Speaker 1: Well hi, and welcome back to the podcast. If you've
Speaker 1: been here before, if this is your first time, welcome, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm Steve as always, I'm joined by Devin Joe and
Speaker 1: this is thinking Sideways and ladies and gentlemen. Happy Halloween October.
Speaker 1: It is, it is, and this is this is the
Speaker 1: final show of our Halloween sweet I know, a couple
Speaker 1: of weeks back, I gave a little bit of a
Speaker 1: teaser and didn't tell anybody what we were doing, But
Speaker 1: that's because we're doing it now. Yeah, and what we're
Speaker 1: gonna look into is something that a lot and I
Speaker 1: mean a lot of people have requested that we cover it.
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper, I gotta tell you too. There was
Speaker 1: a lot of personal sacrifice for me because in researching this,
Speaker 1: I was constantly having to change my underwear because it's scary.
Speaker 1: It's a scary story. It is. Yeah, although luckily I'm
Speaker 1: not a prostitute, so it seems like you're kind of
Speaker 1: like if you're not a prostitute, you're not probably get
Speaker 1: also like not in like London. Also it's been like
Speaker 1: more than a years. Yeah, probably dead, might or might
Speaker 1: not be dead. You never know. But it seemed seemed
Speaker 1: like an appropriate story to to do for Halloween. I
Speaker 1: imagine that most everybody is probably familiar with the story
Speaker 1: of Jack the Ripper, but for those who don't know
Speaker 1: it as well as others, were going to go ahead,
Speaker 1: We're going to start at the beginning, and then we're
Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and walk our way through the case.
Speaker 1: And there's some things that I wasn't aware of until
Speaker 1: I've done the research, and so I think there's a
Speaker 1: lot of colonels of really interesting things that we're going
Speaker 1: to bring up. You know, I gotta be honest, I
Speaker 1: haven't been super familiar with the Jack the Ripper story.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I kind of knew it existed,
Speaker 1: but like I, despite maybe some indications, don't necessarily love
Speaker 1: like horror movies or stuff like that. So I've never
Speaker 1: liked seen any of the movies that we may reference.
Speaker 1: I didn't really ever investigate the whole Jack the Ripper thing.
Speaker 1: So this has been like a really really interesting thing
Speaker 1: to be researching because I literally had like no frame
Speaker 1: of reference for this. So I would fall into the
Speaker 1: category of people who benefit greatly from a whole lot
Speaker 1: of explanation. Well, and the nice thing is we we
Speaker 1: realized early on that this was such a big story
Speaker 1: that we probably couldn't and shouldn't tackle it on our own.
Speaker 1: So what we did is we got a little help
Speaker 1: and we reached out and we were lucky enough to
Speaker 1: spend some time talking with a gentleman by the name
Speaker 1: of Richard Jones, and we we should probab Just let's here,
Speaker 1: let's have Richard introduced himself. Yeah, I'm Richard Jones from
Speaker 1: the Jacketer patern in London, which is rippert dot com.
Speaker 1: I'm a jacket guide and I've also written two books
Speaker 1: on Jack the Ripper and made three documentaries on Jack
Speaker 1: the Ripper. All right, well let's start with London itself.
Speaker 1: The time frame we're working in is literally just that
Speaker 1: year pretty much pretty much just pretty short time span
Speaker 1: of like, for example, the Acts of New Orleans that
Speaker 1: was over eighteen months. Yeah, this is a very very
Speaker 1: compressed time frame. And to talk about I know, this
Speaker 1: is one of the things that you you were going
Speaker 1: to take on, Joe, was to kind of tell us
Speaker 1: a little bit about London at the time. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And of course, you know, you can get a lot
Speaker 1: of you can get a lot of background an atmosphere,
Speaker 1: you know, Sherlott Colins. The series started I think the
Speaker 1: year before The Ripper started, and you can get a
Speaker 1: lot of the atmosphere of London from eating those those
Speaker 1: books and those stories and which were which are great,
Speaker 1: by the way, I love those things when I was
Speaker 1: a kid. Um. But and let me tell you about
Speaker 1: the specific neighborhood. These were called the White Chapel murders.
Speaker 1: And actually the White Chapel murders were eleven murders, of
Speaker 1: which only about five are actually directly attributed to the Ripper.
Speaker 1: So the neighborhood of White Chapel, let me talk about
Speaker 1: it a little bit, was a neighborhood in the London
Speaker 1: in London's East End, and the East End by the
Speaker 1: late sixteenth early seventeenth century had attracted a lot of
Speaker 1: industrial development, a lot of stuff that was kind of
Speaker 1: smell a like foundries, slaughter houses, tanneries, breweries, and lots
Speaker 1: of people were there because back in those days, of course,
Speaker 1: we didn't have cars and freeways in suburbs, so you
Speaker 1: had to live near where you worked, so there were
Speaker 1: lots of people there. And England at this time, beginning
Speaker 1: about the seventeenth century started a period of urbanization where
Speaker 1: people were leaving the countryside and walking to the cities.
Speaker 1: And you see similar phenomenon today if you go to
Speaker 1: places like South Paulo, Brazil, same thing, people who have
Speaker 1: just flocked to the city and they're living in hideous slums.
Speaker 1: So that same thing happened back in England at that time.
Speaker 1: This and this lasted until the mid nineteenth century. Uh.
Speaker 1: And since things like foundries, breweries and tanneries and slaughter
Speaker 1: houses tend to smell really bad, that kept rents down.
Speaker 1: So if you're poor and from refreshing and from the countryside,
Speaker 1: you're gonna gravitate towards the east end. And of course
Speaker 1: that increased the poverty and over crowding that already existed
Speaker 1: there even more. Uh in the Victorian Area era from
Speaker 1: about eighteen forty onwards. It was made even worse by immigration,
Speaker 1: mostly from Ireland and Eastern Europe. And so these slums
Speaker 1: are getting extremely crowded. Impact And by the way, I
Speaker 1: read a book about conditions in Britain at this time.
Speaker 1: It's called Capitalism in the Story is by Friedrich Hayak.
Speaker 1: Very good book and part of the reason for that
Speaker 1: is that the Napoleonic Wars and stuff. There have been
Speaker 1: massive shortages of building materials and stuff like that because
Speaker 1: of the war, and so substandard housing was kind of
Speaker 1: the norm, and window was crowded. Brewing him were very
Speaker 1: much the norm. Anyway. Prostitution was endemic in this area.
Speaker 1: In Metropolitan Police estimated that there were sixty two brothels
Speaker 1: and roughly twelve hundred prostitutes in White Chapel alone, which
Speaker 1: is a very small area. Yeah, it's not that big
Speaker 1: of a neighborhood. Yeah, and that's only part of the
Speaker 1: East End. Also, Jack London, you guys have heard of
Speaker 1: Jack London, called the Wild and all that stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he decided to go undercover in nineteen o two. And
Speaker 1: of course this is fourteen years after the murders, but
Speaker 1: still I don't think things have changed probably all that
Speaker 1: much in that time. So he went undercover in the
Speaker 1: East End and put out old, ragged clothes and lived
Speaker 1: among the poor for three or four months apparently, And
Speaker 1: he actually slept in the streets and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, he had he had an out. I mean
Speaker 1: he had money, so he could actually leave and go
Speaker 1: get a nice hotel room and take a shower or
Speaker 1: something like that. But yeah, but he's spent time in
Speaker 1: there and he and he and he took up and
Speaker 1: talked to a lot with a lot of people. And
Speaker 1: I've been reading his book about it. He wrote a
Speaker 1: book about it called The People of the Abyss, which
Speaker 1: I am not actually through with yet. Unfortunate. I think
Speaker 1: it's interesting Joe did all his research by reading books. Yea, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: The People of the Abyss. But anyway, I recommend it,
Speaker 1: Like I said, I haven't finished it yet, but it's
Speaker 1: it's it's good reading so far. But here's how he
Speaker 1: describes his first foray in there. It's and it's funny.
Speaker 1: We read the book. He got to London and he's
Speaker 1: in the better part of London. He's saying, Oh, I
Speaker 1: want to go to the East End. Everybody says, like,
Speaker 1: why the hell would you want to go there? He
Speaker 1: really seriously, he gets so he gets this cabby, this
Speaker 1: guy with a handsome, you know, horse drawn cab or thing,
Speaker 1: and he says, I want to go to the East
Speaker 1: End and this guy saying, where do you want to
Speaker 1: go there? And I just want to go there, says why,
Speaker 1: and finally talks this guy says, basically, I want to go.
Speaker 1: I want to go to the East End, and I
Speaker 1: want to go find a second hand store where I
Speaker 1: can buy some radial clothes. And so they travel along
Speaker 1: until they find one of those. And here's this description
Speaker 1: of his first foray into the East End. Nowhere in
Speaker 1: the streets of London may want to escape the site
Speaker 1: of abject poverty. While five minutes walked from almost any
Speaker 1: point will bring one to a slum. But the region
Speaker 1: my handsome was now penetrating was one unending slum. The
Speaker 1: streets were filled with a new and different race of people,
Speaker 1: short of stature, and a wretched or beer sodden appearance.
Speaker 1: Here and there larch a drunken man or woman in
Speaker 1: the air was obscene with sounds of jangling and squabbling.
Speaker 1: At a market tottery, old men and women were searching
Speaker 1: in the garbage thrown in the mud for rotten potatoes,
Speaker 1: beans and vegetables. Well. Little children clustered like flies around
Speaker 1: a festering mass of fruit, thrusting their arms to the
Speaker 1: shoulders into the liquid corruption and drawing forth morsels but
Speaker 1: partially decayed, which they devoured on the spot. I know,
Speaker 1: I know, that's life according to Jack London in the
Speaker 1: East End. So in other words, Whitechapel was an armpit
Speaker 1: and I looked at it just today. I went out
Speaker 1: on Google street View and I cruised around. You ever
Speaker 1: cruise around the streets. I've actually been there, and it's
Speaker 1: it's not it's not as bad as it's not a
Speaker 1: bad place. It's very busy and it's very tight quarters
Speaker 1: compared to what we're used to here in the States. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's not. It's not a slummy joint, but it buildings.
Speaker 1: But no, it's not Hell on Earth by any means.
Speaker 1: It's like it's come up a lot in the world
Speaker 1: since then. And Richard has some really good points about
Speaker 1: the area at the time as well, And since he
Speaker 1: actually lives in a lot and he probably has a
Speaker 1: lot more knowledge of it than you. Yeah, so let's
Speaker 1: let's go ahead and have here his description White Chapel.
Speaker 1: White Chapel got a bad rap at the time. I mean,
Speaker 1: there were parts of White Chapel that were horrible slums,
Speaker 1: but there were parts of White Chapel that were as
Speaker 1: good as any other parts of London. And that London
Speaker 1: had worst slums than Whitechapel, but it was White Chapel
Speaker 1: largely because of the Ripper murders. White Chapel got the
Speaker 1: press coverage, and so today when we tend to think
Speaker 1: of slum in London, we tend to focus on that area.
Speaker 1: But there were parts of Merrily Bone, parts of notting Hill,
Speaker 1: even parts of the City of London not too long
Speaker 1: before the Ripper murder which were just as bad and
Speaker 1: in some cases even worse. But as I say, because
Speaker 1: of the press coverage, the history's focus tends to be
Speaker 1: now on Whitechapel and the East end of London as
Speaker 1: a whole got the You've got the agricultural revolution and
Speaker 1: throw people off the lands, I mean this this standard,
Speaker 1: but then you've got unemployment in it in the farmlands
Speaker 1: of Essex and everywhere. You'd had the Irish potato famine,
Speaker 1: so you've got the people coming over the potato famine.
Speaker 1: Then it'll say programs, the Jewish eystated, and really the
Speaker 1: the whole I mean London was well, it was the
Speaker 1: wealthiest capital city in the world, as the biggest port
Speaker 1: in the world as well, so it was a massive place.
Speaker 1: But right on the doorstep of the City of London
Speaker 1: the wealthiest square mile on Earth. You had these people
Speaker 1: living in abject poverty conditions crammed into common lodging houses
Speaker 1: and it didn't go unnoticed by a lot of people. Well,
Speaker 1: so you probably want to talk about the murders. Huh, Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I wish probably get into the murder problems. No, I
Speaker 1: feel like the murders aren't even like the bulk of
Speaker 1: this story right now. I think we need to talk
Speaker 1: about the victims. They're definitely important. And when you read
Speaker 1: about this story, you're gonna hear about the canonical five
Speaker 1: and those are the five main victims, and Joe kind
Speaker 1: of touched on that a little bit in the beginning.
Speaker 1: There are there's talk that there were other victims that
Speaker 1: could have been ripper victims that aren't directly attributed to him,
Speaker 1: and we're actually going to start out with one of
Speaker 1: those victims first. Yeah, that's the thing about it. It's
Speaker 1: it's really hard to say because it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: you're living in a slum and people tend to stab
Speaker 1: each other death and the slums a lot, so yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: they do. So the first person that we're gonna talk about,
Speaker 1: her name is Martha tabram I. Believe it's how you
Speaker 1: pronounced her last name, Taban. She was thirty nine years old,
Speaker 1: and like a lot of the women that we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about, she'd fallen on hard times. Uh. In
Speaker 1: eighteen seventy five, her husband leaves her for her quote
Speaker 1: unquote love of the drink. For thirteen years, she's with
Speaker 1: another man. Uh he evidently used to sell trinkets, and
Speaker 1: then eventually he uh he leaves her, and she doesn't
Speaker 1: know what to do, so she kind of turns to
Speaker 1: prostitution is a way to get by. And I guess
Speaker 1: I'll just mention, you know, it's gonna start to sound
Speaker 1: a little repetitive when do we start talking about the
Speaker 1: history of these The story pretty much goes for all
Speaker 1: of these women, they had a husband who left them
Speaker 1: or died. They were with a man for a little while,
Speaker 1: that person left them, they had to turn to prostitution.
Speaker 1: But also they were drunks, but they had to turn
Speaker 1: to prostitution, and because of that things maybe went a
Speaker 1: little downhill. These are all these are all I think,
Speaker 1: really sad stories, you know, I mean, in their searching.
Speaker 1: A couple of these victims, it's like their lives really
Speaker 1: could have turned out a lot better. Unfortunately, alcohol was not.
Speaker 1: I'm not crustating against alcohology, you know, I love me
Speaker 1: my beer, but but yeah, and it didn't serve them well.
Speaker 1: I think another point to make is, I can't remember
Speaker 1: the exact phrase that was used, but not all of
Speaker 1: them were what you would say called a full time prostitute.
Speaker 1: They would turn to it in times of desperation. It
Speaker 1: wasn't as if they were out working the streets all
Speaker 1: the time. A lot of them did other little things
Speaker 1: to try to make money. But when money was short
Speaker 1: and you needed a couple extra shilling, there was there
Speaker 1: was an answer. Um. And Martha here was kind of
Speaker 1: that way. She was at a full time prostitute. But
Speaker 1: on the sixth of August she was seen out and
Speaker 1: about with another prostitute whose nickname was Pearley Paul. They
Speaker 1: all had, They all had great nicknames. They really did.
Speaker 1: Uh And these ladies evidently they were partying with a
Speaker 1: couple of soldiers or maybe they were sailors, It's unclear.
Speaker 1: And around midnight they parted ways, and Peary went with
Speaker 1: one man one way, and Martha went with the other
Speaker 1: in the other direction. Martha took the gentleman that she
Speaker 1: was with, if she was with a gentleman, because again
Speaker 1: we're not positive, into an alley of a location known
Speaker 1: as George Yard. And I think that this is probably
Speaker 1: a good place to stop real fast and explain if
Speaker 1: anybody who hasn't been to London. It's not a grid,
Speaker 1: it's not square blocks. It is full of tiny little
Speaker 1: alleyways and they cut in between and they twist and
Speaker 1: they turned, so there's lots of dead ends and dark
Speaker 1: places for business to happen, if you know what I
Speaker 1: mean by wink wink business. So that's what she was doing.
Speaker 1: She was going into one of these dark alleys. I
Speaker 1: was gonna say, by the way, and I've never driven
Speaker 1: in London. I've always been on foot there and had
Speaker 1: been there that much. But it's like I would hate
Speaker 1: to drive in that town. Holy crap. Oh, it's it's insane,
Speaker 1: absolutely insane. But back then, Martha's body was officially found
Speaker 1: at four five on the seventh of August, five in
Speaker 1: the morning, at the entry of one of the buildings
Speaker 1: in George Yard. Evidently there was several buildings. Sounds like
Speaker 1: it was kind of a courtyard. But I'm not positive.
Speaker 1: Several people in the night had come home and gone
Speaker 1: through the entry and upstairs and that had come back down.
Speaker 1: None of them saw her body. It wasn't until a
Speaker 1: man by the name of John Reeves was leaving in
Speaker 1: the morning and he came down the stairs and he
Speaker 1: realized that there was a body laying in the entry
Speaker 1: and it was in a puddle of blood. And uh,
Speaker 1: this was four forty five in the morning. There were
Speaker 1: reports of people coming in at two o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1: Somebody left I think like to thirty or three. They
Speaker 1: didn't see her. So the window for where how she
Speaker 1: could have when she could have got there is pretty narrow.
Speaker 1: But again, this is accounts that are over a hundred
Speaker 1: and thirty years old. Yeah, from people who were likely
Speaker 1: drunk at the time, right, and who are used to
Speaker 1: the first thing in the morning, you're not really paying
Speaker 1: attention it it's dark. You gotta remember, there's no lighting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you're also used to people like maybe being passed
Speaker 1: out in your stup or whatever that you know, you
Speaker 1: would probably say, I mean, I didn't see it. I
Speaker 1: didn't recognize it as a corpse, but yeah, there was
Speaker 1: like a body I had to step over versus like, no,
Speaker 1: there was nothing there. It's probably worth remembering too that
Speaker 1: this is London eight and they didn't have street lights
Speaker 1: like we have today. It was freaking dark out, very dark,
Speaker 1: very dark. I mean I was there at night and
Speaker 1: even with modern lighting you could do one of those
Speaker 1: alleys and it's freaking dark. The medical examiner showed up
Speaker 1: at five thirty in the morning and had placed the
Speaker 1: time of death at somewhere between two thirty to two
Speaker 1: forty five in the morning. Now this isn't modern forensics.
Speaker 1: It wasn't as if they were, you know, using a
Speaker 1: thermometer to check the body temperature or doing it had
Speaker 1: an accurate judge of lividity things like that. You know,
Speaker 1: this is kind of guesswork. Yeah, it was. It was
Speaker 1: c s I. London was kind of crude at that time.
Speaker 1: It was very crude. Well, the way she was killed
Speaker 1: was extremely savage. She was stabbed thirty nine times. Let's see,
Speaker 1: there was five wounds in her left long, two in
Speaker 1: her right, one wound in her heart, five wounds in
Speaker 1: her liver, two in her spleen, and six in her stomach.
Speaker 1: They weren't able to identify which was like the first. No,
Speaker 1: they couldn't tell which was first. But the weird thing
Speaker 1: is that all of these wounds appeared to have come
Speaker 1: from a pen knife except for one, and that was
Speaker 1: the one that pierced her stern um. And they said
Speaker 1: it was probably a bayonet or a large dagger. And
Speaker 1: the bayonet made him think that it played into Remember
Speaker 1: we said that she was supposedly with some soldiers. Soldier
Speaker 1: would have a bayonnet. I believe that this one was
Speaker 1: I think attributed to gang violence. Correct. They think it
Speaker 1: might have been, but it's it just was I never
Speaker 1: got a clear read. It sounds like, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: it sounds like to me, somebody stabbed her a bunch
Speaker 1: of times and she didn't go quite go down because
Speaker 1: she was stabbed with a little bitty knife. And then
Speaker 1: finally somebody else steps in and says, okay, could they
Speaker 1: go our time and hit you with the big bayonet.
Speaker 1: So that's interesting because then I felt it would have
Speaker 1: gone the other way that like some soldiers were drunk
Speaker 1: accidentally like stand from the band for whatever reason. And
Speaker 1: then was like, oh crap, uh, this seems like something
Speaker 1: that could happen in the the you know, in white chapels, Like,
Speaker 1: here's a pen knife, I'll just STAB's not going to
Speaker 1: cover it up, you know sort of That's where my
Speaker 1: mind goes with, that's interesting that we're opposite. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I'm thinking that I'm thinking to set somebody
Speaker 1: decided that this is not working out, let's go for
Speaker 1: the big downs here. But how old was she? She
Speaker 1: was thirty ninety nine stabs. No, that is not necessarily
Speaker 1: Insignificand well, no, that's true, But they also don't This
Speaker 1: is one of the reasons that she's considered an outlier
Speaker 1: and they don't think that she was one of the
Speaker 1: ripper victims. Is the m O is not the same evolved.
Speaker 1: One of the things that happened in every ripper killing
Speaker 1: was the throat was cut and hers was not, and
Speaker 1: they and they stabbed her, didn't They didn't rip her
Speaker 1: open the way corre she was just stabbed to do.
Speaker 1: She wasn't open. But we're going to get into that.
Speaker 1: I get one just like it was one final Like
Speaker 1: I'm right that like it wasn't an abandoned area. There
Speaker 1: are a bunch of people sleeping around. If you were
Speaker 1: going to like stab a lady thirty nine times whatever
Speaker 1: with a pen knife, she's going to scream and make noise.
Speaker 1: Versus if you're going to run her through the bandet
Speaker 1: and she dies and then try and cover it up,
Speaker 1: that's going to be pretty like quiet compared pertly. I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna I want to say, though, that I swear
Speaker 1: somewhere in the reading I heard someone reported they thought
Speaker 1: they heard a scream. There's so many of that though, Like,
Speaker 1: like I witness statements are really bad, especially when it's
Speaker 1: two in the morning. Well it's not only two in
Speaker 1: the morning, but it's in like a really horrible neighborhood.
Speaker 1: Like there's drunks and like a bunch of crazy people
Speaker 1: wandering around all the time. You think you kind of
Speaker 1: tune it out. I mean, you know, one of the
Speaker 1: victims that I'm going to talk about in a little
Speaker 1: bit here, people were like, well, I don't know, like
Speaker 1: I heard some screams in the distance kind of but
Speaker 1: like that's pretty normal. I didn't think anything of it.
Speaker 1: I think that's just kind of speaks of the time. Well,
Speaker 1: let's let's move on to the first of the canonical five, okay,
Speaker 1: and that would be Mary Ann Nichols. The first of
Speaker 1: the canonical five. Yeah, Mary and Nichols a k A.
Speaker 1: Polly Nichols was killed five days past her forty three birthday,
Speaker 1: and that was August thirty one, I believe, eighty eight. Married.
Speaker 1: A little bit of background here, had been married, she'd
Speaker 1: had five children, but unfortunately fallen under the influence of
Speaker 1: demon rum and uh because of her alcoholism. Although their
Speaker 1: other there there's conflicting accounts as to why the marriage
Speaker 1: broke up. There's always extenuating circumstances, the drink and yeah, yeah, yeah, so,
Speaker 1: and there were all kinds of different theories. But anyway,
Speaker 1: but it broke up about eighteen eighty one something like that,
Speaker 1: probably because of our alcoholism. But again this is in dispute.
Speaker 1: So she spent most of her remaining years between then
Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty eight when she died in workhouses and
Speaker 1: boarding houses and workhouses you probably want to know what
Speaker 1: those are? Just gonna yeah that workhouses and yeah, exactly
Speaker 1: what boarding houses. Obviously there are places just go rent
Speaker 1: a room or rent a bed for the night or
Speaker 1: by the week or whatever. And then workhouses are places
Speaker 1: where if you're if you're poor and sort of derelict,
Speaker 1: then you're sort of grabbed and stuffed into the workhouse
Speaker 1: and kind of forced to work, but at the same
Speaker 1: time you have a place to live. It's kind of
Speaker 1: like a poor farm here in boarding. Yeah, you like
Speaker 1: work for board you know. And and one of the
Speaker 1: things that's really crazy is gosh, in the boarding houses,
Speaker 1: I can't remember what they call it, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: always rooms that people would rent. I mean, this is
Speaker 1: just a bed. Well, they actually had what equated to
Speaker 1: rows of coffins that you would lay in and that
Speaker 1: was your itty bitty place to sleep. And then if
Speaker 1: you didn't have enough money for that for I don't
Speaker 1: remember what it was. A couple of pennies is the
Speaker 1: phrase I'm going to use. But whatever the currency was
Speaker 1: at the time, the smallest amount it was a couple
Speaker 1: They had poe in these places, and they would tie
Speaker 1: a rope two ropes, wanted about shoulder level and one
Speaker 1: about butt height, and for a couple of pennies you
Speaker 1: could lean against that with a buch of other people
Speaker 1: and sleep on your feet. That this is how crazy
Speaker 1: the boarding houses were. Just to get a place so
Speaker 1: that you were out of the weather rough times. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm really glad I'm not living there right now. Uh so,
Speaker 1: she uh She scratched a living mostly from just handouts, charity, prostitution,
Speaker 1: and she was of course an alcoholic and the money
Speaker 1: she made she mostly spent on alcohol. At the time
Speaker 1: of her desk, she was living at a boarding house
Speaker 1: in Spittlefields, which is a neighborhood just north of Whitechapel
Speaker 1: So onto the murder at one thirty am on August
Speaker 1: thirty one, she was booted out of her boarding house
Speaker 1: because she didn't have money to pay for her bed.
Speaker 1: So apparently this was a pay as you go kind
Speaker 1: of basis here, you know that one Yeah, yeah, uh so,
Speaker 1: she laughed, saying she was going to earn some money
Speaker 1: on the streets to be back. The last sighting of
Speaker 1: her was at two thirty am at the corner of
Speaker 1: Osborne Street in Whitechapel Road. And I'm sure you're all
Speaker 1: familiar with that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Actually, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of maps out there that really show this quite well,
Speaker 1: so people can definitely look that up. Yeah, it's good
Speaker 1: to help follow along, it is. It's great, you know,
Speaker 1: using Google Maps, I was able to look at that
Speaker 1: and able to chart out her course, So she was
Speaker 1: at one White Chapel Road. White Chapel Road, of course,
Speaker 1: was a fairly busy thoroughfare and actually not not as
Speaker 1: slummy as the rest of White Chapel. Apparently at that
Speaker 1: time it was reasonably good, reasonably good repair. As soon
Speaker 1: as he got off of it, things sort of went downhill,
Speaker 1: but it was okay. Uh. So she probably was plying
Speaker 1: her trade on White Chapel Road and between where she
Speaker 1: was last seen and where she probably encountered the ripper,
Speaker 1: I'm instivating fifty ft. It's the distancing she covered between
Speaker 1: and the time she was murdered. We'll find out, we'll
Speaker 1: find later was about three am or a little bit after.
Speaker 1: So's covering sevent d fifty feet in half an Hour's
Speaker 1: not unreasonable, now, yeah, yeah, So she was moving northeast
Speaker 1: on the on the street apparently, and I'm believing she
Speaker 1: met the ripper someplace further away, well, you know, quite
Speaker 1: a bit further away from Osborne Road. Anyway, at three
Speaker 1: forty am her body was found. There's a short little
Speaker 1: side street north of White Chapel Road called bucks Row.
Speaker 1: Now it's called Derwood Street. So if you're going to
Speaker 1: do a Google on that it's Derwoard, not bucks Row.
Speaker 1: But she was found in a short little side street
Speaker 1: was only which is only a couple of blocks long,
Speaker 1: called bucks Row by a cart driver and he's she
Speaker 1: was laying on her back and her skirt had been
Speaker 1: raised over her head. Her throat had been cut twice
Speaker 1: from left to right. Was to me implies a right
Speaker 1: handed ripper. Do you think that makes sense? Yeah, and
Speaker 1: her act of it had been violently slashed. There was
Speaker 1: one massive jagged gash, other smaller gashes I know. Yeah.
Speaker 1: They called a surgeon who examined the body, and he
Speaker 1: arrived at four am and 'st a minute. She'd been
Speaker 1: dead for about half an hour. His name was Dr
Speaker 1: Hanley Llewellen. He later suspected the wounds indicated a left
Speaker 1: handed ripper. And I don't know why he suspected that,
Speaker 1: because for me, I mean, when I'm looking at somebody
Speaker 1: who strode to slash from left to right, I'm thinking
Speaker 1: right hand, Hello, left to right, right to left right. Sorry,
Speaker 1: we're just standing in here. I'm just slashing at their Yeah,
Speaker 1: he would. When you slash somebody, you're probably most likely
Speaker 1: going to do it from behind. You're gonna grab him.
Speaker 1: You're gonna pull their chin up, and you're gonna like
Speaker 1: draw the blade across the throat from behind right, probably
Speaker 1: but also maybe not. Yeah, I mean if you we'll see,
Speaker 1: if you're standing in front, then it would be the
Speaker 1: reverse because you're I would imagine that you wouldn't overhanded
Speaker 1: from right to left, you'd pull from left. You'd want to.
Speaker 1: But Joe, why do you have a knife. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: that's how I die. So you're you're you're gonna show us.
Speaker 1: All right, So let's say let's say I'm in the ripper. Okay,
Speaker 1: first of all, if I if I, if I'm gonna
Speaker 1: slip your through from behind, I'm gonna I'm gonna do
Speaker 1: it like this. You're going to pull from your left
Speaker 1: to your right to be the victims left to right
Speaker 1: across the right. Let's say. But let's say I do
Speaker 1: it from the front. Now, the best way to do
Speaker 1: it from the front is to do it like this
Speaker 1: is to the It like runs down your the side
Speaker 1: of your arm. Yeah, exactly, I'm not. I'm not. Essentially
Speaker 1: I'm pointing the If I'm holding my fist out in
Speaker 1: front of me, the blade is pointing downward, and then
Speaker 1: I just walk up to her and I go, why
Speaker 1: am I like this again? A left to right from
Speaker 1: her point of view? Wound? Um, If I do it,
Speaker 1: that's that's that is the best way to do. I
Speaker 1: guess the next way to do it is to grab
Speaker 1: her hair and do this. Although I could do this,
Speaker 1: which is going from either directionard, but I mean anyway
Speaker 1: that you know, I don't want to believe with the
Speaker 1: port two point too much. I think that to me,
Speaker 1: the left to right wound indicates a right handed ripper. Dr. Llewellen,
Speaker 1: who examined that who was on the cuts, said that
Speaker 1: he's he believed that the wounds indicated that he was
Speaker 1: a left handed person. I guess it would just matter
Speaker 1: like how deep each part. I mean, you know, right
Speaker 1: cut usually gets deeper in the way that it goes
Speaker 1: as it travels, so he would know kind of but
Speaker 1: also maybe not. Yeah, but anyway, it was a sharp
Speaker 1: it was a sharp knive. She probably died pretty quickly.
Speaker 1: Mercifully that, the rumor that the ripper was left handed
Speaker 1: persisted for pretty much forever, even though llewell And himself
Speaker 1: expressed doubts about his own theory. Later on. The inquest
Speaker 1: into the death went on for more than three weeks
Speaker 1: after the murder because they were still bringing into evidence,
Speaker 1: they were still interviewing people from around the neighborhood and
Speaker 1: things like that. At the end, the major finding was
Speaker 1: that Marianne Nichols was murdered at just after three UM,
Speaker 1: so that would put her death about half an hour
Speaker 1: after she was last seen. And then the next the
Speaker 1: only major thing after that, and this has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with anything, but I'll bring it up. Bring it
Speaker 1: up anyway, somebody started to rumor that somebody's name, quote
Speaker 1: leather Apron quote unquote was the killer. We're gonna talk
Speaker 1: about leather Apron more. I know, leather Apron. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: There was a Jewish bookmaker or a Jewish bootmaker in
Speaker 1: the neighborhood named John Piser who has apparently had the
Speaker 1: nickname leather Apron, and so he was arrested of course
Speaker 1: because hey, he's Jewish, he's got a leather Apron. Although
Speaker 1: I gotta say, I do to say his nicknames, go,
Speaker 1: leather Apron is pretty damn creepy. Yeah, it really is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's like you know, the locals, it's wearing your
Speaker 1: your work clothes. Constantly think if your garbage man, If
Speaker 1: you graberge man wears his coveralls and then just goes home,
Speaker 1: he is wearing him, goes to the grocery store, he's
Speaker 1: just wearing him, goes to the bar, he's just wearing him.
Speaker 1: It would be a little weird. So I can see
Speaker 1: how you would be like, hey, garbage man, what's up?
Speaker 1: You know? That be how that nickname starts. But it's
Speaker 1: the weird leather apron. It's just there's just something kind
Speaker 1: of there's sort of serial killerish about it, you know.
Speaker 1: I I understand why that would arouse suspicions. Anyway, this
Speaker 1: guy was arrested and of course interrogator probably beating who
Speaker 1: the hell knows, But he later was released and actually
Speaker 1: received some settlements from a few papers that have published
Speaker 1: libelous information about him. Well, let's let's move on to
Speaker 1: our next victim, who is Annie Chapman. Annie was some
Speaker 1: kind sometimes called dark Annie. She had a full dark
Speaker 1: head of hair, and that's how she got her nickname.
Speaker 1: But she was forty seven years old at the time
Speaker 1: of her death, and same story. She'd moved to White
Speaker 1: Chapel after her marriage had fallen apart. She had issues
Speaker 1: with drink. Uh. She was all actually getting what would
Speaker 1: equate to alimony from her ex husband, which was a
Speaker 1: amount of ten shillings a week, and also had a boyfriend.
Speaker 1: She was living with a man. Well, when her ex
Speaker 1: found out that she was living with another man, he
Speaker 1: cut her alimony to two shillings a week, and suddenly
Speaker 1: her boyfriend evaporates because there's suddenly not this easy flow
Speaker 1: of money, because you know, ten shillings totally enough to
Speaker 1: live on. At the time, it actually wasn't it was
Speaker 1: it was okay money. I mean it didn't it didn't
Speaker 1: get you everywhere, but at least it was something. Well,
Speaker 1: at that point she didn't have a consistent income, and
Speaker 1: as we said, she she took up casual prostitution along
Speaker 1: when doing some other words. It's just such a great term,
Speaker 1: casual prostitution. Yeah, yeah, there were so many prostitutes. How
Speaker 1: did they find their customers? I mean, I mean, if
Speaker 1: you were a john, it must have been like just
Speaker 1: I mean incredibly juicy times. I imagine that they were.
Speaker 1: You know, there's all kinds of men in the area
Speaker 1: coming off of ships and coming in to do words.
Speaker 1: I imagine that it wasn't hard. Probably also worked pretty
Speaker 1: hard hawking their wares. Probably and I probably should have
Speaker 1: mentioned this in my description in the neighborhood too, is
Speaker 1: that it was not far north of the Thames River,
Speaker 1: not far not far away from the docks. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: at some point anyway, this is going to be on
Speaker 1: September eighth of uh Annie was not allowed to stay
Speaker 1: at the lodging house that she'd been at because, as
Speaker 1: we just talked about with several she didn't have the
Speaker 1: money so that she couldn't stay, so she left to
Speaker 1: go make the money. That is a that's another common
Speaker 1: theme in these these guys. Are they all go back
Speaker 1: to there? That guys, these women all go back they
Speaker 1: get booted at because they don't have the cash, and
Speaker 1: ye next thing you know, they're dead. Not all of them.
Speaker 1: But at some point between after five fifteen to five
Speaker 1: thirty in the morning, there's a carpenter who lived at
Speaker 1: number twenty seven Hanbury Street, and he went into the
Speaker 1: backyard of his premises and as he goes towards the door,
Speaker 1: he said he heard a woman say no. And he
Speaker 1: wasn't sure where it comes from, but he thought it
Speaker 1: was on the other side of the fence of the yard.
Speaker 1: Then he went back in. He came out a couple
Speaker 1: of minutes later, he heard something hit the fence that
Speaker 1: divided number twenty seven, where he lived and number twenty nine,
Speaker 1: which is the next house over. What was his name,
Speaker 1: It was Albert Koch. I hope I'm pronouncing it right.
Speaker 1: Sorry Albert if I'm not, But yeah, he said, it
Speaker 1: seemed as if something touched the fence suddenly. He didn't.
Speaker 1: He didn't, however, go look and see what it was. Instead,
Speaker 1: he went back into the house and he left for work.
Speaker 1: And that's how he said he knew what time he
Speaker 1: heard all of this because as he walked out, he
Speaker 1: looked up at the big clock tower and see what
Speaker 1: time it was. He said it was five thirty two
Speaker 1: when he left. About six o'clock that morning. Another gentleman
Speaker 1: by the name of John Davis, who lived in twenty
Speaker 1: nine Hanbury Street, came downstairs, and when he walked out
Speaker 1: into the narrow passage, which is essentially an alleyway, he
Speaker 1: saw what ends up being any Antie Chapman and a
Speaker 1: couple of workmen come around right at that time, and
Speaker 1: he says, man come here. He is evidently what the
Speaker 1: story goes, and they found the mutilated body of Annie Chapman.
Speaker 1: Her dress was pulled up around her knees, which we
Speaker 1: heard in the last murder. This is starting to become
Speaker 1: a bit of an m o um. A deep cut
Speaker 1: had been slashed across her throat, her intestines had been
Speaker 1: tugged out and laid across her shoulder, which is disturbing,
Speaker 1: and her uterus and her bladder had been removed, and
Speaker 1: the unse was taken with like that was our found, right,
Speaker 1: that is correct? I do not I do not remember.
Speaker 1: She was the one where I think it was the
Speaker 1: first kind of hey, maybe this person has some kind
Speaker 1: of medical training, wasn't she? No, that's actually that comes
Speaker 1: in later on. But these organs were removed and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, as with the others, it's it is extremely grizzly.
Speaker 1: I don't know where which direction they thought her throat
Speaker 1: was cut from. I didn't catch that detail, though, I'm
Speaker 1: sure it's out there. I just didn't catch it. But
Speaker 1: that's how she was killed, which is not a nice
Speaker 1: way to die, I don't think. But at least he
Speaker 1: uh slit first before we started tearing their bodies up
Speaker 1: a mercy. We've we've got to believe that, because otherwise
Speaker 1: you would think that the screams of agony would have
Speaker 1: been so loud people would have been caught on the
Speaker 1: first time, first try, of course. So the next victim
Speaker 1: Caniconical Canada. Canaical victim is Elizabeth Stride, and she uh
Speaker 1: is a little different than the rest of the victims.
Speaker 1: Her story. She was forty four years old and she
Speaker 1: was from Sweden. She was killed on September eighth. She
Speaker 1: was originally married to a ship's carpenter um after a
Speaker 1: life of prostitution, so unlike many of the victims who
Speaker 1: turned to prostitution, she was pretty much prostitute the whole time.
Speaker 1: She was described by her boyfriend kind of at the time.
Speaker 1: I guess he was kind of her boyfriend at the
Speaker 1: time as having a calm demeanor except for when she
Speaker 1: started drinking. Oh yeah, I do remember that about her.
Speaker 1: She she's a little fiery when she got Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So her husband died of TV and they had no children.
Speaker 1: Her husband, the ship's carpenter I think it would yeah, toberculosis. Sorry,
Speaker 1: And I think it was um like ten years before
Speaker 1: she came to White Chapel, however, a little like snippet
Speaker 1: of the kind of person she was. She told, like
Speaker 1: everyone in White Chapel, that her husband Um and two
Speaker 1: of their nine children had died, died in the thinking
Speaker 1: of the Queen Anne, and that she lost all of
Speaker 1: the teeth on her left side and developed the stutter
Speaker 1: because somebody had kicked her in the faith as they
Speaker 1: swam to safety. Yes. Uh So, after her husband died,
Speaker 1: she moved to White Chapel and turned to hooking again
Speaker 1: and had kind of an on again offgin relationship with
Speaker 1: the Jewish man Um, during which times she learned Yiddish.
Speaker 1: And this may come into play later, it will come
Speaker 1: into play. Uh And in fact, Elizabeth Stride was seen
Speaker 1: just twenty minutes prior to her discovery, the discovery of
Speaker 1: her body. Um, she'd been seen many times throughout the night,
Speaker 1: and almost all of her night was like very well
Speaker 1: accounted for. You know, she was selling her weares, she
Speaker 1: was with different gentleman, she was drinking, she was brawling,
Speaker 1: she was drinking some more. Yeah, she was seen with
Speaker 1: three different gentlemen, and everybody kind of just assumes that
Speaker 1: she was. They were clients of hers. She was last
Speaker 1: seen rejecting the advances of a man just outside of
Speaker 1: a Jewish social club, and there was a concert that
Speaker 1: was happening in the club, but nobody said they heard
Speaker 1: anything happen. There were a lot of people around when
Speaker 1: she died, but nobody heard anything, maybe because there was
Speaker 1: a concert hap probably, but also maybe not, It's hard
Speaker 1: to tell. One witness named Israel Shorts reported seeing Stride
Speaker 1: being attacked and thrown to the ground outside of Duke
Speaker 1: Field's Yard dut Fields Yard dut Field Yard um at
Speaker 1: about am and apparently the according to Israel Schwartz, the
Speaker 1: attacker called out Lipsky to a second man who was
Speaker 1: standing nearby. But it was possible that there was some
Speaker 1: kind of uh anti Semitic taunt happening there because apparently
Speaker 1: there was a prisoner that was really famous at the
Speaker 1: time who was an anti Semitic who was named Israel
Speaker 1: Lipsky the corner at the time. Blackwell thought that Stride
Speaker 1: might have been pulled backwards onto the ground by her
Speaker 1: neckerchief before her throat was cut. When they found her,
Speaker 1: her neckerchief was cut in half along with her throat. Um.
Speaker 1: Another corner later concurred that Stride was likely to have
Speaker 1: been on the ground when she was killed by a
Speaker 1: swift slash from left to right across her neck, and
Speaker 1: then there was bruising on her chest that suggested that
Speaker 1: she was pinned to the ground during her attack. So
Speaker 1: that I don't want to go I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I feel like we don't have to go into a
Speaker 1: lot of the grizzly details. A lot of these you
Speaker 1: can kind of assume from where the trajectory has been going,
Speaker 1: that's where we're headed. Yeah. The one thing about the
Speaker 1: Ripper is that his attacks grew more horrific as time
Speaker 1: went by. Yeah, there and every one of them that
Speaker 1: they got more savage. And we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: just a minute, pretty bad already. And this and Elizabeth
Speaker 1: Stride is one of the two of the double night Right,
Speaker 1: and she she only had her throat cut. She wasn't
Speaker 1: fully butchered as the others were. What's led some people
Speaker 1: to suggest that perhaps because it was so busy around it,
Speaker 1: that he was interrupted in mid course. Correct, And that's
Speaker 1: what leads us to victim number four four, which would
Speaker 1: be Katherine Kate Adams. Again, a little background on Kate
Speaker 1: She's forty six years old and same story Fallen on
Speaker 1: hard times, has issues with drinking. On Saturday, the twenty
Speaker 1: three of September, she was picked up at eight thirty
Speaker 1: at night by the local police constable because she was
Speaker 1: passed out in the road. They hauled her in. They
Speaker 1: say she's sobered up enough that they let her go
Speaker 1: around one o'clock in the morning. If I remember the story,
Speaker 1: they knew she had sobered up because they knew her.
Speaker 1: And she was sitting in her cell kind of singing,
Speaker 1: and everybody could hear and Okay, well, I guess Kate,
Speaker 1: you're okay, let's get you out of here. The weird
Speaker 1: thing is that she didn't head in the direction of
Speaker 1: her lodging house. She kind of went in the opposite direction.
Speaker 1: There was police constable walking his route, which took him
Speaker 1: through an area known as Miter Square, and he found
Speaker 1: the body of Kate at one in the morning. His
Speaker 1: route took him through Miters Square fifteen minutes earlier, though,
Speaker 1: so one thirty came through and there was nothing there.
Speaker 1: He came through and he finds the body. That suggest
Speaker 1: that perhaps the murder between his powers of deduction. Uh, well,
Speaker 1: here's here's what they find. And and this is this
Speaker 1: is pretty grizzly. But Um, her neck had been slit,
Speaker 1: Her thighs were naked because of course her her dress
Speaker 1: had been pulled up. Um, her abdomen was exposed. Her
Speaker 1: intestines had been pulled out and placed over the right shoulder. Um,
Speaker 1: there was matter smeared on her cheek. A piece of
Speaker 1: her intestines, evidently about two ft long piece had been
Speaker 1: cut free and was laying next to her left worm,
Speaker 1: almost as if it had been laid there by design.
Speaker 1: Her right ear had been caught. There's a bunch of
Speaker 1: clotted blood on her. I mean, basically, she has been butchered.
Speaker 1: And this one is so interesting, interesting because well, I
Speaker 1: mean I think that actually, Um, Richard talked a little
Speaker 1: bit about this too, in terms of that, you know,
Speaker 1: we just said there was like fifteen minutes this happened,
Speaker 1: like truly, this all of everything that Steve just said
Speaker 1: happened in fifteen minutes. Yeah, and she was still warm,
Speaker 1: the body was still war which tells you it was
Speaker 1: minutes ago. Yeah. But when you think about it, it
Speaker 1: wouldn't take that much time. I mean, you split her,
Speaker 1: throw up, throw on the ground. You know, basically stabber, ripper,
Speaker 1: open reaching, rip out, some oregans, lay him on the ground.
Speaker 1: It wouldn't take any time at all, really, well theoretically,
Speaker 1: I mean, it could have been quick and clean. It
Speaker 1: could have been quick and messy, could have been any
Speaker 1: of that. It's hard to say. I think there's some
Speaker 1: some details that aren't nearly as gory that are probably
Speaker 1: pertinent that we can share. And Richard helped kind of
Speaker 1: walk us through that. And and let's let's hear what
Speaker 1: he said about that. Yeah, what happened was Elizabeth Stride's
Speaker 1: body was found at one o'clock in the morning, and
Speaker 1: she was found in Duckfield Yards off Burning Street. She
Speaker 1: was found by a man named Louis Deemschutz, who had
Speaker 1: come back to the yard from he'd been hawking cheap jewelry.
Speaker 1: But he was the steward of a work on the
Speaker 1: Polish and Jewish working Men's Club Socialist Club that was
Speaker 1: in Duckfield Yard. And as he came into the yard,
Speaker 1: his pony shied and pulled aside, and he looked into
Speaker 1: the dark and he saw something lying on the ground.
Speaker 1: So his first thought was it it was just something
Speaker 1: lying there, so he reached over to lift it with
Speaker 1: his horse with his whip, and he couldn't, so he
Speaker 1: jumped down and struck a match and it was a woman.
Speaker 1: Now his next action is that no one's really ever
Speaker 1: explained it. He presumed it was his wife and she
Speaker 1: was drunk. To investigate, to check on his wife, and
Speaker 1: he found his wife in the kitchen, and that's when
Speaker 1: he went to the other members and he said it
Speaker 1: there was a woman downstairs, and she's drunk or she's dead,
Speaker 1: I'm not certain which. So they went down and that
Speaker 1: they found that her throat had been cut, and it
Speaker 1: was in fact a murder victim, but the rest of
Speaker 1: her body hadn't been mutilated, which was the murder's opera
Speaker 1: endi of the Ripper killings. So this led the police
Speaker 1: to surmise that the ripper had been interrupted, that when
Speaker 1: he come into the yard, he'd actually interrupted the ripper,
Speaker 1: and the ripper had jumped back, and it was that
Speaker 1: sudden movement that startled the pony, which caused it to shy.
Speaker 1: And then whilst amshus in the yard, and fact, it
Speaker 1: dawned on him later that day that the ripper was
Speaker 1: probably hiding alongside him in the dark yard. So had
Speaker 1: he acted differently at that point, the chances are would
Speaker 1: have been taken. But he presumed it was his wife
Speaker 1: and went into the club, which gave the ripper those
Speaker 1: for minutes or even seconds to get out of the yard,
Speaker 1: and he headed for the city of London, which is
Speaker 1: where he met Catherine Etto's now her body was found
Speaker 1: forty five minutes later in Miter Square, which is no
Speaker 1: great distance away from Berna Street. You could even walk
Speaker 1: it in in less than ten minutes, so her body
Speaker 1: was found there. It was just as I say, two murders,
Speaker 1: and that became known as the Night of the Double Murder.
Speaker 1: But there is a belief or a theory that Elizabeth
Speaker 1: Stride wasn't a Ripper victim because she was actually seen
Speaker 1: being attacked by a man called Israel Schwartz fifteen minutes
Speaker 1: before her body was discovered, So some people think that
Speaker 1: she was actually a coincidence, not a victim. And bizarrely,
Speaker 1: some some historians even referred to her as Lucky list
Speaker 1: Stride because she only had a throat cut, the rest
Speaker 1: of the body wasn't mutilated. That I say, what's lucky
Speaker 1: about that? Exactly like guys, lucky he didn't get this
Speaker 1: is it? And I said, that's the night. Probably he
Speaker 1: came closest to being caught, but say that, don't damn
Speaker 1: should didn't didn't say he left the scene and that
Speaker 1: gave the rip of the time he needed. Next up
Speaker 1: is the last of the canal five. We'll just cut that.
Speaker 1: So Mary Kelly, she was found well murdered uh November
Speaker 1: nine eight and she uh was like only twenty five
Speaker 1: years old, which is, um, if you've been following along,
Speaker 1: quite young for this kind of spate of murders. And
Speaker 1: there's no really good information about her life prior to
Speaker 1: eighteen eight seven. Uh. Mostly it's just like conjecture or
Speaker 1: like what she told people. Um. She was probably married
Speaker 1: at sixteen to a coal miner who died like three
Speaker 1: or four years later in a mine explosion. She was
Speaker 1: probably from Ireland, but beyond that the facts are pretty
Speaker 1: few and far between. After her husband's death, she took
Speaker 1: to prostitution. Apparently she was really really attractive, but it's
Speaker 1: a little bit of a mystery as to like what
Speaker 1: she actually looked like. Um. She had a couple of
Speaker 1: different nicknames. One was Dark Mary, but they think that
Speaker 1: probably that had to do more with um, the type
Speaker 1: of personality she was when she was drunk, then with
Speaker 1: her appearance. She probably had blonde or red light red hair. Um,
Speaker 1: she was fair. They called her fair every once in
Speaker 1: a while. She had a lot of nicknames. I don't
Speaker 1: even want to go there. She was described as um
Speaker 1: very quiet, a very quiet woman when sober, but noisy
Speaker 1: when drunk or when in drink excuse me, by the
Speaker 1: man that she was living with at the time of
Speaker 1: her death. But also I'll note that's why I believe
Speaker 1: that she's Irish, because I am Irish too. I am
Speaker 1: I well to be fair, I'm noisy all the time.
Speaker 1: I'm not it once sober. We're gonna dive into this
Speaker 1: and this one, as Joe was mentioning, they just keep
Speaker 1: getting worse and worse. This one's rough. Um. By most accounts,
Speaker 1: after a long night of multiple sightings with multiple men,
Speaker 1: Mary was probably seen with a man whose description uh
Speaker 1: is inadmissible to me because it was clearly false, but
Speaker 1: fine entering her room in a boarding house. I say
Speaker 1: it was false because it was a man by the
Speaker 1: name of George Hutchinson, who we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: in a little bit who was friends with Mary. Um
Speaker 1: he met her at two am. She said, Hey, I'm broke,
Speaker 1: Can you give me some money? And he said no,
Speaker 1: I'm broke too, and then they like parted ways, but
Speaker 1: he creepy watched her leave and uh met with somebody
Speaker 1: who George said it was a man, another man, and
Speaker 1: she said he said that she seemed to know him,
Speaker 1: but the man was dressed really well for the area,
Speaker 1: so he, being a good samaritan m George followed her
Speaker 1: and this man back to Mary's house uh and watched
Speaker 1: the house for like an hour and provide the police
Speaker 1: with an i possibly detailed description, including like eyelash color
Speaker 1: which he could totally see of this. Yeah, from like
Speaker 1: twenty yards away. Absolutely, so there's been a whole lot
Speaker 1: of kind of stuff there. But the story is probably
Speaker 1: at least partially true because another woman who lived in
Speaker 1: the boarding house said that she saw when she came
Speaker 1: home at like two thirty am, there was a man
Speaker 1: standing across the street watching the house. So that's yeah,
Speaker 1: that was Hutchinson. That's creepy either way, it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1: There are a few reports of Mary being around at
Speaker 1: like eight am or ten am the next morning, but
Speaker 1: pretty much those are false. The corner said that her
Speaker 1: her time of death was between two and eight am,
Speaker 1: which is a wide range, but the mutilation that she
Speaker 1: sustained after death was definitely a couple hours worth of work.
Speaker 1: I don't want to go into too much detail about this.
Speaker 1: We've been doing lots of Grewsome stories this whole time,
Speaker 1: and we've already talked about some grewsome stuff this but
Speaker 1: like this takes the cake. I mean, no one in
Speaker 1: the house heard any commotion to signify when she might
Speaker 1: have been killed. But she was killed with a slash
Speaker 1: to her throat. Probably it was quick and quiet. The
Speaker 1: rest is really awful. Her clothes were neatly folded on
Speaker 1: a chair next to her bed, which means that maybe
Speaker 1: it was a john that she brought home. She was
Speaker 1: likely um asleep. They think she was asleep when her
Speaker 1: throat was cut, um, signifying that the person was in
Speaker 1: there with her. However, um her room in the boarding
Speaker 1: house didn't. She lost the key, so she broke a
Speaker 1: window and just like would read gin and unlock it,
Speaker 1: so it could have been somebody who gained access later.
Speaker 1: Her mutilation is horrifying. Body parts removed, all kinds of cuts, gouges,
Speaker 1: runs the gamut. You really want to know about that,
Speaker 1: there will be Yeah, just google her. There are pictures
Speaker 1: to Another nice little tidbit fact is that there was
Speaker 1: apparently like a really large fire in her You know,
Speaker 1: they've had stoves in their rooms and there had been
Speaker 1: some clothing burned to provide light. Foresaid mutilation. So that's,
Speaker 1: you know, my might might think. My take on that
Speaker 1: is that the the murder probably had his clothing soaked
Speaker 1: with blood, did a quick change of clothes, and then
Speaker 1: just through the clothes in, which is even more disturbing
Speaker 1: because that means he brought a change of clothes in
Speaker 1: banding to get that wild. Yeah, but she was she
Speaker 1: was living on and off with a man, So there
Speaker 1: it's possible that there were other most or as as
Speaker 1: I think somebody has mentioned, there's also the theory that
Speaker 1: perhaps Jack ripperd dressed as a woman when coming and
Speaker 1: going from these things too. That was Yeah, that was
Speaker 1: Jack London or who was it knows Arthur Conan Doyle
Speaker 1: had come up with that. Yeah, and I believe that
Speaker 1: maybe he just borrowed some of Mary's clothes. I mean
Speaker 1: it would explain why, like nobody saw anything unusual leaving
Speaker 1: the women's boarding house that she lived in. But yeah,
Speaker 1: not a nasty little murder. And then we we've got
Speaker 1: one more outlier that we're just going to cover up. Briefly,
Speaker 1: this is related sort of maybe I don't really know.
Speaker 1: This is Francis coles um ak a Francis Coleman. Francis
Speaker 1: Hawkins also noticed charity. Now, uh yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: where that came from. But she she was someone like
Speaker 1: Marianne Nichols and all the others. Her life was unapproved
Speaker 1: by alcohol. She was a prostitute in the Whitechappell area
Speaker 1: for reportedly about eight years preceding her death. And on
Speaker 1: the day preceding her death, she had been bar hopping
Speaker 1: with the emergencyman named James Sadler who was arrested and
Speaker 1: and they they actually tried to uh send her prison
Speaker 1: for her murder, but it didn't work out that way
Speaker 1: because he had a pretty good alibi. Looking into that
Speaker 1: a little bit, this is real quick, because I don't
Speaker 1: think this is even related to the ripper she liked
Speaker 1: many of the others. Went went back to her lodging
Speaker 1: house where she had been staying. She was booted out
Speaker 1: because she didn't have cash to pay for her bed
Speaker 1: for that night, and so she wound up back on
Speaker 1: the streets looking to earn a little money so she
Speaker 1: could sleep for the night, and she bumped into a
Speaker 1: fellow prostitute named Ellen Klena or Colina Colinna. I don't
Speaker 1: know how her neighbor was pronounced, we'll say Klena. Anyway,
Speaker 1: A man approached them. He propositioned Klena and uh, he
Speaker 1: apparently made her spider sense tank and she said he
Speaker 1: wouldn't have sex with her, and so he punched her
Speaker 1: in the face. Why didn't I know? What a great guy?
Speaker 1: And then propositioned Frances Coles, and Coles left with him. Well,
Speaker 1: well that's not good judgment, do you think I mean? Well,
Speaker 1: at two fifteen a a m Her body was discovered
Speaker 1: by a constable named Ernest Thompson. There was a railway
Speaker 1: art and she her body was in there, and she
Speaker 1: was still alive. Her body had been her throat had
Speaker 1: been slit from ear to ear. She was bleeding profusely,
Speaker 1: but he noticed that her one eye opened and closed,
Speaker 1: so she was still alive. At that time. He blew
Speaker 1: his whistle for more help and all that stuff, and
Speaker 1: they won't got a doctor. But of course she died
Speaker 1: because she bled out yeah yeah, but uh, it doesn't
Speaker 1: look like she was really she's part of the White
Speaker 1: Chappel murders, but the murder was not really the same. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's just that one piece was left.
Speaker 1: She wasn't mutilated, although then again it's possible because the
Speaker 1: constable reported that when he was approaching the crime, seeing
Speaker 1: you're retreating footsteps that sounds like a man's footsteps running away,
Speaker 1: and so it's possible that interrupted again he interrupted the
Speaker 1: interrupted the crime, and that maybe it was a ripper.
Speaker 1: But here's why I don't think it was. Okay, Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: James Sadler was released because witnesses that seeing him and
Speaker 1: he was a merchant seaman. He was seen between two
Speaker 1: and three am, and it was too drunk to commit
Speaker 1: the murder because he had been bar hopping with her
Speaker 1: the night before. Uh, the reason I don't think so
Speaker 1: it is no mutilation, although again there's extenuating certain necessary. Also,
Speaker 1: she was killed with a blunt knife and the Medical
Speaker 1: Examber reported that the ripper used a sharp knife. This
Speaker 1: was a blunt knife. So okay, there you go. Well
Speaker 1: that that is seven victims total that we've taught about.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, things that I hadn't thought
Speaker 1: about was the lives of these women at the time,
Speaker 1: the things they go through. And I know it's sad,
Speaker 1: it's very sad, and and they're they're kind of in
Speaker 1: this story, as Richard said, he said, they're they're kind
Speaker 1: of the forgotten piece of the story of who they were,
Speaker 1: and he brings up some really good points, and so
Speaker 1: I want to share that with everybody. I think the
Speaker 1: the other important thing is that I mean, I think
Speaker 1: the victims. I think the victims often become from one
Speaker 1: of a better way of putting the forgotten victims in
Speaker 1: the case, because we just got the names of these women.
Speaker 1: But what they virtually all of them full of a
Speaker 1: similar pattern. And it was a really tragic pattern in
Speaker 1: that I wouldn't say they came from wealthy families, but
Speaker 1: they certainly came from you know, they weren't policy stricken women,
Speaker 1: but they all become alcoholics, and it was a sort
Speaker 1: of a downward spiral that they then their marriages have
Speaker 1: broke down, they've been sometimes ostracized from their families, and
Speaker 1: then they ended up in the East End of London,
Speaker 1: living transient existence in the common lodging houses. So they
Speaker 1: weren't prostitutes by choice, they were prostitutes by necessity. And
Speaker 1: I think that's the thing. That we've got tragic victims
Speaker 1: who often get overlooked, and I think that's the case.
Speaker 1: And also the fact that he was the world's first
Speaker 1: real media murderer. I mean, it's often said he's the
Speaker 1: world's first serial killer, which is not true, but he's
Speaker 1: certainly the first one where the press start to realize this,
Speaker 1: this is capturing people's imaginations, and so the press start
Speaker 1: going to town on it. And what's interesting is that
Speaker 1: over that ten week or so period, when when the
Speaker 1: murders are really grabbing the attention and terrifying people and
Speaker 1: shocking people, the newspapers are coming out several times a
Speaker 1: day reporting on what's going on, the latest finds, and
Speaker 1: they're bringing all this salacious detail to their readers, and
Speaker 1: suddenly you've got they must go over the top. And
Speaker 1: when Mary Kelly gets murdered, it seems she's the last victim.
Speaker 1: It seems that the press realized they've gone too far,
Speaker 1: and it's almost as there were lights which has been
Speaker 1: switched off and it stops it that the salacious detail
Speaker 1: eases off and then interest is lost. But for that
Speaker 1: ten or so a week period, we've got this opportunity.
Speaker 1: I can't think of any other period in history where
Speaker 1: you can look at a specific part of a major
Speaker 1: city in anywhere really, but in a major city in
Speaker 1: England in this case, you can look at a tiny
Speaker 1: part of that area and because of the newspaper reportage,
Speaker 1: get an insight if you like, it's a window into
Speaker 1: the past, and just look at the daily lives of
Speaker 1: the people living through the horror of the jack that
Speaker 1: of the murders. We've we've covered the victims. Now something
Speaker 1: else that we need to talk about is the actual
Speaker 1: activity to the police. Yeah, they wus right exactly now,
Speaker 1: they did just go for douch instant. By the way,
Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century, I don't think they I don't
Speaker 1: think the donut existed. I think it might have accidentally
Speaker 1: been made. But I believe that is a dunkin Donuts creation. Okay,
Speaker 1: I know it's not a dunkin Donuts creation. Please nobody
Speaker 1: said a scathing emails I was making that up. It's
Speaker 1: a joke. But let's let's talk about the police and
Speaker 1: something that people need to understand about the time in
Speaker 1: the area. There was not one police force. There was
Speaker 1: actually two police forces in operation that we're trying to
Speaker 1: catch Jack the ripper. There is the Metropolitan Police and
Speaker 1: then there's the City of London Police. The murders of
Speaker 1: Mary Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and Mary Kelly all
Speaker 1: took place in White Chapel and Spittle Fields, which was
Speaker 1: not really actually in London city limits, correct, that was
Speaker 1: outside of it. So that was the jurisdiction of the
Speaker 1: Metro Police of Metropolitan Police, and they were investigating those
Speaker 1: four murders. Katherine Attos, however, when she was killed in
Speaker 1: Miter Square, that's inside of the City of London, so
Speaker 1: her her death came under the City of London Police.
Speaker 1: And here's here's how the how this works is when
Speaker 1: London was first created, and we're going back to Roman
Speaker 1: times because London was a Roman outpost and at that
Speaker 1: time they call it the Golden Mile because Rome had
Speaker 1: built this and London was a one basically a one
Speaker 1: mile square and they had built walls around it, and
Speaker 1: the Thames ran through the middle and these walls. I've
Speaker 1: seen remnants of these walls, and we're not just talking
Speaker 1: about a brick wall. We're talking about six to eight
Speaker 1: feet thick and upwards of funny feet high. All commerce
Speaker 1: happened inside of the wall, so that's why they called
Speaker 1: it the Golden Mile, and everything else everybody lived in.
Speaker 1: All the work happened outside of that area. So if
Speaker 1: you ever happen to get a chance to go there
Speaker 1: and see these walls, they're fantastic. The pieces that are
Speaker 1: still there are amazing history because there are thousands of
Speaker 1: years old in the middle of a freaking giant city.
Speaker 1: And I thought I didn't see those in London, but
Speaker 1: I saw it when I was in Chester, England. There's
Speaker 1: that was also another Roman walled city, and there's remnants
Speaker 1: of the wall is still there and it's it's it
Speaker 1: really is incredible to think that this is like back
Speaker 1: to the times before Christ. It's amazing. Yeah, well, these
Speaker 1: you know, these these policemen, they are doing a lot
Speaker 1: of work. You got police constables that Bobby's basically that
Speaker 1: are on their route and they walk their route to
Speaker 1: keep an eye out. Jack the Ripper murders hit, they
Speaker 1: are suddenly inundated with work. And this is back in
Speaker 1: the day again, like we said, no cars. Everybody's on
Speaker 1: foot or maybe not a horse, and you gotta track
Speaker 1: everything down. So it is tons and tons of work,
Speaker 1: and there's a little evidently there was a little bit
Speaker 1: of bad blood between the two police forces. It wasn't
Speaker 1: like they really worked together. And there's a lot of
Speaker 1: things where guys, you know, as I know one of
Speaker 1: us had said at some point or maybe it comes
Speaker 1: up later, they named their suspects, but they're all naming
Speaker 1: different suspects, so people weren't really working together. So though
Speaker 1: I know they were trying to do good, it wasn't
Speaker 1: the most organized search and investigation that I've seen. That is,
Speaker 1: and that is like really typical. I mean, they've heard
Speaker 1: many stories and things like serial killer investigations here in
Speaker 1: America where the local police department gets really really territorial
Speaker 1: with the FEDS, like the FBI comes in and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. There's a lot of bad blood. It's so
Speaker 1: it's it's part of the course. Well do you know
Speaker 1: who else was trying to do good? The White Chapel
Speaker 1: vigilance committee. Oh yeah, that's right. Those guys, do you
Speaker 1: talk about them? Yeah? Yeah. They were trying real hard
Speaker 1: to do good. They were comprised of like fourteen area businessmen, tradesmen,
Speaker 1: one actor, and they were formed out of quote a
Speaker 1: concern not for the women who were being killed and mutilated,
Speaker 1: but the impact the killings were having on the commerce
Speaker 1: in the areas. On September tenth eight, which may have
Speaker 1: been a bit late. Uh, they elected their chairman, who
Speaker 1: was local businessman George Lusk, who becomes fairly important in
Speaker 1: a minute. I'll talk about this in just like a second. Here.
Speaker 1: They were interviewed by lots of local papers. Uh. They
Speaker 1: encouraged the police to issue a reward for information, and
Speaker 1: when the police were like nah, they were like, all right,
Speaker 1: we'll do it. So they he put a bunch of
Speaker 1: posters up trying to inform people, saying, you know, any
Speaker 1: information that leads to the arrest of this person, we
Speaker 1: will give you a regard. Yes, it was not a
Speaker 1: whole lot. And actually after the death of Elizabeth Stride,
Speaker 1: the committee decided that they were unhappy with the level
Speaker 1: of protection that the police were offering, so they created
Speaker 1: their own citizen patrol Force and employed to private detectives.
Speaker 1: But George Lusk in October of was the recipient of
Speaker 1: one of the famous Ripper letters. In fact, it gets
Speaker 1: a little worse than that. It was a nice little bit.
Speaker 1: It's a nice little bit of of ripper lore. It's
Speaker 1: the from Hell letter. Yeah, this is very popular. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so uh. He returned home to find a small package
Speaker 1: in the mail. Upon opening it, he found half of
Speaker 1: a human kidney and a note that read from Hell,
Speaker 1: Mr Lusk, s O R. I send you half the
Speaker 1: kidney I took from one woman per praised it for you.
Speaker 1: The other piece I fried and ate. It was very nice.
Speaker 1: I may send you the bloody knife that took out
Speaker 1: took it out if only you wait a while longer,
Speaker 1: signed catch me when you can miss your lux Lusk.
Speaker 1: You should, if you want, you should go out and
Speaker 1: read it. It's there's so many misspellings in here. I
Speaker 1: can't even it's awesome. Well I've seen a copy of
Speaker 1: the original two and it's it's almost illegible to Yeah,
Speaker 1: Mr Lusk, he was pretty sure it was a hoax actually,
Speaker 1: and so he was like, yeah, just throw it away.
Speaker 1: But he told a couple of his fellow committee members,
Speaker 1: and they said, well, actually, maybe we should take that
Speaker 1: to the police, and he said, all right, fine, So
Speaker 1: they took it the police and it kind of just
Speaker 1: fades into lore from that point. There's a lot about
Speaker 1: the letters, and I don't think that we're actually going
Speaker 1: to talk too much about the letters. Um, I think
Speaker 1: that our interview with Richard shed some really good light
Speaker 1: on the letters. Yeah, the letters, I think typically in
Speaker 1: situations like this, usually all kinds of cranks write letters,
Speaker 1: and so it's really hard were you know, journalists or whatever.
Speaker 1: But this one particularly sticks out because it did have
Speaker 1: that half a human kidney, which follows quickly after another letter,
Speaker 1: you know, and I don't I didn't take notes on this.
Speaker 1: I just kind of vaguely read about it. So I'm
Speaker 1: doing this from memory at this point. But there was
Speaker 1: another letter that wasn't released that was right before Lusk
Speaker 1: got it. Uh, this package with a letter that said
Speaker 1: that they were the ripper or whoever sent the letter
Speaker 1: claimed they were going to send half a kidney to somebody,
Speaker 1: and then a couple of days later, half a kidney
Speaker 1: showed up. So there's some there's a little bit of
Speaker 1: evidence to suggest that perhaps there was some of them
Speaker 1: were legitimate, but there were, you know, as Richard talked about,
Speaker 1: and actually we should probably just let him talk about it.
Speaker 1: There's there's so many letters that it's hard to kind
Speaker 1: of suss out what's real and what's not. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: plus but you know, also if you're planning us a
Speaker 1: crank letter with half a kidney in it to some person,
Speaker 1: then it's not that hard to like plan at all
Speaker 1: and send out a letter saying you're going to send
Speaker 1: Hafrican is somebody's several days prior to that. I mean
Speaker 1: it really, you know, that still doesn't prove anything to me.
Speaker 1: Now that the letters, well, first of all, I mean
Speaker 1: one of the things we have to differentiate between is
Speaker 1: the White chapp Or murderer and Jack the Ripper. I
Speaker 1: often said Jack the Ripper was the man who never
Speaker 1: existed because he didn't. He was the creation of a
Speaker 1: letter writer. And that was the famous dear Boss Lenser.
Speaker 1: I keep on hearing the police have court me, but
Speaker 1: they won't fix me just yet. And it goes on
Speaker 1: to gloat over the murders, and then it signed Jack
Speaker 1: the Ripper. Now the letter arrived where it entered the
Speaker 1: investigation when the police were getting a lot of press criticism.
Speaker 1: So the police made the letter public in the hope
Speaker 1: that it would give them a breakthrough, and very soon
Speaker 1: they realized they've made a massive mistake because once the
Speaker 1: letter went public, it gave the murderer a name, that
Speaker 1: name Jack the Ripper, and so the media throughout the
Speaker 1: world latched onto that name and it almost turned it
Speaker 1: into a sort of a pantomime on the streets of
Speaker 1: the East End of London. And the other effect was
Speaker 1: that when that letter went public and it was signed
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper, hoaxes throughout the land began reaching for
Speaker 1: their pens and the police become became swamped with this
Speaker 1: a tidal wave of Ripper correspondence. So there were lots,
Speaker 1: and we're not just talking one letter. We're talking lots
Speaker 1: of letters that were coming in because every one of
Speaker 1: them had to be investigated and assessed and if ever positive,
Speaker 1: if it was possible, to followed up, and it brought
Speaker 1: the police investigation almost to a standstill. It had the
Speaker 1: opposite effect that what the police had wanted, It gave
Speaker 1: them more more false information they needed. But the letter itself,
Speaker 1: the police at the time and a lot of experts
Speaker 1: today are convinced it was the work of the journalist
Speaker 1: who actually did it, probably just to keep paper papers selling,
Speaker 1: but it certainly did turn five sword least then murders
Speaker 1: into an international phenomenon and gave birth the legend of
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper. So another kind of issue that uh,
Speaker 1: we wanted to bring up is kind of it has
Speaker 1: the potential to be an inflammatory issue, and that's fine,
Speaker 1: is that there was a lot of anti Semitism happening
Speaker 1: in London at this time. There's I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: and Richard talks about this little bit and we'll we'll
Speaker 1: let him talk about it in a minute. But you know,
Speaker 1: after the double event on thet um police of course,
Speaker 1: just like you, just were scouring the area for clues
Speaker 1: and at about three am a constable found a bit
Speaker 1: of bloody cloth like a shawl the apron. It was
Speaker 1: a piece of the apron excuse me that was apparently
Speaker 1: later to be confirmed as part of Katherine at ows
Speaker 1: ETOs apron excuse me, And above it written in chalk
Speaker 1: was either the Jews are the men that will not
Speaker 1: be blamed for nothing, or the Jews are not the
Speaker 1: men to be blamed for nothing. Um Jews is spelled
Speaker 1: j u w e s. There are are a couple
Speaker 1: different police officers who responded to this. They all wrote
Speaker 1: down different things that this said. And I guess here
Speaker 1: is where we need to back up a little bit
Speaker 1: to the Mary Ann Nicholas murder. Nichols murder and the
Speaker 1: rumors about her killer being Um, the Jewish man named
Speaker 1: uh leather Apron. This was not a particularly good time
Speaker 1: for Jews in London, no matter what. There were a
Speaker 1: lot of them, A lot of them were in this
Speaker 1: kind of White Chapel slum area, and as Richard kind
Speaker 1: of talked about, their influx kind of coincided with these murders.
Speaker 1: And I think that everybody could pretty much agree that
Speaker 1: like this is totally circumstantial. It doesn't actually say anything
Speaker 1: about Jewish people on the whole. But of course, if
Speaker 1: there's a new group of people in an area and
Speaker 1: then things that people have never seen before start happening,
Speaker 1: they're going to blame the new people for the new thing.
Speaker 1: And there were a lot of Jews from Eastern Europe
Speaker 1: who who would come into the area absolutely and a
Speaker 1: ton of Irish that had also recently come into the
Speaker 1: area too, sure, but I think you know, one of
Speaker 1: the things that's really handy about the like Eastern European
Speaker 1: Jews that come into the country is that they all
Speaker 1: speak Yiddish or their native language, not English, so it's
Speaker 1: very it's so it's kind of the human nature of
Speaker 1: it to just say like, well, those people are different. Well,
Speaker 1: it alienates them from you and you from them. So well,
Speaker 1: there's also the blood libel thing too, you know, the
Speaker 1: I mean, there were there are lots of really really
Speaker 1: nasty stereotypes about Jews and it's circulated in Eastern Europe
Speaker 1: for years, the blood libel being you know what that
Speaker 1: is that the Jews had would would kidnap and exanguinate
Speaker 1: Christian children and use their blood to make mots of
Speaker 1: like matza cakes. So yeah, yeah, well there's but there's
Speaker 1: the other aspect of this as well, where we kind
Speaker 1: of get into the the potential of police may have
Speaker 1: apprehended the ripper and there was one credible witness, but
Speaker 1: they were both Jewish, and it is part of Jewish
Speaker 1: law that you can't testify against each other. So there's
Speaker 1: there's that aspect of it as well. There is that
Speaker 1: actually part of Jewish law. Yeah, yeah, it's in the Bible.
Speaker 1: There's also some kind of weird things with the translation
Speaker 1: of this statement because there's a double negative and there's
Speaker 1: a huge misspelling. So there are some people that think
Speaker 1: that with the double negative, the phrase means was was
Speaker 1: meant to mean that the Jews would not take responsibility
Speaker 1: for anything. There are also people who suggest that Jews
Speaker 1: spelled that way is actually like a slang word for two,
Speaker 1: which I don't know what that would make that whole
Speaker 1: thing mean. There's also some kind of like massionic Freemason
Speaker 1: interpretation there no matter what, and you know all that
Speaker 1: Richard kind of tell us because he tells it better.
Speaker 1: It was destroyed before there could be a good record.
Speaker 1: You know, photographs existed at the time, but there's no
Speaker 1: photographs of this graffiti. And you know, Richard says, why
Speaker 1: So when that message was found, Sir Charles Warren, who
Speaker 1: was the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, he was horrified because at
Speaker 1: six o'clock that morning, you were going to have the
Speaker 1: Petticoat Lane Market around that doorway, and it was going
Speaker 1: to bring hundreds of gentile buyers or even thousands into
Speaker 1: an area and to a market that was staffed largely
Speaker 1: by Jewish storeholders, and how the building where he was
Speaker 1: found that was Jewish flats as well. So what he
Speaker 1: thought was, if that's on the wall in the morning,
Speaker 1: we're going to have riots that were innocent Jews will
Speaker 1: be will be attacked by the mob. So he destroyed
Speaker 1: the message, he had it raised before anybody could see
Speaker 1: it the next morning, and that's fed into the conspiracy
Speaker 1: that Sir Charles Warren, being the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, that
Speaker 1: he's done it to cover the fact that the Jewey's
Speaker 1: might have been reference to a Masonic ritual. But it
Speaker 1: probably was. I mean, the different officers who saw it's
Speaker 1: some said it looked faded as they've been there for
Speaker 1: some time. My personal belief is it was coincidence. It
Speaker 1: was already in the doorway. Ripple just happened to drop
Speaker 1: the apron in that doorway. What's not often pointed out
Speaker 1: is that there was lots of racist graffiti against the
Speaker 1: Jews going up in the streets at the time because
Speaker 1: they were scapegoats. So it's probably just a piece of
Speaker 1: that graffiti. But it feeds nice the way the fact
Speaker 1: the misspelling the ju W e s it's that misspelling
Speaker 1: that's seen it turn up as part of the Masonic
Speaker 1: ritual and stuff like that, So you don't he probably
Speaker 1: don't think the Reppert was Jewish, then, right, I I
Speaker 1: think he might well have been. I certainly because Metzki
Speaker 1: was certainly po po polished jew so him and his
Speaker 1: family had come over. And I think, actually it says
Speaker 1: one thing we don't know about the police from quite
Speaker 1: early on, when when they realized that if they kept
Speaker 1: pushing that that this this theory they were looking for
Speaker 1: sort of a Jewish immigrant, this could lead to anti
Speaker 1: Jewish rioting and programs, and innocent people would be killed.
Speaker 1: So I think if the police did catch him and
Speaker 1: he was Jewish and they couldn't try him so you
Speaker 1: had to go to an asylum, I think the police
Speaker 1: probably would have covered it up because they would have
Speaker 1: had full scale rioting in the East End and innocent
Speaker 1: people would have died. So I think from that point
Speaker 1: of view, the police show themselves to be quite enlightened.
Speaker 1: So I think there's a good possibility that he was
Speaker 1: as I say, And if it was Aaron kause Minsky,
Speaker 1: which of all the suspects, I mean he's up there.
Speaker 1: Because the two highest ranking officers seemed to believe, definitely
Speaker 1: believed he was the killer, then I think we have
Speaker 1: to believe it, but say it's interesting and had they
Speaker 1: revealed it and then said, well, we're not going to
Speaker 1: prosecute because he's going to an asylnum and we haven't
Speaker 1: got the evidence that we need that they would have
Speaker 1: had rioting, and I think that's what the police were
Speaker 1: terrified of. Now we get to the part of the
Speaker 1: story where we look at the suspects of who could
Speaker 1: have done this, some of the some of the and
Speaker 1: there's there there's a huge smattering of potential and I
Speaker 1: emphasize the word potential suspect. I want to like suffice
Speaker 1: to say that there is an entire Wikipedia article dedicated
Speaker 1: only to the suspects in this case, and it is huge.
Speaker 1: It includes George Clooney, by the way. Well, here's the
Speaker 1: thing is that we we brought up a couple of
Speaker 1: questions to Richard that he had some really good input on.
Speaker 1: And the things that that we wanted to kind of
Speaker 1: find out was one, why did the ripper do it?
Speaker 1: You know, what was his motivation? Um? And then the
Speaker 1: next was of course, why are there so many suspects?
Speaker 1: And like I said, he had some really good things
Speaker 1: to say. To be honest, I don't think there was
Speaker 1: a motive. I think it was just purely for the
Speaker 1: pleasure of the kills. There's all sorts of theories, the
Speaker 1: theories that he he had been he had caught a
Speaker 1: disease off a prostitute, and he was his revenge. There's
Speaker 1: a theory that he wanted to rid the East End
Speaker 1: of prostitution. There's a wonderful theory that George Bernard Shaw
Speaker 1: first put forward that he was a social reformer and
Speaker 1: he did the murders to expose the horrible conditions in
Speaker 1: the area. So, which is an intriguing one progressive this
Speaker 1: is it. He was just saying, you know, and no
Speaker 1: one's listening, so that I'll do something that will make
Speaker 1: people sit up and take notice. And they certainly did
Speaker 1: sit up and take notice. But really I just think
Speaker 1: he was just probably some nobody living in the area.
Speaker 1: He had he had voices in his head and every sort,
Speaker 1: and those voices got too much and he went out
Speaker 1: and murder. And for the rest of the time he
Speaker 1: was probably somebody who people living next door people who
Speaker 1: saw him thought, you know, he's eccentric, but he's harmless,
Speaker 1: and and that was it. And that's often what these
Speaker 1: serialal has turned out to be. It's often when when
Speaker 1: they brought to justice, or if they're brought to justice,
Speaker 1: it's often the last person you've ever expected it to be.
Speaker 1: So you were saying, you kind of think the voices
Speaker 1: in his head. That kind of leads me to think
Speaker 1: maybe something like schizophrenia. Yes, as I say, it could
Speaker 1: go in any form of illness, schizophrenis seems highly likely.
Speaker 1: The interesting about kause Minski is that we from what
Speaker 1: we know of him when he is in the asylum,
Speaker 1: he's not in the In fact, he's put down as
Speaker 1: non violent, so he just doesn't seem the sort of
Speaker 1: the sild who would did. However, after stress that the
Speaker 1: kause Mensky we know is the Kazminski from eight one onwards.
Speaker 1: We don't know what he was like in eight Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, he could have his condition could have deteriorated
Speaker 1: by eighteen ninety one a great deal. But the only
Speaker 1: violence he's ever put it was shown to have done,
Speaker 1: is to throw a chair at an attendant the asylum.
Speaker 1: So he doesn't seem home assylum, and there's other suspects
Speaker 1: who most certainly were homicidal. So it's it's interesting. We'll
Speaker 1: say it's just one of those things that we'll just
Speaker 1: never know. I'm just curious why why has the list
Speaker 1: of potential suspects grown so exponentially. The main the main
Speaker 1: reason is because he wasn't caught, So anybody can come
Speaker 1: up with a person. I mean, what what a lot
Speaker 1: of writers do is they get their suspect and then
Speaker 1: they make the facts that their suspect. There's very few
Speaker 1: writers actually do it the other way around, which is
Speaker 1: what should be done. Get the facts and then sorry,
Speaker 1: get the facts and then look at who the facts
Speaker 1: lead to. The point is if you go to a
Speaker 1: publisher and so I want to write a book on
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper, They're only really consider you if if
Speaker 1: you've got a suspect, and the more dramatic the suspect is,
Speaker 1: then the more chance you've got that book being published
Speaker 1: and you know, and then the book becoming a best seller. So,
Speaker 1: like I said, that's that's that's a lot of good information.
Speaker 1: And I really like the points that that Richards brought up.
Speaker 1: Now we're gonna look at a couple of the suspects,
Speaker 1: again are too many to really go into. We're gonna
Speaker 1: go into a couple of them, and we're not going
Speaker 1: to talk about the royal family or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Well maybe I actually I I'm gonna go into that
Speaker 1: one a little bit because I find that one fun.
Speaker 1: It is fun. It's a fun lark and the things
Speaker 1: that that that get brought up are pretty humorous. But
Speaker 1: let's let's not go there yet. So let's start off
Speaker 1: with the first one that we've got on our list,
Speaker 1: which Montague John Drew. Yeah. Uh, Montague, who, by the way,
Speaker 1: I don't believe was the killer, but let me but
Speaker 1: he's still believed by some people to be the killer. Uh.
Speaker 1: He was from an upper class background. He studied at
Speaker 1: Oxford worked as an assistant schoolmaster, and while he was
Speaker 1: doing that, he studied law and he became a barrister
Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty five U and for reasons unknown and
Speaker 1: November eighteen eighty eight he lost his job at the
Speaker 1: school where he was a school of monster for reasons unknown. Again,
Speaker 1: as I said in on December thirty one, eight eight,
Speaker 1: his body was found in the Tamas River. Unfortunately, he
Speaker 1: had stones in his pockets, which apparently it kept his
Speaker 1: body submerged for about a month. So he apparently went
Speaker 1: into the river early in December, and he was thirty
Speaker 1: one at the time of his death. And that wasn't
Speaker 1: just just as another bit of history, that was not
Speaker 1: uncommon at that time for people to go into the
Speaker 1: Thames and not be found for a while. And the
Speaker 1: Thames is a very nice, relatively clean river today, was
Speaker 1: not at the time. Again, as Joe talked about tanneries, breweries,
Speaker 1: all these things, all of their in open sewers, all
Speaker 1: dumping into the Thames. So it's a nasty river. So
Speaker 1: nobody wants to go looking for someone they think might
Speaker 1: have gone into the river because you don't know it,
Speaker 1: you'll come back out. Yeah, and I'm sure it reeks.
Speaker 1: People probably didn't even want to get close to the
Speaker 1: river back not safe drinking water. Yeah. Yeah. The contents
Speaker 1: of his pockets, he had a train ticket data December one.
Speaker 1: He had sixteen pounds that's that's British pounds, not sixty
Speaker 1: pounds of gold, but he had sixteen He had gold
Speaker 1: worth sixteen pounds British or sterling. I guess would be
Speaker 1: a bit way to put it. And he also had
Speaker 1: a check for fifty pounds. Uh. And by the way,
Speaker 1: this was a lot of money in those days. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so he was carrying a lot of cash that
Speaker 1: was that was still in his pockets. Yeah, in the pockets. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he was a robbery and murder was obviously not
Speaker 1: amotive here. Um. He his state was valued at about
Speaker 1: a quarter of a million dollars pounds in today's numbers.
Speaker 1: So uh, financial privation was probably not a motive for
Speaker 1: the suicide. If he wasn't indeed a suicide. It was
Speaker 1: ruled suicide after the inquest. Apparently his family had depressed
Speaker 1: a mental issues. His grandmother committed suicide, his attempted suicide,
Speaker 1: his sister later long after his death, killed herself, and
Speaker 1: also there was a note that he left which read quote,
Speaker 1: since Friday, I felt that I was going to be
Speaker 1: like mother and the best thing for me to do
Speaker 1: was die. So I'm thinking that perhaps he actually did
Speaker 1: commit suicide, but his death coincided with the end of
Speaker 1: the Ripper murders, which is why sometime after the fact
Speaker 1: that it didn't have it right away, but eventually years
Speaker 1: later people started putting two and two together and saying, hey, golly,
Speaker 1: he killed himself right at the same time the murders ended.
Speaker 1: I don't believe that there's no cred I just don't
Speaker 1: believe there's any credible evidence that he was actually the Ripper.
Speaker 1: What do you guys think, any any opinions there? The
Speaker 1: timing is the convenience. But yeah, and if we're going
Speaker 1: by like people who died around the same time exactly,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of them. There's a lot of people
Speaker 1: I know exactly. And so I think it's a kind
Speaker 1: of a slander on this guy's memory that he's been
Speaker 1: suggested as possibly being the Ripper, because there's absolutely no
Speaker 1: evidence for it. But and yet still he is considered
Speaker 1: to be a prime candidate as the Ripper, unbelievably. So
Speaker 1: the next candidate that we've got is a gentleman by
Speaker 1: the name of Michael ostrog And he wasn't a suspect again,
Speaker 1: kind of like Montague, he wasn't a suspect that came
Speaker 1: out right away. Instead, he came up several years later
Speaker 1: from a letter that was written that's been referred to
Speaker 1: or or called now the MacNaughton memoranda. The memoranda says
Speaker 1: Michael ostrog a mad Russian doctor and a convict, and
Speaker 1: unquestionably a homicidal maniac. This man was said to have
Speaker 1: habitually been cruel to women and and for a long
Speaker 1: time was known to have carried about with him surgical
Speaker 1: knives and other instruments. His antecedents were the very worst,
Speaker 1: and his whereabouts at the time of the White Chapel
Speaker 1: murders could never be satisfactorily accounted for what he might
Speaker 1: have been unstable, but nobody could ever pin the name
Speaker 1: on him. And again, as it was, he came up
Speaker 1: later on. But he was a petty criminal. So this
Speaker 1: is my again, this is my issue with him being
Speaker 1: called the suspect. He was a petty criminal. He was
Speaker 1: never known to be a violent criminal. He was in
Speaker 1: and out of jail for petty theft, but never murder.
Speaker 1: And he was arrested for theft in July of eighteen
Speaker 1: eighty seven and sentenced to six months of hard labor,
Speaker 1: So that's from September eight eight seven forward, released on
Speaker 1: March tenth of eighteen eighty eight, So this is before
Speaker 1: the murders happened, and he was quote unquote cured of
Speaker 1: his petty theft habit. Well, the problem is is that
Speaker 1: he not too long after that, was arrested and sentenced
Speaker 1: to two years in prison for theft in Paris on
Speaker 1: the eighteenth of November, which is before the killing stop.
Speaker 1: So that's why I have a problem with with Ostrog
Speaker 1: being keyed in as one of the major suspects. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would make sense. Okay, so much for your week, candidate.
Speaker 1: Let me give you another week candidate here. George Chapman.
Speaker 1: George Chapman was also known as the Burrow poisoner. He
Speaker 1: was He was a Polish London with an unpronuncible name.
Speaker 1: His his last name was I'm not going to pronounce
Speaker 1: his entire full name, but the surname was Klausowski or Klosowski.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, there's lots of kind Klosowski. I think
Speaker 1: that there's the best way to pronounce it. But he
Speaker 1: was arrested supposedly, and I've got conflicting information about this,
Speaker 1: and he was supposed he was arrested in question regarding
Speaker 1: the Ripper murders. He had training and surgery and warsaw
Speaker 1: and worked there as a doctor's assistant until about December
Speaker 1: eighteen eighty six and to the best of our knowledge,
Speaker 1: he arrived in London in eighty eight. He married while
Speaker 1: he was in London. Apparently liked to play the field.
Speaker 1: He had several mistresses, three of whom he murdered by
Speaker 1: poison later on. This is well after the whole track
Speaker 1: the Ripper thing was done. The murders took place in
Speaker 1: nineteen o one and nineteen o two. An investigation into
Speaker 1: the last murder Fount revealed that the death was due
Speaker 1: to poison. So the bodies of the previous mistresses were
Speaker 1: exhumed and tested, and well, it turns off he poised
Speaker 1: in them too, and so he was tried for the
Speaker 1: murder of the last one, whose name was Maud Marsh
Speaker 1: and I was convicted and was hanged in April nineteen
Speaker 1: o three. So why is he suspected to be the Ripper? Well,
Speaker 1: here are the reasons. A Scotland or detective name Frederick
Speaker 1: Aberleine said that he was his chief suspect, and the
Speaker 1: reasons were that he had questioned his wife and the
Speaker 1: wife told police that he would often go out for
Speaker 1: night or at night for hours on end. Another reason
Speaker 1: is that he arrived in Whitechapel at about the same
Speaker 1: time the murders began and left to go to America
Speaker 1: about the same time that the murders ended. His description
Speaker 1: matched out of the mass and the man last seen
Speaker 1: with Mary Keller Kelly, which we've talked about. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: description is uh, you know, to my mind, kind of bogus. Yeah. Uh,
Speaker 1: he was violent and this is kind of documented. He
Speaker 1: was misogynistic. Okay, So again, Frederick Aberlein, the Scotland er detective,
Speaker 1: said that for those reasons, he believed that he was
Speaker 1: the best ripper suspect. But I think it's pretty thin.
Speaker 1: I mean, as far as him going out at night
Speaker 1: for hours on end, well, the guy was a philanderer,
Speaker 1: of course. Of course he left to go out for
Speaker 1: a night, you know, and and have sex with his mistresses.
Speaker 1: Of course he did so. And that doesn't really mean
Speaker 1: anything to me as far as the other stuff goes.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just none of it really is much
Speaker 1: in the way of Evans. Well, sorry, he's a weak candidate.
Speaker 1: Are you guys ready for a strong candidate? Yeah, he's
Speaker 1: already Yeah, are ready? Aaron Kosminsky, I've heard of this guy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you may recognize him. He's the one who like a
Speaker 1: couple of months ago, DNA evidence quote proved was the ripper.
Speaker 1: He was a Russian Polish barber. He emigrated to England
Speaker 1: in the eighteen eighties, and he did indeed live in
Speaker 1: White Chapel in eighty eight and he was Jewish. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and like give it up front, modern detectives,
Speaker 1: this is my like big problem with him. Modern detectives
Speaker 1: aren't sure that this is like that Cosminsky is the
Speaker 1: Cosminski that police suspected back in the eighteen late eighteen nineties.
Speaker 1: But I'll talk about that in a little minute. Kase
Speaker 1: Minsky was in and out of a sane asylums and
Speaker 1: institutions most of his life. One could assume that, like
Speaker 1: in this day and age currently and you know, the teens,
Speaker 1: if somebody was in and out of mental institutions, they
Speaker 1: wouldn't then be allowed to like be barbers moments like
Speaker 1: around people's next But these were different days, um, and
Speaker 1: you know, his insanity took the form of auditory hallucinations,
Speaker 1: paranoid fear of being fed by other people that actually
Speaker 1: was so bad that it drove him to pick up
Speaker 1: and eat food that people dropped as litter and he
Speaker 1: refused to wash uh, and the cause of his insanity
Speaker 1: was cited as um self abe. Yeah, that which we
Speaker 1: now know, let's be honest, is not like so much
Speaker 1: cause of insanity as like sanity. Yeah exactly. But yeah,
Speaker 1: the that was that was I mean, when I was
Speaker 1: a kid, I mean, self abuse was supposedly got to
Speaker 1: create issues for you. Yeah. So in February of eight year,
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen, self abuse, masturbation. Yeah, okay, I'm just making
Speaker 1: sure I understood. Not that I'm trying to make dis gratuitous,
Speaker 1: but I just wanted to make I understood your story
Speaker 1: looks on your face like self abuse wink. Okay, in
Speaker 1: a story where we've talked about a man cutting uteruses
Speaker 1: out of women, masturbation, that's a bridge too far. That's
Speaker 1: a bridge too I can see it. Though. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like it's kind of like the gateway drug to
Speaker 1: like mass murder and stuff like that. So I guess.
Speaker 1: In February of nineteen nineteen, kause Minsky, he was institutionalized
Speaker 1: at this point, had been for a number of years.
Speaker 1: His illness had driven him down to a startling ninety
Speaker 1: six pounds, and he died in March of that year
Speaker 1: in in a mental institution. Right, So, the Cosminsky connection
Speaker 1: to the Ripper murders wasn't really established until a couple
Speaker 1: of years later when people were going through old records.
Speaker 1: Um A constable apparently in nineteen eighteen ninety four wrote
Speaker 1: a lotter to his daughter saying that Cosminski had been
Speaker 1: a suspect that no first name had been given. The
Speaker 1: letter stated that Cosminski was a suspect because he had
Speaker 1: quote a great hatred of women with strong homicidal tendencies.
Speaker 1: And I'll be honest, nothing in any records of of
Speaker 1: Aaron Cosminski, the man that we're talking about right now,
Speaker 1: suggests that he was violent in any way. The only
Speaker 1: little spate of violence he had was he threw a
Speaker 1: chair at a nurse once. And he was in and
Speaker 1: out of institutions a lot. Most records say that he
Speaker 1: was kind of um, yeah, he was like he was
Speaker 1: actually scared of people a little bit. He didn't he
Speaker 1: was actually scared, you know, as I said, he was
Speaker 1: scared of like people, He didn't want to be fed, like,
Speaker 1: he was scared of interacting on like an emotional level
Speaker 1: with other human beings. He didn't ever attack anybody. He
Speaker 1: would just kind of like would sit in his cell
Speaker 1: and be quiet a lot. A few years later, Commissioner
Speaker 1: wrote a book in which he said that the ripper
Speaker 1: was a low class Polish Jew. And um, before we
Speaker 1: even get into the DNA evidence part, uh doctor's notes.
Speaker 1: As I said, I'll describe Kasminski as harmless. Also, he
Speaker 1: spoke mostly Ish when he was locked up, which indicates
Speaker 1: that his English was likely not very good. Um, which
Speaker 1: means that it would have probably been pretty hard for
Speaker 1: him to lure women into alleys, to be a john
Speaker 1: of any kind. But you the other the other big
Speaker 1: thing for me is that Aaron Cosminski wasn't put away
Speaker 1: until eight um, and the murder stopped in That's kind
Speaker 1: of key, yeah, he the murders should have gone on
Speaker 1: for longer. Yeah. And then we come to the DNA
Speaker 1: evidence part of this, and I guess we'll let Richard
Speaker 1: explain a little bit about what the DNA evidence is about,
Speaker 1: and then I'll I'll talk about it a little bit after.
Speaker 1: You know, he kind of describes how the evidence quote
Speaker 1: evidence came about to begin with. He can do it
Speaker 1: way better than I can, you know. And for the
Speaker 1: DNA evidence. I loved when we when we asked Richard
Speaker 1: that question, his initial response was my favorite party. I
Speaker 1: was hoping you wouldn't ask that one. We have to
Speaker 1: the DNA. It's the evidence is interesting. Basically, it's a
Speaker 1: shoal that purports to be the show that Katherine knows
Speaker 1: was wearing, and it was reportedly found next to her body,
Speaker 1: picked up my police officer and taken home, and it's
Speaker 1: passed down through generations of the family and finally it
Speaker 1: was auctioned in I believe it was two thousand and
Speaker 1: seven when it was bought by Russell Edwards, who's the
Speaker 1: man behind the new book on it, and he then
Speaker 1: had it subjected to DNA testing and he then matched
Speaker 1: the DNA to a descendant of Katherine Eddo's. It was
Speaker 1: a descendant of Aaron Kazminski. The only problem is he
Speaker 1: hasn't told us. He's refusing to say who the descendant
Speaker 1: of Aaron Kasmnski is, so historically we can't really check
Speaker 1: the veracity of that. It purports that on the shore
Speaker 1: they found our Aaron cos or they found the DNA
Speaker 1: evidence to suggest that Aaron Kasminski had been near the
Speaker 1: shore but even if his DNA is on the shore,
Speaker 1: that it doesn't prove that he murdered Katherinettos, just that
Speaker 1: he was somewhere, you know, that he met Katherinettos and
Speaker 1: what since what what are occupation asked that he that
Speaker 1: he'd been with Katharinetto's So, in my opinion, the shold
Speaker 1: the shore doesn't actually prove anything, but it's it's interesting.
Speaker 1: I mean, it keeps the case going, it keeps the
Speaker 1: interest in the case, and it adds an experiment to it.
Speaker 1: So let's just say it's interesting that it say that
Speaker 1: the two mating officers do seem to have thought that
Speaker 1: Kasminski and so I would say, yeah, it's it's interesting,
Speaker 1: but it's not conclusive, and it's it's far from conclusive.
Speaker 1: And I think we'll never know for sure because so
Speaker 1: much of the evidence has gone you know, I'm with him,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll say upfront, I don't buy this whole
Speaker 1: DNA evidence thing. Um, there are a lot of problems
Speaker 1: with it. You know, they got the DNA off the
Speaker 1: shawl that supposedly maybe belonged to one of the victims.
Speaker 1: We've kind of discussed this. Not only is that week,
Speaker 1: but there's like no chain of evidence for the shaw
Speaker 1: the study or the evidence hasn't been pure reviewed. Also,
Speaker 1: as a fun fact, the news broke in, uh the
Speaker 1: Daily Mail, which you may or may not recognize as
Speaker 1: a British tabloid. That's like where the results were first published.
Speaker 1: That's a little sketchy and world. Well actually, you know,
Speaker 1: in fact, one of our own Oregonian reporters, Susannah Bowdman,
Speaker 1: puts it, the Daily Mails reporting on science and scientific
Speaker 1: evidence is let's say, not known to be robust. Is
Speaker 1: like yes, actually, and the thing to remember too is
Speaker 1: that you know, nobody knows who this shawl or whatever
Speaker 1: it was belonged to, if it was We're Killers, or
Speaker 1: if it was the victims, if it was the victims,
Speaker 1: and if it had some quote unquote DNA evidence. Uh,
Speaker 1: well she was prostitutes, so it could have had d
Speaker 1: evidence from all kinds of guys on Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: guess so as a final nail, mcoffin Richard brings this
Speaker 1: point up, and we don't even know, in all honesty,
Speaker 1: we don't even know that was her short. It's it's
Speaker 1: it's one of those interesting things, and it's it's passed
Speaker 1: through a lot of different people. I mean a lot
Speaker 1: of people have had it. I suspect, although I can't
Speaker 1: you know, well, I don't know for certain, but it's
Speaker 1: been it's been handled. And there's also rumors that her
Speaker 1: sentence handled to the conference. Whether whether that's true or not,
Speaker 1: that's in dispute. But certainly the photographs of Russell holding
Speaker 1: the shawl up, it's not banked, it's not you know,
Speaker 1: it's just there. There's no cross contaminations. Also a possibility
Speaker 1: to look at as well. And it here's my one
Speaker 1: last final huge problem with Aaron Cosminski is Aaron David Cohen.
Speaker 1: You guys, did did he come up in your research
Speaker 1: at all? No, that name doesn't. So it turns out
Speaker 1: Aaron Cohen is a name that asylums used when names
Speaker 1: like for example, Kosminsky would have been too hard to pronounce,
Speaker 1: or like the person admitting that person to an asylum
Speaker 1: was lazy. It was like it was like a John Doe. Okay,
Speaker 1: they were like, that name is too hard to spell.
Speaker 1: We're just gonna say you're Cohen from now on. So
Speaker 1: Aaron David Cohen a k A. Nathan Kozminski was a
Speaker 1: bootmaker in Whitechapel in the area until on the twelfth
Speaker 1: of December. He was institutionalized because syphilis. He was crazy,
Speaker 1: it turns out, and kind of the killing time. Kind Uh.
Speaker 1: It's hard to tell because you know, records are sketchy,
Speaker 1: but I recommend a Google on this guy. He was violent.
Speaker 1: He was violent against women, he was violent against nurses.
Speaker 1: He went kind of crazy. He was institutionalized just right
Speaker 1: after the like conical murders. I can say that word
Speaker 1: tonight ended. His last name was Kiminski instead of Kosminski.
Speaker 1: He was a polished Jew who was a bootmaker who
Speaker 1: wore a leather apron at the time. I think that,
Speaker 1: you know, if we're talking about like strong Kosminsky, I
Speaker 1: I suggest David in the name Minsky has been spelled
Speaker 1: many ways, and there's been a lot of conjecture over
Speaker 1: which Kosminski was. So I think that David Cohen is
Speaker 1: a huge problem for the Kosminsky situation. Yeah, no, it's
Speaker 1: all confused. I mean, what's his name, Like the same
Speaker 1: thing with Klosowski was a k. George Chapman. I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, they've all got these kind of like
Speaker 1: similar sounding names and it's just a big jumble. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree. Yeah, So anyway, I think I think we'd
Speaker 1: agree that the ripper was probably not just kidding. No.
Speaker 1: I mean I have I have an outlier that I'd
Speaker 1: like to bring up that we've talked about a little bit.
Speaker 1: And you know, he's not accepted as a serious. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's have it because I've got some not so serious Yeah,
Speaker 1: And we talked about him a little bit. George Hutchinson,
Speaker 1: the dude who like stood outside of Mary Kelly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then like and then was like, yeah, no, his
Speaker 1: eyelashes were black. I think, you know, as previously stated,
Speaker 1: on November twelve, George went to the London Police to
Speaker 1: make a statement about the November nine killing Mary Jane Kelly.
Speaker 1: He gave a super detailed description which we just talked
Speaker 1: about and nobody really believes this description. And in fact,
Speaker 1: one of the inspectors said that, uh, maybe maybe George
Speaker 1: was trying to cover his tracks, or maybe maybe George
Speaker 1: was you know actually a lot of it's not uncommon
Speaker 1: for sir killers to insert themselves into the investigation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was I mean, that's kind of the conjecture here,
Speaker 1: is that like he was like, oh, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: he got a great look at him and this is
Speaker 1: exactly what he looked like, and but he wanted to
Speaker 1: be a part of it. The other thing is that
Speaker 1: he was he was pretty broke and at the time
Speaker 1: he would have made a whole lot of money selling
Speaker 1: his story to the newspaper. But he is brought up
Speaker 1: as like a vague kind of there's not a whole
Speaker 1: lot of information on him, but it could. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's possible, possible, not plausible possible. The next outlier
Speaker 1: that we've got is what's often referred to as the
Speaker 1: Royal conspiracy and the Freemason connection. And I could walk
Speaker 1: through that, but we we talked with Richard about this,
Speaker 1: and I really like the way he puts it. We're
Speaker 1: actually gonna have Richard explained the Royal conspiracy and then
Speaker 1: how that ties in with the Freemasons. The classic one
Speaker 1: here has causes the Royal conspiracy and the fact it
Speaker 1: might have been a member of the royal family, which
Speaker 1: is one of my favorites. This is it. It's been
Speaker 1: around since the fifties, the Royal family theory. The member
Speaker 1: of the royal family in question was Prince Albert, ed
Speaker 1: with Victor, who was Queen Victoria's grandson and would have
Speaker 1: been King of England except he died in eight But
Speaker 1: we know his whereabouts on the knights of most of
Speaker 1: the murders, and he I mean the knights of the
Speaker 1: double murder. He wasn't even in London, so we know
Speaker 1: where he was. He was, so that he probably wasn't.
Speaker 1: And then that comes into the Royal conspiracy theory that
Speaker 1: Prince Albert Edward Victor had had a child by his
Speaker 1: mistress Annie Elizabeth Crook. The Freemasons had broken the family
Speaker 1: up because the chart that it's all to do with
Speaker 1: her being a Catholic and everything. The Masons had broken
Speaker 1: the family up. The child was smuggled to safety by
Speaker 1: their servant, girl Mary Kelly, who brought it to the
Speaker 1: East end of London, and then she told the felling
Speaker 1: with a gaggle of drunken prostitutes, told them what she knew,
Speaker 1: and they started black men in the royal family. So
Speaker 1: the Mason set out to silence all the prostitutes, and
Speaker 1: they did it with the royal physician, Sir William Gold,
Speaker 1: who went around in a carriage and depending on what
Speaker 1: film version that tempts them to the carriage by showing
Speaker 1: them bunches of grapes and then they get murdered and
Speaker 1: Mary Kelly is the last victim. So with that, the
Speaker 1: murders coming to an end because there's no longer the
Speaker 1: threat of the royal family or society being blackmailed. Wonderful theory,
Speaker 1: but it's probably just a spiracy theory. That's a fun theory,
Speaker 1: but theory it doesn't. Yeah, but it doesn't bring it
Speaker 1: in account. Why than the mutilations took place? Now, I mean,
Speaker 1: as I said, I would love to believe it was
Speaker 1: a deranged ancestor of Prince Charles, but no, you know,
Speaker 1: you bring up another good point there, which is the
Speaker 1: Mason's and I've I've heard them refer seen them referred
Speaker 1: to in a lot of this. And is that just
Speaker 1: based mostly from this, this royal theory or it mostly
Speaker 1: comes out of that. The whole thing came in well,
Speaker 1: first of all came up with it was Jack the
Speaker 1: Ripe of the Final Solution and it was a book
Speaker 1: by Stephen Knight, and Stephen Knight was based on a
Speaker 1: chatterman called Joseph Sicker to what the claim was that
Speaker 1: the Joseph sick had claimed that he was he was
Speaker 1: related in some way to it, and so he went
Speaker 1: and so he gave the theory to Stephen Knight. Stephen
Speaker 1: Knight and then developed the theory both on both of
Speaker 1: them and are dead. But it's it's it. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's wonderful to think that it's it's a government conspiracy,
Speaker 1: that the Mason's got involved, and that everyone did it.
Speaker 1: And of course people like people didn't like that type
Speaker 1: of conspiracy theory. But it's it's highly unlikely. But as
Speaker 1: I say, but the Masons being such a shadowy organization,
Speaker 1: you know that everyone's got this, They've got this mystique
Speaker 1: about them and all the rituals they perform and everything.
Speaker 1: So it's it's I mean, this is the whole process
Speaker 1: of murder. But I decree the Christopher Plumber film also
Speaker 1: the Front Health film as well. But let's say it's
Speaker 1: it's it's good entertainment, but as historical fact, it leaves
Speaker 1: a lot to be desired. But it is cool though,
Speaker 1: And if you could find a tire to like, say
Speaker 1: the Knights Templar and the Holy Grail, that would be
Speaker 1: even more awesome. How it's fantastic. I mean, it's all
Speaker 1: you need is that, you know, maybe have Princess Diana
Speaker 1: involved in it as well. Yeah, I'm gonna work on that.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna come and get Rolls Well involved, you know,
Speaker 1: get a few alien abductions and maybe having escaping on
Speaker 1: the Titanic, and you've done it so well. So anyway,
Speaker 1: I'm not convinced. Well, I I also have I have
Speaker 1: one other outlier that I liked that I wanted to
Speaker 1: bring up because there's actually some credence to it. You
Speaker 1: got to talk about the aliens, No, I'm not. We're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about a guy by the name of Carl
Speaker 1: fine Bomb. Okay, Carl fine Bomb. I'm not sure how
Speaker 1: to pronounces yeah, fining bomb. Okay. Well, anyway, Carl was
Speaker 1: executed in the electric chair on the twenty seventh of
Speaker 1: April eighteen nineties six for the brutal murder of a
Speaker 1: woman by the name of Julianna Hoffman. Carl murderer by
Speaker 1: slitting her throat. He was not able to do anything
Speaker 1: else because her son interrupted the murder and he jumped
Speaker 1: out a window onto the roof, and then Carl took
Speaker 1: off and they caught him. But here's the thing that's
Speaker 1: not his real name. We don't know. We don't know
Speaker 1: exactly what his name is. His name could be it
Speaker 1: was Anton or maybe Carl with a C or a
Speaker 1: k zon or zom or stro bomb like a stro bond,
Speaker 1: I don't know. He evidently changed his name at some point,
Speaker 1: but we don't know why. And evidently he did this
Speaker 1: on a regular basis. Where where did Well, this murder
Speaker 1: happened in the United States, so it wasn't in England.
Speaker 1: But he was a sailor and in the eighteen eighties
Speaker 1: he was you know, he had a merchant lifestyle, a
Speaker 1: marine her lifestyle, and his whereabouts aren't exactly clear. But
Speaker 1: what we know is that he supposedly could have been
Speaker 1: and would have been in the area in England at
Speaker 1: the time, in London. Uh. And then the other thing,
Speaker 1: and this is the what drew me to it. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: I said it had a lot of credence. It's actually
Speaker 1: pretty weak, but I like it anyway, is Uh. What
Speaker 1: we know is that after he was executed, as soon
Speaker 1: as his declaration of death was put out, his attorney,
Speaker 1: William Sanford Lawton, stated, I believe that Carl Feinnenbaum who
Speaker 1: you have just seen put to death in the electric chair,
Speaker 1: can easily be connected with the Jack the Ripper murders
Speaker 1: in Whitechapel. I will stake my professional reputation on that.
Speaker 1: If the police will trace this man's movements carefully for
Speaker 1: the last few years, there investigations will lead them to
Speaker 1: London and to White Chapel. But did he provide any
Speaker 1: evidence or of course not, of course not seeking attorney. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I actually I think that this guy was looking to
Speaker 1: cause a little media splash. But it is interesting that,
Speaker 1: you know it was. It wasn't just a quick slash.
Speaker 1: He really cut this lady's throat in a vicious manner
Speaker 1: while she was in bed, and we don't know where
Speaker 1: he was, and we don't know what he could have
Speaker 1: been doing that whole time. So he's just this ephemeral,
Speaker 1: mysterious person. Yeah, it could have been, But I mean,
Speaker 1: what the circumstances of this particular murder though, which it
Speaker 1: was The woman he murdered. Was she a prostitute? No? No,
Speaker 1: what how this whole thing went down? Is she was?
Speaker 1: I think it was New York Is where this took place.
Speaker 1: She needed some money, so she decided to rent out
Speaker 1: a room in her house and he was her first lodger,
Speaker 1: first and last. Yeah, it sounds like it without saying yeah,
Speaker 1: and within a day or three I if I remember
Speaker 1: the details correctly, then he committed the murder. He killed her,
Speaker 1: so he if it didn't take long. But it's just weird.
Speaker 1: I was thinking about but maybe not thinking that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm thinking probably that it's possible, but no reason
Speaker 1: to really believe. So so yeah, no, no, I I
Speaker 1: completely agree with you on there. Uh. And you know,
Speaker 1: there's the issue of and one of the things that
Speaker 1: was brought up was that it potentially if this guy
Speaker 1: wasn't it, it's but possible that the ripper was a sailor,
Speaker 1: would explain why he was out of town for weeks
Speaker 1: on end and the murders didn't happened. But my issue
Speaker 1: with that is why don't we hear about these kind
Speaker 1: of grizzly murders in other ports of call, even places
Speaker 1: that aren't super super populated. You would think that there
Speaker 1: would be record of a prostitute or a woman with
Speaker 1: her throat slit and her organs pulled out. There'd be some.
Speaker 1: It was definitely like a widely publicized thing too. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't just like, oh you only know
Speaker 1: about this in White Chaplain in London. No, the whole
Speaker 1: world was looking for this guy. They were all fascinated
Speaker 1: by him, and he was a new sensation worldwide. So
Speaker 1: you know, if one woman showed up with something like
Speaker 1: that in any other port of call, it would have
Speaker 1: set off alarm bells. I mean, it just would have. Um,
Speaker 1: it's absolutely true, although you know it might be it
Speaker 1: might be also the fact that he was a sailor,
Speaker 1: but perhaps he was also like a racist, like say,
Speaker 1: he was a German who hated the Brits, so he
Speaker 1: did a special isles to their bodies. But when he
Speaker 1: was like often you know, other other ports, he didn't
Speaker 1: he stabbed people to death, but didn't didn't sad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's possible something like that too. Yeah, No, that's that's possible.
Speaker 1: And and the big mystery about this, this whole Jack
Speaker 1: the Ripper story, is that we have this time frame
Speaker 1: where the canonical five are murdered, very short time frame,
Speaker 1: and then it stops. Yeah, and it's a little weird
Speaker 1: as to why it possibly could have stopped. And there's
Speaker 1: theories about, well, he was caught and he was committed
Speaker 1: or he committed suicide or anything like that. And and
Speaker 1: we we did put that question to Richard because we
Speaker 1: wanted to know, because he's done so much research on it,
Speaker 1: why he thought they just stopped. So suddenly the can
Speaker 1: have been there's there's a handful of reasons for the murders,
Speaker 1: because someone like this doesn't get fed up and think,
Speaker 1: while I enjoyed that, but I think I'm going to
Speaker 1: collect stamps. Now, something stopped him killing that either he
Speaker 1: got caught, he might have died. So he could have
Speaker 1: died if if I say, if he had been given
Speaker 1: a disease, he could have he could have died of
Speaker 1: that disease. He could have committed suicide. He could have
Speaker 1: been with his family who realized what had happened, and
Speaker 1: so they put him into a private assignment. That's a possibility.
Speaker 1: Now the possibilities he went somewhere else, he moved and
Speaker 1: continued killing, and they didn't make the connecting. You know,
Speaker 1: they didn't make the connection between the two, which is
Speaker 1: highly unlikely because they were looking for him all over
Speaker 1: the world. I mean, there's everyone the world over knew
Speaker 1: about these killings. So if he had gone somewhere else,
Speaker 1: the connection would have been made. The other possibilities the
Speaker 1: police did catch their man, whether they knew it was
Speaker 1: the ripper, It's possible he was arrested for another crime,
Speaker 1: went into it, went into a prison and they didn't
Speaker 1: realize who they got. Yeah, I mean, there's there's all
Speaker 1: sorts of there's all sorts of suspects who came into
Speaker 1: the area left because the other thing about the area
Speaker 1: was because it was close to the docks, so you
Speaker 1: did have a lot of each of ships shipping coming
Speaker 1: into the port of London very close to the doctor.
Speaker 1: He had foreign sailors coming in left, right and center,
Speaker 1: and you had say one of the reasons for the gaps.
Speaker 1: All the theory is that the reason for the gaps
Speaker 1: is because it could have been someone on a ship
Speaker 1: who was out of London for a period of time
Speaker 1: and then came back again and commenced murdering. The other
Speaker 1: interesting one is that the famous the Dr Tumblety, the
Speaker 1: American who's h who was arrested for acts of gross
Speaker 1: indecency and seems to have been a quite a favor
Speaker 1: favored suspect and he skipped bail when he was released
Speaker 1: from police custody. He they said, you're not going to
Speaker 1: run off are He said, no, no, no, and then
Speaker 1: he skipped bail and went to America where he was.
Speaker 1: Now the interesting about tumble Tears that Dr tumblet everybody
Speaker 1: knew where he was. The reporters were staking at his
Speaker 1: house in New York, and Inspector burn at NYPD actually
Speaker 1: had him on the valence and the reporters in America
Speaker 1: were going to him and saying, you know, in America
Speaker 1: they seem to have known that he was suspected for
Speaker 1: the Whitechapel murders, and they said, you know, is he
Speaker 1: going to go back? And he said, now, he said,
Speaker 1: what tumbled he is wanted for is not extracitable, So
Speaker 1: he couldn't have been extraunited for what he had done,
Speaker 1: which seems to have been he actually got caught up
Speaker 1: that there was this act of gross and decency with
Speaker 1: several men and that that's what he'd done, and that
Speaker 1: could he couldn't have been expracited for that. But he
Speaker 1: obviously if he had been a murder, he would have
Speaker 1: been extradited. So obviously NYPD and the London police didn't
Speaker 1: seem to think he was the Ripper. A lot of
Speaker 1: people think that he went to America and then disappeared,
Speaker 1: which is just not true. So this is awful what
Speaker 1: Jackie Ripper, just like, in general, Jackie Ripper is pretty awful.
Speaker 1: Are you gonna say he's misunderstood? No, I mean it's
Speaker 1: like an awful story. And I guess it like rounds
Speaker 1: out our October and I'm kind of honestly happy that
Speaker 1: we're time with October. Now we can go do like
Speaker 1: really interesting stuff, not creepy grizzly yeah, not weird creepy
Speaker 1: grizzly stuff. But I think, you know, we don't. I
Speaker 1: don't think we need to talk about theories. I think
Speaker 1: that's out there well, and we've talked about obviously the
Speaker 1: stuff that we kind of like, and we obviously curated
Speaker 1: this episode all so I don't think we need to.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we're pretty good. Would you guys
Speaker 1: think we're good? Yeah, I think we're there. We kid,
Speaker 1: I can't blame this one on that, So I guess
Speaker 1: you know, there will be probably a lot of links
Speaker 1: on our web, which is um of course, as always
Speaker 1: thinking Sideways podcast dot com. And by the way, of course,
Speaker 1: you know as you said, all the links are gonna
Speaker 1: be on there. We will have the link to Richard's
Speaker 1: website to company on there. And if you are if
Speaker 1: you're gonna be in in London, if you are in
Speaker 1: London and you are the tour, I've been on ripper
Speaker 1: tours and they're awesome. Yeah, those tours are fantastic and
Speaker 1: you really get to see the neighborhood and you really
Speaker 1: get to see it from the street and it really
Speaker 1: is awesome. And by the way, that doesn't doesn't rich
Speaker 1: or have a book coming out? I believe, Well, Richard
Speaker 1: has written two books, and I didn't know that he
Speaker 1: had a third. Okay, well, okay, probably on his website. Sorry,
Speaker 1: we were way off traffic. The other place you could
Speaker 1: be listening to us as iTunes, you probably are. If
Speaker 1: you are, feel free to leave us a comment in
Speaker 1: a rating. As always, we love that you know, we
Speaker 1: drop our shows every Thursday, so if it's Thursday and
Speaker 1: you realize you haven't downloaded it, you can stream a
Speaker 1: straight from Stitcher. It's always a good thing. We've also
Speaker 1: added a couple of others we have, Yeah, we've We've
Speaker 1: added tune in dot com. So we're on there. Now,
Speaker 1: I know that we are in a couple of the
Speaker 1: apps that are really popular, that the podcast apps for
Speaker 1: the iOS and the Android we've gotten on their list
Speaker 1: Fangled apps. Yeah things, We're in a bunch of places. Now.
Speaker 1: Check the website. It lists everywhere that we're available for
Speaker 1: downloads and streaming. Yeah. And you know the other place
Speaker 1: you can find us as Facebook. Um, there's a group
Speaker 1: and page. You can like us and join the group.
Speaker 1: Some good conversations happening there. Um. We also, as of
Speaker 1: this week, are on Twitter. Find us, find us, and
Speaker 1: follow us, and we'll figure out how to use this Twitter. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm the youngest one in this room, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: don't know totally how to use it. So we're going
Speaker 1: to figure it out with text messaging services yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And other than that, I don't know, but yeah. And
Speaker 1: then you can always send us an email that email addresses. Again,
Speaker 1: as always Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. We
Speaker 1: have a couple of emails that we should be reading,
Speaker 1: but this show is like two and a half hours long,
Speaker 1: so we're gonna go ahead and postpone those for just
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. I'm sorry about that whoever, you know,
Speaker 1: we replied to you, I promise we'll read you soon.
Speaker 1: It's two and a half hours is too long. So
Speaker 1: with that, I say good night by everybody to Lou
Speaker 1: George Clinty. No, I think I think we've thinking that.
Speaker 1: I think we've solved the mystery. I think we have now.
Speaker 1: Actually I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you who my suspect is.
Speaker 1: Have you noticed he made a Ripper movie number one,
Speaker 1: and you know he doesn't seem to age. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think I think, Yeah, I think John Johnny Depp is
Speaker 1: a I mean I was used to say I think
Speaker 1: it was Queen Victoria because in Colombo, well and that
Speaker 1: was getting involved. Yeah, well, you knowiced that in Pirates
Speaker 1: of the Caribbean and all the sequels, he seems to
Speaker 1: be very proficient with the play and he was addicting.
Speaker 1: His addicted to absent wasn't as well, Yeah, exactly was.
Speaker 1: It was board Hales and his brain and made him
Speaker 1: go insane. And yeah, so there you go, it's Johnny Depp.
Speaker 1: Johnny Depp done it. In fact, he certainly murdered Abiline's
Speaker 1: reputation in the film, because Abiline was nothing like Johnny Depp. Yeah,
Speaker 1: probably it's Abiline is the character who Johnny Depp played
Speaker 1: in the film. But it's it's very very very very
Speaker 1: very very very very very very very very loosely based
Speaker 1: on a BLINEAOK, a little artistic license with that one,
Speaker 1: but then again, it's a great film. It's it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's really atmospheric. And what they were setting out
Speaker 1: to do, they weren't setting out to make a documentary.
Speaker 1: They were setting out to make, you know, a good
Speaker 1: horror film. And I think they stated there they did
Speaker 1: a pretty good job indeed, And how can you not
Speaker 1: make a great horror film when you've got the actual
Speaker 1: Jack the Rippers starring in it.