1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Body dies, but Joseph's gotten more. The downside I think 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: of human remains, particularly when they are dismembered human remains, 3 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: is the fact that without the entire body, you can't 4 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: tell the full story. And so many of these cases 5 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: that pop up in the news or that we as 6 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: practitioners have worked over the course of our lives, can 7 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: be very frustrating because sometimes you'll only find one part, 8 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: and just like in life, you can't tell the full 9 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: story of someone just because of a single element. It 10 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: goes much deeper and there's always that fragment bit, not 11 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: just in the sense from a scientific standpoint, but also 12 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: in the narrative of someone's life. This is going to 13 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: be part two of our discussion regarding the different types 14 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: of dismemberment. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags. 15 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: We're back at it, Brother Dave, We're back at it. 16 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: We've talked about three different types. There's five, and in 17 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: the first segment that we cut the other day with 18 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: the first three, we you know, we kind of touched 19 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: I'm not going to say lightly, because it wasn't lightly, 20 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: but we went into the different types from that perspective, 21 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: and of course the most common. The most common is 22 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: what's referred to as defensive dismemberment, right where I think 23 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: that many people that engage in this behavior, they suddenly 24 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: have this epiphantal moment with oh my Lord, what in 25 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: the world have I gotten myself into? And they're trying to, 26 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: you know, split the body up so that they can 27 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: get as much distance between themselves and the body and 28 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: maybe deposit it somewhere, just to get away from those 29 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: things that are going to tie them back to some 30 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: kind of horrendous case. And listen, there are actually cases 31 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: out there day where the person did not necessarily have 32 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: a hand in the death of the individual. And I'm 33 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: actually reflective right now. And forgive me, I can't remember 34 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: the guy's name, but there was the guy that was 35 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: the attorney and his dad is also kind of a 36 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: defract or, however you want to put it, judge. And 37 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: they had moved to Florida from Michigan, and the dad 38 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: was like up in the seventies. The son and the 39 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: dad were doing coke together. Oh yeah, I remember remember that, 40 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: and that the son panicked. I think that the dad 41 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: had a massive heart attack, which doesn't surprise me. I 42 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 1: mean he's he's up in age and he's snorting coke 43 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: with his son, and the son actually dismember the dad 44 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: and the head is gone forever and ever. Amen, they 45 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: still haven't located the head. And he was charged, I think, 46 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: and I remember covering that trial on long crime. He was. 47 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,839 Speaker 1: He was charged in the case, but he was only 48 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: found guilty of you know, abuse of a corpse, I think, 49 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: is what it came down to. So not all of 50 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: these cases actually involve, you know, a homicide, unlike the 51 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: case we're just coming off of with Brian Walsh right 52 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: where he tried to sell everybody on this idea that 53 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: what was it? He said? He said, I wanted to 54 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: spare my children. I wanted to spare my children the 55 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: horror of their mother having died. Oh okay, cool, So 56 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: you're gonna chop up your their mother and deposit her 57 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: body all over the place. What a humanitarian you are? Right? 58 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 2: You are? You know, that mental giant, you know coming 59 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 2: up with that as a game plan, because if you know, 60 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 2: his wife dies sudden adult death syndrome and instead of 61 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 2: calling nine to one one where they could come in 62 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 2: and take a look and figure out what happened, no, 63 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 2: he doesn't. That that's the normal call people make, because hey, 64 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 2: if she died in the bed, Joe, if she dies 65 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 2: there and she's just laying in the bed sudden adult 66 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: death syndrome, then by golly, uh, there there's nothing he 67 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 2: can worry about, nothing he has to worry about. They 68 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 2: will come in, they will examine and figure out. Wow, 69 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 2: but what he chooses to do, I mean, if you 70 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: believe his story, see now, if you don't believe his story, 71 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: then what happens of him cutting up his life on 72 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 2: a is just beyond the pale. You know, it's just 73 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: none of his reasoning stands up. But as we've gone 74 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: through these, Joe, these dismemberments, you remember at Crime Con Orlando, 75 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: when we get an entire segment on dismemberments, and you know, 76 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: I don't know if there are more happening or if 77 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: we're just hearing about more, because there is so much, 78 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: you know, uh, so many people are creating content now 79 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 2: online that we hear about these cases. I don't know. 80 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: Well, it's it's listen. I mean, look, I'm chief among 81 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: centers here, all right. It is it's something that's obviously 82 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: entered into our conversations on a regular basis and listen, 83 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: it's it's salacious. I mean, I'll have to admit it. 84 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: But you know, look, if don't, don't don't throw stones 85 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: at the glass house, because everything in true crime can 86 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 1: be silacious, all right, you just got to pick your poison, right, right, 87 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: and so but I think I think that what kicks 88 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: it up a notch is that it's how the dead 89 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 1: or treated, you know, after the event. You know that 90 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: someone would go to this extent because I got to 91 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: tell you if someone came up to me and made 92 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: the argument, they were like, well, they killed them, so 93 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: what you know, what would stop them from going to 94 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: the next step. I'm going to tell you what would 95 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: stop them from going to the next step. Because to 96 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: kill someone, just say, if you shot them, you executed them, 97 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: shot them in the back of the head. That's okay, Yeah, 98 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: you committed a homicide. Right. That's completely different than Hey, 99 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: where's Papa's carpenter saw out in the you know, out 100 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: in the shed. Let me go get that and let 101 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: me get a tarp, let me get all this other 102 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: coutremm that I need in order to you know, to 103 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: break down this body. Completely different set of circumstances here, 104 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: all right, So yeah, there is there is actually a 105 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: darker place you can go to. 106 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 2: Well, could we not blame this on television and video 107 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 2: games because that used to work, you know, we used 108 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 2: to hear that all the time when you and I 109 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 2: were growing up. It's like the reason these juvenile linquins 110 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 2: are doing all this is because of television and music 111 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: of movies is desensitizing them to all of these things. 112 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: And it's like, a man, you have opened my eyes 113 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: to the history of crazy murders and the infliction of pain. 114 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 2: I'll never forget what you showed me on the case 115 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 2: where the in Great Britain where the body was found 116 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: under a parking lot, remember, and oh yeah, and you 117 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 2: explained who was that Richard? Thank you God that park 118 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and when? And I will encourage you friends 119 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 2: to look for that one Richard. The third was an 120 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 2: episode if you haven't heard it, where Joe Scott. I 121 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 2: learned so much, you know, on that one episode because 122 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 2: it was stuff I'd never heard before, and it was evil. 123 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: I mean, it was just. 124 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: Well you know what they did to his body afterwards, 125 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: I think, and you know and that again you've got 126 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: all kinds of intrigues that are involved there, and you 127 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: know the crown, the crown that was eventually going to 128 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: go to Henry the Eight's father, you know, the tutors 129 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: after they invaded. But I got to tell you, and 130 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: it goes without saying. You know, evil has always existed, 131 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: It's just it exists in various degrees. And we can 132 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: kind of see that played out. You know. We we 133 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: had talked about, you know, the defensive dismemberment, and then 134 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: we've got this aggressive dismemberment that comes where you've got 135 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: an individual like Chander you know, Chandler Halderson that's ripping 136 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: his parents to pieces. And it's not he he killed 137 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: them obviously, but there was so much there's so much 138 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: psychopathology there about him being held accountable in his life 139 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: about son, you need to get a job. What are 140 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: you doing? He's lying to him. He building this thing out, 141 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: and you can kind of see how he treats the bodies, 142 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: you know, afterwards, of both his mama and his daddy, 143 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: you know, and you think about that, and you think about, well, what, 144 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: you know, what child is this? You know, you begin 145 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: to think about that, uh, and how he just kind 146 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: of rips him the shreds and trying to feign go 147 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: around feigning you know, well have you seen my mom 148 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: and dad? I can't find him anywhere. You've seen my mommy. 149 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: Year old idiot. 150 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's ridiculous, and you know you and 151 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: then you've got the I think this other element here 152 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 1: that we we had talked about the idea of offensive dismemberment, 153 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: and yes, it's offensive, but this is offensive in the 154 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: sense that it's not just it's not just the the killing, 155 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 1: it's the dismemberment and control over these individuals. You know, 156 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: there's that that connotation of dominance. Uh we I think 157 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: that should business is the yeah, yeah, you know, she's 158 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: she's a prime example because she was actually she had 159 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: dominated this poor kid. And I say kid, he's you know, grown, 160 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: grown man. But kind of the you know, PSTA resistance. 161 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: It's it's she's actually engaging with him throughout this entire 162 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: thing and dominating him to have sex, you know, even 163 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: going into the post mortem state. Though I don't think 164 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: that that's classic necrophilia necessarily, it's it's kind of playing 165 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: out this long stream of things because if you you know, 166 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: if you go back to to this young woman, the 167 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: mother of two, that we had talked about that on 168 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: the tender date and you know her the guy that 169 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: you know that goes and takes her out, you know, 170 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: they go to a ball game. Then afterwards he kills 171 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: her and begins to you know, cut her to pieces 172 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: in a bathtub in her own home with a limb saw. 173 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: And you know, again that's that's the idea of you know, 174 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: the some people come prepared I think, to do these 175 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: sorts of things. You know, you think about we had 176 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: talked yesterday about the black Dahlia. That person was prepared 177 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: that did the bisection on her. They had the right 178 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: tools in this case with a young mother out in Seattle. 179 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: The guy just used an instrument of opportunity. But I 180 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: can tell you this, we're still not done yet. We 181 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: still have two more categories to talk about, and trust me, 182 00:11:54,240 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: they are as horrific as the first three. You know, Dave, 183 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: Sometimes in when you work in forensics and you get 184 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: to meet people nationally, not just like in your own 185 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: little jurisdiction, because you know, we're kind of enslaved to 186 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: our jurisdiction that's where we work. You know, you don't 187 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: you don't get out. Don't get out of the house much, 188 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: all right. So if you go to a national meeting, 189 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: or if you interact with people, for let's say you're 190 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: put on a national task course like I was years ago, 191 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: sometimes you'll come across some of the most fascinating types 192 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: of people. And I guess it was in ninety four 193 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: ninety five I found myself eating a steakhouse with a 194 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: huge group of people in my field, and seated across 195 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: the table from me, Uh, was a guy that that 196 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: I think a lot of because he's brilliant. Off the charts. 197 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: I'll put to you this way. This guy is so smart. 198 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: He actually went got his MD because he was a 199 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: forensic pathologist. And then after the fact, he went back 200 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: and got a PhD focusing in medical history. Wow, and 201 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: began teaching at University of Michigan Medical School. And I 202 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: love you know, I love history and so but his 203 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: one of his big claims to fame was fact that 204 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 1: he's he's the guy that was tasked with doing all 205 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: of the examinations on Damer's victims. 206 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 2: Oh and he was. 207 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: He was the chief medical examiner for Milwaukee County. 208 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. 209 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so Uh. You know, when I sat there 210 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,359 Speaker 1: across the table from Jeff Jensen and I began to 211 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 1: listen to him talk about, you know, in that what 212 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: they found in that dirty, filthy apartment there in Milwaukee, which, 213 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: by the way, that building no longer exists for good reason. 214 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: You know, they tore that damn thing down, just like 215 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: they did with Gacy, and they tore his house down 216 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: to but you know that that residue still exists, and 217 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: certainly I think that probably with Domer there will always 218 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: be a stain of that. But you know, he he was, 219 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: He's actually an individual that is a necromaniac. Can you 220 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: explain that? 221 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: Because that term in and of itself tells me a lot, 222 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 2: But not being in the field, Okay, most of us 223 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 2: don't recognize. We know, necrophilia is having conjugal relations with 224 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 2: a dead body, correct. 225 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is. And there's a real dark side 226 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: obviously to this, because well they're they're they're absenting the 227 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, the the the life so that they 228 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: can take the body and do with the body what 229 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: they want. Okay, And here here's the real, you know, 230 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: kind of grotesque thing. There's so much to choose from, right, 231 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: it's like a buffet. They're still involved in this behavior, 232 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: even to the point where bodies will be in states 233 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: of decay and still engaging in this behavior, which is 234 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: one of the more fascinating things about again not necessarily 235 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: my my Baileywick, but you have to begin to talk 236 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: about things like the psychopathology here. You know, after you 237 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: have taken a body and essentially uh, you know, particulated 238 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: the body, you you have to make it sustainable or 239 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: maintain it to the point so that it will suit 240 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: your needs. It's the ultimate you know, use the term 241 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: I think in the first episode of objectification, you know, 242 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: where a body is actually taken and turned into turned 243 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: into a plaything, and that you know, that's what happened 244 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: with with Dahmer uh and all of these young men 245 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: that he essentially you know killed up there in that apartment. Uh, 246 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: you know, bits were everywhere, you know, and he he 247 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: actually uh kind of chronicled his activities. There were a 248 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: number of polaroid photographs that he had taken back in 249 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: the day of polaroids of states of the body. You know. 250 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: I remember one that really stands out. There's a young 251 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: man's in a bath tub and he's completely. You know, 252 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: there's no other way to put it. He's field dressed. 253 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: You know, he's split right down the middle. He's absent 254 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: of all of his organs. He's just laying there. Uh. 255 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: And then you know you think about the uh he 256 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: gets into this this sphere. It's it's like with with 257 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: with this necromaniac dismemberment, there is not just objectifying the body, 258 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: but there's an element with some of these cases that 259 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: goes to ingestion of bodies as well. You know where 260 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: you know with Domer uh, you know, he was famously 261 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: known as Cannibal and of course another another you know, 262 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 1: famous or infamous resident of Wisconsin is going to be 263 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: ed Geen and the same thing, you know, kind of 264 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: applied to him. Though he was not in the pure sense, 265 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: I think he was not necessarily a serial killer, but 266 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: he truly was a necrophile because he was a graver robber. 267 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: Now he did kill people, you know, but you know 268 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 1: with Dohmer, you know, Dahmer started stacking the bodies. Man, 269 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: he was going out and looking for living subjects, and 270 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: you know the whole idea of drilling holes into people's 271 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: brains and are into the skulls and injecting them with bleach, 272 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 1: because you want to create a zombie, you know, somebody 273 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: that you can put your arm around and hold on 274 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: to them, you know, like some kind of doll or something. 275 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 2: Do you think ed Geen we did an entire episode 276 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 2: on him, But do you think that ed Geen has 277 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: a lot more victims that we don't know about? 278 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? I think that. I think that that could be 279 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: a possibility. The only thing that for me, you know, 280 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: when you look where Plainfield, Wisconsin is still to this day, 281 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,239 Speaker 1: all right, and I urge anybody to check it out 282 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: on the map. It's not like he's living in the 283 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: greater Milwaukee area, okay, because and he you know, old 284 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: old Ed didn't get out of house much, okay, you know, 285 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: and we all know the story about his mom and 286 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: you know all the stuff that you know of course 287 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: that that book Psycho was based on. You know, where 288 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: he's got this dependency upon his mother. He didn't leave 289 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: her side much. And I would think that in a 290 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: population as small as Plainfield, in that little county up there, 291 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: you you would really notice if there were a lot 292 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: of people going missing, you know, that would be associated 293 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: with a serial event. Now, they did fun items of 294 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: clothing around the house. I think that there were see 295 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: if that's right, I think that there was young girls 296 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: clothing that was found in the house. And I don't 297 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: know that they were ever able to specifically tie that back, 298 00:19:54,560 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 1: you know, to to to anybody. Wo. Yeah, yeah. 299 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 2: Let me ask you something if you told me something 300 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 2: that I hadn't. This goes back a couple of years ago. 301 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 2: We were talking about Bundy and you mentioned Bundy going 302 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: back to the bodies as they were deteriorating and putting 303 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 2: make up on them and dressing them, and uh, that 304 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 2: was I thought that was one of those things that 305 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 2: was kind of added to the story to tell around 306 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 2: a campfire, you know, about the guy with the hook 307 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 2: for a hand, you know, and she that's what I 308 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,479 Speaker 2: thought that was. I didn't realize until you told me 309 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 2: that it was a real thing that you know, Bundy 310 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 2: was into necrophilia. I didn't know that. 311 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of these serial killers 312 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: are to a great degree, you know, and I know 313 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: that you know many people, many people will say that 314 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: the necromaniac dismemberment is something that is you hear the 315 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: most about it because it's so over the top even 316 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: in the realm of dismemberment. It's so over the top 317 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: and ors Hollywood has used it as a trope you 318 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: know throughout you know, you even look at the movie 319 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: seven you know, What's in the box? What's in the box? 320 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: And you know you see that, you think you think 321 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: to yourself, well, how how many other of these individuals, uh, 322 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: you know, have some kind of fascination like this. I 323 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: even think of like the gainsviol Ripper, where there was 324 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: a decapitation involved in that. I think that that was 325 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: you know, sexually motivated, but I don't know that that 326 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: was necessarily that probably doesn't fit into this category most 327 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: of the time. I believe that most of these people 328 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: have to have access to remains for a protracted period 329 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: of time, and I think that that does put them 330 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: into the realm of somebody that that would you know, 331 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: fancy themself a lover of the dead if you will. 332 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: You see this, uh played out with with Dahmer obviously, 333 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: and of course with Gain with the grave robbing. Not 334 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: all these people that rob graves though, have a sexual 335 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: proclivity for the dead. You know, there's there's we could 336 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: probably do an entire episode on on the idea of 337 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: why do people rob graves? Yeah, yeah, and you know 338 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: there's uh, there's one category in here that I think 339 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 1: and this kind of goes outside of the the the 340 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: necromaniac uh piece. We dave, you and I have covered 341 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: several of these cases now where people are dismembering bodies 342 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: these funeral homes and other people, and they're selling the 343 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: parts for medical experiments. All right, and that's a dismemberment, okay, 344 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: So you they see the body as having some kind 345 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: of utility financial, you know, utility, uh for for them. 346 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: I don't know what category that would necessarily fit into. 347 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: It's not aggressive, it's certainly not not defensive, it's not offensive. 348 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: So that might be an entirely different group that you 349 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: and I, you know, just sitting there chatting. I'm I'm 350 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: thinking about this. I feel like, you know, we're just 351 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: a couple of friends sitting here having coffee, you know, 352 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: and thinking about we may have discovered an entire different 353 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: category of people that have utility for human remains. And 354 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: you don't you hate to think of it that way, 355 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: but they're you know, they're breaking up bodies in order 356 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: to sell the parts. So and I don't I guess 357 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: that could be sexualized, but I don't think that, you know, 358 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: they're sexualizing the dead. They they're just trying to make 359 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: a buck real quick. So maybe there's oh, I got 360 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: it here, here's our term. We're going to use economic 361 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: economic dismemberment. How does that sound? 362 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: There? You go? Now, now you got me. Okay, now 363 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 2: you got me, nomic dismemberment. 364 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 1: I'm making any lord a mercy. Yeah. So you know 365 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: you've got you've got these these groups of people that 366 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 1: that are out there that engage in this behavior. It's 367 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: hard to know where the line is I think, uh 368 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: uh for for these people, uh, you know. And of 369 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: course if you look at gen Gen used used human remains. 370 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: They had utility for him. You know, he's making you know, 371 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: he's making utensils, you know, out of human remains. Uh. 372 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 1: You know, the skull cap, the calvarium itself was being 373 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: used as a bowl to either eat soup or cereal 374 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: out of. 375 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 2: Or do you think you were really using them? They 376 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 2: weren't just there for display for him. 377 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, That's that's an excellent question. Uh. There 378 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 1: was a chair I think that he had that famously 379 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: was tanned hide of humans. He had the you know, 380 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 1: I've heard it referred to as the nipple suit or 381 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 1: the nipple jacket that he had, that he had created 382 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: the this guy had. You know, if he wasn't so twisted, 383 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: he had a great life he could have made, you know, 384 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: I don't know, being a tanner or something somewhere, or 385 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: a furniture maker, but he chose to go down this 386 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: very very dark road. And it's just being in contact 387 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: with these elements and thinking about, you know, what in 388 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: the world would drive a person to do this. I 389 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: have no idea, but I do know that as dark 390 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: as this gets, there is one more group, and that 391 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: group has to do with I'll give you a hint messaging. 392 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: Some time ago, Dave, you and I had discussion about 393 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: it seems like methodologies of execution or something. An episode 394 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: that we did that was like that. And I want 395 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: to kind of take us back in time real quick, 396 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: because this has direct bearing on this next category of 397 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: just memory that we're going to talk about. Back when 398 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: I guess it was sixteen fifty No, it had to 399 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: be before that. Give me one quick second. Let me 400 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: let me reference this. It was sixteen forty nine, Charles, 401 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: the first of England. King Charles was taken into what's 402 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: called the Banqueting House, which is not too far away 403 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: from Parliament, and he was let out into a scaffle 404 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: and he had his head chopped off. Well, his head 405 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: was chopped off essentially the direction of several several people 406 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: that you know that found him guilty of a variety 407 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: of things, offenses against the English people. And but chief 408 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: among these was Oliver Cromwell. And Oliver Cromwell had led, 409 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: had led this kind of puritanical revolt that you know 410 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 1: where he goes through, and you know it it ended 411 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: in you know, they had a horrific civil war, civil 412 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: wars of course, or the most brutal wars that you 413 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: can possibly have, and even going over into Ireland and 414 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: killing people you know that were Catholic, and you know, 415 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: and going up to Scotland and killing people up there 416 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: because their religion and all this sort of thing. Well, 417 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: King Charles's son, King Charles the Second, was actually spirited 418 00:27:53,960 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: away and he lived in exile, and Oliver Cromwell the 419 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: Lord Protector of of Great Britain or England, and his 420 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 1: son did too. His sons uh succeeded him well. When 421 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: the son died. King Charles the Second came back and promptly. 422 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: What King Charles the Second did was they dug Oliver 423 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: Cromwell's body up. Wow. They took his corpse and cut 424 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: his head off, and I think they dipped it in tar, 425 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: and they put it on a spike and put it 426 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: out for public displays so that everybody everybody. 427 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 2: Could see it. They're gonna people are gonna walk by 428 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 2: and see this dismembered head on a stick and just 429 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 2: walk by and say, hey, Chuck, yea. 430 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: They may have or Charlie, I don't know. Uh. Uh, 431 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: you know, oh Charlie. Uh. And again you think about 432 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: that generation of people, you know, and that that was 433 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: certainly a stark reminder of what happens. Uh. And I'm 434 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: not saying that, you know, Charles first was an angel. 435 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: He certainly wasn't by any stretch of imagination. Cromwell was 436 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: pretty evil though, And they sent you know, they certainly 437 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: sent a message and they understood messaging back then, Dave, 438 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: It's no different than today. This still, this still goes on. 439 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: It has gone on for a long long time. I 440 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: think that this is something that is as old as time. 441 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: You know, we we see all the many how many 442 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: terrible horror movies have we seen over the years where 443 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: you'll see a skull sitting up on a stick, you know, 444 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: and automatically you see the skull and the stick. You know, 445 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: something's afoot here or something I had here, you know, 446 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: so you know, you know, take care of where you go. 447 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 2: Communication is dis memory. I love that title. Communication dismemberment. 448 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 2: You are communicating when somebody drives of your driveway and 449 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 2: they start seeing heads on you know. Yeah, you're you're 450 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 2: telling me something right there. I better have a really 451 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: good reason for being here. 452 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, if you think that the old the old 453 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: sign that says you're currently being watched, you're currently under 454 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: camera surveillance. If you think that works, let's grab a 455 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: couple of skulls and put them out here. Yeah. So 456 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: this this next category that that we're going to speak about, 457 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: and then it's a final category, is called communication dismemberment. 458 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: There are any number of things that have happened over 459 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: the years, you know, from and this is kind of interesting. 460 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: You people that have been kidnapped where and this does 461 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: happen where they will cut off a finger and they 462 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: will send it to people that's not just something that 463 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: you that you see in in the movies necessarily. Uh. 464 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: One of my favorite movies, of course, The Big Lebowski. 465 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: They send the pinky toe with the green paint green 466 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: toenail paint. But yeah, in all seriousness, you do send 467 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: a message. Uh. This is unfortunately, I think probably for 468 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: for us what we will really you know, know this 469 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: are it's we can reflect on. This is how it's 470 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: used in Latin America currently by many of the drug cartels. 471 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: There's a scene in I don't know if it's I 472 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: think it's one of Thecario movies where they're down south 473 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: of the border, and uh, Del Torrio's character, you know, 474 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: makes mention of the fact that and I might be 475 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: getting this mixed up. But when you see it, when 476 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: you see a body, they're not necessarily guilty of anything. 477 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: It's just a local that they're sending a message. And 478 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,719 Speaker 1: it will be children there too, that you know where 479 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: the bodies are dismemberment and put up for display, that 480 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: we control this area. 481 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 2: It makes sense, Joe. Some people need to be told 482 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 2: directly who's doing what to who. And I'm gonna be 483 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 2: honest if I'm a visitor, if I am in If 484 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 2: I'm in Central America on vacation and I'm tooling out 485 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: to my cabana and I see heads that are on 486 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 2: the end of a stick on my path, I'm going 487 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: to turn around and go back. I'm going to realize 488 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 2: this is not my vacation hotspot, and I will leave. Now. 489 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 2: For those living there, it means something totally different. It means, well, 490 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 2: your brother and sister are now dead, You're next. I mean, yeah, 491 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 2: that's what they're doing. They're communicating. And I'm not trying 492 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 2: to be flippant, but that's what they're doing. They're communicating 493 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 2: with body parts. 494 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think one of the more strike things that 495 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: you know, we covered. Do you remember we covered the 496 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: Lord of Mercy. What was the case? It was just 497 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: across a border where they were they had a huge 498 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: rendering down plant of where they were getting rid of bodies, 499 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: and people knew what that what that spot was being 500 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: utilized for. But I think that one of the cases 501 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: that really jumps out to mind, particularly the American mind 502 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: or other travelers from abroad that wind up, you know, 503 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: along the Yukatan coast, was this butchery that took place 504 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: in Cancun, you know, because so many people. It would 505 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: be hard to find somebody I think probably in my 506 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: friend group that hasn't been to Cancun cosmol because it's 507 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: an easy trip. It used to be really cheap, you know, 508 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: to go down there. David got to tell you, I 509 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know if if I'm going to 510 00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: be hopping on a plane to go down there because 511 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: it's so it seems to be so unstable. 512 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 2: Let me give you the opening line from a reporter 513 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 2: out of the area. It says this arrests made in 514 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 2: Cancun after five dismembered bodies found in taxi, three other 515 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 2: victims dumped in a shallow grave. Prosecutors said Monday they 516 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 2: have arrested six members of a drug gang in the 517 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 2: Mexican resort of Cancun that allegedly killed and hacked up 518 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 2: five people with a machete and dumped three other victims 519 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 2: in a shallow grave. Now they don't say it here, 520 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 2: but do you think that those bodies that were dumped 521 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 2: in a shallow grave were chopped up or were they 522 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 2: just killed and dismissed? 523 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: No, I don't think that there's I don't everything that 524 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: is done with these people has a meaning. To it. 525 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,720 Speaker 1: You know, you're sending a message like that, and again 526 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: this goes to mutilation. Yeah, we had you know, we 527 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: had talked about what, you know, what was done with 528 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: the black Dahlia. It wasn't just enough to bisect her, 529 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: but they cut a smile into her face. I don't 530 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 1: know what kind of message that's actually sending to somebody 531 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: that's some kind of psychosexual you know thing. This is 532 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: something different though, because it's like, you know, we all wonder. 533 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: I think I know that we all do. People will say, well, 534 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: what actually happens when we die? This is you know, 535 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: what happens to us, not just you know, on spiritual level, 536 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: what happens to our bodies? And what can you know? 537 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,760 Speaker 1: Because it's like, we're going to disfigure you so badly 538 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: that your family is not going to be able to 539 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: view you, or if they do, that's going to sink 540 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: in and it's going to be part and parcel of 541 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: the story that you leave behind. We opened this episode, 542 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: you know, talking about, you know, the stories that that 543 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: our bodies leave behind. But Dave, this is not just 544 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:56,280 Speaker 1: merely limited to Latin America, you know, Mexico, Central America, 545 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: those places. This is actually you know this whole, this whole, 546 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: I don't know. 547 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 2: You're trying to find a polite way to say something 548 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 2: that is not polite and has no lightweight. 549 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 1: Joe, there's really not this has visited our shores, now, okay, 550 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: because you just I mean just up. I think it 551 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: was in New York MS thirteen up there. We've got 552 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: you know, we've got these these cases. I think that 553 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: it was for uh, for four murders, you know that 554 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: took place at the hands of MS thirteen. And you 555 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: know it's not just them, it's it's their henchmen that 556 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: are involved in this in this as well. And this 557 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: is this is messaging. I remember, you know, talking to 558 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: a few people up up in New York. They are 559 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: in law enforcement in various areas of the state, and 560 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: they were expressing, expressing how simple life used to be 561 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: when they were just dealing with local gangs. And this 562 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: is a totally different animal, you know, they have to 563 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: deal with now with these international games that are in 564 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: this environment, and they do business in a completely different 565 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: way than we do in our American mindset. The messaging here, 566 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: you know, is that this is our territory, this is 567 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: what we do. This is our industry, this is our business, 568 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: and woe betide the individual that crosses our path, because 569 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 1: this is going to happen to them. You know, if 570 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 1: you're willing to do these sorts of things, if you're 571 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: willing to actually just destroy a body in death, there's 572 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,760 Speaker 1: not too many other things I think that you would 573 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: not be willing to do. Kill the innocent, and certainly 574 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: a scar community and scar families forever and ever with dismemberment. 575 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: Though it is a wide variety of rationales for people 576 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 1: that enter into to this practice, it's hard to believe 577 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: that people kind of move forward and jump off of 578 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,720 Speaker 1: this precipice into the great unknown, because until you're around 579 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: elements of a body that have had, as we say 580 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: in the more, had the cold steel put to them, 581 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: it's the like of something that most can even begin 582 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: to imagine. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body 583 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:33,240 Speaker 1: bags