Speaker 1: Hi everyone. I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question.
Speaker 1: You Know, when I looked back at my forty year
Speaker 1: career in media, one of the things that stands out
Speaker 1: to me is the seismic cultural shift we've seen for
Speaker 1: the majority of my career, really into the last couple
Speaker 1: of years. So much of the news has been filtered
Speaker 1: through an incredibly narrow, mostly white sist mail lens, whether
Speaker 1: it was the people who were interviewed, the questions that
Speaker 1: were asked, or the people who asked them. Good morning,
Speaker 1: this is Today. I'm Frank Mee d And here are
Speaker 1: the headlines. Good morning, Here's what's happening. Here begins something New.
Speaker 1: I'm Charles Calf and this is Wilt is here with
Speaker 1: Maria Schreiber visiting is Today. It's going to have you, Maria.
Speaker 1: Good evening, the CDs Evening News with Walter Tronka. This
Speaker 1: is NBC Likely News with John Chance of All in
Speaker 1: New York, Harry Reisner and Barbara Walters, Peter Jennings, Dan Rather,
Speaker 1: Sam Donaldson. I'm Frank Reynolds and I'm Howard K. Smith
Speaker 1: in Washington. Good morning everyone, I'm Tom Brokaw on Today
Speaker 1: with the newest member of the Today Family, Jane Pauli,
Speaker 1: who comes to us from Indiana and Chicago. And as
Speaker 1: I said earlier, any family would be happy to welcome
Speaker 1: someone so bright and energetic and enterprising and just incidentally
Speaker 1: pretty as well. Charlotte, do you agree with that? Yes,
Speaker 1: I wish you were younger. You know, I ask you
Speaker 1: not to do that. Yikes, Gene. Fortunately, some things have
Speaker 1: changed since then, and not just for women. The activism
Speaker 1: we've seen against racism in the wake of police brutality,
Speaker 1: the push for pay equity across industries, the continued pressure
Speaker 1: from the Me Too movement, the wave of lgbt Q
Speaker 1: representation in so many arenas are all getting us to
Speaker 1: a more inclusive, enlightened place. I reflected on these changes
Speaker 1: in my memoir, and when I look back, there's one
Speaker 1: interview for me that stands out up as a prime
Speaker 1: example of how far we've come. Coming up in this
Speaker 1: half hour, it was a crime that shocked the entire nation.
Speaker 1: It was February. Matthew Shepard, a gay student at the
Speaker 1: University of Wyoming, was found beaten and tied to a
Speaker 1: fence last fall. A cyclist passing by said he resembled
Speaker 1: a scarecrow. Shortly afterwards, Matthew Shephard died and now his
Speaker 1: parents are talking for the first time. I interviewed Matthew's parents,
Speaker 1: Judy and Dennis, on The Today Show. This was just
Speaker 1: four months after their son was brutally beaten and left
Speaker 1: for dead, four months after his death became a national
Speaker 1: story and a clarion call for gay rights. What do
Speaker 1: you think matt would have thought of all this because
Speaker 1: to some he's he's become almost a martyr. Well, it's
Speaker 1: a very frightening concept as a parent that your son
Speaker 1: now becomes a martyr and a figure of public figure
Speaker 1: for the world. He's just our son. We talked about
Speaker 1: what matt was like, always a loving and kind, gentle
Speaker 1: spirit who had respect for everyone's views, and how they
Speaker 1: reacted when he told them he was gay. He was
Speaker 1: our son. We would have accepted and loved him and
Speaker 1: support him no matter what decisions he made. And then
Speaker 1: having said that, was it a bit hard to accept
Speaker 1: at all? You want to see your son or your
Speaker 1: daughter uh have grandchildren so that the family tree continues.
Speaker 1: It was hard to accept the fact that it stops here.
Speaker 1: Listening to it now, I'm struck by how differently the
Speaker 1: subject of having a gay child was treated back then.
Speaker 1: I brought this up recently when I interviewed the Scottish
Speaker 1: actor and queer icon Alan Cumming, pointing out how dated
Speaker 1: this line of questioning feels now. I think it so
Speaker 1: much actually has changed. And since you know and and
Speaker 1: and then you cous Matthew Shepard was a huge turning point,
Speaker 1: I think. And that was actually right when I first
Speaker 1: came to New York. That's when I was doing cabaret,
Speaker 1: remember it. But I think those things, those it's like,
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, stuff pre me too. Stuff sounds
Speaker 1: now so like how insane could we have put up
Speaker 1: with all that? But actually what you're talking about when
Speaker 1: you said that to him, that is very much how
Speaker 1: people thought in those days. It's it does it is dated,
Speaker 1: but it's it's not it's not offensive. It wasn't offensive.
Speaker 1: I meant from any pace of offense. It's just really
Speaker 1: interesting how things in certain areas sometimes changed so fast.
Speaker 1: And thank God that we have got a generation of
Speaker 1: young people who are coming up who don't I think
Speaker 1: in the same way that we we weren't brought up
Speaker 1: in the same way that we are who have grown
Speaker 1: up with the possibility of otherness all around them. I
Speaker 1: am so kind of heartened by the young when it
Speaker 1: comes to lgbt Q acceptance. Matthew Shepard, as Alan Cumming
Speaker 1: just said, was in many ways the turning point in
Speaker 1: this country. He is gruesome. Death sounded the alarm and
Speaker 1: inspired a whole new generation of activists to fight for
Speaker 1: the equality and protections the LGBT community deserved. I've been
Speaker 1: lucky enough to interview the Shepherds in the years since.
Speaker 1: In fact, Judy came on my talk show. In day
Speaker 1: to day it changes. Sometimes it seems like it was
Speaker 1: just yesterday, as you said, or a hundred years ago.
Speaker 1: It's every day is a brand new day. Still, after
Speaker 1: fifteen years, it never gets easier for those who loved
Speaker 1: matt His life and death impacted so many, and on
Speaker 1: today's episode this Thanksgiving week, just a few days shy
Speaker 1: of what would have been his forty five birthday, we
Speaker 1: explore Matthew Shepherd's legacy through one of those people who knew, loved,
Speaker 1: and was inspired by him. I will apologize if there's
Speaker 1: times that I get terry and I cry, because it
Speaker 1: just means so much to me to be doing what
Speaker 1: I'm doing, and um, sometimes I get a little bit
Speaker 1: of overwhelmed because life has come full circle for me.
Speaker 1: Jeff Matt was a friend of Matt's at the University
Speaker 1: of Wyoming. They met through the LGBT There wasn't a
Speaker 1: queue yet group on campus. The LGBT group was just
Speaker 1: our great way of all getting together and knowing each other.
Speaker 1: And Matt was such a nice, sensitive person, super smart,
Speaker 1: would give you the shirt off his back, was just
Speaker 1: always just so so kind um, and someone you always
Speaker 1: wanted to go have a beer with, or you know,
Speaker 1: hang out with, or talk politics with, and you know,
Speaker 1: wanting both wanting to be in politics. It was It
Speaker 1: was fun to be able to talk about that today.
Speaker 1: Jeff is the newly appointed executive vice president of the
Speaker 1: Matthew Shepard Foundation, an lgbt Q education, outreach and advocacy
Speaker 1: organization started by Judy and Dennis. I cried in every
Speaker 1: interview for this job, and I said, I said to
Speaker 1: everybody's like, I don't cry during job interviews, but this
Speaker 1: just means so much to me, and carrying on his
Speaker 1: legacy just means so much. I grew up in Wyoming.
Speaker 1: I grew up in a town of a eighty people
Speaker 1: called Chugwater, Wyoming, and I grew up ten miles outside
Speaker 1: of that on a farm, and gay wasn't something that
Speaker 1: people really knew, and if it was, it was something
Speaker 1: that was was very, very bad. And uh. I went
Speaker 1: off to school at the University of Laramie, very University
Speaker 1: of Wyoming, Laramie, and was not out. I was a
Speaker 1: fraternity member, and I left to go work for my
Speaker 1: fraternity on the East Coast and came back and was
Speaker 1: admissions council. So I was about three three and a
Speaker 1: half years older than Matt, and you know, I was young,
Speaker 1: and I joined the LGBT R. I was a part
Speaker 1: of the LGBT group because I couldn't join it because
Speaker 1: I was not a student. But I was a young
Speaker 1: professional and that was my That was my outlet to
Speaker 1: to be gay. And getting to know Matt through the
Speaker 1: LGBT group and having that safe space was my only
Speaker 1: outlet while I was in in Laramie. Wasn't out to
Speaker 1: my family, wasn't out to anybody. And when um, when
Speaker 1: Matt died, I was actually on a work trip and
Speaker 1: one of my colleagues got sick and couldn't go on
Speaker 1: the recruiting trip, and so we drove up to Jackson
Speaker 1: that week to do a recruiting trip for the university.
Speaker 1: And uh, our boss Kathy called one morning and was
Speaker 1: the morning that Matt was found. Sorry, it just I mean,
Speaker 1: twenty plus years later, it just still gets me. And um,
Speaker 1: Kathy goes with you, please sit down, And so I
Speaker 1: sat down and Cathy told me that Matt had been
Speaker 1: found tied to a fence post and was in critical
Speaker 1: condition in Fort Collins and she said come home now.
Speaker 1: And it was a couple of days later that he
Speaker 1: then died. Uh. So then through that entire next year,
Speaker 1: it was all of us trying to just figure out
Speaker 1: what was going on with our lives. We really bonded together.
Speaker 1: The group really tried to start doing some activism and
Speaker 1: so that really at that moment, gave me the introspect
Speaker 1: to go is admissions where they need to be. And
Speaker 1: you look at so many of Matt's friends and we've
Speaker 1: all kind of gone in our own paths. I took
Speaker 1: the path of I was just like, I have to
Speaker 1: save the world. I have to do something. Jeff left
Speaker 1: the small town of Laramie, Wyoming and his admissions job
Speaker 1: at the university. He moved to big cities Denver first,
Speaker 1: then l a and Washington, d C. Weaving his passion
Speaker 1: for lgbt Q activism with the nonprofit World. He worked
Speaker 1: for the Human Rights Campaign, the Outfest film Fest, Stable,
Speaker 1: the American Red Cross, and the Kennedy Center for the
Speaker 1: Performing Arts. The thing that has happened through all of this,
Speaker 1: Judy kind of became my adopted virtual mom. Judy has
Speaker 1: seen me grow as you know, this kid who's too
Speaker 1: scared to be in the Larmie Project because he didn't
Speaker 1: want people to think he was gay, to see me
Speaker 1: grow as a professional. I wasn't too much older than
Speaker 1: Matt Um. It always breaks my heart thinking that if
Speaker 1: I had been there that week, would I have got
Speaker 1: out for a drink with him? You know, would we've
Speaker 1: would would would something else have been different? You know?
Speaker 1: I used to go karaoke at the fireside and you
Speaker 1: know it was it was one of those places that
Speaker 1: we would go to and we never felt in danger
Speaker 1: until that happened. I was I had never been called
Speaker 1: faggott or anything like that. Um, And so Larmie changed
Speaker 1: in a way and that's one of the reasons why
Speaker 1: I decided to leave, because I needed to see the
Speaker 1: big city, and I wanted to go out and change
Speaker 1: the world. And coming back here and seeing what the
Speaker 1: foundation has done, and Judy and Dennis just going and
Speaker 1: talking to people has really put a face to it
Speaker 1: and has helped people understand that being an ally is very,
Speaker 1: very important. Still to this day. Judy and Dennis launched
Speaker 1: the Matthew Shepherd Foundation on their son's birthday December one,
Speaker 1: and in the twenty three years since, the organization and
Speaker 1: Judy and Dennis have had a huge impact on legislation,
Speaker 1: lobbying for marriage equality, over turney, don't Ask, Don't tell,
Speaker 1: fighting job discrimination policies, and most profoundly, this afternoon, I
Speaker 1: signed in the law but Matthew Shepard and James Burd Jr.
Speaker 1: Hate Crimes Conventional, a bill that was also named for
Speaker 1: James Bird Jr. A Texas man who was brutally killed
Speaker 1: by three white supremacists just a few months before Matthew's murder.
Speaker 1: Judy and Dennis work so hard to get the Hate
Speaker 1: Crimes Prevention Act, and that was two thousand and nine,
Speaker 1: and so that took ten years ten to get This
Speaker 1: is the culmination of a struggle that has lasted more
Speaker 1: than a decade. Time and again, we faced opposition, time
Speaker 1: and again the measure was defeated or delayed. Time and again,
Speaker 1: we've been reminded of the difficulty of building a nation
Speaker 1: in which we're all free to live and love as
Speaker 1: we see fit. What the Act did was greatly expand
Speaker 1: the government's ability to prosecute federal hate crimes, including now
Speaker 1: for the first time, those crimes motivated by a victims
Speaker 1: sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability. It's passage twelve years
Speaker 1: ago was historic, and it still stands as a land
Speaker 1: mark piece of legislation when we come back. How Matthew
Speaker 1: Shepard inspired a new generation of activists. By the nineteen nineties,
Speaker 1: the culture Wars were raging. Everything from abortion to religion
Speaker 1: to women in the military sparked vicious debate, but none
Speaker 1: more so than gay rights. The agenda that Clinton and
Speaker 1: Clinton would impose on America, abortion on demand, a litmus
Speaker 1: test for the Supreme Court, homosexual rights, discrimination against religious schools,
Speaker 1: women in combat units. The tension at the time is
Speaker 1: pretty well represented and pap you can inspire e speech
Speaker 1: at the Republican National Convention. There is a religious war
Speaker 1: going on in this country. It is a cultural war
Speaker 1: as critical to the kind of nation we shall be
Speaker 1: as the Cold War itself. For this war is for
Speaker 1: the soul of America. We had in that struggle for
Speaker 1: the soul of America. Clinton and Clinton are on the
Speaker 1: other side, and George Bush is on our side. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: I can't even say the word. Why can't I say
Speaker 1: the word? I mean, why can't I just say? Gay
Speaker 1: life was making its way into the nation's living rooms
Speaker 1: like never before. I'm gay. You know, Ellen came out
Speaker 1: and had repercussions and lost her show when matt was killed.
Speaker 1: I think Will and Grace came out just a couple
Speaker 1: of months before that. It's not that not that big
Speaker 1: a deal. You just jumped into Jack's arms. Last time
Speaker 1: a woman did that. A woman has never done that.
Speaker 1: We we weren't seeing our images on mainstream TV. We
Speaker 1: were either a stereotype or an add on character. So
Speaker 1: what smooth Still, But Matthew's death in many ways turned
Speaker 1: the tide culturally and politically. You know, I hate to
Speaker 1: always say it, and I think people have said it,
Speaker 1: but Matt's death was the second Stone Wall, and it
Speaker 1: really invigorated everyone to really stand up for themselves. You
Speaker 1: saw something that was so tragic and so hate filled,
Speaker 1: and it just rallied the community in a way that
Speaker 1: hadn't been seen in a long long time. And you know,
Speaker 1: you often see such a huge tragedy will will rally communities,
Speaker 1: and I think it's those kind of things that awaken
Speaker 1: people and shock people and then they get shocked into action.
Speaker 1: And I think everyone got shocked into action by that
Speaker 1: good evening. Matthew Shepherd was not a cause, He was
Speaker 1: not an issue. Matthew Shepherd was a young man who
Speaker 1: had a future and was denied that future. All the
Speaker 1: candlelight vigels, the best tribute we can get to Matthew
Speaker 1: is to cherish life every day. It really brought a
Speaker 1: lot of allies out. I am a wife, heterosexual, raised
Speaker 1: as a Catholic Republican, and I am so ashamed of
Speaker 1: my people right now. It brought a lot of people
Speaker 1: who you wouldn't necessarily anticipate would be an activist or
Speaker 1: would go out and you know, March, I am so
Speaker 1: piste off. I can't stop crying. And it just hit
Speaker 1: me why I am so devastated by it. It's because
Speaker 1: this is what I was trying to stop. This is
Speaker 1: exactly why I did what I did. It happened all
Speaker 1: over the country, it happened all over the world. It
Speaker 1: really brought attention to you know, this is this is
Speaker 1: a problem, and the you know, everyone's like they're asking
Speaker 1: for special rights, and you know, we were like, no,
Speaker 1: we're asking for for equal rights. And that helped the
Speaker 1: allies get behind saying you know, yeah, they need these
Speaker 1: protections and they need this. And it really just created
Speaker 1: an army of young activists that spread out and and
Speaker 1: shows the nonprofit world to to go. And I have
Speaker 1: so many friends that decided to do it right at
Speaker 1: the same time as me, and and matt was one
Speaker 1: of the underlying issues, or one of the motivations for
Speaker 1: for everybody to do that, to get out there and
Speaker 1: make an impact, because it could have in any one
Speaker 1: of us. We'll be right back. Thanks to the work
Speaker 1: of organizations like the Matthew Shepherd Foundation and dedicated activists
Speaker 1: inspired by his life and death, the last twenty years
Speaker 1: have seen tremendous strides for the LGBTQ community. April of
Speaker 1: two thousand Vermont made same sex marriage legal. One of
Speaker 1: the big stories this week is Vermont. Vermont, of all places,
Speaker 1: has pretty much okayed gay marriage. In two thousand nine,
Speaker 1: the Matthew Shepherd and James Bird Hate Crimes Prevention Act
Speaker 1: becomes law two thousand eleven. Don't Ask, Don't Tell was
Speaker 1: over in two historic breaking news coming out of Washington today,
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court strikes down the defensive Mary Jacked DOMA,
Speaker 1: which became law nineteen nineties six. This is a major,
Speaker 1: broadly written opinion which strikes down the law on the
Speaker 1: ground that it discriminates against gay people. In President Obama
Speaker 1: acknowledge the LGBT hugh community in his State of the
Speaker 1: Union address. That's why we defend free speech and advocate
Speaker 1: for political prisoners, and condemn the persecution of women or
Speaker 1: religious minorities, or people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender.
Speaker 1: We do these things not only because they are likely.
Speaker 1: In June of and I remember exactly where I was.
Speaker 1: I was in a conference room in Boston when the
Speaker 1: Supreme Court declare the same sex was a constitutional right.
Speaker 1: All of us cried. It's profound. The five to four vote,
Speaker 1: in many ways reflecting the huge societal shift of the
Speaker 1: last twenty years. And then in the military will allow
Speaker 1: transgender Americans to serve. Opening in the military may have
Speaker 1: seen stonewall and became a national monument. In more than
Speaker 1: a LGBD candidates were elected into office in the term elections.
Speaker 1: Once Tuesday Night's victors are sworn in, for the first
Speaker 1: time in history, the United States will have more than
Speaker 1: a thousand LGBTQ officials serving at once. And then you know,
Speaker 1: we started seeing more gay, lesbian, bisexual people on on TV.
Speaker 1: The original show was fighting the tolerance, our fight dis acceptance. Hey, world,
Speaker 1: there's a new power couple on the horizon cam and
Speaker 1: Mitch kitch. No, that sounds weird, ma'am. We'll find it.
Speaker 1: I wish I knew how to quit you. I'm not.
Speaker 1: Don't get pregnant because I don't like having sex with men.
Speaker 1: So anyway, I'm by. You're wearing a wedding dress to
Speaker 1: my wedding. This is not a wedding dress. It's a
Speaker 1: white floor link gown. It's very difference. Did it come
Speaker 1: with a vell, No, it came in a head dress.
Speaker 1: What I've been doing the show for ten years. I
Speaker 1: still have the same haircut. I wear the same ten
Speaker 1: dollar blazers Donald's. If you didn't like me, then you're
Speaker 1: really probably not gonna like me now because I'm hosting
Speaker 1: S and O and I'm like, so gay, dude, this
Speaker 1: is Moonlight, the best picture, and I am here today
Speaker 1: because I am gay. And now you know, later on
Speaker 1: we're seeing more transgender people on on TV. Listen, doc,
Speaker 1: I need my dosage. I've given five years, eighty thou
Speaker 1: dollars and my freedom for this. I'm finally who I'm
Speaker 1: supposed to be. Do you understand I can't go back.
Speaker 1: I look at it this way. Brush always telling a
Speaker 1: lie slive eyes whole life about who he is, and uh,
Speaker 1: I can't do that any longer. Are you? Are you
Speaker 1: saying that you're gonna start dress sing up like a lady?
Speaker 1: All of my whole life, I've been dressing off like
Speaker 1: a man. This is me. It's the little it's you know,
Speaker 1: getting out of the shower and the towels around your
Speaker 1: waist and you're looking at yourself in the mirror and
Speaker 1: you're just like there I am today. It may be
Speaker 1: a different world, but unfortunately the work to protect the
Speaker 1: lgbt Q community must continue. In legislative session, over two
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty potentially harmful lgbtach related bills were introduced
Speaker 1: throughout the country, over half of which were anti trans
Speaker 1: That is more than has ever been introduced in the
Speaker 1: history of America. And so and I don't I don't
Speaker 1: think people know that. And I think if people knew that,
Speaker 1: they want to pay a little bit more attention. So,
Speaker 1: you know, we we have to stay virgins. I'm hopeful,
Speaker 1: I'm optimistic, but have to be vigilant. What would life
Speaker 1: look like for the LGBT community if we didn't have
Speaker 1: that second wave and that second stone wall. You know,
Speaker 1: I would prefer to have Matt here, But thank God
Speaker 1: something good came out of it. Being here is humbling
Speaker 1: and it is inspiring, and I just want to do
Speaker 1: right for the organization and really carry on the legacy
Speaker 1: for for Matt. Thank you to my guest Jeff Mac
Speaker 1: and to everyone at the Matthew Shepard Foundation. Next week,
Speaker 1: on next Question, we're cooking up something special. I'm not
Speaker 1: a podcast host. This is I'm moonlighting. This is not
Speaker 1: my full time gig. Alison Roman is here and she's
Speaker 1: playing me. I'm going to take a quick breather from
Speaker 1: my whirlwind tour, But don't worry. I'll be back before
Speaker 1: you know it, sharing my favorite moments from my cross
Speaker 1: country trip. But until then, you're in good hands with
Speaker 1: our guest host, the chef and cookbook author Alison Roman,
Speaker 1: so stay tuned. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media. The
Speaker 1: executive producers Army, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising
Speaker 1: producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clemens, Adriana Fasio,
Speaker 1: and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by
Speaker 1: Derrek Clemens. For more information about today's episode, or to
Speaker 1: sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go
Speaker 1: to Katie Currek dot com. You can also find me
Speaker 1: at Katie Curic on Instagram and all my social media channels.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.