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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from housetop works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey wasn't a stop to blow your mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and my name is Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 1: And we're gonna start with a quick question. All right,

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Speaker 1: I'll try to answers as fast as you can. This

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Speaker 1: is for everybody. This is the listener. This is not

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Speaker 1: a necessarily a meat reco question. Right, are you you

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Speaker 1: out there listening? What's the word for a stone coffin,

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Speaker 1: typically adorned with a sculpture or inscription and associated with

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Speaker 1: ancient Egypt, Rome or Greece. Answer sarcophagus. Okay, a lot

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Speaker 1: of you listeners probably knew that word. It does come

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Speaker 1: up quite a bit. I mean, we do talk about

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Speaker 1: containers for dead bodies a lot, an awful lot. I

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Speaker 1: wonder why that happens. But anyway, some of you knew

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Speaker 1: that word, and some of you knew it and you

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Speaker 1: were able to say it immediately you thought about it,

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Speaker 1: or maybe you thought about it for a split second

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Speaker 1: and you just called it to mind. Sarcophagus. Okay. Some

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Speaker 1: of you might not have been familiar with the word,

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Speaker 1: had no idea what it was, or maybe you just

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Speaker 1: didn't have any clue what we were getting at with it.

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Speaker 1: You knew the word, but you didn't you didn't think

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Speaker 1: we were heading in that direction. But then there's a

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Speaker 1: third category of you out there. Some of you knew

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Speaker 1: that you knew the word, but you couldn't deliver it

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Speaker 1: on command. So you experienced this feeling of knowing, this

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Speaker 1: feeling that you are just about to consummate the retrieval

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Speaker 1: of that information from your memory. The word was it

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Speaker 1: felt like it was right there, and you might have

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Speaker 1: made a noise. You might have gone, uh, I know

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Speaker 1: this and snapped your fingers like you had an itch

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Speaker 1: you couldn't scratch. And this is referred to in the

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Speaker 1: psychological literature as tip of the tongue phenomenon, when a

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Speaker 1: word is on the tip of your tongue, the feeling

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Speaker 1: of that tip of the tongue sensation is going to

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Speaker 1: be the subject of today's episode. Yeah, And it's often

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Speaker 1: abbreviated to t O t or taught. So yesterday I

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Speaker 1: did a lot of reading about tots, about tots. We

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Speaker 1: we will be talking about tots a good bit today.

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Speaker 1: But if you were stuck looking for the word even

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Speaker 1: momentarily if you you didn't call it to mind immediately,

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Speaker 1: and you weren't just completely stumped and had no idea,

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Speaker 1: but you were in that middle state where you knew

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Speaker 1: you knew the word, but you couldn't bring it to mind.

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Speaker 1: Stop for a second and reflect back on what that

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Speaker 1: inner experience was like, sort of review the cognitive journey

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Speaker 1: you traveled to try to find the right word. Before

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Speaker 1: you had the word, what did you feel did you

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Speaker 1: have a sense that you knew what letter the word

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Speaker 1: started with? Did you feel like you might have known

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Speaker 1: how many syllables the word had roughly? And once you

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Speaker 1: heard the word, were you write about those things? And

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Speaker 1: did you keep thinking of a similar word, something that

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Speaker 1: sounds kind of like sarcophagus within going no, no, that's

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Speaker 1: not the word. Here, we're going to do another one

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Speaker 1: so you can have a chance to think about it again.

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Speaker 1: This time we're going to do a proper name. And

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Speaker 1: this I have to add, this is where I experience

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Speaker 1: uh tip of the tongue phenomenon the most, almost almost exclusively,

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Speaker 1: Like I really don't encounter the word based one any

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Speaker 1: not much. But when it comes to the names of actors,

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Speaker 1: this is like a weekly game I play in my head.

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Speaker 1: Uh huh, And we should add that Robert and I

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Speaker 1: played this game back and forth a little bit before

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Speaker 1: we went on air, and I think I stumped him

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Speaker 1: with this one. So what's the name of the actor

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Speaker 1: who played Fredo in The Godfather? Answer? John Kaze Yeah,

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Speaker 1: John Kazale. He was in The Godfather, Godfather Part two,

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Speaker 1: Dog Day Afternoon, what else, the Deer Hunter. I think

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Speaker 1: some of these, some of these big, these big Oscar

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Speaker 1: winning movies of the seventies. He died young. He was

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Speaker 1: a character actor, and he's one of those people who

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people who like movies, who

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Speaker 1: appreciate especially you know, the critically acclaimed American cinema have

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Speaker 1: encountered his name at some point. Yeah, you would know it.

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Speaker 1: You would know that you had it back in the

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Speaker 1: in the casks of your memory somewhere, but it's not

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Speaker 1: easy to reach. Yeah, like we were discussing before we

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Speaker 1: rolled here in this episode, Yeah, he he died young,

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Speaker 1: but he was a character actor. If he's been a

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Speaker 1: leading man and he died at his age, we'd have

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Speaker 1: him on T shirts everywhere. But no, he was a

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Speaker 1: character actor and as a character actor. You kind of

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Speaker 1: have to have enough films under your belt, you have

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Speaker 1: to like he needed like another decade before he would

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Speaker 1: have reached the status of say of you Simi or

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Speaker 1: you know, Ron Pearlman or any of these other character

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Speaker 1: actors who have have reached the point where they're just

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Speaker 1: such a part of our cinematic experience that we cannot

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Speaker 1: forget them, right. And of course James Dean only had

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Speaker 1: a few movies, but leading Man there, he'll be on

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Speaker 1: t shirts, so there will be biopics about him. Here's

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Speaker 1: the weird thing, just to throw in, like a personal

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Speaker 1: one of mine. And this may not be in the

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Speaker 1: case anymore because I keep talking about with Joe this week,

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Speaker 1: but previously, Oliver Reid will come up a lot, like

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Speaker 1: I'll try and remember who's that actor who played that role.

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Speaker 1: Who's the guy who's the lead in the Devil's the

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Speaker 1: guy who can't sing in Tommy? Yeah, it was he

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Speaker 1: and Tommy. I don't know. I've never seen Tommy plays

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Speaker 1: Bill Sikes in a movie adaptation of Oliver, you know

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Speaker 1: that would that would make sense. He's been He's been

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Speaker 1: in so many things because I think his last film

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Speaker 1: was Gladiator, wonderful actor, did some great movies, did some

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Speaker 1: horrible movies that are in their own way great, and

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Speaker 1: and I've seen plenty of them. But for some reason,

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Speaker 1: it'll come up, like I'll be watching Mystery Science Theater

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Speaker 1: through thousand with some friends or just setting around thinking

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Speaker 1: about movies, and I'll picture him in his bearded, masculine glory,

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Speaker 1: and I'll try and remember his name, and it just

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Speaker 1: doesn't form. And so it's just like the phantom limbs

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Speaker 1: of my of my mind reaching out towards his face.

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Speaker 1: But you've captured the essence of tip of the tongue here,

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Speaker 1: because it's not just that you don't know. It's a

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Speaker 1: combination of not knowing and having the sense that you

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Speaker 1: really should know and you're just about to get it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And the weird thing about this, and of course this

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Speaker 1: is one of the challenges. We wanted to kick off

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Speaker 1: this episode with an example, and when we wanted to

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Speaker 1: throw out some examples, but it's it's very difficult, if

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Speaker 1: not impossible, to find the perfect example of of a

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Speaker 1: t O t or a taught because it's gonna vary

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Speaker 1: depending on an individual's you know, personal mind map. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: one thing scientists have found in studying this phenomenon is

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Speaker 1: that it definitely happens more often with words we encounter

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Speaker 1: less frequently, and depending on who you are, you might

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Speaker 1: encounter some words more often than others. Robert and I

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Speaker 1: probably would not be stumped by sarcophagus as sarcophag guy

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Speaker 1: by sarcophagus the word because, like we said, we read

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Speaker 1: and talk about containers for dead bodies a whole lot,

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Speaker 1: but some people just probably don't talk about that all

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Speaker 1: that much. So if that's a more a less often

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Speaker 1: occurring word in your day to day language, you're probably

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Speaker 1: more likely to be stumped by it, right, And the

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Speaker 1: same is probably true for actors. Actors that you talk

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Speaker 1: about all the time are really probably not going to

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Speaker 1: give you a hard time. But the ones that you

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Speaker 1: logged in your memory at some point in the past

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Speaker 1: and have not come up since, those are the ones

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Speaker 1: where it's really likely to hit you hard. Yeah, a lot,

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Speaker 1: especially with you know, like that guy. Actors they're sometimes

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Speaker 1: referred to as those character actors that have been in everything,

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Speaker 1: but there there maybe not. They're not even in that

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Speaker 1: Ron Pearlman, Steve the semi area. You know that they're

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Speaker 1: the kind of actor who always plays a cop. You know,

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Speaker 1: they always play a white cop in a film, and

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Speaker 1: therefore they just kind of completely all blend together. Paul

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Speaker 1: Marco and Conrad Brooks. Yeah, I guess see. I I

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Speaker 1: have trouble picturing them, but I'm sure if you showed

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Speaker 1: me their photos right now, I would say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there the cops in the Edwood movies. Oh yes, yes, okay. So,

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Speaker 1: so we should look at what the scientists and psychologists

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Speaker 1: of history have made of this tip of the tongue phenomenon,

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Speaker 1: because it goes beyond just being like a weird curiosity

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Speaker 1: of everyday memory. It it's sort of an interesting way

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Speaker 1: to think about what happens when we try to interact

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Speaker 1: with words and uh and and information retrieval in our brains.

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Speaker 1: So William James, the American psychologist and philosopher, you might

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Speaker 1: be familiar with him from the Varieties of Religious Experience,

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Speaker 1: great text in the History of Study of Religions. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's and he's definitely come up on the show before

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Speaker 1: in the past. Was he the brother of Henry James,

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Speaker 1: the writer? For some reason, I have that in my

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Speaker 1: mind that could be completely wrong. I don't know, but

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Speaker 1: if they if not, I like the idea of exploring

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Speaker 1: it as like a red con buddy picture. You know.

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Speaker 1: But so William James wrote about tip of the tongue phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: As far as we know, he was one of the

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Speaker 1: first people to really write about it. Robert, why don't

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Speaker 1: you read William James quote about this? Al right? He?

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Speaker 1: This is how he described it. He said, suppose we

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Speaker 1: try to recall a forgotten name. The state of our

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Speaker 1: consciousness is peculiar. There is a gap therein, but no

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Speaker 1: mere gap. It is a gap that is intensely active.

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Speaker 1: A sort of wraith of the name is in it,

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Speaker 1: beckoning us in a given direction, making us at moments

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Speaker 1: tingle with the sense of our closeness, and then letting

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Speaker 1: us sink back without the longed for term. If wrong

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Speaker 1: names are proposed to us, this singularly definite gap acts

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Speaker 1: immediately so as to negate them. They do not fit

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Speaker 1: into its mold, and the gap of one word does

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Speaker 1: not feel like the gap of another, all empty of content,

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Speaker 1: as both might seem necessarily to be when described as gaps.

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Speaker 1: I really like this way of picturing it, because he's

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Speaker 1: he's casting the negative space there the gap between your

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Speaker 1: knowledge that you know the word and the fact that

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Speaker 1: you can't call up the word as as a thing,

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Speaker 1: a literal thing, like the negative space is in its

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Speaker 1: own right, uh, and entity acting in your mind because

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Speaker 1: it negates the the other path when you know that

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Speaker 1: it's not this other word. You know, right when you're

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Speaker 1: looking for John Cazale, you know it's not Al Pacino

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Speaker 1: you're looking for. You know it's not James con So

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Speaker 1: the negative space there is doing something. It's just not

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Speaker 1: leading you to John Kasale exactly. It's like there is

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Speaker 1: a there is a silhouette, there is an outline, there

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Speaker 1: is a shape there, and you know what, you know

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Speaker 1: that certain things are not going to fit in that shape. Okay,

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Speaker 1: speaking of that guy. Actors, how about this one. Who's

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Speaker 1: the actor who played Nancy's dad in a Nightmare on

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Speaker 1: Elm Street? Answer? Who's John Saxon? Of course, the great

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Speaker 1: John Saxon. Now you submitted that question and answer, But

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Speaker 1: do you think it would have stumped you? If you hadn't,

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Speaker 1: it would not have stumped me. Um, this was very

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Speaker 1: much one Unlike Oliver read, I know John Saxson when

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Speaker 1: I see him, and like the John Saxson. I guess

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Speaker 1: it's just more of a singular name. It sticks out more,

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Speaker 1: whereas Oliver read even though Oliver Reid was very much

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Speaker 1: one of a kind, he name is a little Uh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it's a little British e. I don't know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: John Saxon to me, I think i'd know him better

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Speaker 1: from Enter the Dragon, where he plays the most boring

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Speaker 1: of all the fighters. He does play the most boring

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Speaker 1: about the fighter thing. He doesn't even really fight all

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Speaker 1: that hard. It just kind of happens to be in

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Speaker 1: the right place at the right time, doesn't it. John

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Speaker 1: Saxon in a nutshell? Okay, So back to William James.

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Speaker 1: So we said William James was the first person to

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Speaker 1: really describe the sensation that we know about, but he

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Speaker 1: didn't call it tip of the tongue phenomenon. The name,

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Speaker 1: as far as we know, just comes from regular language, right,

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Speaker 1: that's colloquial usage. Yeah, it's It's apparently a universal thing. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In particular, we were looking at the nineteen and ninety

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Speaker 1: nine paper Sparkling at the End of the Tongue, the

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Speaker 1: ideology of tip of the tongue phenomenology, and what they

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Speaker 1: did is they surveyed fifty one language and they found

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Speaker 1: that forty five of them. So it's about expressed the

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Speaker 1: feeling of temporary inaccessibility with the same tongue metaphor here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so you might see this in terms of having

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Speaker 1: the word on your tongue or at the back of

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Speaker 1: your tongue or in the mouth or in the throat

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Speaker 1: or something. Uh. The one that's in the title of

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Speaker 1: that paper, sparkling at the end of the tongue is

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Speaker 1: I should say, it's worth noting that that expression comes

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Speaker 1: from Korean and that's just pure wildfire. It's so good,

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Speaker 1: sparkling at the end of the tongue. Yeah, that that

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Speaker 1: kind of draws back to that that the description from

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Speaker 1: James that it's wraith like, you know, this is supernatural

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Speaker 1: energy to it. Interestingly, enough, of the the languages surveyed here,

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Speaker 1: American Sign language, Icelandic to sub Saharan African languages, and

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Speaker 1: Indonesian do not use the tongue metaphor. Now, Additionally, five languages, Cantonese, Mandarin, Hindijasa,

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Speaker 1: and Ebo use the related expression in the mouth to

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Speaker 1: describe the experience. The Japanese use the expression out of

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Speaker 1: the throat and uh. And some use multiple metaphors, so

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Speaker 1: you have the tongue, but then you have another one

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Speaker 1: in use as well, with the French being in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: the most exciting because they use both the tip of

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Speaker 1: the tongue and hole in my head. Yeah, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's it's like I almost have it, but there's a

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Speaker 1: hole in my head. And it's I guess the thought

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Speaker 1: like flew out that the word just flew out of

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Speaker 1: my head and I cannot grasp it. Oh, that adds

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Speaker 1: a whole new meaning to I need to think of

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Speaker 1: John Kazale like I need a hole in my head. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's interesting. Uh And certainly one of those

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Speaker 1: where you you know, you start thinking of languages is

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Speaker 1: kind of like little ecosystems of symbolism and metaphor and

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Speaker 1: if you uh and and and some of those ideas

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Speaker 1: are universal, some of them are confined to a number

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Speaker 1: of ecosystems, and some seem to be just perfectly encapsulated

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Speaker 1: within that particular language. Yeah, totally. So we're gonna come

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Speaker 1: back to that paper in a minute, but I do

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Speaker 1: want to go back and mention that there's sort of

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Speaker 1: a landmark paper in the study of tip of the

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Speaker 1: tongue phenomenon that came in nineteen sixty six by Roger

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Speaker 1: Brown and David McNeil, and this was just called the

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Speaker 1: Tip of the Tongue Phenomenon published in the Journal of

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Speaker 1: Verbal Learning and Verbal Behavior. And these guys made some

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Speaker 1: of the first systematic observations of what happens during a

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Speaker 1: tip of the tongue state in an experimental setting. They

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Speaker 1: define tip of the tongue is a failure to recall

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Speaker 1: a word of which one has knowledge, again bringing these

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Speaker 1: distinctions of sort of stages of knowledge into things. So

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Speaker 1: what does it mean when you think you remember something

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Speaker 1: but you can't bring it to mind. And one of

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Speaker 1: the things they point out at the outside of their

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Speaker 1: paper is that it's interesting, like, if you can't recall

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Speaker 1: the word, how do we know that the person experiencing

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Speaker 1: a tip of the tongue state a tot if you will,

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Speaker 1: actually has knowledge of the word. What if it's just

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Speaker 1: an illusion that you actually have knowledge of the word.

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Speaker 1: And they think that's not the case, because you can

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Speaker 1: observe a couple of things. One of the things is

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Speaker 1: that sometimes people resolve the tip of the tongue state

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Speaker 1: by themselves. So you might sit there for a minute

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Speaker 1: going like, oh, oh, oh, I know it, I know it,

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Speaker 1: and then figure it out and then so that sort

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Speaker 1: of proves that you did actually have it. It's not

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Speaker 1: just a phenomenal illusion that you would have access to

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Speaker 1: the word. And then there are other cases where the

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Speaker 1: purpose where the person, even if they don't resolve the

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Speaker 1: state by themselves, they can recognize the word once it's

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Speaker 1: presented from the outside, and they can negate other words.

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Speaker 1: So even if you couldn't come up with John Kazale,

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Speaker 1: you could say no, not that actor, not that actor. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: You could say no to all the other names in

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Speaker 1: the world. Someone says John Cassavetti's and you you instantly

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Speaker 1: no is no, it's not John Cassavetti's. But that might

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Speaker 1: be enough to say, oh, it's John Kazale, right. And

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Speaker 1: that's one of the other things that's really interesting and

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Speaker 1: study of the tip of the tongue phenomenon is that

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Speaker 1: certain clues related to the sound of the word can

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Speaker 1: trigger it. They can send you down the right path.

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Speaker 1: But I like this description they give what the tip

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Speaker 1: of the tongue state is, like they say, the signs

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Speaker 1: of it were unmistakable. He would appear to be in

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Speaker 1: mild torment, something like the brink of a sneeze, and

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Speaker 1: if he found the word, his relief was considerable. I

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Speaker 1: think we've we've all found ourselves in a situation. I

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Speaker 1: don't know I'm speaking for everybody here, but speak for myself.

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Speaker 1: I have certainly found myself in a situation where a

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Speaker 1: a tot is induced in my own mind, and in

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Speaker 1: a conversation with several people. Everyone else moves on to

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Speaker 1: something a little more and more just, and I'm still

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Speaker 1: in that tot, and so everything's just going on around me.

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Speaker 1: And then I resolved the tot, and then I disturbed

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Speaker 1: the conversation again by saying I was don knots don

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Speaker 1: Knots played Barney five or whatever the top mind and

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Speaker 1: nobody else knows what you're talking about. Everybody else has

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Speaker 1: totally forgotten this what what has actually been just a

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Speaker 1: situation of mental anguish for me for you know, a

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Speaker 1: few seconds anyway. Yeah, Okay, so I think we've we

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Speaker 1: we sort of described the phenomenon. Now. It's it's these

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Speaker 1: two main features inability to recall a word or phrase,

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Speaker 1: and then the subjective sensation that recall is imminent, it's inbound,

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Speaker 1: You're just about to have it. But one of the

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Speaker 1: really interesting things about this subject is thinking about what

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Speaker 1: broader implications this has for how we understand language working

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Speaker 1: in the brain, Like, how does the retrieval of a

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Speaker 1: word happen when you're putting together the language you speak?

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Speaker 1: Just consider this for a second. Usually speaking happens so

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Speaker 1: fast you don't have time to analyze it. When you

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Speaker 1: go to speak a sentence, where do your words come from?

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Speaker 1: One of the creepiest things is how little awareness we

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Speaker 1: really seem to have of how language comes out of us.

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Speaker 1: So I start speaking a sentence, and the sentence happens,

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Speaker 1: but I don't really know how it happened. I'm not

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Speaker 1: consciously aware of choosing each and every one of the

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Speaker 1: words I use from some kind of dictionary in my

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Speaker 1: brain as I go along. Uh, it just sort of

341
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:57,919
Speaker 1: happens and then it's out, and I don't know what

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Speaker 1: happened in between. But it's only really in that tip

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Speaker 1: of the tongue state. By contrast, that the mystery of

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Speaker 1: the regular fluidity of language becomes so clear and so

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Speaker 1: starkly weird. And it is weird, isn't it, Like I

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Speaker 1: I can't help but think now about the difference between

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Speaker 1: um my, my, my spoken use of language and my

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Speaker 1: written use of language, and not just in the fact,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the obvious fact that with written language

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Speaker 1: one has the opportunity to revise and uh and shift

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Speaker 1: things around and tweak it until you get in an

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Speaker 1: exact form you want. But just my, you know, by

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Speaker 1: the moment, my real time use of language, I feel

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Speaker 1: is rather different in both the spoken in the written form. Yeah, yeah,

355
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Speaker 1: I think that's totally true. And in fact, I think

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Speaker 1: I have more of the sensation of consciously dealing with

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Speaker 1: something like a mental dictionary when I'm writing than when

358
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Speaker 1: I'm talking. When i'm talking, it feels much more mysterious

359
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,639
Speaker 1: and obscure to me where the words come from. Yeah, Like,

360
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Speaker 1: when I'm writing, there's like a little guy in my

361
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Speaker 1: head and he's going into a little library and saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think we'll have this word and this

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00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:07,600
Speaker 1: word and this word, these are the ones we're going

364
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Speaker 1: to use, Whereas when I'm speaking, it's more like a

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Speaker 1: scene from a like a submarine movie. But like, all right,

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Speaker 1: let's get the torpedoes in there. We've got to go.

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00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,760
Speaker 1: We've got to go. He has to somehow express what

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Speaker 1: he wants on his sandwich. Is that the right word?

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00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,120
Speaker 1: I don't care. Get it out there, because these sandwiches

370
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,680
Speaker 1: have to happen and the sentences out before you even

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Speaker 1: know what happened. And then you may have had some

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00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 1: Freudian slips. You mentioned weird body organs that you didn't

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Speaker 1: mean to why why, I don't know the Freudian slip,

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00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,920
Speaker 1: and another area worthy of consideration, you know, I feel

375
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,440
Speaker 1: like we really should come up with our own proprietary

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00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,119
Speaker 1: expression for tip of the tongue, states. I don't know

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00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:46,840
Speaker 1: exactly what it should be. Maybe we'll think about it

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00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,080
Speaker 1: by the end of the episode. But I do want

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00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:53,200
Speaker 1: to mention that in there was a paper we looked

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Speaker 1: at that that had It was called a Review of

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Speaker 1: the Tip of the Tongue Experience in Psychological Bulletin by

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Speaker 1: Alan sp Around, And this is just a helpful way

383
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Speaker 1: to quickly summarize some quick findings since that nineteen sixty

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Speaker 1: six paper that are on the table about what what's

385
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:10,560
Speaker 1: the deal with tip of the tongue? Well, what does

386
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,119
Speaker 1: science found out. They found that one, it's a nearly

387
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,960
Speaker 1: universal experience. Pretty much everybody experiences it. Number two. On average,

388
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,840
Speaker 1: it occurs about once a week for people. I feel

389
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,639
Speaker 1: like that sounds kind of low. It does we when

390
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,960
Speaker 1: we just triggered it, like at least half a dozen

391
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,680
Speaker 1: times for each of us in It may be unusual

392
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,240
Speaker 1: in US because we spend way more time talking about

393
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Speaker 1: movies that are full of barely recognizable actors that we

394
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,359
Speaker 1: feel like lots of forgettable names. Yeah. Um, the number

395
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 1: three they say it increases with age. The number four,

396
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,560
Speaker 1: it's frequently elicited by proper names. It's so probably more

397
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,479
Speaker 1: often than dictionary words. It's you're going to be searching

398
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Speaker 1: for who was that actor, who was that famous person?

399
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 1: Because these were these names are not necessarily part of

400
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,160
Speaker 1: your vocabulary and your Yeah, and it's it's I feel

401
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 1: like it's going to be more memorable than your attempting

402
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,000
Speaker 1: use a word or recognize a word that exists kind

403
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 1: of outside of your standard palette. Yeah. So, fifth observation

404
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 1: is it often enables access to the target words. First letter.

405
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,040
Speaker 1: There's a really common experience. You you're in a tip

406
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 1: of the tongue state. You can't remember the word, but

407
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,399
Speaker 1: you can remember what it starts with. Yeah, Like I

408
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 1: don't remember what those really weird pyramid things are that

409
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 1: they had in the ancient world, but they began with

410
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 1: a Z. What were they? What was it? And then

411
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:29,640
Speaker 1: you remember zigguratt, Yeah, ziggy star dust, Yeah, I wanted

412
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 1: the too, Okay. Six These the tip of the tongue

413
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 1: states are often accompanied by words related to the target. Again,

414
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 1: you can come up with ziggy star dust, but not

415
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 1: ziggaratte right, Or if it's you're trying to remember that characters,

416
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 1: that character actor's name, you'll remember every film he was

417
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,120
Speaker 1: in and maybe some of the characters that he played. Yeah,

418
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 1: and then the final thing is uh. The tip of

419
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 1: the tongue states are resolved during the experience about half

420
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 1: of the time, so it's it's only about half of

421
00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 1: the time that it's just unresolved anguish. You just end

422
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 1: in torture that fades out and you get washed away

423
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 1: into the sea of experience and never find an end

424
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,719
Speaker 1: to your problem. Now as well discussed though our age

425
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 1: of of smartphones and just almost you know, constant internet connection.

426
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 1: I feel it has has has changed the scenario used

427
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 1: to if you couldn't think of of the of the

428
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,880
Speaker 1: name of of an actor, like you just had to

429
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 1: maybe go home and look through your old film magazines

430
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 1: or ask around until somebody identified Fredo for you. But

431
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 1: now you're just a click away. So it just comes

432
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: down to, like how long am I willing to suffer

433
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 1: I find myself in this very scenario. Like sometimes there's

434
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 1: a sense of pride, like I'm gonna remember this on

435
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 1: my own. I'm not going to go to the smartphone

436
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,200
Speaker 1: because I should know who this actor is. It's much

437
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: more satisfying to do it without cheating, right and then,

438
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 1: But then other times you might be like, screw it.

439
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: I need I need to know. I don't care if

440
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: I'm driving a car. I need to know who played

441
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 1: the High Priest and beast Master. I have no idea.

442
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 1: See here's one where I'm not having tip of the tongue.

443
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,120
Speaker 1: I just I have no clue. He had a very

444
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: uh try to trying to He had his very pronounced nose,

445
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,919
Speaker 1: very hawk like nose in that film, and not David Warner.

446
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 1: He was in the sequel or maybe the third one ripped. Okay, No,

447
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,679
Speaker 1: I I just had no idea he really didn't know

448
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 1: one tip of the tongue. I completely outside my memory experience. Yeah,

449
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: all right, well, you know, shame on you for not

450
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 1: for not remembering the priest. But let's understandable. Okay, quick question.

451
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: This is a toy musical instrument that produces a buzzing

452
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: tone when a person hums into the mouth hole. Answer kazoo, kazoo.

453
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 1: No that one. I think that would have stumped to

454
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: me a little bit, Not that I don't know the

455
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: word kazoo, but i'd be I'd be like, wait, what

456
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: what what a toy? I'd be thinking of something else. Anyway, Okay,

457
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: here I got another one for you. So what's the

458
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 1: word for a chemical having a p H greater than seven.

459
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: It's the opposite of the word acidic, a synonym of

460
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: the word basic. You probably encountered this sometime in school.

461
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 1: The word is alkaline. Base is an alkaline. And this one,

462
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 1: this one threw me for a curve the other day.

463
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: But though I'm not completely sure of it was a

464
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: full on tot because I think I was trying to

465
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: remember the wrong word. Oh yeah, what was the word?

466
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 1: I can't remember? Because now all I can remember his

467
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: his alkaline. Okay, well we should look at these explanatory theories.

468
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 1: What's going on when you're having a TOT in your brain?

469
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 1: And here a big help is one of the papers

470
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, that papers Sparkling at the End of

471
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: the Tongue the ideology of the tip of the tongue

472
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: phenomenology horrible name, but very clear laying out of a

473
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: bunch of the different theories have been put forward over

474
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: the years in explaining how tip of the tongue states

475
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: could be coming about. And there all the explanatory theories

476
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: are are mostly grouped under two different umbrella terms. Right,

477
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: that's right, So we basically have direct access views and

478
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: inferential views. Okay, we'll start with direct access views. This

479
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: as an overall. Direct access views argue that tots arise

480
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 1: from sensitivity to the unretrieved targets. So, in other words,

481
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: the memory item in question isn't strong enough for you

482
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 1: to recall it, but there's still strong enough to signal

483
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: a TOT. So I like to think of this in

484
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: terms of a murder has taken place because there's a

485
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,199
Speaker 1: mystery here, right, there's a problem to be solved, and

486
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: this is like the witness saying, look, Officer, I glimpsed

487
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: the murderer and the shadows, but I couldn't quite make

488
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 1: them out. I can almost name a suspect. Yeah, I

489
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,959
Speaker 1: think this one. I'm gonna have a little metaphor here.

490
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: We'll see how it works out. But if I understand

491
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 1: this view correctly, I think these are the types of

492
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 1: explanations where it's like you have the starting point and

493
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: you have the ending point, but you're just failing to

494
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: make a connection between them, As opposed to this other

495
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: type of view. We're going to talk about the wrenchial view,

496
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: and now what's the deal with that. Inferential views claim

497
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: that tots are not based directly on an inaccessible but

498
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: activated targets. In other words, tots arise from clues. Okay,

499
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: so this would be like the detective saying I didn't

500
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: see the murderer. I wasn't there, but based on the evidence,

501
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: I can almost name a suspect. Okay. So in my

502
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: other analogy, if the first one was I have the

503
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 1: start point, to have the endpoint, and I just can't

504
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: quite connect them, this would be more like I have

505
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 1: the start point and I think I can find my

506
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: way to an ending point. Yeah, Like, it's kind of

507
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: like if you were faced with the John Cassale situation,

508
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: my understanding of this would be like, maybe I don't

509
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: actually remember John Cassale's name, but I've seen enough of

510
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 1: his pictures I can and I and I know his face,

511
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: and I know his roles. I should be able to

512
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: like I have Surely, surely I am the type of

513
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 1: person who knows John Casale's name. Yeah, I can put

514
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 1: it together. And in this case, I think, Uh, the

515
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: feeling of knowing the word that you experience is uh,

516
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: it's not based on the word being activated in memory,

517
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: but your brains subconsciously judging that it has enough information

518
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: to circuitously figure out the word. If you'll, if you'll

519
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 1: just give me a moment, if you know, you just

520
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: have a second. Um, So it's not the presence of

521
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: the word itself that's exciting you, but it's your unconscious

522
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: confidence in your own lexical detective powers to pick up

523
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: on your detective metaphor. Indeed, alright, so at this point,

524
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: let's break them out a little a little further here. Okay,

525
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 1: So under these direct access views, we've got a few different, uh,

526
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: different ones explained in this paper yeah. Basically, they center

527
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: on three three sub hypotheses. There's the blocking hypothesis. Blocking

528
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: hypothesis says that toughts occur when a retrieval cue prompts

529
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: retrieval of an incorrect but closely related word and we

530
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 1: realize it's incorrect, thus the blank. So it's like you're

531
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,719
Speaker 1: trying to remember John Casale's name, you remember somebody else's name,

532
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: You're like, no, that's not it. The blank makes itself known.

533
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: It's like if your Google Maps is constantly telling you

534
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 1: over and over to go to the wrong destination. You

535
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: keep going there, but you every time you recognize it's wrong,

536
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: so you just back up and start over, so you

537
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: never go anywhere. It's kind of like I like, I

538
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: basically said this sentence before it with different words. But

539
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: it's if I'm trying to remember Oliver Read and I say,

540
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: I want to say Rex Harrison, but I know that's wrong,

541
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: you know, like I, I I know the thing that's coming

542
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: to mind is definitely not it. Yeah, but I can't

543
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: remember Oliver Read's name. You have a path blaze through

544
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: the woods of your memory that's taking you to the

545
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: wrong destination, but it's just too well forged. You can't

546
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: stop following it, all right. The next one is the

547
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: incomplete activation hypothesis. This holds that taught's happen when we

548
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: can't recall the target word, but since its presence nonetheless. Okay,

549
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: so this sounds just like the basic failure hypothesis, the

550
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: failure to connect. You really do have the word in memory,

551
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: but you just can't quite get there for some reason,

552
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: some some strength of connection does not exist. Yeah, maybe

553
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: you're you're you're a little tired, you're worn out. Everything

554
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,959
Speaker 1: is not really firing at maximum speed, and you just

555
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: can't reach it. Okay, what's the next one? Transmission deficit model. Okay,

556
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: this says that tots arise from a multi component memory representation.

557
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: You retrieve the image, the semantic meaning of the thing,

558
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: but not the word. So maybe the sound, even the smell,

559
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: but not the word. Oh you mean, like the semantics

560
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: associated with the concept of the word. But what you're

561
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: searching for is the sound of the word, and you

562
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: can't do that exactly. So those are the three main

563
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: direct access views. Okay, those are those are the I

564
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: saw I saw the killer in the shadows, but now

565
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: I can't exactly remember his face, right, But what's the

566
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,479
Speaker 1: what are the detective views the inferential views? All right?

567
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: There are two main ones here. The first one is

568
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: Q familiarity theory. This holds that tots are based on

569
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: an assessment of the level of recognition of a particular

570
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: cue or uestion. What does that mean? You don't have

571
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: to actually have the memory items stored away. But and

572
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: this is my read on this one, is that you

573
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: feel like you should know it. So this is more

574
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: directly related to what I said earlier about inferential views,

575
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: like I feel like I'm the type of person who

576
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: should know that, and I believe that strongly enough that

577
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: I'm straining to remember it. Okay, But it seems like,

578
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: just from my uh naive viewpoint, maybe it seems like

579
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: that one would have a harder time explaining those cases

580
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: where you have a taught you feel like you're about

581
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: to remember something, and then you do remember it. Yeah,

582
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: It's like this was harder for me to like, it's

583
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: harder for me to to read this one and then

584
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: think back and try and feel like I and recognize

585
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: it in my own experience. I feel like the best

586
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: I can come up with is maybe like trying to

587
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: remember state capitals of states that I don't think about anymore,

588
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,479
Speaker 1: because there's definitely a point in everybody's history where had

589
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: to memorize all the states and their capitals, or various

590
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: other things like memorizing the pre to table, or memorizing,

591
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: you know, all the nations of Africa, that kind of thing.

592
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: So kind of thing you end up not carrying around

593
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: with it, but at some point you knew it, and

594
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: you know that you knew it, even if you don't

595
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,719
Speaker 1: actually remember it anymore. Oh, but maybe you're thinking you

596
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: can piece it together from other pieces of information in

597
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: your brain that are more readily accessible, Like maybe you

598
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: can remember the state capitals if you can picture a

599
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: map in your head. Yeah, or think of the sports

600
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: teams that are associated with it. I don't know, Okay,

601
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: that that makes more sense. And then there's one more

602
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: explanation under the inferential umbrella, right, Yes. Accessibility heuristic tots

603
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: are based on the amount and intensity of partial information

604
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: that remembers retrieve when they cannot recall a target answer.

605
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: So I remember everything but her name. I should be

606
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 1: able to remember her name. That's that's my I read

607
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: on this. So you the difference between a tot and

608
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: just not knowing something is? Is how much other stuff

609
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: peripheral to this word you remember? Especially if it's really intent.

610
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: It's like I can remember what her hair smells like.

611
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: I don't, or I can remember, you know, staring into

612
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: his nostril holes and seeing the hairs there. Why can't

613
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,239
Speaker 1: I remember his name? Why is this so intense and

614
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: yet the name eludes me? I should know this person.

615
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: I was trapped in a cave with them for three weeks.

616
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: We had to do unspeakable things to survive. Why can't

617
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: I remember his first name? That sort of thing? Now,

618
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,479
Speaker 1: the reason you couldn't remember his first name is because

619
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: you know what he did, do you? He he made

620
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: a burr hole in your skull, spose a small part

621
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: of your brain. But what's the word for that process

622
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: when you drill a little hole in somebody's skull. Well,

623
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: your answer, of course, it is prepanation in or trepanning. Yeah,

624
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: Or if you're a modern neurosurgeon, you might call it

625
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: craniotomy smarty pants, But we're we're referring to the stone

626
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: Age practice personally here. That's a good one because it's

627
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: a word that I bet a lot of people have

628
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: heard at some point, but you don't use it all

629
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: that often unless you're us. Yeah, yeah, it's come up

630
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: without quite a bit here, but and it certainly our

631
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: listeners may have it stored away as well, but otherwise

632
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: it didn't come up in the real world too often. Okay. So,

633
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: as we've mentioned, there are a bunch of different theories

634
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: that have been proposed over the years as to how

635
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: you might explain different versions of the tip of the

636
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: tongue state. But the real question, of course, I know

637
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: people people want the answer to is how do you

638
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: overcome it? Or maybe just how do you avoid making

639
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: it worse? Because it truly can't feel like agony. It's

640
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: a petty agony, but it's agony nonetheless. Okay, never fear.

641
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: We do actually have some news for you on on

642
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: how to affect your tip of the tongue recurrent states,

643
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: but it might not all be good news. Uh So,

644
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: so let's start with some particularly bad news. Robert, did

645
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: you know that the more time you spend in the

646
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: tip of the tongue state, the less likely you are

647
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: to remember the word the next time. This is crazy

648
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: because it makes because it's easy to all into that

649
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: thinking where I don't want to grab my smartphone. I

650
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: want to think of think of this up myself, even

651
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: if it takes me, you know, the better part of

652
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: an hour. I'm going to reach it myself. It feels

653
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: like that should strengthen the muscle, right, Well, I mean

654
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 1: there might be something to that, as we're going to

655
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: see from a study in in just a second. But

656
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: how many times does that process lead to correct resolution

657
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: of the tip of the tongue of state? A lot

658
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,479
Speaker 1: of times you just failed, don't you? Well, I don't fail,

659
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: you end up cheating. Well, that's the thing. I either

660
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: end up cheating eventually. But I feel like if I

661
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: apply my mind to it long enough, I get there

662
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: with actors names, because that's my sickness. But but yeah,

663
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: I can't think of a single situation where I've said, well,

664
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: I just can't think of who played who was Danny's

665
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: mom in Kubrick's The Shining Oh was she also Olive Oil?

666
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,720
Speaker 1: And the Robert Altman Popeye movie? Yes? She was great?

667
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, Okay, So there's a study from two eight

668
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: by scientists Amy Beth Warrener and Karen are Humphreys called

669
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: learning to fail reoccurring tip of the tongue states you

670
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: can already tell from the title that this is going

671
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: to bring some bad news for people who have this

672
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 1: petti agony of the tip of the tongue of journey. Um. So,

673
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: the hypothesis going into this experiment was that if you

674
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: make an error once, you're more likely to make it

675
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: again by way of what they call a quote implicit

676
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 1: learning mechanism. The more you fail, you the better you

677
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: forge that path to failure. If you go with the

678
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: metaphor we had earlier about blazing a trail through the woods,

679
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: every time you walk down the wrong path to the

680
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: wrong destination, that path just gets better and better to find.

681
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: You crear more brush out of the way, you make footprints,

682
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: you you trample down, and and it just becomes easier

683
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: and easier to find find your way to failure every time.

684
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: So how did this study work? They played a definition

685
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 1: game kind of like the one we've been playing, where

686
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: they read you a definition of a of a low

687
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: frequency word, what's the word? And when a subject entered

688
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: a t ot state, they were randomly given a delay

689
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: of either ten seconds or thirty seconds to recall the word,

690
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: and then after the delay period the experiment or would

691
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: give them the words. So if you're looking for sarcophagus,

692
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: you can't get it for either ten seconds or thirty

693
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: seconds at random. They then give you the words sarcophagus.

694
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: Oh okay. And two days later, the participants came back

695
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: to the lab to be tested again on the same words,

696
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: and some participants got stuck on the same words they'd

697
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: been stuck on just two days before. And strangely, the

698
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: results of the test showed that tip of the tongue

699
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: states were twice as likely to happen on words where

700
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: the subject spent thirty seconds in the tip of the

701
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 1: tongue state then in words where they spent ten cons

702
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: in the tip of the tongue state. So the longer

703
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: you spent in that state of saying I know this,

704
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: I know this, but not being able to call it up,

705
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 1: the worse you got at remembering the word in the future.

706
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: And in the words of the author's quote, we argue

707
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: that this longer delay in t ot state amounts to

708
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: a greater implicit learning of the erroneous state. You're just

709
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: practicing how to get worse And I, uh, you know,

710
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: one of the interesting questions I was thinking about was

711
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: what to do with this information in a general sense,

712
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: because I do certainly believe that you can practice yourself

713
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 1: to get worse at something. I know a lot of

714
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: people have a kind of, um, very broadly practiced, positive mindset.

715
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: I know I encountered this in writing workshops, where it

716
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: was just sort of the idea that there's no such

717
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: thing as bad practice. The more you write, the better

718
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: you're going to get. And I do generally, of course,

719
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 1: think practice makes people better at almost any craft or skill,

720
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: but not all practice is good. I I am personally

721
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: of the opinion that you can right yourself into a

722
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: rut that makes you a worse writer the more you

723
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: do it well. One one way that I was thinking

724
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 1: about this earlier is in terms of of doing yoga. Um,

725
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: that's something I can relate to since I practice yoga.

726
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, you can practice yoga every day, you can

727
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: go to a yoga class every day. But if you're

728
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,959
Speaker 1: being instructed to do a pose in a way that

729
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: is incorrect or is in some way like long term

730
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: detrimental to you, like you know, something where you're putting

731
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 1: too much pressure on your knee or you're bracing yourself

732
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: against your knee in a weird way. Um, Yeah, you

733
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: can practice something the wrong way and and ultimately make

734
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,439
Speaker 1: things worse. Yeah, in a way that you're you're not

735
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: just being unproductive, but you're literally backtracking your Your things

736
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: are getting worse for you. I agree. And so there's

737
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: a follow up to this though, that does have an

738
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: interesting tip we can take away. One of the authors

739
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 1: of this original study, Karen Humphreys, co authored another study

740
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: that came out just last year in with Maria C. D'Angelo,

741
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: and it was called Tip of the Tongue. States reoccur

742
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:15,439
Speaker 1: because of implicit learning, but resolving them helps. So they're

743
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: building on this previous research that said that speakers tend

744
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: to exhibit taught states for the same words over and over.

745
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: And they played this same game again, the definition game.

746
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: I'll read you a definition, you give me the low

747
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: frequency word, And they actually carried out six different experiments

748
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: in the study. They found a range of things, one

749
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: of them that they just replicated earlier findings about the

750
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: error state making things worse. What we were just talking about,

751
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: you can practice how to fail and get better at failing. Um,

752
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: you sit there in the taught state and you're just

753
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: getting worse and worse at remembering the word. But they

754
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: also found that subjects could decrease their likelihood of experiencing

755
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 1: this taught state on a single word in the future

756
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: if they were able to resolve taught state on their own,

757
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: as opposed to not resolving it or having the words

758
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: supplied by a third party. So, right, so if you

759
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 1: can figure out a way to to find that word

760
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: from from your own mind without cheating, you are less

761
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: likely to have the taught state for that word in

762
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: the future. But then again, I mean, that's kind of

763
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: not very helpful advice, is it, Like, just be told

764
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: you must solve this problem in order to not continue

765
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: having this problem. It certainly makes tots uh when you

766
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 1: experience them, feel more like a ticking time bomb, right right,

767
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: But it it sounds though like the the ideal situation

768
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: here is you need to make sure that you and

769
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 1: your your immediate circle of you know, family or friends

770
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: are in a position to where you're they're going to

771
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: help you get it yourself exactly, because fortunately they did

772
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: find that this works. They figured out this way that

773
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 1: the experiment or can help without negating the corrective effect

774
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: of self resolution. So you just give hints that that's

775
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: the way to resolve the taught state. If the experiment

776
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: or gives what they called orthographic cues, so basically cues

777
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: related to like the spelling of the word, this would

778
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: allow people to correct the bad retrieval pathway themselves, and

779
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: the authors conclude quote, these findings reinforce the notion that

780
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: the language production system is dynamic and continually learning from experience,

781
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: even when that experience is error full. Okay, well let

782
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: me try one out on everybody to to to experiment

783
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: with this. Who played the secretary in Ghostbusters? All right?

784
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: Can you think of it? If you can't, let's not

785
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: just give away the answer. What are some hints? All right?

786
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: What word? Let her? Does it start with? First name?

787
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:52,240
Speaker 1: Begins with A last name, begins with P last name

788
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: sounds like something you might boil water in answer? Any potts? Oh,

789
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: there you go. So hopefully that was less damaging to

790
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: your brain because we we we supplied a few hints

791
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,720
Speaker 1: along the way so that you could still get it yourself,

792
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: unless we got there before you were you were able

793
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: to say it yourself, in which case, I'm sorry we

794
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 1: condemned you to possible future taughts with anything, we should

795
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 1: have asked you to posit, but then again, we didn't

796
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 1: want you to spend too long on a data Yeah. Okay,

797
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 1: so it may seem like there's essentially an ascending order

798
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: of preference if you want to avoid future taught states.

799
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: So it sounds like the worst case is probably just

800
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: sitting in the taught state and never resolving it. You

801
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: don't want to do that. Better, but still not great

802
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: is looking up the answer, better but still not The

803
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: best is looking up the answer very quickly, as quickly

804
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: as you can, so you spend as little time as

805
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 1: possible in that taught state. But if you're on your own,

806
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: you know, unless you want to call a friend, that's

807
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 1: the best thing to do, right, And then, so the

808
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: best option seems like, uh, figuring out the name for yourself,

809
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: and if necessary, getting hints from people around you that

810
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: have to do with like what letter it starts with

811
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: or what it sounds like. This would be something worthwhile

812
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: in future versions of Siri. Right, so that series not

813
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: just answering your question, but series providing you a hint

814
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: so that you can get it yourself quickly. Interesting, or

815
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: maybe that would just be about being able to ask

816
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: a specific question like Sirie, what is the first letter

817
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,399
Speaker 1: in the first name of the secretary? And Ghostbusters? Oh, man,

818
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 1: if I would I shell out for an unlocked iPhone?

819
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,919
Speaker 1: If I could just get Sirie to do that? Maybe maybe? Now,

820
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: are there any other any other clear answers on ways

821
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: to avoid taught states? I don't know if we found

822
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,399
Speaker 1: any other clear ones. There are some confused ones. Yeah,

823
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,479
Speaker 1: like the coffee thing is confusing. Um like maybe drink

824
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: coffee or maybe not. It depends on where you look. Uh.

825
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: Where we were looking at two thousand fourteen paper caffeine

826
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: priming in the tip of the tongue evidence for plasticity

827
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,439
Speaker 1: in the phonological system, and I found that caffeine can

828
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: both increase and decrease the number of tots depending on

829
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: the experiment. This study found that caffeine might hinder your

830
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 1: short term recall of certain words, while past studies have

831
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: have illustrated the caffeine can perhaps help prevent tots. So

832
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 1: maybe we shouldn't use tots here because everybody wants to

833
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: increase their number of tots. We we should say to

834
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,240
Speaker 1: the tongue states, Yeah, well, you know, I like tots.

835
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 1: It goes back to childhood, when you're in the lunch

836
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: line at school, who doesn't wish you had more tots?

837
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: They only give you like seven, it's horrible. Well, the

838
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 1: thing is, now I am going to discuss them as tots.

839
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: So when I'm trying to think of someone's name, now

840
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 1: among you know what, I'm hanging out with people, I'm

841
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: gonna start saying I'm having a tot. Here, I'm having

842
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: a tot, and I can have no clue what I'm

843
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: talking about. Right. Another way to involve drugs, if you

844
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: might want to avoid tots in a in a cheating

845
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: roundabout way, UH is taking something like LaRaza pam. But

846
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: now we're not advising you take Larazo pam recreationally or

847
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 1: even to improve performance, because it doesn't actually improve performance.

848
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 1: It's not going to help you avoid tots in that

849
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 1: what it will help you claim the word earlier. It

850
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,280
Speaker 1: may help you avoid tots in that you'll be wrong

851
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: and you won't care. You're not going to experience that.

852
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 1: This is what they found is that when people are

853
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 1: on this drug and they get the word wrong, they

854
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: don't have this sense of I know it, it's imminent.

855
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:29,720
Speaker 1: They just say whatever retrieves. But just say uh. Rex

856
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: Harrison played The Secretary and Ghostbusters, and they never all, Right,

857
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: what's have another one? Joe? What do you got? Okay?

858
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 1: How about this one? What's the time and date? Happens

859
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: twice each year where the sun crosses over the celestial equator,

860
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: where the night and the day are the same length?

861
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: Answer Esk will acts, No, it's equinox. Escalax of course,

862
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: is uh a medication that you take when you can't poop, right, Esk?

863
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: Aal ax, Escalax a mythical creature, and escalax and a

864
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: scalax is a mythical creature that you summon when you

865
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: can't pick, and has the magical ability to help you pick.

866
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 1: I think the escalax comes from the Simpsons. It's a

867
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: it's a horse with the head of a rabbit and

868
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: the body of a rabbit. Okay, I was not familiar

869
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 1: with that one. That's a good one. Okay. One more

870
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 1: fact I wanted to talk about before we wrap up,

871
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: which I did think was kind of interesting, And that's

872
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: simply the fact that there is an equivalent phenomenon. Now,

873
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: you said that the earlier study found that there wasn't

874
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: a tip of the tongue expression in American sign language,

875
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 1: but there is a recognized tip of the fingers phenomenon

876
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: deaf signers. And I think this is really interesting because

877
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: when I'm thinking about what's going on in the tip

878
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: of the tongue phenomenon, there seems to be a disconnect

879
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: between the semantics. You have the semantics, you know what

880
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 1: the word means, or you know what the actor's face

881
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: looks like, or what movies he or she was in,

882
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: or something like that. You know, you have all the

883
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: meaning information, you just can't connect it to the word,

884
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: to the sounds of the words. There's a disconnect between

885
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 1: semantics and phonology. But in in in sign language, you're

886
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: not necessarily involving sounds. There, you might be involving hand

887
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,720
Speaker 1: motions and and different types of where the hands are placed,

888
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: what you do with your fingers, the movement involved in

889
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: the hand motions to gesture the name, and so there

890
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: have been observations and studies about this tip of the

891
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: fingers phenomenon, and I just thought that that was a

892
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: very interesting parallel. It seems like the tip of whatever

893
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have to be sound. Yeah, that's interesting. It

894
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 1: takes the same mental process outside of the sonic realm. Yeah.

895
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 1: Like one of the things observed about it is that

896
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: signers were often able to recall the first letter of

897
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: a finger spelled word. Isn't that interesting the same way

898
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: that you can usually you know, you you can think, oh,

899
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: any pots, Well you can't think of any pots, but

900
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 1: I know her name started with an a. People who

901
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: who deaf signers can do the same thing it started

902
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: with and then the hand sign for an a. Interesting.

903
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: There's a whole study about this the if you want

904
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: to look at up. It's called Tip of the Fingers

905
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: Experiences by Deaf Signers, Insights into the Organization of a

906
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 1: sign based Lexicon and Psychological Science in two thousand five. Anyway,

907
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: I find this topic really interesting, not just because of

908
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 1: the phenomenon, but because of what I brought up at

909
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:32,800
Speaker 1: the in the earlier section about how it highlights weird

910
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: things about the nature of language that we don't usually

911
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 1: think about, Like the one of the things is what

912
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,760
Speaker 1: people talk about in semiotics, you know, the difference between

913
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 1: the signifier and the signified that we just often don't

914
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: recognize that gap in between them, like the gap William

915
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 1: James talks about there uh that that we can so

916
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: easily come to identify a word with the thing it means,

917
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:57,839
Speaker 1: but the word is not the thing. And these these

918
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: gaps where we have the object in mind, we have

919
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: the face in mind, but we can't make the sounds

920
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: to make it highlights some of the weird mechanical nature

921
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: of meaning and its relationship to signs in our universe. Yeah,

922
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: it's like when the machine is working, we don't think

923
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 1: twice about it because we are we are the machine.

924
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: But but when when When there are catastrophic errors, that's

925
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: one thing. But these are every day, or at least,

926
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: according to the study we're looking at, at least every week.

927
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: We experience these errors, and it provides us just a

928
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: little insight into what's going on. I think these errors

929
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: can bring up interesting facts about our brain in the

930
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: same way that seeing glitches in a computer game can

931
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 1: make you understand a lot more about programming and how

932
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 1: the game works. Because you might be say you're playing

933
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 1: a computer game in some kind of three D rendered world,

934
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: and you're just having it as a pure experience. You're

935
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: in the world, you know it's all real, and your

936
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 1: characters are real. Being in the world is real, and

937
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: suddenly a glitch starts happening, you run through a wall

938
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: or something, or part your you know, your arm comes

939
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 1: off and floats free or something, and it suddenly snaps

940
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: you back into the reality that that none of this

941
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 1: is a true, organic, real experience. But it's all bits,

942
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: you know, objects and bits of code that are functioning

943
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 1: together perfectly well most of the time. But suddenly you

944
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 1: understand what all the different bits and shapes are, and

945
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: how they're made, and how they have to come together

946
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,919
Speaker 1: to create the seamless experience. Yeah, there's always something. There's

947
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: something kind of magical about like the first time you

948
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: walk through a wall and doom and you're standing in

949
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 1: the sort of know that the ether outside of the

950
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: of the game and you but you can look down

951
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: and see those hallways just floating into nothing. Yeah. And

952
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: then of course up above there's the face of John

953
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,879
Speaker 1: Kazee looking over all of us. Indeed, along with any

954
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: pots and don knots, a complete pantheon of of taught actors. Okay,

955
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: that's all I got. You got anything else? That all

956
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 1: I got? Um? Hey, but I know that everyone out

957
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: there has some experience with this. What's the word that

958
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 1: always sets you off? Yeah? What's that that one actor

959
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: that never comes to mind when you try and imagine,

960
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: try and try and remember their names. We'd love to

961
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 1: hear from you on all of that. In the meantime,

962
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,399
Speaker 1: check out stuff Toble your mind dot com. That's where

963
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: you'll find oh podcast episodes, videos. We have some cool

964
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 1: new animated things that are going up where it's a

965
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 1: little animated shorties that are clipped out of existing audio episodes.

966
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 1: There's one up on ants. We have one coming up

967
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: soon on Trepid Nation. Go check that out. Also, we

968
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: have blog posts there leans out to our social media

969
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 1: accounts such as Twitter and Facebook. We're blow the mind

970
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 1: on both of those. We are stuff to blow your

971
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: mind on tumbler, and I believe we'll blow the mind

972
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,760
Speaker 1: on Instagram. We're just getting that one up and rolling.

973
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 1: And if you want to get in touch with us

974
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: with feedback about this episode or any other recent episodes,

975
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 1: or if you want to let us know that thing,

976
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,879
Speaker 1: that thing that always sets you off, you just know it,

977
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: it's just there. I'm just about to get it, but

978
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: you can't quite get it. You can email us and

979
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: you may just have to describe what it is because

980
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 1: you can't come up with the word at blow the mind.

981
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: At how stuff Works Doctor for more on this and

982
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot

983
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: com