1 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: So I have an eleven year old and it has 2 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: occurred to me something very very sad. I'm not a 3 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: big reader. I think I was a big reader when 4 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: I was a kid, or I was a reader. I mean, 5 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: I somehow I've read all the classics, and I'm sure 6 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: I was being tested on them. And I don't think 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: they had cliffs notes then, but yet they had them. 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: But we I just that wasn't my gig. But you know, 9 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: my daughter doesn't love reading. She likes reading the graphic novels, 10 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: which to me or comic strips. So I don't know 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: if that's really absorbing. I do think that reading anything 12 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: is reading, and I am not a big reader. I'm 13 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: a big writer, so it's hard for me to talk 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: about this. But I love that I've read Huckleberry Finn 15 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: and all these books and they'll make the kids read them. 16 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: But there's just a disconnect in um. You know, people 17 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: really aren't reading. And what crazy is that our kids 18 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: are on their devices so much. Us too, by the way, 19 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: we're on our devices so much that people are watching 20 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: Instagram and tick talk and googling and looking at information 21 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: about people and watching YouTube, and that's the new television 22 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: so just but it's such a different form, meaning we're 23 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: just consuming this junk food all the time that matters, 24 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: doesn't matter, like there's a bomb somewhere, but you know 25 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: something happened with Cardi B. Like everything's blended into one pot. 26 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: It's not like when used to sit down and you 27 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: waded through commercials and you were chose to be on 28 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: a news channel, or you were watching one show and 29 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: you watch the whole thing. You weren't. Sort of watching 30 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: a show on a streamer that you know you could 31 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: rewind in two seconds or watch again, or it doesn't 32 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: really matter, or binge watch watch forty two episodes at 33 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: the same time, which is like eating a bag of fritos. 34 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: You don't even know what you ate. You're not even 35 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: sure if you enjoyed it. You're just you're rushing it. 36 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: Then sometimes you slow it down by pause. You stop, 37 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: you go to the bathroom, you get a snack, you pause, 38 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: you do repeat. It could take so long to get 39 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: through an episode, which I like because that means we're 40 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: not rushing through it. But who the hell cares because 41 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: there's another show to go through, and you forget the 42 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: shows that you've already been interested in which I've discussed before. 43 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: I will sit down with palm, like, wait, what do 44 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: we do now? What are we watching next? Like? And 45 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: there are forty things that you know you wanted to 46 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: watch and you forget. Is it a movie? Is it 47 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: a documentary? But I'm I'm what's crazy too, is that 48 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: you know you want your kids to read, you know, 49 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: sit down and read. It's almost like a punishment. Take 50 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: take an hour. I need you to read in addition 51 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: to homework, just just we don't need to be doing 52 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: something read. And my daughter is not really a device 53 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: person compared to children. As a baby, I woke up 54 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: my eyes bleeding at six o'clock with her when she 55 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 1: was running around wishing she was a late sleeping baby. 56 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,119 Speaker 1: And I didn't throw her in front of the TV. 57 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 1: I did not use TV as a babysitter. Who the 58 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: hell knows if it made a difference or not. You 59 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: try to do everything right when their kids, and it 60 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: probably all doesn't matter because many of the people who 61 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: were thrown in front of television at you know three 62 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: are now major award winning directors. But I tried to 63 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: do what I thought was right. I didn't play Beethoven 64 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: in my stomach, but I did not. She wasn't overly 65 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: stimulated by TV or after school activities or anything. So 66 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: she's not a really bad device kid. I know kids 67 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: who have their phone every second, who have their device 68 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: every second. It's frankly disgusting. It's not it's just you 69 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: know what's wrong. You don't know why, You just know 70 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: what's wrong. So you'll say to your kids read. You know, 71 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: you want them to read, even if you're not reading. 72 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: You want them to read. What's crazy is now because 73 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: they're always on their devices, dancing, making videos, tiktoking, I 74 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: guess social media besides TikTok. My daughters not, but other 75 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: kids telling them Now, you want to tell them to 76 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: watch television because that's like the new reading. Sitting Why 77 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: you know, why don't you sit down for now and 78 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: watch television? Like they look at you, like, what watch television? Like? 79 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: What have they just said? To sit down and watch television? 80 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: Not just like churning and birning and digesting some content. 81 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: So the Banket statement is television is the new reading. 82 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: That's certainly not great. Our guest today is Jack Riley, 83 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: former d e A agent and one of Chicago's highest 84 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: ranking special agents. Lately, he has turned away from a 85 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: life of fighting crime to writing crime. He is a 86 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 1: top rated author, known for his book Drug Warriors, detailing 87 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: the thirty year hunt for the infamous criminal and drug 88 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: lord El Chopo. I've seen him in documentaries and have 89 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: been fascinated by his work for a long time. This 90 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: is a unique one and I can't wait for you 91 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: to hear it. This is something that I just pushed for, 92 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: knowing that many of you wouldn't even know his name. 93 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: But what an interesting story, and what a badass and 94 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: what a fearless man. Grateful that you're here today. I 95 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: wanted to know if if you were surprised to hear 96 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: from me, you're like, what the hell does she want 97 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: to talk to me about? Absolutely? I uh. I mentioned 98 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: to a couple of people and they said, this ought 99 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: to be good. Let's say what she's got? Well, did 100 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: you even know who I was? Absolutely? My my wife 101 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,119 Speaker 1: knows who you are. Well that's funny, because yeah, because 102 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: if not for her, I was wondering and I looked 103 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: up if you were married, and then I thought, all right, 104 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: we have a shot of him knowing why I'm asking 105 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: him to do this. Um, and I wondered if you 106 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: do any or a lot of podcasts at all. You know, 107 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: I've done, I've done several. I still do quite a few, 108 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: uh documentaries and interviewers from time to time about current stuff. 109 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: And uh, they just signed about two weeks ago with 110 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: a production company is going to try to make a 111 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: movie from based off the book. So that's that's pretty 112 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: that's pretty much what I pet up to. Okay, So 113 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: I love the show because there's such a wide variety 114 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: of people that I interview, and sometimes I don't know 115 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: who the people are there pitched to me and they've 116 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: done amazing things in science or philanthropy and or entertainment, 117 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: and sometimes it's just something that I'm really interested in 118 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: that I pitch and I never have any idea if 119 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: I'll get the person or you know, if it's the 120 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: right fit. So this is something that I asked for. 121 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: I wanted to interview you. Um, it's interesting. I recently, 122 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: uh reconnected with my mother through my daughter after a 123 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: long time, and she told my fiance that when I 124 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: was a kid, I watched Scarface a thousand times. She 125 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: said she was obsessed with this movie. We kept going 126 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: to the video store to rent it. It's not a 127 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: normal thing for a young girl to be wanting to 128 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: watch and you know, having grown up at the racetrack 129 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: with a bunch of unsavory, degenerate characters, maybe I mean not, 130 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: maybe that was likely connected. So as an adult, I 131 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: watch a lot I like documentaries or something that's you know, 132 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: just telling a true story, not fiction or you know, 133 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: related to closely related to to to uh to the 134 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: true story. So that's how in watching a lot of 135 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: these documentaries on Cartel's and the drug industry, I've seen 136 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: you and a lot of them, and I was just 137 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: interested because in watching the way so many different people work, 138 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: and I'm sure you've seen so many different people and 139 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: the way they operate. Men, they're all not most of 140 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: them are not educated. And these are real businesses, like 141 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: very serious, intricate businesses and in many cases brands. And 142 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: so I'm curious first about that part of it, Like 143 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: you're coming in and there must be a part of 144 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: you that it is almost admires it or can't believe 145 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: the operation in business they're they're running, you know, legal aside. 146 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: I mean absolutely, if if you just look at Chapel Guzman, 147 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: for instance, I mean, the guy's a mass murderer in 148 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: grand proportion, no doubt about it. But he's one hell 149 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: of a corporate ceo. For him to organize, insulate UH, 150 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: deal with the corruption issues, all of the security issues, 151 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: keep keep his enemy at bay, and then stay out 152 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: to jail and make billions of dollars, It's amazing. And 153 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: if we now look and we know more about his 154 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: inner workings, and he literally had a corporate structure. He 155 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: had a security division, he had a personnel division which 156 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: actually took UH job applications from people that wanted to 157 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: work on behalf. And mostly that was so if if 158 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: they cooperated with us, that they would kill the family, 159 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: take all their money and all those other things. And 160 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: I think they think he did. The most surprised us 161 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: was his business plan. And his business plan really revolved 162 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: around the addiction habits UH in the US. So if 163 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: you look back, if you look back into the nineties 164 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: when we really begin see prescription drug abuse take off 165 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: in this country, and it was hitting you know, all 166 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 1: walks of life, social, economic didn't matter. Um. He saw 167 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: it coming UH. And prescription drugs in general are very 168 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: expensive to get. At some point your doctor is gonna, 169 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: you know, stop prescribing. You can't steal them from your 170 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: grandmother's medicine boxes that runs out and are extremely expensive 171 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: on the street. So his plan was slowed down on 172 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: the cocaine, begin processing as much heroin as possible because 173 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: it's an opioid. And he understood that once the prescription 174 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: drug pipeline ran out, they were going to turn to 175 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: high potent, cheap Haro one. And that's precisely what Sinaloa 176 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: did under his direction. And you really think that it 177 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: was a plan, like a chess plan, You think that 178 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: that was I mean, you have proof that that's been 179 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: spoken about and really mapped out charted. Yeah, it's interesting, 180 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: and I'm often asked, well, other than the personal thing 181 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: I had with him, how do I know this? Well, 182 00:09:58,240 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: much of what we know about him and is in 183 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,359 Speaker 1: of workings both here domestically and overseas, are from wire taps. 184 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: So we listened to the bad guys tell us the story. 185 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: We didn't make it up and there and there were 186 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: i mean hours and hours of collections all over the 187 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: world of him and his organization, and it was very 188 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: clear that he did have a business plan, He had 189 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: a he had a CFO, he had accountancy, he had 190 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: security people. There's just no way that he could have 191 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: survived for twenty years on top like he did without 192 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 1: this type of organization. So I always say, had he 193 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: chosen the right line of work, that probably would have 194 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: been a he would have been a CEO in a 195 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 1: legitimate company. Well that's what I want to know about 196 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: society with people that are poor and underprivileged that go 197 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: towards that route if they were given an opportunity. You 198 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: think he's just as intelligent to be running. Uh you 199 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:57,439 Speaker 1: know a fortune? You know Forbes company? What is a fortune? Five? Fortune? 200 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: What am I saying? Fortune? There's no Yeah, there's no question. Yeah, 201 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: there's no question. I mean. And if you look at 202 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: his upbringing, he came up in a place in Mexico 203 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: which is desolate. It's kind of a farming community when 204 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: it is farming. But he grew up with traffickers, and 205 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: there's a little bit different of his education because he 206 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: learned how to smuggle before he learned how to traffic narcotics. 207 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: And that's what made him so able to move stuff 208 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: across the border. We just to call him Alapio because 209 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: he could get a load of dope from internal part 210 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: of Mexico to l A, Chicago, New York in twenty 211 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: four hours. And that's what he was known for. So 212 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: he truly was a smuggler and a logistics genius. So 213 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: he's the person who's like not he's doing distribution and 214 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: marketing and operations, and he's running several aspects of his business. 215 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 1: I guess what I'm getting at is is it harder 216 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: to become a billionaire legally or illegally? I think over 217 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: the long run, it is clearly illegally. Uh to start 218 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: where he started to be able to do what he 219 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: did in the environment and with the government that he 220 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: was dealing with, and I think at want just to 221 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: show you give you an example of the other thing 222 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: he had to deal with. At one point, we're fairly 223 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 1: sure that he had about sixty to seventy million dollars 224 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: a month going out for corruption at all levels of 225 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: the Mexican government, from the military to the police to 226 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: possibly right up to the president president's office. So he 227 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: was dealing with that and keeping it at bay. And 228 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: one of the things I always point to is this 229 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: guy survived three presidential transi transitions, which is unheard of. 230 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: For organized crime, because usually they lose control, they lose 231 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: their their vested interest in the people because they all changed. 232 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: But he didn't. He became stronger, so he was in 233 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: everybody's pocket um, and that allowed him, I think, to 234 00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: successfully grow, use the border more, use the military, more 235 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: in his behalf, and made it harder for us to 236 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: put the handcuffs on him. I know. I mean, I 237 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: guess we could say this about somebody who's in a 238 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: straight corporation and greed, but there's so much more risk. 239 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 1: I always think when I'm feeling very successful, that the 240 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: wolves are at the end of my bed and they're coming. 241 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 1: I mean, these people think they're invincible. So why when 242 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: there's so much risk, can you not stop the music? 243 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: Because you literally can't get out. It's like a mafia. 244 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: You just can't get out because you will get killed 245 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: the way the way that it's portrayed. Yeah, there's really 246 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: especially at guys at his level, there's really no way out. 247 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: Uh it is. You're either going to die by a 248 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 1: bullet from one of your rivals or I'm gonna lock 249 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: you up. But there's there's not a good ending. And 250 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: I think the interesting thing about him is and I 251 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: think you'll find this kind of interesting. It was never 252 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: the money with him, It was always the power, always 253 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: having control of all of these people, all of this 254 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 1: vast area. You know, Sinaloa is a kind of a 255 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: lawless part of Mexico, but it's gorgeous, and he controlled 256 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: it um. Everybody there was on the payroll, whether it 257 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: was a guy sweeping the street or a commandante from 258 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: the local headquarters of the police. And that's what he 259 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: truly liked. And I do think, uh, he liked out 260 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: smarting us too. I think that was kind of a 261 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: personal thing for him. Cat and mouse, like catch me 262 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: if you can. It looked like that, and and fame, yes, 263 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: and fame, And at the end he got crazy and 264 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: that's what got him caught, all right. So we're talking 265 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: about you though, So you do you become obsessed with this? 266 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: Is it just your job? Is it right or wrong? 267 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: Is it personal? Um? And you know, I I watch 268 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: a lot and read a lot about this, and you 269 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: know they're the ones doing You know, they're they're they're 270 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: like the little creatures under your house that have their 271 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: own program. You can't see them, so for you, it's 272 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: so much harder. They're the ones on the run, like 273 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: you don't even know where they're going. So now you've 274 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: identified your target, but they've got everybody. A lot of 275 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: people aren't listening to you know, everyone's got their own 276 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: ship going on, and everyone is there for your plight 277 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: in your obsession. So how do you capture our roach 278 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: in Manhattan? Right? Well, for me, it was it came 279 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: about a little bit different. I was put in charge 280 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: of running our Passol Division, which is right along the 281 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: border and it covers about a third of the Mexican border. 282 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: And at that time, Chapel had really emerged and Wirez, 283 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: which was literally right across the border, was a flame. 284 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: There were more people being killed in wires and in 285 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: Baghdad or Afghanistan, um virtually every day um. And what 286 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: happened for me personally is they gave an interview to 287 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: a newspaper, UH and come to find out that it 288 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: was the sister city, sister paper of a paper in 289 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: El Paso, but it was based in Ware's and Chappo 290 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: actually owned part of the newspaper his or his people did. 291 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: And basically what I said, I was sent down here 292 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: to kick Chopplo's ass. That's the way I look at this, 293 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: and I'm going to do everything I came to hurt 294 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: his organization. Well, what happened then was a few Mexican 295 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: counterparts that we were able to trust and work with 296 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: called a couple of days later and said, look, they 297 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: picked up a bunch of chatter that he just put 298 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: a bounty on my head. So us Christ So that 299 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: now you know it was me or him? And I 300 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: think I was not for a couple of years. And 301 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: I didn't tell my boss in Washington because they would 302 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: have moved me immediately, and I didn't want to leave 303 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: my people down there, and I wanted to kick this 304 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: guy's ass. Um So a badass in your life, like 305 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: were you tough? You know, is like a badass or 306 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: just a nice guy? I was a street agent. I 307 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: grew up doing undercover work and I just happened um 308 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: to hook up with the right agents as I my 309 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: career was progressing, and I made it up to the 310 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: number two positions in the agency. But much of that, 311 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: uh was basically it's in this job much like the 312 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: FBI and a t F. It's reputation if if you're 313 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: known as a kick ass work work, hard guy that 314 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: makes large cases those are those are the things that 315 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: people will follow you. Um, and people take notice, and 316 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: the U S. Attorneys take notice, and so are the 317 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: bad guys. And that's kind of where this went. So 318 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: were you scared? Oh? Absolutely. There were times when a 319 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: couple of times I was followed home. Um, I wasn't 320 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: sure if I was going to make it. Um, you know, 321 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: and it ended up and I talked about it in 322 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 1: the book, but it ended up being a pretty tough 323 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: situation on oan on the highway in New Mexico, where 324 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: I was to his guys and myself and you know, 325 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: I had one pistol with me and it could have 326 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: went bad. And I was new to the area. I 327 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 1: didn't even know where I was, so I couldn't even 328 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: call for help. Um. So yeah, those things, yes, But 329 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: you know what it did is it strengthened my resolve 330 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: and I got to make it, you know, clearity, I 331 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: didn't do anything by myself. No, I'm sure. Obviously he's 332 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: got an army. There's hundreds of dedicated heroic cops and 333 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: prosecutors and d e A agents and FBI we all, 334 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: but this was a rallying call for for the agency. No, 335 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: it sounds like you're organized. You're very organized and delegate 336 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: and execute and you know you have to pick a 337 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: lane and a decision and go with it. So how 338 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: do you do that? How do you organize that when 339 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: everyone's scared and it's a moving target and it hasn't 340 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: worked every time, and then you keep going. You have 341 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: to get the trust your superior So how does that 342 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: whole thing go down? Well, you have to get the 343 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: right people working for you. And in this particular case, 344 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: had we not gained some support of our law enforcement 345 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: counterparts in Mexico, we wouldn't have been successful because up 346 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,239 Speaker 1: to that point we had a terrible relationship with him. 347 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 1: If we supplied information to them, two things happened, they 348 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: would compromise it, sell it well, they wouldn't do anything. 349 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: So our relationships to be able to operate within Mexico 350 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: were hampered. Now we do have agents full time in Mexico, 351 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: UH and they can only do so much without the 352 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: help of their counterparts. It's it's like that all over 353 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: the world. But our relationships were so bad um it 354 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: took us about ten years to build them. And then 355 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: we started working exclusively with the Mexican Marines, who are 356 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: heroes in my book, and they were. They were incorruptable. 357 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 1: Why that's so interesting because I'm thinking, how you know 358 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: people in Mexico. The way it's portrayed is that everybody's 359 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: on the take because there's such a terrible way of life, 360 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: So why are they not on the take? And why 361 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: why are they so who who's who's directing? There? Are 362 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: a very small entity within the military apparatus there. But 363 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: we trained them, Our special forces trained them, d e 364 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: A trained them, we vetted them. Um, so we had 365 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: that bond. And at that point, you especially towards the end, 366 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: Chapel had escaped twice, which was really a national embarrassment 367 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: to them. So when I asked when I was a 368 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: second in charge at that point, and I asked the 369 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: ambassador for a meeting with the head of the federal police, Um, 370 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: we went down there and they said, look, we're gonna 371 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: give you anything you want. We got to get this 372 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: guy out. We have to get him out and the 373 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: organization now and uh so that's kind of how it started. Um, 374 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: but you know, to be to be really serious about this, 375 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: this is a once in a generation bad guy we 376 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: were dealing with. Now, I'm not saying, there's not other 377 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: cartel members or organized traditional organized crime people that are 378 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: just as dangerous. But this was a guy that built 379 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: his business and built it before anybody else could really compete, 380 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: and that's why he was so entrenched. Um, and I 381 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: really attribute I mean, he's a killer, but he's a 382 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: smart son of a gun. Well, that's what you're saying. 383 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: I talk about branding and business and infrastructure, and I'm 384 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: thinking about your infrastructure because it's certainly people would probably 385 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: perceive that it's all muscle. You're on the ground with 386 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of military guys. I can't imagine what the 387 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: preparation was and the organization. And you have to be 388 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: surgical because you only get one shot and you're gonna 389 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: screw it up and then you can't get the chance again. Right, 390 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: And you know the other thing is too and this 391 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: is an important thing. We played by the rules and 392 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: we have a limited budget. Right, he makes up he 393 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: makes up the rules, and he's got an unlimited bunt. 394 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: So so those are really important things you have to 395 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: work with. The reason we were successful as we stopped 396 00:21:55,080 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: worrying about him and we've concentrated on the people around him. 397 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: His doctors, his girlfriends, his cooks, all of those people 398 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: who would let their guard down specifically throughout communications. So 399 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: we were able to build a pattern of life much 400 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: like what they did with Osama bin Laden, and we 401 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: were able to kind of get an idea where he was, 402 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: what he was doing, who was with him. If if 403 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: this doctor was moving, then he was going to meet 404 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: up with our guy. So we had to try to 405 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: surveil and locate. I mean, we even came up with 406 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: an idea that Chopo was having problems with the girls. 407 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: He was a little infinite um, so he wanted to 408 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: have a pump put in. So we got on the 409 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,239 Speaker 1: doctor's phone because we knew at some point they were 410 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: going to rendezvous and it was an opportune time, so 411 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: we went to that extent um. Well, that's what I 412 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: call him business find your way in. So for people 413 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 1: listening who have small businesses a lot of them, you 414 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: were working with limited resources comparatively is David and Goliath, 415 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 1: but thinking smart and figuring it out and find in 416 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: your way. You know, it's not always the obvious way, 417 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: and so I find that so interesting. Yeah, I think 418 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: that's why I wanted to speak to you. Because it 419 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: just seems like something insurmountable and very frustrating, and you 420 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: never even know if you're gonna get there. You could, 421 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: God forbid, you could have died without doing It would 422 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: have been very, very understandable. And we've had a lot 423 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: of agents die in the pursuit of people like this, 424 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: not to mention the literally thousands of innocent people in 425 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: Mexico that he's killed. Um so this whole and I 426 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: think the other thing I attribute to him more than 427 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: anybody is he understood from an organized crime point of view, 428 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: the role of violence. He knew it was important to 429 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: have the threat of violence against against your rivals, against 430 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: law enforcements. But the one fundamental thing he never forgot 431 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: was if you overdo it, it's bad for business. So 432 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: too much violence is bad for business. The government would 433 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: then get serious. We when they killed our agent in Mexico, 434 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: we shut down the border, so commerce, commerce was effected everything, 435 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: And he he understood that. I think that shows a 436 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: good corporate leadership. Mind, let's flex our muscles, but let's 437 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: not be stupid. Yeah, it's going to hurt us in 438 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: the in the in our bottom line. So compare legal 439 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: drugs in the United States to illegal meaning I guess financially, 440 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: but then ethically, do you think if you saw that, 441 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: I mean, yes, obviously the movie Dope Sick Um. Do 442 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 1: you think that it's the same thing. They're effectively knowingly 443 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 1: dealing drugs? Oh, there's no, There's no question about it. 444 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: The other thing that d e A does is we 445 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: regulate the legitimate pharmaceutical industry and from bad doctors, the 446 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: bad pharmacists to big pharma the way they mishandle things. 447 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 1: One of the things that frustrated me as the deputy 448 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: director was we had a a diversion case where they 449 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: would divert legal pharmaceuticals to the black market on a 450 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: major company, and I wanted the c e O s indicted. 451 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: I wanted I wanted to see those guys in their 452 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: Brookes Brothers suits in the prison yard playing kickball with 453 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: some real felons. But what happened was their relationship with 454 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: Congress and all of the money that they supply in 455 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: the lobby ring. We couldn't thing. Yeah, we could never 456 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: get to them. So what did they do? Riley? We're 457 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: gonna give you what you want, but no one's going 458 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: to jail. But they're gonna pay you guys a hundred 459 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: fifty million dollars. That's like a one day's work for 460 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: chop out. And and it's still going on today. And 461 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: that's the one thing. They just drove me crazy. At 462 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: the end, dealing with Congress, I'd have to testify it 463 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: was all political part no one. I used to say, 464 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: I'm not a politician, I'm a cop. And Obama put 465 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: me in that job even though I'm not really a Democrat. 466 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,479 Speaker 1: But they just kill you and you see it today 467 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 1: and it it really affects this country's ability to fight 468 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: this this epidemic go on now. Well, it's crazy because 469 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: when Biden wanted to pull troops out and and it 470 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: costs so much money a day. The thing is, it's 471 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: the cost of doing business to keep the drug situation 472 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: at bay. You have. It's like I can't just not 473 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: have insurance in my house. I can't just not have 474 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: a fire let you have to have it to keep 475 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: your life moving. It's just it's insurance. So it's crazy 476 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: because people feel like you can never to treadmill. We're 477 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: never going to quote unquote get there. You're just there, 478 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,719 Speaker 1: you know, doing security at all times to make sure 479 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: you're keeping the problem as at bay as possible. What 480 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: is the worst drug you've ever seen, legal or illegal? 481 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: And worst sort of drug crisis, worse moment in drugs 482 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: that you've ever seen. I think we're going through it 483 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: now with sentinel Um. Fentinal is a synthetic It's a 484 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 1: clandestine produced form of heroin. It's forty to fifty times 485 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 1: stronger than street level heroin. It can be absorbed through 486 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: the skin or you can breathe it in in small 487 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: minute particles and you're dead. So we're seeing mass overdoses. 488 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: The Mexicans now are producing fentanyl, uh, and they're putting 489 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: it in pillform, So people get on the internet and 490 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: they think they're getting, you know, five oxy cottons, they're 491 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: getting a lethal dose and fentanyl. So we have about 492 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: in this country around two hundred people a day that 493 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: are dying from drug addiction. And I just and this 494 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: is consistent. I just don't understand why people don't stand 495 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,959 Speaker 1: up to this issue. There's so many political connections to it, 496 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: you know. And the other thing with d e A. 497 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: We don't knock a door down and go in the 498 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: basement and arrest the high school kids smoking with a bomb. 499 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: That's not what we do. We go after UH organizations 500 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 1: that are transcontinental that affect the security and safety of 501 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: the United States, and we do it. We have about 502 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,959 Speaker 1: seventy offices around the world because we want to attack 503 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: get origin UM and that, and that is something I 504 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: think that's one of the reasons we've been successful. We 505 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,959 Speaker 1: have the largest overseas presence of any U S law enforcements. Well, 506 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: I had an experience knowing someone I did not know 507 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: that they had a problem because they're very good UM 508 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: hiders of that. And you later put all the pieces together. 509 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: But I remember thinking, because it made my eyes open 510 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: to this, I'm naive when it comes to two drugs UH. 511 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: But when the pandemic started, I was thinking to myself, 512 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: if you see people doctor shopping and they're dying, trying 513 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: to get pills anywhere they can, and people were taking 514 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: pills or taking fifty to a hundred pills a day, 515 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: that's not even abnormal, like they can't they can't feed 516 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: the beast. So then I thought, in the pandemic, when 517 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: they can't get to doctors or they can't get anywhere, 518 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: they're trying online, they're gonna are they walking into the streets, 519 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: or are they like what's happened, what happened during the 520 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: pandemic that changed in this industry with addicts and drugs, 521 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: The desperation must have been through. I think it was desperation, 522 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: But I also think it goes to the existing addictions 523 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: prior to the pandemic, and the way the society and 524 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: everybody else kind of shut down there for almost a year. 525 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: Now we'll guess who didn't shut down. Guys like Chapel 526 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: Guzman didn't shut down, those organizations didn't shut down. You know, 527 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: in Chicago alone, there's a hundred and fifty thousand street 528 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: gang members, a hundred and fifty thousand street gang members. 529 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: And I'm sure in New York has the same issue, 530 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: but they largely make their living putting dope on the street. 531 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: So those people don't go away, and the addiction grows, 532 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: and and I think what you saw is with the 533 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: advent of fentnel, the way it's now in pill form, 534 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: it's being cut with regular heroin because it's far more profitable. 535 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: It can be produced seven. You don't have to worry 536 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: about the rain, the sunn the soil to produce the poppies, 537 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: to make normal heroin. It is a home run, it's 538 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: a whole run. You bring one kilo of it in, 539 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: you can make forty kilos street level heroin. And I 540 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: bet the emotions of the pandemic though made addictions affected 541 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: addictions and wanting to to medicate. I mean, I just 542 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about what it's been like for this 543 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: past couple of years, people being home with their own 544 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: thoughts and desperation in many different ways. It seems lethal. Oh, 545 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: there's no question about it. I think if you just 546 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,959 Speaker 1: look at the liquor sales during the pandemic through the room, 547 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: that's the same issue exactly. Um so do you still 548 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: work or like you're writing, but these all passion projects? 549 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: Is your wife? Is your wife? Like this enough? Now? 550 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: If this was over? Like, what what's your Yeah? We yeah, 551 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: I was thirty two years, I was transferred thirteen times, 552 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: and my son was in three high schools. So we're done. 553 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: You know, we're gonna follow this book, hopefully to a movie. 554 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: But I speak. I'm asked to speak the law enforcement groups. 555 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: I've had a couple of people make runs at me 556 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: for running for Congress. You know, what's the book called 557 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: A drug Warrior? A drug warrior. Okay, great, every want 558 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: to buy a drug warrior. Um. So you're enjoying it 559 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: because you're doing what you want. Now you're not and 560 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: you're not, But what about you must miss it a 561 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,719 Speaker 1: little action? Oh my god, I I tell everybody, the 562 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: worst job I've ever had is a retirement. I missed. 563 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,959 Speaker 1: I missed the pace of it, I missed the people, 564 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: um now, and I missed. What I missed the most, 565 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: I think is just having a drive to see something happen, 566 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: you know, to do something that's good. When you hook 567 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: a guy up and he goes away, that was selling 568 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: dope to kids, that's you go home. You feel good 569 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: about what you've accomplished. But you also understand this has 570 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: to continue or we're going to eat ourselves in this society. 571 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: We've got so many things going sideways, and this is 572 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: you know, I always say, for as long as we exist, 573 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: we're going to be dealing with this. It's how we 574 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: choose to confront these people, these bad guys, and we 575 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: got we got to stay on them to kick their 576 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: ask because nobody else is going to do it well. 577 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: I had been watching one of these shows and I 578 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: said it to a woman who was doing my hair 579 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: who was in a thirty young, pretty fawn, nice girl, 580 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: and I said, have you've seen this? She said, of course, 581 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: said I've seen every single one. I said, was because 582 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: because every single person I know is a drug addict. 583 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: I said, what, Like I was thirty, Uh not everybody 584 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: that I knew was a drug addict. Like I couldn't 585 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: even She just said it like it was nothing. And 586 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: she said, because everybody's on oxy and fent and all. 587 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,479 Speaker 1: And she said, well, you just said so it's a 588 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: real problem. And that's why I'm dabbling. And this that's 589 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: why I called you like off on this podcast. I 590 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: just find myself in this conversation and you know, think 591 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: about the journey it could take um which I think 592 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: it is important. I think it is. It's great that 593 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: you're still sort of your foot is still your toe 594 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: is still in the pool because you can teach other 595 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: people to care and to activate even if you you know, 596 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: you're not forty five anymore, there are other forty five 597 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: year olds and you can. I also, it does strike me, 598 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: which is less important than this topic, but it strikes 599 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: me that based on all that you've observed and watching 600 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: the machinations of a cartel and operation like that from 601 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: a business standpoint, that you could speak not only on 602 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: this but on actual business like people activating and how 603 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: to get organized and underprivileged, Uh, you know, building businesses 604 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: with no resources, thinking that it couldn't be them. That 605 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: that's what I was sort of trying to get at earlier. 606 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: Do you know what? It's so? What you're doing is 607 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: so good And here's why, because you hit on something 608 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: very few people ask me. And it's the one thing 609 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: I think people need to know. How the hell did 610 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: we get this way? How did a guy like Chappel 611 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: Guzman become who we became, and why did we let 612 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,719 Speaker 1: that happen? Um? And no one else thinks about that. 613 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: They want to see the gunfights, the dead bodies, the 614 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: the you know, the millions of dollars. Okay, that's great, 615 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: but that's not the real issue. The issue is how 616 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: do we let this happen? And what do we have 617 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: to do so it doesn't happen again? And I think 618 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: that's why what you're talking about it is wonderful because 619 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't care. They want to watch 620 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: those shows. I know it's so funny because I have 621 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: on here I wrote, questions are something about Sean Penn 622 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 1: and an actress, like I don't. If it's something interesting 623 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: that is that is going to help people, then great. 624 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: But I didn't ask it because I don't really give 625 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: a ship, you know what I mean, Like, I don't 626 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: care what I mean respectfully to Sean Penn who has 627 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: done relief work in Haiti and I don't know him, 628 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:25,759 Speaker 1: but I don't. That's not what I care about, you know. 629 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: I'm just caring about you and what you're doing and 630 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: what you did and how you were able to do 631 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: something insurmountable against somebody that is uncatchable, and then him 632 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: because right for him to become so successful, something happened. 633 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: And maybe if people channel that into legal businesses and 634 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: thinking they're good enough and have worth it, they don't 635 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: have to go into that, you know. I mean, listen, 636 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,919 Speaker 1: we can't change the world, but these conversations can maybe 637 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: help a little. It's important. It's so important. It's so 638 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 1: much more important than so many other things. I think 639 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: people A lot of people are looking for answers. Yeah, 640 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: you know, they wonder about these things. I mean, if 641 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: you look at Chapel right now, his tube that with 642 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: sons are trying to take over the business, but unfortunately 643 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: they're not being very successful. So now we have a 644 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: whole new breed of cartel bosses and up and comers 645 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: that we're dealing with. In many of them, just like 646 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: in the early days of Chapol, we heard, we knew 647 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,959 Speaker 1: he was there, we heard about him, but we really 648 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: had no idea who he was and what he was 649 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: capable of. And I think that opened everybody's eyes. But 650 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: you know, the one thing that is good And I 651 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: hope they hope people buy and read the book. It's 652 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: doing fine, and I hope we make the movie because 653 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: people need to see just how vicious these people are. 654 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: At the same point, they need to talk about what 655 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: you're talking about. They're vicious, but they're pretty damn bright 656 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: and they understand the market. And I think that that's 657 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: lost right. You may need to you may need to 658 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: consult with like a billionaire CEO about how to run 659 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 1: an operation versus just thugs who might not know how 660 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: to run an operation. And yeah, we're getting it's the 661 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: mind of a mastermind. You gotta game has to meet games, right, 662 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: and they all got to work, They all got to 663 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,919 Speaker 1: come together because somebody's gotta pull the trigger. Someone's got 664 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: to do the transportation, someone's got to break some legs 665 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: to get paid. And then somebody's got to take care 666 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,479 Speaker 1: of the government officials who are there with their hands 667 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: out trying to get bribes. That's a massive undertaking for anybody, right. 668 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: The political aspect of it is insane because you can't penetrate. 669 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: It's crazy. And that's the same thing with the with 670 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: the pharmaceuticals. So it's very similar. It's very very similar. 671 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: One is just not as violent, although it probably is 672 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: in someone who's making the movie or who's talking about 673 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: someone option it. Yeah, Dark Castle Movies, Silver, the Silver Company. Okay, well, um, 674 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: hold on the Silver Company. This was so interesting. I'm 675 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: so glad I reached out to you. And I was like, 676 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: this guy's gotta be like, what the hell is better 677 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: frankl calling me for which I do find funny. But 678 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: I love curiosity and conversation and business and that you 679 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 1: know the business aspect of that. So there, now that 680 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: you're here, I'm sure you see there is a correlation. Um, 681 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: And I'm so grateful you took the time and I'm 682 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: glad you're at least in your retirement safe because I 683 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: was oddly worried about you when I watched you on 684 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: some of these shows. I'm like Jesus, that's got to 685 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,919 Speaker 1: be so scary. He probably didn't sleep for years. Yeah, 686 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,959 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm an old irishman, so a little 687 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: bit of bourbon goes a long way, if you know 688 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 1: what I mean. Rose and thorn of your career. I 689 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: forgot that. What's the what was the rose? The high 690 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: of your career in the thorn? I think when I 691 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 1: was named the highest ranking special agent in the agency, 692 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: when I was a deputy director. The director is a 693 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: political appointee. Um. And then the hardest thing is having 694 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: to bury people that worked for me um, which I 695 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: mean unheard of. And I still talked to all the 696 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: families all the time. I support them however we you know, 697 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: we can. UM. But it happened on my watch, and 698 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: that's one thing I'll never It'll never go away. That 699 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: sounds brutal and interesting that anybody would have thought that 700 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: your rose would have been capturing al Chopo and it wasn't. 701 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: It was something more personal. So that's also telling. Yeah, 702 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's it is what it is. You know, 703 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: I did have a lot of fun though. I had 704 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 1: a lot of fun, a lot of laughs, and we 705 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: kicked some mass, so in the end it was good. 706 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: That's a great line. I had a lot of fun. 707 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: That would be your tagline on the Housewives. I had 708 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: a lot of fun. Something we did, we did and 709 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: we kick some ass. That sounds like my time on 710 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:46,800 Speaker 1: the Housewives. Actually, So tell your wife. I said, hello, 711 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 1: thank her for giving me the personal stamp, and I 712 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: appreciate speaking to you today. Well you got a you 713 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: got a new fan, that's for sure. I'm all over this. 714 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: Oh fantastic. Great. The conversations are always different, but always 715 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: somewhat interesting. I hope, thank you, Thank you care. I mean, 716 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 1: I know it's so strange that I sometimes just throw 717 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 1: these people into the podcast that everyone around me is 718 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: looking at each other and saying, who, who the hell 719 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: is that? Or you know, but I'm so it's so 720 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: liberating to be able to just want to talk to 721 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: someone and then have a conversation that is, in my opinion, 722 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 1: so important and so interesting. Uh. And that's why I 723 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 1: really love this forum, because if I had a talk show, 724 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: this wouldn't play necessarily. It's just It's just a living, 725 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: breathing conversation. I really love it. That was unbelievable. That 726 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 1: was so interesting, so many questions answered, and uh, really 727 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: good to talk about this crisis because it's an absolute tragedy. 728 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: It needs to be discussed. But that man is a 729 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 1: serious hero, courageous American who fought against a mastermind criminal. 730 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: I mean that has to have really taken him to 731 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: his limit. Jack, that was incredible. I was That was 732 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,959 Speaker 1: really unbelievable. Um, So thank you for listening. Remember to rate, 733 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 1: review and subscribe and have a good day. Just Be 734 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: is hosted by me Bethany Frankel. Just Be as a 735 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 1: production of Be Real Productions, I Heart Radio and Blue 736 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: Duck Media. Are EPs are Morgen Levois, Antonio Enriquez, and 737 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: Kara Hit. To catch more moments from the show, follow 738 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:27,240 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Just Be with Bethany