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Anyway, you know 26 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 2: him as the best selling author I have a number 27 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: of books for his work on. 28 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: The relationship between addiction and childhood development. Please help me 29 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: welcome doctor Gabor Mate. 30 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: The top regrets of people who die before that time? 31 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 2: You know what it is that they weren't themselves. They 32 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: spent the whole life time to please others. That's the 33 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 2: top regret. 34 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: How do we fix broken people? Before we jump into 35 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this 36 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, 37 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: and more healed. All I want you to do is 38 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's 39 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: incredible to see all your comments and we're just getting started. 40 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: I can't wait to go on this journey with you. 41 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world 42 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: to me. 43 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 2: The number one health and wellness podcast. 44 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: Jay Sheidy, Jay Sheddy see nsy Holy sid Hey everyone, 45 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health and 46 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: wellness podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every 47 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: one of you that keep coming back every week to 48 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: become happier, healthier and more healed. Now, today's guest is 49 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: someone that you absolutely adore, that you love, that I 50 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,959 Speaker 1: admire so deeply. I feel honored whenever I'm in his presence. 51 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan and follower of his work, and 52 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: I would also like to say that we've been developing 53 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: a little bit of a friendship behind the scenes, which 54 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: I'm very grateful for as well. I'm speaking about the 55 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: one and only Gable Matte, who spent twenty years working 56 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: in family practice and palliative care experience and worked for 57 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: over a decade in Vancouver's downtown East Side with patients 58 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: challenged by drug addiction and mental illness. Gabor is the 59 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: best selling author of five books, including the award winning 60 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,239 Speaker 1: in the Realm of Hungry Ghosts Close Encounters with Addiction. 61 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: Gabor is an internationally renowned speaker, highly sought after for 62 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 1: his expertise on addiction, trauma, childhood development, and the relationship 63 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: of stress and illness. And Gabo's latest book, The Myth 64 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: of Normal Trauma, Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture, 65 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: remains a best seller globally, and I highly recommend you 66 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: get a copy if you haven't already. If you have 67 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: a copy, grab one for a friend. And really this 68 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: would be my recommendation. Make it your book club pick, 69 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: for your local book club, for your online book club. 70 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: Make it a book that you discuss and share. Please 71 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: welcome back to on Purpose Gabble. Let's say thank you 72 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: for being here. I am fondly remembering not only the 73 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: last interview we had, but the last time we were 74 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: together in Vancouver, when I saw you just before my 75 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: show and we spent a few moments together, and I 76 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: genuinely look forward to seeing you whenever I can, so 77 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: thank you for doing this well. 78 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: It's such a pleasure. And I remember bicycling down to 79 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 2: your hotel and I wasn't in a great state, and 80 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 2: we talked and that helped the grant me. And then 81 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 2: I think it was my idea that we should meditate together, 82 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 2: and we did and I was just so helpful for me. 83 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 2: So it's just good to sit with you in any capacity. 84 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: Now. Well, I remember I walked away from last time's 85 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: conversation both times, the first time we recorded and second 86 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: time from that. And I always feel you create tiny 87 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: mini shifts in my mindset through very subtle points you make. 88 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: And it takes someone who's deeply studied their subject, not 89 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: just theoretically but practically to be able to do that. 90 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: So thank you. But let's dive straight in. I want 91 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: to ask you this question. I've been I've had the 92 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: burning desire to ask you this question. So I read 93 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: this quote the other day and it says it's by 94 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: Frederick Douglas and the quote goes, it is easier to 95 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: build strong children than fix broken men. And my question was, 96 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: how do we fix broken people? 97 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 2: There's a wonderful song by Leonard Khne called come Heal 98 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: or come Healing, so it begins, or gather up the brokenness, 99 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: bring it to me now, the fagance of those promises 100 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: you never dared to vow. And then he says, at 101 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 2: some point, and here's the answer to your question or 102 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 2: troubledness concealing and undivided love the heart beneath his teaching 103 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 2: to the broken heart above. So this poet prophet, poet 104 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: visionary thing, we have two hearts. There's the brokenness above 105 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 2: and the underdighted love that's below, that's underneath. He's saying, 106 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 2: there's the broken heart above, and then there's a heart 107 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: beneath that teaching the broken heart. So that implied in 108 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 2: that is that nobody's broken. Then underneath the brokenness there's wholeness. 109 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: So and that's not only Leonard Cohen. Any spiritual teachers 110 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 2: you know will tell you the same thing. So it's 111 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 2: not a matter of fixing anything broken, it's it's finding 112 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 2: the wholeness that's underneath the brokenness. Now, Douglas is totally right. 113 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 2: Studies have shown that if you get children who suffer 114 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 2: for the first three years and then things get okay 115 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 2: for them, they do much worse than those children who 116 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: are well treated and have a good life for three 117 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: years and then everything goes to pieces. The latter group 118 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 2: does much better because those words are it says the 119 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: child is the father of the man, so that what 120 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: happens early in life shapes our worldview and our sense 121 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 2: of ourselves. So yes, Douglas is totally right. But ultimately, 122 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: when I look at people, whether they agree with me 123 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: or don't, or whether they are suffering or not, or 124 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: whether they even when they do terrible things, there's a wholeness. 125 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: There's undivided love underneath it isn't there. There's a shore 126 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 2: right now in Los Angeles by somebody who's in a 127 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: death row prison in Texas and his name's Obi, sentenced 128 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: to death and he's on death row, has been for 129 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: the last twenty years a while these appeals wind their 130 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 2: slow way through the courts. If he wins the appeal, 131 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 2: the best think you can hope for is life without parole. 132 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: And he's in love with life. He's had a transformation, 133 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 2: he's dealt with his addiction, he's dealt with his brokenness. 134 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: He learned meditation. He's an artist, and some of his 135 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 2: artists being shown in Los Angeles right now. Unfortunately I 136 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: can't go see it because it's only open certain days 137 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 2: a week and I'm not here. But there's somebody who 138 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 2: came from a totally broken childhood and found a kind 139 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: of presence. If you saw him, you and I could 140 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 2: only envy the kind of presence and at least to 141 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 2: speak for myself, can't speak for the kind of presence 142 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 2: and the kind of engagement life that he's got in 143 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: the death ro a person, Well, if that can be healed, 144 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 2: if that brokenness, the wholeness can be under discovered underneath, 145 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: there's not be broken. 146 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: Very well said, I would agree to. At the core, 147 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: at the root of the essence, none of us are broken. Yeah, 148 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: and our engagement with that which is broken and imperfect 149 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: often rubs off on us. But what would you say 150 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: the most detrimental experiences that people have in those three 151 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: years that end up creating horrific ripple effects long term. 152 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 2: Anything that makes them disconnects from themselves, from their true cels, 153 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 2: from their gut feelings, from their connection to their bodies. 154 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 2: Anything that deprives them of hope. Now, I remember taking 155 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 2: part in a retreat once. It's called an enlightenment intensive, 156 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: where you do intensive spiritual work. I won't go into 157 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 2: the details, but please go into the detail. Well, it's 158 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 2: it's diads and two people at one time, sitting across 159 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 2: from each other in the meditation posture, putting a question 160 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: to one another. First, one person ask the other one 161 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 2: listens and then the search places for four times, and 162 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: then you get a different partner and the question is, 163 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,359 Speaker 2: tell me who you are. The original question comes from 164 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: Ramana Maharshi, who's work, I'm sure you know, one of 165 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 2: these Indian Rishis and gurus, who just asked everybody, tell 166 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 2: me who you are. And the idea is that by 167 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 2: emptying your mind and saying whatever is in your head, 168 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 2: clearing out the mental space, the direct experience of who 169 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: you are will come to you, a direct experience, not 170 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 2: a thought, not an emotion, but a direct experience. No, 171 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: I never had the direct experience, and I was embittered 172 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: at the end, and that the very last diad person 173 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: said tell me who you are? And I just started 174 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 2: shaking and the whole body was tinging, And instead of 175 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 2: paying attention to that, I plunged into bitterness, and I said, 176 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: is it my fault? They turned off the light in me. 177 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 2: They killed the light in me so early, so I 178 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 2: truly believed that the light in me had been killed 179 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 2: by what had happened to me as an infant. And 180 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 2: for much of my life even I had to become 181 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 2: a healer. And even after I became a healer that 182 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 2: was respected by so many people. I thought I could 183 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 2: help heal everybody else, but I can't be healed myself. 184 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 2: So to go back to your question, whatever early experience 185 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 2: kills you of faith in your own possibilities, that's what's 186 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 2: so damaging. And for that, it could be evidence or 187 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 2: experiences of severe abuse. It could also be a very 188 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: sensitive child who the world doesn't see for who they are, 189 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: who the world doesn't permit to express themselves, so they 190 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 2: shut off from themselves, you know, to be accepted by 191 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: the world. So any early experience that deprives you of yourself, 192 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 2: and that happens to a lot of us. So trauma 193 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 2: is a huge specter. But anything that breaks your connection 194 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 2: to yourself and you and your genuine, not your false 195 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 2: egoic belief in yourself, but your genuine belief in your wholeness, 196 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 2: that'll do it, and that happens to a lot of us. 197 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: I've always personally experienced it as the volume of my 198 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: inner voice. Yes, so I found that at different points 199 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: in my life my inner voice was extremely loud and clear, 200 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 1: and not only could I hear it clearly, but the 201 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: direction was clear. And then I've had moments in my 202 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: life where as you're referencing disconnected from yourself. Yeah, that 203 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: voice is extremely quiet, maybe even non existent, or it's 204 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: screaming out for help. 205 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: It's I mean, the voice of your and yourself is 206 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 2: very quiet, correct, it can. Well, the Bible talks about 207 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: the small still voice. They actually call it that, a 208 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 2: small still voice, and it really takes attention to notice 209 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 2: it because there's so much noise in the world, and 210 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 2: so much noise in her heads, and there's all these 211 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 2: other voices that are much louder, you know. The singer 212 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 2: Sheryl Crowe, she had breast cancer and she said afterwards, 213 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 2: and this could be and I quote this in The 214 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 2: Metal Normal and it could be right out of my 215 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 2: own work. But she doesn't know about me. She just 216 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 2: came to this awareness because the disease start or something. 217 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 2: And she said that she always used to be serving 218 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 2: other people and trying to meet other people's emotional needs, 219 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 2: and the breast cancer. Now she's actually listening to herself. 220 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 2: And she says, there used to be these loud voices 221 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 2: inside myself telling me that whatever I did wasn't right enough. 222 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 2: She says, now I've still those voices, you know. So 223 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 2: on the one hand, the voices of self disregard and 224 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: self loathing or self seduction are very loud, and that 225 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: two voice, for most of us is just so quiet, 226 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: so it takes a lot of attention to notice it. 227 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: A lot of what you're saying today, we experience it 228 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: as this idea of people pleasing, shape shifting, mediating, wanting 229 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: to make peace, often in our families, in our friend circle, 230 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: all of which are can be good, noble things, but 231 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: often we find ourselves disconnected from ourselves trying to play 232 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: these different roles. Not only does that seem to be 233 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: stemming from a form of trauma of being disconnected from 234 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: yourself early on, what steps can one take to regain 235 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: one's connection with oneself so that we're not running around 236 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: shape shifting people pleasing, but at the same time have 237 00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: genuine connections with others. 238 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 2: In the book, we talk about the tension between authenticity 239 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: and attachment, and authenticity being connected to our true selves, 240 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: our God feelings, which is necessary. Nature gave us a 241 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 2: good feelings for good reason and give us the emotions 242 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: for a good reason. Attachment is a need to belong, 243 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 2: and if it can be authentic and belong, that's ideal. 244 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 2: So if if you can find relationships. I mean, you 245 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 2: can be our true selves and be accepted and loved. 246 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: That's ideal, but a lot of our families of origin 247 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 2: and our parents just couldn't give that to us. They 248 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: had their own limitations. They couldn't see us, so they 249 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 2: don't traumise like I did as a parent. And so 250 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: kids then get the message that you can be yourself 251 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 2: or you can be accepted, but not both at the 252 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 2: same time. At which point, for sure, survival stay, for sure, 253 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 2: survival's sake, we go with, well, whatever we need to 254 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 2: do to get accepted, and then we get that message 255 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 2: reinforced in school and on the playground and with our 256 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: pa years and at our work, and at some point 257 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 2: start wondering, who the heck are we anyway? And whose 258 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: life am I leading? Anyway? Well, how to get back 259 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: to it? Here's the question prior to your awakening, and 260 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 2: I'm sure that for your awakening was probably both a 261 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 2: series of unique events, but also it was a long 262 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 2: term process. For me, it was mostly process rather than 263 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: distinct experiences. But say, prior to awakening, did you sometimes 264 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: know that you're not being authentic? Because I sure did. 265 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 2: I didn't know why I was choosing not to be authentic. 266 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 2: If I wasn't even choosing it, I just wasn't. But 267 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 2: something you meannew Well, here's the question. Who inside us 268 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: knows only that authentic self that's always there. And so 269 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 2: I say to people, don't try and look for the 270 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 2: authentic self. Just notice when you're not authentic. Just notice 271 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 2: when you're not saying no, when there's a note that 272 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 2: wants to be said. Just see what you're not saying yes, 273 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 2: but there's a yes that wants to be said inside you. 274 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 2: Notice the impact on you when you don't assert your 275 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 2: true self. How do you feel after its resentful or 276 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: shamed or tired or whatever. So notice the difficulty being 277 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 2: authentic and ask yourself, well, what is the belief that 278 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 2: I'm caring that? If I'm authentic, then what? So in 279 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: other words, all that noticing, what does that do? Who's 280 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 2: the one that's noticing it is the authentic self. So 281 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 2: just by asking those questions, you're strengthening, you're empowering that 282 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 2: authentic self. And just going back to that, the heart 283 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 2: underneath is teaching booken art. Above all that wholeness is 284 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 2: teaching the disconnection. It's always there. 285 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: I find that in between those two hearts and in 286 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: between those two layers, there's almost a layer of guilt 287 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 1: and shame. So when we go against our authentic self, 288 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: we do it because we're scared of whether we feel 289 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: guilty or we may feel shame or fear. And if 290 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: we act authentically, we then sometimes feel guilt for acting 291 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: that way because of how it impacts others, or shame 292 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: and fear. So walk me through the construction of fear 293 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: and guilt and shame, which seemed to be such like 294 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: if you thought about the emotions we all experience most 295 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: on a daily basis, I mean, let me ask you that, actually, 296 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: what do you think? What are the emotions that you 297 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: believe people are experiencing most often, most repetitively on a 298 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: daily base says I. 299 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 2: Was going to give you an easy answer to the 300 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 2: shame guild fair question, but then you threw a curveball. 301 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: Sorry I went off. I following I'm following my authentic voice. 302 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 2: No, I love I love curveballs. I just have to 303 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 2: think about it. So what are the emotions people experience? 304 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 2: My stuff? And I think anger, rage, and resentment. I 305 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 2: think there's a lot more of that than we acknowledged, 306 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 2: not often unacknowledged, experienced but not acknowledged for fear of consequences. 307 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,959 Speaker 2: I think also love, that'd be also enough often afraid 308 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 2: to acknowledge because it's so vulnerable. And we might see, 309 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 2: if I want you to love me, but I'm afraid 310 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 2: to be vulnerable, then I may try to impress you, 311 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,959 Speaker 2: which may be the closest thing I can get, so 312 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 2: that you'll pay attention to me, you know, so that 313 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 2: emotions shame, I think is very frequent for a lot 314 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 2: of people. That has to do with trauma more than 315 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 2: anything else. Fear is something that people experience a lot, 316 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 2: much more than they can admit to themselves. Joy people 317 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 2: are not so afraid of it. Well you know what 318 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 2: that might be. Joy has been very difficult for me 319 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 2: in my life, and I think some point of actually 320 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 2: some part of me used to say, what right do 321 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:25,959 Speaker 2: I have to feel joy when there's so much suffering 322 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: in the world. Now that's logically a good question, but 323 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 2: it's a nonsensical question why Because there is a lot 324 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 2: of suffering in the world and there's a lot of 325 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 2: joy in the world, and the one doesn't negate the other. 326 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 2: So for me it was like, what right do I 327 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 2: have to experience joy when my grandparents died in ashoals. 328 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 2: I quote this in the Myth of Normal. My friend 329 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 2: and colleague and teacher Besil Vanderkolck, psychiatrist who wrote the 330 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 2: book The Body Keeps the Score. He said to me, 331 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 2: once go or you don't have to drag our shirts 332 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 2: around with you all the time, which means that you 333 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 2: don't have to allow not to forget about our shirts, 334 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 2: but not to let that control your consciousness, which means 335 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 2: you do have the right to feel joy. You do 336 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 2: have the right to be happy even as the world suffers, 337 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 2: not because the world suffers, and not ignoring the suffering 338 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 2: the world. But there's no contradiction. 339 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: Let's dive into some of those emotions because and I 340 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: love how they were easy answers for you and then 341 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: the curve world. But I think, as you said, fear 342 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: is a repetitive daily emotion thought for so many people, 343 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: a lack of safety emotionally, mentally, physically, on so many levels, 344 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: we feel unsafe. Yeah, how does one process and heal 345 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: through and with fear? Because it seems to be so consistent. 346 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 2: The way that fear shows up in most people's lives 347 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 2: is in the form of anxiety. See, we are wired 348 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 2: for fear. There's a great nurse psychologist died a few 349 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 2: years ago before his time, doctor Panksep, and he identified 350 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: all these emotional circuits that we share with other mammals, 351 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 2: and fear was one of them. We have a circuity 352 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 2: for fear, a good thing. We're not afraid we die 353 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 2: are there in nature, you know. But that can become anxiety. 354 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 2: So let me tell you a story. I want to 355 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: show you. There's bracelet that I'm arning. 356 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: It's beautiful. 357 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 2: It is beautiful, and I never thought at everybody wearing 358 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: a bracelet, but I was given this just shortly after 359 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 2: the time that I met you. And this comes from 360 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 2: a place called Haida Guai and either Guay's Islands in 361 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 2: northern British Columbia where I live. There used to be 362 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: known as well. They used to be known as Hideaguai 363 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 2: them at the British colonization they became known as the 364 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 2: Queen Charlotte Islands. That's really fun because I was speaking 365 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 2: in London once actually a couple of months ago, to 366 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 2: an audience of twenty one hundred Britishers, and I said, 367 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: does anybody in this audience know who the hell Queen 368 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: Charlotte was. Nobody knew. Apparently she was some German princess 369 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 2: who married King George the Matt King George who was 370 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 2: King of England when America became independent anyway, so the 371 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 2: British came, they named it Queen Charlotte Islands. All of 372 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 2: a sudden, these indigenous people, whose ancestors have been living 373 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: there for something like thirteen thousand years, all of a 374 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 2: sudden they were living on not on high to Go anymore, 375 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 2: which means land of the people, but they were living 376 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 2: in Queen Charlotteland. So I was giving a trauma workshop 377 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: there for hider people. That's when they gave me this bracelet. 378 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: And the meaning of the carvings means these words matter. 379 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 2: At the end of two days, almost at the very 380 00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 2: end of the trauma workshop for the height of people, 381 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 2: a woman in her seventies at least comes up and 382 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,719 Speaker 2: she said, I used to speak perfect Haida until I 383 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 2: was five years old, and then I forgot my language. 384 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 2: And even when I've gone back to school as an 385 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 2: adult to learn my native language, the words don't stick 386 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 2: in my brain. And I said, what happened to you, Well, 387 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 2: what happened to her. She went to the residential school. 388 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 2: Residential schools over the Indiandous kids were forced to go 389 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 2: run by the churches mostly, and she dared speak her 390 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: native language, and the teacher took a stick and beat 391 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 2: her mercilessly in her body and her head and her limbs. Oh, 392 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 2: native kids. In my own lifetime is when I was 393 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 2: a teenager in British Columbia, a four year old Indian 394 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 2: they're not Indian, Indigenous Canadian, a First Nation kid spoke 395 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 2: their own language. That have a pin stuck in her tongue, 396 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 2: so they literally as I said to her, look, you're 397 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 2: losing your language. Was your organism protecting you. It was 398 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 2: your fear system telling you that if you do that again, 399 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 2: you know you might not survive. Because she hated herself 400 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 2: for it. She hated herself, hate herself for the anxiety. 401 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 2: She hated herself because I was so passive, she said. 402 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 2: I said that passivity was your organism's only way to 403 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,479 Speaker 2: protect you, because had you fought back, or had you 404 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 2: asserted your right to speak your language, much worse would 405 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 2: happened to you. So that fear protected her. But it 406 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 2: translates into anxiety where it's no longer fear of a 407 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: specific thing, it's just fear of the world. Now the 408 00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 2: rate of anxiety, so we have a system for fear. 409 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 2: And the greatest danger to a young child is the 410 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,360 Speaker 2: loss of relationship, because without relationship can't survive. I mean, 411 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 2: we're protected, we're defenseless, we're vulnerable, we'll helpless. So the 412 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 2: loss of protective adults is the biggest fear that the 413 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 2: child has. In this society, a lot of parents can't 414 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 2: be there for their kids the way they need to be, 415 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 2: the way they want to be because of the stresses economic, social, racial, 416 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 2: pot goal, whatever they're going through, just the nature of 417 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 2: the disconnected culture that we live in. Parents are not 418 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 2: there for the kids the way the children need to be. 419 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 2: The fear becomes chronic anxiety that we're never safe, and 420 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,959 Speaker 2: now that becomes part of our sense of self. So 421 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 2: what you say, but this lack of emotional safety, what 422 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 2: it actually is is that early childhood fear is when 423 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 2: the child is afraid, they will ask for help, but 424 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 2: when repeatedly the help is not available and the adults 425 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: don't come because they're too busy to stress to traumatize, 426 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 2: to be occupied, to downtrodden, or too propagandized by parenting 427 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 2: experts to ignore their kids' cries. That ty gets the 428 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 2: message that there's no safety, So that original fear that's 429 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 2: meant to result in a cry for help not becomes 430 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 2: chronic anxiety. So fear not dealt with gets ingrained as anxiety. 431 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: It's no longer going but anything specific, it's just being 432 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 2: in the world is a source of fear, but you 433 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:36,959 Speaker 2: shouldn't be. 434 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: It almost feels like, as you were saying, that what 435 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: should result in a cry for help externally, yeah, becomes 436 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: a perpetual cry internally without a feeling of being able 437 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: to help yourself exactly. 438 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 2: You know that Beatles song help Help, I need somebody, 439 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 2: not just anybody, and John Nnen sings, and he was 440 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 2: a very traumatized child, as you know, whose father left 441 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 2: him when he was born, and whose mother abandoned him 442 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 2: a few years later. And then he sings in his song, 443 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 2: when I was younger, so much younger than today, I 444 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 2: never needed anybody's helping anyway. But now those days are gone. 445 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 2: I'm not so self assured. So I opened the door, 446 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: you know, please help me. No that's not the way 447 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,959 Speaker 2: it was. When he was younger, so much younger than today. 448 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 2: He needed everybody's help in every way, but because the 449 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 2: help wasn't available, he had to shut himself down and 450 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: make himself so like a self created, self sufficient person. 451 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 2: Only later on as they realized, you know what, I 452 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 2: actually do need help. But he was never that person 453 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 2: who didn't need He just believed they didn't need help. 454 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 2: Why did believe that as an adaptation because the help 455 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 2: wasn't there. So so many of us. One of the 456 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 2: biggest things that people are faith to do is to 457 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 2: ask for help when I get workshops, and I myself 458 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 2: as my automatic reaction when somebody offers help, Oh no, 459 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 2: it's okay, I'm fine, even though the help would be 460 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 2: very welcome. 461 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: You know, how do you find that? Because I feel 462 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: so many people today have someone in their life who's 463 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: closed off from help. It might be a partner, it 464 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: might be a child, it might be a parent. We 465 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: all have someone in our life who, in our limited 466 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: capacity but a little bit of awakening, we can notice 467 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: that someone is really closed and won't receive help. How 468 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: do you help someone who is rejecting help or not 469 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: accepting that they may need it because of the position 470 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: they've experienced based on what you just said. 471 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 2: I myself used to believe I was one of these people. 472 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 2: I actually used to believe. Can you believe this? I 473 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 2: used to believe that every bils could be stressed, but 474 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 2: I couldn't be. I used to feel like that too, 475 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 2: that I can help. I can help everybody, but I 476 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 2: don't need help myself, you know. Yeah, So how do 477 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 2: you help something that you help them by accepting them 478 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 2: That's what it is for them right now, and not 479 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 2: trying to push your help on them, because when you 480 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 2: try and push up, you're just going to get resistance. 481 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 2: So you if you can handle it, you can be 482 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 2: around them and be open, but not insist or try 483 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 2: and improve to them that they need help. Life will 484 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 2: teach them. When I meditate these days, I do the 485 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 2: Compassion meditation, which says, you know that may I face 486 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 2: and overcome all of life's inevitable setbacks and challenges and 487 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 2: failures with patients understanding strength and determination, and may I 488 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 2: rise above them with compassion and morality and integrity and 489 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 2: wisdom and mindfulness. If we can stare on people compassionately 490 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 2: without trying to prove to them that they need something 491 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 2: that they don't believe they need. Then at some point 492 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 2: life will being a challenge that may prove to them that, yeah, 493 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 2: they need help. And if you're still around open, then 494 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 2: they'll reach out to you if you try and convince them, 495 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 2: bring them over, prove it to them, force it on them. 496 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 2: And I believe I've done that. I've done it with 497 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 2: my own family, I've done it with others. You just 498 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 2: invade resistance. So the best way to help people is 499 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 2: not to help unless the help is invited. 500 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: And that's almost what most of us don't want to 501 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: hear because we want to again, going back to our 502 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: earlier point, we want to fix and solve and make 503 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: everything nice and perfect right now. Yeah, And I guess 504 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: that is also a form of trauma. There's something there 505 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: as to why we want that. 506 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 2: And when I write about people who are prone for 507 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 2: chronic illness, it's often people like autoimmune disease, for example. 508 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 2: It's often and this is not just finding. Other researchers 509 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 2: have found this as well, that there are people who 510 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 2: tend to ignore their own emotional needs and are compulsively 511 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 2: consumed with the emotional needs of others. And they tend 512 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,719 Speaker 2: to believe that in a metanormal I quote an obituary 513 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: and obituaries are really interesting to me because they often 514 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 2: highlight as laudable qualities the very things that I think 515 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 2: contributed to a person's death. 516 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: Let's talk about. 517 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a book written by an Australian nurse 518 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 2: twelve years ago now called The Top Five Regrets of 519 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 2: Dying People. And she, like I used to work in 520 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 2: pallid of care, working with dying people, as you mentioned 521 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 2: in the introduction, and for seven years I was the 522 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 2: medical coordinator of Big palliad of Care and the Dying 523 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 2: People at Vancouver Hospital. And this nurse, also a poet 524 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 2: of care health worker, wrote book the Top five Regret, 525 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 2: the top regrets of people who died before that time. 526 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 2: You know what it is that they weren't themselves, That 527 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 2: they spent a whole life trying to please others. That's 528 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 2: the top regret. Now, this this obituary, you have to 529 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 2: believe that I'm not making us up. This is a 530 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 2: physician in Canada with that age seventy two of cancer, 531 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 2: and the obituary says Sydney and his mother had an 532 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 2: incredibly special relationship a bomb that was apparent in all 533 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 2: aspects of their lives until her death. As a married 534 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 2: man with young children, Sydney would have dinner with his 535 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 2: parents every day. Then he would go home as his wife, 536 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: Roslyn and their three children waited for him with another, 537 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 2: yet another dinner to eat and to enjoy. Not wanting 538 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 2: to disappoint either woman in his life, Sydney kept eating 539 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 2: two dinners a day for years until gradual Waitkane began 540 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 2: to raise suspicions. This man suffered from two fatal beliefs. 541 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 2: And when I say fatal, I mean fatal. One is 542 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 2: that he was responsible for other people feel and the 543 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 2: other is that he was never disappointing anybody. Now, so 544 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 2: many of us go through life like that. You know, no, actually, 545 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 2: I'm not responsible for how you feel. I'm responsible for 546 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 2: how I act, for how I speak, what I do, 547 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 2: and what I say. I'm not responsible for how you feel. 548 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 2: In response, when you were in Vancouver and you contacted me, 549 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 2: and if I hadn't feel like seeing you, but I 550 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 2: hadn't slept all night, say because I was up with 551 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 2: some other duty or looking after somebody, and if I 552 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 2: had said yes and still come, make you for coffee 553 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 2: because I had fear of disappointing you, and because I 554 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 2: didn't want you to feel disappointed. What would that have 555 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 2: meant for me? It would have meant for me more fatigue, 556 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 2: and probably I would have resented the hell out of you, 557 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 2: even though I was pretending to be that. You know, 558 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 2: you know, thank God and you. On the other hand, 559 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 2: if I said no, if I was authentic and I said, look, Jerry, 560 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm so glad you're in town, but I 561 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 2: was up all night, I just you know, now, if 562 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 2: he had felt hurt and perceived yourself as rejected by me, 563 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 2: that's not on me. That's your interpretation of my behavior. 564 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 2: Nothing do with me. I just said what was true 565 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 2: for me. So but that fear of disappointment. Had I 566 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 2: been afraid to disappoint you because I don't want to 567 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 2: lose your friendship, and I don't want to lose your friendship. 568 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 2: But if I believe that, if I'm authentic, I'm going 569 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 2: to lose Jay's friendship. That's going to keep me in authentic. 570 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 2: And you never know me, and even when you like me, 571 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 2: there's still going to be a fear in me. What 572 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 2: if he really knew me, you know, so it doesn't 573 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 2: even work. But we're we're so afraid of disappointing others. 574 00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: And then one day I may feel we have an 575 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: authentic friendship because I can notice that you're not being 576 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,879 Speaker 1: fully yourself. Yeah, and then then I can even feel 577 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: that way you can let me down even by trying 578 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 1: to be everything I wanted you to be. That's what 579 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: I find so fascinating in life, is that you can 580 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: let someone down even after becoming everything you thought they 581 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: wanted you to be. 582 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 2: Well, exactly, Well, go back to the example of coffee. 583 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 2: If I said to you, Jay, I'm sorry I can't 584 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 2: do today, which honors you more. If I believe that 585 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 2: you're so we can vulnerable that you can't handle or no, 586 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 2: or if I honor you by telling you the truth, 587 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 2: which shows you more respect. 588 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: Definitely there, so that. 589 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 2: I can be everything you want to be and still 590 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 2: not honor you. 591 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: Yes, Yeah, it's fascinating how we can be so opposite 592 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: in our perceptions and viewpoints. Yeah, And a big part 593 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: of that comes also. We talked about fear, but I 594 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about guilt because. 595 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,439 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, guilt, guilt. We don't want to say about guilt. 596 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: No, well, I want to hear from you about guilt. 597 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: But when I think of guilt, I think it's such 598 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: a strong driver for so many actions in the world today. 599 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: It is we're guilty of something in the past, and 600 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: therefore we do something strange in the future of the 601 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: present that we wouldn't have done. We feel guilty right now, 602 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: and that makes us say something that we don't mean, 603 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: or something that we exactly. How do we untrap ourselves 604 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: from the trappings of guilt? 605 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 2: Great, Let me tell you a story so you know. 606 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 2: In the Bible, the Naild Testament, Moses is a Hebrew 607 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 2: boy born at a time when the Pharaohs soothsayers declare 608 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 2: that some Hebrew male born or his time will rise 609 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 2: up and challenge the pharaoh. So they decide to kill 610 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 2: all the Hebrew newborns by throwing him into the Nile River. 611 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 2: But Moses's mother rather than throws the boy into the river, 612 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,399 Speaker 2: but in a ricker basket, and so Moses flows down 613 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 2: the river and he gets plucked out of the water 614 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 2: by the pharaoh's daughter, who adopts him. So this Hebrew 615 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 2: infant is adopted into the royal court feel like a 616 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 2: prince that's why Walt Disney could make a film called 617 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 2: Prince of Egypt. You know, all this happened just so 618 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 2: Walt Disney could make a film. In any case, there's 619 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 2: an extra biblical legend. It's not in the Bible, but 620 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,360 Speaker 2: it's an ancient legend. You think, what the heck is 621 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:53,959 Speaker 2: this guy talking about? It just asked them about guilt 622 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 2: and he's talking about No. 623 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: I love this. This is my favorite type of ansense, 624 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: is when I'm curious and I'm following because I don't 625 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:00,800 Speaker 1: know where. 626 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 2: You're going, Okay, but believe It'm not going to come 627 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 2: back to believe. 628 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: I believe, I trust you. 629 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 2: So the legend is that Moses is a toddler and 630 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:13,720 Speaker 2: the pair soothsayers divine that he might be a danger, 631 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 2: which eventually he proves to be, so they decide to 632 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 2: put him to a test. They put in front of 633 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 2: him too sparkling objects. I don't know if you remember, but 634 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 2: in the Bible, Moses is the speech impediment and it's 635 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,439 Speaker 2: his brother Aaron who has to do the speaking for him. 636 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 2: How does he get the speech impediment? Well, the pharaoh 637 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,840 Speaker 2: soothsayers say, well, this point needs to be examined. And 638 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 2: they decide to put him to a test, and they 639 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 2: put in front of him two sparkling objects. One of 640 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 2: them is a royal diamond of Egypt and the other is 641 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 2: a sparkling member of glowing member of coal. Now, if 642 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 2: Moses reaches for the royal diamond, it means he's got 643 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,839 Speaker 2: oil ambition and he needs to be killed. So there 644 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 2: is this little toddler delightedly looking at these two scintillating objects, 645 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 2: and his hand starts moving towards the diamond, at which point, 646 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 2: standing behind him is Gabrielle. Gabrielle, which is the Hebrew 647 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,840 Speaker 2: version of my name Gabor, by the way, and grabs 648 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 2: his hand and takes it away from the diamond and 649 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 2: puts it to the coal. Now, Moses, finishing the motion 650 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 2: that kids will do, picks up the coal, puts it 651 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 2: to his mouth and burns his lips. And that's how 652 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 2: he develops suspicion impediment. Now here's my question to you, 653 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 2: is the angel Moses's friend or enemy? 654 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,280 Speaker 1: He's trying to be a friend, but. 655 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 2: But he heard him had to hurt him to save 656 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 2: his life. Right, he's a friend guilt is that kind 657 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 2: of a friend? Okay, Guilt comes on in early childhood, 658 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,240 Speaker 2: not because you did anything wrong, but because your sense 659 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 2: that whatever you did displeased your parents and you can't 660 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 2: afford to do that. So there needs to be an 661 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 2: internal mechanism that keeps you close to your parents. That says, 662 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,720 Speaker 2: for example, if you're authentic and you're sure your anger, 663 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 2: you won't be accepted. The better will be an internal 664 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 2: mechanism to keep you on track. So guilt comes along 665 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,319 Speaker 2: as this friend that says, no, take your hand away 666 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 2: from where you want to put it. You have to 667 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:29,760 Speaker 2: stifle your real desires. So guild comes along to maintain 668 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 2: a relationship, not because you did anything wrong, because the 669 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:34,439 Speaker 2: two year old, three year old they can't do anything 670 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,919 Speaker 2: wrong by definition. That may those things that are not good, 671 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 2: and they need to be taught not to do it. 672 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 2: But it's not wrong. There's no guilt there. There's no 673 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to do something evil here, you know. So 674 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 2: guilt is totally not appropriate, and there's ways of teaching 675 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 2: children without guilt. But guilt comes along to keep you 676 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 2: in mind. Now is that you're friend or your enemy. 677 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 2: It's your friend, but it's hurting you. The problem with 678 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:08,959 Speaker 2: these early friends and I call them sometime. People don't 679 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 2: like this word, but I say call them stupid friends. 680 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 2: The stupid that comes in the fact they don't realize 681 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 2: that you're an adult. You can make your own decisions 682 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 2: now and look after yourself. You don't need to be 683 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 2: controlled by their advice that was meant for a two 684 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 2: year old. So that's where they they're just not educable. 685 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 2: So when I say to people these days now, most 686 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 2: people who feel guilty when they act a little bit 687 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 2: on their own behalf. I say to them, for God's sakes, 688 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 2: have a party. Celebrate I've done something for myself. You 689 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 2: call your friends, you know, have a celebration that you 690 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 2: were so quote unquote selfish, Like Sheryl Crow said, all 691 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 2: these voices that always told her that she has to 692 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,400 Speaker 2: ignore herself and serve others. Now she doesn't listen to 693 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 2: them anymore. That's the guilt. So you know, recognize the 694 00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 2: guilt and say hello to it, thank it. Now. Is 695 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 2: there such a thing as health remorse? Yeah. If I 696 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,719 Speaker 2: promise to meet you for coffee and I don't show 697 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 2: up because I find something more pleasurable to do, I 698 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 2: should feel some remorse. So remorse is about specific that's 699 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 2: healthy remorse. You know, if I break my word, if 700 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:25,280 Speaker 2: I hurt somebody where I you know, I should feel remorse. 701 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,719 Speaker 2: But that's not a long term thing. It's not the 702 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 2: chronic guilt that you're talking about. That's not something what 703 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 2: would happened a long time ago and now it limits 704 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,919 Speaker 2: me or controls me. It's a healthy remorse for some 705 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,399 Speaker 2: specific thing that's different from guilt. Guilt is this old 706 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,320 Speaker 2: friend that's along outlived their usefulness. 707 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 1: And the challenge is that we still treat it like 708 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:54,720 Speaker 1: a today friend exactly. It's almost like we're so scared 709 00:43:54,800 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: of breaking that dependence as well. We thinking, well, I 710 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,800 Speaker 1: feel guilty that I'm not around, so I'll stay around 711 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 1: this individual, this group of people, whatever it may be. 712 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,800 Speaker 1: But there's a part of me that wants to depend 713 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 1: on them as well, and I don't want to break 714 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: free completely as well, because I don't even know what 715 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 1: that looks like. Like you're saying, like, as an adult, 716 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 1: you can take care of yourself, you can walk your 717 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: own path, but you're actually scared of doing that, and 718 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 1: so you accept the pain of guilt because it allows 719 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: for dependence. 720 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 2: Well, that's a good point that I often say to 721 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 2: people you're going to have pain one way to the other. Yes, 722 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 2: which pain would you like? Because sometimes in life there's 723 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,880 Speaker 2: no pain for your options. You can have the pain 724 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 2: of suppressing yourself for the sake of being accepted, or 725 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 2: you can have the pain sometimes of being yourself and 726 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 2: not being accepted. You can have pain one way the other. 727 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 2: Now I have my own bias that the pain of 728 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 2: not being ourselves ultimately it is about far the greater 729 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,960 Speaker 2: and the more chronic pain, and that the pain, the 730 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:10,480 Speaker 2: short term pain of being ourselves brings liberation and genuine independence, 731 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,319 Speaker 2: which means I can have genuinely independent the relationships with 732 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,960 Speaker 2: other people who are willing to accept me as independent. 733 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 1: You know. 734 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 2: But in the short term, which pain do you want? 735 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 2: There's no pain for you options. 736 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. That you reminded me of this beautiful 737 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 1: idea that Tikna Han shares, that there's familiar pain and 738 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,759 Speaker 1: unfamiliar pain, and these are our two choices and the challenges. 739 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,759 Speaker 1: We're so scared of unfamiliar pain that we would rather 740 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,840 Speaker 1: choose familiar pain and go through the same pain because 741 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: we know how it's going to feel exactly, and we think, 742 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,000 Speaker 1: or at least I'm aware at least I am conscious 743 00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,319 Speaker 1: of how bad it can get exactly. But hearing you 744 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:04,760 Speaker 1: speak being independent or being dependent both as pain, Yeah, 745 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:10,319 Speaker 1: but the pain of dependence far out weighs the pain 746 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 1: of independence. 747 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,680 Speaker 2: Well, just put a bit of a nuance in there, ultimately, 748 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,399 Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, technadon also talk about inter being. 749 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 2: How we all in there are so in a certain 750 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,800 Speaker 2: sense we do depend on each other, you know, and 751 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 2: that's okay. The question is to be dependent in each 752 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:32,080 Speaker 2: other authentically or inauthentically. The fact that I'm independent doesn't 753 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:33,800 Speaker 2: mean that I'm not going to reach out for help 754 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,000 Speaker 2: or that I won't offer it, But it does mean 755 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 2: that I will be honest with you, and I won't 756 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:44,840 Speaker 2: pretend to be somebody else that I'm not so that 757 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:49,400 Speaker 2: you will accept me. You know. So there's anything interesting 758 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 2: word difference between two phrases that sound very familiar. One 759 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:59,840 Speaker 2: it's called individualism, and it's it's called individuation. Now, rugget. 760 00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 2: In individualisms, I don't need anybody, and you know, me 761 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:07,320 Speaker 2: against the world. And this is the North American capitalist ideal, 762 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 2: you know. Well, human beings never would have evolved. It 763 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:15,719 Speaker 2: would been those rugged individualists, the rugged individus wouldn't last 764 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:22,600 Speaker 2: more than one generation. But individuated means that we can 765 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 2: be ourselves, truly ourselves in genuine relationship with others, not 766 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:35,280 Speaker 2: rugged individualists. I mean, the most boring people are rugged 767 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 2: individualists because they all look the same, you know. So 768 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:45,719 Speaker 2: you can be individuated and be truly yourself and still 769 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 2: belong and still vulnerably desire human contact, you know. 770 00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can agree more. I think there's a lot 771 00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,320 Speaker 1: of rhetoric around we don't care what anyone else thinks 772 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter, and you just do your own thing. 773 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:07,760 Speaker 1: And it's almost that's almost a bitter response as well, 774 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 1: because we do have to care what people think. If 775 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,560 Speaker 1: we lived in a world where you didn't care what 776 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,719 Speaker 1: anyone thought, yeah, it wouldn't be that healthy because we 777 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,960 Speaker 1: would do all sorts of obscene, horrific things. 778 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:21,160 Speaker 2: I trace it differently. 779 00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:22,480 Speaker 1: I'm intrigued, Yeah, I'm intrigued. 780 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't care what anybody thinks, but I do 781 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,400 Speaker 2: care what I do and how it affects other people, 782 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:34,680 Speaker 2: you know. So there's another spiritual teacher, Gunner Rotana. He 783 00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,520 Speaker 2: wrote a book called Mindfulness in Plain English, which I've 784 00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 2: just been working through recently, and he's talking about a 785 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,279 Speaker 2: higher morality that comes from being true to yourself as 786 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,680 Speaker 2: any touch and he says, well, you don't need rules 787 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,960 Speaker 2: anymore because it's like Saint Augustine said, love and do 788 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 2: it You're will. So if you actually love the world, 789 00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,439 Speaker 2: you don't have to give yourself rules because that love 790 00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:03,279 Speaker 2: will dictate it how you like towards other people, I 791 00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,560 Speaker 2: can't worry about what other people think. Look, if I 792 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,319 Speaker 2: worry about other people think, I would not have written 793 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,320 Speaker 2: any of my books because each of my books challenged 794 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:15,440 Speaker 2: the reigning orthodoxy, insane medicine, you know, or whether it's 795 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,560 Speaker 2: or under tention, devastated, or stress and disease or addictions. 796 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,399 Speaker 2: And if I'm write a book, I'm saying something that 797 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,240 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that I invented it, but that I've 798 00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 2: come to understand and fervently believe and want to communicate. 799 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,200 Speaker 2: But I can't worry about what other people think. Or 800 00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,239 Speaker 2: when I make a political statement, I'm responsible for what 801 00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:36,920 Speaker 2: I say, how I say it, but not what other 802 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,080 Speaker 2: people think about it. But that doesn't mean that I 803 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:45,600 Speaker 2: ignore other people's experience. So as long as my intention 804 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,759 Speaker 2: is purely to speak a truth, and I do so 805 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,799 Speaker 2: with integrity. I can't worry about what other people think. 806 00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:55,759 Speaker 2: I can't. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go 807 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,239 Speaker 2: around just doing terrible things because I don't care what 808 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,759 Speaker 2: you think as long as I convinced that what I do. 809 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,320 Speaker 2: If I've done that kind of inventory, and I haven't always, 810 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,279 Speaker 2: but if I do an inventory, But well, what is 811 00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:12,280 Speaker 2: my intention here? 812 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:16,720 Speaker 1: Is there a hierarchy of pain or hierarchy of trauma? 813 00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:18,240 Speaker 2: What do you mean bierarchy? 814 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 1: I feel like people feel like, well, this trauma is 815 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:23,520 Speaker 1: worse than this trauma, and this trauma is better than 816 00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,680 Speaker 1: this one. We often hear about that as a conversation. 817 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 1: Is that accurate? 818 00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:33,520 Speaker 2: So one could say so because if you look at 819 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:37,440 Speaker 2: a child who says sexually abused as opposed to a 820 00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:44,200 Speaker 2: child whose parents just can't honor and accept and validate 821 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:48,200 Speaker 2: their emotions, Well, my god, you're talking about two different 822 00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 2: set of experiences, so that there's certainly horrific things happen 823 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,960 Speaker 2: to some people to wound them, and other people suffer 824 00:50:55,000 --> 00:51:02,200 Speaker 2: wounds in a very different way. But the question is 825 00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,719 Speaker 2: is it useful to make that distinction. It's one thing 826 00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:07,640 Speaker 2: to recognize it, but let's say, let's say you're my 827 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,080 Speaker 2: four year old. You come to me and you say 828 00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:13,680 Speaker 2: that I'm afraid of so and so, and I say, 829 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,360 Speaker 2: snap out of it. Only cards are afraid and to 830 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:18,520 Speaker 2: get out of here and take care of yourself. And 831 00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,359 Speaker 2: then you went to your mom. I said, I tried 832 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 2: to talk to daddy. But you know, would it be 833 00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,560 Speaker 2: helpful for your meta to say, oh, snap out of it. 834 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,000 Speaker 2: Think all the kids that are being sexually abused, Think 835 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,040 Speaker 2: all the starving kids, think all the kids that are 836 00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,680 Speaker 2: being bombed. What are you complaining about? Would that be helpful? 837 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,480 Speaker 2: So that it's not a helpful game to play, I 838 00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,799 Speaker 2: don't compare people's traumas. Traumas simply means a wound, and 839 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:45,880 Speaker 2: people are wounded in all kinds of ways. When I 840 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,560 Speaker 2: try to help people, the least helpful thing I can 841 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,040 Speaker 2: do is to tell them that somebody else's trauma is 842 00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:56,200 Speaker 2: much worse than mine, much worse than yours. So objectively, yes, 843 00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:02,600 Speaker 2: practically it's not a helpful distinction. People are wounded, and 844 00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:04,200 Speaker 2: you have to tend to the wound whatever it is. 845 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:08,000 Speaker 2: You know, if you came to me with a cut 846 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,520 Speaker 2: on your arm, and he asked me to stitch it up. 847 00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,160 Speaker 2: It wouldn't be helpful for me to tell you that, oh, 848 00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,320 Speaker 2: what are you worried about? There's people with broken irons 849 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,400 Speaker 2: out there or people broken So no, it's not a 850 00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:25,120 Speaker 2: helpful thing to engage in, even though there's truth in it. 851 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,239 Speaker 1: Yeah. What's really fascinating every time I speak to you, 852 00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:33,640 Speaker 1: girl boy, is that there's such nuance subtlety. And there's 853 00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,640 Speaker 1: a quote that I want to share with you to 854 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:37,319 Speaker 1: get your thoughts on. I want to bring it up here. 855 00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:38,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 856 00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:43,919 Speaker 1: So this quote is from f Scott Fitzgerald, Okay, who 857 00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:49,239 Speaker 1: famously wrote the test of a first rate intelligence is 858 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:54,520 Speaker 1: the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at 859 00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:59,080 Speaker 1: the same time and still retain the ability to function. 860 00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,560 Speaker 1: One should, for example, be able to see that things 861 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,600 Speaker 1: are hopeless, yet be determined to make them otherwise. 862 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:12,839 Speaker 2: Absolutely. So that's brilliant. And what Fitzgerald is talking about 863 00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:18,200 Speaker 2: there is what it's called integrative intelligence. And integrative intelligence 864 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,799 Speaker 2: is when you can say, on the one hand, on 865 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:25,560 Speaker 2: the hand, both things can be true, and I need 866 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:30,800 Speaker 2: to somehow come to some conclusion about them without rejecting 867 00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,200 Speaker 2: the one truth or the other. Now, little kids are 868 00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,839 Speaker 2: totally incapable of integrative intelligence. So a three year will 869 00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 2: either say I hate you, daddy or I love you daddy. 870 00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:43,680 Speaker 2: But they can't say I love you daddy, but I'm 871 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:45,839 Speaker 2: very angry with you, which is really what's going on. 872 00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,200 Speaker 2: It's either a love or hate. So integrative thinking is 873 00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:54,520 Speaker 2: a capacity of intellectual and actually emotional naturation. A lot 874 00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,360 Speaker 2: of people are completely incapable of it. It's one or 875 00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:02,080 Speaker 2: the other. You talked about the the deadness of the 876 00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:08,239 Speaker 2: heart and the moral apathy, and all my life since 877 00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:14,319 Speaker 2: I've been conscious of the horrors, including and beginning with 878 00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:20,160 Speaker 2: the Holocaust that nearly killed me and killed my grandparents, 879 00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,440 Speaker 2: nearly killed my parents and I. When I became conscious 880 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,560 Speaker 2: of that at age eleven, what happened was that my 881 00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,080 Speaker 2: parents had a book on a high shelf they didn't 882 00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,799 Speaker 2: want me to read. And when I was eleven, I 883 00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,239 Speaker 2: climbed up on a chair and it was a book 884 00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:39,200 Speaker 2: called The Scourge of the Swastika, and it was about 885 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,160 Speaker 2: it was the first book about the Nancy horrors. And 886 00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,600 Speaker 2: I saw photographs and I read the story, and for 887 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,560 Speaker 2: years jay afterwards, literally every day in my head would 888 00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:52,160 Speaker 2: be busy. I'd spin say, how is this possible. How 889 00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:54,200 Speaker 2: is the heart not broken every day? I'm asking you 890 00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:58,000 Speaker 2: now because I'm wrestling with this question. I suppose I 891 00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,160 Speaker 2: have an intellectual answer, or more a point maybe along 892 00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,880 Speaker 2: the lines of fish what Schell says, how can her 893 00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:06,319 Speaker 2: heart be broken and not be broken at the same time? 894 00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:09,360 Speaker 2: Because I think both are necessary. 895 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:14,360 Speaker 1: And I find everything all across the world that occurs. 896 00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:23,080 Speaker 1: I feel like people's hearts are broken, but they break 897 00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:29,239 Speaker 1: an ache for different things. And I think that that's 898 00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:32,879 Speaker 1: why the words of Fitzgerald resonate so strongly with me. Yeah, 899 00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:38,600 Speaker 1: because just to repeat those last two lines, one should, 900 00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:41,600 Speaker 1: for example, be able to see that things are hopeless, 901 00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:49,279 Speaker 1: yet be determined to make them otherwise. And you know 902 00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,239 Speaker 1: what you're saying. It's how I was trained in the 903 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,600 Speaker 1: monastery as well. The goal was always how can you 904 00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:57,719 Speaker 1: be a helper? How can you be a server? How 905 00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:01,799 Speaker 1: can you be useful? How can you help heal? Like 906 00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:06,920 Speaker 1: that's what you look for in moments of tragedy, whatever 907 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:13,040 Speaker 1: they may be. And I just think that not much 908 00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:19,680 Speaker 1: unites us on the heart level as equals across the world. 909 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,319 Speaker 1: I don't think there's many things that we look to 910 00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:29,480 Speaker 1: globally as the human race, as we were once referred 911 00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,720 Speaker 1: to a call to that creates a sense of connectivity 912 00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:38,600 Speaker 1: and there's genuine fear that makes us feel well, if 913 00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:42,640 Speaker 1: my break my heart breaks for this, then what if 914 00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:44,480 Speaker 1: what will happen to my heart? 915 00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:46,319 Speaker 2: That the grief might be too much to bear? 916 00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:50,000 Speaker 1: Yeah? Or not? That I mean more so that well, 917 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,880 Speaker 1: if my heart breaks for this event, some part of 918 00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,839 Speaker 1: it is yes, there's too much to think about, for sure, 919 00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,960 Speaker 1: it's overwhelming. And then the other side is, well, if 920 00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:03,560 Speaker 1: it breaks for this, then is it allowed to break 921 00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:07,440 Speaker 1: for that as well? You know, this idea of holding 922 00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:11,879 Speaker 1: two opposing ideas seems to be such a need in 923 00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,640 Speaker 1: the world, like just generally, like even the belief of 924 00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,360 Speaker 1: I have to work on my health, that I'm happy, 925 00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,360 Speaker 1: I'm alive, Like these are two opposing ideas, Like we're 926 00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:25,800 Speaker 1: not looking at it from I'm unhealthy or I'm healthy. 927 00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,000 Speaker 2: Well, you know what's interesting there is that when I 928 00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,960 Speaker 2: was working palliative care, sometimes people would say to me, 929 00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,240 Speaker 2: and this is amazing, I don't recommend it, but they'd 930 00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:37,360 Speaker 2: say they'd be dying, they actually be dying. They'd have 931 00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:39,919 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks left. They say, Dog, I don't 932 00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:42,160 Speaker 2: explain this exactly. But this disease is the best thing 933 00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,280 Speaker 2: that have happened to me. I don't wish it on anybody. 934 00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,520 Speaker 2: But what were they talking about? Now? There's a guy 935 00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,840 Speaker 2: according the mythal normal who wrote a book called Blessed 936 00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:56,480 Speaker 2: with a Brain tumor. Blessed with a brain tumor. You're 937 00:57:56,480 --> 00:58:03,000 Speaker 2: Australian guy who was dying. Was a brain tumor, they'd 938 00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:08,200 Speaker 2: have surgery, did accept treatment. He also had a spiritual transformation, 939 00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:13,480 Speaker 2: has lived longer than his prognosis. I don't know what 940 00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:15,960 Speaker 2: his current status is, but we're a book called Blessed 941 00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:18,480 Speaker 2: with the Brain Tumor. And by the way, he developed 942 00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,320 Speaker 2: a brain tumor that is acted the same spot that 943 00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:24,320 Speaker 2: used to point at with an imaginary gun to shoot 944 00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,520 Speaker 2: himself in the head when he was thinking of suicide. 945 00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:30,080 Speaker 2: I said, what do you mean Blessed with the brain tumor? 946 00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,160 Speaker 2: And he said, well, knowing that I'm going to die, 947 00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:39,480 Speaker 2: but that I might means that every moment is precious. 948 00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:42,320 Speaker 2: He says. That means I'm when I'm talking to you 949 00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,040 Speaker 2: or anybody else, I'm fully aware that this may be 950 00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,400 Speaker 2: the last conversation we'll ever have. That means that every 951 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:52,480 Speaker 2: moment is absolutely precious. I've never been so engaged with life, 952 00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:57,160 Speaker 2: and that's what people meant. And so that even the disease, 953 00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,280 Speaker 2: that war was going to take the lives, they'd say, 954 00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,480 Speaker 2: And why because the disease taught them to be authentic 955 00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:05,360 Speaker 2: for the first time in their lives, and they found 956 00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:08,800 Speaker 2: out that was much more precious than anything else. No, 957 00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,520 Speaker 2: that's not a bargain i'd recommend to anything. I'm just 958 00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:16,680 Speaker 2: telling you that I've witnessed it, and it's quite astonishing 959 00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:20,800 Speaker 2: how many people do find authenticity. To go back to 960 00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:24,600 Speaker 2: our previous theme, they value that over anything else, over 961 00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:28,840 Speaker 2: even longevity. Now most of us would probably run the 962 00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:32,680 Speaker 2: other way. Again, I'm not recommending it. I'm just saying 963 00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:33,840 Speaker 2: I've seen it. 964 00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:37,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's always those opposing ideas, that feeling of 965 00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:43,280 Speaker 1: I'm good and I want to be better. Yeah, I'm 966 00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:46,800 Speaker 1: a good husband or a good dad, or a good mom, 967 00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,160 Speaker 1: or I'm a good whatever. At the same time, I'm 968 00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,960 Speaker 1: not good enough, like you know whatever. It may be. 969 00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,600 Speaker 1: Not that that's negative, but the idea of I know 970 00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:58,800 Speaker 1: I can do more and I want to do more. 971 00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:02,680 Speaker 1: So they said, you need for this dichotomy almost to 972 01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:07,240 Speaker 1: be held well, is there, Well, the ability to hold 973 01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:10,080 Speaker 1: those two opposing ideas is needed, right, Like, because you don't. 974 01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:11,320 Speaker 1: I don't want to live in a world where I 975 01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:14,440 Speaker 1: think I'm perfectly healthy, everything's amazing, because then I may 976 01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:17,760 Speaker 1: miss certain challenges. And I also don't want to live 977 01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:20,040 Speaker 1: in the other world of oh my god, like everything's 978 01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:22,120 Speaker 1: falling apart and I'm dying every second of the day. 979 01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:23,840 Speaker 2: But what if we just looked at it in the 980 01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:27,440 Speaker 2: unitary way, Then it's a matter of growth that I'm 981 01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:29,640 Speaker 2: not as fully grown as I might be. But there's 982 01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:34,840 Speaker 2: nothing wrong. Yes, yes, so you know I'll be eighty. 983 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:39,840 Speaker 2: You know, let me talk about you say eighty eighty. Yeah, 984 01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:40,880 Speaker 2: I know it's a big number. 985 01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:42,600 Speaker 1: You're doing great, it's amazing. 986 01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:45,360 Speaker 2: Well do the numbers. I was born in forty four. 987 01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:48,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. I always forget. Yeah, I forget when I'm with you. 988 01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:52,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. And there's this expression. I've been thinking about this recently, 989 01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:56,160 Speaker 2: this expression growing older. So we could just say being 990 01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:58,680 Speaker 2: older or becoming older or getting older, but we say 991 01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:02,480 Speaker 2: growing older. That's an interesting phrase, isn't it, Because actually, 992 01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:06,560 Speaker 2: as we get older, we shrink. So what are we 993 01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:12,760 Speaker 2: talking about growing older? Well, because growth being an emotional 994 01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:18,040 Speaker 2: spiritual process that continues that can continue forever. So for me, 995 01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:20,880 Speaker 2: it's not a matter of I'm good, but I can 996 01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,440 Speaker 2: be better. It's a question of can I continue to grow? 997 01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:28,160 Speaker 2: Not what there's anything wrong now, but can I continue 998 01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:32,680 Speaker 2: to grow? Which is really the essence of life. As 999 01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,440 Speaker 2: long as there's life, there's growth, isn't there? You know? 1000 01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:41,400 Speaker 2: And the growth maybe at some point purely physical, At 1001 01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:46,280 Speaker 2: some point physically there might even be contraction, But spiritual 1002 01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:49,600 Speaker 2: and emotionally they can always be growth. So it's rather 1003 01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:54,400 Speaker 2: than a dichotomy, it's more like a unitary process. 1004 01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:59,040 Speaker 1: I do appreciate that. I do feel that. What is 1005 01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,440 Speaker 1: You just sparked something for me. You were giving this example. 1006 01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:04,200 Speaker 1: The story just told about how the gentleman, when he 1007 01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:07,040 Speaker 1: thought he was going to commit suicide, he would hold 1008 01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:11,000 Speaker 1: his almost like a gun to his head. Yeah, and 1009 01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:13,000 Speaker 1: that's the place he developed the trauma. 1010 01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:14,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, the tumor. 1011 01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:20,120 Speaker 1: How does trauma intercept the body in that way like this? 1012 01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:23,480 Speaker 1: That feels such like a physical example of that. 1013 01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:25,360 Speaker 2: I can give you other examples. 1014 01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:25,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1015 01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:29,680 Speaker 2: When I was working in palliative care, I was looking 1016 01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:32,720 Speaker 2: after a young woman. She was thirty eight with als 1017 01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:37,680 Speaker 2: AMT traffic light as crosses, which is a disease, and 1018 01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:40,720 Speaker 2: the nervous system you basically get paralyzed. The muscles that 1019 01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:44,320 Speaker 2: or the nerves that activate your muscles just die their 1020 01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:49,120 Speaker 2: hard and that's what's closest means. So they they become 1021 01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:53,320 Speaker 2: rigid and they become unable to move. This woman, she 1022 01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:58,360 Speaker 2: was a dancer, beautiful woman, and we talked a lot 1023 01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:02,000 Speaker 2: in her last weeks. She told me that all her 1024 01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:05,760 Speaker 2: life she used to have this dream of being buried alive. 1025 01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:12,920 Speaker 2: Boxton unable to be unable to move. She was a 1026 01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:16,040 Speaker 2: dancer and she began to notice that on the dance 1027 01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:19,800 Speaker 2: floor she couldn't execute the movements anymore. Something was wrong. 1028 01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:23,880 Speaker 2: So she was diagnosed at ALS and she went to 1029 01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:27,480 Speaker 2: the office of the ALS Society and on the wall 1030 01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:30,400 Speaker 2: there was a poster that said having ALS is like 1031 01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:31,360 Speaker 2: being buried alive. 1032 01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:32,400 Speaker 1: Well. 1033 01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:38,480 Speaker 2: The cellist Jacquelin Duprey was a great classic British classical cellist, 1034 01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:44,280 Speaker 2: died in her forties. She was a big international rocket 1035 01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:49,280 Speaker 2: star in the classical music world. She died of MSS 1036 01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:52,920 Speaker 2: multiple scrosses. She couldn't move anymore by that By the 1037 01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:54,919 Speaker 2: time she was in the lily twenties, she couldn't play 1038 01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:58,560 Speaker 2: the cellum anymore. When she was eight years old, she 1039 01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,680 Speaker 2: said to her sister, He'll don't tell her mommy this, 1040 01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:04,000 Speaker 2: but when I go up, I won't be able to 1041 01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:09,200 Speaker 2: move or walk. Now, all of these people, these three people, 1042 01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:11,560 Speaker 2: the guy with the brain tumor, the woman with the 1043 01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:15,760 Speaker 2: LS jacking, the prey, they've been deeply traumatized in childhood. 1044 01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:18,480 Speaker 2: I'm not going to go into how, but they had been. 1045 01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:23,080 Speaker 2: That woman's dreamed that she couldn't move or walk was 1046 01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:26,160 Speaker 2: literally an expression over emotional experience in her family of origin. 1047 01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:31,080 Speaker 2: In her deathbed, nobody came to see her from her family. 1048 01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:33,760 Speaker 2: She was all alone, like she had been all her life. 1049 01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:39,240 Speaker 2: She couldn't be herself. She couldn't speak, or move or 1050 01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:42,720 Speaker 2: get enough air to be herself. So that dream was 1051 01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:47,600 Speaker 2: metaphoric to start with, then became a physical reality. Now, 1052 01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:49,840 Speaker 2: how does the metaphor does or how does the emotion? 1053 01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:53,360 Speaker 2: How does the trauma translate into physical reality? That has 1054 01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:57,000 Speaker 2: to do with the scientific little secret. Don't tell any 1055 01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:01,080 Speaker 2: doctors this because might not know what to do with it. 1056 01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:05,240 Speaker 2: But well some of them don't. They're not taught in 1057 01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:10,840 Speaker 2: medical school. Mind and body are unseparable. Our emotions, our 1058 01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:14,120 Speaker 2: nervous system, our emotional system, in our brains and our bodies, 1059 01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:17,600 Speaker 2: our nervous system, our horomonal apparatus, and our immune system 1060 01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:23,720 Speaker 2: are actually one system, all serving survival and growth and reproduction, 1061 01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:27,960 Speaker 2: and so they're not separate. Even to say that they're 1062 01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:33,520 Speaker 2: connected it is a bit false because it's one yes, yes, no, 1063 01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:38,240 Speaker 2: Which means that what happens emotionally can have a significant 1064 01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:42,480 Speaker 2: impact on the nervous system, on the god, on the heart, 1065 01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:47,560 Speaker 2: on an immune system, and on hormones. Just obviously, so 1066 01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:51,440 Speaker 2: without going into the mechanisms of how trauma effects, but 1067 01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:55,680 Speaker 2: trauma can affect genetic functioning, our chromosomes function, chroma can 1068 01:05:55,680 --> 01:06:01,160 Speaker 2: effect our immune system. Actually, for example, study that I 1069 01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:05,000 Speaker 2: callte women with severe post traumatic stress disorder have doubled 1070 01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:08,320 Speaker 2: the risk of ovarian cancer, according to a Harvard study 1071 01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:09,760 Speaker 2: a few years ago. Well, but that means that the 1072 01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:15,400 Speaker 2: severe emotions endured by the woman with PTSD can declare 1073 01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:18,640 Speaker 2: themselves in a form of malignancy because they affect the 1074 01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:23,480 Speaker 2: immune system and the molded the symptoms, the lesser risk 1075 01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:30,080 Speaker 2: of avarian cancer. So mind and body being one unit, obviously, 1076 01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:33,400 Speaker 2: our emotional lives and emotional traumas and wounds can show 1077 01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:38,600 Speaker 2: up in our physiology, which is why autoimmune diseases are 1078 01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:42,440 Speaker 2: much more common amongst racialized women, both in Canada and 1079 01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:45,520 Speaker 2: the US, because they hurt a lot more as women 1080 01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:51,120 Speaker 2: and as racialized people. So it's just all one thing. 1081 01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:54,520 Speaker 2: And again, is that a new finding or is that 1082 01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:59,400 Speaker 2: something or is that an ancient wisdom? And it's both. 1083 01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:03,320 Speaker 2: It is both modern science not taught in medical schools 1084 01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:10,280 Speaker 2: for reasons that are interesting but rather distressing, and it's 1085 01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:12,800 Speaker 2: ancient wisdom as well. It's all one. 1086 01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:16,360 Speaker 1: And with that approach, I mean, we can't minimize the 1087 01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:20,160 Speaker 1: number of steps and the uniqueness of those, but the 1088 01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:23,880 Speaker 1: hope is that people can work medically and mentally to 1089 01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:25,920 Speaker 1: be able to release that trauma. 1090 01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:30,440 Speaker 2: I have photographs on my on my cellphone, on my 1091 01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:33,800 Speaker 2: computer of a woman that I met five years ago. 1092 01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:36,600 Speaker 2: I gave it talk in London on this subject of 1093 01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:39,640 Speaker 2: mind body unity and how stress and trauma can lead 1094 01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:43,480 Speaker 2: to autommune disease and the automn diseases where the immune 1095 01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:47,080 Speaker 2: system attacks the body itself, and this woman sent me 1096 01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:49,760 Speaker 2: photographs a year ago now. When I met her, she'd 1097 01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:53,640 Speaker 2: been diagnosed with autiomn disease called systemic loopus, which has 1098 01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:56,880 Speaker 2: got a typical presentation of what's called the butterfly rash. 1099 01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:59,360 Speaker 2: So her face is red like here like the wings 1100 01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:02,280 Speaker 2: of butterfly, with the body of the butterfly as a 1101 01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:04,320 Speaker 2: red rash over and it's called the butterfly rash. It's 1102 01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:06,760 Speaker 2: typical of that disease. And she sent me a picture 1103 01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:09,400 Speaker 2: of her fingers. When she was diagnosed, they were like 1104 01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:14,840 Speaker 2: yellow as wax because the blood supply had been constricted. 1105 01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:18,720 Speaker 2: She was told that you got this disease. We don't 1106 01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:23,040 Speaker 2: know what causes it, can't cure it. Probably it'll get 1107 01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:26,040 Speaker 2: worse and you'll be on medication first of your life. 1108 01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:28,720 Speaker 2: I could saying these photographs, you could actually show them 1109 01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:31,400 Speaker 2: because she's given me permission. She sent me a pictures 1110 01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:34,519 Speaker 2: of ear ago faced at the beautiful pink as anything, 1111 01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:38,680 Speaker 2: no rash, fingers are as pink as mine, yours, No medication, 1112 01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:42,760 Speaker 2: no treatment. She just dealt with the emotional part of 1113 01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:45,759 Speaker 2: it all her life. She had suppressed herself, just along 1114 01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:48,839 Speaker 2: the lines I've been talking about. She dealt with her trauma. 1115 01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:53,160 Speaker 2: She's become fully authentically and vigorously herself the disease is gone, 1116 01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:55,800 Speaker 2: doctors would say. Of some doctors said, well, that's just 1117 01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:59,040 Speaker 2: an anecdote. Yeah, it's an anecdote, but happen to be 1118 01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:01,559 Speaker 2: a tool anatgot. I pay attention to anadlos. Not only 1119 01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:06,880 Speaker 2: that this has been studied systematically by others, and there 1120 01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:09,200 Speaker 2: are people who once they deal with the emotional side 1121 01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:11,960 Speaker 2: of things and take charge of their lives, they recover 1122 01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:14,960 Speaker 2: from diseases that are supposed to have been hopeless. And 1123 01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:18,160 Speaker 2: if you just look at the example of Stephen Hawking, 1124 01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:22,280 Speaker 2: the great physicist, who was diagnosed with ALS at age twenty, 1125 01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:26,240 Speaker 2: he lived another fifty five years. Now the disease progressed, 1126 01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:31,479 Speaker 2: but he outlived this prognosis by a good half a century. Folks, 1127 01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:34,200 Speaker 2: I hate to tell you this be doctors don't know everything, 1128 01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:37,840 Speaker 2: and especially we don't fully understand. I should say as 1129 01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:41,080 Speaker 2: a profession the wonder's workings of mind and body and 1130 01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:44,640 Speaker 2: the spirit and how they all interact. So when you 1131 01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:48,639 Speaker 2: look at the indigenous healing practices, like the North American 1132 01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:52,400 Speaker 2: natives that got this medicine, will four cardrance, which is 1133 01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:58,120 Speaker 2: the physical and the mental, which means also the emotional 1134 01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:02,920 Speaker 2: and the social and the spiritual and those four quads 1135 01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:05,760 Speaker 2: have to be imbalanced for us to be healthy. No, 1136 01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:07,880 Speaker 2: they didn't have the science we do, and they didn't 1137 01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:12,439 Speaker 2: have the amazing achievements of Western medicine, which are truly miraculous, 1138 01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:15,240 Speaker 2: but they did have a wisdom that if only we 1139 01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:20,200 Speaker 2: adopted then combined it with the incredible achievements of Western medicine. Boy, 1140 01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:23,320 Speaker 2: what a health system you could possibly have, you know. 1141 01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:27,559 Speaker 1: That's definitely there. Yeah, what you're helping try and build 1142 01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:31,000 Speaker 1: for the future, and all of our platforms are dedicated 1143 01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:33,360 Speaker 1: to that. Hopefully we can get to a place for 1144 01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:36,719 Speaker 1: that integrative, holistic viewpoint. 1145 01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:39,360 Speaker 2: And there are more and more physicians practicing that way. 1146 01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:44,160 Speaker 2: You know, there are people functional medicine and integrated medicine, 1147 01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:47,160 Speaker 2: not as holistic as I like them to be, but 1148 01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:51,360 Speaker 2: far more realistic than mainstream medicine. And these are medically 1149 01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:54,360 Speaker 2: twained physicians like I was. So there's not like some 1150 01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:57,920 Speaker 2: fly by night alternative weird orccult. I mean, these are 1151 01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:01,479 Speaker 2: just doctors who, like myself, at some point, came to 1152 01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:05,120 Speaker 2: terms with the limitations of their education and needed to 1153 01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:11,880 Speaker 2: infuse some more ancient wisdom into how they practice the 1154 01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:12,679 Speaker 2: arts of healing. 1155 01:11:13,240 --> 01:11:16,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, boy, I'd love to end with I'd love to 1156 01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:19,000 Speaker 1: hear from you what your wish, your prayer, your hope, 1157 01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:22,559 Speaker 1: however you'd like to word it. For humanity is right 1158 01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:25,040 Speaker 1: now today, at this time. If there's some words that 1159 01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:26,160 Speaker 1: come from your heart. 1160 01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:32,160 Speaker 2: If you could just wake up to our possibilities. You 1161 01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:33,920 Speaker 2: know that, you know the famous story of the body 1162 01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:36,800 Speaker 2: where he's walking along the road and somebody sees them 1163 01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:42,160 Speaker 2: with this vadiant face and confident gait, and he says, 1164 01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:43,880 Speaker 2: who are you a god? And the Boddy says, no, 1165 01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:48,439 Speaker 2: I'm awake. And if only we could be awake to 1166 01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:53,759 Speaker 2: our possibilities, like in every conflict, on the deepest human level, 1167 01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:59,280 Speaker 2: it's so unnecessary. We could actually be a human race together. 1168 01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:03,960 Speaker 2: It could be that we don't have to hurt ourselves, 1169 01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:07,240 Speaker 2: we don't have to hurt others, we don't have to 1170 01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:13,360 Speaker 2: take from them, demand from them. We could be this 1171 01:12:13,400 --> 01:12:15,519 Speaker 2: is actually possible for all of us. Since that is 1172 01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:18,040 Speaker 2: possible for all of us as individuals and for all 1173 01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:21,960 Speaker 2: of us as creatures, let's just wake up to our possibilities. 1174 01:12:22,160 --> 01:12:25,000 Speaker 1: It's beautiful. Gebele, thank you so much again for your time, 1175 01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:29,040 Speaker 1: your energy, your presence, and everyone who's been listening or 1176 01:12:29,040 --> 01:12:32,799 Speaker 1: watching at home. If you don't already, please do grab 1177 01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:36,840 Speaker 1: a copy of the book Myth of Normal because our 1178 01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:40,759 Speaker 1: first and second conversations were very different, and I guide 1179 01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:43,280 Speaker 1: you towards the book for the deeper resources, the step 1180 01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:46,920 Speaker 1: by step guide. It's what I try and avoid doing 1181 01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:50,000 Speaker 1: in these interviews is minimizing the amount of work it takes, 1182 01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:56,479 Speaker 1: or oversimplifying what Gable's beautiful work does in his deep books, 1183 01:12:56,560 --> 01:13:01,439 Speaker 1: because I believe he and everyone else would want you 1184 01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:04,200 Speaker 1: to take those steps. So I wish you all the 1185 01:13:04,240 --> 01:13:09,360 Speaker 1: best in your journey of trauma, illness and healing. And Gabor, 1186 01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:11,840 Speaker 1: I thank you for your work and your contributions today 1187 01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:13,679 Speaker 1: as well and forever to humanity. 1188 01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:16,840 Speaker 2: Well, it's always so peaceful to be with you, and 1189 01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:20,120 Speaker 2: believe me, these days I enjoy you know it's of peace. 1190 01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:22,360 Speaker 2: So thank you so much, Thank you, so much, thank you, 1191 01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:23,120 Speaker 2: thank you. 1192 01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:26,800 Speaker 1: If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with 1193 01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:31,200 Speaker 1: Dr Gabor Matte on understanding your trauma and how to 1194 01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:34,920 Speaker 1: heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past. 1195 01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:37,920 Speaker 2: Everything in nature goes only where it's vulnerable, So a 1196 01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:40,360 Speaker 2: tree doesn't grow over it's hard and thick does it. 1197 01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:42,760 Speaker 2: It goes where it's soft and green and vulnerable.