just cut that. 0:47:22.280 --> 0:47:26.880 So Mary Kelly, she was found well murdered uh November 0:47:27.040 --> 0:47:32.440 nine eight and she uh was like only twenty five 0:47:32.520 --> 0:47:35.720 years old, which is, um, if you've been following along, 0:47:36.000 --> 0:47:41.120 quite young for this kind of spate of murders. And 0:47:41.239 --> 0:47:44.000 there's no really good information about her life prior to 0:47:44.320 --> 0:47:48.200 eighteen eight seven. Uh. Mostly it's just like conjecture or 0:47:48.320 --> 0:47:51.880 like what she told people. Um. She was probably married 0:47:51.960 --> 0:47:54.640 at sixteen to a coal miner who died like three 0:47:54.760 --> 0:47:57.759 or four years later in a mine explosion. She was 0:47:57.920 --> 0:48:03.080 probably from Ireland, but beyond that the facts are pretty 0:48:03.120 --> 0:48:05.839 few and far between. After her husband's death, she took 0:48:05.920 --> 0:48:10.080 to prostitution. Apparently she was really really attractive, but it's 0:48:10.080 --> 0:48:11.600 a little bit of a mystery as to like what 0:48:11.719 --> 0:48:14.000 she actually looked like. Um. She had a couple of 0:48:14.120 --> 0:48:18.239 different nicknames. One was Dark Mary, but they think that 0:48:18.480 --> 0:48:22.320 probably that had to do more with um, the type 0:48:22.360 --> 0:48:25.880 of personality she was when she was drunk, then with 0:48:26.080 --> 0:48:30.640 her appearance. She probably had blonde or red light red hair. Um, 0:48:30.920 --> 0:48:34.640 she was fair. They called her fair every once in 0:48:34.680 --> 0:48:36.399 a while. She had a lot of nicknames. I don't 0:48:36.440 --> 0:48:39.200 even want to go there. She was described as um 0:48:40.160 --> 0:48:43.320 very quiet, a very quiet woman when sober, but noisy 0:48:43.360 --> 0:48:45.880 when drunk or when in drink excuse me, by the 0:48:45.920 --> 0:48:47.400 man that she was living with at the time of 0:48:47.480 --> 0:48:50.240 her death. But also I'll note that's why I believe 0:48:50.280 --> 0:48:56.120 that she's Irish, because I am Irish too. I am 0:48:56.320 --> 0:48:58.319 I well to be fair, I'm noisy all the time. 0:48:59.440 --> 0:49:02.320 I'm not it once sober. We're gonna dive into this 0:49:02.840 --> 0:49:05.839 and this one, as Joe was mentioning, they just keep 0:49:05.920 --> 0:49:09.360 getting worse and worse. This one's rough. Um. By most accounts, 0:49:09.480 --> 0:49:12.960 after a long night of multiple sightings with multiple men, 0:49:13.480 --> 0:49:17.319 Mary was probably seen with a man whose description uh 0:49:17.680 --> 0:49:21.480 is inadmissible to me because it was clearly false, but 0:49:21.800 --> 0:49:24.640 fine entering her room in a boarding house. I say 0:49:24.680 --> 0:49:26.440 it was false because it was a man by the 0:49:26.520 --> 0:49:29.080 name of George Hutchinson, who we're going to talk about 0:49:29.120 --> 0:49:32.399 in a little bit who was friends with Mary. Um 0:49:32.760 --> 0:49:36.080 he met her at two am. She said, Hey, I'm broke, 0:49:36.160 --> 0:49:37.880 Can you give me some money? And he said no, 0:49:38.040 --> 0:49:41.719 I'm broke too, and then they like parted ways, but 0:49:42.040 --> 0:49:47.320 he creepy watched her leave and uh met with somebody 0:49:47.640 --> 0:49:50.880 who George said it was a man, another man, and 0:49:51.000 --> 0:49:53.080 she said he said that she seemed to know him, 0:49:53.160 --> 0:49:56.280 but the man was dressed really well for the area, 0:49:56.960 --> 0:50:02.319 so he, being a good samaritan m George followed her 0:50:02.640 --> 0:50:06.160 and this man back to Mary's house uh and watched 0:50:06.280 --> 0:50:10.200 the house for like an hour and provide the police 0:50:10.320 --> 0:50:14.879 with an i possibly detailed description, including like eyelash color 0:50:15.160 --> 0:50:18.719 which he could totally see of this. Yeah, from like 0:50:18.880 --> 0:50:22.880 twenty yards away. Absolutely, so there's been a whole lot 0:50:22.960 --> 0:50:27.240 of kind of stuff there. But the story is probably 0:50:27.320 --> 0:50:30.560 at least partially true because another woman who lived in 0:50:30.680 --> 0:50:34.120 the boarding house said that she saw when she came 0:50:34.160 --> 0:50:36.359 home at like two thirty am, there was a man 0:50:36.600 --> 0:50:40.600 standing across the street watching the house. So that's yeah, 0:50:40.640 --> 0:50:43.560 that was Hutchinson. That's creepy either way, it doesn't really matter. 0:50:44.040 --> 0:50:46.560 There are a few reports of Mary being around at 0:50:46.640 --> 0:50:49.080 like eight am or ten am the next morning, but 0:50:49.600 --> 0:50:53.160 pretty much those are false. The corner said that her 0:50:53.480 --> 0:50:56.200 her time of death was between two and eight am, 0:50:56.640 --> 0:50:59.840 which is a wide range, but the mutilation that she 0:51:00.080 --> 0:51:05.320 sustained after death was definitely a couple hours worth of work. 0:51:05.760 --> 0:51:10.640 I don't want to go into too much detail about this. 0:51:11.360 --> 0:51:14.919 We've been doing lots of Grewsome stories this whole time, 0:51:15.120 --> 0:51:18.680 and we've already talked about some grewsome stuff this but 0:51:18.960 --> 0:51:22.759 like this takes the cake. I mean, no one in 0:51:22.840 --> 0:51:25.120 the house heard any commotion to signify when she might 0:51:25.160 --> 0:51:27.280 have been killed. But she was killed with a slash 0:51:27.320 --> 0:51:30.080 to her throat. Probably it was quick and quiet. The 0:51:30.200 --> 0:51:34.880 rest is really awful. Her clothes were neatly folded on 0:51:34.960 --> 0:51:38.400 a chair next to her bed, which means that maybe 0:51:38.640 --> 0:51:41.600 it was a john that she brought home. She was 0:51:41.920 --> 0:51:47.160 likely um asleep. They think she was asleep when her 0:51:47.200 --> 0:51:50.480 throat was cut, um, signifying that the person was in 0:51:50.520 --> 0:51:54.240 there with her. However, um her room in the boarding 0:51:54.280 --> 0:51:58.040 house didn't. She lost the key, so she broke a 0:51:58.080 --> 0:52:01.200 window and just like would read gin and unlock it, 0:52:01.960 --> 0:52:04.200 so it could have been somebody who gained access later. 0:52:04.760 --> 0:52:12.319 Her mutilation is horrifying. Body parts removed, all kinds of cuts, gouges, 0:52:12.880 --> 0:52:15.800 runs the gamut. You really want to know about that, 0:52:15.920 --> 0:52:19.880 there will be Yeah, just google her. There are pictures 0:52:20.320 --> 0:52:26.160 to Another nice little tidbit fact is that there was 0:52:26.360 --> 0:52:30.600 apparently like a really large fire in her You know, 0:52:30.680 --> 0:52:33.839 they've had stoves in their rooms and there had been 0:52:33.920 --> 0:52:39.480 some clothing burned to provide light. Foresaid mutilation. So that's, 0:52:40.640 --> 0:52:42.480 you know, my might might think. My take on that 0:52:42.680 --> 0:52:46.920 is that the the murder probably had his clothing soaked 0:52:46.960 --> 0:52:49.399 with blood, did a quick change of clothes, and then 0:52:49.440 --> 0:52:52.000 just through the clothes in, which is even more disturbing 0:52:52.000 --> 0:52:54.840 because that means he brought a change of clothes in 0:52:54.960 --> 0:53:00.279 banding to get that wild. Yeah, but she was she 0:53:00.440 --> 0:53:03.239 was living on and off with a man, So there 0:53:03.280 --> 0:53:07.480 it's possible that there were other most or as as 0:53:07.880 --> 0:53:11.080 I think somebody has mentioned, there's also the theory that 0:53:11.280 --> 0:53:15.040 perhaps Jack ripperd dressed as a woman when coming and 0:53:15.120 --> 0:53:19.719 going from these things too. That was Yeah, that was 0:53:19.960 --> 0:53:23.440 Jack London or who was it knows Arthur Conan Doyle 0:53:23.680 --> 0:53:26.279 had come up with that. Yeah, and I believe that 0:53:27.040 --> 0:53:30.200 maybe he just borrowed some of Mary's clothes. I mean 0:53:30.239 --> 0:53:33.080 it would explain why, like nobody saw anything unusual leaving 0:53:33.320 --> 0:53:36.839 the women's boarding house that she lived in. But yeah, 0:53:38.520 --> 0:53:41.160 not a nasty little murder. And then we we've got 0:53:41.360 --> 0:53:44.560 one more outlier that we're just going to cover up. Briefly, 0:53:44.840 --> 0:53:49.440 this is related sort of maybe I don't really know. 0:53:49.680 --> 0:53:53.320 This is Francis coles um ak a Francis Coleman. Francis 0:53:53.400 --> 0:53:57.279 Hawkins also noticed charity. Now, uh yeah, I don't know 0:53:57.360 --> 0:54:01.800 where that came from. But she she was someone like 0:54:02.320 --> 0:54:04.880 Marianne Nichols and all the others. Her life was unapproved 0:54:04.880 --> 0:54:08.680 by alcohol. She was a prostitute in the Whitechappell area 0:54:08.760 --> 0:54:12.719 for reportedly about eight years preceding her death. And on 0:54:12.800 --> 0:54:14.920 the day preceding her death, she had been bar hopping 0:54:15.000 --> 0:54:17.960 with the emergencyman named James Sadler who was arrested and 0:54:18.760 --> 0:54:21.760 and they they actually tried to uh send her prison 0:54:21.960 --> 0:54:24.719 for her murder, but it didn't work out that way 0:54:24.800 --> 0:54:27.160 because he had a pretty good alibi. Looking into that 0:54:27.160 --> 0:54:29.439 a little bit, this is real quick, because I don't 0:54:29.480 --> 0:54:32.600 think this is even related to the ripper she liked 0:54:32.640 --> 0:54:34.520 many of the others. Went went back to her lodging 0:54:34.560 --> 0:54:36.440 house where she had been staying. She was booted out 0:54:36.440 --> 0:54:38.279 because she didn't have cash to pay for her bed 0:54:38.360 --> 0:54:40.960 for that night, and so she wound up back on 0:54:41.040 --> 0:54:43.600 the streets looking to earn a little money so she 0:54:43.640 --> 0:54:45.719 could sleep for the night, and she bumped into a 0:54:45.800 --> 0:54:50.279 fellow prostitute named Ellen Klena or Colina Colinna. I don't 0:54:50.320 --> 0:54:53.760 know how her neighbor was pronounced, we'll say Klena. Anyway, 0:54:53.800 --> 0:54:58.320 A man approached them. He propositioned Klena and uh, he 0:54:58.400 --> 0:55:00.800 apparently made her spider sense tank and she said he 0:55:00.840 --> 0:55:02.880 wouldn't have sex with her, and so he punched her 0:55:02.920 --> 0:55:06.359 in the face. Why didn't I know? What a great guy? 0:55:06.680 --> 0:55:12.600 And then propositioned Frances Coles, and Coles left with him. Well, 0:55:12.680 --> 0:55:16.000 well that's not good judgment, do you think I mean? Well, 0:55:16.680 --> 0:55:20.239 at two fifteen a a m Her body was discovered 0:55:20.640 --> 0:55:23.600 by a constable named Ernest Thompson. There was a railway 0:55:23.719 --> 0:55:25.279 art and she her body was in there, and she 0:55:25.440 --> 0:55:28.560 was still alive. Her body had been her throat had 0:55:28.600 --> 0:55:32.360 been slit from ear to ear. She was bleeding profusely, 0:55:32.680 --> 0:55:35.920 but he noticed that her one eye opened and closed, 0:55:36.000 --> 0:55:39.560 so she was still alive. At that time. He blew 0:55:39.600 --> 0:55:42.239 his whistle for more help and all that stuff, and 0:55:42.360 --> 0:55:45.080 they won't got a doctor. But of course she died 0:55:45.400 --> 0:55:49.640 because she bled out yeah yeah, but uh, it doesn't 0:55:49.760 --> 0:55:52.239 look like she was really she's part of the White 0:55:52.280 --> 0:55:56.319 Chappel murders, but the murder was not really the same. Yeah, 0:55:56.360 --> 0:55:59.879 you know, it's just it's just that one piece was left. 0:56:00.280 --> 0:56:05.160 She wasn't mutilated, although then again it's possible because the 0:56:05.480 --> 0:56:08.120 constable reported that when he was approaching the crime, seeing 0:56:08.440 --> 0:56:12.880 you're retreating footsteps that sounds like a man's footsteps running away, 0:56:13.920 --> 0:56:18.320 and so it's possible that interrupted again he interrupted the 0:56:18.520 --> 0:56:22.120 interrupted the crime, and that maybe it was a ripper. 0:56:23.280 --> 0:56:27.440 But here's why I don't think it was. Okay, Uh yeah, 0:56:27.520 --> 0:56:30.400 James Sadler was released because witnesses that seeing him and 0:56:30.440 --> 0:56:34.200 he was a merchant seaman. He was seen between two 0:56:34.320 --> 0:56:36.040 and three am, and it was too drunk to commit 0:56:36.080 --> 0:56:38.400 the murder because he had been bar hopping with her 0:56:38.560 --> 0:56:41.360 the night before. Uh, the reason I don't think so 0:56:41.480 --> 0:56:45.399 it is no mutilation, although again there's extenuating certain necessary. Also, 0:56:45.520 --> 0:56:48.040 she was killed with a blunt knife and the Medical 0:56:48.120 --> 0:56:52.120 Examber reported that the ripper used a sharp knife. This 0:56:52.280 --> 0:56:56.399 was a blunt knife. So okay, there you go. Well 0:56:56.600 --> 0:57:00.440 that that is seven victims total that we've taught about. 0:57:01.280 --> 0:57:05.239 And I think, you know, things that I hadn't thought 0:57:05.280 --> 0:57:09.520 about was the lives of these women at the time, 0:57:09.680 --> 0:57:11.959 the things they go through. And I know it's sad, 0:57:12.560 --> 0:57:15.600 it's very sad, and and they're they're kind of in 0:57:15.719 --> 0:57:18.840 this story, as Richard said, he said, they're they're kind 0:57:18.880 --> 0:57:22.120 of the forgotten piece of the story of who they were, 0:57:22.760 --> 0:57:24.720 and he brings up some really good points, and so 0:57:24.880 --> 0:57:27.640 I want to share that with everybody. I think the 0:57:28.160 --> 0:57:32.560 the other important thing is that I mean, I think 0:57:32.600 --> 0:57:35.760 the victims. I think the victims often become from one 0:57:35.840 --> 0:57:37.840 of a better way of putting the forgotten victims in 0:57:38.120 --> 0:57:40.880 the case, because we just got the names of these women. 0:57:41.440 --> 0:57:44.560 But what they virtually all of them full of a 0:57:44.640 --> 0:57:47.160 similar pattern. And it was a really tragic pattern in 0:57:47.280 --> 0:57:50.080 that I wouldn't say they came from wealthy families, but 0:57:50.120 --> 0:57:55.160 they certainly came from you know, they weren't policy stricken women, 0:57:55.640 --> 0:57:58.240 but they all become alcoholics, and it was a sort 0:57:58.240 --> 0:58:01.240 of a downward spiral that they then their marriages have 0:58:01.320 --> 0:58:05.440 broke down, they've been sometimes ostracized from their families, and 0:58:05.520 --> 0:58:07.080 then they ended up in the East End of London, 0:58:07.200 --> 0:58:10.800 living transient existence in the common lodging houses. So they 0:58:10.840 --> 0:58:14.360 weren't prostitutes by choice, they were prostitutes by necessity. And 0:58:14.440 --> 0:58:17.080 I think that's the thing. That we've got tragic victims 0:58:17.160 --> 0:58:20.640 who often get overlooked, and I think that's the case. 0:58:20.880 --> 0:58:23.200 And also the fact that he was the world's first 0:58:23.600 --> 0:58:25.760 real media murderer. I mean, it's often said he's the 0:58:25.760 --> 0:58:28.640 world's first serial killer, which is not true, but he's 0:58:28.680 --> 0:58:31.880 certainly the first one where the press start to realize this, 0:58:32.080 --> 0:58:36.240 this is capturing people's imaginations, and so the press start 0:58:36.320 --> 0:58:39.720 going to town on it. And what's interesting is that 0:58:40.560 --> 0:58:43.560 over that ten week or so period, when when the 0:58:43.680 --> 0:58:47.640 murders are really grabbing the attention and terrifying people and 0:58:47.680 --> 0:58:50.760 shocking people, the newspapers are coming out several times a 0:58:50.840 --> 0:58:54.000 day reporting on what's going on, the latest finds, and 0:58:54.040 --> 0:58:58.520 they're bringing all this salacious detail to their readers, and 0:58:59.120 --> 0:59:02.520 suddenly you've got they must go over the top. And 0:59:02.640 --> 0:59:05.600 when Mary Kelly gets murdered, it seems she's the last victim. 0:59:06.160 --> 0:59:08.600 It seems that the press realized they've gone too far, 0:59:09.240 --> 0:59:10.960 and it's almost as there were lights which has been 0:59:11.000 --> 0:59:15.400 switched off and it stops it that the salacious detail 0:59:15.600 --> 0:59:18.760 eases off and then interest is lost. But for that 0:59:19.200 --> 0:59:22.520 ten or so a week period, we've got this opportunity. 0:59:22.640 --> 0:59:25.040 I can't think of any other period in history where 0:59:25.080 --> 0:59:27.360 you can look at a specific part of a major 0:59:27.440 --> 0:59:30.840 city in anywhere really, but in a major city in 0:59:30.920 --> 0:59:33.040 England in this case, you can look at a tiny 0:59:33.120 --> 0:59:36.680 part of that area and because of the newspaper reportage, 0:59:37.160 --> 0:59:39.640 get an insight if you like, it's a window into 0:59:39.680 --> 0:59:41.560 the past, and just look at the daily lives of 0:59:41.640 --> 0:59:44.040 the people living through the horror of the jack that 0:59:44.120 --> 0:59:48.120 of the murders. We've we've covered the victims. Now something 0:59:48.160 --> 0:59:51.160 else that we need to talk about is the actual 0:59:51.680 --> 0:59:56.920 activity to the police. Yeah, they wus right exactly now, 0:59:57.160 --> 1:00:00.800 they did just go for douch instant. By the way, 1:00:00.800 --> 1:00:04.240 in the nineteenth century, I don't think they I don't 1:00:04.280 --> 1:00:08.280 think the donut existed. I think it might have accidentally 1:00:08.360 --> 1:00:12.960 been made. But I believe that is a dunkin Donuts creation. Okay, 1:00:13.040 --> 1:00:15.080 I know it's not a dunkin Donuts creation. Please nobody 1:00:15.120 --> 1:00:17.520 said a scathing emails I was making that up. It's 1:00:17.520 --> 1:00:22.240 a joke. But let's let's talk about the police and 1:00:23.200 --> 1:00:25.760 something that people need to understand about the time in 1:00:25.840 --> 1:00:29.120 the area. There was not one police force. There was 1:00:29.200 --> 1:00:34.600 actually two police forces in operation that we're trying to 1:00:34.720 --> 1:00:39.000 catch Jack the ripper. There is the Metropolitan Police and 1:00:39.120 --> 1:00:44.240 then there's the City of London Police. The murders of 1:00:44.480 --> 1:00:49.919 Mary Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and Mary Kelly all 1:00:50.040 --> 1:00:54.200 took place in White Chapel and Spittle Fields, which was 1:00:54.280 --> 1:00:58.160 not really actually in London city limits, correct, that was 1:00:58.360 --> 1:01:01.440 outside of it. So that was the jurisdiction of the 1:01:01.560 --> 1:01:05.880 Metro Police of Metropolitan Police, and they were investigating those 1:01:06.000 --> 1:01:12.040 four murders. Katherine Attos, however, when she was killed in 1:01:12.200 --> 1:01:16.400 Miter Square, that's inside of the City of London, so 1:01:16.680 --> 1:01:20.920 her her death came under the City of London Police. 1:01:21.640 --> 1:01:25.760 And here's here's how the how this works is when 1:01:26.240 --> 1:01:30.560 London was first created, and we're going back to Roman 1:01:30.760 --> 1:01:34.760 times because London was a Roman outpost and at that 1:01:35.040 --> 1:01:41.200 time they call it the Golden Mile because Rome had 1:01:41.280 --> 1:01:44.840 built this and London was a one basically a one 1:01:44.880 --> 1:01:48.480 mile square and they had built walls around it, and 1:01:48.600 --> 1:01:51.720 the Thames ran through the middle and these walls. I've 1:01:51.800 --> 1:01:54.360 seen remnants of these walls, and we're not just talking 1:01:54.400 --> 1:01:57.560 about a brick wall. We're talking about six to eight 1:01:57.760 --> 1:02:02.680 feet thick and upwards of funny feet high. All commerce 1:02:02.800 --> 1:02:05.840 happened inside of the wall, so that's why they called 1:02:05.880 --> 1:02:10.280 it the Golden Mile, and everything else everybody lived in. 1:02:10.360 --> 1:02:15.760 All the work happened outside of that area. So if 1:02:15.880 --> 1:02:18.880 you ever happen to get a chance to go there 1:02:19.120 --> 1:02:23.560 and see these walls, they're fantastic. The pieces that are 1:02:23.600 --> 1:02:27.400 still there are amazing history because there are thousands of 1:02:27.560 --> 1:02:31.520 years old in the middle of a freaking giant city. 1:02:32.320 --> 1:02:34.720 And I thought I didn't see those in London, but 1:02:34.840 --> 1:02:37.800 I saw it when I was in Chester, England. There's 1:02:37.880 --> 1:02:40.840 that was also another Roman walled city, and there's remnants 1:02:40.840 --> 1:02:42.400 of the wall is still there and it's it's it 1:02:42.520 --> 1:02:45.320 really is incredible to think that this is like back 1:02:45.360 --> 1:02:50.560 to the times before Christ. It's amazing. Yeah, well, these 1:02:50.760 --> 1:02:55.120 you know, these these policemen, they are doing a lot 1:02:55.200 --> 1:02:58.880 of work. You got police constables that Bobby's basically that 1:02:58.960 --> 1:03:01.400 are on their route and they walk their route to 1:03:01.560 --> 1:03:04.960 keep an eye out. Jack the Ripper murders hit, they 1:03:05.320 --> 1:03:10.040 are suddenly inundated with work. And this is back in 1:03:10.120 --> 1:03:12.960 the day again, like we said, no cars. Everybody's on 1:03:13.080 --> 1:03:16.040 foot or maybe not a horse, and you gotta track 1:03:16.160 --> 1:03:18.640 everything down. So it is tons and tons of work, 1:03:19.080 --> 1:03:21.520 and there's a little evidently there was a little bit 1:03:21.560 --> 1:03:24.800 of bad blood between the two police forces. It wasn't 1:03:24.840 --> 1:03:27.560 like they really worked together. And there's a lot of 1:03:27.680 --> 1:03:30.840 things where guys, you know, as I know one of 1:03:30.920 --> 1:03:32.600 us had said at some point or maybe it comes 1:03:32.680 --> 1:03:35.600 up later, they named their suspects, but they're all naming 1:03:35.680 --> 1:03:40.919 different suspects, so people weren't really working together. So though 1:03:41.000 --> 1:03:42.960 I know they were trying to do good, it wasn't 1:03:43.160 --> 1:03:49.360 the most organized search and investigation that I've seen. That is, 1:03:49.680 --> 1:03:52.480 and that is like really typical. I mean, they've heard 1:03:52.520 --> 1:03:55.200 many stories and things like serial killer investigations here in 1:03:55.280 --> 1:03:59.040 America where the local police department gets really really territorial 1:03:59.200 --> 1:04:01.760 with the FEDS, like the FBI comes in and stuff 1:04:01.800 --> 1:04:03.480 like that. There's a lot of bad blood. It's so 1:04:03.720 --> 1:04:05.400 it's it's part of the course. Well do you know 1:04:05.440 --> 1:04:09.000 who else was trying to do good? The White Chapel 1:04:09.120 --> 1:04:11.640 vigilance committee. Oh yeah, that's right. Those guys, do you 1:04:11.840 --> 1:04:15.280 talk about them? Yeah? Yeah. They were trying real hard 1:04:15.320 --> 1:04:20.720 to do good. They were comprised of like fourteen area businessmen, tradesmen, 1:04:20.880 --> 1:04:24.440 one actor, and they were formed out of quote a 1:04:24.520 --> 1:04:27.920 concern not for the women who were being killed and mutilated, 1:04:28.160 --> 1:04:30.920 but the impact the killings were having on the commerce 1:04:31.000 --> 1:04:36.320 in the areas. On September tenth eight, which may have 1:04:36.400 --> 1:04:40.360 been a bit late. Uh, they elected their chairman, who 1:04:40.440 --> 1:04:45.120 was local businessman George Lusk, who becomes fairly important in 1:04:45.200 --> 1:04:47.400 a minute. I'll talk about this in just like a second. Here. 1:04:48.200 --> 1:04:51.600 They were interviewed by lots of local papers. Uh. They 1:04:51.920 --> 1:04:55.880 encouraged the police to issue a reward for information, and 1:04:55.920 --> 1:04:58.280 when the police were like nah, they were like, all right, 1:04:58.320 --> 1:05:01.200 we'll do it. So they he put a bunch of 1:05:01.320 --> 1:05:04.280 posters up trying to inform people, saying, you know, any 1:05:04.320 --> 1:05:07.080 information that leads to the arrest of this person, we 1:05:07.160 --> 1:05:10.640 will give you a regard. Yes, it was not a 1:05:10.680 --> 1:05:15.000 whole lot. And actually after the death of Elizabeth Stride, 1:05:15.080 --> 1:05:17.480 the committee decided that they were unhappy with the level 1:05:17.520 --> 1:05:20.320 of protection that the police were offering, so they created 1:05:20.400 --> 1:05:24.000 their own citizen patrol Force and employed to private detectives. 1:05:24.400 --> 1:05:29.320 But George Lusk in October of was the recipient of 1:05:29.400 --> 1:05:32.360 one of the famous Ripper letters. In fact, it gets 1:05:32.400 --> 1:05:35.040 a little worse than that. It was a nice little bit. 1:05:35.120 --> 1:05:37.520 It's a nice little bit of of ripper lore. It's 1:05:37.600 --> 1:05:41.160 the from Hell letter. Yeah, this is very popular. Yeah, 1:05:41.280 --> 1:05:44.880 so uh. He returned home to find a small package 1:05:45.000 --> 1:05:47.840 in the mail. Upon opening it, he found half of 1:05:47.920 --> 1:05:51.800 a human kidney and a note that read from Hell, 1:05:52.560 --> 1:05:57.080 Mr Lusk, s O R. I send you half the 1:05:57.200 --> 1:06:01.600 kidney I took from one woman per praised it for you. 1:06:02.080 --> 1:06:04.520 The other piece I fried and ate. It was very nice. 1:06:04.960 --> 1:06:07.640 I may send you the bloody knife that took out 1:06:08.000 --> 1:06:10.320 took it out if only you wait a while longer, 1:06:10.520 --> 1:06:13.840 signed catch me when you can miss your lux Lusk. 1:06:15.280 --> 1:06:16.960 You should, if you want, you should go out and 1:06:17.040 --> 1:06:19.360 read it. It's there's so many misspellings in here. I 1:06:19.440 --> 1:06:23.000 can't even it's awesome. Well I've seen a copy of 1:06:23.040 --> 1:06:27.080 the original two and it's it's almost illegible to Yeah, 1:06:27.600 --> 1:06:30.280 Mr Lusk, he was pretty sure it was a hoax actually, 1:06:30.520 --> 1:06:32.600 and so he was like, yeah, just throw it away. 1:06:32.920 --> 1:06:35.520 But he told a couple of his fellow committee members, 1:06:35.560 --> 1:06:39.160 and they said, well, actually, maybe we should take that 1:06:39.240 --> 1:06:40.920 to the police, and he said, all right, fine, So 1:06:40.960 --> 1:06:42.840 they took it the police and it kind of just 1:06:43.000 --> 1:06:45.680 fades into lore from that point. There's a lot about 1:06:45.720 --> 1:06:48.120 the letters, and I don't think that we're actually going 1:06:48.160 --> 1:06:50.480 to talk too much about the letters. Um, I think 1:06:50.520 --> 1:06:53.160 that our interview with Richard shed some really good light 1:06:53.360 --> 1:06:56.760 on the letters. Yeah, the letters, I think typically in 1:06:56.880 --> 1:06:59.760 situations like this, usually all kinds of cranks write letters, 1:07:00.040 --> 1:07:02.680 and so it's really hard were you know, journalists or whatever. 1:07:02.760 --> 1:07:06.520 But this one particularly sticks out because it did have 1:07:06.680 --> 1:07:10.880 that half a human kidney, which follows quickly after another letter, 1:07:12.240 --> 1:07:13.920 you know, and I don't I didn't take notes on this. 1:07:14.080 --> 1:07:15.800 I just kind of vaguely read about it. So I'm 1:07:15.840 --> 1:07:19.040 doing this from memory at this point. But there was 1:07:19.080 --> 1:07:21.720 another letter that wasn't released that was right before Lusk 1:07:21.840 --> 1:07:25.040 got it. Uh, this package with a letter that said 1:07:25.120 --> 1:07:28.360 that they were the ripper or whoever sent the letter 1:07:28.680 --> 1:07:31.360 claimed they were going to send half a kidney to somebody, 1:07:31.520 --> 1:07:33.560 and then a couple of days later, half a kidney 1:07:33.560 --> 1:07:35.760 showed up. So there's some there's a little bit of 1:07:36.680 --> 1:07:40.160 evidence to suggest that perhaps there was some of them 1:07:40.200 --> 1:07:43.560 were legitimate, but there were, you know, as Richard talked about, 1:07:43.560 --> 1:07:45.480 and actually we should probably just let him talk about it. 1:07:46.280 --> 1:07:49.240 There's there's so many letters that it's hard to kind 1:07:49.280 --> 1:07:51.360 of suss out what's real and what's not. Yeah, and 1:07:51.440 --> 1:07:53.440 plus but you know, also if you're planning us a 1:07:53.680 --> 1:07:56.600 crank letter with half a kidney in it to some person, 1:07:57.880 --> 1:07:59.920 then it's not that hard to like plan at all 1:08:00.160 --> 1:08:02.520 and send out a letter saying you're going to send 1:08:02.560 --> 1:08:04.880 Hafrican is somebody's several days prior to that. I mean 1:08:05.080 --> 1:08:08.640 it really, you know, that still doesn't prove anything to me. 1:08:10.080 --> 1:08:12.280 Now that the letters, well, first of all, I mean 1:08:13.280 --> 1:08:16.280 one of the things we have to differentiate between is 1:08:16.600 --> 1:08:19.080 the White chapp Or murderer and Jack the Ripper. I 1:08:19.200 --> 1:08:20.840 often said Jack the Ripper was the man who never 1:08:20.960 --> 1:08:24.160 existed because he didn't. He was the creation of a 1:08:24.240 --> 1:08:26.960 letter writer. And that was the famous dear Boss Lenser. 1:08:27.080 --> 1:08:28.680 I keep on hearing the police have court me, but 1:08:28.680 --> 1:08:30.880 they won't fix me just yet. And it goes on 1:08:31.000 --> 1:08:33.679 to gloat over the murders, and then it signed Jack 1:08:33.720 --> 1:08:36.920 the Ripper. Now the letter arrived where it entered the 1:08:36.960 --> 1:08:40.160 investigation when the police were getting a lot of press criticism. 1:08:40.640 --> 1:08:43.120 So the police made the letter public in the hope 1:08:43.160 --> 1:08:45.680 that it would give them a breakthrough, and very soon 1:08:45.800 --> 1:08:48.439 they realized they've made a massive mistake because once the 1:08:48.560 --> 1:08:51.840 letter went public, it gave the murderer a name, that 1:08:52.040 --> 1:08:55.280 name Jack the Ripper, and so the media throughout the 1:08:55.320 --> 1:08:58.560 world latched onto that name and it almost turned it 1:08:58.600 --> 1:09:01.240 into a sort of a pantomime on the streets of 1:09:01.240 --> 1:09:04.360 the East End of London. And the other effect was 1:09:04.560 --> 1:09:07.240 that when that letter went public and it was signed 1:09:07.320 --> 1:09:11.080 Jack the Ripper, hoaxes throughout the land began reaching for 1:09:11.160 --> 1:09:14.400 their pens and the police become became swamped with this 1:09:14.920 --> 1:09:19.040 a tidal wave of Ripper correspondence. So there were lots, 1:09:19.120 --> 1:09:21.280 and we're not just talking one letter. We're talking lots 1:09:21.320 --> 1:09:23.720 of letters that were coming in because every one of 1:09:23.760 --> 1:09:27.839 them had to be investigated and assessed and if ever positive, 1:09:27.840 --> 1:09:30.120 if it was possible, to followed up, and it brought 1:09:30.160 --> 1:09:32.720 the police investigation almost to a standstill. It had the 1:09:32.760 --> 1:09:34.800 opposite effect that what the police had wanted, It gave 1:09:34.880 --> 1:09:39.799 them more more false information they needed. But the letter itself, 1:09:40.040 --> 1:09:42.080 the police at the time and a lot of experts 1:09:42.120 --> 1:09:44.080 today are convinced it was the work of the journalist 1:09:44.439 --> 1:09:49.080 who actually did it, probably just to keep paper papers selling, 1:09:49.760 --> 1:09:52.879 but it certainly did turn five sword least then murders 1:09:53.000 --> 1:09:56.160 into an international phenomenon and gave birth the legend of 1:09:56.240 --> 1:10:00.320 Jack the Ripper. So another kind of issue that uh, 1:10:00.760 --> 1:10:04.720 we wanted to bring up is kind of it has 1:10:04.760 --> 1:10:06.960 the potential to be an inflammatory issue, and that's fine, 1:10:07.160 --> 1:10:09.839 is that there was a lot of anti Semitism happening 1:10:10.680 --> 1:10:13.560 in London at this time. There's I mean, you know, 1:10:13.680 --> 1:10:15.800 and Richard talks about this little bit and we'll we'll 1:10:16.520 --> 1:10:19.400 let him talk about it in a minute. But you know, 1:10:19.479 --> 1:10:23.719 after the double event on thet um police of course, 1:10:23.880 --> 1:10:26.639 just like you, just were scouring the area for clues 1:10:27.400 --> 1:10:30.040 and at about three am a constable found a bit 1:10:30.160 --> 1:10:34.600 of bloody cloth like a shawl the apron. It was 1:10:34.640 --> 1:10:37.959 a piece of the apron excuse me that was apparently 1:10:38.080 --> 1:10:41.160 later to be confirmed as part of Katherine at ows 1:10:41.920 --> 1:10:45.679 ETOs apron excuse me, And above it written in chalk 1:10:46.040 --> 1:10:48.600 was either the Jews are the men that will not 1:10:48.760 --> 1:10:52.400 be blamed for nothing, or the Jews are not the 1:10:52.520 --> 1:10:55.639 men to be blamed for nothing. Um Jews is spelled 1:10:56.040 --> 1:11:00.439 j u w e s. There are are a couple 1:11:00.560 --> 1:11:04.400 different police officers who responded to this. They all wrote 1:11:04.520 --> 1:11:09.080 down different things that this said. And I guess here 1:11:09.200 --> 1:11:10.800 is where we need to back up a little bit 1:11:10.880 --> 1:11:17.720 to the Mary Ann Nicholas murder. Nichols murder and the 1:11:18.120 --> 1:11:22.479 rumors about her killer being Um, the Jewish man named 1:11:22.840 --> 1:11:26.320 uh leather Apron. This was not a particularly good time 1:11:26.360 --> 1:11:29.720 for Jews in London, no matter what. There were a 1:11:29.800 --> 1:11:31.640 lot of them, A lot of them were in this 1:11:31.880 --> 1:11:37.639 kind of White Chapel slum area, and as Richard kind 1:11:37.680 --> 1:11:42.559 of talked about, their influx kind of coincided with these murders. 1:11:43.520 --> 1:11:46.200 And I think that everybody could pretty much agree that 1:11:46.360 --> 1:11:49.719 like this is totally circumstantial. It doesn't actually say anything 1:11:49.760 --> 1:11:53.960 about Jewish people on the whole. But of course, if 1:11:54.000 --> 1:11:55.880 there's a new group of people in an area and 1:11:55.960 --> 1:11:58.639 then things that people have never seen before start happening, 1:11:58.960 --> 1:12:00.960 they're going to blame the new people for the new thing. 1:12:01.320 --> 1:12:03.080 And there were a lot of Jews from Eastern Europe 1:12:03.120 --> 1:12:05.360 who who would come into the area absolutely and a 1:12:06.080 --> 1:12:08.120 ton of Irish that had also recently come into the 1:12:08.160 --> 1:12:10.160 area too, sure, but I think you know, one of 1:12:10.240 --> 1:12:13.240 the things that's really handy about the like Eastern European 1:12:13.360 --> 1:12:15.680 Jews that come into the country is that they all 1:12:15.720 --> 1:12:19.519 speak Yiddish or their native language, not English, so it's 1:12:19.640 --> 1:12:21.960 very it's so it's kind of the human nature of 1:12:22.040 --> 1:12:24.559 it to just say like, well, those people are different. Well, 1:12:24.640 --> 1:12:30.960 it alienates them from you and you from them. So well, 1:12:31.040 --> 1:12:33.439 there's also the blood libel thing too, you know, the 1:12:33.800 --> 1:12:36.519 I mean, there were there are lots of really really 1:12:36.840 --> 1:12:40.240 nasty stereotypes about Jews and it's circulated in Eastern Europe 1:12:40.280 --> 1:12:42.240 for years, the blood libel being you know what that 1:12:42.479 --> 1:12:47.800 is that the Jews had would would kidnap and exanguinate 1:12:48.240 --> 1:12:50.880 Christian children and use their blood to make mots of 1:12:51.000 --> 1:12:54.639 like matza cakes. So yeah, yeah, well there's but there's 1:12:54.680 --> 1:12:57.160 the other aspect of this as well, where we kind 1:12:57.200 --> 1:13:01.280 of get into the the potential of police may have 1:13:01.479 --> 1:13:06.000 apprehended the ripper and there was one credible witness, but 1:13:06.160 --> 1:13:08.360 they were both Jewish, and it is part of Jewish 1:13:08.439 --> 1:13:11.679 law that you can't testify against each other. So there's 1:13:11.840 --> 1:13:15.200 there's that aspect of it as well. There is that 1:13:15.320 --> 1:13:19.240 actually part of Jewish law. Yeah, yeah, it's in the Bible. 1:13:20.760 --> 1:13:24.080 There's also some kind of weird things with the translation 1:13:24.200 --> 1:13:26.800 of this statement because there's a double negative and there's 1:13:26.840 --> 1:13:32.920 a huge misspelling. So there are some people that think 1:13:33.320 --> 1:13:37.200 that with the double negative, the phrase means was was 1:13:37.360 --> 1:13:40.120 meant to mean that the Jews would not take responsibility 1:13:40.200 --> 1:13:43.599 for anything. There are also people who suggest that Jews 1:13:43.880 --> 1:13:47.040 spelled that way is actually like a slang word for two, 1:13:47.479 --> 1:13:49.880 which I don't know what that would make that whole 1:13:50.040 --> 1:13:55.920 thing mean. There's also some kind of like massionic Freemason 1:13:57.040 --> 1:14:00.680 interpretation there no matter what, and you know all that 1:14:00.840 --> 1:14:02.599 Richard kind of tell us because he tells it better. 1:14:03.760 --> 1:14:06.040 It was destroyed before there could be a good record. 1:14:06.280 --> 1:14:08.760 You know, photographs existed at the time, but there's no 1:14:08.880 --> 1:14:13.080 photographs of this graffiti. And you know, Richard says, why 1:14:13.439 --> 1:14:16.040 So when that message was found, Sir Charles Warren, who 1:14:16.120 --> 1:14:19.559 was the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, he was horrified because at 1:14:19.680 --> 1:14:21.600 six o'clock that morning, you were going to have the 1:14:21.600 --> 1:14:25.600 Petticoat Lane Market around that doorway, and it was going 1:14:25.680 --> 1:14:28.719 to bring hundreds of gentile buyers or even thousands into 1:14:28.760 --> 1:14:31.759 an area and to a market that was staffed largely 1:14:31.840 --> 1:14:34.680 by Jewish storeholders, and how the building where he was 1:14:34.720 --> 1:14:38.080 found that was Jewish flats as well. So what he 1:14:38.200 --> 1:14:40.280 thought was, if that's on the wall in the morning, 1:14:40.600 --> 1:14:43.439 we're going to have riots that were innocent Jews will 1:14:43.479 --> 1:14:47.080 be will be attacked by the mob. So he destroyed 1:14:47.120 --> 1:14:49.519 the message, he had it raised before anybody could see 1:14:49.560 --> 1:14:53.000 it the next morning, and that's fed into the conspiracy 1:14:53.240 --> 1:14:56.240 that Sir Charles Warren, being the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, that 1:14:56.360 --> 1:14:58.519 he's done it to cover the fact that the Jewey's 1:14:58.960 --> 1:15:03.040 might have been reference to a Masonic ritual. But it 1:15:03.439 --> 1:15:06.040 probably was. I mean, the different officers who saw it's 1:15:07.040 --> 1:15:08.840 some said it looked faded as they've been there for 1:15:08.960 --> 1:15:12.200 some time. My personal belief is it was coincidence. It 1:15:12.320 --> 1:15:15.639 was already in the doorway. Ripple just happened to drop 1:15:15.720 --> 1:15:19.720 the apron in that doorway. What's not often pointed out 1:15:19.920 --> 1:15:23.000 is that there was lots of racist graffiti against the 1:15:23.080 --> 1:15:25.559 Jews going up in the streets at the time because 1:15:25.560 --> 1:15:28.160 they were scapegoats. So it's probably just a piece of 1:15:28.200 --> 1:15:31.000 that graffiti. But it feeds nice the way the fact 1:15:31.080 --> 1:15:34.400 the misspelling the ju W e s it's that misspelling 1:15:34.479 --> 1:15:36.400 that's seen it turn up as part of the Masonic 1:15:36.520 --> 1:15:39.599 ritual and stuff like that, So you don't he probably 1:15:39.640 --> 1:15:42.920 don't think the Reppert was Jewish, then, right, I I 1:15:43.040 --> 1:15:46.679 think he might well have been. I certainly because Metzki 1:15:46.760 --> 1:15:50.560 was certainly po po polished jew so him and his 1:15:50.640 --> 1:15:53.120 family had come over. And I think, actually it says 1:15:53.640 --> 1:15:55.920 one thing we don't know about the police from quite 1:15:56.000 --> 1:15:59.599 early on, when when they realized that if they kept 1:15:59.680 --> 1:16:02.680 pushing that that this this theory they were looking for 1:16:02.800 --> 1:16:06.200 sort of a Jewish immigrant, this could lead to anti 1:16:06.280 --> 1:16:09.240 Jewish rioting and programs, and innocent people would be killed. 1:16:09.760 --> 1:16:12.880 So I think if the police did catch him and 1:16:12.960 --> 1:16:15.800 he was Jewish and they couldn't try him so you 1:16:15.920 --> 1:16:17.479 had to go to an asylum, I think the police 1:16:17.520 --> 1:16:20.000 probably would have covered it up because they would have 1:16:20.080 --> 1:16:22.280 had full scale rioting in the East End and innocent 1:16:22.360 --> 1:16:24.439 people would have died. So I think from that point 1:16:24.520 --> 1:16:26.719 of view, the police show themselves to be quite enlightened. 1:16:27.160 --> 1:16:29.080 So I think there's a good possibility that he was 1:16:30.360 --> 1:16:32.280 as I say, And if it was Aaron kause Minsky, 1:16:32.360 --> 1:16:35.240 which of all the suspects, I mean he's up there. 1:16:35.280 --> 1:16:39.160 Because the two highest ranking officers seemed to believe, definitely 1:16:39.200 --> 1:16:41.880 believed he was the killer, then I think we have 1:16:42.000 --> 1:16:45.599 to believe it, but say it's interesting and had they 1:16:45.680 --> 1:16:47.080 revealed it and then said, well, we're not going to 1:16:47.120 --> 1:16:50.000 prosecute because he's going to an asylnum and we haven't 1:16:50.000 --> 1:16:51.880 got the evidence that we need that they would have 1:16:51.920 --> 1:16:54.040 had rioting, and I think that's what the police were 1:16:54.120 --> 1:16:56.560 terrified of. Now we get to the part of the 1:16:56.640 --> 1:17:02.000 story where we look at the suspects of who could 1:17:02.080 --> 1:17:05.880 have done this, some of the some of the and 1:17:06.880 --> 1:17:11.360 there's there there's a huge smattering of potential and I 1:17:11.560 --> 1:17:15.879 emphasize the word potential suspect. I want to like suffice 1:17:15.920 --> 1:17:19.080 to say that there is an entire Wikipedia article dedicated 1:17:19.320 --> 1:17:22.839 only to the suspects in this case, and it is huge. 1:17:23.720 --> 1:17:28.840 It includes George Clooney, by the way. Well, here's the 1:17:28.920 --> 1:17:32.320 thing is that we we brought up a couple of 1:17:32.439 --> 1:17:37.560 questions to Richard that he had some really good input on. 1:17:38.320 --> 1:17:41.360 And the things that that we wanted to kind of 1:17:41.479 --> 1:17:46.280 find out was one, why did the ripper do it? 1:17:46.880 --> 1:17:53.439 You know, what was his motivation? Um? And then the 1:17:53.520 --> 1:17:57.360 next was of course, why are there so many suspects? 1:17:58.200 --> 1:18:01.000 And like I said, he had some really good things 1:18:01.080 --> 1:18:03.800 to say. To be honest, I don't think there was 1:18:03.800 --> 1:18:06.040 a motive. I think it was just purely for the 1:18:06.080 --> 1:18:08.439 pleasure of the kills. There's all sorts of theories, the 1:18:08.600 --> 1:18:11.600 theories that he he had been he had caught a 1:18:11.680 --> 1:18:15.280 disease off a prostitute, and he was his revenge. There's 1:18:15.280 --> 1:18:17.280 a theory that he wanted to rid the East End 1:18:17.439 --> 1:18:20.880 of prostitution. There's a wonderful theory that George Bernard Shaw 1:18:20.960 --> 1:18:24.000 first put forward that he was a social reformer and 1:18:24.120 --> 1:18:26.479 he did the murders to expose the horrible conditions in 1:18:26.560 --> 1:18:30.720 the area. So, which is an intriguing one progressive this 1:18:30.960 --> 1:18:32.160 is it. He was just saying, you know, and no 1:18:32.200 --> 1:18:34.160 one's listening, so that I'll do something that will make 1:18:34.200 --> 1:18:36.400 people sit up and take notice. And they certainly did 1:18:36.479 --> 1:18:39.519 sit up and take notice. But really I just think 1:18:39.560 --> 1:18:42.320 he was just probably some nobody living in the area. 1:18:42.760 --> 1:18:45.679 He had he had voices in his head and every sort, 1:18:45.760 --> 1:18:47.519 and those voices got too much and he went out 1:18:47.560 --> 1:18:49.519 and murder. And for the rest of the time he 1:18:49.640 --> 1:18:52.800 was probably somebody who people living next door people who 1:18:52.840 --> 1:18:55.519 saw him thought, you know, he's eccentric, but he's harmless, 1:18:56.120 --> 1:18:58.400 and and that was it. And that's often what these 1:18:58.439 --> 1:19:01.080 serialal has turned out to be. It's often when when 1:19:01.080 --> 1:19:03.160 they brought to justice, or if they're brought to justice, 1:19:03.560 --> 1:19:05.720 it's often the last person you've ever expected it to be. 1:19:06.320 --> 1:19:09.439 So you were saying, you kind of think the voices 1:19:09.479 --> 1:19:10.960 in his head. That kind of leads me to think 1:19:11.000 --> 1:19:14.760 maybe something like schizophrenia. Yes, as I say, it could 1:19:14.800 --> 1:19:17.800 go in any form of illness, schizophrenis seems highly likely. 1:19:18.640 --> 1:19:22.840 The interesting about kause Minski is that we from what 1:19:23.000 --> 1:19:24.679 we know of him when he is in the asylum, 1:19:24.800 --> 1:19:26.559 he's not in the In fact, he's put down as 1:19:26.600 --> 1:19:29.800 non violent, so he just doesn't seem the sort of 1:19:30.600 --> 1:19:33.160 the sild who would did. However, after stress that the 1:19:33.200 --> 1:19:36.719 kause Mensky we know is the Kazminski from eight one onwards. 1:19:37.840 --> 1:19:40.599 We don't know what he was like in eight Uh, 1:19:40.880 --> 1:19:43.400 you know, he could have his condition could have deteriorated 1:19:43.439 --> 1:19:46.240 by eighteen ninety one a great deal. But the only 1:19:46.360 --> 1:19:49.160 violence he's ever put it was shown to have done, 1:19:49.240 --> 1:19:51.559 is to throw a chair at an attendant the asylum. 1:19:52.280 --> 1:19:56.000 So he doesn't seem home assylum, and there's other suspects 1:19:56.040 --> 1:20:01.120 who most certainly were homicidal. So it's it's interesting. We'll 1:20:01.200 --> 1:20:03.240 say it's just one of those things that we'll just 1:20:03.360 --> 1:20:06.920 never know. I'm just curious why why has the list 1:20:07.040 --> 1:20:13.639 of potential suspects grown so exponentially. The main the main 1:20:13.720 --> 1:20:16.599 reason is because he wasn't caught, So anybody can come 1:20:16.680 --> 1:20:18.200 up with a person. I mean, what what a lot 1:20:18.240 --> 1:20:21.240 of writers do is they get their suspect and then 1:20:21.280 --> 1:20:25.240 they make the facts that their suspect. There's very few 1:20:25.280 --> 1:20:26.880 writers actually do it the other way around, which is 1:20:26.960 --> 1:20:30.679 what should be done. Get the facts and then sorry, 1:20:30.760 --> 1:20:33.320 get the facts and then look at who the facts 1:20:33.439 --> 1:20:36.840 lead to. The point is if you go to a 1:20:36.880 --> 1:20:38.519 publisher and so I want to write a book on 1:20:38.600 --> 1:20:41.720 Jack the Ripper, They're only really consider you if if 1:20:41.800 --> 1:20:44.960 you've got a suspect, and the more dramatic the suspect is, 1:20:45.120 --> 1:20:47.400 then the more chance you've got that book being published 1:20:47.920 --> 1:20:51.320 and you know, and then the book becoming a best seller. So, 1:20:51.520 --> 1:20:55.800 like I said, that's that's that's a lot of good information. 1:20:56.479 --> 1:21:00.160 And I really like the points that that Richards brought up. 1:21:00.520 --> 1:21:04.320 Now we're gonna look at a couple of the suspects, 1:21:04.600 --> 1:21:09.559 again are too many to really go into. We're gonna 1:21:09.600 --> 1:21:11.640 go into a couple of them, and we're not going 1:21:11.680 --> 1:21:13.680 to talk about the royal family or anything like that. 1:21:13.800 --> 1:21:17.800 Well maybe I actually I I'm gonna go into that 1:21:17.880 --> 1:21:19.880 one a little bit because I find that one fun. 1:21:20.560 --> 1:21:23.760 It is fun. It's a fun lark and the things 1:21:23.880 --> 1:21:27.720 that that that get brought up are pretty humorous. But 1:21:28.320 --> 1:21:32.120 let's let's not go there yet. So let's start off 1:21:32.520 --> 1:21:35.200 with the first one that we've got on our list, 1:21:35.840 --> 1:21:44.160 which Montague John Drew. Yeah. Uh, Montague, who, by the way, 1:21:44.200 --> 1:21:46.720 I don't believe was the killer, but let me but 1:21:46.880 --> 1:21:50.559 he's still believed by some people to be the killer. Uh. 1:21:50.720 --> 1:21:54.720 He was from an upper class background. He studied at 1:21:54.760 --> 1:21:58.519 Oxford worked as an assistant schoolmaster, and while he was 1:21:58.600 --> 1:22:01.120 doing that, he studied law and he became a barrister 1:22:01.280 --> 1:22:04.680 in eighteen eighty five U and for reasons unknown and 1:22:05.000 --> 1:22:08.439 November eighteen eighty eight he lost his job at the 1:22:08.479 --> 1:22:12.000 school where he was a school of monster for reasons unknown. Again, 1:22:12.040 --> 1:22:15.800 as I said in on December thirty one, eight eight, 1:22:15.960 --> 1:22:19.760 his body was found in the Tamas River. Unfortunately, he 1:22:19.840 --> 1:22:22.240 had stones in his pockets, which apparently it kept his 1:22:22.320 --> 1:22:25.880 body submerged for about a month. So he apparently went 1:22:25.920 --> 1:22:29.200 into the river early in December, and he was thirty 1:22:29.240 --> 1:22:31.360 one at the time of his death. And that wasn't 1:22:31.680 --> 1:22:34.240 just just as another bit of history, that was not 1:22:34.640 --> 1:22:37.680 uncommon at that time for people to go into the 1:22:37.760 --> 1:22:40.600 Thames and not be found for a while. And the 1:22:40.800 --> 1:22:45.040 Thames is a very nice, relatively clean river today, was 1:22:45.200 --> 1:22:49.160 not at the time. Again, as Joe talked about tanneries, breweries, 1:22:49.320 --> 1:22:52.240 all these things, all of their in open sewers, all 1:22:52.360 --> 1:22:54.600 dumping into the Thames. So it's a nasty river. So 1:22:54.760 --> 1:22:57.920 nobody wants to go looking for someone they think might 1:22:57.960 --> 1:23:00.040 have gone into the river because you don't know it, 1:23:00.120 --> 1:23:02.920 you'll come back out. Yeah, and I'm sure it reeks. 1:23:02.960 --> 1:23:04.720 People probably didn't even want to get close to the 1:23:04.840 --> 1:23:09.800 river back not safe drinking water. Yeah. Yeah. The contents 1:23:10.320 --> 1:23:13.599 of his pockets, he had a train ticket data December one. 1:23:14.160 --> 1:23:17.000 He had sixteen pounds that's that's British pounds, not sixty 1:23:17.040 --> 1:23:20.200 pounds of gold, but he had sixteen He had gold 1:23:20.280 --> 1:23:23.439 worth sixteen pounds British or sterling. I guess would be 1:23:23.479 --> 1:23:25.400 a bit way to put it. And he also had 1:23:25.439 --> 1:23:27.800 a check for fifty pounds. Uh. And by the way, 1:23:27.920 --> 1:23:30.599 this was a lot of money in those days. Yeah, 1:23:30.880 --> 1:23:33.479 And so he was carrying a lot of cash that 1:23:33.760 --> 1:23:37.320 was that was still in his pockets. Yeah, in the pockets. Yeah. 1:23:37.400 --> 1:23:40.320 So he was a robbery and murder was obviously not 1:23:40.439 --> 1:23:43.799 amotive here. Um. He his state was valued at about 1:23:44.280 --> 1:23:47.679 a quarter of a million dollars pounds in today's numbers. 1:23:47.880 --> 1:23:52.360 So uh, financial privation was probably not a motive for 1:23:52.479 --> 1:23:55.840 the suicide. If he wasn't indeed a suicide. It was 1:23:56.200 --> 1:23:59.960 ruled suicide after the inquest. Apparently his family had depressed 1:24:00.000 --> 1:24:04.800 a mental issues. His grandmother committed suicide, his attempted suicide, 1:24:04.880 --> 1:24:09.640 his sister later long after his death, killed herself, and 1:24:09.840 --> 1:24:13.719 also there was a note that he left which read quote, 1:24:13.760 --> 1:24:16.200 since Friday, I felt that I was going to be 1:24:16.320 --> 1:24:18.200 like mother and the best thing for me to do 1:24:18.520 --> 1:24:23.920 was die. So I'm thinking that perhaps he actually did 1:24:24.280 --> 1:24:29.000 commit suicide, but his death coincided with the end of 1:24:29.000 --> 1:24:32.200 the Ripper murders, which is why sometime after the fact 1:24:32.240 --> 1:24:34.840 that it didn't have it right away, but eventually years 1:24:34.960 --> 1:24:38.280 later people started putting two and two together and saying, hey, golly, 1:24:38.439 --> 1:24:40.920 he killed himself right at the same time the murders ended. 1:24:42.040 --> 1:24:45.240 I don't believe that there's no cred I just don't 1:24:45.240 --> 1:24:48.120 believe there's any credible evidence that he was actually the Ripper. 1:24:48.920 --> 1:24:52.560 What do you guys think, any any opinions there? The 1:24:52.720 --> 1:24:57.800 timing is the convenience. But yeah, and if we're going 1:24:57.920 --> 1:25:00.799 by like people who died around the same time exactly, 1:25:00.880 --> 1:25:03.240 there's a lot of them. There's a lot of people 1:25:03.680 --> 1:25:05.960 I know exactly. And so I think it's a kind 1:25:05.960 --> 1:25:09.000 of a slander on this guy's memory that he's been 1:25:10.080 --> 1:25:13.760 suggested as possibly being the Ripper, because there's absolutely no 1:25:13.880 --> 1:25:16.679 evidence for it. But and yet still he is considered 1:25:16.720 --> 1:25:20.080 to be a prime candidate as the Ripper, unbelievably. So 1:25:20.720 --> 1:25:23.599 the next candidate that we've got is a gentleman by 1:25:23.640 --> 1:25:30.240 the name of Michael ostrog And he wasn't a suspect again, 1:25:30.680 --> 1:25:34.720 kind of like Montague, he wasn't a suspect that came 1:25:34.760 --> 1:25:38.639 out right away. Instead, he came up several years later 1:25:39.400 --> 1:25:44.280 from a letter that was written that's been referred to 1:25:44.720 --> 1:25:49.240 or or called now the MacNaughton memoranda. The memoranda says 1:25:49.840 --> 1:25:53.760 Michael ostrog a mad Russian doctor and a convict, and 1:25:53.960 --> 1:25:57.920 unquestionably a homicidal maniac. This man was said to have 1:25:58.080 --> 1:26:01.519 habitually been cruel to women and and for a long 1:26:01.640 --> 1:26:04.480 time was known to have carried about with him surgical 1:26:04.600 --> 1:26:09.000 knives and other instruments. His antecedents were the very worst, 1:26:09.120 --> 1:26:11.639 and his whereabouts at the time of the White Chapel 1:26:11.760 --> 1:26:18.439 murders could never be satisfactorily accounted for what he might 1:26:18.520 --> 1:26:22.840 have been unstable, but nobody could ever pin the name 1:26:22.960 --> 1:26:26.439 on him. And again, as it was, he came up 1:26:26.560 --> 1:26:30.840 later on. But he was a petty criminal. So this 1:26:31.000 --> 1:26:33.200 is my again, this is my issue with him being 1:26:33.360 --> 1:26:36.360 called the suspect. He was a petty criminal. He was 1:26:36.520 --> 1:26:40.200 never known to be a violent criminal. He was in 1:26:40.640 --> 1:26:44.800 and out of jail for petty theft, but never murder. 1:26:45.680 --> 1:26:49.960 And he was arrested for theft in July of eighteen 1:26:50.040 --> 1:26:53.320 eighty seven and sentenced to six months of hard labor, 1:26:53.600 --> 1:26:57.960 So that's from September eight eight seven forward, released on 1:26:58.200 --> 1:27:01.040 March tenth of eighteen eighty eight, So this is before 1:27:01.160 --> 1:27:06.200 the murders happened, and he was quote unquote cured of 1:27:06.760 --> 1:27:11.920 his petty theft habit. Well, the problem is is that 1:27:12.520 --> 1:27:17.320 he not too long after that, was arrested and sentenced 1:27:17.360 --> 1:27:22.360 to two years in prison for theft in Paris on 1:27:22.479 --> 1:27:28.360 the eighteenth of November, which is before the killing stop. 1:27:29.520 --> 1:27:32.040 So that's why I have a problem with with Ostrog 1:27:32.160 --> 1:27:38.439 being keyed in as one of the major suspects. Yeah, 1:27:38.520 --> 1:27:41.479 that would make sense. Okay, so much for your week, candidate. 1:27:43.000 --> 1:27:45.679 Let me give you another week candidate here. George Chapman. 1:27:47.000 --> 1:27:51.280 George Chapman was also known as the Burrow poisoner. He 1:27:51.439 --> 1:27:54.880 was He was a Polish London with an unpronuncible name. 1:27:55.479 --> 1:27:58.000 His his last name was I'm not going to pronounce 1:27:58.280 --> 1:28:03.280 his entire full name, but the surname was Klausowski or Klosowski. 1:28:03.439 --> 1:28:07.200 I think, yeah, there's lots of kind Klosowski. I think 1:28:07.280 --> 1:28:10.720 that there's the best way to pronounce it. But he 1:28:10.920 --> 1:28:14.600 was arrested supposedly, and I've got conflicting information about this, 1:28:14.960 --> 1:28:18.120 and he was supposed he was arrested in question regarding 1:28:18.160 --> 1:28:22.679 the Ripper murders. He had training and surgery and warsaw 1:28:23.040 --> 1:28:26.360 and worked there as a doctor's assistant until about December 1:28:26.439 --> 1:28:29.240 eighteen eighty six and to the best of our knowledge, 1:28:29.280 --> 1:28:32.680 he arrived in London in eighty eight. He married while 1:28:32.720 --> 1:28:35.439 he was in London. Apparently liked to play the field. 1:28:35.520 --> 1:28:38.640 He had several mistresses, three of whom he murdered by 1:28:38.720 --> 1:28:41.880 poison later on. This is well after the whole track 1:28:41.960 --> 1:28:44.840 the Ripper thing was done. The murders took place in 1:28:45.720 --> 1:28:48.840 nineteen o one and nineteen o two. An investigation into 1:28:48.880 --> 1:28:51.760 the last murder Fount revealed that the death was due 1:28:51.800 --> 1:28:55.640 to poison. So the bodies of the previous mistresses were 1:28:55.720 --> 1:28:59.960 exhumed and tested, and well, it turns off he poised 1:29:00.000 --> 1:29:02.720 in them too, and so he was tried for the 1:29:02.800 --> 1:29:05.040 murder of the last one, whose name was Maud Marsh 1:29:05.960 --> 1:29:09.519 and I was convicted and was hanged in April nineteen 1:29:09.600 --> 1:29:12.679 o three. So why is he suspected to be the Ripper? Well, 1:29:13.439 --> 1:29:17.479 here are the reasons. A Scotland or detective name Frederick 1:29:17.600 --> 1:29:22.040 Aberleine said that he was his chief suspect, and the 1:29:22.120 --> 1:29:27.840 reasons were that he had questioned his wife and the 1:29:27.920 --> 1:29:30.479 wife told police that he would often go out for 1:29:30.680 --> 1:29:34.040 night or at night for hours on end. Another reason 1:29:34.160 --> 1:29:36.160 is that he arrived in Whitechapel at about the same 1:29:36.240 --> 1:29:39.280 time the murders began and left to go to America 1:29:39.840 --> 1:29:42.919 about the same time that the murders ended. His description 1:29:43.080 --> 1:29:45.200 matched out of the mass and the man last seen 1:29:45.240 --> 1:29:48.880 with Mary Keller Kelly, which we've talked about. Yeah, the 1:29:49.120 --> 1:29:54.479 description is uh, you know, to my mind, kind of bogus. Yeah. Uh, 1:29:54.680 --> 1:29:56.920 he was violent and this is kind of documented. He 1:29:57.000 --> 1:30:02.080 was misogynistic. Okay, So again, Frederick Aberlein, the Scotland er detective, 1:30:02.200 --> 1:30:04.439 said that for those reasons, he believed that he was 1:30:04.760 --> 1:30:09.479 the best ripper suspect. But I think it's pretty thin. 1:30:09.640 --> 1:30:12.559 I mean, as far as him going out at night 1:30:12.680 --> 1:30:15.160 for hours on end, well, the guy was a philanderer, 1:30:16.160 --> 1:30:17.840 of course. Of course he left to go out for 1:30:17.840 --> 1:30:20.600 a night, you know, and and have sex with his mistresses. 1:30:20.720 --> 1:30:24.240 Of course he did so. And that doesn't really mean 1:30:24.280 --> 1:30:26.519 anything to me as far as the other stuff goes. 1:30:26.600 --> 1:30:30.160 I mean, it's just none of it really is much 1:30:30.200 --> 1:30:32.799 in the way of Evans. Well, sorry, he's a weak candidate. 1:30:32.960 --> 1:30:35.439 Are you guys ready for a strong candidate? Yeah, he's 1:30:35.479 --> 1:30:41.960 already Yeah, are ready? Aaron Kosminsky, I've heard of this guy. Yeah, 1:30:42.040 --> 1:30:45.160 you may recognize him. He's the one who like a 1:30:45.320 --> 1:30:50.479 couple of months ago, DNA evidence quote proved was the ripper. 1:30:51.680 --> 1:30:57.000 He was a Russian Polish barber. He emigrated to England 1:30:57.120 --> 1:31:00.479 in the eighteen eighties, and he did indeed live in 1:31:00.600 --> 1:31:05.000 White Chapel in eighty eight and he was Jewish. I'm 1:31:05.000 --> 1:31:08.360 gonna go ahead and like give it up front, modern detectives, 1:31:08.479 --> 1:31:10.799 this is my like big problem with him. Modern detectives 1:31:10.840 --> 1:31:14.360 aren't sure that this is like that Cosminsky is the 1:31:14.680 --> 1:31:19.080 Cosminski that police suspected back in the eighteen late eighteen nineties. 1:31:19.520 --> 1:31:22.519 But I'll talk about that in a little minute. Kase 1:31:22.560 --> 1:31:24.960 Minsky was in and out of a sane asylums and 1:31:25.000 --> 1:31:28.200 institutions most of his life. One could assume that, like 1:31:28.520 --> 1:31:32.360 in this day and age currently and you know, the teens, 1:31:32.680 --> 1:31:35.000 if somebody was in and out of mental institutions, they 1:31:35.040 --> 1:31:39.960 wouldn't then be allowed to like be barbers moments like 1:31:40.040 --> 1:31:42.960 around people's next But these were different days, um, and 1:31:43.160 --> 1:31:46.320 you know, his insanity took the form of auditory hallucinations, 1:31:46.640 --> 1:31:49.679 paranoid fear of being fed by other people that actually 1:31:49.760 --> 1:31:51.240 was so bad that it drove him to pick up 1:31:51.280 --> 1:31:53.840 and eat food that people dropped as litter and he 1:31:54.000 --> 1:31:57.519 refused to wash uh, and the cause of his insanity 1:31:57.640 --> 1:32:02.400 was cited as um self abe. Yeah, that which we 1:32:02.479 --> 1:32:04.320 now know, let's be honest, is not like so much 1:32:04.360 --> 1:32:07.800 cause of insanity as like sanity. Yeah exactly. But yeah, 1:32:07.880 --> 1:32:09.720 the that was that was I mean, when I was 1:32:09.800 --> 1:32:13.200 a kid, I mean, self abuse was supposedly got to 1:32:13.240 --> 1:32:17.760 create issues for you. Yeah. So in February of eight year, 1:32:18.240 --> 1:32:23.920 nineteen nineteen, self abuse, masturbation. Yeah, okay, I'm just making 1:32:23.960 --> 1:32:27.680 sure I understood. Not that I'm trying to make dis gratuitous, 1:32:27.720 --> 1:32:30.799 but I just wanted to make I understood your story 1:32:31.520 --> 1:32:36.080 looks on your face like self abuse wink. Okay, in 1:32:36.160 --> 1:32:39.360 a story where we've talked about a man cutting uteruses 1:32:39.439 --> 1:32:43.479 out of women, masturbation, that's a bridge too far. That's 1:32:43.960 --> 1:32:46.240 a bridge too I can see it. Though. It's kind 1:32:46.280 --> 1:32:48.479 of like it's kind of like the gateway drug to 1:32:48.760 --> 1:32:51.200 like mass murder and stuff like that. So I guess. 1:32:51.240 --> 1:32:55.440 In February of nineteen nineteen, kause Minsky, he was institutionalized 1:32:55.479 --> 1:32:57.000 at this point, had been for a number of years. 1:32:57.840 --> 1:33:01.120 His illness had driven him down to a startling ninety 1:33:01.240 --> 1:33:03.840 six pounds, and he died in March of that year 1:33:04.160 --> 1:33:10.440 in in a mental institution. Right, So, the Cosminsky connection 1:33:10.680 --> 1:33:13.559 to the Ripper murders wasn't really established until a couple 1:33:13.600 --> 1:33:19.360 of years later when people were going through old records. 1:33:19.760 --> 1:33:26.280 Um A constable apparently in nineteen eighteen ninety four wrote 1:33:26.280 --> 1:33:29.160 a lotter to his daughter saying that Cosminski had been 1:33:29.200 --> 1:33:33.640 a suspect that no first name had been given. The 1:33:33.720 --> 1:33:36.840 letter stated that Cosminski was a suspect because he had 1:33:37.080 --> 1:33:40.680 quote a great hatred of women with strong homicidal tendencies. 1:33:41.080 --> 1:33:46.479 And I'll be honest, nothing in any records of of 1:33:46.640 --> 1:33:50.400 Aaron Cosminski, the man that we're talking about right now, 1:33:51.080 --> 1:33:54.040 suggests that he was violent in any way. The only 1:33:54.520 --> 1:33:56.800 little spate of violence he had was he threw a 1:33:56.920 --> 1:33:59.760 chair at a nurse once. And he was in and 1:33:59.800 --> 1:34:03.080 out of institutions a lot. Most records say that he 1:34:03.280 --> 1:34:08.320 was kind of um, yeah, he was like he was 1:34:08.360 --> 1:34:11.120 actually scared of people a little bit. He didn't he 1:34:11.280 --> 1:34:12.840 was actually scared, you know, as I said, he was 1:34:12.960 --> 1:34:16.960 scared of like people, He didn't want to be fed, like, 1:34:17.200 --> 1:34:20.200 he was scared of interacting on like an emotional level 1:34:20.280 --> 1:34:23.760 with other human beings. He didn't ever attack anybody. He 1:34:23.760 --> 1:34:25.320 would just kind of like would sit in his cell 1:34:25.400 --> 1:34:28.800 and be quiet a lot. A few years later, Commissioner 1:34:28.880 --> 1:34:31.799 wrote a book in which he said that the ripper 1:34:32.160 --> 1:34:37.040 was a low class Polish Jew. And um, before we 1:34:37.160 --> 1:34:40.960 even get into the DNA evidence part, uh doctor's notes. 1:34:41.000 --> 1:34:44.920 As I said, I'll describe Kasminski as harmless. Also, he 1:34:45.080 --> 1:34:47.960 spoke mostly Ish when he was locked up, which indicates 1:34:48.120 --> 1:34:50.920 that his English was likely not very good. Um, which 1:34:51.000 --> 1:34:52.800 means that it would have probably been pretty hard for 1:34:52.920 --> 1:34:57.760 him to lure women into alleys, to be a john 1:34:57.800 --> 1:35:01.120 of any kind. But you the other the other big 1:35:01.240 --> 1:35:03.320 thing for me is that Aaron Cosminski wasn't put away 1:35:03.400 --> 1:35:08.120 until eight um, and the murder stopped in That's kind 1:35:08.120 --> 1:35:10.360 of key, yeah, he the murders should have gone on 1:35:10.479 --> 1:35:13.040 for longer. Yeah. And then we come to the DNA 1:35:13.120 --> 1:35:16.280 evidence part of this, and I guess we'll let Richard 1:35:16.439 --> 1:35:19.439 explain a little bit about what the DNA evidence is about, 1:35:19.479 --> 1:35:22.439 and then I'll I'll talk about it a little bit after. 1:35:23.160 --> 1:35:28.160 You know, he kind of describes how the evidence quote 1:35:28.200 --> 1:35:32.000 evidence came about to begin with. He can do it 1:35:32.040 --> 1:35:34.880 way better than I can, you know. And for the 1:35:34.960 --> 1:35:37.840 DNA evidence. I loved when we when we asked Richard 1:35:37.920 --> 1:35:42.600 that question, his initial response was my favorite party. I 1:35:42.760 --> 1:35:45.360 was hoping you wouldn't ask that one. We have to 1:35:46.560 --> 1:35:50.479 the DNA. It's the evidence is interesting. Basically, it's a 1:35:50.560 --> 1:35:53.200 shoal that purports to be the show that Katherine knows 1:35:53.280 --> 1:35:55.960 was wearing, and it was reportedly found next to her body, 1:35:56.320 --> 1:36:00.160 picked up my police officer and taken home, and it's 1:36:00.200 --> 1:36:03.519 passed down through generations of the family and finally it 1:36:03.600 --> 1:36:05.760 was auctioned in I believe it was two thousand and 1:36:05.840 --> 1:36:08.240 seven when it was bought by Russell Edwards, who's the 1:36:08.280 --> 1:36:10.599 man behind the new book on it, and he then 1:36:10.680 --> 1:36:14.479 had it subjected to DNA testing and he then matched 1:36:14.520 --> 1:36:18.320 the DNA to a descendant of Katherine Eddo's. It was 1:36:18.680 --> 1:36:22.000 a descendant of Aaron Kazminski. The only problem is he 1:36:22.160 --> 1:36:24.719 hasn't told us. He's refusing to say who the descendant 1:36:24.760 --> 1:36:28.599 of Aaron Kasmnski is, so historically we can't really check 1:36:28.720 --> 1:36:32.400 the veracity of that. It purports that on the shore 1:36:32.520 --> 1:36:35.320 they found our Aaron cos or they found the DNA 1:36:35.439 --> 1:36:38.519 evidence to suggest that Aaron Kasminski had been near the 1:36:38.600 --> 1:36:41.479 shore but even if his DNA is on the shore, 1:36:41.560 --> 1:36:44.160 that it doesn't prove that he murdered Katherinettos, just that 1:36:44.240 --> 1:36:47.000 he was somewhere, you know, that he met Katherinettos and 1:36:47.560 --> 1:36:50.040 what since what what are occupation asked that he that 1:36:50.080 --> 1:36:53.679 he'd been with Katharinetto's So, in my opinion, the shold 1:36:53.720 --> 1:36:57.360 the shore doesn't actually prove anything, but it's it's interesting. 1:36:57.439 --> 1:36:59.519 I mean, it keeps the case going, it keeps the 1:36:59.600 --> 1:37:02.880 interest in the case, and it adds an experiment to it. 1:37:03.040 --> 1:37:05.960 So let's just say it's interesting that it say that 1:37:06.040 --> 1:37:08.920 the two mating officers do seem to have thought that 1:37:09.400 --> 1:37:13.120 Kasminski and so I would say, yeah, it's it's interesting, 1:37:13.200 --> 1:37:15.920 but it's not conclusive, and it's it's far from conclusive. 1:37:16.240 --> 1:37:19.600 And I think we'll never know for sure because so 1:37:19.800 --> 1:37:22.880 much of the evidence has gone you know, I'm with him, 1:37:23.040 --> 1:37:26.080 you know, I'll say upfront, I don't buy this whole 1:37:26.160 --> 1:37:28.879 DNA evidence thing. Um, there are a lot of problems 1:37:28.920 --> 1:37:30.920 with it. You know, they got the DNA off the 1:37:31.000 --> 1:37:33.920 shawl that supposedly maybe belonged to one of the victims. 1:37:34.000 --> 1:37:36.639 We've kind of discussed this. Not only is that week, 1:37:36.760 --> 1:37:39.120 but there's like no chain of evidence for the shaw 1:37:40.040 --> 1:37:44.000 the study or the evidence hasn't been pure reviewed. Also, 1:37:44.760 --> 1:37:48.000 as a fun fact, the news broke in, uh the 1:37:48.120 --> 1:37:50.360 Daily Mail, which you may or may not recognize as 1:37:50.400 --> 1:37:54.519 a British tabloid. That's like where the results were first published. 1:37:54.840 --> 1:37:58.479 That's a little sketchy and world. Well actually, you know, 1:37:58.560 --> 1:38:04.000 in fact, one of our own Oregonian reporters, Susannah Bowdman, 1:38:04.240 --> 1:38:07.080 puts it, the Daily Mails reporting on science and scientific 1:38:07.160 --> 1:38:11.880 evidence is let's say, not known to be robust. Is 1:38:11.920 --> 1:38:14.800 like yes, actually, and the thing to remember too is 1:38:14.840 --> 1:38:18.479 that you know, nobody knows who this shawl or whatever 1:38:18.560 --> 1:38:21.519 it was belonged to, if it was We're Killers, or 1:38:21.600 --> 1:38:25.400 if it was the victims, if it was the victims, 1:38:25.520 --> 1:38:29.240 and if it had some quote unquote DNA evidence. Uh, 1:38:30.200 --> 1:38:32.800 well she was prostitutes, so it could have had d 1:38:33.720 --> 1:38:36.040 evidence from all kinds of guys on Yeah, and I 1:38:36.080 --> 1:38:39.439 guess so as a final nail, mcoffin Richard brings this 1:38:39.560 --> 1:38:42.360 point up, and we don't even know, in all honesty, 1:38:42.439 --> 1:38:44.599 we don't even know that was her short. It's it's 1:38:44.720 --> 1:38:47.920 it's one of those interesting things, and it's it's passed 1:38:47.920 --> 1:38:49.360 through a lot of different people. I mean a lot 1:38:49.400 --> 1:38:53.519 of people have had it. I suspect, although I can't 1:38:53.560 --> 1:38:55.160 you know, well, I don't know for certain, but it's 1:38:55.200 --> 1:38:59.760 been it's been handled. And there's also rumors that her 1:39:00.040 --> 1:39:02.880 sentence handled to the conference. Whether whether that's true or not, 1:39:03.040 --> 1:39:07.240 that's in dispute. But certainly the photographs of Russell holding 1:39:07.280 --> 1:39:09.840 the shawl up, it's not banked, it's not you know, 1:39:09.920 --> 1:39:14.520 it's just there. There's no cross contaminations. Also a possibility 1:39:14.560 --> 1:39:16.680 to look at as well. And it here's my one 1:39:16.800 --> 1:39:21.519 last final huge problem with Aaron Cosminski is Aaron David Cohen. 1:39:22.000 --> 1:39:24.000 You guys, did did he come up in your research 1:39:24.040 --> 1:39:28.479 at all? No, that name doesn't. So it turns out 1:39:28.560 --> 1:39:32.200 Aaron Cohen is a name that asylums used when names 1:39:32.360 --> 1:39:37.040 like for example, Kosminsky would have been too hard to pronounce, 1:39:37.320 --> 1:39:39.639 or like the person admitting that person to an asylum 1:39:39.800 --> 1:39:42.639 was lazy. It was like it was like a John Doe. Okay, 1:39:43.640 --> 1:39:45.360 they were like, that name is too hard to spell. 1:39:45.479 --> 1:39:48.880 We're just gonna say you're Cohen from now on. So 1:39:49.400 --> 1:39:53.760 Aaron David Cohen a k A. Nathan Kozminski was a 1:39:53.800 --> 1:39:57.360 bootmaker in Whitechapel in the area until on the twelfth 1:39:57.439 --> 1:40:05.559 of December. He was institutionalized because syphilis. He was crazy, 1:40:05.680 --> 1:40:08.800 it turns out, and kind of the killing time. Kind Uh. 1:40:08.960 --> 1:40:11.400 It's hard to tell because you know, records are sketchy, 1:40:11.760 --> 1:40:15.320 but I recommend a Google on this guy. He was violent. 1:40:15.760 --> 1:40:18.839 He was violent against women, he was violent against nurses. 1:40:19.120 --> 1:40:24.639 He went kind of crazy. He was institutionalized just right 1:40:24.760 --> 1:40:31.240 after the like conical murders. I can say that word 1:40:31.280 --> 1:40:36.080 tonight ended. His last name was Kiminski instead of Kosminski. 1:40:36.320 --> 1:40:39.040 He was a polished Jew who was a bootmaker who 1:40:39.080 --> 1:40:42.320 wore a leather apron at the time. I think that, 1:40:42.880 --> 1:40:46.479 you know, if we're talking about like strong Kosminsky, I 1:40:46.720 --> 1:40:49.799 I suggest David in the name Minsky has been spelled 1:40:49.880 --> 1:40:52.760 many ways, and there's been a lot of conjecture over 1:40:53.160 --> 1:40:57.600 which Kosminski was. So I think that David Cohen is 1:40:57.640 --> 1:41:02.200 a huge problem for the Kosminsky situation. Yeah, no, it's 1:41:02.200 --> 1:41:05.280 all confused. I mean, what's his name, Like the same 1:41:05.320 --> 1:41:09.519 thing with Klosowski was a k. George Chapman. I mean, 1:41:09.640 --> 1:41:11.840 I mean, yeah, they've all got these kind of like 1:41:12.080 --> 1:41:17.000 similar sounding names and it's just a big jumble. Yeah, 1:41:17.040 --> 1:41:20.479 I agree. Yeah, So anyway, I think I think we'd 1:41:20.479 --> 1:41:26.280 agree that the ripper was probably not just kidding. No. 1:41:26.439 --> 1:41:28.360 I mean I have I have an outlier that I'd 1:41:28.360 --> 1:41:30.160 like to bring up that we've talked about a little bit. 1:41:30.280 --> 1:41:33.439 And you know, he's not accepted as a serious. Yeah, 1:41:33.840 --> 1:41:36.120 let's have it because I've got some not so serious Yeah, 1:41:36.200 --> 1:41:39.160 And we talked about him a little bit. George Hutchinson, 1:41:40.080 --> 1:41:44.360 the dude who like stood outside of Mary Kelly. Yeah, 1:41:44.640 --> 1:41:47.160 and then like and then was like, yeah, no, his 1:41:47.240 --> 1:41:52.519 eyelashes were black. I think, you know, as previously stated, 1:41:53.200 --> 1:41:57.160 on November twelve, George went to the London Police to 1:41:57.200 --> 1:42:01.120 make a statement about the November nine killing Mary Jane Kelly. 1:42:01.520 --> 1:42:05.160 He gave a super detailed description which we just talked 1:42:05.200 --> 1:42:09.759 about and nobody really believes this description. And in fact, 1:42:10.400 --> 1:42:17.040 one of the inspectors said that, uh, maybe maybe George 1:42:17.120 --> 1:42:20.920 was trying to cover his tracks, or maybe maybe George 1:42:21.040 --> 1:42:23.400 was you know actually a lot of it's not uncommon 1:42:23.560 --> 1:42:28.040 for sir killers to insert themselves into the investigation. Yeah, 1:42:28.200 --> 1:42:30.080 that was I mean, that's kind of the conjecture here, 1:42:30.160 --> 1:42:32.560 is that like he was like, oh, yeah, you know, 1:42:32.760 --> 1:42:34.800 he got a great look at him and this is 1:42:34.840 --> 1:42:37.400 exactly what he looked like, and but he wanted to 1:42:37.439 --> 1:42:39.519 be a part of it. The other thing is that 1:42:40.320 --> 1:42:43.400 he was he was pretty broke and at the time 1:42:43.880 --> 1:42:45.960 he would have made a whole lot of money selling 1:42:46.040 --> 1:42:49.599 his story to the newspaper. But he is brought up 1:42:49.680 --> 1:42:52.760 as like a vague kind of there's not a whole 1:42:52.760 --> 1:42:54.639 lot of information on him, but it could. I mean, 1:42:54.720 --> 1:43:00.439 it's it's possible, possible, not plausible possible. The next outlier 1:43:00.560 --> 1:43:04.280 that we've got is what's often referred to as the 1:43:04.479 --> 1:43:11.360 Royal conspiracy and the Freemason connection. And I could walk 1:43:11.479 --> 1:43:14.040 through that, but we we talked with Richard about this, 1:43:14.320 --> 1:43:17.280 and I really like the way he puts it. We're 1:43:17.320 --> 1:43:21.920 actually gonna have Richard explained the Royal conspiracy and then 1:43:22.080 --> 1:43:27.479 how that ties in with the Freemasons. The classic one 1:43:27.560 --> 1:43:30.479 here has causes the Royal conspiracy and the fact it 1:43:30.560 --> 1:43:32.679 might have been a member of the royal family, which 1:43:33.240 --> 1:43:36.080 is one of my favorites. This is it. It's been 1:43:36.160 --> 1:43:39.479 around since the fifties, the Royal family theory. The member 1:43:39.479 --> 1:43:41.439 of the royal family in question was Prince Albert, ed 1:43:41.520 --> 1:43:44.519 with Victor, who was Queen Victoria's grandson and would have 1:43:44.560 --> 1:43:48.519 been King of England except he died in eight But 1:43:49.360 --> 1:43:52.800 we know his whereabouts on the knights of most of 1:43:52.880 --> 1:43:54.840 the murders, and he I mean the knights of the 1:43:54.880 --> 1:43:58.680 double murder. He wasn't even in London, so we know 1:43:58.800 --> 1:44:02.400 where he was. He was, so that he probably wasn't. 1:44:02.800 --> 1:44:05.280 And then that comes into the Royal conspiracy theory that 1:44:05.360 --> 1:44:08.479 Prince Albert Edward Victor had had a child by his 1:44:08.600 --> 1:44:13.240 mistress Annie Elizabeth Crook. The Freemasons had broken the family 1:44:13.360 --> 1:44:16.280 up because the chart that it's all to do with 1:44:16.320 --> 1:44:19.120 her being a Catholic and everything. The Masons had broken 1:44:19.160 --> 1:44:21.960 the family up. The child was smuggled to safety by 1:44:22.000 --> 1:44:24.040 their servant, girl Mary Kelly, who brought it to the 1:44:24.080 --> 1:44:28.320 East end of London, and then she told the felling 1:44:28.360 --> 1:44:30.880 with a gaggle of drunken prostitutes, told them what she knew, 1:44:31.040 --> 1:44:33.519 and they started black men in the royal family. So 1:44:33.680 --> 1:44:36.840 the Mason set out to silence all the prostitutes, and 1:44:36.960 --> 1:44:39.280 they did it with the royal physician, Sir William Gold, 1:44:39.439 --> 1:44:42.320 who went around in a carriage and depending on what 1:44:42.479 --> 1:44:44.840 film version that tempts them to the carriage by showing 1:44:44.880 --> 1:44:48.600 them bunches of grapes and then they get murdered and 1:44:48.720 --> 1:44:51.479 Mary Kelly is the last victim. So with that, the 1:44:51.560 --> 1:44:53.760 murders coming to an end because there's no longer the 1:44:53.880 --> 1:44:58.240 threat of the royal family or society being blackmailed. Wonderful theory, 1:44:58.320 --> 1:45:02.280 but it's probably just a spiracy theory. That's a fun theory, 1:45:02.400 --> 1:45:05.880 but theory it doesn't. Yeah, but it doesn't bring it 1:45:05.880 --> 1:45:10.120 in account. Why than the mutilations took place? Now, I mean, 1:45:10.880 --> 1:45:12.280 as I said, I would love to believe it was 1:45:12.320 --> 1:45:18.400 a deranged ancestor of Prince Charles, but no, you know, 1:45:18.520 --> 1:45:20.519 you bring up another good point there, which is the 1:45:20.640 --> 1:45:23.839 Mason's and I've I've heard them refer seen them referred 1:45:23.880 --> 1:45:26.040 to in a lot of this. And is that just 1:45:26.160 --> 1:45:31.880 based mostly from this, this royal theory or it mostly 1:45:32.000 --> 1:45:34.680 comes out of that. The whole thing came in well, 1:45:34.680 --> 1:45:36.080 first of all came up with it was Jack the 1:45:36.120 --> 1:45:38.479 Ripe of the Final Solution and it was a book 1:45:38.600 --> 1:45:42.439 by Stephen Knight, and Stephen Knight was based on a 1:45:42.520 --> 1:45:46.040 chatterman called Joseph Sicker to what the claim was that 1:45:47.040 --> 1:45:50.040 the Joseph sick had claimed that he was he was 1:45:50.120 --> 1:45:53.080 related in some way to it, and so he went 1:45:53.080 --> 1:45:56.120 and so he gave the theory to Stephen Knight. Stephen 1:45:56.200 --> 1:45:59.120 Knight and then developed the theory both on both of 1:45:59.160 --> 1:46:03.360 them and are dead. But it's it's it. I mean, 1:46:03.840 --> 1:46:06.720 it's wonderful to think that it's it's a government conspiracy, 1:46:06.800 --> 1:46:09.000 that the Mason's got involved, and that everyone did it. 1:46:09.560 --> 1:46:12.559 And of course people like people didn't like that type 1:46:12.600 --> 1:46:18.599 of conspiracy theory. But it's it's highly unlikely. But as 1:46:18.640 --> 1:46:21.720 I say, but the Masons being such a shadowy organization, 1:46:21.880 --> 1:46:24.680 you know that everyone's got this, They've got this mystique 1:46:24.680 --> 1:46:27.759 about them and all the rituals they perform and everything. 1:46:27.960 --> 1:46:29.880 So it's it's I mean, this is the whole process 1:46:30.000 --> 1:46:32.840 of murder. But I decree the Christopher Plumber film also 1:46:33.200 --> 1:46:36.479 the Front Health film as well. But let's say it's 1:46:36.600 --> 1:46:40.639 it's it's good entertainment, but as historical fact, it leaves 1:46:40.640 --> 1:46:43.400 a lot to be desired. But it is cool though, 1:46:43.439 --> 1:46:45.280 And if you could find a tire to like, say 1:46:45.520 --> 1:46:48.040 the Knights Templar and the Holy Grail, that would be 1:46:48.080 --> 1:46:50.720 even more awesome. How it's fantastic. I mean, it's all 1:46:50.760 --> 1:46:52.719 you need is that, you know, maybe have Princess Diana 1:46:52.840 --> 1:46:55.560 involved in it as well. Yeah, I'm gonna work on that. 1:46:55.880 --> 1:46:58.360 I'm gonna come and get Rolls Well involved, you know, 1:46:58.439 --> 1:47:05.000 get a few alien abductions and maybe having escaping on 1:47:05.040 --> 1:47:08.439 the Titanic, and you've done it so well. So anyway, 1:47:08.640 --> 1:47:13.880 I'm not convinced. Well, I I also have I have 1:47:14.080 --> 1:47:17.040 one other outlier that I liked that I wanted to 1:47:17.120 --> 1:47:22.240 bring up because there's actually some credence to it. You 1:47:22.360 --> 1:47:25.200 got to talk about the aliens, No, I'm not. We're 1:47:25.240 --> 1:47:27.679 gonna talk about a guy by the name of Carl 1:47:27.800 --> 1:47:36.840 fine Bomb. Okay, Carl fine Bomb. I'm not sure how 1:47:36.880 --> 1:47:42.840 to pronounces yeah, fining bomb. Okay. Well, anyway, Carl was 1:47:43.080 --> 1:47:47.960 executed in the electric chair on the twenty seventh of 1:47:48.200 --> 1:47:52.760 April eighteen nineties six for the brutal murder of a 1:47:52.840 --> 1:47:59.120 woman by the name of Julianna Hoffman. Carl murderer by 1:47:59.320 --> 1:48:04.200 slitting her throat. He was not able to do anything 1:48:04.240 --> 1:48:09.439 else because her son interrupted the murder and he jumped 1:48:09.439 --> 1:48:13.040 out a window onto the roof, and then Carl took 1:48:13.080 --> 1:48:16.760 off and they caught him. But here's the thing that's 1:48:16.840 --> 1:48:20.920 not his real name. We don't know. We don't know 1:48:21.080 --> 1:48:24.040 exactly what his name is. His name could be it 1:48:24.240 --> 1:48:27.760 was Anton or maybe Carl with a C or a 1:48:27.920 --> 1:48:34.920 k zon or zom or stro bomb like a stro bond, 1:48:35.400 --> 1:48:39.519 I don't know. He evidently changed his name at some point, 1:48:39.600 --> 1:48:41.840 but we don't know why. And evidently he did this 1:48:41.960 --> 1:48:47.320 on a regular basis. Where where did Well, this murder 1:48:47.520 --> 1:48:51.960 happened in the United States, so it wasn't in England. 1:48:52.439 --> 1:48:55.440 But he was a sailor and in the eighteen eighties 1:48:55.920 --> 1:48:59.519 he was you know, he had a merchant lifestyle, a 1:48:59.640 --> 1:49:06.680 marine her lifestyle, and his whereabouts aren't exactly clear. But 1:49:07.000 --> 1:49:11.639 what we know is that he supposedly could have been 1:49:11.720 --> 1:49:15.080 and would have been in the area in England at 1:49:15.120 --> 1:49:19.040 the time, in London. Uh. And then the other thing, 1:49:19.160 --> 1:49:22.640 and this is the what drew me to it. Okay, well, 1:49:22.680 --> 1:49:24.759 I said it had a lot of credence. It's actually 1:49:24.840 --> 1:49:28.680 pretty weak, but I like it anyway, is Uh. What 1:49:28.880 --> 1:49:33.360 we know is that after he was executed, as soon 1:49:33.479 --> 1:49:37.720 as his declaration of death was put out, his attorney, 1:49:38.320 --> 1:49:44.280 William Sanford Lawton, stated, I believe that Carl Feinnenbaum who 1:49:44.439 --> 1:49:47.120 you have just seen put to death in the electric chair, 1:49:47.600 --> 1:49:50.799 can easily be connected with the Jack the Ripper murders 1:49:50.840 --> 1:49:54.920 in Whitechapel. I will stake my professional reputation on that. 1:49:55.200 --> 1:49:58.040 If the police will trace this man's movements carefully for 1:49:58.120 --> 1:50:01.600 the last few years, there investigations will lead them to 1:50:01.760 --> 1:50:04.840 London and to White Chapel. But did he provide any 1:50:05.040 --> 1:50:11.479 evidence or of course not, of course not seeking attorney. Yeah, 1:50:11.600 --> 1:50:14.519 I actually I think that this guy was looking to 1:50:14.840 --> 1:50:19.439 cause a little media splash. But it is interesting that, 1:50:19.760 --> 1:50:22.960 you know it was. It wasn't just a quick slash. 1:50:23.160 --> 1:50:26.479 He really cut this lady's throat in a vicious manner 1:50:27.080 --> 1:50:30.559 while she was in bed, and we don't know where 1:50:30.680 --> 1:50:33.840 he was, and we don't know what he could have 1:50:33.920 --> 1:50:37.400 been doing that whole time. So he's just this ephemeral, 1:50:37.560 --> 1:50:41.160 mysterious person. Yeah, it could have been, But I mean, 1:50:41.280 --> 1:50:44.920 what the circumstances of this particular murder though, which it 1:50:45.120 --> 1:50:50.200 was The woman he murdered. Was she a prostitute? No? No, 1:50:50.520 --> 1:50:56.160 what how this whole thing went down? Is she was? 1:50:56.240 --> 1:50:58.360 I think it was New York Is where this took place. 1:50:59.120 --> 1:51:03.680 She needed some money, so she decided to rent out 1:51:03.760 --> 1:51:08.439 a room in her house and he was her first lodger, 1:51:09.240 --> 1:51:13.200 first and last. Yeah, it sounds like it without saying yeah, 1:51:13.760 --> 1:51:17.679 and within a day or three I if I remember 1:51:17.720 --> 1:51:20.840 the details correctly, then he committed the murder. He killed her, 1:51:20.960 --> 1:51:25.360 so he if it didn't take long. But it's just weird. 1:51:25.800 --> 1:51:31.439 I was thinking about but maybe not thinking that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 1:51:31.600 --> 1:51:36.320 so I'm thinking probably that it's possible, but no reason 1:51:36.400 --> 1:51:39.400 to really believe. So so yeah, no, no, I I 1:51:39.600 --> 1:51:42.840 completely agree with you on there. Uh. And you know, 1:51:42.960 --> 1:51:45.200 there's the issue of and one of the things that 1:51:45.320 --> 1:51:47.880 was brought up was that it potentially if this guy 1:51:48.080 --> 1:51:54.040 wasn't it, it's but possible that the ripper was a sailor, 1:51:55.000 --> 1:51:58.120 would explain why he was out of town for weeks 1:51:58.200 --> 1:52:01.599 on end and the murders didn't happened. But my issue 1:52:01.680 --> 1:52:04.519 with that is why don't we hear about these kind 1:52:04.600 --> 1:52:09.679 of grizzly murders in other ports of call, even places 1:52:09.720 --> 1:52:12.680 that aren't super super populated. You would think that there 1:52:12.680 --> 1:52:15.600 would be record of a prostitute or a woman with 1:52:15.760 --> 1:52:19.720 her throat slit and her organs pulled out. There'd be some. 1:52:21.640 --> 1:52:25.960 It was definitely like a widely publicized thing too. I mean, 1:52:26.040 --> 1:52:29.320 you know, it wasn't just like, oh you only know 1:52:29.400 --> 1:52:32.040 about this in White Chaplain in London. No, the whole 1:52:32.120 --> 1:52:34.440 world was looking for this guy. They were all fascinated 1:52:34.520 --> 1:52:38.160 by him, and he was a new sensation worldwide. So 1:52:38.360 --> 1:52:41.080 you know, if one woman showed up with something like 1:52:41.200 --> 1:52:43.360 that in any other port of call, it would have 1:52:43.400 --> 1:52:45.920 set off alarm bells. I mean, it just would have. Um, 1:52:46.840 --> 1:52:49.280 it's absolutely true, although you know it might be it 1:52:49.400 --> 1:52:52.000 might be also the fact that he was a sailor, 1:52:52.240 --> 1:52:56.120 but perhaps he was also like a racist, like say, 1:52:56.160 --> 1:52:59.000 he was a German who hated the Brits, so he 1:52:59.120 --> 1:53:02.120 did a special isles to their bodies. But when he 1:53:02.240 --> 1:53:04.840 was like often you know, other other ports, he didn't 1:53:04.920 --> 1:53:09.360 he stabbed people to death, but didn't didn't sad. Yeah, 1:53:09.680 --> 1:53:12.959 it's possible something like that too. Yeah, No, that's that's possible. 1:53:13.160 --> 1:53:16.479 And and the big mystery about this, this whole Jack 1:53:16.560 --> 1:53:21.080 the Ripper story, is that we have this time frame 1:53:21.200 --> 1:53:25.120 where the canonical five are murdered, very short time frame, 1:53:25.360 --> 1:53:28.840 and then it stops. Yeah, and it's a little weird 1:53:29.080 --> 1:53:33.760 as to why it possibly could have stopped. And there's 1:53:33.840 --> 1:53:37.080 theories about, well, he was caught and he was committed 1:53:37.479 --> 1:53:42.320 or he committed suicide or anything like that. And and 1:53:42.520 --> 1:53:46.360 we we did put that question to Richard because we 1:53:46.479 --> 1:53:50.320 wanted to know, because he's done so much research on it, 1:53:50.760 --> 1:53:55.160 why he thought they just stopped. So suddenly the can 1:53:55.520 --> 1:53:58.679 have been there's there's a handful of reasons for the murders, 1:53:58.720 --> 1:54:00.599 because someone like this doesn't get fed up and think, 1:54:00.640 --> 1:54:02.160 while I enjoyed that, but I think I'm going to 1:54:02.200 --> 1:54:07.560 collect stamps. Now, something stopped him killing that either he 1:54:07.680 --> 1:54:10.240 got caught, he might have died. So he could have 1:54:10.320 --> 1:54:12.479 died if if I say, if he had been given 1:54:12.520 --> 1:54:14.160 a disease, he could have he could have died of 1:54:14.240 --> 1:54:18.120 that disease. He could have committed suicide. He could have 1:54:18.200 --> 1:54:21.280 been with his family who realized what had happened, and 1:54:21.320 --> 1:54:23.920 so they put him into a private assignment. That's a possibility. 1:54:24.320 --> 1:54:27.120 Now the possibilities he went somewhere else, he moved and 1:54:27.439 --> 1:54:30.920 continued killing, and they didn't make the connecting. You know, 1:54:31.040 --> 1:54:33.040 they didn't make the connection between the two, which is 1:54:33.080 --> 1:54:35.440 highly unlikely because they were looking for him all over 1:54:35.480 --> 1:54:37.600 the world. I mean, there's everyone the world over knew 1:54:37.600 --> 1:54:39.680 about these killings. So if he had gone somewhere else, 1:54:40.120 --> 1:54:42.880 the connection would have been made. The other possibilities the 1:54:42.880 --> 1:54:45.560 police did catch their man, whether they knew it was 1:54:45.600 --> 1:54:48.080 the ripper, It's possible he was arrested for another crime, 1:54:48.680 --> 1:54:51.080 went into it, went into a prison and they didn't 1:54:51.120 --> 1:54:53.560 realize who they got. Yeah, I mean, there's there's all 1:54:53.600 --> 1:54:56.040 sorts of there's all sorts of suspects who came into 1:54:56.080 --> 1:54:57.960 the area left because the other thing about the area 1:54:58.080 --> 1:55:00.160 was because it was close to the docks, so you 1:55:00.240 --> 1:55:04.840 did have a lot of each of ships shipping coming 1:55:04.880 --> 1:55:07.480 into the port of London very close to the doctor. 1:55:07.520 --> 1:55:09.680 He had foreign sailors coming in left, right and center, 1:55:10.280 --> 1:55:15.360 and you had say one of the reasons for the gaps. 1:55:15.680 --> 1:55:17.640 All the theory is that the reason for the gaps 1:55:17.760 --> 1:55:19.640 is because it could have been someone on a ship 1:55:19.760 --> 1:55:22.240 who was out of London for a period of time 1:55:22.520 --> 1:55:25.800 and then came back again and commenced murdering. The other 1:55:26.000 --> 1:55:28.800 interesting one is that the famous the Dr Tumblety, the 1:55:28.840 --> 1:55:32.880 American who's h who was arrested for acts of gross 1:55:32.920 --> 1:55:38.160 indecency and seems to have been a quite a favor 1:55:38.280 --> 1:55:41.400 favored suspect and he skipped bail when he was released 1:55:41.440 --> 1:55:43.480 from police custody. He they said, you're not going to 1:55:43.560 --> 1:55:45.240 run off are He said, no, no, no, and then 1:55:45.280 --> 1:55:48.360 he skipped bail and went to America where he was. 1:55:48.800 --> 1:55:53.280 Now the interesting about tumble Tears that Dr tumblet everybody 1:55:53.360 --> 1:55:55.520 knew where he was. The reporters were staking at his 1:55:55.600 --> 1:55:59.280 house in New York, and Inspector burn at NYPD actually 1:55:59.320 --> 1:56:01.600 had him on the valence and the reporters in America 1:56:01.640 --> 1:56:05.440 were going to him and saying, you know, in America 1:56:05.480 --> 1:56:07.640 they seem to have known that he was suspected for 1:56:07.680 --> 1:56:10.560 the Whitechapel murders, and they said, you know, is he 1:56:10.600 --> 1:56:12.000 going to go back? And he said, now, he said, 1:56:12.000 --> 1:56:14.680 what tumbled he is wanted for is not extracitable, So 1:56:14.760 --> 1:56:17.040 he couldn't have been extraunited for what he had done, 1:56:17.440 --> 1:56:19.600 which seems to have been he actually got caught up 1:56:19.680 --> 1:56:21.520 that there was this act of gross and decency with 1:56:21.680 --> 1:56:24.600 several men and that that's what he'd done, and that 1:56:24.640 --> 1:56:26.480 could he couldn't have been expracited for that. But he 1:56:26.760 --> 1:56:28.400 obviously if he had been a murder, he would have 1:56:28.440 --> 1:56:32.920 been extradited. So obviously NYPD and the London police didn't 1:56:32.920 --> 1:56:35.800 seem to think he was the Ripper. A lot of 1:56:35.840 --> 1:56:37.839 people think that he went to America and then disappeared, 1:56:37.880 --> 1:56:44.440 which is just not true. So this is awful what 1:56:45.320 --> 1:56:48.520 Jackie Ripper, just like, in general, Jackie Ripper is pretty awful. 1:56:48.520 --> 1:56:51.440 Are you gonna say he's misunderstood? No, I mean it's 1:56:51.520 --> 1:56:53.840 like an awful story. And I guess it like rounds 1:56:53.840 --> 1:56:57.200 out our October and I'm kind of honestly happy that 1:56:57.280 --> 1:57:00.240 we're time with October. Now we can go do like 1:57:00.320 --> 1:57:04.280 really interesting stuff, not creepy grizzly yeah, not weird creepy 1:57:04.320 --> 1:57:06.840 grizzly stuff. But I think, you know, we don't. I 1:57:06.880 --> 1:57:08.760 don't think we need to talk about theories. I think 1:57:08.800 --> 1:57:13.760 that's out there well, and we've talked about obviously the 1:57:13.840 --> 1:57:17.919 stuff that we kind of like, and we obviously curated 1:57:17.960 --> 1:57:21.080 this episode all so I don't think we need to. 1:57:21.160 --> 1:57:23.000 I mean, I think we're pretty good. Would you guys 1:57:23.040 --> 1:57:29.520 think we're good? Yeah, I think we're there. We kid, 1:57:31.760 --> 1:57:33.440 I can't blame this one on that, So I guess 1:57:33.600 --> 1:57:36.800 you know, there will be probably a lot of links 1:57:37.080 --> 1:57:40.839 on our web, which is um of course, as always 1:57:40.920 --> 1:57:44.800 thinking Sideways podcast dot com. And by the way, of course, 1:57:45.080 --> 1:57:46.600 you know as you said, all the links are gonna 1:57:46.600 --> 1:57:51.000 be on there. We will have the link to Richard's 1:57:51.080 --> 1:57:55.280 website to company on there. And if you are if 1:57:55.320 --> 1:57:58.200 you're gonna be in in London, if you are in 1:57:58.320 --> 1:58:02.960 London and you are the tour, I've been on ripper 1:58:03.000 --> 1:58:07.080 tours and they're awesome. Yeah, those tours are fantastic and 1:58:07.280 --> 1:58:09.760 you really get to see the neighborhood and you really 1:58:09.840 --> 1:58:12.520 get to see it from the street and it really 1:58:12.720 --> 1:58:15.280 is awesome. And by the way, that doesn't doesn't rich 1:58:15.360 --> 1:58:19.160 or have a book coming out? I believe, Well, Richard 1:58:19.240 --> 1:58:21.800 has written two books, and I didn't know that he 1:58:21.920 --> 1:58:27.000 had a third. Okay, well, okay, probably on his website. Sorry, 1:58:27.080 --> 1:58:30.280 we were way off traffic. The other place you could 1:58:30.720 --> 1:58:33.440 be listening to us as iTunes, you probably are. If 1:58:33.520 --> 1:58:35.600 you are, feel free to leave us a comment in 1:58:35.640 --> 1:58:42.880 a rating. As always, we love that you know, we 1:58:43.280 --> 1:58:45.680 drop our shows every Thursday, so if it's Thursday and 1:58:45.720 --> 1:58:47.520 you realize you haven't downloaded it, you can stream a 1:58:47.600 --> 1:58:51.920 straight from Stitcher. It's always a good thing. We've also 1:58:52.160 --> 1:58:55.120 added a couple of others we have, Yeah, we've We've 1:58:55.200 --> 1:58:58.320 added tune in dot com. So we're on there. Now, 1:58:59.320 --> 1:59:02.120 I know that we are in a couple of the 1:59:02.320 --> 1:59:06.440 apps that are really popular, that the podcast apps for 1:59:06.520 --> 1:59:09.000 the iOS and the Android we've gotten on their list 1:59:09.800 --> 1:59:14.200 Fangled apps. Yeah things, We're in a bunch of places. Now. 1:59:14.520 --> 1:59:17.640 Check the website. It lists everywhere that we're available for 1:59:17.720 --> 1:59:20.800 downloads and streaming. Yeah. And you know the other place 1:59:20.880 --> 1:59:24.200 you can find us as Facebook. Um, there's a group 1:59:24.640 --> 1:59:28.320 and page. You can like us and join the group. 1:59:28.960 --> 1:59:34.120 Some good conversations happening there. Um. We also, as of 1:59:34.280 --> 1:59:40.120 this week, are on Twitter. Find us, find us, and 1:59:40.200 --> 1:59:42.880 follow us, and we'll figure out how to use this Twitter. Yeah. 1:59:43.080 --> 1:59:45.840 I'm the youngest one in this room, and I'm like, 1:59:46.080 --> 1:59:48.040 don't know totally how to use it. So we're going 1:59:48.080 --> 1:59:58.680 to figure it out with text messaging services yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. 1:59:59.040 --> 2:00:02.200 And other than that, I don't know, but yeah. And 2:00:02.560 --> 2:00:06.600 then you can always send us an email that email addresses. Again, 2:00:06.960 --> 2:00:11.240 as always Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. We 2:00:11.480 --> 2:00:13.720 have a couple of emails that we should be reading, 2:00:14.240 --> 2:00:17.120 but this show is like two and a half hours long, 2:00:17.160 --> 2:00:19.360 so we're gonna go ahead and postpone those for just 2:00:19.560 --> 2:00:22.240 a couple of weeks. I'm sorry about that whoever, you know, 2:00:22.400 --> 2:00:25.440 we replied to you, I promise we'll read you soon. 2:00:26.720 --> 2:00:29.000 It's two and a half hours is too long. So 2:00:29.160 --> 2:00:35.240 with that, I say good night by everybody to Lou 2:00:36.480 --> 2:00:48.840 George Clinty. No, I think I think we've thinking that. 2:00:49.200 --> 2:00:52.080 I think we've solved the mystery. I think we have now. 2:00:52.120 --> 2:00:54.520 Actually I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you who my suspect is. 2:00:56.320 --> 2:00:59.160 Have you noticed he made a Ripper movie number one, 2:01:00.000 --> 2:01:05.360 and you know he doesn't seem to age. Yeah, I 2:01:05.440 --> 2:01:07.480 think I think, Yeah, I think John Johnny Depp is 2:01:07.520 --> 2:01:09.960 a I mean I was used to say I think 2:01:10.000 --> 2:01:15.480 it was Queen Victoria because in Colombo, well and that 2:01:16.040 --> 2:01:19.000 was getting involved. Yeah, well, you knowiced that in Pirates 2:01:19.040 --> 2:01:20.880 of the Caribbean and all the sequels, he seems to 2:01:20.920 --> 2:01:23.480 be very proficient with the play and he was addicting. 2:01:23.560 --> 2:01:27.680 His addicted to absent wasn't as well, Yeah, exactly was. 2:01:27.800 --> 2:01:29.800 It was board Hales and his brain and made him 2:01:29.800 --> 2:01:32.480 go insane. And yeah, so there you go, it's Johnny Depp. 2:01:33.640 --> 2:01:37.080 Johnny Depp done it. In fact, he certainly murdered Abiline's 2:01:37.080 --> 2:01:41.480 reputation in the film, because Abiline was nothing like Johnny Depp. Yeah, 2:01:41.840 --> 2:01:46.320 probably it's Abiline is the character who Johnny Depp played 2:01:46.360 --> 2:01:49.120 in the film. But it's it's very very very very 2:01:49.240 --> 2:01:52.600 very very very very very very very very loosely based 2:01:52.680 --> 2:01:55.760 on a BLINEAOK, a little artistic license with that one, 2:01:56.600 --> 2:01:59.360 but then again, it's a great film. It's it's you know, 2:01:59.440 --> 2:02:02.240 it's it's really atmospheric. And what they were setting out 2:02:02.280 --> 2:02:04.240 to do, they weren't setting out to make a documentary. 2:02:04.240 --> 2:02:06.560 They were setting out to make, you know, a good 2:02:06.600 --> 2:02:09.360 horror film. And I think they stated there they did 2:02:09.360 --> 2:02:11.720 a pretty good job indeed, And how can you not 2:02:11.800 --> 2:02:13.640 make a great horror film when you've got the actual 2:02:13.760 --> 2:02:15.320 Jack the Rippers starring in it.