1 00:00:06,790 --> 00:00:08,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present. 2 00:00:09,110 --> 00:00:15,370 Speaker 2: Killer Thriller with your host, Alisa Donovan. Hey, everybody. 3 00:00:15,390 --> 00:00:19,110 Speaker 3: Alisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. Today, we 4 00:00:19,450 --> 00:00:22,590 Speaker 3: are going inside the mind of one of America's most 5 00:00:22,780 --> 00:00:28,940 Speaker 3: notorious killers, Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber. The film Ted K 6 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,620 Speaker 3: takes us inside the Montana cabin where Kaczynski lived in 7 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:37,070 Speaker 3: isolation while launching a bombing campaign... that killed three people 8 00:00:37,210 --> 00:00:41,290 Speaker 3: and injured nearly two dozen more. Using his own writings, 9 00:00:41,390 --> 00:00:44,779 Speaker 3: the film explores his rage at modern society and his 10 00:00:44,860 --> 00:00:49,820 Speaker 3: evolution from recluse to killer. Our guest is Sharlto Copley, 11 00:00:50,100 --> 00:00:54,020 Speaker 3: who starred as Kaczynski and also produced the film, immersing 12 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 3: himself in Ted's writings and filming on the actual Montana 13 00:00:58,010 --> 00:01:03,010 Speaker 3: land where his cabin once stood. Sharlto, welcome to Killer Thriller. 14 00:01:03,070 --> 00:01:04,910 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for talking with me today. 15 00:01:05,780 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. 16 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 3: I really, this movie is sneakily very, very compelling. And 17 00:01:17,050 --> 00:01:20,330 Speaker 3: I appreciated so much of it, which we'll get into. 18 00:01:20,390 --> 00:01:24,110 Speaker 3: But I'm curious if the filmmaker intentionally. 19 00:01:25,580 --> 00:01:30,020 Speaker 3: Made this film very, uh, the pace very slow at 20 00:01:30,060 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 3: the start. So we're actually really feeling like we are 21 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:40,110 Speaker 3: in nature and in the environment that Ted, you know, 22 00:01:40,150 --> 00:01:42,750 Speaker 3: sort of what he was fighting against, kind of like 23 00:01:42,770 --> 00:01:44,289 Speaker 3: what he was leaning into, you know? 24 00:01:44,950 --> 00:01:46,149 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. 25 00:01:46,650 --> 00:01:50,170 Speaker 4: Um, I think that was Tony's approach the whole time, 26 00:01:50,190 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 4: you know, right from the beginning, from the get go 27 00:01:52,450 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 4: was to sort of make it like a documentary. 28 00:01:55,320 --> 00:02:00,060 Speaker 1: And to really just let me live in the woods. 29 00:02:00,620 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 4: It was pretty crazy that we managed to get the 30 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,450 Speaker 4: actual land that Ted lived on and they built the 31 00:02:06,490 --> 00:02:08,590 Speaker 4: cabin back on the actual. 32 00:02:08,350 --> 00:02:10,010 Speaker 1: Feet where his cabin was. 33 00:02:10,710 --> 00:02:13,209 Speaker 4: So it was very much, the idea was to very 34 00:02:13,250 --> 00:02:17,870 Speaker 4: much immerse the audience into his world and in a. 35 00:02:17,870 --> 00:02:21,970 Speaker 1: More, I guess, arthouse movie manner, just live with the guy. 36 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 4: And to feel the environment was, obviously, the two characters 37 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,690 Speaker 4: are Ted and the environment in the moon. 38 00:02:29,150 --> 00:02:34,669 Speaker 3: It's very powerful in that way. And the idea that 39 00:02:36,030 --> 00:02:40,010 Speaker 3: you were literally physically on the plot where he was. 40 00:02:40,210 --> 00:02:41,950 Speaker 3: I mean, I get, you know, this is for a 41 00:02:41,990 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 3: different podcast, but I feel like very... you know, from 42 00:02:45,780 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 3: a spiritual perspective and an energetic perspective, that is super intense. 43 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 3: So we don't have to go there, but I just 44 00:02:51,910 --> 00:02:53,500 Speaker 3: feel like I need to say that out loud. 45 00:02:53,530 --> 00:02:59,090 Speaker 4: No, I mean, it was because there were still cans 46 00:02:59,310 --> 00:03:02,310 Speaker 4: of food that he'd been eating. You know, he had 47 00:03:02,350 --> 00:03:04,709 Speaker 4: his cans that he kept in one particular area. I 48 00:03:05,470 --> 00:03:07,410 Speaker 4: was looking at the exact stuff he was looking at. 49 00:03:07,450 --> 00:03:10,030 Speaker 4: His garden hose system that he had was still there. 50 00:03:10,070 --> 00:03:12,510 Speaker 4: His vegetable patch fence was still there. 51 00:03:12,530 --> 00:03:14,380 Speaker 1: Wow. there was like, I don't know what you call 52 00:03:14,430 --> 00:03:15,410 Speaker 1: those things anymore. 53 00:03:15,450 --> 00:03:17,230 Speaker 4: The American term for it, but like where you, where 54 00:03:17,250 --> 00:03:19,810 Speaker 4: you basically make a little underground place to keep food 55 00:03:19,830 --> 00:03:20,510 Speaker 4: and vegetables. 56 00:03:20,930 --> 00:03:24,970 Speaker 1: He had one of those that you crawl into. Um, and, uh, 57 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: and that's, was still there. 58 00:03:26,380 --> 00:03:28,500 Speaker 4: It had his old shirts that he'd used to kind 59 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 4: of seal it up with, but I was amazed that 60 00:03:30,740 --> 00:03:32,559 Speaker 4: that stuff was still there, but I guess, you know, 61 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:34,690 Speaker 4: the FBI was done with it. They didn't remove every 62 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:39,020 Speaker 4: single trace. And, uh, You could definitely, you know, there 63 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,140 Speaker 4: was definitely something going on. That's just the most method 64 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,930 Speaker 4: poem I've ever done in many respects. 65 00:03:45,590 --> 00:03:45,910 Speaker 1: Yeah. 66 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,010 Speaker 3: So you've said that when Ted Kaye first came to you, 67 00:03:50,030 --> 00:03:53,630 Speaker 3: your reaction was basically not, you know, another serial killer. 68 00:03:53,650 --> 00:03:56,010 Speaker 2: I don't want to do it. So what did you 69 00:03:56,090 --> 00:03:57,930 Speaker 2: read that completely changed your mind? 70 00:03:57,950 --> 00:03:59,870 Speaker 1: It was... Two things. 71 00:03:59,930 --> 00:04:02,310 Speaker 4: I mean, it was reading the manifesto because I didn't, 72 00:04:02,330 --> 00:04:04,810 Speaker 4: I remember something I was in South Africa at the 73 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:06,740 Speaker 4: time when that was happening. And I remember he made 74 00:04:06,820 --> 00:04:09,540 Speaker 4: international news. I remembered something about the Unabomber, but I 75 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 4: couldn't remember what he was. I just thought he'd like 76 00:04:11,940 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 4: blown up a plane or something, but I, I didn't 77 00:04:14,380 --> 00:04:19,430 Speaker 4: know anything about him. And so reading the manifesto changed, obviously, well, 78 00:04:19,450 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 4: not obviously, but changed my whole view on him and, 79 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 4: And I realized this isn't a normal serial killer, just 80 00:04:27,380 --> 00:04:29,530 Speaker 4: crazy psychopath who's just gone mad. 81 00:04:30,630 --> 00:04:32,630 Speaker 1: Although he was portrayed that way by the media for 82 00:04:32,650 --> 00:04:34,630 Speaker 1: a long time. Just this madman. You don't need to 83 00:04:34,670 --> 00:04:36,409 Speaker 1: hear anything more about him. Like we got him. Goodbye. 84 00:04:36,430 --> 00:04:39,750 Speaker 1: Let's let's not talk about him anymore. 85 00:04:39,810 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 4: But when I read it, it certainly made a lot 86 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 4: of most of it made a lot of sense to me. 87 00:04:44,420 --> 00:04:47,380 Speaker 4: And I thought, well, this is an interesting story. And 88 00:04:47,420 --> 00:04:51,270 Speaker 4: then I watched him speak. And what was interesting about 89 00:04:51,330 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 4: him speaking, one of the main reasons I got the 90 00:04:54,070 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 4: role is I could kind of pretty accurately imitate the 91 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 4: way he spoke and his voice and his way of speaking, 92 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 4: which is very. 93 00:05:02,580 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: Unusual. It's not what you sort of expect from the cliched, 94 00:05:05,660 --> 00:05:08,910 Speaker 1: quiet serial killer who's really standing and looking at you. 95 00:05:08,970 --> 00:05:13,050 Speaker 4: He was this high-energy, nerdy guy who was actually quite 96 00:05:13,130 --> 00:05:15,130 Speaker 4: interesting to listen to, to talk. 97 00:05:16,730 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: So I thought, okay, that's... That's interesting. 98 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 4: He was quiet and solitary, but also was able to 99 00:05:22,420 --> 00:05:24,860 Speaker 4: speak if you gave him a microphone. Right. 100 00:05:25,820 --> 00:05:32,349 Speaker 3: Is there something bizarrely seductive about that? Because he is 101 00:05:32,410 --> 00:05:35,610 Speaker 3: so smart and just exactly what you said, sort of 102 00:05:35,670 --> 00:05:39,529 Speaker 3: contrary to what we would think. And you've described his 103 00:05:40,089 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 3: diaries as extraordinarily self-aware. What did Ted admit about himself 104 00:05:45,820 --> 00:05:47,620 Speaker 3: that most surprised you? 105 00:05:48,310 --> 00:05:51,990 Speaker 4: Well, I guess the things that there were so many 106 00:05:52,070 --> 00:05:57,270 Speaker 4: things that surprised me about him. The real stuff that 107 00:05:57,330 --> 00:06:01,460 Speaker 4: was the most revealing, I guess, was his desperation for 108 00:06:01,540 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 4: female companionship and company. 109 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:05,260 Speaker 1: So there were. 110 00:06:05,180 --> 00:06:09,500 Speaker 4: Things like he so desperately wanted female energy in his 111 00:06:09,580 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 4: life that he sometimes when he was masturbating, he would 112 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 4: imagine himself. 113 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:17,380 Speaker 1: As a woman. 114 00:06:18,860 --> 00:06:22,909 Speaker 4: To try to feel femininity within himself. 115 00:06:23,850 --> 00:06:26,030 Speaker 1: Uh, it was stuff like that where you sort of went, 116 00:06:26,290 --> 00:06:29,670 Speaker 1: Oh wow. That's yeah. You really do need a date, bro. 117 00:06:29,730 --> 00:06:31,070 Speaker 1: Like you do. 118 00:06:32,210 --> 00:06:33,210 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. 119 00:06:33,570 --> 00:06:35,910 Speaker 1: Yeah. And there were a lot of things, you know, 120 00:06:36,350 --> 00:06:40,130 Speaker 1: actually I've, I was quite, and Tony Stone, the director 121 00:06:40,150 --> 00:06:41,810 Speaker 1: of the movie knows this. I was a producer of 122 00:06:41,860 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: the film. I helped it, you know, I helped raise. 123 00:06:43,740 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 4: The money and I really wanted to back Tony to 124 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,380 Speaker 4: do his version at the end of the day. But 125 00:06:48,500 --> 00:06:52,860 Speaker 4: I was personally a little frustrated because I felt, and disappointed, 126 00:06:53,260 --> 00:06:57,690 Speaker 4: because I felt we didn't really do justice to portraying 127 00:06:57,750 --> 00:07:00,289 Speaker 4: Ted as I got to know him and as we 128 00:07:00,330 --> 00:07:03,810 Speaker 4: got to know him in the movie. And there was 129 00:07:03,870 --> 00:07:08,150 Speaker 4: definitely the opportunity to go more into the humanity of 130 00:07:08,190 --> 00:07:10,890 Speaker 4: the man than we did. And we shot it and 131 00:07:10,970 --> 00:07:12,730 Speaker 4: I played it, but it didn't wind up in the 132 00:07:12,770 --> 00:07:15,790 Speaker 4: final movie for whatever reason, I think, whatever Tony's reasons 133 00:07:15,850 --> 00:07:16,790 Speaker 4: were of not. 134 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,700 Speaker 1: wanting to show that side of him. But there was 135 00:07:20,740 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: a lot more to the man. 136 00:07:22,140 --> 00:07:25,530 Speaker 4: I think our movie basically portrays him still within the 137 00:07:25,630 --> 00:07:28,770 Speaker 4: lens that most people see him, and most other projects 138 00:07:28,790 --> 00:07:31,970 Speaker 4: that I'd seen, seen him in. But for example, there 139 00:07:31,990 --> 00:07:34,900 Speaker 4: were things like when we went, we were shooting in Lincoln, Montana, 140 00:07:34,940 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 4: and we met people who had met him. 141 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: And most people were like, he was weird, he was creepy, 142 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: he was quiet. 143 00:07:40,430 --> 00:07:42,150 Speaker 4: There was one person who was his friend who was 144 00:07:42,190 --> 00:07:45,100 Speaker 4: the librarian and she, she really liked it. 145 00:07:45,110 --> 00:07:47,470 Speaker 1: I think her name was Sherry. We met her. 146 00:07:47,290 --> 00:07:50,950 Speaker 4: And had fascinating conversation with her. 147 00:07:50,970 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: I said, what did you, what did you like about him? What, 148 00:07:53,310 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: what do you remember? What did you miss? He said, 149 00:07:56,060 --> 00:07:57,700 Speaker 1: she said his sense of humor. He was one of 150 00:07:57,740 --> 00:08:00,700 Speaker 1: the funniest men I've ever known. And we would sit 151 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: and we would tell, he would tell jokes and we 152 00:08:02,740 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: were talking, we would laugh for hours together. I was like, okay, 153 00:08:06,740 --> 00:08:09,140 Speaker 1: this was part of the research. So we shot all 154 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. He could compose classical music. So 155 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:16,060 Speaker 1: he did that. He could draw. 156 00:08:16,140 --> 00:08:19,690 Speaker 4: He had a sort of real renaissance man aspect to himself. 157 00:08:20,710 --> 00:08:22,530 Speaker 4: He was kind of a, I would joke, he was 158 00:08:22,570 --> 00:08:23,830 Speaker 4: kind of a wilderness nerd. 159 00:08:25,290 --> 00:08:27,490 Speaker 1: You know, my girlfriend would probably call me the same thing. 160 00:08:27,770 --> 00:08:32,670 Speaker 1: So he was kind of this like weird alpha wild man, 161 00:08:32,790 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: but also a complete. 162 00:08:34,730 --> 00:08:37,530 Speaker 4: you know, nerd boffin with a, what was it, 169 163 00:08:37,530 --> 00:08:38,630 Speaker 4: or something crazy IQ. 164 00:08:38,670 --> 00:08:39,969 Speaker 2: Yeah. 165 00:08:40,030 --> 00:08:43,910 Speaker 3: So that, I mean, there's just so much in what 166 00:08:43,929 --> 00:08:44,430 Speaker 3: you just said. 167 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,179 Speaker 2: First of all, I do feel like there is, you. 168 00:08:49,980 --> 00:08:54,060 Speaker 3: Portray a full person and it's very poignant at moments 169 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,830 Speaker 3: and I feel the deep, deep loneliness of this person. And, 170 00:08:58,570 --> 00:09:00,630 Speaker 3: you know, I'm sure there's a fine line, there always 171 00:09:00,690 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 3: is a fine line between kind of glamorizing and exploitation 172 00:09:05,020 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 3: and really, you know, sending a different message. And I don't, 173 00:09:08,820 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 3: perhaps that's a part of it, like the fear of 174 00:09:11,100 --> 00:09:14,220 Speaker 3: kind of making him too human or something. But I 175 00:09:14,260 --> 00:09:19,070 Speaker 3: feel like you really do. There's that feeling of just 176 00:09:19,150 --> 00:09:22,850 Speaker 3: such deep, deep, extreme loneliness and how that is such 177 00:09:22,890 --> 00:09:26,949 Speaker 3: a part of, of humanity to be alive. Like we 178 00:09:27,230 --> 00:09:30,630 Speaker 3: deeply need to be connected to other people and, and, 179 00:09:31,250 --> 00:09:37,130 Speaker 3: It does feel like this is a very extreme direction 180 00:09:37,210 --> 00:09:39,860 Speaker 3: for a person to go, but it does show that 181 00:09:39,890 --> 00:09:41,460 Speaker 3: that's what can happen. 182 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was interesting. 183 00:09:43,300 --> 00:09:47,660 Speaker 4: I've always found it interesting that actors love to talk 184 00:09:47,700 --> 00:09:49,860 Speaker 4: about politics and who you should vote for and what 185 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,250 Speaker 4: policy is a good policy or not or whatever. But 186 00:09:53,670 --> 00:09:56,689 Speaker 4: I don't really think we qualify to talk about that 187 00:09:56,730 --> 00:09:59,230 Speaker 4: too much, but I do think actors are qualified to 188 00:09:59,350 --> 00:10:03,260 Speaker 4: talk about human nature because kind of your job is 189 00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 4: like learn about humans you studying humans right you're doing 190 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 4: a case study on human and. 191 00:10:08,660 --> 00:10:11,210 Speaker 1: My experience of playing somebody and. 192 00:10:12,590 --> 00:10:15,150 Speaker 4: Really going to live as this guy as best I 193 00:10:15,290 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 4: could is it was quite profound playing somebody with an 194 00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:24,859 Speaker 4: IQ of like, you know, nearly 170 and living. 195 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:26,140 Speaker 1: In his world, reading his diaries. 196 00:10:26,179 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 4: And you start to realize that one of the revelations 197 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,260 Speaker 4: I had, and I'll come to a point of like 198 00:10:32,300 --> 00:10:38,490 Speaker 4: connecting with people. There's a huge difference in the human 199 00:10:38,570 --> 00:10:42,189 Speaker 4: brain across people. We all kind of feel like we're 200 00:10:42,230 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 4: the same, you know, we're all very similar, but If 201 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,380 Speaker 4: I say to you, for example, there's a Kenyan marathon 202 00:10:47,420 --> 00:10:49,780 Speaker 4: runner just ran the London marathon in. 203 00:10:49,780 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: Under two hours. The man is running almost 22 kilometers 204 00:10:53,820 --> 00:10:55,220 Speaker 1: an hour. I don't know what that is in miles. 205 00:10:55,340 --> 00:10:55,939 Speaker 1: It's crazy. 206 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,969 Speaker 4: It's basically a maximum sprint for most people. A good 207 00:11:01,030 --> 00:11:04,250 Speaker 4: majority of people couldn't even sprint that fast at all 208 00:11:04,410 --> 00:11:08,190 Speaker 4: for five seconds. He's doing it for two hours. And 209 00:11:08,900 --> 00:11:10,459 Speaker 4: if you're an athlete or if you ever, you know, 210 00:11:10,740 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 4: most people would, would lose to him on a bicycle 211 00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:15,730 Speaker 4: if it was a flat surface. And we accept the 212 00:11:15,809 --> 00:11:20,550 Speaker 4: fact that there's a huge difference in physical capability amongst 213 00:11:20,630 --> 00:11:25,290 Speaker 4: homo sapiens, but we struggle myself included with the idea 214 00:11:25,350 --> 00:11:28,010 Speaker 4: that perhaps a guy who has that kind of IQ, 215 00:11:28,510 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 4: these massively high IQ individuals are living almost a different 216 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,490 Speaker 4: life from us. They experiencing things differently. They, they, they 217 00:11:37,670 --> 00:11:40,490 Speaker 4: are seeing themselves as above us because it would be like, 218 00:11:40,530 --> 00:11:42,930 Speaker 4: you know, it's sort of like you're reading an article 219 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,380 Speaker 4: about what you think about Ted or somebody says what 220 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,860 Speaker 4: they think about Elon or, you know, and it's kind 221 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,059 Speaker 4: of like, well, from his point of view, it's like 222 00:11:51,100 --> 00:11:54,650 Speaker 4: he doesn't care because he's in a different space. It's 223 00:11:54,700 --> 00:11:57,599 Speaker 4: like me giving advice to Sebastian Sauer. 224 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: On like how he should run. You know, it's like, well, 225 00:11:59,100 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: I really appreciated how you ran in the beginning, but 226 00:12:01,179 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: I feel like you're being a little bit, you know, 227 00:12:02,780 --> 00:12:03,780 Speaker 1: it's like, whatever, man. 228 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 4: Like Ted, when you get into Ted's head, that's what 229 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 4: you see. You see a person who is smarter than 230 00:12:10,420 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 4: most people around him, probably more right than he is 231 00:12:13,540 --> 00:12:14,819 Speaker 4: wrong most of the time. 232 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,420 Speaker 1: And this is true with smart people. Of course, the 233 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: flip side of that is the one time you wrong 234 00:12:19,220 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 1: can be absolutely devastating. 235 00:12:21,260 --> 00:12:24,380 Speaker 4: But, you know, he's smarter than most people. And so 236 00:12:24,780 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 4: that difference, you know, that ability of, you know, his 237 00:12:28,820 --> 00:12:32,250 Speaker 4: brain is running the marathon in under two hours is 238 00:12:32,309 --> 00:12:33,730 Speaker 4: separating him from people. 239 00:12:34,290 --> 00:12:37,530 Speaker 1: Yes. And you hear this with people like Elon Musk 240 00:12:37,550 --> 00:12:40,930 Speaker 1: talking about I'm unhappy. I'm not a happy person. Death 241 00:12:40,990 --> 00:12:42,870 Speaker 1: would be a relief, you know. 242 00:12:43,050 --> 00:12:47,630 Speaker 4: And it's like with that genius, with these giant people 243 00:12:47,670 --> 00:12:50,090 Speaker 4: that come along, from time to time. And I do 244 00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:54,969 Speaker 4: see Ted as that sort of person. They do struggle 245 00:12:55,170 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 4: to live quote unquote normal life and form quote unquote 246 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 4: normal relationships. They have this mammalian desperate drive and Ted 247 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 4: more than most understood that drive. He was desperate to 248 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 4: find his partner. 249 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: He talks about it. He went to a. 250 00:13:10,340 --> 00:13:13,219 Speaker 4: Female friend of his and he made a little dossier 251 00:13:13,740 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 4: asking her, what am I doing wrong with women? 252 00:13:16,660 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: Why can I not get a girl? And we shot 253 00:13:19,220 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: all this, by the way. That's why I'm kind of 254 00:13:20,820 --> 00:13:24,179 Speaker 1: frustrated that it's not in the movie. But it's heartbreaking. 255 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,950 Speaker 1: It had this sort of almost like Charlize's movie, Monster. 256 00:13:27,610 --> 00:13:30,569 Speaker 4: It had this thing of like, oh, God, there's a 257 00:13:30,610 --> 00:13:34,270 Speaker 4: human being under here. He loves the environment. He loves nature. 258 00:13:34,730 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 4: He sees this danger happening. He wants to fight for it. 259 00:13:39,970 --> 00:13:42,590 Speaker 4: and he can't connect with people, especially connect with women. 260 00:13:42,610 --> 00:13:45,870 Speaker 3: And, um, yeah, it was, uh, he really had those, 261 00:13:45,890 --> 00:13:51,790 Speaker 3: he had those conversations with the friend about like, so the, 262 00:13:51,890 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 3: the character in that's in the film that is she, 263 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,579 Speaker 3: she's meant to be the librarian friend of his. 264 00:13:59,620 --> 00:14:02,459 Speaker 2: Yes. But then some of those things are fantastical. They're 265 00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: his imaginings right in the movie. 266 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,670 Speaker 4: Yes, that was Tony's version of like just showing, you know, 267 00:14:09,730 --> 00:14:11,569 Speaker 4: in the film that he really was seeking this. 268 00:14:11,730 --> 00:14:14,510 Speaker 1: He was, his real dream was, and then, you know, 269 00:14:14,570 --> 00:14:16,290 Speaker 1: if you know, he started, he had. 270 00:14:16,210 --> 00:14:19,990 Speaker 4: A relationship with a partner when he went to jail. 271 00:14:20,590 --> 00:14:24,850 Speaker 4: So he actually had, he dated while he was in jail. Ironically, 272 00:14:24,910 --> 00:14:29,990 Speaker 4: this act of his, you know, brought national attention to him. 273 00:14:30,090 --> 00:14:32,130 Speaker 4: And some woman said, I actually respect what you're trying 274 00:14:32,190 --> 00:14:34,150 Speaker 4: to do. And they formed a relationship. 275 00:14:34,730 --> 00:14:34,990 Speaker 1: Right. 276 00:14:35,130 --> 00:14:37,270 Speaker 3: I mean, this is the fascinating thing about him. I 277 00:14:37,470 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 3: was going to bring this up later, but we're here now. 278 00:14:42,620 --> 00:14:47,580 Speaker 3: Did you find yourself, because I find myself, it's a 279 00:14:47,620 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 3: very uncomfortable place to... There are a lot of things 280 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,270 Speaker 3: that he was talking about and fearful of and trying 281 00:14:56,290 --> 00:14:59,390 Speaker 3: to make people understand that I happen. 282 00:14:59,110 --> 00:15:01,390 Speaker 2: To agree with. But of course. 283 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,940 Speaker 3: the extreme nature to which he took those ideas and 284 00:15:06,180 --> 00:15:11,740 Speaker 3: is obviously wrong. But how do you, how did, did 285 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 3: you find yourself at moments being like, we should have 286 00:15:14,540 --> 00:15:15,410 Speaker 3: listened to this guy? 287 00:15:16,170 --> 00:15:20,510 Speaker 1: I had a worse time than that because I was, 288 00:15:20,630 --> 00:15:21,370 Speaker 1: I was playing him. 289 00:15:21,410 --> 00:15:25,430 Speaker 4: I had a more conflicting stuff than you because, you know, 290 00:15:25,450 --> 00:15:30,700 Speaker 4: you start, I started with, look, he's, he definitely, he's. 291 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: Got a good argument. Like, and already at that time, 292 00:15:32,780 --> 00:15:32,980 Speaker 1: when we. 293 00:15:32,980 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 4: Were working on the movie, the mainstream opinion was turning 294 00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:37,740 Speaker 4: into like, this guy was right about most of what 295 00:15:37,780 --> 00:15:40,370 Speaker 4: he wrote in his manifesto. Like that wasn't, that wasn't 296 00:15:40,390 --> 00:15:43,690 Speaker 4: a politically incorrect view or anything. It was like, well, but, 297 00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:46,130 Speaker 4: but exactly as you said, but you know, he was 298 00:15:46,170 --> 00:15:47,630 Speaker 4: very smart. He knew what he was doing, but he 299 00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:48,910 Speaker 4: went about it the wrong way. 300 00:15:49,090 --> 00:15:51,860 Speaker 1: Obviously, you know, he didn't know what he was doing there, 301 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,820 Speaker 1: but he knew what he was doing about the other stuff. And, 302 00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:57,030 Speaker 1: I was like, and that's how I went in. 303 00:15:57,180 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 4: I was like, okay, you know, and then segueing back 304 00:16:01,740 --> 00:16:03,700 Speaker 4: into my thing of how do you deal with someone 305 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 4: who's a lot smarter than you? There I was going, Ted, 306 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,980 Speaker 4: you know, if only you had just, you know, started 307 00:16:12,020 --> 00:16:14,250 Speaker 4: a little political party or gone to talk to people, 308 00:16:14,260 --> 00:16:16,230 Speaker 4: because he spoke about that in his records. He's like, 309 00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:18,210 Speaker 4: I thought I'm either going to, you know, fight the 310 00:16:18,230 --> 00:16:20,860 Speaker 4: system or I'm going to start a movement. I'm going 311 00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 4: to try to start a revolution. And he was the 312 00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:26,260 Speaker 4: kind of speaker that actually probably could have led people ironically. 313 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 4: So he's not the normal serial killer loner. He didn't, 314 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 4: he lived alone. He was a complete loner, but then 315 00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:35,220 Speaker 4: there was absolutely an aspect of his personality that if 316 00:16:35,260 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 4: you'd given him the pedestal and said, you can be 317 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,940 Speaker 4: the leader of this revolutionary environmental group, he would have 318 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 4: taken that up. You know, that was his other option. 319 00:16:43,700 --> 00:16:46,260 Speaker 4: And he was considered, he considered those. And so as 320 00:16:46,330 --> 00:16:47,470 Speaker 4: I'm learning this, I'm like, ah. 321 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: Ted, you know, why don't you go for that version? 322 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: And then as he keeps. 323 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:55,650 Speaker 4: Going, his whole thing was the violence is the point. 324 00:16:57,690 --> 00:17:01,430 Speaker 4: And this is the non-PC part. This is the tough 325 00:17:01,490 --> 00:17:02,430 Speaker 4: part to wrestle with. 326 00:17:02,850 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: This is where everybody at our sort of average IQ 327 00:17:07,260 --> 00:17:09,820 Speaker 1: levels are going like, yes, but you shouldn't kill. And 328 00:17:09,859 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: he's going, the only way that will actually have. 329 00:17:13,540 --> 00:17:16,910 Speaker 4: Any impact on this technological system is that people would 330 00:17:16,950 --> 00:17:19,980 Speaker 4: have to become violent because it is the. 331 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,659 Speaker 1: One thing that the technological system cannot do. And I 332 00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:27,340 Speaker 1: was like, wait, what? Say that again. I'm like, just 333 00:17:27,380 --> 00:17:27,700 Speaker 1: say that. 334 00:17:27,980 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 4: He's like, he's like the technological system needs to make 335 00:17:32,140 --> 00:17:33,419 Speaker 4: you into a sheep. 336 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:34,859 Speaker 1: It needs to make you. 337 00:17:34,820 --> 00:17:39,790 Speaker 4: Nonviolent because as long as you are nonviolent, you can, 338 00:17:40,660 --> 00:17:43,950 Speaker 4: It can control you. The only thing it cannot control 339 00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:47,369 Speaker 4: is mammalian violence. So, like, gangs are a problem. He 340 00:17:47,390 --> 00:17:49,210 Speaker 4: goes into all of this. This is why society can't 341 00:17:49,230 --> 00:17:51,750 Speaker 4: deal with gangs. The main thing they need to do 342 00:17:52,350 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 4: is get you to be like, we understand you're unhappy 343 00:17:54,410 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 4: about this, sir, but, you know, you're only going to 344 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,540 Speaker 4: get this much money in Social Security. 345 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: Please be nice. Or whatever it is. 346 00:18:00,859 --> 00:18:03,659 Speaker 4: It's like, we understand you're frustrated at the bank, you know, 347 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,050 Speaker 4: and you don't have a jet, but. 348 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,780 Speaker 1: you know, this is how life is going to work 349 00:18:07,820 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: for you. 350 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,220 Speaker 4: And everybody just be peaceful and be calm. So he 351 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 4: makes this leap and then he struggles. And we also 352 00:18:14,780 --> 00:18:15,580 Speaker 4: don't show this in the movie. 353 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,700 Speaker 1: He struggles to actually commit violent acts because he has 354 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,260 Speaker 1: been so well brought up, quote unquote. 355 00:18:22,830 --> 00:18:27,990 Speaker 4: With being a middle American, well-behaved, typical family. You don't 356 00:18:28,050 --> 00:18:29,090 Speaker 4: scratch someone's car. 357 00:18:29,130 --> 00:18:29,430 Speaker 1: You don't. 358 00:18:29,530 --> 00:18:32,629 Speaker 4: And he talks about that, like the difficulty of, in 359 00:18:32,670 --> 00:18:36,740 Speaker 4: his diaries, he talks, he reflects about the difficulty that 360 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,530 Speaker 4: it took to vandalize somebody's property and then talking about, well, 361 00:18:40,670 --> 00:18:41,970 Speaker 4: afterwards I felt actually. 362 00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:42,830 Speaker 1: Very satisfied, you know? 363 00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:46,430 Speaker 4: So there's this kind of like emotional component and there's 364 00:18:46,450 --> 00:18:50,030 Speaker 4: a rational component on top. So it was, it was, 365 00:18:50,130 --> 00:18:53,540 Speaker 4: it was extremely, it was extremely confronting to answer that, 366 00:18:53,650 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 4: that question of really looking and being, you know, I 367 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 4: guess judgmental of him in the sense of saying, oh, 368 00:18:59,580 --> 00:19:01,540 Speaker 4: you were smart, but you weren't that smart. And then 369 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,110 Speaker 4: reading his article and he kind of goes, And he talks, 370 00:19:05,230 --> 00:19:06,869 Speaker 4: you know, I think we had it in the trailer 371 00:19:06,930 --> 00:19:08,710 Speaker 4: even where he says, you know, a lot of people 372 00:19:08,750 --> 00:19:10,850 Speaker 4: say violence isn't the way to solve problems. And he's like, 373 00:19:10,930 --> 00:19:13,870 Speaker 4: as a matter of fact, you know, it's often very effective. 374 00:19:13,950 --> 00:19:17,470 Speaker 4: And history shows that that's often what happens. And so 375 00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:23,470 Speaker 4: I guess he's living at that reality where he's like, 376 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 4: this is actually, there's a layer of the world that 377 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,220 Speaker 4: is totally run by whoever's got the biggest guns. 378 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: I mean, you can just turn on the news and 379 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: you see that now. 380 00:19:31,570 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 4: So it's like we have this veneer of civility, but 381 00:19:34,859 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 4: actually who's got the biggest gun is actually controlling everything. 382 00:19:38,060 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 4: And he's talking at that level and he's saying the 383 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,390 Speaker 4: technological system is never going to fold and it's just 384 00:19:44,410 --> 00:19:47,290 Speaker 4: going to increasingly turn you into a domesticated. 385 00:19:46,670 --> 00:19:49,990 Speaker 1: Cow and you're not going to be able to do it. 386 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: a deal with it. You can't talk nicely to it. 387 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,030 Speaker 4: It's not going to work to say, I'm only going 388 00:19:54,050 --> 00:19:55,550 Speaker 4: to use my phone for two hours a day. 389 00:19:56,450 --> 00:19:57,210 Speaker 1: It's going to get you. 390 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,739 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm literally feeling nauseous as you're saying these things. 391 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I mean, it's disturbing. It's not what you 392 00:20:03,460 --> 00:20:04,060 Speaker 1: were expecting. 393 00:20:04,580 --> 00:20:08,380 Speaker 3: But it's very, you know, this is very timely. It's 394 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,060 Speaker 3: important to what is happening right now. I mean, we 395 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,260 Speaker 3: don't even need to talk about AI and all of 396 00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 3: these other things that there are these pretty clear and 397 00:20:17,460 --> 00:20:22,460 Speaker 3: deep parallels. And there's a fascinating contradiction with him this 398 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,290 Speaker 3: so far. This is a man who he deliberately removes 399 00:20:26,330 --> 00:20:30,910 Speaker 3: himself from society, but he also seems so desperate for 400 00:20:30,950 --> 00:20:34,869 Speaker 3: human connection. Did you come to believe that Ted actually 401 00:20:35,030 --> 00:20:36,149 Speaker 3: wanted to be alone? 402 00:20:36,690 --> 00:20:39,470 Speaker 4: He wanted to be alone with a woman. So he 403 00:20:39,550 --> 00:20:43,770 Speaker 4: found most people were sort of idiots. He wanted to be, 404 00:20:43,890 --> 00:20:46,369 Speaker 4: but he desperately would have liked to be, or he 405 00:20:46,410 --> 00:20:49,149 Speaker 4: would have liked to live. He was a big fan 406 00:20:49,390 --> 00:20:54,950 Speaker 4: of indigenous American tribes, native American Indian tribes. He loved 407 00:20:55,090 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 4: that hunter-gatherer mindset. His whole way of thinking was, and 408 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,220 Speaker 4: this is quite a popular idea, I had been interested 409 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 4: in this before I came across the project, about how 410 00:21:06,540 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 4: I'd been interested in writers like Desmond Morris, who wrote 411 00:21:08,820 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 4: The Human Zoo in the 70s, and was talking about 412 00:21:13,150 --> 00:21:17,460 Speaker 4: how Basically, society, technology. 413 00:21:16,780 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 1: Has developed faster than human biology. 414 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,340 Speaker 4: And we're designed, so it's this theory, as you might 415 00:21:21,380 --> 00:21:23,590 Speaker 4: have heard of, there's lots of versions of them. You know, 416 00:21:23,609 --> 00:21:25,449 Speaker 4: we're supposed to be living in the wild with tribes 417 00:21:25,490 --> 00:21:28,149 Speaker 4: of 75 to 150 people. 418 00:21:28,530 --> 00:21:29,410 Speaker 1: We knew everybody. 419 00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:32,570 Speaker 4: We did something every day that helped everybody stay alive. 420 00:21:33,230 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 4: That was human satisfaction. Human happiness biologically was I did 421 00:21:39,540 --> 00:21:42,180 Speaker 4: something every day to keep me and my tribe alive. 422 00:21:43,070 --> 00:21:46,129 Speaker 4: He was very much in line with all of those 423 00:21:46,210 --> 00:21:49,669 Speaker 4: types of thinking. So, I mean, in all this, obviously, 424 00:21:49,750 --> 00:21:52,169 Speaker 4: as technology is going up, the suicide rate goes up. 425 00:21:52,390 --> 00:21:54,250 Speaker 4: You know, there's a lot of evidence to show that 426 00:21:54,290 --> 00:21:57,470 Speaker 4: this is correct. The human brain is malleable and adaptable, 427 00:21:57,510 --> 00:22:01,530 Speaker 4: but it doesn't particularly dig what's happening to it right now. 428 00:22:02,990 --> 00:22:05,189 Speaker 4: It's probably going to freak out, if I don't know 429 00:22:05,230 --> 00:22:07,230 Speaker 4: if I'm allowed to swear in the podcast, but if 430 00:22:07,530 --> 00:22:10,369 Speaker 4: Elon's theory, for example, is right that, you know, no 431 00:22:10,430 --> 00:22:13,350 Speaker 4: one will need to work, or do anything in the 432 00:22:13,410 --> 00:22:16,450 Speaker 4: future because of AI, humans are going to struggle with that. 433 00:22:16,540 --> 00:22:18,580 Speaker 1: It's like, we don't care. You know, you can be 434 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: here and have fun. We don't care what you have 435 00:22:20,420 --> 00:22:22,419 Speaker 1: to offer. We don't need you. Oh, you sing. Oh, 436 00:22:22,460 --> 00:22:24,700 Speaker 1: that's sweet. But I'm listening to my AI singer. Oh, look, 437 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,100 Speaker 1: she sings, you know, like you can, you can build stuff. 438 00:22:28,140 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: It's fine. My robot builds it. It's cool. 439 00:22:30,250 --> 00:22:31,649 Speaker 4: We don't need you. Let's just go sit on the 440 00:22:31,690 --> 00:22:35,989 Speaker 4: beach guys. You know, it's like, go, go have another cappuccino. 441 00:22:36,050 --> 00:22:37,670 Speaker 4: You know, what are we going to do this morning? 442 00:22:37,690 --> 00:22:40,230 Speaker 4: Let's go do our nails. You know, let's go, go 443 00:22:40,250 --> 00:22:40,910 Speaker 4: to the gym guys. 444 00:22:40,930 --> 00:22:41,230 Speaker 1: Okay. 445 00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:46,070 Speaker 4: Like whatever, whatever it is. 446 00:22:46,750 --> 00:22:51,510 Speaker 1: So, yeah, I think there's this. So he would have 447 00:22:51,530 --> 00:22:54,220 Speaker 1: liked to live like that. So that was a long 448 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: answer to your question. 449 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,780 Speaker 4: He would have liked to live with 50 to 150 450 00:22:58,780 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 4: people in a tribe. 451 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:01,659 Speaker 1: And I think he would have liked to be the 452 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: leader of that tribe. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 453 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 3: So you filmed the movie, as we said, on the 454 00:23:20,140 --> 00:23:25,270 Speaker 3: actual Montana land where Ted's cabin once stood. And you 455 00:23:25,290 --> 00:23:28,030 Speaker 3: shot there over the course of different seasons, yes, and 456 00:23:28,070 --> 00:23:33,390 Speaker 3: spent significant time living in that environment. Did Montana itself 457 00:23:33,530 --> 00:23:36,550 Speaker 3: become part of your understanding of Ted? And what was 458 00:23:36,609 --> 00:23:38,570 Speaker 3: it like when you stood there for the first time? 459 00:23:38,970 --> 00:23:40,570 Speaker 1: It was deeply peaceful. 460 00:23:40,590 --> 00:23:44,190 Speaker 4: It takes you into the present moment again. 461 00:23:45,050 --> 00:23:48,270 Speaker 1: In an absolute way. I've always loved being in nature. 462 00:23:48,290 --> 00:23:52,889 Speaker 4: Uh, and this film we shot in a way that 463 00:23:53,590 --> 00:23:57,419 Speaker 4: we had a small crew and a way that allowed 464 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:02,020 Speaker 4: me to basically while I was filming sort of live 465 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 4: mostly like I was him during the day. So at 466 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,740 Speaker 4: the end of a take, the guys would just come 467 00:24:07,780 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 4: in and go like, okay, Ted, we're just going to 468 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 4: set up here. 469 00:24:09,940 --> 00:24:11,940 Speaker 1: And I would just wander off. I wouldn't speak. 470 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,179 Speaker 4: I would just kind of wander off and I'd go 471 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 4: and sit. I had a little tent if I needed it. 472 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 4: I thought I'd just go sit by a stream while 473 00:24:17,460 --> 00:24:19,020 Speaker 4: I was setting up the next thing for an hour. 474 00:24:19,700 --> 00:24:21,460 Speaker 4: And then I would just sit there by myself, just. 475 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,149 Speaker 1: Watching the stream and like watching butterflies and watching the 476 00:24:24,190 --> 00:24:27,010 Speaker 1: grass move. And then someone would come and go, Ted, 477 00:24:27,030 --> 00:24:28,490 Speaker 1: we ready for you? And then I would just walk 478 00:24:28,530 --> 00:24:31,730 Speaker 1: back to the thing. It's the only time I've ever 479 00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 1: been called by my character name. I wasn't like methoding. 480 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: I wasn't like, you have to call me Ted. 481 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 4: I wasn't into the whole thing. It happened sort of 482 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 4: organically because it was very serious. It was very in 483 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,260 Speaker 4: the moment and people would just be sort of, it 484 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:46,620 Speaker 4: was quite a reverence happening. 485 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:47,419 Speaker 1: We were just kind of. 486 00:24:47,380 --> 00:24:49,649 Speaker 4: Like, And people were sort of gave me a bit 487 00:24:49,690 --> 00:24:51,510 Speaker 4: of a wide berth most of the time until the. 488 00:24:51,450 --> 00:24:52,450 Speaker 1: End of the day. Wow. 489 00:24:52,570 --> 00:24:54,690 Speaker 3: I mean, so for people who are listening that don't 490 00:24:54,710 --> 00:24:57,070 Speaker 3: understand what a film set is like, it is not 491 00:24:57,130 --> 00:24:57,530 Speaker 3: like that. 492 00:24:58,450 --> 00:25:01,340 Speaker 2: There's a lot of people. There is a lot of movement. 493 00:25:01,380 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 2: There are lights. 494 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,500 Speaker 3: People are like picking at you and telling you where 495 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 3: to stand. And then you're like, there is just a 496 00:25:06,859 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 3: lot that is going on. So that is pretty extraordinary. 497 00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. 498 00:25:10,940 --> 00:25:13,330 Speaker 4: And you're retreating on a normal set to a trailer. 499 00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:16,330 Speaker 4: You've got your condiments. You've got everything. You're getting snacks. 500 00:25:16,350 --> 00:25:18,750 Speaker 1: People are serving you. You're doing what you're doing. whatever 501 00:25:19,010 --> 00:25:24,609 Speaker 1: it's you, you treat it way too nicely. But, but yeah. 502 00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:28,090 Speaker 1: And the amazing thing was I, I would start to, 503 00:25:28,510 --> 00:25:32,330 Speaker 1: I spent so much time quietly in the environment that 504 00:25:32,470 --> 00:25:36,250 Speaker 1: I genuinely would get annoyed when I heard a plane 505 00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:38,629 Speaker 1: come over or something. It actually started to, I was 506 00:25:38,850 --> 00:25:41,109 Speaker 1: living in that space so much, especially when we did 507 00:25:41,130 --> 00:25:43,629 Speaker 1: some of the hiking stuff and you would just be 508 00:25:43,670 --> 00:25:44,450 Speaker 1: in this absolute bliss. 509 00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:46,750 Speaker 4: And then you just hear this like, Oh, And it 510 00:25:46,790 --> 00:25:48,889 Speaker 4: was weird. I was like, wow, this is, I'm really, 511 00:25:48,910 --> 00:25:51,130 Speaker 4: this is getting a little method. My friends would tease 512 00:25:51,170 --> 00:25:52,710 Speaker 4: me and be like, please don't mail anything. 513 00:25:52,790 --> 00:25:54,450 Speaker 1: I'd be like, don't worry. I'm fine. 514 00:25:54,890 --> 00:25:58,010 Speaker 3: I was honestly, my next question was going to be, 515 00:25:58,030 --> 00:26:00,379 Speaker 3: did it, you know, that was literally going to be 516 00:26:00,390 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 3: my question. Did you start to understand on a visceral 517 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,500 Speaker 3: level why those intrusions enraged him so much? 518 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: I really did. 519 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 4: And I, the thing is I had one point of, difference. 520 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 4: And I wrote to Ted, he never wrote. 521 00:26:15,460 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: Back because I knew he wouldn't, you know, before the movie, 522 00:26:17,820 --> 00:26:19,700 Speaker 1: I had sort of already researched him enough to know 523 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: the odds of him writing back as tiny or tiny. 524 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:28,090 Speaker 4: I had one question that I wanted to ask him 525 00:26:28,230 --> 00:26:31,830 Speaker 4: if I'd ever met him, which was, I buy everything 526 00:26:31,850 --> 00:26:35,090 Speaker 4: that you're saying in this. And I even understand it 527 00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 4: His main argument, for example, no, he actually didn't make 528 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 4: this argument. 529 00:26:39,180 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: I think I made this argument for him. That's right. See, 530 00:26:41,380 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: now I'm getting my arguments and he's confused. But when 531 00:26:43,859 --> 00:26:46,310 Speaker 1: I was talking to people, I said, listen, he killed people. 532 00:26:46,369 --> 00:26:50,450 Speaker 1: But in his mind and his actual writings, he was 533 00:26:50,910 --> 00:26:54,619 Speaker 1: absolutely going to war for the sake of the environment 534 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,889 Speaker 1: and humanity. He was prepared to kill for that reason. 535 00:26:58,430 --> 00:27:01,790 Speaker 4: Now people kill for gold, for another 20 feet of territory, 536 00:27:01,850 --> 00:27:04,050 Speaker 4: for a little bit of oil, for, you know, of 537 00:27:04,109 --> 00:27:07,850 Speaker 4: the reasons to go to war for the environment and 538 00:27:07,890 --> 00:27:09,270 Speaker 4: for the betterment of humanity. 539 00:27:09,290 --> 00:27:10,970 Speaker 1: So they're not enslaved by machines. 540 00:27:11,690 --> 00:27:14,980 Speaker 4: Isn't it, you know, any worse than I want the 541 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 4: gold or I want another feet of, you know, I 542 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,740 Speaker 4: want more territory because my ancestors had it or something. 543 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,510 Speaker 4: It's like, I was like, well, it didn't go crazy 544 00:27:22,530 --> 00:27:23,630 Speaker 4: and just rape and kill women. 545 00:27:23,650 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? There was an actual logic. 546 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:26,899 Speaker 1: It's like, no, no, I am going to war. I 547 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: have a cause. 548 00:27:27,540 --> 00:27:30,139 Speaker 4: I'm going to kill for that cause. Innocent people will die, 549 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,060 Speaker 4: but I'm prepared to do that. So I bought all 550 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 4: of that. I understood it. I personally, Sholto, couldn't understand 551 00:27:36,660 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 4: that because I was like, or couldn't get behind that. 552 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,070 Speaker 1: Firstly, because I'm not interested in sort of warfare. I'm 553 00:27:43,109 --> 00:27:43,629 Speaker 1: an artist. 554 00:27:43,869 --> 00:27:48,210 Speaker 4: I have the luxury of other men and women fighting 555 00:27:48,430 --> 00:27:52,619 Speaker 4: and protecting and keeping me safe. which I acknowledge, but I, 556 00:27:54,390 --> 00:27:57,310 Speaker 4: I felt the question I would have asked him would 557 00:27:57,350 --> 00:28:04,550 Speaker 4: have been, wasn't, isn't what's happening still evolution. So if 558 00:28:04,570 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 4: you take a homo sapien and a homo sapien makes 559 00:28:08,340 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 4: plastic bottles and throws, if I had a little ant 560 00:28:10,650 --> 00:28:13,780 Speaker 4: farm and the ants suddenly started making plastic Coke, metal 561 00:28:13,820 --> 00:28:15,700 Speaker 4: Coca-Cola bottles, I'd be like, Oh, look at this little 562 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:16,419 Speaker 4: nature reserve. 563 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: Like that's so weird. They throw their little Coke bottles out. 564 00:28:19,100 --> 00:28:22,290 Speaker 4: You know, it's, I don't think you can remove yourself 565 00:28:22,490 --> 00:28:25,709 Speaker 4: from evolution and say, that's my question that I would 566 00:28:25,730 --> 00:28:27,250 Speaker 4: have had to him. I'm like, are you saying that 567 00:28:27,290 --> 00:28:30,650 Speaker 4: the entire design of the universe, whatever has made evolution 568 00:28:30,750 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 4: happened is somehow gone wrong and we need to try 569 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,460 Speaker 4: and turn back its clock and humans should stay the 570 00:28:36,500 --> 00:28:39,330 Speaker 4: way they were, you know, And when they were hunter gatherers, 571 00:28:39,390 --> 00:28:44,170 Speaker 4: cause like it seems blatantly obvious, it seems manifestly obvious 572 00:28:44,230 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 4: that for example, AI, you know, knocking down trees and 573 00:28:47,860 --> 00:28:52,180 Speaker 4: building buildings is part of an evolution. It's just, unfortunately 574 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,940 Speaker 4: from a certain perspective, and I think it's somewhat unfortunate, 575 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,390 Speaker 4: but also it's nature. It's still nature. It's like you 576 00:28:58,410 --> 00:29:01,050 Speaker 4: build a steel building and you know, car it's still. 577 00:29:01,530 --> 00:29:04,890 Speaker 4: on this planet naturally happening? So that's what I would 578 00:29:04,910 --> 00:29:06,450 Speaker 4: have asked him. And that's why I could never get 579 00:29:06,510 --> 00:29:09,190 Speaker 4: behind the idea of why would you be fighting against 580 00:29:09,310 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 4: evolutionary impulses. 581 00:29:12,780 --> 00:29:14,180 Speaker 1: On the planet? I mean, I. 582 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,780 Speaker 2: Think he would have loved to answer that question. 583 00:29:19,140 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 3: I feel like he would have had a lot to 584 00:29:21,660 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 3: say about that. And it's also, you know, his whole 585 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 3: endeavor is really quite what struck me when you were 586 00:29:28,660 --> 00:29:31,940 Speaker 3: describing all of that is that it's really, it's quite 587 00:29:31,980 --> 00:29:39,850 Speaker 3: a selfless intention. I'm doing this for maybe a little megalomaniacal, 588 00:29:40,510 --> 00:29:44,950 Speaker 3: but still like selfless for other, you know, it isn't 589 00:29:45,070 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 3: really for his own satisfaction, it seems, you know? 590 00:29:49,300 --> 00:29:52,500 Speaker 1: There was both. I think the fair answer to that 591 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: is both. 592 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:58,140 Speaker 4: I think he, what took him over to the edge is, 593 00:29:58,890 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 4: was that he personally got angry. 594 00:30:02,340 --> 00:30:03,740 Speaker 1: So he often spoke about this. 595 00:30:03,860 --> 00:30:05,860 Speaker 4: If you had just left me alone, he went to 596 00:30:05,900 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 4: live on the edge of society in Montana. And really 597 00:30:09,340 --> 00:30:12,500 Speaker 4: what started the whole thing was that a logging company, 598 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 4: a mom and pop logging shop started up on a 599 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 4: nearby farm right by his land that he bought. So 600 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,300 Speaker 4: he would listen every day to me. Now this is 601 00:30:24,340 --> 00:30:27,950 Speaker 4: the worst. He's literally like, okay, I'm out of the system. 602 00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:30,350 Speaker 1: Just leave me alone. And so that's the first stuff 603 00:30:30,390 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: he starts vandalizing. And we went and met those people. 604 00:30:32,900 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: And he... So he gets. 605 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: Furious himself. 606 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 4: And then snowmobiles come, you see this in the movie, 607 00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:44,860 Speaker 4: snowmobiles come during the holidays and they snowmobiling around him 608 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 4: and he gets angry and he starts vandalizing the snowmobiles. 609 00:30:48,140 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 4: He just starts small. He starts personal angry, like you're 610 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,860 Speaker 4: coming to me. So he was an angry, frustrated man. 611 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,950 Speaker 4: There was definitely a, it wasn't, you know, a virtuous, 612 00:31:01,610 --> 00:31:03,850 Speaker 4: I've thought about this. I'm going to, as much as 613 00:31:03,890 --> 00:31:07,110 Speaker 4: he would try to present that, As part of it, underneath, 614 00:31:07,230 --> 00:31:09,590 Speaker 4: if you look at the diaries, he was an angry 615 00:31:09,650 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 4: man and he lashed out, firstly at individuals, and then 616 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 4: he thought, well, I'm going to make this a bigger cause. 617 00:31:16,220 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 4: I might as well actually devote myself to this. And 618 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,940 Speaker 4: all of those bigger arguments of I'm doing it for society, 619 00:31:21,980 --> 00:31:24,420 Speaker 4: et cetera, all then come into play. But the seed 620 00:31:25,020 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 4: is he's personally angry. If he'd just been in quiet 621 00:31:27,340 --> 00:31:29,020 Speaker 4: and he'd had a girlfriend, I don't think we would 622 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 4: be talking about this today. 623 00:31:30,620 --> 00:31:33,300 Speaker 1: Right, right. That's my personal opinion. 624 00:31:34,390 --> 00:31:38,530 Speaker 3: Did meeting the people who actually interacted with him change 625 00:31:38,650 --> 00:31:41,450 Speaker 3: anything about the performance that you gave? 626 00:31:41,890 --> 00:31:45,410 Speaker 4: Only meeting the librarian, only meeting the librarian, because the 627 00:31:45,490 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 4: others did describe him pretty much as the cliched version 628 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:51,410 Speaker 4: of he was quiet. 629 00:31:51,930 --> 00:31:56,540 Speaker 1: He was he didn't speak much and he was antisocial. 630 00:31:57,140 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 4: The librarian's whole description of him was like you're describing a. 631 00:32:00,740 --> 00:32:02,219 Speaker 1: Completely different person. 632 00:32:02,690 --> 00:32:07,190 Speaker 4: He would tutor her child because he was super bright. 633 00:32:07,230 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 4: He would offer to help the kids. He had just 634 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,100 Speaker 4: another whole side of his personality. And it seems that 635 00:32:13,380 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 4: if he trusted somebody. 636 00:32:14,500 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: He would reveal that. If he didn't, he would stay 637 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:18,260 Speaker 1: very closed off. 638 00:32:18,580 --> 00:32:18,860 Speaker 2: Right. 639 00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:22,270 Speaker 3: Not to sound too reductive, but that is pretty heartbreaking 640 00:32:22,570 --> 00:32:23,830 Speaker 3: when you think about it. 641 00:32:24,590 --> 00:32:25,030 Speaker 2: It's just. 642 00:32:25,730 --> 00:32:27,270 Speaker 1: It was incredibly heartbreaking. 643 00:32:27,310 --> 00:32:29,390 Speaker 4: And I, like I say, the part that's missing for 644 00:32:29,430 --> 00:32:31,830 Speaker 4: me and that, that was always a little bit painful 645 00:32:31,870 --> 00:32:34,990 Speaker 4: with the finished film was that, that those, all of 646 00:32:35,030 --> 00:32:38,030 Speaker 4: those scenes and we shot like most of them weren't 647 00:32:38,170 --> 00:32:40,150 Speaker 4: included in the film, you know, and even while we 648 00:32:40,170 --> 00:32:42,410 Speaker 4: were going, Tony was shooting these moments and we were 649 00:32:42,450 --> 00:32:44,270 Speaker 4: sending them back to investors and people. 650 00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:47,770 Speaker 1: And everyone was like, this is so moving. I did stuff, 651 00:32:47,790 --> 00:32:49,070 Speaker 1: you know, I was trying to pick up a girl 652 00:32:49,170 --> 00:32:51,950 Speaker 1: at a, at a, at a garage sale. 653 00:32:52,050 --> 00:32:54,350 Speaker 4: And, you know, he's trying to make conversation and he's trying, 654 00:32:54,410 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 4: it was, It was just brutal. But, yeah, it's definitely 655 00:33:00,540 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 4: sad at a certain level. It's obviously sad for, you know, 656 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 4: very much the families and the people that he killed. 657 00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:16,630 Speaker 1: Yes, yes. You know, you can't justify still, for me, like, 658 00:33:16,710 --> 00:33:18,250 Speaker 1: as I say, even as I think I'm one of 659 00:33:18,270 --> 00:33:21,100 Speaker 1: the people who would justify him the most, having played him, 660 00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:23,730 Speaker 1: having understood it, I still, like I said, my own 661 00:33:23,810 --> 00:33:27,510 Speaker 1: view of, like, you know, where are you going with this? Like, 662 00:33:27,570 --> 00:33:29,830 Speaker 1: why do you think you can stop evolution in its 663 00:33:29,950 --> 00:33:33,070 Speaker 1: tracks is what made me go like, I can't justify 664 00:33:33,090 --> 00:33:35,469 Speaker 1: what this guy's doing. If you could have convinced me 665 00:33:35,550 --> 00:33:39,470 Speaker 1: somehow that you could have saved us, it may well 666 00:33:39,550 --> 00:33:42,590 Speaker 1: be that we are going to become domesticated cows or 667 00:33:42,610 --> 00:33:45,550 Speaker 1: we're going to be, we're going to go extinct and 668 00:33:45,570 --> 00:33:48,690 Speaker 1: an artificial form of intelligence, what we call artificial comes out, 669 00:33:49,070 --> 00:33:50,690 Speaker 1: but that's nature in its own. 670 00:33:51,130 --> 00:33:55,290 Speaker 4: It used this species to make this thing. It's not 671 00:33:55,330 --> 00:33:58,950 Speaker 4: impossible that that's the case. I mean, I find that depressing, but. 672 00:34:13,340 --> 00:34:18,260 Speaker 3: Did doing this film and playing the Unabomber actually change 673 00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 3: the way you use technology? 674 00:34:20,530 --> 00:34:22,810 Speaker 1: I've always had a love-hate relationship with technology, which I 675 00:34:22,850 --> 00:34:25,169 Speaker 1: think lots of people have. And I think I just have, 676 00:34:25,850 --> 00:34:28,009 Speaker 1: I have that same love-hate relationship. 677 00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 4: I miss the fact that when I was shooting the film, 678 00:34:32,340 --> 00:34:34,330 Speaker 4: I used my phone the least that I've ever used it. 679 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,379 Speaker 4: But I would have to say, no, it ultimately didn't. 680 00:34:38,460 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 4: And that's Ted's whole point. It's like the technology has you. 681 00:34:42,010 --> 00:34:44,029 Speaker 4: It's almost, I mean, I think he would say the 682 00:34:44,050 --> 00:34:48,779 Speaker 4: other way around. Technology uses you. you know, and the 683 00:34:48,820 --> 00:34:54,620 Speaker 4: techno-industrial system uses you. And even at– there's obvious levels 684 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,950 Speaker 4: where that's happening. You're posting on Facebook. You're posting on TikTok. 685 00:34:58,430 --> 00:35:01,810 Speaker 4: The algorithm is using you. The corporation is using you. 686 00:35:01,910 --> 00:35:03,230 Speaker 4: You think you're getting the benefit. 687 00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:04,490 Speaker 1: Oh, look at me on TikTok. 688 00:35:04,530 --> 00:35:07,910 Speaker 4: Even if you've got lots of followers. But the corporation 689 00:35:08,010 --> 00:35:10,850 Speaker 4: has you. Like you don't have a say. You don't 690 00:35:10,950 --> 00:35:15,500 Speaker 4: get to– delete your account you don't get to go 691 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 4: like I'm not going to answer my phone you know 692 00:35:18,980 --> 00:35:22,299 Speaker 4: you serve the phone when the phone needs you you 693 00:35:22,410 --> 00:35:25,509 Speaker 4: answer that thing and it's like it's becoming increasingly like 694 00:35:25,550 --> 00:35:29,009 Speaker 4: that and it's a strange time I mean it's a 695 00:35:29,050 --> 00:35:32,009 Speaker 4: fascinating time to live in I you know we're getting 696 00:35:32,050 --> 00:35:32,589 Speaker 4: to see what. 697 00:35:32,510 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 3: Happens we sure are I mean if we're paying attention 698 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 3: at all Was there a moment in his writings where 699 00:35:41,860 --> 00:35:45,509 Speaker 3: you could see the line being crossed, like from a 700 00:35:45,530 --> 00:35:47,790 Speaker 3: man who's furious about what was happening around him to 701 00:35:47,850 --> 00:35:51,430 Speaker 3: someone who was willing to actually hurt and kill strangers? 702 00:35:51,890 --> 00:35:54,589 Speaker 1: Yeah, he writes about it. So he goes on a hike. 703 00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:55,969 Speaker 1: He used to hike. 704 00:35:56,610 --> 00:36:00,210 Speaker 4: He would spend hours hiking and often just for food 705 00:36:00,270 --> 00:36:01,810 Speaker 4: was the most common reason. 706 00:36:02,310 --> 00:36:04,169 Speaker 1: He, in his diaries, you see the. 707 00:36:04,090 --> 00:36:06,009 Speaker 4: Life of that, by the way, of a person like that. 708 00:36:06,250 --> 00:36:08,140 Speaker 4: I mean, it takes you seven hours to go get lunch. 709 00:36:08,580 --> 00:36:12,180 Speaker 1: It's amazing. And then obviously how satisfying that lunch is, 710 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,180 Speaker 1: that's totally different from the drive-thru. Yes. 711 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:20,219 Speaker 4: Anyway, so he goes on a hike and there's a 712 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,359 Speaker 4: trail that he likes to do. And the one time 713 00:36:22,410 --> 00:36:26,250 Speaker 4: he goes out there and he gets to a spring 714 00:36:26,969 --> 00:36:30,850 Speaker 4: that he would always stop and sit and drink at. 715 00:36:31,489 --> 00:36:34,530 Speaker 4: And the one day he goes, there's a road that's 716 00:36:34,590 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 4: been constructed by right by the spring or right through 717 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 4: this land that was like the most sacred place that 718 00:36:41,100 --> 00:36:44,430 Speaker 4: he used to go to and by his spring. So 719 00:36:44,469 --> 00:36:47,730 Speaker 4: he writes that, and this was his defining moment in 720 00:36:47,770 --> 00:36:50,630 Speaker 4: his diary, I went and I said a kind of 721 00:36:50,770 --> 00:36:54,550 Speaker 4: prayer to the spirit of the spring and I vowed 722 00:36:54,590 --> 00:36:57,430 Speaker 4: that I would take revenge for what was happening to 723 00:36:57,469 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 4: the planet. And that was his moment where he decided 724 00:37:02,580 --> 00:37:06,469 Speaker 4: I will start bombing, I will start attacking people. Before that, 725 00:37:06,530 --> 00:37:09,529 Speaker 4: he was just vandalizing stuff in his area. Then in 726 00:37:09,570 --> 00:37:13,950 Speaker 4: that moment, he decides he's going to defend the environment 727 00:37:14,070 --> 00:37:18,009 Speaker 4: and he's going to fight for the environment and he's 728 00:37:18,050 --> 00:37:21,110 Speaker 4: going to kill, if necessary, attack, you know, maim whatever 729 00:37:21,180 --> 00:37:23,939 Speaker 4: other people. So that was, that is clear. He makes 730 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,439 Speaker 4: a clear definitive decision at that time. 731 00:37:27,300 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: Wow. 732 00:37:31,380 --> 00:37:32,460 Speaker 2: It's very chilling. 733 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,800 Speaker 3: So after, uh, After all of this, reading thousands of 734 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,410 Speaker 3: pages of his thoughts and living on the land and 735 00:37:40,450 --> 00:37:43,270 Speaker 3: making this film and seeing the world through his eyes 736 00:37:43,330 --> 00:37:47,690 Speaker 3: for months, what do you think the rest of us 737 00:37:47,989 --> 00:37:51,509 Speaker 3: still fundamentally misunderstand about Ted Kaczynski? 738 00:37:52,010 --> 00:37:54,210 Speaker 1: Probably some of those things I was touching on earlier, 739 00:37:54,310 --> 00:38:00,219 Speaker 1: that he was desperately seeking female affection and love and 740 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:01,819 Speaker 1: trying to work out how to get it and what 741 00:38:01,860 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: he was doing wrong. One of the reasons we can 742 00:38:04,540 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: talk about that. One of the reasons was that he 743 00:38:05,900 --> 00:38:08,900 Speaker 1: was too honest in how he would speak to women 744 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: early on, which was fascinating. 745 00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 4: He was, he was much more of a Renaissance man 746 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 4: in terms of his ability to make music, draw art, 747 00:38:21,180 --> 00:38:25,069 Speaker 4: high level art, write comedic satire. 748 00:38:26,030 --> 00:38:28,690 Speaker 1: And he was a funny guy to some people. They 749 00:38:28,770 --> 00:38:33,790 Speaker 1: really experienced him as very, very funny. Like, like hilariously fun. 750 00:38:33,830 --> 00:38:36,029 Speaker 4: Like my favorite thing about Ted is how much he 751 00:38:36,070 --> 00:38:37,890 Speaker 4: makes me laugh. When you go like, what are your 752 00:38:37,930 --> 00:38:40,510 Speaker 4: favorite things about Ted? Oh, it's how much we laugh 753 00:38:40,530 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 4: together and how funny he is like that. I think 754 00:38:43,219 --> 00:38:44,700 Speaker 4: the society doesn't know. 755 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 2: I mean, I certainly knew none of those things about him. 756 00:38:48,620 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 1: Yeah. 757 00:38:49,580 --> 00:38:49,900 Speaker 4: Yeah. 758 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:50,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. 759 00:38:50,820 --> 00:38:54,190 Speaker 4: And he, it was, it was another interesting part is 760 00:38:54,750 --> 00:38:57,910 Speaker 4: just a, just a interesting experience because, The other thing 761 00:38:57,969 --> 00:39:01,109 Speaker 4: I would have asked him, maybe I would have asked 762 00:39:01,170 --> 00:39:03,530 Speaker 4: one other question, but I know the answer to this. 763 00:39:05,180 --> 00:39:09,500 Speaker 4: He gets caught because there's a bomb under his bed. 764 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,790 Speaker 4: He literally left a bomb that he was making under 765 00:39:13,830 --> 00:39:17,530 Speaker 4: his bed. But they've been chasing him for 17 years. 766 00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:20,259 Speaker 1: And what he had been doing for years before that 767 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,060 Speaker 1: is he would hike about eight kilometers away from his 768 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: cabin into deep, thick bush. 769 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,009 Speaker 4: And he made another cabin. And that's where he had 770 00:39:28,090 --> 00:39:30,900 Speaker 4: all his bomb stuff. and he used gloves and he 771 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,259 Speaker 4: used everything. So if they come into his house, this 772 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,410 Speaker 4: is big ways back to my open opening comment of, 773 00:39:37,450 --> 00:39:41,109 Speaker 4: you know, you have these hyper intelligent people. If you 774 00:39:41,150 --> 00:39:44,350 Speaker 4: make one mistake, if you, if you, if you, you 775 00:39:44,390 --> 00:39:47,430 Speaker 4: become so sure that you are so smart, he becomes smart. 776 00:39:47,940 --> 00:39:50,740 Speaker 4: So sure that he's so much smarter than the dumb 777 00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:54,509 Speaker 4: FBI trying to catch him, that he becomes complacent and 778 00:39:54,550 --> 00:39:57,010 Speaker 4: he just leaves his bomb making stuff in his cabin. 779 00:39:57,050 --> 00:39:58,529 Speaker 4: Cause he's like, these guys are never going to get me. 780 00:39:59,390 --> 00:40:02,910 Speaker 4: His original plan was incredibly smart. So what would have 781 00:40:02,930 --> 00:40:05,049 Speaker 4: happened is they would have gone to his cabin, suspected him. 782 00:40:05,070 --> 00:40:06,490 Speaker 4: He would have gone, I don't know what you're talking 783 00:40:06,510 --> 00:40:07,230 Speaker 4: about officer. 784 00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:10,490 Speaker 1: If they'd even found the cabin, which they might never have, 785 00:40:10,510 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: but let's assume they do now. There's no trace of 786 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,240 Speaker 1: his prints or anything. There's no proof that he made 787 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:20,509 Speaker 1: that stuff. So he had developed, he'd burned every, after 788 00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:23,240 Speaker 1: he'd made it, he'd burn all the pieces. He was 789 00:40:23,570 --> 00:40:27,340 Speaker 1: unbelievably meticulous. He's painstakingly meticulous. 790 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,739 Speaker 4: His diaries have like every single component he uses in 791 00:40:30,780 --> 00:40:32,940 Speaker 4: a bomb, how you get rid of that so that 792 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 4: there's no trace. And he writes all of this in 793 00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:40,310 Speaker 4: a code. Like it's complicated. It is unbelievably detailed. He 794 00:40:40,350 --> 00:40:43,410 Speaker 4: was very, very detailed. He would always win competitions regularly. 795 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,780 Speaker 4: for like spotting spelling mistakes in something or whatever. 796 00:40:46,820 --> 00:40:51,210 Speaker 1: He had a ridiculous ability to focus on detail, but 797 00:40:51,230 --> 00:40:53,370 Speaker 1: he leaves the bomb under his bed, you know, and 798 00:40:53,530 --> 00:40:55,750 Speaker 1: it's that one thing where you, you thought you, you 799 00:40:55,790 --> 00:40:59,230 Speaker 1: got so smart that you could just, you know, just 800 00:40:59,370 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: make your bombs at home now. They're never going to 801 00:41:01,410 --> 00:41:03,359 Speaker 1: get me. So that was, you know, just a little, 802 00:41:03,420 --> 00:41:07,299 Speaker 1: a little interesting thing that I, that I noticed, you know, 803 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:07,700 Speaker 1: playing him. 804 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 2: Yes. 805 00:41:08,780 --> 00:41:08,850 Speaker 1: Yes. 806 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,100 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, this Charlton, this has been so fascinating. I, 807 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,140 Speaker 3: I just, I'm so thrilled that I got to speak 808 00:41:16,180 --> 00:41:20,029 Speaker 3: with you. And this movie, again, it's called Ted K. 809 00:41:20,140 --> 00:41:24,430 Speaker 3: It is streaming online and it's really, I always feel 810 00:41:24,469 --> 00:41:28,570 Speaker 3: strange saying things are beautiful when it's about something so, 811 00:41:28,890 --> 00:41:31,150 Speaker 3: you know, disturbing, but it truly is. 812 00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:35,200 Speaker 2: It's beautiful. And, and your work in it is beautiful. 813 00:41:35,260 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 2: So thank you so much for talking with me today. 814 00:41:38,489 --> 00:41:40,090 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. It's been a good chat. And 815 00:41:40,130 --> 00:41:42,450 Speaker 1: I think it's kind of like life, isn't it? 816 00:41:42,510 --> 00:41:46,250 Speaker 4: It's beautiful and horrific at the same time, this whole 817 00:41:46,350 --> 00:41:47,870 Speaker 4: human experience, you know? 818 00:41:48,230 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 2: That is correct. That is correct. We have to take 819 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:53,049 Speaker 2: all of it. 820 00:41:53,860 --> 00:41:54,100 Speaker 1: Yeah. 821 00:41:55,540 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 2: Well, I wish you the best. Thank you. I hope 822 00:41:57,620 --> 00:42:00,060 Speaker 2: we cross paths in person sometime. Me too.