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Speaker 1: Well hi, and welcome back to the podcast. If you've

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Speaker 1: been here before, if this is your first time, welcome, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm Steve as always, I'm joined by Devin Joe and

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Speaker 1: this is thinking Sideways and ladies and gentlemen. Happy Halloween October.

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Speaker 1: It is, it is, and this is this is the

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Speaker 1: final show of our Halloween sweet I know, a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks back, I gave a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: teaser and didn't tell anybody what we were doing, But

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Speaker 1: that's because we're doing it now. Yeah, and what we're

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Speaker 1: gonna look into is something that a lot and I

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Speaker 1: mean a lot of people have requested that we cover it.

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Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper, I gotta tell you too. There was

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Speaker 1: a lot of personal sacrifice for me because in researching this,

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Speaker 1: I was constantly having to change my underwear because it's scary.

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Speaker 1: It's a scary story. It is. Yeah, although luckily I'm

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Speaker 1: not a prostitute, so it seems like you're kind of

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Speaker 1: like if you're not a prostitute, you're not probably get

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Speaker 1: also like not in like London. Also it's been like

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Speaker 1: more than a years. Yeah, probably dead, might or might

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Speaker 1: not be dead. You never know. But it seemed seemed

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Speaker 1: like an appropriate story to to do for Halloween. I

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Speaker 1: imagine that most everybody is probably familiar with the story

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Speaker 1: of Jack the Ripper, but for those who don't know

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Speaker 1: it as well as others, were going to go ahead,

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Speaker 1: We're going to start at the beginning, and then we're

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Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and walk our way through the case.

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Speaker 1: And there's some things that I wasn't aware of until

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Speaker 1: I've done the research, and so I think there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of colonels of really interesting things that we're going

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Speaker 1: to bring up. You know, I gotta be honest, I

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Speaker 1: haven't been super familiar with the Jack the Ripper story.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I kind of knew it existed,

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Speaker 1: but like I, despite maybe some indications, don't necessarily love

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Speaker 1: like horror movies or stuff like that. So I've never

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Speaker 1: liked seen any of the movies that we may reference.

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Speaker 1: I didn't really ever investigate the whole Jack the Ripper thing.

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Speaker 1: So this has been like a really really interesting thing

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Speaker 1: to be researching because I literally had like no frame

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Speaker 1: of reference for this. So I would fall into the

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Speaker 1: category of people who benefit greatly from a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of explanation. Well, and the nice thing is we we

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Speaker 1: realized early on that this was such a big story

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Speaker 1: that we probably couldn't and shouldn't tackle it on our own.

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Speaker 1: So what we did is we got a little help

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Speaker 1: and we reached out and we were lucky enough to

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Speaker 1: spend some time talking with a gentleman by the name

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Speaker 1: of Richard Jones, and we we should probab Just let's here,

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Speaker 1: let's have Richard introduced himself. Yeah, I'm Richard Jones from

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Speaker 1: the Jacketer patern in London, which is rippert dot com.

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Speaker 1: I'm a jacket guide and I've also written two books

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Speaker 1: on Jack the Ripper and made three documentaries on Jack

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Speaker 1: the Ripper. All right, well let's start with London itself.

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Speaker 1: The time frame we're working in is literally just that

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Speaker 1: year pretty much pretty much just pretty short time span

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Speaker 1: of like, for example, the Acts of New Orleans that

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Speaker 1: was over eighteen months. Yeah, this is a very very

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Speaker 1: compressed time frame. And to talk about I know, this

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Speaker 1: is one of the things that you you were going

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Speaker 1: to take on, Joe, was to kind of tell us

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Speaker 1: a little bit about London at the time. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And of course, you know, you can get a lot

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Speaker 1: of you can get a lot of background an atmosphere,

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Speaker 1: you know, Sherlott Colins. The series started I think the

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Speaker 1: year before The Ripper started, and you can get a

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Speaker 1: lot of the atmosphere of London from eating those those

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Speaker 1: books and those stories and which were which are great,

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Speaker 1: by the way, I love those things when I was

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Speaker 1: a kid. Um. But and let me tell you about

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Speaker 1: the specific neighborhood. These were called the White Chapel murders.

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Speaker 1: And actually the White Chapel murders were eleven murders, of

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Speaker 1: which only about five are actually directly attributed to the Ripper.

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Speaker 1: So the neighborhood of White Chapel, let me talk about

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Speaker 1: it a little bit, was a neighborhood in the London

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Speaker 1: in London's East End, and the East End by the

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Speaker 1: late sixteenth early seventeenth century had attracted a lot of

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Speaker 1: industrial development, a lot of stuff that was kind of

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Speaker 1: smell a like foundries, slaughter houses, tanneries, breweries, and lots

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Speaker 1: of people were there because back in those days, of course,

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Speaker 1: we didn't have cars and freeways in suburbs, so you

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Speaker 1: had to live near where you worked, so there were

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Speaker 1: lots of people there. And England at this time, beginning

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Speaker 1: about the seventeenth century started a period of urbanization where

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Speaker 1: people were leaving the countryside and walking to the cities.

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Speaker 1: And you see similar phenomenon today if you go to

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Speaker 1: places like South Paulo, Brazil, same thing, people who have

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Speaker 1: just flocked to the city and they're living in hideous slums.

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Speaker 1: So that same thing happened back in England at that time.

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Speaker 1: This and this lasted until the mid nineteenth century. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And since things like foundries, breweries and tanneries and slaughter

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Speaker 1: houses tend to smell really bad, that kept rents down.

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Speaker 1: So if you're poor and from refreshing and from the countryside,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna gravitate towards the east end. And of course

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Speaker 1: that increased the poverty and over crowding that already existed

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Speaker 1: there even more. Uh in the Victorian Area era from

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Speaker 1: about eighteen forty onwards. It was made even worse by immigration,

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Speaker 1: mostly from Ireland and Eastern Europe. And so these slums

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Speaker 1: are getting extremely crowded. Impact And by the way, I

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Speaker 1: read a book about conditions in Britain at this time.

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Speaker 1: It's called Capitalism in the Story is by Friedrich Hayak.

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Speaker 1: Very good book and part of the reason for that

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Speaker 1: is that the Napoleonic Wars and stuff. There have been

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Speaker 1: massive shortages of building materials and stuff like that because

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Speaker 1: of the war, and so substandard housing was kind of

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Speaker 1: the norm, and window was crowded. Brewing him were very

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Speaker 1: much the norm. Anyway. Prostitution was endemic in this area.

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Speaker 1: In Metropolitan Police estimated that there were sixty two brothels

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Speaker 1: and roughly twelve hundred prostitutes in White Chapel alone, which

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Speaker 1: is a very small area. Yeah, it's not that big

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Speaker 1: of a neighborhood. Yeah, and that's only part of the

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Speaker 1: East End. Also, Jack London, you guys have heard of

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Speaker 1: Jack London, called the Wild and all that stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he decided to go undercover in nineteen o two. And

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Speaker 1: of course this is fourteen years after the murders, but

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Speaker 1: still I don't think things have changed probably all that

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Speaker 1: much in that time. So he went undercover in the

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Speaker 1: East End and put out old, ragged clothes and lived

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Speaker 1: among the poor for three or four months apparently, And

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Speaker 1: he actually slept in the streets and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he had he had an out. I mean

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Speaker 1: he had money, so he could actually leave and go

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Speaker 1: get a nice hotel room and take a shower or

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Speaker 1: something like that. But yeah, but he's spent time in

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Speaker 1: there and he and he and he took up and

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Speaker 1: talked to a lot with a lot of people. And

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Speaker 1: I've been reading his book about it. He wrote a

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Speaker 1: book about it called The People of the Abyss, which

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Speaker 1: I am not actually through with yet. Unfortunate. I think

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Speaker 1: it's interesting Joe did all his research by reading books. Yea, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: The People of the Abyss. But anyway, I recommend it,

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Speaker 1: Like I said, I haven't finished it yet, but it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's good reading so far. But here's how he

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Speaker 1: describes his first foray in there. It's and it's funny.

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Speaker 1: We read the book. He got to London and he's

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Speaker 1: in the better part of London. He's saying, Oh, I

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Speaker 1: want to go to the East End. Everybody says, like,

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Speaker 1: why the hell would you want to go there? He

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Speaker 1: really seriously, he gets so he gets this cabby, this

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Speaker 1: guy with a handsome, you know, horse drawn cab or thing,

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Speaker 1: and he says, I want to go to the East

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Speaker 1: End and this guy saying, where do you want to

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Speaker 1: go there? And I just want to go there, says why,

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Speaker 1: and finally talks this guy says, basically, I want to go.

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Speaker 1: I want to go to the East End, and I

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Speaker 1: want to go find a second hand store where I

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Speaker 1: can buy some radial clothes. And so they travel along

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Speaker 1: until they find one of those. And here's this description

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Speaker 1: of his first foray into the East End. Nowhere in

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Speaker 1: the streets of London may want to escape the site

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Speaker 1: of abject poverty. While five minutes walked from almost any

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Speaker 1: point will bring one to a slum. But the region

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Speaker 1: my handsome was now penetrating was one unending slum. The

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Speaker 1: streets were filled with a new and different race of people,

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Speaker 1: short of stature, and a wretched or beer sodden appearance.

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Speaker 1: Here and there larch a drunken man or woman in

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Speaker 1: the air was obscene with sounds of jangling and squabbling.

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Speaker 1: At a market tottery, old men and women were searching

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Speaker 1: in the garbage thrown in the mud for rotten potatoes,

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Speaker 1: beans and vegetables. Well. Little children clustered like flies around

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Speaker 1: a festering mass of fruit, thrusting their arms to the

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Speaker 1: shoulders into the liquid corruption and drawing forth morsels but

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Speaker 1: partially decayed, which they devoured on the spot. I know,

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Speaker 1: I know, that's life according to Jack London in the

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Speaker 1: East End. So in other words, Whitechapel was an armpit

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Speaker 1: and I looked at it just today. I went out

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Speaker 1: on Google street View and I cruised around. You ever

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Speaker 1: cruise around the streets. I've actually been there, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's not it's not as bad as it's not a

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Speaker 1: bad place. It's very busy and it's very tight quarters

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Speaker 1: compared to what we're used to here in the States. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it's not. It's not a slummy joint, but it buildings.

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Speaker 1: But no, it's not Hell on Earth by any means.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's come up a lot in the world

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Speaker 1: since then. And Richard has some really good points about

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Speaker 1: the area at the time as well, And since he

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Speaker 1: actually lives in a lot and he probably has a

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Speaker 1: lot more knowledge of it than you. Yeah, so let's

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and have here his description White Chapel.

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Speaker 1: White Chapel got a bad rap at the time. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there were parts of White Chapel that were horrible slums,

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Speaker 1: but there were parts of White Chapel that were as

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Speaker 1: good as any other parts of London. And that London

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Speaker 1: had worst slums than Whitechapel, but it was White Chapel

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Speaker 1: largely because of the Ripper murders. White Chapel got the

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Speaker 1: press coverage, and so today when we tend to think

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Speaker 1: of slum in London, we tend to focus on that area.

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Speaker 1: But there were parts of Merrily Bone, parts of notting Hill,

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Speaker 1: even parts of the City of London not too long

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Speaker 1: before the Ripper murder which were just as bad and

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Speaker 1: in some cases even worse. But as I say, because

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Speaker 1: of the press coverage, the history's focus tends to be

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Speaker 1: now on Whitechapel and the East end of London as

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Speaker 1: a whole got the You've got the agricultural revolution and

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Speaker 1: throw people off the lands, I mean this this standard,

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Speaker 1: but then you've got unemployment in it in the farmlands

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Speaker 1: of Essex and everywhere. You'd had the Irish potato famine,

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Speaker 1: so you've got the people coming over the potato famine.

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Speaker 1: Then it'll say programs, the Jewish eystated, and really the

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Speaker 1: the whole I mean London was well, it was the

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Speaker 1: wealthiest capital city in the world, as the biggest port

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Speaker 1: in the world as well, so it was a massive place.

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Speaker 1: But right on the doorstep of the City of London

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Speaker 1: the wealthiest square mile on Earth. You had these people

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Speaker 1: living in abject poverty conditions crammed into common lodging houses

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Speaker 1: and it didn't go unnoticed by a lot of people. Well,

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Speaker 1: so you probably want to talk about the murders. Huh, Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I wish probably get into the murder problems. No, I

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Speaker 1: feel like the murders aren't even like the bulk of

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Speaker 1: this story right now. I think we need to talk

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Speaker 1: about the victims. They're definitely important. And when you read

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Speaker 1: about this story, you're gonna hear about the canonical five

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Speaker 1: and those are the five main victims, and Joe kind

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Speaker 1: of touched on that a little bit in the beginning.

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Speaker 1: There are there's talk that there were other victims that

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Speaker 1: could have been ripper victims that aren't directly attributed to him,

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Speaker 1: and we're actually going to start out with one of

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Speaker 1: those victims first. Yeah, that's the thing about it. It's

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Speaker 1: it's really hard to say because it's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're living in a slum and people tend to stab

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Speaker 1: each other death and the slums a lot, so yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they do. So the first person that we're gonna talk about,

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Speaker 1: her name is Martha tabram I. Believe it's how you

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Speaker 1: pronounced her last name, Taban. She was thirty nine years old,

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Speaker 1: and like a lot of the women that we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about, she'd fallen on hard times. Uh. In

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Speaker 1: eighteen seventy five, her husband leaves her for her quote

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Speaker 1: unquote love of the drink. For thirteen years, she's with

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Speaker 1: another man. Uh he evidently used to sell trinkets, and

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Speaker 1: then eventually he uh he leaves her, and she doesn't

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Speaker 1: know what to do, so she kind of turns to

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Speaker 1: prostitution is a way to get by. And I guess

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Speaker 1: I'll just mention, you know, it's gonna start to sound

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Speaker 1: a little repetitive when do we start talking about the

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Speaker 1: history of these The story pretty much goes for all

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Speaker 1: of these women, they had a husband who left them

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Speaker 1: or died. They were with a man for a little while,

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Speaker 1: that person left them, they had to turn to prostitution.

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Speaker 1: But also they were drunks, but they had to turn

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Speaker 1: to prostitution, and because of that things maybe went a

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Speaker 1: little downhill. These are all these are all I think,

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Speaker 1: really sad stories, you know, I mean, in their searching.

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Speaker 1: A couple of these victims, it's like their lives really

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Speaker 1: could have turned out a lot better. Unfortunately, alcohol was not.

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Speaker 1: I'm not crustating against alcohology, you know, I love me

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Speaker 1: my beer, but but yeah, and it didn't serve them well.

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Speaker 1: I think another point to make is, I can't remember

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Speaker 1: the exact phrase that was used, but not all of

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Speaker 1: them were what you would say called a full time prostitute.

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Speaker 1: They would turn to it in times of desperation. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't as if they were out working the streets all

250
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Speaker 1: the time. A lot of them did other little things

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Speaker 1: to try to make money. But when money was short

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Speaker 1: and you needed a couple extra shilling, there was there

253
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Speaker 1: was an answer. Um. And Martha here was kind of

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Speaker 1: that way. She was at a full time prostitute. But

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Speaker 1: on the sixth of August she was seen out and

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Speaker 1: about with another prostitute whose nickname was Pearley Paul. They

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Speaker 1: all had, They all had great nicknames. They really did.

258
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Speaker 1: Uh And these ladies evidently they were partying with a

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Speaker 1: couple of soldiers or maybe they were sailors, It's unclear.

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Speaker 1: And around midnight they parted ways, and Peary went with

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Speaker 1: one man one way, and Martha went with the other

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Speaker 1: in the other direction. Martha took the gentleman that she

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Speaker 1: was with, if she was with a gentleman, because again

264
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Speaker 1: we're not positive, into an alley of a location known

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Speaker 1: as George Yard. And I think that this is probably

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Speaker 1: a good place to stop real fast and explain if

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Speaker 1: anybody who hasn't been to London. It's not a grid,

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Speaker 1: it's not square blocks. It is full of tiny little

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Speaker 1: alleyways and they cut in between and they twist and

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Speaker 1: they turned, so there's lots of dead ends and dark

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Speaker 1: places for business to happen, if you know what I

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Speaker 1: mean by wink wink business. So that's what she was doing.

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Speaker 1: She was going into one of these dark alleys. I

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Speaker 1: was gonna say, by the way, and I've never driven

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Speaker 1: in London. I've always been on foot there and had

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Speaker 1: been there that much. But it's like I would hate

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Speaker 1: to drive in that town. Holy crap. Oh, it's it's insane,

278
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Speaker 1: absolutely insane. But back then, Martha's body was officially found

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Speaker 1: at four five on the seventh of August, five in

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Speaker 1: the morning, at the entry of one of the buildings

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Speaker 1: in George Yard. Evidently there was several buildings. Sounds like

282
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Speaker 1: it was kind of a courtyard. But I'm not positive.

283
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Speaker 1: Several people in the night had come home and gone

284
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Speaker 1: through the entry and upstairs and that had come back down.

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Speaker 1: None of them saw her body. It wasn't until a

286
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Speaker 1: man by the name of John Reeves was leaving in

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Speaker 1: the morning and he came down the stairs and he

288
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Speaker 1: realized that there was a body laying in the entry

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Speaker 1: and it was in a puddle of blood. And uh,

290
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Speaker 1: this was four forty five in the morning. There were

291
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Speaker 1: reports of people coming in at two o'clock in the morning.

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Speaker 1: Somebody left I think like to thirty or three. They

293
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Speaker 1: didn't see her. So the window for where how she

294
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Speaker 1: could have when she could have got there is pretty narrow.

295
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,080
Speaker 1: But again, this is accounts that are over a hundred

296
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Speaker 1: and thirty years old. Yeah, from people who were likely

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Speaker 1: drunk at the time, right, and who are used to

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Speaker 1: the first thing in the morning, you're not really paying

299
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Speaker 1: attention it it's dark. You gotta remember, there's no lighting. Yeah,

300
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Speaker 1: and you're also used to people like maybe being passed

301
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Speaker 1: out in your stup or whatever that you know, you

302
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Speaker 1: would probably say, I mean, I didn't see it. I

303
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,520
Speaker 1: didn't recognize it as a corpse, but yeah, there was

304
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,360
Speaker 1: like a body I had to step over versus like, no,

305
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,680
Speaker 1: there was nothing there. It's probably worth remembering too that

306
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,680
Speaker 1: this is London eight and they didn't have street lights

307
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Speaker 1: like we have today. It was freaking dark out, very dark,

308
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Speaker 1: very dark. I mean I was there at night and

309
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Speaker 1: even with modern lighting you could do one of those

310
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Speaker 1: alleys and it's freaking dark. The medical examiner showed up

311
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Speaker 1: at five thirty in the morning and had placed the

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Speaker 1: time of death at somewhere between two thirty to two

313
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Speaker 1: forty five in the morning. Now this isn't modern forensics.

314
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,359
Speaker 1: It wasn't as if they were, you know, using a

315
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Speaker 1: thermometer to check the body temperature or doing it had

316
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,040
Speaker 1: an accurate judge of lividity things like that. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is kind of guesswork. Yeah, it was. It was

318
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Speaker 1: c s I. London was kind of crude at that time.

319
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Speaker 1: It was very crude. Well, the way she was killed

320
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Speaker 1: was extremely savage. She was stabbed thirty nine times. Let's see,

321
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Speaker 1: there was five wounds in her left long, two in

322
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Speaker 1: her right, one wound in her heart, five wounds in

323
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Speaker 1: her liver, two in her spleen, and six in her stomach.

324
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Speaker 1: They weren't able to identify which was like the first. No,

325
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Speaker 1: they couldn't tell which was first. But the weird thing

326
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Speaker 1: is that all of these wounds appeared to have come

327
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Speaker 1: from a pen knife except for one, and that was

328
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Speaker 1: the one that pierced her stern um. And they said

329
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Speaker 1: it was probably a bayonet or a large dagger. And

330
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Speaker 1: the bayonet made him think that it played into Remember

331
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Speaker 1: we said that she was supposedly with some soldiers. Soldier

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Speaker 1: would have a bayonnet. I believe that this one was

333
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Speaker 1: I think attributed to gang violence. Correct. They think it

334
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,800
Speaker 1: might have been, but it's it just was I never

335
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,560
Speaker 1: got a clear read. It sounds like, I mean, you know,

336
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Speaker 1: it sounds like to me, somebody stabbed her a bunch

337
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,560
Speaker 1: of times and she didn't go quite go down because

338
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,760
Speaker 1: she was stabbed with a little bitty knife. And then

339
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,840
Speaker 1: finally somebody else steps in and says, okay, could they

340
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Speaker 1: go our time and hit you with the big bayonet.

341
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Speaker 1: So that's interesting because then I felt it would have

342
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,960
Speaker 1: gone the other way that like some soldiers were drunk

343
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Speaker 1: accidentally like stand from the band for whatever reason. And

344
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Speaker 1: then was like, oh crap, uh, this seems like something

345
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Speaker 1: that could happen in the the you know, in white chapels, Like,

346
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Speaker 1: here's a pen knife, I'll just STAB's not going to

347
00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,840
Speaker 1: cover it up, you know sort of That's where my

348
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 1: mind goes with, that's interesting that we're opposite. So yeah,

349
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,600
Speaker 1: I know, I'm thinking that I'm thinking to set somebody

350
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,240
Speaker 1: decided that this is not working out, let's go for

351
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,240
Speaker 1: the big downs here. But how old was she? She

352
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Speaker 1: was thirty ninety nine stabs. No, that is not necessarily

353
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 1: Insignificand well, no, that's true, But they also don't This

354
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,440
Speaker 1: is one of the reasons that she's considered an outlier

355
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 1: and they don't think that she was one of the

356
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Speaker 1: ripper victims. Is the m O is not the same evolved.

357
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Speaker 1: One of the things that happened in every ripper killing

358
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,919
Speaker 1: was the throat was cut and hers was not, and

359
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,400
Speaker 1: they and they stabbed her, didn't They didn't rip her

360
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,720
Speaker 1: open the way corre she was just stabbed to do.

361
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,720
Speaker 1: She wasn't open. But we're going to get into that.

362
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 1: I get one just like it was one final Like

363
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Speaker 1: I'm right that like it wasn't an abandoned area. There

364
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 1: are a bunch of people sleeping around. If you were

365
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,200
Speaker 1: going to like stab a lady thirty nine times whatever

366
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,439
Speaker 1: with a pen knife, she's going to scream and make noise.

367
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,560
Speaker 1: Versus if you're going to run her through the bandet

368
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 1: and she dies and then try and cover it up,

369
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 1: that's going to be pretty like quiet compared pertly. I'm

370
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,760
Speaker 1: not gonna I want to say, though, that I swear

371
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,720
Speaker 1: somewhere in the reading I heard someone reported they thought

372
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 1: they heard a scream. There's so many of that though, Like,

373
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Speaker 1: like I witness statements are really bad, especially when it's

374
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Speaker 1: two in the morning. Well it's not only two in

375
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,879
Speaker 1: the morning, but it's in like a really horrible neighborhood.

376
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 1: Like there's drunks and like a bunch of crazy people

377
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 1: wandering around all the time. You think you kind of

378
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,199
Speaker 1: tune it out. I mean, you know, one of the

379
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,040
Speaker 1: victims that I'm going to talk about in a little

380
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,840
Speaker 1: bit here, people were like, well, I don't know, like

381
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,400
Speaker 1: I heard some screams in the distance kind of but

382
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 1: like that's pretty normal. I didn't think anything of it.

383
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 1: I think that's just kind of speaks of the time. Well,

384
00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 1: let's let's move on to the first of the canonical five, okay,

385
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:03,879
Speaker 1: and that would be Mary Ann Nichols. The first of

386
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,919
Speaker 1: the canonical five. Yeah, Mary and Nichols a k A.

387
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,360
Speaker 1: Polly Nichols was killed five days past her forty three birthday,

388
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,959
Speaker 1: and that was August thirty one, I believe, eighty eight. Married.

389
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 1: A little bit of background here, had been married, she'd

390
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,760
Speaker 1: had five children, but unfortunately fallen under the influence of

391
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,360
Speaker 1: demon rum and uh because of her alcoholism. Although their

392
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,200
Speaker 1: other there there's conflicting accounts as to why the marriage

393
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 1: broke up. There's always extenuating circumstances, the drink and yeah, yeah, yeah, so,

394
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 1: and there were all kinds of different theories. But anyway,

395
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 1: but it broke up about eighteen eighty one something like that,

396
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,480
Speaker 1: probably because of our alcoholism. But again this is in dispute.

397
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 1: So she spent most of her remaining years between then

398
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty eight when she died in workhouses and

399
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 1: boarding houses and workhouses you probably want to know what

400
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 1: those are? Just gonna yeah that workhouses and yeah, exactly

401
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 1: what boarding houses. Obviously there are places just go rent

402
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,439
Speaker 1: a room or rent a bed for the night or

403
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 1: by the week or whatever. And then workhouses are places

404
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 1: where if you're if you're poor and sort of derelict,

405
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 1: then you're sort of grabbed and stuffed into the workhouse

406
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 1: and kind of forced to work, but at the same

407
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 1: time you have a place to live. It's kind of

408
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 1: like a poor farm here in boarding. Yeah, you like

409
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,159
Speaker 1: work for board you know. And and one of the

410
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 1: things that's really crazy is gosh, in the boarding houses,

411
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,880
Speaker 1: I can't remember what they call it, but it wasn't

412
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: always rooms that people would rent. I mean, this is

413
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 1: just a bed. Well, they actually had what equated to

414
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 1: rows of coffins that you would lay in and that

415
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 1: was your itty bitty place to sleep. And then if

416
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: you didn't have enough money for that for I don't

417
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 1: remember what it was. A couple of pennies is the

418
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,919
Speaker 1: phrase I'm going to use. But whatever the currency was

419
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: at the time, the smallest amount it was a couple

420
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 1: They had poe in these places, and they would tie

421
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 1: a rope two ropes, wanted about shoulder level and one

422
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 1: about butt height, and for a couple of pennies you

423
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: could lean against that with a buch of other people

424
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: and sleep on your feet. That this is how crazy

425
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: the boarding houses were. Just to get a place so

426
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 1: that you were out of the weather rough times. Um,

427
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: I'm really glad I'm not living there right now. Uh so,

428
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 1: she uh She scratched a living mostly from just handouts, charity, prostitution,

429
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 1: and she was of course an alcoholic and the money

430
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: she made she mostly spent on alcohol. At the time

431
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: of her desk, she was living at a boarding house

432
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: in Spittlefields, which is a neighborhood just north of Whitechapel

433
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 1: So onto the murder at one thirty am on August

434
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 1: thirty one, she was booted out of her boarding house

435
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: because she didn't have money to pay for her bed.

436
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 1: So apparently this was a pay as you go kind

437
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 1: of basis here, you know that one Yeah, yeah, uh so,

438
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: she laughed, saying she was going to earn some money

439
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 1: on the streets to be back. The last sighting of

440
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 1: her was at two thirty am at the corner of

441
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: Osborne Street in Whitechapel Road. And I'm sure you're all

442
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: familiar with that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Actually, there's a

443
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: lot of maps out there that really show this quite well,

444
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: so people can definitely look that up. Yeah, it's good

445
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 1: to help follow along, it is. It's great, you know,

446
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: using Google Maps, I was able to look at that

447
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: and able to chart out her course, So she was

448
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: at one White Chapel Road. White Chapel Road, of course,

449
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: was a fairly busy thoroughfare and actually not not as

450
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: slummy as the rest of White Chapel. Apparently at that

451
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 1: time it was reasonably good, reasonably good repair. As soon

452
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 1: as he got off of it, things sort of went downhill,

453
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: but it was okay. Uh. So she probably was plying

454
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 1: her trade on White Chapel Road and between where she

455
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: was last seen and where she probably encountered the ripper,

456
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 1: I'm instivating fifty ft. It's the distancing she covered between

457
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 1: and the time she was murdered. We'll find out, we'll

458
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: find later was about three am or a little bit after.

459
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: So's covering sevent d fifty feet in half an Hour's

460
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: not unreasonable, now, yeah, yeah, So she was moving northeast

461
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: on the on the street apparently, and I'm believing she

462
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: met the ripper someplace further away, well, you know, quite

463
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 1: a bit further away from Osborne Road. Anyway, at three

464
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: forty am her body was found. There's a short little

465
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 1: side street north of White Chapel Road called bucks Row.

466
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 1: Now it's called Derwood Street. So if you're going to

467
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: do a Google on that it's Derwoard, not bucks Row.

468
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: But she was found in a short little side street

469
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: was only which is only a couple of blocks long,

470
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 1: called bucks Row by a cart driver and he's she

471
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 1: was laying on her back and her skirt had been

472
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 1: raised over her head. Her throat had been cut twice

473
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: from left to right. Was to me implies a right

474
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: handed ripper. Do you think that makes sense? Yeah, and

475
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: her act of it had been violently slashed. There was

476
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: one massive jagged gash, other smaller gashes I know. Yeah.

477
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: They called a surgeon who examined the body, and he

478
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 1: arrived at four am and 'st a minute. She'd been

479
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 1: dead for about half an hour. His name was Dr

480
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: Hanley Llewellen. He later suspected the wounds indicated a left

481
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: handed ripper. And I don't know why he suspected that,

482
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 1: because for me, I mean, when I'm looking at somebody

483
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: who strode to slash from left to right, I'm thinking

484
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: right hand, Hello, left to right, right to left right. Sorry,

485
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: we're just standing in here. I'm just slashing at their Yeah,

486
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: he would. When you slash somebody, you're probably most likely

487
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: going to do it from behind. You're gonna grab him.

488
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 1: You're gonna pull their chin up, and you're gonna like

489
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: draw the blade across the throat from behind right, probably

490
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: but also maybe not. Yeah, I mean if you we'll see,

491
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 1: if you're standing in front, then it would be the

492
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 1: reverse because you're I would imagine that you wouldn't overhanded

493
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: from right to left, you'd pull from left. You'd want to.

494
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: But Joe, why do you have a knife. Oh my god,

495
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: that's how I die. So you're you're you're gonna show us.

496
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: All right, So let's say let's say I'm in the ripper. Okay,

497
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: first of all, if I if I, if I'm gonna

498
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: slip your through from behind, I'm gonna I'm gonna do

499
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: it like this. You're going to pull from your left

500
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: to your right to be the victims left to right

501
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: across the right. Let's say. But let's say I do

502
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: it from the front. Now, the best way to do

503
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: it from the front is to do it like this

504
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: is to the It like runs down your the side

505
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: of your arm. Yeah, exactly, I'm not. I'm not. Essentially

506
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: I'm pointing the If I'm holding my fist out in

507
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: front of me, the blade is pointing downward, and then

508
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: I just walk up to her and I go, why

509
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: am I like this again? A left to right from

510
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: her point of view? Wound? Um, If I do it,

511
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: that's that's that is the best way to do. I

512
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: guess the next way to do it is to grab

513
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 1: her hair and do this. Although I could do this,

514
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: which is going from either directionard, but I mean anyway

515
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 1: that you know, I don't want to believe with the

516
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 1: port two point too much. I think that to me,

517
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: the left to right wound indicates a right handed ripper. Dr. Llewellen,

518
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: who examined that who was on the cuts, said that

519
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 1: he's he believed that the wounds indicated that he was

520
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: a left handed person. I guess it would just matter

521
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 1: like how deep each part. I mean, you know, right

522
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: cut usually gets deeper in the way that it goes

523
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: as it travels, so he would know kind of but

524
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: also maybe not. Yeah, but anyway, it was a sharp

525
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: it was a sharp knive. She probably died pretty quickly.

526
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: Mercifully that, the rumor that the ripper was left handed

527
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: persisted for pretty much forever, even though llewell And himself

528
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: expressed doubts about his own theory. Later on. The inquest

529
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: into the death went on for more than three weeks

530
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: after the murder because they were still bringing into evidence,

531
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: they were still interviewing people from around the neighborhood and

532
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: things like that. At the end, the major finding was

533
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: that Marianne Nichols was murdered at just after three UM,

534
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: so that would put her death about half an hour

535
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: after she was last seen. And then the next the

536
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: only major thing after that, and this has nothing to

537
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: do with anything, but I'll bring it up. Bring it

538
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: up anyway, somebody started to rumor that somebody's name, quote

539
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: leather Apron quote unquote was the killer. We're gonna talk

540
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: about leather Apron more. I know, leather Apron. Yeah. Yeah.

541
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: There was a Jewish bookmaker or a Jewish bootmaker in

542
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: the neighborhood named John Piser who has apparently had the

543
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: nickname leather Apron, and so he was arrested of course

544
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: because hey, he's Jewish, he's got a leather Apron. Although

545
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: I gotta say, I do to say his nicknames, go,

546
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: leather Apron is pretty damn creepy. Yeah, it really is. Yeah,

547
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: that's that's like you know, the locals, it's wearing your

548
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: your work clothes. Constantly think if your garbage man, If

549
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: you graberge man wears his coveralls and then just goes home,

550
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: he is wearing him, goes to the grocery store, he's

551
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: just wearing him, goes to the bar, he's just wearing him.

552
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: It would be a little weird. So I can see

553
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: how you would be like, hey, garbage man, what's up?

554
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: You know? That be how that nickname starts. But it's

555
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: the weird leather apron. It's just there's just something kind

556
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: of there's sort of serial killerish about it, you know.

557
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: I I understand why that would arouse suspicions. Anyway, this

558
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: guy was arrested and of course interrogator probably beating who

559
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: the hell knows, But he later was released and actually

560
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: received some settlements from a few papers that have published

561
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: libelous information about him. Well, let's let's move on to

562
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: our next victim, who is Annie Chapman. Annie was some

563
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: kind sometimes called dark Annie. She had a full dark

564
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: head of hair, and that's how she got her nickname.

565
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: But she was forty seven years old at the time

566
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: of her death, and same story. She'd moved to White

567
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: Chapel after her marriage had fallen apart. She had issues

568
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: with drink. Uh. She was all actually getting what would

569
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: equate to alimony from her ex husband, which was a

570
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: amount of ten shillings a week, and also had a boyfriend.

571
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: She was living with a man. Well, when her ex

572
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: found out that she was living with another man, he

573
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: cut her alimony to two shillings a week, and suddenly

574
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: her boyfriend evaporates because there's suddenly not this easy flow

575
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: of money, because you know, ten shillings totally enough to

576
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: live on. At the time, it actually wasn't it was

577
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: it was okay money. I mean it didn't it didn't

578
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: get you everywhere, but at least it was something. Well,

579
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: at that point she didn't have a consistent income, and

580
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: as we said, she she took up casual prostitution along

581
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,719
Speaker 1: when doing some other words. It's just such a great term,

582
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: casual prostitution. Yeah, yeah, there were so many prostitutes. How

583
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: did they find their customers? I mean, I mean, if

584
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: you were a john, it must have been like just

585
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: I mean incredibly juicy times. I imagine that they were.

586
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: You know, there's all kinds of men in the area

587
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: coming off of ships and coming in to do words.

588
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: I imagine that it wasn't hard. Probably also worked pretty

589
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: hard hawking their wares. Probably and I probably should have

590
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: mentioned this in my description in the neighborhood too, is

591
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: that it was not far north of the Thames River,

592
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: not far not far away from the docks. Yeah, well,

593
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: at some point anyway, this is going to be on

594
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: September eighth of uh Annie was not allowed to stay

595
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: at the lodging house that she'd been at because, as

596
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: we just talked about with several she didn't have the

597
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: money so that she couldn't stay, so she left to

598
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: go make the money. That is a that's another common

599
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: theme in these these guys. Are they all go back

600
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: to there? That guys, these women all go back they

601
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: get booted at because they don't have the cash, and

602
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: ye next thing you know, they're dead. Not all of them.

603
00:32:54,600 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: But at some point between after five fifteen to five

604
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: thirty in the morning, there's a carpenter who lived at

605
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: number twenty seven Hanbury Street, and he went into the

606
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: backyard of his premises and as he goes towards the door,

607
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: he said he heard a woman say no. And he

608
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: wasn't sure where it comes from, but he thought it

609
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: was on the other side of the fence of the yard.

610
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: Then he went back in. He came out a couple

611
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: of minutes later, he heard something hit the fence that

612
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: divided number twenty seven, where he lived and number twenty nine,

613
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: which is the next house over. What was his name,

614
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: It was Albert Koch. I hope I'm pronouncing it right.

615
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: Sorry Albert if I'm not, But yeah, he said, it

616
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: seemed as if something touched the fence suddenly. He didn't.

617
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: He didn't, however, go look and see what it was. Instead,

618
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: he went back into the house and he left for work.

619
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: And that's how he said he knew what time he

620
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: heard all of this because as he walked out, he

621
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: looked up at the big clock tower and see what

622
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 1: time it was. He said it was five thirty two

623
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: when he left. About six o'clock that morning. Another gentleman

624
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: by the name of John Davis, who lived in twenty

625
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: nine Hanbury Street, came downstairs, and when he walked out

626
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 1: into the narrow passage, which is essentially an alleyway, he

627
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: saw what ends up being any Antie Chapman and a

628
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 1: couple of workmen come around right at that time, and

629
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: he says, man come here. He is evidently what the

630
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: story goes, and they found the mutilated body of Annie Chapman.

631
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: Her dress was pulled up around her knees, which we

632
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: heard in the last murder. This is starting to become

633
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: a bit of an m o um. A deep cut

634
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: had been slashed across her throat, her intestines had been

635
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: tugged out and laid across her shoulder, which is disturbing,

636
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: and her uterus and her bladder had been removed, and

637
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: the unse was taken with like that was our found, right,

638
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: that is correct? I do not I do not remember.

639
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: She was the one where I think it was the

640
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: first kind of hey, maybe this person has some kind

641
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: of medical training, wasn't she? No, that's actually that comes

642
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: in later on. But these organs were removed and uh,

643
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: you know, as with the others, it's it is extremely grizzly.

644
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: I don't know where which direction they thought her throat

645
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 1: was cut from. I didn't catch that detail, though, I'm

646
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: sure it's out there. I just didn't catch it. But

647
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: that's how she was killed, which is not a nice

648
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: way to die, I don't think. But at least he

649
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: uh slit first before we started tearing their bodies up

650
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: a mercy. We've we've got to believe that, because otherwise

651
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 1: you would think that the screams of agony would have

652
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: been so loud people would have been caught on the

653
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: first time, first try, of course. So the next victim

654
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: Caniconical Canada. Canaical victim is Elizabeth Stride, and she uh

655
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: is a little different than the rest of the victims.

656
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: Her story. She was forty four years old and she

657
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: was from Sweden. She was killed on September eighth. She

658
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: was originally married to a ship's carpenter um after a

659
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: life of prostitution, so unlike many of the victims who

660
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: turned to prostitution, she was pretty much prostitute the whole time.

661
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: She was described by her boyfriend kind of at the time.

662
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: I guess he was kind of her boyfriend at the

663
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: time as having a calm demeanor except for when she

664
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 1: started drinking. Oh yeah, I do remember that about her.

665
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: She she's a little fiery when she got Yeah. Yeah.

666
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: So her husband died of TV and they had no children.

667
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,959
Speaker 1: Her husband, the ship's carpenter I think it would yeah, toberculosis. Sorry,

668
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 1: And I think it was um like ten years before

669
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: she came to White Chapel, however, a little like snippet

670
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 1: of the kind of person she was. She told, like

671
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: everyone in White Chapel, that her husband Um and two

672
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: of their nine children had died, died in the thinking

673
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: of the Queen Anne, and that she lost all of

674
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: the teeth on her left side and developed the stutter

675
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: because somebody had kicked her in the faith as they

676
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: swam to safety. Yes. Uh So, after her husband died,

677
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: she moved to White Chapel and turned to hooking again

678
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: and had kind of an on again offgin relationship with

679
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: the Jewish man Um, during which times she learned Yiddish.

680
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 1: And this may come into play later, it will come

681
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: into play. Uh And in fact, Elizabeth Stride was seen

682
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: just twenty minutes prior to her discovery, the discovery of

683
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: her body. Um, she'd been seen many times throughout the night,

684
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: and almost all of her night was like very well

685
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: accounted for. You know, she was selling her weares, she

686
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: was with different gentleman, she was drinking, she was brawling,

687
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: she was drinking some more. Yeah, she was seen with

688
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: three different gentlemen, and everybody kind of just assumes that

689
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: she was. They were clients of hers. She was last

690
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: seen rejecting the advances of a man just outside of

691
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: a Jewish social club, and there was a concert that

692
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: was happening in the club, but nobody said they heard

693
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: anything happen. There were a lot of people around when

694
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: she died, but nobody heard anything, maybe because there was

695
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: a concert hap probably, but also maybe not, It's hard

696
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 1: to tell. One witness named Israel Shorts reported seeing Stride

697
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: being attacked and thrown to the ground outside of Duke

698
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: Field's Yard dut Fields Yard dut Field Yard um at

699
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: about am and apparently the according to Israel Schwartz, the

700
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: attacker called out Lipsky to a second man who was

701
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: standing nearby. But it was possible that there was some

702
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: kind of uh anti Semitic taunt happening there because apparently

703
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: there was a prisoner that was really famous at the

704
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 1: time who was an anti Semitic who was named Israel

705
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: Lipsky the corner at the time. Blackwell thought that Stride

706
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: might have been pulled backwards onto the ground by her

707
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 1: neckerchief before her throat was cut. When they found her,

708
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: her neckerchief was cut in half along with her throat. Um.

709
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: Another corner later concurred that Stride was likely to have

710
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: been on the ground when she was killed by a

711
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: swift slash from left to right across her neck, and

712
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 1: then there was bruising on her chest that suggested that

713
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 1: she was pinned to the ground during her attack. So

714
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: that I don't want to go I mean, you know,

715
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: I feel like we don't have to go into a

716
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: lot of the grizzly details. A lot of these you

717
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: can kind of assume from where the trajectory has been going,

718
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: that's where we're headed. Yeah. The one thing about the

719
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 1: Ripper is that his attacks grew more horrific as time

720
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: went by. Yeah, there and every one of them that

721
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 1: they got more savage. And we're going to talk about

722
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: just a minute, pretty bad already. And this and Elizabeth

723
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: Stride is one of the two of the double night Right,

724
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,479
Speaker 1: and she she only had her throat cut. She wasn't

725
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,399
Speaker 1: fully butchered as the others were. What's led some people

726
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 1: to suggest that perhaps because it was so busy around it,

727
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: that he was interrupted in mid course. Correct, And that's

728
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: what leads us to victim number four four, which would

729
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: be Katherine Kate Adams. Again, a little background on Kate

730
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: She's forty six years old and same story Fallen on

731
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 1: hard times, has issues with drinking. On Saturday, the twenty

732
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: three of September, she was picked up at eight thirty

733
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 1: at night by the local police constable because she was

734
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: passed out in the road. They hauled her in. They

735
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: say she's sobered up enough that they let her go

736
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 1: around one o'clock in the morning. If I remember the story,

737
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: they knew she had sobered up because they knew her.

738
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: And she was sitting in her cell kind of singing,

739
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: and everybody could hear and Okay, well, I guess Kate,

740
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: you're okay, let's get you out of here. The weird

741
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: thing is that she didn't head in the direction of

742
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 1: her lodging house. She kind of went in the opposite direction.

743
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: There was police constable walking his route, which took him

744
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 1: through an area known as Miter Square, and he found

745
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 1: the body of Kate at one in the morning. His

746
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 1: route took him through Miters Square fifteen minutes earlier, though,

747
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 1: so one thirty came through and there was nothing there.

748
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: He came through and he finds the body. That suggest

749
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: that perhaps the murder between his powers of deduction. Uh, well,

750
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: here's here's what they find. And and this is this

751
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: is pretty grizzly. But Um, her neck had been slit,

752
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 1: Her thighs were naked because of course her her dress

753
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: had been pulled up. Um, her abdomen was exposed. Her

754
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 1: intestines had been pulled out and placed over the right shoulder. Um,

755
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: there was matter smeared on her cheek. A piece of

756
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: her intestines, evidently about two ft long piece had been

757
00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: cut free and was laying next to her left worm,

758
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: almost as if it had been laid there by design.

759
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: Her right ear had been caught. There's a bunch of

760
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: clotted blood on her. I mean, basically, she has been butchered.

761
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: And this one is so interesting, interesting because well, I

762
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,439
Speaker 1: mean I think that actually, Um, Richard talked a little

763
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: bit about this too, in terms of that, you know,

764
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 1: we just said there was like fifteen minutes this happened,

765
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 1: like truly, this all of everything that Steve just said

766
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: happened in fifteen minutes. Yeah, and she was still warm,

767
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 1: the body was still war which tells you it was

768
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: minutes ago. Yeah. But when you think about it, it

769
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 1: wouldn't take that much time. I mean, you split her,

770
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 1: throw up, throw on the ground. You know, basically stabber, ripper,

771
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: open reaching, rip out, some oregans, lay him on the ground.

772
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: It wouldn't take any time at all, really, well theoretically,

773
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it could have been quick and clean. It

774
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 1: could have been quick and messy, could have been any

775
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: of that. It's hard to say. I think there's some

776
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 1: some details that aren't nearly as gory that are probably

777
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: pertinent that we can share. And Richard helped kind of

778
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 1: walk us through that. And and let's let's hear what

779
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: he said about that. Yeah, what happened was Elizabeth Stride's

780
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: body was found at one o'clock in the morning, and

781
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: she was found in Duckfield Yards off Burning Street. She

782
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: was found by a man named Louis Deemschutz, who had

783
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 1: come back to the yard from he'd been hawking cheap jewelry.

784
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: But he was the steward of a work on the

785
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 1: Polish and Jewish working Men's Club Socialist Club that was

786
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: in Duckfield Yard. And as he came into the yard,

787
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: his pony shied and pulled aside, and he looked into

788
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: the dark and he saw something lying on the ground.

789
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: So his first thought was it it was just something

790
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: lying there, so he reached over to lift it with

791
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: his horse with his whip, and he couldn't, so he

792
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: jumped down and struck a match and it was a woman.

793
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: Now his next action is that no one's really ever

794
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 1: explained it. He presumed it was his wife and she

795
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: was drunk. To investigate, to check on his wife, and

796
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: he found his wife in the kitchen, and that's when

797
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: he went to the other members and he said it

798
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: there was a woman downstairs, and she's drunk or she's dead,

799
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 1: I'm not certain which. So they went down and that

800
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: they found that her throat had been cut, and it

801
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: was in fact a murder victim, but the rest of

802
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: her body hadn't been mutilated, which was the murder's opera

803
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 1: endi of the Ripper killings. So this led the police

804
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: to surmise that the ripper had been interrupted, that when

805
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,720
Speaker 1: he come into the yard, he'd actually interrupted the ripper,

806
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: and the ripper had jumped back, and it was that

807
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,439
Speaker 1: sudden movement that startled the pony, which caused it to shy.

808
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 1: And then whilst amshus in the yard, and fact, it

809
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 1: dawned on him later that day that the ripper was

810
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: probably hiding alongside him in the dark yard. So had

811
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 1: he acted differently at that point, the chances are would

812
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 1: have been taken. But he presumed it was his wife

813
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: and went into the club, which gave the ripper those

814
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: for minutes or even seconds to get out of the yard,

815
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 1: and he headed for the city of London, which is

816
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: where he met Catherine Etto's now her body was found

817
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: forty five minutes later in Miter Square, which is no

818
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: great distance away from Berna Street. You could even walk

819
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: it in in less than ten minutes, so her body

820
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: was found there. It was just as I say, two murders,

821
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: and that became known as the Night of the Double Murder.

822
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: But there is a belief or a theory that Elizabeth

823
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,359
Speaker 1: Stride wasn't a Ripper victim because she was actually seen

824
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,959
Speaker 1: being attacked by a man called Israel Schwartz fifteen minutes

825
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: before her body was discovered, So some people think that

826
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 1: she was actually a coincidence, not a victim. And bizarrely,

827
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 1: some some historians even referred to her as Lucky list

828
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: Stride because she only had a throat cut, the rest

829
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:51,399
Speaker 1: of the body wasn't mutilated. That I say, what's lucky

830
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: about that? Exactly like guys, lucky he didn't get this

831
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: is it? And I said, that's the night. Probably he

832
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: came closest to being caught, but say that, don't damn

833
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: should didn't didn't say he left the scene and that

834
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: gave the rip of the time he needed. Next up

835
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: is the last of the canal five. We'll just cut that.

836
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 1: So Mary Kelly, she was found well murdered uh November

837
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: nine eight and she uh was like only twenty five

838
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 1: years old, which is, um, if you've been following along,

839
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: quite young for this kind of spate of murders. And

840
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: there's no really good information about her life prior to

841
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: eighteen eight seven. Uh. Mostly it's just like conjecture or

842
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: like what she told people. Um. She was probably married

843
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: at sixteen to a coal miner who died like three

844
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: or four years later in a mine explosion. She was

845
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: probably from Ireland, but beyond that the facts are pretty

846
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,839
Speaker 1: few and far between. After her husband's death, she took

847
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: to prostitution. Apparently she was really really attractive, but it's

848
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: a little bit of a mystery as to like what

849
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: she actually looked like. Um. She had a couple of

850
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 1: different nicknames. One was Dark Mary, but they think that

851
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 1: probably that had to do more with um, the type

852
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 1: of personality she was when she was drunk, then with

853
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 1: her appearance. She probably had blonde or red light red hair. Um,

854
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: she was fair. They called her fair every once in

855
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:36,399
Speaker 1: a while. She had a lot of nicknames. I don't

856
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: even want to go there. She was described as um

857
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: very quiet, a very quiet woman when sober, but noisy

858
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 1: when drunk or when in drink excuse me, by the

859
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 1: man that she was living with at the time of

860
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,240
Speaker 1: her death. But also I'll note that's why I believe

861
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: that she's Irish, because I am Irish too. I am

862
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: I well to be fair, I'm noisy all the time.

863
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: I'm not it once sober. We're gonna dive into this

864
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 1: and this one, as Joe was mentioning, they just keep

865
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 1: getting worse and worse. This one's rough. Um. By most accounts,

866
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 1: after a long night of multiple sightings with multiple men,

867
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 1: Mary was probably seen with a man whose description uh

868
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: is inadmissible to me because it was clearly false, but

869
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: fine entering her room in a boarding house. I say

870
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: it was false because it was a man by the

871
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: name of George Hutchinson, who we're going to talk about

872
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 1: in a little bit who was friends with Mary. Um

873
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: he met her at two am. She said, Hey, I'm broke,

874
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: Can you give me some money? And he said no,

875
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: I'm broke too, and then they like parted ways, but

876
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 1: he creepy watched her leave and uh met with somebody

877
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 1: who George said it was a man, another man, and

878
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 1: she said he said that she seemed to know him,

879
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,280
Speaker 1: but the man was dressed really well for the area,

880
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 1: so he, being a good samaritan m George followed her

881
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: and this man back to Mary's house uh and watched

882
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: the house for like an hour and provide the police

883
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:14,879
Speaker 1: with an i possibly detailed description, including like eyelash color

884
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 1: which he could totally see of this. Yeah, from like

885
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 1: twenty yards away. Absolutely, so there's been a whole lot

886
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:27,240
Speaker 1: of kind of stuff there. But the story is probably

887
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: at least partially true because another woman who lived in

888
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: the boarding house said that she saw when she came

889
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 1: home at like two thirty am, there was a man

890
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: standing across the street watching the house. So that's yeah,

891
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: that was Hutchinson. That's creepy either way, it doesn't really matter.

892
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: There are a few reports of Mary being around at

893
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: like eight am or ten am the next morning, but

894
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: pretty much those are false. The corner said that her

895
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: her time of death was between two and eight am,

896
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: which is a wide range, but the mutilation that she

897
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 1: sustained after death was definitely a couple hours worth of work.

898
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 1: I don't want to go into too much detail about this.

899
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,919
Speaker 1: We've been doing lots of Grewsome stories this whole time,

900
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 1: and we've already talked about some grewsome stuff this but

901
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: like this takes the cake. I mean, no one in

902
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: the house heard any commotion to signify when she might

903
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,280
Speaker 1: have been killed. But she was killed with a slash

904
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: to her throat. Probably it was quick and quiet. The

905
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 1: rest is really awful. Her clothes were neatly folded on

906
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 1: a chair next to her bed, which means that maybe

907
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: it was a john that she brought home. She was

908
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: likely um asleep. They think she was asleep when her

909
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: throat was cut, um, signifying that the person was in

910
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 1: there with her. However, um her room in the boarding

911
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: house didn't. She lost the key, so she broke a

912
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: window and just like would read gin and unlock it,

913
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 1: so it could have been somebody who gained access later.

914
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 1: Her mutilation is horrifying. Body parts removed, all kinds of cuts, gouges,

915
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 1: runs the gamut. You really want to know about that,

916
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: there will be Yeah, just google her. There are pictures

917
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 1: to Another nice little tidbit fact is that there was

918
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: apparently like a really large fire in her You know,

919
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,839
Speaker 1: they've had stoves in their rooms and there had been

920
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: some clothing burned to provide light. Foresaid mutilation. So that's,

921
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 1: you know, my might might think. My take on that

922
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: is that the the murder probably had his clothing soaked

923
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,399
Speaker 1: with blood, did a quick change of clothes, and then

924
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 1: just through the clothes in, which is even more disturbing

925
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 1: because that means he brought a change of clothes in

926
00:52:54,960 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: banding to get that wild. Yeah, but she was she

927
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 1: was living on and off with a man, So there

928
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: it's possible that there were other most or as as

929
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: I think somebody has mentioned, there's also the theory that

930
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: perhaps Jack ripperd dressed as a woman when coming and

931
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:19,719
Speaker 1: going from these things too. That was Yeah, that was

932
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: Jack London or who was it knows Arthur Conan Doyle

933
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 1: had come up with that. Yeah, and I believe that

934
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 1: maybe he just borrowed some of Mary's clothes. I mean

935
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: it would explain why, like nobody saw anything unusual leaving

936
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 1: the women's boarding house that she lived in. But yeah,

937
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 1: not a nasty little murder. And then we we've got

938
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: one more outlier that we're just going to cover up. Briefly,

939
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 1: this is related sort of maybe I don't really know.

940
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:53,320
Speaker 1: This is Francis coles um ak a Francis Coleman. Francis

941
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 1: Hawkins also noticed charity. Now, uh yeah, I don't know

942
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 1: where that came from. But she she was someone like

943
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 1: Marianne Nichols and all the others. Her life was unapproved

944
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 1: by alcohol. She was a prostitute in the Whitechappell area

945
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 1: for reportedly about eight years preceding her death. And on

946
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 1: the day preceding her death, she had been bar hopping

947
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 1: with the emergencyman named James Sadler who was arrested and

948
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,760
Speaker 1: and they they actually tried to uh send her prison

949
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 1: for her murder, but it didn't work out that way

950
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: because he had a pretty good alibi. Looking into that

951
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,439
Speaker 1: a little bit, this is real quick, because I don't

952
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: think this is even related to the ripper she liked

953
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: many of the others. Went went back to her lodging

954
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: house where she had been staying. She was booted out

955
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 1: because she didn't have cash to pay for her bed

956
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 1: for that night, and so she wound up back on

957
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 1: the streets looking to earn a little money so she

958
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 1: could sleep for the night, and she bumped into a

959
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 1: fellow prostitute named Ellen Klena or Colina Colinna. I don't

960
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,760
Speaker 1: know how her neighbor was pronounced, we'll say Klena. Anyway,

961
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 1: A man approached them. He propositioned Klena and uh, he

962
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 1: apparently made her spider sense tank and she said he

963
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 1: wouldn't have sex with her, and so he punched her

964
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,359
Speaker 1: in the face. Why didn't I know? What a great guy?

965
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: And then propositioned Frances Coles, and Coles left with him. Well,

966
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: well that's not good judgment, do you think I mean? Well,

967
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: at two fifteen a a m Her body was discovered

968
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 1: by a constable named Ernest Thompson. There was a railway

969
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 1: art and she her body was in there, and she

970
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 1: was still alive. Her body had been her throat had

971
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 1: been slit from ear to ear. She was bleeding profusely,

972
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 1: but he noticed that her one eye opened and closed,

973
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 1: so she was still alive. At that time. He blew

974
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 1: his whistle for more help and all that stuff, and

975
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: they won't got a doctor. But of course she died

976
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: because she bled out yeah yeah, but uh, it doesn't

977
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 1: look like she was really she's part of the White

978
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 1: Chappel murders, but the murder was not really the same. Yeah,

979
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,879
Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's just that one piece was left.

980
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: She wasn't mutilated, although then again it's possible because the

981
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 1: constable reported that when he was approaching the crime, seeing

982
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 1: you're retreating footsteps that sounds like a man's footsteps running away,

983
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:18,320
Speaker 1: and so it's possible that interrupted again he interrupted the

984
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: interrupted the crime, and that maybe it was a ripper.

985
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 1: But here's why I don't think it was. Okay, Uh yeah,

986
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: James Sadler was released because witnesses that seeing him and

987
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 1: he was a merchant seaman. He was seen between two

988
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: and three am, and it was too drunk to commit

989
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 1: the murder because he had been bar hopping with her

990
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 1: the night before. Uh, the reason I don't think so

991
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:45,399
Speaker 1: it is no mutilation, although again there's extenuating certain necessary. Also,

992
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 1: she was killed with a blunt knife and the Medical

993
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: Examber reported that the ripper used a sharp knife. This

994
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:56,399
Speaker 1: was a blunt knife. So okay, there you go. Well

995
00:56:56,600 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 1: that that is seven victims total that we've taught about.

996
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, things that I hadn't thought

997
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 1: about was the lives of these women at the time,

998
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:11,959
Speaker 1: the things they go through. And I know it's sad,

999
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: it's very sad, and and they're they're kind of in

1000
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 1: this story, as Richard said, he said, they're they're kind

1001
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 1: of the forgotten piece of the story of who they were,

1002
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 1: and he brings up some really good points, and so

1003
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 1: I want to share that with everybody. I think the

1004
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 1: the other important thing is that I mean, I think

1005
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 1: the victims. I think the victims often become from one

1006
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 1: of a better way of putting the forgotten victims in

1007
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: the case, because we just got the names of these women.

1008
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: But what they virtually all of them full of a

1009
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 1: similar pattern. And it was a really tragic pattern in

1010
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 1: that I wouldn't say they came from wealthy families, but

1011
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 1: they certainly came from you know, they weren't policy stricken women,

1012
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 1: but they all become alcoholics, and it was a sort

1013
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: of a downward spiral that they then their marriages have

1014
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 1: broke down, they've been sometimes ostracized from their families, and

1015
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 1: then they ended up in the East End of London,

1016
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 1: living transient existence in the common lodging houses. So they

1017
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 1: weren't prostitutes by choice, they were prostitutes by necessity. And

1018
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 1: I think that's the thing. That we've got tragic victims

1019
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 1: who often get overlooked, and I think that's the case.

1020
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: And also the fact that he was the world's first

1021
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 1: real media murderer. I mean, it's often said he's the

1022
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: world's first serial killer, which is not true, but he's

1023
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 1: certainly the first one where the press start to realize this,

1024
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 1: this is capturing people's imaginations, and so the press start

1025
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 1: going to town on it. And what's interesting is that

1026
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: over that ten week or so period, when when the

1027
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 1: murders are really grabbing the attention and terrifying people and

1028
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 1: shocking people, the newspapers are coming out several times a

1029
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: day reporting on what's going on, the latest finds, and

1030
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 1: they're bringing all this salacious detail to their readers, and

1031
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: suddenly you've got they must go over the top. And

1032
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: when Mary Kelly gets murdered, it seems she's the last victim.

1033
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 1: It seems that the press realized they've gone too far,

1034
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 1: and it's almost as there were lights which has been

1035
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 1: switched off and it stops it that the salacious detail

1036
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 1: eases off and then interest is lost. But for that

1037
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 1: ten or so a week period, we've got this opportunity.

1038
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 1: I can't think of any other period in history where

1039
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 1: you can look at a specific part of a major

1040
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: city in anywhere really, but in a major city in

1041
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 1: England in this case, you can look at a tiny

1042
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 1: part of that area and because of the newspaper reportage,

1043
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 1: get an insight if you like, it's a window into

1044
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: the past, and just look at the daily lives of

1045
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 1: the people living through the horror of the jack that

1046
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: of the murders. We've we've covered the victims. Now something

1047
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 1: else that we need to talk about is the actual

1048
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 1: activity to the police. Yeah, they wus right exactly now,

1049
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 1: they did just go for douch instant. By the way,

1050
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century, I don't think they I don't

1051
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:08,280
Speaker 1: think the donut existed. I think it might have accidentally

1052
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: been made. But I believe that is a dunkin Donuts creation. Okay,

1053
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 1: I know it's not a dunkin Donuts creation. Please nobody

1054
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 1: said a scathing emails I was making that up. It's

1055
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 1: a joke. But let's let's talk about the police and

1056
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 1: something that people need to understand about the time in

1057
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: the area. There was not one police force. There was

1058
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 1: actually two police forces in operation that we're trying to

1059
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 1: catch Jack the ripper. There is the Metropolitan Police and

1060
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: then there's the City of London Police. The murders of

1061
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:49,919
Speaker 1: Mary Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and Mary Kelly all

1062
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 1: took place in White Chapel and Spittle Fields, which was

1063
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 1: not really actually in London city limits, correct, that was

1064
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 1: outside of it. So that was the jurisdiction of the

1065
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 1: Metro Police of Metropolitan Police, and they were investigating those

1066
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 1: four murders. Katherine Attos, however, when she was killed in

1067
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 1: Miter Square, that's inside of the City of London, so

1068
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 1: her her death came under the City of London Police.

1069
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 1: And here's here's how the how this works is when

1070
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 1: London was first created, and we're going back to Roman

1071
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: times because London was a Roman outpost and at that

1072
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 1: time they call it the Golden Mile because Rome had

1073
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 1: built this and London was a one basically a one

1074
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 1: mile square and they had built walls around it, and

1075
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 1: the Thames ran through the middle and these walls. I've

1076
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 1: seen remnants of these walls, and we're not just talking

1077
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 1: about a brick wall. We're talking about six to eight

1078
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 1: feet thick and upwards of funny feet high. All commerce

1079
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 1: happened inside of the wall, so that's why they called

1080
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 1: it the Golden Mile, and everything else everybody lived in.

1081
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 1: All the work happened outside of that area. So if

1082
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 1: you ever happen to get a chance to go there

1083
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 1: and see these walls, they're fantastic. The pieces that are

1084
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 1: still there are amazing history because there are thousands of

1085
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 1: years old in the middle of a freaking giant city.

1086
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 1: And I thought I didn't see those in London, but

1087
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 1: I saw it when I was in Chester, England. There's

1088
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 1: that was also another Roman walled city, and there's remnants

1089
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 1: of the wall is still there and it's it's it

1090
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 1: really is incredible to think that this is like back

1091
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 1: to the times before Christ. It's amazing. Yeah, well, these

1092
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:55,120
Speaker 1: you know, these these policemen, they are doing a lot

1093
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 1: of work. You got police constables that Bobby's basically that

1094
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,400
Speaker 1: are on their route and they walk their route to

1095
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 1: keep an eye out. Jack the Ripper murders hit, they

1096
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: are suddenly inundated with work. And this is back in

1097
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:12,960
Speaker 1: the day again, like we said, no cars. Everybody's on

1098
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 1: foot or maybe not a horse, and you gotta track

1099
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 1: everything down. So it is tons and tons of work,

1100
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 1: and there's a little evidently there was a little bit

1101
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 1: of bad blood between the two police forces. It wasn't

1102
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 1: like they really worked together. And there's a lot of

1103
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 1: things where guys, you know, as I know one of

1104
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 1: us had said at some point or maybe it comes

1105
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 1: up later, they named their suspects, but they're all naming

1106
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:40,919
Speaker 1: different suspects, so people weren't really working together. So though

1107
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 1: I know they were trying to do good, it wasn't

1108
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 1: the most organized search and investigation that I've seen. That is,

1109
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 1: and that is like really typical. I mean, they've heard

1110
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 1: many stories and things like serial killer investigations here in

1111
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 1: America where the local police department gets really really territorial

1112
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 1: with the FEDS, like the FBI comes in and stuff

1113
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 1: like that. There's a lot of bad blood. It's so

1114
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 1: it's it's part of the course. Well do you know

1115
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 1: who else was trying to do good? The White Chapel

1116
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:11,640
Speaker 1: vigilance committee. Oh yeah, that's right. Those guys, do you

1117
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 1: talk about them? Yeah? Yeah. They were trying real hard

1118
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 1: to do good. They were comprised of like fourteen area businessmen, tradesmen,

1119
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 1: one actor, and they were formed out of quote a

1120
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:27,920
Speaker 1: concern not for the women who were being killed and mutilated,

1121
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 1: but the impact the killings were having on the commerce

1122
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 1: in the areas. On September tenth eight, which may have

1123
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 1: been a bit late. Uh, they elected their chairman, who

1124
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 1: was local businessman George Lusk, who becomes fairly important in

1125
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 1: a minute. I'll talk about this in just like a second. Here.

1126
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:51,600
Speaker 1: They were interviewed by lots of local papers. Uh. They

1127
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 1: encouraged the police to issue a reward for information, and

1128
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 1: when the police were like nah, they were like, all right,

1129
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:01,200
Speaker 1: we'll do it. So they he put a bunch of

1130
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 1: posters up trying to inform people, saying, you know, any

1131
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:07,080
Speaker 1: information that leads to the arrest of this person, we

1132
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 1: will give you a regard. Yes, it was not a

1133
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 1: whole lot. And actually after the death of Elizabeth Stride,

1134
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:17,480
Speaker 1: the committee decided that they were unhappy with the level

1135
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 1: of protection that the police were offering, so they created

1136
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 1: their own citizen patrol Force and employed to private detectives.

1137
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 1: But George Lusk in October of was the recipient of

1138
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 1: one of the famous Ripper letters. In fact, it gets

1139
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 1: a little worse than that. It was a nice little bit.

1140
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 1: It's a nice little bit of of ripper lore. It's

1141
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: the from Hell letter. Yeah, this is very popular. Yeah,

1142
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 1: so uh. He returned home to find a small package

1143
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: in the mail. Upon opening it, he found half of

1144
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 1: a human kidney and a note that read from Hell,

1145
01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:57,080
Speaker 1: Mr Lusk, s O R. I send you half the

1146
01:05:57,200 --> 01:06:01,600
Speaker 1: kidney I took from one woman per praised it for you.

1147
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:04,520
Speaker 1: The other piece I fried and ate. It was very nice.

1148
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:07,640
Speaker 1: I may send you the bloody knife that took out

1149
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 1: took it out if only you wait a while longer,

1150
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 1: signed catch me when you can miss your lux Lusk.

1151
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:16,960
Speaker 1: You should, if you want, you should go out and

1152
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 1: read it. It's there's so many misspellings in here. I

1153
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 1: can't even it's awesome. Well I've seen a copy of

1154
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 1: the original two and it's it's almost illegible to Yeah,

1155
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 1: Mr Lusk, he was pretty sure it was a hoax actually,

1156
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:32,600
Speaker 1: and so he was like, yeah, just throw it away.

1157
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 1: But he told a couple of his fellow committee members,

1158
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:39,160
Speaker 1: and they said, well, actually, maybe we should take that

1159
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:40,920
Speaker 1: to the police, and he said, all right, fine, So

1160
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 1: they took it the police and it kind of just

1161
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:45,680
Speaker 1: fades into lore from that point. There's a lot about

1162
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 1: the letters, and I don't think that we're actually going

1163
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:50,480
Speaker 1: to talk too much about the letters. Um, I think

1164
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:53,160
Speaker 1: that our interview with Richard shed some really good light

1165
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 1: on the letters. Yeah, the letters, I think typically in

1166
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:59,760
Speaker 1: situations like this, usually all kinds of cranks write letters,

1167
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:02,680
Speaker 1: and so it's really hard were you know, journalists or whatever.

1168
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:06,520
Speaker 1: But this one particularly sticks out because it did have

1169
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:10,880
Speaker 1: that half a human kidney, which follows quickly after another letter,

1170
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:13,920
Speaker 1: you know, and I don't I didn't take notes on this.

1171
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:15,800
Speaker 1: I just kind of vaguely read about it. So I'm

1172
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 1: doing this from memory at this point. But there was

1173
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 1: another letter that wasn't released that was right before Lusk

1174
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:25,040
Speaker 1: got it. Uh, this package with a letter that said

1175
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 1: that they were the ripper or whoever sent the letter

1176
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:31,360
Speaker 1: claimed they were going to send half a kidney to somebody,

1177
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:33,560
Speaker 1: and then a couple of days later, half a kidney

1178
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:35,760
Speaker 1: showed up. So there's some there's a little bit of

1179
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 1: evidence to suggest that perhaps there was some of them

1180
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 1: were legitimate, but there were, you know, as Richard talked about,

1181
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 1: and actually we should probably just let him talk about it.

1182
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 1: There's there's so many letters that it's hard to kind

1183
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:51,360
Speaker 1: of suss out what's real and what's not. Yeah, and

1184
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:53,440
Speaker 1: plus but you know, also if you're planning us a

1185
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:56,600
Speaker 1: crank letter with half a kidney in it to some person,

1186
01:07:57,880 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 1: then it's not that hard to like plan at all

1187
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 1: and send out a letter saying you're going to send

1188
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 1: Hafrican is somebody's several days prior to that. I mean

1189
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:08,640
Speaker 1: it really, you know, that still doesn't prove anything to me.

1190
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 1: Now that the letters, well, first of all, I mean

1191
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:16,280
Speaker 1: one of the things we have to differentiate between is

1192
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:19,080
Speaker 1: the White chapp Or murderer and Jack the Ripper. I

1193
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:20,840
Speaker 1: often said Jack the Ripper was the man who never

1194
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 1: existed because he didn't. He was the creation of a

1195
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:26,960
Speaker 1: letter writer. And that was the famous dear Boss Lenser.

1196
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:28,680
Speaker 1: I keep on hearing the police have court me, but

1197
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:30,880
Speaker 1: they won't fix me just yet. And it goes on

1198
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,679
Speaker 1: to gloat over the murders, and then it signed Jack

1199
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:36,920
Speaker 1: the Ripper. Now the letter arrived where it entered the

1200
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 1: investigation when the police were getting a lot of press criticism.

1201
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 1: So the police made the letter public in the hope

1202
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:45,680
Speaker 1: that it would give them a breakthrough, and very soon

1203
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:48,439
Speaker 1: they realized they've made a massive mistake because once the

1204
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:51,840
Speaker 1: letter went public, it gave the murderer a name, that

1205
01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:55,280
Speaker 1: name Jack the Ripper, and so the media throughout the

1206
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:58,560
Speaker 1: world latched onto that name and it almost turned it

1207
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:01,240
Speaker 1: into a sort of a pantomime on the streets of

1208
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:04,360
Speaker 1: the East End of London. And the other effect was

1209
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 1: that when that letter went public and it was signed

1210
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:11,080
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper, hoaxes throughout the land began reaching for

1211
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:14,400
Speaker 1: their pens and the police become became swamped with this

1212
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:19,040
Speaker 1: a tidal wave of Ripper correspondence. So there were lots,

1213
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:21,280
Speaker 1: and we're not just talking one letter. We're talking lots

1214
01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:23,720
Speaker 1: of letters that were coming in because every one of

1215
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:27,839
Speaker 1: them had to be investigated and assessed and if ever positive,

1216
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:30,120
Speaker 1: if it was possible, to followed up, and it brought

1217
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:32,720
Speaker 1: the police investigation almost to a standstill. It had the

1218
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:34,800
Speaker 1: opposite effect that what the police had wanted, It gave

1219
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:39,799
Speaker 1: them more more false information they needed. But the letter itself,

1220
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:42,080
Speaker 1: the police at the time and a lot of experts

1221
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 1: today are convinced it was the work of the journalist

1222
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 1: who actually did it, probably just to keep paper papers selling,

1223
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:52,879
Speaker 1: but it certainly did turn five sword least then murders

1224
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 1: into an international phenomenon and gave birth the legend of

1225
01:09:56,240 --> 01:10:00,320
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper. So another kind of issue that uh,

1226
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:04,720
Speaker 1: we wanted to bring up is kind of it has

1227
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 1: the potential to be an inflammatory issue, and that's fine,

1228
01:10:07,160 --> 01:10:09,839
Speaker 1: is that there was a lot of anti Semitism happening

1229
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:13,560
Speaker 1: in London at this time. There's I mean, you know,

1230
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:15,800
Speaker 1: and Richard talks about this little bit and we'll we'll

1231
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:19,400
Speaker 1: let him talk about it in a minute. But you know,

1232
01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:23,719
Speaker 1: after the double event on thet um police of course,

1233
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:26,639
Speaker 1: just like you, just were scouring the area for clues

1234
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:30,040
Speaker 1: and at about three am a constable found a bit

1235
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:34,600
Speaker 1: of bloody cloth like a shawl the apron. It was

1236
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:37,959
Speaker 1: a piece of the apron excuse me that was apparently

1237
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:41,160
Speaker 1: later to be confirmed as part of Katherine at ows

1238
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:45,679
Speaker 1: ETOs apron excuse me, And above it written in chalk

1239
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:48,600
Speaker 1: was either the Jews are the men that will not

1240
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:52,400
Speaker 1: be blamed for nothing, or the Jews are not the

1241
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:55,639
Speaker 1: men to be blamed for nothing. Um Jews is spelled

1242
01:10:56,040 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 1: j u w e s. There are are a couple

1243
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:04,400
Speaker 1: different police officers who responded to this. They all wrote

1244
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 1: down different things that this said. And I guess here

1245
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:10,800
Speaker 1: is where we need to back up a little bit

1246
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:17,720
Speaker 1: to the Mary Ann Nicholas murder. Nichols murder and the

1247
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 1: rumors about her killer being Um, the Jewish man named

1248
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:26,320
Speaker 1: uh leather Apron. This was not a particularly good time

1249
01:11:26,360 --> 01:11:29,720
Speaker 1: for Jews in London, no matter what. There were a

1250
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:31,640
Speaker 1: lot of them, A lot of them were in this

1251
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:37,639
Speaker 1: kind of White Chapel slum area, and as Richard kind

1252
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:42,559
Speaker 1: of talked about, their influx kind of coincided with these murders.

1253
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:46,200
Speaker 1: And I think that everybody could pretty much agree that

1254
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:49,719
Speaker 1: like this is totally circumstantial. It doesn't actually say anything

1255
01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:53,960
Speaker 1: about Jewish people on the whole. But of course, if

1256
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:55,880
Speaker 1: there's a new group of people in an area and

1257
01:11:55,960 --> 01:11:58,639
Speaker 1: then things that people have never seen before start happening,

1258
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 1: they're going to blame the new people for the new thing.

1259
01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 1: And there were a lot of Jews from Eastern Europe

1260
01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:05,360
Speaker 1: who who would come into the area absolutely and a

1261
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,120
Speaker 1: ton of Irish that had also recently come into the

1262
01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:10,160
Speaker 1: area too, sure, but I think you know, one of

1263
01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:13,240
Speaker 1: the things that's really handy about the like Eastern European

1264
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:15,680
Speaker 1: Jews that come into the country is that they all

1265
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 1: speak Yiddish or their native language, not English, so it's

1266
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:21,960
Speaker 1: very it's so it's kind of the human nature of

1267
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:24,559
Speaker 1: it to just say like, well, those people are different. Well,

1268
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:30,960
Speaker 1: it alienates them from you and you from them. So well,

1269
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 1: there's also the blood libel thing too, you know, the

1270
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:36,519
Speaker 1: I mean, there were there are lots of really really

1271
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:40,240
Speaker 1: nasty stereotypes about Jews and it's circulated in Eastern Europe

1272
01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:42,240
Speaker 1: for years, the blood libel being you know what that

1273
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:47,800
Speaker 1: is that the Jews had would would kidnap and exanguinate

1274
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:50,880
Speaker 1: Christian children and use their blood to make mots of

1275
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:54,639
Speaker 1: like matza cakes. So yeah, yeah, well there's but there's

1276
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:57,160
Speaker 1: the other aspect of this as well, where we kind

1277
01:12:57,200 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 1: of get into the the potential of police may have

1278
01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:06,000
Speaker 1: apprehended the ripper and there was one credible witness, but

1279
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:08,360
Speaker 1: they were both Jewish, and it is part of Jewish

1280
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:11,679
Speaker 1: law that you can't testify against each other. So there's

1281
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:15,200
Speaker 1: there's that aspect of it as well. There is that

1282
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:19,240
Speaker 1: actually part of Jewish law. Yeah, yeah, it's in the Bible.

1283
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:24,080
Speaker 1: There's also some kind of weird things with the translation

1284
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:26,800
Speaker 1: of this statement because there's a double negative and there's

1285
01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 1: a huge misspelling. So there are some people that think

1286
01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:37,200
Speaker 1: that with the double negative, the phrase means was was

1287
01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:40,120
Speaker 1: meant to mean that the Jews would not take responsibility

1288
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:43,599
Speaker 1: for anything. There are also people who suggest that Jews

1289
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:47,040
Speaker 1: spelled that way is actually like a slang word for two,

1290
01:13:47,479 --> 01:13:49,880
Speaker 1: which I don't know what that would make that whole

1291
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:55,920
Speaker 1: thing mean. There's also some kind of like massionic Freemason

1292
01:13:57,040 --> 01:14:00,680
Speaker 1: interpretation there no matter what, and you know all that

1293
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:02,599
Speaker 1: Richard kind of tell us because he tells it better.

1294
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:06,040
Speaker 1: It was destroyed before there could be a good record.

1295
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:08,760
Speaker 1: You know, photographs existed at the time, but there's no

1296
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:13,080
Speaker 1: photographs of this graffiti. And you know, Richard says, why

1297
01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:16,040
Speaker 1: So when that message was found, Sir Charles Warren, who

1298
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:19,559
Speaker 1: was the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, he was horrified because at

1299
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:21,600
Speaker 1: six o'clock that morning, you were going to have the

1300
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:25,600
Speaker 1: Petticoat Lane Market around that doorway, and it was going

1301
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:28,719
Speaker 1: to bring hundreds of gentile buyers or even thousands into

1302
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:31,759
Speaker 1: an area and to a market that was staffed largely

1303
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:34,680
Speaker 1: by Jewish storeholders, and how the building where he was

1304
01:14:34,720 --> 01:14:38,080
Speaker 1: found that was Jewish flats as well. So what he

1305
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:40,280
Speaker 1: thought was, if that's on the wall in the morning,

1306
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:43,439
Speaker 1: we're going to have riots that were innocent Jews will

1307
01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 1: be will be attacked by the mob. So he destroyed

1308
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:49,519
Speaker 1: the message, he had it raised before anybody could see

1309
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:53,000
Speaker 1: it the next morning, and that's fed into the conspiracy

1310
01:14:53,240 --> 01:14:56,240
Speaker 1: that Sir Charles Warren, being the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, that

1311
01:14:56,360 --> 01:14:58,519
Speaker 1: he's done it to cover the fact that the Jewey's

1312
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:03,040
Speaker 1: might have been reference to a Masonic ritual. But it

1313
01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 1: probably was. I mean, the different officers who saw it's

1314
01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:08,840
Speaker 1: some said it looked faded as they've been there for

1315
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:12,200
Speaker 1: some time. My personal belief is it was coincidence. It

1316
01:15:12,320 --> 01:15:15,639
Speaker 1: was already in the doorway. Ripple just happened to drop

1317
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:19,720
Speaker 1: the apron in that doorway. What's not often pointed out

1318
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:23,000
Speaker 1: is that there was lots of racist graffiti against the

1319
01:15:23,080 --> 01:15:25,559
Speaker 1: Jews going up in the streets at the time because

1320
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:28,160
Speaker 1: they were scapegoats. So it's probably just a piece of

1321
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:31,000
Speaker 1: that graffiti. But it feeds nice the way the fact

1322
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 1: the misspelling the ju W e s it's that misspelling

1323
01:15:34,479 --> 01:15:36,400
Speaker 1: that's seen it turn up as part of the Masonic

1324
01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:39,599
Speaker 1: ritual and stuff like that, So you don't he probably

1325
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:42,920
Speaker 1: don't think the Reppert was Jewish, then, right, I I

1326
01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:46,679
Speaker 1: think he might well have been. I certainly because Metzki

1327
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:50,560
Speaker 1: was certainly po po polished jew so him and his

1328
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:53,120
Speaker 1: family had come over. And I think, actually it says

1329
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 1: one thing we don't know about the police from quite

1330
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:59,599
Speaker 1: early on, when when they realized that if they kept

1331
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:02,680
Speaker 1: pushing that that this this theory they were looking for

1332
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:06,200
Speaker 1: sort of a Jewish immigrant, this could lead to anti

1333
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:09,240
Speaker 1: Jewish rioting and programs, and innocent people would be killed.

1334
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 1: So I think if the police did catch him and

1335
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:15,800
Speaker 1: he was Jewish and they couldn't try him so you

1336
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:17,479
Speaker 1: had to go to an asylum, I think the police

1337
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:20,000
Speaker 1: probably would have covered it up because they would have

1338
01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:22,280
Speaker 1: had full scale rioting in the East End and innocent

1339
01:16:22,360 --> 01:16:24,439
Speaker 1: people would have died. So I think from that point

1340
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:26,719
Speaker 1: of view, the police show themselves to be quite enlightened.

1341
01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:29,080
Speaker 1: So I think there's a good possibility that he was

1342
01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:32,280
Speaker 1: as I say, And if it was Aaron kause Minsky,

1343
01:16:32,360 --> 01:16:35,240
Speaker 1: which of all the suspects, I mean he's up there.

1344
01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:39,160
Speaker 1: Because the two highest ranking officers seemed to believe, definitely

1345
01:16:39,200 --> 01:16:41,880
Speaker 1: believed he was the killer, then I think we have

1346
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:45,599
Speaker 1: to believe it, but say it's interesting and had they

1347
01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:47,080
Speaker 1: revealed it and then said, well, we're not going to

1348
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:50,000
Speaker 1: prosecute because he's going to an asylnum and we haven't

1349
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:51,880
Speaker 1: got the evidence that we need that they would have

1350
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:54,040
Speaker 1: had rioting, and I think that's what the police were

1351
01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:56,560
Speaker 1: terrified of. Now we get to the part of the

1352
01:16:56,640 --> 01:17:02,000
Speaker 1: story where we look at the suspects of who could

1353
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:05,880
Speaker 1: have done this, some of the some of the and

1354
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:11,360
Speaker 1: there's there there's a huge smattering of potential and I

1355
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:15,879
Speaker 1: emphasize the word potential suspect. I want to like suffice

1356
01:17:15,920 --> 01:17:19,080
Speaker 1: to say that there is an entire Wikipedia article dedicated

1357
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:22,839
Speaker 1: only to the suspects in this case, and it is huge.

1358
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:28,840
Speaker 1: It includes George Clooney, by the way. Well, here's the

1359
01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 1: thing is that we we brought up a couple of

1360
01:17:32,439 --> 01:17:37,560
Speaker 1: questions to Richard that he had some really good input on.

1361
01:17:38,320 --> 01:17:41,360
Speaker 1: And the things that that we wanted to kind of

1362
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:46,280
Speaker 1: find out was one, why did the ripper do it?

1363
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 1: You know, what was his motivation? Um? And then the

1364
01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:57,360
Speaker 1: next was of course, why are there so many suspects?

1365
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:01,000
Speaker 1: And like I said, he had some really good things

1366
01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:03,800
Speaker 1: to say. To be honest, I don't think there was

1367
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:06,040
Speaker 1: a motive. I think it was just purely for the

1368
01:18:06,080 --> 01:18:08,439
Speaker 1: pleasure of the kills. There's all sorts of theories, the

1369
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:11,600
Speaker 1: theories that he he had been he had caught a

1370
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:15,280
Speaker 1: disease off a prostitute, and he was his revenge. There's

1371
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:17,280
Speaker 1: a theory that he wanted to rid the East End

1372
01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:20,880
Speaker 1: of prostitution. There's a wonderful theory that George Bernard Shaw

1373
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:24,000
Speaker 1: first put forward that he was a social reformer and

1374
01:18:24,120 --> 01:18:26,479
Speaker 1: he did the murders to expose the horrible conditions in

1375
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:30,720
Speaker 1: the area. So, which is an intriguing one progressive this

1376
01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:32,160
Speaker 1: is it. He was just saying, you know, and no

1377
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:34,160
Speaker 1: one's listening, so that I'll do something that will make

1378
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:36,400
Speaker 1: people sit up and take notice. And they certainly did

1379
01:18:36,479 --> 01:18:39,519
Speaker 1: sit up and take notice. But really I just think

1380
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:42,320
Speaker 1: he was just probably some nobody living in the area.

1381
01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:45,679
Speaker 1: He had he had voices in his head and every sort,

1382
01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:47,519
Speaker 1: and those voices got too much and he went out

1383
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:49,519
Speaker 1: and murder. And for the rest of the time he

1384
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:52,800
Speaker 1: was probably somebody who people living next door people who

1385
01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:55,519
Speaker 1: saw him thought, you know, he's eccentric, but he's harmless,

1386
01:18:56,120 --> 01:18:58,400
Speaker 1: and and that was it. And that's often what these

1387
01:18:58,439 --> 01:19:01,080
Speaker 1: serialal has turned out to be. It's often when when

1388
01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:03,160
Speaker 1: they brought to justice, or if they're brought to justice,

1389
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:05,720
Speaker 1: it's often the last person you've ever expected it to be.

1390
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:09,439
Speaker 1: So you were saying, you kind of think the voices

1391
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:10,960
Speaker 1: in his head. That kind of leads me to think

1392
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:14,760
Speaker 1: maybe something like schizophrenia. Yes, as I say, it could

1393
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:17,800
Speaker 1: go in any form of illness, schizophrenis seems highly likely.

1394
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:22,840
Speaker 1: The interesting about kause Minski is that we from what

1395
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:24,679
Speaker 1: we know of him when he is in the asylum,

1396
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:26,559
Speaker 1: he's not in the In fact, he's put down as

1397
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:29,800
Speaker 1: non violent, so he just doesn't seem the sort of

1398
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:33,160
Speaker 1: the sild who would did. However, after stress that the

1399
01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:36,719
Speaker 1: kause Mensky we know is the Kazminski from eight one onwards.

1400
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:40,599
Speaker 1: We don't know what he was like in eight Uh,

1401
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:43,400
Speaker 1: you know, he could have his condition could have deteriorated

1402
01:19:43,439 --> 01:19:46,240
Speaker 1: by eighteen ninety one a great deal. But the only

1403
01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:49,160
Speaker 1: violence he's ever put it was shown to have done,

1404
01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:51,559
Speaker 1: is to throw a chair at an attendant the asylum.

1405
01:19:52,280 --> 01:19:56,000
Speaker 1: So he doesn't seem home assylum, and there's other suspects

1406
01:19:56,040 --> 01:20:01,120
Speaker 1: who most certainly were homicidal. So it's it's interesting. We'll

1407
01:20:01,200 --> 01:20:03,240
Speaker 1: say it's just one of those things that we'll just

1408
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:06,920
Speaker 1: never know. I'm just curious why why has the list

1409
01:20:07,040 --> 01:20:13,639
Speaker 1: of potential suspects grown so exponentially. The main the main

1410
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:16,599
Speaker 1: reason is because he wasn't caught, So anybody can come

1411
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:18,200
Speaker 1: up with a person. I mean, what what a lot

1412
01:20:18,240 --> 01:20:21,240
Speaker 1: of writers do is they get their suspect and then

1413
01:20:21,280 --> 01:20:25,240
Speaker 1: they make the facts that their suspect. There's very few

1414
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:26,880
Speaker 1: writers actually do it the other way around, which is

1415
01:20:26,960 --> 01:20:30,679
Speaker 1: what should be done. Get the facts and then sorry,

1416
01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:33,320
Speaker 1: get the facts and then look at who the facts

1417
01:20:33,439 --> 01:20:36,840
Speaker 1: lead to. The point is if you go to a

1418
01:20:36,880 --> 01:20:38,519
Speaker 1: publisher and so I want to write a book on

1419
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:41,720
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper, They're only really consider you if if

1420
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:44,960
Speaker 1: you've got a suspect, and the more dramatic the suspect is,

1421
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:47,400
Speaker 1: then the more chance you've got that book being published

1422
01:20:47,920 --> 01:20:51,320
Speaker 1: and you know, and then the book becoming a best seller. So,

1423
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:55,800
Speaker 1: like I said, that's that's that's a lot of good information.

1424
01:20:56,479 --> 01:21:00,160
Speaker 1: And I really like the points that that Richards brought up.

1425
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:04,320
Speaker 1: Now we're gonna look at a couple of the suspects,

1426
01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:09,559
Speaker 1: again are too many to really go into. We're gonna

1427
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:11,640
Speaker 1: go into a couple of them, and we're not going

1428
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:13,680
Speaker 1: to talk about the royal family or anything like that.

1429
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:17,800
Speaker 1: Well maybe I actually I I'm gonna go into that

1430
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:19,880
Speaker 1: one a little bit because I find that one fun.

1431
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:23,760
Speaker 1: It is fun. It's a fun lark and the things

1432
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:27,720
Speaker 1: that that that get brought up are pretty humorous. But

1433
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:32,120
Speaker 1: let's let's not go there yet. So let's start off

1434
01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:35,200
Speaker 1: with the first one that we've got on our list,

1435
01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:44,160
Speaker 1: which Montague John Drew. Yeah. Uh, Montague, who, by the way,

1436
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:46,720
Speaker 1: I don't believe was the killer, but let me but

1437
01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:50,559
Speaker 1: he's still believed by some people to be the killer. Uh.

1438
01:21:50,720 --> 01:21:54,720
Speaker 1: He was from an upper class background. He studied at

1439
01:21:54,760 --> 01:21:58,519
Speaker 1: Oxford worked as an assistant schoolmaster, and while he was

1440
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:01,120
Speaker 1: doing that, he studied law and he became a barrister

1441
01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:04,680
Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty five U and for reasons unknown and

1442
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:08,439
Speaker 1: November eighteen eighty eight he lost his job at the

1443
01:22:08,479 --> 01:22:12,000
Speaker 1: school where he was a school of monster for reasons unknown. Again,

1444
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:15,800
Speaker 1: as I said in on December thirty one, eight eight,

1445
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:19,760
Speaker 1: his body was found in the Tamas River. Unfortunately, he

1446
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 1: had stones in his pockets, which apparently it kept his

1447
01:22:22,320 --> 01:22:25,880
Speaker 1: body submerged for about a month. So he apparently went

1448
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:29,200
Speaker 1: into the river early in December, and he was thirty

1449
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 1: one at the time of his death. And that wasn't

1450
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:34,240
Speaker 1: just just as another bit of history, that was not

1451
01:22:34,640 --> 01:22:37,680
Speaker 1: uncommon at that time for people to go into the

1452
01:22:37,760 --> 01:22:40,600
Speaker 1: Thames and not be found for a while. And the

1453
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:45,040
Speaker 1: Thames is a very nice, relatively clean river today, was

1454
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:49,160
Speaker 1: not at the time. Again, as Joe talked about tanneries, breweries,

1455
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:52,240
Speaker 1: all these things, all of their in open sewers, all

1456
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:54,600
Speaker 1: dumping into the Thames. So it's a nasty river. So

1457
01:22:54,760 --> 01:22:57,920
Speaker 1: nobody wants to go looking for someone they think might

1458
01:22:57,960 --> 01:23:00,040
Speaker 1: have gone into the river because you don't know it,

1459
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:02,920
Speaker 1: you'll come back out. Yeah, and I'm sure it reeks.

1460
01:23:02,960 --> 01:23:04,720
Speaker 1: People probably didn't even want to get close to the

1461
01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:09,800
Speaker 1: river back not safe drinking water. Yeah. Yeah. The contents

1462
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:13,599
Speaker 1: of his pockets, he had a train ticket data December one.

1463
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:17,000
Speaker 1: He had sixteen pounds that's that's British pounds, not sixty

1464
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:20,200
Speaker 1: pounds of gold, but he had sixteen He had gold

1465
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:23,439
Speaker 1: worth sixteen pounds British or sterling. I guess would be

1466
01:23:23,479 --> 01:23:25,400
Speaker 1: a bit way to put it. And he also had

1467
01:23:25,439 --> 01:23:27,800
Speaker 1: a check for fifty pounds. Uh. And by the way,

1468
01:23:27,920 --> 01:23:30,599
Speaker 1: this was a lot of money in those days. Yeah,

1469
01:23:30,880 --> 01:23:33,479
Speaker 1: And so he was carrying a lot of cash that

1470
01:23:33,760 --> 01:23:37,320
Speaker 1: was that was still in his pockets. Yeah, in the pockets. Yeah.

1471
01:23:37,400 --> 01:23:40,320
Speaker 1: So he was a robbery and murder was obviously not

1472
01:23:40,439 --> 01:23:43,799
Speaker 1: amotive here. Um. He his state was valued at about

1473
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:47,679
Speaker 1: a quarter of a million dollars pounds in today's numbers.

1474
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:52,360
Speaker 1: So uh, financial privation was probably not a motive for

1475
01:23:52,479 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 1: the suicide. If he wasn't indeed a suicide. It was

1476
01:23:56,200 --> 01:23:59,960
Speaker 1: ruled suicide after the inquest. Apparently his family had depressed

1477
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:04,800
Speaker 1: a mental issues. His grandmother committed suicide, his attempted suicide,

1478
01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:09,640
Speaker 1: his sister later long after his death, killed herself, and

1479
01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:13,719
Speaker 1: also there was a note that he left which read quote,

1480
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:16,200
Speaker 1: since Friday, I felt that I was going to be

1481
01:24:16,320 --> 01:24:18,200
Speaker 1: like mother and the best thing for me to do

1482
01:24:18,520 --> 01:24:23,920
Speaker 1: was die. So I'm thinking that perhaps he actually did

1483
01:24:24,280 --> 01:24:29,000
Speaker 1: commit suicide, but his death coincided with the end of

1484
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:32,200
Speaker 1: the Ripper murders, which is why sometime after the fact

1485
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:34,840
Speaker 1: that it didn't have it right away, but eventually years

1486
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:38,280
Speaker 1: later people started putting two and two together and saying, hey, golly,

1487
01:24:38,439 --> 01:24:40,920
Speaker 1: he killed himself right at the same time the murders ended.

1488
01:24:42,040 --> 01:24:45,240
Speaker 1: I don't believe that there's no cred I just don't

1489
01:24:45,240 --> 01:24:48,120
Speaker 1: believe there's any credible evidence that he was actually the Ripper.

1490
01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:52,560
Speaker 1: What do you guys think, any any opinions there? The

1491
01:24:52,720 --> 01:24:57,800
Speaker 1: timing is the convenience. But yeah, and if we're going

1492
01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:00,799
Speaker 1: by like people who died around the same time exactly,

1493
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:03,240
Speaker 1: there's a lot of them. There's a lot of people

1494
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:05,960
Speaker 1: I know exactly. And so I think it's a kind

1495
01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:09,000
Speaker 1: of a slander on this guy's memory that he's been

1496
01:25:10,080 --> 01:25:13,760
Speaker 1: suggested as possibly being the Ripper, because there's absolutely no

1497
01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:16,679
Speaker 1: evidence for it. But and yet still he is considered

1498
01:25:16,720 --> 01:25:20,080
Speaker 1: to be a prime candidate as the Ripper, unbelievably. So

1499
01:25:20,720 --> 01:25:23,599
Speaker 1: the next candidate that we've got is a gentleman by

1500
01:25:23,640 --> 01:25:30,240
Speaker 1: the name of Michael ostrog And he wasn't a suspect again,

1501
01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:34,720
Speaker 1: kind of like Montague, he wasn't a suspect that came

1502
01:25:34,760 --> 01:25:38,639
Speaker 1: out right away. Instead, he came up several years later

1503
01:25:39,400 --> 01:25:44,280
Speaker 1: from a letter that was written that's been referred to

1504
01:25:44,720 --> 01:25:49,240
Speaker 1: or or called now the MacNaughton memoranda. The memoranda says

1505
01:25:49,840 --> 01:25:53,760
Speaker 1: Michael ostrog a mad Russian doctor and a convict, and

1506
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:57,920
Speaker 1: unquestionably a homicidal maniac. This man was said to have

1507
01:25:58,080 --> 01:26:01,519
Speaker 1: habitually been cruel to women and and for a long

1508
01:26:01,640 --> 01:26:04,480
Speaker 1: time was known to have carried about with him surgical

1509
01:26:04,600 --> 01:26:09,000
Speaker 1: knives and other instruments. His antecedents were the very worst,

1510
01:26:09,120 --> 01:26:11,639
Speaker 1: and his whereabouts at the time of the White Chapel

1511
01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:18,439
Speaker 1: murders could never be satisfactorily accounted for what he might

1512
01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:22,840
Speaker 1: have been unstable, but nobody could ever pin the name

1513
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:26,439
Speaker 1: on him. And again, as it was, he came up

1514
01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:30,840
Speaker 1: later on. But he was a petty criminal. So this

1515
01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:33,200
Speaker 1: is my again, this is my issue with him being

1516
01:26:33,360 --> 01:26:36,360
Speaker 1: called the suspect. He was a petty criminal. He was

1517
01:26:36,520 --> 01:26:40,200
Speaker 1: never known to be a violent criminal. He was in

1518
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:44,800
Speaker 1: and out of jail for petty theft, but never murder.

1519
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:49,960
Speaker 1: And he was arrested for theft in July of eighteen

1520
01:26:50,040 --> 01:26:53,320
Speaker 1: eighty seven and sentenced to six months of hard labor,

1521
01:26:53,600 --> 01:26:57,960
Speaker 1: So that's from September eight eight seven forward, released on

1522
01:26:58,200 --> 01:27:01,040
Speaker 1: March tenth of eighteen eighty eight, So this is before

1523
01:27:01,160 --> 01:27:06,200
Speaker 1: the murders happened, and he was quote unquote cured of

1524
01:27:06,760 --> 01:27:11,920
Speaker 1: his petty theft habit. Well, the problem is is that

1525
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:17,320
Speaker 1: he not too long after that, was arrested and sentenced

1526
01:27:17,360 --> 01:27:22,360
Speaker 1: to two years in prison for theft in Paris on

1527
01:27:22,479 --> 01:27:28,360
Speaker 1: the eighteenth of November, which is before the killing stop.

1528
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:32,040
Speaker 1: So that's why I have a problem with with Ostrog

1529
01:27:32,160 --> 01:27:38,439
Speaker 1: being keyed in as one of the major suspects. Yeah,

1530
01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:41,479
Speaker 1: that would make sense. Okay, so much for your week, candidate.

1531
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:45,679
Speaker 1: Let me give you another week candidate here. George Chapman.

1532
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:51,280
Speaker 1: George Chapman was also known as the Burrow poisoner. He

1533
01:27:51,439 --> 01:27:54,880
Speaker 1: was He was a Polish London with an unpronuncible name.

1534
01:27:55,479 --> 01:27:58,000
Speaker 1: His his last name was I'm not going to pronounce

1535
01:27:58,280 --> 01:28:03,280
Speaker 1: his entire full name, but the surname was Klausowski or Klosowski.

1536
01:28:03,439 --> 01:28:07,200
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, there's lots of kind Klosowski. I think

1537
01:28:07,280 --> 01:28:10,720
Speaker 1: that there's the best way to pronounce it. But he

1538
01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:14,600
Speaker 1: was arrested supposedly, and I've got conflicting information about this,

1539
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:18,120
Speaker 1: and he was supposed he was arrested in question regarding

1540
01:28:18,160 --> 01:28:22,679
Speaker 1: the Ripper murders. He had training and surgery and warsaw

1541
01:28:23,040 --> 01:28:26,360
Speaker 1: and worked there as a doctor's assistant until about December

1542
01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:29,240
Speaker 1: eighteen eighty six and to the best of our knowledge,

1543
01:28:29,280 --> 01:28:32,680
Speaker 1: he arrived in London in eighty eight. He married while

1544
01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:35,439
Speaker 1: he was in London. Apparently liked to play the field.

1545
01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:38,640
Speaker 1: He had several mistresses, three of whom he murdered by

1546
01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:41,880
Speaker 1: poison later on. This is well after the whole track

1547
01:28:41,960 --> 01:28:44,840
Speaker 1: the Ripper thing was done. The murders took place in

1548
01:28:45,720 --> 01:28:48,840
Speaker 1: nineteen o one and nineteen o two. An investigation into

1549
01:28:48,880 --> 01:28:51,760
Speaker 1: the last murder Fount revealed that the death was due

1550
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:55,640
Speaker 1: to poison. So the bodies of the previous mistresses were

1551
01:28:55,720 --> 01:28:59,960
Speaker 1: exhumed and tested, and well, it turns off he poised

1552
01:29:00,000 --> 01:29:02,720
Speaker 1: in them too, and so he was tried for the

1553
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:05,040
Speaker 1: murder of the last one, whose name was Maud Marsh

1554
01:29:05,960 --> 01:29:09,519
Speaker 1: and I was convicted and was hanged in April nineteen

1555
01:29:09,600 --> 01:29:12,679
Speaker 1: o three. So why is he suspected to be the Ripper? Well,

1556
01:29:13,439 --> 01:29:17,479
Speaker 1: here are the reasons. A Scotland or detective name Frederick

1557
01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:22,040
Speaker 1: Aberleine said that he was his chief suspect, and the

1558
01:29:22,120 --> 01:29:27,840
Speaker 1: reasons were that he had questioned his wife and the

1559
01:29:27,920 --> 01:29:30,479
Speaker 1: wife told police that he would often go out for

1560
01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:34,040
Speaker 1: night or at night for hours on end. Another reason

1561
01:29:34,160 --> 01:29:36,160
Speaker 1: is that he arrived in Whitechapel at about the same

1562
01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:39,280
Speaker 1: time the murders began and left to go to America

1563
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:42,919
Speaker 1: about the same time that the murders ended. His description

1564
01:29:43,080 --> 01:29:45,200
Speaker 1: matched out of the mass and the man last seen

1565
01:29:45,240 --> 01:29:48,880
Speaker 1: with Mary Keller Kelly, which we've talked about. Yeah, the

1566
01:29:49,120 --> 01:29:54,479
Speaker 1: description is uh, you know, to my mind, kind of bogus. Yeah. Uh,

1567
01:29:54,680 --> 01:29:56,920
Speaker 1: he was violent and this is kind of documented. He

1568
01:29:57,000 --> 01:30:02,080
Speaker 1: was misogynistic. Okay, So again, Frederick Aberlein, the Scotland er detective,

1569
01:30:02,200 --> 01:30:04,439
Speaker 1: said that for those reasons, he believed that he was

1570
01:30:04,760 --> 01:30:09,479
Speaker 1: the best ripper suspect. But I think it's pretty thin.

1571
01:30:09,640 --> 01:30:12,559
Speaker 1: I mean, as far as him going out at night

1572
01:30:12,680 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 1: for hours on end, well, the guy was a philanderer,

1573
01:30:16,160 --> 01:30:17,840
Speaker 1: of course. Of course he left to go out for

1574
01:30:17,840 --> 01:30:20,600
Speaker 1: a night, you know, and and have sex with his mistresses.

1575
01:30:20,720 --> 01:30:24,240
Speaker 1: Of course he did so. And that doesn't really mean

1576
01:30:24,280 --> 01:30:26,519
Speaker 1: anything to me as far as the other stuff goes.

1577
01:30:26,600 --> 01:30:30,160
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just none of it really is much

1578
01:30:30,200 --> 01:30:32,799
Speaker 1: in the way of Evans. Well, sorry, he's a weak candidate.

1579
01:30:32,960 --> 01:30:35,439
Speaker 1: Are you guys ready for a strong candidate? Yeah, he's

1580
01:30:35,479 --> 01:30:41,960
Speaker 1: already Yeah, are ready? Aaron Kosminsky, I've heard of this guy. Yeah,

1581
01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:45,160
Speaker 1: you may recognize him. He's the one who like a

1582
01:30:45,320 --> 01:30:50,479
Speaker 1: couple of months ago, DNA evidence quote proved was the ripper.

1583
01:30:51,680 --> 01:30:57,000
Speaker 1: He was a Russian Polish barber. He emigrated to England

1584
01:30:57,120 --> 01:31:00,479
Speaker 1: in the eighteen eighties, and he did indeed live in

1585
01:31:00,600 --> 01:31:05,000
Speaker 1: White Chapel in eighty eight and he was Jewish. I'm

1586
01:31:05,000 --> 01:31:08,360
Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and like give it up front, modern detectives,

1587
01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:10,799
Speaker 1: this is my like big problem with him. Modern detectives

1588
01:31:10,840 --> 01:31:14,360
Speaker 1: aren't sure that this is like that Cosminsky is the

1589
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:19,080
Speaker 1: Cosminski that police suspected back in the eighteen late eighteen nineties.

1590
01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:22,519
Speaker 1: But I'll talk about that in a little minute. Kase

1591
01:31:22,560 --> 01:31:24,960
Speaker 1: Minsky was in and out of a sane asylums and

1592
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:28,200
Speaker 1: institutions most of his life. One could assume that, like

1593
01:31:28,520 --> 01:31:32,360
Speaker 1: in this day and age currently and you know, the teens,

1594
01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:35,000
Speaker 1: if somebody was in and out of mental institutions, they

1595
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:39,960
Speaker 1: wouldn't then be allowed to like be barbers moments like

1596
01:31:40,040 --> 01:31:42,960
Speaker 1: around people's next But these were different days, um, and

1597
01:31:43,160 --> 01:31:46,320
Speaker 1: you know, his insanity took the form of auditory hallucinations,

1598
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:49,679
Speaker 1: paranoid fear of being fed by other people that actually

1599
01:31:49,760 --> 01:31:51,240
Speaker 1: was so bad that it drove him to pick up

1600
01:31:51,280 --> 01:31:53,840
Speaker 1: and eat food that people dropped as litter and he

1601
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:57,519
Speaker 1: refused to wash uh, and the cause of his insanity

1602
01:31:57,640 --> 01:32:02,400
Speaker 1: was cited as um self abe. Yeah, that which we

1603
01:32:02,479 --> 01:32:04,320
Speaker 1: now know, let's be honest, is not like so much

1604
01:32:04,360 --> 01:32:07,800
Speaker 1: cause of insanity as like sanity. Yeah exactly. But yeah,

1605
01:32:07,880 --> 01:32:09,720
Speaker 1: the that was that was I mean, when I was

1606
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:13,200
Speaker 1: a kid, I mean, self abuse was supposedly got to

1607
01:32:13,240 --> 01:32:17,760
Speaker 1: create issues for you. Yeah. So in February of eight year,

1608
01:32:18,240 --> 01:32:23,920
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen, self abuse, masturbation. Yeah, okay, I'm just making

1609
01:32:23,960 --> 01:32:27,680
Speaker 1: sure I understood. Not that I'm trying to make dis gratuitous,

1610
01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:30,799
Speaker 1: but I just wanted to make I understood your story

1611
01:32:31,520 --> 01:32:36,080
Speaker 1: looks on your face like self abuse wink. Okay, in

1612
01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:39,360
Speaker 1: a story where we've talked about a man cutting uteruses

1613
01:32:39,439 --> 01:32:43,479
Speaker 1: out of women, masturbation, that's a bridge too far. That's

1614
01:32:43,960 --> 01:32:46,240
Speaker 1: a bridge too I can see it. Though. It's kind

1615
01:32:46,280 --> 01:32:48,479
Speaker 1: of like it's kind of like the gateway drug to

1616
01:32:48,760 --> 01:32:51,200
Speaker 1: like mass murder and stuff like that. So I guess.

1617
01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:55,440
Speaker 1: In February of nineteen nineteen, kause Minsky, he was institutionalized

1618
01:32:55,479 --> 01:32:57,000
Speaker 1: at this point, had been for a number of years.

1619
01:32:57,840 --> 01:33:01,120
Speaker 1: His illness had driven him down to a startling ninety

1620
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:03,840
Speaker 1: six pounds, and he died in March of that year

1621
01:33:04,160 --> 01:33:10,440
Speaker 1: in in a mental institution. Right, So, the Cosminsky connection

1622
01:33:10,680 --> 01:33:13,559
Speaker 1: to the Ripper murders wasn't really established until a couple

1623
01:33:13,600 --> 01:33:19,360
Speaker 1: of years later when people were going through old records.

1624
01:33:19,760 --> 01:33:26,280
Speaker 1: Um A constable apparently in nineteen eighteen ninety four wrote

1625
01:33:26,280 --> 01:33:29,160
Speaker 1: a lotter to his daughter saying that Cosminski had been

1626
01:33:29,200 --> 01:33:33,640
Speaker 1: a suspect that no first name had been given. The

1627
01:33:33,720 --> 01:33:36,840
Speaker 1: letter stated that Cosminski was a suspect because he had

1628
01:33:37,080 --> 01:33:40,680
Speaker 1: quote a great hatred of women with strong homicidal tendencies.

1629
01:33:41,080 --> 01:33:46,479
Speaker 1: And I'll be honest, nothing in any records of of

1630
01:33:46,640 --> 01:33:50,400
Speaker 1: Aaron Cosminski, the man that we're talking about right now,

1631
01:33:51,080 --> 01:33:54,040
Speaker 1: suggests that he was violent in any way. The only

1632
01:33:54,520 --> 01:33:56,800
Speaker 1: little spate of violence he had was he threw a

1633
01:33:56,920 --> 01:33:59,760
Speaker 1: chair at a nurse once. And he was in and

1634
01:33:59,800 --> 01:34:03,080
Speaker 1: out of institutions a lot. Most records say that he

1635
01:34:03,280 --> 01:34:08,320
Speaker 1: was kind of um, yeah, he was like he was

1636
01:34:08,360 --> 01:34:11,120
Speaker 1: actually scared of people a little bit. He didn't he

1637
01:34:11,280 --> 01:34:12,840
Speaker 1: was actually scared, you know, as I said, he was

1638
01:34:12,960 --> 01:34:16,960
Speaker 1: scared of like people, He didn't want to be fed, like,

1639
01:34:17,200 --> 01:34:20,200
Speaker 1: he was scared of interacting on like an emotional level

1640
01:34:20,280 --> 01:34:23,760
Speaker 1: with other human beings. He didn't ever attack anybody. He

1641
01:34:23,760 --> 01:34:25,320
Speaker 1: would just kind of like would sit in his cell

1642
01:34:25,400 --> 01:34:28,800
Speaker 1: and be quiet a lot. A few years later, Commissioner

1643
01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:31,799
Speaker 1: wrote a book in which he said that the ripper

1644
01:34:32,160 --> 01:34:37,040
Speaker 1: was a low class Polish Jew. And um, before we

1645
01:34:37,160 --> 01:34:40,960
Speaker 1: even get into the DNA evidence part, uh doctor's notes.

1646
01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:44,920
Speaker 1: As I said, I'll describe Kasminski as harmless. Also, he

1647
01:34:45,080 --> 01:34:47,960
Speaker 1: spoke mostly Ish when he was locked up, which indicates

1648
01:34:48,120 --> 01:34:50,920
Speaker 1: that his English was likely not very good. Um, which

1649
01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:52,800
Speaker 1: means that it would have probably been pretty hard for

1650
01:34:52,920 --> 01:34:57,760
Speaker 1: him to lure women into alleys, to be a john

1651
01:34:57,800 --> 01:35:01,120
Speaker 1: of any kind. But you the other the other big

1652
01:35:01,240 --> 01:35:03,320
Speaker 1: thing for me is that Aaron Cosminski wasn't put away

1653
01:35:03,400 --> 01:35:08,120
Speaker 1: until eight um, and the murder stopped in That's kind

1654
01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:10,360
Speaker 1: of key, yeah, he the murders should have gone on

1655
01:35:10,479 --> 01:35:13,040
Speaker 1: for longer. Yeah. And then we come to the DNA

1656
01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:16,280
Speaker 1: evidence part of this, and I guess we'll let Richard

1657
01:35:16,439 --> 01:35:19,439
Speaker 1: explain a little bit about what the DNA evidence is about,

1658
01:35:19,479 --> 01:35:22,439
Speaker 1: and then I'll I'll talk about it a little bit after.

1659
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:28,160
Speaker 1: You know, he kind of describes how the evidence quote

1660
01:35:28,200 --> 01:35:32,000
Speaker 1: evidence came about to begin with. He can do it

1661
01:35:32,040 --> 01:35:34,880
Speaker 1: way better than I can, you know. And for the

1662
01:35:34,960 --> 01:35:37,840
Speaker 1: DNA evidence. I loved when we when we asked Richard

1663
01:35:37,920 --> 01:35:42,600
Speaker 1: that question, his initial response was my favorite party. I

1664
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:45,360
Speaker 1: was hoping you wouldn't ask that one. We have to

1665
01:35:46,560 --> 01:35:50,479
Speaker 1: the DNA. It's the evidence is interesting. Basically, it's a

1666
01:35:50,560 --> 01:35:53,200
Speaker 1: shoal that purports to be the show that Katherine knows

1667
01:35:53,280 --> 01:35:55,960
Speaker 1: was wearing, and it was reportedly found next to her body,

1668
01:35:56,320 --> 01:36:00,160
Speaker 1: picked up my police officer and taken home, and it's

1669
01:36:00,200 --> 01:36:03,519
Speaker 1: passed down through generations of the family and finally it

1670
01:36:03,600 --> 01:36:05,760
Speaker 1: was auctioned in I believe it was two thousand and

1671
01:36:05,840 --> 01:36:08,240
Speaker 1: seven when it was bought by Russell Edwards, who's the

1672
01:36:08,280 --> 01:36:10,599
Speaker 1: man behind the new book on it, and he then

1673
01:36:10,680 --> 01:36:14,479
Speaker 1: had it subjected to DNA testing and he then matched

1674
01:36:14,520 --> 01:36:18,320
Speaker 1: the DNA to a descendant of Katherine Eddo's. It was

1675
01:36:18,680 --> 01:36:22,000
Speaker 1: a descendant of Aaron Kazminski. The only problem is he

1676
01:36:22,160 --> 01:36:24,719
Speaker 1: hasn't told us. He's refusing to say who the descendant

1677
01:36:24,760 --> 01:36:28,599
Speaker 1: of Aaron Kasmnski is, so historically we can't really check

1678
01:36:28,720 --> 01:36:32,400
Speaker 1: the veracity of that. It purports that on the shore

1679
01:36:32,520 --> 01:36:35,320
Speaker 1: they found our Aaron cos or they found the DNA

1680
01:36:35,439 --> 01:36:38,519
Speaker 1: evidence to suggest that Aaron Kasminski had been near the

1681
01:36:38,600 --> 01:36:41,479
Speaker 1: shore but even if his DNA is on the shore,

1682
01:36:41,560 --> 01:36:44,160
Speaker 1: that it doesn't prove that he murdered Katherinettos, just that

1683
01:36:44,240 --> 01:36:47,000
Speaker 1: he was somewhere, you know, that he met Katherinettos and

1684
01:36:47,560 --> 01:36:50,040
Speaker 1: what since what what are occupation asked that he that

1685
01:36:50,080 --> 01:36:53,679
Speaker 1: he'd been with Katharinetto's So, in my opinion, the shold

1686
01:36:53,720 --> 01:36:57,360
Speaker 1: the shore doesn't actually prove anything, but it's it's interesting.

1687
01:36:57,439 --> 01:36:59,519
Speaker 1: I mean, it keeps the case going, it keeps the

1688
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:02,880
Speaker 1: interest in the case, and it adds an experiment to it.

1689
01:37:03,040 --> 01:37:05,960
Speaker 1: So let's just say it's interesting that it say that

1690
01:37:06,040 --> 01:37:08,920
Speaker 1: the two mating officers do seem to have thought that

1691
01:37:09,400 --> 01:37:13,120
Speaker 1: Kasminski and so I would say, yeah, it's it's interesting,

1692
01:37:13,200 --> 01:37:15,920
Speaker 1: but it's not conclusive, and it's it's far from conclusive.

1693
01:37:16,240 --> 01:37:19,600
Speaker 1: And I think we'll never know for sure because so

1694
01:37:19,800 --> 01:37:22,880
Speaker 1: much of the evidence has gone you know, I'm with him,

1695
01:37:23,040 --> 01:37:26,080
Speaker 1: you know, I'll say upfront, I don't buy this whole

1696
01:37:26,160 --> 01:37:28,879
Speaker 1: DNA evidence thing. Um, there are a lot of problems

1697
01:37:28,920 --> 01:37:30,920
Speaker 1: with it. You know, they got the DNA off the

1698
01:37:31,000 --> 01:37:33,920
Speaker 1: shawl that supposedly maybe belonged to one of the victims.

1699
01:37:34,000 --> 01:37:36,639
Speaker 1: We've kind of discussed this. Not only is that week,

1700
01:37:36,760 --> 01:37:39,120
Speaker 1: but there's like no chain of evidence for the shaw

1701
01:37:40,040 --> 01:37:44,000
Speaker 1: the study or the evidence hasn't been pure reviewed. Also,

1702
01:37:44,760 --> 01:37:48,000
Speaker 1: as a fun fact, the news broke in, uh the

1703
01:37:48,120 --> 01:37:50,360
Speaker 1: Daily Mail, which you may or may not recognize as

1704
01:37:50,400 --> 01:37:54,519
Speaker 1: a British tabloid. That's like where the results were first published.

1705
01:37:54,840 --> 01:37:58,479
Speaker 1: That's a little sketchy and world. Well actually, you know,

1706
01:37:58,560 --> 01:38:04,000
Speaker 1: in fact, one of our own Oregonian reporters, Susannah Bowdman,

1707
01:38:04,240 --> 01:38:07,080
Speaker 1: puts it, the Daily Mails reporting on science and scientific

1708
01:38:07,160 --> 01:38:11,880
Speaker 1: evidence is let's say, not known to be robust. Is

1709
01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:14,800
Speaker 1: like yes, actually, and the thing to remember too is

1710
01:38:14,840 --> 01:38:18,479
Speaker 1: that you know, nobody knows who this shawl or whatever

1711
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:21,519
Speaker 1: it was belonged to, if it was We're Killers, or

1712
01:38:21,600 --> 01:38:25,400
Speaker 1: if it was the victims, if it was the victims,

1713
01:38:25,520 --> 01:38:29,240
Speaker 1: and if it had some quote unquote DNA evidence. Uh,

1714
01:38:30,200 --> 01:38:32,800
Speaker 1: well she was prostitutes, so it could have had d

1715
01:38:33,720 --> 01:38:36,040
Speaker 1: evidence from all kinds of guys on Yeah, and I

1716
01:38:36,080 --> 01:38:39,439
Speaker 1: guess so as a final nail, mcoffin Richard brings this

1717
01:38:39,560 --> 01:38:42,360
Speaker 1: point up, and we don't even know, in all honesty,

1718
01:38:42,439 --> 01:38:44,599
Speaker 1: we don't even know that was her short. It's it's

1719
01:38:44,720 --> 01:38:47,920
Speaker 1: it's one of those interesting things, and it's it's passed

1720
01:38:47,920 --> 01:38:49,360
Speaker 1: through a lot of different people. I mean a lot

1721
01:38:49,400 --> 01:38:53,519
Speaker 1: of people have had it. I suspect, although I can't

1722
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:55,160
Speaker 1: you know, well, I don't know for certain, but it's

1723
01:38:55,200 --> 01:38:59,760
Speaker 1: been it's been handled. And there's also rumors that her

1724
01:39:00,040 --> 01:39:02,880
Speaker 1: sentence handled to the conference. Whether whether that's true or not,

1725
01:39:03,040 --> 01:39:07,240
Speaker 1: that's in dispute. But certainly the photographs of Russell holding

1726
01:39:07,280 --> 01:39:09,840
Speaker 1: the shawl up, it's not banked, it's not you know,

1727
01:39:09,920 --> 01:39:14,520
Speaker 1: it's just there. There's no cross contaminations. Also a possibility

1728
01:39:14,560 --> 01:39:16,680
Speaker 1: to look at as well. And it here's my one

1729
01:39:16,800 --> 01:39:21,519
Speaker 1: last final huge problem with Aaron Cosminski is Aaron David Cohen.

1730
01:39:22,000 --> 01:39:24,000
Speaker 1: You guys, did did he come up in your research

1731
01:39:24,040 --> 01:39:28,479
Speaker 1: at all? No, that name doesn't. So it turns out

1732
01:39:28,560 --> 01:39:32,200
Speaker 1: Aaron Cohen is a name that asylums used when names

1733
01:39:32,360 --> 01:39:37,040
Speaker 1: like for example, Kosminsky would have been too hard to pronounce,

1734
01:39:37,320 --> 01:39:39,639
Speaker 1: or like the person admitting that person to an asylum

1735
01:39:39,800 --> 01:39:42,639
Speaker 1: was lazy. It was like it was like a John Doe. Okay,

1736
01:39:43,640 --> 01:39:45,360
Speaker 1: they were like, that name is too hard to spell.

1737
01:39:45,479 --> 01:39:48,880
Speaker 1: We're just gonna say you're Cohen from now on. So

1738
01:39:49,400 --> 01:39:53,760
Speaker 1: Aaron David Cohen a k A. Nathan Kozminski was a

1739
01:39:53,800 --> 01:39:57,360
Speaker 1: bootmaker in Whitechapel in the area until on the twelfth

1740
01:39:57,439 --> 01:40:05,559
Speaker 1: of December. He was institutionalized because syphilis. He was crazy,

1741
01:40:05,680 --> 01:40:08,800
Speaker 1: it turns out, and kind of the killing time. Kind Uh.

1742
01:40:08,960 --> 01:40:11,400
Speaker 1: It's hard to tell because you know, records are sketchy,

1743
01:40:11,760 --> 01:40:15,320
Speaker 1: but I recommend a Google on this guy. He was violent.

1744
01:40:15,760 --> 01:40:18,839
Speaker 1: He was violent against women, he was violent against nurses.

1745
01:40:19,120 --> 01:40:24,639
Speaker 1: He went kind of crazy. He was institutionalized just right

1746
01:40:24,760 --> 01:40:31,240
Speaker 1: after the like conical murders. I can say that word

1747
01:40:31,280 --> 01:40:36,080
Speaker 1: tonight ended. His last name was Kiminski instead of Kosminski.

1748
01:40:36,320 --> 01:40:39,040
Speaker 1: He was a polished Jew who was a bootmaker who

1749
01:40:39,080 --> 01:40:42,320
Speaker 1: wore a leather apron at the time. I think that,

1750
01:40:42,880 --> 01:40:46,479
Speaker 1: you know, if we're talking about like strong Kosminsky, I

1751
01:40:46,720 --> 01:40:49,799
Speaker 1: I suggest David in the name Minsky has been spelled

1752
01:40:49,880 --> 01:40:52,760
Speaker 1: many ways, and there's been a lot of conjecture over

1753
01:40:53,160 --> 01:40:57,600
Speaker 1: which Kosminski was. So I think that David Cohen is

1754
01:40:57,640 --> 01:41:02,200
Speaker 1: a huge problem for the Kosminsky situation. Yeah, no, it's

1755
01:41:02,200 --> 01:41:05,280
Speaker 1: all confused. I mean, what's his name, Like the same

1756
01:41:05,320 --> 01:41:09,519
Speaker 1: thing with Klosowski was a k. George Chapman. I mean,

1757
01:41:09,640 --> 01:41:11,840
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, they've all got these kind of like

1758
01:41:12,080 --> 01:41:17,000
Speaker 1: similar sounding names and it's just a big jumble. Yeah,

1759
01:41:17,040 --> 01:41:20,479
Speaker 1: I agree. Yeah, So anyway, I think I think we'd

1760
01:41:20,479 --> 01:41:26,280
Speaker 1: agree that the ripper was probably not just kidding. No.

1761
01:41:26,439 --> 01:41:28,360
Speaker 1: I mean I have I have an outlier that I'd

1762
01:41:28,360 --> 01:41:30,160
Speaker 1: like to bring up that we've talked about a little bit.

1763
01:41:30,280 --> 01:41:33,439
Speaker 1: And you know, he's not accepted as a serious. Yeah,

1764
01:41:33,840 --> 01:41:36,120
Speaker 1: let's have it because I've got some not so serious Yeah,

1765
01:41:36,200 --> 01:41:39,160
Speaker 1: And we talked about him a little bit. George Hutchinson,

1766
01:41:40,080 --> 01:41:44,360
Speaker 1: the dude who like stood outside of Mary Kelly. Yeah,

1767
01:41:44,640 --> 01:41:47,160
Speaker 1: and then like and then was like, yeah, no, his

1768
01:41:47,240 --> 01:41:52,519
Speaker 1: eyelashes were black. I think, you know, as previously stated,

1769
01:41:53,200 --> 01:41:57,160
Speaker 1: on November twelve, George went to the London Police to

1770
01:41:57,200 --> 01:42:01,120
Speaker 1: make a statement about the November nine killing Mary Jane Kelly.

1771
01:42:01,520 --> 01:42:05,160
Speaker 1: He gave a super detailed description which we just talked

1772
01:42:05,200 --> 01:42:09,759
Speaker 1: about and nobody really believes this description. And in fact,

1773
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:17,040
Speaker 1: one of the inspectors said that, uh, maybe maybe George

1774
01:42:17,120 --> 01:42:20,920
Speaker 1: was trying to cover his tracks, or maybe maybe George

1775
01:42:21,040 --> 01:42:23,400
Speaker 1: was you know actually a lot of it's not uncommon

1776
01:42:23,560 --> 01:42:28,040
Speaker 1: for sir killers to insert themselves into the investigation. Yeah,

1777
01:42:28,200 --> 01:42:30,080
Speaker 1: that was I mean, that's kind of the conjecture here,

1778
01:42:30,160 --> 01:42:32,560
Speaker 1: is that like he was like, oh, yeah, you know,

1779
01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:34,800
Speaker 1: he got a great look at him and this is

1780
01:42:34,840 --> 01:42:37,400
Speaker 1: exactly what he looked like, and but he wanted to

1781
01:42:37,439 --> 01:42:39,519
Speaker 1: be a part of it. The other thing is that

1782
01:42:40,320 --> 01:42:43,400
Speaker 1: he was he was pretty broke and at the time

1783
01:42:43,880 --> 01:42:45,960
Speaker 1: he would have made a whole lot of money selling

1784
01:42:46,040 --> 01:42:49,599
Speaker 1: his story to the newspaper. But he is brought up

1785
01:42:49,680 --> 01:42:52,760
Speaker 1: as like a vague kind of there's not a whole

1786
01:42:52,760 --> 01:42:54,639
Speaker 1: lot of information on him, but it could. I mean,

1787
01:42:54,720 --> 01:43:00,439
Speaker 1: it's it's possible, possible, not plausible possible. The next outlier

1788
01:43:00,560 --> 01:43:04,280
Speaker 1: that we've got is what's often referred to as the

1789
01:43:04,479 --> 01:43:11,360
Speaker 1: Royal conspiracy and the Freemason connection. And I could walk

1790
01:43:11,479 --> 01:43:14,040
Speaker 1: through that, but we we talked with Richard about this,

1791
01:43:14,320 --> 01:43:17,280
Speaker 1: and I really like the way he puts it. We're

1792
01:43:17,320 --> 01:43:21,920
Speaker 1: actually gonna have Richard explained the Royal conspiracy and then

1793
01:43:22,080 --> 01:43:27,479
Speaker 1: how that ties in with the Freemasons. The classic one

1794
01:43:27,560 --> 01:43:30,479
Speaker 1: here has causes the Royal conspiracy and the fact it

1795
01:43:30,560 --> 01:43:32,679
Speaker 1: might have been a member of the royal family, which

1796
01:43:33,240 --> 01:43:36,080
Speaker 1: is one of my favorites. This is it. It's been

1797
01:43:36,160 --> 01:43:39,479
Speaker 1: around since the fifties, the Royal family theory. The member

1798
01:43:39,479 --> 01:43:41,439
Speaker 1: of the royal family in question was Prince Albert, ed

1799
01:43:41,520 --> 01:43:44,519
Speaker 1: with Victor, who was Queen Victoria's grandson and would have

1800
01:43:44,560 --> 01:43:48,519
Speaker 1: been King of England except he died in eight But

1801
01:43:49,360 --> 01:43:52,800
Speaker 1: we know his whereabouts on the knights of most of

1802
01:43:52,880 --> 01:43:54,840
Speaker 1: the murders, and he I mean the knights of the

1803
01:43:54,880 --> 01:43:58,680
Speaker 1: double murder. He wasn't even in London, so we know

1804
01:43:58,800 --> 01:44:02,400
Speaker 1: where he was. He was, so that he probably wasn't.

1805
01:44:02,800 --> 01:44:05,280
Speaker 1: And then that comes into the Royal conspiracy theory that

1806
01:44:05,360 --> 01:44:08,479
Speaker 1: Prince Albert Edward Victor had had a child by his

1807
01:44:08,600 --> 01:44:13,240
Speaker 1: mistress Annie Elizabeth Crook. The Freemasons had broken the family

1808
01:44:13,360 --> 01:44:16,280
Speaker 1: up because the chart that it's all to do with

1809
01:44:16,320 --> 01:44:19,120
Speaker 1: her being a Catholic and everything. The Masons had broken

1810
01:44:19,160 --> 01:44:21,960
Speaker 1: the family up. The child was smuggled to safety by

1811
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:24,040
Speaker 1: their servant, girl Mary Kelly, who brought it to the

1812
01:44:24,080 --> 01:44:28,320
Speaker 1: East end of London, and then she told the felling

1813
01:44:28,360 --> 01:44:30,880
Speaker 1: with a gaggle of drunken prostitutes, told them what she knew,

1814
01:44:31,040 --> 01:44:33,519
Speaker 1: and they started black men in the royal family. So

1815
01:44:33,680 --> 01:44:36,840
Speaker 1: the Mason set out to silence all the prostitutes, and

1816
01:44:36,960 --> 01:44:39,280
Speaker 1: they did it with the royal physician, Sir William Gold,

1817
01:44:39,439 --> 01:44:42,320
Speaker 1: who went around in a carriage and depending on what

1818
01:44:42,479 --> 01:44:44,840
Speaker 1: film version that tempts them to the carriage by showing

1819
01:44:44,880 --> 01:44:48,600
Speaker 1: them bunches of grapes and then they get murdered and

1820
01:44:48,720 --> 01:44:51,479
Speaker 1: Mary Kelly is the last victim. So with that, the

1821
01:44:51,560 --> 01:44:53,760
Speaker 1: murders coming to an end because there's no longer the

1822
01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:58,240
Speaker 1: threat of the royal family or society being blackmailed. Wonderful theory,

1823
01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:02,280
Speaker 1: but it's probably just a spiracy theory. That's a fun theory,

1824
01:45:02,400 --> 01:45:05,880
Speaker 1: but theory it doesn't. Yeah, but it doesn't bring it

1825
01:45:05,880 --> 01:45:10,120
Speaker 1: in account. Why than the mutilations took place? Now, I mean,

1826
01:45:10,880 --> 01:45:12,280
Speaker 1: as I said, I would love to believe it was

1827
01:45:12,320 --> 01:45:18,400
Speaker 1: a deranged ancestor of Prince Charles, but no, you know,

1828
01:45:18,520 --> 01:45:20,519
Speaker 1: you bring up another good point there, which is the

1829
01:45:20,640 --> 01:45:23,839
Speaker 1: Mason's and I've I've heard them refer seen them referred

1830
01:45:23,880 --> 01:45:26,040
Speaker 1: to in a lot of this. And is that just

1831
01:45:26,160 --> 01:45:31,880
Speaker 1: based mostly from this, this royal theory or it mostly

1832
01:45:32,000 --> 01:45:34,680
Speaker 1: comes out of that. The whole thing came in well,

1833
01:45:34,680 --> 01:45:36,080
Speaker 1: first of all came up with it was Jack the

1834
01:45:36,120 --> 01:45:38,479
Speaker 1: Ripe of the Final Solution and it was a book

1835
01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:42,439
Speaker 1: by Stephen Knight, and Stephen Knight was based on a

1836
01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:46,040
Speaker 1: chatterman called Joseph Sicker to what the claim was that

1837
01:45:47,040 --> 01:45:50,040
Speaker 1: the Joseph sick had claimed that he was he was

1838
01:45:50,120 --> 01:45:53,080
Speaker 1: related in some way to it, and so he went

1839
01:45:53,080 --> 01:45:56,120
Speaker 1: and so he gave the theory to Stephen Knight. Stephen

1840
01:45:56,200 --> 01:45:59,120
Speaker 1: Knight and then developed the theory both on both of

1841
01:45:59,160 --> 01:46:03,360
Speaker 1: them and are dead. But it's it's it. I mean,

1842
01:46:03,840 --> 01:46:06,720
Speaker 1: it's wonderful to think that it's it's a government conspiracy,

1843
01:46:06,800 --> 01:46:09,000
Speaker 1: that the Mason's got involved, and that everyone did it.

1844
01:46:09,560 --> 01:46:12,559
Speaker 1: And of course people like people didn't like that type

1845
01:46:12,600 --> 01:46:18,599
Speaker 1: of conspiracy theory. But it's it's highly unlikely. But as

1846
01:46:18,640 --> 01:46:21,720
Speaker 1: I say, but the Masons being such a shadowy organization,

1847
01:46:21,880 --> 01:46:24,680
Speaker 1: you know that everyone's got this, They've got this mystique

1848
01:46:24,680 --> 01:46:27,759
Speaker 1: about them and all the rituals they perform and everything.

1849
01:46:27,960 --> 01:46:29,880
Speaker 1: So it's it's I mean, this is the whole process

1850
01:46:30,000 --> 01:46:32,840
Speaker 1: of murder. But I decree the Christopher Plumber film also

1851
01:46:33,200 --> 01:46:36,479
Speaker 1: the Front Health film as well. But let's say it's

1852
01:46:36,600 --> 01:46:40,639
Speaker 1: it's it's good entertainment, but as historical fact, it leaves

1853
01:46:40,640 --> 01:46:43,400
Speaker 1: a lot to be desired. But it is cool though,

1854
01:46:43,439 --> 01:46:45,280
Speaker 1: And if you could find a tire to like, say

1855
01:46:45,520 --> 01:46:48,040
Speaker 1: the Knights Templar and the Holy Grail, that would be

1856
01:46:48,080 --> 01:46:50,720
Speaker 1: even more awesome. How it's fantastic. I mean, it's all

1857
01:46:50,760 --> 01:46:52,719
Speaker 1: you need is that, you know, maybe have Princess Diana

1858
01:46:52,840 --> 01:46:55,560
Speaker 1: involved in it as well. Yeah, I'm gonna work on that.

1859
01:46:55,880 --> 01:46:58,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna come and get Rolls Well involved, you know,

1860
01:46:58,439 --> 01:47:05,000
Speaker 1: get a few alien abductions and maybe having escaping on

1861
01:47:05,040 --> 01:47:08,439
Speaker 1: the Titanic, and you've done it so well. So anyway,

1862
01:47:08,640 --> 01:47:13,880
Speaker 1: I'm not convinced. Well, I I also have I have

1863
01:47:14,080 --> 01:47:17,040
Speaker 1: one other outlier that I liked that I wanted to

1864
01:47:17,120 --> 01:47:22,240
Speaker 1: bring up because there's actually some credence to it. You

1865
01:47:22,360 --> 01:47:25,200
Speaker 1: got to talk about the aliens, No, I'm not. We're

1866
01:47:25,240 --> 01:47:27,679
Speaker 1: gonna talk about a guy by the name of Carl

1867
01:47:27,800 --> 01:47:36,840
Speaker 1: fine Bomb. Okay, Carl fine Bomb. I'm not sure how

1868
01:47:36,880 --> 01:47:42,840
Speaker 1: to pronounces yeah, fining bomb. Okay. Well, anyway, Carl was

1869
01:47:43,080 --> 01:47:47,960
Speaker 1: executed in the electric chair on the twenty seventh of

1870
01:47:48,200 --> 01:47:52,760
Speaker 1: April eighteen nineties six for the brutal murder of a

1871
01:47:52,840 --> 01:47:59,120
Speaker 1: woman by the name of Julianna Hoffman. Carl murderer by

1872
01:47:59,320 --> 01:48:04,200
Speaker 1: slitting her throat. He was not able to do anything

1873
01:48:04,240 --> 01:48:09,439
Speaker 1: else because her son interrupted the murder and he jumped

1874
01:48:09,439 --> 01:48:13,040
Speaker 1: out a window onto the roof, and then Carl took

1875
01:48:13,080 --> 01:48:16,760
Speaker 1: off and they caught him. But here's the thing that's

1876
01:48:16,840 --> 01:48:20,920
Speaker 1: not his real name. We don't know. We don't know

1877
01:48:21,080 --> 01:48:24,040
Speaker 1: exactly what his name is. His name could be it

1878
01:48:24,240 --> 01:48:27,760
Speaker 1: was Anton or maybe Carl with a C or a

1879
01:48:27,920 --> 01:48:34,920
Speaker 1: k zon or zom or stro bomb like a stro bond,

1880
01:48:35,400 --> 01:48:39,519
Speaker 1: I don't know. He evidently changed his name at some point,

1881
01:48:39,600 --> 01:48:41,840
Speaker 1: but we don't know why. And evidently he did this

1882
01:48:41,960 --> 01:48:47,320
Speaker 1: on a regular basis. Where where did Well, this murder

1883
01:48:47,520 --> 01:48:51,960
Speaker 1: happened in the United States, so it wasn't in England.

1884
01:48:52,439 --> 01:48:55,440
Speaker 1: But he was a sailor and in the eighteen eighties

1885
01:48:55,920 --> 01:48:59,519
Speaker 1: he was you know, he had a merchant lifestyle, a

1886
01:48:59,640 --> 01:49:06,680
Speaker 1: marine her lifestyle, and his whereabouts aren't exactly clear. But

1887
01:49:07,000 --> 01:49:11,639
Speaker 1: what we know is that he supposedly could have been

1888
01:49:11,720 --> 01:49:15,080
Speaker 1: and would have been in the area in England at

1889
01:49:15,120 --> 01:49:19,040
Speaker 1: the time, in London. Uh. And then the other thing,

1890
01:49:19,160 --> 01:49:22,640
Speaker 1: and this is the what drew me to it. Okay, well,

1891
01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:24,759
Speaker 1: I said it had a lot of credence. It's actually

1892
01:49:24,840 --> 01:49:28,680
Speaker 1: pretty weak, but I like it anyway, is Uh. What

1893
01:49:28,880 --> 01:49:33,360
Speaker 1: we know is that after he was executed, as soon

1894
01:49:33,479 --> 01:49:37,720
Speaker 1: as his declaration of death was put out, his attorney,

1895
01:49:38,320 --> 01:49:44,280
Speaker 1: William Sanford Lawton, stated, I believe that Carl Feinnenbaum who

1896
01:49:44,439 --> 01:49:47,120
Speaker 1: you have just seen put to death in the electric chair,

1897
01:49:47,600 --> 01:49:50,799
Speaker 1: can easily be connected with the Jack the Ripper murders

1898
01:49:50,840 --> 01:49:54,920
Speaker 1: in Whitechapel. I will stake my professional reputation on that.

1899
01:49:55,200 --> 01:49:58,040
Speaker 1: If the police will trace this man's movements carefully for

1900
01:49:58,120 --> 01:50:01,600
Speaker 1: the last few years, there investigations will lead them to

1901
01:50:01,760 --> 01:50:04,840
Speaker 1: London and to White Chapel. But did he provide any

1902
01:50:05,040 --> 01:50:11,479
Speaker 1: evidence or of course not, of course not seeking attorney. Yeah,

1903
01:50:11,600 --> 01:50:14,519
Speaker 1: I actually I think that this guy was looking to

1904
01:50:14,840 --> 01:50:19,439
Speaker 1: cause a little media splash. But it is interesting that,

1905
01:50:19,760 --> 01:50:22,960
Speaker 1: you know it was. It wasn't just a quick slash.

1906
01:50:23,160 --> 01:50:26,479
Speaker 1: He really cut this lady's throat in a vicious manner

1907
01:50:27,080 --> 01:50:30,559
Speaker 1: while she was in bed, and we don't know where

1908
01:50:30,680 --> 01:50:33,840
Speaker 1: he was, and we don't know what he could have

1909
01:50:33,920 --> 01:50:37,400
Speaker 1: been doing that whole time. So he's just this ephemeral,

1910
01:50:37,560 --> 01:50:41,160
Speaker 1: mysterious person. Yeah, it could have been, But I mean,

1911
01:50:41,280 --> 01:50:44,920
Speaker 1: what the circumstances of this particular murder though, which it

1912
01:50:45,120 --> 01:50:50,200
Speaker 1: was The woman he murdered. Was she a prostitute? No? No,

1913
01:50:50,520 --> 01:50:56,160
Speaker 1: what how this whole thing went down? Is she was?

1914
01:50:56,240 --> 01:50:58,360
Speaker 1: I think it was New York Is where this took place.

1915
01:50:59,120 --> 01:51:03,680
Speaker 1: She needed some money, so she decided to rent out

1916
01:51:03,760 --> 01:51:08,439
Speaker 1: a room in her house and he was her first lodger,

1917
01:51:09,240 --> 01:51:13,200
Speaker 1: first and last. Yeah, it sounds like it without saying yeah,

1918
01:51:13,760 --> 01:51:17,679
Speaker 1: and within a day or three I if I remember

1919
01:51:17,720 --> 01:51:20,840
Speaker 1: the details correctly, then he committed the murder. He killed her,

1920
01:51:20,960 --> 01:51:25,360
Speaker 1: so he if it didn't take long. But it's just weird.

1921
01:51:25,800 --> 01:51:31,439
Speaker 1: I was thinking about but maybe not thinking that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

1922
01:51:31,600 --> 01:51:36,320
Speaker 1: so I'm thinking probably that it's possible, but no reason

1923
01:51:36,400 --> 01:51:39,400
Speaker 1: to really believe. So so yeah, no, no, I I

1924
01:51:39,600 --> 01:51:42,840
Speaker 1: completely agree with you on there. Uh. And you know,

1925
01:51:42,960 --> 01:51:45,200
Speaker 1: there's the issue of and one of the things that

1926
01:51:45,320 --> 01:51:47,880
Speaker 1: was brought up was that it potentially if this guy

1927
01:51:48,080 --> 01:51:54,040
Speaker 1: wasn't it, it's but possible that the ripper was a sailor,

1928
01:51:55,000 --> 01:51:58,120
Speaker 1: would explain why he was out of town for weeks

1929
01:51:58,200 --> 01:52:01,599
Speaker 1: on end and the murders didn't happened. But my issue

1930
01:52:01,680 --> 01:52:04,519
Speaker 1: with that is why don't we hear about these kind

1931
01:52:04,600 --> 01:52:09,679
Speaker 1: of grizzly murders in other ports of call, even places

1932
01:52:09,720 --> 01:52:12,680
Speaker 1: that aren't super super populated. You would think that there

1933
01:52:12,680 --> 01:52:15,600
Speaker 1: would be record of a prostitute or a woman with

1934
01:52:15,760 --> 01:52:19,720
Speaker 1: her throat slit and her organs pulled out. There'd be some.

1935
01:52:21,640 --> 01:52:25,960
Speaker 1: It was definitely like a widely publicized thing too. I mean,

1936
01:52:26,040 --> 01:52:29,320
Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't just like, oh you only know

1937
01:52:29,400 --> 01:52:32,040
Speaker 1: about this in White Chaplain in London. No, the whole

1938
01:52:32,120 --> 01:52:34,440
Speaker 1: world was looking for this guy. They were all fascinated

1939
01:52:34,520 --> 01:52:38,160
Speaker 1: by him, and he was a new sensation worldwide. So

1940
01:52:38,360 --> 01:52:41,080
Speaker 1: you know, if one woman showed up with something like

1941
01:52:41,200 --> 01:52:43,360
Speaker 1: that in any other port of call, it would have

1942
01:52:43,400 --> 01:52:45,920
Speaker 1: set off alarm bells. I mean, it just would have. Um,

1943
01:52:46,840 --> 01:52:49,280
Speaker 1: it's absolutely true, although you know it might be it

1944
01:52:49,400 --> 01:52:52,000
Speaker 1: might be also the fact that he was a sailor,

1945
01:52:52,240 --> 01:52:56,120
Speaker 1: but perhaps he was also like a racist, like say,

1946
01:52:56,160 --> 01:52:59,000
Speaker 1: he was a German who hated the Brits, so he

1947
01:52:59,120 --> 01:53:02,120
Speaker 1: did a special isles to their bodies. But when he

1948
01:53:02,240 --> 01:53:04,840
Speaker 1: was like often you know, other other ports, he didn't

1949
01:53:04,920 --> 01:53:09,360
Speaker 1: he stabbed people to death, but didn't didn't sad. Yeah,

1950
01:53:09,680 --> 01:53:12,959
Speaker 1: it's possible something like that too. Yeah, No, that's that's possible.

1951
01:53:13,160 --> 01:53:16,479
Speaker 1: And and the big mystery about this, this whole Jack

1952
01:53:16,560 --> 01:53:21,080
Speaker 1: the Ripper story, is that we have this time frame

1953
01:53:21,200 --> 01:53:25,120
Speaker 1: where the canonical five are murdered, very short time frame,

1954
01:53:25,360 --> 01:53:28,840
Speaker 1: and then it stops. Yeah, and it's a little weird

1955
01:53:29,080 --> 01:53:33,760
Speaker 1: as to why it possibly could have stopped. And there's

1956
01:53:33,840 --> 01:53:37,080
Speaker 1: theories about, well, he was caught and he was committed

1957
01:53:37,479 --> 01:53:42,320
Speaker 1: or he committed suicide or anything like that. And and

1958
01:53:42,520 --> 01:53:46,360
Speaker 1: we we did put that question to Richard because we

1959
01:53:46,479 --> 01:53:50,320
Speaker 1: wanted to know, because he's done so much research on it,

1960
01:53:50,760 --> 01:53:55,160
Speaker 1: why he thought they just stopped. So suddenly the can

1961
01:53:55,520 --> 01:53:58,679
Speaker 1: have been there's there's a handful of reasons for the murders,

1962
01:53:58,720 --> 01:54:00,599
Speaker 1: because someone like this doesn't get fed up and think,

1963
01:54:00,640 --> 01:54:02,160
Speaker 1: while I enjoyed that, but I think I'm going to

1964
01:54:02,200 --> 01:54:07,560
Speaker 1: collect stamps. Now, something stopped him killing that either he

1965
01:54:07,680 --> 01:54:10,240
Speaker 1: got caught, he might have died. So he could have

1966
01:54:10,320 --> 01:54:12,479
Speaker 1: died if if I say, if he had been given

1967
01:54:12,520 --> 01:54:14,160
Speaker 1: a disease, he could have he could have died of

1968
01:54:14,240 --> 01:54:18,120
Speaker 1: that disease. He could have committed suicide. He could have

1969
01:54:18,200 --> 01:54:21,280
Speaker 1: been with his family who realized what had happened, and

1970
01:54:21,320 --> 01:54:23,920
Speaker 1: so they put him into a private assignment. That's a possibility.

1971
01:54:24,320 --> 01:54:27,120
Speaker 1: Now the possibilities he went somewhere else, he moved and

1972
01:54:27,439 --> 01:54:30,920
Speaker 1: continued killing, and they didn't make the connecting. You know,

1973
01:54:31,040 --> 01:54:33,040
Speaker 1: they didn't make the connection between the two, which is

1974
01:54:33,080 --> 01:54:35,440
Speaker 1: highly unlikely because they were looking for him all over

1975
01:54:35,480 --> 01:54:37,600
Speaker 1: the world. I mean, there's everyone the world over knew

1976
01:54:37,600 --> 01:54:39,680
Speaker 1: about these killings. So if he had gone somewhere else,

1977
01:54:40,120 --> 01:54:42,880
Speaker 1: the connection would have been made. The other possibilities the

1978
01:54:42,880 --> 01:54:45,560
Speaker 1: police did catch their man, whether they knew it was

1979
01:54:45,600 --> 01:54:48,080
Speaker 1: the ripper, It's possible he was arrested for another crime,

1980
01:54:48,680 --> 01:54:51,080
Speaker 1: went into it, went into a prison and they didn't

1981
01:54:51,120 --> 01:54:53,560
Speaker 1: realize who they got. Yeah, I mean, there's there's all

1982
01:54:53,600 --> 01:54:56,040
Speaker 1: sorts of there's all sorts of suspects who came into

1983
01:54:56,080 --> 01:54:57,960
Speaker 1: the area left because the other thing about the area

1984
01:54:58,080 --> 01:55:00,160
Speaker 1: was because it was close to the docks, so you

1985
01:55:00,240 --> 01:55:04,840
Speaker 1: did have a lot of each of ships shipping coming

1986
01:55:04,880 --> 01:55:07,480
Speaker 1: into the port of London very close to the doctor.

1987
01:55:07,520 --> 01:55:09,680
Speaker 1: He had foreign sailors coming in left, right and center,

1988
01:55:10,280 --> 01:55:15,360
Speaker 1: and you had say one of the reasons for the gaps.

1989
01:55:15,680 --> 01:55:17,640
Speaker 1: All the theory is that the reason for the gaps

1990
01:55:17,760 --> 01:55:19,640
Speaker 1: is because it could have been someone on a ship

1991
01:55:19,760 --> 01:55:22,240
Speaker 1: who was out of London for a period of time

1992
01:55:22,520 --> 01:55:25,800
Speaker 1: and then came back again and commenced murdering. The other

1993
01:55:26,000 --> 01:55:28,800
Speaker 1: interesting one is that the famous the Dr Tumblety, the

1994
01:55:28,840 --> 01:55:32,880
Speaker 1: American who's h who was arrested for acts of gross

1995
01:55:32,920 --> 01:55:38,160
Speaker 1: indecency and seems to have been a quite a favor

1996
01:55:38,280 --> 01:55:41,400
Speaker 1: favored suspect and he skipped bail when he was released

1997
01:55:41,440 --> 01:55:43,480
Speaker 1: from police custody. He they said, you're not going to

1998
01:55:43,560 --> 01:55:45,240
Speaker 1: run off are He said, no, no, no, and then

1999
01:55:45,280 --> 01:55:48,360
Speaker 1: he skipped bail and went to America where he was.

2000
01:55:48,800 --> 01:55:53,280
Speaker 1: Now the interesting about tumble Tears that Dr tumblet everybody

2001
01:55:53,360 --> 01:55:55,520
Speaker 1: knew where he was. The reporters were staking at his

2002
01:55:55,600 --> 01:55:59,280
Speaker 1: house in New York, and Inspector burn at NYPD actually

2003
01:55:59,320 --> 01:56:01,600
Speaker 1: had him on the valence and the reporters in America

2004
01:56:01,640 --> 01:56:05,440
Speaker 1: were going to him and saying, you know, in America

2005
01:56:05,480 --> 01:56:07,640
Speaker 1: they seem to have known that he was suspected for

2006
01:56:07,680 --> 01:56:10,560
Speaker 1: the Whitechapel murders, and they said, you know, is he

2007
01:56:10,600 --> 01:56:12,000
Speaker 1: going to go back? And he said, now, he said,

2008
01:56:12,000 --> 01:56:14,680
Speaker 1: what tumbled he is wanted for is not extracitable, So

2009
01:56:14,760 --> 01:56:17,040
Speaker 1: he couldn't have been extraunited for what he had done,

2010
01:56:17,440 --> 01:56:19,600
Speaker 1: which seems to have been he actually got caught up

2011
01:56:19,680 --> 01:56:21,520
Speaker 1: that there was this act of gross and decency with

2012
01:56:21,680 --> 01:56:24,600
Speaker 1: several men and that that's what he'd done, and that

2013
01:56:24,640 --> 01:56:26,480
Speaker 1: could he couldn't have been expracited for that. But he

2014
01:56:26,760 --> 01:56:28,400
Speaker 1: obviously if he had been a murder, he would have

2015
01:56:28,440 --> 01:56:32,920
Speaker 1: been extradited. So obviously NYPD and the London police didn't

2016
01:56:32,920 --> 01:56:35,800
Speaker 1: seem to think he was the Ripper. A lot of

2017
01:56:35,840 --> 01:56:37,839
Speaker 1: people think that he went to America and then disappeared,

2018
01:56:37,880 --> 01:56:44,440
Speaker 1: which is just not true. So this is awful what

2019
01:56:45,320 --> 01:56:48,520
Speaker 1: Jackie Ripper, just like, in general, Jackie Ripper is pretty awful.

2020
01:56:48,520 --> 01:56:51,440
Speaker 1: Are you gonna say he's misunderstood? No, I mean it's

2021
01:56:51,520 --> 01:56:53,840
Speaker 1: like an awful story. And I guess it like rounds

2022
01:56:53,840 --> 01:56:57,200
Speaker 1: out our October and I'm kind of honestly happy that

2023
01:56:57,280 --> 01:57:00,240
Speaker 1: we're time with October. Now we can go do like

2024
01:57:00,320 --> 01:57:04,280
Speaker 1: really interesting stuff, not creepy grizzly yeah, not weird creepy

2025
01:57:04,320 --> 01:57:06,840
Speaker 1: grizzly stuff. But I think, you know, we don't. I

2026
01:57:06,880 --> 01:57:08,760
Speaker 1: don't think we need to talk about theories. I think

2027
01:57:08,800 --> 01:57:13,760
Speaker 1: that's out there well, and we've talked about obviously the

2028
01:57:13,840 --> 01:57:17,919
Speaker 1: stuff that we kind of like, and we obviously curated

2029
01:57:17,960 --> 01:57:21,080
Speaker 1: this episode all so I don't think we need to.

2030
01:57:21,160 --> 01:57:23,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we're pretty good. Would you guys

2031
01:57:23,040 --> 01:57:29,520
Speaker 1: think we're good? Yeah, I think we're there. We kid,

2032
01:57:31,760 --> 01:57:33,440
Speaker 1: I can't blame this one on that, So I guess

2033
01:57:33,600 --> 01:57:36,800
Speaker 1: you know, there will be probably a lot of links

2034
01:57:37,080 --> 01:57:40,839
Speaker 1: on our web, which is um of course, as always

2035
01:57:40,920 --> 01:57:44,800
Speaker 1: thinking Sideways podcast dot com. And by the way, of course,

2036
01:57:45,080 --> 01:57:46,600
Speaker 1: you know as you said, all the links are gonna

2037
01:57:46,600 --> 01:57:51,000
Speaker 1: be on there. We will have the link to Richard's

2038
01:57:51,080 --> 01:57:55,280
Speaker 1: website to company on there. And if you are if

2039
01:57:55,320 --> 01:57:58,200
Speaker 1: you're gonna be in in London, if you are in

2040
01:57:58,320 --> 01:58:02,960
Speaker 1: London and you are the tour, I've been on ripper

2041
01:58:03,000 --> 01:58:07,080
Speaker 1: tours and they're awesome. Yeah, those tours are fantastic and

2042
01:58:07,280 --> 01:58:09,760
Speaker 1: you really get to see the neighborhood and you really

2043
01:58:09,840 --> 01:58:12,520
Speaker 1: get to see it from the street and it really

2044
01:58:12,720 --> 01:58:15,280
Speaker 1: is awesome. And by the way, that doesn't doesn't rich

2045
01:58:15,360 --> 01:58:19,160
Speaker 1: or have a book coming out? I believe, Well, Richard

2046
01:58:19,240 --> 01:58:21,800
Speaker 1: has written two books, and I didn't know that he

2047
01:58:21,920 --> 01:58:27,000
Speaker 1: had a third. Okay, well, okay, probably on his website. Sorry,

2048
01:58:27,080 --> 01:58:30,280
Speaker 1: we were way off traffic. The other place you could

2049
01:58:30,720 --> 01:58:33,440
Speaker 1: be listening to us as iTunes, you probably are. If

2050
01:58:33,520 --> 01:58:35,600
Speaker 1: you are, feel free to leave us a comment in

2051
01:58:35,640 --> 01:58:42,880
Speaker 1: a rating. As always, we love that you know, we

2052
01:58:43,280 --> 01:58:45,680
Speaker 1: drop our shows every Thursday, so if it's Thursday and

2053
01:58:45,720 --> 01:58:47,520
Speaker 1: you realize you haven't downloaded it, you can stream a

2054
01:58:47,600 --> 01:58:51,920
Speaker 1: straight from Stitcher. It's always a good thing. We've also

2055
01:58:52,160 --> 01:58:55,120
Speaker 1: added a couple of others we have, Yeah, we've We've

2056
01:58:55,200 --> 01:58:58,320
Speaker 1: added tune in dot com. So we're on there. Now,

2057
01:58:59,320 --> 01:59:02,120
Speaker 1: I know that we are in a couple of the

2058
01:59:02,320 --> 01:59:06,440
Speaker 1: apps that are really popular, that the podcast apps for

2059
01:59:06,520 --> 01:59:09,000
Speaker 1: the iOS and the Android we've gotten on their list

2060
01:59:09,800 --> 01:59:14,200
Speaker 1: Fangled apps. Yeah things, We're in a bunch of places. Now.

2061
01:59:14,520 --> 01:59:17,640
Speaker 1: Check the website. It lists everywhere that we're available for

2062
01:59:17,720 --> 01:59:20,800
Speaker 1: downloads and streaming. Yeah. And you know the other place

2063
01:59:20,880 --> 01:59:24,200
Speaker 1: you can find us as Facebook. Um, there's a group

2064
01:59:24,640 --> 01:59:28,320
Speaker 1: and page. You can like us and join the group.

2065
01:59:28,960 --> 01:59:34,120
Speaker 1: Some good conversations happening there. Um. We also, as of

2066
01:59:34,280 --> 01:59:40,120
Speaker 1: this week, are on Twitter. Find us, find us, and

2067
01:59:40,200 --> 01:59:42,880
Speaker 1: follow us, and we'll figure out how to use this Twitter. Yeah.

2068
01:59:43,080 --> 01:59:45,840
Speaker 1: I'm the youngest one in this room, and I'm like,

2069
01:59:46,080 --> 01:59:48,040
Speaker 1: don't know totally how to use it. So we're going

2070
01:59:48,080 --> 01:59:58,680
Speaker 1: to figure it out with text messaging services yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

2071
01:59:59,040 --> 02:00:02,200
Speaker 1: And other than that, I don't know, but yeah. And

2072
02:00:02,560 --> 02:00:06,600
Speaker 1: then you can always send us an email that email addresses. Again,

2073
02:00:06,960 --> 02:00:11,240
Speaker 1: as always Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. We

2074
02:00:11,480 --> 02:00:13,720
Speaker 1: have a couple of emails that we should be reading,

2075
02:00:14,240 --> 02:00:17,120
Speaker 1: but this show is like two and a half hours long,

2076
02:00:17,160 --> 02:00:19,360
Speaker 1: so we're gonna go ahead and postpone those for just

2077
02:00:19,560 --> 02:00:22,240
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. I'm sorry about that whoever, you know,

2078
02:00:22,400 --> 02:00:25,440
Speaker 1: we replied to you, I promise we'll read you soon.

2079
02:00:26,720 --> 02:00:29,000
Speaker 1: It's two and a half hours is too long. So

2080
02:00:29,160 --> 02:00:35,240
Speaker 1: with that, I say good night by everybody to Lou

2081
02:00:36,480 --> 02:00:48,840
Speaker 1: George Clinty. No, I think I think we've thinking that.

2082
02:00:49,200 --> 02:00:52,080
Speaker 1: I think we've solved the mystery. I think we have now.

2083
02:00:52,120 --> 02:00:54,520
Speaker 1: Actually I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you who my suspect is.

2084
02:00:56,320 --> 02:00:59,160
Speaker 1: Have you noticed he made a Ripper movie number one,

2085
02:01:00,000 --> 02:01:05,360
Speaker 1: and you know he doesn't seem to age. Yeah, I

2086
02:01:05,440 --> 02:01:07,480
Speaker 1: think I think, Yeah, I think John Johnny Depp is

2087
02:01:07,520 --> 02:01:09,960
Speaker 1: a I mean I was used to say I think

2088
02:01:10,000 --> 02:01:15,480
Speaker 1: it was Queen Victoria because in Colombo, well and that

2089
02:01:16,040 --> 02:01:19,000
Speaker 1: was getting involved. Yeah, well, you knowiced that in Pirates

2090
02:01:19,040 --> 02:01:20,880
Speaker 1: of the Caribbean and all the sequels, he seems to

2091
02:01:20,920 --> 02:01:23,480
Speaker 1: be very proficient with the play and he was addicting.

2092
02:01:23,560 --> 02:01:27,680
Speaker 1: His addicted to absent wasn't as well, Yeah, exactly was.

2093
02:01:27,800 --> 02:01:29,800
Speaker 1: It was board Hales and his brain and made him

2094
02:01:29,800 --> 02:01:32,480
Speaker 1: go insane. And yeah, so there you go, it's Johnny Depp.

2095
02:01:33,640 --> 02:01:37,080
Speaker 1: Johnny Depp done it. In fact, he certainly murdered Abiline's

2096
02:01:37,080 --> 02:01:41,480
Speaker 1: reputation in the film, because Abiline was nothing like Johnny Depp. Yeah,

2097
02:01:41,840 --> 02:01:46,320
Speaker 1: probably it's Abiline is the character who Johnny Depp played

2098
02:01:46,360 --> 02:01:49,120
Speaker 1: in the film. But it's it's very very very very

2099
02:01:49,240 --> 02:01:52,600
Speaker 1: very very very very very very very very loosely based

2100
02:01:52,680 --> 02:01:55,760
Speaker 1: on a BLINEAOK, a little artistic license with that one,

2101
02:01:56,600 --> 02:01:59,360
Speaker 1: but then again, it's a great film. It's it's you know,

2102
02:01:59,440 --> 02:02:02,240
Speaker 1: it's it's really atmospheric. And what they were setting out

2103
02:02:02,280 --> 02:02:04,240
Speaker 1: to do, they weren't setting out to make a documentary.

2104
02:02:04,240 --> 02:02:06,560
Speaker 1: They were setting out to make, you know, a good

2105
02:02:06,600 --> 02:02:09,360
Speaker 1: horror film. And I think they stated there they did

2106
02:02:09,360 --> 02:02:11,720
Speaker 1: a pretty good job indeed, And how can you not

2107
02:02:11,800 --> 02:02:13,640
Speaker 1: make a great horror film when you've got the actual

2108
02:02:13,760 --> 02:02:15,320
Speaker 1: Jack the Rippers starring in it.