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Speaker 1: Pushkin. We occasionally feel the emails and dms from Broken

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Speaker 1: Record listeners telling us who they'd like to hear on

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Speaker 1: the program. The past handful of years, one name has

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Speaker 1: come up more than others, Julian Lage. Now, if you're

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Speaker 1: not part of the Converted, not a member of one

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Speaker 1: of his devoted legions of fans, that may come as

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Speaker 1: a surprise to you. But if you get the chance

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Speaker 1: to spend some time with his music after listening to

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Speaker 1: this episode, I have just one word for you, welcome.

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Speaker 1: Julian's path and music has been as unique as his gifts.

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Speaker 1: He picked up the guitar at five years old and

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Speaker 1: quickly became obsessed with the instrument. That obsession and what

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Speaker 1: must have been some level of innate abilities, led to

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Speaker 1: his designation as a child prodigy, and as you'll hear,

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to play live on stage with Carlos Santana

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Speaker 1: at eight and live on a Grammy telecast at thirteen.

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Speaker 1: But it's his development as an artist over the course

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Speaker 1: of four albums and four years on Blue Note that's

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Speaker 1: most impressive to me. His album Speak to Me came

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Speaker 1: out earlier this year and is impressionistic in its beauty

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Speaker 1: rather than prodigious, often quiet rather than flashy. For the

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Speaker 1: last episode in our series celebrating the creative legacy of

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Speaker 1: Blue Note Records over eighty five years, Don Was and

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Speaker 1: I spoke with Julian Lage in front of a live

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Speaker 1: audience at the Blue Note Club in New York. We

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Speaker 1: talked about his upbringing as a prodigy, about writing and

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Speaker 1: recording his new album, and about his unique approach to

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Speaker 1: learning and playing guitar. Oh and he plays for us too.

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Speaker 1: This is Broken Record Liner Notes for the digital Age.

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Speaker 1: I'm justin Richman. Here's Don Was and myself in the

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Speaker 1: Blue Note in New York with Julian Lage. See the

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Speaker 1: full video version of this episode go to YouTube dot

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Speaker 1: com slash Broken Record Podcast.

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Speaker 2: How are you my friend?

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Speaker 3: Good?

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Speaker 1: So, thank you for doing this.

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Speaker 2: I mam my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Oh Man, your new record is gorgeous record for gorgeous.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate that it really is.

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Speaker 1: But I think Donn and I have talked about maybe

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Speaker 1: starting a little further back.

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Speaker 2: You say wherever you want, I'm all yours.

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Speaker 3: I watched a little bit of Jewels at eight Did

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Speaker 3: you really yea the whole the whole thing is not.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't I don't even know how to find it.

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Speaker 3: Their little little excerpts up there. Yeah, and you get

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Speaker 3: such a such a unique blend of real sweetness and

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Speaker 3: unbelievable talent. I don't know, have you. This is a

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Speaker 3: movie that was made when he was.

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Speaker 2: Years old old.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, someone shot? Who shot? Who made it?

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Speaker 2: It's a director named Mark Becker, and he was he

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Speaker 2: was at Stanford as a film student, and he had this.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of interesting because it wasn't it really wasn't

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Speaker 2: about me. He just wanted a movie about a young

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Speaker 2: musician or talented person who is straddling the worlds of

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Speaker 2: childhood and some sort of skill. And so he called

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Speaker 2: us to do it, and my parents and I said no,

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Speaker 2: absolutely not, you know, because I really keep in mind,

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Speaker 2: I'd only been playing guitar for two years. I wasn't

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Speaker 2: like an established musician. But he heard of me through some

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Speaker 2: channel who knows what, and came. He was very persistent,

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Speaker 2: and eventually we said, well, hey, this is clearly more

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Speaker 2: about you than about me, and that's kind of good

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Speaker 2: in a way. So that's why we proceeded. But yes,

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Speaker 2: there was this film made.

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Speaker 3: You're clearly a child prodigy, and there must be an

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Speaker 3: incredible set of expectations and pressures that go along with that.

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Speaker 2: Sure, absolutely, How.

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Speaker 3: Did you deal with that?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's so cool that you frame it that way,

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Speaker 2: because I think so often there's something blinding about really anybody,

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Speaker 2: but especially young people when they exhibit any propensity. Is that, yeah, there,

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Speaker 2: you get blinded by that. It's dazzling, and you don't

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Speaker 2: It's easy to forget that there's emotional infrastructure that needs

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Speaker 2: to be built and supported, and just to even understand

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Speaker 2: your own progress and understand your worth is not maybe

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Speaker 2: tied to your progress. And in some parts of life

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Speaker 2: you might be really advanced, other parts of life, you're

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Speaker 2: really at the beginning. All these considerations. I think they

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Speaker 2: reveal themselves, but it's easier to see that when you

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Speaker 2: have a supporting family or teachers or community. Now. At

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Speaker 2: the time, I remember getting a lot of attention, but

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Speaker 2: I never once felt overwhelmed by it, and I attribute

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Speaker 2: that to my parents. They were when my father was

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Speaker 2: a young boy, he was a bit of He was

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Speaker 2: a child prodigy as a visual artist, and he had

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Speaker 2: a one man show in southern California and we used

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Speaker 2: to have letters from you know, he'd send a portrait

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Speaker 2: to Jacqueline Kennedy and he'd get a letter back saying

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Speaker 2: thank you, or Norman Rockwell, and so I think he

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Speaker 2: saw and at certain points he got older, he decided

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Speaker 2: not to pursue art because I think that part of

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Speaker 2: it freaked him out, is what I imagine. So when

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Speaker 2: it came to me, I think there was already a

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Speaker 2: certain defensive barrier. No one could really get to me.

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Speaker 2: As a kid, I practiced a lot. I did my thing.

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Speaker 2: Every so often, I'd come up for air, but I

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Speaker 2: didn't I was unbothered by it. Now, as I became

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Speaker 2: more of an adult, I could see it in the

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Speaker 2: rear view beer a little differently. And I think what

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Speaker 2: helped me was that I didn't make a record under

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Speaker 2: my own name until I was about twenty one twenty two.

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Speaker 2: So from five until twenty two, I was just a

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Speaker 2: guy practicing guitar, playing people's bands, and it was great.

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Speaker 2: I think I needed that many years to just kind

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Speaker 2: of develop, and then when I hit it, I really

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Speaker 2: hit it strong. The last thing I'll say about that,

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Speaker 2: I know I've said it before in other forums, but

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Speaker 2: I'm of the generation right before the Internet being so

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Speaker 2: prevalent in young people's lives. So there was a documentary

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Speaker 2: made about me, but there was no YouTube, There was

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Speaker 2: no clips of me anywhere, so I was a secret.

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Speaker 2: What went out was very even in the documentary, I

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Speaker 2: don't actually play guitar in it, which is interesting. I

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Speaker 2: don't play. There's a moment where I play a scale,

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Speaker 2: but that's kind of wild to think of that that

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Speaker 2: I'm not playing, you know, I could that could be,

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Speaker 2: it could be all bogus for all anyone knows. But

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Speaker 2: thank god I didn't, you know, so I don't even

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Speaker 2: know what I sounded like at that age.

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Speaker 3: Really, you sounded awesome. You were playing.

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Speaker 2: For a second, that's all I knew that that was

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Speaker 2: the whole riff.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think that's one of one of the things

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Speaker 3: about child prodigies is that I've seen a lot of that,

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Speaker 3: you know, but very few make the transition into being

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Speaker 3: adult artists. Yeah, and I think that, you know, they

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Speaker 3: a lot of them can do an eagle soul perfectly,

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Speaker 3: you know, and that's amazing to see a young kid

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Speaker 3: do that. But I didn't sinse even when I heard

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Speaker 3: you whatever you did in the It didn't sound like

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Speaker 3: anybody else. You weren't copying Eric Clappin or anything. You had.

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Speaker 3: You had a voice, and I think that's you. That's

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Speaker 3: the rarest thing is development of your own voice.

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Speaker 2: Right well, I do, I do believe that, especially from

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Speaker 2: where I sit now. I was talking to my wife

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Speaker 2: Margaret about this just was it last night. But my father,

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Speaker 2: both my parents possessed this ability to be They're fans

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Speaker 2: of art and music and life right this, and so

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Speaker 2: they would talk about things I remember as a kid,

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Speaker 2: and they would analyze people, Uh not in the way of, Okay,

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Speaker 2: this person's great, you should be like them, but they

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Speaker 2: would say, this artist must think this way about themselves

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Speaker 2: in order to get this result that you're hearing, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean. It's very new. As a kid,

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Speaker 2: we would listen to Jim Hall or something just because

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Speaker 2: it was in the house that those records. I just

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Speaker 2: remember having those conversations with my father saying that, oh,

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Speaker 2: he must have a an acceptance of his own sense

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Speaker 2: of humor and phrasing, because that that's what I'm getting

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Speaker 2: from this. And I took it for granted, but I

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Speaker 2: realized it's really rare. Usually we kind of say, well,

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Speaker 2: we people become icons, and then it's very it becomes

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Speaker 2: almost impossible to develop a voice because you just aren't

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Speaker 2: that person. Your body doesn't work that way, your brain

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Speaker 2: doesn't work that way, your heart doesn't work that way.

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Speaker 2: You didn't have those parents, you know. But I think

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Speaker 2: everything was broken down is if you can understand your

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Speaker 2: relationship to yourself, you'll be you'll have access to what

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Speaker 2: you can offer most genuinely. And for that, I'm so

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Speaker 2: grateful and I think that is the root of kind

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Speaker 2: of developing a voice on an instrument. Also, I'm a

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Speaker 2: terrible mimic. I couldn't sound like anyone if I tried,

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Speaker 2: and I tried, I really remember no. I really my

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Speaker 2: wife on that. She's a brilliant. She can hear something,

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Speaker 2: repeat it, make it her own. I you know, I

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Speaker 2: really can't. And it's good. It's a good handicapped.

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Speaker 1: That tradition you're talking about though, of like there's icons

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Speaker 1: and then that you kind of steep yourself in them

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Speaker 1: and so to become like them and then maybe hopefully

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Speaker 1: for lucky, find your voice after. That'sicularly strong tradition in guitar.

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Speaker 1: Unless sure, young young people learning guitar and playing guitar.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god? Yeah, did you have moments early on

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Speaker 1: with that? I mean, were you did you have at

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Speaker 1: any point, even if it was a traditional, traditional, more

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Speaker 1: traditional trajectory of like I'm learning the blues now now transitioning.

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Speaker 2: Well, well, I consider myself, it's a great question. I

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Speaker 2: consider myself such a history nut, you know, or maybe

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Speaker 2: more accurately, I believe I find great support in knowing

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Speaker 2: that I'm far from the only person doing this. You know,

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Speaker 2: it was here before me. I'll be here when I'm dead,

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Speaker 2: So I'm just passing through, you know. So uh, yes,

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Speaker 2: I think there were times where I would investigate history,

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Speaker 2: you know. Okay, I really want to understand t Bone Walker,

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Speaker 2: and I really want to understand Muddy Waters. And I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to learn what they do, but I'm just gonna,

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Speaker 2: I guess, cultivate a certain reverence through listening, playing along

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Speaker 2: with records, same with jazz, same with different musicians. But

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Speaker 2: I was always under the belief I remember so vividly

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Speaker 2: thinking that here's my dream. I want us to be

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Speaker 2: right where I am with you right now. This truly

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Speaker 2: is my dream with all of you, and I want

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Speaker 2: to be myself, being a part of a creative project.

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Speaker 2: That's what I want, and I recognize that in order

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Speaker 2: to do that and feel comfortable, I need to deal

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Speaker 2: with a lot of things that are really no one

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Speaker 2: else's business. And that's that's scales, that's theory, that's the

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Speaker 2: understanding the guitar. I need to get this sort and

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Speaker 2: so that our time isn't spent kind of being distracted

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Speaker 2: by something I'm not I don't have together. That was

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Speaker 2: always my view, So I remember practicing and acquiring information

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Speaker 2: from that perspective. I got to acquire a lot so

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Speaker 2: that I can just be available emotionally, because we all

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Speaker 2: know that when you're just inundated with stuff you have

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Speaker 2: to learn, and like you're saying these towering icons over us,

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Speaker 2: you can't. You're fumbling to just get through. And that's

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Speaker 2: that can really plummet your sense of self, you know,

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Speaker 2: And I just I just need to nix that in

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Speaker 2: the butt. There are things that are knowable on the guitar,

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Speaker 2: and there's the good stuff is the unknowable stuff, but

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Speaker 2: there are noble things. I know where the notes are,

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Speaker 2: and I know how to hold a pick.

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Speaker 1: And can you explain what the noble versus unknowable show.

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Speaker 2: There's absolutely it's it's a little bit I feel silly

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Speaker 2: doing in front of all you guys. But you know,

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Speaker 2: even knowing where the pitches are on the instrument, I've

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Speaker 2: always felt like that's massively overlooked. Okay, you have, you

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Speaker 2: have all these seas there, and unless I change something

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Speaker 2: about the tuning or take a string off, those notes

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Speaker 2: will be there for me. Now what I've found, and

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Speaker 2: that's true of every all twelve pitches. What I've found, though,

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Speaker 2: is there are so many hurdles as guitar players we

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Speaker 2: get into. I was there for a long time that

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Speaker 2: are attributed to knowing thirty percent of the neck fifty.

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Speaker 2: But I know where three of the seas are. I don't.

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Speaker 2: I really shouldn't go up there, I should go over

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Speaker 2: here instead. That's a very simple example of kind of

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Speaker 2: doing your homework as far is just map it out,

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Speaker 2: not with a system. It takes a week, you know it,

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Speaker 2: it really does. Always I felt about it. Another example

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Speaker 2: of it, I've had a fastening. You're really interested in this, Yeah, well,

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Speaker 2: I I've been fascinated by this, this thing about mastery

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Speaker 2: on the guitar, right because we're all interested all of

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Speaker 2: the super you know, you see the people go wow,

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Speaker 2: they seem really good. They know something I don't. And

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Speaker 2: I feel that all the time with my heroes. However,

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Speaker 2: there are things. There's when you're good at something, there's

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Speaker 2: there's attributes that also kick in. Like if you're you

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Speaker 2: can use a fork and have a conversation, that means

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Speaker 2: you probably know how to use a fork. There are

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Speaker 2: these like okay, there's a bandwidth for other things. So

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Speaker 2: I remember, as a young person, younger person, I was

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Speaker 2: really thinking about that on the guitar. What despite all

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Speaker 2: the things I know, I don't know what's something I

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Speaker 2: can do that I just feel I could do in

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Speaker 2: my sleep. You can wake me up at three in

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Speaker 2: the morning with a fire extinguishure in my face. They do,

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Speaker 2: and I'd say, okay, I can do it. And a

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Speaker 2: really good example would be probably playing a C major chord.

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Speaker 2: You know the reason I say that, I probably learned

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Speaker 2: it really early on. And when I do it, I

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Speaker 2: can talk and do it. I can breathe and do it.

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Speaker 2: I can I don't feel I'm not really I feel good.

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Speaker 2: I feel good and I can do it. Now to me,

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Speaker 2: that's somewhat of a litmus test. That's a metric for

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Speaker 2: what it's like to have a mastery over a little

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Speaker 2: domain on the instrument. Now, the next thing would be

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Speaker 2: to tackle something that I have less of that experience with.

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Speaker 2: So if I would do that and then i'd work

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Speaker 2: on I don't know what, I'd work on something difficult,

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Speaker 2: and immediately I would just say, what has left me?

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Speaker 2: I can't really breathe when I'm doing it. I'm really anxious,

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of fumbling my tone, okay, dipped, Okay, so

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Speaker 2: let me go back to the reset. And I would

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Speaker 2: be ridiculous if you saw me, But I would keep

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Speaker 2: going back to that kind of touchstone. Wow, And if

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Speaker 2: you do it enough, you know how to For me,

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Speaker 2: at least, I felt like I was able to get

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Speaker 2: those difficult things to feel good in a way that

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Speaker 2: I had faith in. It's very hard to have faith

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Speaker 2: in that you're good at something if you if you're

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Speaker 2: not used to that good feeling. Do you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of interesting. So it's it's you knew

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Speaker 1: you had the hard thing when the hard thing kind of.

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Speaker 2: Felt felt like the thing that I considered good not

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Speaker 2: what someone else considered good feeling.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's funny to say that because I'm not

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Speaker 2: terribly stubborn, So it's not like it's not a This

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Speaker 2: isn't a protest, you know, I really don't have a

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Speaker 2: dog in the race. It just made sense to me,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's how my father looked at teaching

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Speaker 2: me guitar when I when I started too. It's all

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Speaker 2: from him, you know.

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Speaker 1: That's an incredible way to That's a really sophisticated way

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Speaker 1: of approaching guitar that my parents are deep.

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Speaker 2: But it's it's beautiful because I have seen it pop

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Speaker 2: up in others. You see this, you see that. It's

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Speaker 2: the same with our health. You have to know when

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Speaker 2: you felt good, to know when you don't feel good, right,

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Speaker 2: you have to kind of you have to. It's a

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Speaker 2: play of oppositions.

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Speaker 1: With a touchstone champ. I mean, what, for instance, what

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Speaker 1: always be the seed?

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Speaker 2: It could be anything sometimes, but you have to go

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Speaker 2: and go to something that you would It feels too

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Speaker 2: simple to be legitimate. This is one of my favorites.

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Speaker 2: You know, once it feels as once something difficult feels

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Speaker 2: as comfortable as just strong me a guitar open with nothing.

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Speaker 2: That's when we're kind of getting close to a sense

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Speaker 2: of feeling masterful. It's it's certainly been working in a

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Speaker 2: nice way, and I and maybe it'll change, you know.

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Speaker 3: Do you have variations, you know on different days, like

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Speaker 3: something seem harder.

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Speaker 2: Oh, one hundred, that's such a good point. Yeah, there,

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Speaker 2: there's I feel that in the realm of time, feel

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Speaker 2: like I noticed it. Depending on the season, you know,

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Speaker 2: a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, some things will just feel

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Speaker 2: not accessible. I can't settle into this beat, or I can,

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Speaker 2: but it's going to take me an hour and then

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Speaker 2: I can feel it. Other days they'll okay, there's I

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Speaker 2: can kind of access that physically too. I'm not a

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Speaker 2: big believer at this point, least in warming up on

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Speaker 2: the instrument, like it was a time where I did.

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Speaker 2: Speaking just from my own experience, I think there's kind

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Speaker 2: of a I like the way I sound when I'm

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Speaker 2: not warmed up. Sometimes yeah, I trip over my hand,

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Speaker 2: but I also have to deal with that like a

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Speaker 2: human being rather than just oh this feels great, I

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Speaker 2: can do anything I want. So I would say it

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Speaker 2: does change as far as the physical time feel, I

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Speaker 2: like a lot of playing, a lot of improvised music.

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Speaker 2: So usually the cures just start playing. You and I

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Speaker 2: have talked about this done before, about the kind of

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Speaker 2: the just the virtuous world of playing longer. You know,

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Speaker 2: if you're looking for I want to sit down, play

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Speaker 2: for five minutes and be amazing, that's great. But what

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Speaker 2: if you sit down for forty five minutes, an hour,

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Speaker 2: two hours, three hours and you don't stop. You will

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Speaker 2: hit walls and you also, my experience, resolve them musically

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Speaker 2: rather than divorcing them from the act of playing. And

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Speaker 2: so usually when something's off, I just play more.

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Speaker 1: I've heard that you'll play like ninety minutes sometimes over

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Speaker 1: just the same changes.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, Oh you get so it's kind of yeah, sick

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Speaker 2: of yourself, and then you get happy, and then you

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Speaker 2: get it. It's a journey, you know. But long form

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Speaker 2: playing has been become a big that's a big part

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Speaker 2: of my life. And if I don't have the time

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Speaker 2: for that lately, I'm okay, just not playing. Do something

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Speaker 2: else long form, do you know, Just be alive long

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Speaker 2: for you know, but just try not to break every

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Speaker 2: part of life into these little kind of life hacker moments.

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Speaker 3: There's a great line in Jewels that day where your

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Speaker 3: dad's talking and he's talking about people saying, well, don't

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Speaker 3: make him practice all the time. He said, no, I

349
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Speaker 3: try to make him stop.

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Speaker 2: It was true, like you have to really stop. It's

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Speaker 2: been eight hours, you know. It's funny like that.

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Speaker 3: Though.

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Speaker 2: I feel lucky because I teach a lot, not much lately,

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Speaker 2: but I've taught a lot culturally speak. There is so

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Speaker 2: much pressure nowadays in the educational system that I remember

356
00:18:12,876 --> 00:18:16,556
Speaker 2: even as a kid, it wasn't the same. And I

357
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Speaker 2: really have looked back on it. Play all day because

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Speaker 2: it's fun was kind of okay, but I've noticed that

359
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Speaker 2: rhetoric is not the same. And if you see young, well,

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Speaker 2: that's great that you can play, but you can't just play.

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Speaker 2: You've got to be working on something and you have

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Speaker 2: to that has to be something that you can show

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Speaker 2: to other people, so we can tell you if you're

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Speaker 2: getting better or not. I somehow avoided all of that. Yeah,

365
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Speaker 2: that's good, So I feel lucky.

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Speaker 3: After fare in school, you went to berkeleye age.

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Speaker 2: I went to Berkeley College of Music. I loved it. Well,

368
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Speaker 2: at first I didn't, and then I loved it. You know,

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Speaker 2: as a teenager, I started playing with Gary Burton and.

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Speaker 3: Before you were at before, yeah, before.

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Speaker 2: I was there, so I but Gary used to be

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Speaker 2: you know, the he ran that school for so many

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Speaker 2: years and he's a part of it for fifty years.

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Speaker 2: So it wasn't a big leap to say, well, when

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Speaker 2: I get old enough, I want to go there. Gary's

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Speaker 2: kind of my guy. So I went and I did

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Speaker 2: the thing, Okay, go up to the class whatever, and

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Speaker 2: I really didn't like it. I was kind of miserable

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Speaker 2: for the first semester, and by no one's doing other

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Speaker 2: than my own. I realized that I'd gone from being

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Speaker 2: in this musical space to music school, which we all

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Speaker 2: those who are familiar with any kind of art school,

383
00:19:26,276 --> 00:19:30,036
Speaker 2: they kind of they have to make it such that

384
00:19:30,116 --> 00:19:33,356
Speaker 2: you're that everyone has accessed information. So you go from

385
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Speaker 2: being the special person in your community, you know, to

386
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Speaker 2: being one of thousands. You go from being the person

387
00:19:38,996 --> 00:19:41,556
Speaker 2: your bedroomho's learning songs because you're just fascinated too. I've

388
00:19:41,556 --> 00:19:43,476
Speaker 2: got homework now and I haven't touched the guitar in

389
00:19:43,516 --> 00:19:46,836
Speaker 2: a month. I thought something's off, you know, So I

390
00:19:46,916 --> 00:19:48,836
Speaker 2: called the president of the school, Roger Brown, who I

391
00:19:48,876 --> 00:19:51,436
Speaker 2: really adore, right to the top. I just said, look,

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Speaker 2: I don't want always say anyone. Sime. You're so so

393
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Speaker 2: gracious to let me be here, but I'm going to

394
00:19:55,956 --> 00:19:57,316
Speaker 2: tell you this isn't for me, and I'm going to

395
00:19:57,556 --> 00:20:00,716
Speaker 2: move on. And he he I left that at a voicemail.

396
00:20:02,116 --> 00:20:04,836
Speaker 2: I realized now he called me back, a'mbout tim and

397
00:20:04,916 --> 00:20:06,836
Speaker 2: to say he said, Julian Jillie, what is up? But

398
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Speaker 2: I said, well, here's the deal. I know if I

399
00:20:09,316 --> 00:20:11,796
Speaker 2: I can cultivate what I'm doing already, there's jazz guitar

400
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Speaker 2: pass there's all I want to get my butt kicked

401
00:20:14,756 --> 00:20:16,796
Speaker 2: with what I don't know? He said, what is it?

402
00:20:16,796 --> 00:20:21,956
Speaker 2: I said, classical composition, classical piano, really deeply get into counterpoint,

403
00:20:21,956 --> 00:20:25,596
Speaker 2: and study with Mick Goodrick, you know, the master. And

404
00:20:25,636 --> 00:20:29,316
Speaker 2: he said, we will figure this out. And I ostensibly

405
00:20:29,356 --> 00:20:32,396
Speaker 2: became wrapped up in something they were rebuilding, which is

406
00:20:32,476 --> 00:20:35,236
Speaker 2: what they call an artist diploma program. Juilliard's got a

407
00:20:35,276 --> 00:20:36,956
Speaker 2: lot of schools have them. It's kind of like a

408
00:20:36,956 --> 00:20:40,196
Speaker 2: master's degree. And he said, we'll frame it academically so

409
00:20:40,316 --> 00:20:42,356
Speaker 2: that your last, you know, ten years of touring with

410
00:20:42,396 --> 00:20:45,636
Speaker 2: Gary Burton. We'll consider that like an undergrad now, but

411
00:20:45,716 --> 00:20:47,556
Speaker 2: you have to tell us what you want to get

412
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Speaker 2: out of this. And I said, I want to make

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Speaker 2: my first record. That's my final and I need about

414
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Speaker 2: three years to study before I want to make the record.

415
00:20:54,916 --> 00:20:56,916
Speaker 2: And it's just, you know, it's all the stuff is low.

416
00:20:56,996 --> 00:20:59,236
Speaker 2: It's not life or death. And they also had an

417
00:20:59,236 --> 00:21:01,956
Speaker 2: open mind, but I took it very seriously. I studied

418
00:21:01,956 --> 00:21:04,156
Speaker 2: with them. I did everything we said I would do,

419
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Speaker 2: including making my first record sounding point Wow. And I

420
00:21:08,076 --> 00:21:11,796
Speaker 2: loved it. And there were other students who I hipped

421
00:21:11,836 --> 00:21:14,236
Speaker 2: to this program because they were coming in that and

422
00:21:14,276 --> 00:21:16,556
Speaker 2: they needed something similar, so it was a good thing

423
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Speaker 2: for all. I thought it was really cool, really cool.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from Don was and

425
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Speaker 1: Me in conversation with Julian lash We're back with Julian Lage.

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Speaker 1: How did you connect with Gary?

427
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Speaker 2: He saw me on the Grammys. I was playing on

428
00:21:35,476 --> 00:21:38,596
Speaker 2: this telecast back in two thousand and two thousand and one,

429
00:21:38,676 --> 00:21:41,716
Speaker 2: and they had this moment took thirty seconds of kids

430
00:21:41,756 --> 00:21:43,996
Speaker 2: playing jazz, you know, and I was one of the kids.

431
00:21:44,036 --> 00:21:46,876
Speaker 2: Similar to the documentary we spoke of earlier. I was

432
00:21:46,916 --> 00:21:49,756
Speaker 2: invited and said no because I had no interest in it,

433
00:21:49,756 --> 00:21:52,996
Speaker 2: and they were really persistent, and I said, okay, okay,

434
00:21:53,076 --> 00:21:55,396
Speaker 2: so do the thing. And I got a letter maybe

435
00:21:55,396 --> 00:21:57,596
Speaker 2: a week after it was televised from Gary and he said,

436
00:21:57,676 --> 00:21:59,956
Speaker 2: my name is Gary Burton. I was in the audience

437
00:21:59,996 --> 00:22:03,556
Speaker 2: that night. I've got a gig at the TED conference

438
00:22:03,836 --> 00:22:06,516
Speaker 2: in six months. And back in those days, it was

439
00:22:06,516 --> 00:22:08,116
Speaker 2: always it was not what it's become. It was a

440
00:22:08,116 --> 00:22:12,076
Speaker 2: little different. It was in Monterey, California, in this hotel

441
00:22:12,276 --> 00:22:15,116
Speaker 2: and it was small and very still very exclusive, and

442
00:22:15,196 --> 00:22:19,556
Speaker 2: they hired Gary to do a thing about intergenerational something

443
00:22:19,636 --> 00:22:21,916
Speaker 2: or other and I was the younger generation, so he said,

444
00:22:21,956 --> 00:22:23,956
Speaker 2: you want to be my younger generation for this. I

445
00:22:24,036 --> 00:22:27,956
Speaker 2: was sure, you know, and it went so well that

446
00:22:27,996 --> 00:22:30,556
Speaker 2: he asked me to then do a cruise on the

447
00:22:30,636 --> 00:22:32,596
Speaker 2: Queen Elizabeth too, you know, the one from New York

448
00:22:32,636 --> 00:22:35,036
Speaker 2: to London, which had it was great they would have

449
00:22:35,036 --> 00:22:36,236
Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't know if they still do

450
00:22:36,236 --> 00:22:38,636
Speaker 2: it with these jazz festivals. And it was Gary's band,

451
00:22:38,676 --> 00:22:44,076
Speaker 2: Tommy Flanagan's trio, Bud Shank. It was fabulous. Terrible experience

452
00:22:44,076 --> 00:22:46,996
Speaker 2: on the cruise because we hit a storm, but like

453
00:22:47,116 --> 00:22:49,636
Speaker 2: fifty foot seas and a piano was rolling off the stage.

454
00:22:49,636 --> 00:22:52,596
Speaker 2: I'm talking bad. We got through it. Here we are,

455
00:22:52,836 --> 00:22:55,156
Speaker 2: but but it went so well that Gary Gary was

456
00:22:55,196 --> 00:22:57,356
Speaker 2: basically laying out these CRUs you know, if this goes well,

457
00:22:57,396 --> 00:22:58,796
Speaker 2: then I'll ask you to do this if this goes well.

458
00:22:59,036 --> 00:23:01,156
Speaker 2: And then after that he basically we should make a record,

459
00:23:01,196 --> 00:23:04,116
Speaker 2: and then that started the wow about a decade straight

460
00:23:04,156 --> 00:23:07,436
Speaker 2: of working together. So you made a Gary's record, I

461
00:23:07,516 --> 00:23:09,596
Speaker 2: mean Gary's record shortly after that, which was I forget

462
00:23:09,596 --> 00:23:11,156
Speaker 2: the name of it, but it was with with Makoto

463
00:23:11,236 --> 00:23:14,916
Speaker 2: Zone and James Genis and Clarence.

464
00:23:15,156 --> 00:23:16,916
Speaker 3: Pan it was. It was great.

465
00:23:18,116 --> 00:23:20,356
Speaker 2: And then he started some of this Generation's band, which

466
00:23:20,396 --> 00:23:22,756
Speaker 2: is some other younger musicians, and then we did another

467
00:23:22,916 --> 00:23:26,596
Speaker 2: few records. It was so impactful. I mean, Gary Burton

468
00:23:26,676 --> 00:23:27,916
Speaker 2: is is the maestro.

469
00:23:28,036 --> 00:23:29,836
Speaker 1: How surreal were these more? I mean not only like

470
00:23:30,796 --> 00:23:32,876
Speaker 1: you know, doing a jazz festival and the Queen Elizabeth

471
00:23:32,876 --> 00:23:35,836
Speaker 1: too joining Gary Burne's band, and but then you know,

472
00:23:36,236 --> 00:23:39,716
Speaker 1: playing like you skipped over, but just being invited down

473
00:23:39,756 --> 00:23:42,436
Speaker 1: to Grammy's telecast at that age must have been insane.

474
00:23:42,476 --> 00:23:44,836
Speaker 1: And I saw an amazing clip of you at nine

475
00:23:45,116 --> 00:23:50,236
Speaker 1: oh playing Maggot Brain with Carlo. It was wild that

476
00:23:50,396 --> 00:23:52,636
Speaker 1: not only you're playing with Carlos Santana at that age,

477
00:23:52,676 --> 00:23:53,956
Speaker 1: but then you're playing Maggot Brain.

478
00:23:54,076 --> 00:23:57,996
Speaker 3: Yeah, like amazing.

479
00:23:58,036 --> 00:24:01,036
Speaker 1: They're not like, you know, you're kind, I appreciate corny,

480
00:24:01,316 --> 00:24:03,876
Speaker 1: They're like good, You're like, whoa, I appreciate that.

481
00:24:03,996 --> 00:24:06,196
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't I don't know the first

482
00:24:06,396 --> 00:24:08,116
Speaker 2: I don't know how any of this. I don't know,

483
00:24:08,476 --> 00:24:10,996
Speaker 2: but I I I have to say I sound so.

484
00:24:11,196 --> 00:24:13,596
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel silly saying this, but I'm saying

485
00:24:13,676 --> 00:24:16,996
Speaker 2: unless I do believe those were different times, and I

486
00:24:16,996 --> 00:24:19,676
Speaker 2: think there's a different version of it now. But the

487
00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:22,316
Speaker 2: Santana thing, my father worked at Fog City Diner in

488
00:24:22,316 --> 00:24:25,556
Speaker 2: San Francisco, and he had someone came in who is

489
00:24:25,596 --> 00:24:28,716
Speaker 2: using friends with and he said, I know Santana and

490
00:24:28,876 --> 00:24:31,236
Speaker 2: I heard your son's playing guitar. They're friends. My dad

491
00:24:31,276 --> 00:24:33,516
Speaker 2: said yeah, and he said, well he's Santana's playing at

492
00:24:33,516 --> 00:24:37,596
Speaker 2: the wherever in two weeks. You should just show up.

493
00:24:37,636 --> 00:24:39,996
Speaker 2: You know, they usually usually they get there by two pm.

494
00:24:40,396 --> 00:24:42,316
Speaker 2: That's all the information we had. So we got in

495
00:24:42,316 --> 00:24:43,676
Speaker 2: the car and we drove there and showed up at

496
00:24:43,676 --> 00:24:44,076
Speaker 2: two pm.

497
00:24:44,156 --> 00:24:46,436
Speaker 1: Were you worried that you're gonna bell.

498
00:24:46,676 --> 00:24:47,956
Speaker 2: The funny thing about it this is would have been

499
00:24:47,956 --> 00:24:51,076
Speaker 2: when I was seven and we drove, we pull up,

500
00:24:51,676 --> 00:24:54,676
Speaker 2: go back, stay okay. This is also before nine to

501
00:24:54,716 --> 00:24:56,956
Speaker 2: eleven too. I mean there there's big cultural things. Were

502
00:24:56,996 --> 00:24:59,956
Speaker 2: just a little no, you really go Okay, that's where's

503
00:24:59,996 --> 00:25:02,596
Speaker 2: where's Carlos? He's in that room. Okay, So my parents

504
00:25:02,636 --> 00:25:04,116
Speaker 2: I knock on the door and he said, oh, you're

505
00:25:04,156 --> 00:25:06,796
Speaker 2: the kid I heard about. Come in and we sat

506
00:25:06,836 --> 00:25:10,156
Speaker 2: and we played. And that night he that was the

507
00:25:10,236 --> 00:25:12,636
Speaker 2: night where it was Jeff Beck and him, we're doing

508
00:25:12,636 --> 00:25:15,596
Speaker 2: this tour, but check this out. The best part of

509
00:25:15,636 --> 00:25:16,876
Speaker 2: that to me was he said, do you want to

510
00:25:16,876 --> 00:25:21,876
Speaker 2: play tonight? And my parents and I just kind of

511
00:25:21,916 --> 00:25:24,996
Speaker 2: intuitively you looked at each other. No, I didn't come

512
00:25:25,036 --> 00:25:27,076
Speaker 2: to I didn't come to play in front of twenty

513
00:25:27,076 --> 00:25:29,476
Speaker 2: thousand people. I came to meet the master. That that's

514
00:25:29,876 --> 00:25:32,596
Speaker 2: that's the point. Yeah, And he said, well, no worries,

515
00:25:32,796 --> 00:25:35,236
Speaker 2: we'll enjoy the show. And if you're we come here

516
00:25:35,276 --> 00:25:37,916
Speaker 2: every year, so when we come back, you should just

517
00:25:37,996 --> 00:25:42,076
Speaker 2: come again and bring guitar. So great. So, with no communication,

518
00:25:42,156 --> 00:25:44,156
Speaker 2: a year later, almost to the date, we drove up,

519
00:25:44,236 --> 00:25:46,996
Speaker 2: got there too, knocked on the door, you know, he said,

520
00:25:46,996 --> 00:25:48,436
Speaker 2: oh you Pat, you came. Do you have a guitar

521
00:25:48,516 --> 00:25:48,796
Speaker 2: this time?

522
00:25:48,876 --> 00:25:49,076
Speaker 3: Yeah?

523
00:25:49,076 --> 00:25:50,476
Speaker 2: Okay, And then that's the video you saw.

524
00:25:50,636 --> 00:25:50,956
Speaker 3: Wow.

525
00:25:51,036 --> 00:25:53,956
Speaker 2: But so there and it was surreal. But also I

526
00:25:54,156 --> 00:25:56,796
Speaker 2: don't think I was in an environment that hyped anything up.

527
00:25:57,156 --> 00:26:01,556
Speaker 2: It also didn't push me down. And I've known people

528
00:26:01,596 --> 00:26:03,636
Speaker 2: who have that figure in their life who says, you know,

529
00:26:03,876 --> 00:26:06,596
Speaker 2: don't get too comfortable, kid, this is gonna you still

530
00:26:06,596 --> 00:26:08,436
Speaker 2: got to prepare. There was none of that good cop,

531
00:26:08,516 --> 00:26:12,276
Speaker 2: bad cop mind stuff. It was religious, just like I

532
00:26:12,316 --> 00:26:15,436
Speaker 2: don't know, just respond, be present and music at the

533
00:26:15,516 --> 00:26:17,036
Speaker 2: end of the day, as we all know, is a

534
00:26:17,076 --> 00:26:19,676
Speaker 2: healing force of the universe. It's it's the sub what

535
00:26:19,756 --> 00:26:22,996
Speaker 2: we're talking about is very generous, it's very loving, it's

536
00:26:23,036 --> 00:26:25,596
Speaker 2: very supportive, and it protects us. I believe that to myself.

537
00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:30,156
Speaker 2: But that's why I looked to I mean, these cats.

538
00:26:30,196 --> 00:26:32,356
Speaker 2: And as a young person I was, I was around

539
00:26:32,356 --> 00:26:34,716
Speaker 2: people who were talking about what was behind the door,

540
00:26:34,876 --> 00:26:37,516
Speaker 2: you know, being around Higgins, being around Billy Hart, being

541
00:26:37,556 --> 00:26:41,036
Speaker 2: around Charles Lloyd. I mean, it was I I knew

542
00:26:41,076 --> 00:26:43,956
Speaker 2: that it wasn't just it wasn't your hands moving it's

543
00:26:43,956 --> 00:26:48,076
Speaker 2: this other thing, and it's it's it's for for all

544
00:26:48,116 --> 00:26:50,556
Speaker 2: of us. It's not just for the for few, you know,

545
00:26:50,636 --> 00:26:53,796
Speaker 2: it's it's it's here to make us happy and healthier.

546
00:26:53,836 --> 00:26:57,036
Speaker 2: So I would say that's a backdrop that probably informs

547
00:26:57,076 --> 00:26:59,636
Speaker 2: all of this. So the Grammys, it is what it was, wonderful,

548
00:26:59,756 --> 00:27:02,036
Speaker 2: is fine. It got us here today, and that's kind

549
00:27:02,036 --> 00:27:04,556
Speaker 2: of all I can say.

550
00:27:04,596 --> 00:27:07,276
Speaker 3: If you do all that when you're younger, does it

551
00:27:07,316 --> 00:27:09,836
Speaker 3: make you a little more fearless as an adult?

552
00:27:10,556 --> 00:27:12,596
Speaker 2: I think it can. I think there's two ways you

553
00:27:12,636 --> 00:27:16,356
Speaker 2: can go. In my case, I think it it let

554
00:27:16,356 --> 00:27:17,876
Speaker 2: the air out of the tire in a good way

555
00:27:17,996 --> 00:27:21,436
Speaker 2: to say, you know, you can. There's varying degrees of success.

556
00:27:21,556 --> 00:27:23,476
Speaker 2: As you look at it, you see, you know, but

557
00:27:23,556 --> 00:27:24,636
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, if you're in a

558
00:27:24,716 --> 00:27:26,916
Speaker 2: room with people sharing in the same thing, you're all

559
00:27:26,996 --> 00:27:28,996
Speaker 2: kind of equals in that moment. And I think it

560
00:27:29,036 --> 00:27:32,356
Speaker 2: cut down on a lot of the intimidation of I

561
00:27:32,356 --> 00:27:34,316
Speaker 2: should I can't do that, or I can't play that venue,

562
00:27:34,316 --> 00:27:36,156
Speaker 2: I shouldn't be on the stage because I have no experience.

563
00:27:37,716 --> 00:27:39,676
Speaker 2: So I do think there's been that's carried me through

564
00:27:40,116 --> 00:27:42,756
Speaker 2: say you know, Hey, we're all. We're all just we're

565
00:27:42,796 --> 00:27:45,316
Speaker 2: just all kind of circulating in the same world. Now

566
00:27:45,356 --> 00:27:47,636
Speaker 2: I've seen it go the other way, where when you're

567
00:27:47,676 --> 00:27:49,116
Speaker 2: around at a young age, you feel like if you

568
00:27:49,156 --> 00:27:52,316
Speaker 2: do anything that's not the Grammys, that's not major, if

569
00:27:52,356 --> 00:27:54,876
Speaker 2: it doesn't garner a ton of attention, then you failed.

570
00:27:56,636 --> 00:27:59,916
Speaker 2: I don't believe that for myself, but I feel for

571
00:27:59,956 --> 00:28:03,036
Speaker 2: those who do, because that's you must feel like, Hey,

572
00:28:03,076 --> 00:28:05,276
Speaker 2: i was playing for twenty thousand people. Now I'm playing

573
00:28:05,276 --> 00:28:06,716
Speaker 2: for one hundred peop trying to get my band off

574
00:28:06,716 --> 00:28:08,876
Speaker 2: the ground, and no one cares because they don't know

575
00:28:08,956 --> 00:28:12,516
Speaker 2: theyn't heard it yet. That's that's a that's unsettling.

576
00:28:12,716 --> 00:28:15,396
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but worth it. You know.

577
00:28:15,676 --> 00:28:18,076
Speaker 1: Another thing that strikes me is that guitar playing can

578
00:28:18,076 --> 00:28:21,596
Speaker 1: be really solitary pursuit, so very solitary, to the point

579
00:28:21,636 --> 00:28:24,956
Speaker 1: where you know it can be you cannot know how

580
00:28:24,956 --> 00:28:28,316
Speaker 1: to play with other people? Yeah as well, yes, did

581
00:28:28,476 --> 00:28:30,596
Speaker 1: were you playing with other people? Because I mean that's

582
00:28:30,596 --> 00:28:33,996
Speaker 1: something you do also very well? It was it a

583
00:28:34,036 --> 00:28:36,276
Speaker 1: thing of us keeping it to yourself and in your room,

584
00:28:37,356 --> 00:28:38,316
Speaker 1: but play.

585
00:28:38,116 --> 00:28:40,636
Speaker 2: With I would look for every drummer in my community

586
00:28:40,676 --> 00:28:43,556
Speaker 2: who I knew was into jazz and play duets with them. Okay,

587
00:28:43,596 --> 00:28:46,116
Speaker 2: then all the bass players won't play duets with them.

588
00:28:46,156 --> 00:28:48,636
Speaker 2: Every gig I could get, playing restaurant gigs, play with

589
00:28:48,636 --> 00:28:52,676
Speaker 2: my teacher. My teacher, Randy Vincent was hugely influential my playing.

590
00:28:53,356 --> 00:28:56,476
Speaker 2: And Randy and I study with him from when I

591
00:28:56,476 --> 00:28:58,116
Speaker 2: was about eight years old, so I was about twelve,

592
00:28:58,196 --> 00:29:02,476
Speaker 2: so five years and I had two three hour lessons

593
00:29:02,476 --> 00:29:05,476
Speaker 2: a week for five years, and so right that was

594
00:29:05,516 --> 00:29:07,436
Speaker 2: just like sit down and a lot of that was

595
00:29:07,476 --> 00:29:12,636
Speaker 2: just playing duets. And as we know, playing duets is

596
00:29:12,676 --> 00:29:15,076
Speaker 2: it's the best training because it really is a conversation

597
00:29:15,316 --> 00:29:18,436
Speaker 2: and it's about supporting the other person, and you know,

598
00:29:18,956 --> 00:29:22,076
Speaker 2: can I can I be there for this person who

599
00:29:22,156 --> 00:29:24,236
Speaker 2: I revere in respect? It's it's it's it's kind of

600
00:29:24,316 --> 00:29:26,916
Speaker 2: terrifying but wonderful. So I do come from a tradition

601
00:29:26,956 --> 00:29:29,796
Speaker 2: of learning, which is very experiential. You play with people,

602
00:29:30,196 --> 00:29:32,316
Speaker 2: you find out what didn't work, you go home, you

603
00:29:32,676 --> 00:29:34,516
Speaker 2: take your vitamins, and you come back. You know, that's

604
00:29:34,596 --> 00:29:36,636
Speaker 2: kind of the deal. But I played so much with drummer.

605
00:29:36,676 --> 00:29:39,516
Speaker 2: I was always looking for that, like I understood that

606
00:29:39,796 --> 00:29:43,116
Speaker 2: I wanted to be a guitar player that was empathetic

607
00:29:43,196 --> 00:29:45,876
Speaker 2: to other instruments because just because I can do it

608
00:29:45,916 --> 00:29:48,596
Speaker 2: doesn't mean it's with the it's in the best interest

609
00:29:48,636 --> 00:29:51,956
Speaker 2: of the band, right and everybody else has to deal

610
00:29:51,996 --> 00:29:54,916
Speaker 2: with the same thing too. It's been somehow guitar education.

611
00:29:54,996 --> 00:29:56,956
Speaker 2: You have to kind of be reminded.

612
00:29:56,476 --> 00:29:59,756
Speaker 1: Extra the culture around it.

613
00:29:59,836 --> 00:30:01,796
Speaker 2: There's a culture around it that is a little bit

614
00:30:01,836 --> 00:30:03,796
Speaker 2: of this top dog. Everyone caters to that, and we

615
00:30:03,836 --> 00:30:05,836
Speaker 2: all know that's not really the case, and the best

616
00:30:05,836 --> 00:30:08,396
Speaker 2: players do it do it all. You know. We were

617
00:30:08,436 --> 00:30:11,476
Speaker 2: talking about Richards earlier, and it's like Keith has that

618
00:30:11,556 --> 00:30:17,156
Speaker 2: thing where there's nothing more compelling than watching him and

619
00:30:17,236 --> 00:30:19,876
Speaker 2: hearing him play. And when you hear him play, everyone

620
00:30:19,876 --> 00:30:22,036
Speaker 2: else sounds better while he's playing, and that that's the

621
00:30:22,076 --> 00:30:24,796
Speaker 2: magic trick that I'm obsessed with. How do you lift

622
00:30:24,836 --> 00:30:27,316
Speaker 2: the band? That's what Duke Ellington was doing, That's what

623
00:30:27,396 --> 00:30:29,836
Speaker 2: count basically, that's what everyone's really doing to me.

624
00:30:30,156 --> 00:30:32,196
Speaker 1: Well, and I feel like, so on your new record

625
00:30:32,236 --> 00:30:34,436
Speaker 1: Speak to Me that I alluded to earlier, how great

626
00:30:34,476 --> 00:30:40,156
Speaker 1: it was. There's songs on there like Omission, Much of Us,

627
00:30:41,956 --> 00:30:44,596
Speaker 1: like Pure Groove. Yeah, it is almost Keith Richard's style,

628
00:30:44,636 --> 00:30:45,676
Speaker 1: and yeah.

629
00:30:45,476 --> 00:30:47,636
Speaker 2: I'm the rhythm guitar player for that track, and there's

630
00:30:47,636 --> 00:30:51,516
Speaker 2: a melody embedded, but it's but it's subliminal. It's it's

631
00:30:51,516 --> 00:30:55,796
Speaker 2: it's totally baked into the center. Yeah, that's a cool

632
00:30:55,836 --> 00:30:56,716
Speaker 2: example of that.

633
00:30:57,036 --> 00:30:57,396
Speaker 1: How does that?

634
00:30:57,436 --> 00:31:32,196
Speaker 2: How did you let me see if I play that's? Uh,

635
00:31:32,716 --> 00:31:36,836
Speaker 2: that's that's that's the sentiment, that's the whole tune. You know. Uh,

636
00:31:36,876 --> 00:31:38,476
Speaker 2: it's cool, It's it's really cool.

637
00:31:38,876 --> 00:31:41,596
Speaker 1: It's really so, it feels really good.

638
00:31:41,836 --> 00:31:45,116
Speaker 2: It feels really good. So I have an you know

639
00:31:46,036 --> 00:31:49,476
Speaker 2: that that I I humble pie on that one. I

640
00:31:49,476 --> 00:31:53,436
Speaker 2: I that was the a section of a longer song

641
00:31:53,476 --> 00:31:56,356
Speaker 2: and I'd written it in kind of a writing sprint.

642
00:31:56,396 --> 00:31:59,196
Speaker 2: I was writing all these tunes and you know, like

643
00:31:59,396 --> 00:32:01,676
Speaker 2: lots of dozens and dozens pencil and paper kind of SATs,

644
00:32:01,716 --> 00:32:04,756
Speaker 2: write one throat and then I and I I threw

645
00:32:04,796 --> 00:32:07,276
Speaker 2: it out because I it wasn't done. And then Joe Henry,

646
00:32:07,316 --> 00:32:09,796
Speaker 2: who produced the record. This is on the last day

647
00:32:09,836 --> 00:32:12,756
Speaker 2: of the recording, I was driving in the session with

648
00:32:12,796 --> 00:32:15,036
Speaker 2: Margaret and I was saying, you know, there was that

649
00:32:15,156 --> 00:32:18,076
Speaker 2: song that's not finished and it's probably a bad idea

650
00:32:18,076 --> 00:32:20,316
Speaker 2: for me to try to finish this song right now,

651
00:32:20,356 --> 00:32:22,516
Speaker 2: isn't it. And she was like, well, no, just you

652
00:32:22,636 --> 00:32:24,156
Speaker 2: kind of have you have other things on your plate.

653
00:32:24,196 --> 00:32:26,116
Speaker 2: You have to finish the record. I don't think you

654
00:32:26,116 --> 00:32:28,276
Speaker 2: need more. But and so I showed Joe when we

655
00:32:28,316 --> 00:32:30,196
Speaker 2: got there, and I said, well, here's the first part

656
00:32:30,516 --> 00:32:32,996
Speaker 2: and it needs the next part. And as you know,

657
00:32:33,036 --> 00:32:37,476
Speaker 2: from a place of such clarity and experienced, Joe said,

658
00:32:38,516 --> 00:32:40,716
Speaker 2: how about you don't finish it and you just loop that?

659
00:32:41,636 --> 00:32:46,436
Speaker 2: And I said, sure, you know, and and it was.

660
00:32:46,516 --> 00:32:50,196
Speaker 2: It was beautiful because I realized that, Yeah, I think,

661
00:32:50,276 --> 00:32:51,876
Speaker 2: at least to me, what I get excited about with

662
00:32:51,916 --> 00:32:55,996
Speaker 2: that song is the real drama reveals itself. Once you've

663
00:32:55,996 --> 00:32:59,756
Speaker 2: gone into this kind of tantric thing, it needs time

664
00:32:59,836 --> 00:33:02,396
Speaker 2: to get you kind of worked up. And had I

665
00:33:02,436 --> 00:33:05,156
Speaker 2: committed to my stipulation that no, I insist there's more

666
00:33:05,196 --> 00:33:08,356
Speaker 2: to be written, it just would have been a different drama,

667
00:33:08,516 --> 00:33:11,116
Speaker 2: you know, And I'm so glad it wasn't that. There's

668
00:33:11,116 --> 00:33:15,436
Speaker 2: also something very kinesthetically physically pleasing about playing a song

669
00:33:15,476 --> 00:33:19,596
Speaker 2: where you know, I'm not trying to play just a

670
00:33:19,596 --> 00:33:21,636
Speaker 2: single note. I can kind of throw my weight into

671
00:33:21,636 --> 00:33:25,316
Speaker 2: the rhythm yeah, and the strumming and the Richie Havens

672
00:33:25,396 --> 00:33:30,476
Speaker 2: ode he had all all things are and so yeah,

673
00:33:30,516 --> 00:33:34,316
Speaker 2: that but that that that's kind of song that. Yeah,

674
00:33:34,396 --> 00:33:36,516
Speaker 2: Jim Hall used to love Richie Havens. You would talk

675
00:33:36,516 --> 00:33:38,636
Speaker 2: about him a lot, you know. Oh yeah, because Jim

676
00:33:38,876 --> 00:33:44,676
Speaker 2: I can't do it, you know, Jim had the Yeah,

677
00:33:44,716 --> 00:33:46,076
Speaker 2: this guy, I wish I could do it like him,

678
00:33:46,076 --> 00:33:48,356
Speaker 2: and he'd do with a lighter pick and and uh,

679
00:33:48,476 --> 00:33:50,676
Speaker 2: but I would ask him about it. He's, oh, Richie Havens,

680
00:33:50,716 --> 00:33:54,276
Speaker 2: it's all it's all Richie, you know. Like of course, what.

681
00:33:54,396 --> 00:33:57,036
Speaker 3: Was Richie Havens was like an open eto I think

682
00:33:57,116 --> 00:33:57,676
Speaker 3: so it was.

683
00:33:57,636 --> 00:33:59,356
Speaker 2: Some sort of open tuning that he could, you know,

684
00:33:59,396 --> 00:34:02,476
Speaker 2: then access with his thumb right and and that. And

685
00:34:02,756 --> 00:34:05,196
Speaker 2: I don't know if I got the sense he used Well,

686
00:34:05,236 --> 00:34:07,956
Speaker 2: I shouldn't speculate. That's not my area. But I'm not

687
00:34:07,956 --> 00:34:09,836
Speaker 2: sure how he held the pick. But he was lighter

688
00:34:09,836 --> 00:34:12,636
Speaker 2: than this one, is my guess. But yeah, so that's

689
00:34:12,676 --> 00:34:13,876
Speaker 2: part of the joy of it, I guess.

690
00:34:14,116 --> 00:34:16,956
Speaker 1: Did you have a second section in mind for that song?

691
00:34:17,036 --> 00:34:20,156
Speaker 2: I did. I don't remember it now, probably because it

692
00:34:20,196 --> 00:34:25,756
Speaker 2: wasn't terribly I remember talking to John Zorn about that.

693
00:34:26,156 --> 00:34:28,276
Speaker 2: I was I was working on something just like like that.

694
00:34:28,356 --> 00:34:31,796
Speaker 2: I said, uh, well, he just I just I just

695
00:34:31,836 --> 00:34:33,796
Speaker 2: can't seem to recall it because it's not coming together.

696
00:34:33,836 --> 00:34:35,556
Speaker 2: And he was the one who gave me permission. He said,

697
00:34:35,556 --> 00:34:37,316
Speaker 2: you can you can say it's not good and just

698
00:34:37,436 --> 00:34:39,276
Speaker 2: drop it. You don't have to be a hero and

699
00:34:39,316 --> 00:34:42,076
Speaker 2: like make it work. Yes, yeah, And I said, in

700
00:34:42,076 --> 00:34:44,076
Speaker 2: a way that was so sweet, it wasn't you just

701
00:34:44,156 --> 00:34:46,876
Speaker 2: kind of don't make it about you not being good.

702
00:34:46,916 --> 00:34:49,356
Speaker 2: He's just I said, it's just not killing. Go do

703
00:34:49,436 --> 00:34:53,796
Speaker 2: something killing. And then okay, you know, fine, yes, sir.

704
00:34:54,796 --> 00:34:57,076
Speaker 2: Uh so yeah that but that song came out well

705
00:34:57,116 --> 00:34:59,156
Speaker 2: and it was nice because it also parlayed into the

706
00:34:59,156 --> 00:35:06,236
Speaker 2: band sounding great, amazing. He's so good and so anyway,

707
00:35:06,236 --> 00:35:07,036
Speaker 2: that's right, that's what.

708
00:35:06,956 --> 00:35:10,196
Speaker 3: We're going for. You hook up with hojge.

709
00:35:10,636 --> 00:35:13,356
Speaker 2: That's a cool thing, very you know, happenstance. But it's

710
00:35:13,396 --> 00:35:15,356
Speaker 2: at this point Jorge Rotter, who I just think is

711
00:35:15,356 --> 00:35:17,796
Speaker 2: the greatest in the world. You know, we've been playing

712
00:35:17,796 --> 00:35:22,996
Speaker 2: together sixteen years pretty consistently. And we met at Stanford

713
00:35:23,036 --> 00:35:26,956
Speaker 2: Jazz Workshop and I was teaching and he was visiting

714
00:35:26,956 --> 00:35:29,316
Speaker 2: a friend and we got put in a room a

715
00:35:29,476 --> 00:35:33,236
Speaker 2: coke closet, basically because Peter Burnstein was there that day

716
00:35:33,276 --> 00:35:35,356
Speaker 2: and we were all in a Peter you know, as

717
00:35:35,396 --> 00:35:39,436
Speaker 2: I still am, and they said, get rhythm, get everyone,

718
00:35:39,596 --> 00:35:42,116
Speaker 2: we're gonna play a session. And it was me and

719
00:35:42,196 --> 00:35:45,756
Speaker 2: our friend Ben Roseth, Jorgey and Peter and we just

720
00:35:45,836 --> 00:35:48,636
Speaker 2: hit it off. Played instead. That felt great, and uh

721
00:35:48,876 --> 00:35:52,636
Speaker 2: so we would play duets. We started a band. Then

722
00:35:53,436 --> 00:35:57,836
Speaker 2: Jorge joined Gary Burton's band, and then Jorge became part

723
00:35:57,876 --> 00:36:01,676
Speaker 2: of my trio. He was he was always a part

724
00:36:01,676 --> 00:36:03,996
Speaker 2: of it. He became part of this new configuration. And

725
00:36:04,036 --> 00:36:07,516
Speaker 2: then he became a part of Nell's Klein's band that

726
00:36:07,596 --> 00:36:10,036
Speaker 2: we did for Blueo that record do we record with Scott?

727
00:36:10,236 --> 00:36:13,076
Speaker 2: But then we went on tour with you with me? Yeah, no,

728
00:36:13,156 --> 00:36:14,636
Speaker 2: I was with it. It was an Nels kind four

729
00:36:16,756 --> 00:36:19,236
Speaker 2: and then Horre and I both kind of joined Zorn's

730
00:36:19,276 --> 00:36:21,396
Speaker 2: Worlds and then we became a part of the new

731
00:36:21,476 --> 00:36:25,236
Speaker 2: Masadic quartet. So and apart from us just being complete,

732
00:36:26,116 --> 00:36:28,836
Speaker 2: you know, completely connected, we've shared a lot of our

733
00:36:28,876 --> 00:36:31,716
Speaker 2: musical development together. There's no one else I've been through

734
00:36:31,796 --> 00:36:36,436
Speaker 2: so many projects with by my side, and uh it's

735
00:36:36,476 --> 00:36:37,476
Speaker 2: it's pretty remarkable.

736
00:36:38,076 --> 00:36:40,116
Speaker 3: But you knew from the beginning. Then I knew from

737
00:36:40,156 --> 00:36:41,436
Speaker 3: the beginning the time.

738
00:36:42,316 --> 00:36:44,916
Speaker 2: Safe, you know, I think there's I think I think

739
00:36:44,996 --> 00:36:46,556
Speaker 2: safety is a big thing where you feel like you

740
00:36:46,636 --> 00:36:48,316
Speaker 2: can kind of go for something, you know that someone's

741
00:36:48,356 --> 00:36:51,516
Speaker 2: got your back. But also I think another part of

742
00:36:51,556 --> 00:36:54,076
Speaker 2: it with Hore is that we touched the string differently

743
00:36:54,116 --> 00:36:57,236
Speaker 2: but kind of similarly. We obviously him with a double

744
00:36:57,236 --> 00:36:59,956
Speaker 2: bass move the guitar, but there's a I do think

745
00:36:59,996 --> 00:37:05,196
Speaker 2: we share a similar belief that we deal with obstacles

746
00:37:05,276 --> 00:37:10,316
Speaker 2: kind of similarly. It's there there's kind of a the

747
00:37:10,436 --> 00:37:12,276
Speaker 2: only and I don't know, I could be wrong, but

748
00:37:12,356 --> 00:37:16,876
Speaker 2: I think we both see any kind of virtuosity as

749
00:37:16,956 --> 00:37:20,036
Speaker 2: a means towards emotional expression. So you it's like what

750
00:37:20,036 --> 00:37:22,196
Speaker 2: I'm saying about Boar, you developed these skills him on

751
00:37:22,236 --> 00:37:27,916
Speaker 2: the basis is unbelievably great, and yet you're never hit

752
00:37:28,076 --> 00:37:31,476
Speaker 2: with anything other than the emotional impact first and then

753
00:37:31,476 --> 00:37:33,476
Speaker 2: as addressed and go oh my god, and how did

754
00:37:33,516 --> 00:37:35,796
Speaker 2: he do that? But I think just that shared kind

755
00:37:35,836 --> 00:37:38,636
Speaker 2: of esthetic has kind of carried you know, you can

756
00:37:38,676 --> 00:37:40,956
Speaker 2: be daring, you can be amazing, can be virtuosis, you

757
00:37:40,996 --> 00:37:43,476
Speaker 2: can be fast, you can be you know, you can

758
00:37:43,556 --> 00:37:45,756
Speaker 2: be evil, and evil you can, but you always go

759
00:37:45,956 --> 00:37:48,196
Speaker 2: I think I love most about it is that he

760
00:37:48,356 --> 00:37:52,116
Speaker 2: will He'll always go for the attempt and he lands it,

761
00:37:52,356 --> 00:37:57,796
Speaker 2: but he'll he that that exhilaration is so seductive and

762
00:37:57,876 --> 00:37:59,836
Speaker 2: it's just and I'm not saying on fast music. It

763
00:37:59,876 --> 00:38:01,316
Speaker 2: can be on a ballad, but there's the sense that

764
00:38:01,556 --> 00:38:04,116
Speaker 2: we're gonna we're gonna jump off the cliff and I

765
00:38:04,116 --> 00:38:06,996
Speaker 2: don't know if the parachute's gonna open, And so it's

766
00:38:06,996 --> 00:38:09,116
Speaker 2: been nice to have that energy follows through all these pride.

767
00:38:09,756 --> 00:38:11,276
Speaker 1: Do you ever write with him with him?

768
00:38:11,716 --> 00:38:15,596
Speaker 2: Not really, it's kind of understood that that's not our domain,

769
00:38:15,956 --> 00:38:20,156
Speaker 2: but I should say this, I do write with him

770
00:38:20,156 --> 00:38:22,956
Speaker 2: in the sense that I will write thirty songs, forty songs,

771
00:38:23,036 --> 00:38:24,996
Speaker 2: just a bunch of stuff, and then the first place

772
00:38:25,036 --> 00:38:26,516
Speaker 2: I go is to his house and we play them

773
00:38:26,516 --> 00:38:28,516
Speaker 2: all and we see how it hits us. And he's

774
00:38:28,556 --> 00:38:31,836
Speaker 2: a massive part of the music you hear because of that.

775
00:38:31,996 --> 00:38:33,916
Speaker 2: So he's a part of the editing, he's part of

776
00:38:33,956 --> 00:38:37,156
Speaker 2: the sequence of the records, he's a part of everything.

777
00:38:37,276 --> 00:38:39,356
Speaker 2: Jorge is integral and there are things we have definitely

778
00:38:39,396 --> 00:38:42,036
Speaker 2: co written, but I think it's I mean, all fairness,

779
00:38:42,396 --> 00:38:47,956
Speaker 2: anything we've ever recorded together in mine is the He

780
00:38:48,076 --> 00:38:49,956
Speaker 2: deserves credit for it sounding the way it is on

781
00:38:50,036 --> 00:38:54,996
Speaker 2: a compositional level, but it's usually not because we started together.

782
00:38:55,676 --> 00:38:57,396
Speaker 1: One of the tunes on your new record that sounds

783
00:38:57,636 --> 00:39:02,036
Speaker 1: like virtuosic, if that's a word, but again, kind of

784
00:39:02,076 --> 00:39:05,716
Speaker 1: like Omissions has a great feel too. Is vanishing points?

785
00:39:06,156 --> 00:39:08,516
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's yeah, that's this one.

786
00:39:09,956 --> 00:39:27,436
Speaker 2: Listen, I'll say a little bit and then the theme

787
00:39:27,636 --> 00:40:56,676
Speaker 2: is fa that's the that's the architecture.

788
00:40:58,076 --> 00:41:00,036
Speaker 1: After this last break. While the rest of Down was

789
00:41:00,116 --> 00:41:07,236
Speaker 1: and me in conversation with Julian Lage, here's the rest

790
00:41:07,276 --> 00:41:09,076
Speaker 1: of our conversation with Juliana.

791
00:41:10,476 --> 00:41:12,036
Speaker 3: How do you even write something like that?

792
00:41:12,196 --> 00:41:12,316
Speaker 1: Man?

793
00:41:12,396 --> 00:41:13,036
Speaker 3: I don't even.

794
00:41:14,636 --> 00:41:18,236
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm trying to remember that one. To me,

795
00:41:18,356 --> 00:41:21,436
Speaker 2: that's such an ode to Carlo Blea. You know, it

796
00:41:21,516 --> 00:41:24,756
Speaker 2: kind of feels like a liberation music orchestra song. There's

797
00:41:24,796 --> 00:41:33,396
Speaker 2: something blunts about this parallel movement. It's almost it's like

798
00:41:33,596 --> 00:41:40,476
Speaker 2: it's it's it's so, it's just it's just so, I

799
00:41:40,596 --> 00:41:43,316
Speaker 2: don't know what it is normal in a way, it's not.

800
00:41:43,436 --> 00:41:46,036
Speaker 2: It's not terribly clever. It's just this sounds cool. Bam

801
00:41:46,156 --> 00:41:48,636
Speaker 2: bam bam bam bamp and and there's something about it

802
00:41:48,676 --> 00:41:53,036
Speaker 2: where I think it's juxtaposed with this very elegant, almost

803
00:41:53,436 --> 00:41:56,276
Speaker 2: kind of folklore sounding melody. And I think when I

804
00:41:56,316 --> 00:41:58,756
Speaker 2: say folklore, I think I think of it even as

805
00:41:59,476 --> 00:42:03,036
Speaker 2: reprids me certain Italian music's or in Jewish music's certain.

806
00:42:03,716 --> 00:42:08,556
Speaker 2: There's just that's whatever. That's my projection, and a tune

807
00:42:08,636 --> 00:42:13,076
Speaker 2: like that, it's very hard to stop writing, you know,

808
00:42:13,156 --> 00:42:14,716
Speaker 2: because for me, it's like, well, it's not in time,

809
00:42:14,796 --> 00:42:18,116
Speaker 2: there's not really a progression that we blow over. And

810
00:42:18,236 --> 00:42:22,476
Speaker 2: so that's a tune that, you know, I kept putting

811
00:42:22,476 --> 00:42:24,156
Speaker 2: at the bottom of the pile. I wouldn't really show

812
00:42:24,196 --> 00:42:25,916
Speaker 2: it anyone because I don't do what you tell anyone

813
00:42:25,956 --> 00:42:28,916
Speaker 2: to do on that, you know, I got, I seem

814
00:42:28,956 --> 00:42:30,876
Speaker 2: to have it covered and it does this thing emotionally

815
00:42:30,916 --> 00:42:34,076
Speaker 2: and I don't really have any more directive. So but

816
00:42:34,276 --> 00:42:36,636
Speaker 2: as I showed it to Dave King and Joe wrote

817
00:42:36,636 --> 00:42:40,276
Speaker 2: to my trio, they they were they they pointed out

818
00:42:40,316 --> 00:42:42,156
Speaker 2: what what I think is. Obviously, of course there's something

819
00:42:42,196 --> 00:42:44,556
Speaker 2: to do, you just I'm just not dictating their part

820
00:42:45,356 --> 00:42:49,436
Speaker 2: it's a very inviting tune. And uh but that parallel

821
00:42:49,516 --> 00:42:52,036
Speaker 2: motion fun. That's all that, you know. I just keep

822
00:42:52,076 --> 00:42:53,836
Speaker 2: coming back to Stravinsky and know all these things in

823
00:42:53,876 --> 00:42:56,596
Speaker 2: bar talk. There's these movements and how you use it

824
00:42:56,636 --> 00:42:57,196
Speaker 2: as everything.

825
00:42:57,356 --> 00:43:01,556
Speaker 3: But did that just burst out of you in one

826
00:43:01,676 --> 00:43:03,956
Speaker 3: sitting or did you go a section at a time.

827
00:43:04,236 --> 00:43:08,876
Speaker 2: I think I want to say that it was It

828
00:43:08,916 --> 00:43:10,716
Speaker 2: was kind of a combination of both. It was an

829
00:43:10,716 --> 00:43:17,236
Speaker 2: improvisation probably that I'm pretty fastidious about writing things on

830
00:43:17,276 --> 00:43:20,476
Speaker 2: a big piece of manuscript paper. And when doing and

831
00:43:20,556 --> 00:43:24,996
Speaker 2: doing that, you see these kind of the sections are

832
00:43:25,036 --> 00:43:27,316
Speaker 2: just laid out like a storyboard. And so I remember

833
00:43:27,356 --> 00:43:29,316
Speaker 2: with that one kind of moving them around a lot.

834
00:43:29,596 --> 00:43:32,836
Speaker 2: You know, is this the begin or do we save that?

835
00:43:33,276 --> 00:43:35,516
Speaker 2: Is this the first thing that happens? Is this the

836
00:43:35,596 --> 00:43:37,556
Speaker 2: first thing? So I just remember toilet like kind of

837
00:43:38,036 --> 00:43:40,436
Speaker 2: putting them in different orders until it got a trajectory.

838
00:43:42,196 --> 00:43:45,916
Speaker 2: But I improvise a lot and record and then transcribe it.

839
00:43:46,036 --> 00:43:49,796
Speaker 2: That's a big thing, you know, I will. And with

840
00:43:49,876 --> 00:43:51,916
Speaker 2: this record, I was, you know what I was really

841
00:43:52,236 --> 00:43:54,436
Speaker 2: on a side twombly kick. I was looking at a

842
00:43:54,476 --> 00:43:56,996
Speaker 2: lot of side twombly art as one of my father's

843
00:43:57,036 --> 00:43:58,916
Speaker 2: favorite artists, and I had this book of my father's

844
00:43:58,956 --> 00:44:01,076
Speaker 2: I was looking at it, and so I would spend

845
00:44:01,116 --> 00:44:03,876
Speaker 2: a lot of time looking at an image, improvising and

846
00:44:03,916 --> 00:44:07,756
Speaker 2: recording it and then going back and kind of seeing

847
00:44:07,796 --> 00:44:10,116
Speaker 2: if anything emerged that was There's a tune on the

848
00:44:10,156 --> 00:44:39,596
Speaker 2: record called two and one, So yeah, uh, that's that's

849
00:44:39,756 --> 00:44:42,396
Speaker 2: that's just that's an improvisation that I Okay, I write

850
00:44:42,436 --> 00:44:45,556
Speaker 2: it down, and and it's what's interesting to me is

851
00:44:45,636 --> 00:44:50,516
Speaker 2: that I don't think writing down makes it more significant.

852
00:44:50,596 --> 00:44:50,716
Speaker 1: You know.

853
00:44:50,796 --> 00:44:53,756
Speaker 2: You can write down a piece of garbage, you know too,

854
00:44:53,796 --> 00:44:55,276
Speaker 2: and you just go, oh, that was a lot of

855
00:44:55,316 --> 00:44:59,236
Speaker 2: work for nothing. But there is something noticeable in that tune,

856
00:44:59,236 --> 00:45:01,556
Speaker 2: and listening back with that, I that wouldn't have occurred

857
00:45:01,636 --> 00:45:03,716
Speaker 2: to me to pay something that way if I was

858
00:45:03,796 --> 00:45:05,956
Speaker 2: looking at a piece of paper, you know, and then

859
00:45:05,996 --> 00:45:07,836
Speaker 2: you write it down and it looked to me. I

860
00:45:08,356 --> 00:45:09,836
Speaker 2: looked at the chart the other day and it still

861
00:45:09,836 --> 00:45:12,036
Speaker 2: looks like something I never would have written. And that's

862
00:45:12,076 --> 00:45:14,396
Speaker 2: so cool, you know, But it takes time to say, no,

863
00:45:14,436 --> 00:45:17,156
Speaker 2: I'm going to write everything, and kind of how.

864
00:45:17,116 --> 00:45:21,076
Speaker 1: Long are you improvising before something like that comes out?

865
00:45:21,316 --> 00:45:27,076
Speaker 2: Well, I suppose it depends that wasn't terribly long, you know,

866
00:45:27,236 --> 00:45:28,956
Speaker 2: not long, probably as long as it took to just

867
00:45:29,036 --> 00:45:31,716
Speaker 2: play and then stop, so a minute, you know, But

868
00:45:31,836 --> 00:45:34,276
Speaker 2: I improvise in those chunks a lot for that reason.

869
00:45:34,396 --> 00:45:38,116
Speaker 2: I believe that, you know. One of the great lessons

870
00:45:38,156 --> 00:45:42,876
Speaker 2: I learned was from alouding Matthew w A Matthew wonderful

871
00:45:43,236 --> 00:45:45,676
Speaker 2: composer who I studied with only once as a kid,

872
00:45:45,756 --> 00:45:48,876
Speaker 2: and he wrote a bunch of very important books, the

873
00:45:49,156 --> 00:45:51,316
Speaker 2: short version of stories that at an early age when

874
00:45:51,356 --> 00:45:54,956
Speaker 2: I studied with him, he encouraged me to improvise one

875
00:45:54,996 --> 00:46:00,156
Speaker 2: minute compositions a lot. Wow, and here's the quick version

876
00:46:00,236 --> 00:46:03,156
Speaker 2: of it, because it's quite expansive. But he would I

877
00:46:03,316 --> 00:46:05,236
Speaker 2: came to myself, I'm trying to develop my voice and

878
00:46:05,356 --> 00:46:06,916
Speaker 2: understand how to be a composer. And he said, well,

879
00:46:06,956 --> 00:46:11,316
Speaker 2: here's what you do, is you improvise a song. So

880
00:46:11,396 --> 00:46:13,916
Speaker 2: we're not just saying you're not just playing around, you're

881
00:46:13,956 --> 00:46:16,276
Speaker 2: trying to okay, at thirty seconds, you're at the middle

882
00:46:16,356 --> 00:46:18,956
Speaker 2: at forty five seconds a year near the end, he said,

883
00:46:18,956 --> 00:46:21,636
Speaker 2: I want you to do this with a timer and

884
00:46:21,756 --> 00:46:25,476
Speaker 2: a recorder. That was before I phone side now he said,

885
00:46:25,476 --> 00:46:26,956
Speaker 2: I want you to do ten of these a day

886
00:46:27,876 --> 00:46:29,996
Speaker 2: for a week and don't listen to them until the

887
00:46:30,036 --> 00:46:33,076
Speaker 2: week is up. And I sold anything else, he said, no,

888
00:46:33,196 --> 00:46:35,556
Speaker 2: just try to create a narrative. Create a narrative, and

889
00:46:35,756 --> 00:46:37,596
Speaker 2: do not listen to them. At the end of the week,

890
00:46:38,036 --> 00:46:41,116
Speaker 2: you have seventy minutes. It's like a stop you know,

891
00:46:41,196 --> 00:46:45,676
Speaker 2: it's like stop animation, or seventy minutes of you improvising compositionally.

892
00:46:46,356 --> 00:46:48,156
Speaker 2: And he said, I want you to listen to that

893
00:46:48,396 --> 00:46:52,436
Speaker 2: and basically make two lists. On one list, write down

894
00:46:52,476 --> 00:46:54,956
Speaker 2: everything you notice about it, and on the other side

895
00:46:54,956 --> 00:46:58,916
Speaker 2: of list everything you'd like to develop or further. And man,

896
00:46:58,996 --> 00:47:00,716
Speaker 2: the first time I did this, I think I saved

897
00:47:00,796 --> 00:47:02,716
Speaker 2: up twelve days worth or fourteen days. I had one

898
00:47:02,756 --> 00:47:05,156
Speaker 2: hundred and forty minutes of me playing solo guitar, which

899
00:47:05,276 --> 00:47:07,236
Speaker 2: was I never would have done at that time if

900
00:47:07,316 --> 00:47:10,676
Speaker 2: I hadn't done it one minute a time. What I

901
00:47:10,756 --> 00:47:14,836
Speaker 2: thought was cool about it was I heard trends, your

902
00:47:14,916 --> 00:47:16,836
Speaker 2: trends in your music. I was playing all these D

903
00:47:16,996 --> 00:47:19,236
Speaker 2: major chords and I playing all this country music. I

904
00:47:19,236 --> 00:47:20,596
Speaker 2: would I thought I was a beboffer.

905
00:47:20,716 --> 00:47:20,836
Speaker 1: Man.

906
00:47:20,916 --> 00:47:23,596
Speaker 2: I don't know what I played all these like languid mail.

907
00:47:23,676 --> 00:47:26,636
Speaker 2: I mean, stuff that I didn't relate to, but it

908
00:47:26,676 --> 00:47:28,876
Speaker 2: didn't lie. I had, you know, here here I was.

909
00:47:29,236 --> 00:47:31,716
Speaker 2: And that that got me thinking that every time you improvise,

910
00:47:31,796 --> 00:47:35,356
Speaker 2: you are kind of stating your language. It's not like

911
00:47:35,436 --> 00:47:39,196
Speaker 2: I'm gonna wiggle around until something happens. You you you

912
00:47:39,396 --> 00:47:41,396
Speaker 2: are you so just kind of s and that that

913
00:47:41,516 --> 00:47:43,236
Speaker 2: I think that makes it so it's less of a

914
00:47:44,556 --> 00:47:46,036
Speaker 2: you just be yourself on record.

915
00:47:46,156 --> 00:47:47,636
Speaker 1: How did you respond to that information? Was it.

916
00:47:49,396 --> 00:47:49,676
Speaker 3: Country?

917
00:47:49,716 --> 00:47:52,156
Speaker 2: So that's that started all my That kind of pushed

918
00:47:52,196 --> 00:47:54,716
Speaker 2: me into all the the stuff I was doing with

919
00:47:55,196 --> 00:47:57,636
Speaker 2: in my own music that was probably more Americana leaning.

920
00:47:57,916 --> 00:47:59,916
Speaker 2: I didn't feel as bad about using open strings. I

921
00:47:59,956 --> 00:48:02,796
Speaker 2: didn't feel all those tropes. I was just like, holy cow,

922
00:48:02,876 --> 00:48:05,676
Speaker 2: I'm this kid from California who grew up around this music.

923
00:48:05,716 --> 00:48:08,396
Speaker 2: Of course, of course that's what comes out. I just

924
00:48:08,516 --> 00:48:11,516
Speaker 2: was blind to. So I I endorsed it, you know,

925
00:48:11,756 --> 00:48:14,876
Speaker 2: I reinforced it. I wrote that way, and I started

926
00:48:14,916 --> 00:48:17,316
Speaker 2: a band around this old quintet. I started playing with

927
00:48:17,356 --> 00:48:20,356
Speaker 2: Chris Eldridge, start playing with Christely, So it was it

928
00:48:20,476 --> 00:48:23,396
Speaker 2: was good, you know, and that interesting. So anyways, so

929
00:48:23,396 --> 00:48:26,356
Speaker 2: all to say when you're in front, I think you know,

930
00:48:26,596 --> 00:48:27,596
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know.

931
00:48:27,676 --> 00:48:30,756
Speaker 3: It's probably did you have did you walk away? With songs?

932
00:48:30,996 --> 00:48:31,116
Speaker 1: Oh?

933
00:48:31,276 --> 00:48:33,476
Speaker 2: So many songs, so many songs. It's just a matter

934
00:48:33,516 --> 00:48:35,556
Speaker 2: of kind of picking him out. Well that's this thing,

935
00:48:35,676 --> 00:48:38,436
Speaker 2: or a lot of that. And I did another big

936
00:48:38,556 --> 00:48:40,636
Speaker 2: batch in that I did this for years, you know,

937
00:48:40,836 --> 00:48:44,236
Speaker 2: five years of the straight led to a solo record

938
00:48:44,316 --> 00:48:48,436
Speaker 2: I made called World's Fair and that was all improvisations

939
00:48:48,476 --> 00:48:50,556
Speaker 2: basically that I just like took out and then put

940
00:48:50,596 --> 00:48:51,796
Speaker 2: on wow, put up.

941
00:48:52,436 --> 00:48:53,116
Speaker 1: Do you still do whatever?

942
00:48:53,836 --> 00:48:55,916
Speaker 2: I do it a lot less less systematically.

943
00:48:56,796 --> 00:48:56,956
Speaker 3: You know.

944
00:48:58,036 --> 00:48:59,956
Speaker 2: I wasn't feeling well recently for a little while, and

945
00:48:59,996 --> 00:49:01,956
Speaker 2: then I kind of got my strength back to play.

946
00:49:02,676 --> 00:49:04,196
Speaker 2: And all I do is I just in my room

947
00:49:04,196 --> 00:49:06,276
Speaker 2: and improvise these things. I record them and I just

948
00:49:06,996 --> 00:49:09,836
Speaker 2: it's great. It's it's really healing to do it. And

949
00:49:09,916 --> 00:49:11,916
Speaker 2: then I've and some songs are growing out of it already,

950
00:49:11,956 --> 00:49:13,196
Speaker 2: so it's kind of cool. You know.

951
00:49:14,036 --> 00:49:15,036
Speaker 3: Comedy one more time?

952
00:49:15,196 --> 00:49:19,996
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, ten, it's my favorite thing in the world.

953
00:49:20,396 --> 00:49:21,956
Speaker 2: You're going to set a time or let's just say

954
00:49:21,996 --> 00:49:23,276
Speaker 2: for ease, we'll say voice memo.

955
00:49:23,596 --> 00:49:24,356
Speaker 1: You know app.

956
00:49:25,916 --> 00:49:29,556
Speaker 2: You press start, you begin playing, and you begin playing

957
00:49:29,596 --> 00:49:32,716
Speaker 2: as if it's a song that you know, but you're

958
00:49:32,756 --> 00:49:34,516
Speaker 2: just playing it now, right, it's kind of make believe.

959
00:49:35,436 --> 00:49:37,076
Speaker 2: You want to keep your eye on the clock because

960
00:49:37,116 --> 00:49:39,636
Speaker 2: at about thirty seconds, this is your this is your

961
00:49:39,716 --> 00:49:42,836
Speaker 2: last exit, you know before you're so if you want

962
00:49:42,876 --> 00:49:45,356
Speaker 2: anything to change, you can do it there. At about

963
00:49:45,396 --> 00:49:48,196
Speaker 2: forty five to fifty seconds, you want to cought be

964
00:49:48,396 --> 00:49:52,316
Speaker 2: conscientiously trying to bring it in for landing. You don't

965
00:49:52,316 --> 00:49:55,356
Speaker 2: want the buzzer to go off and be startled. And

966
00:49:55,596 --> 00:50:00,316
Speaker 2: you would do this ten times a day, but not

967
00:50:00,436 --> 00:50:02,716
Speaker 2: one after another. So maybe you do it and you

968
00:50:02,796 --> 00:50:04,956
Speaker 2: go do something, come back to another, do it. You

969
00:50:05,076 --> 00:50:09,716
Speaker 2: are actively trying to get a snapshot, getting like your

970
00:50:09,756 --> 00:50:12,356
Speaker 2: blood work done. Musically, you're trying to get your labs done,

971
00:50:13,996 --> 00:50:15,596
Speaker 2: and you do, but you just don't open it up

972
00:50:15,676 --> 00:50:16,996
Speaker 2: till the end. And when you listen to it, you

973
00:50:17,076 --> 00:50:19,356
Speaker 2: put it in iTunes or something so you can listen

974
00:50:19,396 --> 00:50:22,636
Speaker 2: to it uninterrupted, and so you forget where the minutes

975
00:50:22,636 --> 00:50:24,076
Speaker 2: started and where it ended, and you do it on

976
00:50:24,156 --> 00:50:26,716
Speaker 2: shuffle things like that. Isn't that cool?

977
00:50:26,836 --> 00:50:30,516
Speaker 3: If you pick up a different guitar there's a whole

978
00:50:30,636 --> 00:50:31,196
Speaker 3: other thing.

979
00:50:31,316 --> 00:50:33,436
Speaker 2: Absolutely, well, it's funny you say that. Don I feel

980
00:50:33,476 --> 00:50:35,236
Speaker 2: like my brain is between the electric world and the

981
00:50:35,236 --> 00:50:38,716
Speaker 2: acoustic world, and within that there's varieties. But the touch

982
00:50:38,916 --> 00:50:42,436
Speaker 2: is it's different between the two instruments, and I feel,

983
00:50:42,676 --> 00:50:46,276
Speaker 2: you know, I'm in I'm humbled that by the instrument.

984
00:50:46,316 --> 00:50:49,116
Speaker 2: I need to just play what the guitar sounds good doing.

985
00:50:50,436 --> 00:50:53,756
Speaker 2: Having said that, I tend to rotate only between a couple,

986
00:50:54,356 --> 00:50:56,676
Speaker 2: you know, mostly guitars that are in tune, so that

987
00:50:56,716 --> 00:50:59,476
Speaker 2: at least I have a pitch. You know, I don't

988
00:50:59,636 --> 00:51:03,436
Speaker 2: use I don't play much with effects or anything, but

989
00:51:03,556 --> 00:51:05,076
Speaker 2: I know that's another world that would probably be quite

990
00:51:05,076 --> 00:51:06,756
Speaker 2: stimulating if I just wanted to explore it.

991
00:51:07,316 --> 00:51:08,716
Speaker 1: When you're at home and you pick up a guitar,

992
00:51:09,356 --> 00:51:12,596
Speaker 1: do you do you just pick one up instinctually, whether

993
00:51:12,636 --> 00:51:16,236
Speaker 1: it's acoustic or electric or do you often purpose sweet.

994
00:51:16,116 --> 00:51:19,196
Speaker 2: Whichever one I can reach from my chair kind of

995
00:51:19,356 --> 00:51:21,516
Speaker 2: that's my instine. This one was out. This acoustic that

996
00:51:21,516 --> 00:51:22,916
Speaker 2: I'm holding was out. So I've been playing more. But

997
00:51:23,556 --> 00:51:25,196
Speaker 2: there there there was about a month where I was

998
00:51:25,236 --> 00:51:27,796
Speaker 2: too lazy to get my main telecaster that I play

999
00:51:27,836 --> 00:51:29,996
Speaker 2: all the time from the from the closet, and so

1000
00:51:30,076 --> 00:51:32,836
Speaker 2: I was playing this other one and it's set up

1001
00:51:32,916 --> 00:51:34,916
Speaker 2: very differently, and it was really inspiring to play that.

1002
00:51:35,436 --> 00:51:38,796
Speaker 2: You know, I really really believe that so much education

1003
00:51:38,876 --> 00:51:42,236
Speaker 2: about playing comes from the instrument. Not to say, just

1004
00:51:42,276 --> 00:51:45,716
Speaker 2: for clarity sake, that you need an expensive guitar to

1005
00:51:45,836 --> 00:51:48,996
Speaker 2: learn how to be a great player. But you know,

1006
00:51:50,476 --> 00:51:52,916
Speaker 2: it's not about me bringing my skills to an instrument.

1007
00:51:52,996 --> 00:51:55,956
Speaker 2: It's really about modifying them so that the instrument resonates.

1008
00:51:56,716 --> 00:51:58,596
Speaker 2: I picked up a guitar last night. I never really

1009
00:51:58,676 --> 00:52:01,836
Speaker 2: play lately. It was too far away from my reach,

1010
00:52:01,876 --> 00:52:04,996
Speaker 2: as I said before, and Margaret was working in the

1011
00:52:05,076 --> 00:52:07,036
Speaker 2: kitchen there and we were just thinking. I was so lovely,

1012
00:52:07,076 --> 00:52:08,596
Speaker 2: and I like, okay. I got out this old tweed

1013
00:52:08,756 --> 00:52:10,556
Speaker 2: champ I used to play religiously and now it just

1014
00:52:10,636 --> 00:52:13,676
Speaker 2: sits next to the tree in the corners. I'm gonna play.

1015
00:52:13,676 --> 00:52:16,796
Speaker 2: And I plugged it in and I sounded bad on it.

1016
00:52:16,796 --> 00:52:19,356
Speaker 2: I just couldn't get a sound. Everything I played sounded

1017
00:52:19,396 --> 00:52:21,756
Speaker 2: like I had, you know, boxing gloves on. I was

1018
00:52:21,796 --> 00:52:23,356
Speaker 2: just kind of and then but over the course of

1019
00:52:23,356 --> 00:52:26,236
Speaker 2: about thirty minutes it got bitter, and by the end

1020
00:52:26,316 --> 00:52:28,596
Speaker 2: I was playing. It was such it sounded so good.

1021
00:52:28,676 --> 00:52:31,396
Speaker 2: I'm telling you because I just chilled out. I touched

1022
00:52:31,436 --> 00:52:33,036
Speaker 2: it the way the guitar wanted to be played and

1023
00:52:33,116 --> 00:52:34,996
Speaker 2: not the way I wanted to play it, and I

1024
00:52:35,156 --> 00:52:37,556
Speaker 2: just said, like, think thinks that was what a lesson

1025
00:52:37,636 --> 00:52:38,236
Speaker 2: I put it down.

1026
00:52:38,316 --> 00:52:40,996
Speaker 1: And it's so interesting. That's the opposite sometimes, I mean,

1027
00:52:41,116 --> 00:52:46,516
Speaker 1: guess going back to uh sort of the the lineage

1028
00:52:46,556 --> 00:52:48,676
Speaker 1: you get into when you pick up a guitar, these

1029
00:52:48,836 --> 00:52:50,756
Speaker 1: icons as I mean, the stories you hear is like

1030
00:52:51,396 --> 00:52:53,796
Speaker 1: Hendrix getting beating the guitar and it's a submission, you know,

1031
00:52:54,396 --> 00:52:56,996
Speaker 1: I never use and it's to left hand. It's right handed,

1032
00:52:57,036 --> 00:52:58,836
Speaker 1: but he's left hand, and he's just gonna make it work,

1033
00:52:58,876 --> 00:53:01,676
Speaker 1: you know. And it's like, but it's but this is

1034
00:53:02,196 --> 00:53:04,556
Speaker 1: not wrong, it's just different. It's it's it's rather, it's

1035
00:53:04,716 --> 00:53:08,076
Speaker 1: just a submission. It's I'm gonna meet it where it's

1036
00:53:08,116 --> 00:53:09,036
Speaker 1: at that guitar.

1037
00:53:09,196 --> 00:53:11,556
Speaker 2: Well, I that just happens to be my interest. I

1038
00:53:11,556 --> 00:53:14,596
Speaker 2: don't think it's right for necessarily obviously I'm for everybody.

1039
00:53:14,996 --> 00:53:17,196
Speaker 2: But but but but there's I think also just a

1040
00:53:17,316 --> 00:53:19,276
Speaker 2: point of clarity too, because you make a great point.

1041
00:53:19,596 --> 00:53:22,116
Speaker 2: It's not to count, you know, to to take myself

1042
00:53:22,156 --> 00:53:23,676
Speaker 2: out of the equation and say, I'm just trying to

1043
00:53:23,716 --> 00:53:25,756
Speaker 2: make the guitar sound great. I'm a big part of it,

1044
00:53:26,476 --> 00:53:30,236
Speaker 2: but as far as the marriage of the two, so

1045
00:53:30,316 --> 00:53:32,916
Speaker 2: you're not doing it from a place of I'm no

1046
00:53:33,076 --> 00:53:34,476
Speaker 2: good And as long I just need to as long

1047
00:53:34,516 --> 00:53:35,996
Speaker 2: as the guitar sounds good, it's going to be good.

1048
00:53:36,116 --> 00:53:39,156
Speaker 2: I understand that it's just it's just a it's a

1049
00:53:39,276 --> 00:53:41,956
Speaker 2: dialogue between the forces, that's all. And I need to

1050
00:53:41,996 --> 00:53:46,076
Speaker 2: be present for what's coming back. And and uh, and

1051
00:53:46,156 --> 00:53:49,636
Speaker 2: it's funny because we're talking about uh, you know, drummers,

1052
00:53:49,756 --> 00:53:53,236
Speaker 2: bass players, piano players, so all these are instrumentalists who

1053
00:53:53,676 --> 00:53:55,996
Speaker 2: play instruments that aren't their own a lot. This is

1054
00:53:56,076 --> 00:53:58,876
Speaker 2: not a novel concept. You know that you that it's

1055
00:53:58,916 --> 00:54:00,516
Speaker 2: not the I remember I was. I was starting to

1056
00:54:00,556 --> 00:54:01,996
Speaker 2: do this on these some of these shows with Zorn

1057
00:54:02,076 --> 00:54:04,036
Speaker 2: where we fly into someplace for a day and then

1058
00:54:04,076 --> 00:54:06,116
Speaker 2: fly home and can't bring all the equipment, so I

1059
00:54:06,196 --> 00:54:09,396
Speaker 2: just use backline guitars, acoustic electric, it doesn't really matter.

1060
00:54:10,156 --> 00:54:13,116
Speaker 2: And I remember doing it and it was so liberating

1061
00:54:13,156 --> 00:54:16,956
Speaker 2: because I started to notice that you don't need you

1062
00:54:17,076 --> 00:54:22,636
Speaker 2: don't need a great instrument to leave space, you don't,

1063
00:54:23,196 --> 00:54:25,276
Speaker 2: you know. And if my main contribution in these bands

1064
00:54:25,356 --> 00:54:27,796
Speaker 2: is what I don't play, and then it doesn't have

1065
00:54:27,836 --> 00:54:29,836
Speaker 2: to be my guitar. So all these things are. I

1066
00:54:29,916 --> 00:54:31,796
Speaker 2: just want to keep coming back to that just for myself,

1067
00:54:31,836 --> 00:54:34,436
Speaker 2: as it's always in service of what the musical act is,

1068
00:54:35,156 --> 00:54:39,116
Speaker 2: and it's it's really it doesn't none of it really matters.

1069
00:54:39,196 --> 00:54:41,156
Speaker 2: You just want to be present, but from a guitar

1070
00:54:41,236 --> 00:54:43,956
Speaker 2: playing point of view, from just being getting better at

1071
00:54:43,996 --> 00:54:46,556
Speaker 2: and I like rotating just so I don't get too comfortable.

1072
00:54:46,596 --> 00:54:48,196
Speaker 2: If I feel really good on one, I will pick

1073
00:54:48,276 --> 00:54:52,476
Speaker 2: up another to see if if my skills translate, you know,

1074
00:54:52,716 --> 00:54:54,116
Speaker 2: or if it was just because of that one that

1075
00:54:54,196 --> 00:54:56,596
Speaker 2: those strings are just perfectly dead and that's why it sounds.

1076
00:54:56,356 --> 00:55:00,276
Speaker 3: Good, you know. Will you switch positions from night to night? Yes,

1077
00:55:00,556 --> 00:55:02,276
Speaker 3: on the same song, Oh completely.

1078
00:55:02,676 --> 00:55:05,956
Speaker 2: I'm kind of into like any melody, I don't know

1079
00:55:05,996 --> 00:55:08,956
Speaker 2: how to exemplify it, but I'm a believer of If

1080
00:55:08,956 --> 00:55:11,156
Speaker 2: I seen my left hand down here a lot on

1081
00:55:11,236 --> 00:55:12,836
Speaker 2: this song one night, the next night, I want to

1082
00:55:12,836 --> 00:55:14,116
Speaker 2: see it up here more. And then I want to

1083
00:55:14,116 --> 00:55:16,196
Speaker 2: see it in the middle and just because you don't

1084
00:55:16,236 --> 00:55:18,876
Speaker 2: get me into more problems that I can get out

1085
00:55:18,876 --> 00:55:21,956
Speaker 2: of them. And there's a little bit of a masochistic element,

1086
00:55:22,876 --> 00:55:23,036
Speaker 2: you know.

1087
00:55:23,556 --> 00:55:26,396
Speaker 3: Don't be too comfortable when you were showing us all

1088
00:55:26,476 --> 00:55:30,676
Speaker 3: the different seeds. Oh yes, yeah, yeah, so on my

1089
00:55:30,836 --> 00:55:33,556
Speaker 3: bass anyway, they all have different personalities a.

1090
00:55:33,676 --> 00:55:36,596
Speaker 2: Thousand percent there they are, they are you, they're there,

1091
00:55:38,676 --> 00:55:41,916
Speaker 2: and then within that you have where you wear on

1092
00:55:42,036 --> 00:55:43,716
Speaker 2: the string. At least my keys on the right hand,

1093
00:55:43,796 --> 00:55:46,276
Speaker 2: I play it, you know, I notice a difference between

1094
00:55:48,556 --> 00:55:50,756
Speaker 2: and then if I move my hand towards the Fredbourg

1095
00:55:52,636 --> 00:55:54,676
Speaker 2: and then as volume goes down. That's my favorite is

1096
00:55:54,716 --> 00:55:59,996
Speaker 2: what happens when you get quiet enough is so in

1097
00:56:00,116 --> 00:56:02,476
Speaker 2: some way it got louder because we all listened, you know,

1098
00:56:02,916 --> 00:56:05,356
Speaker 2: but I played quieter, and to play quieter the big

1099
00:56:05,436 --> 00:56:08,636
Speaker 2: a big thing for me with shifting of tambers has

1100
00:56:08,636 --> 00:56:09,796
Speaker 2: a lot to do with velocity.

1101
00:56:10,916 --> 00:56:11,076
Speaker 3: You know.

1102
00:56:11,156 --> 00:56:12,756
Speaker 2: If you want something louder, you play it you you

1103
00:56:12,876 --> 00:56:14,996
Speaker 2: move through the string faster. If you want to play

1104
00:56:15,036 --> 00:56:18,276
Speaker 2: it quieter, you move through slower. We're talking incrementally, but

1105
00:56:18,396 --> 00:56:23,036
Speaker 2: that modulation of playing a fast line but moving through

1106
00:56:23,076 --> 00:56:27,996
Speaker 2: the strings slowly, that's when you get these kind of

1107
00:56:28,036 --> 00:56:30,276
Speaker 2: things that are kind of ephemeral, and they just I'm

1108
00:56:30,676 --> 00:56:35,876
Speaker 2: that very different than I'm actually moving. Quite the temp

1109
00:56:35,956 --> 00:56:38,436
Speaker 2: of the lines the same, but I'm moving way faster

1110
00:56:38,716 --> 00:56:43,356
Speaker 2: through it, and I'm and so that those interplays I'm

1111
00:56:43,436 --> 00:56:47,116
Speaker 2: obsessed with with string instruments, and in the fact that, oh,

1112
00:56:47,876 --> 00:56:49,916
Speaker 2: this allows me to say by biggest pet peeve, which

1113
00:56:49,956 --> 00:56:54,636
Speaker 2: is that I feel like there's sometimes there's sometimes a belief,

1114
00:56:54,756 --> 00:56:57,876
Speaker 2: especially in guitar pedagogy, that the string should sound the same.

1115
00:56:57,996 --> 00:56:59,356
Speaker 2: They should you should have evenness.

1116
00:56:59,596 --> 00:56:59,716
Speaker 1: Right.

1117
00:56:59,836 --> 00:57:01,316
Speaker 2: There's a time my life where I hunted that down.

1118
00:57:01,356 --> 00:57:03,316
Speaker 2: I want everything to be even so you don't, and

1119
00:57:03,556 --> 00:57:06,996
Speaker 2: and I increasingly I just love that they are not

1120
00:57:07,396 --> 00:57:10,116
Speaker 2: the same. No two notes are the same. We were

1121
00:57:10,156 --> 00:57:14,756
Speaker 2: playing in but I loub Leana in Europe with John's

1122
00:57:14,756 --> 00:57:17,116
Speaker 2: Orange Band. This is like a month ago and like, okay,

1123
00:57:17,116 --> 00:57:20,276
Speaker 2: we have an hour and seventy five minutes set. First

1124
00:57:20,396 --> 00:57:23,916
Speaker 2: song by high e string just pops off, say okay, great,

1125
00:57:24,276 --> 00:57:25,836
Speaker 2: And I'm sitting there and I know no one else

1126
00:57:25,956 --> 00:57:28,596
Speaker 2: noticed it, and I know no one else really cares too,

1127
00:57:29,956 --> 00:57:31,676
Speaker 2: and it was so I'm going to play a five

1128
00:57:31,716 --> 00:57:34,156
Speaker 2: string set. This is great. I've always wanted to, you know.

1129
00:57:35,436 --> 00:57:36,676
Speaker 3: And it was so.

1130
00:57:38,196 --> 00:57:41,596
Speaker 2: Slamming because without this, the e the duplicate and now

1131
00:57:41,596 --> 00:57:46,156
Speaker 2: they're hardly duplicate since they're two actors apart. But it

1132
00:57:46,396 --> 00:57:48,836
Speaker 2: just was I just loved it, and it forced me

1133
00:57:48,916 --> 00:57:50,916
Speaker 2: in all these other areas and Tamberley, I didn't have

1134
00:57:51,596 --> 00:57:54,756
Speaker 2: access to that thing, that kind of crisp thing, so

1135
00:57:54,876 --> 00:57:57,996
Speaker 2: you're you know, and I just I don't know.

1136
00:57:58,116 --> 00:58:00,436
Speaker 1: So I didn't get in trouble at any point through

1137
00:58:00,436 --> 00:58:02,436
Speaker 1: the night or no, Nope, I was fine.

1138
00:58:02,556 --> 00:58:04,316
Speaker 2: I got out five. If you asked me to do

1139
00:58:04,396 --> 00:58:06,316
Speaker 2: it again, I would be screwed because I kind of

1140
00:58:06,356 --> 00:58:07,396
Speaker 2: figured out some ways and.

1141
00:58:07,396 --> 00:58:08,836
Speaker 3: Then I I just that was it.

1142
00:58:09,276 --> 00:58:12,556
Speaker 2: But but yeah, tambour on an instrument is beautiful on

1143
00:58:12,676 --> 00:58:14,516
Speaker 2: the guitar especially, and I think the bass too. That's

1144
00:58:14,516 --> 00:58:18,196
Speaker 2: something is very cognizan enough. He can deal with, especially

1145
00:58:18,236 --> 00:58:21,716
Speaker 2: with walking lines and different registers, and when the song

1146
00:58:21,836 --> 00:58:24,876
Speaker 2: needs it, he'll go, you know, things will get intense

1147
00:58:24,916 --> 00:58:27,596
Speaker 2: and he'll move higher, but on the low strings so

1148
00:58:27,676 --> 00:58:29,876
Speaker 2: that there's room for me to kind of thunder around

1149
00:58:30,236 --> 00:58:32,036
Speaker 2: in the basement so to speak, you know, and then

1150
00:58:32,156 --> 00:58:36,396
Speaker 2: we'll switch places. But what strings you play things on,

1151
00:58:36,476 --> 00:58:38,316
Speaker 2: that's everything. On the guitar for me.

1152
00:58:38,996 --> 00:58:43,116
Speaker 3: Yeah, we were talking before we started this, and then

1153
00:58:43,316 --> 00:58:45,076
Speaker 3: I cut it off because I wanted to talk about it.

1154
00:58:46,596 --> 00:58:48,156
Speaker 3: And it kind of ties in the same thing. We're

1155
00:58:48,476 --> 00:58:53,756
Speaker 3: talking about abandonment of set lists. Yes, let's talk about

1156
00:58:54,076 --> 00:58:55,316
Speaker 3: as a gig with Joey.

1157
00:58:55,556 --> 00:58:58,276
Speaker 2: Well, you did this, we were on This was not

1158
00:58:58,476 --> 00:59:01,116
Speaker 2: terribly long ago, three months ago, four months ago. The

1159
00:59:01,196 --> 00:59:04,756
Speaker 2: band was myself and Horaey wrote and Joey Barron, the greatest,

1160
00:59:04,876 --> 00:59:07,436
Speaker 2: you know drummer. We just I have such love and

1161
00:59:07,476 --> 00:59:09,796
Speaker 2: respect for Joey and I always have and so to

1162
00:59:09,836 --> 00:59:11,516
Speaker 2: play together is a real dream, you know. And so

1163
00:59:12,196 --> 00:59:14,716
Speaker 2: Jorge and I know our whole repertoire. We know all

1164
00:59:14,756 --> 00:59:18,676
Speaker 2: the songs, and we're cognizant that to bring Joey into

1165
00:59:18,716 --> 00:59:20,996
Speaker 2: the fold, we're not gonna send him a Okay, here's

1166
00:59:20,996 --> 00:59:23,476
Speaker 2: a binder, learn all this stuff and do what No, no, no,

1167
00:59:23,596 --> 00:59:25,036
Speaker 2: we'll come in to you. We'll meet in the middle.

1168
00:59:25,796 --> 00:59:28,476
Speaker 2: And so my first thought was, Okay, we'll play standards,

1169
00:59:28,516 --> 00:59:31,796
Speaker 2: we'll play blue well, things that he knows. But as

1170
00:59:31,876 --> 00:59:33,756
Speaker 2: we got to the sound check part of the day

1171
00:59:33,796 --> 00:59:37,996
Speaker 2: and we're playing, I'm realizing that Joey is so present

1172
00:59:38,596 --> 00:59:40,796
Speaker 2: and everything. Hoy and I start to play. I like, well,

1173
00:59:40,836 --> 00:59:43,356
Speaker 2: maybe we could show him this. Within ten seconds, he's

1174
00:59:43,436 --> 00:59:46,556
Speaker 2: playing what I would consider the perfect part to it,

1175
00:59:47,116 --> 00:59:48,916
Speaker 2: and he said, Joey, had you know to Dooley said,

1176
00:59:48,916 --> 00:59:50,796
Speaker 2: I don't, I'm just listening. I'm just listening to you.

1177
00:59:51,236 --> 00:59:52,876
Speaker 2: I thought, okay, we're in the deep end. We got

1178
00:59:52,996 --> 00:59:55,916
Speaker 2: to really savor this. So I said, well, okay, I'll

1179
00:59:55,956 --> 00:59:57,676
Speaker 2: write up a set list. And this is the only

1180
00:59:57,716 --> 00:59:59,516
Speaker 2: time the whole day. Joey says, well, can I can

1181
00:59:59,556 --> 01:00:00,276
Speaker 2: I just say something?

1182
01:00:00,396 --> 01:00:00,556
Speaker 1: You know?

1183
01:00:00,836 --> 01:00:03,356
Speaker 2: Of course, Joey, what do you He says, would you

1184
01:00:03,516 --> 01:00:07,756
Speaker 2: be a verse to no set list? And I said,

1185
01:00:07,796 --> 01:00:11,276
Speaker 2: well it's no, it would would no. I've always kind

1186
01:00:11,316 --> 01:00:13,396
Speaker 2: of wanted that to do that, but I'm afraid. And

1187
01:00:13,996 --> 01:00:16,156
Speaker 2: he said, well, just let's just see what happens. Right,

1188
01:00:17,116 --> 01:00:20,196
Speaker 2: So we go out on stage and I'm for the

1189
01:00:20,316 --> 01:00:22,756
Speaker 2: only time in reason so I remember shake being shaky,

1190
01:00:23,036 --> 01:00:25,196
Speaker 2: you know, I was like a backed room in Portland, Oregon,

1191
01:00:25,276 --> 01:00:28,396
Speaker 2: and I was just like, oh no, and okay, I said,

1192
01:00:28,396 --> 01:00:29,756
Speaker 2: I would do it. I'm gonna do it. And so

1193
01:00:29,876 --> 01:00:33,716
Speaker 2: we go out and I I just really listened to

1194
01:00:34,076 --> 01:00:37,196
Speaker 2: the room. Okay, where are we And it kind of

1195
01:00:37,236 --> 01:00:39,236
Speaker 2: went against everything that I would typically do, but I said,

1196
01:00:39,356 --> 01:00:40,916
Speaker 2: we're gonna play You and the Night in the music

1197
01:00:41,116 --> 01:00:43,636
Speaker 2: kind of fast, which I would never go to that. Okay,

1198
01:00:43,676 --> 01:00:46,636
Speaker 2: we do Joey, I mean, okay, kill her next song.

1199
01:00:47,036 --> 01:00:48,476
Speaker 2: I'm gonna start this old one I haven't played in

1200
01:00:48,556 --> 01:00:50,996
Speaker 2: fifteen years. But I know Hojoor knows it bam cool.

1201
01:00:51,356 --> 01:00:54,196
Speaker 2: And though I was still scared the whole time, when

1202
01:00:54,236 --> 01:00:57,156
Speaker 2: it was all over, I felt this relief of I

1203
01:00:57,276 --> 01:00:59,196
Speaker 2: think that was one of the most honest things I

1204
01:00:59,276 --> 01:01:02,836
Speaker 2: could have offered and that we could have offered. And

1205
01:01:02,916 --> 01:01:04,756
Speaker 2: it also leveled the playing field in a way where

1206
01:01:04,756 --> 01:01:06,996
Speaker 2: it wasn't like we know my tunes, you're sitting it

1207
01:01:07,116 --> 01:01:10,356
Speaker 2: what it was. We have a life of music. We

1208
01:01:10,436 --> 01:01:13,596
Speaker 2: can respond. It's going to be cool. And I haven't

1209
01:01:13,636 --> 01:01:15,356
Speaker 2: looked back since every show did we just did a

1210
01:01:15,396 --> 01:01:18,716
Speaker 2: whole tour, whole European too, a different set every night,

1211
01:01:19,316 --> 01:01:22,876
Speaker 2: and with now with Dave and Horey don I love it.

1212
01:01:23,676 --> 01:01:26,116
Speaker 2: I love it. You just start playing, you just are

1213
01:01:26,156 --> 01:01:29,156
Speaker 2: playing it. Also, I think it also invites a real

1214
01:01:29,236 --> 01:01:33,436
Speaker 2: consideration of tempos, not like I said, I would play

1215
01:01:33,436 --> 01:01:34,716
Speaker 2: the song third, so I'm going to play it, but like,

1216
01:01:34,756 --> 01:01:37,236
Speaker 2: where's the room at? Where's my energy at with this?

1217
01:01:38,036 --> 01:01:40,236
Speaker 2: And I think that's a really important thing to consider

1218
01:01:40,316 --> 01:01:43,876
Speaker 2: because you have to occupy that space for the next five, ten, fifty,

1219
01:01:43,916 --> 01:01:47,036
Speaker 2: well whatever long your song is. I felt so much

1220
01:01:48,796 --> 01:01:51,596
Speaker 2: happier every night. I felt so much more ease, less strenuous.

1221
01:01:51,676 --> 01:01:55,396
Speaker 2: I wasn't trying to shove something into you know. So anyway,

1222
01:01:55,436 --> 01:01:57,996
Speaker 2: it got me thinking differently. But I think it holds

1223
01:01:58,036 --> 01:01:59,756
Speaker 2: hands with the music I like to play to begin with.

1224
01:02:00,196 --> 01:02:03,836
Speaker 3: Do you start thinking about what the next song will

1225
01:02:03,876 --> 01:02:06,236
Speaker 3: be before you and the other one?

1226
01:02:06,476 --> 01:02:06,596
Speaker 1: You know?

1227
01:02:06,676 --> 01:02:08,716
Speaker 2: I think it does occur that hey, this is we're

1228
01:02:08,796 --> 01:02:11,436
Speaker 2: here and this something will pop into my mind, But

1229
01:02:11,996 --> 01:02:14,436
Speaker 2: I'm not I don't hold to it too tightly.

1230
01:02:14,916 --> 01:02:15,076
Speaker 3: You know.

1231
01:02:15,116 --> 01:02:16,956
Speaker 2: There was a couple of times right yeah, middle of

1232
01:02:16,956 --> 01:02:19,036
Speaker 2: the song, Oh, I know exactly what's gonna come next,

1233
01:02:19,316 --> 01:02:21,276
Speaker 2: and then the song ends and you hear the plause

1234
01:02:21,276 --> 01:02:24,676
Speaker 2: and you look around and go, I was wrong, got it.

1235
01:02:26,556 --> 01:02:29,116
Speaker 1: That's one of my favorite things about seeing Neil Young

1236
01:02:29,436 --> 01:02:31,596
Speaker 1: is the same thing. No set list, and so I

1237
01:02:31,796 --> 01:02:33,276
Speaker 1: was like, what's the first song going to be? And

1238
01:02:33,356 --> 01:02:35,836
Speaker 1: sometimes it's like a twenty minute version of like an

1239
01:02:35,876 --> 01:02:38,036
Speaker 1: inca and like half the eye its disappears.

1240
01:02:38,836 --> 01:02:41,556
Speaker 2: That's where he's at. You know, we were done. I

1241
01:02:41,636 --> 01:02:43,796
Speaker 2: was speaking to that very point, like I would imagine

1242
01:02:44,956 --> 01:02:47,276
Speaker 2: Neil Young is Neil Young. You're going to get a

1243
01:02:47,396 --> 01:02:49,316
Speaker 2: hit of him on that day, and that's the that's

1244
01:02:49,396 --> 01:02:53,796
Speaker 2: the gift, that's a great gift. We were speaking earlier

1245
01:02:53,836 --> 01:02:57,316
Speaker 2: about this the time. I've been playing with Joe Lovano

1246
01:02:57,396 --> 01:02:59,276
Speaker 2: recently and we were talking a lot about I guess

1247
01:02:59,316 --> 01:03:01,316
Speaker 2: you would call har melodics is a way to say

1248
01:03:01,356 --> 01:03:04,316
Speaker 2: it from Ornette's world or at Coleman's world. But here's

1249
01:03:04,396 --> 01:03:07,836
Speaker 2: the distillation is that at any given moment as players,

1250
01:03:08,396 --> 01:03:11,796
Speaker 2: we have access to all tempos. You play faster, you

1251
01:03:11,876 --> 01:03:14,396
Speaker 2: play slower, you have access to all keys depends no

1252
01:03:14,476 --> 01:03:16,476
Speaker 2: matter what the key of the song is. But there

1253
01:03:16,556 --> 01:03:19,436
Speaker 2: there are these matrixes where you can I think all

1254
01:03:19,476 --> 01:03:21,876
Speaker 2: my favorite improvisers, someone like Paul Blay can kind of

1255
01:03:21,916 --> 01:03:24,796
Speaker 2: slip between these dimensions. You know, Keith can do that

1256
01:03:24,876 --> 01:03:27,556
Speaker 2: key chair obviously, Ornett, Don Cherry Charlie can do that.

1257
01:03:28,556 --> 01:03:29,996
Speaker 2: And I think I'm at a place in my own

1258
01:03:30,116 --> 01:03:35,676
Speaker 2: development where I'm just fascinated by what is actually the song. Okay,

1259
01:03:35,716 --> 01:03:38,516
Speaker 2: we're in the song, but within that I have freedom

1260
01:03:39,276 --> 01:03:40,996
Speaker 2: and I want to exhibit that and I want to

1261
01:03:41,116 --> 01:03:44,116
Speaker 2: challenge it and I don't and end it's I learn

1262
01:03:44,156 --> 01:03:45,836
Speaker 2: a lot doing that. So you can kind of start,

1263
01:03:45,876 --> 01:03:47,236
Speaker 2: you can kind of drop what you're saying before. We

1264
01:03:47,276 --> 01:03:49,516
Speaker 2: can drop the needle anywhere. But once you're in, you're

1265
01:03:49,556 --> 01:03:51,396
Speaker 2: in the good stuff. Don't worry. You know it's going

1266
01:03:51,476 --> 01:03:54,076
Speaker 2: to be you're, you're, you're, you're off. There's an offering

1267
01:03:54,236 --> 01:03:56,916
Speaker 2: at play. There's an offering at play always.

1268
01:03:57,276 --> 01:04:00,236
Speaker 1: If you're open to it. Would you pay something?

1269
01:04:00,396 --> 01:04:03,636
Speaker 2: I was thinking about this, Yeah, I'll play uh, I'll

1270
01:04:03,676 --> 01:04:10,316
Speaker 2: play you Northern Shuffle. It's gonna ask okay, all I

1271
01:04:10,356 --> 01:04:13,076
Speaker 2: can keep it short to I don't know how Okay,

1272
01:04:13,316 --> 01:04:15,236
Speaker 2: right here we go then.

1273
01:05:15,676 --> 01:05:17,796
Speaker 3: But the last three.

1274
01:05:38,076 --> 01:06:12,076
Speaker 2: But they be the mover, I don't.

1275
01:06:27,876 --> 01:06:57,236
Speaker 3: It's past and bird back.

1276
01:08:26,916 --> 01:09:14,716
Speaker 1: The h.

1277
01:09:43,276 --> 01:09:43,516
Speaker 3: Whoa.

1278
01:09:49,876 --> 01:09:51,196
Speaker 1: That's a real different version of that.

1279
01:09:51,356 --> 01:09:51,916
Speaker 2: It's different.

1280
01:09:53,756 --> 01:09:57,676
Speaker 1: What's amazing that that lick you do, that's like on

1281
01:09:57,756 --> 01:09:59,756
Speaker 1: the record, it sounds almost like a like a Markaball

1282
01:09:59,796 --> 01:10:00,396
Speaker 1: and t Rex.

1283
01:10:00,916 --> 01:10:01,476
Speaker 2: That's the choice.

1284
01:10:01,516 --> 01:10:02,916
Speaker 1: Like I don't know that anybody.

1285
01:10:02,636 --> 01:10:03,596
Speaker 2: Else but you would make.

1286
01:10:03,916 --> 01:10:05,156
Speaker 1: But it sounds so amazing.

1287
01:10:06,156 --> 01:10:10,476
Speaker 3: It's so you have such a distinctive character and personality.

1288
01:10:10,556 --> 01:10:13,796
Speaker 3: It's it's unmistakable, man, like you could hear in that

1289
01:10:13,956 --> 01:10:16,996
Speaker 3: this is as good as like a d N A test,

1290
01:10:17,076 --> 01:10:24,516
Speaker 3: And that's that's the highest praise I could offer somebody. Man,

1291
01:10:24,636 --> 01:10:29,916
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's unlike anybody else. I understand that

1292
01:10:30,036 --> 01:10:34,076
Speaker 3: you listen to stuff and understand the fundamentals of the instrument,

1293
01:10:34,156 --> 01:10:36,796
Speaker 3: but you take it someplace where no one else goes

1294
01:10:37,196 --> 01:10:40,956
Speaker 3: and and it's just it's thrilling. Man, it's beautiful.

1295
01:10:41,516 --> 01:10:42,556
Speaker 2: That means so much to me.

1296
01:10:42,636 --> 01:10:46,196
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you both really sort of laughing listening

1297
01:10:46,196 --> 01:10:47,956
Speaker 1: to that too, because a couple of days before I

1298
01:10:48,036 --> 01:10:50,676
Speaker 1: came out here, I was listening to listening to you

1299
01:10:50,756 --> 01:10:54,436
Speaker 1: play solo acoustic on something and I usually play acoustic

1300
01:10:54,556 --> 01:10:56,996
Speaker 1: just in my office and myself, and it was I

1301
01:10:57,436 --> 01:10:58,796
Speaker 1: My kids popped and they're like, we thought you.

1302
01:11:05,356 --> 01:11:05,756
Speaker 3: One day.

1303
01:11:05,956 --> 01:11:06,836
Speaker 2: That's so cute.

1304
01:11:07,756 --> 01:11:09,476
Speaker 1: Thank you, Julian, Hey, thank you Hey.

1305
01:11:09,516 --> 01:11:12,436
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to be thank you, thank.

1306
01:11:12,316 --> 01:11:18,796
Speaker 1: You, thank you, thank you label the club, Yeah, Don Yeah,

1307
01:11:22,476 --> 01:11:24,476
Speaker 1: thanks to Julian Lodge for letting Don and I share

1308
01:11:24,516 --> 01:11:26,396
Speaker 1: the stage with him at the Blue Note in New

1309
01:11:26,476 --> 01:11:28,876
Speaker 1: York and while we're at it, thanks so much to

1310
01:11:28,916 --> 01:11:31,636
Speaker 1: the Blue Note for having us. You can hear Julian's

1311
01:11:31,676 --> 01:11:33,476
Speaker 1: new album and Speak to Me, along with our other

1312
01:11:33,636 --> 01:11:36,636
Speaker 1: favorite songs from Julian on a playlist at broken record

1313
01:11:36,716 --> 01:11:40,716
Speaker 1: podcast dot com or in this episode description. You can

1314
01:11:40,756 --> 01:11:42,796
Speaker 1: also watch the whole video of this interview and other

1315
01:11:42,836 --> 01:11:46,676
Speaker 1: recent episodes at YouTube dot com, slash Broken Record podcast,

1316
01:11:47,356 --> 01:11:49,396
Speaker 1: and be sure to follow us on Instagram at the

1317
01:11:49,476 --> 01:11:52,476
Speaker 1: Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on Twitter at

1318
01:11:52,636 --> 01:11:56,676
Speaker 1: broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose,

1319
01:11:56,756 --> 01:11:59,876
Speaker 1: with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our

1320
01:11:59,956 --> 01:12:03,636
Speaker 1: engineer is Ben Tolladay. Broken Record is a production of

1321
01:12:03,796 --> 01:12:07,636
Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin,

1322
01:12:07,796 --> 01:12:12,036
Speaker 1: consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast

1323
01:12:12,036 --> 01:12:15,396
Speaker 1: subscription that offers bonus content and adthree listening for four

1324
01:12:15,596 --> 01:12:18,836
Speaker 1: ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple

1325
01:12:18,916 --> 01:12:22,836
Speaker 1: podcast subscriptions, and if you like this show, please remember

1326
01:12:22,916 --> 01:12:25,436
Speaker 1: to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app.

1327
01:12:25,756 --> 01:12:28,476
Speaker 1: Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.